Fueling Performance With Play: Ultra-Runner Mike Wardian On Crushing World Records & Work-Life Balance

Meet ultra-legend Mike Wardian. From running seven marathons in seven days on seven continents to running across America, Mike has accomplished a staggering amount as a runner over the years. He holds FKTs all over the globe from D. C. to Israel, and won a 100k world championship silver medal. And he’s done all of this while holding a full-time day job and spending time with his wife and young children. In today’s conversation, we dive deep into Mike’s unique relationship with running, setting his world records, his experience running across America, and how he balances all of his athletic accomplishments with his responsibilities. We also talk about how his hobbies, like pickleball, chess, cycling, and CrossFit, complement his endurance training. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Seed: seed.com/RICHROLL Thesis: takethesis.com/RICHROLL Momentous: LiveMomentous.com/richroll BetterHelp: BetterHelp.com/richroll ROKA: roka.com Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  There's so many people that I see, like, wait to do something big, and then something gets in the way, or they don't have the health to do it anymore. And like, seize the opportunity, seize the moment, because you never know what's going to happen.

• 1:31Rich Roll?

  Runners assemble, because on the show today is a 217 marathoner, a world record holder, a transcon finisher, and quarantine backyard ultra-winner, Mr. Mike Wardian.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  I want to showcase for people that it is possible. I didn't come from a big endurance background. I didn't know any of these things when I first started.

• 1:52Rich Roll?

  Mike has accomplished a staggering amount as a runner over the years. He's run seven marathons in seven days on seven continents, for which he set the world record. He ran across America. He holds FKTs all over the globe, from DC to Israel. He even completed a race, wearing a Spider-Man costume. And, oh yeah, he's done all of this while holding a full-time day job and spending time with his wife and young children.

• 2:18Speaker 01

  And so like, I hope when people see me now, they're like, well, if that dude with like, the family and the job and, you know, all these other commitments can do it, like, maybe I can do it too.

• 2:29Rich Roll?

  In today's conversation, we discuss how he started running. We talk about setting world records, his experiences running across America, and how he balances all of his hobbies and his athletic accomplishments with his family and his full-time job. And it's coming right up, but first.

• 2:52Rich Roll?

  Okay, it's an absolute pleasure to have Mike on the show. He's super fun to talk to. I'm grateful he made the time to come sit down with me. And I hope this episode gives you wisdom and practical tools regarding endurance, motivation, time management, and just being a lifelong learner.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  You don't have to go fast. You just have to keep going and you have to want to keep going. If you, you know, keep doing the little things, the big things happen.

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  This is me and Mike Wardian.

• 3:21Rich Roll?

  Right on. Well, let's just get into it. Super nice to have you here. I'm so excited to talk to you.

• 3:26Speaker 01

  Thanks.

• 3:27Rich Roll?

  I don't even know where to begin. Like, your resume is so ridiculous. Like, there's no way we can go through, like, all of the crazy accomplishments. So we're gonna try to just, I don't know, feel our way through this. But I want to begin with DC. I'm from DC.

• 3:41Speaker 01

  I know.

• 3:43Rich Roll?

  And you live in Arlington. Are you from there? Your parents live there, right?

• 3:46Speaker 01

  Uh, my parents are from Oakton, so a little bit further out. And you're from across the river, I think.

• 3:54Rich Roll?

  I grew up in Bethesda.

• 3:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was just in Bethesda last night.

• 3:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. I mean, Bethesda now is like a city compared to when I lived there. Like, when I was going to school there, it was before the subway even had made its way out there yet.

• 4:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like that's like the Red Line, maybe?

• 4:11Rich Roll?

  I don't even know. My parents live in Georgetown now. They moved to the fun part of town after I went away to college.

• 4:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, that is a really nice part of town.

• 4:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but it's a great running city.

• 4:21Speaker 01

  It's such a good city, yeah, for running. But I guess you weren't running then, right?

• 4:25Rich Roll?

  No.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  You were just swimming all the time.

• 4:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I was swimming. Running came later. But I always enjoy when I go back to DC. I mean, I stay with my parents in Georgetown and then I can get right down onto the tow path.

• 4:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:40Rich Roll?

  Do the loop around the bridges or hit Rock Creek State Park, all of your kind of background stomping grounds.

• 4:46Speaker 01

  Right. Well, and I would suggest, one, the next time you're there, it's a thing called the Potomac Heritage Trail, which I don't know if you've ever been on.

• 4:53Rich Roll?

  I don't think so. Maybe.

• 4:54Speaker 01

  No, you would know. So it's pretty awesome. So you can go right across Key Bridge, loop down to Roosevelt Island.

• 5:02Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  And then you just go along the river and there's a trail that goes all the way out to like Haynes Point.

• 5:07Rich Roll?

  I've gone out like around Haynes Point.

• 5:09Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  But that's actually a little bit different. Yeah. So like, that's if you like kind of stuck on the bike trails. But this is like dirt and there's like waterfalls and like roots and rocks and like.

• 5:22Rich Roll?

  Oh shit.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  It's fantastic.

• 5:24Rich Roll?

  I definitely haven't done that.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. It's one of my favorite runs in the world and it's right there, right across the bridge from Georgetown.

• 5:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, you'll have to provide me that route so I can.

• 5:36Speaker 01

  Oh my God. I'm happy to take you too.

• 5:40Rich Roll?

  One of the things that I think is so interesting and distinctive about who you are and what you do is that you combine so many disciplines. I mean, it's one thing to be an elite athlete at the top of sport. It's another thing to, you know, kind of go off and do FKTs and all these sort of stunt-y sort of things that you do. But then on top of that, also to have like a robust professional career and have kids and a family. Like combining all of these things seems so Herculean, like such a monumental task. And you seem to do it with a lot of like grace and ease. So before we even get into like all the accomplishments, like how do you, you know, how does that jigsaw puzzle work for you?

• 6:25Speaker 01

  Uh, I, I think, I think the biggest thing is I really wanna do it. Like, I, I, I feel like I've always wanted to kind of meet my obligations and, and still like chase these like big audacious dreams and goals. And so I think if, if you don't wanna do it, like it's, it's almost impossible to do it. And, and I think a lot of people come up with reasons why they can't do something. And I look for more reasons why you can do something. And so like, for me, I, I don't know if it's the same with you, but like every time you like went to the next level, you know, you'd always have people that were like, oh, you can't do it because of this or this. Like, I remember when my wife and I got engaged, like all my running friends were like, oh, your running is gonna go downhill.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it's, it's, it's for sure. Like, you're not gonna have as much time to train with us anymore. And, and it only got better from there. And like the same with like, when you have kids, it's like, oh, as soon as you have kids, like you're not gonna be able to be here. And, and then I'd rock up with like two kids in a Bob stroller. And we'd be running like six thirties, you know, 10 mile run around the monuments or whatever. And that's just, you know, how, how you gotta get it done. If you wanna do these things, like you have to put your head down. And, and for me, it was like, you know, getting up early, um, and then figuring out ways to like, I knew I had to go to work every day. So like, instead of driving, I started bike commuting.

• 7:48Speaker 01

  And then from there, I started run commuting. Um, and then I just wanted to make it happen.

• 7:55Rich Roll?

  Finding the solutions, always looking for the solutions. But when you're, when you're, like, when you're plotting some, you know, audacious goal, like running across the United States, et cetera. I mean, obviously that's a family decision, right? Like, how does that look? You sit down with your wife and you're like, here's what I wanna do.

• 8:13Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. So I, I, and my wife's Jennifer and she's amazing. Um, but, you know, first, I mean, there's so many different aspects to go into that. And originally it does come down to that, like, hey, I wanna. I want to chase this thing, you know, when would be a good time to do it and like, and you probably know this because you've talked to a lot of people because I've listened to all your conversations to people that have done this. And you know, usually the best time of year is like March or maybe late February or like end of August, September. And like for me, like with work, it just doesn't work. Like the end of the cargo fiscal year is September. Like that's when the government does all their business that they're going to do.

• 8:54Speaker 01

  Uh, and they got to spend all their money. So I can't do like August, September because I just don't have enough time. And then the kids' spring break was in August, or I'm sorry, in April. And so she's like, well, you can't miss spring break. So like my time was when I get back from spring break with the kids until I'm done. Right? So like, we looked at that and then I had to cycle back like a year from that. And then I had to hire somebody for our company that I work for.

• 9:23Rich Roll?

  To cover for you.

• 9:24Speaker 01

  To cover for me.

• 9:25Rich Roll?

  I was wondering like how, like, I know you're a partner in international.

• 9:29Speaker 01

  Shipping.

• 9:30Rich Roll?

  Shipping brokerage maritime. Like, I don't even know what that is. It sounds very Jason Bourne.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Yes. Import export.

• 9:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Like, oh, okay. What's actually happening here?

• 9:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. No.

• 9:42Rich Roll?

  In DC, you know.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 9:44Rich Roll?

  Approximate to the CIA. Like, you know, my conspiracy mind is.

• 9:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I have a lot of passport stamps. Um, no, it's, um, so we do humanitarian food aid shipments. Um, so if you ever see stuff for like World Vision, um, Save the Children, Food for the Hungry, uh, those type of programs. And we do, um, shipments from the US and it's kind of export, um, additional grains that are coming from the farmers that are being shipped overseas. And they're used for like feeding programs or monetization.

• 10:16Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 10:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's really cool. And it's a job that I kind of started. Really at the bottom, like as the secretary, um, kind of like get your foot in the door, go for like running around, like getting people sandwiches and then kind of worked my way up and now I'm one of the owners of the business.

• 10:33Rich Roll?

  That's cool. And they're cool with you like going off on these tangents every once in a while, as long as somebody can cover your workload in your absence.

• 10:41Speaker 01

  Well, and I was actually working from the road too. So like, you know, there were a couple of days where I'd come in after running for like 20 miles and it'd be like, oh, I gotta knock some, you know, deadline out or something.

• 10:52Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Which was, was definitely stressful at times, but it was, you know, that's, if you want to do the thing, you know, you gotta, you gotta be prepared to do the work.

• 11:03Rich Roll?

  Sure. So it makes sense now that you raised money on your TransCon run for World Vision.

• 11:10Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 11:10Rich Roll?

  Given that that's your sort of dovetails into your career. And I know Josh, your manager, who's here right now, like he's been involved with World Vision forever.

• 11:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, he really has. And it's, it's cool because I got involved with them maybe 2017. One of the things I did was I ran seven marathons, seven days on seven continents.

• 11:29Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  And if you won that, you got, uh, $15,000. And I was like, oh, awesome. You know, like I can use this to help, you know, offset the cost or whatever. And they're like, it's for charity. And I was like, oh, okay. Even, even better. I can use that to do some good. And so, um, that's when I first got involved with World Vision. I donated that money to World Vision then, and I saw what a good job they did with it. And I was like, hey, if I'm going to run across the country, I'd like to do it for, you know, a good cause.

• 11:56Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 11:56Speaker 01

  And we were able to raise, I think, over a hundred and 20,000 dollars for World Vision clean water projects around the world.

• 12:04Rich Roll?

  Amazing.

• 12:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's so cool. Yeah.

• 12:07Rich Roll?

  Well, I want to get into the TransCon, but before we do that, let's sort of backtrack a little bit. And looking at your resume, I mean, it's so overwhelming, all the things that you've done. 2008, 2009, 2010, US 50K champion, 2008, US 100K.

• 12:22Rich Roll?

  Champion, 50 mile champion for the US in 2011. I mean, there's so many like wins and like all this crazy stuff, Gobi Desert, 400K. Then you did the 10 marathons in 10 days on all seven continents. You have the, do you still have the record for the seven marathons on seven continents?

• 12:41Speaker 01

  I do. Yeah, I do for now.

• 12:43Rich Roll?

  You're averaging like 245s or something like that?

• 12:46Speaker 01

  I think I did, yeah. Including like I have the record in Antarctica for the fastest marathon ever run in Antarctica. It was like 2 hours, 54 minutes.

• 12:56Rich Roll?

  How do you even do that? Is there a road? Like, what does that look like?

• 12:59Speaker 01

  Dude, it was so crazy. So I didn't know. So we flew down there to Union Glacier. And it's actually surprisingly like Antarctica is at elevation. So you're kind of at like 3,000 feet, which for a lot of elite athletes, that's not that high. But for coming from DC, like that's kind of high for me. And it was a Chilean camp. ALE was the name of the company. And basically they had like a 10K track that they had plowed around the campus. And so it was kind of groomed, um, snow, but hard packed snow and ice.

• 13:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 13:39Speaker 01

  Uh, and it was pretty flat until you got to the last like 3K. And then it like went down this like dip and then it was like straight uphill to the start finish area. So you just did that kind of like four times.

• 13:54Rich Roll?

  And do you have to, do you have to put spikes on your shoes or do you wear a normal like trail shoe?

• 13:59Speaker 01

  Actually, yeah, that was a really good, like, so I had all those questions too. And I wore a normal, I run for Hoka, so I ran in the Hoka Stinson at that time. It was 2017. And the second time I ran in 2019, I ran in the Evo Mafadi, which is a trail shoe. So basically just a regular trail shoe.

• 14:19Rich Roll?

  And when you fly in, do you have to then wait until the weather breaks and find your window?

• 14:25Speaker 01

  Uh, pretty much they look for a window, weather window. And so you kind of muster. And the first time it was in Punta Arenas in Chile. And then we flew in and the second time it was in Cape Town.

• 14:36Rich Roll?

  And when you look at the record, is it, is it, is the record established based upon how fast you run these seven marathons? Or is it the total elapsed time to do all seven? Like the travel in between and all of that and like knocking them out as quickly as possible?

• 14:53Speaker 01

  So the record in Antarctica was just on that one leg. And then the total time is the time for each race, I think.

• 15:00Rich Roll?

  I see.

• 15:01Speaker 01

  The way that it's done, because like you wouldn't know like when you're gonna, you basically still have to finish all in, I think it's 168 hours, maybe is seven days. And you still have to finish it all within 168 hours. But like, if you get a bad connection or something, I don't think they'd want to take that away.

• 15:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I got you.

• 15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:19Rich Roll?

  Where does all of this begin? Because you didn't start off as a high school track and field athlete or anything like that, right?

• 15:27Speaker 01

  No, not at all. I didn't have that kind of background at all. I grew up playing a sport called lacrosse, which you know is-

• 15:33Rich Roll?

  A sport called lacrosse. Yeah, for a lot of people, I guess, don't know. Yeah.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 15:37Rich Roll?

  I mean, growing up where we grew up, that's what kids did.

• 15:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it still wasn't one of the most popular sports. I'd still say football and baseball and even soccer was probably more popular. But now it's like, you know, there's a professional lacrosse league.

• 15:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Paul Rabel.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Yeah, dude.

• 15:53Rich Roll?

  Started that league.

• 15:54Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah. He's a stud.

• 15:56Rich Roll?

  It's cool what he's created. It'll be interesting to see whether it can truly capture American audience fascination.

• 16:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:05Rich Roll?

  But they're on like network TV now, the games and everything. And they've really, him and his brother have done a lot.

• 16:11Speaker 01

  They really have. Yeah. And what's cool is like, when I was growing up, like if you wanted to see lacrosse, you'd have to get maybe ESPN2. It'd be like 1 o'clock in the morning and I'd be like going down and putting the VCR tape in to like watch Syracuse play like, you know, Cornell or something.

