Thrilling Tales Of Modern Men: Danny McBride On Ego, Grievance & The Stories Men Tell Themselves

Danny McBride is the writer, actor, and producer behind “Eastbound & Down,” “Vice Principals,” and “The Righteous Gemstones.” For 30 years, he's satirized the aggrieved modern male, the guy who grew up on Rambo and ended up working at Geico. His first collection of short stories, “Thrilling Tales of Modern Men,” puts it all on the page. We get into masculinity, disappointment, the manosphere, and a world that already feels like the extended McBride universe. Beneath the comedy, the only real antagonist in these stories is the man himself. Danny is a master of his craft, and a rare eye on the foibles of the modern American man. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Seed: Use code RICHROLL25 for 25% off your first month of DS-01®👉🏼https://www.seed.com/RichRoll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://www.rivian.com LMNT: Get a free 8-count Sample Pack with any purchase👉🏼https://www.drinkLMNT.com/RICHROLL BetterHelp: Get 10% OFF the first month👉🏼https://www.betterhelp.com/richroll Birch: Get 27% off ALL mattresses + 2 free eco-rest pillows👉🏼https://www. BirchLiving.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Rich Roll?

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• 1:20Rich Roll?

  You're illuminating the foibles of the modern American man, like, alright Danny, so what's the solution? This is your self-help guru moment, you know?

• 1:31Speaker 01

  Danny McBride. He has come up with some of the funniest characters on television ever. He brought the mullet back. Kenny Powers is a man. Kenny Powers is an athlete. Kenny Powers is a lover.

• 1:43Speaker 02

  Now he's tapping into the spirit for his new book. It's called Thrilling Tales of Modern Men. The short story collection explores modern masculinity through a cast of characters.

• 1:53Speaker 03

  There is this idea of like what it is to be a dude. Growing up in the 80s, if you're watching Rambo or Chuck Norris or all this stuff, the reality that comes crashing down and it's like, you're not gonna karate fight an army of men and win. Sometimes you just gotta take a desk job. There's something just about disappointment that I just find fertile for comedy.

• 2:15Rich Roll?

  Danny, thanks so much for doing this. You're the funniest fuck alive. I'm so grateful to be able to hold you hostage today, talk to you, man. So thank you for coming all the way out here.

• 2:23Speaker 03

  It's awesome to be here. Beautiful out here.

• 2:25Rich Roll?

  Congrats on the book.

• 2:28Rich Roll?

  I'm curious around how this experience has been different from you. I mean, it's very much of a piece with everything that you have done over the last 30 years, but it is a different kind of offering.

• 2:38Speaker 03

  Yeah. You know, like you said, I've been doing this for a really long time and I wanted to see if I could translate what I had been doing in TV and film into just a completely different format, you know? It's obviously getting harder and harder to make TV and make movies. So I felt like if I could somehow crack this space, it sort of offers unlimited potential creatively. If you can get out the middleman and it can just be you and the audience, then you can kind of tell stories about whatever you want to.

• 3:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, you're a master of the collaborative kind of art of film and television. You have your cohort of people that you've been working with since day one, but writing's a solitary affair. But there's the unfiltered Danny. I mean, did you rely upon some collaboration in this? Or is this just directly from your imagination onto the page?

• 3:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was directly from my imagination to the page. And that was kind of what I was looking forward to with it. I love the collaboration. I love, I think that's one of the things I love the most about making a TV show or a movie is you have this idea and then the next journey is sort of stockpiling a bunch of cool artists that have their own points of view and then all kind of working together to elevate it. And that's such a fun thing and it's so unique to film and TV. A lot of art forms are really independent. And so I've always enjoyed that. But with that comes, you finish writing something and it's sort of like just the beginning of a negotiation.

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Then it's like, who am I gonna get to be in this? Will they give me enough money to make this? Is it gonna rain on the day that I planned this beautiful sunset? And with writing in this format, once the story's done, it's finished.

• 4:28Rich Roll?

  No production budget limiters.

• 4:30Speaker 03

  There's no other hoop to jump through.

• 4:33Rich Roll?

  When you were writing it, were you thinking about how this would play cinematically? Or were you able to kind of put that aside? I would imagine on some level, you're thinking visually all the time.

• 4:43Speaker 03

  You know, I definitely think visually and I think the way I craft stories is, I'm definitely inspired by all the years of writing for the screen. But yeah, with these, I really wanted them to exist as stories, as written stories. So I wasn't really thinking past that of whether they would be adapted or whether it could translate to something. I think that some of these definitely could, but yeah, it wasn't part of the motivation. I was really just trying to land the plane in this format.

• 5:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's perfect timing because it sort of lands at a moment where the discourse, the kind of public current discourse that's happening right now is all about the crisis of masculinity and this epidemic of loneliness and alienation, et cetera. But for you, you've been writing these characters with these themes for like 30 years. Like this is nothing new. Are you noticing that there's something acute about this moment? Or do you feel like it's always been this way and finally we're paying attention to something that you have been kind of keen on for your entire career?

• 5:52Speaker 03

  It's probably a little bit of both. I mean, I definitely feel like, I feel like some of these things that I've been making fun of or poking at for all these years, I do think they're sort of like universal things, disappointment, having your ego chopped down. These are all things that I think people have always dealt with, men have always probably dealt with throughout time. And I don't know, there's something just about disappointment that I just find fertile for comedy. And so I would always stack these characters to just sort of be avatars to explore all that stuff. But I think with it too, it's, growing up in the 80s, it's like I lived at the video store, I lived at the Cineplex.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  Like I just consumed so many stories and so much media. You were definitely in that time period presented with like a certain type of alpha. And I think if you're just like some artistic kid living in Spotsylvania, Virginia, and you're kind of like, you're creating your images of what it's gonna be like when you get older and you're watching Rambo or Chuck Norris or all this stuff, there is this idea of like what it is to be a dude. And I think it's funny as we get older, it's obviously the reality that comes crashing down that it's like, you're not gonna necessarily be able to karate fight an army of men and win. Sometimes you just gotta take a desk job.

• 7:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You had said you're of the generation of men that grew up watching Rambo and ended up working at Geico.

• 7:20Speaker 03

  Pretty much it.

• 7:20Rich Roll?

  And the kind of aggrieved, the aggrieved, fragile ego of that guy who's staring in the mirror of his own disappointment and trying to contend with how to move forward with this kind of sense of injustice, like we've been ripped off on some level.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 7:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I've been lied, you've been lied to, right? You know what I mean? And how do you compensate for that? By like fronting in all these egotistic, unbridled id ways that always end up going terribly awry?

• 7:55Speaker 03

  Totally. It's like a lot of these characters, a lot of these stories, there is no antagonist. Like the person who's the biggest threat to them having a good existence is ultimately themselves.

• 8:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And that's the last person that they're aware of that's getting in their own way. It's everybody else.

• 8:12Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 8:14Rich Roll?

  It's also an interesting moment because we're all kind of living in the extended Danny McBride universe right now. Like you look around, like I was thinking, if Danny were to write like his version of The West Wing or Veep, of course there would be UFC happening on the front lawn. And of course, the reflecting pool would like turn green and the guy who made it turn green would look like a Dick Tracy villain.

• 8:44Rich Roll?

  And so when you look at that, you're like, how do you even like as a satirist? Like, where do you go? Like, because, you know, like fiction and reality are so closely aligned with your sensibility.

• 8:56Speaker 03

  You know, it's, uh, I think that what you have to just focus on ultimately is I think you have to focus on, you know, what's true for people, you know, regardless of what the time period is, you know, like what, you know, there's just these universal ideas of what, of how people act and how people respond to things that, I think if you stay focused on that, you can always kind of stay one step ahead of the insanity of what's happening right now, you know? And hopefully you're making a story that will, you know, resonate far beyond. I mean, even, you know, we sold Eastbound in, you know, it was 20 years ago this summer. And it's, it's kind of amazing to me that they'll, they'll still be young people that find it now. And that's, you know, for when you really look at comedy, that's a pretty long shelf life for something, you know?

• 9:39Speaker 03

  A lot of things usually are, you know, they come out and they might be popular for four or five years and then new stuff comes to replace it. But I really think that why it's stuck around is I think because we were just trying to, uh, we were trying to make it timeless. We were trying to not necessarily make it about that one moment in like American culture, but like the, the larger picture of, of how, you know, this type of guy.

