From Actor To Change Agent: Adrian Grenier On Creating Symbiosis With Self

What happens when you’re massively rich, famous, and rewarded for living a life of over-indulgence? If you’re lucky, you awake one day to realize that a life of sex, drugs, rock & roll—a life you were convinced would make you happy—only leaves you empty. You then embark on a Victor Frankl-esque search for meaning that ultimately leads to spiritual awakening and a path towards purpose, self-actualization, and service. This is a story that recurs on this show in many forms. Today’s version of that story comes in the shape of Adrian Grenier. You know Adrian as an actor—he’s appeared in many films and television projects—but of course, most well known for his portrayal of Vinnie Chase in the HBO hit show Entourage, a dizzying and meta experience for Adrian that in so many ways came to parallel his own life. But Adrian has evolved past this archetype of adolescent id, trading Hollywood for a ranch outside Austin, Texas. He’s matured into a regenerative farmer, environmentalist, and founder of the Lonely Whale Foundation. He’s also an impact investor, leading DuContra Ventures as co-founder and Chief Experience Officer. A heart-centered community builder who cares deeply about our symbiosis with self, each other, and the natural habitat we share, today Adrian shares his worthy story. It’s about the hidden, ugly truths that lay beneath the modern American dream. It’s about the work required, and beauty to behold, in wrestling with the soul. It’s about endeavoring to connect with and express that which is more fundamental and meaningful. But most of all, it’s about finding ways to be in service to a better world. To read more click here. You can also watch listen to our exchange on YouTube. And as always, the podcast streams wild and free on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. This one is soulful—I hope it resonates with you as deeply as it did with me. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  I was trying to save the world. I was trying to make all this money, do all this stuff, to go out and proselytize and tell everybody how they needed to behave. I've really come to terms with how important it is that I take personal responsibility for myself and I take ownership of how I am and how I show up. I've let go of the ego part of me that thinks I know the way the world should be and surrendered to the playfulness and the joy of just being a part of this existence. We're alive. How can you not be optimistic? We're here. It's incredible.

• 1:58Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Here's a question for you. What happens when all your fantasies come true? When you come to discover that you're being massively rewarded for living a life of just extraordinary overindulgence? Well, if you're lucky, you awake one day to realize that life, your life, a life so many aspire to, a life of sex, drugs, rock and roll, wealth and fame, a life you're absolutely convinced would make you happy, instead leaves you empty. But also motivated to evolve, to embark on a sort of Viktor Frankl-esque search for

• 2:42Rich Roll?

  meaning that ultimately leads to a spiritual awakening and a path towards purpose, greater self-actualization, and ultimately service. This is a story, an archetype, that has recurred on this show in many forms, but today's version of that story comes in the shape of Adrian Grenier. You know Adrian as an actor. He's appeared in many films and television projects, but of course is most well-known for his portrayal of Vinnie Chase in the HBO hit show Entourage, which was this dizzying and meta experience for Adrian that in so many interesting ways came to parallel his own personal life. But Adrian has grown up.

• 3:26Rich Roll?

  He's evolved past this archetype of adolescent id, trading Hollywood for a ranch outside Austin, Texas, maturing into a regenerative farmer, an environmentalist. He's the founder of the Lonely Whale Foundation and impact investor as co-founder and chief experience officer of Du contra Ventures. A heart-centered community builder who cares deeply about our symbiosis with self, with each other, and the natural habitat we share. Today Adrian shares his story, and it's a good one. Couple more things to mention before we excavate his soul, but first, a few words from the sponsors that make this show possible.

• 4:16Rich Roll?

  Okay, Adrian Grenier. So, this is a conversation about growing up. It's about the hidden, ugly truths that lay beneath the modern American dream. It's about the work required and the beauty to behold in wrestling with the soul and endeavoring to connect with and express that which is more fundamental and meaningful. And it's about finding ways to share what you discover and serve us to a better world. This one is soulful. I hope it resonates. So, let's do the thing. This is me and Adrian Grenier. Well, first of all, happy birthday, man.

• 5:00Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 5:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I appreciate you inviting me to your birthday party last night. I'm sorry I couldn't make it. I didn't get the email until too late, but...

• 5:07Speaker 01

  Who emails birthday invitations?

• 5:10Rich Roll?

  I don't know.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  We should have texted you.

• 5:12Rich Roll?

  It's cool, man. It's cool, man. But, uh, happy birthday.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 5:17Rich Roll?

  How old are you now? Forty-four?

• 5:19Speaker 01

  Forty-five.

• 5:20Rich Roll?

  Forty-five?

• 5:21Speaker 01

  Forty-five, yeah.

• 5:22Rich Roll?

  You're a man.

• 5:23Speaker 01

  Yes, officially.

• 5:24Rich Roll?

  You're in your middle age officially.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:26Rich Roll?

  How does it feel?

• 5:27Speaker 01

  Good. I just grew up fast enough to squeeze in manhood, you know, within...

• 5:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  Forty-five years. Had I waited another year, I probably would have never grown up.

• 5:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I feel like you've been on this crash course. You've compressed a lot into the last couple of years.

• 5:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:45Rich Roll?

  Which is what we're gonna get into.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:47Rich Roll?

  What's funny, um, well, thank you for making time to do this today. It's super nice to finally meet you. And what's funny about the fact that we're sitting here today is that we were first introduced... We talked about this on the phone the other day. I don't know if you recall, but we were first introduced by Mishka Shubali back in... December of 2015. And we had some back and forth on email.

• 6:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, remember.

• 6:16Rich Roll?

  And that didn't seem to go anywhere. And then like, I feel like every year and a half or so, you'd resurface and we'd try to figure out how to sit together. And then we just couldn't sync it up. So you are officially the longest gestating podcast guest in the history. This has taken six, six years to make happen. But I've learned to not force these things. Like they're, they're, they're meant to happen when they're meant to happen.

• 6:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:46Rich Roll?

  And I feel like had you, had we done this in 2016, it would be very different and far less.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  I don't think I had anything interesting to say back then.

• 6:55Rich Roll?

  You know.

• 6:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:57Rich Roll?

  Maybe a few things, but I feel like now you're in a position to talk about a lot of important, meaningful things.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you know, so back in, back then I had a lot more people between me and, you know.

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I gathered, I gathered as much. There were a lot of gatekeepers.

• 7:14Speaker 01

  A lot of gatekeepers. So a lot of the stuff didn't even get to me and, and, you know, and I willfully remained ignorant because, you know, I didn't want to have to work too much, you know? It's like if I didn't, if my, my people didn't call me and tell me I had to do something, all the better because I could go to brunch.

• 7:31Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 7:31Speaker 01

  Um, and, and then I went through a period where I just shed everything and, and was doing nothing because I was basically in isolation. And now I'm sort of, I'm finding a nice balance where I have some people that I work with, but I do most of the things myself. So I have actually some, you know, I know what's happening in my life. I, I manage my own schedule. And so, you know, we actually, I think, sort of mostly schedule this.

• 8:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was just us.

• 8:04Speaker 01

  In person.

• 8:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was just us. But I feel like when you're in that position and you're on a television show, I mean, on some level, you need those people. The, the incoming has to be just completely dizzying. So there's no way that you'd be able to manage it on your own.

• 8:18Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, you become a big machine, you know? If, if you're successful, you know, you become a, a lot of moving parts and you become like sort of the. You know, the Millennium Falcon or something.

• 8:28Rich Roll?

  Right. But now you're living on a farm outside Austin.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:33Rich Roll?

  Is it in Bastrop?

• 8:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, outside of Austin.

• 8:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're like Ryan Holiday's neighbor now.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  I am. Yeah, I was texting with him yesterday, in fact.

• 8:42Rich Roll?

  Are you? So that's hilarious. That's so interesting. How has the, how does it feel like there's this, this sense that there's this great migration to Austin right now? Is that, do you feel that? Is that real? Or is that just like a handful of influencers move there? So it feels like more people than it actually is?

• 9:03Speaker 01

  No, the inundation is real. I mean, it's palpable. You feel it for sure. And already before the pandemic, there was an inordinate amount of people moving there every day.

• 9:13Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 9:13Speaker 01

  And then the pandemic hit and then a lot of people, and then all the like influencers and all the people you recognize.

• 9:21Rich Roll?

  Right. And then I'm sure like a second wave of people that want to be around those people.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. And I, you know, honestly, I'm, I'm concerned. I'm concerned because, you know, Austin's slogan is keep Austin weird. But there are a lot of people that just aren't that weird. They're just like, you know, kinda, you know, kinda typical, you know? And, and they're coming in and they're, they're not passing through that rite of passage to keep Austin weird, meaning like, you know, being a part of like that, that culture, which is, is, is unique to Austin.

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but not too many of those people are going to be buying ranches or farms and growing their own food, unless they do fit that bill.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, the, you know, they're, they're in Austin. I, I skipped town almost.

• 10:12Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, you're not even in the outskirts of that anyway.

• 10:15Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 10:16Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm really interested in this arc that you've been on, which kind of parallels this Viktor Frankl, man's search for meaning, kind of hero's journey. I think it's fascinating. It's a recurring theme on this show. But it's really my favorite kind of landscape to mine. This exploration of, of how you go from achieving your wildest fantasies as a young person and living this overindulgent lifestyle, only to wake up one day and discover it ain't all that.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:48Rich Roll?

  So why don't we go back to the genesis of that?

• 10:52Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:53Rich Roll?

  Um, I rewatched Teenage Paparazzo the other day and I also watched, I had never seen the documentary that you made about reconnecting with your dad, a shot in the dark. And I found it super interesting. I mean, I think Teenage Paparazzo feels almost quaint compared to what's going on right now. Everybody with their flip phones and although Facebook existed, you know, social media wasn't what it is today. And so it was sort of cute compared to what it must be like now.

• 11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:27Rich Roll?

  Had you been living kind of the life that you were living in this particular moment.

• 11:32Speaker 01

  It was totally simpler times.

• 11:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know, right?

• 11:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was like celebrities were celebrities and they were chased by the paparazzi and the paparazzi were just trying to make a buck and they were tabloids and, you know, they, now it's just far, far more complex.

• 11:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 11:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:47Rich Roll?

  The Teenage Paparazzo movie, for people who haven't seen it, you, you, you connect with this young kid who's, you know, out there shooting pictures of celebrities. He's like 13 or something like that. And he goes on his own kind of exploration of fame as his notoriety increases, you know, in no small part because of your interest in him. He's gotta be like 25 now though, right? Have you stayed in touch with him?

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, the last time I ran into him was at some LA party, but I, no, we don't talk much.

• 12:20Rich Roll?

  No. Is he still doing that?

• 12:23Speaker 01

  I think he's transitioned into more photography. I mean, he's, he's a talented kid, so he's, I mean, I don't know exactly, to be honest, but I've seen his Instagram and a lot of photographs and pretty pictures.

• 12:37Rich Roll?

  Interesting. In the documentary about your dad, you get a glimpse of, you know, what your mom is like, the era in which she grew up, the circumstances under which you were born. And looking at your life now, it feels like you've become your mom's son, like she's this hippie, you know, into all this spiritual mystical stuff, which is kind of much more in your wheelhouse now.

• 13:01Speaker 01

  Well, you know, I finally stopped rebelling and, you know, decided to just embrace my nature. Yeah, I suppose, instead of rebelling against my mom and trying to be, you know, not, don't tell me what to do or who to be, I'll, you know, decide myself. And I realized there's a lot of wisdom in what she was sharing with me and what she was offering once I decided to just stop being a rebel without a cause.