• 16:26Rich Roll?

  But you played Division One collegiate lacrosse at Michigan State?

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 16:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, and so that was my dream growing up was to play Division One and to just see how good I could get at the sport. And Michigan State, I'd say it was Division One, but it was kind of like not the top tier. So, you know, I wasn't playing at Hopkins or Syracuse or Duke or UVA.

• 16:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 16:51Speaker 01

  Or Princeton even at that time was really good. And I got recruited to play in Denver, but like Denver wasn't even big then.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  But it was it was a kind of a similar story to you in that like I got recruited, but I didn't get like I wasn't like getting money because there was like one scholarship that they split like a couple of different ways, right? So like it was it was it was a big deal to go away and play. And for me, it was kind of a dream come true. But I also knew like, you know, eventually that, you know, I'm not going to make a million dollars playing lacrosse. So

• 17:27Rich Roll?

  So so you your career and that chapter closes. And how and when does running enter the picture?

• 17:35Speaker 01

  It entered my junior year of college. So I joined a fraternity, Pikes, I don't know, like, it was whatever. It was fine. And I had a bunch of fraternity brothers. I went to my buddy Vince Boyson's house and was sitting at Easter dinner and his mom, Vicki Boyson, had just come back from the Boston Marathon and she had like the crinkly little blanket and the unicorn medal. And it was the first time that I had ever like met a real person that had done a marathon. And I was just like, man, if Vince's mom can run a marathon, I can run a marathon. And that was the time when I knew like that moment changed my life. Like, it was like one of those seminal moments where you're

• 18:18Speaker 01

  just like, I don't know, there's so many like split second decisions that can change people's lives. And that was the moment for me where I was like, I'm gonna do this thing. And little did I know that, you know, I'd end up, you know, having all these experiences from that one interaction.

• 18:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, tell me more about that because somebody else could have had that experience of meeting their friend's mom and just been like, that's cool, and moved on with their life. But for some reason, a switch got flicked in you, like something got lit up.

• 18:47Speaker 01

  Totally. And I think it was because I had started running, like when I stopped playing lacrosse and Vince and I were like working out and I was getting strong and I was like starting to run like, you know, 5K around campus. And then like, every now and then I'd run like, I think I could run, you know, to like the dairy part of campus, which is like 10 miles. And I would just go and run and then I'd be like, wow, I can't believe I made it that far and didn't need to like stop or like take a bike back or whatever. And so when I was like, oh, I'm gonna try to do this thing. But I was like, you know, that's one of those like lifelong goal type things where you you keep saying it, but you're not sure when it's actually gonna happen. And then it kind of

• 19:31Speaker 01

  crystallized where I was like, oh, Vince's mom can do it. I can do it. And so like, I hope when people see me now, they're like, well, if that dude with like, the family and the job and, you know, all these other commitments can do it, like, maybe I can do it, too.

• 19:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that does does seem like a very authentic driver for you. Like, your motivation really is to share your experiences for the purpose of of inspiring other people to realize like, these things are within their grasp.

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I hope so. I mean, I think like, sometimes the things that I do, like, people are like, oh, man, yeah, I mean, you get this, too. It's like, there's no, I don't even like driving that far, like, or, you know, that's not me, or I'm not built that way. And I hopefully, people can see what we do and say like, well, maybe it's not at that level now, but eventually it could be, or like, this is a chance to get motivated to start to do something more than I am now.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I feel like it cuts both ways. On the one hand, you go off and do something so insane, people can say, well, he's got all this stuff going on and heated that. So I can at least do this.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:40Rich Roll?

  But I think at the same time, it also makes it easier for people to completely dismiss you as some kind of insane outlier and just say, well, he's, you know, he's wackadoodle. Like, that's, you know, like,

• 20:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 20:51Rich Roll?

  A normal person can't do that. There's obviously something, you know, very different about this person.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Right. But I think, like so many people, like, I didn't start out that way, right? Like, I started out like, oh, I want to run a marathon. Like, I don't know why I didn't start out like, oh, I should want to run a 10K or 5K or something, because I probably didn't even know that those existed. But when you do have that kind of impetus to get started, like, it quickly can snowball.

• 21:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you sign up for your first marathon?

• 21:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:21Rich Roll?

  Marine Corps? Or which one did you do?

• 21:23Speaker 01

  It was Marine Corps.

• 21:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 21:24Speaker 01

  Well, so I did the MS half marathon first, because I was like, well,

• 21:30Speaker 01

  Actually, I guess stepping back, at Michigan State, I did a half marathon in a indoor track, like a one-eighth of a mile track in the middle of winter because it was on my schedule. Because I, going back, like I said to Vince's mom, hey, you know, it'd be great if you could, you know, help me. And she was like, okay, sure. And she basically just went and took a book, like Training for Your First Marathon, and photocopied it. And so it was like, it had, you know, one of those old schedules. It was like, Monday, run five miles, Tuesday, run six miles. And it was like a 40-week build or something. And so whatever it said, I just did. And so when it got to like, the half marathon

• 22:10Speaker 01

  day, it was dumping snow at Michigan State. And I was like, okay, well, I'm gonna do my run. I don't want to do it in negative, you know, 20-degree temperatures. So I just went to this indoor track. And I got my buddy Jason to run with me. And we literally like, I think I ran for like, two hours or something around this eighth of a track. And I was like, if I can do that, I can do the marathon. And so then signed up for Marine Corps when I got out of school and did it. With the goal of like, I guess, what I wanted to do was run the Boston Marathon. So like, when I sent away to Boston, like, at the time, there was no internet. You sent them like, a self-addressed stamped envelope. And they

• 22:52Speaker 01

  sent me back the, like, little pamphlet and said, like, what's your qualifying time? And that's when I was like, oh crap, like, I don't have that.

• 23:00Rich Roll?

  You can't just sign up?

• 23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, you can't just sign up. I was like, wait, what? And so that's when I signed up for Marine Corps.

• 23:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you do Marine Corps. So did you qualify for Boston in your first marathon?

• 23:09Speaker 01

  I did, yeah.

• 23:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  So I knew I had to run three hours and 10 minutes. And so I was like, okay, fine, I'm gonna run three hours and 10 minutes. Not knowing if I could or not. But I figured, if it goes really bad at Marine Corps, my parents can come and get me on the side of the course. And I still remember so vividly, like, coming into the last mile. At like three hours and I was like, I have 10 minutes to go a mile. I was like, no problem. Like I can do this in my sleep. And then I remember, I don't, have you ever run Marine Corps?

• 23:38Rich Roll?

  No.

• 23:39Speaker 01

  Okay, so like-

• 23:40Rich Roll?

  I did like when I was a kid in high school, I think I did the, the 10K on the same course that they would have, or the 10 miler or something like that.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  Okay, cool. So like you know, like the finish is like kind of uphill and it used to go like you had to go all the way around Iwo Jima Memorial.

• 23:55Rich Roll?

  I just remember it finishes around that memorial.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So with like 10 minutes to go, I'm like, oh, I got this like so easy. And then I just remember it being like, okay, like where's the 26 mile marker? And then at like 3:06, I was like, oh, I can see it. And then I was like, oh no, I have to go all the way around. And I just remember cursing that point too, like being like, oh, that should only be like a minute and it being like two and a half minutes. And so I did qualify, but it was a lot tighter than I expected. And like, I went like totally in just like lacrosse shorts and like a cotton t-shirt. And like no lube, no taping, no, you know, just chafed all the, you know, everything.

• 24:38Rich Roll?

  But all in. You run Boston and you know, I garner from that, that you know, this is, this is like, oh, this is going to be my path now.

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was actually pretty quickly. Like I, I went to Boston with the goal of like breaking three hours because I quickly like, determined that if you want to be a real runner, you should be able to break three hours. And I don't know why that was like an arbitrary goal. Like as a 22 year old kid, I thought that meant something. But yeah, I, I went with the goal of breaking three hours and I think I ran 254 or so. So I was, you know, pretty much under where I wanted to be. But the thing about it was, is just Boston just struck me like the energy, the vibe, like I think you've been there before.

• 25:24Rich Roll?

  No, I haven't actually.

• 25:26Speaker 01

  Wait, what?

• 25:26Rich Roll?

  I've never seen it. Yeah.

• 25:28Speaker 01

  Oh, man. We gotta, yeah, you should, you should do that.

• 25:31Rich Roll?

  I've witnessed the New York marathon, New York City marathon, but never Boston.

• 25:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, New York's amazing. Boston is like, oh, it's, it's even, I mean, they're, they're on par with each other. So you kind of have that experience. But like, I just remember like the little kids with like orange slices, like standing there so excited to like hand them to you and like, everyone's just jazzed and like. There's so many good athletes, like everyone there is like qualified to be there. And it's just like this huge celebration. And I was like, I want to do this.

• 26:03Rich Roll?

  Hmm. And so how long between that experience and you kind of graduating into this elite level? I mean, your PR is what you're like a 217 marathon?

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:15Rich Roll?

  But that's what 95, 96, your first Boston?

• 26:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, 97, I think was my first Boston.

• 26:22Rich Roll?

  So it's really like a 10 year period then before you start making all these US teams and winning all these races?

• 26:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm in 2000. So I qualified for three Olympic trials, 2004, 2008, and 2012.

• 26:38Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So 2004. So that's still seven years of training and learning and developing.

• 26:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 26:46Rich Roll?

  And in that time, are you in DC like getting coffee at the maritime shipping company?

• 26:51Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah, I totally am. Yeah. And I'm running for, so I'm running for the local running stores, Pacers Running. And so I quickly like got on their team. Like at first, you know, I just walked into the running store after running 254. And I was like, thought I was a big deal, you know? And I was like, hey, you know, I ran 254. Can I be on your, you know, running team? And they were just like, dude, you're not fast enough to be on our team. But they were like, hey, you can come to like track workout. So I basically started out in like the, you know, kind of third group. And by like two months in, I was running with the first group. And then I, I heard the, I overheard them talking about a race they were going to go do this Wawa 10 miler.

• 27:36Speaker 01

  And I was like, I'm going to go to that race and I'm going to beat them all. And I ended up going to the race and did not beat them all, but I beat all but one of them. This guy Jeff Van Horn, who owns like Lucky Feet Running, and we're still friends, but like he still remembers that day. And after that race, they're like, hey, you want to be on our team? And I was like, yeah, dude. And I thought I, I thought I had made it.

• 28:00Rich Roll?

  One of the things about your career is that you seem to constantly be racing, right? Like a lot of athletes at your level, they'll pick their key race and they'll kind of clear their calendar. And they really focus on, you know, peaking for, you know, one or two times a season. And From what I can gather, it's almost like you're racing, it feels like every weekend, you're doing some crazy thing. And, you know, maybe that's just part of the whole experience or kind of part and parcel of your training approach. But it is very different from the typical elite runner.

• 28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think that's the thing that most people started to learn about me and something that I have been known for is like, I'll race 40 or 50 times a year. And it's been less the last couple of years, just because I've been doing like, super long stuff. But, um, yeah, like that if, if I could, I would race, you know, as much as possible.

• 28:57Rich Roll?

  So for people that don't know, like, you ran all the way across the United States from San Francisco, you ended in Rehoboth Beach. The last mile of that was like a 610 or something like that, right?

• 29:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:09Rich Roll?

  And then the next day, you woke up and ran a 5K?

• 29:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 29:13Rich Roll?

  In a, in like, an official, like, neighborhood race or whatever, and averaged like 601s?

• 29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, dude, yeah. And, well, and it's funny because I've won that race like six times or something. So they were like, you're coming. And I was like, for sure, I'm gonna be there. And I was like, I, I got there with my brother and I was like, I have no idea how this is gonna go. And I was warming up and I was like, I feel actually pretty good. Like, and so I, I went out and I was like, dude, you can't let me beat you. And my brother was like, I dropped him. And then I started like picking up.

• 29:42Rich Roll?

  Did you win that race?

• 29:43Speaker 01

  No, I totally did not win. But I, I did okay. I think I was in the top, you know, five or 10.

• 29:50Rich Roll?

  So, the point being, that you have this huge kind of diesel engine, you can be the locomotive, right, that goes all the way across the US. But you also have a little bit of jackrabbit in you. So from a training perspective, like, is that a genetic thing? That you've always been able to go fast and long? Or do you train for that specifically? Or how do you kind of think about that?

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Um, I think, I like to use both of the engines. And, and I think, The run across the country was, I had to be so disciplined. Like, that was unnaturally slow running for me. I've gotten better at that over the last couple of years, especially with the FKTs. And then I've done some of those, you know, backyard ultras. Like, I know you had Harvey on and talked to him. And like Harvey is similar in that he likes to race a lot, too. And he kinda-

• 30:39Rich Roll?

  And he runs to and from work and-

• 30:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And so we have a lot of that in common. So we've, and we're both plant-based and all that, too. So like, we've shared, you know, tips and tricks. But yeah, like, so as far as, I like to mix it up and I like to keep it interesting. So I feel like if you focus only on one thing, I mean, it might be awesome to get really good at one thing, but I don't think that you continue to evolve in, as an athlete and as a person. So I don't mind, like, not being the best at something.

• 31:11Rich Roll?

  No, you seem to have a beginner's mind. Like, we're gonna get, like, you're trying to become a pickleball professional, right? Like, you do all this other stuff-

• 31:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 31:19Rich Roll?

  Which just seems insane to me.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:21Rich Roll?

  But, you know, between the lines, I see somebody who, yeah, you're not afraid to try new things. You're always trying to master a new skill. And that keeps you kind of humble and curious, right? And I'm sure that that spills over into your running. Like, it all informs, you know, the larger, kind of, you know, fully-formed Mike Wardian.

• 31:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And as far as, like, the ability to do it, I feel like you have, again, it's going back to, like, you have to want to do it. And you have to be willing to not have success. And so if you're, if you have those, that mindset going in, like, you know, if I don't win, okay, fine. But like, maybe I did better than I did the day before, or maybe the time before, or maybe the short run's gonna help me for the long, the long runs. And then I feel like the longer ultra stuff helps me, especially when I was, like, running like those fast marathon times. Like, when I ran my PR of 217, like, two weeks later, I ran Badwater and finished third. So like-

• 32:21Rich Roll?

  That was just two weeks later?

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:23Rich Roll?

  Oh, my god.

• 32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, and like, all the people at Badwater are like, dude, your 217's not gonna help you. You're gonna be out here. And I was like, I know, I know.

• 32:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but by always, like, having another race a couple of weeks later, it kind of depressurizes the whole thing, right?

• 32:39Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 32:39Rich Roll?

  Cause you're like, alright, that didn't go well, but I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be here two weeks later and we'll try something different.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Right. And- And like, some people think like, that's a lack of focus. And I just think that's the way that I like to train and it keeps me motivated. So like, if you're not motivated, then no matter how, you know, well you do at a race, like, it's, it's, it's gonna be hard. And like, I feel like, a lot of the people, and you've probably seen this in the sport too, is a lot of the people that, you know, you came up with, aren't doing the sport anymore, or not doing it in the way that they want, or, you know, I've already stepped away from the sport. So like, there's so many people that used to be my competitor that aren't even racing anymore. So like, that's one of the things I'm really proud of too, is like, just to have longevity.