• 10:02Rich Roll?

  Cause you're like, yeah, I know that guy. Everybody like knows that archetype. There's somebody in their life that, you know, resembles that person. And that, that, that transcends the moment in which it was created. It's also a side benefit of the streaming world that we're in right now. Like I, you know, you have kids, I have kids. And it's been fascinating to see them fall in love with things that, that, you know, happened like decades and decades ago. Whether it's music or television shows or, or films. And I just think of the encyclopedic, like sort of awareness that young people have now that we didn't have growing up. It was just, this is what's on the radio and this is what happens to be, you know, broadcasting on the three channels right now. You know what I mean? And you're either there to see it or not, and that's gone.

• 10:46Speaker 03

  I think it's, I mean, it's pretty fascinating. You can go, you can enjoy something as a young person now and go really deep and have access to every version of it, or, you know, what was inspiring what? And it's all right there for you. And like you were saying with us, it was like you did, there was, you know, not to be talking like an old timer, but you know, there was like 12 channels and whatever was on those channels, like that's what you were checking out. And now there's, you know, we went from that to channels like specialized in just exactly one thing, like whether it's history or cartoons or whatever. And now we're beyond that where you just have access to everything that's ever made and you can just really, you know, zoom in on what you want. And, you know, I think there's a benefit to that. Obviously it's fun to

• 11:28Speaker 03

  be able to curate what you like. Uh, but I also kind of find like, I, I've noticed it with like even music, you know, having all of my music on like, you know, on my iPhone and being able to just always listen to my music. It, it also closes you off from new things, you know, because you tend to kind of, you can go infinitely into your own kind of, uh, likes and wants. And sometimes it keeps out you finding new things because you're just sort of curating almost infinitely what you like. And, uh, and sometimes it's nice to be surprised by things outside of what you think you would want. You know, I even like, you know, we have like YouTube TV and I purposely like go through the guide and get rid of like all the channels and only keep like on the guide, like, you know,

• 12:12Speaker 03

  13 or 14, because I do kind of like the idea of just like, it's, it's just this, this is all that we're gonna like look at and, you know, put on that movie that you don't think you want to watch, put on that show that you think is boring and just see what happens.

• 12:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Um, my kids are the curators of finding new cool shit. Like my 19 year old daughter, like she's listening to stuff 50, 60 years ago for music, you know, musical taste and, you know, can you imagine being like that age and like watching something that was created 40 years ago?

• 12:45Speaker 03

  I think, I think about it all the time. I'm constantly playing that, that numbers game where I'm like, they're, my kids are listening to something from the eighties. That's 40 years ago. That would have been me in the eighties, listening to something from the forties.

• 12:56Rich Roll?

  Unimaginable. Yeah. Unimaginable. Um, but that gives me hope, you know, especially, you know, there's always people saying, ah, your cinema's dead or like, you know, the, the form is not, it, it's not like it used to be. And then backrooms happens and obsession happens. And you're like, oh, wow.

• 13:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 13:14Rich Roll?

  This is youth culture, you know, telling us what they are interested in. And then it goes wide and, you know, a whole new world is born.

• 13:22Speaker 03

  I, I totally agree. I think that that's like, honestly, like, you know, the movie industry, I think always goes through its, uh, its rhythms of what's working and what's not. And sometimes they'll stick around in genres that are dead for too long. And then they come into something else. But I definitely feel like what's been missing is, uh, is youth having a grasp on what the movies are that are being made. You know, it feels like people in my generation, a little bit older, maybe have like held on to the reins just a little bit too, too long that, you know, you think of some of these guys. And I feel like, I think Robert Evans, when he was running Paramount and Greenlit, Godfather was like 28 years old, you know, it's like the idea of somebody that young, uh, making those calls, you're like, yeah, that's what this town needs. It's what this industry needs.

• 14:04Speaker 03

  Because ultimately if this doesn't appeal to young people, then it dies away, you know, it needs to, uh, it needs to feel relevant to them. And it doesn't need to be just like constantly relaunching things that we, you know, gravitated towards from our youth and, you know, there can be time for that, but you've got to have this new stuff too. And you gotta have, um, you know, you gotta have young people seeing that there's a pathway in the industry, you know, that they can see the guys making obsession in backrooms and like, those guys are not much older than me and they're like crushing it. And you, you need that inspiration.

• 14:38Rich Roll?

  In your fertile mind, how do you know when an idea is worthy of like investing the amount of time uh, that it takes to like flesh it out and turn it into something like Eastbound it down?

• 14:50Speaker 03

  It's interesting. It, uh, you know, there isn't like one thing. It's like, I, my, I'm always thinking of ideas all the time. And, you know, I'll try to have a few different things open at once, but inevitably some, one of them will stick more than the others, you know, you will.

• 15:06Rich Roll?

  You just wake up.

• 15:07Speaker 03

  Yeah. You'll find yourself coming back to it more and more. Your brain will just like, oh, I keep my, I can't get my head off of that one idea. And, you know, with gemstones, it was that way. I moved to Charleston, South Carolina, and I was trying to figure out what show I wanted to do next, what story? And I had like three or four different ideas and, uh, that gemstone family, like that just kept, that was the one that my brain kept going back to. So I just followed that. And a lot of times writing is, you know, because it's by yourself, you, you have to have fun doing it. It has to be something that you want to like spend your time on. You don't want to make it homework. So I'll just gravitate towards things that feel like they're going to be fun.

• 15:44Rich Roll?

  It seems like you're having a good time. Uh, you know, it doesn't, I'm sure it's a lot of hard work. Uh, and people may not realize like you're the showrunner, you're the, you're right, you're doing all the writing. You're not just the guy who's appearing on screen. Uh, but you made this conscious decision in 2017 to like split LA, uh, move to Charleston as a better place to raise your kids. But you also brought all your people with you and you, you've got this community now, this creative community and your company. Uh, and it seems like, uh, that's allowed you to not only, um, be a better observer of life. Cause you know, LA is sort of a little bit of a bubble where you're removed from how normal people live.

• 16:26Rich Roll?

  Um, but also has allowed you the freedom outside of the panopticon of the studio system to like do your thing uh, without too much interference, right?

• 16:36Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's true. You know, we learned that honestly, when we were shooting Eastbound and we were shooting in Wilmington, North Carolina. And the idea that there was not a direct flight at that time from LA to North Carolina, we noticed that the executives never came to set. Oh, we just gotta choose cities that it's not easy to get to from LA and then we'll have more freedom.

• 16:55Rich Roll?

  Allowing you to push the boundaries. I'm sure you get notes still, but you know, it's a different thing when somebody's not showing up every day to like.

• 17:02Speaker 03

  It is. And you know, we, we've been really lucky with HBO. I've had a great relationship with them and have had an awesome time working with them. And, you know, we, um, even when we don't agree, it never, uh, yeah, it's never contentious and there's never a do this or, or you know, or it's done. Like they're, they're, they've always been supportive and, you know, I think that that trust has just been built between us over the years. And I think that allows us to take more chances and take more risks.

• 17:29Rich Roll?

  Let's go back to the beginning. Like where, where did this all begin for you? Like, when did you first realize like this was something you wanted to pursue?

• 17:37Speaker 03

  You know, I always, I always wanted to do this, even from, you know, as young as I can remember, I, you know, I have like notebooks in my house that are like stories I wrote when I was like in third, fourth, fifth grade. I mean, I always just wanted to tell stories and like, you know, I remember when, you know, our family got our first VCR and, you know, and all, all of that of just like having access to stories and watching movies. It was just something that I just, you know, I kind of instantly knew that that's where I wanted to spend all my energy and time. And so I was fortunate in that, that I just put everything I had into pursuing that. So, you know, I would make movies in my backyard.

• 18:15Speaker 03

  I wrote plays in high school that our school performed. Uh, and then I went to film school. So I was just constantly trying to figure out how to do this.

• 18:23Rich Roll?

  What was it? What was the home life like? Like your dad was a prison guard?

• 18:27Speaker 03

  He was a prison guard out in Lompoc, California. So we lived on the prison reservation out in Lompoc for a few years. And then he got transferred to the federal bureau of prisons in DC. And so then that brought us out there to, uh, to DC. And at that time, Fredericksburg is about an hour south of DC, but that was, you know, that was really rural. It was, it was out in the country. Now DC's sprawl is so far that like that's, that's now even like.

