Pod Insights The Rich Roll Podcast Todd Marinovich: The Superstar Quarterback Who Lost Himself In Drugs & Found Himself In Love About this episode Todd Marinovich is a former NFL quarterback, USC Rose Bowl champion, and the subject of the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary "The Marinovich Project."
This conversation explores the duality of engineered perfection and performance-based love. We discuss his father's authoritarian methods, the identity crisis of living someone else's dream, his harrowing addiction, the moment his father's approval paradoxically ended his motivation, and his journey toward self-compassion through art and recovery.
Through it all, Todd elucidates what it means to reclaim your humanity after decades of self-defiance.
Todd's story is raw and achingly human. And his message is clear—hope is a decision. Enjoy!
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Transcript 17,132 words · 2 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Speaker 00 My experience with addiction, I was on a different frequency. I couldn't stand me or what I did. I wanted so out. Oh, it was just, it felt so fake. It's my duty, what I've lived through, to share my experience. And, you know, I hope I can connect with one, you know? Because I do know what it's like.
0:39 Rich Roll? If you happen to be in my general age range, then there's a chance that, like me, you grew up following the life trajectory of today's guest. One of my generation's most promising professional athletes, who befell a fall from grace of such astonishing proportions. His life became synonymous with a cautionary tale about perfectionism and performance, poor parenting and generational trauma. From his first breath, Todd Marinovich was raised to be the world's greatest quarterback. Beginning well before Pop Warner, throughout high school and during his early years at USC, this dream, at least on a surface level, seemed to be unfolding beautifully. Courtesy of a dad, I think it's fair to say,
1:24 Rich Roll? was far too invested in it becoming reality. A former football player himself, Marv Marinovich, had taken USC to a national championship in 1962. But his career in the NFL with the Raiders was cut short due to overtraining. This, in turn, prompted Marv to develop this obsession with understanding training techniques, this investigation, this journey that he went on, that led him to studying Soviet and Eastern Bloc conditioning philosophies, learnings that, at the time, he was well ahead of his time, he then put to work in his own home by raising his son as if in a lab. A lab designed to optimize every single facet of Todd's young life.
2:10 Rich Roll? Marv oversaw pretty much with authoritarian rule. Ever eager to win over his dad's approval, Todd basically did everything he could to live up to his father's expectations and public expectations, exceeding them at times by doing all kinds of things, breaking high school records, taking USC to a Rose Bowl victory in his freshman year, which marked the first time that a USC freshman had started at quarterback since before World War II. But things were not all as they seemed. Behind closed doors, Todd is a kid who began self-medicating with marijuana in high school and using alcohol to relieve himself of the burdensome expectations being placed upon him everywhere he looked.
2:52 Rich Roll? Nonetheless, the kid continued to win, often in stunning fashion, and eventually took his talents to his father's beloved Raiders as a first-round NFL draft pick. But he was hanging on by a thread by that time, and his life would soon fall completely apart. And I'm going to let Todd share the rest, but suffice it to say that addiction took hold of Todd to such a depraved extent, he would end up in the darkest and most desperate of places, gambling with his life for a needle to the neck without a care of dying. It's truly an extraordinary story, one you might have seen told years back in the ESPN 30 for 30 documentary about his life. But now Todd shares all of it in his own words
3:35 Rich Roll? and from his point of view in this conversation and in his newly released memoir, Marinovich.
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4:48 Rich Roll? So this is a classic, what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now episode, in which Todd reflects on the trauma he suffered at the hands of his father, the career that never was, the things about him that are misunderstood due to the press misrepresenting him, how he survived one of the most bone chilling bouts with drug addiction that I've ever heard, and how he pursues life today as an artist, as a father intent upon not imposing the trauma he experienced on his kids, and as just a sober person trying to live one day at a time. There's so much in Todd's story, and as someone who is privy to thousands of stories like this, Todd stands out just because of the sheer extremity of
5:29 Rich Roll? it all. You can hear his pain. The struggle for him is still very real and ongoing. That's pretty evident and undeniable. But there's also a sense that he has made peace with his past. And so I guess the main thing I hope that you get out of listening to this is that no matter how far down you have fallen, no matter how dire or desperate your circumstances, Todd's testimony is that hope is a decision. And when you make the decision to be hopeful, life becomes possible.
6:00 Rich Roll? Well, Todd, it's absolutely a pleasure to have you here. I'm looking forward to marinating in the Marinovich experience.
6:07 Speaker 00 Cool. Thanks for having me, Rich.
6:09 Rich Roll? I think the best way to go about this is to do an old school, what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now.
6:16 Speaker 00 Wow.
6:17 Rich Roll? Are you up for that?
6:17 Speaker 00 Sure.
6:18 Rich Roll? But I think the best place to begin, like, first off, before we get into anything, like, how are you doing right now? Where are you at right now with your sobriety, with how you feel about your life? Before we look into the rearview mirror, I just want to get a gut check on the present moment for you.
6:40 Speaker 00 Present moment is, um, good. Really good. I am in the area, seeing family, and that's always important. And enjoying the time here while I'm here, but I'll be back in Hawaii very shortly.
7:01 Rich Roll? Mm-hmm.
7:01 Speaker 00 Yeah.
7:02 Rich Roll? Relationship with the kids is good?
7:04 Speaker 00 Yes.
7:06 Rich Roll? You're on steady ground with your sobriety right now?
7:12 Speaker 00 You know, and it's something that's, it's day to day.
7:16 Rich Roll? Mm-hmm.
7:17 Speaker 00 I can't, uh, it's tough knowing that no matter what I do today has really no bearing on tomorrow. And so, um, I just try to live in the moment.
7:33 Rich Roll? Yeah.
7:33 Speaker 00 And, and be of service. That's kind of what I try to do.
7:40 Rich Roll? What are your, uh, non-negotiables to make sure that you're keeping on track?
7:48 Speaker 00 Just not being where I'm not supposed to be. There's just, uh, what, ask myself, what I'm, what am I there really for? And, um, concerts can be a little bit sticky, but it, I always take somebody. I don't do that shit alone, yeah.
8:08 Rich Roll? Are you tapped into the program of recovery? Or are you on your own kind of protocol?
8:16 Speaker 00 Um, kind of just, um...
8:19 Speaker 00 On protocol at the moment.
8:21 Rich Roll? Yeah.
8:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
8:22 Rich Roll? Living in Hawaii.
8:23 Speaker 00 Yeah.
8:24 Rich Roll? Away from the noise.
8:25 Speaker 00 Right.
8:26 Rich Roll? Away from all of the preconceived notions of who you are and who you're supposed to be. Is that part of it?
8:36 Speaker 00 It just feels right. Yeah.
8:40 Rich Roll? Yeah. Let's take it back to the beginning here. There'll, there'll be a lot of people watching or listening who are familiar with your story, or at least think that they're familiar with your story. And that's part of the reason I'm sure why you decided to write this book, to tell your story in your own words, because I think there's a lot of misconceptions floating out there around, you know, who you are and how you became the person that you are. So I want to hear your version of it, but let's begin at the beginning. You're this kid growing up in Orange County.
9:12 Speaker 00 Yeah.
9:13 Rich Roll? You're kind of an artistic surfer kid, a shy kid. But you have this very interesting father figure who, who looms large in your story. How do you, how do you set the stage when people ask you, you know, who you are and how it all began?
9:32 Speaker 00 Well, at that age, Marv was a giant, a giant of a man, because I'm, I'm growing up, always looking up at him. But he was a big dude, 6'3", 270 when he played.
9:47 Speaker 00 And I got to know firsthand what defensive linemen were like in the NFL early on. He showed me throughout my whole young life. And it was, it was scary because that's exactly.
10:06 Rich Roll? Who he was.
10:07 Speaker 00 Yeah.
10:07 Rich Roll? Yeah.
10:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
10:08 Rich Roll? So Marv, your dad, he, correct me if I'm wrong, he led USC to a national championship in 1962.
10:17 Speaker 00 Got it.
10:18 Rich Roll? So USC guy goes on to play for the Raiders and ultimately ends up not realizing his potential because he overtrained.
10:27 Speaker 00 Correct.
10:28 Rich Roll? Correct. And so his professional football career gets cut short. And then he becomes obsessed with training techniques. Like, why did I overtrain? How could I have done it differently? And he starts to steep himself in all these different philosophies of training. Eastern Bloc, Russian modalities, et cetera. And you can make a strong argument that he was way ahead of the curve. He figured out some stuff well in advance of what everyone else was doing. But then you come along, he's got a son, and he realizes, well, this is the ultimate opportunity to apply everything that he's learned onto your young self.
11:11 Rich Roll? And he asks himself this question, like, what would happen if you could control the environment of a young athlete and raise somebody to be a champion? I mean, is that fair? Was that his operating philosophy?
11:23 Speaker 00 You nailed it, except that I came along right at the start of his career, so to speak, with the Raiders.
11:33 Rich Roll? He was a strength and conditioning coach.
11:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, but that was his focus. I mean, he coached positions throughout his coaching career, but he was all about, he was a scientist, basically. Yeah.
11:46 Rich Roll? A demanding one. To say the least.
11:51 Speaker 00 Yes.
11:52 Rich Roll? Yeah. You know, the narrative that's been out there, we're the same age, essentially. So I've lived with your story in real time throughout the course of your life and am very familiar with who you are and what you were doing when you were doing it because of our similarity in age. And there was this narrative, as you started to develop as an athlete in high school, that he was this overbearing personality who forced you to play football. And all of the articles that were written were about this robotic QB who was incubated in a lab, who's never eaten McDonald's, and is just this absolute killer purebred.
12:37 Rich Roll? And in the 30 for 30 that you did with ESPN, I think that was in 2011, and in your book, you're telling a very different story about who this person is or was.
12:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, I mean, some of it was accurate, but...
12:53 Speaker 00 It was mainly the diet that was blown so out of proportion. And at the time, being like 15 years old, when I think People Magazine interviewed me, I was like, well shit, I can't say, tell the truth about my diet, even though I was sneaking on the side, even through my mother and her side of the family. So I said, no, I've never had that. And then it was such big headlines that it was like a runaway train. Then it was just an onslaught. And it seemed like, at that time, I was getting attention for that, rather than my skills on the field.
13:37 Rich Roll? Yeah. And rather than being recognized for what you were doing as an athlete, everything was about this laboratory kind of aspect of your life. That was a little out of whack. And not for nothing, you didn't want any of this. I mean, you love football, but, and that gets missed also, because there's this idea that your dad was making you play football. You're pretty clear that you love the game. But that you're this really shy kid. You weren't seeking out the spotlight. You're getting all this attention and all this media, and that kind of materializes later into magazine covers and the like. But you weren't really about that. And that made you deeply uncomfortable from the beginning.
14:22 Rich Roll? So this narrative is getting spun out in the world that feels out of your control. That doesn't necessarily or realistically reflect who you are. And so, from the very outset of your athletic career, or your young life, there's almost this identity crisis that's happening. You're being cast as this character in the world that isn't really you. And even before drugs enter the picture, there's a double life happening.
14:49 Speaker 00 Yes.
14:50 Rich Roll? So that's a confusing experience for a young man to navigate.
14:55 Speaker 00 Absolutely. And now having kids that are in their teenage years, it's just a trip.
15:06 Rich Roll? In what way?
15:09 Speaker 00 Well, in a way that is...
15:13 Speaker 00 Soberingly serious, just about, there's no such thing as experimental drug use today. You just wind up dead. That's super scary. But it's just a different world, yeah, that they're growing up. I couldn't imagine going through my high school experience with Instagram or something.
15:35 Rich Roll? How do you talk to your kids about your past and drugs and alcohol?
15:41 Speaker 00 I'm just honest with them. I am.
15:45 Rich Roll? And what is their reaction to that or their relationship to substances like being, you know, young people in the world where that's around?
15:55 Speaker 00 We'll find out. It's ongoing. They're young and I definitely don't have the answers other than, you know, suit up and show up and be honest. And when I say I'm going to be there, I'll do the best to my ability to be there.
16:13 Rich Roll? But one thing I think you've learned is that trying to control them is probably not going to work out.
16:19 Speaker 00 Oh, you think? Yes. And it's been passed on, the gene too, of just defiance. And I think that's in every teen that, you know, you're not going to tell me what to do.
16:39 Rich Roll? Yeah, I mean, differentiating, like they gotta see who they are by testing the boundaries. Like, part of that's good, you know, it can go too far easily.
16:47 Speaker 00 You're a living example.
16:49 Rich Roll? You're a test case in that. But when I think of your life, it's just all about all these dualities. You know, the athlete and the addict, the kind of sensitive artist and then the, you know, superhuman guy on the field. And this crisis of identity that I think is like at the crux of your whole life story, that I feel like on some level, the book is an attempt for you to resolve for yourself. Like, who is this guy? Like, you've been programmed from day one to be this champion. And you go out and you fulfill that on some level for yourself, but really for your dad and for coaches and teammates, et cetera.
17:34 Rich Roll? You never really had a normal childhood. You never really had the opportunity to decide for yourself, like who you are and what's important to you. Yeah. And so it's like the most predictable thing ever that you would, you know, find yourself, you know, moving towards drugs and alcohol as a, as a way to salve like that. When you're young, you don't, you don't understand what that confusion is all about or that, that, that feeling of unease that accompanies you wherever you go. So, you know, to me, like, I understand that, like, I can, it just makes perfect sense that that's where you would end up.
18:11 Rich Roll? And most do, you know, and especially, um, you know, at that age, like you say. So your dad, uh, you know, for better or worse, is controlling your environment. For sure. He cares a lot about your development as an athlete. Yeah. There's a lot of love there, but it's delivered in harsh tones. Yeah. Right? Like, some of the stories are crazy, like making you run eight mile. It's like, you know, if you didn't perform well, like, you know, what you had to do to make sure that he was okay, like, he was quite the taskmaster. And to this day, still sort of stands out in culture as this cautionary tale about the overbearing dad.
18:55 Rich Roll? Like, even in, I recently re-watched Friday Night Lights, like, the entire, like, show, like, all five seasons of it or whatever. And there is a, there is an arc. I don't, have you watched that show before? Uh, some of it. There's an arc where, uh, suddenly this new young quarterback shows up with a dad that I can't help but think was modeled somewhat on your dad. And he's sort of a threat to the current quarterback and, and there's a lot of friction with the coach, et cetera. It's undeniable that this kid is like, by far, the most talented kid, and he's been raised from day one to be Be this champion and it's so evocative of your story. I can't imagine that that would have been built into that television show
19:40 Rich Roll? short of your story. So the narrative that was out in the world was, you know, this guy is an absolute beast. But what's confusing is that there was a lot of love there, too.
19:54 Speaker 00 For sure, for sure.
19:56 Rich Roll? And I think that in like, I rewatched the 30 for 30 and in reading your book, I feel like you're still trying to make sense of how you feel about the whole thing.
20:09 Speaker 00 It was a definite one of a kind experience. And, you know, the best and the hardest part was toward the end of his life. You know, it was something that I would never could have expected. Him getting sick with dementia that it was just enjoying the moment with him. And we had some amazing moments amongst the craziness. But it was, I was just super, super stoked and grateful to, that I suited up and showed up.
20:50 Rich Roll? Yeah. I mean, that's what you get to do in sobriety.
20:53 Speaker 00 For sure.
20:54 Rich Roll? And in his case, his Alzheimer's showed up in a way where he was able to just be present. And, and all of the judgments and all of that was gone, right? So you could just be with him.
21:09 Speaker 00 Yes.
21:09 Rich Roll? But even before that, you had really mended the relationship. I mean, you guys were like sculpting together. At the end of the 30 for 30, there's that incredible wood sculpture that the two of you worked on for like 18 months, right? That's really an exquisite piece of art that, to me, symbolizes some healing between you because you worked on it symbiotically. There wasn't like a hierarchy of who was in charge or who was telling who what to do.
21:36 Speaker 00 Right, which was amazing to experience when he's always had been up there throughout my whole life. And then he stepped off that and it was just effortless. And that's the way. We do best when we're not fighting, you know?
21:52 Rich Roll? Yeah, but it took a long, it took a long time to get there.
21:55 Speaker 00 Yeah. So a lifetime.
21:58 Rich Roll? Just so, you know, the audience kind of understands where we're at. Marv is raising you in a very specific way in this, you know, ultimate performance environment. And you basically shoulder the assignment and you end up at Mater Dei as a freshman in high school, which is this powerhouse high school football program. And you're starting like this is unprecedented. Not only are you starting, you're killing it. And your parents get divorced and you end up transferring to a different high school, Capstrano Valley.
22:34 Speaker 00 Right.
22:35 Rich Roll? And you end up like breaking all the record, like you, you become essentially by the time you're a senior in high school, like, you know, the ultimate college football prospect, like you're the most recruited guy in the country. You are the superstar football player in the United States.
22:54 Speaker 00 And pretending to be.
22:56 Rich Roll? Yeah, well, you, I mean, you were, yeah, like the identity crisis is about to, you know, emerge in full bloom. But at this point, you know, you're dabbling a little bit, but you know, it's, it seems like it's under control.
23:09 Speaker 00 Oh, sure.
23:09 Rich Roll? So I don't think you were pretending, like when you were on the field, you know, I think that you, I mean, tell me if I'm wrong, like you were happy to be on the field. It was all the pressure and the expectations and this misconstrued sense of who you were that was creating the confusion, like.
23:28 Speaker 00 Yeah.
23:29 Rich Roll? On the field, things were simple. You were able under, especially under pressure to execute.
23:35 Speaker 00 Yeah, completely. And the pressure I was, you know, I was putting it on myself.
23:41 Rich Roll? Were you though?