• 33:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you stayed in it. I would consider myself one of those people who's not doing it anymore. I'm doing this instead.

• 33:31Speaker 01

  But like, that's not a, that's, that's your choice, right?

• 33:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I made that choice.

• 33:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and some people, like, they don't want to do it anymore, right? And I don't fault them for that. But I'm still, like, motivated to see, you know, what I can do.

• 33:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it stayed fresh for you.

• 33:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think like, if, if I had only like, cared about my 5K time, or my marathon time, like, it gets hard. Like, it's, it's hard to be on that edge for that long, and, and only going for one thing.

• 33:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because at some point, you're just, you're not gonna be able to make that PR work for you anymore.

• 34:04Speaker 01

  Right.

• 34:05Rich Roll?

  And if you have so much invested in that, you're gonna be disappointed, or it kind of drains the joy out of the whole thing.

• 34:11Speaker 01

  Right. It's like running with plantar fasciitis. Like, you can still run with plantar fasciitis, it just sucks. It's just not fun.

• 34:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 34:19Speaker 01

  Like, you can train right through it. Like, I've done it, and it's, just sucks the joy out of every run.

• 34:31Rich Roll?

  So, over the years, you've gotten, you know, quite a bit of press for all the different things that you've done, from being the fastest marathoner in a Spider-Man costume, and like, all kinds of crazy things. But I feel like, there was an inflection point in kind of your notoriety and your resume, with the Quarantine Backyard Ultra, right? When everyone was locked down, all the races were canceled, and the whole world kind of united around this shared community quest, where people all over the world were embarking on this challenge. So, talk a little bit about that for people who don't know what that is.

• 35:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll definitely talk about that a little bit. And it's funny, because I didn't even know what was going on until the week... That it was happening like and I only saw it because my friend Maggie Guterol was doing it and I was like, oh yeah, that that thing like I've been she'd been like, oh, you'd be good at this. And I was like, oh, cool. And I'd seen, you know, the backyard races. But for people that don't know, I feel like everyone that's probably listening to your show probably does know.

• 35:30Rich Roll?

  Maybe, maybe not.

• 35:31Speaker 01

  But like the backyard ultra is it's a thing. It's kind of like a century club. If you were like from your drinking days where you drink like a shot every minute on the minute, but this is every hour on the hour, you have to run 4.167 miles. And it seems kind of like an arbitrary number until you realize that every 24 hours, that equals 100 miles. So basically, in 24 hours of doing 4.167 miles, it gets you to 20 or gets you to 100 miles. And then the way that it works is like, everyone starts the race, and then the race goes, keeps going, no one can quit until everyone quits and there's two people

• 36:13Speaker 01

  left. And then the race can only go one more loop until the last person quits, or the second to the last person, which called like the assist. And the way that the quarantine backyard ultra worked, which was kind of unique at the time, is everyone logged into like their computer, because there was everyone was locked down.

• 36:32Rich Roll?

  Right. It wasn't happening at a particular place. Everybody just did it wherever they were.

• 36:37Speaker 01

  Right. Which was kind of like amazing. And then and most of the time, it's like outside, but because it was quarantine, there were some countries where you couldn't be outside. So they allowed people to be on treadmills. Or there was a woman that was like running from her sauna in like Sweden, like out on this like frozen lake. There's people like running around like closed restaurants, like I ran around a point four mile loop around my neighborhood for it turned out to be 63 hours. So I went like 260 some miles.

• 37:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 37:12Speaker 01

  So like almost.

• 37:13Rich Roll?

  And you you won that you were the last man standing.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  Yes, the last person standing. And it came down to me and a guy on a treadmill in like the Czech Republic, I guess.

• 37:22Rich Roll?

  And I feel like that, like within the ultra community or the running community, people are familiar with that format of race and it's gaining in popularity. But That quarantine backyard really kind of made mainstream news because it was such a beautiful celebration of agency in an era in which we were all sort of deprived of agency.

• 37:42Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah. And I think there was just nothing else going on too.

• 37:45Rich Roll?

  Right. And it was the social media thing.

• 37:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:48Rich Roll?

  That's what drove the entire kind of intrigue.

• 37:51Speaker 01

  Right. And, and I think what was so neat about it too, is that you did have people like, you know, running in restaurants and like, you know, they were still in the race, you know? And like, I'm running around my block and like, people are like, no one, no one's going to work. So like, my whole neighborhood was out. So like, I met neighbors.

• 38:09Rich Roll?

  They all knew what was going on.

• 38:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so like, the first day, like, no one really was out. But like, by the second day, everyone's like, oh my God, that guy's still running around the block. And then by like, halfway through the second day, like, people had set up like, aid stations and like, all this like-

• 38:23Rich Roll?

  Because no one has anything to do.

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, no one had anything to do. So like, it was awesome, you know? People are like, and, but everyone's still kind of scared too, because it's at the beginning of COVID. And so like, you know, people are not sure if they should be there or not. And so like, but it did give, you know, people something to follow. And I, and I think it was just beautiful. Like, I was following the other people and I was like, I can't believe she's still running from that sauna. Like, it's like crazy. And then you're getting the different like, weather too. And, you know, it was, it was the first night, it was amazing, but the second day it got super hot in DC. And so like, you get hot and humid, like, versus like, somebody that's in their like, basement, you know? Like, that's, it's hard. Yeah.

• 39:07Rich Roll?

  And the DC heat and humidity is no small thing.

• 39:11Speaker 01

  No, yeah, you know what that's like. But like, just to have so many people come out and then, you know, mainstream media, like, it was on ESPN, you know, New York Times, Wall Street, or not Wall Street, Washington Post, and like, it got a lot of coverage.

• 39:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's cool. And that kind of format is only gaining in popularity like we all saw what happened last week, right?

• 39:34Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:35Rich Roll?

  The kind of ceiling on what's possible with that 4.167 loop is just exploding. So these guys from, they were from Belgium, right?

• 39:44Speaker 01

  Oh dude, it was so baller, yeah.

• 39:46Rich Roll?

  420 miles?

• 39:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, they crushed the record, yeah.

• 39:50Rich Roll?

  Cause it was a big deal the year before when Harvey, I think was the first to eclipse 300. Is that right? I might have that wrong.

• 39:59Speaker 01

  I think, no, I think you're close, yeah. And, and what's interesting too is like, the format this year, I think was they had like, national teams. So like the US team versus the Belgium team versus the French team versus the Chinese team. And the thing I love about the, the format of the last man standing or last person standing, I should say, because a lot of times women win these type of things, like Courtney's won, I know you've had on the podcast, and Maggie's won, and I mean, it's, it's just whoever's the stronger mentally, because like, it's not that hard to run 4.167 miles in an hour, like, most people can walk that almost.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  What's hard is like, you have to like, do all your nutrition, and you have to go to the bathroom, and you can't take aid once you leave the aid station, and so like, all that part is hard, you know?

• 40:52Rich Roll?

  You left out the biggest one, though.

• 40:53Speaker 01

  Oh, the sleep?

• 40:54Rich Roll?

  Sleep, yeah.

• 40:55Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, yeah.

• 40:56Rich Roll?

  But you have an interesting relationship with sleep.

• 40:59Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 41:00Rich Roll?

  You don't seem to need that much sleep.

• 41:01Speaker 01

  No, I don't, which is like, a good and bad thing. We were talking, Josh and I were talking on the way up, and he's the same way, and it's, it's great, but like, I, I definitely see the benefits of sleep, and like, I've tried to do better with that, and, and during the run across the country, like, I went from, you know, my normal four or five hours of sleep to like, six or seven hours, like, like, no, like, I, the first like, week and a half, I was like, I was still doing my thing, like, playing my video games and sending texts and emails at all hours of the day and night, and then I was just like, no, I can't do that anymore, so like... I mean, maybe there is like a certain threshold of exertion where the sleep just becomes more paramount.

• 41:44Rich Roll?

  Six or seven hours, you describe that almost as if that's indulgent.

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:49Rich Roll?

  Like four or five, you're cool with that. I would just be completely debilitated.

• 41:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, like your whoop score would not be where you want it to be.

• 41:57Rich Roll?

  No, no, but you're fine on four to five.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like that's

• 42:02Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 42:03Speaker 01

  That's pretty good for me.

• 42:05Rich Roll?

  Matthew Walker would have some quality words for you, the sleep diplomat. Like he's like, anybody who says that they can get by on four or five hours is delusional.

• 42:15Speaker 01

  Oh, well, yeah, maybe that's

• 42:17Rich Roll?

  I don't know, but you seem to be high functioning.

• 42:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so far, so good. Although I did read like a bad study today about how it can mess with your overall like diabetes and heart disease and all these kind of bad things.

• 42:31Rich Roll?

  But are you just naturally waking up early or do you set an alarm and just say, I'm only going to sleep four or five hours?

• 42:37Speaker 01

  Oh, no, no, I'm like waking up naturally.

• 42:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So what do you get up at like 4:30 or something?

• 42:43Speaker 01

  Usually most days 4:45 and then I start my first workout at like 5:30 and usually that's like CrossFit or I work with a personal trainer and then I run usually after that.

• 42:55Rich Roll?

  The CrossFit thing is super interesting. I mean, that goes back to the beginner's mind.

• 42:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:59Rich Roll?

  Like I love on Instagram how you're always very transparently showing all your gym routines.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:05Rich Roll?

  Which is unusual for a runner. Like they like to show the epic, you know, kind of videos of them running in a beautiful location. But you're like, no, it's these little things that I do, all these strength exercises that, you know, obviously are contributing to your longevity. Cause you're like, what are you like 48 now?

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Dude, yeah, right on. Yeah, totally. Yeah, I'm 48 and yeah, I want to be doing this for a long time. And I feel like that's helped me and I feel like it's really helped me in the longer stuff. Like just being stronger, being able to carry like a heavier pack, being able to keep form as the race goes on or the FKT or whatever I'm doing. And then also it's just like mentally, like it's hard. Like when you're doing like the force set of like dead bug plank things. And it's kind of like going into the last like 100 meters of a race, you know, when there's a person right on your shoulder and you're like, is it, you know, is it you or me that's going to make it to the? The line first and I feel like that really, really helps.

• 44:04Rich Roll?

  With that strength and stability, you can maintain your form under duress and strain longer and more powerfully.

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also like I have the ability to just grind, like the ability to just put your head down and work. And I think that that's really, really helpful, especially in a race like the last man standing or last person standing where it's just, you don't have to go fast. You just have to keep going and you have to want to keep going.

• 44:32Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. So with CrossFit though, were you doing like the classes with everyone else?

• 44:37Speaker 01

  No.

• 44:38Rich Roll?

  Or did you do that just alone or with a personal trainer?

• 44:41Speaker 01

  No, I'm doing it with my friend, Tom Merhofer. And so he has like this really amazing gym at his house. And so we became friends during quarantine. And so I've just been doing it with him really. So I haven't gone to like, you know, Mayhem or any of the like super badass like CrossFit places yet, which I really want to do.

• 45:00Rich Roll?

  It's a different culture from the running culture.

• 45:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally. Yeah. But it's, it's something that I'm excited about. I was fortunate enough to do this thing called the Spartan Games during quarantine and got to see some of the, you know, beasts of the CrossFit world. And yeah, that's just, just, just something that I am really impressed with and I'd like to play around with for sure.

• 45:22Rich Roll?

  Have you ever had periods where you were injured significantly? Or have you been pretty injury free?

• 45:29Speaker 01

  No. So I, I had a couple bouts of injury. My first big injury was in 2012, but for the most part, I've been healthy as an athlete. My, our son Grant has epilepsy and so he had a epilepsy in 2011. It was kind of right after I'd set all the PRs in my marathon and, and longer distances, 100K, 50K. And he started getting seizures and so we were dealing with that. And like my four hours of sleep went to like 30 minutes of sleep, you know, like it would be like. My turn to check on him or Jennifer's turn to check on him. And I ended up getting five stress fractures of my pelvis and five hernias like simultaneously.

• 46:13Speaker 01

  And that was the first time I was like, oh, maybe, maybe I'm not going to be able to be an athlete anymore. But I did kind of the same thing I've always done is like, okay, I can't run right now, but what can I do? And I just like became like the most insane awkward jogger. Like I, I would just go to like, you, I don't know if you know the pool, but like Washington Liberty. It used to be called Washington and Lee.

• 46:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  High school.

• 46:40Rich Roll?

  I know, yeah.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, I went there and I would just, just aqua jog for like two or three hours. And came out of the pool after that and some physical therapy. And it took about three months of like letting the stress fractures heal. And then I got hernia surgery and then came back and went from, you know, nothing to like running. Like, oh, I wanted to run sub six minute miles on a half marathon and ran like 114. And then started running again and started winning races again. And then the second bout was during that Spartan Games.

• 47:19Speaker 01

  I herniated my L five, L six S one disc in my back. And I think I actually maybe sent you a note about that because I met some people that were pretty good at getting me sorted out. And so I worked with like MedStar Health and

• 47:35Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 47:36Speaker 01

  Was able to get my back sorted out.

• 47:38Rich Roll?

  I remember getting a note. I'll look for that though, because yeah, well, we could talk about that.

• 47:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, totally, man. Yeah. Yeah. So I got one, I did a bunch of, you know, I'm sure they're probably having you do like open books and that kind of stuff to like, try to get your back sorted, but got that healed. And that's actually when I decided to run across the country because I was like, I've been, it's one of those kind of things that I've been like, oh, someday I'll do that. And when that happened, I was like, I'm not taking any more chances.

• 48:07Rich Roll?

  This is the time.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:08Rich Roll?

  Right. And did those experiences inform like your approach to all the functional fitness and strength training stuff to kind of stabilize and prevent that from happening in the future?

• 48:19Speaker 01

  Well, I think that that I was doing it already, but that's when I was like, hey, this is, I think had I not been doing that, I would have been in even worse predicament and not able to recover as quickly as I did. So when I got injured at the Spartan Games, that was the strongest and fittest I'd ever been because I was getting ready to run across the country.

• 48:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  And, and I was like, then I got hurt and I was like, oh, I might not ever have this chance again. And I was like, there's no way I'm gonna risk not taking advantage of all the resources that I have.

• 48:52Rich Roll?

  Have elite runners approached you with curiosity about your strength training stuff? Because I feel like there's a lot of room for, for kind of growth and most runners, especially elite runners, they're just doing a lot of the running and, you know, the kind of trope is like the gym stuff, like I, you know, whatever, I don't have time for that. Or they're worried about putting on weight, suddenly they're gonna snap their fingers and look like Ryan Hall.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Oh, my gosh. Dude, he is like such an inspiration, dude.

• 49:22Rich Roll?

  Incredible, right?

• 49:23Speaker 01

  Dude, so cool. It's, and I saw him because he was at that first world marathon challenge with me.

• 49:28Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 49:29Speaker 01

  And I thought, oh, man, he's gonna be my competition, not knowing, like, I knew he hadn't run, but I was like, still, he's like a 204 marathoner. Like, he could not run and still run like a 230, right?

• 49:39Rich Roll?

  He must have, how much, Josh, how much weight did Ryan put on? Do you know? Yeah, like 35. 35? At least, right?

• 49:48Speaker 01

  Well, he fluctuates a little too.

• 49:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:51Speaker 01

  Like, so he'll like get bigger and then cut.

• 49:54Rich Roll?

  His, yeah, his bulk and his cut.

