Tig Notaro Is Treading Water

Tig Notaro is a comedian, actor, screenwriter, producer, and co-host of the podcast Handsome. This conversation explores Tig's legendary 2012 set—delivered days after her cancer diagnosis—and how loss became her greatest teacher. We discuss her wild upbringing, choosing presence over performance, the napkin-based writing process, what's going on in the comedy scene, and producing "Come See Me in the Good Light," the Sundance-winning doc about poet Andrea Gibson. Oh, and we bond over spinal fusion surgery recovery. Tig is great—and I really enjoyed our time together. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain👉🏼http://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll On: High-performance shoes & apparel crafted for comfort and style👉🏼https://www.on.com/richroll AG1: Get their best offer ever – Welcome Kit, D3+K2, Flavor Sampler, plus a FREE bonus gift ($126 in value!)⁠https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Pique: Get up to 20% OFF plus a FREE rechargeable frother and glass beaker with your first subscription👉🏼https://www.piquelife.com/richroll WHOOP: The all-new WHOOP 5.0 is here! Get your first month FREE👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Roka: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www. ROKA.com/RICHROLL Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Speaker 00

  I remember that night I went to a diner with my friends and we were just like, "Wow, that was a crazy show," you know, because I was up there talking about the death of my mother and having cancer and all of this stuff. "Good evening, hello, I have cancer, how are you?" And then people were like, "Oh, the story went viral overnight." And I was like, "What does that mean? What went viral?" There's so much in that set that people can relate to. Most people have lost a relationship and everyone's been affected by cancer, the loss of a parent. It was raw.

• 0:46Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. I got Tig on today, Tig Notaro, so you've got that to look forward to because she's great and we really had a great time together. But before that, how's it going? I mean, you know, fall is here, which is nice, but now we're back to it being dark out so early, which, I don't know about you, always lands pretty heavy for me. For whatever reason, it just seems to drain my energy and kind of makes me want to just hibernate and hide from the world, just when the specter of the holiday season starts

• 1:30Rich Roll?

  to rear up its head and lord over us, which always, for me, seems to kick up a little bit of anxiety because I feel like it just, it puts pressure on me, on all of us, to power ourselves up at a time of year when all I want to do really is power down and kind of seclude myself a little bit. But I do have some good news to share. I had my six-month check-in, checkup with my doc, my surgeon, and it's good news. It's a bit of a rebirth because... He was able to review some brand new scans on my spine.

• 2:13Rich Roll?

  And my fusion, I'm happy to report, is setting in nicely. There's no slippage in the L5 region. And so I got the all clear to get back to some light exercise and training. Nothing too crazy because I still can't do anything that compresses my spine. Like, for example, lifting weights above my head or flip turns or, of course, running. But I can return to the pool for some light swimming and to my indoors whiffed trainer to resume some spinning, which is such a huge relief because it means I can start doing a few of the things that actually make me feel like me.

• 2:55Rich Roll?

  And of course, start working off the extra 30 pounds that I put on over the last six months, which has been a bit of an embarrassing side effect of my surgery recovery having forced me to be more sedentary than I think I've been in my entire life. And there's still a long way to go. I actually won't know until at least May if I can return to 100% because it takes 12 to 18 months for the fusion to really set in. But right now, everything is currently heading in the right direction. Already I've built up a bit of momentum dialing in my nutrition and my fitness routine. In fact, I've already dropped about six pounds so far. So that's my big win for the week.

• 3:39Rich Roll?

  And if there's a lesson in all of this applicable to all of you guys, I suppose it's patience. I hear so many stories of back surgeries like mine not taking or going terribly wrong. And I suspect a big reason for that is because patients lack the patience to hold back from getting back to their normal movement routines, convincing themselves that they're Fine way too soon when they're actually not fine. And for me, it's helpful to always keep my eye on the long game, which is a game that requires a different kind of discipline than the kind that many athletes or many strivers rely upon to achieve their goals.

• 4:23Rich Roll?

  The discipline to do less than you know you can when life is calling you to do that, which is like a discomfort anybody who is ambitious will be much less comfortable with than the discomfort that they're used to, which is just pushing through things. But in order to play the long game well, there are times in life, like the time that I'm in right now, when the best way to advance your life forward is to let go of all of that, even when doing so threatens your identity and challenges your ego.

• 5:05Rich Roll?

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• 5:49Rich Roll?

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• 6:11Rich Roll?

  So Tig, Tig Notaro is a comedian. You probably know that because basically she's all over the place and kind of a big deal. Netflix specials, a New York Times bestselling memoir, even a Grammy nomination. But you might not know that she's also an actor. She stars in Star Trek, Starfleet Academy, as well as a screenwriter and a filmmaker. And I was surprised to discover just how many projects she has produced and is involved in. And she's in the studio today to talk about her wild upbringing, her deadpan comedic style, her creative process, her cancer diagnosis, and her plant-based lifestyle. We also get

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  into exactly what is going on in the comedy scene right now, including what she makes of comedians with podcasts becoming important platforms, not just for popular culture, but for culture war topics, and most importantly, politics at the highest level of power. You can check out Tig's podcast Handsome, which I guess is sort of like a queer, smartless, but smarter. And the new doc that she produced called Come See Me in the Good Light, which is about her friend, poet laureate Andrea Gibson, who passed away from cancer this past July. And that doc, which is pretty great, I had not watched it at the time that we had done our conversation, but I have since. It's fantastic. You should check it out.

• 7:36Rich Roll?

  And it's premiering on Apple TV this week on November 14.

• 7:43Rich Roll?

  We're rolling, Tig. You're here. You came here in a rainstorm.

• 7:47Speaker 00

  I did.

• 7:47Rich Roll?

  You drove a car here.

• 7:48Speaker 00

  I did.

• 7:49Rich Roll?

  You don't own a car, but you borrowed your wives.

• 7:52Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 7:53Rich Roll?

  I appreciate making the trek. I'm so delighted to talk to you today. And I wanted to start by saying, I'm dying to know. Like, I don't know if you have any awareness of this whatsoever, but it was probably, must have been...

• 8:11Rich Roll?

  At least two years ago, maybe three years ago, I was leaving Whole Foods in New York City and I was walking down the street, like in the Bowery, and I saw you coming towards me. And for a moment, we like locked eyes and I thought, oh, because I remembered that you had this whole plant-based certification thing. And I was like, maybe she might know who I am from like the weird subculture of like vegan people. And I was like, no, she doesn't know. And I was like, I'm not doing that. And we kind of like, and then we just passed each other and that was that.

• 8:47Speaker 00

  I don't recall that day, but I know who you are. That is why I drove my wife's car here in a rainstorm.

• 8:57Rich Roll?

  Well, we have Jason to thank, longtime employee number one engineer, because he went to your show and got called on by you.

• 9:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, we were chatting and I was like, and what do you do? He's like, oh, I'm a podcast producer. And I'm like, there's what 10 trillion podcasts? And I'm like, what do you, what podcast? He's like, Rich Roll. I'm like, okay, that's like the one podcast.

• 9:26Rich Roll?

  That's crazy for me. It's always surreal for me to hear stuff like that, but super cool.

• 9:31Speaker 00

  Well, even though you know who I am, it's, it goes both ways.

• 9:34Rich Roll?

  You're everywhere.

• 9:35Speaker 00

  I mean.

• 9:36Rich Roll?

  I was just saying before we started, like you have so many, it's impossible to keep track of like all the projects and specials and documentaries and, you know, everything that's going on with you, TV shows, Star Trek. I mean, it's wild. Like, I don't know how you do it all.

• 9:52Speaker 00

  Well, I've, you know, for years I've been doing interviews where people will ask about work-life balance. And I'm like, yeah, you know, I'm really getting on that work-life balance. I'm really applying it. And then one day I realized, no, I'm not. I'm just saying that. I'm just like.

• 10:15Speaker 00

  I'm saying what I wish I was doing. And then I was in Toronto filming this new season of the new, it hasn't aired yet, but it's Starfleet Academy is the new series starring Holly Hunter and Paul Giamatti is the villain.

• 10:31Rich Roll?

  Oh, really?

• 10:31Speaker 00

  Yeah. But I was like, I'm just living in Toronto for six months without my family. This is not work-life balance. And so I downgraded myself to just a recurring guest star. And I have my weekly podcast and now I'm going to tour in the new year. And I told my agent, I only want to go out a weekend a month. And so to me, that is work-life balance. That feels totally manageable to just go out to Toronto and film an episode, a few episodes a season and go out of town a weekend a month and stay home and podcast.

• 11:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you do the podcast from your house, right? Or wherever you are.

• 11:16Speaker 00

  I do, yeah. My house, I have a home office or if I'm in a hotel room. And then if all three hosts, because I co-host this with two other comedians, Fortune Feimster and May Martin. And if we're all in the same city, we will podcast at the HeadGum Studios, but it's very rare.

• 11:40Rich Roll?

  Almost never.

• 11:41Speaker 00

  It's hard because we're all touring comedians. We're all on TV shows and yeah, so we're busy.

• 11:48Rich Roll?

  And how's Handsome going?

• 11:51Speaker 00

  Handsome's going really well. It's exactly what I was looking for in a podcast because I love silliness. And I think because I've had a lot of Public challenges in my life, a lot health-related. I've kind of become, I accidentally became this person that people would, I don't even know how to say this without sounding like I'm patting myself on the back, but like, inspiring and all of that kind of stuff, and which is great.

• 12:30Speaker 00

  I love for people to be inspired in a positive way, but I also am a very deeply silly person, and I describe myself as 100% no-nonsense and then 100% all-nonsense. So handsome kind of allows me to get in there and be that.

• 12:54Rich Roll?

  Be silly, yeah. It's very fresh, you know? I like it a lot. It's cool. And it has such a distinct voice to it that's different. I mean, it's like a trope at this point, like every comedian has a podcast, but there's a very specific route that you're taking, the three of you together, that I think is important in the whole podcast-istan or whatever you want to call it. But with you specifically, I was joking with the team earlier, I was like, I'm kind of scared of Tig. Like, she's intimidating. Maybe I'm intimidated by comedians in general, and maybe it's just like the deadpan kind

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  of style of your comedy where it's like, maybe it's just, when you can't read where someone's coming from and they're very witty, you know? It makes me back on my heels a little bit.

• 13:48Speaker 00

  Well, please don't feel that way.

• 13:51Rich Roll?

  I feel very welcome with you right now.

• 13:54Speaker 00

  Yeah, am I as scary as you thought?

• 13:57Rich Roll?

  No, I don't think so. I don't know. It's just my internal monologue and my insecurity, most likely.

• 14:02Speaker 00

  Well, I love trying to find interesting ideas and people in the world of, I don't even know, like, do you consider yourself in the world of wellness?

• 14:16Rich Roll?

  I mean, that word is now sort of morphed in a way that makes me a little uneasy. I would have said absolutely a handful of years ago, and now I'm not so sure.

• 14:27Speaker 00

  Whatever you are, it feels like...

• 14:32Speaker 00

  There are people doing similar things that you do, but I've never felt so far that you splinter off from what I think or feel. And if you do, I feel open to hearing your perspective because you feel like a very reasonable person.

• 14:55Rich Roll?

  I try to be.

• 14:57Speaker 00

  I think you really are. You feel open. You feel like you have your ideas, but you just feel grounded and reasonable. And so it's just allowed me to follow what you're doing. And whereas other people, I'm like, where are you going?

• 15:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, we've all had that experience of, whether it's a podcast or somebody we follow online. And you're like, oh, I like this person. And then at some point, there's an inflection point and they diverge or go in a different direction. And that person always probably thinks that they're being, you know, consistent with their integrity or true to themselves or whatever. And part of it is like what we project on people that we don't know. But also, online, there's an incentive structure that has bent more and more people in strange directions that, at least for me, I've had that experience as well where I was like, oh, I thought this was one thing. Now I'm realizing it's another. Have I changed?

• 16:01Rich Roll?

  Have they changed? You know, I always say they changed, you know? They would probably think that they stayed the same because that's the way the human brain operates. But it has been fairly deranging over the last couple of years to see, I don't even know how you would put it, like the, how the incentive structure of like online creators has moved people in interesting directions.

• 16:30Speaker 00

  And what, how would you describe the incentive structure?

• 16:35Rich Roll?

  Well, I think due to algorithms, they make creative decisions about the content that they're creating based upon what they think that will serve the algorithm and result in the maximum amount of attention. And if you're making decisions based on that, you're going to, you know, host. Contrarians and people with outrageous takes or people that are gonna, you know, foment drama. And so you're not really making those decisions based upon like whatever core mission you're on, like, you know, like, what are we actually doing here? And like, what's important? And what am I trying to provide the audience with? You're just thinking about eyeballs.

• 17:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah.

• 17:18Rich Roll?

  Because the dollars follow the eyeballs.

• 17:21Speaker 00

  Yeah, they do.

• 17:22Rich Roll?

  So, you know, we don't have to name names or anything, but like, there's a lot of that right now. And so I think a lot about that. I'm like, you know, is this in service to the audience? Is this consistent with like my worldview, et cetera? And trying to not make decisions about that, which means you're not going to be necessarily competitive in the marketplace because the marketplace is demanding that of people right now. And, and that's kind of a drag, I think.

• 17:50Speaker 00

  It kind of reminds me of what I was just saying about trying to find, you know, balance in my life and my work. And it's so easy to get caught up in, oh, here's a job and here's this amount of money and here's, are you gonna do this and will you do this? And, and I think for a while, I was, I was, I know for a while, I was just doing it and I was following it. I wasn't doing anything that was against my belief system, but it was more so, I wasn't really being present with the reality of my life until I was sitting in Toronto for six months.

• 18:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 00

  And, and I really got in touch with it and really made a shift. And I know I really made a shift because when I would tell people that I, I chose to go from a series regular, like on, on the show guaranteed pay to just a recurring guest star, the response is a little, people were very surprised, you know? And, and you can say, oh, that's because you've had success or you have a savings account or whatever it is. Sure. But also, I need to still work. It's not like I can just-

• 19:13Rich Roll?

  And it's a consistent paycheck and a good paycheck.

• 19:16Speaker 00

  It is.

• 19:17Rich Roll?

  It's hard to say no to that.

• 19:18Speaker 00

  It is, but I realized the reality of what I want was not lining up with how I was living. And it's way more important to me to actually be at the doubleheader baseball game on Sundays with my sons and grocery store. I walk around our house singing this very uncatchy song. Well, maybe you'd be into it, but I'm like, "I'm a normal person doing normal things, living a normal life because I'm normal." But I love it. I love the routine of being with my family and the day to day and then my work being my work.

• 20:03Rich Roll?

  Well, kids will do that. But also, how much of that is a response or a reaction to pursuing a career for many, many, many years that is so uncertain? You know, like it's, you never know where the next paycheck is going to come from. Like, it's very hardscrabble. Now you're in a place where it doesn't have to be that way and there's a craving for a normal life, whereas somebody who has had a nine to five their whole life, they're like, "Oh, my God, what would it be like to just, you know, go to the comedy club every night?" And like, you know, like, that seems, you know, very appealing to that person.

• 20:43Speaker 00

  Oh, and that's where I was. I mean, I've been doing comedy for almost 30 years and I could not believe that I was making a living doing stand-up. And I was, I failed three grades, dropped out of high school. I was kind of aimless and I liked music, maybe wanted to work in the music business, did a little bit, but I was really bouncing around and had no stability and no focus in life. And the fact that I found some focus and success in comedy was wild.

