Light Watkins: Doing The Work Is The Shortcut

How do you find purpose? What does it mean to live with intention? And why is it important to cultivate stillness? These questions are important. The answers are tricky. To solve these riddles to the human dilemma, you have to know where to look. Knowing Where To Look also happens to be the title of Light Watkins’ new book. Is it a sign or coincidence? The answer is up to you. In addition to being a good friend, a beautiful incarnation of the human form, a nomadic minimalist, and expert meditation and spiritual teacher, Light is also a prolific public speaker and the founder of The Shine (a groovy TED meets Self-Realization love child event series) and the author of three books: The Inner Gym, Bliss More, and of course, his latest work and the focus of our gathering, Knowing Where To Look. My third microphone communion with Light begins with a dive into his adventures in minimalism (every single thing he owns fits into a single carry-on bag) and what it’s like being a 50-year old ex-pat nomad living in Mexico City. We also touch on his experiences in meditation and mindfulness, and the impact of his activism on issues related to racial injustice. But mainly we focus on things like the power of kindness, the importance of patience and reflection, how to cultivate intuition, and how to have the courage to trust it. In a nutshell, this conversation is about how to put faith into action, and why the aspirational life is built upon a foundation of small gestures—tiny actions undertaken every day, every hour, every moment. If you’re new to the force of love that is Light Watkins, I suggest tuning up our earlier conversations, RRP #172 and RRP #357. Check him out in my book Voicing Change, which you can find here. Listen to his podcast At the End of The Tunnel and of course, pick up his new book, the choose-your-own-adventure style of daily inspiration that is Knowing Where To Look. FULL BLOG & SHOW NOTES: bit.ly/richroll603 YouTube: bit.ly/lightwatkins603 Light Watkins is one of my most favorite beings. My hope is that this conversation helps you find what you’re looking for. Light Watkins is one of my most favorite beings. May this conversation be a tuning fork for your gaze—and lead you closer towards what you’re looking for. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Light Watkins?

  The true wealth is the fulfillment inside, right? This is a living experiment. And it's not that I'm like walking around beaming all the time because I feel fulfilled inside. That's not really what we're talking about. It's just, it's having this inner security that wherever you are is where you're supposed to be. And if that means you get challenged in certain ways, then that challenge is there for you to learn something new about yourself. And that new thing that you learn is going to add to the feeling tone of fulfillment, right? And so, that's the underlying message of this whole path, is your path is not leading you to more success or more comfort. It's leading you to know yourself better, and ultimately, to feel your connection with other people.

• 1:49Light Watkins?

  And that could be a very, very treacherous path at some points. It could be incredibly uncomfortable at other points. But the happiness that people tend to look for outside in success is much more temporal compared to what you can feel inside while you're going through all of those other moments and obstacles in life. I'm Light Watkins, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:27Rich Roll?

  How do you find purpose? What does it mean to live with intention? And why is it so important to cultivate stillness? These questions are important. The answers, of course, are tricky. They're elusive. And really, only can be found by knowing where to look. Knowing where to look. Well, that also happens to be the title of Light Watkins' new book, dropping in today for his third appearance on this show, a podcast which bears my name, which I, out of pure coincidence, happen to host. If you're new to me or to Light, welcome. And allow me to add that Light, in addition to being a good friend, a beautiful incarnation

• 3:11Rich Roll?

  of the human form, a nomadic minimalist, is and has been for the last 20 years, a lauded meditation and spiritual teacher. Just don't call him guru. He hates that. It's teacher. He's also a prolific public speaker, the founder of The Shine, which is this groovy event series that's sort of like TED meets self-realization, and the author of three books, The Inner Gym, Bliss More, and of course, his latest, the focus of today's powwow, Knowing Where to Look. We had a great talk about things I think are important, things that matter, and it's coming right up. But first.

• 3:56Rich Roll?

  Okay, Light Watkins. Today, we talk about his adventures in minimalism. Everything this guy owns fits into a carry-on bag. What it's like to be a 50-year-old nomad, and how his experiences in meditation and mindfulness impact his activism on issues related to racial injustice. But mainly, we focus on things like the power of kindness, the importance of patience and reflection. How to cultivate intuition and the courage to trust it, to put faith into action, and why the life you seek, the life you aspire to have, really boils down to small gestures, tiny actions. If you enjoy Light, please allow me to make

• 4:41Rich Roll?

  a few suggestions. Check out our earlier conversations, Episodes 172 and 357. He's also profiled in my book, Voicing Change, which you can find at richroll.com. Check out Light's podcast. It's called At the End of the Tunnel. And of course, make a point of picking up Light's new book, Knowing Where to Look. As for knowing where to listen, you're in the right place because it's time to do the thing. So please enjoy what I think is a wonderful exchange with my friend, Light Watkins.

• 5:15Rich Roll?

  Good to see you, my friend. It's been a while.

• 5:17Light Watkins?

  I know.

• 5:18Rich Roll?

  I can't remember the last time we crossed paths, maybe a couple of years?

• 5:23Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I think I saw you actually on your birthday at Cafe Gratitude.

• 5:27Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 5:28Light Watkins?

  When you turned 50, I believe.

• 5:31Rich Roll?

  50?

• 5:31Light Watkins?

  How old are you now?

• 5:32Rich Roll?

  Dude, I'm almost 55. Couldn't have been that long ago.

• 5:36Light Watkins?

  You turned 53 or something like that.

• 5:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that. I remember that.

• 5:39Light Watkins?

  Pre-pandemic Cafe Gratitude. You were wearing all black, a bunch of beads, hair was longer, no beard.

• 5:47Rich Roll?

  Lot more hair.

• 5:48Light Watkins?

  That helps to narrow down the time around when it was. You're with Julie and I think it was just you and her.

• 5:54Rich Roll?

  I think it was just, or maybe the kids.

• 5:56Light Watkins?

  Maybe one of the kids or I don't remember.

• 5:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, pre-pandemic though.

• 6:01Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 6:02Rich Roll?

  You've had an interesting.

• 6:03Light Watkins?

  I was already like on the road at that time.

• 6:05Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 6:05Light Watkins?

  I happened to be back in LA just randomly.

• 6:08Rich Roll?

  Right. So you've spent the last year, well, initially you were in Atlanta, right? Before going to Mexico City?

• 6:15Light Watkins?

  Yes.

• 6:15Rich Roll?

  Did you go back and forth?

• 6:16Light Watkins?

  I started off the pandemic in Atlanta, then LA, and then back to Atlanta, and then back to LA, and then Mexico City. So I was actually in each of those places for like about four or five months.

• 6:30Rich Roll?

  There was a little bit of a LA exodus to Mexico City.

• 6:34Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 6:34Rich Roll?

  I have like three or four friends who kind of have been riding out the pandemic down there.

• 6:39Light Watkins?

  Yeah, it's a great place to ride it out.

• 6:41Rich Roll?

  How did you decide on Mexico City?

• 6:44Light Watkins?

  I'd been hearing about it for years and then when I went nomadic in 2018, I started going to Mexico City here and there for a couple of weeks, three weeks. And it's like, it's kind of like being in Europe without going to Europe because you're still in central time zone in the US. And it's just beautiful, you know, it's just everything, it's green, it's very walkable. The food scene, the cafe scene is amazing, the service is impeccable, like everything is great. And the dollar goes along with it.

• 7:14Rich Roll?

  Right, it's affordable.

• 7:15Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 7:15Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm fascinated by this nomadic lifestyle that you've been pursuing. I suppose, I guess this is part, it was kicked off by kind of the third purge that you've done. Because this is not the first time that you've explored this. And there's a part of me that's jealous, like what it would feel like to just be that free, to live out of literally, you know, a carry-on and be that kind of malleable and mobile.

• 7:45Light Watkins?

  Well, it's interesting because, you know, I'm in a, normally when you hear that sort of story, you probably imagine someone in their twenties, you know, or maybe in their early thirties at the latest.

• 7:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 7:56Light Watkins?

  Meanwhile, I'm about to be fifties. So it's a little different in that, in this life stage because people, my peers are all like, they're really establishing serious roots. Some of them are even grandparents at this point, or kids out of college. And so there's not a lot of people who I grew up with who can really relate to what I'm doing. So you really have to be, you know, sure of yourself.

• 8:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 8:24Light Watkins?

  And into the idea of it. And that's, I've kind of been that way my whole life, so I don't really know any different. But yeah, it's been an interesting journey. And I tell people who are intrigued by it, I was like, look, you know, I'm not, my example is not to go and sell off all your stuff and, you know, jump on an airplane overnight. Like it took years of experimenting to get to this point. And so for me, it just kind of felt like a natural extension of what I was already kind of doing. I mean, I was already, prior to 2018, I was traveling. I was going to London every month or so, I was going to New York all the time. So I started challenging myself to see if I could.

• 9:09Light Watkins?

  Live off of whatever I could fit into my carry-on bag for those two weeks or three weeks I was gonna be on the road. And then, and then after doing that for a couple of years, then it was like, okay, well, I know I can do it.

• 9:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 9:20Light Watkins?

  You know, I practiced it enough. Let me go ahead and sell all this other stuff and just commit to it.

• 9:25Rich Roll?

  But there's a difference between knowing you can do it and reckoning with whether it's the right thing to do. I suspect you must come up against moments of loneliness or self-doubt with this.

• 9:38Light Watkins?

  Hundred percent. I mean, you know, you spend a lot of time on your own, but then that's where the meditation and all the inner work kinda kicks in. You know, I've been doing that for 20 years. And I try to tell people, you know, help people understand that that's been a part of my journey as well. And one of the primary benefits of all that daily meditation is you've, you become more self-aware. You become more comfortable with your own company. You enjoy silence and, you know, and I can be as... You have to also be relatively outgoing if you wanna, if you wanna find a social life

• 10:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 10:13Light Watkins?

  in these different places. So, I mean, you know, I can kinda dip in as much as I want to. And I'm, I consider myself to be more of a introverted extrovert. Like, I can do the extroverted thing here and there if I want to, but I'm very comfortable with my own company as well. So, and I'm, I'm busy, you know, I'm writing books.

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:33Light Watkins?

  I've got a podcast and I'm teaching meditation trainings and organizing retreats. So, it's like, I almost spend a lot of time... It's kinda like when you and I first met at that hotel, the Ace Hotel in the Flatiron District in New York. You were, this was midnight. I was there doing some work and you were there doing work.

• 10:51Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 10:52Light Watkins?

  You know, and I was on the road teaching, but, but after hours, I was like, writing my, my book or I would think I was marketing my first book, The Inner Gym.

• 11:02Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:03Light Watkins?

  And you were there editing of episodes.

• 11:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think I was getting a podcast up or something like that. I was in search of internet.

• 11:11Light Watkins?

  And that's kind of my life is, you know, I'm so passionate about the things that I do that I just kind of busy myself very easily. And we've had conversations about that, like there's no such thing as work-life balance when you're really passionate about what you do.

• 11:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's so deeply integrated. Well, there's a difference between getting rid of all your stuff and going on some kind of walkabout versus living your life intentionally, being clear on what it is that you're doing, what you're seeking and being purposeful in, you know, how you kind of approach that very different type of lifestyle.

• 11:46Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and I consider myself to be one of the lucky ones to have kind of centered in on a mission that I'm very, very excited about. Like, I literally wake up in the morning and I can't wait to get to work and thinking about ideas and spitballing and on my own when I'm just walking around. And so every spare moment is really an opportunity to kind of tweak and refine. And then you add social media to it, right? And then it's like, okay, well, I would love to put some kind of messaging out there to, you know, when I get this, I have this quote in my head, it's like, I gotta tweak the quote and then I gotta turn it into a quote card on Instagram and then an audiogram. You know, it's like, that's like hours and hours of work.

• 12:24Rich Roll?

  Are you doing all that yourself?

• 12:25Light Watkins?

  I'm doing all that myself.

• 12:26Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 12:27Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I do it all myself. I mean, the idea is not to continue doing it all myself all the time, but it's kind of how I iterate, like I have to get my hands dirty, I have to roll up my sleeves and see how things work. And I'll get so many more ideas of how to communicate more efficiently and optimize the process just for myself, from just doing it myself. And then eventually I can explain it simply to someone to help me.

• 12:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 12:55Light Watkins?

  And that's kind of how that works.

• 12:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, through the doing, you, you know, see the path, you know, the path is revealed ahead of you, which is a big kind of message in the book.

• 13:04Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and it's all storytelling, right? And that's really what people connect with the most is whether it's an Instagram caption or a tweet or a daily dose of inspiration email that I send out, it's all stories. And it helps every time I sit down and especially when you have limitations, like I was telling a friend of mine. He said, "Your daily doses, you know, these emails that you send out every day, they've gotten shorter and shorter." And I said, "Well, yeah, because now I want people to be able to like screenshot them and share them a lot easier." So I intentionally keep them within 100 or 125 words, if possible. Sometimes it's not possible.

• 13:47Light Watkins?

  But I also followed up with, "It's harder to write a short email than it is to just let my, you know, thoughts rip and just not edit it as much." So it actually takes longer to truncate it and keep it succinct and also to put it through all the screens that you're very familiar with, you know? Because it's like you put out some really heartfelt, vulnerable post about your journey and then you get the one like person commenting about how you didn't include their little situation or overlooked. And it's like, "No, he probably thought about that." I'm sure he thought about it five levels deeper than anyone who's commenting on his

• 14:27Light Watkins?

  post, but you can't accommodate for every little exceptional situation.