• 49:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 49:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And what was his weight at the elite level of

• 50:04Speaker 01

  He was like 127, he told me.

• 50:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it varied, but that was like, he was too light when he was under 130. Right.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:12Rich Roll?

  That's a 70-pound swing, though. Yeah.

• 50:15Speaker 01

  Well.

• 50:15Rich Roll?

  And he could probably still crush, you know, he, it looks like he's out there running a little bit these days.

• 50:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know, it's fun, man. And so hopefully someday I'll get to, to do some, some fun adventures with him.

• 50:28Rich Roll?

  Right. But I think between the two of you guys, because you're, you're doing a lot of strength training, but you're maintaining a runner's physique.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:36Rich Roll?

  And you're convinced that this is contributing to your longevity and like your power and like all of these things. I think that there's, there's really an opportunity for the running community to, you know, embrace some of the stuff that you're doing in a, in a bigger way.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  Well, and it's, it's awesome. Like I, every day have someone that like says like, oh man, I do your exercise. Like at the pickleball tournament, I was at last weekend, I had three people come up and say like, hey, man, like I, I, I follow you and I do your exercises. And I was like, that is music to my ears. Like I love hearing that. And, and I think so many people are so intimidated, like either by the cost or like going to a place or not knowing what to do when they get there. And so like, just to have like something that's free that they can just be like, I mean, it's not everything, but it's like a place to get started, right?

• 51:28Speaker 01

  And so like, that's great. Like, and it's making them better. Like I, yeah, I can't ask for anything more than that.

• 51:36Rich Roll?

  Sure. Um, all right. So we have a tradition here on the show of, of interviewing, uh, more than a couple, uh, trans con runners. We've had Ricky Gates on, who did it self-supported. That's a whole other.

• 51:49Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I talked to Ricky.

• 51:50Rich Roll?

  Level of insanity, right? Um, Robbie Ballinger, Hella Sidibe. I think Robbie did it in 75 days. Hella did it in 84.

• 51:59Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 52:00Rich Roll?

  Correct. I don't know how long it took Ricky, but longer because he was doing his own thing, right?

• 52:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And well, and he did some paddling in there.

• 52:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 52:07Speaker 01

  And he had like a budget.

• 52:08Rich Roll?

  And he was making a documentary.

• 52:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:10Rich Roll?

  At the same time.

• 52:11Speaker 01

  Totally. And he had to push like, he had to, like, the hard part for him is, he was going across the desert by himself, like, pushing like a cart. So like, yeah.

• 52:20Rich Roll?

  He had some dark, did you watch the documentary?

• 52:22Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I watched it. I read the book.

• 52:24Rich Roll?

  Dark Moments of the Soul.

• 52:25Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 52:26Rich Roll?

  At that, you know, when he's, he had to like crawl into a cave for a while and

• 52:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:30Rich Roll?

  lick his wounds.

• 52:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think he really met his maker on that one. But in your case, you set this goal of doing it in 75 days, which is how long it took Robbie. You ended up doing it in 62 days, right? So

• 52:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, 61.

• 52:45Rich Roll?

  You're running in excess, to do that, you had to run in excess of 50 miles a day.

• 52:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I actually did a longer route than a lot of people too, because I went all the way to Rehoboth. And there was a bridge I couldn't get across, so I had to go around it and

• 52:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they won't let you run across the Chesapeake Bay Bridge, right?

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, the Bay Bridge, yeah. Yeah, and I called the guys in charge of it, and he was like, no.

• 53:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, most people end in like DC or New York, or they don't go all the way to the ocean.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Or, yeah, pretty much. And so, and, I mean, that works, but like, I wanted it to be all the way ocean to ocean. And so I actually messed up when I planned it. I started at San Francisco City Hall, thinking I could just run across the Golden Gate and put my feet in there, but that's not the ocean. So I had to run like 10K the wrong way the first day to get over to Ocean Beach.

• 53:39Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, yeah. It's not that much further, but a little bit.

• 53:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:43Rich Roll?

  Enough. Yeah, I got you. And Route 50, is that a typical route? Or is that unique to go that route?

• 53:51Speaker 01

  It's pretty unique. I think a lot of people go a little bit different. Like, some people go like Route 66, other people kind of go a little bit higher so that they can get to New York, because like, the fastest route for, if you're gonna go for the record or something, you wanna probably go like San Francisco City Hall to New York City Hall. And you kind of go like through, I think it's Yosemite, you go a little bit through there and kind of across that way. I wanted to run Route 50 because I called the project Running Home, and I actually live on Route 50 in Arlington, like Arlington Boulevard. So I was like, wow, I didn't even know that you could run Route 50. And actually, Route 50 ends in Ocean City, Maryland. So a little bit further south. So a couple

• 54:34Speaker 01

  days after I finished the run in Rehoboth, I went and ran down.

• 54:38Rich Roll?

  Just to complete it.

• 54:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, to complete it.

• 54:40Rich Roll?

  Because you're so detail oriented and compulsive.

• 54:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:45Rich Roll?

  In looking at like the other people who have done this, you know, some of the common themes that that come up are like a greater, you know, kind of appreciation for the beauty of our country, but also like the people, because you're meeting so many different people along the way. And there is this sense that, you know, we're at a kind of unique moment where we feel divided and we can't communicate with each other, et cetera. But, you know, if you talk to Ricky, or Robbie, or Hella, they'll say, yes, we had some, we had some negative encounters with trucks and cars and a few people along the way. But by and large, and for the most part, like it's, you know, it's kind of a beautiful experience of really connecting with people, boots on the ground, you know,

• 55:28Rich Roll?

  in all these different areas as you're passing, you know, so slowly through these various, you know, areas.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Totally. Yeah. And I feel like you also had Mike Posner on, right?

• 55:38Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  Because I like started following him.

• 55:41Rich Roll?

  We should lump him on. I mean, he walked, but like, I totally didn't even think about that. You're absolutely correct.

• 55:45Speaker 01

  Dude, I was petrified of getting bit by a rattlesnake in Colorado because of what happened to him. So yeah, you're absolutely right. And it was, it's funny, because people be like, oh, you ran 52 miles a day. But really, I ran like five miles at a time, four or five miles at a time. Like, the first week, I was like, too aggressive. And I was running like 10, 10 miles before seeing my support crew. But like, then I quickly was like, oh, I need more help. And you do get a really good feel for our country. And I can't believe how Team America I am right now. Like, I love our country. Like, I was so shocked at how much beauty I found. Like, I've been a lot of places all around the

• 56:25Speaker 01

  world, all around the country. But like, that little section of the country, Route 50, and kind of like, they call it America's loneliest highway in Nevada, like, and you're going through like, places like, right near like, Area 51, like, from Ely to, I think it's Baker, maybe, is like, the darkest place in the lower continental United States. So like, it's just. Unbelievably gorgeous, like just nothing, nothingness. And I read so many books along the route, but like I was reading books like Stephen King has a book where like people are getting like snatched from like Route 50, like right where I was running. And you know, so it's like, you get like all these kind of different experiences. But yeah, one of the best things was like just rolling up to like a town like

• 57:10Speaker 01

  we were in, I was telling Josh this actually, because he was watching like Top Gun Maverick last night. And I was like, oh, I saw this in Syracuse, Kansas at this theater from like 1934. And it was like all locals and my wife and kids had flown in. And it was the only time I saw them during the trip. And like, we went and saw Top Gun like the weekend it came out after I'd run, you know, 50 miles that day.

• 57:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:34Speaker 01

  And then we had dinner at a local like restaurant, like the Black Bison or something. But like, the town was literally like one of those towns from like, it looked like a movie set, you know, it was like, one strip and it was like, old school movie theater.

• 57:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 57:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, like State Farm Office, like restaurant, and then, you know, lake that way, you know, sign. And it was like, so many experiences like that. Or like, we went to this place, I think it's in Indiana, instead of, you know, Dairy Queen, it was called Dairy King. It was a complete knockoff of like Dairy Queen. And I don't know if Dairy Queen knocked off Dairy King, or, but it was like, shockingly, they had like vegan ice cream, they had like vegan, like 10 vegan options on the menu, like hamburgers, hot dogs, like, and literally, I was starving, but it was actually quite good. Like, and I was shocked at how many

• 58:32Speaker 01

  options I found for like, plant-based foods along the route. Like, I was expecting, you know, to just not have a lot of choices. And I was surprised at how many choices there were.

• 58:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the diet thing, I mean, that's evolved for you, right? You were sort of a longtime vegetarian who has been

• 58:49Rich Roll?

  Increasingly more flirtatious with the, you know, the 100% plant-based.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Yes. Yeah.

• 58:55Rich Roll?

  Upgrade.

• 58:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, upgrade. Well, and I guess I'm still not 100% vegan because I, I still eat honey and so like.

• 59:04Rich Roll?

  That's why I said flirtatious.

• 59:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So I haven't been able to give up honey and I don't know if I ever will, but I'm, yeah, I definitely love that aspect of my life and that I've been lucky enough to find, you know, that I think when you and I were growing up, like the common mentality, especially like playing a sport like lacrosse or football or something is like, you need meat to be strong to be able to, you know, compete or whatever. And I just started questioning that and, and then, you know, slowly like, took out one thing and see how I felt and then took out another, like I stopped eating red meat in high school and stopped eating chicken in college and then.

• 59:47Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  You know, it was like, oh, I still feel good. I still feel great. And then I started being like, oh, I actually feel a little bit better. And then my recovery has been the thing that most people are impressed with. And I definitely feel like that has something to do with it.

• 1:00:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Do you think that as you continue to make those tweaks in your diet, that that's improving your recovery? Or is that like the variable that you're looking at?

• 1:00:10Speaker 01

  Uh, I think it's something. I, I think it's just feeling good. Like I feel like when I eat the way that I do, like I, I feel better and I also feel like ready for the next workout or the next adventure or whatever it might be.

• 1:00:23Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah. Your recovery seems like it's off the chain. Like you're able to just get up and go, go, go, go.

• 1:00:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think that, and what's cool is like, I think there's a, and I don't know if it's a misconception or it's just a common mentality about like, as you age, like you're not going to be able to recover as well. And I just don't buy into that. Like I, I feel like I've still been able to recover just as well as I had before. I think what happens is I just have more obligations. Like the older you get, you just have more stuff going on and it just gets harder to maybe focus. But I don't feel like the recovery has been any less than it was.

• 1:01:10Rich Roll?

  When you're preparing to run across the United States, what does that training program look like? Like, how do you approach a goal that massive?

• 1:01:21Speaker 01

  It was actually weird. So first off, I talked to a lot of people. Like, I talked to Robbie, I talked to... I didn't talk to Hella because I didn't know him at that point. Now I do. I would have. I talked to Ricky Gates. I talked to as many people as I could. A guy named Phil McCarthy. I don't know if you know him or not.

• 1:01:42Rich Roll?

  I don't know him.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  He's like a New York-based guy. Jason Romero, who's another guy who's run across the country. Talked to, yeah, just anyone I could that had done it. And I joined like a Facebook group, like US TransCon Crossers.

• 1:01:59Rich Roll?

  I think Robbie talked about that as well.

• 1:02:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of...

• 1:02:01Rich Roll?

  Everybody wants to help, right?

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:03Rich Roll?

  Have this collective wisdom about

• 1:02:05Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:06Rich Roll?

  common mistakes and...

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  Like, don't run on I-70 in Colorado, or, you know, you're gonna get booted off. Like, I think Robbie actually had to jump like a thing when the cops came or whatever. And I don't know. Yeah. So I tried to talk to as many people as I could. And what I realized is there's... It's almost like, I think people think when you're getting ready to run 100 miles, like, you're gonna be running 100 miles in training. And that's not really the way that it works for most people. And so I just realized, like, I'm not gonna ever be able to do... Like, my friend Pete Kostelnik, I talked to also, who has the record. And he was like waking up and doing like a marathon every day, right? And I was just like, I just don't... That's not what I want to do.

• 1:02:50Speaker 01

  And so I started doing a lot of cross-training. Did a lot of CrossFit, doing a lot of like strength training. I wanted to put on like three or four pounds of muscle. Like, usually I'm like 140 to 142 pounds. And I wanted to get up to like 146, 147, just so I'd have something to give away as the run went along. So I wanted to put on weight. I wanted to do one kind of simulation race. So I did a race in Sri Lanka called the Ultra X Sri Lanka, which was like a five-day stage race where you are running anywhere from like a marathon to like 40 miles.

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  In extreme temperatures because I knew like I'm gonna not have the options. Yeah, I'll have and also like I wanted to to get the heat and humidity because I knew that we had a trip with the fam like you were saying like how did you make it work like we planned a family trip to the Galapagos with the families because I figured like once a lifetime trip, family will all go to the Galapagos. Uh, we'll have a great time and then like no one will need me for a couple of weeks. And then that's three weeks into the trans con. Uh huh. And then by the time people are like, oh, where's you know, like I'm starting to miss my dad. Like all must be done. And uh, so like kind of got all that lined up.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  But I didn't do a ton of running. I actually did less running than I normally do, knowing that I kind of had a huge base of years and years of just stacking runs and workouts. And the last, it was ridiculous, but like you and I both talked about earlier is like, I love to race. I I turned down more races in amazing locations and opportunities than I ever have in my life because I was like, is that going to get me across the country? No, then I'm not going to do it. So it was like, I think that was for me, one of the hardest things was like running less than I want to because I don't want to injure myself or put myself in a, in a bad spot training wise.

• 1:04:55Speaker 01

  And then putting on, putting on weight, knowing that you're gonna hopefully give it back to the running gods, which is what exactly happened. Like there's no way that you can eat as many like when you say like someone like Michael Phelps eats like 13,000 calories a day or something like I don't know how many calories you've tried to eat a day, but like.

• 1:05:16Rich Roll?

  No, that just it's a, that's a job. Like that sounds challenging and not fun.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  It's just not fun. Like by the end of the trans con, I didn't want to eat anymore. Like I, I, if I could have taken that fuel from the matrix where it's like everything you need and like. A gruel and you could just drink it and it would be done like I would have done that 100% of the time.

• 1:05:37Rich Roll?

  How much weight did you lose? Like when you completed it, were you significantly lighter?

• 1:05:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I started at 146 and I finished at 134 or so.

• 1:05:47Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. That's not too bad, though.

• 1:05:49Speaker 01

  It wasn't too bad.

• 1:05:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:50Speaker 01

  And, and it, and it quickly came back. So like,

• 1:05:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:55Speaker 01

  I, but I sacrificed like I, all my little muscles that I had built up from CrossFit were just evaporated like, like I was like, oh no, my little, little biceps gone.

• 1:06:04Rich Roll?

  I ran across the country, but I gotta turn, turn in my CrossFit man card.

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, pretty much.

• 1:06:10Rich Roll?

  But I like that, that notion of just becoming strong, stable and fresh. You have this huge base. And the discipline, as you mentioned earlier, was really about holding back because you're so used to running fast and far. It would be very easy for you, at least early on, to kind of overdo it and dig a hole for yourself. So just being like really cautious and, and like meeting out the days, like, you know, in a very methodical way and kind of building the fitness as you go. Like I talked about James Lawrence here on Cowboy did like 101 Ironman. He was like, he barely did any running at all before that. He was like, I just, I'll, I'll get fit for that as I go. Cause it's so long. There's only so much I can do to get ready for it.