• 21:23Speaker 00

  And I was so thankful and anxious to jump in there. But-

• 21:31Speaker 00

  Yeah, I think, obviously, life changes and priorities shift. And when I was really little, I was so into sports and art so passionately. And I moved on. And then I was, you know, I played guitar and drums. And I was so into that. And I moved on, you know? And then I found myself with this identity as a comedian. And then you think because you're so public and you've done it for so long that this is the thing. But then it shifts again.

• 22:13Speaker 00

  Because for a while, I was so confused that, like, why would I? I just want to be at home? And what's wrong with it? Am I deeply depressed? And then I was just taking my daily walk one day. And I was like, I remembered, I was into art. I was so focused on working on guitar playing and drums. And then it shifts. It's like, I'm not deeply depressed. I'm just in a different place.

• 22:40Rich Roll?

  Well, there's something to holding your identity loosely. You know, it's like, well, I'm a comedian, and this is what I do. And if you're holding on too tightly to that, then you perhaps miss out on other ways of finding happiness and fulfillment.

• 22:55Speaker 00

  And that's what I feel so thankful, that I can still be a comedian and put on my space suit and go.

• 23:02Rich Roll?

  I know. Did you ever dream you would be on Star Trek?

• 23:05Speaker 00

  Oh, my God.

• 23:05Rich Roll?

  That's a whole thing.

• 23:07Speaker 00

  It is a whole thing.

• 23:08Rich Roll?

  It's a whole world that you're... It's not like being on a normal TV show, right? Like, it comes with a whole universe of expectations and rabid fans.

• 23:16Speaker 00

  Yeah. My brother and I were very into the original series when we were little and had the action figures.

• 23:22Rich Roll?

  I went to the conventions when I was a little kid.

• 23:24Speaker 00

  OK, now.

• 23:25Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 23:26Speaker 00

  OK, now we've splintered.

• 23:29Speaker 00

  Finally, I found the splinter.

• 23:31Rich Roll?

  I just lost a loyal podcast fan.

• 23:35Speaker 00

  No, I.

• 23:36Rich Roll?

  Who's on one of the shows.

• 23:38Speaker 00

  No, the people, the fans are so, yeah, so devoted and they're so kind. It is wild.

• 23:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Speaker 00

  How earnest and kind and passionate these people are.

• 23:54Rich Roll?

  You have to go to like the sort of Comic Con events where you sign autographs and stuff like that.

• 24:00Speaker 00

  I don't have to.

• 24:00Rich Roll?

  People dress up.

• 24:01Speaker 00

  I was, yes, I've been to Comic Con, I hosted the Star Trek panel when, this is my second Star Trek series.

• 24:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 24:11Speaker 00

  The first one was Star Trek Discovery. And when I was on that series, I hosted the Star Trek panel at Comic Con in San Diego. And then when that show ended, my character just jumped over to Starfleet Academy, which hasn't aired yet. It airs in January of 2026. But, um, yeah, I didn't imagine I would end up, my friend Alex Kurtzman, who runs the whole Star Trek universe.

• 24:39Rich Roll?

  Orsi too. They did Alias.

• 24:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, they did Alias, they did Mission Impossible, like.

• 24:46Rich Roll?

  Right, JJ Aroldt's stuff.

• 24:48Speaker 00

  Transformers, so many things. Bob sadly passed away in February of this year, but I had known Bob and Alex from when I first moved to LA and I needed a job, I was a terrible receptionist at Sam Raimi's company, the director. And he was the executive producer of Xena and Hercules and all these different TV shows. And, but anyway, Alex and I have remained friends and he brought me in to talk to me about doing a part on Star Trek Discovery. And I honestly thought it would be an episode or two.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  And I was like, yeah, great. You know, people say, we'd love to have you as much as we can. And it's like, yeah, sure.

• 25:41Speaker 00

  Even though he was a friend, I was still like. Probably be in and out quickly. And then he kept having me back. And now I'm going on my second series. So, no, I didn't see it coming, but I am proud to be a part of that world. Because it is, it's just, you know, they try to do good with what they're, the storytelling. And it's a really nice crew and cast. It just feels good.

• 26:11Rich Roll?

  Well, in a different age, it would have been shot in Los Angeles. And you would have been able to do it, but that's not the Hollywood of today.

• 26:20Speaker 00

  No, it's not. Yeah, you have to go to London, Toronto, Vancouver, Atlanta, Austin. I mean, they're all great places, but.

• 26:30Rich Roll?

  So I want to understand the origin story here. You're this kid growing up in Mississippi in, like, it's kind of a small town, right? Like, right on the water.

• 26:42Speaker 00

  I was born in Jackson. And then we moved down to Pas Christian, which is, it's two words, pas and Christian, which is the Cajun pronunciation for Christian.

• 26:53Rich Roll?

  It's near, like, Biloxi. It's not that far from New Orleans, right?

• 26:57Speaker 00

  Without traffic, it's about an hour east from New Orleans.

• 27:02Rich Roll?

  And it seems like you, I mean, first of all, seventh grade was the last time you went to school.

• 27:09Speaker 00

  The last year that I graduated. But I also lived in Texas. We moved from Mississippi to Texas. And Texas is where I dropped. I failed eighth grade twice. I failed it again, but they just moved me up to ninth grade, just so I didn't throw myself off of something. And then I get to ninth grade and I fail that.

• 27:31Rich Roll?

  Was that because you just couldn't focus? Or what was going on?

• 27:36Speaker 00

  I couldn't focus. I had a lot going on at home. It was just a circus. It was an absolute circus.

• 27:43Rich Roll?

  Well, your mom sounds like a complete character.

• 27:46Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 27:47Rich Roll?

  I mean, I even, I even like wrote on your website, in your bio, like you say, Tig, affectionately named by her brother as a child, was born in Jackson, Mississippi, and was raised by her single mother in past Christian Mississippi. During hot summer days, her artistic and free spirited mother would feed the children all three meals at once, then hose down their diapered bodies in high chairs to cut back on cooking and cleaning, leaving more time for her to paint donkeys on the outside of their house. I mean,

• 28:17Speaker 00

  Was that not your?

• 28:18Rich Roll?

  No, that was not my, that was not my childhood.

• 28:21Speaker 00

  That was very much mine. Yeah, my mother was an artist and the outside of our house was her canvas and she, you know, for our birthday party, she truly painted a donkey so we could play Pin the Tail on the Donkey. And, you know, she was doing her best, but she didn't have much, she just was a very wild, free thinking, free spirited artist that raised me with this core belief that if anybody has a problem with me, they can go to hell. And that's what she told me my whole childhood, tell them to go to hell.

• 29:04Rich Roll?

  And a little bit of chaos, too.

• 29:06Speaker 00

  A lot, a lot of chaos.

• 29:08Rich Roll?

  For a young person, maybe, you know, made home feel a little destabilizing.

• 29:15Speaker 00

  For sure. I mean, my, my parents split when I was six months and so my stepfather came along and he had stability, but he traveled a lot. So we moved out of the house with donkeys on the wall. But they needed each other, my stepfather, my mother.

• 29:47Rich Roll?

  Because he grounded her?

• 29:49Speaker 00

  He grounded her, literally. He would get grounded because, you know, she would sometimes put us to bed and go out for the night. But anyway, yeah.

• 30:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, it was that kind of environment. But also, she would pull him out of his shell. He was very stoic.

• 30:11Rich Roll?

  And wasn't quite able to see you for you.

• 30:17Speaker 00

  No, he did finally. And it was a really beautiful, touching moment. After my mother's funeral.

• 30:28Speaker 00

  We were leaving Mississippi and, I mean, this guy. We were aliens to each other. He was more patient, I think, with my mother because he was married to her. But he just, and my brother was playing sports and doing well in school. And I was just over here smoking and failing and riding a skateboard. And, you know, listening to Van Halen and, you know, like, he didn't even know what to do with me. And, um, and so when we were driving away from my mother's funeral. He, he was, he said that he wanted to apologize to me for something.

• 31:09Speaker 00

  And, and that in itself was like, what could that possibly be? And he apologized for years before he had told me that my career was a waste of my time and my intelligence. And it was devastating because I, I had pride in having gotten through my childhood and all of my failures. And then I was making not just a living, but a good living for myself as a comedian. And it was, even though I hadn't fully broken through at that point, it was 2012. I was, I had a great life.

• 31:52Rich Roll?

  Sure. I mean, by 2012, you're, you know, you're a well-known, established comic.

• 31:57Speaker 00

  I was a headlining comedian.

• 31:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, there's plenty of evidence that you're, you know, out there killing it.

• 32:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:03Rich Roll?

  And he couldn't give it up.

• 32:04Speaker 00

  Yeah, he still encouraged me to go to business school. Or he, he said, I always thought you'd make a good attorney. And, and I said to him.

• 32:16Speaker 00

  I'm saying, I am so happy. I've found happiness and direction and I'm making a really good living. And I said, you're telling me you think I should leave that and go to business school? And he said, absolutely.

• 32:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:35Speaker 00

  And so that's what he apologized for. And he said, I realize now, and he got emotional, which I had never seen the robot cry. And, um, and he said, you know, I was projecting onto you what I thought your life should be based on what I did or what, what I was told. And, and he said, and I never really understood you. And I just want to tell you that I know now that, um, it's not the child's responsibility to teach the parent who they are. It's the parent's responsibility to learn who their child is. And I didn't do that. And this is all through tears.

• 33:20Speaker 00

  And I'm like, oh my gosh, we just buried my mother. I can't believe she missed this because this is all she wanted. You know, she supported anything I was doing artistically or, I mean, she wanted me to go to school, but she was definitely my cheerleader.

• 33:37Rich Roll?

  Right. You're the more mature and fully expressed version of her on some level, right?

• 33:42Speaker 00

  I think so.

• 33:43Rich Roll?

  Like you were able to channel her spirit and put it into something tangible.

• 33:47Speaker 00

  I think so.

• 33:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 33:49Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 33:50Rich Roll?

  Well, that's really beautiful that he gave it up for you though, that he was able to acknowledge that, like to have the self-awareness and then express it to you.

• 33:56Speaker 00

  Oh my gosh. And then he, when my mother, after my mother was gone, you know, he was, and my, my biological father died, um, a couple of years after my mother. And so. Rick, my stepfather, he became my, that was my parent. And I, you know, I couldn't believe this was who I had to go to for everything. And, you know, he's just like, what is that? Mm hmm. Yes, well. And it was so crazy, but he really stepped up and he really shifted. And he, not that he wouldn't have like paid for my wedding, but he was like cake shopping with Stephanie's mother and me and Stephanie

• 34:41Speaker 00

  and Stephanie's sister and my brother, like all of us met in New Orleans and we're driving around cake test. That's not anything he would have done if my mother was alive. And he, even though my cousin hosted our wedding, Rick paid for it. And one of the most amazing, and he was never, I was never shunned for being gay or anything, but this was like classic Rick. And it was also so touching, but on my wedding day. And he just, everything should be a certain way with him, you know? And I, I was wearing like a suit and had a shirt. I didn't have a tie or anything, but he came up and he said,

• 35:21Speaker 00

  Tig, I was wondering if you would like to borrow my tie today for your wedding.

• 35:28Rich Roll?

  It's sweet.

• 35:29Speaker 00

  It's so sweet. And I was like, oh, Rick, because he was really acknowledging who, and I'm, I'm not a tie wearing lesbian, but I appreciated that he was.

• 35:42Rich Roll?

  You'd think maybe that might be something that Tig would like.

• 35:45Speaker 00

  Exactly. And, and I, I was so touched by that. And I said, oh, no, thank you, Rick. I don't, I don't want to wear a tie. But in his mind, you wear a suit and with the suit comes a tie. And he's happy to take off his to give to his daughter for her wedding day. So, and then when we had kids, he flew out like twice a year and would be on the floor playing with them. And I'm like, I'd call my brother, I'd like, who the hell is this? So crazy.

• 36:12Rich Roll?

  I mean, you got it. You know, it's, we're like of the same age and I talk about this all the time, but it's, it's kind of shocking that we're, you know, we're in our 50s, late 50s and, and we're all hung up about like how our parents feel about us and stuff. I mean, I have a similar, you know, an analogous situation. Like my mom has dementia right now, but she could never give it up, you know, I'm, I'm the great disappointment and, you know, you can still go to medical school and like, you know, the same, it's just a different version of the same story, right?

• 36:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 36:39Rich Roll?

  And all we want is, you know, love and acceptance. And for some reason, it's so difficult to get it. And everyone's out there doing the best they can based upon the way that they were raised and nobody really knows what they're doing. And all we can do is try to do a little bit better for our kids and interrupt those patterns. And, you know, usually we go to the extreme, like we go too far into the extreme and then that has to swing back. But you, you know, like you got what so many people like go to their grave wishing that they could have gotten.

• 37:14Speaker 00

  I, I mean, I feel so, so lucky. And for, like I said, for a while, I was like, I can't believe my mother, we literally just buried her and we're driving away and this is what happens. And, but then I thought, if I had a moment with my mother and I said, I can't believe you missed it. Rick apologized for everything and he accepts me for who I, and I didn't know I needed it from him. I,

• 37:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:42Speaker 00

  But the relief and the tears and the gratitude I felt, I was like, I can't believe I needed that all of this time.

• 37:51Rich Roll?

  But he might've shared it with her earlier and she might've said, you know, you should say that to take one day.

• 37:58Speaker 00

  You know what? Actually, now that you say that, I think that is, that is what happened because right before my mother died, they had called to say they wanted to come out and visit me. And it was after that phone call when I, I, I was, I'm not somebody that, I'm not a big complainer. I don't call home like, this happened. And, but I, I, there was something that happened in the comedy world where I was, I was a little confused and thrown off and hurt. And I didn't know what to do with that information. And I, when I called home and talked to them, that's when Rick said, well, you know, I should probably go to business school. And I was like, wait, what?

• 38:43Speaker 00

  That's not why, I was calling for some support, you know? And to hear that I should just extract myself from my life, that's why I said to him, this is just a bad day at work for me. This isn't a bad life. And, and that is, now that you say it, I'm, my mother died shortly after they called to try and make a plan to come out. And, and it was partly because Rick wanted to apologize to me for that. And, but when I imagine saying to my mother, like, Rick finally did this and said this,

• 39:25Speaker 00

  I imagine, knowing my mother so well, that she would have just said, it doesn't matter that I missed it, just the fact that it happened at all is what's important. And, and I do, I feel, I know it's rare, what I got. And what's even crazier is my whole, like so many kids, I was such an impatient kid. And my stepfather, you know, he was just so like, Tig, you have to be patient. There's, everything has a process. Everything, it was all about-

• 40:01Rich Roll?

  Well, he's not wrong.

• 40:02Speaker 00

  No.

• 40:03Rich Roll?

  That's good.

• 40:03Speaker 00

  It's so good. But what's crazy, what ended up coming full circle was when he, he ended up dying from a disease I had, which, one of the diseases I had, which was C. diff, which is a, I'm sure you know, it's a intestinal disease that is very deadly. And when I had it, he had never heard of it. And most people hadn't at that time. It's, it's becoming more prevalent. It's a superbug. But anyway, when he was on his deathbed, three years ago, I was with him.

• 40:44Speaker 00

  And my brother was trying to get there in time. And so I had this concentrated time with, he was, he was on a respirator. He couldn't talk. He was, but he was, he was completely coherent. And the nurses told me when I got there, they said, he's, he's ready. And I said, okay. And they said, you need to, we need you to just confirm with him that he understands that when we take him off this machine, that, that that is the end. And I was like, okay. It was just so much to take in. And I was, you know, it was very emotional.