• 13:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 13:29Speaker 01

  You know, and, and, you know, ultimately, I owe so much to my mother and so much gratitude and appreciation for the way she shaped my thinking and my heart, mostly my, my heart, my spirit. I'm, I'm so grateful to have grown up in a home that was as loving and as supportive as, as I did, you know, even though I was a single mom and she was working really hard and often absent in many ways because she was, you know, in the grind. Not to say she was an absent mom, she just was working so hard, I didn't get a lot of her attention.

• 14:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, she was busting her ass for you.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  Blessing her ass, exactly.

• 14:09Rich Roll?

  I mean, you know, you get that in the movie, like, this woman is incredible.

• 14:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:13Rich Roll?

  And the responsibility that she, you know, decided to shoulder for herself to create this life for you.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 14:19Rich Roll?

  Um, upbringing you from New Mexico and moving to New York City and just being on the hustle to, you know, provide for you.

• 14:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and, and also now, as an adult, finally, you know, I'm able to recognize that my mom was operating within a, a larger culture that, in which men were mostly absent.

• 14:43Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Males were around, but like, men, like divine masculine men, embodied men who were showing up and providing that support system and playing a, a positive role in the family, this, it didn't exist. Didn't exist for her, didn't exist for her mother. So, and I think in the movie, she says, you know, she had a, you know, sort of a displaced sense of the role of a man. And so... That pattern carried out in her while raising me where she didn't really have any men to support her, so she took on that male role for me. And that's actually been quite an inspiration for me today now is how can I now be the

• 15:30Speaker 01

  kind of man that would show up for my mother, for me as a kid, and of course now for my partner and my future children.

• 15:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and having to learn that without having a strong male figure in the household when you grew up. I mean, she says in the movie that after you reconnect with your dad and you have a few simple moments with him, that you have actually received more love than she received from her dad, even though her dad was in the house because he was so emotionally unavailable.

• 16:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 16:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and trying to, you know, part of that movie, although, you know, on the surface, it's kind of like this road trip to meet your dad, beneath the surface, it's really this exploration on your part to try to understand what fatherhood is. And this all takes place like a couple of years before Entourage even happens, right? So you're grappling with this idea of what it means to be a man when you grew up without that presence in your life. So it's not like a new, this idea of what does it mean to, you know, stand tall and be, you know, an emblematic, responsible, loving, compassionate provider, these are subjects that you've been thinking about for a long time. They've occupied a lot of space in your consciousness.

• 16:47Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, I believe that, you know, I've come to this planet to wrestle with these themes of manhood and father and all that stuff. And it just keeps repeating itself in different aspects of my life. I mean, if I had to make that, I probably should remake that movie because it has so many holes in it. I was twenty.

• 17:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you were so young.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  I was twenty, twenty. I turned twenty-one while we were shooting that film. And I didn't know anything, so I was, you know, it's a film from the perspective of a twenty-one-year-old kid about what it means to be a man, or, you know, what fatherhood is, having not had one, not grown up with one. Yeah, I should probably do the sequel.

• 17:35Rich Roll?

  I think it would be cool, because, yeah, it's this time capsule, like, what is a mind at that age? Like, what is the preoccupation, and what interests you, and what problem are you trying to solve? But to figure that out, you know, as a mature adult now, with everything that you've, you know, gone through and experienced, and all the growth that you've experienced, I think you could create, like, a sequel to that that could be powerful.

• 17:59Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm, yeah. I think it's, what do we call it?

• 18:03Rich Roll?

  I don't know. That title comes later.

• 18:07Speaker 01

  I don't know what to say about that. I mean, it's strange, because I'm practicing so much in just the being part, and not the telling part.

• 18:18Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 18:19Speaker 01

  You know, for a long time, I was spending a lot of time performing. Look, I got it all figured out, and, you know, I have a lot to say, and now I'm much more interested in just head down, chop wood, carry water, and just be present in my, you know, daily practice, really, of being that embodied man. And I haven't quite, as I said, I was in mostly isolation, and now I'm just coming out. It's like, how do I tell my story? Even this is awkward for me, because I haven't had a lot of interviews over the past couple of years. Especially to talk about something so personal, so.

• 19:03Speaker 01

  I'm trying to find where that balance is between the beingness and then telling and communicating that to others.

• 19:11Rich Roll?

  And when that compulsion arises to express yourself, or to tell a story, or to tell people the way it is, is that coming from an egoistic place? Is that coming from an older version of you? Or is there something more pure, like in figuring out how to parse those two things?

• 19:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, I got lost in the business of acting and filmmaking, where I was trying to climb that ladder and always maneuvering to put myself in a position where I could get that next role, or make that next buck, so that I could always be expanding and growing, and lost track of the art of expression. And the reason why I initially was drawn to filmmaking was to, you know, be vulnerable and share something of myself.

• 20:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, not entirely, but, you know, more and more, the money gigs started taking precedent over, you know, the meaningful gigs. And that's the nature of the business.

• 20:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it did start that way. You were kind of this, you know, punk artist kid who was all about purity and integrity. You went to LaGuardia High, right? Like, which is like the fame school. Did some acting there, went to college for a stint, and kind of became an actor because you had a facility for it, but it was mostly a way to fund these other artistic endeavors and interests that you had.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  I mean, in many ways, it was my ticket out of the hood, you know? I was like, living pretty, you know, meager means. And I didn't want to have to, I wanted, you know, I wanted more. I wanted all the, I wanted the financial security. I wanted, you know, the cool parties and all that. So that was the easiest route for me. It's just, I had, I had the talent and I had people that were... Prompting me and, you know, asking me to come audition and do stuff. So I had a lot of people that were wanting that of me.

• 21:15Rich Roll?

  But my sense was that you would take these roles to kind of pay the bills.

• 21:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:20Rich Roll?

  The heart was really somewhere else.

• 21:22Speaker 01

  I tried to make that work. I tried to sit in sort of this artistic integrity. While it's still like robbing, you know, robbing Peter to pay Paul type thing. Like I'd go in, I'd make a couple bucks in Hollywood and I'd come back and try and do real art.

• 21:39Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  And spend all my money.

• 21:41Rich Roll?

  You were in bands and you were making documentaries and stuff like that.

• 21:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And then Entourage, like, you know, everything goes out the window.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Yeah, I said robbing Peter to pay Paul, but I meant like Robin Hood. That's what I meant. That was the, like, the Robin Hood mentality.

• 21:55Rich Roll?

  I get these money from the fat cats and I'll put it to a more.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  And in many ways, I'm still, I'm still in that, that trip.

• 22:03Rich Roll?

  Aren't we all on some level?

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:05Rich Roll?

  I mean, this podcast is supported by sponsors and I love my sponsors, but, you know.

• 22:09Speaker 01

  Thank you, sponsors.

• 22:11Rich Roll?

  We live in a, you know, a commercial world and to some extent, we have to play by those rules if we want to function and, you know, share what we're here to share.

• 22:20Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Well, we think so. We've been told that that's the, the only way that we can structure.

• 22:28Rich Roll?

  So help me reimagine. Help me reimagine this.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, that's what, so what I've been doing now in my life is focusing on the role of money and investments and how we actually build a civilization that serves not only humans, but also the environment, sort of a more holistic approach to investing. So I started an impact investment company that has, you know, a certain philosophy, a certain approach to investing that is novel. It's, it's sort of, it, it, it works within a capitalist system, but it also seeks not just ROI, return on investment, but also YBM, what we, we call is yields beyond money.

• 23:13Speaker 01

  You know, the things that are intangible, the things that are, you know, perhaps create meaning in, in our lives, the things that are in harmony with and interconnected with our natural systems. And so that's really what I've been focusing on because I do believe that our economic system is a story that we built and we told. You know, and it's worked for us thus far, but if you look around, it's just not working the way we thought it would, and we need to, I think, reinvent how we exchange value with one another and what it is that we're focusing on creating. Because money, capitalism incentivizes the creation of certain types of businesses and

• 23:56Speaker 01

  certain types of material things that are on many levels just not serving us anymore.

• 24:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, it promulgates a zero-sum perspective on everything, and it prioritizes quarterly gains over the long-term interest of individuals and the planet. I mean, I could go on a long rant about that. And on some fundamental level, like from a Yuval Noah Harari perspective, like, the entire structure, the system of money and commerce, is built on a story, a social contract that is actually just illusion, right? We think of corporations as entities, but it's a couple pieces of paper and it's a collection of individuals and people. So how can we create a new story that's in better service to all of our interests?

• 24:47Rich Roll?

  And I think the cynical would say, "Well, look, you're still a venture capitalist, you're investing in these companies, you're operating within the system, and you can call it conscious capitalism or whatever you want, but are you not just doing the same thing? And how do you create a tangible metric around yields beyond money?"

• 25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:12Rich Roll?

  And that's the challenge, right?

• 25:13Speaker 01

  And I judge whether or not we're on the right track based on the amount of resistance we get, you know, and sort of calibrating the resistance.

• 25:22Rich Roll?

  You can't do that.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  What?

• 25:23Rich Roll?

  Like, "You can't do that."

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Exactly, like, "Oh, that's not possible." Or, you know, and I've been judging just the nervous systems of people that I've approached with this concept, and, you know, a lot of these guys have a lot of money, enough to never worry again, and yet, in those moments, you feel their heartbeat race a little bit and their breath speed up because the idea that they would be investing in something that wasn't purely focused on ROI, although we do pretty well, anyway, but really looking at the things that are intangible. And that's the...

• 26:03Speaker 01

  That's the scary part, because we crave certainty. So we want to see the numbers and we want to have an investment that's going to guarantee a certain return so that we can have more dollars and cents in the bank, more zeros and ones on the computer screen of our bank account. Versus, the things that are perhaps more important are the things you can't calculate. They're just beyond the edges of our calculators. It's the human-to-human shared experience. It's how we live in nature, and connection, and family, and community, and a state of being, health, wellness, mental health, sense of self, intelligence.

• 26:48Speaker 01

  Like, all these things, you can't calculate so easily. And so it's a little bit more challenging, but I do believe that we have a winning formula, if you want to get formulaic, to actually bridge that gap between making fine returns, ROI, and also putting an emphasis on the yields that are beyond money itself. Because money in our current system is the focus, is the goal. When money in our minds is not a goal, to accumulate more and more and more, it's the tool that we use to create the things that we want to see in the world. Right, or a byproduct of something mission-based.

• 27:33Speaker 01

  And by the way, one of my favorite ideas is you can't be rich unless your neighbors are rich. If you buy the nicest house, the biggest mansion, the most beautiful pristine piece of property, and there are slums all around you, are you really wealthy? You're going to have to build higher walls, you're going to have to be more isolated. But if you distributed that wealth, or at least it was distributed naturally within a system, to as many people and everybody had a nice house, then you could walk down the block for miles and there'd be, you know, rolling fruit forests in people's yards and people would be out playing and it'd be a safe neighborhood and that's wealth.

• 28:15Speaker 01

  You don't have to get locked up in your castle because you're afraid for your life or you're afraid to leave. So I sort of, I apply that same philosophy is, yeah, I mean, is it great to have a lot of money in your bank account? I don't know. I mean, it's just sitting there, right? What's really great is to have the richness of life that comes from spending your money in wise ways so that the return is, you know, more connection, more friends, more family, more health and wellness, those things, experiences.

