Surfing For Change: Buy Local, Surf Global

So many things wrong in the world. Melting ice caps. Greenhouse gas emissions. Global climate change. GMO Frankenfoods. Depleted soils. Poisoned fish. Rampant childhood obesity. Unsustainable food systems. Horrifying school lunch programs. Unprecedented hurricanes. Insane tsunamis. Constant forest fires. And oh yeah – how about that Texas-sized flotilla of plasticized garbage goo floating out in the Pacific somewhere? I could go on like this all day. We all could. Because in truth it's easy to identify — and become despondent (if not just altogether passive and nonplussed) about the state of the planet, the environment, our citizenship and basic humanity when you take an honest look at the havoc we have wrecked upon ourselves. F-it. I give up. It's too late. Then you meet a guy like Kyle Thiermann. Pro Surfer. Filmmaker. Public Speaker. Environmentalist. Humanitarian. 24 years old. Suddenly, all that despondency is replaced with hope – optimism for the future of the planet and humanity courtesy of the next generation. I had never heard of Kyle until a buddy of mine posted an image on Instagram a few months back that promoted Kyle's latest short film: Pro Surfers vs. GMO's : I immediately clicked to watch and was honestly moved. Sure, the film is informative and inspiring. But beyond the content, I was genuinely impressed to find such a young guy so passionate about our food system. Digging deeper I realized this doc was nothing new for this Santa Cruz kid, who was raised by documentary filmmaker parents and has been putting out short films on global health and environmental issues for years via Surfing For Change — Kyle's online YouTube series merging surf imagery & lifestyle with current global issues with focus on the power of individuals to create a better world through everyday decisions. Kyle's impact has already been substantial. Beyond speaking gigs at universities across the US and features in publications like Outside Magazine and Surfer Magazine, one of Kyle’s first film projects took a look at global bank funding and suggested that people divest from the Bank of Americas of the world and instead invest in local communities and credit unions. As a direct result of this specific project, Surfing for Change tracked over $110 million of lending power moving out of centralized banks and into local communities. That is serious impact. That is awesome. If that's not enough, Kyle gets extra cool points for being the only person I am aware of to ever deliver a TED Talk without a shirt on. That takes cajones. Be honest: if you were a handsome pro surfer in your early 20's whose job was to travel the world in search of the tastiest waves, how much time do you think you would spend on trying to make a difference in the world? Kyle doesn't have to do what he does. The fact that he chooses of his own volition to invest himself in serving a higher purpose makes his message all the more powerful and resonant. The millennial generation gets a ton of flack for allegedly being entitled and narcissistic. But Kyle upends this presumption as misplaced, if not altogether false. My experience — as both a father of two millennial teenage boys and as someone who spends quite a bit of time with people far younger than myself — is that there are countless young people out there a lot like Kyle. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:06Rich Roll?

  Welcome to the Rich Roll Podcast, episode 82 with pro surfer Kyle Tierman.

• 1:24Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the show, to the RRP, to the Rich Roll Podcast, where each week, we get up close and personal with some of the most compelling forward-thinking, paradigm-breaking, disruptors in health, wellness, fitness, nutrition, environmentalism, spirituality, creativity, art, entrepreneurialism, and above all, life transformation. The goal is simple, to motivate and inspire you to take your life to the next level, to help you blow through the glass ceiling on your innate human potential. In a word, to help you discover, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. My name is Rich Roll. And if you're new to the show, who am I? Well, I'm a dad, I'm a writer, I'm a husband,

• 2:07Rich Roll?

  I'm a plant eating, bike riding, trail running, pool rat. And today I'll be your guide down this audio rabbit hole. So what's going on in the world right now? We got greenhouse gas emissions, we have global climate change, melting ice caps, we have unprecedented hurricanes, tsunamis, forest fires, unsustainable food production systems, the infiltration of GMOs in our food supply, the depletion of our soils, the obesity epidemic, the poisoning of our fish. And oh yeah, how about that Texas sized flotilla of plasticized garbage goo floating out in the Pacific somewhere? All these problems, all these things that

• 2:49Rich Roll?

  we have created, that mankind has created. It's easy to, you know, be depressed about the state of the planet and quite frankly, the state of humanity. When you take a hard look at what we've done to the earth and where we're at, kind of emotionally, mentally, and spiritually with how we're addressing these issues and the debates, I guess, that kind of spring up around it. It's easy to kind of just throw up your arms and say, well, I'm powerless, there's nothing I can do to change this, you know, I'm just gonna watch Honey Boo Boo, or just go on with my day and just give up. Everything's screwed up and it's too late. Then you meet a guy like Kyle Tierman, and suddenly that despondency

• 3:31Rich Roll?

  is replaced with hope. Hope for the future, hope for the next generation, the planet, hope for humanity. He's just one of those kind of guys. Kyle's a pro surfer, he's today's guest, he's a filmmaker, he's a documentarian, he's a humanitarian, and I guess you could call him an environmentalist, of course, as well. I'd never heard of Kyle. Until a few months ago, when a buddy of mine posted an image on Instagram, and it was a picture of a surfer holding a surfboard out in a cornfield, holding a corn cob, and he was standing next to a guy in a hazmat suit that was holding a pitchfork.

• 4:12Rich Roll?

  The surfer was Kyle, and the image was a still picture from this short documentary that Kyle wrote and directed called Surfers vs. GMOs. I was intrigued, so I immediately clicked to watch the video right away, and I have to say, I was really blown away, not just by the great content that this young man was offering, but more by the fact that such a young person was so passionate about the environment, the issue of GMOs, and kind of spreading a positive message. A guy who could just as well be surfing all day, pro-surfer, traveling around, enjoying the surf without a care in the world, and yet, instead of that, he decided to take

• 4:56Rich Roll?

  some action to raise awareness and make a difference on the planet, and that's pretty cool. Then I dug deeper, and I realized that this documentary was nothing new for Kyle, that he's been doing this for a while, and this activism is really kind of interwoven with his pro-surfing career. And I think when he was like, maybe as far back as 22, I think he's like 24 now, Kyle created and hosts a YouTube series called Surfing for Change. And on this channel, Kyle combines surfing imagery and current global issues to highlight the power of individuals in creating a better world through everyday decisions. And the impact of this channel and the content that he's putting out has been pretty substantial.

• 5:40Rich Roll?

  And to give you an idea or an example, one of Kyle's first film projects took a look at global bank funding and suggested that people might be better educated about how our banking system works and the ills of centralized banks when it comes to certain development projects. And he kind of encouraged people to invest in their local community, or put their money in credit unions instead of... As an option and as a direct result of this specific film project Surfing for Change, the channel, this specific film that he made tracked over $110 million of lending power moving out of centralized banks and into local communities. So that's pretty

• 6:23Rich Roll?

  awesome in terms of how one young person can have such a profound impact on our culture, our economy, and the way that we're approaching what we do with our money and how we spend it. Like I always said, you can vote with your dollar. And this is a perfect example of somebody who not only believes in that, but has put that into action. So Kyle's our guest today. And before we get into it, I will just leave you with one thought, which is I think he is the only person, at least the only person I'm aware of, who has ever delivered a TED Talk without a shirt on. And to be clear, he was, he was wearing his wetsuit pulled down to his waist with no shirt. So extra cool points for that. Anyway,

• 7:08Rich Roll?

  it was really cool to talk to Kyle. The millennial generation seems to get a lot of flack. You know, they take a lot of heat like, oh, the millennials, they're lazy, they're entitled, they just want to play video games. And, you know, they want instant gratification on everything. They don't want, they don't understand the value of hard work, blah, blah, blah. But Kyle is a guy who really has shown me, who demonstrates that this assumption, this generalization is, is really misplaced, if not altogether false. Because I know there are lots of young people out there like Kyle committed to service, to making a difference. And if that's the case, which I truly believe it is, I can sleep better

• 7:51Rich Roll?

  at night. And I'm optimistic about our future, humanity, the planet, the millennials, the generation to come, the young people, and our future. So without further ado, let's just get into it. Hope you enjoy the conversation.

• 8:18Rich Roll?