23:42 Speaker 00 Yeah, I loaded, you know, I took it. That's the way I perceived it is if I could, like you said, if I can perform, then every... I'm gonna get the love, I'm gonna get everything that I want.
23:54 Rich Roll? Right, and the reason you were putting the pressure on yourself was because the pressure had been placed upon you and the equation was like you have to do well in order to feel okay.
24:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
24:07 Rich Roll? And at the same time, I don't know how much you thought about this, but there's a real unhealthy transference here, like you were responsible for making sure that your father felt okay.
24:19 Speaker 00 Yeah, I know.
24:20 Rich Roll? Yeah. And that's a heavy burden.
24:24 Speaker 00 And more than that, that mom felt okay.
24:27 Rich Roll? Right.
24:27 Speaker 00 If I performed, then their relationship seemed to be a lot more mellow.
24:33 Rich Roll? Right, so their marriage was your responsibility also.
24:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
24:37 Rich Roll? So not only did you have to break records on the field, you had to keep your parents together and you had to make sure that your dad was okay and your parents were okay. And your mom was like the softie, right? Like she was the safe place for you.
24:50 Speaker 00 Yes. Yeah.
24:53 Rich Roll? It's a lot.
24:54 Speaker 00 Yeah.
24:56 Rich Roll? When I rewatched The 30 for 30, the thing that stood out for me the most, and it's just kind of a moment that passes really quickly. There's a moment where your dad is asked, is there anything you would have done differently?
25:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
25:09 Rich Roll? Basically asking him to reflect on the choices that he made about how he raised you.
25:14 Speaker 00 Yeah.
25:16 Rich Roll? And he says, well, I would have, I suppose I could have done a better job keeping him away from the drugs.
25:24 Speaker 00 Really?
25:25 Rich Roll? He says that. Which is fine, but to me, he's missing the whole point.
25:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
25:31 Rich Roll? You know, it's like, all right, well, the drugs were the symptom, you know, of the problem, not the problem. Like he still wasn't able to identify his role in everything that like led up to you making those choices. Which, you know, for me, if I was watching that and I was you, I'd be like, that would be painful for me.
25:52 Speaker 00 I got to the point where I fully felt and believed that he was doing the best he could with the information that he had at the time.
26:01 Rich Roll? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's the only way to move forward, right? To find forgiveness and love.
26:08 Speaker 00 It was easy to with him because I fully believed that he had my best interest always. And gave me so much confidence. Without him, I wouldn't have believed I could have done things that I did on the field. And then when I stopped playing, he was always there. And that's just, what more do you want in a human?
26:39 Rich Roll? It's hard, I would imagine, for people to really realize that you are a shy and introverted guy, you know, because you're such a larger-than-life figure on the field. And, you know, you demonstrated your exuberance on the field, too. So anybody who's watching you would think, oh, this guy's a showman, right? So that's the other duality. Not only are you performing athletically, but you're performing to the crowd also.
27:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
27:06 Rich Roll? Whereas at the same time, you know, you're this guy who wants to go paint and like be left alone.
27:13 Speaker 00 But it's the game that brings that out of me.
27:15 Rich Roll? Yeah.
27:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's not really like Sam. I'm not seeking that, but it just happens playing football. It's great. That's what I just love. It's never over until it's over.
27:28 Rich Roll? But that shyness and that introversion finally gets introduced to drugs and alcohol when you're in high school, right? Did it start at modern day?
27:38 Speaker 00 Yeah.
27:38 Rich Roll? So you were like a sophomore in high school.
27:42 Speaker 00 Yeah.
27:42 Rich Roll? How did it start?
27:44 Speaker 00 Well, it started with alcohol long before then, just, you know, stealing drinks from the parties of the family they have, you know? But in high school, going after games to Caggers, doing that whole bit. And... I like the effects produced by alcohol, for sure.
28:06 Rich Roll? Do you remember the first time, like, the feeling of relief?
28:11 Speaker 00 It was, the best one was marijuana smoking a joint at that age. It just was instantaneously, everything's gonna be okay.
28:21 Rich Roll? Right, all of that tension that you didn't even know that you were holding is suddenly gone.
28:26 Speaker 00 Yes, so it was a spiritual experience, for sure. Because it was like, what, I had been seeking this for a long time. And I didn't really get that with the alcohol, but I did with weed.
28:40 Rich Roll? And you're like, this is it, man, this is it.
28:43 Speaker 00 This is the secret.
28:44 Rich Roll? Yeah. In your case, you know, there's a lot of hand wringing over whether or not marijuana is a gateway drug. But I think in your case, it's pretty clear that maybe it was.
28:57 Speaker 00 I can't argue with that.
28:58 Rich Roll? Yeah, and this was something, maybe your classmates knew you were doing, obviously, but like, but you were keeping it from the folks and everybody else. So this was like a secret.
29:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:08 Rich Roll? Until.
29:11 Rich Roll? You know what I'm talking about?
29:13 Speaker 00 Until Mar finds out, or my mom.
29:17 Rich Roll? Well, there was a, there was a crowd chant.
29:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
29:23 Speaker 00 Yes, and if I could have crawled in a hole, yeah.
29:29 Rich Roll? Can you explain, can you just, can you share what we're talking about?
29:32 Speaker 00 For just playing basketball on the free throw line, and it's so different than football, because you can scream all you want at the football field, we can't hear anything. But in a basketball gym, and playing in the opposing, playing on the road there, it got quiet, and the whole football team's up in the crowd chanting marijuana bitch. And it just, it was unmistakable.
30:00 Rich Roll? Yeah.
30:01 Speaker 00 That they're yelling that at me, with my family, my grandmother and grandfather, you know, it was.
30:08 Speaker 00 Definitely.
30:09 Rich Roll? That's how the family found out.
30:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
30:11 Rich Roll? Yeah. We were chatting before the podcast and I was just saying, you know, that we're the same age. And so I remember when that happened and that became news. And everyone was just calling you marijuana.
30:23 Speaker 00 Right.
30:23 Rich Roll? Like, that followed you.
30:25 Speaker 00 Yes.
30:25 Rich Roll? For a long time.
30:26 Speaker 00 It sure did.
30:28 Rich Roll? For good reason.
30:28 Speaker 00 Yeah.
30:29 Rich Roll? You know. But, you know, listen, the addict is always gonna find their drug of choice to, you know, to help them feel okay in the world. And it's just, I think what gets missed by the average person who isn't an addict or isn't familiar with this disease is they just, they don't understand the intense degree of discomfort. And it's not a choice. It's like, it's a survival mechanism. On some level, you had to find your way to these, to these things in order to make it through. Like, you know, had you not, like, what, you know, have you ever thought about, like,
31:09 Rich Roll? what would have happened or what you would have done if you couldn't find a coping mechanism?
31:15 Speaker 00 Oh, shit.
31:16 Rich Roll? To, you know, deal with the unique set of circumstances that you found yourself in?
31:21 Speaker 00 I mean, not, uh, I've thought that, you know, that it's kept me on the planet, for sure. You know, as bad as they are, um, they work.
31:36 Speaker 00 Until they don't.
31:37 Rich Roll? Yeah. Do you have a sense of when, in your life, it stopped working?
31:44 Speaker 00 In my case, it has always worked. It's just the consequences keep coming.
31:49 Rich Roll? Mm-hmm.
31:50 Speaker 00 You know?
31:51 Rich Roll? It does the job. It's just that there's a lot of chaos that, yeah.
31:54 Speaker 00 And it doesn't do the job like it used to do the job, let's be clear, but it, it's, it's not the same. It's a chase.
32:02 Rich Roll? Yeah.
32:03 Speaker 00 It's an illusion.
32:05 Rich Roll? So you figure out how you're gonna spin all of these plates and keep it together and
32:10 Speaker 00 It's a juggling act.
32:12 Rich Roll? Double down on this double life that you're leading.
32:14 Speaker 00 Yeah.
32:15 Rich Roll? You graduate from high school and in very celebrated fashion end up at USC. We were chatting about like what would have happened because you thought about going to Stanford, right?
32:26 Speaker 00 More than a thought.
32:27 Rich Roll? Yeah, we were like, well, we would have definitely partied together, but anyway. You go to USC. It is kind of a foregone conclusion though, like the family legacy, my family legacy was so strong there that had you decided to go to Stanford, I mean, your story is very much one of rebellion, so maybe that would have been an act of rebellion for you to do that. But you're at USC and this is such a storied football program and you show up with lots of expectations being placed upon you. And once again, you live up to them. I mean, you, you start as quarterback as a freshman and this is something that had not happened at USC since World War II.
33:12 Rich Roll? No freshman had been a starting quarterback. Is that right?
33:16 Speaker 00 But I also got a full year or a redshirt year.
33:20 Rich Roll? You had a redshirt year.
33:21 Speaker 00 Technically a freshman.
33:22 Rich Roll? I see.
33:23 Speaker 00 But I got a, and that year was a huge, in my success was that I got to practice against one of the best defenses every day in practice and they didn't, even though I did have a different colored jersey, they didn't treat me like I had a different colored jersey. They were like body slamming me.