• 28:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's a very powerful statement and I think it's buttressed by the fact that you tried it the other way, right? Like you're coming from a place of experience with this. It's one thing to say, you know, academically, this may or may not be true, but you lived a life of, you know, of indulgence, I guess would be a fair enough word to say it. I don't know how you would characterize it, but you kind of had all that and deployed it in a self-serving way as probably, you know, most young people in their twenties would, only to discover that it left you feeling empty and that the wealth that, the kind of sense of wealth, wealth being defined in a more broadly, in a more broad context,

• 29:31Rich Roll?

  you know, brings your life meaning by deploying resources to the benefit of others.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the zero-sum game versus the infinite game.

• 29:39Rich Roll?

  Right. The world is infinitely abundant because the limited definition of wealth, when you, you know, spun your example of the mansion amidst the slums, as human beings were kind of, you know, predisposed to measure wealth only in comparison to others. So if everybody, if you deploy that wealth and you're living in a, in a, in a robust community where everybody's needs are met, are you wealthy? Yes, in the broader definition. In the limited definition, you're not because your house is the same size as everybody else, right?

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Right, right. And I'll just, I'll, I'll make a celebrity analogy.

• 30:17Speaker 01

  That makes me laugh because I've been there, I've experienced it. So I would often get paid stupid, stupid amounts of money to show up to a club.

• 30:31Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 30:31Speaker 01

  Like I'll just, I'll tell you frankly, that's what would happen. They'd pay me a big check so that I would show up to their club so that their club would look cool or that, you know, they, they could say that I was there. And so bring up the cool factor of the, of the club. I don't know why they hired me, but some people think I'm pretty cool. But anyway, they would take, they would, basically now I'm the product because they paid me. And they would place me in the VIP section with the velvet ropes and the bouncers. And I would be sitting there all by myself, alone, while everybody's out in the club dancing and having fun. And I'm like, I want to-

• 31:13Rich Roll?

  You're a zoo animal.

• 31:14Speaker 01

  Exactly, a totally zoo, total zoo animal. I want to be out there like dancing, having fun with people. And so I would, you know, I'd tell the bouncers like, I'm, I'm sitting there looking at their asses, right? Like I'm sitting there looking at these big bouncer's butts. And I'm like, guys, you know, I don't, it's cool. You guys can go somewhere else. I'm, remove the velvet ropes, remove the velvet ropes. And then suddenly the commoners come in and start hanging out in the VIP section. And when you have people in the VIP section that aren't in isolation and aren't up on like a pedestal, suddenly the VIP section looks a lot like the rest of the club. And now it's-

• 31:54Rich Roll?

  You're happier, they're happier.

• 31:56Speaker 01

  Right. But the, the, the club owners, they didn't get their, their money's worth because now it's just another section with people having fun as opposed to creating that mystique and creating the separation, which elevates me to this status where people can gawk and, you know, like taking pictures of zebras behind a, in a zoo.

• 32:17Rich Roll?

  The counter narrative is that, look, if you come to this club, you actually might get to hang out with this guy as opposed to look at him past a rope. Wouldn't that be more alluring?

• 32:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:28Rich Roll?

  To their customers?

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Well, once you start hanging out with me, it's not that special. So I, you know-

• 32:32Rich Roll?

  They could take the pap shot.

• 32:34Speaker 01

  A lot of these celebrities need the velvet rope because when you break down the facade, it's like they're just people, right? It's like, not that interesting. I'm a pretty good dancer, but other than that.

• 32:46Rich Roll?

  Coming back for more, but first.

• 32:55Rich Roll?

  Okay, back to the show.

• 33:01Rich Roll?

  Well, what's wild, and I know you've told this story a million times, but what's wild about the whole entourage thing is the meta nature of it all, because in so many ways, it parallels this trajectory that you went on in your personal life, where the lines got incredibly blurred between the character you were portraying on television and the way you were acquitting yourself in your private life and kind of public life as you.

• 33:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, the lines are so blurred, I can't even tell you what was what.

• 33:34Rich Roll?

  Right, like when were you Vinnie and when were you Adrian?

• 33:38Speaker 01

  Well, you know, so acting is really just tapping into the parts of yourself that are true and honest to a character that's not you, right? So just borrowing the piece, because we, you know, we have all of it in us. And we choose to be, you know, you choose to be rich. At a certain age, you decided this is how I'm going to behave, and these are the patterns that I'm going to express as rich, and then me, Adrian, and, but we have all of it, you know, you, if you think about the time when you were in eighth grade and you were going to high school and you were like, oh, it's an opportunity for me to totally change my look, you know, and no one's going to know, no one's going to call me out as being a

• 34:20Speaker 01

  fraud or inauthentic, because nobody knows me yet. So you can actually change yourself. So we have all of that within us. And in acting, that's, that's what we do, right? We find the parts within ourselves that can, that are the villain, that could do what that villain does, or the parts within ourselves that are romantic, and we can play that, that romantic part.

• 34:45Speaker 01

  You know, at the end of the day, that's, you know, that, what was the question? I'm sorry. I don't even know what the question was. The meta nature, the surrealistic Oh, the Vince part. Nature of playing that character. Yes, and yes. The way you were living. Exactly. So, when I got the role of Vince, I said no to that role. You were like doing a documentary in Mexico or something like that, right? Yeah, I was still attempting to maintain my creative integrity by doing a documentary about Cuban hip-hop. I was sneaking into Cuba, and I had a thousand dollars to my name. I had a camera, I was gonna make that film, and then I was like, you know what? I'll make money later, and in the meantime, I'll make a great film.

• 35:29Speaker 01

  And then I get this offer for this show called Entourage. I read the script, and I'm like, this is the most superficial, you know, this is not, these are not the kind of values that I want to promote. And I said, no. And then they kept coming back to me, and I was like, I don't do TV. It's not TV, it's HBO. And, no, I don't, you know, I don't, I kept saying no, essentially, and then finally, I, you know, I came to terms with the fact that if I didn't say yes, eventually, I was gonna, Hollywood would turn its back on me entirely. Your manager was gonna fire you. Right, yeah. Find a new, find a new manager. And so I did end up taking the role, and I had to, I mean, I would say, I had the hardest

• 36:12Speaker 01

  time out of all the cast, and they're all fine actors, but to play that part was so different than who I was at the time. And so it was not easy to become Vince. And the more I did it, yeah, the more praise I would get from the directors and producers and creators of the show, and then the show comes out, and then now the fans start giving me thumbs up. Then I would go out in the world, and people would expect, they wanted me to be the character because they're so familiar with it. So, I'd walk into a room, and I would get instant approval, and then rewarded every time I showed up in the Vince milieu.

• 36:57Speaker 01

  So, yeah, I started to indulge that. For the sake of the fans, but also because I was parlaying that into other opportunities. And then suddenly, the thing you're performing, the thing you're pretending, becomes you.

• 37:13Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 37:13Speaker 01

  When you do it enough.

• 37:14Rich Roll?

  Right. The lines get incredibly blurred. And I suspect the defense mechanisms come up, or the rationalizations, like, "Well, yeah, but at some point, I'm gonna get back to the documentaries." Or, you know, "What is the narrative that you're telling yourself to justify the behavior?" Or does that just go out the window?

• 37:35Speaker 01

  Well, yeah. Look, I did make Teenage Paparazzo at the height of my celebrity. So I was still, on some level, maintaining my connection to art. And remaining grounded on some level. Which is, I think, what allowed me to come back to Earth now. Because had I been, if I truly believed, you know, you have to believe, you have to allow yourself to believe that you're somehow worthy of the attention and worthy. Otherwise, it feels so dissociative, like you're just like, it's not...

• 38:14Rich Roll?

  But there's a lot of actors that don't feel worthy of that. And that's what really creates the psychological dilemma.

• 38:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. No, it's a tricky thing, because nobody really is better than anyone else, right? No one's somehow, and you have to make excuses for it. And then, over time, over history, it happens with, you know, wealthy people. Or people somehow convince themselves that they're better than other people. And it's because, you know, if you're, you know, royalty is because your blood is different, and you're somehow special. And there's this rationalization that you somehow deserve all of the riches and the spoils of this thing. So you rationalize it so that you can keep having more of it, and taking more, and taking more. Because if you realize that, you know, somehow, there's something amiss,

• 39:05Speaker 01

  you know, then you start coming down to Earth, and you have to start letting it all go.

• 39:09Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah.

• 39:10Speaker 01

  Which is really hard.

• 39:11Rich Roll?

  I mean, you're in this for, like, a decade, right?

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Twenty years.

• 39:15Rich Roll?

  So, you know, the constant...

• 39:19Rich Roll?

  Approval and the feeding of the ego, I mean, over that extended period of time has to really do a number on you.

• 39:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, and attention, attention is, it's a drug of sorts. It's, humans crave attention. We, it's like, you know, like a puppy, you can, you know, pet him and they'll like it. But humans need like that approval, that acknowledgement, that, you know, the attention itself. And in a, in a media-based culture where all the attention goes to the few that, you know, get clicked on, the rest of us start to feel like, you know, who's looking out for me? You break down the, the breakdown of communities and the family unit and people are living in more isolation on their phones and in technology and in their little tiny one-bedroom apartments.

• 40:11Speaker 01

  So, yeah, it's, it's intoxicating to have all that attention. You want more of it.

• 40:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and yet, I mean, when I watched Teenage Paparazzo, you had, you know, a significant level of self-awareness around it to at least explore the meaning of it. Cause the, the real, the real narrative of that movie is exploring what fame is, what creates fame, and what does it all mean? Like going behind, you know, the velvet rope of the media machine to see how, you know, the sausage is made.

• 40:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:42Rich Roll?

  You know, and, and, and, you know, when you kind of ingratiate yourself finally into the paparazzi community and they accept you, like you're not there to like, you know, put them on blast or anything like that. I mean, it's pretty fascinating, that, that whole like kind of subculture and ecosystem.

• 40:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, that was such a fun movie to make. It really was. I got to infiltrate the, the media machine from like the vantage of a celebrity. You know, I had a lot of access that, you know, another filmmaker wouldn't have. And to be able to use my position and take advantage of, you know, what I had accomplished as an actor to make a film. Nobody else, the thing I'm proud of is nobody else could have made that film. Because I don't think anybody else would have made that film.

• 41:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:27Speaker 01

  If you're famous, you don't want to rock the boat. You know, you want to just like, okay. In fact, a lot of the Entourage guys pulled me aside and they're like, what are you doing with this film? Because I was hanging out with Paris Hilton and like, you know, glimpsing into like her experience from her perspective. And of course, when you hang out with Paris Hilton, all the gossip rags start, you know, writing about it.

• 41:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  They don't know.

• 41:49Rich Roll?

  And you create your own, it's so easily manipulated. When you're like, I'm going to go to Paris's house and we're going to walk out together and Austin's going to take our picture.

• 41:57Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 41:57Rich Roll?

  And then two days later, it's going to be everywhere.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the, the, the opportunity to just indulge the meta-ness of that Hall of Mirrors, where it's, we're creating the stories, the paparazzi are taking the bait and they're using those stories to generate for their publications. And then now we're making a film about that. And then Austin, little paparazzi is becoming, it was so.

• 42:22Rich Roll?