• 18:53Rich Roll?

  It's like a suburb.

• 18:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, suburb of DC, but then it was really out in the sticks. It was like, it was far away. But yeah, so then we, that brought us there when I was in, um, when I think we moved to Virginia when I was maybe like in first grade and. Yeah. And then grew up out in Virginia, lived in Northern Virginia for a little bit in Burke and then moved down to Fredericksburg and graduated high school there.

• 19:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But Spotsylvania, in Spotsylvania though, which is just a little bit further south of Fredericksburg, right?

• 19:19Speaker 03

  Yup.

• 19:19Rich Roll?

  Um, Civil War territory.

• 19:21Speaker 03

  Lots of Civil War action.

• 19:23Rich Roll?

  So I grew up in Maryland and every weekend it feels like my dad would say, get in the station wagon. And he would just take us to some Civil War battlefield, you know, and it was a, it was a history lesson, you know? There's this like this obsession with my parents' generation with the Civil War, with men of that age, you know? And Spotsylvania was a place that we went to often because uh, in Spotsylvania, there's a, there's a place called Spindle Farm. Do you know this place?

• 19:52Speaker 03

  Heard of it, yeah.

• 19:53Rich Roll?

  So Spindle is my mother's maiden name.

• 19:55Speaker 03

  Oh, wow.

• 19:56Rich Roll?

  So that is of apparently this is, this is our family, our family lineage.

• 20:01Speaker 03

  That's awesome.

• 20:01Rich Roll?

  And that was the site of, you know, quite a bloodbath, uh, like this very contentious, uh, moment in the Civil War. So I spent time in Spotsylvania, like I know it well.

• 20:10Speaker 03

  It is, uh, it was a really cool place to grow up. It made for very boring field trips in school because all your field trips were like, you know.

• 20:18Rich Roll?

  You get off the bus and it's just a field.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  Yeah. And you're like, I pass this every day going to the grocery store and now we're walking around it. But it was, uh, I, I, I honestly like loved it. I thought it was really cool to live somewhere. Where all of this stuff you're learning about in school happened in your backyard and that there's like a point of reference for it. And, uh, I thought it was like, you know, I remember in downtown Fredericksburg, there was like, uh, like a slave auction block, just like right in the middle of, of town. And I remember just being there and seeing that and then seeing the town that I'm familiar with and be like, oh, it's crazy to think. That this was going on right here where, you know, and then you, you know, the older you get, you're like, it wasn't even that long ago. Like that was, you know, that wasn't that, that wasn't as ancient as what you think when you're a kid.

• 21:01Speaker 03

  And I liked being around those battlefields and finding out those stories about, you know, I just, it got me into history. And I think that was also part of why I, Charleston was so appealing to me when we shot down there was I, I liked the idea that. Massive things have happened there and, and now it's a new place.

• 21:20Rich Roll?

  It is unusual though, for a kid in, in rural Virginia to decide that he wants to go to film school.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  Yeah, it is.

• 21:26Rich Roll?

  There weren't a lot of people in your community, like, you know, pulling their cameras out and making short films, I would imagine.

• 21:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, there, there really wasn't. And I would, uh, I would incorporate like all the kids in the neighborhood to like be a part of my films. And none of them had interest or, uh, you know, it wasn't like they were trying to do that. And, uh, and then I would just rope them into the stuff I was doing and, and employ them that way. And yeah, it was, uh, it was cool. I think that's what I liked about when I ended up at North County School of the Arts, where I went to film school. It was the first time that I had really been around other people that had any interest in this. And it was, uh, I think I made fast friends with so many of these guys that I still work with because it was sort of so, uh. I don't know. It was like, it was kind of groundbreaking for me of like, wow, there's other.

• 22:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  Other people that like have been the same guy I've been where I've been, you've been in a small town and you like all these crazy movies too. And you wanted to dedicate your life to trying to figure out how to be a part of that industry.

• 22:22Rich Roll?

  How long were you there before you connected with David Gordon Green though?

• 22:25Speaker 03

  First day I lived there.

• 22:26Rich Roll?

  First day.

• 22:27Speaker 03

  Yeah. On my, uh, we, I moved to the dorms and David lived, uh, David was my next door neighbor on one side. And Jody Hill was my next door neighbor on the other side.

• 22:36Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 22:36Speaker 03

  Yeah. And so, uh, yeah, I mean, a lot of the John Kachuri and Jeff Radley, who are two of the guys I've written on Eastbound and Vice Principals and Gemstones with. They live in Charleston now, like those guys all lived on our hall. I mean, it was a lot of these guys that to this day for our production designer, our music supervisor. They're all guys that like basically we all lived in the same hall in our freshman year of college.

• 22:57Rich Roll?

  All gone on to have huge careers.

• 22:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, everybody has their own sensibilities and yeah, it was, it was, uh, it was cool. I know, you know. I think whenever you decide to go to college for the arts, there is always this question of like, oh, is it needed? Like, is it better spent instead of the, uh, you know, the student loans? Is that better just to take that money and go make a movie? And, you know, I don't think there's any real answer for that. Obviously it's different for everyone, but for me, why that was important was, you know, there's so much. Time to get jobs and to work. You're going to, your whole life is going to be that, but to force yourself for four years. To just focus on movies and focus on watching movies and talking about movies and just sort of digesting them that way. I think it was so beneficial, you know?

• 23:41Rich Roll?

  And finding your people.

• 23:42Speaker 03

  Finding your people. And I really think if I would have just, uh, taken that money and jumped to Los Angeles, I think there would have been more attention to survival. As opposed to gearing up and studying.

• 23:54Rich Roll?

  It's kind of, uh, akin to, uh, you know, Seattle and Grunge. Like there was a, this very specific place that isn't, you know, like the. In the first three or four that come to mind, like it's like, there's NYU and there's USC and you see, it's like, okay, UNC Winston-Salem.

• 24:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 24:11Rich Roll?

  Got a film school there. Like who knew it was gonna, you know, like, you know, germinate like such talent at a very specific time. It, it also reminds me of like Mike Birbiglia and Nick Kroll and like John Mulaney all being at Georgetown. And right around the same time, like these, like this convergence of time and space that like gives birth to like, you know, almost like a whole new. Sensibility in the arts.

• 24:36Speaker 03

  I mean, I, I feel grateful that, that I was there at that time and a part of that, cause it did feel that way. I mean, even when I was applying for schools, I think we were the third class to graduate from that film school. So that film school was brand new. And, you know, coming from, you know, Spotsylvania, Virginia, it wasn't like, you know, we were pretty middle class. There was the idea of NYU or USC was just, that wasn't going to be like, that wasn't going to be feasible for, for me. That wasn't in the cards. And if you didn't want to go to those places at that time, it's not like every college offered a course in filmmaking. I mean, they didn't at all. I remember I was like applying to all these schools and, you know, they might have like a little bit of like TV production or. I remember I called VCU, uh, which was in Richmond.

• 25:17Speaker 03

  And I was like unclear from, you know, the information I was getting where they had a film program and I got ahold of somebody in the media department. And I was like, do you have a film school? And he's like, you know, what, what are you, what are you trying to do? I'm like, well, I was like, I want to learn how to like make movies. He's like, we might be able to get a camera or something. Like that, that was like the level that it wasn't, it was not a, um. It wasn't a major that was like, you know, that present. And so when I found out about North County School of the Arts. It was a state school. Uh, it was in the realm of what I'd be able to afford with student loans and everything. And then the thing that was cool about it is that it's a conservatory. So even if you'd been to college before, you have to be in that program for four years. So it puts you in there with a wide variety of people. There were people who had been to college. There were, there was a housewife. There was, it was all, it was a random assortment of people.

• 26:02Speaker 03

  But you were all on the same four-year journey. And what was cool about it was. It wasn't like the rich kids made the best movies. Like they were, everybody was given the same exact budget, uh, from the school. And you had to make your films, uh, in that, with that budget and you had to figure it out. And, uh, and so it was cool because the class aspect of it was, was taken out of the, uh, out of the creation. Everybody was given the same resources.

• 26:30Rich Roll?

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• 27:10Rich Roll?

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• 27:48Rich Roll?

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• 28:29Rich Roll?

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• 29:14Rich Roll?