• 1:06:53Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:06:54Rich Roll?

  And we can debate the wisdom of that, but you know, I can see the logic.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and I, that being said, like, we didn't touch on this, but in 2019, I did a test where I ran across Israel and set the fastest known time on the Israeli national trail.

• 1:07:11Rich Roll?

  And that's like 600 miles or something, right?

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's a thousand kilometers or so. And I did it in about 10 days. So like a hundred kilometers a day. And I knew like what that meant, like, and that to me was like, like, if you want to go for the real record, like to run across the country, that's like 72 miles a day. And that's like,

• 1:07:33Speaker 01

  That's, those are big days, like, and going across Israel, like, I had days that were like 20 hour days and you're going up and down mountains and navigating and I was just like, I know what that means. So like, when I hear people say like, "Oh, I'm gonna do it in like 40 days," I'm like, "You, dude, don't even..." You, you don't know what you're saying because like, it's not like, the running's one part of it, but then there's like, where are you gonna stop the RV?

• 1:08:02Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  Where are you gonna get food? Like, who's gonna do the laundry? Like, who's gonna, like, how long does it take you to tape your feet? Like, do you know how long it takes to tape your feet in the morning? Like, are you gonna make yourself take a shower? And then, every night, I was doing a Facebook or Instagram post. So like, that was like an hour, hour and a half every day, trying to remember what happened during the day, you know, who threw a hamburger at you, like, the person that stopped their car to, you know, wish you well, or, you know, tried to run you off the road, or whatever happened.

• 1:08:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you were pretty good about that. Uh, you know, always taking photos with people that were running with you, like, everywhere you went, it's cool. And even though you did this in 62 days, you still managed to go see Top Gun and go to Dairy King and like, read a book here and there.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  I read like 30, 32 books.

• 1:08:50Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:08:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:51Rich Roll?

  Like, before you went to battery night?

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  No, I was listening to-

• 1:08:53Rich Roll?

  Or audiobooks?

• 1:08:54Speaker 01

  Audiobooks.

• 1:08:54Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I was listening to audiobooks.

• 1:08:56Rich Roll?

  That's multitasking.

• 1:08:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was listening to your podcast a lot, like, you, thank you again, because you guys helped me get through it, for sure. Like, it was-

• 1:09:04Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:09:05Speaker 01

  And especially, I love the long form, because like, you really get into it with people, and so it's, you know, I remember one day, in the middle of Nevada, listening to you guys talk, and I was just like, "Man, this is so awesome." Like, I can't believe, like, I, because I was thinking of like, because I, and I also read a bunch of the old books, like, you know, Tales from the Breakdown Lane, and like, My Life Walking Around the Country and stuff. And I was just thinking, like, those guys were like going to payphones, like, to check in with their family. Like, I'm like, on my- AirPods, like calling my wife, like she's listening to cars like zip by me like freaking out, you know, every day. And then eventually by like two weeks in, she's like, uh, another truck. I was like, yeah, another truck. But like, I had those kind of resources that people before me didn't have.

• 1:09:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And the GPS, everyone knows where you are all the time.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:09:54Rich Roll?

  And RV.

• 1:09:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:09:55Rich Roll?

  So did you have like, what was the cruise situation? Did you have multiple people coming in and out, or like one guy who was with you the whole time?

• 1:10:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So I, I hired a guy. So Eric Bells is his name. He, and that was the other thing was like, how do you get crew? So like, I had to figure it out. So I, uh, my friend Carl Meltzer, I don't know if you know him, like Speedgo.

• 1:10:14Rich Roll?

  I've never met him, but I know who he is, of course.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, he set the record on the Appalachian Trail and, uh, he's run like the Pony Express Trail. And so, um, I talked to him and it was, it was lucky, man. It was like, my buddy from Michigan State said like, hey, my friend, uh, cruised people. And I was like, whatever, you know, like this guy cruised people at like Mother of the Woods, like 10K or something. And he's like, no, no, he cruised like real people. And I was like, okay, sure. Give me his name. And so I call Eric and I'm like, hey, man, uh, I heard you crew people. He's like, yeah, I crew people. And I was like, oh, cool. Like, who have you crewed? Like, what, what are we doing here? And, uh, he's like, yeah, I crewed like Carl Meltzer. I was like, really? And, uh, so I text Carl. I'm like, Carl, do you know some guy named Eric?

• 1:10:57Rich Roll?

  Is this guy lying?

• 1:10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he's like, dude, Bells? Yeah, hire him. I was like, okay, cool. I was like, oh, okay. And so.

• 1:11:05Rich Roll?

  So you got the guy?

• 1:11:05Speaker 01

  So I got the guy. And then my dad, it was just gonna be my dad and I. Um, and then my brother and I were like, dude, that's not gonna work. And my sister, and she's like, you know, you can't just be with dad by yourself for like, two months. And I was like, okay, we should get somebody else. And so I was so glad I did, because, I mean, my dad's awesome, but like, that's a lot of work for anyone. Like, just one person, like, that's just impossible. So like, I had my dad, uh, Eric, and, uh, my dad's friend. Uh, and he and my dad would kind of like be there and not be there, but Eric was always there. So he was kind of my crew chief.

• 1:11:45Rich Roll?

  And you had some scraps with people throwing hamburgers at you and trucks trying to drive you off the road? Like, what was the, you know, what were some of the?

• 1:11:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Traumatic. Uh, that was definitely traumatic. Like, I think every day there was like drama as far as like. Every day? Yeah, every day. Um, with people, you know, just, I think a lot of it times, it's just people being surprised that you're out there and it makes them uncomfortable and then they kind of get mad that they feel uncomfortable and then they're like, alright, well, I'm gonna, you know, buzz you a little bit closer than I have to, or have you ever been cold rolled? What does that mean? Oh my god, it's this thing. I didn't even know it existed until I got to Indiana, but basically like a diesel truck, they can get up next to you and they downshift and it blows like this. All the exhaust comes out?

• 1:12:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, the black smoke comes out and if they do it right, they can actually spray like diesel out the back, uh, of the like exhaust at you. I did not know that was a thing, but it is a thing. So doing that on purpose? Yes, like doing that on purpose. Oh, it's, it was crazy. I had one little old lady, it was like six, I'd start every day at like six in the morning and go to like, try to end about six at night, so like 12 hours of running or walking or whatever. And it was like 6:30 in the morning, this little old lady like comes around the corner, sees me and just flicks me the bird like, I'm like, it's like 6:30 in the morning, man, like, how, like what, how could your day be so bad already that, you know, you're

• 1:13:15Speaker 01

  just in a bad mood about something, so, but I've, I've said this to a few people, like, and I think you mentioned this, but like for every, you know, two or three people that were terrible or, or, you know, not happy that you're out there, there was 20 or 30 people that were so stoked that you were there and, you know, we had people come out like that had been looking forward to this, like since I started, you know, and this one guy had passed away on the operating table, came, got revived, came back and decided he wanted to run with us. So like, he showed up and I guess he had like told us at the beginning like, hey, I just want to run a mile with you. And I was like, dude, you're going to run as many miles as you want. So like, why don't you set the pace?

• 1:13:59Speaker 01

  So like that whole morning, like he set the pace and I just stayed behind him and he ran 10K with us.

• 1:14:05Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:14:06Speaker 01

  He had not been able to like, he wouldn't, he wasn't even alive like three months before that. Like he passed away and came back and we had another guy with AFib that came out to West Virginia and looked for the steepest climbs on my route because he's like, I can't run with you that long. But he just wanted to hike with us up one of the climbs, like stuff like that.

• 1:14:26Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:14:27Speaker 01

  Dude, it was, yeah, it was everything I hoped it would be.

• 1:14:30Rich Roll?

  So cool. Yeah. I mean, I just know from watching Ricky's documentary, like the most, you know, heartwarming, you know, sequences are when he has these incredible encounters with random people, like the guy wanted to give him money.

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Yes. Oh, my God, we had that so many times.

• 1:14:45Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was amazing. And we actually had a woman who sent her mom and dad, who they, she knew they were driving out on Route 50. She sent them to find us and to donate money, but like they weren't sure they wanted to donate the money. Um, so they, they were like quizzing us about where it was going to go and stuff. And I was like, man, if, if you don't want to, it's fine.

• 1:15:10Rich Roll?

  Where exactly is this $40 gonna end up? At Dairy King?

• 1:15:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I was like, it's fine. You don't have to.

• 1:15:18Rich Roll?

  Vegan ice cream.

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:15:20Rich Roll?

  World Vision Can Wait.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  No, actually there is a better story. So on the, have you ever ridden the KD Trail?

• 1:15:26Rich Roll?

  Uh uh.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  It's in Missouri. It's, it's basically like, um, the CNO Canal, but it's in Missouri. And what's so cool is like, and you, you probably see this when you go places like, I think one of the things I love the most about our country is like, people are so proud about where they live and they take so much pride and they have so much reverence for it. Like if you go anywhere near Missouri, they'll tell you about how cool the KD Trail is. And like, they think it's like the most unique thing in the world and it is pretty unique, but it's just the CNO Canal. It's like basically what we have in DC, you know, it goes from. Georgetown to Hagerstown, right?

• 1:16:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:16:00Speaker 01

  And so like, it's awesome, but it's like, it's similar to what there is around the world. But like, they had like, the head of the park service come out and meet me. They had like, the mayor of Jefferson City, which is the capital of Missouri, come out. But like, one of my favorite experiences is like, I had these little old lady and man come out. And the guy's like, hey, you know, we want to support you. Our son's like a big fan, you know, we came out, they like, you know, waddle up and they're like, hokas, and they're like, we were hokas. I was like, no way, that's awesome. And he reaches in his wallet to give me a $50 bill. And she reaches over and slaps his hand. She's like, no, no, no.

• 1:16:45Speaker 01

  And, and, and so he, you know, gives me like a $10 bill. And what I loved about that interaction was like, it didn't matter that, you know, they didn't give us, you know, 50 bucks or whatever. What was, you could just see like, that that's been their relationship. And like, he's the like, big spender, you know, like, he's like-

• 1:17:02Rich Roll?

  He's coming from the heart.

• 1:17:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:03Rich Roll?

  He's like, the head.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. Yeah, but like, they make such a little perfect couple, you know? And like, those interactions like, is something like, so unique and something that you wouldn't get a glimpse of someone's life if, if I hadn't, you know, been doing it in that way.

• 1:17:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you ran into some transcon runners along the way, right? Like, other people that were doing it or coming from the other direction?

• 1:17:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. I, uh, I ran, well, I had two friends doing it. So, Richard Donovan, who does the seven marathon, seven day, seven continents, he was doing it. And so, we actually met in Missouri, like, right off the Katy Trail. He was going east to west, and I was going west to east. Uh, and then I had another friend that was going kind of like, a northern route. But I had a guy that I ran into, again, I think it was in maybe Kansas? And it was in the middle of nowhere, dude. It was like 11 o'clock in the morning, like- Between two towns, but like far, like 20 miles and it was just kind of hot, like 95 degrees. And I see this guy shirt off, stroller, like, I'm like, there's no way that guy's

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  just out for a run, like around his block, you know, like.

• 1:18:14Rich Roll?

  Like out in the middle of nowhere with a stroller.

• 1:18:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. I'm just like, that's gotta be another trans con runner. And I was like, Jennifer, I'll call you back. And I like run across the street and I'm like, dude, are you running across the country? He's like, yeah. Are you running across the country? I'm like, yeah. And it was like, dude, I needed to see somebody else doing this. And I was like, where'd you come from? He's like Norfolk. And I was like, oh, no way. Norfolk, Virginia? He's like, yeah. I was like, how long ago did you leave? And he's like, I don't know, 15 days. And I was like, what? I was so excited because I was like, going across the western states, like you could be in Nevada for like, seven or eight days.

• 1:18:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  And so I was watching my friends go from east coast to west coast and they'd be like, oh, I'm in Massachusetts. Now I'm in Pennsylvania. Now I'm in Illinois. And I'm like, I'm still in Nevada. Like, and then going across Kansas, like everyone was like, you're gonna hate your life. And I actually loved it. I thought it was amazing, but it's a humongous state. Like, I was running across Kansas for nine days. Like, just insane.

• 1:19:16Rich Roll?

  Never ending, never ending. Yeah. I can't remember who it was. It was either Robbie or Hella, talking about like, once you, when you go west to east, after you get over the Rockies and then you're going, you know, you have these long, flat expanses, et cetera. But you kind of think it's this slow downhill all the way to the east coast. And then you hit like the mountains around West Virginia and it just destroys you. Right? So I don't know if Route 50, like where that actually, you know, that tracks with what these guys were talking about, but they said that was like a soul crusher because you kind of, you're getting really close and then it's like this wall that you hit.

• 1:19:54Speaker 01

  That's totally true. Yeah. And I knew that going in just because I'm from around here. And I think so many people like, think the Rockies are so imposing and they really are like, there was big days and big climbs. But the little climbs, I mean, that's what makes Barkley so hard. Like I've done that race a couple of times.

• 1:20:11Rich Roll?

  That's the one thing that, yeah, you haven't cracked that one.

• 1:20:14Speaker 01

  No, dude, not even close. Like I haven't even made it a single loop yet in time. So, but like, I know, like. The short little climbs of Appalachia and East Coast are legit and I knew that going in and I was like, I think my route had 130 some thousand feet of elevation gain and I got to like West Virginia and I was like at 90,000 I was like, well, there's, there's 30,000 feet coming up in the next couple of days. 30% of your grade remaining. What, what, what was the hardest point? I mean, did you have like some breaking moments or? Yeah, I mean, I think there were a couple of hard parts, like I'd never been away from my family that long. So like that was really hard for me.

• 1:20:56Speaker 01

  Like I wasn't expecting it to be that hard just from traveling the world and being gone on all these adventures. I wasn't expecting to miss them as much as I did. That was, that was hard, but like as far as like physically, like each and every day was so hard, like that last like 10 miles every day was like finishing 100 miler, like it was really, really hard. I was not expecting that. I figured kind of what we were saying earlier is like, as you go, you're just going to get stronger. And stronger and stronger and stronger. What I didn't realize is like, the longer you go, you're getting so strong, but you're also just getting so much more tired. So it's like the strength, it's almost balanced out or like in some days it could

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  be an kind of unequal, but I think the worst thing was I had about 500 miles to go and a truck veered over the white line and tried to like scare me, hit me, I'm not sure. And I had to, I was in the middle of a stride and I had to stop running because he got that close. Like if I would have kept swinging my leg, I would have crashed into his bumper. And so I had to like kind of veer off the side of the road. And at that moment I felt my hamstring pop and I was like, oh man, this is not good. And I still had 10 miles to go for the day and everyone's like, oh, you should just get in the car. And I was like, no, man, I'm trying to average like 52 miles a day. So I was like, I'm just going to walk it in.

• 1:22:21Speaker 01

  And that was a really low point. Like I couldn't put weight on my, on my right leg. I

• 1:22:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I was like so mad because I'd been so disciplined, like every day not overdoing it, you know, taking care of my feet, taking my socks off every time I come into the car, like putting on sunscreen, like putting on chapstick, like doing all the little annoying things to make sure that I get there and to have somebody kind of ruin that or potentially ruin that for like no reason that I could see other than me just being on the road. Like I was really just kind of mad at the world and life and, and yeah, I didn't, I didn't know if I was going to be able to run.