  He's becoming famous in the making of that. Like the meta layers of it, like just continue to unfold.

• 42:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. And now we are living in that exact meta-reality. The fractured.

• 42:33Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:34Speaker 01

  You know, Hall of Mirrors, that, you know, that I think that movie sort of preempted. And you mentioned, you know, we were early days, it was, you know, Instagram didn't exist.

• 42:47Rich Roll?

  Right, it was all about those magazines.

• 42:48Speaker 01

  Right. The internet was a new thing at the time.

• 42:51Rich Roll?

  Not nearly as relevant as they were then, but now the phone is a hundredfold, what those things kind of did to our brains.

• 42:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, and there are all these people that have 41 million followers. And I'm like, who is that?

• 43:03Rich Roll?

  I've never heard of that person.

• 43:04Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 43:05Rich Roll?

  How could 41 million people know who this person is? And I've never heard of this person?

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I, there was, I think there was like a, maybe a 30 second. Little edited clip where we tip a hat to the coming technologies. It was like, we just, because they were new, like Twitter.

• 43:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Twitter and Facebook.

• 43:26Speaker 01

  Facebook.

• 43:26Rich Roll?

  Just literally a one second.

• 43:28Speaker 01

  That was it. And then it was like, what's gonna come next? All this. And so.

• 43:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. It just seems, it seems so innocent now comparatively, I suppose.

• 43:39Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 43:39Rich Roll?

  But it's the same thing. It's just writ a little bit larger.

• 43:45Rich Roll?

  But to be in the mix of all of that, you know, for that long of a period of time and, and, you know, having to kind of be a part of that machine while trying to maintain some level of dignity and integrity. Like, while you're getting paid tons of money and, you know, all the, you know, experiences that, that come with that. Being, what were you, like 27, 28 years old?

• 44:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. That's when it really hit. It took off.

• 44:16Rich Roll?

  And so what was the interior experience of the young Adrian while you were in the midst of all of it?

• 44:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was, I was, I fancied myself a spiritual person. I was a good person, you know, but, you know, in retrospect, I made a lot of compromises to my, my soul, my, you know, my ethics.

• 44:40Speaker 01

  In order to keep climbing, you know, keep getting to the next level. Yeah. And I, and I was doing environmental work and I was.

• 44:48Rich Roll?

  Right. That's always been a part of who you are.

• 44:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:51Rich Roll?

  Like, I think there's this temptation to look at that experience and say, you were off your path, or you were on the wrong trajectory. And I think you were on the correct trajectory the entire, like that, those experiences needed to happen in order for you to become the person you are today. It's all, it's all fine. It's all good. Like.

• 45:14Speaker 01

  Well, we want to be reductive. We want to like make it pat, you know? Oh, you know, you were on the wrong path. Now you're on the right path. It's, you know, it's messy. Life is messy. And I guess I like to think of it more as like not, you know, binary, but more. Embodied, like, are you more connected with your true nature versus ignoring parts of yourself in order to have this little ride and, you know, the illusion of self, like, oh, I'm this big Hollywood fancy guy, you know, as opposed to what's really going on deep down inside and what's your purpose here on this planet? To serve the world and to, you know, be, you know, to be of service to your neighbors.

• 45:59Speaker 01

  That's how I see it now.

• 46:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, this was an experience that you had that was an expression of some aspect of who you are. It taught you a lot. You've learned lessons from it and that's allowed you to mature and express yourself in a different way.

• 46:15Speaker 01

  And more importantly, I survived it.

• 46:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 46:17Speaker 01

  Because some people aren't that lucky, yeah.

• 46:20Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 46:21Speaker 01

  So I'm glad I survived it and came out the other side so that I could, you know, bring the gold of that wisdom, of the experience and then now share it.

• 46:32Rich Roll?

  Right. So walk me through the process of kind of coming to terms with that experience and, you know, wrestling with it, reckoning with it to kind of motivate you to find more meaning or go on this quest towards greater self-actualization.

• 46:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's a predominant perspective, I think, in liberal culture that's, you know, that thinks that somehow we can save the world, that we can save the environment, you know, that the government's gonna, you know, pay for all these services that are gonna help you out there. I've really come to terms with how important it is that I take personal responsibility for myself and I take ownership of how I am and how I, you know, show up. I think Krishnamurti said, it was like, we heal the world when there's a transformation of the individual.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  And that mentality really struck home for me because I was trying to save the world. I was trying to, you know, make all this money, do all this stuff to go out and proselytize and tell everybody how they needed to behave in order to help the oceans or do this, that and the other. And I really did believe that I was...

• 47:57Speaker 01

  I was a good guy. I did all the right things. I was, look, I'm making all this money. So like, obviously, I'm doing something right. And then I started to chip away at that, that belief system. And I started to see, look under the hood and I realized there was so much that I was ignoring. And a lot of the things that I was doing where it was hurting other people or was at least ignoring their experience for my own sake. And, and I, and I had to get clean and take responsibility for what I was actually doing and get, I guess, you know, it's the awakening where you finally open your eyes and you realize what's actually happening as opposed to just what you believe, what you're projecting, you know, what the fantasy of, of your life is.

• 48:43Speaker 01

  And so the first step was opening my eyes and seeing the harsh reality of what actually is, what's, what is, not just what I'd been, you know, indulging.

• 48:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, there's this idea that the impact that you seek to have on the world is calibrated to the extent to which you are embodying that value system in your own self, right? We can say, we're, you know, I'm trying to do this, that and the other. But if you're living in a manner that's incongruent with that, or you have yet to reach a certain level of maturity where you're espousing those values, where you can actually walk the talk, it will, you may, you may have some success with that, but ultimately, you're never going to achieve potential with that and it will ring somewhat shallow.

• 49:36Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 49:37Rich Roll?

  So that awakening piece, like, was there a specific moment or a bottom? Like, I'm somebody who's been in recovery for a long time. So I tend to like, look at these things through that lens of, you know, kind of 12-step for an actor. But that idea of, you know, that low moment where it all comes crashing down? Or was it a slow?

• 50:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I actually got into the 12-step. You know, philosophy, I guess, which has been very helpful to me. I came to believe in God through this process. You know, I started opening myself up to. For so long, I was so arrogant and so in my head and cynical and godless and nihilistic. Really, ultimately, until I started embracing some of these frameworks. 12 steps is an incredible framework that has a lot of wisdom, a lot of.

• 50:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I guess there was this gnawing sense of dread that something was bad was gonna happen to me. Because things were just too good. You know, when you're high and like you're half asleep, things feel very cozy and comfy. But you're not able to actually see what's on the horizon. But I felt something, you know, and I didn't know what it was. And I was like, things can't be this good forever, right? Can they? You know, flying around the world, going to all the parties, making all the money, getting all the shows. And then rock bottom hit suddenly. And it was from like a totally unlikely place.

• 51:18Speaker 01

  I was dating somebody who, who basically, in no uncertain words, said, you are a horrible human being. And you need to take a big look at yourself. I'm out. And dumped me. And I was so incensed and it was incredulous. I was like, you're gonna dump me? Have you seen my house? Have you seen my status? Have you seen all the things that I've accomplished? You're gonna leave me? I couldn't believe it. And on the way out, she gave me a list of things to look at. And I, I took that list and I was like, listen, I love you.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  And I think you're out of your mind. This list is correct, like, none of this is me. This is, I'm fine with all this stuff. But because I love you and I respect you, I promise I will take a hard look at all this. So after she left, I took, I sat down, I started looking at the list.

• 52:22Speaker 01

  And slowly but surely, I started to realize that she was right and that one after the other were things that I had all but ignored.

• 52:32Rich Roll?

  So what was on her list?

• 52:35Speaker 01

  Come on. Well, you know, your relationship to sex, your relationship to drugs and alcohol and escapism and indulgences, chasing shiny objects, selfishness, you know, indulging in destructive patterns, that kind of stuff.

• 52:58Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 52:59Speaker 01

  And I was like, what are you talking about? I'm fine. I got it all figured out. Everything's great. I do, I mean, you an environment goodwill ambassador, for Christ's sake. It's like, come on.

• 53:07Rich Roll?

  As long as you have that, then it helps justify the other stuff. Meanwhile, you're having fun and your life is actually going well.

• 53:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 53:13Rich Roll?

  So it's hard to look at.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  And the confirmation bias, like, everybody in the world is telling me, keep going.

• 53:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 53:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 53:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 53:20Speaker 01

  You're on the right path. Keep making, you know, television shows.

• 53:25Rich Roll?

  I had this woman on the show yesterday named Anna Lemke, and she's a psychiatrist and runs the Addiction Medicine Clinic at Stanford. She's got this new book out called Dopamine Nation that's about to come out. And what's interesting about her thesis in this book, she shows up in that documentary, Social Dilemma, like, the idea that, that we need to look at addiction more broadly, especially in this technological era where everything is impulsive us in an addictive way. But what I had never really kind of fully grasped until I read this book was this idea, and this is, this will come back to you, that when we're in this relentless pursuit

• 54:10Rich Roll?

  of pleasure, and you're somebody who is kind of living that at a higher level, that ultimately the pain that we've crafted our lives to so desperately avoid will slingshot back, you know, in great proportion to the extent to which we're trying to avoid it, right? So that, you know, relentless pursuit of being just ahead of the FOMO, you know, and chasing the party and doing all the things when you're in this perpetual state of, of dopamine inducement, you know, at a, at a crazy level.

• 54:46Rich Roll?

  Is not only unsustainable, but is setting you up for this great fall.

• 54:50Speaker 01

  Mm hmm. Wow. That's it?

• 54:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 54:52Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 54:53Rich Roll?

  So boom, the woman leaves you.

• 54:56Speaker 01

  Boom.

• 54:58Rich Roll?

  With the laundry list of character defects.

• 55:01Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I started a long road of going into the pain. Going into the suffering and all the things deep down inside that I'd been avoiding probably for 30 years since I was eight or younger. All that childhood trauma that I was masking or floating, just hovering just above. And it hurts. So of course you want to avoid it. Of course it makes sense. I was protecting myself from it. But now at this stage in my life, I was like, okay, let's

• 55:41Speaker 01

  you know, let's look, let's look under the bed. Let's look in the closet. Let's see what boogeymen are there.

• 55:46Rich Roll?

  Right. And what was the process for doing that?

• 55:49Speaker 01

  Well, first, I mean, it was just a long process of, well, first like getting advice, you know, asking for help, reading books, learning.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Finally, reading that book, Iron John, that my mom gave me when I was younger.

• 56:07Rich Roll?

  Robert Bly.

• 56:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, which I never read. I'm like, I don't need to be.

• 56:11Rich Roll?

  He's the OG in the whole kind of divine masculine space, right? Like go out into the woods and bang on drums and stuff.

• 56:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, connect with your beast, connect with the beast within you, become dangerous, and then transcend that, but use it for good, I guess. But become embodied and become all, you know, the range. To me, it's not about being good or bad. It's about, you know, coming to terms with and being in connection with all of the layers of your nature. So but first I had to stop all the patterns, all the escape patterns. So I had to, you know, I went celibate.

• 56:55Speaker 01

  For some time, I stopped drinking. All the things that I would use, all the tools I would use to escape, all the dopamine fixes that I had laying around all over town.

• 57:07Rich Roll?

  Going on a dopamine fast of sorts.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 57:09Rich Roll?