  Friend of mine on Instagram posted the Surfing for Change little icon for the documentary that you did recently and I was like, "Oh, what is this?" I hadn't, I'd never heard of it. I didn't know who you were, but I instantly checked it out and I was like, "Oh, man, this guy is on to something super cool." And I think it was even that day that I emailed you and I was like, "I gotta have you on the podcast." So that was, that was months ago, but we're finally here. So yeah, it's cool to be talking to you, man. And just to kick it off and to give the audience out there an idea of your vibe, I think my first question is, are you the first or are you the only person to have ever delivered a TED Talk without your shirt on?

• 9:01Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I don't know. I, so I gave the TED Talk a few, a few years back in wearing my wetsuit down to my waist. And it was actually a really funny experience because the whole, the whole TED Talk is about this trip I took down to Chile and showing how multinational banks and Bank of America specifically is one of the largest funders of coal power worldwide. And we did a, a project on this little Chilean fishing village that there was going to be a coal plant built right on the beach. And all the locals were against it. And I found

• 9:44Speaker 01

  out that the company called AES Jenner, the coal company, was being underwritten by Bank of America. So we made this short documentary about how when you put your money into a bank, that money doesn't stay there. Banks actually lend your money out and use it to make loans. So we made this little YouTube video about this story. We went down to the beach and went surfing in Chile and then also showed the flip side, which is when you have your money in a local bank or credit union, you can actually stop funding the problem and start funding the solution all in one move. Because instead of your money being sucked out to fund, say, a coal power plant halfway around the world, your money

• 10:27Speaker 01

  traditionally in local banks and credit unions stays within your community. As well, yeah, as well as that local banks have a much more vested interest in the community doing well, so they're less likely to fund things that are inherently going to destroy the environment of a community.

• 10:46Rich Roll?

  Right, and this was really kind of what introduced you to kind of all the things that you're immersed in now, right? Like, this was your first project, it was kind of an eye-opening thing, where you went down to Chile just to surf, which is what you do, you travel around as a pro surfer and get to, you know, find the choice tasties wherever you go. And there was this coal plant going on, and it kind of sparked your curiosity as to how this was happening. And then to understand that Bank of America was what was behind it, and the whole kind of, you know, the machinations that take place in order for a global bank to fund a project like this, and the power of the individual, you know, the choice that, the choices that we all make about where to put our money and how to spend it, and the kind of individual

• 11:29Rich Roll?

  power of the, the single vote to enact change. And, I mean, the, the results of this video and kind of what's taken place as a result of that is pretty amazing, right? Can you speak to that a little bit?

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So this was a video that I made when I was 18, I'm 24 now, and really, the, the goal behind it was to connect this one degree of disconnection. Like you said, I get to travel to these amazing places all around the world, and a lot of the best waves in the world are in developing countries. And how this all started was basically just this, this question I asked, I asked myself about, how is it that something that we do here in California is going to indirectly affect someone halfway around the world?

• 12:22Speaker 01

  Because we live in this, this, this climate right now, where we're so, so impactful, yet we are so disconnected from the consequences of our actions, both positive and negative. So, so this kind of felt like a really perfect... Projects because everything, you know, everyone has a bank and your money is being sucked out of your community, most likely, if you have it in a multinational bank like B of A or Wells Fargo or Chase to fund something that you have no idea. So we released this YouTube video and as I said, we released this video when I was 18 and, and, uh, once it was released, I started getting emails from people who I didn't know

• 13:04Speaker 01

  who were moving their money and companies ended up moving their money, people from all over the world. Um, and since then, we've been able to track the impact of the YouTube video and the, uh, impact as of now is that we've documented over $360 million of lending power being moved out of Bank of America and other multinational banks that fund coal power and into local banks and credit unions around the world. So that was, it was really cool. It was cool for me to, to have that kind of success as, you know, as a kid, as one of my first projects, but it also was, um, it was cool to see that when people know that

• 13:45Speaker 01

  there's something that they can do, they become a lot less apathetic to the big problems. So when, when there's something that they know that they can actually take action on and it, it becomes more simple, then people tend to do it, which, which was a really cool thing because so many people talk about how, how it's really difficult to create change. And I just felt like I kind of stumbled upon that one strategy of just give someone a simple act.

• 14:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and one, one actionable item that they can do that actually is, is, it's not just signing a petition to get somebody else to do something on their behalf or to give your permission for somebody to do something. It's actually taking a very concrete, specific, but simple task that in the aggregate, you know, moves mountains.

• 14:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that was really, and that was really the basis for then the whole Surfing for Change series, which I, uh, do now, which is essentially a, a YouTube series where we cover all different kinds of, of issues, um, and travel around and basically cover current issues through the lens of surfing. So since then, we've covered. Everything from working conditions in Sri Lanka and how you affect the people's working conditions over there to the trash epidemic in Indonesia.

• 15:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I just watched that video. That's amazing how much garbage there is in the water there.

• 15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we cover all different kinds of issues, but the theme that that remains true throughout the Surfing for Change series is that it covers an issue that you may be one degree disconnected from but are most likely having an indirect impact on.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  But at the core of it, really, I mean, you know, the website is Surfing for Change, but really, kind of, you go to that website and, you know, right in your face immediately is the issue of GMOs. So that seems to be the first and foremost, kind of like, you know, predominant kind of issue that you're tackling at the moment.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  At the moment, yeah. It's our latest video, so we make sure it's front and center. And we really, we come out with a couple of videos every year, but the video is just one part of a really more thorough campaign that we run with each issue we cover. And the goal of Surfing for Change is not to be like the hub where you can learn everything you need to know about GMOs and we'll be on this issue for years to come, because we won't, we'll be covering other issues. But the goal of it is to really shine the light on people and organizations that are doing the really good work. And that's kind of been our our goal from the get-go is just to to shine the spotlight on these people,

• 16:35Speaker 01

  because we have a big, big young demographic, kind of like your podcast of of young people, you know, 18 to 35, who who watch our stuff. And it really is movies for for the person who won't sit through a two-hour-long documentary. So it's really cool to be able to kind of... Have Surfing for Change be a conduit to other people and other organizations who could really use that energy. For example, when we made our last documentary, The Indonesia Trash Tubes, which you can see at surfingforchange.com, we highlighted that group that was installing a liquid waste

• 17:19Speaker 01

  processor at Uluwatu, because Uluwatu is this really famous surf spot in Indonesia. And a lot of the kitchen waste and sewage just goes directly out into the lineup. So there's this local group over there and they need to raise 50 grand to install this liquid waste processing system. And it was really cool because I got an email from the guys over there who said that the video that we had made had gotten them a lot of donations to help get the funding they needed to install this liquid waste processing system. So that was really cool. And that video has almost half a million views on YouTube.

• 17:58Speaker 01

  So that's kind of, I feel like, where the direct change can take place, like rather than us saying, "Oh, we're the experts on it." We're more apt to try and just kind of shed some light on other people doing really cool work.

• 18:15Rich Roll?

  A little bit of light on it, yeah. And I think that it's interesting, I mean, you know, sort of conventional wisdom about, you know, the surfer, you know, what's the first thing that comes to somebody's mind? Like, well, it's, you know, whether it's like a Spicoli character or somebody like that. But in my experience and the surfers that I know, they're very, you know, they're very conscious and they're very sort of, they're global citizens, I guess is what I'm trying to say, in the sense that they're young people that have the opportunity to travel all over the world and get a different perspective on kind of how different cultures operate in turn, you know, in contrast to this sort of American centrist idea about how we live our lives. And that's given you the opportunity to kind of shine a light on certain things that are

• 19:00Rich Roll?

  not right, or things that we may not be, you know, innately familiar with so that we can enact change. And it's just, it's really encouraging to see someone like yourself who's so young, who could be, I mean, you could just be surfing and, you know, without a care in the world, and you're making this choice to say, "You know what? Like, I can tie my passion to service in a way that gives all of what I'm doing more meaning."

• 19:25Speaker 01

  Well, I appreciate that. Thanks. Um, yeah, I think that surfing as a sport is unique in a few ways. Firstly, because as surfers, we're more directly affected by the state of the environment than almost any other sport in the world. I mean, when it, when it rains, you know, we're the first ones to get sick if there's going to be a bunch of runoff going out into the ocean. Um, so we're directly affected in that way. Another thing that I think is cool about surfing, as you said, is that we get to, if we're lucky enough to be the ones to get to travel, we get to travel to a lot of, a lot of developing countries, a lot of places where a lot of, you know, Americans or just white people in general don't go. So, um,

• 20:09Speaker 01

  if we think about it consciously, we actually get to be ambassadors for, for our country and, and represent, you know, hopefully ourselves, you know, in a way that is, um,

• 20:22Speaker 01

  that's good, you know? I, I, I think that that's a really cool opportunity, just getting to travel and kind of show that not all Americans are just stupid, closed-minded that people.