• 41:28Speaker 00

  And, um, and I explained to him, I said, Rick, the, the nurses, the doctors say that you are ready. And I just want you to know, like, I support this, but if we do take you off, you do understand that this is, that's it. This is the end. And he nodded, yes. And then the doctor, or somebody came in and said, yes, grabbed the doctor and said, there's an emergency. And they had to pull the doctor from there. And, and they said it was going to take a while. And Rick was like, as time went on, his, his arms were flailing. He was frustrated. He was very frustrated.

• 42:08Speaker 00

  And I got to have a moment next to him where I was like, Rick, as you told me my whole life, you have to be patient. After I said, it's a process.

• 42:23Rich Roll?

  You couldn't help it.

• 42:25Speaker 00

  Oh, my God. But it was so incredible that at the end, and, and he nodded. He nodded, yes. And, and his arms came down. And it was such a touching, funny moment that I got to actually apply what he taught me my entire life. I got to tell him that the doctor had to go and will be back, but it's a process and you have to be patient.

• 42:47Rich Roll?

  That's unbelievable.

• 42:49Speaker 00

  Yeah. I, I just, I can't even believe that that was my final moment with him.

• 43:01Rich Roll?

  You've gone through a lot. He passed away, your mom passed away, pneumonia.

• 43:05Speaker 00

  My father passed away.

• 43:07Rich Roll?

  C. diff, your father, and then the cancer diagnosis. That's a lot of life.

• 43:13Speaker 00

  I mean, that's the tip of the iceberg, but yeah.

• 43:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and then, you know, the journey to having children and all of that. I appreciate the transparency and the vulnerability with which you've kind of shared all of this publicly. In your comedy, but also like in the Tig documentary, et cetera. How do you think about like those words like authenticity and vulnerability? Because your comedy wasn't always as personal as it evolved into.

• 43:48Speaker 00

  I mean, as far as those words, authenticity and vulnerability, I mean, I'm good with that. I connect with that. I definitely like the idea of feeling congruent with my life, with my... That's like what I was saying about live life and work balance. I just, I want things to line up and feel right. And it doesn't always, and I'm always searching for ways for it to feel that way.

• 44:27Speaker 00

  But I think I really am that person, and I wasn't. I feel like in 2012, when it was four months, I had like a sinus infection, bronchitis, pneumonia, contracted C. diff.

• 44:45Rich Roll?

  Was the C. diff a reaction to the antibiotics for the pneumonia?

• 44:50Speaker 00

  Yeah, the antibiotics can clear out your gut and leave C. diff alone to thrive, which is in your gut, and it works. Great, when the other bacteria is in there. I know you know this, but um, so yeah, I took antibiotics for the pneumonia and then developed C. diff and then my mother tripped and hit her head and died and um, and then my girlfriend and I split up and then I was diagnosed with invasive cancer and that was in a four month period of time and that's what cracked me open and I have no idea who

• 45:29Speaker 00

  I was before 2012. When I see pictures and I just, even though I was on my path and comedy and I was out and I was all of these things, there were so many levels that that four months like pushed me through that I didn't even, at first when people would say, "Do you think you just, you needed a wake up call? Is this, was this a wake up?" And I was like, "No, I don't feel like I'm somebody that needed a wake up call." But as time went on, I was like, "No, not that I think all of that happened for me to have

• 46:13Speaker 00

  a wake up call, but whatever happened, for whatever reason, I did get a wake up call. It just took me a long time to realize that I was not living as presently as I, I didn't even think about. I wasn't thinking about what I was eating or drinking or hanging out with. I was just, I was just living my life.

• 46:39Rich Roll?

  Well, I want to understand that better because I think for the average person, like if they were to look at you at the time, "Well, you're in your career, like things are happening, like you're funny, or like you're moving up the ladder, becoming more successful, um, everything seems fine." Like, what do you mean? What do you mean? Like, so what do you mean a wake up call? Like, what was it specifically that though, that series of experiences, like in such a condensed period of time? Brought to the surface that that needed reckoning like what was it that you had to confront to create more integrity?

• 47:13Speaker 00

  I think I didn't. This is what comes to mind right away is I didn't really understand the preciousness of everything, whether it was health, life, relationships. I looked back on people that I dated and I'm thankful for every experience I've had and every person I've dated, but I was so not present in ways in relationships. And I think, and I'm basically friendly with everybody that I've dated, but there were

• 47:53Speaker 00

  people that I later went back to and said, I don't know how you dealt with me. I was so, I just self-centered and just like doing whatever I wanted to do. And yeah, I was younger, but even down to, like I said, what I was putting into my body, I just didn't even think about anything. And I took risks that I, I was always a risk taker as a kid.

• 48:27Rich Roll?

  Shocker. I mean, come on, like you're like, yeah, it's like you're, you have a very like liberal relationship with risk. Like you're, you were doing all kinds of stuff, like for you to, you know, drop out of school and, you know, become this music manager and tour manager. Like you were bouncing around doing lots of different things like that is

• 48:44Speaker 00

  But even

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  scary to the average person.

• 48:46Speaker 00

  Risky, like risky stuff.

• 48:50Rich Roll?

  Risky, okay. Risky, risky?

• 48:52Speaker 00

  No, risky, like I would not repeat on this show because I wouldn't want to give anybody ideas. So just took risks that I'm glad I had that in my personality because I feel like I've been able to channel it in a different and positive direction in my life, my career, like talking publicly about having cancer, I did my HBO special with my shirt off. Those are risks that I want to take now.

• 49:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, those are creative risks. That's different.

• 49:31Speaker 00

  But it's still, I think it's rooted in just that core part of me that I'll take a risk, you know?

• 49:40Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. I haven't experienced the kind of loss that you've experienced, and I certainly haven't had a life-threatening illness. My only point of reference here, or analogous life experience, is just, you know, bottoming out on drugs and alcohol and getting sober. And that's its own kind of reckoning, where you realize like how you've lived your life unconsciously or reactively in a certain way, and in some degree of self-obsession, right? And the experience of getting sober kind of disabuses you of that, and you set a new trajectory for yourself. And it sounds like that's sort of the experience that you had. Like, I'm trying to help people understand, like, what was it about confronting your mortality

• 50:25Rich Roll?

  and the mortality of the people that you care about that made it so clear to you that you needed to make these changes?

• 50:32Speaker 00

  I don't think I had a full understanding or appreciation of how quickly things can go away. And then in that four months, losing, like, just being in hospital bed after hospital bed, wheelchair after wheelchair. I remember turning to my girlfriend at one point going, "This can't be normal, that a 40-something-year-old is constantly in a wheelchair or diapers." You know, it's so, it's so humbling, where it's like, gosh. Also, I'd never been so sick. I had the luxury of, like so many people, you have a headache or a stomach ache, there's

• 51:17Speaker 00

  a medication you can take, and you're done. I couldn't get a hold of my health. I was slipping away. I could not turn my health around. I was losing so much weight. I was struggling for so long. And when that happens, that the windshield wipers of like, I gotta turn this ship around. I gotta, everything just became very precious to me. And it was relationships. It was, my mother tripped and died. I didn't see that coming. I didn't, that was right around my birthday. So when Rick called me, I was like, oh, this is, you know, this is a birthday phone

• 52:02Speaker 00

  call. It wasn't, you know?

• 52:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, she just tripped, fell, hit her head, and that was it.

• 52:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, she was on life support.

• 52:11Rich Roll?

  But it wasn't like, oh, she broke her hip and like she was on a decline for many months. It was a very sudden thing.

• 52:17Speaker 00

  Yeah, she hit her head and then Rick was there and helped her up, checked her out. And then he went to bed and she stayed up and was watching Jimmy Kimmel. And then he said when he got up in the morning, she just was covered in blood and never was conscious again. And so those really difficult forced moments of your mother's gone and your health is gone and you can't turn it around. You cannot, you cannot beg the universe enough

• 52:57Speaker 00

  to bring your mother back and fix any issue or have any future with her. That it's just gone. And, and then not be able to turn the ship around with my health. I just had to wait and see if my body was going to respond to the treatment. And it, you know, took a while and it was, it was hard. But all of that stuff, you can't help but look back and reflect on.

• 53:27Speaker 00

  What you did in life and who you did that with and how you did it and how you would do it so differently and it's hard to stay in that moment, too, because I am human.

• 53:42Rich Roll?

  Snap back. Yeah.

• 53:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, you have such clarity and I have, I have changed. I'm thrilled I've changed. But I have moments where I find myself coasting, like I said in an interview, saying, oh, yeah, life, work balance, I'm on top of that. And I was like, no, I'm not.

• 54:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:04Speaker 00

  I'm not. And I'm asleep in this conversation.

• 54:08Rich Roll?

  This sense of powerlessness, I mean, it kind of forces a surrender, right? That cures you, at least temporarily, of that self obsession and allows you to see your life a little bit more clearly. One of the things I think a lot about is extreme moments like that, these are the levers of change. Like if you, you know, these changes or a deeper level of self-awareness, they're always available to us. Like, we can change in any moment. And we all know what our bad behaviors are or what our patterns are. But, you know, it's so difficult to do it and it takes kind of some kind of intervening external event like that to shake us up and actually create the willingness to make

• 54:51Rich Roll?

  those changes. Why can't we just, you know, elect to do them? Why do we have to be in so much pain in order to do it?

• 54:59Speaker 00

  It's really wild. It really is. Because it's, I mean, this is so minor, but it's like even after being so sick and shifting to what I believe is a healthier diet, I'm also plant-based and people will talk to me about it and say, like, how do you do it? How do you stay focused on that? How do you? And I always say, like, you really have to have a north star of why you've made this decision. You can't, this isn't just like a, like a diet that you have to be driven by your health or your love for animals or your concern for the planet or whatever it is that is going to keep you in line. It's

• 55:42Speaker 00

  not a, during the pandemic, people, a couple of people were like,

• 55:48Speaker 00

  So you stayed vegan during the pandemic even? I was like.

• 55:53Rich Roll?

  That's where you were real, you kicked it into high gear during the pandemic. You were like, like, there was one moment where, is she quitting comedy? And she's just gonna be a health coach now?

• 56:03Speaker 00

  Thought when I, when the pandemic ended, I was on set with Reese Witherspoon doing a movie. And I was talking to her, I was like, oh, my gosh, I, I got a plant-based nutrition certification. And, and I've been helping, you know, my, a family member and comedians and my next door neighbor who had high blood pressure. And it's just, I, I thought that maybe I'll do this as like a side gig. And she said, oh, my gosh, she goes, Tig, that's gonna make you hundreds of dollars.

• 56:34Speaker 00

  So funny. But yeah, I started to think, and it is, it's a huge passion of mine. Cause I have seen great results. I feel so good. And I did, I, I thought, what am I gonna do with all this time? And a lot of comedians were doing.

• 56:53Rich Roll?

  Like everyone else is, this is their moment to, you know, do a daily show or really work on their material and, and be an online, you know, like really amp up their online. You know, or start a Zoom podcast.

• 57:05Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 57:06Rich Roll?

  Which I smart, like Smartless started during the pandemic, I think, right? As a sort of, we need something to do.

• 57:12Speaker 00

  Maybe, I mean, look, I, I started, I did two podcasts. I had Don't Ask Tig and then I had Tig and Cheryl with Cheryl Hines. But that ended, that ended.

• 57:27Speaker 00

  But those both, those both ended, both of those ended. I was doing those simultaneously.

• 57:35Speaker 00

  And then shut those down and then just went towards Handsome, which is the one I'm doing now. But a lot of standups were doing.

• 57:50Speaker 00

  What were they like, drive-in movie shows where if people thought it was funny, they'd honk, or they'd do Zoom stand-up? And I was like, I love stand-up, but not that much, where I'm gonna take a honk.

• 58:04Rich Roll?

  Not as much as you loved T. Colin Campbell at the time. This is the weird where our lives intersect in a very strange way. You know, like, I've had T. Colin Campbell on the podcast, like, way back in the early days. Like, that's my world, you know?

• 58:19Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 58:20Rich Roll?

  It's a very interesting world. And for you to say, not, it's like, just so people understand, like, you didn't just go vegan or plant-based, like, you went deep, like, and, you know, so far as to get your certificate in plant-based nutrition from the T. Colin Campbell, you know, school at, like, Cornell, which is like, it's not a, I know plenty of people who've done that course. I haven't personally, but like, it's pretty rigorous, like, it's not a small thing. And not only that, like, officially, you know, you graduated from seventh grade, you have gone to school. But on your website, you still have like a, oh, click here to like, learn about this. And there's an article that you wrote on like, the T. Colin Campbell Nutrition Studies

• 59:03Rich Roll?

  website, where you're like, student of the month. Did you know that?

• 59:07Speaker 00

  No.

• 59:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 59:09Speaker 00

  That's hilarious.

• 59:10Rich Roll?

  You've been, this is your academic honor.

• 59:11Speaker 00

  I know. Well, I ended up getting my GED. My mother and my stepfather were like, if you drop out, you have to get your GED. And so I did. They put such importance in it. And I got it, and I left it on the kitchen table, and my cat ate it. And so I have what's left of it in a frame in my office at home, because I would tell my parents, I was like, just so you know, the important certificate ended up in the kitty litter box, ultimately. So, yeah, I have two certificates. I have the general education diploma that's eaten by my cat, and then I have the plant-based nutrition certification.

• 59:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:54Speaker 00

  And it was really just, I wanted to know more because I was so fascinated by the shift in how I felt. And the...

• 1:00:07Speaker 00

  I just, I wasn't in the level of pain that I was in.

• 1:00:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:00:13Speaker 00

  And so I just wanted to know more and I also, I don't try to convert people, but if somebody wants to hear about it, I'll talk about it.

• 1:00:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that gets tricky.

• 1:00:29Rich Roll?

  The culture has shifted a little bit. There was, there was a period of time there where people were all about it. And it seems like people are less all about it right now.

• 1:00:38Speaker 00

  Right.

• 1:00:39Rich Roll?

  You know, advocacy shows up in all different forms, but I'm more like you. Like, I, I, you know, the, the prospect of like trying to change somebody's mind is not only difficult, it's sort of, you know, futile in a lot of ways. Like, and it's not that interesting to me. Like, I'm like you, I'm like, if you want to hear about it, I'm happy to talk to you about it, but I'm not running around chasing people.

• 1:01:04Speaker 00

  I had a really fun experience recently where my aunt and uncle drove up and hung out with me and my kids for the day. And my aunt is always like interested in going to vegan restaurants with me and, and talking about it and trying it for herself. But my uncle is very like, he's grilling and he's, you know, he's meat. And, but I mean, he's, they accommodate when we come into town or they're up. But we went to a vegan restaurant and at the, and he was very happy with his meal. And then afterwards, the waiter asked if anybody wanted dessert. And everyone was like, oh, no, thank you.

• 1:01:48Speaker 00

  And my aunt said, because she had been at that restaurant before, she goes, oh, I remember the key lime pie being so good. And my uncle was like, key lime pie? What, what, how do they make that? And I said, I think it's like avocados and lime juice. And, and he was like, mm. And I said, you should try it. And he was like, no, no, thank you. And I said, you know what? Let's just get a piece and then if you don't want any, everyone else will eat it. So we get a piece. He is like, Can't believe it. He was like, this is, and I was like, yeah. And he was like smiling, laughing while he's eating. He loved it so much. And he said, I would love to try and make this. And I said, well, they have a cookbook.