33:41 Rich Roll? So you had a development year.
33:42 Speaker 00 Yes, a humbling development year.
33:45 Rich Roll? Yeah.
33:46 Speaker 00 It was really cool. And I got to travel with the team also, but knew I was in a place, so it was a good experience.
33:52 Rich Roll? Right. Without the pressure.
33:54 Speaker 00 Yeah.
33:55 Rich Roll? To perform.
33:56 Speaker 00 Yeah, it was key.
33:57 Rich Roll? That must have been nice, actually.
33:58 Speaker 00 It was nice.
33:59 Rich Roll? You know?
34:00 Speaker 00 Yeah.
34:01 Rich Roll? To be a little anonymous.
34:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
34:03 Rich Roll? On the team. And how did your relationship with, with partying change once you got to USC?
34:07 Speaker 00 Well, me and my cousin would go up to SC while we were still in high school, maybe once or twice after a football game or before a football game. So we knew, we wanted to graduate from our high schools and obviously really turn the party up at SC and it was, we were looking forward to it and it changed.
34:31 Speaker 00 The big change was the big party was Thursday night for some reason.
34:36 Rich Roll? That's not the best timing.
34:40 Rich Roll? When did other drugs start to enter the picture like cocaine?
34:43 Speaker 00 SE.
34:44 Rich Roll? At SE, yeah. Right away or?
34:47 Speaker 00 Pretty much right away.
34:49 Rich Roll? And what was the experience of doing that for the first time?
34:53 Speaker 00 It's just so much talkative energy.
34:58 Speaker 00 And then I was with a buddy that had so much energy that was scary because he was a big man. And
35:08 Speaker 00 the mixture without alcohol, I found to be
35:13 Speaker 00 more fun at that time. I couldn't imagine doing it just by itself, the cocaine, which I then tried and I was right. You should do them together. It was a little much, but yeah. I really never done a drug I didn't like. I'm one of those that I enjoy them all. Some more than others.
35:34 Rich Roll? Is China White at the top of the list though?
35:37 Speaker 00 It's up there.
35:38 Rich Roll? Yeah.
35:40 Rich Roll? Black Tar second?
35:41 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's not even.
35:43 Rich Roll? In the hierarchy? No. So, so like break it down. Like what's at the top?
35:51 Speaker 00 Well, there's some good pharmaceuticals, even though I'm not really a pharmaceutical guy. But I have messed around with, you know, Delaudid and Denver. They're good.
36:04 Speaker 00 But the combination of the China, what almost killed me was the China White cocaine combination. Yeah, I was chasing that one. That was when I was in Canada playing up in the Canadian Football League.
36:17 Rich Roll? The book opens with this really harrowing.
36:22 Rich Roll? Story of you being in a warehouse in East LA. You no longer have any more veins available for shooting up. You're on the precipice of getting dope sick and you gotta make it happen. And you end up filing down this, this needle that's too large for your purpose. And deciding that the only way you're gonna prevent yourself from getting dope sick is by injecting yourself with this needle into your jugular vein in your neck.
36:54 Speaker 00 It's a bad place to be.
36:56 Rich Roll? Yeah, knowing this could be the end, you know, and still making that decision to do it. And I think that story is, you know, it's terrifying for anybody to read, especially for anybody who isn't familiar with the dark throes of addiction. But it evokes like the desperation, like you'll go to any lengths to do it. And this is where it, it takes you. And it's so shocking because the contrast between this celebrated aspect of your, your story and this, you know, other life that you were living, like it's hard for people to understand like how you could end up in a place like that.
37:36 Speaker 00 Right. And that's the thing with addiction. It doesn't, it is not in any way prejudiced at all. And then I'm asking myself the same thing, cause I didn't grow up trying to be this. I was just trying to survive at that time, stay alive, you know? And I wasn't thinking about, cause you said like dying, that's not on the mind. It's just to get well at that stage of the game. And it's just a fucked place to be.
38:16 Rich Roll? Yeah.
38:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:18 Rich Roll? So you're at USC, you're killing it. You take the team to the Rose Bowl, you know, you have this epic game, you win the Rose Bowl, like you're, I mean, you're just, you're like firing on all cylinders and you're keeping it together, like you're partying.
38:33 Speaker 00 Firing on all cylinders.
38:35 Rich Roll? On the field, on the field. You're, you're living up to the hype, right? You're living up to the hype for the most part. And I'm curious around. The ego piece, like this idea of knowing that you're living a double life. And when you're young and you can, you can kind of get away with stuff, you know,
38:54 Speaker 00 Sure.
38:54 Rich Roll? at that age, right?
38:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
38:55 Rich Roll? This idea of not only am I superhuman on the field, I can also like be the last guy to leave the party.
39:02 Speaker 00 Uh huh.
39:02 Rich Roll? I can do both and, and still, you know, show up for practice and do all of those things like.
39:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
39:09 Rich Roll? There's a insanity to that, but it's very, you know, it's a very ego driven.
39:14 Speaker 00 Grandiose.
39:15 Rich Roll? Yeah, there's a, yeah, grandiosity, exactly.
39:17 Speaker 00 For sure. For sure.
39:20 Rich Roll? Yeah.
39:20 Speaker 00 But I, in a sense, you need that athletically. And so that's where the duality of that is so dangerous. The only way that I can really compete at that high, high level is to believe I can do that every, every time I go out and I can't. Realistically, I can't do that every time I go out.
39:43 Rich Roll? Yeah.
39:43 Speaker 00 You know? But I gotta believe it or it's gonna be really bad.
39:46 Rich Roll? Mm hmm. Yeah, that confidence or that, that sense of being bulletproof.
39:50 Speaker 00 Yeah.
39:52 Rich Roll? Being this superpower, but also an Achilles heel, because you're gonna put yourself in situations you shouldn't be in and thinking you're gonna be able to get away with it.
39:59 Speaker 00 Right.
40:00 Rich Roll? Yeah. You have this clash with the coach at USC. You guys just, you know, never should have been coach, athlete together, you know, like this, this is just not, you know, the right recipe for you. Is he aware of, like, prior to the Sugar Bowl and all that stuff that happened, like, at what point is he aware that you, maybe you're going off the rails in your social life?
40:27 Speaker 00 Um, well, he was getting stories. The stories were coming back to him about my antics off the field. So he, he brought me in and was doing the pen, he said, follow the pen. So he, he was, he had questions really early on of that second season. He was just the authority figure. It was Marv, you know? I saw, I was at that, I was at my peak rebellious, you know, phase at that point, you know?
41:02 Speaker 00 And I don't know how I would even handled me at that, you know. He, and he just came from a different part of the country and it was midwestern football. And with that mentality of, you know, the old Woody Hayes or Bo Schembechler years of just three yards and a cloud of dust and fundamentals and not that I was against fundamentals or anything, it was, I just wasn't, didn't want to be told what to do and that's what his job is. And so I was in the wrong, you know?
41:43 Rich Roll? It's a unique case though, because yeah, I mean, the team's not going to work if you're not taking direction from the coach, of course.
41:52 Speaker 00 Right.
41:52 Rich Roll? You can't just be out freewheeling it and doing what you want. And yet, at the same time, you're, you're, you're a generational talent and you know, there's an argument to be made that you had a better feel for the game and what needed to get done than, than he did. And yet you don't have the agency to make those calls about which plays to, you know, et cetera. But there were moments where the, you know, the team was up against it and it was like, well, let's let you decide. I think on some level he recognized that you did have a better sense than he did and, and probably considered that a threat. And his only way to deal with that threat was to come at you hard.
42:32 Speaker 00 Quite possibly. And we had a good backup. So he just felt like maybe we can pull a few off if I can teach Todd a lesson here.
42:45 Rich Roll? Yeah. Yeah. So he's benching you here and there.
42:48 Speaker 00 Yeah.
42:49 Rich Roll? He makes the decision your sophomore year to go to the Sugar Bowl, which you wanted, the Sun Bowl, sorry. I said the Sugar Bowl earlier. I meant the Sun Bowl.
42:57 Speaker 00 But it's ironic because it's snowing.
43:00 Rich Roll? Yeah. This was not where you wanted to be.
43:03 Speaker 00 No.
43:04 Rich Roll? And
43:05 Speaker 00 Or any of us.
43:06 Rich Roll? Like you're just, you're off the rails at this point.
43:11 Rich Roll? You know, I mean, you show up for the game like hungover. You don't want to play like this is not going well. Cracks are starting to show, buddy.
43:21 Speaker 00 No, it was early in the week, Rich, but I did get I me and tequila never do well. And I was definitely alcohol poisoning midweek. Practice was just painful. I couldn't even imagine. I was looking down at my buddies who are linebackers and they're actually doing tackling drills, which I couldn't even imagine with the headache that I had. And I was really stoked to be a quarterback in those moments where I didn't have to hit anybody. But by the time the game rolled around, I was feeling.
43:54 Rich Roll? Yeah.