• 14:33Rich Roll?

  Of course not. Yeah. Brevity is not my strength, though. You know, the economy of your lifestyle in some part perhaps fuels your economy of language, you know? Everything is being kind of, it's like the path gets narrower. And when you, you know, read the words of the sages and the Buddhas, it's always very short. Like, there's a clarity in that that comes through decades of wisdom acquired through experience.

• 14:59Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I mean, that's one of my mantras is if you can't, it's the Einstein quote, "If you can't explain it simply, then you don't know it well enough."

• 15:06Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:07Light Watkins?

  And so, and that's why I've really come to embrace reminders because, and reading things over, the same things over and over and over, because you just, you see them differently each time and then you're understanding them at a deeper level. And then it gets distilled down to its essence. And that's really where, where it's, it becomes, you know, almost magical in that, in its application and utility.

• 15:32Rich Roll?

  I feel like, Light, that you're taking advantage of these very powerful tools that are available to us that allow us to uncouple geographic location from vocation.

• 15:48Rich Roll?

  In past decades, to kind of, you know, live the minimalist lifestyle and be a nomad would be, you know, akin to Kung Fu, you know, kind of wandering into towns. And there is an asceticism that's built into it, but you're still able to do all the things that you would be doing if you owned a home with a picket fence and had, you know, a car in the driveway.

• 16:10Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and in a way, I do still have those things. I just don't own them myself, I'm just using other people's.

• 16:16Rich Roll?

  Right. So where are you staying now?

• 16:18Light Watkins?

  I'm staying in Mexico City. I just have an Airbnb. It's like a beautiful two-bedroom, just like I had a two-bedroom in LA. So I think people have this idea that I like to, I'm drawn to tiny houses and it's like, no, I actually like space and I like things. I just don't need to own them myself.

• 16:36Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 16:37Light Watkins?

  And unfortunately, you don't need a car in Mexico City. And I'm just, I don't even know how long I'll be there, but everywhere I go, when I'm in London, I'll rent an Airbnb somewhere, or, you know, New York, what have you. And I kind of prefer places where you don't need to be driving so much. But in Los Angeles, I'd stay with a buddy of mine who's got a beautiful place and I rent a car and so, you know, I make it work.

• 17:05Rich Roll?

  You're able to be in the modern world.

• 17:07Light Watkins?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, very much.

• 17:08Rich Roll?

  You're not adorned in robes, walking barefoot down Abiquino.

• 17:12Light Watkins?

  And also, you know, I'm on, I'm on stage and I'm speaking. You know, so it's like, I can't look like I'm living out of a backpack. I want it to look like you don't even know that I'm living out of a backpack. That's just, that's something that's happening in the background. And, but yeah, you're right. I mean, it does help me practice brevity in all areas of life, because you just, you have to, you know. And people always want to like, give me things, which I think is very, very sweet, and I have to remind them. I said, "Look..." It's nice that you want to give me this little token, or this little thing, a book, or whatever, but it's like I really don't have any room for.

• 17:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 17:49Light Watkins?

  You can imagine how many people give you this little thing, and it adds up.

• 17:53Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 17:54Light Watkins?

  So, yeah, I have to...

• 17:55Rich Roll?

  But it's not personal if you have this general rule.

• 17:58Light Watkins?

  No, it's not.

• 17:59Rich Roll?

  But I imagine it must have been hard, you've talked about this a little bit, when it came to, okay, I'm gonna do this thing again, I'm gonna shed, and you're getting rid of like all your journals, and all these kind of very personable memorabilia that were kind of hardwired to collect. There must be a sense that, you know, once you've done that, like a feeling of lightness. But do you ever think like, I wish I hadn't, like, those are things that when I'm old, I'd like to look at, that maybe could have provided the foundation for the next book? Or are they all scanned in the clouds, so you still have them?

• 18:36Light Watkins?

  I scan everything in the clouds. I scan every page of every journal, so I have everything. And that's what's great about modern technology, is that we can do that. And, you know, and in a way, it's even more accessible now, because now I can categorize it, I can label it all, and it's all in my file storage application, so I can just go to it in a couple minutes. And I've actually looked at those things a lot more than I ever did when it was just collecting dust in the back of my closet.

• 19:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's interesting.

• 19:06Light Watkins?

  So, you know, I think that's something that people should do anyway, is scan all of their stuff in, so that they can at least access it whenever

• 19:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 19:14Light Watkins?

  they're with somebody from their past, and they're like, oh wow, you know, I have these photos of us from like 20 years ago. And you don't have to go and dig for it, and wonder where it is, and which box you put it in, and this kind of thing. So that became... And also, I kind of worked the logic on it. And I said, look, when someone... Writes a memoir or when someone or when someone dies.

• 19:39Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 19:40Light Watkins?

  Right. So even someone prolific like a Steve Jobs, right? The guy who created the iPhone, when he dies, how many photos of Steve Jobs have we seen floating around out there? Probably a dozen, right? Maybe, maybe a couple more than that, but you could imagine he probably had a kajillion photos somewhere, but we only see like a dozen and you can apply that to really anybody. Right? So the point is, if this stuff is going to become used at some point later, you don't need that many.

• 20:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 20:16Light Watkins?

  You know, you don't need your whole catalog of, because no one's apparently, no one's gonna sift through all of that stuff.

• 20:22Rich Roll?

  But, but if you have kids, then you just start hoarding like crazy, crazy numbers of photos.

• 20:27Light Watkins?

  Yeah, or you just, but if you have kids, you know, in 20, 30 years from now, and they wanna, they wanna see old pictures and it's all categorized and they have the passwords and everything to your files, then they can see everything a lot more efficiently than like digging through and wondering, what is this? Where is this from? You know, so it's kind of a way to, to organize it a little bit better.

• 20:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, even though we haven't seen each other in a while, I've been paying attention to kind of everything that you've been doing over the last year, when the pandemic hit and there was this social permission for everybody to just kind of stop and stay at home and, and do nothing and not feel guilty about it. I feel like you've been incredibly productive and in many ways, really found your voice like in a new gear with all the stuff that you started putting out, those videos on Instagram, which were, are, continue to be like so well thought out. And every time I look at them, I'm like, is he reading off a script? Is he just, is he just spontaneously like delivering these incredible monologues that

• 21:32Rich Roll?

  are so clear and, and concise in their point of view and, and thinking?

• 21:37Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I've been pretty open about the fact that those were all written out and rehearsed and, um, you know, again, I wanted to keep them within like a minute, maybe a couple of minutes at the most, but really it was just to value people's time, because I know that when I just speak off the top of my head, I have a tendency to. Drag on and on and on. And I wanted to be as concise and as clear as possible. And so my process was, I would, you know, what you're referring to is I made a vow to myself when I was in Mexico City in February 14th, 2020, right at the very beginning, I made a vow to myself to post a video a day on Instagram.

• 22:22Light Watkins?

  And the reason was because I wanted to practice speaking on camera. And I'd been already writing my daily dose of inspiration emails and sending those out for four years. So I had already been used to generating inspirational content, because that's what happens when you do something every day.

• 22:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:43Light Watkins?

  Is you start to, it starts coming through you. And so now I was just kind of applying it to video form. But I didn't want to, sometimes I would borrow ideas of things I'd already written. Sometimes it would just be things that came through me and I would speak on that. And so it wasn't really about, you know, anything more than just practicing. And then come April, May, when the George Floyd thing happened, it was literally just another day. And I thought to myself, okay, what am I going to speak on today? I'm literally sitting on my couch in my Airbnb in Atlanta. And I wanted to go to the park and go for a run, but I hadn't shot my video yet.

• 23:28Light Watkins?

  And it usually is like an hour and a half, maybe two hour long process, depending on how clear my thoughts are. And I was doing everything myself. I had learned how to caption, how to put headlines, how to do all, it takes like, the process was like three or four apps before you post it. And I thought, you know, this thing that happened to George Floyd, people probably exclude me from that category of person. Like, obviously, I'm a black person, but a lot of my, my non-black friends, I think, see me in a different way than they would look at someone like George Floyd. And I said, this is a great opportunity to communicate that actually, the things that happened to him have also happened to me,

• 24:12Light Watkins?

  maybe not as extreme at this point in time. But it could go in that direction if I'm in the wrong place, at the wrong time, with the wrong cop and all of that. And so I spoke to that, you know, because I'm from Alabama and a part of being from Alabama, which is the, which was the staging point of the modern civil rights movement, you know, that's a part of the ongoing conversation in all black families is, black people, white people, this happened to us and this is what we have to do and you have to work harder and all these kinds of things. So I just talked about a few instances where I had been racially profiled in my life, all the way up until, most recently, you know, when I was, when I was marketing my last book,

• 24:52Light Watkins?

  Bliss More, the meditation book, I'd been pulled over by a cop in LA because the cop had received a call that I was looking to break into someone's car. Uh huh. And I'm going to a book interview, to a podcast. Oh my god. But some person saw me and I was looking for my friend's parking space. She said, "You can park your scooter behind my car." So there are all these numbered parking spaces and I'm like, "I can't find the parking space." And so somebody thought I was like... Like casing the cars. Casing the whole parking lot to find out whose car I was gonna break into. I'm on a scooter meanwhile, like, I don't know where I'm gonna, what I'm gonna carry. But you're a scary black man. But I'm a scary black man.

• 25:37Light Watkins?

  I had a suit coat on and everything. So anyway, those kinds of things have been happening and it's almost, up until that point, it was unremarkable. Like, you know, who am I gonna complain about it to or that's gonna really care or is not gonna say, "Oh, you know, that was just coincidence." But it happens all the time, not all the time, but it happens often enough that to my black friends, like, "Oh yeah, of course." You know, to my white friends, it's like, "Well, you know, okay." And so I talked about those instances, starting when I was like seven or eight years old, all the way up until that point. And that video, you know, normally I'll post a video, get maybe a few thousand views. That video got 3.5 million views.

• 26:20Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I was like, wow.

• 26:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:21Light Watkins?

  I guess people want to hear more about this.

• 26:23Rich Roll?

  Well, I remember seeing that video and then watching your daily videos and just getting this sense that you, because you are this guy who, you're the meditation mindfulness guy.

• 26:34Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 26:34Rich Roll?

  And, and you really exist predominantly in kind of this, this white wellness culture. You know, that's where you've made your mark and what you're known for. But in the wake of George Floyd, you really stepped up and met the moment in a meaningful way. And it's not a surprise to me that those videos, you know, have traveled in the way that they have. And your demeanor in speaking about it is, you know, I think a product of the decades of meditation that you have. You're able to speak about these things with a degree of equanimity and, and objectivity

• 27:13Rich Roll?

  while making your point, but in a manner that is digestible to, you know, a large audience, I think. Is that fair?

• 27:23Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I realized I was actually uniquely qualified to speak on it because I'm black, so I have that experience. But then also, like you said, with the meditation and the wellness stuff, like I almost had like a, a way to kind of speak on it from a 10,000 foot perspective instead of the ground level perspective where everyone's like heated and emotional. And, you know, and there's a time and place for that, obviously. And I think it was also important to just relate to it from a little bit further out and show, you know, there's some connections here in a way that the people who follow me, which is primarily white people, right? Because that's who I was really speaking to. I wasn't speaking to black people.

• 28:08Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 28:08Light Watkins?

  Because black people don't need to be told about racism and all of that.

• 28:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:13Light Watkins?

  So, and then I got, you know, you get a lot of comments like, oh, I've never thought about it like that. Oh, wow. You know, I need to go and have a conversation. And it's like, well, no, this is how you have the conversation because otherwise you're gonna have people be defensive and whatnot. So, yeah, it was, it was, it was an interesting time and I felt very. It felt very organic for me. It was almost like, you know, if the world wanted to talk about ultra marathons and it's like, whoa.

• 28:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:37Light Watkins?

  And recovery.

• 28:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 28:39Light Watkins?

  It's like, well, Rich has a lot to say about it.

• 28:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, you know, I applaud it. You know, it was like, oh, he's stepping up to own a space. He must be feeling on some level like he's getting out of his comfort zone. But it was so clearly not just the right thing to do, but the right thing for you to do. Like, it felt like you were very comfortable doing it, even though it departed from kind of the way you normally operate. I mean, I remember one video you made. It was called something like, "For White People Asking What to Do About Racism." And I watched that and I think about that video all the time. And I would have to tell you that, you know, I credit that video and other videos that

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  you've made with how I started to, you know, rethink how I'm approaching the moment. And that was a big, that was a big motivator in, in our decision to go to Minneapolis the other week and have those conversations that we've had. So, you know, if you ever questioned the efficacy or the, you know, the effect of, of what you're doing, like, I can tell you that I'm personally grateful for it.

• 29:49Light Watkins?

  Thank you, man. Yeah, it was interesting because I also, I didn't want to, you know, once you go viral with something, it's obviously tempting to kind of feed into that. Like, wow, I could, you know, like, my whole follower count doubled and everything and, and so, but I didn't, I had to consciously choose to continually be organic with it and not try to force, you know, these topics because I knew that they would be very popular. I wanted to, because I think that's one of the reasons why it resonated initially is because I wasn't trying to become popular. I wasn't trying to go viral. I was just speaking

• 30:31Light Watkins?

  openly and authentically. And so, it was just, it was a really interesting opportunity to kind of go back within and, and still maintain that level of what I felt was authenticity throughout the whole process. And I'm honestly, I'm kind of...