• 1:23:04Rich Roll?

  So how did you bounce back from that? Just get, get in the car, get massage or how did that get worked out so you could bounce back and get back on it?

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  Well, so instead of like it taking like two hours to go 10 miles, it took like three and a half hours to finish it off for that day. I got in the car, I called my personal trainer, my guy Jesse, and I was like, Jesse, what do you think? He's like, is it black and blue? I'm like, I don't know. I, I can't, I can't put weight on it. I can't even like get out of, you know, like, I don't know if you've ever been that hurt where you can't like take your shorts off. You're like, this really, really hurts. I, I basically like cried myself to bed basically and like was like, I, I don't know what to do. Like I don't want to, he's like, don't stretch it anymore. Don't really do anything if it swells

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  up. Like he's like, try to put some ice on it, which I did, but he's like, I don't know if that's going to really help. And a lot of times, I don't know if you do this, but if I turn my ankle or stuff, I actually just leave it and don't put ice on it because I want the blood flow to pump through there. Uh, or you do like a little bit of ice and then let the blood come kind of rushing back. So you get, and get like that burst of blood flow to it. And I woke up the next day and it was still kind of hurting as I was like taping my feet and putting my shoes on. And I was just like, I'm just going to walk for the first hour and see how it goes. And then I came to like a kind of a slight downhill and I was like, well, we're going to see how this goes. And I just started running, like shuffling, really not really running. And I was like, I don't feel it hurting. And then.

• 1:24:40Speaker 01

  I continued to run the rest of the day and then if I'd run, I don't know if you've ever done like a hamstring, but when I've done it, like if you push too hard, like it starts to twinge. As soon as it did that, I would just start walking and I just did that for the whole day.

• 1:24:56Rich Roll?

  And it just sort of sorted itself out.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:59Rich Roll?

  You're lucky.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  Dude, so lucky.

• 1:25:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  Like, I was just thinking like 500 miles of walking, this is gonna take, instead of taking 500 miles would be about 10 days, this is gonna take 20 days, right? Or more, like I'm

• 1:25:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:25:12Speaker 01

  Like, that's just gonna mean like, I'm not gonna finish anywhere close to where I wanna finish. But I, I mean, I felt like I could still walk on it, but like, I was like, oh, this is just gonna be terrible.

• 1:25:24Rich Roll?

  What I extract from that is that the little things are the big things. It's all about like, you know, the fact that you race so much that, you know, for the most part, without you've been able to like sidestep injuries and, you know, have all these incredible achievements. It's really a function of consistency, like waking up early, showing up every single day, paying attention to those small things, the details, whether it's taping your toes or making sure you got lube in your, you know, in your armpit or whatever, you know, your, your inner thigh or whatever it is, like those tiny things. This effort to, you know, control all the variables that are within your control. And yet at the same time, in the story you just told, like you can't anticipate everything.

• 1:26:08Rich Roll?

  There's always gonna be something that can derail you, but when you're paying attention to as many of the things that are within your control as possible, that's really kind of the, the path towards achieving. Achieving the big goals are about like doing the tiny little things every day.

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, the annoying little things, like the things you don't wanna do, right? Like, no one wants to wake up an hour early to tape their toes. Like, at least I don't, like, that's not what like makes me excited. Or like making sure that you've gone to the bathroom three times before you show up to the start line. And it's not like I started out doing it this way, like, I think, I think one of my favorite talks that as far as like the audience was like, I was at the San Francisco Marathon and they're like, you know, you've done this talk a million times, I'm sure, where it's like, you know, tell me your race day tips. And it's like, you know, wake up two hours before the race and, you know, eat and then, you know, what do you eat? A bagel or whatever it is, right? And I was like, you know, I'm gonna do a different talk today. I'm gonna tell you all the

• 1:27:10Speaker 01

  things I've done wrong. Like, so I've, the reason I can tell you what to do is because I've done everything wrong. Like, I've shown up with races with no shoes before and like, had to borrow my buddy's shoes because I was like, oh, I'm for sure, put them in my bag. And so now if people follow me on Instagram, they see like, lay out my kit the night before because I've showed up without safety pins. I've showed up without the right chip, you know, in South Africa where you have to buy the chip ahead of time, you know, I've rucked up to the race without lube in the Gobi Desert. And I was like, knocked out of the race because I had gastrointestinal problems. And had it not been for some guy on a moped driving by with like diaper cream,

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  I would have been, you know, still in the Gobi Desert somewhere. So like, like, I learned all the, the things to do because I've done all the things wrong in the past. And so, like, if you keep making mistakes and you don't learn from them, that's a problem. But if you realize like, oh, maybe I should lay my kit out the night before so that I, you know, don't show up without

• 1:28:13Rich Roll?

  Right. It's no big mystery. It's like, basic, common sense kind of things.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:18Rich Roll?

  Like, planning ahead.

• 1:28:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:28:20Rich Roll?

  But like, going beneath the surface on all of that, like, I'm, I'm interested, that stuff's all fine. But like, what is it that's, that's like, driving you? Like, what's behind all of this that is compelling you to tackle these challenges? Like, what are you trying to learn about yourself? Or what is it that you're kind of exploring internally? Like, what is the, you know, what is the, the teaching that you're extracting from all of these adventures?

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  I think, at the base level, is I want to see if I can do it. I want to see if it's possible for me. And if it's not possible now, is it something that I want to invest in that it will be possible in the future? So

• 1:29:01Rich Roll?

  But why is it important to you to try to see if you can do these things?

• 1:29:06Speaker 01

  I don't know. I think, I think I'm always questing to be better. Like, I think I wanna, I wanna get the best out of myself. And, and I, and I feel like, right now, it's through these kind of big, ridiculous challenges. And I think

• 1:29:24Speaker 01

  I want to, I want to showcase for people that it is possible. Like, I, I didn't come from a big, you know, endurance background. I didn't know any of these things when I first started. Like, I started like so many other people with like a little goal. And then from there, I was like, maybe I can do something else. And, you know, eventually I'll reach something that I can't do. And then you have to decide if you want to, if you want to keep going and try to do it. Like, right now, like, yeah, like Barclay, right? Like, I know that, like, it's possible. People have done it, but like, is it possible for me?

• 1:29:58Rich Roll?

  Why is that so, you know, intractable? Like, what is it about that race that just cracks everyone?

• 1:30:06Speaker 01

  I think the thing, well, for me, I don't have a lot of the, the, the best skills for it. Like, I think, like, you have to be really, there, there's a couple of ways I think you can do it. Or like, it looks to me that you can do it. Like, you can just keep going to the race so that you just put the time in. Like, I, I said, it's kind of like pledging, right? Like, you just keep showing up and like, eventually, you get hazed enough where you are like, "Okay, I know where the book is and, or I know what, I know what he means when he says, like, the coal road, or like, go past the sofa on the lily of the valley." Like, I know what all the, like, flowers are that he's talking about. And so I've learned the lexicon, I've put my time in.

• 1:30:49Speaker 01

  I know all the candy trails, like, you know, the regular trails. And I know what Bird Mountain looks like. And then you just have to get lucky with weather. Like, I think the biggest thing for Barclay is like getting decent weather. Because if you get the fog that comes in a couple of times, when I've been there, like, I'm not seeing you. Like, and so the only way to get through it is to know the course really well, be really incredible at navigation, and get lucky with weather. And then you have to have the fitness.

• 1:31:18Rich Roll?

  So is that something you're going to go back to?

• 1:31:21Speaker 01

  Uh, I'd like to, yeah. I mean, I think, um, but if you don't want to do the work, I don't think you should take a spot from somebody that's willing to do the work. So like, if you're just going there... Just to like, say that it's like, oh, I did Barclay. Like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna take someone's spot unless I'm ready to like, fully commit.

• 1:31:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So what are the, the big goals that are looming out there that you're thinking about right now?

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think this is actually one of the hardest things, right? Like, coming off of like, a run across the country, like, everyone's like, oh, what's next? And, and so my pat answer that, and it's something that I wanted to do actually before the run across the country is the Appalachian Trail. That's like, really near and dear to my heart. And like, that's something that's gripping in that it's feels impossible. But like, when I was running across the country and I ran past the distance, like, I don't know if the other people that you talked to, I don't remember if they had said this or not, but like, when I had little checkpoints, like, I went a thousand miles, or I went 2,000 miles, like, or crossed into a state, like, you get a kind of a boost.

• 1:32:28Rich Roll?

  A little rush, yeah.

• 1:32:29Speaker 01

  I got a huge rush when I was like, I just ran the entire Appalachian Trail distance, you know? Like, not the vertical, right? Because the vertical was like, way more than what I was doing. But like, just to know that you can do that distance, that was impactful for me. And that was something where I always like, said to my wife, like, hey, if I ever get fired from my job, I'm gonna do the Appalachian Trail. And now I'm like, the owner of the company.

• 1:32:53Rich Roll?

  You keep doing these crazy things, you're never there. But you're a partner, right? Can they even fire you?

• 1:32:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I'm actually one of the owners now. So like, I have to fire myself.

• 1:33:02Rich Roll?

  You might go out of business before they can fire you, but like...

• 1:33:05Speaker 01

  Right. So like, so like, the Appalachian Trail, and then...

• 1:33:09Rich Roll?

  You're the, you're the reason why we have, you know, all these issues with, uh, supply chain, right? It turns out, it has nothing to do with the pandemic. It's all because you're just not at your desk.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, right.

• 1:33:21Rich Roll?

  All these cargo ships are like, you know, trying to get into port.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  Where is Mike?

• 1:33:26Rich Roll?

  We can't, we can't come into Long Beach, because we can't get Mike on the phone.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, no. No, that was actually great. Like, that was actually one of my biggest fears, was telling our big client, like, it's a company called Merce Line Limited, who's like, I don't know.

• 1:33:40Rich Roll?

  They're like, the biggest, right?

• 1:33:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, they are the biggest, yeah. And so like, I was like, oh, man, I really wanna do this. And they're like, that's amazing, we wanna help you. And I was just freaking out about that conversation. And so, I was really happy that they came on board. But yeah, like, as far as goals, like, the Appalachian Trail, and then I have this ridiculous interest in... And this is really far out there for me, but like doing like you've done some of the big swims, but like a like a swim around Manhattan, I think would be kind of cool. Like people do that one.

• 1:34:11Rich Roll?

  I love that one. That's, that's definitely on my list.

• 1:34:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, like I think, and I'm not a good swimmer, like you're a good swimmer. Like for me, my longest swim-

• 1:34:20Rich Roll?

  But that's the beginner's mind thing. Like you would want to do a long swim and you're not a swimmer.

• 1:34:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm very bad at swimming as far as like form and like, I think the longest swim I've done is three miles and it took me longer than running like a marathon. Like it was like two hours and 25 minutes to go three miles, like in the ocean, but like still. And I really wanted to do the nine mile swim, but I freaked out. Like I was like, oh, you have to get a crew and like, you know, you need like a boat next to you or whatever. And then I want to row across the Atlantic. Like that's something like, and so I've been talking to a friend in Arlington that I won't name because he like, hasn't told his wife. Cause I like called him about it and I was like, dude, do you still want to do that? And he's like, yeah, let me go outside though. I gotta walk the dog because I don't want to tell my wife yet.

• 1:35:07Rich Roll?

  Well, I got a few guys that you can talk to about that who have some experience with that kind of thing.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:12Rich Roll?

  I don't know anything about that world.

• 1:35:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I think that would be really cool, especially like, that's like for real adventure. Like, and I feel like that's like what I'm looking for. Like those adventures, like, and there's a lot of other things. Like I want to like climb Everest, but like my wife and I have a deal where I can't do that until the kids are 18. So.

• 1:35:31Rich Roll?

  That's a good rule.

• 1:35:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:33Rich Roll?

  I think. I saw a quote where you said, you were asked this question and you said, "I have so many things I want to tackle next. I want to row across the Atlantic and I want to run the Appalachian Trail. I want to do the Pacific Crest Trail, run across all the continents, and then also run on the moon."

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:35:51Rich Roll?

  You actually said that.

• 1:35:52Speaker 01

  Yes. Yes.

• 1:35:54Rich Roll?

  So you're dreaming big, my friend.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  Dude, well, I think if you just keep putting out, so I've been saying that for a long time about running on the moon, or like I would take Mars, but Mars is a little bit further away. But yeah, I think, I think that could be really cool. And I, I mean, it's not possible yet, but I don't know if it's going to be that far off.

• 1:36:15Rich Roll?

  Time will tell.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:17Rich Roll?

  Well, ask Jeff Bezos.

• 1:36:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, or Elon, yeah.

• 1:36:20Rich Roll?

  Um, where does becoming a professional pickleball player fit into all of this? Cause that seems to be the thing you're most fired up about right now.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I'm so lit up on that. Yeah, I just, um, was able to partner with a company called Yola. So they're sponsoring the best players in the world. And so a guy named Ben Johns.

• 1:36:40Rich Roll?

  You are a professional, then you're a professional.

• 1:36:43Speaker 01

  Well,

• 1:36:44Rich Roll?

  You're sponsored pickleball player.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  But it's very, it's very, um, early stages for sure. And I'm, I'm definitely like, I don't know if you know, like how the rankings go in pickleball.

• 1:36:55Rich Roll?

  I know nothing.

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  So it's like tennis. It's like 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5. 5 is like, you're really good, almost pro, and then kind of above 5, you're pro. So I'm like 3.5, 4. So like, you know, very early stages. But yeah, I'm, I'm spending a lot of time playing pickleball and drilling and like, working. I'm with a group called the Arlington Iron Paddles and there's like 70 people in the group and everyone wants to be a pro. So like, we're working really hard. So like, I'm learning shots and, you know, meeting people to drill at like 7 o'clock in the morning, paying like $20 on the weekend to go get my butt kicked in these little tournaments that we're hosting and.

• 1:37:36Rich Roll?

  It's weird how that's become such a thing in such a short period of time. Like it went from nothing to, you know, I, I have so many friends who are obsessed with playing it. Like, how does that hap- like, it's weird how culture happens that way.

• 1:37:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:37:49Rich Roll?

  It's just this thing percolates up and then suddenly we all agree that like, this is a cool thing and we all should be doing it.

• 1:37:55Speaker 01

  Yes, it's so weird. And especially when I first heard of it, I was like, oh, that's that sport the old people play, right?

• 1:38:02Rich Roll?

  Right, like paddleboard tennis or whatever.

• 1:38:04Speaker 01

  Exactly. Or, or like ping pong or something, or, or bocce. Like I play in a bocce league also, like, um.

• 1:38:12Rich Roll?

  Of course you do.

• 1:38:13Speaker 01

  What? Yeah.

• 1:38:16Rich Roll?

  Um, I don't understand the time schedule, like how you fit all these things in.

• 1:38:21Speaker 01

  It's, it's, it's, I don't know. Somehow it works. Um, but.