43:55 Speaker 00 Feeling all right.
43:56 Rich Roll? What are your teammates saying to you during this time? They still have your back? Or are they starting to think, you know, this guy showing up half cocked?
44:08 Speaker 00 No, they a lot of them were right there with me. It wasn't.
44:13 Rich Roll? Just work hard, play hard.
44:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
44:15 Rich Roll? Thought. Yeah.
44:16 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, yeah. The best ones do. That was what we thought.
44:19 Rich Roll? Right, right, right.
44:20 Speaker 00 Yeah.
44:21 Rich Roll? So there's this epic, you know, battle between you and the coach at the Sun Bowl. And this is, you know, this is the fight that was kind of heard across the world where you guys finally come to loggerheads.
44:35 Speaker 00 Right.
44:37 Rich Roll? What happened?
44:41 Speaker 00 He just lost it when he asked if I was going to go back into the game if we got the ball back and it didn't get the ball back.
44:51 Rich Roll? He had taken you out.
44:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
44:53 Rich Roll? And he was considering putting you back in.
44:55 Speaker 00 And he was fuming. I could feel the heat coming off him. He wanted an answer if I'd go back in. And I pointed to the whole offense that was sitting together, waiting the lineman and everybody. I'll go back in for them. And that just.
45:14 Rich Roll? Meaning like, I'm not doing it for you. I'm doing it for my guys.
45:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
45:17 Rich Roll? Yeah. And that, that, that lit them off.
45:19 Speaker 00 But yeah, it was over.
45:21 Rich Roll? There was a little lip reading that was done on, on television because no one could hear what you said, but it was pretty clear what you said, which was some version of like, fuck this, I'm out of here.
45:31 Speaker 00 Yeah.
45:32 Rich Roll? Um, and that was it. Like you were, you were done at USC.
45:35 Speaker 00 Yeah. And it sucked. I was bummed. There was no thought of transfer, you know, like today guys put, jump all over. I, there wasn't even a thought of it. I couldn't, couldn't imagine playing for another college.
45:48 Rich Roll? So what did you think at that moment was gonna happen with your future?
45:53 Speaker 00 I didn't know.
45:54 Rich Roll? Did you think your career with football might be over?
45:57 Speaker 00 No.
45:59 Rich Roll? Something would come up?
46:00 Speaker 00 Yeah.
46:00 Rich Roll? Yeah.
46:00 Speaker 00 And that's where Marv came in. He stepped right in.
46:03 Rich Roll? Right. So Marv back to, Marv's not gonna let this, you know.
46:07 Speaker 00 I was like.
46:07 Rich Roll? He's invested too much at this point, right?
46:11 Speaker 00 Right.
46:16 Rich Roll? So he calls up his buddies at the Raiders organization and starts to take their temperature about, you know, where you might.
46:23 Speaker 00 Land.
46:23 Rich Roll? Fit. Yeah. Land if you elected to be drafted. And that's what happened, right?
46:30 Speaker 00 Yeah.
46:31 Rich Roll? Uh, and at that time, you were the first sophomore to ever elect to go into the NFL draft?
46:38 Speaker 00 Yeah. I guess. I didn't know it, you know?
46:42 Rich Roll? Is that more, is that more, that's probably more commonplace now, right?
46:46 Speaker 00 Probably. I know it is in basketball.
46:49 Rich Roll? Yeah.
46:49 Speaker 00 Right?
46:49 Rich Roll? Yeah.
46:50 Speaker 00 But I don't know. Uh, I thought, I'm a big fan back in the day of Bernie, Bernie Kosar. I thought he left early, but I think he was just, had one more year. I think he was in junior, yeah.
47:05 Rich Roll? You mentioned basketball. We sort of glossed over basketball.
47:08 Speaker 00 Yeah.
47:08 Rich Roll? Like you could have been a pro basketball player.
47:10 Speaker 00 I, like, in my head, I go, what?
47:13 Rich Roll? I mean, wasn't George Raveling trying to get you to?
47:16 Speaker 00 George was, yeah.
47:17 Rich Roll? Yeah. George has been on the show. Uh, rest in peace, George. He passed away recently, but he was a remarkable person, but he took an interest in you. Yeah.
47:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, it was flattering for sure. I, my plate was super full.
47:32 Speaker 00 But I would have loved to, you know? Probably would have been good for me if I had.
47:37 Rich Roll? I don't know.
47:38 Speaker 00 Kept me busy.
47:39 Rich Roll? Yeah, I mean, that's a whole, it's a, you know, similar but different culture.
47:44 Speaker 00 Yeah.
47:45 Rich Roll? To, who knows what would have happened.
47:47 Speaker 00 Right.
47:47 Rich Roll? Anyway, you go into the draft and you go in the first round of the Raiders. I mean, come on, dude.
47:53 Speaker 00 Right.
47:53 Rich Roll? First round, draft pick, Raiders, and then.
47:58 Speaker 00 They were predicting 10th.
48:00 Rich Roll? Oh, were they?
48:01 Speaker 00 Well, at the beginning, then it got closer and closer and closer, like right before. He could go in the third. It got as high as the third, yeah.
48:10 Rich Roll? It's crazy, man. When you look back on all of this, is it just surreal? Like, your life is so different now. Like, what is your relationship to football and all of that insanity?
48:22 Speaker 00 Then?
48:23 Rich Roll? Yeah, like, when you think back, you know,
48:25 Speaker 00 Now?
48:26 Rich Roll? Being who you are right now, and you reflect back on, like, this period of your life.
48:32 Speaker 00 Um, it's, it's really, when I think back about it, I'm thinking back about it because I'm around others that I did it with.
48:41 Rich Roll? Mm-hmm.
48:42 Speaker 00 And, uh, and then it's really about the relationships. I'm not thinking about any really victorious moments. It was just the guys that I did it with, and usually when I'm thinking about that, I'm laughing with them about it, because it was some really, really good times. Yeah.
49:03 Rich Roll? Yeah. I know that with the book, uh, this has, you know, put you back into the world in a, in a way that, um.
49:12 Speaker 00 Yep.
49:12 Rich Roll? You haven't been in a while.
49:13 Speaker 00 Right.
49:14 Rich Roll? And it's allowed you to come face to face with so many other guys that you played with.
49:18 Speaker 00 Yeah.
49:19 Rich Roll? Seeing your old teammates and buddies.
49:22 Speaker 00 Yeah.
49:23 Rich Roll? It's been good.
49:24 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's been really good. It's probably would be really awkward without them, doing a few of these book signings, yeah.
49:32 Rich Roll? When you're just meeting the general public.
49:34 Speaker 00 Yeah.
49:34 Rich Roll? Yeah, is that, it's awkward for you?
49:36 Speaker 00 A little bit, still, always.
49:39 Rich Roll? What do people ask you when they get to the front of the line and they want their book signed? What are the typical questions?
49:47 Speaker 00 Well, they're either.
49:50 Speaker 00 Trojan fans or Raider fans, sometimes both. But they're just asking to personalize it. And then they'll have a story, maybe, which is cool, you know? Some connection that I've... Because I played a long, played a long time ago. So whatever, it's cool to hear about what's stuck with them all this, you know, all this time that motivates them to come out and do this. So it's, yeah, it's cool to be present with them. Because I've been running, I've been running for, from it for a long time.
50:28 Rich Roll? Right, right. You cannot run your past, man, you know?
50:33 Speaker 00 No, you're getting older too. I can't run at all.
50:35 Rich Roll? When it comes back around, you can either continue to try to run away from it or you can confront it, you know? And sobriety is about confronting it, finding a way to embrace it. And I'm sure whatever in your mind, you know, you were imagining about what it would be like to see those guys, I'm sure it ended up being, you know, a good experience. Like whatever fear or weird emotions you had around it were probably dissipated quickly.
51:05 Speaker 00 Right.
51:05 Rich Roll? Because it was a long time ago, you know?
51:08 Speaker 00 Long time ago.
51:08 Rich Roll? And you were so young.
51:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, that's a trip. Because when I went back to SC4, they do the salute to Troy kickoff the season and they pick a year and it was our 90 year and went back. But you get to see the players without all the armor on, the current players. And it was just astounding.
51:31 Rich Roll? Because you're like, oh, you guys are babies.
51:32 Speaker 00 Yeah.
51:33 Rich Roll? Yeah, yeah.
51:33 Speaker 00 You know, because you see them, of course, in Saturday and they look like warriors, you know, with all their gear. But when you see them stripped of it, it's like I was like, I really... Blew me away that I was just a kid in a big arena.
51:51 Rich Roll? Yeah. So you end up, you end up at the Raiders. This is just gasoline on the fire, right?
51:57 Speaker 00 Oh, goodness.
51:58 Rich Roll? The bad boy culture, the whole thing. You slide right into that and it almost gives you permission to be, to really, you know, put your foot down on the accelerator with all the crazy behavior. Yeah.
52:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, because all my friends at SC are 20 miles away. I'm in Manhattan Beach practicing right, you know, in El Segundo, right there. And Saturdays, the Trojans are playing and then Sundays I'm playing.