  I did a year of celibacy. I mean, it was the most instructive. In early sobriety, I did that and it was so revelatory. And it just puts this mirror up and you realize, at least in my case, like I realized how much of my behavior was oriented around gaining female approval and how fucked up my disposition was or my habits were around relating to the opposite sex.

• 57:35Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, yeah. I share that sentiment. Yeah. And, you know, and all the things that come with it too. You know, the pornography and the way it shapes your relationship to sex itself. And, you know, and then, you know, the biggest thing that really helped me was recognizing that I had a deep hurt because of what I'd been taught at a younger age about sex. You know, and that was from disembodied men

• 58:16Speaker 01

  or men who were dysfunctional or destructive, toxic, if you will.

• 58:22Rich Roll?

  Meaning that you should just be in pursuit of it or that it's a notch in your belt or?

• 58:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. In the absence of having that divine masculine role model growing up, there were a number of men who would teach me how to womanize or how to lie or get away with things, indulge in women as opposed to be in service of or respect of our counterparts. And then men who were frankly inappropriate with me sexually, who, you know, had some pedophilia tendencies that, you know, I was around when I was at a young age. You know, there's this one guy who, you know, used to tell me like dirty jokes when I was younger.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  And And I thought it was funny, but I realized at an older age, like, that's, I excuse that kind of behavior because that's, that's how I was trained, essentially. And I thought it was normal.

• 59:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And you were desperate for a male figure in your life, I imagine.

• 59:35Speaker 01

  Of course, yeah.

• 59:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 59:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And that gets imprinted.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then, of course, just not being, being there. You know, my father just bounced when I was younger. So that, so I learned that, how to escape, how to run.

• 59:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 59:55Speaker 01

  How to not be there.

• 59:56Rich Roll?

  It was interesting in the documentary, When You Meet Him, and he's so, I mean, the word passive is used, but he, he's so bereft of emotional tools to even know how to communicate properly. And you relate your own kind of passivity with his, but I just saw somebody who, who was extremely, like, just lacked any emotional aptitude whatsoever.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. Sweet guy, you know, but I think he sort of hides behind the sweetness. And he should read Iron John, you know, because we, I believe there's a, there's a male frequency that is, that is harsh, and you know, and if you don't connect with that, you know, you, you know, you let the world just throw you around, you know?

• 1:00:53Rich Roll?

  Well, it's an interesting moment right now in the conversation around masculinity. I feel like masculinity has been just lumped in with toxic masculinity as one thing. And I know, you know, a big part of your journey and what you talk about is, is a reclaiming or a redefining of masculinity in a healthy context. You can call it divine masculinity or any number of things. But in this moment right now, there's this sense that we need to be embarrassed as men, or we're not allowed to be men, or it's unclear what the appropriate role is for...

• 1:01:35Rich Roll?

  A man because of the culture. So we should just sort of step back. And it's confusing as somebody who's a father also. Like, what is the role? Like, OK, provider, protector. But I also need to be emotionally available. And I need to be strong, but I also need to be the guy who goes to every school event. And, you know, it's, it becomes like, it's much more complicated than it was in the era of, you know, our parents or my parents who are a little bit older than yours, where it was a little bit more binary. And that had its problems, of course. But I find oftentimes like, I can't do all of these things all of the time. Right?

• 1:02:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it has to be that hard, though. If you're, the way I see it, heart-centered masculine energy leads like your, your values and the direction that you're oriented to comes from, you know, your ethics, your heart, like, you know, your love for, you know, your family, protecting the world, protecting people, doing the right thing. That's where your direction comes from. And then it's all the other parts of you. As a man, I find like the, the beast in me that helps me go execute and go make it so.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  And to protect, yes, I have to, I have to learn to be dangerous. In fact, like when I didn't, when I wasn't in touch with my ability to, to be destructive, when I was almost, you know, in many ways emasculated by a sort of a feminist ideology where no one, like culturally, no one wanted me to be dangerous. So they made me, they, they emasculated that part of me. And then I became more dangerous because all of that came out in shadow. And I started doing things that were subconsciously destructive. And I wasn't stepping into that, that beast part of me to, to actually protect and serve women and my community.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  And so I feel like you have to be in touch with that, but like be oriented from the heart space.

• 1:03:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:57Rich Roll?

  As an actor, that's sort of traditionally conjured as a feminine expression, right? It's a more feminine energy. To be an artist, to be a musician, those things would be associated, you know, at that end of the spectrum. On some level, I feel like the conversation around divine masculinity has an inherent femininity to it, because you're saying, "We need to learn how to connect with the heart," which is not traditionally a masculine attribute, right?

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  Well, we're both, right?

• 1:04:29Rich Roll?

  Of course, we're all, we're an amalgam of these energies. So first, we have to recognize the inherent femininity within all of us as males.

• 1:04:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I think, you know, maybe back in the day, things were more binary and simple, in which men attempted to be, you know, so masculine that, you know, it was just like undeniable that you were a man, right? You had to prove it so much that you lost touch of the subtlety and the dynamic within ourselves. But now, I, you know, I find myself to be really, you know, even leveled, still very much in touch with my feminine, and yet, I've started to cultivate and fashion the more edgier masculine parts of myself to really bring myself into balance.

• 1:05:20Rich Roll?

  And what does that look like? Like, how have you done that?

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  Well, I now live on a farm, so I have plenty of...

• 1:05:29Rich Roll?

  Hands are in the soil.

• 1:05:30Speaker 01

  Hands in the soil, you know, yeah, using my body, my hands, and working my muscles, and lifting heavy things, and building things, and, you know, wanting to protect my kingdom and setting it up so that there's a safe space for people to come and be, you know, to, for my family to live in.

• 1:05:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. So much of this, you know, in addition to being, you know, in this period of time where... You know, so many young people grow up without dads. We're also in a, in a culture in which we've, we've been robbed of traditional rites of passage, you know, that teach us how to become heart-centered men in so many ways. And as a result, it's no surprise that you see these movements out there of, of men congregating, trying to recapture some aspect of that, or, or to create that for themselves later in life, in their own lives. And I think that that's also why you see all these, you know, whether it's Spartan, or like all these challenges, or running a marathon.

• 1:06:36Rich Roll?

  It's because we don't have what we used to have as tribal cultures that would put us through the wringer and teach us what it means to do something hard and the confidence that comes with that and the kind of acceptance that you would receive within the tribal community for passing those, you know, rites.

• 1:06:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. Absolutely. You know, as our culture expands and becomes more spread out throughout the world, it's harder and harder to have that, that those intimate rites of passage that is, are passed down. So then we have these, these sort of placeholder, or these, these alternatives which are.

• 1:07:22Rich Roll?

  Stand-ins.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, stand-ins for, for that. Sports teams and, you know, all that kind of stuff. I, I personally have been doing a lot of men's work, working with other men to, to bring each other through these rites of passage. And it's been so, so important, so helpful.

• 1:07:43Rich Roll?

  And what are those experiences like? Like therapeutic or more like tactile?

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  I mean, life-saving, you know, just enriching, just feel so blessed to have the kinds of men that I do in my life, which I never had. You know, I never had brothers, I never had those parental role models, male parental role models, but now I do through my brothers. And now I'm an adult, I'm a man. I, I now can start to, to work on being that role model for others, but to have other men to.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  To model things for me and to push against me and to hold me accountable. Iron sharpens iron, so there's a lot of, you know, the masculine energy wants to have that pushback and that the wrestling or the, you know, the horseplay is so important. And then, you know, the desire, the philosophical impetus to make the world a better place. You know, I used to hang out with people who wasn't really interested in making the world a better place or just where's the next fix or, you know, where's the next good time? A lot of Machiavellian, how can I get mine and how can I exploit the situation to make more money or get more fame or get more things?

• 1:09:03Speaker 01

  Now, the men that I surround myself with want to lead the world into, I guess, a better, more stable way of being. Yeah, it's great, man. Yeah, it's awesome. How do we scale this up? Yeah, we've talked about it, you know, because it's not fair. It's like, how can you be rich if your neighbors, you can't be rich unless your neighbors are rich? You can't be fully divine masculine if your neighbors aren't, you know? We have to do this en masse, like at scale. And there's not one size fits all. But I would encourage everybody to seek, seek groups, seek local groups that meet

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  in person to wrestle with this because there's not one formula, but it's just showing up. And that's, that's the most important lesson that I've learned from my men's groups. There's not one thing you're supposed to learn, except just to show up. Don't, don't retreat, don't dip, because we all, all of us in the group have, and we've all, we've all shared this, that we all have imposter syndrome. Why do I belong here? You know, this sense of belonging, like, oh, all these men are amazing. Who am I to be here with these incredible humans? And they all feel the same way.

• 1:10:31Speaker 01

  And everybody is wrestling with the self doubt or the insecurity. And, and so we just remind ourselves, just keep showing up, just keep being vulnerable and keep opening yourself, because when you do, it helps the group and we help each other. So I would just say, To you out there, if you are seeking more, you want more from life and from you want to be, you want to improve yourself and as Christian Merdy says, transform the individual and go find others and do that together. But all you really have to do is just show up.

• 1:11:09Rich Roll?

  And be honest. That's the big piece. And I think a lot of men, you know, really struggle with the ability to, you know, summon the courage to be vulnerable, especially amongst other men. But by creating a safe space in order for that to be communicated, I think the benefits of that, you know, can't be overstated. I mean, this is something I learned, immediately in 12-step. And I, of course, get a lot of that out of men's groups that I go to in that context. But I also have another men's group that I meet with once a week. And it's like seven guys, it's mediated by a therapist. Been doing it for coming up, probably coming up on three years now.

• 1:11:51Speaker 01

  Nice.

• 1:11:52Rich Roll?

  And it's just been unbelievable. And that's not an addiction-based one. That's just, we get together, here's what's going on with me, what's going on with you, we mutually support each other. And now we know each other so well that, that we can, we know, we know everybody's blind spots, or we've seen the patterns. Like, you keep doing this thing, and you say you're not going to do it, and then you've done it again. Or, we give the feedback, and the person doesn't take the feedback, and then we have to deal with the problem and the aftermath of it. And it's just been amazing, you know. And it's something that, I think, you know, again, to like, look to camera, like, if you're out there, this is something you can do in your own community with your friends. Maybe you get a therapist involved, or somebody else who has some level of expertise, but

• 1:12:36Rich Roll?

  if you don't have access to that, there's nothing stopping you from getting a group of dudes together to just talk in a safe space where it's like, this is confidential.

• 1:12:46Speaker 01

  But the intention is different than like getting together with your friends and going out to a bar.

• 1:12:50Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Or getting with your friends and going out and like, you know, four wheeling.

• 1:12:54Rich Roll?

  No, we're not, we're not going to watch the game and it's not activity based. Like this is very focused.

• 1:12:59Speaker 01

  Right, and that, and that is maybe the challenge because we haven't been taught how to do that necessarily, you know, so I guess maybe not to oversimplify, it's like, oh, just so easy, just go do it, but, you know, I guess it's important to just note that it's getting together with other men, specifically men, and sitting in an allotted time, in a safe space where you communicate vulnerably and it's very confidential so that you can start to open up some of the lower, the deeper layers of what's going on inside that, you know, get pushed down because of the daily grind or because of, you know, life that takes precedent.

• 1:13:49Rich Roll?

  So, how have you calibrated the growth for yourself? Like when you think about what's important to you now versus then, can you gauge that with some level of objectivity?

