The Best Of 2015 – Part II

Welcome to Part II of our third annual Best of the RRP Anthology series. If you haven’t already, I suggest listening to The Best of 2015 — Part I first. This is a compendium of some of my favorite conversations of 2015. It's our way of saying thanks, giving back, expressing gratitude and catapulting you into the new year with the information and inspiration required to make 2016 your best year yet. I appreciate you. Here’s to an absolutely extraordinary 2016. Enjoy the listen. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:05Speaker 01

  Without a doubt, processed meat is horrible for you. You can't get away from that fact. So processed meat, bacon, you know, the Subway sandwich, cold cuts, horrible for you. Related with diabetes, cancer, life expectancy, heart disease, horrible for you.

• 1:22Rich Roll?

  That's Dr. Garth Davis, and this is part two of a very special Best of 2015 edition of the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:44Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. How you doing? I am your host. My name is Rich Roll. Welcome one, welcome all, to part two of our third annual Best of the Rich Roll Podcast anthology series. If you haven't already, I suggest listening to part one of the Best of 2015 first, and then tuning into this one. So what are we doing here? Well, once again, this is a compendium of some, not all, but some, of my favorite conversations of 2015. It is our way of saying... Thank you. Our way of giving back, our way of trying to help catapult you into the new year with the information and the inspiration you need to make it your best

• 2:25Rich Roll?

  year yet. So, once again, it's been an absolutely incredible year, and this is just a simple way of me saying, "I appreciate you guys." And here's to an extraordinary 2016.

• 2:47Rich Roll?

  All right, so let's kick things off with a question, because, look, it's one thing to thrive on a plant-based diet as a skinny endurance athlete, a guy like me, but what about sports that place a premium on size, speed, agility, power, quickness, and just plain brute force? Sports like football. Is it possible to compete in the NFL, not as a punt returner, or as a quarterback, or even a running back, but as a defensive lineman, a position where only the absolute biggest, baddest, strongest, and fastest survive? Well, let's meet David Carter, aka The 300 Pound Vegan.

• 3:26Speaker 02

  We were in our apartment, and we were watching, we were binge-watching Netflix, all the vegan documentaries on Netflix. What a night, right?

• 3:35Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 3:36Speaker 02

  So, we were watching.

• 3:37Rich Roll?

  I take it this is Paige's idea?

• 3:39Speaker 02

  No, no. Well, it was mine. I'm a little nerd, right? I'm a nerd on the inside.

• 3:45Rich Roll?

  But what motivated you to even want to watch those documentaries to begin with?

• 3:48Speaker 02

  Yeah, Paige. But we were watching Forks Over Knives, one of the many that we watched. And the doc was on there, and he was talking about how, at the time I was suffering, let me go back, at the time I was suffering from tendonitis. I was soaking the bathtub and I would try to lift myself up out of the bathtub and it felt like somebody would take a bat to my elbows and I just, I would like almost collapse. And the pain was so intense and so sharp and it was tendonitis. Were you getting like injections for that and on like a battery of meds or? Yeah, I had, they were giving me, not injections, but they were giving me Celebrex or Naproxen or something like that.

• 4:30Speaker 02

  They were like, it's just tendonitis, you know, it's nothing, you know, the only way you can, you can get rid of that is Celebrex. And Celebrex, man, that stuff's so bad for you, like, I hope I don't get sued for saying that, but that stuff's so bad for you, causes heart problems and all that kinda crap, but um anyways, and it wasn't doing anything. And arthritis too, right? You got arthritis. Yeah, arthritis, high blood pressure, probably from the medication and what I was eating, but you know, that stuff, man, it's so bad. At age like twenty-five or? Yes, that's the most scary part, right? And I'm like, why, how the hell do I have high blood pressure, tendonitis and arthritis? Or like, I feel like arthritis coming on, I'm twenty-five years old, like, I've lived like, hopefully a quarter of my life. Right.

• 5:15Speaker 02

  So, uh, yeah, man, I'm getting out of the bathtub and it's like so much pain, elbows hurting, tendonitis really bad. We're watching the documentary Forks Over Knives and the doc goes on, he goes, uh, the, the cause of inflammation tendonitis, people, all these people are suffering from tendonitis is milk. And like, milk and, and meat and dairy is causing all this, it causes inflammation in the joints. And then I was like, wow, is it really that simple? Like, am I, is that the reason why? I was like, I need to lay off the meat. Then we kept watching the documentaries, like a cow, not cow spirits, he wasn't out yet. Um, Frankensteer and where the meat was coming from and we were seeing, I was seeing how they spray all the cattle with pesticides and they, and eighty percent

• 6:00Speaker 02

  uh, to keep the flies off of them and you know all that crap that's in the pesticides? And eighty percent of antibiotics that are supposed to go to humans, go to animals. Like all the ones that FDA or whoever didn't clear, they go to the animals and they feed them because they're walking around their own shit. And so, you know, and they eat their own shit and they, they cannibalize the cows and feed them cow blood from the other cows that died. And the other cows that died, died of just natural, not natural sickness, but sickness. They feed them those cows. So, I was like, man. It makes sense why I'm not at, you know, the top of my game right now. Why my tendonitis is coming on like it is, or, you know.

• 6:41Speaker 02

  So after that, you know, I went vegan and literally like.

• 6:46Rich Roll?

  That's amazing, though, because I would think that at that moment, you're also thinking, yeah, but I can't do, I'm in the NFL, man.

• 6:52Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:53Rich Roll?

  I can't like, I hear that, but like, if I go vegan, I'm going to lose all my muscle. Like, how am I going to ever stay strong? How am I going to keep the weight? You're having trouble keeping the weight on as it was.

• 7:03Speaker 02

  I was like, well, first of all.

• 7:04Rich Roll?

  That's a pretty terrifying prospect or pretty ballsy.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, it was. I was scared. I was scared. I was really scared. But I was like, you know what? I was like, man, forget it. You know, like, it's sad that right now it's like this. It's like if I, I can go vegan or I can just suffer and like have tendonitis and probably die at like the average death of a football player is 56 years old. And most people don't know that. And that's from eating all that crap and taking.

• 7:34Rich Roll?

  Heart disease, I mean, mostly heart disease.

• 7:35Speaker 02

  Heart disease and stroke. A lot of guys stroke. And so I was like, you know what? Forget it. I'd rather have quality of life.

• 7:46Rich Roll?

  Next up is Michael Greger, M.D., the wizard behind nutritionfacts.org, which is my favorite online destination for all things nutrition. He's also a newly minted New York Times bestselling author by way of his groundbreaking, recently released book, How Not to Die, which is this exhaustive 600-plus-page encyclopedic examination of how nutritional and lifestyle interventions can help prevent and even reverse the top 15 causes of premature death in America. Have a listen.

• 8:19Speaker 03

  So much of science is now follow the money. And so what do you do with, you know, an Egg Board-funded study or the, you know, Calhoun's Beef Association? You don't know. The problem with conflicts of interest is these financial conflicts of interest is that you don't know what to do with them because, I mean, basically, the big controversy is, did they or did they not divulge their conflicts of interest, right? I mean, that's kind of the big, you know, you know, oh, did they get money? Was it, did it meet a certain level? A lot of journals be like, if you can get $5,000, but if you get $5,001, all of a sudden, you have to list that you got the funding for some stuff.

• 9:04Speaker 03

  But that's not, for me, that's not the issue. The issue isn't-

• 9:07Rich Roll?

  Does the science hold up?

• 9:08Speaker 03

  The fact that there's this money in science in the first place. I mean, the fact that there's a, the conflict of interest is there, not whether it's disclosed or not. And it's because you get a study, you get a study that show nuts is great and it's done by the Walnut Commission. And you're saying, okay, is it, I mean, did they make stuff up? Did they just design a study to give a certain point? Or is it totally a great study and they just, it wouldn't have gotten done and we should be thanking the Walnut Commission because otherwise, we wouldn't know about the wonders of walnuts, right? And so, basically, it just gives you, makes you think again, makes you really dive into

• 9:49Speaker 03

  the, you know, materials and methods and be like, okay, did they put this study together in a way to get some kind of desired result?

• 9:57Rich Roll?

  And how often, when you look at such a study, do you come to the conclusion like, oh, no, it actually, it holds up. I understand there is this conflict of interest built into it, but nonetheless, I can still see the value of this? Or is it almost invariably a situation where you're discarding it?

• 10:15Speaker 03

  Well, it's, you know, often, rather than discarding it, I actually, you know, do a video about it and show exactly what they did. Like, this is how, you know, the BOLD study, this beef study, they talk around how you can add, you know, lean beef to a diet and your cholesterol gets better. And what'd they do? They added lean beef to a diet in which they cut out cheese and chicken so much, so you actually drop saturated fat below, that adding, so you added beef to the diet, but you cut out so much cheese and chicken, that you actually have less saturated fat and the cholesterol went down. Surprise, surprise. I mean, it's just such kind of blatant stuff that anyone, even taking a second look at it, would, I mean, would just pop right up as, like-

• 10:57Speaker 03

  Kind of just this outrageous manipulation, but he gets tons of press.

• 11:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, people don't, nobody, nobody gives it a second look, other than people like yourself. And, and certainly, you know, unless you have a really kind of, you know, sort of unusual journalist who's willing to kind of do that kind of work, it ends up in the media. So there's this enmeshed kind of media relationship that translates into, you know, butter is back on the cover of Time Magazine and, you know, all this sort of stuff that, that occurs, or just a sort of dismissal of the latest World Health Organization recommendations on, on red meat and, and processed meats, right? Which we can talk about a little bit, I suppose.

• 11:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, one more, you know, one other thing with the conflicts that makes it even more difficult is that beyond the financial conflicts, there are kind of like ideological conflicts. Or, so for example, there's this amazing research on the spice saffron, right? That, and, and it's all independently funded, but there are all these Iranian scientists. And saffron is like this major export out of, I mean, that's like the number one producer in the world. They have this great national pride over this stuff. Is it possible they're tweaking results? I mean, I, it would be nice to just get some independent, even though they're not getting money from the saffron industry, right? Or if you have all these New Zealand kiwi fruits are great studies, you're just like, okay.

• 12:19Speaker 03

  But I would love to see a, you know, a Scottish kiwi fruit study showing how great, you know, I mean, come on.

• 12:26Rich Roll?

  But is there such thing as an independent study? I mean, somebody's got to pay for this stuff, right? So how does that work?

• 12:31Speaker 03

  It should be publicly funded, right? I mean, so the, that's what we have the National Institutes of Health for. I mean, we, you know, that this is a public good, and so we should have public funding. Otherwise, we run into all these problems.

• 12:43Rich Roll?

  But what does that look like? I mean, how many of these studies really are publicly funded? There certainly can't be adequate amount of funding to really do the extent of nutritional research that I would imagine you would prefer.

• 12:54Speaker 03

  And that's right. And that's why we, and that's why we have these problems. I mean, so, you know, there's, you know, you get some, you know, there's these, you know, great folks out there like David Katz at Yale, who's accepted Eggboard money to run these egg studies. And, you know, you talk to him about it, and he's like...

• 13:12Speaker 03

  Where do you get money? Like, if you don't accept money from, you know, corporations these days, how are you gonna fund your, I mean, you just can't fund a research team. Where are you gonna pay your grad students from? I mean, it's just like, you know, I mean, it's a real issue. And so, the answer-

• 13:26Rich Roll?

  And David Katz is one of the good guys.

• 13:28Speaker 03

  Absolutely. No, no. Tremendous respect for him, right? But, it's like, you gotta deal with reality. You gotta deal with, you know, the, you know, and so it's all nice for us to say, "Oh, we should be all independent," but it's like, okay, well, you gotta get the money from somewhere. It's interesting, some of these studies were like, literally out of scientists' own pocket. Like, they thought they had this really great idea, they wanted to, you know, see if it worked, and so they did it themselves, you know? But, with no corporate budget driving its promotion, it just gets buried in some dusty stacks of some, you know, library basement and never sees the light of day. And so I saw it as my kind of role in the world, is to take all that amazing science that was done, even

• 14:11Speaker 03

  if it gets past the funding stage, but then just got lost to the world. Because, you know, for the same reason you don't see ads on TV for sweet potatoes. There's just no kind of profit motive to get it out to the world.