• 1:02:33Speaker 00

  And I said, I'd love to get you the cookbook. And he was like, no, no, no. And I said, no, I would, if you really would love to make this, I really want to get you the cookbook. This was recent. This was maybe a week ago. They went to Arizona for their grandson's wedding. They're sending me pictures of vegan restaurants they're going to. Restaurants with vegan options. They're having vegan sushi, sending me pictures like, this was delicious. You know, my uncle's like, wow, this was, he has the cookbook.

• 1:03:05Rich Roll?

  That's wild.

• 1:03:06Speaker 00

  He is making the key lime pie and he's sending me every picture of the whole process. He was like, I took the cream from the key lime pie and I used it in my coffee this morning and that was even delicious. And I was just telling my wife Stephanie on the way here. I was like, it so makes sense with my uncle because he's like very scientific and an engineer and he builds guitars and he just likes to know how everything works. And that I think really applies with vegan food, plant-based food.

• 1:03:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:42Speaker 00

  That's what I find so fascinating too, is what they can do with the ingredients.

• 1:03:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, in ways that you can't, you're like, how is this possible? You know, I don't know if you know, my wife had a plant-based cheese company called Shremu. And I was like, what is this sorcery?

• 1:03:57Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Rich Roll?

  Like, okay, it's cashews and like, it tastes like this? Like, I don't understand how you do this, you know?

• 1:04:03Speaker 00

  Right. And I'm not saying my uncle's going to be vegan now, but I can see he's, I can see him so interested.

• 1:04:11Rich Roll?

  He's doing the math in his brain. Yeah, look at you. You're just inspiring people in all different kinds of ways, all the time.

• 1:04:18Speaker 00

  It's so exciting to me to get his little photos because, I mean, he hasn't really texted me much before, but man, is he on a texting tear with his plant-based meals.

• 1:04:30Rich Roll?

  But it was the gentle touch. It wasn't like, you need to understand. It was like, oh, we're gonna go here and like, I'll maybe try it, or, you know, like trusting people to, you know, go on their own journey with these things.

• 1:04:44Speaker 00

  And we do that with our sons, too. They're nine and we tell them, you guys can eat whatever you want. You can try whatever you want. We just don't have animal products in our house. And every now and then at birthday parties or school events, they'll grab a cookie or a cupcake. But in general, their teachers and their friends' parents are like, I'm so impressed. They're like, they really are proud that they eat the way that they do.

• 1:05:14Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:05:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:05:15Rich Roll?

  That'll change.

• 1:05:16Speaker 00

  Sure. But we just, we don't want to be rigid with them.

• 1:05:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. I think that's, that's smart. You just, you, yeah, this is the way we do it. And then letting them have their experience when they're outside of the house so that they have agency. And, you know, all you can do is teach them good habits and then it's up to them to figure out, you know, who they are and all that kind of thing.

• 1:05:38Speaker 00

  As my stepfather said.

• 1:05:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. You're just, see, you're walking in the shoes of...

• 1:05:42Speaker 00

  Very different shoes, but, but yeah.

• 1:05:54Rich Roll?

  Speaking of inspiring, I want to talk a little bit about the 2012 Largo show. You had been diagnosed with breast cancer, but it was, it was early. It was, it had like just happened, right? And you make this, or it had happened pretty close to that moment.

• 1:06:14Speaker 00

  A few days before the bill.

• 1:06:15Rich Roll?

  It was that close. And, and you decide you're gonna go onstage and talk about it. And you basically walk out on stage and say, hello, I have cancer.

• 1:06:24Speaker 00

  That was a risk.

• 1:06:26Rich Roll?

  And this, this turns into, you know, this becomes like this legendary set that you do.

• 1:06:31Speaker 00

  Basically, I got my diagnosis, which was the final blow of that four-month period of time. And...

• 1:06:41Speaker 00

  And I thought, I can't do that. I was just devastated. I was leveled. I couldn't believe after everything that had happened. And so I called Flanagan, the owner of Largo, and just said, I can't do my show on Friday or Saturday, whatever it is. And he said, well, you know, don't cancel it. Let's just leave it open in case you change your mind. And I thought, this guy's nuts. Why would I? Like, did he not hear me? And so sure enough, when it came, because he said, you could cancel the second before

• 1:07:21Speaker 00

  you go onstage, but let's just leave it open. And man, was he right. The day of the show, I was like, yeah, I want to go onstage. And because I was very much in touch with that feeling of, I've seen how quickly life slips away. And I didn't know if I'd ever be able to do stand up again. So I just wanted to go for it another time. And I had talked to Ira Glass, the host of This American Life before. And I had done a segment on his show previously about running into the pop singer Taylor Dane over and over. And he

• 1:08:05Speaker 00

  said, we need a follow up. The audience loves that bit. What's your follow up? And I was like, man, I'm really sick. And he said, why don't you record your show tonight? See if Largo will record it. And if there's something there, maybe, maybe we could use that.

• 1:08:23Rich Roll?

  And typically, there's no recordings at Largo.

• 1:08:26Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:08:26Rich Roll?

  I mean, they definitely don't film anything. But even recording audio is like a big no no.

• 1:08:31Speaker 00

  Unless they do it. Unless it's like, decided beforehand. But they're very much a lockdown kind of venue. And so I said, and this was for Ira. I said, can we just record it? Ira was thinking, maybe. I said, because I'm going to talk about what's been going on in my life. And so they did. They recorded it. And I remember sending Ira the audio, saying, I don't know, maybe there's a couple of minutes you'd want. And he was like,

• 1:09:05Speaker 00

  He was like, this whole thing, he was like, I love, and I was like, I was too close to it. I was like, you like that? I didn't, I was so confused. And then also, after doing the show that night, it went viral. And I didn't have a clue. I was so, like, somebody's great, great grandmother. I was barely on social media. I didn't even know how it went viral, because

• 1:09:33Rich Roll?

  There was nothing, the idea went viral.

• 1:09:35Speaker 00

  The idea went viral.

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, not the content itself.

• 1:09:38Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah, everybody was

• 1:09:39Rich Roll?

  Because everyone was sharing, because there were a lot of, a lot of well-known people there.

• 1:09:42Speaker 00

  Yeah, that were

• 1:09:43Rich Roll?

  Who spread the word about it.

• 1:09:44Speaker 00

  On the show that didn't know I had been sick, or had gone through all that I was going through. And so they were a little stunned, listening. And then people in the audience were tweeting about it. The performers were tweeting. And, and so I woke up the next day. I remember that night, I went to a diner with my friends Beth and Rick, and some other people. And, and we were just like, wow, that was a crazy show, you know, because I was up there talking about the death of my mother, and having cancer, and all of this stuff. And then I went to bed, like, 3:00 in the morning. I woke up the next day, and my, my, I had, like, 10 million voicemail, like, truly, like, what the hell?

• 1:10:29Speaker 00

  So many emails. I had book deal offers. I had all sorts of, what happened? I did not know what happened. And people were like, oh, the story went viral overnight. And I, I was like, what does that mean? What went viral? And, yeah, it was, it was wild.

• 1:10:49Rich Roll?

  And what was the consequence of that for you? Like, what did that set in motion?

• 1:10:55Speaker 00

  Well, it was very weird timing, because I was about to have surgery. I was about to start, you know, all of my recovery.

• 1:11:06Rich Roll?

  Didn't cure you of cancer.

• 1:11:07Speaker 00

  No, no, it didn't. It was a very interesting time, because I was

• 1:11:16Speaker 00

  Thrust into the spotlight when I was at my lowest. And I was so uncomfortable. I remember it was a fun appearance, but I went on Conan right after I had my surgery because I wanted to tell everyone I was okay. Because I didn't know what to do with this attention on me, even though I was still, I mean, I was, I had, it was hard to get my T-shirt on, you know, to go on to Conan.

• 1:11:45Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:11:45Speaker 00

  And I was still like, holding my pants up. But I was like, can I go on there? Just, I wanted to announce to the world, don't worry about me, I'm okay. And I was to some degree, but I was also in a lot of physical and emotional pain still.

• 1:12:01Rich Roll?

  But part of, part of why the performance was so impactful was that you were saying, I'm not okay.

• 1:12:08Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:12:09Rich Roll?

  You know, in this experience of powerlessness and confusion and not knowing what was going to happen. It was a way of you exercising agency over it. Like, I get to decide what this means to me. And, and taking this creative and professional risk to be so open about what was happening in a way where, where you were taking ownership of it. That's like at odds with going on Conan and trying to pretend like everything is fine. Right?

• 1:12:42Speaker 00

  Everything was at odds.

• 1:12:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:44Speaker 00

  I was really, my head was spinning. I, I was, I was trying to keep working in ways. I was trying to take care of my body. I was trying to deal with the attention that was on me. And I just was spinning for quite a while, even when I thought I was okay, even, even. It just was a long process of getting through that. It was, it was. Any moment that I that I thought I was doing better or breaking through the confusion and because again, my mother was gone.

• 1:13:29Speaker 00

  That's it was massive and losing my relationship and all of that. I had great friends and the public embraced me in such I was so lucky.

• 1:13:43Speaker 00

  But it took me a long time to find my footing again.

• 1:13:48Rich Roll?

  Looking back on that, what was it about what you said on stage? That that was so impactful to the audience? Like, why did it catch fire? Like, do you have a like an explanation or a sense of that?

• 1:14:05Speaker 00

  I think it was partly that people are so interested in, you know, reality shows and social media where you get a peek into people's lives. And this was happening real time, you know? This wasn't like a set I had worked on over and over. It was really me walking up there going essentially asking for help from the audience.

• 1:14:31Rich Roll?

  Not not some perfected act.

• 1:14:34Speaker 00

  No, sir.

• 1:14:34Rich Roll?

  That you had been working on, just you just got up there and laid it all out.

• 1:14:38Speaker 00

  Yeah. No, I I really and I said it in my documentary that I knew there was. This was another risk, like I said, to go on stage and share this. I didn't know if it was going to be funny and I didn't know if I was going to bomb and then just disappear into the darkness and die. And people would be like, wow, I saw our last show. That was awkward. That was weird. I also think people, there's so much in that set that people can relate to. Everybody's most people have lost a relationship. And everyone's been affected by cancer, the loss of a parent.

• 1:15:22Speaker 00

  And it's, yeah, it was voyeuristic, I think, too, for people like, whoa. You know, it was, it was raw.

• 1:15:32Rich Roll?

  What is it about Largo that makes that place so special?

• 1:15:36Speaker 00

  I wish I knew. It is so special.

• 1:15:39Rich Roll?

  It's pretty legendary. I mean, I remember, before I even moved to Los Angeles, there would just be these stories about John Bryan and Amy Mann and Elliot Smith and like these legends. But what makes it so cool is the casual vibe to it. It's kind of this cool kids' club. And it was shocking to me when I moved to Los Angeles that, you know, for a lot of the shows, like, it's not that hard to get tickets. Like, you can go all the time and there's people that have, like, season tickets, basically, and they just go to everything. And it is this community hub where artists have the

• 1:16:19Rich Roll?

  permission to get up on stage, kind of half-cocked. Like, the expectation isn't that you're getting some polished thing. It's generally people who are working on stuff, or you're seeing a more unvarnished, you know, experimental version of what this person, you know, does.

• 1:16:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah, it's, there's so many performers that are not regulars there that will pop in on a show and they're like, oh, I'm so intimidated. Like, this is Largo. And it's, you know, you can't overthink it because the audiences there, they're open. They're ready to go. They want to see whatever you got. And I do think that if you're showing up with your polished show.

• 1:17:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's not going to go over so well.

• 1:17:10Speaker 00

  They're not, they're not looking for that.

• 1:17:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:17:13Speaker 00

  Yeah. But, you know, they want a good show.

• 1:17:17Rich Roll?

  And it's retained its, its, like, coolness over the years, which is rare. Usually, these things kind of like come and go. They don't, they're not able to, like, hold on to that sensibility.

• 1:17:28Speaker 00

  I mean, yeah, especially in Los Angeles. It's, it's like, I was telling my therapist the other day that there's so many things in this city where you go, and look, I, I love and appreciate Los Angeles, but there is a feeling of, like, Is this real? Like, are you my friend? Are you really my friend? Or do I like, really? Am I really? Is this? When I was walking down the street in my neighborhood the other day, it kind of amused me in a sad way that like, if somebody took down the entire street I was walking, like while I was walking, and I found out it was just a set, wasn't even, I'd be like, oh, right. That wasn't even real. Like, my neighborhood isn't even real.

• 1:18:12Speaker 00

  This is, what is real? And people move from like, oh, this is the cool restaurant. Or, oh, I'm excited about our friendship. Or, I want you on this show. And then it'll change so fast. And you're like, wait, I thought we were friends. Or, I thought this was, this restaurant is delicious. Or this coffee shop. Nope, not anymore. But yeah, Largo? Steady Eddie.

• 1:18:34Rich Roll?

  Steady, I know. That's, that's what's, I mean, it's what's cool, but it's also confusing. It's so anachronistic with this city.

• 1:18:41Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:18:42Rich Roll?

  You have no explanation as to why, though?

• 1:18:43Speaker 00

  No, I, I think Flanagan, the owner, he really, he takes it very seriously. Like, what comes in? It's kind of like what you're saying about the algorithm. There's no algorithm.

• 1:19:01Rich Roll?

  He's the kingmaker. He gets to decide.

• 1:19:04Speaker 00

  Yeah. And, and he seems, yeah. The way he curates the lineup, he seems to know what he's doing. And he doesn't care. Like, when people show up and they're like, I'm so and so. Like, I had a manager once, embarrassingly, that he had recently signed me, and he was late to my show, and he was like, causing this big ruckus. And like, do you know who I am? And I'm Tig's manager. And I was so embarrassed because I'm like, this is not, this is not the vibe. And first of all, for me or this venue. And I remember Flanagan being like, this guy is a tool. You know, he doesn't care how famous you are, who you are.

• 1:19:48Speaker 00

  He wants a focused audience and a good show on stage. And that is really the only, the only focus.

• 1:19:59Rich Roll?

  How long did you stay with that manager?

• 1:20:03Speaker 00

  Um, gosh, maybe a year. And he was like the first really powerful person that, um, that I kind of got the attention of. It was more his wife was a fan.

• 1:20:22Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:20:23Speaker 00

  That's, that was that entry way. She was like a big fan and wanted her husband to sign me and he did and, you know.

• 1:20:31Rich Roll?

  Whatever.

• 1:20:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:20:33Rich Roll?

  Um, you mentioned therapy.

• 1:20:35Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 1:20:36Rich Roll?

  I saw the trailer for the group therapy documentary. I haven't watched it yet. Um, is it up yet? I don't think it's, is it, is it already, it's already, it's already available?

• 1:20:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, I don't know what, um, I don't know where it is. Maybe it's Amazon or something.

• 1:20:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm not sure.

• 1:20:50Speaker 00

  I don't know.

• 1:20:51Rich Roll?

  Um, what's going on with that documentary? And what is going on with mental health more broadly, like within the comedy community? Like, do you have to have some kind of mental health situation going on to be an effective comic?

• 1:21:08Speaker 00

  See, I don't believe that.

• 1:21:10Rich Roll?

  But you seem pretty balanced and grounded.

• 1:21:12Speaker 00

  Well, I've been working at that.

• 1:21:15Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:21:16Speaker 00

  I, I, like I said, I wasn't, and I don't know who I was before 2012, but, um, I've never believed that you have to be miserable or struggling to be funny.

• 1:21:33Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:21:34Speaker 00

  I think you have.

• 1:21:35Rich Roll?

  Depressed or neurotic?

• 1:21:36Speaker 00

  No.