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm in such a good place now. I don't, dare I say, I'm not in a, an overt growth period. I'm more in now, let me take what I've learned and start applying it in my life. So, that's what I'm doing. You know, I spent the past two, two and a half years with a lot of challenge and struggle and learning and growth and shedding and rethinking everything. And now, based on what I've learned, I can go out and start to, to do, to build, to create. So it's a really, really exciting time for me.

• 1:14:46Speaker 01

  And I decided to express that by buying land in, in Texas and building a community and doing a lot of the things that I would tell other people to do. Get, get in touch with nature, connect with the land and grow your own food and...

• 1:15:05Rich Roll?

  While you're living in Brooklyn.

• 1:15:06Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah.

• 1:15:08Rich Roll?

  Exactly.

• 1:15:09Speaker 01

  Exactly. So, um, yeah, and it's, uh, I feel great. And I'm starting to learn some of the skills that I think my spirit craved. Building, carpentry. I used to be so, you know, I didn't want to be dirty, you know, it was like, didn't like bugs and nature was scary. And now, you know, now I'm like dancing with it. And it's, it's opened up a whole aspect of myself that I, is just so, it's grounding. It's grounding is what it is.

• 1:15:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:15:46Speaker 01

  It's stable.

• 1:15:47Rich Roll?

  It's, uh, you're in a healthy relationship. You've got this farm. You're growing food. You got your permaculture certification.

• 1:15:55Speaker 01

  I did. I got my permaculture certification, yeah.

• 1:15:57Rich Roll?

  And that kind of thing of having your hands in the dirt is, you know, the microcosm of the macrocosm conversation about how can we live more in alignment with nature? You know, how can we create greater harmony? Not just with respect to the relationship with the land and the foods that we eat, but how we think about and practice commerce and how we live our professional lives and how we navigate relationships. Like, everything is a dance. And it's all about like moving towards greater symbiosis.

• 1:16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I get to express my unique perspective of what that looks like in my little world, right? And I get to be a laboratory for what's possible. And, and I think we all need to, on some level, experiment with new ways of being in, in, in community and new ways of exchanging value that, that aren't what we're told. You know, it's not all about the stock market or dollars and currency. Sometimes, you know, there are other ways that we can really start to support each other. It's not all just pursuing the, the American dream, which I think.

• 1:17:13Speaker 01

  It's pretty much all but debunked at this point, right? So this has been really exciting. Right now, we're looking to invite people to live with us as well on the land. We have plenty of space to have a few people building on that particular property. And so we're exploring all the different ways that we can structure the agreement amongst people on how to live and share space and share effort and contribute so that we can be additive, not extractive, from nature itself. So nature-focused, nature-centered, and nature being a shareholder within the community.

• 1:17:56Rich Roll?

  It's inspirational, but I also like the kind of knee-jerk that I have in my mind is we've been trying to figure this out for a long time. Every time there's some communal experiment, personalities get involved and it ends up imploding. It turns into, you know, Wild Wild Country or some version of that, you know? And so how do you avoid those pitfalls? Like, what can be learned from other experiments in alternative living arrangements to find a new perfected way of doing it that is harmonious?

• 1:18:27Speaker 01

  And I think that's exactly the right questioning. That's the right line of questioning because it hasn't worked, right? Or maybe the ones that have worked, we just don't hear about because they're working. It's always the ones that collapse and have some sensational cult leader and a bunch of Kool-Aid that we hear about, right? So those stories strike the imagination, our imagination, and they're fear-based, right? I mean, Charles Manson or, you know, Jim Jones. That's what you think of when you think commune. Yeah, obviously disaster, right? Branch Davidian, like all the ones.

• 1:19:12Speaker 01

  So. Or scaled up communism. Exactly, exactly, yeah. So that's why I believe that we need to, we need to double down and do it more to try and solve for some of those, those pitfalls that they fell into. So that's something that I've been considering as well as, you know, how do you, how do you create it so that there's not one cult of personality? There's like one ego bankrolling the whole thing, you know? So initially I was like, well, I'll just bankroll the whole thing and then everybody can come and, you know, do a barn raising, you know? And dressed like Amish or something, you know? That's bullshit, right? And you're the landed gentry. Yeah. And you have serfs.

• 1:19:57Speaker 01

  Exactly. So I was like, okay, that's not going to work because now it's still my operation. I'm the one who bankrolled it and there's a subconscious, if not overt, sense of me being. There's a power dynamic. Exactly, a power dynamic. So one thing I've been exploring is, and this is all open, like we haven't defined it at all, but what about, um, you know, taking the profit motive, taking the money out of the equation, right? So you create a land trust, you basically put the land into a trust and the land becomes at the top of the hierarchy. So we all work for the land. In service of the land. Exactly. We all work to steward the natural environment to,

• 1:20:42Speaker 01

  to be, you know, the most bountiful and beautiful it can be. And so anyone who lives there agrees to put their focus and life force into that. And also, you know, I've been exploring, you know, like alternative currencies like Bitcoin and. That's right. You called me when you were in Miami at the big Bitcoin conference. Yeah, using those kinds of technologies to create a hyper local currency, which is fully transparent. So when people are living there, you know, I'm not trying to exploit you because I was a first mover on this piece of land and now I get to live pretty well. You're working your ass off to pay me, you know, premium.

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  Again, back to the can't be rich unless your neighbors are rich. Like, no, like, I don't want to make money off you. I want to, I want to work with you to serve the land. So if we, if you have full transparency, then everybody knows what everything costs, what you paid for what. And there's no subterfuge or exploitation of the, through the ignorance.

• 1:21:51Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. Yeah, that transparency, I feel like could solve a lot of those problems. Yeah. Where everybody's on a level playing field and they can see exactly what's going on.

• 1:22:01Speaker 01

  Right, and, and on a small scale, I feel like you can really do that well. You know, the minute it gets big and you have, you know, tentacles of a machine or a system that you can't, you don't have eyes on, it becomes more difficult to.

• 1:22:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:22:18Speaker 01

  For oversight.

• 1:22:19Rich Roll?

  You gotta start somewhere. And I think the blockchain and, and, you know, cryptocurrency and social contracts and all of that provide this unprecedented opportunity to play out experiments in a way that we've never been able to do before.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 1:22:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're, I think we're in a great renaissance of opportunity for people to experiment and try things. And I, I think it's, it's a positive thing if we do innovate, not just in business, but also in ways of communing with other people. You know, because as our, our traditional institutions start to, you know, break down, or maybe they're not as effective as they could be, or they're not protecting the environment, or they're not protecting poor people, marginalized communities, we need to step up, take personal responsibility and do it.

• 1:23:12Rich Roll?

  Sure, and self-sufficiency becomes a premium.

• 1:23:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And, and there's no better way to health than to take responsibility for where your food comes from and what you're putting into your body.

• 1:23:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, sure. I saw a cartoon or like a meme the other day and it was a, a caricature of a guy talking to an animal and he was like. You know, I'm so much smarter than you. You're you just you just have this small brain. And the animal looked at him and said, you're the only animal that pays to live here.

• 1:23:44Speaker 01

  That's so funny.

• 1:23:45Rich Roll?

  I'd never really thought about that. You know, like, think about that. So when you make the land, you know, the land is is the boss here. You're completely shifting perspective, like it's a whole different lens on the whole thing. And what if we all, I mean, it's obviously that's rooted in ancient traditions. And are you like, you're like 8% Native American, right?

• 1:24:08Speaker 01

  Oh, 12, I think.

• 1:24:10Rich Roll?

  Something like that? 12%?

• 1:24:12Speaker 01

  Just just under tax.

• 1:24:13Rich Roll?

  Of what tradition? Just underneath that.

• 1:24:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Well, and, you know, borrowing from all those traditional, you know, traditions. So because it's not defined as of yet, you know, we get to explore building our own unique little system, borrowing from those wisdoms of our old traditions and and also new philosophies, new ideas, new new technologies. That's it. That's really exciting to me. And we can just see if it works, you know? If it doesn't devolve into some sort of weird cult, you know?

• 1:24:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:24:50Speaker 01

  We'll be.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Keep me honest, okay?

• 1:24:54Rich Roll?

  Right. I will. Yeah. I think you're tiptoeing into cult leader status.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  I mean, look, I'm wearing the white pants.

• 1:24:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. You're halfway there. You got like a nice thing around your neck. You know, you could dial you up into that.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  Right. I've found antler.

• 1:25:06Rich Roll?

  Right. So get you and Russell Brand and Jared Lighto together and something could come out of that.

• 1:25:14Speaker 01

  Oh, that that was that was low, man.

• 1:25:16Rich Roll?

  Oh, no, but all three of the all all three of you beautiful men, you know, expressing themselves in interesting ways right now.

• 1:25:23Speaker 01

  That's funny.

• 1:25:24Rich Roll?

  But all all leaders of, you know, alternative ways of thinking and being, I think, in your own rights.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:25:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:34Speaker 01

  So you're in?

• 1:25:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm in. I want to come. I want to come and spend some time on the farm.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, come on out.

• 1:25:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I'm actually going to be in Austin, I think, in the fall or the winter. So I'll let you know. But I think it's cool. It's exciting. And I think it's cool that you're seeking out, like, when you're with with DuContra, when you're looking at a prospective investment.

• 1:25:59Rich Roll?

  And you're trying to establish like the level of impact or innovation that a certain company, you know, has the potential to be like, what does that look like? How do you make that decision?

• 1:26:12Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:26:12Rich Roll?

  Of getting, getting involved?

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, so we have four verticals that we use to make decisions about who we invest in. And they're, they're all reflective of the conversation we've been having. What we believe is like a, a winning combination of things that we need to invest in and support in order to make a better society. And that's about, you know, better humans. So better humans make better decisions. They make better businesses. They make a better world. So we have a vertical called human flourishing. So tools, technologies, medicines that help level up the human being. So health, wellness, mental health.

• 1:26:56Rich Roll?

  Plant medicines.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  Plant medicines.

• 1:26:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:26:58Speaker 01

  Exactly. Tools, both new and ancient, that will help level people up. That's one vertical. So community, communitas, like companies that are, are seeking to solve for some of the, the disconnect that we have in our society, the fractured communities. So how do we bring people together in really important and meaningful ways so that they can do the work to build a better future? What we, what we consume and how. So consumer goods. We call it do consumer. So better for the planet, better for you, stuff that we buy, how we consume it, supply chain, materials,

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  health and wellness, what's, what's the ingredients and stuff. So those are, that's the, that's a consumer vertical. And then finally, looking at money itself. So the future of finance, rethinking money and how we use it, and investing in tools and devices and systems that bring more equity and more access to the world's wealth. And, you know, of course, blockchain technologies, Bitcoin, and that sort of thing is like right up there in terms of the types of technologies that we think will actually be disruptive in a positive way.

• 1:28:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How do you reconcile the environmental footprint of crypto right now with your environmental work and sensibility? Obviously, there's work to be done here to kind of figure that part of the equation out.

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, maybe it's something that people haven't really, truly, fully recognized about me, but I've been a moderate environmentalist for a long time, potentially for my entire career as an environmentalist. I don't look for one-size-fits-all absolute panaceas to solve the entire world, all the environmental problems. There are trade-offs to everything that we do. And so I think we together need to start to create systems that, first of all, recognize what those trade-offs are, are honest about them, and then start to

• 1:29:15Speaker 01

  create systems that are better for people, better for the planet. But there's, I don't imagine that there's a moment in time in which our footprint becomes zero.