  Here on the pod, optimizing our lives is something that comes up a lot. How to hone our habits, our routines, our health. But what's wild is, my car is doing that too. Because Rivian is essentially the most powerful computer you'll probably ever own, constantly learning, adapting, improving. And the crazy part is, you barely notice it. The system is taking in information from cameras and sensors, making real-time decisions to help keep everything smooth and safe. The navigation doesn't just give directions, it's thinking ahead, factoring in elevation, battery usage, and when and where to charge. And then there's the regular updates. You plug it in at night and wake up to a vehicle that's literally

• 29:55Rich Roll?

  more capable than it was the day before. It's advanced, but it doesn't feel complicated. It just works, and it lets you focus on what actually matters: the drive. Visit any Rivian space or rivian.com to learn more.

• 30:14Rich Roll?

  When did you first know that this is gonna work out?

• 30:20Speaker 03

  You know, I don't, it took a while to realize, even when it started to work out, there's still just the idea of like, there's no way that this will continue to work out, you know? So I think there's been a level of always sort of being apprehensive of, oh, it's all working. I think that, you know, once Foot Fist Way got made and everything, we started getting all these opportunities. It was, it was really like a whirlwind.

• 30:43Rich Roll?

  But even that didn't go exactly to plan, right? Wasn't, wasn't the original idea, you're gonna go to Sundance and like, light up, light the world on fire?

• 30:51Speaker 03

  Yeah, and then we win, it didn't sell there. Like, you know, we made that movie for 75 grand, we shot it in, you know, less than three weeks. And Jodie Hill and myself had been out in LA for a while at that point, all just trying to make a living. And I think both of us were at the point where we're both realists, and we're like, we've been out here for a while, but I'm not, I don't wanna, you know, I don't wanna, we're in our mid twenties, I don't wanna look, I don't wanna be here in my forties, like, pretending like I'm trying to make movies. Like, I wanna, you know, we gotta, there's still time to pivot, we're young. So we, you know...

• 31:23Rich Roll?

  Did you have a Plan B? Or not, you don't seem like a Plan B guy.

• 31:28Speaker 03

  You know, I didn't really have a Plan B. I was, I felt like if we, if we really stuck with it, that we would be able to eventually find that success. And so, I think for a while, we got out here, and I think you're kind of like, waiting for someone to find you. And I think Jodie and I had been out here long enough that we were like, I think it's just, I think it's time to show them what we can do. And then hopefully, you know, opportunities will come from that.

• 31:51Rich Roll?

  And so Will Ferrell and Adam McKay, like, the movie circulated, some interesting people saw it, those guys jumped on it and decided to distribute it.

• 32:00Speaker 03

  They decided to distribute it. And then that, that really launched everything. I mean, I was, you know, doing these interviews for this book and just thinking about being walked through the history of it. It's really sort of insane, because when that, you know, I went from not having a job to that movie coming out in Sundance in 2006. And in the next year, basically in one year, I booked Hot Rod, then Drillbit Taylor, Heartbreak Kid, Pineapple Express, the pilot for Eastbound, and then Tropic Thunder. And so, it was going from never having any experience in this industry at all, to like, that's what the next year looked like.

• 32:36Rich Roll?

  It happened like, in such a compressed period of time. Because I think, when you did Tropic Thunder, I mean, you were only, you were like, a year into this.

• 32:43Speaker 03

  I was a year into it. I'd met Ben on the Heartbreak Kid, and he, he showed me the script and wanted to know if I wanted to play. And, I mean, even just meeting Ben Stiller was awesome. I mean, I always loved Ben Stiller, and I really loved him as a director, too. I thought that, you know, I had, you know, I loved Cable Guy when it came out. I remember thinking like, how dark and awesome it was. And so, the idea that he was making a movie like that, and I remember reading it, and just like, this is awesome. I love the scope of it, it's so funny, and he's gonna direct it. And, yeah, it was just a real pinch me moment to be involved with that. I mean, I, I remember going to the table read for that, and you're just like, I mean, every, it was, that was insane.

• 33:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it was just a murderer's row of talent, man.

• 33:22Speaker 03

  What am I doing here? I was trembling every time my guy had to speak, like, oh, Jesus.

• 33:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's an all-timer. And that really was this golden age in, you know, feature comedies. Like, it's, they're, they're so rare and few and far between these days. Like, the culture has shifted. It seems like all the comedic sensibility is now in television, and obviously, that's your, you know, that's your, that's your sweet spot. Why do you think that is? Why aren't we, why don't we see, like, what happened to The Wedding Crashers and Something About Marys and all of that, that we used to see pretty consistently coming out?

• 33:56Speaker 03

  You know, I, I, you know, I'm not, you know, I think there's probably a bunch of reasons. I do think that TV has allowed, you know, comedy really works well when it's niche, you know? Like, when people get really specific about their sensibilities. And there is always something about you and your friends finding that, like, weird comedy that speaks to you guys, you know? And it becomes your shared language. And I think TV has allowed that. It's allowed you to have all these really unique voices, from the Nathan Fielders, the Tim Robinson, to Eric Andre. And, you know, this stuff is, is really specific, and it's really funny. And if that stuff had to be boiled down to like, a four quadrant, you know, movie in the theaters that like, worked for everyone,

• 34:38Speaker 03

  like, who knows if those voices would, would be as funny by the time it did that, you know? So, I definitely think that that has given an opportunity for comedians to get really specific and find their audience and have success in it. But I also kind of think it just kind of happened, that like, that group of all the guys who had the power, they all just got rich and all stopped making comedies at the same time, you know? And so then it was like, I think it was like, left where there was, suddenly, like, everybody was wanting to get into serious movies, but ultimately, and, you know, it's not like anybody could make Tropic Thunder. You know, Ben Stiller could make Tropic Thunder because he had put in the work, and he was respected in the industry, and he had a record of success. And that's, that was a moment in time, like, you know, I think people are like, well, they wouldn't make that now. But I don't think they were looking to make that then. I think

• 35:23Speaker 03

  it was because Ben wanted to make that then.

• 35:25Rich Roll?

  It's insane that movie got made at all.

• 35:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, it really is. And it's, but again, it's like, you needed, it wouldn't have if it wasn't him. If it wasn't him with his track record, pushing something so provocative and so cool and competent at the end of the day.

• 35:38Rich Roll?

  It also feels like, when you're making a feature film, there's so much money involved, and that means that studio executives are gonna start asking questions about likability of the protagonist and stuff like that. And when, and when, kind of simultaneously, shows like The Sopranos are really, you know, gaining traction in the, in the cable television space, you're seeing an opportunity to explore more anti-hero type figures. And, you know, I don't, I don't know if you would consider your protagonists anti-heroes, but, you know, you're certainly not thinking about how likable they are when you're making them. I mean, there's a humanity to them, and you have, obviously have an affection for these people, and you're,

• 36:19Rich Roll?

  you're not judging them. But, you know, it's, it's, you're, you're, you're, you're really pushing people to like, get on board with these guys.

• 36:28Speaker 03

  That, 100%. And I think it would, that, that, that way of telling stories with those kind of guys, I think was an answer to that very note, that everything was, you know, we were being told that, you know, how likable characters needed to be. And Jodie and David and myself, you know, going to film school, we really responded to like, those seventies movies where you would have these complicated characters. You know, Jack Nicholson in Five Easy Pieces, or Rip Torn in Payday, or even De Niro in Taxi Driver. You know, these were not likable guys, and those movies were awesome. And they were having an impact on us. And they were telling stories that, that felt distinct, and they felt unique. And it didn't feel like something you'd seen before. So I think when we started

• 37:12Speaker 03

  kind of getting into it, you were, especially at that time, too, I feel like in the nineties and the early 2000s, a lot of the comedy was just so like, he doesn't want to grow up, or he's unlucky in love, and, you know, which, you know, can be fruitful for comedy, but it also just felt like it had been well-traveled, that it was like, you had to find a comedic engine that wasn't just a guy looking for a girl, you know, that there needed to be more. And so I think, when we started turning that lens on to, oh, it's somebody who's at a crisis in their life, and it isn't just centered around like, whether they'll find love or lose their virginity, it's sort of like, their entire worldview is shattering, or they're not who they think they are. It just started to feel like it was more dangerous area to tell a story, or something that you could do a little more unique.

• 37:56Rich Roll?