52:29 Speaker 00 It was just a, it was a huge party.
52:31 Rich Roll? Yeah. So the volume gets turned up on that.
52:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, drugs.
52:35 Rich Roll? Yeah. Pretty quickly.
52:38 Rich Roll? And you, you, you know, because of proximity to Hollywood, you start finding yourself in, you know, unique situations. Like you're hanging out with Charlie Sheen at his house.
52:49 Speaker 00 They usually, usually came from, because I, probably my most enjoyable thing to do at that time and still is go to shows and music, you know, concerts.
53:04 Rich Roll? Yeah. You were in a band, you were in a band in high school, right?
53:06 Speaker 00 Well, no, later, after the Raiders.
53:08 Rich Roll? Oh, yeah, that's right.
53:09 Speaker 00 Um, Scurvy.
53:11 Rich Roll? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Saw that footage.
53:14 Speaker 00 I just.
53:17 Speaker 00 So I went to a lot of concerts and a lot of backstages and a lot of.
53:22 Rich Roll? Because you got, doors are swinging wide open at this point. Yeah.
53:26 Speaker 00 But I really enjoy seeing live music and I met a lot of people at these live music venues. Yeah. So it was quite the experience for sure.
53:35 Rich Roll? Have you watched the Charlie Sheen Netflix documentary?
53:39 Speaker 00 No, should I?
53:39 Rich Roll? Oh, you should. Yeah, you should. I think you should watch it. Yeah. I mean, it's basically, you know, his version of your story.
53:45 Speaker 00 Yeah.
53:45 Rich Roll? And he's sort of telling it. I mean, he's very different from you, but you know, he's pretty transparent about like everything that happened. And since you were there with him, you know, I don't know. Maybe, I thought maybe you'd take an interest in it. I don't know. But you're also hanging out with Flea. He's not a partier.
54:06 Speaker 00 Oh, no, he's a basketball player.
54:08 Rich Roll? Yeah.
54:08 Speaker 00 And so we played.
54:09 Rich Roll? So you weren't without some good influences.
54:12 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, no. Flea was just a bro. Fun.
54:17 Rich Roll? Was there anyone around you who is trying to, you know, giving you the hard feedback and trying to reel you in?
54:27 Speaker 00 Oh, throughout, for sure.
54:29 Rich Roll? But nobody who, who, who could penetrate your thick skull?
54:33 Speaker 00 No.
54:35 Rich Roll? I know Marcus Allen tried, right?
54:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, Howie and those guys.
54:39 Rich Roll? You just couldn't hear it?
54:40 Speaker 00 No, there was no hearing it. I was on a different frequency.
54:45 Rich Roll? And did the, you know, the consequences are starting to, you know,
54:51 Speaker 00 Sure.
54:52 Rich Roll? rack up a little bit. Is that weighing on you or do you not care? It didn't matter?
54:58 Speaker 00 I was welcoming the hammer coming down.
55:03 Rich Roll? Yeah, this is the self-destructive streak. On some level, like you wanted it to all cave in on you, didn't you? Because you wanted out.
55:10 Speaker 00 Yeah, I didn't want to quit.
55:12 Rich Roll? Yeah, you didn't want to quit, but you desperately wanted to get out of this situation. Yeah. Through success, you created this insane prison that you, that you locked yourself in, right?
55:25 Speaker 00 Because at the height of it, I couldn't stand it. I couldn't stand me or what I did. I wanted so out.
55:34 Rich Roll? Tell me more about that.
55:36 Speaker 00 Oh, it was just, it felt so fake, you know?
55:41 Rich Roll? Because you were playing a character?
55:44 Speaker 00 Yeah. And the payoff wasn't there because I was only, what is it, on a Sunday? You're only out there for an hour and a half or something.
55:55 Rich Roll? Yeah, Howie makes that point in the 30 for 30. He's like, you know, people think of, they look at these athletes and they think their whole, like they just see them perform and they think that's their whole life. And it's like, you know, your life, your football life is this big and your, your life life is this, right? And, you know, most of your life is happening, you know, you know, like off camera. But where is the love of the game in all of this? Had you, had you lost that or are you still able to hold on to that in the midst of wanting out so badly?
56:26 Speaker 00 I always will love it. I mean, it Still love it? Yes. Yeah, I do. Even times when I don't want to like it or love it. I don't, because what is taken from people, but Because of CTE? Hundred percent, yeah. Because that's real. How many of your teammates suffer from that? Well, I've lost more than five off my USC team. Yeah, and closest, closest friend. Five guys who played with USC college football have passed away. What about the Raiders guys?
57:09 Speaker 00 The numbers are, people just don't know, you know? They don't want to broadcast that. Yeah, so it was having that, this going on in my life, losing friends, and my son wanting to play tackle football. Right. Fuck.
57:32 Speaker 00 Life is rigged. Like, you know, God, God's like, all right, here you go. What are you gonna do with this one? You know? All you want to do is get away from football and your son just can't wait to play. Play. Yeah. Oh, and it was hard. But I just said, you're not playing until high school tackle. Because I had a great flag experience of my own and he ended up having one of his own too, which was cool. But I was unsure about this no contact thing and how would he respond to it not having the experience? And he's doing fine. Yeah. How old is he now? Sixteen.
58:17 Speaker 00 Yeah, he's a sophomore.
58:20 Speaker 00 So he's right in the middle of it and But letting him have a childhood. Yeah.
58:28 Speaker 00 Yeah, cuz you know, it's as much as football has given me, it's taken me literally around the world.
58:35 Rich Roll? Yeah.
58:36 Speaker 00 It's violent as fuck. And people are dying.
58:40 Rich Roll? What is the difference between how we perceive it, watching it on television, and what it's like when you're on the field? Like, what does the average person like myself not understand about? Like, how insane or intense it is?
58:56 Speaker 00 When you're- Adrenaline is coursing through my veins like I'm in a fight. Every Saturday or Friday, wherever, whatever day you're playing. And it's a feeling like it's life or death. And that is exciting. But it's scary as hell, too. And knowing that, for me, in my experience, that every 11 guys, their whole objective is to knock me out of the game. And they're all faster than me.
59:25 Rich Roll? Yeah. You're a big guy, but you're not big like those guys.
59:29 Speaker 00 No.
59:30 Rich Roll? Yeah.
59:31 Speaker 00 No. When people do see me, they think, "God, you look smaller." Because I was around huge, huge men. But when they're not around, I'm a pretty big dude.
59:44 Rich Roll? When you were there, what was the culture around, like, performance-enhancing drugs? I mean, obviously, we know, somebody gets injured, they go into the locker room, they go to get cortisone shot, and who knows what else?
59:58 Speaker 00 Right.
59:59 Rich Roll? But was that going on also when you were there?
1:00:02 Speaker 00 The in-game shots?
1:00:04 Rich Roll? Just performance-enhancing drugs in general, like steroid use, you know, like that-
1:00:09 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah, that was going on.
1:00:10 Rich Roll? Yeah. That's going on all over the place, right?
1:00:13 Speaker 00 It's like drugs were going on, but they had their substance abuse policy.
1:00:16 Rich Roll? Right. There's the lip service, and then there's the reality.
1:00:20 Speaker 00 Right.
1:00:21 Rich Roll? Right. Is it still that way?
1:00:23 Speaker 00 I don't know.
1:00:24 Rich Roll? What is your connection to, like, professional football now? Like, do you watch it? Are you connected to, you know, any of the players or the coaches? You're living in Hawaii, living your best life.
1:00:37 Speaker 00 It's when I come back here, I'll watch, but I'm a college football guy, I always have been. And my dad told me that when I asked him, you know, what was, he said, college football. And I didn't, I didn't know then why, until I had my experience, and that was my experience. It's just more.
1:00:56 Rich Roll? Because there's, it's, it's a little more pure.
1:00:59 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:01:00 Rich Roll? Because in pro, these guys are getting transferred all the time. They're worried about job security, like the fans are more allegiance to the team than the players are.
1:01:09 Speaker 00 A lot of the time.
1:01:10 Rich Roll? Because it's a job, right?
1:01:11 Speaker 00 Yeah. And very few guys stay in with one team their whole career, you know?
1:01:16 Rich Roll? So you're on the Raiders, and to me, the most important part of this experience is the 1992 Giants game. This is, you know, the inflection point, as far as I can see it, in terms of your relationship with football. Because your father had always joked that, you know, well, it's not like you're playing the Giants like your whole life. It's not like you're playing the Giants. This was a recurring like joke, right?
1:01:45 Speaker 00 Right.
1:01:46 Rich Roll? And then you call him and you're like, guess what? We're playing the Giants. Which, which is like you're, like the whole dream realized, right? The arc of this whole experience with Marv, your dad, you know, had come to fruition. And here you are, and you were gonna be the starting quarterback for the Raiders, going up against the New York Giants.