• 20:34Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and, and also the, the ability to impact these underdeveloped communities. I mean, it's not like, you know, a lot of these surf spots are in areas where, you know, it's not a four seasons resort. You're in a tiny village somewhere that's quite remote and, and you get to see how, you know, sort of a lot of people live, you know, which in, in ways that we may not imagine, you know, sort of, you know, incredibly impoverished, et cetera. Um, and it reminds me of a, I have a friend who's a pro triathlete. His name's Chris Leado and, and he's sort of doing something analogous to what you're doing. He's got a, a nonprofit called More, uh, called More Than Sport.

• 21:12Rich Roll?

  And, uh, it, it was born out of a result of him traveling all over the world to do these triathlons and all these phenomenal, you know, beautiful locations and he would stay in a nice resort and then you're out on the bike course in the middle of the race and you're riding through these, you know, kind of third world villages and you get to kind of see how the people in these, in these lands actually live. And so, Started an organization where the athletes or whoever wants to contribute stays after the race and they, you know, build houses or they contribute, you know, they dig a well or they do, you know, they do some other kind of act that contributes to the long-term kind of, you know, greater well-being of that particular community. And it seems very

• 21:55Rich Roll?

  similar to what you're doing through your YouTube channel and your outreach, etc.

• 22:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, yeah, I would say that probably the only difference is that we tend to highlight other people who are doing really good work. I mean, more than anything, we're a media company more than anything else. But I do, I really agree with you just in the sense that like, in our current society, athletes and celebrities are the people who are the ones who everyone listens to. So if they're able to use their platform on behalf of something bigger, it can create a huge amount of influence. And, you know, I was talking to Dustin Barca, who's a pro surfer and MMA fighter over on Hawaii, and he's heading up this whole GMO

• 22:43Speaker 01

  issue over there. And there was a point when we didn't actually include it in the Surfing for Change video, but I was talking about, you know, if there are, if there is another issue in another community that people wanted to get involved in, what would you recommend to them to get involved? And he, one of the first things he said was, find an athlete or a celebrity or someone in your community and teach them about this issue. Because unfortunately, sort of unfortunately, sort of fortunately, those are the people that are, that the rest of the world listens to. They have the microphone. I mean, like, people logically should be, should

• 23:27Speaker 01

  be listening to scientists and academics, but they're not. You know, they listen to what LeBron James says, they listen to what, you know, people like yourself and Kelly Slater and all those people have to say. So I think that it's a, it's an incredible platform and it always makes me happy to see, see pro athletes using, using their platform on behalf of something bigger.

• 23:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, and the, you know, the surfing community is really all about that. I mean, you know, Kelly takes every opportunity he can to spread healthy messages in a variety of forms and he's, he's, you know, very involved in this GMO issue.

• 24:04Speaker 01

  He is, yeah. Um, it's, I would say that it's probably one of his most passionate issues because he's also very health conscious. I mean, he's the, he's the youngest and oldest world champion in surfing. I mean, he, he won his first world tour before he was, he won his first world title before he was allowed to drink a beer, you know, and now he's 41 and he's going after it again. I mean, he won his, his last world title, I think when he was 39. So it's, it's, it's ridiculous. And I, I've had a chance to, to interview him a few times and, um, you know, he was talking about how, you know, he gets, people come up to him and they're like, hey, man, you know, I, I just turned 30 and like,

• 24:48Speaker 01

  you're really like a, an inspiration for me as I'm getting older. He's like, you're not old. I'm, I'm 41. Like you had some time to go before you can start, start saying, you know, on that end of it. But, um, but it's cool to see someone who's, who's that health conscious. So it's obviously, um, obviously a, an important, an important issue, you know, however contentious it might be, because he takes a lot of heat for stuff that he, that he says, but I think that it's.

• 25:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, I didn't know that. Why? Because he, he sort of preaches a holistic medicine approach?

• 25:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I just, I, I think it's, it's with everyone who has that big of a, a microphone, you know, people are gonna, it's, there's gonna be controversy around it, but I'm proud of him for standing up for what he believes in. I think it's awesome. Um, but you know, I mean GMOs, GMOs specifically are such a broad issue and there's so, so many just minute factors that go in, go into it. You know, I mean, you could be, you could talk about GMOs for weeks on end and, and in our, go for it.

• 25:53Rich Roll?

  Let's get it. Yeah. No, I was just gonna say, let's, let's get into it a little bit. Why don't, why don't we start it off by, by just explaining a little bit about what GMOs are. And then I want to talk about Hawaii as really kind of like the battlefield here for this issue because it's real, I mean, Hawaii really is the epicenter of where this debate is really occurring. And that's where the activism is, is very, uh, you know, prominent and where people really are educated and they're taking a stand. And you've been on the front lines of that. So I want to hear about that.

• 26:34Rich Roll?

  So what is a GMO?

• 26:37Speaker 01

  GMO is a genetically modified organism. And it is the process of physically injecting cells from one species into another species. And it's different than crossbreeding, you know, where you have like an apple and a pear to create like an Asian pear. It's more like injecting a bacteria into a seed to have it basically have certain characteristics or traits that are desirable. You know, it could be anything from wanting to, you know, change the color of a strawberry

• 27:21Speaker 01

  to making it bigger. Predominantly, like by far and away.

• 27:26Rich Roll?

  Pest resistant.

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, what most GMOs are used for is to be able to withstand heavy amounts of pesticides. So scientists will create a GMO seed and that will be resistant to a certain type of pesticide that then, you know, a company like Monsanto will develop. So then what farmers can do is they can plant this GMO seed, you know, like corn or soy. They can monocrop for thousands of acres, this one seed, and then they can spray it all with pesticides and all the weeds and the bugs will die. You know, and there are various, there are various ways.

• 28:12Speaker 01

  You know, one is to be able to withstand pesticide. The other is to have there be an insecticide directly, directly in the GMO. So if a bug eats the.

• 28:26Speaker 01

  The plant, its stomach will explode and it'll die. But that's predominantly the main reason for creating GMOs, so that they can withstand pesticides.

• 28:36Rich Roll?

  And on a surface level, that sounds like a good thing, right? Like, oh, well, here we can get greater crop yields. We can, you know, avoid, you know, all these, these problems that come with our crops getting destroyed, you know, as a result of pestilence and all this sort of thing. So what's wrong with that, right? Like, so explain a little bit about why this is perilous and why we as consumers should be concerned about this.

• 29:02Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 29:06Speaker 01

  Well, on the level of Hawaii, which is ground zero for GMO testing and development worldwide. That's why we went to Hawaii to make our documentaries, because the main GMO companies in the world, like Monsanto, Syngenta, Pioneer, Dow, DuPont, they all have their testing facilities on the Hawaiian islands and they lease thousands of acres out to basically just test and develop their products. And the issue there is that they, they get to spray heavy amounts of pesticides on these plants adjacent to schools and hospitals and neighborhoods.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  So the locals get the brunt of the excessive use of pesticides being used to test out these, these, their new products. And there's no actual product that comes from it. You would think that like, oh, they're gonna, like Hawaii must have a ton of agriculture then, because they have thousands of acres of these big companies doing their testing there. But it mainly is just for testing and development. Most of the seeds don't actually go to market. And the ones that do go to the market aren't human-grade quality to eat. They go to basically a cow, a cow to turn into your Happy Meal.

• 30:31Rich Roll?

  Right, and I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but these corporations, the Monsanto's and the like, are gigantic landholders across Hawaii on all of the islands, or maybe not all of them, but I know Maui, Oahu, Kauai, the Big Island. And the reason that they like to test out in Hawaii is that it is this perfect Petri dish sort of scenario because it's isolated and it allows them to sort of remove all other variables from their sort of experiments with these things and allows them to get sort of clean results. So they like to do, they like to perform all of their development and testing on Hawaii.