• 1:21:37Rich Roll?

  Like all of those tropes?

• 1:21:38Speaker 00

  I really don't. I think that when people like to put that on comedians or musicians or artists or whatever, I really, all I can think about is.

• 1:21:54Speaker 00

  Everybody's dealing with that stuff. Everybody's got cuckoo parents, or anxiety, or depression. We're the ones with the microphone. And so, it's easy to blame us, like, oh, they're going through a lot, and they're, you know, people can look at artists, and, and just kind of be like, wow, they're miserable, they're depressed, they're struggling.

• 1:22:21Rich Roll?

  They're just wearing it on their sleeve.

• 1:22:22Speaker 00

  Right, right. And, um, because if you go next door, or you talk to your mail carrier, or the pilot of your plane, you're gonna find cancer, alcoholism, depression. It's everywhere. We just have the microphone.

• 1:22:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:22:39Speaker 00

  And I feel like, it's not that you have to be miserable and depressed, it's, you have to be living a real life, I think, in order to get material. And I'm not like, living a real life to get material, but you have to...

• 1:22:56Rich Roll?

  Be in the world.

• 1:22:58Speaker 00

  You have to be in the world. But I just, I don't believe that you have to be a miserable person.

• 1:23:05Rich Roll?

  What is your writing process? How do you know when something is funny?

• 1:23:10Speaker 00

  I think it's just an extra sense. It's, it's, it's funny going to dinners, or parties, where it's not entertainment, or comedy people, and they're like, oh, comedians here, oh, I better watch what I'm saying, oh, I'm gonna end up in their set, and, and I'm like, no, you're not. Like, chances are, you're, you're not gonna end up in my set. It's so...

• 1:23:37Rich Roll?

  Because you're not that interesting, and you're not that funny.

• 1:23:39Speaker 00

  Well, it's not even that, it's just, it's so rare for me. I mean, maybe, and there probably are comedians, that everything strikes them, or they are looking for bits, but... I'm just hanging out with people and if something happens, that extra sense, I'm like, oh, that could be, that's funny, you know? And it's, it's never necessarily the obvious thing. And I'll just make a little note on a napkin and revisit it. But I don't.

• 1:24:13Rich Roll?

  A napkin? That's your, that's your process of napkin?

• 1:24:16Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:24:16Rich Roll?

  Like I had Birbiglia in here and he like brought a notebook and it's sitting here. And he's like, oh, I don't go anywhere without this, you know? He's like all like making notes.

• 1:24:25Speaker 00

  You know, I've got a seventh grade education, so I've got a paper napkin. Birbiglia's got, you know?

• 1:24:34Speaker 00

  He's the best, man. He's like, I took him to dinner one night because I was like, you blow my mind. How are you this prolific? And I really, I'm like, tell me everything. And, and he continues to just churn out.

• 1:24:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's pretty great.

• 1:24:55Speaker 00

  He really is. And, but yeah, I don't, I don't sit down and I always say if, not if, but when I die, you're not going to find the lost writings of Tig Notaro.

• 1:25:09Rich Roll?

  The papers.

• 1:25:11Speaker 00

  The dirty, crumpled.

• 1:25:12Rich Roll?

  In some library, the papers of Tig Notaro.

• 1:25:14Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:25:15Rich Roll?

  A bunch of napkins? Like, what are you assembling these napkins? Like, how does it find its way from the napkin onto a page, onto, you know, some kind of set that gets worked on?

• 1:25:29Speaker 00

  I wish I knew, Rich. I don't know.

• 1:25:32Rich Roll?

  You don't know? There's no method.

• 1:25:33Speaker 00

  No, I, sometimes I find a napkin and I'm like, tube sock? What was that about? And I'll be like, Stephanie, did I say something about a tube sock? And she's like, I have no idea. I'm like, wow, okay. But I also have that faith that if something is really funny, it's gonna, it'll come back up.

• 1:25:53Rich Roll?

  It sticks around.

• 1:25:54Speaker 00

  Yeah. It'll pop back up because whatever it was about that tube sock, well, it'll, it'll, it'll happen again. But, um, yeah, I just, I'll just try different things out. And if it sticks and I remember it, then it feels worth continuing.

• 1:26:14Speaker 00

  To work on.

• 1:26:15Rich Roll?

  And are you somebody who is regimented, like, okay, you know, this is the time of day where I sit down and work, like, how does that work?

• 1:26:24Speaker 00

  I do all my writing.

• 1:26:25Rich Roll?

  Which is like, let's just dispel that illusion right now. There isn't, this is, you know, this is, I think it's a violence on people. We're all walking around trying to like be balanced. It's, nobody's balanced.

• 1:26:36Speaker 00

  No, no, but I'll, I'll tell you what, I have way more balance. That's what I'm saying is like.

• 1:26:41Rich Roll?

  I don't think it's balance, it's, it's groundedness and presence in what you're doing and making sure that you're, because you're never going to be able to show up and, and have all of these things in proper order every single day, especially when you have kids and you're married and.

• 1:26:57Speaker 00

  No, my son got sick this morning.

• 1:26:59Rich Roll?

  Life, like, yeah, so we hold ourselves to that standard and then we feel bad about ourselves, where I think the solution is really like, okay, well, this is what I'm doing right now and I can't control the external world and I'm just going to be focused on this and okay with the fact that, you know, these other things are not getting attended to right now.

• 1:27:19Speaker 00

  For sure, but all of the things that I can control of like, you know, whether it's what I'm eating or how much work, how much time I'm spending away from home, working, I do have control over that and, you know, my cancer could return.

• 1:27:37Rich Roll?

  But you don't have control over that.

• 1:27:38Speaker 00

  I don't, but what I do have control over is investing the, the, the time and energy into, I exercise every day, I, I believe I'm eating a healthy diet, certainly throw some cupcakes and cookies in there, but I'm sure there's no peak balance, like you're saying, but the place that I've gotten to now.

• 1:28:07Speaker 00

  I would say I'm happier and more fulfilled than ever on a very genuine, real level and in a present way.

• 1:28:16Rich Roll?

  So the writing process?

• 1:28:18Speaker 00

  Doesn't exist. I go onstage.

• 1:28:21Rich Roll?

  With a napkin and just freewheeling it? Come on.

• 1:28:25Speaker 00

  Yeah, truly. I write everything onstage. I will write a word or a phrase to trigger my memory, but look, your producer, that's how I ended up here. He's seen me scramble around onstage.

• 1:28:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But when you're doing a special or like a full hour or something like that, obviously you've been working on this for a long time. It's evolved.

• 1:28:46Speaker 00

  For sure.

• 1:28:47Rich Roll?

  And you're just sort of memorizing it as you go and you just have key words to trigger the next thought?

• 1:28:52Speaker 00

  Well, by that point, when I'm doing a special, I know what has stuck and what works, and then I just naturally carry that to the special. But when I'm touring and I have my napkins and I'm, man, when I'm in a hotel room and I finished a set and I throw a napkin away, I really try and dispose of it so the housekeeper doesn't come across it and think I'm a psychopath. Because it's like, the napkin is, yeah, like tube sock, breast cancer, kitty litter. It's like, what was that day gonna be like for this person? Or what was that day?

• 1:29:35Rich Roll?

  But is there another napkin lying around somewhere? Like, if you throw it out, then how are you gonna remember next time?

• 1:29:41Speaker 00

  Because I have-

• 1:29:42Rich Roll?

  It's all chambered up here?

• 1:29:44Speaker 00

  No, I, when I have the idea, the word, the phrase, and I write it on a napkin, I'll transfer that to a bigger napkin.

• 1:29:56Rich Roll?

  There's no computers involved?

• 1:30:00Speaker 00

  No, there is a computer involved. That I move that, a word or phrase, to a new material document, but it's not, I don't have-

• 1:30:11Speaker 00

  All of the wording written out. I just have tube sock, breast cancer, kitty litter.

• 1:30:17Speaker 00

  That's not really my material, but, um, anymore. But, um, so yeah, it'll go to that document. And then I'll look through the document and I'll think, oh, maybe I'll throw out this thing, or I'll try that, or I don't feel like this has legs, but maybe if I scramble around on stage with it for a little bit, I'll find something. And, um, and then those will go to like a little piece of paper. And, and then I'll, I'll find that these things worked and this didn't. And it's just a whole, you know, moving around process to see. But once I'm, yeah, once I'm taping my special.

• 1:30:58Rich Roll?

  You're locked in at that point.

• 1:31:00Speaker 00

  Yeah, I'm totally locked in.

• 1:31:01Rich Roll?

  I think what's so unique about stand up as an art form is that you, you can't, you know, the, the artist can't create without the feedback from the audience. Like that gestation process is a, like a communal experience. Like you can't, like a painter goes away and paints and here's my painting, or you know, whatever. Somebody writes a song, same thing. But you need the audience in order to hone the material and craft it. There's no other way around that.

• 1:31:33Speaker 00

  Unless you're Maria Bamford. Do you know Maria?

• 1:31:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:37Speaker 00

  She's one of my favorites.

• 1:31:38Rich Roll?

  I mean, I don't know her personally. I know who she is.

• 1:31:40Speaker 00

  I mean, she does sessions where...

• 1:31:44Rich Roll?

  I mean, there's a lot of people who are like, she's the funniest person on planet Earth.

• 1:31:47Speaker 00

  She is. She's just, she's a freak of nature. I mean, seeing Maria kill or bomb is a delight because...

• 1:31:56Rich Roll?

  She, it doesn't matter. Because if she bombs, it's probably, it's her own form of entertainment.

• 1:32:01Speaker 00

  For me, yeah. I'm like, oh my gosh. And I feel bad for the audience because they, if, if they're not getting it. And it's not like I see Maria bomb all the time, but she is somebody that will sit, this is classic Maria. She is, there's nobody else like her walking this planet. She will come up with her new hour and she'll invite a random fan from the internet to sit down with her at a coffee shop and she'll just tell them her hour.

• 1:32:31Rich Roll?

  That's it?

• 1:32:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:32:32Rich Roll?

  She's like, I should probably run this by one person before I get up on stage.

• 1:32:36Speaker 00

  At Starbucks.

• 1:32:40Speaker 00

  I'm like, I cannot imagine in a million years going to Starbucks. No, but yeah.

• 1:32:48Rich Roll?

  The confidence.

• 1:32:51Speaker 00

  Is it even confidence?

• 1:32:52Rich Roll?

  What is it? I mean, to know, like, this is what it is. I'm gonna go up and do this. I don't need to workshop it 100 times.

• 1:33:00Speaker 00

  I mean, she workshops it, but when she's like, I gotta, I gotta really sit down and see if what I've workshopped is at its peak level. Let me sit down with Carol from The Valley and see what she thinks over a bran muffin.

• 1:33:20Rich Roll?

  There's something about that dynamic that I think is instructive as a tool for life. Like, just, you have to engage with other people and be vulnerable and share something. And they're gonna, you know, be honest with you about what they think. And then you have to internalize that, which, when you kind of think about culture right now and the extent to which we're divided and increasingly unable to talk to each other, like, I feel like this is an important life skill. And it's one of the reasons why I like Mike Birbiglia's podcast so much. It's called Working It Out. And it's two artists sitting across from each other, like, sharing their work and giving

• 1:34:04Rich Roll?

  honest feedback about where they think each other is at with it. And it's practicing this process of what it's like to give people constructive criticism and see somebody receive that and not be defensive, but actually excited by, oh, my God, we can make this better. You know, that's a good idea. And I think there's something about that that we can all benefit from in the way we interact with just, you know, average people in our lives.

• 1:34:36Speaker 00

  1 million percent. It's like...

• 1:34:40Speaker 00

  I think it's, I love surrounding myself with people that are smarter than me, that have different ideas and, and just, I mean, not too different.

• 1:34:57Rich Roll?

  Let's be clear.

• 1:34:58Speaker 00

  Let's be really clear.

• 1:35:00Rich Roll?

  Set the stage.

• 1:35:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just mean like creatively, I'm so curious and my wife and I work so closely together and we give each other notes and she's about the only person that I'm interested in, like when, mainly because she, her, she's always so right on and her taste is so good and, and she'll be like, oh, what if you did this or maybe drop that or, and, and look, she's not writing my material. I mean, she has, like when I do, when I host award shows and she knows my voice very well, but with just my stand-up, I'm, I'm so interested

• 1:35:43Speaker 00

  in what she has to say or just collaborating. When I had my, I had a show, One Mississippi, and it was so fun to sit in a writer's room and challenge each other with our different life experiences and perspectives that I believe ultimately made that show so much better than if it was just me going, no, this is, I mean, it wasn't, it was loosely based on my life story and what was fun was having people take these topics and the writers

• 1:36:24Speaker 00

  add their experience in each little area that it was, it was really fun and, and it's, it's a process of, of letting go and, and being open to hearing about edits or hearing about additions to stories or.

• 1:36:46Speaker 00

  I love collaborating. I really do.

• 1:36:49Rich Roll?

  Have you ever had the experience of doing that with Ira Glass?

• 1:36:55Speaker 00

  Doing what?

• 1:36:56Rich Roll?

  Like having him give you feedback on your material? Because I've heard him do it with Mike on his podcast. And I was like, wow, like that guy has laser vision.

• 1:37:07Speaker 00

  And he was right on?

• 1:37:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he was helping Mike with something. I mean, it's kind of a legendary podcast episode where you realize like, oh, this guy is like, you know, dialed in.

• 1:37:18Speaker 00

  Yeah, he, well, first of all, he's who, as I said, encouraged me to record my show. And I thought he was as crazy as Flanagan was for telling me to keep the show open in case I wanted to do it. I thought they were both nuts.

• 1:37:35Rich Roll?

  And his instinct was exactly correct.

• 1:37:37Speaker 00

  Yeah, and I was borderline offended at the time because I was so scared and in a vulnerable place. I was like, these guys just want me to like, record my material and do my show. And I'm like, so sad and in pain. But yeah, Ira was like, this could be such an incredible show where you, whatever he was saying, that I didn't necessarily trust him. I didn't necessarily trust Flanagan. And then when I came through the other side, I was like, what was my problem?

• 1:38:16Speaker 00

  But in a reverse story, Ira challenged me in a way where he told me he was wrong. And that was a fun moment for me to have Ira say, you were right.

• 1:38:34Rich Roll?

  Oh, there was something that you disagreed about?

• 1:38:37Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, he, when I was in New York, he came to see me live.

• 1:38:44Speaker 00

  To see my Taylor Dane story.

• 1:38:46Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:38:48Speaker 00

  Because he, he had heard about it. And he was like, oh, maybe we could use that on This American Life. And so he came and saw it and he was like, you know, I, I really enjoy that story. He said, but I don't think it's going to work for This American Life because you have so many moments you act out and your face expressions. He said, I feel like the audience needs to see that to really understand. And I said, I think you're wrong. And he was like, really? He said, why is that? And I said, because when I was a kid and I was listening to Steve Martin or Paula Poundstone

• 1:39:32Speaker 00

  or any of Richard Pryor, any of these comedians, my brain, I wasn't seeing them. I was listening to their albums and I didn't, I was never lost. And I'm sure they were acting things out, making face expressions. But your brain creates.

• 1:39:51Rich Roll?

  Fills in the gaps. Yeah, it allows your imagination.

• 1:39:53Speaker 00

  Every gap.

• 1:39:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:39:54Speaker 00

  And so, and he teases me now that I told him how radio works.

• 1:40:01Rich Roll?

  That's really funny.

• 1:40:02Speaker 00

  But, but I ended up doing that story. He was like, you're right. He said, let's give it a try. And, and so that's.