• 1:38:27Speaker 01

  As far as like pickleball, like it's, it's easy to learn but hard to master. It's kind of like, I like, I don't know if you saw, but I also like play chess and I'm like trying to get better in chess. And so like, I, I, you know, find these little hobbies and, and kind of go deep as I can on them. And with pickleball, like, I feel like it's just, it's almost, I guess Josh and I were talking about this too, is like somebody is like, the first time you hear something, you're kind of like, it's in your consciousness, but you don't really notice it. And it's like, takes seven times until you kind of realize that you have seen it before. Like, it's almost like you buy a car and then all of a sudden you see that car everywhere, you know? And I feel like that's with pickleball. It's like, you know, somebody was playing it and then all of a sudden LeBron James buys a team, or like Drew

• 1:39:11Speaker 01

  Brees has a team, or Tom Brady's buying a team. And you're like, oh, this is, you know, a thing. But it's been around for a while and.

• 1:39:19Rich Roll?

  Right. But it, it's having its moment right now.

• 1:39:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:39:23Rich Roll?

  It's so hilarious that you're pursuing this. Like, most runners, especially elite runners, would, would not only like, not be interested in that, would, would like avoid it like the plague, because it just feels like a recipe for injury. Like, you know what I mean? Like, there's so many, all the lateral movements and the, the quick bursts and all of that. Like, it would be so easy for you to, you know, pull a hamstring or calf muscle or something like that. But you're like, no.

• 1:39:50Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:39:50Rich Roll?

  Do this.

• 1:39:51Speaker 01

  Well, and I think that it's actually good, because we do spend so much time going straight, like, in, unless you're trail running, and then you're getting a little bit more of that. But like, I think it's great. Like, I, I've noticed that it's, it's made me more limber and it's good. I think a lot of people that are in endurance sports maybe don't come from like a racket sport background, or like a, you know, ball and sport background. And so like, that for me is fun too, because like, growing up playing lacrosse, like I do have those like kind of skills. Like, what's annoying though is when you see someone come from tennis and they're like, oh, I've been playing for like two weeks and they can make all the shots and like, they're making you look stupid because they like, just know how to hit topspin.

• 1:40:35Speaker 01

  Like, I am struggling. Like, I really want to like, be able to hit topspin and like. I see someone with tennis background and they're like, oh, of course you can hit topspin.

• 1:40:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, you're, you're very humble in saying like, I didn't come from an endurance background and I don't have any great gifts, but usually people who are in endurance sports, part of the reason they're in it is because they have no eye-hand coordination, which is, I would count myself as one of those people, like, but you're a ball sports guy first, right? Developed this huge endurance engine, but also happens to be really fast and can like hit a ball and play chess. Like your neurochemistry, like your neural network is extremely diverse. And I'm interested in like how all those things feed each other. Like, is that a conscious thing? Like, I'm going to do all these things because they make me better at the thing that I'm most passionate about? Or is this just like a

• 1:41:28Rich Roll?

  reflection of your general curiosity to be kind of a renaissance person?

• 1:41:34Speaker 01

  I mean, I think there is curiosity, but I think they all help each other. Like, if you want to be a good chess player, like you have to be logical. Like, there's no, like chess is a game, but it's really not. It's like, everything's known. Like, there's no, like, I think, I don't, you didn't have Annie Duke on, right? Like, the professional...

• 1:41:53Rich Roll?

  I know who she is, though, yeah.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, she's amazing, but like, a game like Texas Hold'em or something, like, there's chance involved. Like chess, like, all the moves are known. Like, there's no surprises. It's like, if you make a bad move, like, the computer will tell you, you made a bad, you made a bad move. And so, like, but the same is like, and I think you know this, like, if you push too hard in a race, you might know that's a bad move, but it might be the right move because there might only be 800 meters left, right? But if you push too hard at the beginning of the race, like, there's going to be consequences. And I think, like, in so many of the things that we do, like... And the things that I'm trying to do is like, hopefully they're impacting what else I'm doing in a positive way, right?

• 1:42:38Speaker 01

  So like, the chess is helping me with like, decision making and my endurance is helping me with my chess. And then the pickleball is helping me with like lateral movement and also just having fun. Like, it's just really fun. And it's like, also like, I get to learn like a whole new lexicon. Like, I get to learn, like, there's so much drama in it, too. Like, the pickleballers don't like the tennis people. Like, I didn't know this was a thing. Like, the tennis people don't like the pickleballers and like, trying to find courts and like, yeah. But it's like, someone and I, we were talking, it's like, when the skiers first had like, snowboarders coming to the mountains. And they're like, but this is where we play, you know? And it's like, why can't we all play?

• 1:43:22Speaker 01

  Like, it's not gonna be worse for you, I don't think. Like, why can't we get along? And then it's like, you know, don't hit it hard at this person because if you do, they're gonna be mad. And like, so it's been fun to kind of navigate that landscape also. So I think, I like to keep things interesting and fresh. And I think, you know, pickleball is allowing me to do that. And I'm seeing just how much, like, interest there is in it. But also, like, there's so much skill involved. Like, it seems like it's, you just kind of knock the ball around. But then you watch the people at the top level. Like, I was just at a pro tournament this past weekend with the Yola team. And like, just watching them at that level, it's like, wow, those guys are incredible athletes.

• 1:44:08Rich Roll?

  Well, the joy piece, like, the fun piece seems to be really important, like a driving force. And also, like, the friendships and the community, right? Like, the ultra-runner landscape is littered with lone wolves. You know, people who, you know, like, go, they're going into the pain cave and having their own private, you know, kind of experience with what it means to push their own limits. And certainly that's part of it, of course, when you're running across the country, you're alone a lot. But what animates you really seems to me to be like the people. And, you know, the adventure that happens when you're doing it in community.

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  Oh, for sure. I think that, like, when I set out to do the run across the country, like, I actually postponed it because of injury, but also because when I did start to feel better, like, I didn't want to do it if... People couldn't join me like during COVID. So like I waited until I thought it was appropriate for people to be able to come out and be a part of it because I really did want that Forrest Gump experience where people are like, oh my God, he's coming through my town. Like I'm gonna, you know, call in sick to-

• 1:45:14Rich Roll?

  And the beard was so out of control.

• 1:45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh my God, it was out of control last week. My wife's like, you gotta cut it before you go see Rich.

• 1:45:22Rich Roll?

  I love it.

• 1:45:23Speaker 01

  No, I, I, I really enjoy it too. And I was just, um, yeah, that's, that's exactly what I was hoping for. Like it would move people to, like I had people like flying out from like Richmond to Indiana to run with me or, um, you know, somebody from Indiana ran with me and had so much fun. They came to finish the last day with me. And so like just to have people like have so much fun that they're like telling their friends to come the next day or they show up again. Like, I mean, that was just epically cool. And like, and I had so many people, we had like special buffs made for it. And like if someone did an ultra with us, we would give them a buff like, but we wouldn't tell anyone. So like, you know, like I had so many first time ultra people,

• 1:46:05Speaker 01

  you know, that ran their first ultra along the journey with me. And that was just like, man, I can't believe that you allowed me to share that experience with you and you were part of my experience. But like, I just, you know, just to see somebody do something that they didn't think that they could do. So cool.

• 1:46:22Rich Roll?

  And then the, the kind of downstream effect of that on their life. Cause once they've done something like that, it totally expands your perspective on what you're capable of. And like, not just as an athlete in all areas of your life.

• 1:46:35Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. And it's, and it's not just them, but then their family knows that it's possible too. Like my family, when I first started, they didn't know that people could run 50 miles. And now like, they know people run 50 miles. They know people run across continents. Like, they know people run in all different places. Like, that's what it was so cool. Like, I think one of my best experiences, like just two weeks ago, my son and I ran a half marathon.

• 1:46:59Rich Roll?

  And like- Was that his first half marathon?

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  It was his first half marathon.

• 1:47:02Rich Roll?

  He looks like he's like, I don't know, 15, something like that?

• 1:47:04Speaker 01

  16. Good call. Yeah. And so we were just, I was like, oh, I'm going to be running the Baltimore marathon. And he's like, oh, I'll run the half. And I was like, wait, what? And I just was like, wow, this is like- When he was just a little baby, I was like, someday, maybe we'll run together, you know? And like, just to have that moment. But then to get to share it with like, his cross-country friend, Lucas ran, and my brother ran. And then we had all the people in Baltimore, because I've run that race in, I don't know, seven or eight times. And like, just to be out there cheering for us, and like, us getting to cheer for them, and just to be part of the community again. Like, I missed that during COVID, and I missed, I missed that chance to reconnect with people, and that really

• 1:47:49Speaker 01

  feeds me, too. Like, I've said it before, like, I'm like, an emotional vampire. Like, I just suck that energy in, and like, use it. And it was great to be out there.

• 1:47:57Rich Roll?

  How old is your, you have two boys, right?

• 1:47:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, two boys. Pierce is 16, and Grant's 13. And so, like, three weeks ago, we did, all did a 5K together, and Grant ran. Grant's, like, been playing on the freshman football team, and he's an eighth grader, so like, he's getting, you know, knocked around by the freshmen. And so, he started to go and do some CrossFit with me, and he did his first 5K, like, his first legit 5K, so.

• 1:48:22Rich Roll?

  And in terms of kind of parenting active kids, like, you don't strike me as a Joe DeSena type, who's like, setting the alarm up, and like, dousing his kids with cold water at 4:00 in the morning to get them out of bed. Like, you're more of a, you know, attraction type? Like, I'm just gonna set the example, and let them make their own choice? Or how do you, you know, kind of get your kids excited about doing the things that you love?

• 1:48:47Speaker 01

  That's exactly it. Yeah. I mean, Joe's a good friend, and so, like, his style is different than mine, for sure.

• 1:48:57Speaker 01

  But yeah, I want them to come to it through their own means, and like, I want to be there. Like, if, and I think that was so awesome about, like, having that base of fitness. Like, you could do the same thing. Like, if your, your kids were like, "Hey, we want to run an ultra with you," you'd be like, "All right, let's go. Which one do you want to do? Like, the bulldog one, right out back?" You know?

• 1:49:16Rich Roll?

  They have not asked, they have not made that request yet, though.

• 1:49:19Speaker 01

  But like, it's there, right?

• 1:49:21Rich Roll?

  So far disinterested.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:22Rich Roll?

  Anyway, go ahead.

• 1:49:23Speaker 01

  But I thought it was actually funny when you were saying like, you were doing a promotion for like, just eggs and like, I just started eating those and you're like, but my kids actually like eat them and like, I think that that's cool, like that you expose them to these things and if they choose to be interested, that's great, but at least they know it's there, right?

• 1:49:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:42Speaker 01

  And so like with our kids, like, I want them to know that it's possible, like, I want them to know it's out there and if they express interest, then like, I want to try to make it happen for them. So like, they're super into gaming and so we got them like gaming computers and we've taken them to like professional gaming, like, they're really into this game and we went to Montreal to watch like the world championships. So that they know what it's like at the highest level, right? So like, man, if you want to do that, that would be amazing, like, it doesn't have to be, you know, what we're into, but we want to kind of facilitate whatever they're gravitating to.

• 1:50:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Your job as the parent is to kind of feel, is to notice when a spark of inspiration hits and to kind of fill that gap and support that. That's sort of the way that I look at it.

• 1:50:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:25Rich Roll?

  And it generally doesn't come in the form that you would like it to come or expect, you know?

• 1:50:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:31Rich Roll?

  Cause it's rigged that way and there's something cool about that, like you being a beginner's mind, like, oh, now here's your opportunity to become a gamer.

• 1:50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:39Rich Roll?

  Mike, this is your other professional career that awaits you.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  Well, and-

• 1:50:42Rich Roll?

  You can do it with your kids.

• 1:50:44Speaker 01

  Well, and, and so I have, uh, done a lot of gaming and so like, I was like, the kid that like broke the Atari when it first came out, like I flipped like Pac-Man and like, uh, I used to live in a group house and like, after I'd finished my runs, I would get on like one of those little trampolines and like play Madden for like four or five hours, just jumping on the trampoline, you know, like playing my brother and our roommate. So like, I'm a huge, uh, proponent of gaming, like I think it's, so many people are like, oh, screen time limited or whatever, and I think like, most of us are on our screens all the time anyhow, and it's just getting them ready for what they're, you know, gonna face in the real world and they have to make their own decisions, you know?

• 1:51:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I remember as a kid, we would go to Rehoboth Beach in the summer.

• 1:51:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:51:33Rich Roll?

  I would go to the arcade on the boardwalk and just spend hours playing Space Invader.

• 1:51:38Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, I'm older than you, but the old school games.

• 1:51:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:51:44Rich Roll?

  Back in the day. And that's, that's where my relationship with gaming begins and ends.

• 1:51:48Speaker 01

  Oh, really? You, you're not gaming anymore?

• 1:51:51Rich Roll?

  No. No.

• 1:51:54Speaker 01

  Not even on Tesla, like when it's charging?

• 1:51:58Rich Roll?

  I know that those games are on there. I haven't done that yet.

• 1:52:01Speaker 01

  Oh, my God, I've played on Josh's on the way up.

• 1:52:03Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:52:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:52:04Rich Roll?

  So funny. Yeah, cool. All right, the last thing I want to talk to you about before I let you go is the kind of process that you use to choose which goal to pursue and then the kind of step by step and how you kind of assemble the, the, the plan towards achieving that. Cause I kind of want to leave people who are watching or listening, who are thinking about a big goal, or maybe have never set an audacious goal for themselves, like how you kind of embark upon that process for yourself and maybe some tools or principles that could, you know, guide the listener.

• 1:52:41Speaker 01

  Okay, yeah, I mean, I think, I think a lot of times, like, my biggest thing is I always tried to say yes to as many things as possible. So like, if I get an invite to a race in South Africa, I'll be like, yes. When I decided to do the run across the country, I-

• 1:52:58Rich Roll?

  But you have to, sorry to interject, but like, as somebody who's probably getting invited to a lot of races.

• 1:53:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:53:04Rich Roll?

  You have to learn how to say no, right? Like, how do you choose which things to say yes to and which things to say no to?

• 1:53:10Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And so like, that's what, yeah, I was just about to say, it was like, when I decided like, okay, this is my only focus, like, to do the run across the country. Cause usually I'm pretty open, like, there's some races that I want to do, or, you know, I have some, some goals, like, it might be to run faster, or like, to run further, to like, you know, try to win my first 100 miler, or whatever it is, or like, you know, hopefully get into Hard Rock or something, right? Like, but when the run across the country, it was like, I want to do this, then I had to pick like, okay, when do I want to do this? Then I have to get, how do I get everyone on board that I need to be a part of this? So it was almost like-

• 1:53:53Speaker 01

  I drew up a business plan, right? Like, so I was like, okay, I'm basically gonna form this corporation. I'm gonna be the CEO. It's a bad corporation because we're just gonna be losing money. Like, this is not a, not a, you know, making money.

• 1:54:06Rich Roll?

  But hopefully, losing somebody else's money?

• 1:54:08Speaker 01

  No, no, no. This was...

• 1:54:09Rich Roll?

  You gotta hit the sponsors. These are expensive endeavors.

• 1:54:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, this was, this was a very expensive endeavor. This is a once in a lifetime type thing. And I knew it was gonna be expensive and I was like, okay, but I wanna make sure, like, our family's on board first, right? That's, I think, in all these things, like, if you don't have your team, like, your partner or your family on board, like, it's just not gonna work. So, like, that was the first thing, was like, how do I get my family to be a part of this and wanna allow this to happen? So, once I was sure that that was okay, then I decided, like, okay, now, how do I get work? And that was what I was really worried about this. Like, how do I get work to, you know, allow me to do this? So then, once I was like, 100% sure, then I brought it to my partner. I was like, I really wanna do this.