• 31:12Rich Roll?

  And that's why, there's so much activity in Hawaii that that's why this is really kind of like, you know, the front lines of this entire issue because the community really is kind of taken up in arms. And, you know, the protests that are going on in Hawaii are massive, like tons of people are showing up and, you know, protesting what's happening out there.

• 31:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely. So you're correct in that. And then another reason Hawaii is ground zero for GMOs is that they have very lax regulatory laws. So a company like Syngenta is allowed to use, you know, a lot of restricted use pesticides that are banned in over 60 countries, banned or heavily restricted in over 60 countries around the world. So, for example, Syngenta is allowed to use atrazine in Hawaii where in their home country of Switzerland has been banned. So they get to, basically, a lot of the Hawaii state legislation is very pro-GMO and allows

• 32:18Speaker 01

  them to get away with things that they wouldn't be able to get away with in other places.

• 32:23Rich Roll?

  But a lot of, so what I gather from what you're saying, though, is that a lot of the protests emanate from the pesticides sort of blowing over into their communities and in schools and, you know, what's in the air, as much as it is about GMO, GMOs in the actual food that we're eating.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that's where our, our video really was kind of ground zero. And it all ties together, obviously, but we chose to focus on just this initial, how GMOs are created, what's the initial process that makes it happen. But I think that it is a good... Actually, a microcosm for even the just the larger global issue of GMOs because kind of our, our conclusion of the video is that there's a ton of secrecy around GMOs. You know, the, the big issue in Hawaii is that these companies don't need to disclose

• 33:19Speaker 01

  what chemicals they're using, uh, when they're using them, how much they're using of them. So there's no, you can't do studies to see why all these people are getting sick. Um, but people are getting sick, close to, close to the, the testing fields, but then you can't prove any of it because there, there is no, uh, disclosure around what, what pesticides they're using. But I-

• 33:47Rich Roll?

  Did, are there anti, uh, are there, uh, anti gag laws that, that apply as well? Like, you know, in the livestock industry with, uh, there are these laws that exist that won't allow somebody to go in and kind of infiltrate. Like if a journalist gets hired to go work in a slaughterhouse and then, you know, writes an article about all the abuses, that would be considered against the law.

• 34:07Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:08Rich Roll?

  So I'm wondering if that's the case with these companies out in Hawaii.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. Um, but really the, my understanding of the movement over there right now is that the two main goals are to first get disclosure around what is being sprayed in the air, super close to schools and neighborhoods. Um, and secondly, uh, to, to replace some of this, a lot of this testing land with small organic farms, uh, that is, that will actually produce food for Hawaii. Because as much as Hawaii has, you know, all these growing seasons, a perfect place to grow food, Hawaii imports 90% of all of their food.

• 34:56Speaker 01

  So they're highly unsustainable, just in their ability to grow food right now.

• 35:01Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's surprising. I wouldn't have thought that.

• 35:04Speaker 01

  Yes, that's kind of the second, the second goal of this whole movement really is to start producing food that will actually stay on the island, uh, and feed the people.

• 35:15Rich Roll?

  It's interesting too with the, you know, the testing to develop these pesticides. I mean, you're always reading about how, you know, suddenly there's some genetic mutation and, you know, the insect that the pesticide was supposed to prevent from eating the crops, suddenly they found a way around it and now they're eating it again, whether it's Roundup or whatever it is, nature always seems to find a way. And it seems to me that there's such an inherent human arrogance that comes into play with respect to these products, like as if we're going to finally figure out how to get the upper hand on nature and we're going to develop the ultimate seed and the ultimate pesticide

• 35:58Rich Roll?

  that, you know, forever is going to solve this problem and allow us to kind of, you know, over farm this land and, you know, deplete the soil. And it's also very short sighted and, and self-centered and arrogant, you know, and it's, it's not a sustainable solution to these problems. The solution is to do exactly what you just said, which is to get back to the root of, of how we produce healthy foods for everybody, which is organic farming and finding a sustainable way to constantly enrich the soil as we reap it.

• 36:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you. It is so arrogant of us to think that we have it all figured out. I mean, yeah, humans are great and we're really smart, but when we think that we can beat nature, you know, on a, on a fundamental level and that we know, we know what's better, you just run into all these problems, like you were saying, where you get these, these super weeds and you get all of the health problems that we're, we're seeing from GMOs. It is ridiculous. I mean, what I heard recently, what does GMO stand for? It stands for God Move Over.

• 37:14Rich Roll?

  Right. It's like having a water balloon in your hands and you're squeezing it. And if you squeeze it, something's gonna pop out. And then you push that part back in and then something else pops out on the other side. Like, I don't think that we're ever gonna be able to sort of figure this out through these means. You know, they're just, they're all short-term solutions. Meanwhile, we're depleting the soil at such a rapid rate that even if you go back to organic farming, there's no nutrients in that soil. You know, so even if you, you know, the food that you would pull out of that land would still be very nutrient-poor, you know? And so, we've gotta find a way to figure out sustainable solutions to create, you know, high nutrient-density foods

• 37:57Rich Roll?

  for, you know, an ever-increasing large population. And certainly, you know, I don't have a solution to that. It's not like I have the answer to it. All I know is that we're sideways right now. And, and to kind of, you know, I think it's important for everybody to educate themselves about what's going on in Hawaii and to get involved. Because, you know, if, if we lose there, then it becomes, you know, sort of like a domino effect. And I think that to be able to prevail there sets an example for how this issue is going to play out in the other states across the country.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree. And, you know, on the, the hopeful side, though, I've covered all different kinds of issues. And I would say that GMOs are close to hitting a tipping point right now. With the, with the amount of awareness that has, awareness and action that is spreading around this issue, I think that it's, things are, are moving for the better. I just recently read a, a statistic that came out by the Hartman Group. And they showed that in 2007, 15% of people said that they avoided eating GMOs. In 2010, that statistic rose to 25%.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  In 2013, 39% of people said they avoided eating GMOs. Um, I mean, the organic food market is growing at such a rapid rate. I think that, um, things are getting better. Um, and you know, I- I'm not ignorant to the fact that Monsanto is a company that's so big, they're never gonna go away, but I think that with the market decisions that are shifting right now, they may move away from GMOs in the future, which is hopeful. And back to what you were talking about on having these nutrient depleted land, all this nutrient depleted land and how it's

• 39:59Speaker 01

  not as sustainable. It's also just makes our food systems more brittle. It makes our food systems more brittle when we give the control of all of our food to a few companies that have very little, are very poorly regulated, first of all, so they can do kind of whatever they want. And secondly, it's like, when your food comes from thousands and thousands of miles away, what happens when a natural disaster hits? You know, what happens when you need food quickly? So that's, in addition to local food being more sustainable, it

• 40:42Speaker 01

  also makes communities much more resilient, just in the same way that when you have your money in a local bank or credit union, it makes your community more resilient, because the money stays within your community. So I think there's a theme there throughout a lot of different issues, just the whole decentralization of power also really allows for more innovation.

• 41:07Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm encouraged by your optimism. I mean, it's easy to be pessimistic about this. I mean, even in the first couple frames of your documentary, you're just going around, you know, at the beach, saying, hey, what's a GMO? And people are, you know, absolutely have no idea what it even is. And in California, as you know, as you well know, Prop 37 was defeated, which was simply an initiative to require food manufacturers to label their food products as to whether they had GMOs in them or not. It wasn't even, it wasn't even an attempt to- Regulate GMOs in our food system, it was simply a right to know initiative that through an enormous amount of money and lobbying efforts on behalf of the Monsanto's

• 41:52Rich Roll?

  of the world, they were able to defeat that. And that makes me sort of pessimistic, or it makes me realize how easily manipulated the public is, because if you just sat down with somebody and explained it to them, of course, they would want to know. Of course, they would want a label on their food. But through fear tactics, etc., you know, these companies were able to convince people that this was not in their interest. And that that definitely sort of is dismaying to me.

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it takes, it takes all kinds, you know, to, and it takes, it's gonna take people getting involved as citizens. How did you get involved in this? Was this mostly just from an athletic standpoint, you researching food? I'd love to hear a little bit about how you got.