  It feels like there's a lot of white space for the backroom's Kane Parsons of comedy to suddenly appear right now, and like, rewrite that whole narrative and come out with something like we never thought of before.

• 38:09Speaker 03

  I, I think it will, it's only a matter of time. Inevitably, I think that is exactly what will happen.

• 38:14Rich Roll?

  Because right now, it's sort of horror, sci-fi. But horror, horror and comedy are, I think are more aligned. I mean, you've, obviously, you've written in horror, and you've made these horror movies. But they're, they're, they're like bedfellows, I think.

• 38:29Rich Roll?

  More than people realize.

• 38:30Speaker 03

  I think they definitely are. And I don't think it's like a coincidence that you have, you know, guys like Jordan Peele and Zach Craig who are, you know, their start was in comedy and then now they're successful horror guys. I think ultimately like my opinion on it is that you're, you're creating a ride for people and whether the outcome is you're making them jump or you're making them laugh, you're thinking about your pace, you're thinking about how to sleepwalk them into thinking one thing's gonna happen and then hitting them with something else. And I think that if, when you're looking at stories through that mindset of like, architecture and structure, uh, you know, it's, I don't know, it's a fun way to tell a story.

• 39:08Rich Roll?

  How does the process work for you? Does it begin with, you know, you see a guy and, or you overhear a conversation at Costco or something like that and you make a little note? Or is a narrative appearing in your mind or is it a character? And then how do you take that and then flesh that out into something that's gonna work on, on the screen?

• 39:27Speaker 03

  You know, whenever I have an idea for something, I kind of just will open up a document on my computer and I'll just like free write anything like, all right, I'll just, you know, and it won't even have to be fully formed. It can be a, a scene that I run out of steam on and just draw a line and just jump to something else. And I'll just peck at a concept like that for a little bit. And then usually if you get like a scene or two, that's like, oh, I like what this is, I like what this is doing. And then you kind of, I'll start building things out from there and figuring out what works. And kind of the, you know, I, so I feel like that's in my past, it's been finding things that way. But then once I'm committed to a story, everything I'm taking in ends up just being me looking into the world of how the stuff I'm seeing can inform what I'm trying to write, you know? So if it's on gemstones and we're working on that,

• 40:11Speaker 03

  like suddenly everything I'm seeing on my day to day is all sort of processing like, how can this, uh, how can this factor into what I'm doing? And I don't know, that's kind of like, creates a weird alchemy because you start kind of looking at life and your situations you're in of like, I'm working on this story and then I happen to be in this grocery store the same time this random person is and the, the pants they're wearing is making me laugh. So now the pants that my character in the show are, are gonna be that. And like, that moment would have never happened unless I wasn't paying attention in my life and seeing how things around me can influence what I'm working on.

• 40:45Rich Roll?

  For gemstones, did you like drop in on mega church, you know, services? Or did you interview some of these?

• 40:51Speaker 03

  I did. I interviewed a few, I interviewed a few different mega church pastors. Uh, and this is before I had really written anything. You know, when I moved to Charleston, uh, you know, there was a big adjustment to go from Los Angeles to Charleston. You know, growing up in the South, I, I knew what I was getting into, but it was just a lot different. I mean, even just driving around, I would just oftentimes just get in my car, just trying to figure out the town. And I would just go on these long drives, just, you know, just cruising around, getting lost, trying to figure out all the roadways and where everything was and what was around. And I really couldn't shake the idea of like, how many churches I was seeing. I'm like, oh, this is kind of crazy. I hadn't really thought about that. But in LA, I just wasn't, you know, wasn't as prevalent as it is here. Like they were everywhere. And, um, even on the radio station, it was like every other station was a religious station. And, uh,

• 41:36Speaker 03

  and it just got me thinking about, you know, church and about my upbringing and how I went. And, um, and it made me wonder like, what, how was it different than when I went? And so I started just looking into these mega churches and seeing how these things functioned and what the services were like. And yeah, and then from there I was like, I would kind of want to talk to people who are a part of this world and, and learn about the process and how these things are structured and how they're built and how they do it.

• 42:00Rich Roll?

  Also, it's, it's just another one of the pillars of American society. It's sports, education, and now like religion. Yeah. What's left? We have politics. There is, your, your veep is waiting for you right now. Although it's, you know, we're already, we're just watching episodes of it every day already. Um, that's cool, man. It's such a keen insight into, you know, what's ludicrous about how we live our lives. And I would imagine like on this, this press junket that you're on right now, it's like, okay, you're, you're illuminating the foibles of the modern American man. Like are people like, all right, Danny, so what's the solution? This is your, this is your, uh, self-help guru moment, you know?

• 42:43Speaker 03

  You know what? I have no answers. I, I am, uh, I feel like, you know, we've been pointing out this, we've been pointing out this type of dude for a very long time, you know, that this is that, that this, you know, I think we, uh, yeah, we just saw where culture was going and where, um, our ideas of what it takes to be a solid dude. Like, you know, I don't know, like how, what was expected and, and what the outcome is. And, you know, I don't have what the answers are for it. I mean, I, uh, you know, in these stories, the answer usually always kind of like lands on the person themselves, you know, coming to terms with who they are, what they want and being okay with the idea that like, life isn't always gonna be about what you think you need.

• 43:26Rich Roll?

  With that, how do you make sense of like the quote unquote manosphere and like these characters like Andrew Tate and like clavicular and like looks maxing? You know, as a parent also, like the impact that, you know, these people, the, the sort of influence these people wield on, on young people?

• 43:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know, luckily like my kids haven't gravitated towards any of that stuff. And, uh, I don't really even know much about any of it, other than what I like, you know, hear, you know,

• 43:55Rich Roll?

  Cause these are, these, these, these people are speaking directly to your characters.

• 43:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, totally. Yep. I, uh, yeah. I mean, you know, in my house, I really have, I try to like limit my kids having access to all this stuff, you know, and being, uh, and I just try to be present in their lives. So if they're listening to anybody's take on the world, hopefully it's mine and my wife, my wife's and not a stranger online. But inevitably it's

• 44:19Rich Roll?

  But even outside your house, just on culture, you know, writ large?

• 44:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. You know, I think maybe that's part of the benefit of being in Charleston is like, we live on a creek and the kids in our neighborhood are into fishing and they're into, you know, getting out in the water. And, uh, I don't know, it doesn't, uh, I don't see it as, uh, it's not as pervasive there, I guess.

• 44:39Rich Roll?

  Uh, it is pervasive though. I think it's, I think it's a, it's, it's just a reaction to the, you know, kind of the, the existential crisis that these people have. Like there's an emptiness in their lives and then so and so comes along and says, I'm gonna solve this problem for you. You have to sign up for like my academy or whatever it is. And, you know, here's the 12 steps. And then you can be, you can be, you know, in your full expressed masculinity. And it's always, and it's, it's, it's always rooted in grievance also, you know, it's somebody else's fault. It's not your fault and you have to claim your power. And it's preying on the vulnerability of, of

• 45:19Speaker 03

  It kind of feels like that's what everything does, right? I mean, isn't that, that's like, that could be, that's kind of what religion has done for years and years for, you know, generations of people is that everyone is always like looking for the answers outside of themselves. And, you know, I think when you have the internet, obviously there's like, there's more people that you have, you know, the ability to reach that you can give the answers to. And, you know, I think that that's just, you know, that is just what we're up against, right? I mean, that people are always looking to find out the answers. And it's a matter if they align with the right person that's gonna give them the real answers or if they're gonna, you know, get up wrapped up in something that ends up turning them upside down.

• 46:00Rich Roll?

  You really get to know your mattress in the summertime. Don't laugh. It's true. The nights get warm and if you're sleeping on a slab of synthetic foam, you're gonna feel it. And now I've been on a Birch mattress for about, I think about five years at this point. And I think the thing I noticed the most this time of year is that I just sleep cooler. It breathes. And that comes straight from what it's built out of. Organic cotton, natural latex, real materials, responsibly sourced, firm, yes, but also comfortable and more importantly, built to last. No polyurethane foams, no questionable off gassing, which matters when you think about how much of your life you actually spend on the darn

• 46:43Rich Roll?

  thing. And they make it easy to find out for yourself. It ships free, rolled up in a box, simple to set up. You get 120 nights to see how your body responds, all risk free. And they back every single mattress with a limited lifetime warranty. Because they own their own manufacturing and stand behind the work, they can do that. Sleep is the foundation, everything else is built on. And it's really worth getting it right. I want all my listeners to enjoy a deep, restful night's sleep with a new mattress from Birch. Go to birchliving.com/ritroll for 20% off, site wide, 25% off lux mattresses, and 30% off elite mattresses.