• 14:23Rich Roll?

  Right. So, so what's your reaction when you see something in the media that you feel is, you know, not an accurate representation of what's going on? Like, right now, you know, let's just talk about the low carb craze. Everybody's all about low carb, ketosis is the greatest thing ever, like, all this sort of stuff, right? And that's very, very popular right now. And there's a lot of people who are espousing the benefits of this, not just for weight loss, but for health. And, you know, to the extent that it makes it on the cover of Time Magazine.

• 14:53Speaker 03

  Amen.

• 14:54Rich Roll?

  Saturated fat-

• 14:55Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, I mean, so-

• 14:56Rich Roll?

  All this sort of thing.

• 14:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. I try to stay as much away, as much as possible, from the lay media, just because-

• 15:03Rich Roll?

  But you're, you're a jaw, I mean, you're a voice piece for the layperson, right? It's almost your mantle to translate this stuff.

• 15:10Speaker 03

  Right. And so, sometimes I'm kind of forced into it. I'm so like the saturated fat study. It's just like, I always am hoping someone else will take it on, because I just wanna, you know, cover the, cover the science and not kind of go back and fight back against, you know? But- You know, I wait, I wait, no one's gonna do it. Okay, fine, I'll do it, right? Like, no one did a really good thing against Atkins, so finally, I, you know, wrote the book on Atkins, and then, you know, um, and so, I mean, I usually get kinda dragged into it later on, um, hoping that someone else will kinda take the mantle and do that kinda piece, and let me just stick to the science and, you know, uh, rather than kinda, cause otherwise, you just get caught in these kinda endless-

• 15:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's like a vicious cycle of he said, she said kinda thing, right?

• 15:59Speaker 03

  The, um, but, you know, the, the, the WHO story about processed meat, that was a real breakthrough.

• 16:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and it made a lot of media, and there was a lot of internet chatter, of course, back and forth, but I think, you know, it's really making people question, you know, their, their dietary choices when it comes to that stuff.

• 16:15Speaker 03

  You know what's interesting, though, which seems to be kinda burying the lead here, but, you know, so processed meat, so you gotta read a good, you know, kinda in-depth story about it, talk about this 34,000 number, where they looked at the burden of disease study, it was the biggest study looking at risk factors and death and mortality in the world, funded by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, the World Bank. This is the study to find out how many people soda kills, how many people processed meat kills, how many lives you could save if people ate whole grains, or fruits, or more vegetables. I mean, this was the study that put it all together, and found the 34,000 cancer deaths a year linked to, um, to processed meat consumption. But that same study, that's been quoted in all these things,

• 16:57Speaker 03

  found that 840,000 people overall die from processed meat because it contributes to high blood pressure, kidney disease, all these other things. And so, okay, there's that, you know, but what about the other 800,000? There's like a meat-borne epidemic every year of people dying from processed meat.

• 17:17Speaker 03

  I maybe cancer is just scary.

• 17:18Rich Roll?

  So cancer was almost like the footnote to a bigger.

• 17:21Speaker 03

  To the massive amount of, right. I mean, in fact, I mean, there's these studies, you know, you know, estimating that, you know, if, you know, if, if everyone who ate processed meat cut down their processed meat consumption, like a half strip of bacon a day from whatever they're eating before, like, how much we could, how many lives we could save on a population level, like a certain percentage of mortality overall for the entire population could be prevented. I mean, that's just amazing stats. And.

• 17:49Rich Roll?

  Right, because all the attention was on cancer and it was like, if you broke down the numbers and the percentages, it still really would only impact like a relatively few number of people.

• 17:59Speaker 03

  Right, no, right. So raising, right, so raising your, you know, risk of colon cancer a few percent, I mean, you know, and so colon cancer is now the third leading cancer killer. What about heart disease? What about, I mean, there's so, I don't, I mean, the, the risks associated with these products, but that's maybe part of the kind of reductionism where, you know, we used to talk about individual nutrients. Now we're talking about individual foods as they pertain to particular diseases, but, I mean, you have to look at the impact. I mean, so like the good impact of, you know, this one, you know, broccoli, not only, you know, when I talk about, you know, I have the little broccoli chapter even and say, as I mentioned, in chapters one, three, five, seven, you know,

• 18:39Speaker 03

  and now your liver cancer and the stroke and the, just like whole plant foods can benefit multiple body systems. You can see some of these foods that are adversely impacted, can adversely impact the entire organism.

• 18:53Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  And so you really need to look at it overall. And so when someone says, so let's say there was a study that came out that said, you know, bacon was good for preventing cataracts or something, they would never do that because it's an oxidation thing. But it's like, even if it was good, here's this body of evidence showing bacon does all these other horrible things to your body. So it's like, you still wouldn't eat it. You know, it's like, so people say to me, well, aren't you cherry picking? Here, I have a study that's like independent that shows that, you know, the opposite of what you said. And you know, that, that's. That was actually a tobacco industry tactic. They criticized the American Lung Association. They actually have a stack of 100 papers showing that smoking is good for you.

• 19:35Speaker 03

  Not neutral, not bad, but actually good for you. And they criticized the American Lung Association for never mentioning this body of evidence showing how good smoking is for you. For example, smoking protects against ulcerative colitis. Smoking protects against Parkinson's disease. Very strong protection against Parkinson's disease. Right? Okay. Now, and why don't they ever mention? It's like this anti-smoking conspiracy. It's like, why don't they, right? And so, but, okay, fine. Tobacco protects against Parkinson's. But even if you just forget lung cancer, forget, if you just cared about your brain, you still wouldn't smoke because it so increases your stroke risk.

• 20:17Speaker 03

  I like, I mean, so, like, so you understand how the American Lung Association is sticking with the overall balance of evidence and trying to represent what the body of evidence shows. The body of evidence shows that smoking is bad. And so that's why the studies that they promote and have on their website reflect what's in the overall body of evidence. I mean, and people just seem to, you know, miss that point.

• 20:51Rich Roll?

  From corporate lawyer to ambassador of sweat and swagger, Robin Arzon is all about how to undo ordinary. Tell your own story and do epic shit. She is a super inspirational, modern face of active female empowerment. I love her to death. And in this second appearance on the show, she talks all about how she's navigating her latest obstacle, type 1 diabetes. So check it out.

• 21:15Speaker 04

  You know, honestly, the diabetes diagnosis was...

• 21:24Speaker 04

  It took the wind out of me for about thirty-five seconds. And then I looked at the endocrinologist and I was like, with not a hint, I was just, I literally looked her in the eyes, I was like, how can I run a hundred mile race? And she was like, uh, I'd never met her before, this was a totally emergency appointment, you know? And she's pulling out like, she's starting to pull out the USDA like, this is how many ounces are in a glass of milk bullshit, and I was like, homegirl, this is not the conversation we're having right now. And like thankfully, you know, she's amazing and I have a great team. But in those few days that it was just like, ah, get her insulin, what's going on? Like, and I didn't even know really what type one diabetes was.

• 22:06Speaker 04

  In my mind, I was just like, how do I continue being an endurance athlete? And I, you know, I'm just in the beginning of my journey, so I'm like, I'm not stopping now.

• 22:14Rich Roll?

  Well, I think even the most positive people would at least need a couple of days, you know what I mean? Like thirty seconds, like,

• 22:20Speaker 04

  I was like,

• 22:21Rich Roll?

  how do you, what do you attribute, like, are you just wired that way to be like finding the positive in everything? Or like, or did you, have you trained yourself to be in that headspace?

• 22:31Speaker 04

  Hmm, I think it's probably a combination of both. My mother is a really positive person, so even despite her MS diagnosis and other things that have happened in her life, you know, Cuban refugee, you know, just life. She has always treated, she's met life's adventures with, um, class and humor. And now I've infused, I think, a little bit of swagger and expletives into the mix, and then I'm just like, fuck it, then just keep moving. But, but in all seriousness, I do think it's part, in part my mother's example, and also, it is absolutely a choice. We choose how we react to things.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  I don't think, I don't think life happens to us like we happen to life. And if we're constantly always reacting to how things are.

• 23:25Speaker 04

  Or what's to what's thrown at us instead of proactively being like, I am choosing this now. I am choosing this path. So when the endo was like, okay, it's type one. I was like, oh shit. That sucks. I thought it was pancreatic cancer. Better than that. How do I run a hundred mile race? What's the technology available? So within two weeks I was on a pod and then I think within three and a half weeks I was running the New York City half marathon.

• 23:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:53Speaker 04

  So as planned, you know, that, that was, that was always the plan. And it was during the same time that I was, New York governors had chosen me as a social media reporter and I had no idea what, and you know, as part of that engagement, I was gonna run five or six races for New York governors, including the New York City Marathon. So I'm looking at my 2014 race schedule like, I don't, I don't even know how the hell I can do this, but I was just like, I'm gonna try.

• 24:19Rich Roll?

  Right. One day just show up for the day as it comes.

• 24:22Speaker 04

  Say again?

• 24:23Rich Roll?

  And move forward. Like just show, just every day, wake up and like, that was happening today.

• 24:27Speaker 04

  Just keep, you know, that willpower muscle, it can get fatigued, but it gets stronger, you know? And I, I look at things like I have a superhero toolkit and I didn't think that an insulin pump was gonna be part of that. But you know what? Like, whatever.

• 24:46Rich Roll?

  Like wonder twin powers activate, like sort of, you know?

• 24:49Speaker 04

  Yeah. Like Sheera didn't have insulin.

• 24:51Rich Roll?

  Pack of.

• 24:52Speaker 04

  But Robin NYC does. So, and Beyonce wasn't built in a day. So I just have to take it step by step.

• 24:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but like the, the comfort level with which you just sort of walk with that and you're like, yeah, man, here it is. It's right here. Check it out. And let's rock it. You know, like that attitude is really powerful. And I think that's what people are responding to. You know what I mean? Like, like, yeah, I got this, you know? Do you think I like, you know, like, do you think I like having this big thing on my arm, you know, sticking out? Like especially as a girl, like, you know, probably not, you know what I mean? But you're like, you're not trying to hide it. You're like, yeah, it's right here. It's awesome.

• 25:28Speaker 04

  When I had the training for the pod, and it's funny how things are so daunting in the moment. Like I remember the first time I had to give myself an injection or the first time I had to fill my pod or. It was just so frustrating because I didn't know how to do it. And I was like, I just want to be efficient and good. And it's a process. Success is so circuitous and iterative.

• 25:49Speaker 04

  As it was with my diabetes management. But I remember when I was going through the training of how to put on the pod and wear. And she was like, oh, well, you know, you need a place that has some fat. And so really, it's just like my hip area. And she's like, oh, in the back of your arms will work. And I was like, I can't put that on the back of my arm. Like, that's visible. How? And I was just like mildly offended. And then not even a week later, I was like, oh, slap this thing on here, whatever.

• 26:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, for the listener who might not be familiar, or maybe didn't listen to the first time we talked about this. Like, it's, it looks like a little, you know, it looks like you have kind of, I don't know what, like a pack of gum.

• 26:27Speaker 04

  It looks, it looks like an old school beeper.

• 26:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, like a beeper, like on a Band-Aid.

• 26:32Speaker 04

  The size of a beeper on a Band-Aid. With like a one, with a one inch needle that goes into my skin and I wear it. And I change it every, every few days. But, um, but the coolest thing is, you know, it's funny, sometimes athletes will stop me. And they're like, dude, like, what is that? They think it's like some next level heart rate monitor or like something really, I'm like, it's just insulin, bro. But, um.