• 1:54:58Speaker 01

  And then, I had an idea of like, okay, how, instead of like, oh, I just wanna do this, I had a, like, you have to go through, like, what are the, the pain points, right? Like, what are the things that are gonna stop me from being able to achieve this? And for running across the country is like, how am I gonna finance it? Like, when am I gonna do it? Who's gonna be on my team? How am I gonna get work to agree to it? So, you just bank a checklist of like, everything that needs to get done, and then you just start going down that checklist. And then, and you have to order it in a way that, like, if one thing doesn't work, then you have to figure out how to make it work before you can go to the next step. And so, that's what I did, basically. I was like, okay, I got the family on board,

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  figured out how we're gonna make it work financially and, like, with the time off, then talked to my partner about it, talked to my clients about it, hired my friend Mark Cody, who came in to help me during that time. And I'd wanted the opportunity to work with him again anyhow, so it worked out perfect. Trained him for a year and a half, so that he was ready for the challenge.

• 1:56:07Rich Roll?

  Year and a half, wow.

• 1:56:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, yeah, I didn't want him to come in and be like, oh, I don't know what to do. And then, I was still there if he needed me, and I was still working along the trip. So, like, if there was something he wasn't sure about, he'd just call me. Or he's like, I need help.

• 1:56:23Rich Roll?

  You're pretty available.

• 1:56:25Speaker 01

  Well, yeah.

• 1:56:25Rich Roll?

  Just running.

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and, and like I, that's why I didn't want to set like, I'm not going to go for a world record or anything like that. Like, cause if we have a deadline and there's something that needs to be done, like I would just schedule a day in a hotel the night before and just work with the clients to be like, hey, I really need the stuff now so that we can get this done so that I can, you know, go, go for a run.

• 1:56:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:56:49Speaker 01

  Um, and everyone was super cool about it. And, um, you know, there were some days where it didn't work out the way we wanted and some stuff had to change. And, you know, I had to stop in the middle of the day and, and figure it out. But like, that's, that's why I didn't put a deadline on it. And so I just set myself up for success and like, things are going to happen and, you know, it's not going to go like the way you want. Like I thought I had a, an RV company that was going to support the run. And then of course, like the week before they were like, yeah, it's not going to be ready. And I was like, oh, okay. Well, Cruise America, what's up?

• 1:57:21Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:57:22Speaker 01

  Um, and so you just, you know, put yourself in the best possible position and then just keep knocking those things off. And, and then for the run, it was the same thing. It's like every day, wake up, try to be super consistent. Like the first day, like I wanted to set the tone, like we were at city hall and like, you know, people are like taking pictures and everything. And I was like, we have two minutes, like we're leaving at seven o'clock, like the first day. And like, you just have to set the tone and, and then each and every day, just keep doing those little things. And I think we mentioned this earlier in the podcast, but if you, you know, keep doing the little things, the big things happen. But if you start thinking about the big thing and all the things that can go wrong, like you just get stuck.

• 1:58:03Rich Roll?

  Or you get paralyzed.

• 1:58:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:05Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:58:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:06Rich Roll?

  Or you're thinking about, uh, the flower when you should be focusing on the root.

• 1:58:11Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:58:11Rich Roll?

  Focus on the roots, flower takes care of itself. Focusing on the roots are the little things that you're doing every single day. The watering and the tilling, the tilling of the soil.

• 1:58:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, and you just keep stacking the little things and then like big things happen when you do that.

• 1:58:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Um, how do you convey that to your, to your kids? Just by, just by your actions? Or do you actually like sit them down and say, here's how you accomplish goals?

• 1:58:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:58:39Rich Roll?

  And how does that go over?

• 1:58:41Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:58:42Rich Roll?

  Later dad.

• 1:58:42Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Wait, can you take your AirPods out?

• 1:58:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:58:48Speaker 01

  Um, no, I think.

• 1:58:51Speaker 01

  I think, and you probably see this too, is like, your kids, like, no matter what you say, your kids are gonna do what they see, right? And so, if you're modeling things that you want them to do or achieve, like, they, they pick up on that much faster than if you say like, "Hey, we're gonna sit here for 20 minutes and talk about what it means to accomplish big things." And then, I try to just engage with them as much as possible, and I think that that's one of the biggest things, like, I really miss them when I was gone, and I don't wanna miss all these opportunities. Like, I had a chance to do a race in Bhutan in October, called the Snowman Race.

• 1:59:33Speaker 01

  It's one of the places in the world that I haven't been that I really wanna go, and they wanted us to be there for 25 days or something. I was like, "I'm gonna miss like, four cross-country meets and five, five football games and, like, all the time in between, and I've already missed too much time this year." And, and I think you know this, but I, and I don't know if this is true, so like, if you do a fact-check, like, some, I know your podcast doesn't do that, but like, you can, I don't know, I should probably fact-check this, but like, 90% of the time you're gonna spend with your kids is before they're 18, so like, if you don't spend that time now, it's not coming back. And so, I wanna be as present as I can be, and, so, I've just been around, and, and we'll just, you know, our son will be like, "Hey, you wanna go play murder ball on the trampoline?"

• 2:00:18Speaker 01

  And I'm like, "Yeah, let's, let's go do that." And then, while we're out there, we're just talking about like, "Hey, have you done your project in, you know, chemistry, or history, or whatever, and, um, oh, you need to..." Our son's doing a, you know, they go to this kind of cool school called H.B. Woodlawn, where they have a lot of independent study and, and direction.

• 2:00:39Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's pretty cool.

• 2:00:40Speaker 01

  It's really cool, and it's like a public school, and it's just lottery, it's super lucky that our kids got into it, and, um, he's doing a project on tourism, and so, like, we went to the, the library just the other day, and like, I got them library cards, and, like, they had library cards, but of course, they expired during COVID, so like, um, but I was just there to be able to go with them, and that's when I saw all these cool books about travel, like, these routes that I haven't seen before, like, now, like, I wanna run, like, the Silk Road and stuff, because I saw it in this, like, book, but like, just being around to help them, you know, with photography or something, like, they're doing...

• 2:01:20Speaker 01

  These cool projects and I just want to be there and help as much as I can and I don't think like sitting down and being like, hey, you know, you should make a checklist like

• 2:01:31Rich Roll?

  That's just, you get the eye roll.

• 2:01:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:33Rich Roll?

  But at some point, the Bhutan trip or the similar type of adventures, perhaps you bring them with you, right?

• 2:01:40Speaker 01

  Oh, and that's what we've done their whole life. So like, they've been, like, one of our big goals is to get them to all seven continents and they've already been to six continents as 16 and 13 year olds.

• 2:01:50Rich Roll?

  Wow, I didn't realize you had traveled with them.

• 2:01:52Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So they've, they've got friends in New Zealand. They've got friends in France and like, they're actually doing a solo trip this spring together to France as a field trip. And my wife's like, oh, we should go. And I'm like, no, no, they should go by themselves.

• 2:02:07Rich Roll?

  That's for them.

• 2:02:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, yeah, next year, we're gonna try to hit Antarctica and that'll be their seventh continent.

• 2:02:14Rich Roll?

  Nice. Wow, that's exciting.

• 2:02:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they're world travelers.

• 2:02:18Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 2:02:18Speaker 01

  And I think that they've learned so much. I think, I mean, I don't know if you've had the chance to take your kids around the world with you, but like, there's much more that can be learned from, you know, a trip to Japan where you just get to see so much unique stuff or a trip to France or an opportunity to be in.

• 2:02:35Rich Roll?

  100%.

• 2:02:36Speaker 01

  Like, yeah, I mean, my brother and I talked about this, like, he's taking his kids to Portugal and like, they're gonna miss a couple of days of school. And I was like, anytime that, yeah, anytime that we've like gotten one of those like, hey, you know, your kids need to be in school, we're like, okay. Like, they're learning a lot in, in the real world, too.

• 2:02:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I just think, yeah, there's so much to be gained from the worldliness of traveling to foreign locations for kids at that impressionable of an age and like, missing school because of like, that kind of a broadening experience, like, it doesn't even, you know,

• 2:03:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:03:12Rich Roll?

  equate.

• 2:03:13Speaker 01

  Well, and what I think is awesome is like, they know that there's different ways to do things. Like, they know like, that you don't always have to, you know, have the easy, easy meal or they know like, sometimes the train doesn't come and we have to figure another way out to get there. Or, you know, sometimes your bags don't show up or that's why you only carry carry on.

• 2:03:36Rich Roll?

  Creative problem solving.

• 2:03:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:03:38Rich Roll?

  On the fly.

• 2:03:39Speaker 01

  Exactly. Or like, yes, your mom and dad are gonna give you a, you know, a caffeinated beverage at 2 o'clock in the morning so that you can get off the plane, you know? So they've are, yeah, you probably shouldn't put your iPad in the back of the airplane so that we have to go back to the airport the next day because you've lost it, you know, like, yeah, those things all happen.

• 2:04:00Rich Roll?

  All that kind of stuff, man.

• 2:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:03Rich Roll?

  Cool. Well, let's just end this with, with, you know, a little sort of inspirational words of wisdom for somebody who's, who's, who's inspired by what you just shared and is, is ready to go and is thinking about, it doesn't have to be their first running race, but trying to do something hard.

• 2:04:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing for me, and I think for a lot of people, is just finding something that lights you up. I think you mentioned this earlier, but like, if you don't have something that you're a little bit scared of, or you're a little bit intimidated about, like, it's gonna be hard to like, wake up at 4:45 in the morning when the covers are warm. And, but if, if there is something that you can find that you're interested in, don't be afraid to go for it. Like, I think signing up is like the first step. And like, it doesn't even have to be a race. It could just be like, hey, I wanna, you know, try to go to my local trail and, and run it. And, and I thought you actually had somebody on, like, not that long ago, that said, like, the 12-hour walk from your front door.

• 2:05:07Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, Colin O'Brady.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was awesome. Like, I was like, that's exactly what would be a great first step for a lot of people is just go, like, somewhere close and just do something unusual, or take the train to the other side of town and like, figure your way back to your house. Like, it could be, like, I have a friend that started a race called Eco Trail in Paris, and he basically like, was like, I'm going all over the world to run, like, why don't I just have a race, like, I go train, I take the metro out of Paris and then run back to the Eiffel Tower, you know, like, when I first started running, like, one of my big runs is I'd run down to the Washington Monument and just be like, wow, I can't believe I get to run, like, to the Washington Monument, or like, the Lincoln Memorial, like, and

• 2:05:53Speaker 01

  that's like, maybe seven or eight miles from my house. But like, you know, seven miles there, seven miles back, all of a sudden, it's 14 miles. That's a pretty big thing, you know? And it could be that, or it could just be like, hey, I wanna, you know, go to Starbucks and, you know, run home from there, or walk home from there. And, you know, it starts small and then, but if it is something like, big, like,

• 2:06:17Speaker 01

  I think do it, man. Like, there's so many people that I see, like, wait to do something big, and then something gets in the way, or they don't have the health to do it anymore. And like, it's cliche and dumb, but like, seize the opportunity, seize the moment, because you never know what's gonna happen. Like, I have so many friends that retire, and then they're like, "Oh, I have, you know, dreams to go to Greece," or like, "I'm gonna spend all this time with my family," and like, something happens and it doesn't work out that way.

• 2:06:46Rich Roll?

  It never happens. Yeah. I mean, you have to begin. You have to develop an inclination for action, even if those are small steps. I think a lot of people get paralyzed because they're waiting for their life to, you know, come into some sort of alignment where it all feels perfect and makes sense, and it generally doesn't, you know.

• 2:07:05Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:07:05Rich Roll?

  Life doesn't work that way, typically. If it does, good for you. But the other thing I really love about your example and your story is, is you're somebody who has a passion, who pursues that passion very vigorously, but that passion doesn't come at the expense or the cost of like, family, community, career. Like, you didn't quit your job, you know, like, you have a, you have like, you know, like, in some respect, like, a traditional kind of job career.

• 2:07:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:07:31Rich Roll?

  And that's very important, and creates the stability for you to be able to do these other things. And there's something really kind of like grounded about that that I like, because it's not this irresponsible, like, "Oh, just, you know, let go of everything, and like, go into the, you know, go like, you know, be like Kung-Fu, and like, you know, walk, walk into the wilderness, because like, I have a passion."

• 2:07:54Speaker 01

  Right.

• 2:07:54Rich Roll?

  It's like, we live in the world, you have kids, and responsibilities, and bills, and all of that, and yet you still figured out a way to pursue all of these interests that like, light you up, and you've been successful at them, but most importantly, they've given your life like, joy and meaning. And I think that's really kind of, you know, it's powerful to be somebody who is as elite as you, but also like, so relatable in most of how you spend your time.

• 2:08:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. I hope that that is what people take away. Like, it's, um, I think it's, you know, it's hard. Like, it's not easy. I mean, I think like, You know, I was jealous at times when I was, you know, you probably know a guy named Anton Kepitska and like he and I would like battle back and forth and I'd be like, dude, he's just living in a

• 2:08:41Rich Roll?

  But he's, he lives a totally different, like that guy, I mean, he's might as well be living in a cave compared to like the way that you live your life.

• 2:08:48Speaker 01

  Right, but like, it doesn't matter. When you show up to the start line, it doesn't matter. Like you just do the best with what you have, right? And so like, if you're worried about what someone else is doing, like, that doesn't work. Like, but like, there are so many people that go and they do like, I'm gonna do two marathons a year and I'm gonna, you know, build up and like, that's, that's what my life's gonna be. And like, that's great. I'm glad that, you know, there's people that can do that and they have really great performances, but that's just not, not what lights me up and gets me excited. And that's not my life.

• 2:09:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I got you.

• 2:09:24Speaker 01

  But I did have that, I mean, I did have that debate with myself, like, do I want that life? You know, at various points, like, do I want to walk away from this and, and be a full-time athlete? And like, what does that look like? And I'm, I'm happy that I, I didn't do that. I'm happy that I tried to see if I could make it all work. Because you, you probably had this too, is like so many people say like, it's not gonna work. And it's not like, people trying to be negative. It's just like, for a lot of people, it doesn't work. And I'm glad that it has for me.

• 2:09:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, you seem happy, you seem fulfilled in the choices that you've made. And it's good talking to you, man. I appreciate it. And I wish you well. I'm at your service.

• 2:10:06Speaker 01

  Oh, man.

• 2:10:07Rich Roll?

  When it comes to running on the moon, let me know.

• 2:10:10Speaker 01

  Oh dude, yeah, I need a partner, man.

• 2:10:12Rich Roll?

  Maybe that might be worth having you back to talk about.

• 2:10:14Speaker 01

  Dude, I would love that, yeah. Any, anytime, man. I'd love to hang out and do this again some point.

• 2:10:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah, awesome. Well, it's, it's, it's really fun to kind of watch your journey from afar. And it's, it's been an honor and a pleasure to meet you and talk to you. So thanks.

• 2:10:30Speaker 01

  Thanks a lot.

• 2:10:31Rich Roll?

  Cheers. Peace.

• 2:10:32Speaker 01

  Plants.

• 2:10:44Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting

• 2:11:29Rich Roll?

  the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated, and sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, The Meal Planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel

• 2:12:11Rich Roll?

  Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.