• 30:47Light Watkins?

  It was nice to get back to talking about things that weren't necessarily directly tied into all of that, because again, that's been an ongoing conversation in my consciousness for as long as I've been on the planet. And ultimately, it's not my issue to solve, you know, or even to give all this perspective to. I think ultimately, it's something that needs to be worked out with white people.

• 31:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:15Light Watkins?

  Right? And I'm happy to kind of give the impetus for that conversation to take place, but what would make me really happy is to see more white people just having, initiating that conversation with other white people and just kind of talking about it. And hopefully, you know, getting other people to talk about it and just having the conversation more and more and more, because I kind of started feeling like a broken record after a little while.

• 31:48Rich Roll?

  Well, I think, I think those conversations are happening. I think more white people are engaging in that in a more meaningful way than they have historically. I think a lot of white people feel paralyzed. They're so terrified of getting it wrong that it prevents the conversation from even happening. And there's a permissiveness to the way that you kind of speak about it that provides that, that kind of opening, I think, that allows people to feel a little bit more comfortable engaging in it, knowing you're not going to get it right, or being okay with misstepping as long as, you know, in good faith, you're grappling with it in, in a way that, you know, perhaps could have some kind of impact.

• 32:29Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 32:30Rich Roll?

  I don't know, man. What's your sense of all of it now? I mean, it's been a year. We just, we came back from Minneapolis a couple of weeks ago. You know, and part of that, you know, even if the trial wasn't going on, like it was something I wanted to do, because there's this sense like, oh, well, we did the George Floyd thing, like now we're past that and like now we're, we're good, right? And it's like, no, this is, this is something that's going to take a very long time, like we have to keep having it. But at the same time, are we belaboring it? Are we sounding like a broken record? Like finding that balance, I think, also.

• 33:04Light Watkins?

  Well, I think, yeah, I think that's the shift that ultimately needs to happen. I would, I'm not, I can't speak for all black people, but I will speak from my own experiences. Like, I don't like having...

• 33:15Light Watkins?

  Like I'm like anybody else, like I have a book that's coming out, it's about inspiration. I have other things that I'm excited about. And every time the police or there's some situation that occurs, right? It's almost like as a black person, you have to stop and,

• 33:30Light Watkins?

  you know, start talking about that and say her name and, you know, all these kinds of things. And it's like white people have the option to do it. They don't have to do it. They can do it if they want to, but ultimately, you know, as a black creator, you kind of have to at least acknowledge it in all. So it's like you have to figure out ways to thread in police brutality with talking about the art of inspiration.

• 33:52Rich Roll?

  And Well, you did it in the book. I mean, you tell the story of you and your brothers, kids and the sort of legacy of that and how these experiences recur over the course of your lifetime. And you just learn to assimilate, you know, to that reality on some level, but that this is nothing unique. You know, anybody who's living the black experience knows this well.

• 34:14Light Watkins?

  Yeah. And, you know, that's just part of what you do as a black person. So, but you'd like to see it with other people as well. You like to see people take it as seriously when, when it happens, you know, to anyone. And, but, you know, it's a big world. People have a lot going on and, and so it's just, it's going to take time, I guess. But we have to keep talking about it. So I'm glad we're, we've talked about it here on this podcast.

• 34:38Rich Roll?

  I'm glad to, I'm glad to talk about it with you. I'll talk about it as much as you like, but we also want to talk about, we want to talk about the book, right?

• 34:44Light Watkins?

  Let's do it.

• 34:46Rich Roll?

  Knowing where to look. You did an extraordinary job with this book. I love it. It's beautiful. It's as much, you know, an art book as it is a book book. It is a bit of a choose your adventure type thing. You can crack it open to, to any page. And it's one of those things where like, oh, I didn't know that this is what I needed today, but this is exactly what I needed to hear. The, the artistry behind it is very cool. As you said, there's, there's like Easter eggs in here and the layout, you know, is what you've done with like font and type set and all of that and graphic design all kind of feeds the themes that you're trying to express.

• 35:26Rich Roll?

  And it's all, you know, oriented around these 108 essentially like anecdotes, lessons, stories. And 108, of course, being this spiritually relevant number that permeates Hinduism and Buddhism and is this metaphor for unity and wholeness and any number of other mystical factors that apply to that specific number, including the number of beads on any mala that you drape around your neck.

• 35:57Light Watkins?

  Yeah, initially, obviously, there was a conversation around 365, one a day. But I didn't want the experience to have a linear, even an accidentally linear approach. I wanted, I really wanted people to feel like they could just start anywhere. And even if they needed to revisit the same one, it's almost like one of those magic eight balls that you, you know, from when we were younger, where you shake it up and it's got that little blue liquid and then the answer to whatever your question was would come into the little viewer. And so I wanted to have that kind of feeling and a level of engagement with people.

• 36:41Light Watkins?

  And I feel like we've succeeded in that. We painstakingly went over every single, like, there's literally no detail in any of those pages that we didn't at least spend a few hours going over and talking about how we can really bring the meaning through the design and the way the text is shaped and all of that. So I want it to be like this little adventure that people may not discover what's hidden in there until they've read it two or three times or more.

• 37:11Rich Roll?

  And it is, you know, it is about brevity, too. Like, it's not, you know, they're simple stories, but they're powerful lessons. It's a book about, you know, all kinds of things, kindness, patience, reflection, relationships, gratitude, trust, faith.

• 37:28Light Watkins?

  Everything we struggle with.

• 37:29Rich Roll?

  Small gestures, compassion.

• 37:31Light Watkins?

  Everything we struggle with on a daily, daily, moment-to-moment basis. Almost anything you're conflicted with right now, if you crack the book open, you can probably find, and I tell people, this is not about giving you the answer, it's just a little nudge to maybe look in this direction or look behind you, and that's where you'll find your own answer, your own solution within yourself.

• 37:53Rich Roll?

  If there is a meta arc or theme to it, though, it's, in my mind, a book about inspiration and courage. You know, the opening of the book with this story about your decision to go to Paris, I mean, that's an amazing story. How, you know, the universe conspired to support you at just the right time. And it's sort of faith and courage in motion. And having that level of conviction about that at a young age, I think, is interesting and kind of foreshadowed the life to come, even if you were not consciously aware of how it would play out.

• 38:34Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I wasn't consciously aware, but obviously, in hindsight, I feel very fortunate to have had that kind of experience in such an obvious way. So what you're referring to is, I was, when I graduated college, I had a nine-to-five job for a few months, realized right off the bat, this is not really for me, or it's gonna be here later, so I may as well, you know, do something else, see the world, exercise freedom. And I had this calling to go to Paris, and there was nothing really more to it than that. And I spent my last little money on a one-way ticket to Paris, not really knowing anyone

• 39:15Light Watkins?

  there, not speaking the language, just really a leap of faith in every sense of that phrase. And landed in Paris and ended up, after, on the first day, ended up running into some friends of mine from college.

• 39:32Rich Roll?

  Well, listen, hold on, I'm gonna interrupt you. And like, we gotta back up a little bit, because there's two things that immediately pop into my head that I want to know more about. And the first is, the impulse, the germinating impulse to even do it in the first place, like... What was the, you know, conscious awareness around that? Like, it was this knowing, like, you just had to do this thing. You knew on paper, it was kind of insane. Like, you didn't even want to tell your mom what you were doing. You told her you had a job in Paris. But you had this compulsion that you couldn't ignore, that motivated this whole thing.

• 40:09Light Watkins?

  Yeah, it was a thought that would not go away. And now I realize that whenever you have a thought that feels charming to your heart, and it doesn't go away, that's an indication from the universe, in quotes, the universe, to move in that direction. It doesn't mean that you're necessarily meant to fulfill that completely, but just take a step or two in that direction, and then the next instructions will come to you once you start moving in that direction.

• 40:41Rich Roll?

  Sure. It's one thing to have that sense, and it's another thing to trust it or to take action on it, especially as a young person who's got all this social programming around, like, you gotta get the job, and here's what you do, and this is how it's gonna play out. So there's something about you that I think is unique in your ability at that young age to have that cognizance, to be able to recognize that as the opportunity that you needed to follow.

• 41:11Light Watkins?

  Well, there was some fear there, too, you know? Like, I wasn't all courageous and like, you know? Like, I definitely was skeptical. I definitely had doubts. I definitely didn't know what was gonna happen. But I had been testing the waters with following that voice for a few years prior to that, even in university. I remember I was, I'd applied for and campaigned for this job as the editor of the yearbook in college, which was a very prominent position because you got paid, you got a great parking space at Howard University in Washington, D.C. And I did that in my junior year.

• 41:55Light Watkins?

  And so the expectation is, once you do it, and now you've already had the experience on your belt, of course you're gonna do it your senior year. Why wouldn't you, right?

• 42:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:02Light Watkins?

  But I decided, something told me not to do it. And instead to go and explore, like, working on Capitol Hill and doing these other things, taking photography classes and all this other stuff. So I listened to it. And it was great, you know? And I don't know what I missed out on from not doing it. But, you know, those kinds of decisions I'd been making, just kind of... And I guess a part of that was not identifying success with money, or with prominence, or with titles, right? And I feel like I consciously had been questioning all of that for a long time. And so when it came up again after college, and I was at that job,

• 42:46Light Watkins?

  you know, I decided to leave the job because I didn't equate my success with rising up through the ranks of that advertising agency. And so it was just kind of an extension of all of that, if I'm looking back at it now. But, you know, I like to speak about these things in ways that help other people access the same kind of thing. And I wasn't meditating, or I wasn't doing... This is, we're talking the mid 90s now, so there was none of that happening. But I do remember intentionally just testing the waters and questioning, you know, if this is really making me happy, or if this path is going to lead to some sense of fulfillment within.

• 43:27Light Watkins?

  And so on paper, or if you pulled the lens back on my life at that time, it looks like I was kind of all over the place, you know? I was trying this and trying that. But really, I was just trying to taste different colors of life to find, okay, what's the path for me? And it happened to be taking me to Europe.

• 43:45Rich Roll?

  Right. So you go to the airport, you got like a couple hundred bucks, right? That's it?

• 43:49Light Watkins?

  Yeah, nothing.

• 43:50Rich Roll?

  And a backpack. And the flight's oversold, so they start doing an auction. You know, who's gonna give up their seat? The auction ratchets up to 400 bucks, or whatever it is. And you opt for that. So before you've even left, you already have taken care of your return ticket.

• 44:05Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I got two of those in two days in a row.

• 44:07Rich Roll?

  So another signal from the universe, okay, this might work out.

• 44:11Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 44:12Rich Roll?

  And you meet people... On the airplane?

• 44:14Light Watkins?

  No, in the hotel.

• 44:16Rich Roll?

  Right, in the hotel before you left, right.

• 44:18Light Watkins?

  Cause they gave up their seats as well.

• 44:20Rich Roll?

  So you already know people who are going to Paris who are Americans before you even go. So you have some kind of, you know, grounding foundation. You go to Paris, you interview for a job you don't get, but down the hall is like your college friend that you didn't even know lived in Paris. There's like all of these crazy.

• 44:36Light Watkins?

  Well, this guy looked at me in that first office and says, you know, what happened with you in this job? And I said, I didn't get it. And he said, he was, he was from Chicago.

• 44:48Rich Roll?

  He said, I've met you before.

• 44:50Light Watkins?

  He recognized me from Chicago. He recognized my photo.

• 44:52Rich Roll?

  From some modeling thing that you did?

• 44:55Light Watkins?

  Yeah, from some modeling thing I did. He recognized me. He happened to live in Paris and he was from Chicago and he was in the office that day, that morning. And the first place I went, once I landed, and I told him, oh, I got rejected. And he said, follow me. And he took me out of that office on the same floor, the same building, down to the next office, right next to it. And we walked in and then we saw my friend from college who turned around and goes, oh my God, what are you doing here?

• 45:21Rich Roll?

  And he didn't know that she knew you.

• 45:23Light Watkins?

  No, no. He didn't know she was in there.

• 45:25Rich Roll?

  It's like bananas, right?

• 45:26Light Watkins?

  She just happened to be there. She wasn't working there. She just happened to be there.

• 45:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:31Light Watkins?

  With her friend who happened to have a spare apartment, cause his mom had just left town to go visit his sister. And he said, where are you, they said, where are you staying? I said, I don't have a place yet. I literally didn't have.

• 45:41Rich Roll?

  It was the same day that you arrived.

• 45:42Light Watkins?

  It was the same morning. It was within two hours of arriving.

• 45:45Rich Roll?

  That's crazy.

• 45:46Light Watkins?

  And I had an apartment, I had friends, I had two vouchers for $400 for a flight back.

• 45:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:53Light Watkins?

  I had a occupation.

• 45:54Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's a powerful lesson. You're like, okay.

• 45:56Light Watkins?

  I had everything.

• 45:57Rich Roll?

  This trust in the universe thing, you know, if you do it right, maybe, you know, this is, this is the way.

• 46:02Light Watkins?