• 26:57Rich Roll?

  But what else could you put in there?

• 26:58Speaker 04

  But yeah, but, but, but diabetics will stop me and I love that. And a woman who, who rides with me, she was like, wow, my husband has type one diabetes and he hasn't revisited getting a pod for years. And now that I see how small yours is, like, I'm going to encourage him to talk to his, his doctors about it.

• 27:14Rich Roll?

  Because, I mean, what's the reason? Because it's a pain in the butt?

• 27:17Speaker 04

  This is, this is the smallest with no tubing. So it's, I found one with no tubing because I knew that would work best for me. And the advancements in the technology really have come a long way, even in the last five years. So, you know, type ones or diabetics in general who, who need this type of insulin management. I really recommend looking into it.

• 27:42Rich Roll?

  Our culture is obsessed with protein. Obsessed. But this fixation isn't just misplaced and it isn't just unhealthy. It's downright killing us. Bariatric surgeon, Ironman athlete, and author of Proteinaholic, Garth Davis, M.D. dropped by to cut through the morass of confusion and hype surrounding popular diet trends and set the record straight on how to best eat to thrive. Check it out.

• 28:09Speaker 01

  There is, what people miss is there's a huge, huge literature about plant-based diets and about eating meat. And a person who's experienced in reading this literature, understanding it, can make pretty good conclusions. And it is not as relative as people make it out to be.

• 28:28Rich Roll?

  So what would be, in the most general sense, some of those conclusions? Based on the studies and the research that you've kind of immersed yourself in?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. Without a doubt, processed meat is horrible for you. You can't get away from that fact. So processed meat, bacon, you know, the Subway sandwich, you know, cold cuts, horrible for you. Related with diabetes, cancer, life expectancy, heart disease, horrible for you. Red meat, for the most part, looks like it is not good for you. Definitely associated with diabetes. Definitely associated with diabetes. I'm not quite sure you could be vegan and be diabetic. I know there's about a 2% incidence of this, but I don't understand it. I like to see those people more clearly. And there's a lot of studies that go on with that.

• 29:19Speaker 01

  Animal products in general seem to be leading to premature aging. In many of the studies, definitely a link with cancer. Different meats with different cancers. For instance, chicken is strongly related with.

• 29:34Speaker 01

  Lymphoma and leukemia, whereas meat is strongly related with colon cancers and and some of the other reproductive cancers. Prostate is very, very strongly linked with dairy, eggs and meat. Definitely a heavy animal protein diet is associated with heart disease, definitely is associated with high blood pressure. And it's definitely associated with a shorter length of life. And the interesting thing about the longevity studies is we talked about taking out confounding factors. If you take out a lot of confounding factors, you get to the point where you're almost taking away a correlation.

• 30:14Speaker 01

  And yet, after really rigorous statistical analysis, there's still a finding that if you eat a plant-based diet, or if you eat less meat, you live longer.

• 30:25Rich Roll?

  Interesting. Well, I mean, those are some pretty, you know, bold statements that fly in the face of what seems to be quite popular right now, which is, you know, we can go through them, you know, in a bullet point way, but why don't we just start with saturated fat, right? There's this sort of populist notion at the moment, backed by certain studies that basically says, everything you ever heard about saturated fat is wrong, saturated fat is not your enemy, and it's not linked to the incidence of heart disease. Is that a fair characterization of kind of where a certain school of thought is coming from?

• 31:02Speaker 01

  Actually, the school of thought has gone worse. They now say saturated fat is good for you, right? So you'll see those things, you know, bacon is good. And they're not, it's funny how I saw an article bacon is good for you. And it wasn't about any testing of bacon being good for you. It was about saturated fat being good for you. Now, the studies that you mentioned that called to question saturated fat, they never said saturated fat is good for you. That's not their comment. They questioned whether it was as strongly correlated with heart disease as we previously thought. Now, the main study, a study called Siri Torino, is a perfect example of over-adjusting your statistical analysis. Keep in mind, every author on that article was paid for or receives payment from either make, meat, milk, or dairy.

• 31:47Rich Roll?

  What's that study called?

• 31:49Speaker 01

  It's the Siri Torino study, S I R I dash T A R I N O. That is the study that really started it all. That's the study that all these, you know, journalists like Tobbs and the other one in New York Times. Yeah, that's the one they just jumped on and went with it.

• 32:05Rich Roll?

  And was that the basis of the Time Magazine Butters Back article?

• 32:09Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Yeah. It's the basis of every article that ever comes out.

• 32:13Rich Roll?

  And so what did that study say?

• 32:15Speaker 01

  So they looked at a bunch of studies and they said, basically that saturated fat is not correlated with heart disease. But here's the problem. First of all, you hear this term thrown around a lot called cherry picking, where they cherry picked articles that would basically give their answer. Because I could have done that same study and brought a whole different group of articles and gotten a completely different analysis. But we'll put cherry picking aside. The problem is a lot of the studies that they picked did something called over adjustment. So what they did, it's just like we talked about before. If we're going to do a study and we're going to remove confounding variables, meaning variables that might affect, independently affect the result.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  So we're trying to see if saturated fat causes heart disease. So we want to take out other things that may affect heart disease. So for instance, if you're diabetic, we're taking you out when you're not in the study. And we'll look at our population and we'll say, well, if you're morbidly obese, we know that independently affects that, so we're going to take you out. Now, funny, the more you take out, the more you're taking out away from people that, you know, like plant-based diet benefits and stuff like that. But here's the key. They took out people that had high cholesterol. Because highest cholesterol is an independent cause of heart disease. But saturated fat causes heart disease by raising cholesterol.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  In part. So by removing those people from there, you're removing the people that actually are affected by the saturated fat. You're leaving for the study, people that have a genetic predisposition where they could eat saturated fat, not raise their cholesterol, and therefore won't get heart disease.

• 33:49Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 33:50Speaker 01

  It's ridiculous. Now, the second study that came along was a study by Child registry, and it was in, I think it was in the British Journal of Medicine. And that study did the same kind of things as the Siri Torino study did, but on top of it, there were people that were on Lipitor while doing the study. So they're taking a drug that's supposed to get rid of the effects of saturated fat, and then they're eating saturated fat and not getting heart disease.

• 34:17Rich Roll?

  But that wasn't taken into account?

• 34:19Speaker 01

  No.

• 34:19Rich Roll?

  Into the, that's interesting.

• 34:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:21Rich Roll?

  So, all right, so then that begs the question of the impact of cholesterol on heart disease. And I, and I guess that means you have to talk about the difference between, you know, sort of serum cholesterol and dietary cholesterol, right?

• 34:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 34:36Rich Roll?

  The difference between eating cholesterol laden foods and the impact of that on cholesterol and what that causes in terms of health.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, eating cholesterol does raise cholesterol. The only place we get cholesterol is from animal products. And cholesterol definitely is associated with heart disease. Now, the problem is we've gotten a little bit more scientific nowadays so that we don't just look at cholesterol per se. However, the largest study that's been done looking at cholesterol in America in a population was the Framingham Study. And Dr. Costelli himself said that possibly the problem we have is that we set what we call a normal cholesterol too high.

• 35:17Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:18Speaker 01

  And that a normal cholesterol should actually be lower. And he noted that under a total cholesterol of 150, they never, in all the years they studied Framingham, saw anybody with heart disease. If you keep your total cholesterol under 150, you're not going to get heart disease.

• 35:31Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 35:32Speaker 01

  We're more specific now. When I see someone with a high cholesterol, I want to know their LDL particle size, their Apo B protein. I mean, there's a There's a specific type of cholesterol that's dangerous. And if you have that specific type of cholesterol, that needs to be addressed. Then you need to be on, you know, seriously low fat.

• 35:50Rich Roll?

  And what is the impact of ingesting cholesterol, dietary cholesterol, on your cholesterol levels? Because isn't part of this idea or this argument that dietary cholesterol is not impactful on those cholesterol levels?

• 36:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it's just silly. Without a doubt, if you eat cholesterol. But here's the problem. And it's a big problem with our nutrition in general. We get down into what's called reductionist food science. We try to take, you know, one part of a food away. It's like, nothing bothers me more than when I'm ordering a salad and the waiter says, would you like a protein with that salad? Because I, and then I always. Yeah, I always have to pick on them. You know, don't, poor guy had to get me at the table. And, you know, then I'm always like, well, you know, what do you mean? He's like, what, do you want chicken or steak? And I'm like, well, there's more calories from fat than chicken. So are you really just asking me if I want some fat with my salad?

• 36:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:44Speaker 01

  And the guy's like, uh, you know.

• 36:51Rich Roll?

  Josh LaJani is a guy who lives in southern Louisiana. He took it upon himself to change his life. He lost 200 pounds. He went on to run a half marathon. Then he ran a marathon. And then he stepped it up and even ran an ultra marathon, all on a whole food, plant-based diet, which is like remarkable, right? What an extraordinary transformation. In fact, I would say he's one of the most inspirational everyman you will ever come across. But that's actually not the most incredible thing about this guy. What's really amazing to me is the extent to which Josh transformed his entire life and just how he did it. Not by just changing his diet and holding strict to a fitness regime, but by actually changing how he thought about himself.

• 37:36Rich Roll?

  I absolutely love this guy. He's like a little brother to me and I'm really pumped and excited to share this segment with you. So enjoy. What I think is interesting is that at some point along the way, you, you kind of made this decision that this was not about weight loss. This wasn't about a number on a scale. It wasn't even necessarily as much about being healthy, but you made this decision like, I'm going to be an athlete. Like, you know, I kind of talked about it earlier today. Like, you decided to tell this new story about who you are as opposed to like, I'm Josh, the overweight funny guy. Like, I'm Josh the runner. I'm Josh the athlete. And then you could kind of let go of that pressure of whatever the scale set and just focus

• 38:17Rich Roll?

  on getting better as an athlete. And then I think, I think I recall you saying, the last time we talked, that that was like, you know, when everything, it was kind of a quantum leap in terms of like, weight loss and then how you were able to like, rapidly improve.

• 38:31Speaker 05

  Right. Because the mind is so much more powerful than I ever gave it credit for. You know, I mean, and when, because I know so many runners, I have so many runner friends that are like, oh, I don't know, that's too fast for me. Or, oh, I'm just, you know, they, they sell themselves short a lot. And, and I don't think they really realize how powerful it is to say to yourself, you don't have to be arrogant about it, but we're bad. We're badass. We can handle this. And, and, and it takes that. And then in a race,

• 39:13Speaker 05

  you know, you, you're running and I know that I have run myself to dry heaves on the track. I know where I've, from where I've come. And so when I'm in those last miles of a race and, you know, no offense to anyone else in the race, but I see a guy that's ahead of me, a part of me thinks he doesn't deserve to be there. So I'm, and I think that that's totally natural and totally human. I think that's what we do, you know?

• 39:42Rich Roll?

  But that's such a huge leap from being the guy who's, you know, kind of self-deprecating and, and, you know, and kind of privately shameful about your situation.

• 39:53Speaker 05

  It all goes back to a strong. I'm gonna try to keep a straight face, but a strong woman that could see what needed to happen for me, you know, and helped kind of gently steer me there. Because fixing the way I thought about myself and what is possible

• 40:24Speaker 05

  changed my my life more than plants, more than running, more than any of these things. It's what went on inside my mind in the beginning, right?

• 40:34Rich Roll?

  And she, you know, she was always able to see that better version of you locked in there.

• 40:41Speaker 05

  She's always thought I'm so awesome and I never could understand why. You know what I mean? I never, and that's gotta be frustrating for a person to be constantly telling somebody how amazing they are and that person's completely like, ah, whatever, you know. I'm a, and being a complete

• 41:03Speaker 05

  rain cloud on any good things that she would say like, yeah, but I'm fat or la la la, you know. And so that has been the most, that, you know, how I, how I've been able to, with help, switch some very simple things in my brain to uh make me more confident, you know, not, not fake bravado confident, like really deep confidence in myself that, that, you know, I can set this goal, this running goal. There's more complex.