• 47:25Rich Roll?

  How does the evangelical community perceive you when you run into people like?

• 47:30Speaker 03

  Yeah, you know what's funny is I think that because we, I was really adamant when we made that show that I didn't want the joke to ever be religion. I didn't want the joke to be about people's beliefs, you know, I really wanted the joke to be about this family and about their level of hypocrisy, but I didn't want to paint it like this is what everybody who's religious behaves like or acts like. And I really didn't want it, no jokes about like, isn't this crazy? These people believe this. Like I didn't, I never wanted that to be part of what that story was. And I think because of that, we were able to get religious people watching that show too. Cause I don't think they felt like they were the butt of the joke, you know? I think if you're really religious, you see gemstone people in your, in your world. And I don't think that

• 48:14Speaker 03

  you necessarily like it, you know? I think that there is, you know, false prophets have been around for a long time and it's something that people can identify. And so I feel like that actually worked in our behavior, in our, you know, in our benefit. I had spoke to this one megachurch pastor early, early before we, before there was even a concept out in the press about what the show was. And it, and this family was very kind to me and they showed me, you know, kind of how, you know, just very basically how this operation worked and how, what their thought process was behind church planning. And it was really enlightening. It was a cool conversation to have with them of how they approached building churches and where

• 48:55Speaker 03

  they decided to put them. And I made the show. I didn't see that pastor again for years and years. Then I ran into him one time and I was like, oh God, this is after the show was done. And I was thinking like, oh God, what's this conversation going to be like? And he came up and whispered, whispered to me, he said, you know, I can't tell people that I've seen it, but you nailed it.

• 49:15Rich Roll?

  You're like the secret guilty pleasure of the hardcore evangelical, you know? That's hilarious, man. The book is 10 stories. It's sort of an anthology, you know, the misadventures of the modern male. Why, why do it that way? Why not write a novel? Did you just have too many threads in spinning around in your mind? Or?

• 49:38Speaker 03

  You know, I think it was a little bit of just creatively as an answer to what I'm, was trying to kind of like change up is that, you know, gemstones I wrote on for seven years. And so I loved writing on that show. I love writing those characters, but it's seven years of every time you sit down to create, you're, you're doing it through the lens of these characters in this world. And I think there was just a lot, I had a lot of ideas. And so for me, it was kind of, I liked the idea that I could think of something, you know, a lot, a lot of different ideas, a lot of different characters. And with each story, I wasn't having to like, you know, TV writing is so much that every episode is a part of the story. And then they're all connecting to tell a larger story. And, and then each season is telling you even larger story. Yeah. This was kind of nice to be able to like, launch into a story and take

• 50:24Speaker 03

  it to its completion. And then that's what it is, you know? And then you can jump to the next one and, and start from a completely different place. And so there was something that was fun about that of not committing to just one story, but being able to really explore a lot of different ideas and different types of people.

• 50:39Rich Roll?

  They all occupy the same world though. I feel like all of your characters live in this, they could all be, you know, they could be interacting with each other, you know? There is a universe of, you know, that could be expanded upon in there, you know? And the stories are great, man, you know, like it opens with the, you know, the frustrated divorced guy who decides he wants to be a magician and he's going to put himself in a cube in the mall hanging from, you know, on a crane. And it's just like insane, you know? The former sitcom actor, it's just, you know, and, and they all have these weird turns and then everything goes insane, you know? It's really well done, man. It's super enjoyable. I mean, and, and there is something durable about writing a book, you know, that's

• 51:24Rich Roll?

  different from, I mean, it's cool that younger people are, you know, kind of cottoning on to Eastbound and Down, et cetera. And there's a extended lifespan for some of the work that you've done, but a book is a whole different deal altogether.

• 51:39Speaker 03

  It's, it's really been interesting because, you know, I was talking to my wife about it. It's like, it's not like I haven't done things that people have seen before, but this does feel different. Even just my friends who sort of will roll their eyes at whatever new thing I have out like, yeah, sure. Another TV show. Great work, Danny. This one is sort of like, there is like, you wrote a book, man. Like it's an accomplishment. Yeah. I don't know.

• 52:01Rich Roll?

  David Gordon Green said that your, your media diet is basically being a voracious reader of great books and then watching the trashiest reality television. So it's just like high, low approach. But, you know, my, people might be surprised that you are such a, an avid reader and like, this is what you spend like most of your free time doing.

• 52:24Speaker 03

  I just like, you know, I've just been enamored with stories and storytelling. I always have. And so I just read because I love watching how people construct stories or how people tell stories to take the ride that someone has constructed and, and take that journey. I love it. Yeah. And with TV, my TV viewing is really crazy because I just, I have a really hard time just kind of like investing in TV shows. And usually I'm always behind on all the stuff that everyone says is amazing.

• 52:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Cause you're fucking busy. You're making it.

• 52:52Speaker 03

  It is. And then when I sit down at night too, I just don't want to, I don't want to be trapped where I have to watch something like, so that reality TV is, I can half pay attention. And I, and all of it, honestly though, is like great character work. It's like, you're just seeing all these train wrecks. You're seeing all these ways people position themselves in group dynamics. And I just find it really entertaining.

• 53:16Rich Roll?

  Do you feel like any of the stories in the book could be fleshed out into, into film or television projects? Or is that you're just, this is what it is?

• 53:24Speaker 03

  You know, I was approaching it where this is what it is, but definitely now that I'm past that point now, there is, there are a few stories in here that I'm like, oh, I'd like to do more. And, you know, one thing that was a lot of fun with this is we did the audio book for this. And I'd never done anything like that before. I'd never read on an audio book. And that process was so much fun. And I was able to get a bunch of, a bunch of really talented people to come in and read these stories.

• 53:48Rich Roll?

  You had people voicing the different characters. Oh, that's cool.

• 53:50Speaker 03

  Yes. Like Walton Goggins reads and Goodman, some of our, Adam Devine and Edie. But then I got Sam Rockwell and Billy Crudup and Sturgill Simpson and Eric Andre and Shane Gillis. And everybody, you know, reads these different stories. And I even got my composer, Joey Stevens, who does all the music for our shows. He, he created a like, you know, a score for each of the stories that kind of like takes you in and out. And I think it's a really fun way to experience this book. It really is. And just hearing actors bring these characters to life, it definitely inspired me into thinking like, yeah, it might not be bad to see some of these things pushed further.

• 54:26Rich Roll?

  You're also an entrepreneur. I mean, you've started this company and it allows you to do what you want to do with, like working with the system, but sort of outside of it. It's kind of like a dream situation, but you're running a business also at the same time. You've got all these people that you're, I guess semi responsible for.

• 54:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 54:43Rich Roll?

  Their salaries. I mean, there's so many projects that you guys have done, but it's, it's a whole enterprise on top of this whole thing.

• 54:50Speaker 03

  It really is. And especially moving to Charleston, you know, part of the idea of that was, you know, we had always shot Eastbound in the South. We shot Vice Principals in the South. We provided a lot of jobs year after year for a lot of people in that region. So being able to bring something like gemstones there and give the, the really talented people in that part of the country, like steady work in their backyard where they weren't having to travel to another state to find jobs. It was really awesome. And then like, you know, when gemstones wrapped up and it was time like to write this book, I really felt the weight of that of like, you know, there's a lot of people that are like looking for gigs now. Like we need to, we need to come up with.

• 55:26Rich Roll?

  And they're not, they're not working when you're writing a book.

• 55:28Speaker 03

  Yeah, exactly. And I felt that for sure this last year. I definitely felt that I wanted to, I didn't want, I don't want people to start looking for other jobs, you know? There was a lot of really talented people that we've worked with for years. And, you know, so much of the production is going overseas or into other countries. And yeah, I just think it's important to keep things here and to give people in this country a chance to work on these projects. And I loved that we could make things in South Carolina. You have people who. Probably feel like they're so far outside of the entertainment industry showing up to be extras and it's their first experience ever.

• 56:05Rich Roll?

  Super fun for them.

• 56:05Speaker 03

  Being around something and you know, who knows what that inspires in them and I like trying to create those situations for people.