  Yeah. And that's the whole through line of the book is really to follow your heart, take the leap of faith, which is where the courage part comes in, cause it requires, it's not about getting rid of the fear. It's about practicing the little things, taking little leaps of faith, whether it's go right instead of left when you're going to work, or whether it's drive the car or ride the bike. Like these little moments where something inside of you is saying, huh, maybe you should ride a bike today. You know, just listening to that. And once you do it enough times in the little ways, then it'll start to accumulate and you'll be able to do it in bigger ways.

• 46:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it really is about those little decisions, those little moments, having the awareness to be attuned to them when they occur so you can course correct. I mean, when I reflect back on my own life, like the huge changes that I've made are the product of small decisions or having enough awareness in a particular moment in time to know this is where I pivot this way. And those pivots are very slight. You know, when we think about things like inspiration and, you know, following your passion and all of these things, we think about sweeping grand gestures, but it doesn't really work like that.

• 47:19Rich Roll?

  And I appreciated in the book how you really, you know, were mindful of noting that it's not about that. It is these little things. And those little things will, are things that I think are visited upon all of us. So it's really, it's really a function of how aware you are. And that cultivating that awareness always goes back to these practices that you've been teaching and practicing yourself forever, the mindfulness and the meditation.

• 47:47Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and it's not even just like, you know, things that light you up inside. It could be like, like on the way here to this interview, I was parked, my rental car was parked in Brentwood, and somebody side swiped it and ripped the side view mirror off and all of these things. Normally, when you walk back to your car and you see that, you're like, shit, now I have to like deal with all of whatever that entails, right? But I tell a story in the book about being stuck in this traffic jam and on my way to teach yoga one morning. And it was like this phantom traffic jam in West Hollywood. It was at a time where there's never traffic on Fountain Avenue. So I'm like zigzagging around the Santa Monica Boulevard

• 48:32Light Watkins?

  and trying to find the shortcut. And because I'm running late, because I didn't give myself enough time to account for a 15-minute traffic jam. End up showing up at class. And 10 minutes late and then turns out right at the top of the hour when the class was supposed to start, this wall mirror, floor to ceiling wall mirror somehow dislodged and came crashing down right where I would have been sitting, starting the yoga class. So they were in there swiping, sweeping up shards of mirror, broken mirror.

• 49:05Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 49:06Light Watkins?

  On the floor and all the students were in the back of the room. And I was like, whoa, that traffic jam, that just spontaneously appeared out of nowhere was actually saving you, me potentially saving my life or saving me from having a very bad start to my day. And so I learned from those kinds of experiences that even when someone sideswipes your car, you know, and it's, I didn't do anything, I wasn't like parked illegally or anything like that. I was just, it was a normal parking spot, but it's like, okay, well evidently, my path is taking me in the direction of having to file a police report and all this, and who knows what's gonna come from that, right?

• 49:47Light Watkins?

  So there's this almost, this sense of anticipation almost where you have enough of these kinds of experiences and it's like, wow, it's almost like because it's taking you off of your normal schedule, it's almost like, okay, what's gonna happen?

• 49:59Rich Roll?

  What kind of cool adventure?

• 50:00Light Watkins?

  What kind of cool things are gonna happen?

• 50:02Rich Roll?

  This is not happening to me, this is happening for me. I don't know how or why, but that will be revealed in time.

• 50:09Light Watkins?

  And if you can just shift your perspective in that way, it could allow you to find a little bit more presence and be a little bit more open to whatever those opportunities could potentially be. So that's been my, my experience and, and that's, you know, like getting rejected from that job in Paris. Like if I had been all sulking and not wanting to talk to anybody, I wouldn't have been open to the guy coming up to me.

• 50:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 50:32Light Watkins?

  Wanting to take me. To the place where I was gonna get all of the apartments and everything else.

• 50:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 50:37Light Watkins?

  So it's like you, it's almost like you can't judge a situation based on what, whatever's happening.

• 50:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 50:43Light Watkins?

  You just have to go with that, that flow of whatever it is, which sounds, again, very simplistic, but it's.

• 50:49Rich Roll?

  Very hard.

• 50:49Light Watkins?

  It works.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  It's so hard to do.

• 50:51Light Watkins?

  It is.

• 50:51Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 50:52Light Watkins?

  It is.

• 50:52Rich Roll?

  Just to maintain neutrality.

• 50:54Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 50:54Rich Roll?

  It's, oh, God, really? This is like interfering with my plan.

• 50:58Light Watkins?

  Yep. That's why the book is called Knowing Where to Look.

• 51:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 51:01Light Watkins?

  Even in those situations, the answers, the solutions are there if you know where to look for them. You know? So I want people to be able to use it for those purposes. When you're having a bad day, for whatever reason, usually the bad day is a result of things not going your way.

• 51:15Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 51:16Light Watkins?

  Right? If you know, kind of, if I read that story about the mirror crashing, then it may allow you to release that, that negativity around the situation and just kind of like settle into it and be open to it and, and you never know what's gonna happen after that.

• 51:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:32Light Watkins?

  And that's what's exciting about life.

• 51:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you mentioned, you know, if you had been sulking after that initial interview. And I think that's a key thing because it's about the energy with which you carry yourself. Like how you're reacting or responding is, you know, directly correlates into how you're being with yourself and how you're being impacts how you're interacting with other people and how they're gonna react to you. You tell a story in the book about how you engage with this flight attendant and you go out of your way to like, shower her with praise and thank her for her hard work and it must be hard.

• 52:09Light Watkins?

  Angry that she was bugging me.

• 52:10Rich Roll?

  Right, like to take that contrary action and then to get this amazing result. And I think that's really powerful and it, it reminds me of an experience that I had when we were in Minneapolis. So our kind of Sherpa, boots-on-the-ground friend of mine who helped make this trip happen and was a, you know, really wonderful host to us when we were in town. His name is Brogan Graham. He's been on the podcast before. He's the founder of November Project. Have you ever met him? Do you know him?

• 52:40Light Watkins?

  No, never met him.

• 52:41Rich Roll?

  He's an extraordinary guy. One of the, I mean, there are extroverted people and then there are Broganverted people. This guy's so extroverted, it's like off the chain. And he has a practice of.

• 52:54Rich Roll?

  Of not only carrying himself with just unbridled positivity and optimism and everything that he does, such that it's become constitutional to him, but he makes a point of going out of his way. When you're, I mean, you can't walk down the street without this guy going up to every single person and asking them how they're doing and engaging in them and saying, "We're new friends" and like exchanging phone numbers. Like, it's exhausting. But it's also, it's a really powerful lesson because all of these people leave those encounters feeling better because he's given them a little bit of love. He's funny. He's a comedian. He's like super, you know, present and engaging. And it was kind of a marvel to watch him

• 53:38Rich Roll?

  do that. And at one point, I think it was Jason asked him, like, "Does anybody just like, you know, you know, shine you on?" And well, he's like, "All the time." He's like, "It doesn't matter." He's like, "It's just taking hits at bat. Like, I'm just, you know, I'm getting more swings. You know, I'm just, it's a practice. It's a practice. I show up for it." And one of the other things that he does is rather than, and I've started incorporating this into my life as a result, rather than texting people or when you're in a text conversation, he sends people what he calls short films. Like, he'll just make a video and, you know, he'll just talk extemporaneously about something and he'll tell a joke. And he just sends that. There's no expectation that you have to get back to him. And there's

• 54:19Rich Roll?

  such a difference when you get one of those. You feel much more connected to that person. And I've started doing that with some friends and it's been a really cool experience of flipping that equation of like, "Oh, I'm too busy" or "I don't want to text this person back" or, or doing it to somebody you haven't talked to in a while and they just get a little movie, you know, in their messages app out of the blue. And it makes me feel better. And I just feel like it's a, it's a practice that I want to continue to cultivate. It's just an example of the story that you told with the flight attendant.

• 54:54Light Watkins?

  Yeah, no, 100%, man. And I tell people, you know,

• 54:58Light Watkins?

  Because people will hear that and go, "Oh, I'm not that kind of person." You know, "I could never do that." But what's your version of that, right? Like, maybe it's a voice note. Maybe you draw something on your drawing app and you send. Like, there's different ways. Maybe you sing a song. Maybe there are different ways for different people. If it resonates, if it kind of like tingles something in your heart, then that's a sign that you should not ignore, that you should find your way of doing that. And the only way to do that is to start doing it. Not to overthink it, but just to start doing it in ways that make you uncomfortable. And then eventually, you'll kind of hone in on what makes you comfortable.

• 55:40Rich Roll?

  Well, the subtlety of it, the tingling can't be confused with the fear because it does require you to do something different is, by definition, to get out of your comfort zone a little bit. So if there's that tingling, it's going to push up against a little bit of a fear response. And so, like, decoupling that or figuring out where you sit with all of that, I think, is a very subtle art.

• 56:03Light Watkins?

  Yeah, it's like when I first started writing these emails that ended up culminating into this book, Knowing Where to Look. You know, I had been receiving Seth Godin's emails forever. And then there was another friend, you probably know Jeff Kober, from the recovery community. He's a meditation teacher actor. And he'd started writing these daily emails. And I was like, "Oh, man." The thought to write a daily email just kept percolating. And then eventually, I decided, "Okay, well, I need to take this thing seriously, but I'm going to run out of content after like three weeks."

• 56:40Rich Roll?

  It's scary.

• 56:40Light Watkins?

  There's only so many stories that exist in the world. And I'd already written my book, so I'd already thought about a lot of stories for my first book, The Inner Gym, which we talked about on this podcast many years ago. And so, yeah, the fear was there and the fear was just as intimidating as the idea was inspiring. And but again, you know, I just had to start. And sure enough, after two or three weeks, I ran out of content. But then something really interesting happened that I would never have discovered had I not started, which is from showing up every day, and Steven Pressfield talks about this, this sort of muse-like creativity started to kind of come through me. And I was like, wow.

• 57:25Light Watkins?

  I literally would be, you know, having to hit the send button when 10 minutes and I had been sitting there for two hours, trying to think of something interesting to say. And then in the final five minutes, it would like come through me. And I would write it down and you get this feeling, okay, this is it. And then you would send it out and the next day, same thing would happen. Maybe you have a little more time, but I just realized that if you keep showing up, you don't have to figure out what to do. You just have to make the space for it. It's kind of like that story I told about, I don't know if you remember the Moses story, but it's one of my favorite stories in the book where it's a biblical story,

• 58:07Light Watkins?

  where, you know, we think about Moses as this kind of charismatic leader of the Hebrews and, you know, he went and faced Pharaoh and all of these things. But the reality of that story, according to historians, was that Moses was a reluctant leader, right? When he was at the burning bush and got the message from God to go to Pharaoh and let his people, demanded to let his people go. So Moses hesitated, he was like, he didn't want to do it because, as they have now identified, Moses had a speech impediment. So he was a stutterer. So this stutterer, who had never been in a leadership position in his life, is being told from, quotes, "God",

• 58:47Light Watkins?

  to go to the most powerful, most dangerous person in the entire land and make a demand on his property. Tell him to give him his property away. So you can imagine he, his first reaction is, you got the wrong person. Right. You know, and God's like, no, you have the perfect person for this because you have to rise to the occasion. And so then Moses asks the most sensible question that anybody would ask in a situation like that, which is, let's suppose I were able to get in front of Pharaoh, if that's even possible, which is probably not. But let's just, let's just run this hypothetical out a little further. What would I say? And God said, "Don't worry about that. Just get in front of Him and then you'll know what to say at the time." And that's kind of it, you know, that's the path.

• 59:32Light Watkins?

  Like, we want the whole blueprint. It's like, "No, no, no, just take the first step." And that's exactly what happened to me. I started writing these things. I didn't, I knew I was gonna run out of content. I didn't know what I was gonna say after that. And I just had that message inside, "Just write what you know now and then you'll figure out what to say next."

• 59:52Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, you have this quote, something about, um, that's profound, something about how, uh, "The next steps aren't revealed until you take the first step." And I think we're all victims, to one degree or another, of analysis paralysis. We wanna, we wanna know what the map looks like in its entirety before we even begin, and so we never get out of the starting gate. And I know this, all the things that I've created started with taking a step and having no idea where it would head. But having, on some level, some trust that if I take that step, that that next step will present itself, and it's never failed me. And I think also, you know, the lesson in what you just shared is this idea that it's

• 1:00:37Rich Roll?

  a witch's brew, or this recipe between practicality and mysticism. Like, the practical aspect of showing up every single day provides the space for the mystical unknown to enter, you know? And that's something Pressfield talks about all the time. And there's also shades of kind of 12-step recovery. Like, when you get sober, the prospect of never drinking again is completely overwhelming, and you're continually told time and time again, "You don't have to worry about that. You just have to hit the pillow tonight sober. You show up for the page. What's my daily email gonna be today? I don't have to worry about the fact that I've committed to doing it every day. I just have to get this one thing done for today and trust that tomorrow, when I, you

• 1:01:20Rich Roll?

  know, open up to the page, that something will inspire me."

• 1:01:24Light Watkins?

  Yeah, it's a momentum game, 100%. And that's how this podcast started, you know? We talked about it before on my podcast, how you went to that warehouse in Hawaii and just kind of, you know, let it rip.

• 1:01:35Rich Roll?