• 41:45Rich Roll?

  Life shit.

• 41:45Speaker 05

  Life shit that that is not so, that's one draw to running is like.

• 41:51Rich Roll?

  It never ends.

• 41:52Speaker 05

  Yeah, it's like, here's this thing that I'm in control of that I, I, it's very simple. All you have to do is go grind and are you willing to do it? And when you, that.

• 42:05Speaker 05

  Makes you, I think, makes me a better person in all the rest of my interchanges with other humans or situations in my life.

• 42:18Rich Roll?

  I'm with you, man. I mean, you know, particularly the part about having, you know, a strong partner who can see, who can see the, the real you and, you know, locked inside of you. And I had a very similar experience with Julie. I mean, you know, I was, I was dense, you know, dense and like, just like physically heavy, but just kind of emotionally dense. And she was always able to like, see through that and believe that there was something better in there.

• 42:45Speaker 05

  Yep.

• 42:46Rich Roll?

  And rather than push me to just hold that space for me to come out.

• 42:51Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 42:52Rich Roll?

  Right? And, and that's a very different thing from being somebody who's trying to force somebody to do something, but just holding that like neutral space and like never wavering in that belief is like this magnet, you know, like that's calling to you. And when the time is right, you know, to be able to kind of blossom out of that and step into it, I mean, it's, it's beautiful.

• 43:13Speaker 05

  It is. And it, and it echoes a lot. Something that I've adopted lately is, and is this, this sort of concept, this, this analogy that I use that, you know, I, I can, I think of myself or I try to think of myself as, as a lighthouse, right? And so, all I can do is be steady and bright and, and just shine as bright as I can and be a rock. You know what I mean? I'm unwavering and I'm okay with being that. I'm on, I'm okay with that.

• 43:57Speaker 05

  And, um, that's in a lot of ways, that's what my wife has been for me all the time we've been together and, and, and, um, so I learned that and I'm trying to use that in now in running and plants. I'm trying to use that, uh, that, that same model that just to not be pushy, but I'm gonna be so bright and so, I'm just, I'm, you can't miss me. You cannot miss me. And that's the point.

• 44:34Rich Roll?

  Widely considered one of the world's best free runners, a discipline more commonly referred to as parkour, Timothy Sheaf can do things with his body that you simply can't. But what's interesting about Timothy is how he leverages his athletic talents and public profile as this sort of subversive political art form, raising positive consciousness and awareness about issues that he cares deeply about. Tim is passionate about the vegan movement. He is a man of ethics and antics, as he would say, highly intelligent, very thoughtful and mindful. I just, I love his perspective and his activism. And the bottom line is, we need more guys like Timothy. Here's why.

• 45:17Speaker 06

  I remember when I was eight years, no, even younger than that, six, seven, eight years old, I was, I'd win sports day every day, every year, like the, the fast race. I was the fastest kid in my school. And then I got into soccer, and then I got into break dancing and parkour. And my body type kind of changed from the break dancing, because I was maybe 15 to 18. I was doing a lot more upper body and I wasn't running as much. But that was, you know, the, for me, the spiritual journey is the return to innocence and the return to youth and how we felt that angelic light state when we're a kid. And that's what I was born to. I was a fast kid. And maybe this is like, I've gone full circle.

• 45:51Rich Roll?

  You're coming back.

• 45:52Speaker 06

  Coming back to what I was when I was a kid. And again, with the things that have come along with that is my libido's completely dropped. Like my, I don't know if there's something with that, but in a, in a pure way, in a positive way, that it's like, I practiced no fap. I don't know if you know that one, which is like no masturbation.

• 46:10Rich Roll?

  Right. When did that come, hold on a second.

• 46:12Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 46:13Rich Roll?

  So when did that come in?

• 46:14Speaker 06

  That's like part of the whole spiritual thing. You see the vegan thing, you see other things. And that's one that pops up a gate, like cold showers and no faps. So it's, because it's supposed to empty your lower two chakras when you have that release. And I don't, I'm still experimenting if it's like, if it's done in like, I don't know if sex empties your lower two chakras, or if it's done in a pure way, or if, or if it's, if it's just masturbation or what. But anyway, so I Did to do that, okay, on and off for a bit when I had like competitions coming up and think the Ninja Warrior, I did it for a month and I had cold showers every day and I did well. It seemed to work in that, but you never know what's related to what. So that's why it's a constant life journey. But anyway.

• 46:53Rich Roll?

  Well, it's it's sort of symbolic of just being committed.

• 46:56Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's true. That's a good point. But anyway, since running, I've actually, it's not even like there's been no desire to, there's been no, I'm just wake up, I want to run, I want to train, I want to hang with mates and I can hang with females as well. And is there's less like that need, that desire to have to impress a girl or need to get something back? I don't know. It's really helped just.

• 47:19Rich Roll?

  But I think part of that, don't you think part of that also is, you know, the more comfortable you are in your skin and kind of like self assured about who you are and running can play a part in that, I think it certainly has for me, then that aspect of the ego becomes diminished.

• 47:34Speaker 06

  I think that's definitely a massive factor. And that, and I think maybe the constant

• 47:40Speaker 06

  bounce on your.

• 47:42Rich Roll?

  Or adrenal fatigue.

• 47:44Speaker 06

  Adrenal fatigue, yeah. Or that constant is like dissipates that energy that can get stored there because it can certainly control your brain when you give it time and you do that frequently, it can take, it can become where your mind kind of goes to when you stop that. And then the mixture with the, I don't know if it like, yeah, like the vibration, massages that control out of you kind of thing or what. But I feel a lot, just, yeah, just like I don't need, I feel like I'll never get married, never have a girlfriend. I love children, but I don't know if I'll ever have a kid. I just like, not saying I'm like celibate or like removing or anything, but just in a way that I'm content with not needing that.

• 48:26Rich Roll?

  Soul warrior.

• 48:27Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 48:28Rich Roll?

  Well, the the Shakti is moved from the root chakra, which is kind of a lower vibrating place to be spiritually and elevating up, hopefully more more towards the third eye.

• 48:41Speaker 06

  Yeah, that's it. And I've got this little necklace, this heart chakra necklace on.

• 48:44Rich Roll?

  I like that.

• 48:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 48:48Rich Roll?

  So, I mean, you're a big guy. You're kind of a top-heavy guy, but you've definitely leaned out since the last time I saw you. And obviously, you know, running, I'm sure, has played a part of that. I mean, how do you, how do you kind of balance, you know, what running is doing to your body with maintaining, you know, the upper body strength that you need to do what you do as a free runner?

• 49:07Speaker 06

  I don't do anything in the way of maintaining. I just train what I want to train every day. And if my body changes, it changes. The biggest factor in my body size has always been diet. If I'm eating, I ate veggie grill like three times last week. And that's, you know, it's quite heavy vegan food. It's not the best. And that, and I stay size, I keep size. If I eat raw, I lose size, even though I ran as much as I ran last week, which is more than I've ever run in my life. And so many calories supposedly, like any app will tell you, you burnt this many calories. Yet, I'm no thinner for it because of what I ate. If I eat raw, then I lose weight. Leading up to the marathon, I'm going to the Woodstock Fruit Festival before, and I'm going to be raw for like two or three weeks. So I want to lose some size.

• 49:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 49:46Speaker 06

  And that'll be right after my UK Ninja Warrior. So I trained Ninja Warrior last week. I didn't, I'm not aiming to maintain, but I was training for that competition. So I've definitely still got some size of a body. Then, once that competition is done, I think I will then do no upper body and just eat fruit. But there's no real aim other than I'm enjoying running. I'm going to keep doing that. If I lose upper body, then so be it. But I definitely look in the mirror and I just see way more of a balance and connection between my upper body and lower body. There'd be times when I'd go out and try and train, and I'd feel like it would take me so long to warm up my legs to get that engine started. And since running, I think it strengthened some core connection between my upper body. And I guess sitting in chairs doesn't help. It kind of just shuts off your whole lower

• 50:28Speaker 06

  body, stops the blood flow, kind of thing. And just since running, yeah, it's strengthened something between me. And I feel like one more fluid machine. And this is just the beginning. You know, I'm excited to just keep training and improving and noticing the progress.

• 50:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's pretty cool. So, so you're not super dogmatic about being 80, 10, 10, like, all the time?

• 50:46Speaker 06

  No, I think that's definitely, I always say that's an optimum way. That's the way nature provides it. It doesn't provide massive amount of fats, and it provides protein if you eat leafy greens.

• 50:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because there's a pretty big gap between the difference between, you know, veggie grill and eating a raw diet. Like, the only thing in common that they have really is that there's no animal products in them. But, you know, veggie grill, for people who are listening who don't know, is a, is a, I wouldn't call it fast food, but it is sort of convenient food that's vegan, but it's sort of, you know, it's not exactly, you can have super healthy options there, but usually when I go there, I'm eating like the buffalo wings.

• 51:24Speaker 06

  Mac and cheese.

• 51:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like vegan mac and cheese. It's like comfort food.

• 51:27Speaker 06

  I mean, for me, that's a mixture of my own weakness. And at the same time, I was out there with friends, and none of my friends there were vegan. But they were very open-minded people.

• 51:37Rich Roll?

  So you take them there.

• 51:38Speaker 06

  And they came there with me. And they're like, oh my, like, they just think we eat rabbit food, man. I always forget, people think vegans just eat fruit and veg all day. They don't realize that if you want to, you can eat exactly as you ate before, but without supporting the animal industry. And that's what veggie grill shows people. They go, oh, you can have this, you know, and then that helps.

• 51:56Rich Roll?

  It actually tastes pretty good. Like, the chicken sandwich thing they have there is ridiculous.

• 52:00Speaker 06

  The chicken is unbelievable. How good the chicken does taste like, yeah. But again, it is, as we always say, you know, vegan diet is about the simplicity, and it's not about creating these replicas. But for people, transitioning or showing them, you know, it's exciting that that exists.

• 52:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, for me, like, I don't need a meat analog. Like, I'm past that. You know, it's like, I don't, I don't desire it. Like, I've kind of, you know, evolved away from that. But, you know, I think it's, you know, it's important to understand that for a lot of people, you know, maybe even most people, you have to provide some kind of alternative that provides a safe, kind of welcome landing ground for people to then embark on their own journey. So, for example, I just, this past week, I put up my interview with Ethan Brown from Beyond Meat, and I know you went and just visited him and his headquarters. And I love what he's doing. You know, he's trying to innovate a new way of feeding the world that is not dependent upon industrialized animal agriculture. And he understands and implicitly recognizes that in order to do that in a

• 52:58Rich Roll?

  mainstream way, you have to create a product that is equally delicious to a hamburger or a chicken strip. And that's his goal. And I put that up, and, you know, the response to that, to our conversation is overwhelming, overwhelmingly, you know, amazingly positive. But you have the occasional person who's like, You know, why would you even want to create something that tastes like that? Like, that's not what, you know, being vegan is about. And it's like, you have to, if you really want change on a mass level, you have to meet people where they're at and provide an alternative that is going to be accessible for them. And so when you eat that beast burger and you're like, wow, that tastes a lot like a hamburger. You know, for me, that's a little bit weird because I haven't had anything like that in so long. But that's how you're going to get people to, you know,

• 53:41Rich Roll?

  get comfortable with doing something different than they always have.

• 53:44Speaker 06

  Right, protein on the box, that's what they need to do. That's the biggest thing. People are always, still to this day, you know, I'm not wasted away in this, you know, it's only been two, three years, but I don't ever eat a meal where I feel I better get my protein in. And yet, it's never an issue.

• 54:11Rich Roll?