• 42:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you know, my story, I'm 47 now, and my story is, you know, I was a, I was a corporate lawyer, I was a litigator, just, you know, working hard and kind of trying to climb the corporate ladder. And I'd been an athlete in college. I swam for Stanford back in the 1980s, late 1980s. But when that chapter was over, that was done. And it was just about my career. And shortly before I turned 40, I had a bit of a health crisis. I got, you know, I got quite overweight. I was like 50 pounds overweight, and I'd just been eating junk food and like overstressed, overworked, not taking care of myself, not exercising, and just eating what a friend of mine calls a window diet, you know, if they hand it to you through the window, like cheeseburgers, french fries, nachos, Pizza

• 43:19Rich Roll?

  Hut, Taco Bell, you know, you name it. And it just all caught up to me. And I kind of had an epiphany moment where I decided to, you know, change, change my life, change my diet. And I, it's a long story, but I ultimately ended up adopting a plant-based diet. And that gave me all this energy, and I lost all this weight, and I started exercising again. And, and, you know, one thing led to another. And before I knew it, I was competing in ultra endurance triathlons and did some crazy endurance stuff. And that, you know, that got some press, and I got a book deal out of that. And now here I am doing a podcast, which is, and not practicing law anymore. So, you know, when you think you have your life figured out, and you know the direction that you're, you're heading in, you always

• 44:02Rich Roll?

  need to remain open to, to newer possibilities about what you're supposed to be doing.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  That's great. Have you read, I'm guessing you've read Born to Run, right?

• 44:13Rich Roll?

  Of course, yeah.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, so I surf for Cliff Bar, they're one of my sponsors, and they do this athletic summit each year where they invite all their athletes up to Cliff Bar in Emeryville, and you get to do all this fun stuff and meet all the other athletes. And right when I was reading Born to Run, I see this guy, and he's got a name tag, it's Scott Jurick. And I go up to him, like, dude, you're the guy from the book, like, let me get your autograph, it's pretty funny.

• 44:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he's cool, he's a star, man. He, yeah, his book came out right around the same time mine did, too. He's a great guy, I know him a little, I don't know him that well, but I have met him. Was Timothy, was Timothy Olson there? I can't remember whether he's a Cliff Bar athlete or not. He's another.

• 44:59Speaker 01

  I don't know, I couldn't tell you, there are a lot of us, they sponsor Olympic athletes, and they sponsor action sports athletes, but I'm always interested to hear what other kind of training regiments and that kind of stuff other athletes are doing. I've been getting pretty psyched on surfing bigger waves this last year, and on surfing Mavericks and that kind of stuff. So I've been training pretty hard for that kind of stuff. Actually, right before we started talking, I was doing a pool swimming and like do a lot of underwater laps and that kind of thing. And I took a really fun course, well, it was kind of fun, it was pretty intense.

• 45:41Speaker 01

  Last year, it's underwater breath-holding course, three-day course, really fun, where they they teach you how to hold your breath for a really long time, and a lot of mental exercises and stuff. But I'm always interested to hear about what other athletes are going on.

• 45:59Rich Roll?

  I had a guy on the podcast a while back named Tank Sade, who's one of the one of the world's best freedivers, so we had an amazing conversation about what it's like to hold your breath for that long, and what that kind of support and discipline involves. It's pretty cool.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  It is really cool. It's also just, you know, something about, I mean, I've been a surfer my whole life, but I've only practiced holding my breath for the last year, basically, since I've gotten into surfing big waves. And it's, it's really cool to have something so quickly that you have to mentally click into.

• 46:34Speaker 01

  You know, it's just like automatically you have to get into this meditative state and tell your heart rate to slow down and do all these kinds of things that are just really fun. It's rare in just daily life to have to click into those states, but they're really rewarding when you get to do it.

• 46:52Rich Roll?

  Well, that's really interesting because basically if you're going to get out there and surf Mavericks, I mean, it's one of the most perilous situations you could ever put yourself in. So then you're in this conflict between your sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system because if you get tossed and you go under, your life depends upon you remaining calm and figuring out how you're going to conserve your air and kind of relax and make it through, you know, this tumultuous moment of getting tossed around by this enormous wave versus, you know, probably every synapse in your body, which is saying panic and, you know, swim to the surface as fast as you can. And, you know, I think it would take a tremendous amount of mental discipline to be able to

• 47:35Rich Roll?

  kind of manage that kind of crisis situation.

• 47:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is, but it's, and yeah, I've been in a few of those situations too where it's interesting because I've actually felt like it was easier in the situation to click into that state than it has been like in training. Like, you know, just like I said, like right before we were talking, I was doing underwater laps in a pool. And it's like, you know, there's one time, you know, you don't get a good breath and you're like, oh God, I kind of just want to come up. But I feel like that's part of the training is forcing yourself to believe that it is the real situation every time. Because when it is the real situation, you don't have that, you know, timeout button to be like, okay, I'm just going to come up because I got, I got a little water in

• 48:22Speaker 01

  my lungs when I took that breath, that kind of thing. But, um, yeah, it's fun to be able to, when you can click into that state. I think it's a very empowering feeling, actually.

• 48:33Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, what's driving you to try to go surf these big waves?

• 48:42Speaker 01

  You know, I um, when I was a kid, I I I never was like, oh, I'm gonna be go surf the biggest wave in the world. I I've always just, I think that what it is, is that the more time you spend at something, the more your comfort zone, the more you always want to push your comfort zone, right? And for someone who has never surfed a day in their life, pushing their comfort zone means surfing a two-foot wave, you know? For someone who's who's, you know, like the the the best of the best, like the Greg Longs or the Shane Dorian's, like surfing an 80-foot wave is what those guys push their comfort zone.

• 49:23Speaker 01

  For me right now, it's like surfing like a 30, 40-foot wave, like really pushes my comfort zone. So I've always I I I've always prided my myself on being calculated, you know, and and not going out in waves that I didn't think I could handle, but it is it is fun and it's an empowering feeling to to push your borders and see see how far you can go, especially when you do it in a way that's that's responsible. Um, so I really like that. And it's and just, I mean, there is the rush aspect of it, like it's just it's the most most exhilarating feeling in the world, catching a huge wave and then making it and kicking out in the channel is just like

• 50:06Speaker 01

  it feels it feels really damn good. So there is that part of it. Um, but uh, yeah, I think that that's just as as an athlete, I'm sure that you can kind of empathize with just just pushing yourself to see how far you can go. Um.

• 50:23Rich Roll?

  What's the uh, what is what's the biggest wave that you've surfed to date?

• 50:28Speaker 01

  Um, I probably probably the biggest wave was like a 35-foot wave, like out at uh Mavericks, like 35, maybe 40 feet on the face. Um.

• 50:37Rich Roll?

  And you're getting, are you getting towed out for that?

• 50:39Speaker 01

  No, you know, you paddle into paddle into the waves.

• 50:42Rich Roll?

  Paddle into that, wow.

• 50:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it was also a really cool experience. My housemate is a guy named Tyler Fox, who's a pro surfer. And he got, he, he's in the Mavericks contest and he placed fourth in the Mavericks contest this year. Um, and just, you know, it's like you're a product of your influences. So we go out and we train together. We do a lot of underwater exercises just out at, uh, Pleasure Point in Santa Cruz where we'll go out and bring wa- bring weights out and have a mask and have the weights drop you to the bottom of the ocean and you try and take like 10 or 15 steps with the weights and then come up.

• 51:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 51:20Speaker 01

  Cause that's, I found that that's really more helpful than, uh, than just doing static apnea breath holds where you just hold, try and hold your breath for like four minutes or something. It's more realistic to like, do something where you're actually, your heart rate is up and then you're holding your breath. But I agree with you about the, the sympathetic and parasympathetic, um, nervous systems, because you're, it, it definitely, uh, really is, is an unintuitive thing to do.

• 51:49Rich Roll?