1:02:07 Speaker 00 But looking back on it, when he was saying that to me, it did make me feel a little bit better, a little better knowing I wasn't playing the New York Giants.
1:02:16 Rich Roll? Right.
1:02:17 Speaker 00 It kind of brought.
1:02:19 Rich Roll? But then at the same time, it makes the Giants seem like, you know, like this is, you know, they're the absolute apex of, you know, the whole thing.
1:02:26 Speaker 00 Because they had LT still.
1:02:28 Rich Roll? Yeah. LT was playing back then, right?
1:02:29 Speaker 00 Yes. And I got to have him on my left side, because most quarterbacks are right-handed. They want him on their blind side. Me being left, I got, I got to see him all the way back. Not that you want to keep an eye on him, but do you definitely want to keep an eye on him?
1:02:46 Rich Roll? Yeah. So you win this game.
1:02:50 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:02:51 Rich Roll? Yeah. You win this game.
1:02:52 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:02:53 Rich Roll? And here's what I'm getting at. Your dad. Finally gives it up for you. And he's like, I'm so proud of you. Like, you finally get the one thing that you've wanted your entire life, which is just for your dad to look you in the eye and say, I'm proud of you.
1:03:13 Speaker 00 And mean it.
1:03:14 Rich Roll? And mean it.
1:03:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:03:15 Rich Roll? Right?
1:03:16 Speaker 00 And you've exceeded all my expectations. And I just.
1:03:20 Rich Roll? And you got it.
1:03:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:03:22 Rich Roll? And you know what? And once you got it, you're done.
1:03:25 Speaker 00 Right.
1:03:25 Rich Roll? It's like, football's over. There's no, there's no mountain higher to climb. It wouldn't matter if you won the Super Bowl five times in a row, because that's not what was motivating you.
1:03:37 Speaker 00 No.
1:03:37 Rich Roll? Your entire motivation was premised upon getting your father's approval. And most people who have, you know, like, that archetype of a father figure never get it.
1:03:50 Speaker 00 Right.
1:03:50 Rich Roll? Like, you did get it.
1:03:51 Speaker 00 Right.
1:03:52 Rich Roll? But as soon as you got it, you, like, mentally tapped out.
1:03:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:03:56 Rich Roll? You know, a switch was flicked at that point. And, yeah, you know, like, so that was it for you and the Raiders. But, you know, you dabble here and there in football, you know, over the coming years. But, you know, it's not the same.
1:04:09 Speaker 00 No.
1:04:09 Rich Roll? Because that was your source of motivation all along. So when you say, like, oh, I was internally motivated, or, you know, I, you know, I had a championship mindset. Like, I'm sure you did on some level, but the under, like, the foundation of the entire thing was literally just to get your dad to acknowledge that he loved you. You know? Which is insane. Like, that is the human condition.
1:04:37 Speaker 00 Right.
1:04:37 Rich Roll? The whole deal. It's the whole bag.
1:04:39 Speaker 00 Who could relate with that, Rich?
1:04:41 Rich Roll? Right, so.
1:04:42 Speaker 00 A lot.
1:04:43 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:04:43 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:04:44 Rich Roll? So this is where I think everybody, or a lot of people, can find their way into your story. Because they may not know what it's like to be a championship athlete.
1:04:55 Rich Roll? But a lot of people out there are operating out in the world unconscious of just how many of the decisions they're making are based upon like just getting that kind of validation or approval, whether from a parent or somebody else in their life. And all of that wiring gets formed when you're a young child, right? And it just gets locked in. And to me, you can't talk about your addiction story without addressing, you know, it was trauma, you know, it was early childhood trauma that you suffered from.
1:05:35 Rich Roll? And that's a loaded word that maybe might be challenging for you to hear because there is so much love for your dad. But it is true that your dad raised you in a certain way that wired you in that way. And, you know, set the stage for this identity crisis of like not really knowing who you were and really operating entirely for the purpose of like getting his approval, you know? And then getting it and like just to tap out, you know? It's amazing that you kept kind of going back to the well in the AFL and like, you know, all these other kind of like iterations of professional football, some of which were
1:06:20 Rich Roll? motivated by just getting a paycheck. But you couldn't quite cut the ties, you know? You probably should have just like then, back then being like, okay, I'm gonna just, I'm gonna become a painter now.
1:06:32 Speaker 00 Yeah, I definitely didn't jump into, you know, what sparked that was my son Baron being born. I had this fire just ignite inside me that I need to provide. And I was... Scrubbing the bottom of boats in the harbor, I was doing whatever I could. And parent's mom said, well, you love to paint. Like, that's when it started. And I knew, I mean, I only took one semester of painting in college, but I had been doodling and creating my whole life. And I didn't even know it was possible to actually-
1:07:16 Rich Roll? Be like a professional artist.
1:07:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:07:18 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:07:19 Speaker 00 Until I met a friend who was and shattered that belief, you know? Because my dad was an amazing artist.
1:07:29 Rich Roll? Well, this is the other interesting wrinkle, is that your dad is, you know, at heart, an artist also.
1:07:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:07:37 Rich Roll? And grew up in a time when maybe it just, that was just never a possibility-
1:07:42 Speaker 00 Right.
1:07:42 Rich Roll? -for a guy like that, especially if you had prowess in these other areas.
1:07:45 Speaker 00 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:07:48 Rich Roll? And that becomes, you know, this way of reconnecting with him while you're in life. It's really, you know, it's this beautiful kind of full, full circle thing.
1:07:59 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:07:59 Rich Roll? But I think short of Marvin football, like, yeah, you love sports. Yeah, you're good at it. But you are this like sensitive artistic kid. You always, you always have that.
1:08:09 Speaker 00 At the core, yeah.
1:08:10 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:08:11 Speaker 00 And that's why playing that role as a quarterback and a leader, it felt so, it was so hard.
1:08:22 Rich Roll? Because you're, you're like, I'm living somebody else's life. Like, I can do this because I'm talented and I trained really hard and I was raised to do it. But it's so crazy because it was never who you were and you still were better at it than everyone else.
1:08:37 Rich Roll? Right?
1:08:38 Speaker 00 Because I'd really rather just have been a receiver, not opened my mouth ever. Maybe catch a couple touchdowns here and there, win a game, but-
1:08:46 Rich Roll? Yeah, that's the shyness. Like, you, you want, you like the game, but not the attention.
1:08:50 Speaker 00 Yes. But I'd love to compete.
1:08:53 Rich Roll? What is your relationship with competitiveness now?
1:08:57 Speaker 00 It's changed. I had to look at it. Said, is it worth not even being able to finish a pickup basketball game with my friends?
1:09:09 Speaker 00 No. And, and really-
1:09:14 Speaker 00 Is it really good? For the person, you know, for the person, for me? No, I have to keep saying into my head when I'm doing things, no matter what it is, what game it is, Rich, I'm saying it doesn't matter who wins. It doesn't matter who wins.
1:09:28 Rich Roll? So can you play pickup basketball and just enjoy it?
1:09:32 Speaker 00 Yes, completely. But there was a time where I, I had to win. But that came from somewhere else, you know? I don't, I don't know if I had this competitive drive.
1:09:46 Rich Roll? Like naturally?
1:09:47 Speaker 00 Yeah, is it genetic? I think some of it is, but it was definitely environmental for me. There was only one, one way.
1:09:55 Rich Roll? And then as an artist, are you competitive with yourself? Like what is the, what is the internal drive? Is it just the joy of, of, you know, rendering a creative idea into reality? Or, or, you know, what, what motivates you in that, in that role?
1:10:17 Speaker 00 You know, paint is the way that I normally express myself, but it could be with any music and what have you. But with painting, I knew 16 years ago, when I started this deal, that I had to do it. There was no shortcuts. I got to do it every day. And I did it. For the first five years, I did it every day. And you can't spend the time. So the message is you can't spend the time that it takes if you don't love it or you're passionate about it. There's just no way. So let's pick what we're passionate about and do it. Cause it, there's no shortcuts.
1:11:02 Speaker 00 And the more I do it, the more I learn. And I can paint and paint and paint. I'm addicted to color today. It's just a, you know, I'm blown away by it. The more I see, the more art I see, the better. I'm inspired by other artists. And it's who I am and who I've always been is an artist.
1:11:24 Rich Roll? Who are the artists that inspire you?
1:11:26 Speaker 00 Kids, you know, I see it in early, like pre-kindergarten, kindergarten age. It's just.
1:11:36 Rich Roll? Before the internal self-judgment kicks in?
1:11:42 Speaker 00 Exactly. And that's what I'm dealing, I deal with on a regular basis is the critic.
1:11:47 Rich Roll? Right.
1:11:47 Speaker 00 Oh my God. Well, the critic ruins so many good ideas.
1:11:51 Rich Roll? Yeah. You can just get back to that childlike wonder where you're not judging yourself.
1:11:55 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:11:56 Rich Roll? You can be free. Like, this is all a journey towards trying to find freedom for yourself.