  Obviously, we talk a lot about food on the podcast, particularly the health, environmental and ethical implications of our collective dietary choices and the global impact of the industrialized food industry on the same. But you might be less consciously aware of the massive extent to which the garment industry impacts a wide range of concerns, everything from global climate change to animal welfare to ethics and beyond. In other words, fashion is a world that desperately needs an environmentally conscious, sustainability-focused and ethically-driven facelift. Here's professor, writer and fashion designer Joshua Katcher.

• 54:52Speaker 07

  There is a piece written by an editor, a new editor at StyleCaster. And StyleCaster is a website that does a lot of fashion reporting. They're sort of along the lines of WWD, Women's Wear Daily, which is considered, you know, the foremost authority on fashion news. But StyleCaster is a little younger, it's web, it's totally web-oriented, and they...

• 55:18Speaker 07

  Do things to get attention like most websites want to do. So this editor wrote an article called, "I Wear Real Fur and I'm Not Ashamed." And you can just tell by the title that that was intended to get a lot of traffic and get a lot of comments and get people's riled up. If you read it, the tone, the talking points, it came, it looks like it came right out of a fur industry marketing handbook.

• 55:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:42Speaker 07

  So I just read it, I read through it and, you know, here's this influential young woman who's in a powerful position and that's amazing.

• 55:52Speaker 07

  But she, she goes on to make some very false claims about the fur industry and, and it's really, it hurts. It impacts lives when, when people make those claims. It makes people feel better to, oh, it's okay. It's okay to buy fur now because, you know, this one editor Right. Went to a, a marketing website and read their talking points.

• 56:14Rich Roll?

  Well, what is it that's, that, what were these points that she was purporting that are false? That it's That might be, you know, that maybe you could disabuse, you know, people's ideas of how that, how that business functions.

• 56:25Speaker 07

  You know, she, she poses one of the classic concepts, which is, I, I now eat meat, so why should I care about fur? Why, why is it okay to be contradictory? And I think that that is a huge problem overall. Like no, none of us can be perfect. None of us are pure. And I don't think that that's what any social justice movement is about. It's not about being perfect and pure for yourself. It's about being effective and bringing about change. And when I was three, my mom told me two wrongs don't make a right. So I think that that's still Listen to your mom. Yeah. I mean, my mom, my mom pretty much had it down. Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because you're gonna, you know, now choose to eat a steak doesn't mean it's also okay to confine

• 57:08Speaker 07

  an animal for its entire life in a tiny cage and then, you know, kill it in a horrible way. And just for something as frivolous as a, an accessory. And, um, but there's this idea that if, you know, if I'm not perfect already, why, why bother doing anything else?

• 57:24Rich Roll?

  Why bother, why bother leaving your apartment?

• 57:26Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 57:27Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 57:27Speaker 07

  Yeah. Why, why not just, you know, commit all of the horrible acts that I can because I, because I'm doing one thing. Because you already did it. Yeah. If I'm already going to hell, I may as well have fun. I think that's kind of the attitude. But there's something beneath that, and I think that what she really is attracted to is the symbol of fur. And fur still symbolizes power and sex and luxury and class and all of these things that we really desire in this culture.

• 57:52Rich Roll?

  The history is pretty fascinating, right? Going back to like Henry VIII and...

• 57:56Speaker 07

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it was... I think it went before that. Edward III, he made these sumptuary laws, which basically made fur a status symbol by law. So if you were, only if you were noble or, you know, a royal, could you wear most of the kinds of fur, especially something like ermine. When you see a picture of a king or queen from that, from the Middle Ages, and you see those, those white furs with the little tufts of black coming out of it, it's a trope that we see when we see royalty represented. That's ermine. It takes hundreds of ermine, they're little creatures, to make one garment.

• 58:35Speaker 07

  So furs like that, only, you know, you could be, you could be arrested, you could be put to death if you were a commoner who wore fur. So these laws lasted for hundreds of years. And you have generation after generation of people believing that only the very most powerful people wear fur. And I think we still can see the ramifications of that today.

• 58:54Rich Roll?

  Right, it creates an entrenched system in which it's just understood that if you're wearing this garment, that, that what comes with that is a, you know, a sense of status.

• 59:05Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 59:05Rich Roll?

  And, and luxury and all of these things that we associate as aspirational in our culture.

• 59:10Speaker 07

  Absolutely. And it's such, it's such an interesting garment to try to analyze from a sociological standpoint, from a historical standpoint, and from a psychological standpoint. Because I think what happens is that fur, because we know now how it's made, most people know, instead of it turning us off to it, it becomes a transgressive, naughty indulgence. So the fact that it's cruel almost makes it more desirable. And that's some psychological acrobatic... That is a little difficult to wrap your head around, but when you look at our culture from a from the standpoint of cuisine and the standpoint of a lot of other things,

• 59:53Speaker 07

  we gravitate towards things that were the crueler, the more gruesome, the more enjoyable. It's it's believed to be.

• 1:00:00Speaker 08

  Like the baby veal.

• 1:00:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, foie gras or like an exotic indulgence.

• 1:00:05Speaker 07

  Yeah, it's this idea that because it was so terrible, it must really be amazing. The payoff has to be equally, you know, as heightened as as as the production was gruesome. And there's a, I think there's a practice in France that's still done under, you know, behind closed doors at certain restaurants and people will hide their head under a veil when they're eating this because of the shame, but it's also a status symbol to be eating under the veil. And it's it's basically a bird that's soaked in in some form of liquor and then set ablaze alive. And then you eat it after it's burned to death. And I don't remember the exact name, what this is, but I think that's sort of along the same lines

• 1:00:49Speaker 07

  when we talk about fur and we talk about veal and we talk about.

• 1:00:52Rich Roll?

  There's the monkey brain thing too, right? I don't know where exactly that is.

• 1:00:56Speaker 08

  It's in the east.

• 1:00:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they you crack the skull open.

• 1:00:59Speaker 08

  While the monkey's alive.

• 1:01:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:01Speaker 07

  Yeah, I saw, I remember watching when I was in high school.

• 1:01:05Rich Roll?

  Faces of death.

• 1:01:06Speaker 07

  Faces of death.

• 1:01:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:07Speaker 07

  That was the documentary that actually started to have me thinking about animal.

• 1:01:12Rich Roll?

  Oh, really interesting.

• 1:01:13Speaker 07

  Yeah. And I was in an after school club called SWIFT, Students with Ideas for Tomorrow.

• 1:01:19Speaker 08

  That's awesome.

• 1:01:21Rich Roll?

  Yes, let's get you ready for the world fair with that.

• 1:01:23Speaker 08

  And look at how well it impacted you.

• 1:01:26Speaker 07

  I guess I was.

• 1:01:26Rich Roll?

  It worked.

• 1:01:27Speaker 07

  I was there just because I had friends that were in it. I really didn't, I wasn't somebody who cared that much about world events or issues. I didn't see myself as even a valid person to be addressing issues. I was just like, oh, I'm sort of just in the background. I'm, you know, I'm gonna just float through life and I'm not a decision maker. And I think that that was a very formative year for me when I, when I joined that club and I saw that video and I started, it just, it was the first time in my life that I thought that the adults weren't right. I was like, oh, maybe they're not doing things right. Maybe, maybe they don't have all their shit together.

• 1:02:12Rich Roll?

  Yale, Penn, and Harvard-trained cardiologist Robert Osfeld, M.D., is the founder and director of the Montefiore Hospital Cardiac Wellness Program, which is an immersive, holistic, preventive medicine program serving the underprivileged residents of the Bronx with team-based approach to patient care that promotes a whole foods, plant-based diet, and intensive lifestyle habit accountability. Dr. Osfeld is an extraordinary guy, radically and permanently improving the health and wellness of those that need it most. Let's hear what he has to say.

• 1:02:46Speaker 09

  Yeah, there's a lot of really exciting things about my job. And so I'll give you, for a typical week, there's a lot of variety. I'm lucky. And you know, I'll get a chance to teach medical students, residents, fellows, see patients in clinic, which means like if you go to a doc and you're sitting in the waiting room, reading whatever magazine, and you go in and see them, that's clinic. One day a week, I'll read ultrasound pictures of the heart. And other weeks, I'll be on service. And I was on service a number of weeks ago. And what that means is a patient's admitted to the hospital. And if someone has a question, they'll consult the cardiac service. So I thought to myself, okay, on any given day, I'm going to count how many patients I see. These are new patients coming

• 1:03:30Speaker 09

  into the hospital with some sort of cardiac complaint. So they're a little bit enriched for cardiac issues. But I'm like, okay, I'm going to count how many I see. And then I'm going to pick these four disease processes. I'm going to pick diabetes, hypertension, high cholesterol, or obesity. And I'm going to just see how many of them have one of those four problems on just one day. And so I saw 20 patients that day in the hospital. And not 12, not 15, but all 20 of them had at least one of those diseases that may have been prevented or reversed with a plant-based diet. And then the very next day, a patient in their early twenties came in with a garden variety heart attack.

• 1:04:09Rich Roll?

  Early twenties.

• 1:04:12Speaker 09

  Early twenties. Came in with a garden variety heart attack. There wasn't, you know, some peculiar, very uncommon genetic predisposition.

• 1:04:20Rich Roll?

  Obese?

• 1:04:21Speaker 09

  No, a little overweight, but not obese. And there weren't any illicit substances involved. It was just a garden variety heart attack. And I'm gonna ask the listeners that what percentage of 12 to 14 year olds do you in the Western world of US do you think have early signs of cholesterol disease in the blood vessels in their heart?

• 1:04:45Rich Roll?

  Want me to answer that?

• 1:04:46Speaker 09

  Yeah, sure.

• 1:04:47Rich Roll?

  I would say very high percentage.

• 1:04:49Speaker 09

  Okay. Yeah, so you're definitely on it and someone someone will be thinking 1% because they're gonna do like the prices right thing. All the prices right, you know.

• 1:04:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you gotta go low, right?

• 1:04:59Speaker 09

  So, but you're absolutely right. It's about 65, 65% of 12 to 14 year olds in the US have early signs of cholesterol disease in the blood vessels that feed their hearts with blood. And we know that from pathology studies of kids who died for other reasons. And then, I mean, you don't have to worry because it gets worse. Because as you were pointing out, heart and blood vessel disease is the number one killer of adult men and women. And there are about two heart attacks every minute in the US. So maybe we've been talking for 60 minutes. That's 120 heart attacks have occurred in the US during this one hour that we've been speaking. So a typical patient that I'll see.

• 1:05:40Rich Roll?

  Hold on one second, like, let's just, let's break that down a little bit because that's so shocking and extraordinary and simply, you know, I want to like emphasize this idea that heart disease begins, you know, at a very young age with the habits that you form as a youngster with respect to your lifestyle and your diet. And, you know, we have lots of friends that are super healthy parents, they love their kids, and they struggle with trying to, trying to implement healthy eating habits in their kids, you know, like, ah, you know, we eat so great, but you know, I just can't get my kid off the chicken McNuggets, you know. And part of that is like, there's an innocence to that, like, ah, just let them have the, you know, like, it's, I'm tired, I've worked all day, like, I just want, just let them

• 1:06:23Rich Roll?

  have the chicken McNuggets, you know, I can't deal right now. But when you think of what you just said.

• 1:06:30Rich Roll?

  That really reframes that discussion and I think it really turns the volume up on the level to which that needs to be a priority in parenting our children.

• 1:06:41Speaker 09

  I agree. I think it's, I mean, I'm an adult doctor, so I refrain from making specific recommendations in pediatrics, but I believe it's never too early to start and it's never too late. And when I, you know, see kids eating those kinds of foods, the animal-based products, the nutrient not dense, the processed foods, it just really bums me out. And I know at the end of the day, sometimes you just gotta get the kid to eat. And so, but I wish that they would be plant-based. And there's just every reason to believe that taking that approach from as early as possible is going to be the most healthful for the kid.