  Well, your ability to ride the wave is going to be completely dependent upon your, your facility to remain calm and focused in a situation where if you took a step backwards and actually evaluated what you were doing, you would, you know, any normal human being would absolutely panic, right? So, so how do you do that? Like I, I would imagine it's just incrementally, you know, you, you, the, the next wave you ride is a little bit bigger and a little bit bigger. So that by the time you're, you know, you're on the face of, you know, a real Mavericks wave, you've, you've been there, you know, this is only a little bit percentage increase over, you know, your comfort level.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean Mavericks definitely, it's, it, one thing about surfing that's kind of, uh, a wish wasn't true is that like, that you, you have to do it when the waves are up and when there's a big swell. So it can go from being flat to having there be a huge swell. So a lot of what I do to try and prepare is, is just doing exercises and, and training in the pool because you could be surfing two foot waves in Santa Cruz the day before and then it's 40 foot out at Mavericks and you're like,

• 52:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:54Speaker 01

  Okay, you know, but, but definitely I think that, that training is, it's good physically, but also just mentally being able to, uh, To have that kind of confidence going into it is really important.

• 53:08Rich Roll?

  Right. Right. Of course, I got a little blower right out my window right now, right when I do the podcast. So, sorry, everybody out there that can hear that. How did this all start for you? I mean, did you, did you grow up in Santa Cruz?

• 53:21Speaker 01

  I did grow up in Santa Cruz, yeah.

• 53:22Rich Roll?

  Uh huh, and, and, and did you have parents that were, you know, sort of encouraging to you to pursue this dream? Or how does it all unfold?

• 53:30Speaker 01

  Um, yeah, I did have, um, very encouraging parents. You know, I'm the youngest of five. All my older brothers and sisters surf and a lot of our family are filmmakers. So film was a natural median for me to get my message out. And then just, yeah, I think a natural, uh, interest in, you know, what, what is the influence that one person has in their daily life?

• 54:00Speaker 01

  And just an interest in storytelling. So it all just kind of, it all fit together in that way. And I've been a surfer since I was a really little kid so that it made sense to want to incorporate surfing

• 54:15Speaker 01

  into my work. But I mean, I've always, I've always prided myself on being able to what I call stack functions, where it's like if you love doing one thing and you have a work doing another thing, like how can you combine the two? You know, so like I loved surfing, I love filmmaking, I love traveling. Um, you know, I love researching all these different current issues. So it was kind of like I had all these, I, I literally made a whiteboard like when I was 17 and wrote down all the things that gave me energy and all the things that, that I really, really enjoyed doing. You know, so surfing, traveling, you know, media and filmmaking, um, public speaking,

• 54:58Speaker 01

  covering current issues and, and wanting to have, uh, a, a positive impact on the world. Critical thinking, those were all just things that I valued. And then it all just, my career kind of trickled down from that whiteboard. And, and all those goals that I had set. And then, I mean, it's funny because you, you never really feel like you get there, right? You never feel like you're like, oh, I've. I'm successful now, like that kind of thing. It's just this constant growth, but every once in a while I get to kind of just take a 10,000 foot look at my life and, and reflect on the fact that like I'm so lucky that I get to, you know, uh, surf and travel and, and

• 55:40Speaker 01

  do the Surfing for Change series and, and speak at universities. It's like, all these things have, have kind of, uh, manifested just from this whiteboard that I made when I was 17.

• 55:51Rich Roll?

  That's really amazing. And I think that's really, that's a really powerful message, I think for, you know, my listeners. I mean, probably the overarching theme of this podcast is how can you access, you know, a more authentic version of yourself? How can you, you know, sort of live more fully in, in a more,

• 56:10Rich Roll?

  in a way that is more personally meaningful to you? And the idea that, that someone like yourself at such a young age, I mean, 17 years old, it's like your brain is still forming, you know, and you had the, you had the wherewithal to say, I need to map out, you know, how I'm going to live my life. What are the things that are important to me? What do I want to be doing with my time? I mean, that's incredibly mature for somebody of your age. I mean, you know, a 17, I mean, when I was 17, that was not going through my mind. You know what I mean? I, it wasn't until I was like 40 that I, that I had that kind of, you know, uh, maturity to reflect on, you know, how I was spending my time. So that's really remarkable, you know, and I'm, I'm so,

• 56:51Rich Roll?

  I admire, but also admittedly a little bit jealous of, of young people who can, who can figure out what their passion is at such an early age, because then your whole life is in front of you to kind of, to kind of tap into that. And you don't have to be as afraid because you don't really have anything to lose. You know, you're not married, you don't have kids, you don't have a mortgage, you don't, you, you have the ability to kind of sit down and construct the life that you want. And to, and to the extent that you were able to kind of do that and then actualize it, that's really super cool. And it's, I think it's rare.

• 57:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I appreciate it. I think that definitely, you know, I was had a lot of privileges and a lot of things going my way that allowed me to kind of access what it is that I really loved at a young age, you know, and really, you know, have a support system to to allow me to go out and and tackle it. Um, but I mean, a- a- at this point in my life, really, like, I don't, who knows what's gonna happen. I'm twenty four now. Who knows what's gonna happen in the next ten years, but um, someone told me something really interesting that I've been thinking about recently where they say in your twenties, you learn and then in your thirties, you earn. So it's just like at this point in my life, like, I just, I I have the opportunity to be able to

• 58:06Speaker 01

  learn about a lot of different things, you know, filmmaking, current issues, and I just love that. So whatever, you know, success or failures come out of that, um, I'm just kind of just trying to learn as much as possible at this point in my life, honestly.

• 58:23Rich Roll?

  Well, you're on the right track and, you know, the the overarching theme really is that you followed your heart, right? You followed your passions and, you know, had you had different parents or grown up differently, you know, despite a passion for surfing, it wouldn't have been surprising for a parent to say, hey, you know what? Time to put the surfboard down. Like, you gotta get real about your life and, you know, forget about all that. Like, you know, how are we doing? How are the grades? How are, you know, all these sorts of things like we're sort of conditioned culturally um, to, you know, prioritize certain things above other things and and kind of what we're passionate about or that sort of childlike joy that we find in certain pursuits that aren't necessarily careers by, you know, kind of mainstream parameters, get get pushed aside.

• 59:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I I appreciate that. And and I will say, though, that, you know, I mean, it definitely hasn't been all rainbows and butterflies and like Kyle found his passion and then was able to go do it like

• 59:17Rich Roll?

  I'm sure it's not.

• 59:18Speaker 01

  The amount of times that I've doubted myself, the amount of times that I am, you know, sitting at the computer like where I need to upload a YouTube video. I'm just like, oh, God, like, this thing's gonna suck. It's not gonna make any difference. Like, I'm gonna be ostracized by my friends. Like, just the the amount of fear that goes into any dream, I think is really important to.

• 59:44Speaker 01

  To recognize and that and that it never really goes away was a big thing that I that I learned. Cause I thought that it was one of those things where it's like, oh, you're afraid and then you succeed and then you're never afraid again. But it's like fear just continues to come up at all points in our lives. But I I I feel like one thing that I've I've put a lot of effort into um is just my my relationship with my fear. Cause I have a huge, huge fear of failure, you know, I've always had this fear of failure, like even especially like kind of going out and at a young age doing this unconventional. Life like fear that it isn't gonna work, that it wasn't gonna work out and that it isn't gonna work out like constantly cross my mind.

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  But but just to what helps me get through that fear, I would say is just. Just understanding that everyone has that fear. It's not a unique, it's it's not a unique feeling. It's not a unique emotion and it's just about. Understanding what what thoughts I'm having are true and what aren't true and and what are. What what thoughts are healthy, you know, I mean, I'm sure that you can you can relate to that, you know, when you're running an ultra marathon and you. You know, you're halfway there and you're really tired, like certain thoughts, I'm sure, like, oh, I can't do this. I'm not. Strong enough and and to be able to to have the mind control to put push those thoughts aside or just let them kind of.

• 1:01:12Speaker 01

  Go through and then focus your attention on the positive thoughts of that, like I will finish the race. I can do this like.

• 1:01:19Rich Roll?