• 56:12Rich Roll?

  How do you think about the, the future of media? I mean, here in Los Angeles, it's just a constant conversation about like AI and how, you know, production has fled Los Angeles and the economy is cratering and all these people that, you know, were basically like middle class, um, employed people within the studio system and their various jobs, like that's disappearing and you know, what's going to become of this industry?

• 56:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:38Rich Roll?

  You're in a whole, like your own little bubble out there doing your thing and it seems like it's all going fantastic, but.

• 56:44Speaker 03

  We, we feel it even out there. I mean, it's, you know, it's, people aren't buying as much stuff. There's not as much action out there. I mean, we, we definitely feel it too. And, uh, yeah, I mean, I, you know what? I have no clue. I mean, I definitely think it's a scary time in the industry, but I really would think at the end of the day, people aren't going to get tired of seeing stories and hearing stories and, uh, you know, the business is just going to have to sort itself out, but it's really amazing to see something like Obsession that's made for 750 grand and the reach that can have, you know, and hopefully that, um, inspires more people to approach filmmaking that way.

• 57:19Rich Roll?

  It's made young people psyched about going to movie theaters.

• 57:23Speaker 03

  A hundred percent.

• 57:23Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 57:24Speaker 03

  I, I think about when I went off to film school in 95, you know, it was like that, that like year was sort of like Pulp Fiction had come out.

• 57:32Rich Roll?

  It was all happening.

• 57:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. Clerks had just been out. Desperado was out, uh, Brothers McMullen, like Billy Bob Thornton was making Sling Blade. There was just all of these movies in that short period of time that were coming out of left field and that definitely inspired my friends and all of us. And so it doesn't take much, I think, to light the fire for a new talent. You know, I think you just, you have to see those examples of those kinds of stories breaking through and then it inspires a whole new batch of people to try their hand at it.

• 58:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The, the old guard is always going to, you know, lament like the way that it used to be, but you know, I think I'm like 10 years older than you, but I remember distinctly when Sex, Lies and Videotape came out and Reservoir Dogs. And it was like, there was so much excitement. It was like, this is new. This is different. These guys are rock stars. And then everybody wanted to be an independent director.

• 58:22Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 58:22Rich Roll?

  And it made people believe that they could so that Kevin Smith could cobble together five cents and like make Clerks.

• 58:28Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 58:29Rich Roll?

  And people like you who are even younger could start to, you know, marinate in that dream.

• 58:34Speaker 03

  Oh, we like, you know, we were, we're sitting there in film school, watching those movies, watching, uh, Wes Anderson and Owen Wilson and Luke Wilson made Bottle Rocket, you know, and to us, we were living and breathing that stuff. I mean, it was, it, for us, it was like, this is exactly what we want to do. And here's some young guys doing it. And, um, yeah, it's not to be underestimated, the value of even one thing finding success, what that can generate for other people.

• 58:58Rich Roll?

  And that was a period of time where it's still, even at the lowest budgets, like you needed film and you needed, it's like, you don't need any of that now and you don't even necessarily need distribution because we all have YouTube and, you know, we've seen what Kane has done by building his audience over time with the work that ultimately found its way and kind of matured in the back rooms. But, you know, it's a whole different time right now. And, uh, I think there's so, so much to celebrate and be excited about.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  That's what I think too. I think that it's never been easier to find an audience and now we just need those artists that take advantage of, of that.

• 59:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So what is next for you then? Like, how do you think about the next project? I mean, you're coming off like, I mean, I'm sure Gemstones was exhausting.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  It was exhausting. It was so much fun. Uh, but yeah, well, it was definitely exhausting. And so I definitely needed to, uh, I needed to decompress after that. And that's why this book was honestly perfect is because, you know, my hobby is writing. And so, once I finished, uh, Gemstones, it was like, I, I'd need to take a break from that level of work, but I still want to write. I still want to create things. And so this was like a perfect thing to drop into and dedicate my time to. And, you know, it's been fun to, now this is out there in the world and people can enjoy it. But, um, yeah, you know, I've got a few things over at HBO that I'm developing now. And, uh, the thing I'm, the most stoked about is that, um, John Kachuri and Jeff Rowley, two of the other of my collaborators

• 1:00:21Speaker 03

  on Gemstones, we, uh, we sold our pitch to, uh, Paramount to relaunch G.I. Joe. And so we got them a script that we're really fired up about and we're trying to shoot that next year.

• 1:00:31Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:00:32Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:00:32Rich Roll?

  You were a G.I. Joe guy growing up.

• 1:00:34Speaker 03

  That's right. Yeah.

• 1:00:35Rich Roll?

  I read that. I read that.

• 1:00:39Rich Roll?

  I'm not going to be the guy who's going to ask the artist to explain his work, but if you did have to kind of crystallize, uh, you know, this guy that, you know, that it's like every one of your characters is a different version of kind of the same guy on some level. Like who is that guy? And why does he mean so much to you? Why do you keep kind of, um, returning to this exploration of, uh, the modern American male and his, you know, frailties and, and fractured relationship with his masculinity?

• 1:01:12Speaker 03

  You know, I don't, you know, I'm not sure why it is. I mean, I think that in my brain where it goes is, you know, like I said, growing up in a town like Spotsylvania, Virginia, where it's just like you're in the, you're in the everyday world. Uh, that's the world where stories that appeal to me take place. And, uh, but you want those stories to resonate with people. So I love the idea of characters that live in our world, but have sort of this epic imagination of who, of how they fit into the world and what they're doing. It's almost like all these guys have read Joseph Campbell and, uh, and they're assuming that they're the hero. And, uh, and then the reality is that they're not, you know, and that I just think there's something interesting about, uh, about taking a character

• 1:01:56Speaker 03

  on that journey. And maybe that's because that's the ultimate thing that maybe, uh, we're all quietly up against. And like what you were saying with people searching for, you know, Clavicular or any of these influences, like everyone is trying to figure out how they win. And that's what it is. And that's.

• 1:02:13Rich Roll?

  You have to walk a tightrope to portray these characters in a way where they're not,

• 1:02:21Rich Roll?

  um, cartoon figures or, or people that you're making fun of. Like there's always this like heart and compassion. Like, how do you do that? How do you infuse them with that so that we're kind of on board with them? And despite all their bad behavior, we still kind of wanted to work out for them.

• 1:02:36Speaker 03

  I think it's just like treating them real, like giving them depth. I think that that's what all of it comes to, you know? I would find myself a lot of times when I would watch like traditional comedies that I would always like be laughing in the first 30 minutes. And then in the second act, you kind of like, they start introducing reasons of why you should care. And then usually the third act, you're kind of like checking your watch. It's like, okay, it's done. I've got the joke. Uh, and so I think all of this stuff is ultimately like, let's make these characters not just, uh, you know, vehicles for punchlines. Like let's do that and let's make them as funny as we can, but like let's inject depth into them and layers into them so that, once you get to the third act, there's actually something for the audience to care about or to root for, or to want to see resolve.

• 1:03:18Speaker 03

  And, uh, and I think you get that from depth. I think you get that from treating them like they're real. And, um, you know, the people that I really have enjoyed working with, you know, in front of the camera, like Walton Goggins or Edie Patterson, John Goodman, like, these are all great, great actors. And the thing I love about them is they're never, they're not, they don't get excited about just the jokes. They get excited about the idea of how to inject the humanity into those characters.

• 1:03:44Rich Roll?

  They're, they're like Goodman is just oozing pathos and no matter what he's doing, you know, you know, he's going to bring that.

• 1:03:51Speaker 03

  And so when we, when I find those kinds of collaborators, that's the perfect recipe for what we're trying to do. Because at the end of the day, that's what we want. We don't want, uh, we want people to laugh, want them to be entertained. But at the end of the day, you do want people to care about these people and, and imagine that they could be real. And I don't think it's about justifying that type of person or what that person does. But I do think it has to, uh, we're all capable of like empathy and we all kind of want to understand the people around us, even the worst examples of the people around us. I think it's, it's better to try to have understanding of why they are, they, they tick that way as opposed to just write them off.

• 1:04:25Rich Roll?

  Do you think you can still find the satire in like our incredibly satirical world?

• 1:04:30Speaker 03

  I think, I, I think, I think you still can. Yeah. I really do.

• 1:04:34Rich Roll?