• 1:07:26Speaker 09

  And I'm not, I don't want to get specific into pediatric recommendations. And just along those lines, I have some friends who have raised their kids plant-based. And, you know, it takes some work. But now when the kids are hungry and they want a snack, they're like, oh, mom, can I have some cantaloupe? And I'm like, wow, like, what you've taken on, you know, you are taking on the onslaught from society of, you know, eat this animal product, eat this processed chip.

• 1:07:56Rich Roll?

  Just the marketing machine alone, when you turn the television on.

• 1:07:59Speaker 09

  Exactly right.

• 1:08:00Rich Roll?

  Is overpowering.

• 1:08:01Speaker 09

  And they've been, and the, you know, influence from their friends and stuff, they've been able to counter that, I think is so impressive.

• 1:08:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a very, it's difficult. It's, it's not easy, but it also is doable. It's not impossible. You know, we've, and it's a, it's not, it's not an overnight thing either. But I think when you, you know, to use the example of the kid who's eating the Chicken McNuggets, it's, it's about a lot more than that one instance of that person eating that thing, because every time you make that choice, you're reinforcing a habit. And when you're young, those habits, you know, are fluid, but they quickly become cemented. And then, as you and I both know, when you're, you know, later in life, it's a lot harder. You know, it's like, try to learn a language now, versus when you're 12, you know what I mean? Like, it's a different thing. So, it's that precious time where you have that

• 1:08:51Rich Roll?

  kind of influence over your children and you can set them on, you know, a better trajectory. And I think it deserves, you know, Like hitting the pause button on, you know, the timeline of what we were going through with you to kind of just bear witness to that.

• 1:09:04Speaker 09

  I totally agree. And I mean, like, especially when the kid's really young, that's a lot of brain development. I mean, from a 10,000-foot view level, it sure makes sense to me that you want to bathe that kid in as many phytonutrients and antioxidants as you possibly can to maximize their, their, their, their brain development and their vascular development as, as much as you can.

• 1:09:30Rich Roll?

  Hailed as the conscience of the food movement by Time Magazine, Gene Bauer is the president and co-founder of Farm Sanctuary, which is the first animal rescue organization dedicated to farm animals. He's also a marathon runner. He's an Ironman athlete. He is incredibly handsome and charming, as well as the author of Living the Farm Sanctuary Life, a cookbook and lifestyle guide that advocates for a more principled, harmonious, mindful, and compassionate approach to living and eating in harmony with nature and your values. I love this guy. Gene is just, he's, he's just an awesome guy. Here's why. Well, it's quite a trajectory. I mean, we talked about it at length in the last time

• 1:10:14Rich Roll?

  we spoke, so I don't want to retread too much of that. But at the same time, I think it bears notice that, you know, that's a long road from, from that day to kind of the awareness and what's happening right now and the whole vegan, plant-based movement and what's going on with environmental awareness and conservation and, and diet and health and, and, you know, to you being on the pages of Time Magazine, answering 10 questions, you know, it was like so cool to see that, like, it's amazing. It must just feel like, wow, you know, like, I was on to something back then, when no one was paying attention and you just stuck with it, you know, from the early days until now. And, uh, and that's gotta be quite affirming.

• 1:10:56Speaker 10

  It feels so good to see the kind of energy around this movement now. And I think, you know, in addition to animal activists, we have environmental people. We have health people. We have athletes like yourself who are setting an amazing example. We have chefs that are creating food that is so delicious that nobody can say that you give things up by becoming a vegan and eating plants instead of animals. So there's so many great things around this movement right now.

• 1:11:22Rich Roll?

  I just was talking to a friend of mine the other day.

• 1:11:26Rich Roll?

  Longtime vegan, plant-based guy, you know, has been to every restaurant, like he's eaten at every vegan, you know, he's well-traveled and everything, had never gone to Crossroads in LA and went there for the first time the other week and it just blew his mind. You know, he blew his mind. It blew his mind that A, it was filled with people that weren't vegans that just were enjoying it and he was just amazed at the creations that Tal could come up with, you know, and of course, that's very gourmet, it's very high-end and all of that, but just the fact that it even exists at all is like amazing.

• 1:11:58Speaker 10

  It's art. It's art and it shows clearly that you can have everything you want, all the flavors, all the textures by eating plants instead of animals. And, you know, I think that there still is to some extent a general prejudice against vegan food and vegan living. And so if somebody tries something that's vegan and they don't like it, they will sometimes conclude incorrectly that, well, vegan food's terrible, I don't like it, after one thing, you know. But if somebody eats a bad dish.

• 1:12:26Rich Roll?

  Hopefully, it's not your veggie dog from the van.

• 1:12:28Speaker 10

  It might have been back in the day.

• 1:12:32Rich Roll?

  You're doing more harm than good.

• 1:12:33Speaker 10

  I sometimes wonder, you know, because if, you know, I used to always think seeing something vegan on the menu was a good thing, but now I'm increasingly thinking it better taste good, you know, because if people are gonna try it, it better be something that they enjoy so that the existing prejudice against this kind of food doesn't kick in.

• 1:12:52Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Especially if you label it as such, like, you know, if you, look, if you put a label on a bunch of kale and say, "This is vegan," then people are making like a judgment about this whole lifestyle and diet based on this food as opposed to just handing them this and saying, "Here, why don't you eat this?" without making any kind of, you know.

• 1:13:12Speaker 10

  Judgment, prejudgment.

• 1:13:13Rich Roll?

  Pronouncement about what it is.

• 1:13:14Speaker 10

  That's very true. And I think that's something that's happening too. Restaurants that are vegan are not broadly proclaiming to be vegan and people are trying it because that prejudice that they have doesn't come forward. And so I think a lot of the prejudices against vegans are starting to fall away. You know, one of them is that the food is not tasty, for example. Another is that vegans don't get all the energy they need to do triathlons and to do other incredible athletic feats. So that's another thing that I think is starting to follow away those prejudices. And that vegans are a certain type, you know, vegans span the the spectrum. You know, there are left-leaning vegans, there are right-leaning vegans, there are

• 1:13:58Speaker 10

  very health-oriented vegans, there are some that are not so.

• 1:14:01Rich Roll?

  Are there any vegans in the Tea Party?

• 1:14:03Speaker 10

  There probably are, believe it or not.

• 1:14:05Rich Roll?

  That would be interesting. I'd like to get that guy on the podcast. How's that work?

• 1:14:09Speaker 10

  I definitely know there are some conservatives who are vegans who have spoken out, in fact, against what happens to animals on factory farms and who have spoken out against the, you know, humans mistreatment and disrespect for other life on the planet. And so there, you know, this does really span the spectrum.

• 1:14:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I guess it's not, I mean, we joke, but like truly, like a true conservative perspective, you know, why does that obviate a sense of compassion? You know, compassion transcends political affiliation, you know, so.

• 1:14:46Speaker 10

  Absolutely. And I think, you know, in some ways, in fact, progressive values sometimes come out of the idea of conserving nature and preserving things and holding on to things that are important. And and I think that some of those notions can be go in a direction that's not very healthy and becomes judgmentful and judgmental and disrespectful. But, you know, ultimately, it is about respecting nature, respecting each other, respecting other life, other animals, and living in a way that is compassionate. And and most people are for that, you know, whatever their political.

• 1:15:22Rich Roll?

  You could make an argument that it is an extrapolation of the pro-life perspective.

• 1:15:27Speaker 10

  Absolutely. There have been stuff written on that, in fact.

• 1:15:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, has there? That's really interesting.

• 1:15:32Speaker 10

  Yeah, Matthew Scully is a former speechwriter for President George W. Bush, who wrote something along those lines, saying that those who are pro-life should also be pro-animal life and that logically, they're very much aligned, you know, so.

• 1:15:48Speaker 10

  You know, there's a lot of different perspectives, you know, and then of of course, you know, you have to look beyond, you know, I mean, the lives of women also matter, you know, so this is, it's complicated.

• 1:15:58Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, it's not, it's not a black and white thing.

• 1:16:02Speaker 10

  No.

• 1:16:11Rich Roll?

  This past month, we navigated the passing of Julie's 92 year old father. And it was a incredible, very up close and personal experience with death, which is a subject that we don't really like to talk about and don't talk about enough. Because in general, our cultural relationship with death breeds fear. And fear breeds resistance. Resistance breeds denial. And denial never helped anyone. In other words, not a healthy relationship with death. So let's form a new one. Here's Julie. You seem to be always cultivating that relationship in a conscious way, like,

• 1:16:54Rich Roll?

  and you've said very often, like, I'm not afraid to die, I'm not afraid to die. And I've sort of thought, okay, well, we'll see what that looks like when it actually happens, because it is so terrifying. I mean, do you really hold to that idea that you think that, you know, when that moment arises, unless it happens suddenly, you know, in a, in sort of an accident kind of way, that you'll be able to navigate it without fear?

• 1:17:17Speaker 08

  Yes, I do. But I've spent most of my life cultivating that muscle. So I'm not saying that I won't feel sadness, or I cry, I cry about my dad. There's a part of me that I'm sad about it. I'm not trying to keep him here, nor is anyone else. So I'm still very human. I'm a human being. But I've never been an illusion that I was never going to die. And in more than that, and I've said it before, every time I kiss you, I know. Every time I kiss any one of my kids, I'm very aware of it, always, all the time. It's never not, I'm never not aware of it.

• 1:17:52Rich Roll?

  And what is the practice that you rely on predominantly to cultivate that awareness?

• 1:17:58Speaker 08

  Well, it's been informed by meditation. It's also been informed by the death of a dear friend of mine's son that happened many years ago. And I experienced that with her very, very, very closely. Like, I was her closest friend. I was with her through all the horror of that. So I would say that that really, really sort of brought it up, you know, very viscerally for me. But even before that, I was always very, very aware, very aware of the temporal quality of life. And it makes living my life very, very rich because I'm very aware of it.

• 1:18:42Rich Roll?

  But how, but how does somebody who's listening to this, who might not have had those kinds of experiences, how can, how can one cultivate, you know, that kind of, you know, healthy appreciation and awareness that can help, you know, improve the quality of day-to-day life and maybe obviate some of that fear?

• 1:19:01Speaker 08

  Well, it's by having an inner focus and observing yourself and entering into a meditation program. You know, I have an amazing meditation program that we offer called Jai Release. It's very, very, very powerful for starting to get you connected to the fact that you are a spiritual being having human experience. And then, if you need more, if you need more evidence, like, turn the news on. Like, look around, like, what's happening? You know? It's like, understand if you're medicating yourself by shopping, or by drinking, or by using, or by, you know, being addicted to social media, or like, this whole illusion that, you know, because you have a lot of Instagram followers, suddenly, you know, you're immortal.

• 1:19:45Speaker 08

  It's like, it can be kind of funny and kind of amusing how we as humans set up these things around ourselves, or getting very attached to a certain way of living, like that's going to stop it, you know, like that's going to then make you immortal and you're not going to die. Now, in my perspective, I practice yoga and I study the practices of yoga, like pranayama, like meditation, like yoga nidra. I've been cultivating this awareness of what is beyond the body. Because of any beings on the planet, the yogis, and I'm not talking about, you know, acrobatic yoga, I'm talking about real classical yoga.

• 1:20:26Speaker 08

  You know, the yogis know, they know certain practices, their breathing practices, breath of fire, which take you beyond the body. And, you know, you're not going to, you know, become an advanced master yogi overnight, but you will start to cultivate this other awareness of, wait a second, like, this isn't quite, you know, what the whole material world is telling me. And then, over your practice, depending on your level of heart, how much you really, you know, do you really want to have a relationship with the divine? Are you really, do you really want that? And if you want that, the divine will run to you. It'll take, you know, a hundred steps towards you if you take one step towards it.

• 1:21:10Speaker 08

  And suddenly, your life becomes divine, and everything that happens is profound. And, you know, I have signs given to me all day, every day. But it's because I'm looking for them, because I want them, I'm cultivating that.

• 1:21:25Rich Roll?

  Do you think that your dad is satisfied with the life that he's lived?