  I. Right, I mean, I think it's, yeah, yeah, it's about, it's it's not about not having fear and I think that that it's very kind of commonplace for people to look at their heroes or people that. You know, they sort of aspire to model their lives after and assume that that those people have lived, you know. Sort of these charmed lives where they don't entertain fear in the same way that we do. And I think that what you said is spot on, which is that we all have fear. It's it's our relationship to that fear. It's how we choose to act or not act in the face of it and to understand, you know, what part of that fear is is is. Pure illusion, you know, because we tend to spend so much of our time in, you know,

• 1:01:59Rich Roll?

  sort of recycling the past or projecting outcomes into the future, which don't exist, which very often, you know, are based on our fears. And so to be able to kind of walk through that and understand, you know, the difference between illusion and reality and to understand that that fear is just an emotion and it need not control how you react or behave in light of it, I think is really powerful. And, you know, I had a guy on the podcast a while back named James Altucher, and he's a very popular blogger. You should check out his blog. He writes these amazing posts that are really cool. But he said that he never hits publish on anything, on any post that he writes unless

• 1:02:41Rich Roll?

  he's absolutely terrified about, you know, what people are going to think, you know, because he's so vulnerable, like he gives so much of himself into what he's writing that it's a scary prospect. And unless he feels that fear, if he doesn't feel it, then he knows he hasn't written it as well as he could, you know? And so sometimes the point being that, you know, that fear impulse can be kind of a reservoir for also, you know, understanding that it's a good thing and you can be on the right path with it.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I love that. That's great to, he won't press publish unless you're terrified of what people will think. That's a good one.

• 1:03:22Rich Roll?

  Right. So when you're making, when you're uploading your next video, you know, if you're scared, like what are people going to think? Well, you know, part of that's good. It's sort of like if I'm up on the starting blocks for a swimming race or you're about to, you know, jump into Mavericks, you're going to be scared, right? You're afraid. And part of that is just excitement and that excitement, you know, is a close companion to all the preparation that it took to get there.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Right. My stepdad says it's okay to have butterflies, just make sure they fly in formation.

• 1:03:49Rich Roll?

  Oh, I like that. Yeah, that's cool.

• 1:04:04Rich Roll?

  The other interesting thing that I kind of wanted to raise was this idea of, you know, it's very popular right now to kind of bash on the millennial generation. I don't even like that term to begin with millennials or, you know, like generation wuss and everybody has their face just, you know, in their iPad and they're all self-involved and what are we going to do with this new generation? And part of that is just cyclical, like, you know, I suppose those kinds of ideas come up with every new generation and now that I'm older, you know, I hear a lot more of that. And my experience has been quite different, you know? Because of what I do, I have the good fortune to meet a lot of young, enterprising people. And my experience is that I've never met a group of people who are more interested

• 1:04:47Rich Roll?

  in the long-term, sustainable health of the planet and, you know, who are interested in permaculture and the environment and who are empowered to make change and who are optimistic about the future. And that's something that my generation in particular, I mean, when I was 24, when I was in college, you know, there was nobody studying permaculture and there was nobody who was interested in organic farming. And this is a huge paradigm shift that I'm seeing in, you know, people in their 20s like yourself.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that it's really important as, as so many of the big issues of the world are so seemingly audacious, I think it's really important to keep score, as you are keeping score on a lot of these issues, you know, and that we are moving in the right direction overall. And that I think that now more than ever, what's unique is that things can change at a more rapid pace than any time before. I mean, largely due to the internet, you know, if you have an idea that's juicy enough, it can literally reach billions of people, which is unprecedented in that sense. And that there are more people who have the opportunity to have microphones than ever

• 1:06:02Speaker 01

  before. It used to be that you had to, you know, get on Fox News or in Life Magazine to get a, get an idea out, whereas now it's just like, you gotta make a juicy YouTube video or write a cool blog that people want to listen to and you can actually... Affect the hearts and minds of a lot of people if you do it right.

• 1:06:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's incredibly empowering, you know, it's that if the message is good, there's a way to get it out there. And I think for young people to really intuit that and to really understand that gives them a sense of, you know, self determination that maybe didn't exist in prior generations. It's amazing.

• 1:06:44Rich Roll?

  So you are good. And yeah, I want to hear a little bit about what it's like when, because I know you've been on this college tour. You've been speaking quite a bit at all these colleges and what that experience has been like and kind of what you're, what you're, you know, what you're hearing from young people across the country that you're connecting with.

• 1:07:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a great question. I think that the interest is huge. When I go out and give, give speeches, a lot of people have been showing up and a lot of people ask questions at the end. So that's very, very hopeful.

• 1:07:22Rich Roll?

  What's the crux of the speech that you give?

• 1:07:25Speaker 01

  A lot of just what we've been talking about, you know, my own stories and then the power to, to influence change through everyday decisions as well as the power to, to combine activism with your passion. And really it's, it's, I would say it's a big theme of it. It's just about rebranding what it means to be an activist. And a lot, a lot of my belief is that when you use your passion on behalf of something bigger than you can actually be a more effective world changer than if you were to do something that you didn't really like to do, but thought it was good for the world.

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  So well, I would say that that is definitely a theme that kids are really interested in hearing that message. I would say that kids are also really interested in hearing about the solutions rather than the problems. I think that kids, I mean, students my age know that there are big problems in the world. You don't need, you don't need to drum into them that there are big problems in the world. It's like everyone, you know, everyone knows someone who has cancer, right? Like, and there, everyone knows that there are all these huge problems. So I think that the message that, that people my age really need to hear are that there are solutions happening

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  and that there are bright spots in the world where, you know, people are, are adopting these great solutions. Um, cause I think that that's what makes, makes people like, oh, wow, I can, I could do something. Or I could apply that to my own life in this way. So that's where I, I tend to get the most, most claps, um, is when I start to talk about that kind of stuff.

• 1:09:11Rich Roll?

  Focusing on the solution.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  Focusing on the solution and really, and focusing on solution through storytelling. I mean, that's what my, that's what I do, you know? In, in the talks, I talk about other kids that are doing really rad stuff. Um, and I can tell that, that the auditorium lights up when they, when they know that there are other people their age doing this kind of stuff.

• 1:09:34Rich Roll?

  Right, that's encouraging to, to provide all these examples of other people doing it makes it, it's, it's sort of inherently giving them permission to do it themselves and showing them that it can be done.

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, um, so that's really great. I, I would say that a, a big, uh, kind of issue for sure is student debt. And that, um, I mean, you, you gotta pay the bills, right? So, so as much as we all want to, to go out and change the world, like, you still gotta keep the lights on. So I, I would say that that is the biggest. Thing that we need to, that you need to figure out, right? Because like, you, you wanna be able to make money and, and, and have a, talk about sustainability, like you wanna have a sustainable life and lifestyle. So figuring out how to do good work in the world and make money, I think is a really big

• 1:10:28Speaker 01

  question that my generation is, is trying to figure out.

• 1:10:34Speaker 01

  So that's, but that's something that really everyone needs to kind of figure out for themselves, you know, and how can you have these two verticals at the same time where you're growing, you know, a business, you're growing a career where you're making money? And also you are doing it in a way where you're, you're helping the world in a, a local or globe, on a local or global scale, whatever it is that, that you're most interested in. Just figuring out that how to, how to kind of tandem those two verticals, I think is a really important, uh, thing that my generation is figuring out.

• 1:11:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think they are, I think they, we, we, you know, are all figuring it out. And you see this sort of, the ascension of, of conscious capitalism all around. I mean, whether it's Warby Parker, or Tom Shoes, or all of these companies that really are realizing that the key to growth and success economically is to tie in service into the core sort of values and principles of the company, you know, from the inception of it, right? So that part of the, part of the entire equation and principle behind the, the business itself is the service and is the giving back. And I think that that's really a crucial aspect for, um, the success of, you know, any new companies that are coming up.

• 1:11:49Rich Roll?

  And, and to see these companies thriving, who are giving away at the same time, and to understand that they're thriving, not despite that, but as a result of that kind of corporate ethos is a pretty cool thing.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, my main sponsor is Patagonia, so it's really cool to have been able to see that firsthand, um, you know, and I was talking to Yvon Chouinard, the, the founder of Patagonia one time, and he was- Tell him about how at one point they were growing at such a rapid scale, he felt like he was needing to sacrifice like some of the environmental and social beliefs that he really, that the inception of the company was based off of. And he made a really conscious decision to slow down that growth at one point so that they could kind of reflect on where they're at, where they want to go. And Patagonia just did a

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  it was a hundred year plan for where the company wants to be in a hundred years. I think that that kind of thinking is what we really need because so often the biggest companies in the world are operating off of quarterly statements. So it's really difficult to have that kind of long-term vision about what kind of player they want to be in the world in something like a hundred years.