  There was no, I was like, "Am I gonna do a second one? I don't know." Like, this was fun. Let's see where it goes.

• 1:01:40Light Watkins?

  But you learn about the sound, you learn, you wouldn't know what to even think about the sound until you actually have echoey sound in the first.

• 1:01:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, "Oh, I didn't know that. I probably shouldn't record this in a warehouse."

• 1:01:52Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:01:52Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:53Rich Roll?

  Or, you know, how am I gonna put these quote, you know, these little monologues on Instagram with captions that look all fancy like these other people do? Well, I don't know. I guess I have to just film something first. And, you know, there's this thing called the internet and there seems to be a lot of answers on that.

• 1:02:10Light Watkins?

  Yeah, it's not like, you know, the answers may come if you don't do the work. You actually have to do the work. That's the requirement.

• 1:02:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you say, "I love your quote, like, the work is the shortcut."

• 1:02:23Light Watkins?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:02:24Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:02:24Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Rich Roll?

  We're all looking for a way to avoid that. But the work is the means by which you find the answers to which you seek.

• 1:02:33Light Watkins?

  Just committing to taking those first steps. That's the shortest route.

• 1:02:37Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:02:37Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:46Rich Roll?

  There is a sort of precarious aspect of stepping into this world of self-help and grappling with the ideas of curiosity and inspiration and motivation and discipline and purpose and passion and living your life in accordance with your values and self-actualization. Like, these have all become commodified to one degree or another and also sort of diluted in what they actually mean. I think the interplay between these types of words, you know, these words in general getting thrown around like fairly cavalierly reminds me that I'm not really even sure we agree on what they, you know, they actually mean how they operate,

• 1:03:31Rich Roll?

  how they interact with each other, let alone how to properly understand and leverage them to move your life in the direction of your aspirations. These are all themes and words and topics that you are grappling with in the book. So I think it would be helpful and instructive to spend a little bit of time talking about that.

• 1:03:52Light Watkins?

  I've got a story in the book about how I was in a yoga class one day and the teacher... Popped up into a headstand and he said, you know, the headstand is the most spiritual pose in yoga. And I was a yoga teacher at the time.

• 1:04:09Rich Roll?

  You're like, fuck off.

• 1:04:09Light Watkins?

  I was like, what the fuck is he talking about? The headstand, how do you qualify? And then I realized that his definition of spiritual was different from my definition of spiritual. And that was a big aha for me because then I realized that every time I get into these kind of confrontations with people, and this is important also in the race conversation, right? We talk about racism or discrimination or whatever, systemic, there are people have different definitions almost all the time. Almost every relationship fight is the result of people having a different understanding of what it means to feel safe or what it means to love someone, right? Somebody may think love is always being there, no matter what.

• 1:04:52Light Watkins?

  Someone else may think love is allowing someone to fully express independently and then coming together and sharing whatever fulfillment they have inside. Like, there's different understandings of all of these really simple terms that we kind of take for granted. And so, again, I'm not presenting myself as the big guru with all the answers to all these questions. What is self-actualization? What is what? I'm just saying, have a conversation and talk about what your understanding of self-actualization or love is, and then we can contrast that with my understanding. We can find where we find the similarities and then we can move from there. Maybe the ultimate solution is we have to go to therapist and have that therapist mediate like our mutual

• 1:05:37Light Watkins?

  understanding of these things because that's where you're going to find unity. Otherwise, if you want to try to force your understanding onto me of whatever the term is, then that's where you're going to get disunity and confrontation. And what, you know, you're going to create an experience that you ultimately don't want to create in your life.

• 1:05:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's, that's right. I think that's powerful. When I think about how you think about these things, my sense is that it begins.

• 1:06:14Rich Roll?

  Like if you're on this path towards greater fulfillment, or greater purpose, a greater purpose-driven life on some level, that this journey is sparked initially by curiosity and the courage to follow that curiosity. That may morph into what we might commonly understand as inspiration, or a sense of direction, like a north star. And it's through that pursuit that purpose is revealed. Is that a fair characterization of how you think about it?

• 1:06:50Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and I would go further to suggest, because I don't think anybody knows for a fact, but to suggest that for those people who don't identify with a purpose, or don't think that they have found their purpose, I would suggest that it's almost like the fish in water thing. Like you're so deeply immersed and enmeshed in your purpose, whatever you're doing is a part of that purpose, that you can't really see it, and that's okay. Because that's what's normally happening for most people. And if we start thinking about it too much, it can actually cause us to be a little clumsy with our normal, you know, living our normal life.

• 1:07:34Light Watkins?

  But if you just keep following whatever you can sense as your heart, you know, a message from your heart. And this is where meditation and all those kind of practices really come in handy, because it helps you to discern between messages from the alcohol, from the pain body, from the trauma, from the stress.

• 1:07:53Rich Roll?

  Or the scrolling.

• 1:07:55Light Watkins?

  Or the scrolling, versus a legitimate message from that still, small voice of your inner guidance. And again, that takes practice. So I say, start with the little things. Find the courage with the little things, right? Even if it's, if your heart's saying, you know, have a salad today instead of fried whatever, you know, follow with that one little time, just to reinforce it. And every time we do that, it gets stronger and stronger. There's no way to shortcut this process. You have to like start listening to it in order to strengthen it and allow it to turn the volume up. And then once the volume turns up, then... It becomes a lot easier to take those leaps.

• 1:08:38Rich Roll?

  But that takes time, so patience is a requisite in all of this. And I think, you know, baked into that is an appreciation for the slow evolution of these kinds of things and an appreciation for the fact that it is about small gestures that aggregate over time. And it's difficult in our culture where we're so prone to fall in love with the overnight success, or, you know, we have this fantasy of that, or in our scrolling, we see, you gotta quit your job, and here's how I made a million dollars. Like, there's all these narratives out there that I think make a lot of people feel either

• 1:09:19Rich Roll?

  shame, or guilt, or inadequate, because their lives aren't measuring up to this, you know, fantasy version of whoever is, you know, spinning some yarn in a short video, or in a post on social media.

• 1:09:34Light Watkins?

  That's why I love memorial services and funerals. As sad as they are, you get reminded of what's truly important in life. You see everyone, and all they talk about are the small gestures.

• 1:09:47Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:09:47Light Watkins?

  You know, so at the end of the day, no matter who you are, no matter how many accomplishments you have, no matter how much money you've acquired, or titles, or whatever, what people are going to talk about from your life are those small moments where you allow people, you help people feel seen and heard, you stop, you went out of your way, five minutes here and there. That's what people remember.

• 1:10:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that trophy thing of, it's not what you do, it's how you make people feel.

• 1:10:14Light Watkins?

  Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it sounds cliche, because it's true. And I think we need to be reminded of that as often as possible, because the social conditioning, no matter how much we intellectually understand that making more money is not gonna make me happier. Right?

• 1:10:34Rich Roll?

  We all seem to still think that we're gonna find an end run around that one.

• 1:10:37Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and we still make choices based on that hypothesis. Mostly subconsciously, because that's the society we've grown up in. This sort of casino capitalist society of zero sum. You know, I need to make as much as possible because no one's gonna look out for me and blah, blah, blah. And I'm not anti-capitalist, I'm not anti-profit, I'm not anti-success. That's not what my message is. I'm pro-following your heart while you're doing all that other stuff. And if you can put as much focus and attention on following your inner guidance, what you're gonna find, in my own experience, what you're gonna find is you become more fulfilled as a person.

• 1:11:20Light Watkins?

  And then that inner fulfillment starts to drive the agenda. You start to take jobs, you start to engage in relationships and friendships based on what you feel inside, right? Which is, I'm already complete, so I'm just doing this because this is a great outlet for the fulfillment that I can tangibly access inside. And it changes the why. It changes why you do the things you do, right? It's not to get happy. It's because you're already fulfilled inside. And again, when I'm talking about these terms fulfillment and happiness, I'm not talking about binary terms. I'm talking about on a spectrum, right?

• 1:12:04Light Watkins?

  Somebody may be at a five on a scale of 10 to fulfillment. Someone else may be on a seven, someone else may be on a nine, right? And so wherever we fall on that spectrum, that will determine the extent to which we can make those kinds of more powerful expansive choices, right? So if you're at a five, then that means maybe half the time you can make that courageous choice and the other half of the time you succumb to the fear. So really, the game is, how do I raise my baseline level of happiness or fulfillment? And again, that's where I loop back around. And I talk about this a lot in the book, back to meditation. Like, you can't ignore... That sort of foundational inner work that and it doesn't have to be seated eyes closed meditation.

• 1:12:47Light Watkins?

  It could be journaling, could be gratitude exercises, could be volunteering. Some kind of inner work is almost required. Well, take the almost out of it, it's required in order to raise that baseline level. You can't ignore that and be happy at the same time. That's the premise by which I'm presenting all of these stories.

• 1:13:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. People don't want to hear that.

• 1:13:09Light Watkins?

  No.

• 1:13:11Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Just give me the good stuff.

• 1:13:12Light Watkins?

  Drink this sugar drink and you're happy.

• 1:13:14Rich Roll?

  It's like, yeah, just give me the thing that's going to give me the thing that I want. Like, I get all that, that's fine. Or you don't understand my life. Like, I'm working two jobs, I got kids. I'm just, you know, like, that just sounds, that sounds cool. I'm happy for you, Light. But I'm already, you know, tapped to the gills. And so I guess in the next life, right? So how do you communicate with somebody who feels trapped in that way? In a very real way?

• 1:13:41Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I mean, in the recovery community, what do they say? Sometimes you gotta hit rock bottom in order to appreciate making different choices. And unfortunately, and maybe fortunately, a lot of people are on that path, right? And the path is the path. Like, it's, you know, nobody wants to go see a movie where the protagonist only has great things happen to them and then the movie ends. You want to see the whole trajectory. You want to see the low moment, you want to see the rock bottom, you want to see the self doubt, you want to see the redemption. And so we're all kind of in our own version of that hero's journey. And so knowing you can't go wrong, that's the great news about it, right?

• 1:14:22Light Watkins?

  Whatever your belief is about what I'm saying, or about what you've read somewhere that you've dismissed, you can't go wrong. That's a part of the story and that's what's so great about it, you know? Whether it's a traffic jam, or someone sideswipes your car, someone, you know, gets sick. Like, that's a part of your story. And all I'm saying is if you can be open to the fact that there's some opportunity there, whatever it is, then it will gift you with some insight that you would not have had otherwise that could

• 1:14:58Light Watkins?

  Help you bring about the things that you feel are you're being blocked from. Because if you're in that situation where you're thinking, okay, I don't have any time to think or space to think about any of these kinds of really highfalutin self-actualization concepts, then it's usually you see your job or you see your family situation as the obstacle. And as our friend Ryan Holiday says, you know, the obstacle is the way, but you have to be open to that as a possibility. So I just want to help people look at that differently.

• 1:15:35Rich Roll?

  Right. The other, the other big stumbling block, and you've spoken about this quite a bit, is, is the inner critic. You know, that, that keeps people from even getting out of the gate or, or even contemplating the possibility that change is available.

• 1:15:52Light Watkins?

  Yeah. And look, I don't want to sugarcoat any of this. That's a really, that's a real thing. Your inner critic is a real thing. And what I'm doing is I'm showing you that it didn't come out of nowhere. Like, the inner critic develops and gets cultivated over many, many years and many instances of reinforcing that belief. And so in order to really overcome it properly, we have to do the opposite. We have to reinforce a different type of belief. And if we have enough empirical evidence, enough experience for ourselves that, you know, there's some light at the end of this tunnel, then if we keep moving in that direction, then eventually we will be able to contend with the

• 1:16:37Light Watkins?

  the fear and the inner critic and all those other things that are kind of stopping us from accessing our, our full potential. And so I just, you know, that's the whole idea of these stories. It's just to kind of chip away at the critic and all those other inner voices that I, we all have inside of us. Like, I have them, you have them, whoever's listening to this has them. The only difference in someone who seems to be on their path and someone who feels like lost is that it's not that that person is less busy or less fearful or any of those things. It's just that that person has usually Challenged those small moments where the inner voice seems to be driving the agenda.

• 1:17:23Light Watkins?

  And they've experimented with a different choice long enough. And held on the, in there long enough for some new insight to take shape.

• 1:17:33Rich Roll?

  Sure, and that requires awareness plus courage. But developing those always goes back to getting quiet, right? There's no end run around this inner work. Because if you're not consciously aware of how you're operating in the world and responding to the signals and the stimuli that are getting thrown at you, then you're incapable of seeing the broader patterns that continue to play out in your life. That then, you know, prevents you from being able to create that new narrative, to understand when it's the critic that's creeping up or the fear response. So that you can make a conscious choice to behave in contradiction to that.

• 1:18:16Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and I would give your audience credit. I'm sure no one listens, I mean, you know, there are very few people listening to this particular podcast who aren't at least a little bit open to, to that, that different sort of path. Just from your own personal story, you know, and transformation. And so, yeah, it starts with awareness. And that's, that's all I want to do is help people become aware. I don't have, I don't have everyone's, you know, there's no one size fits all solution to any of it. But we do have to be at least aware that there are some inconsistencies in what's happening to me and the way I feel about it in life.

• 1:18:56Light Watkins?