• 1:40:15Rich Roll?

  And you did it onstage live.

• 1:40:18Speaker 00

  I did it.

• 1:40:18Rich Roll?

  For, for him, for that show.

• 1:40:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, they did a, a live performance that was beamed around into different movie theaters. So you could listen to the audio or you could, I don't know, tune in. I don't even remember how they did it, but you could watch it. Oh, you just went to. How did it happen? That you went to movie theaters?

• 1:40:38Rich Roll?

  I don't remember.

• 1:40:39Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:40Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's on YouTube right now.

• 1:40:41Speaker 00

  Yes.

• 1:40:42Rich Roll?

  You can just watch it.

• 1:40:43Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:43Rich Roll?

  It's epic.

• 1:40:44Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:40:44Rich Roll?

  It's pretty, it's a pretty great story.

• 1:40:47Speaker 00

  And it's true.

• 1:40:48Rich Roll?

  Do you still continue to run into her if she's still around?

• 1:40:51Speaker 00

  Um, I have not.

• 1:40:52Rich Roll?

  My wife ran into her once.

• 1:40:54Speaker 00

  Where? See, she is, it's so easy to trip over Taylor Dane. And that was the other thing is people say, people would tell me, she was a big pop star in the eighties.

• 1:41:05Rich Roll?

  She was.

• 1:41:05Speaker 00

  Nobody in early nineties and people don't know who she is anymore. So the, which isn't true. Um, people, you know, her songs and, you know. But yeah, she's not like in the forefront of pop music right now, but she's a huge part.

• 1:41:24Rich Roll?

  Right. If you're in our general age group, like you, you definitely know who she is.

• 1:41:28Speaker 00

  Yeah. Even if you don't know the name, you know, the songs. And so my point is you don't have to know who Taylor Dane is. People don't know my mother. People don't know my wife or kids, but I still, that's my job is to set up who this person is. And then.

• 1:41:49Rich Roll?

  It just becomes an avatar. Oh, this is a well-known person from a certain period of time.

• 1:41:53Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:41:53Rich Roll?

  And like just the fact that you're perpetually running into her and, and like replaying out this same, you know, dynamic with her time and time again. Like that's it. You don't need to, yeah, it doesn't matter.

• 1:42:04Speaker 00

  Yes. It just became so ridiculous, all of the run-ins and all of the different responses from her. But after, I haven't run into her since I told that story. It was like.

• 1:42:17Rich Roll?

  You purged yourself.

• 1:42:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 1:42:18Rich Roll?

  Like spiritually, this is, this is complete.

• 1:42:20Speaker 00

  Oh, my God, there's so many.

• 1:42:22Rich Roll?

  You, you knew when, that she was going to come out on stage after you tell the story and perform? Or was that a surprise?

• 1:42:27Speaker 00

  Wouldn't you like to know?

• 1:42:28Rich Roll?

  You're not going to say.

• 1:42:29Speaker 00

  No, I'm not going to say.

• 1:42:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, the interaction, like your energy around her when she comes out is, I mean, you kind of do have to see that part.

• 1:42:36Speaker 00

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, she, it's funny because when I, I didn't know I had cancer yet. Um, Ira and I had been planning this performance for a while.

• 1:42:49Speaker 00

  And I truly told him, like, I don't even know if I'm gonna be alive. Like, I was really struggling with C. diff still. And again, didn't know I had, it was so crazy, because I was lying in the hospital, dealing with C. diff for so long. And I remember the doctor saying, like, I'm so confused. Most people that have this are very young, or very old, or very sickly. And he was like, you're not any of those things. Meanwhile, we didn't know I had invasive cancer.

• 1:43:31Rich Roll?

  So essentially, your immune system was so compromised for reasons you didn't know why yet, and that was contributing to the, or

• 1:43:39Speaker 00

  Possibly.

• 1:43:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, had some relationship with the C. diff.

• 1:43:41Speaker 00

  Yeah, I was, I was, I was really, I was struggling. And, and so when Ira was like, you know, the show is coming, and we've been planning to do it, and I'm, I'm heading towards it, but I was like, I might be a skeleton or dead by the time, because, because I was losing half a pound a day. I was really, really having a hard time. But I had met with a nutritionist who thankfully helped me turn that around. And, and along with the help of my doctors and everything. But I really did not think I would be there. And then I was diagnosed after that performance.

• 1:44:25Speaker 00

  And Taylor Dane reached out to me, hearing that I had cancer. And she just, it was so funny, and so nice, because she said, I want you to know, if you ever need anything, call me at any time. And after that conversation, I was, it made me laugh, thinking, what if I really did follow up on that? And I reached out to Taylor Dane all the time. And I was like, hey, it's Tig.

• 1:44:51Rich Roll?

  Checking in.

• 1:44:51Speaker 00

  I can't sleep. Hey, it's Tig. I'm not feeling well. Like, would she really be there for me?

• 1:44:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:44:58Speaker 00

  Um, but, uh, yeah, so she was, and what I loved about her was, you know, so many people deny certain behaviors, or, "I didn't do that, no."

• 1:45:11Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:45:12Speaker 00

  When I met her and she heard the different run-ins that we had, because she didn't, I wasn't known when I was having these run-ins with her, because people were like, "I'm sure she knew who you were," and I was like, "No, this was over years of me being just like an up and coming comedian." But when I met her and she heard that story, all of those stories of running into her, she was like, "Yeah, that sounds like me. Yeah, I probably had a couple of drinks. Yeah, that's..." And I really appreciated that she didn't deny...

• 1:45:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. She wasn't trying to finesse you. Um, but she didn't, she wasn't recalling the experiences either?

• 1:45:51Speaker 00

  No. I, I don't think it was anything interesting or extraordinary in her life. She was just having lunch, or she was just someplace and, you know...

• 1:46:01Rich Roll?

  She was like, "Yeah, I was, I was probably bitchy."

• 1:46:04Speaker 00

  Well, she just was like, "Yeah..."

• 1:46:05Rich Roll?

  Dismissive, or...

• 1:46:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, she was just like, "Yeah, that sounds about right."

• 1:46:08Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:46:08Speaker 00

  Um, and I was like, "Oh, I like that," you know?

• 1:46:11Rich Roll?

  It seems like that show where you performed that, uh, at least based on watching the documentary, like, that was like an anchor. Like, your health is ailing, but like, you needed that, like, as a North Star to work towards. Like, you were, it was like this lifeline. Like, you were gonna make it happen to just prove to yourself that you were still vital.

• 1:46:32Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. I really wanted to be there. I really wanted to do that show, because Ira and I had been talking about it and working on it for so long. And, I mean, I wasn't the only performer, but, um, yeah, it was, it was a driving force for me.

• 1:46:51Rich Roll?

  It seems like comedy, the stand-up comedy world, comedians in general, like, this is, you know, it's reached a, a level of like, cultural saturation and awareness. Like, it's, it's, you've been doing this for a long time, you know, anybody who shows up at any of these clubs, you've known these people forever, right?

• 1:47:10Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:47:10Rich Roll?

  And it seems like we're in a moment where, and maybe it's just my bubble that I'm in, but I don't think so. I think like... There's an interest in this world that that is kind of feels like it's at a high peak right now.

• 1:47:26Speaker 00

  An interest in standup?

• 1:47:28Rich Roll?

  Is that true? Do you think that? Yeah, I just think people are talking about comedians. There's so many specials. These specials are very popular. Like, comedy is in a good place, I think, in terms of how many people are, you know, consuming it and interested in it. Um, you know, there's other stuff going on. There's the intersection of politics into the comedy podcast landscape and all of that that complicates it, I think, but.

• 1:47:55Speaker 00

  Really complicates it.

• 1:47:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, you know, it's weird that like now everyone is super interested in what comedians think about politicians, but, you know, we don't, I don't know how deep we want to go into that. But I'm just saying, from your perspective of being like inside this world and someone who has been inside of it for so long, like, seems like it's a good time to be a comedian.

• 1:48:17Speaker 00

  I guess, in ways, yeah. It is like, as far as, yeah, as you said, people finding an interest and turning out for it and, um, but on the inside of it all, there is such a, there's many fractures that aren't.

• 1:48:40Rich Roll?

  It doesn't feel like a united community in the way that it used to.

• 1:48:43Speaker 00

  Yeah, it feels very politically and socially divided in a way that I don't really recognize. Um, but I'm also, I'm, I'm a little removed from it because I'm not in the scene like I used to be. Uh, I used, I was always confused by comedians. It would be like, yeah, I'd just rather be home with my family. I'd be like, that's weird. Um, but that's how I feel.

• 1:49:15Rich Roll?

  Like, you chose the wrong. Path, like the wrong career for that.

• 1:49:20Speaker 00

  Yeah, I just, it just didn't make sense. Like, why would you not want to be in this comedy club all night, sitting, doing sets, or sitting at the bar, talking to some, like, you know, smelly bearded guy that, you know, you just did a set with, like, and look, I love, I have so many smelly bearded friends.

• 1:49:44Speaker 00

  No, no, no judgment of the different creatures in comedy. I'm one myself, but I just, the division is, it's just not fun and it's, but also, I feel like I'm just not in it because I do go out and do my set. I'm a comedian that walks in the back door moments before I walk on the stage. I don't.

• 1:50:15Rich Roll?

  And then you just do your thing in your back of the door.

• 1:50:19Speaker 00

  I usually do a seven o'clock show so I can be in my house or my hotel room by 8:30. So I can get good sleep, so I can talk to Stephanie on the phone, or in person, or put my kids to bed. That has become my focus. So I know what's going on in the stand-up world to some degree, but I do feel like a little bit of an outsider in the way that I'm, I'm just not in that, deeply in the mix anymore. And as, you know, in the level of outsider-ness that I am, it just, it, it doesn't really look that fun or appealing.

• 1:51:04Speaker 00

  But I don't know. I don't know if it's my age, or my family, or my, I don't know what it is, but I feel a little removed, but I just go in and.

• 1:51:17Speaker 00

  Do my set.

• 1:51:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:18Speaker 00

  Head home.

• 1:51:19Rich Roll?

  But this is still the workmanship. Like, this is an essential aspect of being able to do what you do. You gotta be able to, you know, go to the, go to these places, get up on stage, work your stuff out. But there's like a whole flywheel, like, just looking at your career from like a professional or an entrepreneurship perspective. It's like, you have the stand-up, you have the touring, you have the specials, you have the podcast, then there's documentaries. I want to talk about the upcoming documentary. Like, there's a lot, you know, like, it's, it's now like, really, it's, it's like you're running, you know, like a, like a, you have to run like an enterprise to keep all of this going.

• 1:52:02Rich Roll?

  I'm sure, you know, like, it's, there's a lot of moving pieces, I guess, is what I'm saying. It's not just one thing, like, oh, I'm a stand-up comic and I go to the club and do my deal.

• 1:52:10Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's a much bigger world. And I remember years ago, kind of, in my first few years, I remember Sarah Silverman saying to me, you know, a lot of comedians get caught in just doing stand-up. And then they don't try other things out and you, you might enjoy something else. And so I thought, oh, that's interesting. Cause yeah, I didn't, I never thought like, oh, I'm gonna act or direct or produce. I, I thought that was for somebody else.

• 1:52:49Rich Roll?

  But there was a thing in the earlier days of like, oh, you, like, you do your stand-up and then, you know, one day you'll go on Conan or one of these shows and a lot of people will see you. And then, you know, pilot season will come and hopefully you can get on a sitcom. Like, that was sort of the path, right? For a lot of people.

• 1:53:09Speaker 00

  It was, but I didn't even, I wasn't even aware of that. I didn't think about it because I was so in, it never dawned on me that even though I knew these sitcom actors were stand-ups, I didn't, I just didn't think about, oh, they, I was just in like Texas or Colorado and, but I was following stand-up. I wasn't really following.

• 1:53:37Speaker 00

  Brett Butler's stand-up.

• 1:53:39Rich Roll?

  Well, if there was a division back then, it was like the stand-up, stand-up people who are doing it for the art of stand-up and the people who were using it as a launchpad to get on a TV show.

• 1:53:51Speaker 00

  Well, yeah, when I say Brett Butler's stand-up, I was following Brett Butler's stand-up, but I didn't connect that, oh, these people, these stand-ups got sitcoms that they're the star. I just didn't think about it.

• 1:54:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:02Speaker 00

  And I remember when I first moved to LA and I was doing stand-up and people would say, you know, oh, and then what do you, then what do you, what do you ultimately want? And I was like, what do you mean? Because even doing an open mic, I thought I had made it. I was like, I can't believe I'm doing three minutes of stand-up. It just blew my mind. And yeah, I was asked all the time, then what? But then what? And I was like, then I want to get better. And then, but then what? Then I, well, then I want to do a bigger venue. But then, but what's, and I was like, what are you asking me?

• 1:54:44Speaker 00

  I was so confused. And, and that's what they were looking for was for me to say, oh, then I want my own sitcom. Then I want to have this. And I just, I didn't have that interest. I didn't even move to LA to do stand-up. I moved to LA because my childhood best friends that we've been close and we've moved everywhere where they were going to college and following their dreams and I was a dropout failure just going wherever they went. And then they wanted to move to LA to produce TV and film. And I was like, I'll go with you. And I, but then I saw the stand-up opportunity and then I tried it out and now I'm here 30 years later.

• 1:55:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, there's a lot in that. I mean, first of all, what was the initial impetus to look at that and be like, oh, I want to try that?

• 1:55:38Speaker 00

  Well, I had always been obsessed with stand-up. And it's really funny because most people say, do not move to LA or New York until you're ready as a comedian.

• 1:55:53Speaker 00

  And I had such a different experience of ending up in Los Angeles that I would actually say it's the opposite. Go to LA and New York because there's so much opportunity that you can fly under the radar forever doing open mics at coffee shops and laundromats and bars. And it's not like there's agents, talent scouts at the laundromat.

• 1:56:17Rich Roll?

  But there are a lot of talented people around you who you can learn from.

• 1:56:21Speaker 00

  For sure. And there's a lot of, I think there's more opportunity for people to get on stage and try out new material in smaller towns and other cities. But at the time when I started, I was living, I had just moved from Colorado to Los Angeles. And in Denver, there weren't open mics in all of these random places. There was the main club and they had an open mic. And if you did well, they would ask you back. And to me, that was more intimidating than flying under the radar in Los Angeles. And so, yeah, I just, as

• 1:57:02Speaker 00

  soon as I moved to LA with my friends who were moving here for, to be producers, I opened the LA Weekly. And I was like, oh, my gosh, there's stand up everywhere.

• 1:57:14Rich Roll?

  All over the place.

• 1:57:15Speaker 00

  And so I went and watched for a couple of weeks. And like, everybody who's interested in stand up, I thought, I could do this. And so, yeah, here I am.

• 1:57:23Rich Roll?

  I mean, the second piece of what you shared about not having like this driving vision of where you were headed, like, just like, I'm here to like, be good at this and see if I can get better. There's this tension between your career, whatever, you know, creative thing that you're trying to master is going to lead you in the best direction by just focusing on the quality of what you're doing and being open to opportunities that come. Because ultimately, if the thing is good, like, all of that will come. And on the other side of that, like, having a sense of like, oh, well, I'm here. And here's where I want to head. In order to get there, I have to do all of these things. Like, I think... You kind of need both of those, but there is something beautiful about like

• 1:58:07Rich Roll?

  just focusing on what you can control and then being available for whatever the universe decides to put in your path.