• 1:21:32Speaker 08

  Yes.

• 1:21:33Rich Roll?

  I mean, he seems like he's at peace.

• 1:21:34Speaker 08

  Yes, I think he is, and also, this has been another, just so profound, life is so incredibly beautiful. But, you know, my dad and I couldn't have been too different, you know, more different. We were definitely extremes on the polarity, you know, scale. And yet, you know, there were, there were many times where there was a lot of pain between us and a lot of misunderstanding. I can't say that he, that he really ever understood me in a human form. We also found times of our life where we were able to connect in a very deep way. So I've, I've found a way to meet him in the areas where he could, where there was a bridge for us. So one of those areas was when I built homes. I built

• 1:22:18Speaker 08

  two homes in a six-year period. And my dad was a, a civil engineer, a very, very fine, amazing engineer who was the, you know, head project manager for huge projects. He built the hotel at Alieska, a huge, you know, huge building. And his latest project, he was the project manager on a $70 million museum designed by David Chipperfield. Extraordinary building. And he worked for the natives in, in Alaska his whole life. He built all their hospitals and art centers and everything. So when I built these homes, we could, we

• 1:22:59Speaker 08

  could meet there. We could meet over the blueprints. We could meet over, over that. That was like a, a way for me to connect with him. And so here I am in my, in my life. My dad did not understand my, my affection for the yogi lineage. He did not understand. That's an understatement. That's an understatement. He did not understand, you know, my vegetarianism, my veganism, although he ate my food and enjoyed it. And just as, as, as early as like 10 days ago, he said, Julie, your food is very different, but it's very good.

• 1:23:42Speaker 08

  So, um, you know. That's as good as it's gonna get. No, he was sweet. No, he was always sweet. But I would tell, I would tell you that even though he didn't understand me, if I ever really needed him, he was always there. And he was there financially for me, and he was there for you as well financially. And as well, um, you know, he always, um, he, he, he always tried to support. And, um, he read your book when it came out. And, uh, you know, he found a way to connect with you as well, even though you're, you're very, very different. So, but I guess what I want to say is, again, my dad and I couldn't be more different. Um, I honor and respect him for his choices in his life.

• 1:24:26Speaker 08

  It is his life. And I told him a couple of weeks ago, um, uh, actually before we went to Europe, he called me to say goodbye to me because he didn't think he was going to be alive when we returned. And, um, uh, you know, I told him, I said, Dad, you know, I'm gonna see you on the other side.

• 1:24:59Speaker 08

  And I said,

• 1:25:04Speaker 08

  "We're gonna have a laugh about this play that we agreed to have together." And I said, "Um, everything in your life is divinely created." And he was the perfect father for me because he allowed me to experience what my soul needed to experience.

• 1:25:37Speaker 08

  And that didn't mean, in my case with him, that we were the closest, you know, daddy-daughter. Just wasn't like that for us. But if you look at my Vedic chart, it shows in there. Chakrapani told me on my birthday, which I shared like the last podcast that I was on, I had no opportunity of a close relationship with my father. It did not exist in my divine plan. However, because I was able to, to see that and to find a place where I could connect with him, by the end of his life, we had resolved that. It had totally come into resolution. And I, you know, when he called me before I left for Europe,

• 1:26:22Speaker 08

  I was like, oh, man, I just, I was, I was okay before that. Like, I was fine. I, I understood we were very different and I was cool with that. And I knew he loved me the way that he loved me. And I knew that in the afterlife, he's gonna go where he wants to go. He's not going where I'm going. He's going where he's, where he wants to go. But what I didn't understand was that I would get this experience of caring for him in the hospital. I was with him for two days and he was having a lot of struggle. And he was still lucid and still aware in some spaces. And I was able to connect with him on a soul level. And I had this intimate experience with him. And he would come in and out, you know,

• 1:27:05Speaker 08

  and then he would say to me, hey, you know, how, oh, when did you get here? Where you been? And I said, oh, I've been around, you know, like realizing that he had forgotten that I had just been with him through this test and that I had just done this prayer and this meditation for him. But I realized at that moment, this profound, profound truth. And that is that he had certainly been with me when I was a baby. He had certainly held me and rocked me and comforted me. And I did not remember that. And here I was, at the end of his life. And, and I was comforting him and loving him and kissing him. And he didn't remember that.

• 1:27:51Rich Roll?

  So this next clip is about fragility. It's about the willingness to confront the painful past as a necessary process of growth, because shame can't survive the light, and because embracing vulnerability ultimately leads to strength.

• 1:28:18Rich Roll?

  So the story goes, the story relates to something that happened when we were in Hawaii for Ultraman in 2011, right? It was my third Ultraman. It was Ultraman after Epic Five and after the two Ultramans that I relate in Finding Ultra. So this happened after, you know, the story that's told in Finding Ultra. And I had spent an entire year preparing for this race. And I had very, very high expectations, right? I thought that I was primed to, if not win the race, be on the podium. And I was so focused in my training.

• 1:29:00Rich Roll?

  And I showed up in Hawaii Thanksgiving weekend 2011, beyond any level of fitness that I had ever had prior to that. Like, all my numbers, my watts, my heart rate, my running pace, everything was way beyond anything that I had ever, you know, experienced in my training, you know, even in 2009 or Epic Five or anything like that. So I went into this race like, fully charged and also with a lot of support. Like, in 2008 and 2009, we were like, you know, shoestring this whole thing together, trying to make it happen. And here we were in 2011, we actually had a lot of crew support, we had a lot of people, you know, helping us out. Like, we had no excuses, right?

• 1:29:43Rich Roll?

  And I definitely was feeling the pressure that comes with that, but I was also very excited to unleash my best performance yet.

• 1:29:53Rich Roll?

  And I got into the water for the 6.2 mile swim and I got out of the water in first place ahead of Jonas Colting, who had won Ultraman before. And I clocked two hours and 17 minutes, which was like five minutes faster than I had in 2009. And, you know, many, many, many minutes faster than I had in 2008. Like here I was at, how old was I then? Forty-five? I think I was forty-five.

• 1:30:17Speaker 08

  Forty-five, three years.

• 1:30:18Rich Roll?

  Forty-five. Yeah, so I'm forty-five years old and, and, you know, getting faster and faster and faster. Two seventeen, one of the fastest recorded swims in the history of that race. Got onto the bike, started pedaling up the first hill and I immediately knew that like something was very wrong. Like I just couldn't get into my rhythm. My heart was racing. I just didn't, I didn't feel good. You know, I just didn't, I was like, this is not clicking. Like something is wrong. And I struggled and I struggled and I struggled to make it through that first day. And I think I finished, I don't know what place I was in at the end of the first day, like fifth or something like that.

• 1:30:53Speaker 08

  Fifth or something, I can't remember.

• 1:30:53Rich Roll?

  But I didn't win the first day like I had in 2009. Like I was having a really hard time. And that evening, I started spitting up blood. And I thought, this will just pass. Maybe I overexerted myself. Showed up the next day, started the ride and just, it was not happening. And I was spitting up blood all morning long. And about, I don't know, forty miles into that first day, something like that, I just pulled over to the side of the road and I was like, it's, it's done. Like I can't, I can't breathe. I'm spitting up blood. Something is wrong with me. Right? And it was devastating.

• 1:31:26Speaker 08

  Very so.

• 1:31:27Rich Roll?

  And I have talked about this. I wrote a whole blog post about it. You know, just, just how upsetting that whole thing was to like, put so many eggs in that one basket for that one race. And that's what happens sometimes. You know, like it just doesn't go your way.

• 1:31:40Speaker 08

  Well, and the difference is that you were not a professional athlete. So it's not like you had another race behind this. It's like, this is the race that we had prepared for. And we had all of our resources and finally. Finally, we had support. Finally, we were not, you know, overdrawn in our bank account when you left. We had food on the table. We had an amazing crew. We had, you know, our friend Compton Rambato with us. Like, it was, everything was in place. And here you were, spitting blood. And you'd, I don't know if you remember, but you had night sweats all night, and you'd soak the sheets completely all during the night. And you didn't tell me. And I found out later.

• 1:32:15Rich Roll?

  And, you know, the other thing that kind of heightened the whole thing was that, you know, I'd sacrificed a lot. Like, I'd put aside a lot to focus on the training. And the family had sacrificed, you know, to support me in this adventure, right? Like, the whole family was behind it. But, you know, everybody had to give up a little bit in order to support this dream of mine. You know, I was shouldering that as well. And, you know, everything that, you know, had to go into, like, making all of this happen. So, the whole thing was very emotionally heightened. And I know, and you've written about this, you know, you wrote about this in your kind of blog post recap of what happened. And then, in this chapter that I read, you know, just how upsetting it was for you to say, are you kidding me? Like,

• 1:32:59Rich Roll?

  you're pulling over, you're pulling out of this race? Like, after everything that we've gone through to get here? Like, get back on your bike and finish. Like, I don't care how you feel. I don't care if you're spitting up blood. Like, act like a professional and get it done.

• 1:33:12Speaker 08

  Well, I had that moment there. You know, I had a moment, like, what am I supposed to do? Like, as your wife, I wanted to say, okay, honey, you don't feel well, get off. And then I considered my role as your crew captain and, you know, imagined myself screaming at you, like, get back on your bike. So, I had that moment, just because it was such a, such a moment to have to throw in the towel, you know, such a moment. But, of course, you know, of course, you were spitting up blood. You know, I snapped back into it. And of course, you needed to go to the hospital. There was, you know, better that you're safe and then finish the race.

• 1:33:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And we did. We went to the hospital. And, you know, I had like a Basically, I had a mild respiratory infection, but there wasn't anything that's serious. But when you're pushing your body to that level, like even like the slightest amount of illness in you is going to prevent you from, you know, performing at an elite level. And so I just wasn't able to make my body do the things that I knew it was capable of and that I had trained for. And it was devastating.

• 1:34:08Speaker 08

  It's extremely disappointing.

• 1:34:09Rich Roll?

  Incredibly devastating. And I think in retrospect, looking back on that experience and everything that went into like that year of preparation for that race, I'd become, you know, hyper, hyper focused on, on perfecting my fitness and taking everything that I was doing to the next level. And like, this was going to be the thing, right? This was going to be the thing. And as a result of that, I had not attended to other areas of, you know, my overall well being and health to the extent that I should have. And the biggest aspect of that was that I had kind of decelerated my involvement in my own sobriety and recovery,

• 1:34:51Rich Roll?

  right? Like I, I never questioned that, you know, I always knew that I was an alcoholic. It was never like, I'm not an alcoholic anymore. But I started to be less strident about my meeting attendance and, you know, staying in touch with my sober friends. And, you know, I was so focused on the training that I had deprioritized that very gradually. You know, I never like quit AA or anything like that, or thought like, I don't need this. Like, I knew that I did. I just wasn't putting it first. I wasn't making it a priority.

• 1:35:20Speaker 08

  And for us, it was so gradual that none of us even realized it. Like, none of us even noticed.

• 1:35:25Rich Roll?

  Right. And so here we are in the wake of this sort of devastating, you know, experience. And we had rented, like, a little farmhouse up in Hawaii, where we were going to stay for a couple of weeks after the race with the whole family. And, and just kind of enjoy some family time as a result of this, in the wake of this race, you know, and spend some time in Hawaii. And a couple of days after the race, we went down, we drove down the coast a little bit to go to a beach. We had the whole family there. And I had, uh, we, we kind of parked our stuff in front of like a fancy hotel resort. And you were with the boys and the girls and playing and like I, I think I said, like, I'm gonna go,

• 1:36:10Rich Roll?