  If I can find more symmetry or synergy within that, at least mentally, right? Starting just mentally, like shifting, like I really had to work to shift my, when I first saw my, my rental car side swiped, I really had to, because I didn't get the insurance.

• 1:19:11Rich Roll?

  Oh, no.

• 1:19:13Light Watkins?

  My credit card should cover it, but. You know, it takes, I have to literally, I have to work on that, you know?

• 1:19:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:19Light Watkins?

  And, and

• 1:19:20Rich Roll?

  That'll throw anyone off their game.

• 1:19:21Light Watkins?

  Yeah, exactly. And it ends up ruining your whole day. But then if that happens, what are you missing out on if you let that, something like that ruin your whole the rest of your day or week or what have you?

• 1:19:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How are you so easily relinquishing your power?

• 1:19:36Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:36Rich Roll?

  To some external event?

• 1:19:38Light Watkins?

  But it's easy to do if that's, if you have a string of those, if you have, if you're dealing with racism and you're dealing with a boss that's like, you know, not understanding you or is incompetent. And then you're dealing with something like that. And that was the whole idea.

• 1:19:50Rich Roll?

  If you can't pay it and, or if you do pay it, then you're not gonna be able to pay your rent.

• 1:19:54Light Watkins?

  Exactly.

• 1:19:54Rich Roll?

  These are like cascading things that

• 1:19:56Light Watkins?

  That's right.

• 1:19:57Rich Roll?

  create a lot of chaos.

• 1:19:58Light Watkins?

  That's, that's what I, we talked about with the inner gym, which is like building up the inner muscles to be able to, to contend with that. Otherwise, it feels like running an ultra marathon. You've never even ran around the block before.

• 1:20:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, it's, it's, it's really true. And again, these things are subtle. They're whispers. And if you don't have that quietude, or you haven't cultivated, or finely attuned your awareness, and you're just ping ponging through life, reacting impulsively to everything that's getting thrown at you, you're gonna, you're gonna miss the miracle. Right? Is essentially what you're saying. And you have, you know, within many of the stories throughout the book, there are examples of little gestures that end up being very meaningful in a way that you wouldn't suspect from, you know, the kid who was gonna jump off the bridge and has a brief encounter with a stranger

• 1:20:54Rich Roll?

  that literally, you know, unbeknownst to the stranger, you know, altered this person's life. You know, it's, it is things like that that are the most meaningful. You know, you told the story of Moses. We all want God to talk to us directly and tell us what to do. And it just doesn't work like that.

• 1:21:11Light Watkins?

  Or, or God is talking to us all the time from within. And, you know, we're, we're reacting like Moses initially reacted. But, you know, what happens if we do the opposite? Kind of like the Jerry Seinfeld story of, you know, that episode when George Costanza complains that his life is just in shambles. And Jerry says, why don't you just do the opposite of everything you've been doing? And he does the opposite and his life turns out to be, you know, wilder than his imagination ever was. And, uh, and so, you know, that, those kinds of, of lessons, I think we just need to hear over and over and over in as many different ways as possible. So.

• 1:21:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Contrary action.

• 1:21:57Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:57Rich Roll?

  That's what you hear time and time again in 12 step. It's like, well, my impulse is to react in this way. And it's like, what happens if you do the opposite? Because we already know what happens when you do it that way. You've got a lifetime of that and it doesn't play out well. So why don't you try this? Like, oh, that doesn't feel right at all. Yeah. Well, it's a muscle.

• 1:22:16Light Watkins?

  Yeah. And the cognitive dissonance is so strong, you know? Like I was talking to a friend of mine today who came up with this sort of, what I thought was a harebrained idea. But he had already convinced himself that this is what he needed to do. And, you know, I've gotten better because I'm not perfect. I've gotten better at just saying, okay, let's see what happens in that situation. And, you know, people have to kind of run their own research and experiments and, um, with the understanding that you, again, you can't go wrong. Because even if you arrive at a destination that isn't what you ultimately wanted, it's now you know, you have another, you have more evidence that this is not the way, right?

• 1:23:01Light Watkins?

  And it may take accumulating, you know, all this evidence in order to finally be open to this other way. So that's why I say you're already on your path and, uh, and your path may have to take you through these, these twists and turns.

• 1:23:17Rich Roll?

  Right. The, the universe is always knocking and those knocks are, you know, kind of guardrails that are set up and you, you bang up against them and those are little light knocks like, hey, maybe that wasn't the right thing to do. But if you continue to ignore those signals, in my experience, the universe starts knocking louder and louder and louder until some cataclysmic event occurs that finally gets your attention. And it's only in retrospect that you realize like, oh, you know, it was trying to tell me all along, like I could have gotten off this train way back there and spared myself all of this pain. But it takes what it takes. Pain is a great motivator.

• 1:23:57Rich Roll?

  And when the pain of your circumstances exceeds the fear of getting out of your comfort zone and trying something different, that's the, the space where. Real change can occur.

• 1:24:09Light Watkins?

  And that's the power of not numbing yourself, not numbing the pain. The pain is useful in that way because it can help you make different choices. Whereas if you numb the pain, you tend to make the same choices.

• 1:24:20Rich Roll?

  Which is at odds with all the cultural signaling that we have, which is that we should be pain free all the time. We should always be happy. If you're not feeling that way, there's something wrong with you. Here's a medication.

• 1:24:33Light Watkins?

  Yeah. So, you know, we have a lot of work to do.

• 1:24:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How has, you know, as somebody who's been practicing and teaching meditation for so long, how has it evolved? Like, what is your perspective on it now, since the last time we spoke? Particularly in terms of like this, you know, rather unique year that we've all experienced.

• 1:24:54Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I think this was the pop quiz, you know? Like, we got the lesson. You should be meditating, you should be doing your inner work. And for those of us who kind of took that seriously,

• 1:25:06Light Watkins?

  I think this year was an opportunity to really go deeper into that. And for those of us who kind of, you know, didn't study for the test, it was like, just like it was in school. Like, you felt overwhelmed, you felt unsure of yourself. But you made a point to go back and, you know, take a peek at the lesson because you know the test is going to be repeated again and again and again until we get it. So, on one hand, I think that, you know, again, like all quote unquote bad situations, there is some value and opportunity even in the pandemic. And hopefully, you were able to find something within yourself

• 1:25:51Light Watkins?

  that you could help to improve or to build or, you know, or to work on and/or help someone else. If you're already feeling complete, then you are able to use that as an opportunity to help other people. Right? There's always an opportunity. And I really do feel like ultimately, our life must be about service in some capacity.

• 1:26:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:12Light Watkins?

  And so. You know, whether we're serving ourselves, self-care, whether we're helping others, whether we're helping our community, we have to make that a part of the daily agenda, not just how can I, you know, invest in more crypto for the sake of making more money so that I can be more comfortable? Like, the whole comfortable approach to happiness is really backward, in my opinion. And it really needs to be about how can I use whatever I have to the highest advantage of the people who are within my circle of influence, which everyone has somebody who's in their circle of influence. And that could be through writing, could be through speaking, could be through posting, could be through, you know, whatever means speaks to you the loudest at this moment in time.

• 1:26:56Light Watkins?

  But I think that's what those kinds of opportunities are for. And it also exposes where we are living our lives most unsustainably and feeling and perpetuating a sense of disconnection and disunity with one another. So, you know, there's some, there's some opportunities within that as well as a society, and I'm glad that that's become a part of the conversation.

• 1:27:21Rich Roll?

  What you said makes me feel hopeful. But then I look at what's going on, I see the divisiveness, I see the pain, I see very real suffering. A lot of people who are struggling in meaningful ways with the challenges that, you know, they've been presented with. How do you grapple with, you know, what is your perspective on humanity's ability to emerge out of this situation? Or just in general, to thrive in a new and different way?

• 1:27:50Light Watkins?

  Yeah, we're in phase one, you know? Like, if I came in here for this interview and I was like, Rich, you know, you did X, Y, and Z to me. And you're like, what are you talking about? I didn't do anything. I don't, you know, I don't know you like that. And that's, those kinds of conversations are happening with people, where, you know, you have one group of people who are feeling accused of something that they don't feel that they are directly responsible for. You have another group of people who feel victimized or feel abused. And so, they're going through the stages of grief. And so, that's going to create contention, you know, in the, in the middle. And you'd have to, we have to move through that. It happens with everything. It happened with me, too.

• 1:28:33Light Watkins?

  Right, it happens with all these different movements where we kind of go in these extreme ways in the beginning, but then eventually we kind of come back to the middle and we try to find unity in the middle. And I think it's a reminder that we're a lot more human than we probably imagine ourselves to be, all of us are, which is a good thing too, you know, because we're, I mean, we pulled the lens back further, we're just animals. We're animals who can think about the future and the past more than, say, a monkey or a dog or whatever can, and we can organize a lot, a little bit better than most other animals. We're not, I mean, it's still an argument of whether we're the most intelligent creatures,

• 1:29:18Light Watkins?

  right? If you look at the way we treat each other, that comes in a serious question compared to whales and dolphins and, you know, things like that. So I think this is a great first step, at least we're talking about it, because before this, you had a whole segment of the population who were feeling abused, and there was no one to talk to about it except for themselves. So now we're talking about it, you know, and maybe by phase four or five, you'll start to see a lot more unity in these conversations instead of a lot of defensiveness.

• 1:29:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, the manner in which change occurs, transpires, is super interesting. These changes always end up happening in the middle through conversations of people slowly coming together and trying to identify what they actually agree on, and concessions are made and all the like. But the movements themselves are usually catalyzed by people who don't want any, have no interest in the middle. Like they, you know, it's, it's through a very loud voice that's taking, you know, a very intense stand on a particular issue that tends to garner people's attention and create the conversation in the first place. So it's almost like you need those voices, you need people who... Can do that, are willing to do that.

• 1:30:38Rich Roll?

  And then you need the negotiators and the people in the middle as well. Like, I think it's like, all voices are required.

• 1:30:45Light Watkins?

  Also, if you look at Hollywood, if you look at just media in general, right? And this is, I don't know this for a fact, but I'll just guesstimate that maybe 90% of the stories that are told are pretty much all about white people in every conceivable situation. White people in space, white people in the future, white people in the past, white people, you know, doing all these things.

• 1:31:08Rich Roll?

  That's the lens on everything.

• 1:31:09Light Watkins?

  Yeah, so that's, so naturally, it breeds empathy for people, white people, in different situations. But there are not that many stories about this so-called other, about brown people in space. No one's seen a movie about some black person on Neptune, you know, fighting with Matt Damon or something like that. And so, there's not, it's harder to relate to these other people if your, if your story is being told in every which way possible. And then these other people are saying, "Well, I'm just like you." And it's like, "Well, you know, okay." But I think what's happening now, which is great, is that Hollywood is telling more stories of other people.

• 1:31:53Light Watkins?

  And the more we hear those songs, the more we see those movies and television shows and narratives, the more people will start to relate to these brown and black people in all these different situations. And I think, I think probably that is going to bring us closer together faster than just telling someone, "Hey, I'm like you, and I have these, I'm human just like you, I have these, these dreams just like you." And then having them kind of use their imagination. We have to, we're a society, we have to actually see it, we have to feel the empathy in that situation, and then we, we kind of embody it in our life.

• 1:32:33Rich Roll?

  I know you did a, you did a podcast with Ava DuVernay. Did you, is that something that you talked about with her? I haven't listened to that.

• 1:32:39Light Watkins?

  Yeah, you know, she talked about, she's got this initiative called Array, where she is bringing more brown and black people to the crews of these films. And so, she's actually really passionate, because she's obviously a director, and she's done some wonderful work in documentaries and film. And but in in most of Hollywood productions, even if it's a black movie, the people behind the scenes are not mostly black.

• 1:33:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:09Light Watkins?

  And that can make a difference as well in the way that black people are filmed. Like literally director of photography may use different filters to bring out the beauty and and and all of the nuances of people with darker skin. And those kinds of considerations aren't usually made in in the executive suites of these studios. So the more diversity, and that's that's the big conversation now as well. It's the more diversity you have in the boardroom and the C suite in the production, the more valuable the product, the end result becomes because it's really speaking to more people. So you're you're able to do more of what you already want to do. Usually, which is make money and have influence and have impact.

• 1:33:53Light Watkins?

  You're able to do more of that by being more inclusive. So that was kind of her her general message.

• 1:33:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you're creating role models within those communities that lead to.

• 1:34:03Light Watkins?

  Other little kids wanting to dream to be a DP.

• 1:34:06Rich Roll?

  Exactly.

• 1:34:06Light Watkins?

  Yeah, or director, exactly.

• 1:34:08Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:34:08Light Watkins?

  And her story is awesome, man, because she didn't start directing.

• 1:34:12Rich Roll?

  She was like a publicist, right?

• 1:34:13Light Watkins?

  She was a publicist. She had a very successful publicist firm, a PR firm. And then when she was 32, she was on the set of Collateral with Tom Cruise and Jamie Foxx. And she said, you know, I could do this. Michael Mann was directing. She I could do this. And she started in her off time and her weekends, holidays. She started making these little short films. And then that cascaded into her making a first feature all self financed.

• 1:34:38Rich Roll?

  Curiosity, leading to tiny actions.

• 1:34:41Light Watkins?