• 1:58:16Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm. I've felt very open and again, I'm thankful that Sarah kind of mentioned, try other things out. And I have, and I've really enjoyed finding out what I don't want to do. That's been such a pleasure to check things out and be like, "Oh, my God, no, thank you."

• 1:58:42Rich Roll?

  What was one of those?

• 1:58:44Speaker 00

  Um, I think directing. I mean, I've enjoyed, I've directed stand-up specials, comedy specials, my own and others. And that's a process that is manageable. My wife and I, I mean, I've directed short films and I directed an episode of my TV show. And my wife and I co-directed a movie called Am I OK? starring Dakota Johnson. And I'm so glad I have that experience. But man, when you are the director of a massive production like that, I was sitting there and somebody would come up and be like,

• 1:59:29Speaker 00

  "Hi, Tig, sorry to bother you. Do you want the glasses here or here?" And I'm like,

• 1:59:38Speaker 00

  I can barely give a shit, you know? Whereas Stephanie is like-

• 1:59:42Rich Roll?

  A thousand times a day of that.

• 1:59:44Speaker 00

  Oh, every department, every department is coming and asking every question. Whereas Stephanie, who is a director through and through, she's like, "Oh, the glasses should be here because the character, you know, she has a whole rea- there's so many rea-" and I'm like-

• 2:00:04Rich Roll?

  You take it from here.

• 2:00:07Speaker 00

  Yeah, like I'm in such a basic way interested in the performance and she is too, but she's also passionate about should it be a pink or red pen that's on the table in this scene and she can tell you why. And it's such a pleasure to watch and it's also a pleasure to realize I don't need to do this again, you know?

• 2:00:32Rich Roll?

  Does that, does it work that way in the home?

• 2:00:35Speaker 00

  What do you mean?

• 2:00:36Rich Roll?

  She knows exactly where the pen should go?

• 2:00:39Speaker 00

  She does and I have to say, I mean, she's often right where that pen should go and it's, she's 15 years younger than me and I'm just floored by her awareness and her taste and her, she's just beyond her years. It's, I'm so thankful, I'm so thankful that she is my spouse.

• 2:01:06Rich Roll?

  Beautiful.

• 2:01:09Rich Roll?

  Documentaries, producing documentaries is something you say yes to though. So talk about the upcoming documentary about the poet.

• 2:01:19Speaker 00

  Andrea Gibson.

• 2:01:24Speaker 00

  It's called Come See Me in the Good Light and it comes out on Apple TV, November 14th. It is, as I said, I've been in this business for almost 30 years and I would say this is the thing I'm most proud of. And Andrea I met in Colorado 25 years ago, something like that. And I was not, and I have never been in the poetry world. When I, I met Andrea, when Andrea was in this group called Vox Feminista, which was

• 2:02:06Speaker 00

  a, a social activist, political activist group in Boulder that was just preaching to the choir, but it was fun to go to these shows because it was, you know, a poet and comedian and.

• 2:02:22Speaker 00

  Musician, just talking about all different sorts of issues. But when I met Andrea backstage, I was like, somebody said, oh, this is Andrea Gibson. Andrea's a poet. And I was, I was like, a poet? You know, Andrea looked so familiar to me, like, from the gay community to the music world, or even comedy, you know, just cool and tattoos. And I just, I was like, poet, interesting. And then Andrea went on stage and I was like, my mind was blown.

• 2:03:00Speaker 00

  The depth that this person went to, to the lightness and humor. I was, I was truly floored. And, and anyway, Andrea was diagnosed with ovarian cancer a few years ago that they beat, and it came back, and they beat, and it came back. And I was on the phone with our mutual friend, Steph Willen, who is a remarkable human being. And we were trying to figure out how to get Andrea's podcast edited and produced.

• 2:03:43Speaker 00

  And all the while, I mean, Andrea had such an incredible group of supportive friends that were trying to help Andrea through this tough time in life. And like, boots on the ground in Boulder with doctor's appointments and trying to get Andrea's will in place and every, just everything. Remarkable friends that loved Andrea so much. But Steph and I were on the phone, again, talking about Andrea's podcast.

• 2:04:23Speaker 00

  And Steph said, you know, I feel like Andrea's life would make a really great documentary. And it was like, hold the phone moment. I could see everything, just a clear path. And I, I'm not somebody, and I guess I wasn't somebody.

• 2:04:46Speaker 00

  Before Andrea passed away, who leaned in the woo-woo world. And I can't say I fully am. But this has really tested me. Because when I say I saw this movie, as soon as Steph suggested this, I was like, this is going to be incredible. This is going to sundance. This is going to, I mean.

• 2:05:11Rich Roll?

  Just came into you fully, fully formed.

• 2:05:15Speaker 00

  I.

• 2:05:15Rich Roll?

  Like a flash of clarity.

• 2:05:18Speaker 00

  I mean it so honestly.

• 2:05:21Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 2:05:21Speaker 00

  I was like, this, yes, yes, yes. And I reached out to five different people who were in the documentary space. And from financiers to directors to producers. And I just said, hey, I have this old scrappy poet pal who is non-binary, stage four ovarian cancer in the mountains of Colorado. If you do the slightest deep dive or look at these clips, you're either in or you're out. And everyone, it was like, oh, interesting. Let me think about this. Or, oh, I know who Andrea is. Or, oh, I'm not familiar.

• 2:06:04Speaker 00

  And the filmmakers who did the Pamela Anderson documentary, actually, the director, Ryan, happened to be at my Largo performance in a weird, bizarre twist of life. He was there, not familiar with me. Just was like, oh, I heard she's funny. Come out and I'm like, I have cancer. But anyway, days later, they were on a flight to Colorado. They got it. And they flew out there and started filming. And he said, look, we can't go to streamers or networks or studios. This is not a sparkly Hollywood project. We have to raise the money independently

• 2:06:48Speaker 00

  and make the most beautiful film we can make. And we did. We made a beautiful film. And Andrea didn't think that they were going to see the film. But Ryan was said, look, kind of behind Andrea and Andrea's wife, Meg Faly, who is also an incredible poet and human being. He said, we don't need our hero to die. We can wrap up this movie. Andrea can see it. We can submit it to Sundance and other festivals without them knowing and see if we get in. So there's no disappointment.

• 2:07:33Speaker 00

  And I've had, I don't know, four or five projects at Sundance and I have never gotten the feedback that it got in unanimously. And this film got in, I think it was 15 people. Jurors and it got in unanimously and and we, we went out for the premiere. And Andrea and Meg came out. We got a Airbnb. We just had a, we called it Snuggle Down. We just sat by the fire, had tea, spent time. Andrea was definitely struggling getting up and down stairs, but went to the premiere. The premiere was just magical. You could feel in the room.

• 2:08:18Speaker 00

  Everyone felt it so deeply and there's so many funny parts. Andrea was one of the funniest people. That was the fun part was everything was so precious to Andrea, but then nothing was too precious and you could really have a deep laugh about really anything with Andrea. And those funny moments, the devastating moments hit so perfectly in that room. And, and, and normally when I went to Sundance, it was always, you had to go to do all this press and go to all this, these important events and other people's screenings. But because we had

• 2:09:01Speaker 00

  Andrea there and just limited time that everyone was very aware of. We just spent so much of the time that weekend in our Airbnb and did very targeted appearances at the HBO party and the talk to all the right people. And then we'd get in the car, go back to Snuggle Down. And when I went back to Toronto to film Starfleet Academy, a couple of days later, I got all this my phone like, can you get on a call? We need to talk like, are you available? And I called Stephanie, I was like, oh, my God, I think something bad like with Andrea.

• 2:09:44Speaker 00

  And she was like, you just have to call. So I call Meg and Andrea, I'm like, because not just them, it was the filmmakers. Everybody was calling and I was like, I was so emotional. What's, what is it? We won, we won Sundance. I was like, what? I like my emotion had to swing so far the other way, but we had no gauge of how our film was doing because we weren't submerged in the Sundance world. And I was like, what? Like, I, I needed a second to process. And Ryan, the director, he said, you have to understand, he was like, films like ours don't win. This is even just not documentaries. It's also scripted.

• 2:10:29Speaker 00

  It's out of all of the

• 2:10:31Rich Roll?

  All the movies.

• 2:10:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. And I was like, it gives me chills right now. It was so, I knew it was a great film, but I thought we were going to be like a sleeper indie film, you know, that, that went to Sundance.

• 2:10:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were there for the premiere. I mean, Sundance is two weeks, it goes over two weekends, right? So you weren't there the whole time. You were there for the premiere screening and then you had to get back to work.

• 2:10:52Speaker 00

  Yeah, we spent a weekend there.

• 2:10:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. So there was a whole other week or whatever. And then the fall, then they have the award ceremony.

• 2:10:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:10:59Rich Roll?

  So, like Sundance was a memory at that point.

• 2:11:03Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:11:04Rich Roll?

  And you're thinking, this news can only be bad. How long, how long after that did they pass away?

• 2:11:11Speaker 00

  Sundance was January and Andrea, I guess it was six months later. Andrea died July 14th.

• 2:11:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:18Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:11:20Rich Roll?

  Well, now I'm very enthusiastic to see the film. I wasn't familiar with them, but when they passed away, the outpouring of support online was unbelievable. And I felt like I should know who this person is. There were so many people expressing their stories and experiences with Andrea. And I was like, well, obviously this person, obviously meant a lot to a lot of people and artistically stood for something very powerful.

• 2:11:53Speaker 00

  Yeah, yes. You know, you hear poetry and you have like a particular idea.

• 2:11:57Rich Roll?

  How dare you call yourself a poet?

• 2:11:59Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:12:00Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 2:12:01Speaker 00

  But Andrea was so, you know, you don't need a college degree to...

• 2:12:07Rich Roll?

  Oh, you're a poet. I see.

• 2:12:09Speaker 00

  Yeah, it wasn't that vibe. It was like, you know, in the documentary, Andrea talks about basically knowing five words and rearranging them with each different poem. And, but that was kind of the beauty, was how accessible Andrea was and how deeply they could hit you.

• 2:12:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:33Speaker 00

  There was a video that went, maybe you saw it, The Love Letter from the Afterlife?

• 2:12:40Rich Roll?

  I think so.

• 2:12:40Speaker 00

  Where Andrea, it was Andrea's final interview. And the host had Andrea read a poem to Meg, Andrea's wife, face to face of A Love Letter from the Afterlife. And it was, it's so beautiful. It's so moving. And yeah, people are just sending that around. And, and then I was, I was there in like that end of life moment. And then having Andrea die and then Maria Shriver, Oprah Winfrey,

• 2:13:24Speaker 00

  all of these people are talking about that scrappy little poet that I met backstage at, it's called Old Main, this theater on the CU campus in Boulder and just thinking, God, that is, that's something. Didn't see this coming at all.

• 2:13:47Rich Roll?

  And now there's going to be this movie.

• 2:13:49Speaker 00

  Well, that's the other crazy thing is the movie hasn't even come out yet. And it's so exciting to think of how many people will learn about Andrea. But it's also so deeply meaningful to me when people that I know call me and they're like, I had no idea. Or sharing that with somebody that I know personally that didn't know or read or wasn't aware. And they're like, like my childhood friend who lives in Dallas reached out.

• 2:14:30Speaker 00

  She was like, Tig, I just, I feel robbed that I didn't get to know this person. But just that my friend is appreciating it now is I don't have any feeling of like, oh, you know, because sometimes people are like, oh, well, I liked them before. Like, oh, you're jumping on now. Like, I don't, I mean. I'm excited for anybody to learn about Andrea Gibson.

• 2:14:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this relative, at least from my experience, like relatively obscure person who posthumously, like immediately becomes like this person that everyone's talking about.

• 2:15:10Speaker 00

  Well, my wife Stephanie was saying, she goes, you know, it's so interesting is there's only a few poets that are known by name. And she was like, and Andrea Gibson just cemented

• 2:15:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:26Speaker 00

  themselves into that list. And I mean, Andrea broke through on a massive level when Glennon Doyle and Abby Wambach had Andrea on there. And Andrea was also well-known in the poetry world, was like a full-on rock star. Put out eight books, I think, and sold out rock clubs and theaters around the world, but hadn't broken through on the level that they did after, after that.

• 2:16:06Speaker 00

  So, I mean, Andrea bought a house and was very successful, but just was not...

• 2:16:15Rich Roll?

  The degree of difficulty for a poet to break through into, you know, mainstream cultural awareness is like, it's an impossible task.

• 2:16:22Speaker 00

  It's nearly impossible.

• 2:16:23Rich Roll?

  Amanda Gorman is the only one who's been able to do it.

• 2:16:25Speaker 00

  It's nearly impossible.

• 2:16:26Rich Roll?

  In decades, essentially, so.

• 2:16:29Speaker 00

  Yeah, it's, it's wild. When I, like, I wish I could, I wish I had footage of me meeting Andrea all those years ago. And if somebody could say, and by the way, the world is gonna know about that poet, you know?

• 2:16:44Rich Roll?

  And now they are.

• 2:16:45Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:16:47Rich Roll?

  Back to me, Tig.

• 2:16:48Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:16:49Rich Roll?

  You got spinal fusion surgery.

• 2:16:51Speaker 00

  I did.

• 2:16:52Rich Roll?

  How long ago?

• 2:16:52Speaker 00

  2019.

• 2:16:54Rich Roll?

  So six years ago. I'm at five months

• 2:16:58Speaker 00

  How are you doing?

• 2:16:59Rich Roll?

  recovery, and I need advice. What should I be doing?

• 2:17:04Rich Roll?

  I'm in this weird period where, you know, I've recovered enough where I'm, oh, I'm kind of, I'm starting to feel a little normal again. And then I'll be like, oh, whoa, like, I'm not normal at all. Or like, suddenly I'll have a weird pain and I'm like, oh, shouldn't that not be happening? Like, so I just want to

• 2:17:23Speaker 00

  That's the worst.

• 2:17:24Rich Roll?

  trade notes with other people that have had this and get a little counsel.

• 2:17:28Speaker 00

  It's really scary because for so long you're told, do not get back surgery, right? Like,

• 2:17:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:35Speaker 00

  I mean,

• 2:17:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I spent 10 years trying to avoid it.

• 2:17:37Speaker 00

  Right.

• 2:17:37Rich Roll?

  And now I wish I had gotten it sooner.

• 2:17:39Speaker 00

  That's where I was. And then you get it and then your body doesn't feel right or the same. And then any pain or discomfort, you're like, they botched it. I'm screwed, you know, like, that's what I went through. And, um, and then one day, something inside of me,

• 2:17:59Speaker 00

  because I was told, you know, to walk and keep moving, stay active and, uh, don't push it. But, uh, something in me was like, I'm going to try treading water. Because I thought that would be a way to strengthen my body without putting too much pressure on my spine. And so I started doing that and I started at 15 minutes at a time.

• 2:18:25Rich Roll?

  How long into the recovery?

• 2:18:29Speaker 00

  I was probably, uh, maybe three or four months. I can't remember exactly. So somebody could be like, ha, caught you. It was six months. I don't know. Um, but it was, it was pretty.

• 2:18:49Speaker 00

  I don't know. It was, it was a few months later.

• 2:18:54Speaker 00

  I had, I was wearing the back brace. I was doing slow walks around my neighborhood. But I just thought, I need to like strengthen my whole body. And, and so I started treading for 15 minutes.

• 2:19:11Speaker 00

  And I was so blown away. I had never treaded water for 15 minutes. I had no reason to do that. And I was like, wow, I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep treading water for 15 minutes. And so I started doing that. And then, once that became like, no big deal, I was like, I'm gonna do it for 30 minutes. I'm gonna do it for 45. And then I got up to an hour. And it became this meditative thing for me. I don't put headphones in or anything. I just tread. And I really felt a difference. No doctor told me to do this.