• 1:29:27Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  It's, our footprint is always going to at least be greater than zero because we are here, because we do create waste. But how can we create closed-loop systems and how can we create ways to help be regenerative about how we live and breathe and how we, you know, tread lightly on the planet? So with regards to Bitcoin, it's a new technology, and yes, it does have environmental challenges because of its energy consumption. But I think the net benefit of the technology to society overall is going to be a positive. Because while there may be some environmental

• 1:30:10Speaker 01

  challenges currently, that's going to ultimately get better and better.

• 1:30:14Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:30:15Speaker 01

  Because the incentive is for miners and Bitcoin, and Bitcoin as an industry, to find cheaper and less energy-intensive ways of mining. And then at a certain point, it'll cap out because you can't mine anymore. So then it'll drop to essentially zero. But ultimately, the technology will help to spawn innovations and support entrepreneurs and

• 1:30:42Speaker 01

  Different new technologies that will actually better the world ultimately across all sectors, including energy. So I think taking currencies away from a centralized place and bringing it to as many people as possible will actually create a lot more benefit for society at large and the environment.

• 1:31:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's pretty fascinating. I admit to knowing close to nothing about it, but I feel like, from what I do know, blockchain technology just holds unbelievable potential to change our world in ways we can't even fathom right now. The most obvious being like the transparency that comes with it, the efficiencies that can be established with it that will inherently reduce consumption and waste and things like that. But I feel like we've barely even begun to comprehend what that technology is gonna bring to all of us.

• 1:31:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. We were just talking about it on like a small scale at Kunsugi on the ranch. If there's transparency, you can't exploit your neighbors, right?

• 1:31:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:31:52Speaker 01

  You can't market up higher. But when there's so much murky transparency that suddenly...

• 1:32:02Rich Roll?

  And you create whatever story you want to create that serves your agenda.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  Right. And you overpay for things and you underdeliver and then all money, all finances are flowing through a centralized system that are taking pieces without adding value. So it's just highly inefficient and allows for a lot of exploitation. And when you have one-to-one direct exchange of value where it's fully transparent, it's gonna be so much, I think, more productive in the long run for industry, for business, for just the way we interact and share value.

• 1:32:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What's going on with the environmental work that you're doing? I saw, I mean, you were at a beach cleanup yesterday and I saw the video that you made about detergent pods.

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:32:54Rich Roll?

  I didn't know.

• 1:32:55Speaker 01

  Oh, I know.

• 1:32:56Rich Roll?

  I just assumed that that dissolves and that was figured out.

• 1:33:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:01Rich Roll?

  So, explain that a little bit.

• 1:33:02Speaker 01

  So, trade-offs, right?

• 1:33:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  You know, I've been playing in the world of trade-offs ever since I've been doing environmental work, because you recognize that even environmentalists are flying around the world to try and save the world and burning fossil fuels, you know? So, we gotta give ourselves a break and allow ourselves to think a little bit more open-minded about, you know, what solution really means. Is it about, you know, we are now saved and solved? Or is it about deepening our relationship to the way in which we consume, the way in which we show up? And just be more in touch with what those externalities look like and then take, own that, own that you've done something that has a detriment and may be correct for it.

• 1:33:47Speaker 01

  But these pods, I believed, like you, I was like, "Oh, solution." Right. Because they dissolve and you can't see them. You know, to the naked eye, to the naked eye, the environment is safe. But on a microscopic level, it's just plastic that's become melted and then dissolved into water. So, it's like a plastic goop in your laundry that then goes into, directly into the waste stream and into the oceans ultimately, or through, you know, your water treatment plant, which doesn't have the technology to actually address that particular substance.

• 1:34:23Rich Roll?

  You can't extract that.

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:34:25Rich Roll?

  And it doesn't break down.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  And the biggest...

• 1:34:27Rich Roll?

  It should be illegal. That's crazy.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Right. And now, we're getting into like centralized government. Like, should centralized government come in and tell you all the stuff that you need to do, you know? Or can we, together, open our eyes and start recognizing that, you know, a lot of these companies are...

• 1:34:47Speaker 01

  You know, they're greenwashing, or at least they're, you know, they're seducing us into a false sense of security when there are better solutions. And that's one thing at DuContra, what we're doing, you know, we're looking, we're really doing a deep dive. You know, we're not just investing, "Oh, it says it's green and it seems green and we're gonna invest in it so we feel good about it and we project an air of impact." No, we're actually looking at the realities of what those trade-offs are and recognizing, "Hey, we're gonna invest in this even though it's not a perfect solution, but we see it as a step towards a better solution, or it's a better trade-off than the one we have." So, we take our deep dives very seriously before we invest.

• 1:35:31Speaker 01

  And when we found Blueland, I mean, a great solution to these pod problems, and I didn't know myself that they were, these plastic pods were actually plastic. And so, Blueland came along and was like, "Much better solution."

• 1:35:47Rich Roll?

  Yes, so they're a detergent company that's figured that out?

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, so they do cleaning products, home cleaning products. They do soaps and detergents and all-natural ingredients and no plastic, zero plastic. They just sell, basically, I heard something, it was like, kinda like an Altoid for your laundry. It's like a little compressed tablet that you throw into your laundry, or then you throw one of those compressed tablets into a reusable jar for hand soap, or all-purpose cleaners and stuff like that.

• 1:36:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, sure. The greenwashing thing is out of control, you know, and layer on top of that, the fact that we live in a post-fact world and a culture that isn't just so resistant to embracing nuance. Like, you're talking about the trade-offs, like, everything has trade-offs, and that's true in the environmental movement, that's true in politics, that's true in everything. But we're now in this culture where everything is binary, bad, good, right, wrong, etc. Anybody who's tried to engineer a product and do it in a sustainable, conscious way understands how complicated it quickly gets. Like, "Well, we could use this ingredient, which is better than this one,

• 1:37:02Rich Roll?

  but it comes from Vietnam, and so we're gonna have to ship it from there. And this box is not plastic, it's cardboard, but it's gonna cost more. Or it uses this dye, which isn't great. It just quickly becomes a thing where you're chasing your tail. And if you want to do it so that it's of the most pristine, it's gonna be priced out of the market, and no one will buy it, and you'll go out of business." And that's the reality.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  Right. It's like, everybody wants the purest, most environmentally friendly product, but no one will pay for it.

• 1:37:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  Just like everybody...

• 1:37:38Rich Roll?

  And then you're an elitist asshole who's part of the problem, because it's only available to the elite.

• 1:37:44Speaker 01

  Only you can afford it, right.

• 1:37:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:37:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, or it's like our media diet, too. Everybody wants news that has solid information with news people that are...

• 1:37:55Rich Roll?

  As long as it lines up with your bias.

• 1:37:58Speaker 01

  Well, no, but I'm just saying that they don't want to pay for it.

• 1:38:00Rich Roll?

  Oh, right.

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  So we let commercials pay for it, and then commercials drive the content.

• 1:38:06Rich Roll?

  Right, exactly.

• 1:38:07Speaker 01

  Because if you want to actually pay...

• 1:38:08Rich Roll?

  I feel like that's changing a little bit. Like, you're seeing with Substack and everything that's going on, like, people are finding ways to do subscription services.

• 1:38:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:18Rich Roll?

  But it's serving to also bifurcate the market so much. Like, how many Substacks are you gonna subscribe to?

• 1:38:28Speaker 01

  Well, I think our society's just breaking down into smaller, more manageable pieces. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

• 1:38:34Rich Roll?

  No. I mean, there is no monoculture anymore.

• 1:38:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:38:38Rich Roll?

  Is that good or bad, I don't know.

• 1:38:40Speaker 01

  Right. Like, there's all the globalization concept, that we're all gonna be one big, same governing body.

• 1:38:47Rich Roll?

  No, we're all planets unto ourselves.

• 1:38:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:50Rich Roll?

  That's where it's headed.

• 1:38:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:38:52Rich Roll?

  The idea of a television show that would reach as many people as Entourage is almost impossible.

• 1:39:00Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:39:00Rich Roll?

  These days.

• 1:39:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:39:02Rich Roll?

  You know? Maybe that's good.

• 1:39:05Speaker 01

  I can't, I think it's good. I mean, how can you argue with evolution? I mean, it's doing its thing and we're part of it. And get on board.

• 1:39:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, is it evolution or is it devolution?

• 1:39:18Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's both.

• 1:39:19Rich Roll?

  Sometimes I'm not sure.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  It's both. It's expanding, contracting, expanding, contracting, breaking apart, rebuilding.

• 1:39:25Rich Roll?

  Are you optimistic?

• 1:39:27Speaker 01

  I am. I'm very optimistic.

• 1:39:29Rich Roll?

  So, explain that to me.

• 1:39:33Speaker 01

  Well, because I've let go of the ego part of me that thinks I know the way the world should be. And surrendered to the playfulness and the joy of just being a part of this existence. We're alive. That's, how can you not be optimistic? We're here. It's incredible.

• 1:39:58Rich Roll?

  I'm just gonna let that sit for a minute. I appreciate that. I find myself vacillating between being inspired and being despondent with what I see. And a lot of that is fueled by me opening up my phone and scrolling through a bunch of stuff and seeing, you know, some street in Germany that where cars are getting, you know, pushed down the road in a massive flood. And I just think like, we're never gonna figure this out.

• 1:40:26Speaker 01

  Oh, wait, did you think you were gonna live forever?

• 1:40:28Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:40:30Rich Roll?

  But meaning, as a parent also, it changes when you're a parent. Cause you think about the world that your kids are inheriting.

• 1:40:37Speaker 01

  Well, I do think we live forever. Maybe that's the difference. I believe that life is infinite and ever transmuting and changing and transforming. It's not ever the way you think it's gonna be. Even if, even if you have the best projections and the best predictions about what tomorrow's gonna look like, it's always gonna be a little bit different, right? So, I think let go with a healthy amount of ease your expectations. And so, I live.

• 1:41:13Speaker 01

  My everyday, not for how I imagine this world in my lifetime is going to be, but more for how I believe like future generations should be living. And I believe that those-

• 1:41:28Rich Roll?

  That's back to Krishnamurti.

• 1:41:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  The idea of being the physical, mental, emotional, spiritual embodiment of the person who's carrying a certain resonance that you would like the world to embody. It's really the only path forward. I mean, that has roots in Zen also.

• 1:41:46Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:41:47Rich Roll?

  The way to change the world is to change yourself.

• 1:41:49Speaker 01

  Yes. Does that, does that work for you?

• 1:41:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that works for me.

• 1:41:54Speaker 01

  Okay, cool.

• 1:41:55Rich Roll?

  No, I'm completely on that page. I'm completely on that page. When I don't, when you're talking about we, we, we live forever, is that um-

• 1:42:05Speaker 01

  Life-

• 1:42:05Rich Roll?

  About consciousness-

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  Life continues.

• 1:42:07Rich Roll?

  Life continues, certainly. But does your conscious, your consciousness is transmuted into something else?

• 1:42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you-

• 1:42:15Rich Roll?

  Or the oneness of consciousness, the, you know, the, your portion of that oneness then will find its way into some other expression.

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  We, we crave the continuity of self. Like I'm the same person I was yesterday that I am today. And though you trust me because you, you can rely on me being me.