  Took the leap of faith, exactly. But it started really small for her. And she was almost, she was like uniquely qualified to do the kind of work that she was doing. And that's. Just kind of going back to our original message is that's what I'm telling people is that you have some unique qualifications that only you can do and no one else in the world can do, but you have to follow the inner blueprint in order to unveil them for the world, right? It's like Ikea instructions, like it looks confusing when you first look at it, but if you just take it step by step by step and it all kind of comes together and only you can do it.

• 1:35:16Rich Roll?

  But the difference would be when you get the Ikea instructions, all the instructions are there.

• 1:35:21Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:22Rich Roll?

  So you could read through them all the way to the end, but in this case, you just get one instruction and you're told to trust that the next one, when you complete it, there will be another one.

• 1:35:29Light Watkins?

  Right, and it may not, you may get it underneath the toilet or you may get it on the roof.

• 1:35:34Rich Roll?

  And it might be in Swedish and you won't be able to read it.

• 1:35:35Light Watkins?

  Yeah, but you have to go to interpreter and that interpreter ends up being your fiance because you know, you have a connection and it's like, everything is so beautiful, it's almost like a beautiful.

• 1:35:44Rich Roll?

  It's a game.

• 1:35:45Light Watkins?

  Yeah, it's like a beautiful little game that all kind of comes together, puzzle.

• 1:35:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:35:50Light Watkins?

  But when you look back at the end of life, and that's what I love about what Steve Jobs said, you can't connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking back. When you look back at the end of life, everything kind of.

• 1:35:59Rich Roll?

  It's crazy how that works and the older I get.

• 1:36:01Light Watkins?

  Everything connects.

• 1:36:02Rich Roll?

  And I reflect back and I'm like, it all makes sense.

• 1:36:05Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:06Rich Roll?

  And when you're in it, it's utterly confusing and baffling.

• 1:36:09Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:10Rich Roll?

  And it makes no sense.

• 1:36:11Light Watkins?

  And you think you're the only one who's confused, but when you get older, you realize everybody's confused.

• 1:36:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:36:17Light Watkins?

  Nobody knows what they're doing.

• 1:36:18Rich Roll?

  Nobody.

• 1:36:19Light Watkins?

  And that's another great thing about the pandemic is it exposed the fact that even at the highest levels of government, nobody knew what they were doing.

• 1:36:26Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:36:27Light Watkins?

  You know, we're all just basically responding.

• 1:36:28Rich Roll?

  It's so disappointing, you're a kid, you just think like the adults, they know what they're doing, they're in control, they got it covered. I was talking to my daughter the other day and I was like, because she's 17 now and I was like, it must be so disappointing when you first realize like adults don't know shit.

• 1:36:45Light Watkins?

  She was laughing.

• 1:36:47Rich Roll?

  You know, because when you're 17, you think you know it all. Like, I didn't hit on that part of it. But, but you are developing an awareness that all these people that you thought had things managed, you know, there's a lot of fuck-ups out there too, right? And that, I think, fuels that adolescent or teenage, you know, sense that like you could do better. Which is great, because we need young people to feel that way. That gives them the energy to, you know, inherit culture and reshape it.

• 1:37:15Light Watkins?

  A hundred percent, man. And yeah, it's a beautiful system when you really step back and take a look at it. And, and everyone is necessary. Like, everyone's story counts, no matter what it is, right? Even if you don't end up doing anything that you consider to be remarkable, right? But you somehow share your life experience with someone else, that could trigger... I mean, a lot of these stories in this book are things I've heard from other people. Like the one, I don't know if you read the one about the bridge, the little note that was on the bridge.

• 1:37:46Rich Roll?

  No, I didn't read that one.

• 1:37:47Light Watkins?

  In Vancouver. So I was on a, um, I was coming from a wanderlust event where I was giving a talk in a Whistler, and then me and, and Gary Zukav, do you know who he is?

• 1:38:01Rich Roll?

  Uh-uh.

• 1:38:02Light Watkins?

  He wrote The Seed of the Soul.

• 1:38:03Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:38:05Light Watkins?

  Favorite spiritual books from back in the day. And he and I ended up being on the same speaking panel. I was so excited. Because I got to spend a lot of quality time with him, and then he and I were assigned to the same van to go back to the Vancouver airport. So we're in this van, and our flights are both at around the same time. And there's all this traffic, this unexpected traffic, going over the Lions... I think it's called the Lions Gate Bridge or something in Vancouver. And it looks like we're gonna miss our flight. So that's in the, in the conversation and in the atmosphere. You know, there's this little tension with these people who are like these spiritual people and whatnot. And we're just kind of inching along. We get to the very peak of the bridge, and I'm in the backseat,

• 1:38:48Light Watkins?

  and I'm just kind of like, you know, just kind of glancing around and looking, and I'm kind of feeling... I'm, I'm working the math on all the things I'm gonna miss because I'm gonna miss this flight, because I have another appointment and I have to, you know, rental car reservation, all this stuff.

• 1:39:03Light Watkins?

  And I just glanced over and then on the side of the bridge is this little, it looks like a little note card that's like taped very sloppily on the bridge. And this is handwritten thing scribbled on there. And I don't have the best eyesight. I can see well enough to like get by, but I got prescribed glasses when I was eight years old. Never wore them because I didn't want to have to be dependent on them for the rest of my life.

• 1:39:25Rich Roll?

  No way, get out? So you just walk around not being able to see well when you could just wear glasses?

• 1:39:29Light Watkins?

  I mean, I could see well enough. I could read signs and stuff, but sometimes it's a little blurry when I look at things closely. Anyway, I see this little message and I take my phone out because this is what I do when you can't see well. You take a picture of it and you enlarge it. And so I did that, took a picture of it and then put my phone back in. And later on, we, we barely, barely got to the airport. We barely made the flight. When I was sitting at the

• 1:40:00Rich Roll?

  What page are you on?

• 1:40:01Light Watkins?

  This is page 104. When I was sitting at the gate, I pulled out my phone and I found that I was just, you know how you just kill time? I'm looking through the camera roll. I almost forgot about that photo and I found it. And you see it's, it's actually on the right side. It's a really small thing. So you've got, you have to pull it close to see it because I wanted people to have that same effect.

• 1:40:21Rich Roll?

  I'm going, I'm trying to scroll with my fingers.

• 1:40:24Light Watkins?

  Yeah, right, me too. It says, "The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams." And I didn't know it at the time, but that's an Eleanor Roosevelt quote. But I started thinking like, what's the story behind like, who put that there? Was it for someone who may potentially want to jump from the bridge? Was it for cars? Like, was it for someone who was stuck in a traffic jam on their way back from Whistler to the airport? Who would take a picture of it and share it in their book? And use this story to inspire people to Make little gestures of kindness like that, you know, it's like.

• 1:41:07Rich Roll?

  It's a misery box.

• 1:41:08Light Watkins?

  Yeah, but it was just like, it was just like this beautiful moment that, again, if I was like, stuck in the misery of this potentially missed flight, I would not have had the space to capture that little thing. And whoever did it, I just, it's fascinating to me, like, they have no idea this is gonna be in a book that will potentially last forever.

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's crazy. That's like, you know, the butterfly that flaps its wings and, you know.

• 1:41:34Light Watkins?

  Changes the weather.

• 1:41:35Rich Roll?

  6,000 miles away. Yeah, it just, because it's not even like graffiti that's gonna be there. It's temporal, right? It's gonna, it's gonna rain and that'll wash away. But in the meantime, I suspect thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people drove across that bridge, never saw it.

• 1:41:51Light Watkins?

  Never saw it.

• 1:41:51Rich Roll?

  Or if they saw it, it didn't register. You might be the only person.

• 1:41:55Light Watkins?

  Maybe, that's what I'm saying.

• 1:41:57Rich Roll?

  That was impacted in any way by that gesture that was there for reasons we'll never understand. And now it's in a book and now we're talking about it on a podcast.

• 1:42:05Light Watkins?

  We're talking about it on one of the most popular podcasts.

• 1:42:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But I think it's, it is a lesson. It goes, it all goes back to awareness, right? If you're, you know, it's that thing of, you know, if you're bored, you're not paying attention because there's just all kinds of utterly fascinating and amazing things happening all around you. And there are certain people who are attuned to that frequency more than others. You know, I have friends, writers, you know, I'm thinking of a couple people right off the top of my head, who will share on Instagram stories. They're incredible storytellers and they can take the most insignificant tiny little thing and tell the most amazing story about it. And it's always this powerful reminder that there is nothing to be bored about if you are paying attention, right? And that's a beautiful illustration of that very powerful concept.

• 1:42:53Light Watkins?

  Yeah, yeah. There are no throwaway moments.

• 1:42:56Rich Roll?

  And what if all the billboards were replaced with messages like that?

• 1:43:00Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:01Rich Roll?

  What would society look like?

• 1:43:02Light Watkins?

  Yeah. But, you know, the, the way I found out it was an Eleanor Roosevelt quote was because I told the story, I wrote a daily dose inspiration email about it and then someone replied and said, "That's an Eleanor Roosevelt quote." And you know, so it's like a communal effort, like everyone, she's like, that person got an opportunity to connect that dot, right?

• 1:43:21Rich Roll?

  Right, or it was Eleanor Roosevelt's ghost.

• 1:43:23Light Watkins?

  Yeah, who knows what happened in that person's life and whoever else read it and so it's, it's uh, and these, these are curated from the ones who, the emails that got the most engagement, like the biggest. So these have already been focused.

• 1:43:40Rich Roll?

  Right, the book is like a five-year project.

• 1:43:42Light Watkins?

  Yeah, anthology of the greatest hits of the most impactful emails. So it's exciting to be able to share those with the world, because a lot of those just, that was one that just kind of came to me, you know, I was sitting on my couch at 11 o'clock at night. And it's just like, what the hell am I gonna write about for tomorrow?

• 1:44:01Rich Roll?

  And you're like, oh, this photo.

• 1:44:02Light Watkins?

  Oh, yeah, exactly. And it just, you know, and that's, that's, it's so.

• 1:44:06Rich Roll?

  And you give energy to these things and then they grow and, and they evolve and become something else entirely.

• 1:44:12Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and the way I'm measuring success is, someone hears that, or someone hears this podcast, and then they're out somewhere and they start to adopt this idea that there are no throwaway moments. And they see something that they capture, or they do something meaningful with, you know, for their own lives. And, um, and it just, there's the domino effect from that. You just never know where it's gonna go. But, you know, again, in hindsight, you can connect those dots and it's always, it always, it's like the, you know, the connect the dot books that we had when we were kids. Like, it always tells a beautiful, this beautiful image kind of appears that you never would have seen otherwise. And that's what's interesting to me about it.

• 1:44:50Rich Roll?

  Do you, uh, do you know Jedidiah Jenkins?

• 1:44:53Light Watkins?

  The name sounds familiar. Why does it sound familiar?

• 1:44:55Rich Roll?

  He's a wonderful writer. He's been on the podcast a couple times. He's one of those people that can spin an incredible story out of a seemingly banal event. And he does it with unbelievable consistency and it's what makes him such a wonderful writer. Like, he just has, he's touched in that way. But he just did this thing recently where...

• 1:45:16Rich Roll?

  I think it, I can't remember exactly how it started, but he was hiking somewhere in Griffith Park. And there are these caves that are in the canyon that are kind of off these trails. And he either found a box with a letter in it, in there, or he, and then that prompted him to then write a letter and put it in the box, or he put a different, I can't remember exactly the details of it. I'm sure I'm getting it wrong, but essentially, he ended up putting this like wooden box hidden in this cave and left a letter in it and encouraged people to try to find it and leave a letter there, like just say whatever you want. And it's another, it's a similar analogous kind of example of a social experiment in small gestures

• 1:45:58Rich Roll?

  that actually are kind of meaningful and profound.

• 1:46:02Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I want to look that up.

• 1:46:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:04Light Watkins?

  Another one of my inspirations is Humans of New York.

• 1:46:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:46:09Light Watkins?

  It's impossible to look at, look at those, those Instagram posts and not like

• 1:46:16Rich Roll?

  Be moved by it.

• 1:46:17Light Watkins?

  Get emotional, get teary eyed and just hearing people's just stories, you know, it's just all stories. Have you interviewed him before?

• 1:46:24Rich Roll?

  No, I'd love to, actually. I know he's done a couple of podcasts, but he's definitely on the list of people that I always wanted to have on the show.

• 1:46:32Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:33Rich Roll?

  I think he'd be great.

• 1:46:33Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:34Rich Roll?

  I think there's a craving and such a hunger for real stories, that level of honesty and authenticity that only comes with somebody like Brandon who can engender the level of trust where people feel comfortable sharing on that level. And people know the difference between artifice or some kind of performative version of that and the very real thing. And when you see, these are just average people walking down the street. They're not trying to, you know, gain followers or anything like that. They're just being honest about

• 1:47:05Light Watkins?

  And everybody has a story.

• 1:47:06Rich Roll?

  And there's a universality in that that we can all connect to. And that's what makes us feel closer to each other. And is a recipe, I think, you know, a curative recipe for so much of what ails us.

• 1:47:16Light Watkins?

  And I think that's our true wealth, you know, our life experience really is our true wealth. If we, if we can relate to it in a way that kind of gets us out of our own head or our own misery and allows us to be able to share it.