  I need to go to the bathroom. And I went up to the hotel to see if there was a restroom that I could use. And I noticed that there was like an outdoor bar, you know, and there's a bunch of people sitting out there on a beautiful day, you know, enjoying a cocktail. And I found myself like looking at that bar and the thought occurred to me out of the blue like,

• 1:36:31Rich Roll?

  maybe I should have a beer. Like, maybe, maybe a drink wouldn't be such a bad idea. It's been so long. Like, I don't know, like, you know, what's the harm? What's the foul? It was nothing more than that. And before I knew it, I had like a beer in my hand. I drank a beer.

• 1:36:50Rich Roll?

  I noticed the family was down the beach and I thought, I'll have another beer before they come back. And before I could blink, I think I had five beers in me. It happened so fast. It happened so fast. And, and it wasn't like this mental calculus. It was almost this bizarre, impulsive thing where I had forgotten everything. I'd forgotten all the pain and all the hard work that it took to get sober. All the suffering that I had experienced as being, you know, being a drunk and being a drug addict. And suddenly there I was, in the blink of an eye, sitting on a stool in front of an outdoor beach bar in front of a hotel with a buzz on. Just like that.

• 1:37:37Rich Roll?

  Like nothing.

• 1:37:40Rich Roll?

  And I remember, I think, I can't remember exactly what happened, but then I think Mathis came up.

• 1:37:45Speaker 08

  Yeah, I'll, I'll help you out. So, um, no, we, you wanted us to sneak into this resort pool, which was, you, you were quite gregarious and of course, none of us were any wiser. This hadn't hit, hadn't even thought, hadn't even entered anywhere in our stratosphere, but.

• 1:38:04Speaker 08

  You wanted to go into the hotel to go to the pool, but we were already at the beach. Tyler didn't really want to go, but you really wanted to go. So we all sort of just went along because we were trying to cheer you up after, you know, the race, DNF and all that. And so you had snuck into the pool and we got in. And then Mathis actually told me, I was in the jacuzzi with her and she told me and the other people in the jacuzzi that you were drinking beer. And I automatically corrected her and said, oh, no, honey, daddy doesn't drink beer. And she looked at me again and she repeated it a second time and I corrected her a second time. So then she looked at me again and she said it again and finally the light went on and

• 1:38:49Speaker 08

  I realized what was happening. And so we, you know, gathered the kids and actually Trapper wasn't even with us. It was just Tyler and the two kids. Trapper had flown back to the mainland to take a test or something. And so we, you know, just from my standpoint of being your partner in this experience, it was absolutely mind blowing and devastating beyond anything I've ever experienced because we had suffered and sacrificed for so many years. And finally, we were getting some support and I could not understand or reconcile your

• 1:39:34Speaker 08

  choice in this moment. And so from where I was, I was questioning every single thing about our relationship. I was angry at myself for trusting you, for believing in you. I could not understand how you could humanly choose this at the juncture where we were standing.

• 1:39:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it defies all logic, you know, and that's the, you know, completely dark, mystifying thing about alcoholism. Like there's no rationality that comes into play, right? And as soon as, you know, it was clear to all of you what had occurred, I mean, I copped to it. It wasn't like I tried to pretend like I was like-

• 1:40:18Speaker 08

  You couldn't.

• 1:40:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was like, this is what happened, you know? This is what happened. This is what I did. And, you know, it's a little bit foggy for me and you probably remember it a little bit more clearly, but the upshot of it was that, you know- I said, this is what I did. I don't know why I did it.

• 1:40:39Rich Roll?

  And I can't remember whether I broke down then, or it was a little bit later, but, you know, I ended up going directly to an AA meeting. Tyler took me. I completely broke down emotionally in this AA meeting in Kona. And I had to do that humiliating thing of like calling my friends in recovery back in Los Angeles and telling them what had happened, you know, and saying, please help me. Like, this is what occurred. And I called the people that I trusted the most, told them what had happened. But the point is that, you know, I went right back to AA. So when I look back on it, you know, it was like the lamest relapse ever.

• 1:41:22Speaker 08

  It was a relapse of like, three and a half hours?

• 1:41:25Rich Roll?

  It was like a three hour relapse. Like, there was nothing, you know, like, nothing, nothing, you know.

• 1:41:29Speaker 08

  Thank God, it was nothing, right.

• 1:41:31Rich Roll?

  It wasn't like I crashed a car, or anything like that, but like,

• 1:41:34Speaker 08

  You could have.

• 1:41:34Rich Roll?

  I had like a five beer relapse, after many, many, many years of sobriety, and a very long stint in rehab, and a zillion hours sitting in AA meetings. And immediately went back to the program and have stayed sober over since then. But it was absolutely horrific.

• 1:42:02Rich Roll?

  Buddhist monk, tea master, and founder of Global Tea Hut, Woo Da is one part philosopher, one part ascetic, another part tea harvester, and final part educator. He's all about the Tao of tea as a method of spiritual cultivation. This was one of the most fascinating and soul-expanding conversations I've ever had. And so I think it's a good way to conclude, to wind down this episode with this final segment. Enjoy.

• 1:42:35Speaker 11

  Tea has taught me this, and Zen has also taught me this, which is to learn to have a great love for the simple. To learn how to really, really enjoy and revel in and adore the simplest of things. One of my favorite things in the world, for example, is when the sun is coming through a window and the incense smoke goes through the shaft of sunlight. I absolutely love that. I could watch that in awe for like hours and hours. I just absolutely adore that kind of thing. I love the grains in wood. I love the like, the markings in like a piece of natural stone.

• 1:43:19Speaker 11

  I'm very interested in, in the aesthetics of teapots and, and other really, really simple things. And I think when you cultivate an appreciation for the simple, you're also cultivating an appreciation for life itself. And I've learned to really, really appreciate very, very, very small things. And they don't have to be natural things either. Just today, for example, I'm staying with a couple of friends in Hollywood and I was, I sat for like two minutes just admiring this gorgeous wallet that my friend has. Because I haven't, I don't, I'm, you know, obviously don't have money, so I haven't had a wallet in decades. And he just has this, he had the most amazing wallet. It was just really, really amazing.

• 1:44:03Speaker 11

  And I was looking at it, it was really well crafted and not only well crafted, but seemed like the perfect, most perfectly functional wallet that I had ever seen. So I was really admiring his wallet. And, and so that kind of thing comes from, you know, I guess, you know, like they say, almost, it's almost cheesy, stop and smell the flowers. But just learn to appreciate the simple. And I think that that is a, that is a, that is a practice and a habit that will make life so much more rewarding if you learn to celebrate the little things, because so much of the juice is there. If you ask, you know, because like we were talking about, gratitude is a practice that you get better at. Running is a practice you get better at. Sobriety is a practice you get better at. So is living.

• 1:44:48Speaker 11

  That's why old people are wiser. And if you ask old people, like old couples, like old widows or widowers, right? It's almost cliche, they, they always answer the same. If you ask an old widower or widow, the thing that they miss the most are all the little things, the little quirks and like the way he or she did this or that, or walked or laid down. These are the things that make up a life. These are the things that are really important. So learning to Appreciate the simple. That's the second to last of the Zen practices that I think everybody can benefit from. It's just learning to adore the simplest little things.

• 1:45:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, the question that I was gonna ask before, well, it wasn't really much, it wasn't really as much a question as just an observation, but it was getting exactly to this, which is that it really is the simple things. And we have this overdrive kind of compulsion to over-intellectualize and overthink everything and want to sort of divine some kind of crazy, complicated solution for what ails us, when in truth, it really is as basic as that. Like, the practice of, you know, appreciating the smoke wafting through the window can be as profound as, you know, six months in the chair at the shrink's office or what have you, right?

• 1:46:07Rich Roll?

  And, but for some reason, it's easier for us to do that than it is to just sit still.

• 1:46:16Speaker 11

  Just like it's easier, I mean, for you, the perfect analogy, it's easier for a lot of people to go buy a bag of potato chips that have like 300 ingredients than it is to like, just eat an organic strawberry.

• 1:46:28Speaker 11

  There's like the simplicity in, you know, but actually, when you start like eating, the amazing thing for me about eating vegetarian and vegan diet for so many years is just like how I never get tired of like just celery. And like celery is awesome. And, you know, you can, you can put a little something on celery, but a lot of times cooking, you know, it's the same thing. You can overcook a lot of stuff, especially when it's vegetables. They're, they're just, a lot of it's just really great when it's raw, when it's simple. I mean, I came in here today and your daughter was just eating some berries. And in the center of the berries was some like sauce to dip them in. And I was like, what's that sauce? And she was like, you know, it's got dairy and I'm not gonna eat it. I just, I just love the berries. And she was sitting there eating all the berries.

• 1:47:12Speaker 11

  And, you know, that's just, that's awesome. And they were so bright and gorgeous. And, you know, what a treat for her to be able to have like six different kinds of berries on a plate, you know?

• 1:47:22Speaker 08

  Yeah, it is. I mean, I talk about this a lot also about, I mean, you know, we cook about 70% or 65% of everything that we eat, so we're not all raw. But I also feel like, and when I cook those, it's a very quick cook. Like, I don't cook things all day. And that's why all the recipes in my book are actually very quick, because even if you're cooking, it's just not, it's not that long. But the other thing that I really, I feel like we've lost touch with, and it's just the beauty that is provided in nature around us. Like, when you were talking about your favorite thing, you know, my, one of my favorite things on the planet is a lemon. You know, just a lemon. I can hold a lemon and smell it and feel it and, you know, take little bites out of it. And I just love it. And there's so many things in the plant kingdom

• 1:48:07Speaker 08

  that have been provided us. And, you know, I Instagrammed this week, like artichoke, just an artichoke, like, just look at these shapes that appear in nature. And, you know, nature's just the most beautiful.

• 1:48:19Speaker 11

  And so abundant, I, this week, for the first time in my life, I had a Meyer lemon.

• 1:48:23Speaker 08

  Oh, you had never had one?

• 1:48:24Speaker 11

  I'd never had one. They're amazing.

• 1:48:26Speaker 08

  They're amazing.

• 1:48:27Speaker 11

  Absolutely amazing. They're really good.

• 1:48:28Speaker 08

  So beautiful.

• 1:48:29Speaker 11

  And they put the zest in our food. It was very good.

• 1:48:35Rich Roll?

  All right. I hope you guys enjoyed that. I absolutely cannot wait for 2016 and all the amazing opportunities and bounty and experiences and adventures that that year is sure to bring. And I look forward to sharing with you guys amazing conversations on the horizon. Make sure you go to richroll.com to check out the show notes for this episode. I have the links to all of the full-length episodes of all the podcast segments that were referenced today. So if you missed some of those, go back, please listen to them. They're all amazing, of course. I also want to make this very special announcement that Julie finally launched her own podcast. It's called Divine Throughline. She's got four

• 1:49:20Rich Roll?

  episodes up as of today, two conversational episodes and two, like, healing techniques. It's very different from my podcast. It's very Julie, very spiritual, and very cool. She's doing great with it. She's loving it. And I think this is a really great medium for her. So again, it's called Divine Throughline. You can find it on iTunes. Or you can go to her website, srimati.com, S-R-I-M-A-T-I.com to check that out. Of course, if you want to delve into the entire RRP catalog, the entire of beyond the most recent 50 episodes available on iTunes, I've got an app for that and it's totally free. It's called the Rich Roll app. Just search Rich Roll in iTunes or the App Store.

• 1:50:02Rich Roll?

  It should pop right up, totally free. And that way you can carry around all 200 plus episodes of the podcast right in the palm of your hands. Don't forget to subscribe to my newsletter. No spam, just good stuff, podcast updates and product offers and rebates. On that note, all my nutrition products now through New Year's weekend are 50% off. We are trying to clear out our entire inventory. So it's first come, first served. Check that out as soon as you can. Really great prices on all our remaining nutritional product inventory. Thanks so much for supporting the show, you guys, by telling your friends, for sharing it on social media. I am signing off. This is the last podcast of 2015. I will

• 1:50:46Rich Roll?

  see you guys in the new year. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Merry, merry. Happy holidays. Happy new year. Peace, plants. Namaste.