• 1:42:36Rich Roll?

  But that's a very limited, that predisposes that anything is static ever.

• 1:42:42Speaker 01

  Exactly, which it's not. And if you expand out to a larger timeline, you realize, oh, you've been changing every single moment and you're not the same person you were last year, certainly not the same person you were at eight. But I can also talk. I can, I can communicate through time and space by connecting in with my inner child, who I know so well. And he actually speaks to me and gives me lots of wisdom and shares with me the things that I, you know, helped me be a better man, a better father for- You know, not my inner child, but for my future children.

• 1:43:20Speaker 01

  So I believe there is continuity in being able to actually connect into multiple timelines. Not just your past within yourself, but also if you close your eyes, like how you imagine you want to be and where you orient your life so that you can embody and be in the embodied expression of that future potential and then let go of it because you know, you know, you're part of a much more complex system.

• 1:43:48Rich Roll?

  Well, we could go down a crazy rabbit hole with this because ultimately, you know, time is a mental construct, right? So the idea of moving through time or speaking to your, your inner child or, you know, communicating with your future self on some level, these things are all existing simultaneously, are they not, right? And so when that inner child is, is, is percolating up, what is it saying to you? What is he saying to you?

• 1:44:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:20Rich Roll?

  Is he expressing his needs or telling you it's going to be okay? Or what does that exchange look like?

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think right now he's saying, you know, don't be a douchebag, you know, like make the sacrifices to be there for your kids so that they, you know, they have a little bit easier time than you did. So it's, it's, yeah, it's a lesson really of presence.

• 1:44:43Rich Roll?

  Be the, be the present dad that you didn't have.

• 1:44:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:48Rich Roll?

  Right? And so kids are, are going to be a thing for you.

• 1:44:51Speaker 01

  And, and, and yeah, a hundred percent. Be, be the, the role model that I wish I'd had.

• 1:44:58Rich Roll?

  When you look back on this arc, do you have regrets or wish that you had done things differently? Or, you know, I'm sure people say, what's the advice you would give yourself, you know? I get that question a lot. I never know how to answer it.

• 1:45:14Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:45:14Rich Roll?

  Because everything has unfolded perfectly.

• 1:45:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly.

• 1:45:16Rich Roll?

  All the pain that I've experienced and, you know, the difficult times that I've had to, you know, weather have all crafted the person that I get to be today. And I would never want to shortcut myself from that.

• 1:45:31Speaker 01

  Well, it's also the devil that you know, right? I'd much rather take the existence that I've already experienced and I've already gone through. And like, okay, I'll take this because it could be worse.

• 1:45:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. And are you completely done with acting? Or what's your relationship with the craft?

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  I just changed my relationship to what kind of roles I take. And, you know, I'm not acting for money. In other words, I'm not just taking jobs because they're going to pay me a good amount of money. It's more if the role resides with me.

• 1:46:04Rich Roll?

  Right, some crazy, awesome role falls into your lap with an unbelievable director.

• 1:46:09Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. David's Adventure, okay, I'll do it.

• 1:46:12Rich Roll?

  There's still a tether, like maybe a thread to Hollywood.

• 1:46:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I, and I'm also, as I mentioned, I'm getting back into the storytelling, like how I'm going to show up in that, in that capacity. And it's not all Hollywood and movies, but also I have a lot, a lot to say in documentary form and short form. And so podcasts or docu-series, I plan on doing a lot of that stuff as well.

• 1:46:44Rich Roll?

  Right, right. Do you have anything, any projects you're thinking about that you're willing to share about?

• 1:46:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I've been, this is a little bit premature, but I'll share it. I've been slowly building a channel, which I call Earthspeed. Life, a lifestyle in the cadence of nature. And that's essentially going to be my channel for sharing stories from the land. My trials, my, my challenges and my successes in building the community and learning how to farm, learning how to grow my own food. All of those things that I think should be open sourced and shared. Again, as I use my life as a laboratory or as an experiment for possibility, I want to be able to share that, open source it, so that not only I can get feedback,

• 1:47:34Speaker 01

  like, "Hey, don't do that, you dummy. It's so much easier if you do it this other way." But also, maybe other people might be inspired to try it themselves. And I think the more people start to experiment and explore growing food in their backyards, in their front yards, do away with the front lawn, make some food. I think we're gonna have to share wisdom in that.

• 1:47:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so you've been documenting that all along?

• 1:48:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, here and there.

• 1:48:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool. Are you connected to Zach Bush, Dr. Zach Bush, Farmer's Footprint?

• 1:48:09Speaker 01

  Not directly, but I listen to him often.

• 1:48:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, he's a good friend. I mean, that's the first thing I thought of. You should sync up with him.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  Please, yeah.

• 1:48:18Rich Roll?

  Because all the work that he's doing in that very space with regenerative farming and permaculture.

• 1:48:23Speaker 01

  Where is he?

• 1:48:24Rich Roll?

  Where is he? He's been living in Hawaii mostly, but he's got a place in Encinitas as well. And Farmer's Footprint is located in Encinitas. But I'm close with them. I can make that connection easily.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  I would love that. You know, I really think the future, at least in the way I see it, will be absolutely decentralized, but you'll have little pockets of sanity, you know, little islands of cohesion, all interfacing, connected, but autonomous. And that's what we're looking to contribute to, is that vision. Our land will be its own standalone system, but we'll have a lot of back and forth and exchange of ideas with other communities and other farms and other operations around the world.

• 1:49:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it's just like anything else. You have to start in one place, prove that it's possible, before you can tackle the larger problem. And then share the process of how that was built to then create scalable solutions. Because we're looking at a food system right now that's so broken, that's so deleterious environmentally, that creates all kinds of food injustice and a battery of problems that are making us sick and depleting the planet. And truly... The only way forward is to find new regenerative, scalable, sustainable solutions. So as consumers, yes, we can use our front lawns and do all of that.

• 1:49:58Rich Roll?

  But those are really just pilot projects for how to create an environmental model and an economic model for the modern day farmer that will incentivize them to make that switch and get out of their, you know, big ag paradigm to create food that is actually going to be able to feed the planet.

• 1:50:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I would just push back a little bit on the expectation of scalability. And I think it's this weird thing that we all believe that scalable solutions are the right solutions or a business that can scale is the best business that we can have. There's something that you lose when things scale. And as I was saying, once a system grows to the point where the tentacles are so long that you can't keep track, it starts to become inefficient and often the externalities and the destructiveness can sort of get away from you.

• 1:50:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:58Speaker 01

  So I don't know if we need scalable solutions. I think we need eight billion localized solutions within each individual that doesn't scale, but is like very unique and specific to where that person is or where that community is. So I think it's not just a consumer solution to grow food in your front yard. It's actually an environment wide solution with if everybody takes responsibility for their own little patch of land. We stop farming out, no pun intended, our farm industry, our agriculture industry to these big scaled businesses that can't really take care of the environment.

• 1:51:41Speaker 01

  Because once you have a certain number of animals on a feedlot, the system collapses because you need diversity within each of those systems. So it has to be small and it has to be localized and individualized, I believe.

• 1:51:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, that's a point well taken. I guess part of where that comes from for me is You know, somebody who's been, you know, been plant-based for 15 years, but I'm under no illusion that the entire world is going to get struck plant-based. Like, there's, you know, it's always going to be, you know, a smaller percentage of the population. And likewise, not everybody is going to start planting food in their front yard. You know, there's just a large percentage of the population that either live in urban places, or it's not accessible for them, or they're working three jobs. But perhaps, to your point, there can at least be these community hubs in every community, right?

• 1:52:39Rich Roll?

  And you localize the whole thing. And it's sort of community-owned and operated in a way that creates a brand-new paradigm that does reconnect the members of that community who don't have the wherewithal to, like, plant in their front yard or whatever, to participate in that.

• 1:52:54Speaker 01

  Or instead of the, you know, local forever 21, you have vertical farming in that, you know, in that building.

• 1:53:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, it's crazy. I was in New York City the other week and I did a... And I love New York. Like, I have so much fun going back there. I mean, I didn't grow up there, but I get such a boost of, like, energy when I'm there. And I did a podcast with Eric Adams, who's most likely going to be the next mayor. And he's got a huge food initiative. He had a crazy health story that's made him very interested and invested in shifting the city's relationship with nutrition and schools and hospitals, et cetera. And I was like, I said to him, like, "Every rooftop in this city should have a garden." And he's like, "I'm all about it." Like, you know, to the extent that a politician within that framework can motivate that kind of change,

• 1:53:44Rich Roll?

  I'm, you know, I'm not sanguine about. But just to have the conversation about the possibility of that, you know? Every urban environment should make use of vacant lots and rooftops and vertical gardening. Like, there is a crazy viable future if we can marshal the political will and the resources to make those things happen. And I think most people want that.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Do they?

• 1:54:13Rich Roll?

  I don't know. See, I thought you were the optimist.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Well, no, I am the optimist. I just think that people still believe in the, you know, old paradigm. They're still attached to this.

• 1:54:24Rich Roll?

  But you have to show them. You have to show them the way. This is where the cult leader thing comes in. You still need the personality, right? You got the white pants. You're halfway there.

• 1:54:35Speaker 01

  Fine. You talked me into it.

• 1:54:37Rich Roll?

  Take us across the goal line, Adrian. Cool, man. Well, I think that's a good place to land this plane for today.

• 1:54:47Speaker 01

  Awesome.

• 1:54:47Rich Roll?

  How do you feel?

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  Feel great, yeah. I'm glad that we got to do this.

• 1:54:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Me too, man. I think it's really inspiring what you're doing and, you know, impressive that you've, you know, made this life pivot and decided to put these values that you have to work and in the forefront of the advocacy. And I know you're in a gestation period, but like all artists, you have to live your life before you can create expression out of those experiences. And I have no doubt that at the appropriate time, you will bring expression to that. And I think that that will be impactful to many. So I wish you luck. I wish you well. And I'm at your service.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  Oh, thanks, my friend. I appreciate it.

• 1:55:31Rich Roll?

  Cool. So if people want to learn more about what you're up to, DuContra, Lonely Whale, all the stuff, where's the best place to direct them?

• 1:55:40Speaker 01

  So ducontra.ventures and we're actively seeking investment. So if you want to invest in what we're doing and take a look at the model, reach out to us, email us. So the website is ducontra.ventures. And then, of course, Lonely Whale is my ocean conservation organization, lonelywhale.org. We have a number of really great projects and campaigns, including Ocean Heroes Bootcamp, my favorite, where we host 300 youngsters from 30 different countries around the world to do ocean work. It's cool. Yeah, I'll just leave it at those two for now.

• 1:56:17Rich Roll?

  All right. And at Adrian.

• 1:56:19Speaker 01

  Oh, at Adrian. Yes, yes, on Insta.

• 1:56:23Rich Roll?

  Cool, man. Well, hopefully you'll come back and talk to me again, man. I really enjoyed this.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  Next time we'll record at the ranch.

• 1:56:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that would be good. Cool. All right. It's a date. And I'll expect you to be wearing full white.

• 1:56:39Speaker 01

  All right. I will. Cool. Feathers.

• 1:56:41Rich Roll?

  Peace. Bye.

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  Take care.

• 1:56:48Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting

• 1:57:33Rich Roll?

  the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder. Graphic and social media assets courtesy

• 1:58:15Rich Roll?

  of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.