• 1:47:36Light Watkins?

  To help somebody else see things a little differently. Right, because I'm sure anybody really could write this accumulate these stories just from their own life. Most of the stories in here are my personal experiences and they're not. You know, I wouldn't consider them to be any more profound than anyone else's experiences. I was just paying attention a little differently in the way that was unique to me because of my life experience. But someone else like Brandon or whoever, you know, has essentially done the same thing or helped other people do it. And the way that they curate their story is, and again, Brandon talks about this. It took practice. He didn't just come off from the very first one.

• 1:48:16Rich Roll?

  He's been doing this for a very long time.

• 1:48:17Light Watkins?

  Yeah, he learned how to ask people questions in a way that draws out the best parts of their story. The most impactful parts of their story. And that takes practice. You learn from podcasting how to interview people in a way that draws out the best parts of the story.

• 1:48:32Rich Roll?

  Brandon, you know, I mean, it's, it's another example. You know, certainly this isn't something that he whiteboarded and thought this is going to be a great career path for me.

• 1:48:41Light Watkins?

  Right, I'll have a book out.

• 1:48:42Rich Roll?

  He was following his curiosity. He could have never predicted that it would hit this cultural nerve and that people would be so interested in it. And now it's like this huge thing. And when I look at your career, what you've written about in this book. I see somebody who is in this sort of dance with the muse. Who's in communion with curiosity and how that translates into actions that you take or decisions that you make. And it's a far cry from this more mainstream paradigm of like, what is your goal? Like, what's the vision? Like, what are you working towards? Like, you know, where's this all headed light? Like, what, you know?

• 1:49:25Rich Roll?

  I don't really operate like that and I do, you know, I guessed on podcasts, I get asked that question. Like, what do you, where do you see yourself in five years? And I've, I've caught myself like trying to answer in the way that. I see other people answering it and then I have to check myself because it's like I don't, I honestly don't think about that at all. I'm literally just, what's the next cool thing that I could do that gets me excited to get out of bed? And I'm in a fortunate position where I have my needs met and I can entertain those kinds of ideas. But I got to this point by doubling down on that as opposed to, you know, being very, you know, tactical or, you know, planning out these things. Right. I mean, you, this is how you're operating.

• 1:50:09Light Watkins?

  You never would have imagined.

• 1:50:10Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:50:11Light Watkins?

  That this conversation.

• 1:50:13Rich Roll?

  And if I'd set this as a goal, I would have missed the mark by a thousand miles because I would have missed out on why it got here, which was because, you know, I just made the decision to do what interested me as opposed to what seemed to make sense, I guess.

• 1:50:30Light Watkins?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:31Rich Roll?

  So I'm like throwing that back at you.

• 1:50:34Light Watkins?

  Yeah, I'm the same. I mean, I, again, just, I think the best thing I ever did in my life was following the guidance to quit my first real, quote unquote, real job when I was fresh out of college. That was like the best thing I ever did. Because I, I realized that what we've been taught by society about what you need to do is not the real story because that's where my adventure kind of, you know, that's how I opened the book is telling that story. And the reason why I did it, and I didn't have language for it at the time, but I just kind of looked around and it was a great job. It was a great agency. Everyone was really wonderful, beautiful, nice people, you know, no drama.

• 1:51:18Light Watkins?

  I looked forward to going there. I would be the first there to arrive and usually the last to leave. But I, at the same time, I looked at the people who had achieved the most at that place. And I didn't really feel like anybody was fulfilled in the way that I ultimately saw myself wanting to be fulfilled. And so I, I said, okay, well, this is where this goes, you know, and then that's a, that's a process that I've kind of applied to other things. If you are in a space. With people and you're thinking of investing your time into that, whatever that space is about. Look at the people who've been there the longest, who've achieved the most, and ask yourself, are they where you want to be? Where you see yourself being?

• 1:52:02Light Watkins?

  And if so, then that's probably where your path is leading you. If not, then that's probably not your path. And it doesn't really matter what the external rewards of being in that space are. It's really about what you feel about them inside. And so, we talked about this on the last podcast. It's like when I, many years later, when I came across my meditation teacher, Tom Knowles, like, he embodied, for me, he embodied that state of fulfillment that I had been looking for, without realizing that that's what I was looking for. And immediately, I knew that's my, that's the next milestone, is to learn this thing, to help other people in the way that I'm being helped. Because it always came, it came back to service.

• 1:52:44Light Watkins?

  That's how I kind of knew that that was really my path. And I didn't, there was no, there was no, um, this is 2003, so there's no teacher trainings or anything like that. And I wrote about this in the book. So I just had to trust that it was going to lead in that direction. I just kept coming back and showing up and helping out. And then eventually, many years later, he invited me and some other of his proteges to go to India and train us to become teachers. And that really set me off in a completely different direction from where I was before. But there was this trust that I had that developed, and I was very intentional about it. I remember being 29 years old in my kitchen in Harlem, and saying to myself, "I'm going to follow my heart, no matter what."

• 1:53:29Light Watkins?

  And, um, after watching a Chris Rock movie.

• 1:53:35Rich Roll?

  Takes what it takes, man. No, that's, that story is where you talk about this idea of wiggle room. Like, even if you feel like you're on a good path for yourself, like, not holding on too tightly to it, and always making room to be malleable.

• 1:53:52Light Watkins?

  To be inspired.

• 1:53:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so that you can be available for the magical opportunity of going to India, you know, in the case of your story.

• 1:54:01Light Watkins?

  And it's not about, you know, because some people may look at the, hear that and go, "Well, that's just you not committing to whatever you said you were going to do." Right? And, and I would, I would refine that and say, what's really... Your feeling about your path, whatever that is, whether you have language for it or not, is always going to be there. But the day-to-day plans may change about how you get there, or what occupation, or what family lifestyle choices you have to go through in order to get there. And so that's where you want to be malleable and be open to inspiration, not in questioning the ultimate goal or plan. You really can't go wrong if you just keep following whatever you're feeling inside.

• 1:54:43Rich Roll?

  Sure, but you also can't expect to be smiled upon by perhaps your peers and your colleagues.

• 1:54:49Light Watkins?

  No, it takes you completely away from social proof.

• 1:54:52Rich Roll?

  You're going to look like a dilettante. You know what I mean? Like, oh, this guy just goes from one thing to the next. You can't really stick with anything. Did you read David Epstein's book, Range?

• 1:55:03Light Watkins?

  No.

• 1:55:04Rich Roll?

  So it's a very interesting kind of study of a variety of people who have excelled in different fields, from science and education to athletics and art, et cetera. And it belies this sort of Malcolm Gladwell myth of the 10,000-hour rule and demonstrates that there are those people, of course, the Tiger Woodses and people like that. But by and large, most people who are fully expressed and excelling at the highest level of their specialized field are people who earlier in life did lots of different stuff and were the people who just really couldn't commit to anything.

• 1:55:45Rich Roll?

  And as a result, they develop this robustness of experience that, back to that idea of in retrospect, all the dots line up, make perfect sense with where they end up. But they're people of varied interests and many different passions who develop that capacity early to be malleable and flexible, to have that wiggle room. And it's those people that we look at now as lazy dilettantes, who ultimately, it's reframing that and saying, well, and you talk about this, like, how do you suspend judgment in the book? Maybe they're like, we should look at this a little bit differently. Perhaps they're in their exploratory phase, and they're going to be magnificent and amazing

• 1:56:27Rich Roll?

  and world-changing and something that they finally latch on to later in life.

• 1:56:31Light Watkins?

  Yeah, there is a story in there about how I talk about leaving that first job for the reasons that I left. And... And then while I was writing, I remember the day I wrote that story, I was in Airbnb, I think I was in London, living out of a backpack, didn't own anything, still don't own anything. I've got a little money saved up, but I had less saved up at the time. And I was like, you know, compared to my peers, I don't really, I haven't succeeded. I haven't really done anything, you know, that led to the material success that we kind of aspire towards today. But I've never felt more fulfilled. And I realized that the true wealth is the fulfillment inside, right?

• 1:57:14Light Watkins?

  And that's, again, this is a living experiment.

• 1:57:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:57:18Light Watkins?

  And it's not that I'm like walking around beaming all the time because I feel fulfilled inside. That's not really what, what we're talking about. It's just, it's having a inner security that wherever you are is where you're supposed to be. And if that means you get challenged in certain ways, then that challenge is there for you to learn something new about yourself. And that new thing that you learn is going to add to the feeling tone of fulfillment, right? And so that's the underlying message of this whole path is your path is not leading you to more success or more comfort, it's leading you to know yourself better. And ultimately to feel your connection with other people. And that could be a very, very treacherous path at some points.

• 1:58:01Light Watkins?

  It could be incredibly uncomfortable at other points. But the happiness that people tend to look for outside in success is much more temporal compared to what you can feel inside while you're going through all of those other moments and obstacles in life.

• 1:58:19Rich Roll?

  Beautifully put, man. You really stuck the landing. I'm like, it's not gonna get better than that. Like, we should just end it right here. But there is one thing I want to do before I let you go.

• 1:58:29Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:31Rich Roll?

  And I think this is like, specific to anybody who might be questioning the efficacy of meditation. This beautiful passage from the book, and for those who are following along at home with their own copy, can find on page 80. It's called "So Gullible." I love this, man. I love this passage. So, can I read it?

• 1:58:51Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:52Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna read it.

• 1:58:53Light Watkins?

  Love that.

• 1:58:54Rich Roll?

  "So gullible. People think meditation makes you gullible, but it's actually stress that makes you gullible. Stress makes you crave french fries, cookies, and wine. Stress makes you come up with important sounding excuses about why you can't exercise. Stress makes you think the reason you're tossing and turning at night is because you don't have the right mattress. Stress keeps you locked in codependent relationships with emotionally unavailable partners. Stress makes you say and do foolish things you have to apologize for later. Stress even makes you think you're incapable of meditating because your mind is too busy. Meanwhile, meditation makes you bold. Meditation makes it really hard to put up with someone else's be-yes. Meditation makes it almost impossible to remain at a dead-end job or in a bad relationship.

• 1:59:37Rich Roll?

  Meditation makes you stand up for others and follow your heart with no fallback plan. Meditation allows you to be guided by your intuition instead of your fear. Meditation helps you accept others and let go of the need to control. Meditation helps you sleep like a baby, even though you don't have it all figured out." While I'm reading that, you know where my head was the whole time? I'm like, "Why am I reading this? I should've asked Light to read this, you idiot. It's his book."

• 2:00:07Light Watkins?

  I loved hearing it, though. Such a nice experience for me to hear someone else... Because, you know, it's like, you live with this stuff, and to hear someone else say it in their own words, it's like, it's a really beautiful experience for me. So, thank you for gifting me with that.

• 2:00:20Rich Roll?

  This is your post-it note on the bridge.

• 2:00:22Light Watkins?

  Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

• 2:00:25Rich Roll?

  It's great, man. I love that. It just breaks it down into very practical brass tacks and...

• 2:00:31Rich Roll?

  Removes all the excuses that we have.

• 2:00:34Light Watkins?

  Yeah, and hopefully it helps other people who come across this work just look at things or consider things a little differently, like meditation or whatever it is that they're questioning, and find the solution within their own life experience.

• 2:00:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think the book, beautifully written, all these stories, etc., they're all prompts. This is just a catalyst to get you to reflect upon these ideas a little bit more. You're not saying, "Here's your listicle. This is how you're going to solve this problem." It's like, "Maybe look at it this way, and then circle back to me in a year."

• 2:01:16Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:17Rich Roll?

  Well, congrats on the book. It's a beautiful thing. Everybody should check it out immediately. Knowing where to look with the "where" upside down on the page to play a little optical trick on you. A little optical tricks play out throughout the book, available at your favorite independent bookstore and on Amazon, of course, and at lightwalkins.com. Anything else you want to leave people with?

• 2:01:42Light Watkins?

  Continue to follow your heart and take leaps of faith. And I believe in you.

• 2:01:51Rich Roll?

  I appreciate you, man.

• 2:01:53Light Watkins?

  Thank you.

• 2:01:53Rich Roll?

  The world is a better place with you in it. I'm at your service. If there's anything I can do to help you or help advance your work, I hope you'll reach out to me.

• 2:02:03Light Watkins?

  Thank you, I will.

• 2:02:03Rich Roll?

  Cool. Peace, man. Come back and talk to me again.

• 2:02:06Light Watkins?

  I will.

• 2:02:06Rich Roll?

  For round four, right? This is our third one.

• 2:02:09Light Watkins?

  This is the third one, yeah.

• 2:02:09Rich Roll?

  All right, we'll do four soon.

• 2:02:11Light Watkins?

  Yeah.

• 2:02:11Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:02:12Light Watkins?

  Thanks.

• 2:02:12Rich Roll?

  Lance.

• 2:02:13Light Watkins?

  Namaste.

• 2:02:17Rich Roll?

  Do a handstand, it's the most spiritual pose.

• 2:02:20Light Watkins?

  Right? That was awesome, man.

• 2:02:22Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 2:02:35Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review

• 2:03:17Rich Roll?

  and/or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated, and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, The Meal Planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Kale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media

• 2:04:00Rich Roll?

  assets courtesy of Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon.

• 2:04:20Rich Roll?

  Peace. France. Namaste.