  How did you learn how to, how to do that? Was it just through experience? Like just the many years of banging, you know, banging it out, script after script?

• 1:04:44Speaker 03

  I think so. I think that all of the, every, every project I've done, there's always been a sense of, uh, when you approach the next one, like you just, I'm, I'm never satisfied with what we've done. I'm always sort of, I like this and I like that, but I'm always very like, but next time I would do this, or I would do that, or I would have a character that does this instead. So I think with all of it, it's just trying to push myself to, to, to, you know, refine it, to make it better, to push myself to try something different.

• 1:05:10Rich Roll?

  And on the day-to-day basis, is it more Steven Pressfield War of Art? I have, I'm a pro and I sit down and this is the time and nobody bother me? Or is it like you and your buddies getting stoned and fucking around?

• 1:05:22Speaker 03

  No, it's definitely, you know, it used to be that for sure. But it definitely has a, you know, it was really easy to do this job when I didn't have kids, you know, and I, you know, even just my, you know, it was just a girlfriend at the time before my, before he and I got married. Uh, you could be really selfish with your time and you, I could, you know, I could work all fucking day long until four o'clock in the morning. And like, you know, I could just, I just would give all my time to the job, you know, to creating. And then once kids came around, it started to be like, I don't, I don't want to give that much time to this. I want to get the, the result, but I also want to, I have other jobs now too. I want to be there for these kids. I want to, uh, be a good partner for

• 1:06:05Speaker 03

  my wife. I don't want to like, you know, push all these things off just because I'm making a TV show, you know? I, I gotta find the balance of it. So, um, you know, it just, you kind of just end up adjusting. And I found what worked for me is just, I just get up at the ass crack of dawn every day. Like I get up at like five in the morning and I just jam in the morning before everybody else is awake, you know? And then by the time the kids go awake, I already have started something that's got my mind working, that got, that has me excited. I can sit down and be present for those guys and get them to school and I drop them off. Then I come back home and I jam more. And then I, I just, yeah, I just try to find the time that works that doesn't like, uh, make me sequestered off while the rest of life is happening and I'm, you know, hammering away nonsense and

• 1:06:50Speaker 03

  dick jokes.

• 1:06:53Rich Roll?

  You've worked with so many brilliantly talented people like what, what, what lessons have you learned from, you know, I don't know, Will Ferrell, Ben Stiller, Judd Apatow, Seth Rogen, like all like, what are some of the lessons that have translated and kind of, you know, found their way into your work that have been meaningful to you?

• 1:07:13Speaker 03

  You know, one thing that I admire about all those guys is everyone that you mentioned, they're all really nice people. They really are. And I think that even, you know, you hear these horror stories of how, like how people can be divas in Hollywood or how they can, you know, it's cutthroat. And with all of those guys, there is always a sense of camaraderie, you know, Judd and Seth and their camp, like there were so many guys that were always on those sets that were around from freaks and geeks. And there were all, you know, friends and buddies and, you know, Stiller has, Stiller has his crew and, you know, Will had, you know, there were so many friends that were in that circle. And so I liked that I cause I felt like that that spoke to what my experience was with my friends of that you can, you can

• 1:07:54Speaker 03

  do this job and it's more fun to do it with friends. It's more fun to give buddies opportunities and, and to be loyal to people.

• 1:08:03Rich Roll?

  What's the advice that you give to young people, young filmmakers, aspiring writers?

• 1:08:10Speaker 03

  You know, the advice I got when I first moved out to Los Angeles was it was from like a guy who was, I had like, had a meeting with, he was like, he was like, you know, working out of his like Toyota Corolla. And he was, you know, he was like, looking at me to see if he wanted to manage me as a writer. And he didn't want to. But the, the, the advice he gave me is I was like, well, what do you think? Like, what, how do I get going here? He's like, look, it, you're not going to do what you want to do for a very long time. Find a job that, you know, you'll be okay with in the meantime, that doesn't make you want to kill yourself. And then he drove away and I was like, shit, this is going to be harder than I thought. And, but I think that that was really solid advice, because I think sometimes, you know,

• 1:08:47Rich Roll?

  Not relying on your art to pay the bills.

• 1:08:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. And to know that like, it's going to be different seasons of your relationship with your art, you know, and maybe in the beginning, just getting that proximity, that could be, even though it seems like it's the right move, like, oh, I got to live in LA where it's happening. But if to afford to live in LA means that you gotta like, work 16 hours a day and you're, you know, living with four people in an apartment, you know, that might not be the most conducive way for you ultimately to like, write or to achieve what you need to do. So I think it's like, finding a position for yourself where you can actually live a fruitful life and you can find inspiration and you can figure out how to pay the bills. And it might mean not being in the heart of a expensive city. It might mean like, you know, living somewhere that's cheaper and, and figuring out how to create your masterpiece outside of the system.

• 1:09:34Rich Roll?

  And what's the feeling that you want people to have after reading your book?

• 1:09:39Speaker 03

  I hope that honestly, that they're entertained. I mean, reading has been something that I've like, been passionate about since I was a kid. I mean, I started reading Stephen King when I was like in elementary school. I've always loved, I've always loved books. I've always loved being in the middle of stories. And I think in this day and age, when these screens are so present, and there's just this constant flood of information coming to us and seeing everything. For me, books have been a good antidote to that, you know, every time I feel like I want to scroll, or I want to look at something I have no control over and get angry about it. I find that it's more useful to put that thing down and to pick up a story and to pick up a book. And I think in general, it just chills you out. It just puts you in a mind space that, I don't know, I just always, my life always

• 1:10:23Speaker 03

  feels healthier when I'm in the middle of a good story.

• 1:10:26Rich Roll?

  Who are your guys? Like, other than King?

• 1:10:29Speaker 03

  I grew up, I grew up on all the horror stuff. Like, that was, I think, what got me into reading, because it didn't feel like homework. I was always with, with the horror and the thriller. I always was curious of what was going to happen. And that was the way where I, as a kid, wouldn't just like, be intimidated by the page counts, like the pages I would stop paying attention to, because I just wanted to know what was going to happen. But as I got older, I mean, I love Larry McMurtry, I love Cormac McCarthy, George Saunders, I love Jack Vance, this fantasy writer, I love Jim Thompson, you know, yeah, I really go through so many, so many different writers.

• 1:11:07Rich Roll?

  When you started writing horror, you did Exorcist, the Halloween movies, what did you have to learn or unlearn from being so, you know, kind of comedy brained?

• 1:11:19Speaker 03

  You know, it's, it's interesting, because even when we write our comedies, we don't write them like they're comedies. Like, we will write them like they're serious, you know, and then we'll find ways to inject humor. But a lot of times, we'll strip jokes out of the scripts, just because like, oh, this is like, pushing it too much. So I think in that regards, we approached that first Halloween, the same as we would approach anything, you know, just like, what's the story? How do we land it? Who are these characters? How do we make them real?

• 1:11:44Rich Roll?

  Same principles.

• 1:11:45Speaker 03

  Same principles, yeah.

• 1:11:48Rich Roll?

  This was great, man.

• 1:11:49Speaker 03

  Oh, thanks for having me out here. Weather's incredible. The sun even came out.

• 1:11:52Rich Roll?

  Thank you for traveling all the way out here, all the way from Spotsylvania.

• 1:11:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, I walked here from Spotsylvania.

• 1:11:59Rich Roll?

  To be here today with me. It's a treat to talk to you. And congrats on the book, man. You did a bang up job. It's fucking awesome. And I'm sure people are gonna love it. I mean, it just came out this Tuesday, right?

• 1:12:11Speaker 03

  This Tuesday, yeah. So we'll see like, a week and a half from now, when people have finished reading it, they're like, what's this dude thinking he's doing?

• 1:12:17Rich Roll?

  But the audiobook, when is the audiobook coming out?

• 1:12:19Speaker 03

  Audiobook is out now.

• 1:12:20Rich Roll?

  Oh, it's out now? I didn't know that. I thought it was still being worked on.

• 1:12:23Speaker 03

  Yep. No, the turnaround time on that is fast.

• 1:12:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, that's right. No overhead either. No shipping.

• 1:12:29Speaker 03

  No, no shipping.

• 1:12:31Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Well, best of luck to you and, and win in your sales, my friend. Thanks, dude.

• 1:12:36Speaker 03

  Thank you very much. I appreciate this.