• 2:19:55Speaker 00

  Even if people haven't had back surgery, I highly recommend treading water. It's not the only exercise I do, but it's, it's a full body exercise that I really, really feel strengthened. Just every part of me that started making walking and everything else feel a lot better and smoother and, uh, cause I really, like I said, it's just a full body workout.

• 2:20:25Rich Roll?

  All I can think about right now is the fact that, uh, I've now decided that the title of this podcast is gonna be, Tig Notaro is Treading Water.

• 2:20:36Speaker 00

  I mean, it applies.

• 2:20:39Rich Roll?

  People will be making their own inferences from that. Why not just like swim or kick with a kickboard? Like the treading water thing, like that's a, I've never heard anyone talk about that. I mean, that's something like you do, like old ladies do, or like water polo players do.

• 2:20:55Speaker 00

  I'm an old lady.

• 2:20:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I know, we're not that old, come on.

• 2:20:58Speaker 00

  I know, but we have gray hair, Rich.

• 2:21:01Rich Roll?

  No swimming, though?

• 2:21:02Speaker 00

  Uh, no, I mean, a kickboard, you're relying on the board, you know? I want my whole body.

• 2:21:09Rich Roll?

  Your whole thing.

• 2:21:10Speaker 00

  I hope one of my.

• 2:21:10Rich Roll?

  You're still doing this?

• 2:21:12Speaker 00

  I do.

• 2:21:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:21:14Speaker 00

  But not as consistently. I would say before I was doing it three days a week. And. I've also made up little exercises and moves that I do while I'm treading. And look, even if I'm not doing the actual motion of treading, I'll sometimes switch it up and just swim for a little bit and then tread. But when I get out of the pool, my spine and my body, my whole body just feels, I feel so powerful after I tread for an hour. And now it's more so if I'm, you know, if a hotel I'm staying at has a pool,

• 2:21:59Speaker 00

  I'll tread if I have time. Or we have a pool at our office, which is our old starter home. And we have a pool there and so I'll go over there and tread. But it's not as consistent, but I still, I still do it and I love it. And my co-host Fortune started treading and she's like, she's like, man, she was like, I love this.

• 2:22:21Rich Roll?

  This is, this could be a whole like trend.

• 2:22:24Speaker 00

  Well, we have listeners because we talk about it.

• 2:22:26Rich Roll?

  Oh, you do?

• 2:22:27Speaker 00

  Fortune will be like, yeah, I was treading this morning. And, um, and we have listeners now that will write in or tag us and be like, hey, I'm treading now. I love it.

• 2:22:37Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's so interesting. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna send a video of you, to you of me treading water.

• 2:22:42Speaker 00

  Well, it's funny because I did some interview. I, I can't remember what it was for, but the guy was like, the interviewer was like, we want to interview you when you're doing something that you love to do. And I said, well, I love to tread water. And he was like, all right. So I'm like in the pool with this interviewer who's treading with me. But I, you know, I also, I've started doing weight training and, um, I used to do long distance cycling. I'm very much into.

• 2:23:15Speaker 00

  Endurance, I'm nowhere near you. But like, I would do long distance cycling of like 50 to 100 miles a day.

• 2:23:23Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. 50 to 100 miles a day?

• 2:23:25Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, yeah.

• 2:23:26Rich Roll?

  That's legit.

• 2:23:28Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:23:28Rich Roll?

  How long ago was that?

• 2:23:30Speaker 00

  I did that-

• 2:23:31Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's for real cycling.

• 2:23:32Speaker 00

  Yeah, yeah. From the time I was 28 to 32.

• 2:23:37Rich Roll?

  Is this like a boulder thing?

• 2:23:40Speaker 00

  No, actually, my uncle, who ate the key lime pie, he is a long distance cyclist. And I remember going to visit and looking at his biking books and being like, "That's cool." Like, planning a trip around cycling? And I've done those AIDS rides.

• 2:23:59Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 2:24:00Speaker 00

  And I've also cycled across France. And my friend and I, we planned this trip. And then, you know, would stop along the way at cute little cafes. But through the countryside of France. And then we'd stay in chateaus and take bubble baths and clawfoot tubs and to treat ourselves. But I found that very meditative was because I wasn't, I didn't have headphones in. I use that time, like I do with treading, to kind of, I always say, "Connect the dots in my life." I really use that time, even though it's meditative, I use that time to really think about what I want to do

• 2:24:44Speaker 00

  and what I'm, you know, just like, big ideas kind of come to me during that. And, but I would, I did a show in Portland, Oregon, and cycled with another comedian to Seattle. And we met this guy on the way there. And he let us sleep in his houseboat that he wasn't sleeping in. I mean, we certainly probably weren't terribly safe. But did shows in Portland, cycled to Seattle, did shows there. I couldn't possibly do it, nor do I have an interest in doing that anymore. But one of my rides was on the East Coast. And I was going, and it's that endurance thing

• 2:25:29Speaker 00

  that has really helped me in my life.

• 2:25:33Speaker 00

  I was going uphill and it was going for a long time. People were getting off of their bikes, resting, walking their bikes up the hill. And I was like, I'm not getting off. I'm just gonna go slow and steady and I'm just, I have no idea how high this hill is. It was eight miles. And it was the greatest feeling when I got to the top. And it was also that thought of like, I'm so glad. I had no idea how long this hill.

• 2:26:05Rich Roll?

  How long it was gonna be.

• 2:26:06Speaker 00

  Yeah, but I feel like that's that, that was before 2012. And I feel like that's that thing in me that I think helped me push through the 2012 time is I can, I can do it.

• 2:26:22Rich Roll?

  Lock in, endure.

• 2:26:23Speaker 00

  I can do it.

• 2:26:24Rich Roll?

  Uh, deal with a degree of suffering for an extended period of time.

• 2:26:29Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:26:29Rich Roll?

  This is, this is a life skill.

• 2:26:31Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:26:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:26:33Rich Roll?

  It's rewarding too. And just the process of doing it is so therapeutic mentally, you know, and grounding.

• 2:26:41Speaker 00

  Mm hmm.

• 2:26:42Rich Roll?

  But cycling takes up a lot of time.

• 2:26:44Speaker 00

  It does, it does. But, um, and again, I, I don't miss it. I can romanticize about those days and it's fun to be like, yeah, I did that. But it doesn't really, we, we, we're in Colorado a lot and we cycle as a family, but in such a casual way.

• 2:27:05Rich Roll?

  A different way.

• 2:27:06Speaker 00

  Yeah. But, um, I, I'm very curious, like with what you've done, as, as much as it feels good to do that kind of extreme, long distance, long haul kind of sport and exercise, that there's also talk of like, your body also just registers it as stress and cortisol levels and what's your feeling on, on all?

• 2:27:36Rich Roll?

  I think that, yeah, it certainly can be that. Like you have to really pay attention to how well you're recovering because you can easily tip over into that state where you're just progressively depleting yourself and, and, you know.

• 2:27:55Rich Roll?

  Dysregulating your hormones and everything. And the older you get, the more recovery you get. So you can't handle the load as well as you could when you're younger. I love it. Obviously, right now, I can't do it. I hope to one day be able to get back into it. Not that I have some big desire to compete. Like, I don't feel like I have anything to prove.

• 2:28:16Speaker 00

  And so what does that look like?

• 2:28:18Rich Roll?

  But I want to feel good in my body. You know, and there is something, you know, if I'm not, you know, I don't have to go out and do it all day. But like, to be able to go out and feel fit and, you know, confidently ride up a hill and feel good, you know, all of that. Like, I miss all of that. So I don't foresee a situation in which I'm going to be like, training 20 to 25 hours a week again, like I was. Like, that just doesn't fit within my life, and it's not that interesting to me anymore. I feel like that was an important and formative experience in my life that taught me a lot and was extremely meaningful and valuable to me. And I could go back to that well and tap it. But I think I've learned most of the lessons that I needed to learn from that.

• 2:29:02Rich Roll?

  And now I want to learn in other and different ways, rather than get, stay stuck in that lane. But I still love it. And it makes me feel like me when I'm doing it. And not being able to do it, you know, doesn't, I don't feel like myself. But I don't miss, like, being exhausted all the time. Because, you know, I know what it's like to, I've spent many, many years of my life, like, training for specific performance goals. And what that requires to do it well is, you know, kind of living in a, this liminal, kind of zombie-like state for extended periods of time.

• 2:29:38Rich Roll?

  And there's too many other things that I'm doing right now that are too interesting and meaningful to me to make that kind of sacrifice.

• 2:29:48Speaker 00

  But what is your, like, I know you want to feel good, but like, if you're like, if I could just be doing this and this and this, I think I'd be good with where I am.

• 2:29:59Rich Roll?

  What do you mean? What are you asking? I feel like this question is sort of like the person who was asking you, like, what, you know, so you're doing the stand-up and for what and what's next?

• 2:30:07Speaker 00

  Well, I guess you're saying you don't want to do, like, you don't want to be as extreme and you're also in this recovery phase.

• 2:30:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I'm like, I turn 59 next week, like, who are we kidding?

• 2:30:22Speaker 00

  Mm-hmm, but you're not feeling yourself still?

• 2:30:25Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 2:30:26Speaker 00

  So what, what would make you feel like, okay, I'm back to myself?

• 2:30:31Rich Roll?

  I would like to be able to show up and run a marathon for fun with people and feel fit enough to be able to do that, where it's not like some giant ordeal and be kind of adventure-ready when a friend calls and says, oh, we're gonna hike the Grand Canyon or we're gonna go do whatever thing this weekend. I don't feel like, oh, I'm not in a position to be able to do that physically.

• 2:30:57Speaker 00

  And has your doctor said, oh, you know, in time, you'll likely be able to?

• 2:31:02Rich Roll?

  No, my surgeon is very conservative and I asked him, like, two months ago about swimming and he's like, no, not yet. Like, he has me on a very slow roll with this and I also said to him, so how about running? Like, am I gonna be able to get back to that? And he basically looked at me and said, well, there's just some things that, you know, you're gonna have to think about that, you know, that expire. You know, he was very non-optimistic about that. I know other people who've had spinal fusion surgery have gotten back to running, so I feel confident that if I don't make mistakes and I'm patient and, you know, build a new foundation slowly over time, that I'll be able to get back

• 2:31:46Rich Roll?

  to doing that. But, you know, who knows? So that was the question I had for you, like, how long did it take before you felt like? You weren't thinking about the fact that you like have this pain or that, you know, maybe you were fragile and going to break?

• 2:32:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, I, you know, when you're saying that your doctor said no swimming yet, it makes me think, eh, maybe I wasn't doing that at three months. It could have been six months. Again, I don't know. I don't remember. I don't, I'm not clear on all the markers. But I remember for a long time, looking at people on bikes, thinking, how are they doing that? You know, things seemed absolutely impossible. And yeah, I don't have a clear memory of how long it took me. I mean, I still, I'm very careful about how much I lift and how I lift,

• 2:32:44Speaker 00

  which of course you should be regardless of any sort of surgery. But it's always in there. Like, I gotta, I gotta be careful, you know? I don't, I don't have the body that other people have. But I do have a body and I have come a long way with my body.

• 2:33:06Rich Roll?

  Which vertebrae were fused?

• 2:33:09Speaker 00

  It was the, um, yeah, I wish I was lower.

• 2:33:14Rich Roll?

  It's lower, okay.

• 2:33:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:16Rich Roll?

  I don't know how helpful this has been to me.

• 2:33:18Speaker 00

  I know, I know.

• 2:33:22Rich Roll?

  Down low, not up in your neck.

• 2:33:24Speaker 00

  No, it was down low. What about you? Yours was low, right?

• 2:33:28Rich Roll?

  Low, L5, S1.

• 2:33:29Speaker 00

  Yeah. I was, I mean, I've seen videos of you. You were up and about pretty quickly.

• 2:33:38Rich Roll?

  I was walking around. I mean, but that's really all I'm doing still. I've kept it pretty. Low key, yeah.

• 2:33:46Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:33:47Rich Roll?

  Because I just think like, the only thing I can do is screw it up. You know, and if, and my compulsive addictive nature is to like, oh, I walked a mile today. I'll walk two tomorrow and then I'll walk three the next day. You know, it's like, that's what I want to do. And so I'm trying to see what it feels like to do the opposite of that. Because I think ultimately it will pay dividends over the long haul.

• 2:34:13Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 2:34:13Rich Roll?

  So I've had to restrain myself, but I did, you know, so it was pouring rain last night, right? And I've got this little home gym and I was gonna go, it was, I woke up super early, it was dark. And I went into my, like slid the door open to my little gym. And it was wet on the like rubber floor that I have in there. And I slipped and I fell over the bench. And I have not, I've been so careful about everything. And I was like, oh, my God, did I just break my, I literally thought I had just ruined the whole thing. It was the, one of the scariest things, yeah. I think I'm fine, like I got up and I was like, I think I'm okay, but.

• 2:34:51Speaker 00

  It does feel like your body is Jenga.

• 2:34:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:34:55Speaker 00

  Uh, for a while, that is terrifying. After my mother tripped, I've become very, I don't casually walk into a bathroom or in or out of a shower or bathtub, like I'm.

• 2:35:09Rich Roll?

  I know. Now we're having old people conversation.

• 2:35:14Speaker 00

  Look, I'm not the one that's 59, okay? I'm only 54.

• 2:35:17Rich Roll?

  I know, I know.

• 2:35:19Speaker 00

  I'm a youngster.

• 2:35:19Rich Roll?

  For the record, you are much younger than me.

• 2:35:21Speaker 00

  Much younger.

• 2:35:22Rich Roll?

  And, uh, yes, we're, we all know this. All right, I gotta let you go. What's the documentary called?

• 2:35:30Speaker 00

  Come See Me in the Good Light.

• 2:35:32Rich Roll?

  In November 14th.

• 2:35:34Speaker 00

  On Apple TV.

• 2:35:35Rich Roll?

  Apple TV.

• 2:35:36Speaker 00

  Please make a note of it and watch.

• 2:35:38Rich Roll?

  Congrats on that.

• 2:35:39Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:35:39Rich Roll?

  That's super cool. I look forward to seeing it.

• 2:35:42Speaker 00

  And thank you for having me, I really do.

• 2:35:44Rich Roll?

  This was great.

• 2:35:45Speaker 00

  I, I love what you do.

• 2:35:48Rich Roll?

  I'm not scared of you anymore.

• 2:35:49Speaker 00

  Oh, good. I've become a little scared of you.

• 2:35:52Rich Roll?

  No, this is, this was delightful. I really appreciate the level of presence that you brought to this experience. Thank you.

• 2:36:00Speaker 00

  Thank you.

• 2:36:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All right, TigNation.com, signing off.

• 2:36:05Speaker 00

  Yes, indeed.

• 2:36:05Rich Roll?

  Until next time. Thanks. Can I come and see you at Largo?

• 2:36:08Speaker 00

  You can come see me anywhere.

• 2:36:09Rich Roll?

  All right. I'm gonna do that.

• 2:36:11Speaker 00

  Great.

• 2:36:11Rich Roll?

  All right, let's tread water.

• 2:36:13Speaker 00

  Would love it.

• 2:36:23Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at RichRoll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or a comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors,

• 2:37:07Rich Roll?

  who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to RichRoll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at RichRoll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shanice Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created, all the way back in 2012, by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis.

• 2:37:51Rich Roll?

  Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.