• 1:13:09Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, what they've done at Patagonia is amazing. I mean, that guy is incredible. So you're, you're, I know, I was like, you, you, you must be stoked to have them as a sponsor. So is it, do you have one of those situations where you have the ability to travel? Like, oh, here's where the waves are. And also here's where there's an issue that I could document. And, and you have the sponsor support to be able to go there and to, you know, create a film and, and put it out. I mean, is so that, you know, you're sort of, you have these corporate partners that are really, you know, allowing you to be able to do this.

• 1:13:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I, I, um, how it works for me financially is that I basically piece it together, you know, Patagonia will contribute something to a video, Cliff Bar will contribute something, my skateboard sponsor Sector 9 will contribute something. And then if I still need more, because, because it is more than just paying for myself to go. It's like, I also need to pay for a videographer and pay for an editor and all that kind of stuff. So, um, like with this, with the GMO video, I wrote a grant to the Newman Foundation and they helped kind of wrap up the funding that we needed to, to make that happen. But yeah, it's all, it's all kind of project by project based, you know,

• 1:14:29Speaker 01

  if, if it's something that, obviously like something like GMOs is something that my sponsors were really interested to, to help get that story out there. Um, but yeah, I just piece, piecing it together, man. That's what I've, that's what I've been doing.

• 1:14:44Rich Roll?

  Alright man, well what's uh, what's next? What's the next video?

• 1:14:48Speaker 01

  Um, next video, um, so we are, I- I'm talking with a few different television networks, um, about having there be a kind of Surfing for Change-esque show. Um, so I- I can't say that anything is gonna happen for sure, but that's kind of where I'm, I'm putting my- my emphasis right now because, um, my- I mean, my goal over the next two years is to just really grow the- the amount of people seeing the stories that we create. And it's- it's difficult to do it just kinda on my own. So, my goal really is to kind of create a team or become a part of a team that- that has that

• 1:15:34Speaker 01

  media power to really get a message out to hundreds of millions of people. That's kind of my ultimate goal. So, I- I'm putting emphasis there. Um, over the next couple of months, I'm going on just some- some straight surf- surf trips. Like, I just got to do a, um, a trip for Surfer Magazine a couple we- or Surfing Magazine, uh, a couple of weeks ago, and then I'm actually taking off tomorrow to go down to Latin America again for another trip. So, I'm gonna do a couple- a couple of trips where I'm just able to focus on my surfing and- and do that kinda thing, and then dive into- to a new project when it happens. But I would love to come back on the show and we get our, uh, a new video out there.

• 1:16:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, absolutely, man. Uh, doors wide open, anytime. Um, so, cool. So, that's a great place to- to wrap it up, man. I appreciate, uh, you giving me your time today.

• 1:16:26Speaker 01

  Awesome. And, uh, for anyone listening, go to Surfingforchange.com to check out all of our short, digestible documentaries.

• 1:16:33Rich Roll?

  That's right. And it's, uh, YouTube- the YouTube channel is just under your name, right? Is there- or is there a Surfing for Change YouTube channel, or?

• 1:16:40Speaker 01

  Uh, you just- just, uh, just type in Surfing for Change on YouTube and all of our videos will come up.

• 1:16:46Rich Roll?

  Right, and you're surf, you're at Surfing for Change on Twitter and same thing on Instagram.

• 1:16:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, Surfing number four change on Twitter and Instagram.

• 1:16:54Rich Roll?

  Okay, gotcha. But for, but Surfing F O R change.com for the website.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, and our, and on Facebook.

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  Right, got you. And it's cool, everybody should go check out the site. You can see the short documentary about GMOs right up front, and then there's all these action steps if you want to get involved and learn more. From signing petitions to other kind of organizations that are involved in this, in this issue that you can learn more about. So I encourage everybody to check that out. Alright?

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Alright, well, thanks for the good conversation, that was really fun.

• 1:17:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, man, thanks so much for doing it, I appreciate it, and let's talk soon, dude.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Alright, thanks, Red.

• 1:17:34Rich Roll?

  Alright, Kyle, thanks, peace. Plants.

• 1:17:42Rich Roll?

  Alright, everybody, I hope you enjoyed that, thanks for tuning in. Definitely go to Surfingforchange.com and check out everything that Kyle is doing on that site. Check out the YouTube series, some great content there, and ways to participate and get involved in the issues that he brings to you. Specifically GMOs, but even, it goes far beyond that as well. So, can't encourage you enough to go check that out. Couple announcements before we wrap it up, we got an app coming soon, a mobile app for iOS, for your iPhone type device. We still have a couple hoops we gotta jump through, we gotta get it through the whole Apple system, and we're still dialing in some tweaks.

• 1:18:23Rich Roll?

  But I'm pretty excited about that, and it's gonna give everybody a great new way to enjoy the content and share it. We're gonna have the full entire catalog, all the way back to episode one, available. As you know, on iTunes, they only offer the most recent 50, so this is gonna be a great way to be able to enjoy, at least for the early adopters, until later versions where we're gonna offer premium stuff. For a limited time, we're gonna have the entire catalog up there for free, that, the app obviously is gonna be for free. So, excited about that, and I'll keep you posted on developments as we get closer to the release. Support the show. Best way to do that is always to tell a friend. Just spread the word. That's all I ask. But if you want to take it one step further, we have a banner

• 1:19:06Rich Roll?

  ad at richroll.com for Amazon. Click that banner ad or bookmark it in your browser. That way, when you're going to buy something on Amazon, you click through through our site first. Take you an extra two seconds. Buy whatever you're going to buy on Amazon, like the paperback copy of Finding Ultra, or the audiobook, in case you haven't checked out my book yet. And Amazon will not charge you one cent extra, but they kick us some loose change and it helps us pay the bills. It helps me keep Tyler happy for producing the show, my son, who does all the music and all the production. Give him a shout out in the comments, by the way. He's doing a great job. And that's it. So that's really

• 1:19:49Rich Roll?

  helping keep this boat afloat, and we really appreciate all the support. You can donate to the show as well. You can do a one-time donation, or you can subscribe on a weekly or monthly basis, any fee, any amount you wish. This show will always be free, but we really appreciate those people that that want to support us by giving a little extra. That means a lot. You don't have to. You're not obligated. But for those of you that have, that is really amazing, and we appreciate it. We also now offer, you can donate in Bitcoin. So that's pretty cool, too. We're getting really modern with that stuff. The other way you can do it is leave a review on iTunes. We love that. And also, I love

• 1:20:30Rich Roll?

  it when people share the show on Instagram, showing a picture of them, you know, out exercising, listening to the show, or commuting, or making a smoothie, or all that kind of stuff. A bunch of you guys did this, this, did that this past week, and that was really awesome. So keep it up. I really love that kind of stuff. That's it. I have a new course coming out on Mind Body Green pretty soon. I'll keep you posted on that. In the meantime, I still have my Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition course, which is available on Mind Body Green. If you want to learn more about how to get more plant-based in your life, three and a half hours of online streaming video content, check it out. And of course, go to richroll.com for all your plant power provisions. We got t-shirts, we got beanies,

• 1:21:12Rich Roll?

  we got trucker hats, we have nutritional products, we have signed copies of Finding Ultra, we have our digital e-cookbook, Jai Seed, we have our meditation program. And we are developing lots more cool stuff for you guys. We're locking in the design on the cycling kit, which is looking amazing. And it's going to take a while to produce that, but that is going to be super cool. So look forward to more information about that. So that's it, you guys. I'm getting ready to hit the road in a day. Julie and I are leaving for Canada. We're going to be there for, I think, like seven days. And then Julie's going to come home and I'm going to head to the Middle East for two weeks. I'm going to be in Beirut, Lebanon, and I'm going to be in three cities throughout

• 1:21:57Rich Roll?

  Saudi Arabia doing appearances. And I can't tell you how excited I am about that, to be able to spread the healthy plant powered message to that part of the world, which is pretty cool. So I'll look forward to talking to you guys from there. Don't worry, I'll be posting podcasts, you know, once a week as the usual. That will not get interrupted. And hopefully I'll collect a few interesting stories from the road that I can share and impart with you guys. So until then, have a great week. Do something that scares you. Live wide, love deep, and figure out how you can be of better service, not just to yourself, but to your fellow man. And I'll catch you next week. Thanks, you guys. Appreciate you tuning in. Peace. Plants.