1:12:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:12:02 Rich Roll? You know, unburdened by expectations and all of the things that other people have layered on top of you. You know, like, people that don't understand addiction might be confused as to why, after you got your dad's approval, you know, it's like, it's all good.
1:12:20 Speaker 00 Right.
1:12:20 Rich Roll? You keep using? Like, you can't stop using? It gets worse and worse and worse? How many times did you go to rehab? How many times did you try to get sober? How many times have you been arrested? And, you know, rather than like figuring it out, you're like riding around on a skateboard, you know, in Newport Beach, and everyone's staring at you like, what the fuck is wrong with this guy? Like, what happened? Like, he blew it. He had the golden opportunity that anybody would dream of, and he just threw it away. And they can't understand the internal conflict that you're trying to work out, which is that, like, you didn't want any of this to begin with, and you're trying to figure out
1:13:02 Rich Roll? who you are, and nobody will let you do that. And while you're doing this inelegantly, you're getting locked up, and like, all kinds of chaos is happening. You have to deal with the added burden of everybody judging you, like, in a mean-spirited way. Like, people looking, like you say in the documentary, they looked at you with a level of disgust that they wouldn't, that they wouldn't, if it was just a homeless person, right? There's this added layer of like, because you had so much, and you decided to do what you did, it's unforgivable. And so, the shame and the guilt that you're also trying to like,
1:13:46 Rich Roll? work out for yourself, like, it's, you know, in the public eye the entire time. Like, I, you know, I can't imagine how painful that must have been for you.
1:13:59 Speaker 00 I think about it, like, for my mom. Oh, yes. And family and friends, it's just, it's, it's just added.
1:14:10 Speaker 00 The cherry on top of like, how does it get any worse? Well, it gets worse when everybody knows, I guess.
1:14:18 Rich Roll? Meaning?
1:14:20 Speaker 00 The headlines or what have you and really looking and seeing and hearing and being in so many situations with people that are trying to change their life. It's the same, even though everybody, not even everybody knows, just because it's on the news or the paper about me.
1:14:43 Speaker 00 The feeling that I have is the exact same as this person. It's the hopelessness. It's that's just piling on, you know, the damage, the damage is really, you know, the brunt of the feel, if you've already felt the, all the added stuff is just stuff, you know, if that makes any sense.
1:15:05 Rich Roll? Yeah, but the baggage is stacked high.
1:15:09 Speaker 00 Oh, yeah.
1:15:09 Rich Roll? Was there a rock bottom moment?
1:15:14 Speaker 00 There was so, not one that stands out.
1:15:17 Rich Roll? Yeah, there isn't, there isn't one specific one.
1:15:19 Speaker 00 Cause I, I mean.
1:15:21 Rich Roll? I mean, your, your story of recovery is one of relapse and that, that comes with its own, you know, kind of recipe for shame and self defeatism. Like, how many times can you do this and say, this time it's going to be different, only to fail and have to go, you know, I mean, each successive relapse becoming more of a psychic burden than the one that preceded it, that inevitably ends in some level of like hopelessness, like maybe you're never going to be able to crack the code and figure this out.
1:15:53 Speaker 00 Right. And I completely feel that because of my experience with getting knocked down, like really getting knocked down and just getting back up, that's what I do. I continue to keep trying.
1:16:15 Speaker 00 From my perspective, what really, what else can I do? I'm not going to just.
1:16:23 Speaker 00 Lay down and just take it.
1:16:25 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:16:27 Rich Roll? But that sets up the conflict between self-will and surrender.
1:16:33 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:16:34 Rich Roll? Right?
1:16:35 Speaker 00 Right.
1:16:35 Rich Roll? Because the key to this prison that you locked yourself in is in your front pocket all along. And the freedom, the liberation, the childlike wonder liberated from all of the noise is available to you. You just have to make this decision to let go of it all. But as a very willful person who understands hard work and discipline and knows that when you apply yourself to a certain task or goal, that you're going to be able to achieve it.
1:17:08 Speaker 00 Right.
1:17:09 Rich Roll? That's a foreign language.
1:17:11 Speaker 00 I pulled up, I was watching John John Florence with you, and it was surrender. And he talked about letting go.
1:17:22 Speaker 00 It's so counterintuitive, especially for someone, like you said, who's been, I don't like the word programmed, but been taught.
1:17:33 Speaker 00 You know, the harder we just push hard.
1:17:36 Rich Roll? Of course it, yeah.
1:17:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:17:39 Speaker 00 That's how we make things happen.
1:17:43 Speaker 00 But in all reality, it's the opposite. And I know it, and I know it more than anything through sports and through art, which is beautiful to me, because the best things and my best experiences are when I'm not thinking about, I'm not overthinking, I'm just locked into what's going on and I'm operating from here. I can't go wrong when I'm doing that.
1:18:13 Rich Roll? Yeah, there is some shared DNA.
1:18:19 Rich Roll? Between art and athleticism in that when you're painting, you know, a big part of it is getting out of the way.
1:18:27 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:18:27 Rich Roll? So that you can be this open channel.
1:18:29 Speaker 00 Fucking all of it.
1:18:30 Rich Roll? And when you're, you know, when you take the snap, if you're thinking about what you're gonna do, you're toast, right? Like, you have to be in the moment. And, you know, like when John John's talking about, you know, how do I want to feel in this moment? So I can just, I can, I can express myself the best on this wave. It's about getting out of the way. He's like, I know how to surf.
1:18:50 Speaker 00 Right.
1:18:51 Rich Roll? I was like, I don't have to think about it. If I start to have to think about it, like, and if you're thinking about like, where are my receivers? Or what am I doing with my feet? You know, you're not gonna be able to execute. But you do need to be able to put in the work to get to that point, right? So it is this yin yang kind of balance. But the painting is like the portal into this recovery mindset. Because you do have to let go. It's different, like, you can't force a painting.
1:19:22 Speaker 00 I've tried.
1:19:23 Rich Roll? You train, like, you want to be, you know, good at your craft. But, you know, because it's such a gentle and fragile form of expression, the only way you're gonna be able to do your best work is to kind of surrender over to something greater than yourself. And to me, that feels instructive, you know, for your relationship with sobriety.
1:19:45 Speaker 00 And also not being tied to the outcome. Because I like to
1:19:50 Rich Roll? Right.
1:19:50 Speaker 00 Do action.
1:19:51 Rich Roll? And it's subjective. It's not, there's no scorecard. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's in the eye of the beholder. So
1:19:58 Speaker 00 Sure.
1:19:58 Rich Roll? Your relationship with like, did you do a good job? Or is it successful? Is completely different than it is in sports.
1:20:05 Speaker 00 But I'm also still battling with performing at times. You know, because that one
1:20:13 Rich Roll? Is this a true expression of you? Or is this a performance? Oh, that's interesting.
1:20:16 Speaker 00 Yeah. And a lot of it's performance, of course. Where I come from, you know?
1:20:23 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:20:23 Speaker 00 Because I want to get to that place that you're talking about, that isn't Affected, because I know it's there because it comes out in little.
1:20:34 Rich Roll? So, meaning, I want to be a great artist and the only way to be a great artist is to create great works of art, but at the same time, like, I want everybody to know that I'm an artist and that I'm good at this, right? So I can have the gallery show and have people show up and, and, and recognize that I'm not just a football player.
1:20:57 Speaker 00 Well, I'm dealing with, uh, like, a lot of very successful master artists back in the day, warned against having all your eggs in one basket, meaning, having your art, your way of making a living is dangerous.
1:21:14 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:21:14 Speaker 00 And I see why, completely.
1:21:17 Rich Roll? Yeah, because then you're gonna make artistic decisions based upon economics.
1:21:23 Speaker 00 Yep.
1:21:25 Rich Roll? Are you making a living as an artist? Is that you are? I mean, that's incredible.
1:21:29 Speaker 00 Like, it is.
1:21:30 Rich Roll? Very few people can say that.
1:21:31 Speaker 00 Right. My goal, you know, I've got goals in my life and a big one is not have to rely on my art, because I just wouldn't see, see what happens, because I feel there's.
1:21:46 Rich Roll? It's back to the freedom thing. Being, you know, trying to find a way to be free.
1:21:50 Speaker 00 Right.
1:21:51 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:21:52 Speaker 00 Because that's where I want to try to get to.
1:21:55 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:21:57 Rich Roll? The opening quote of the book, you say, "This book is an act of self-love after decades of self-defiance."
1:22:08 Rich Roll? Which is, I mean, you're just, you're kind of dropping the hammer, like, before, you know, you know, anyone even gets into it.
1:22:17 Speaker 00 You can stop, like, right after that thing.
1:22:20 Rich Roll? It kind of says it all.
1:22:21 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:22:23 Rich Roll? Because you've got to find a way to love yourself in order to find freedom and peace. And you had outsourced your source of love to all of these externalities, these performance-like metrics. And then you had to endure the lack of love from the public and find your way forward. Find out who you are, what you stand for, what you care about, what your values are. Who is Todd Marinovich? And how can you love this person who, like all humans, is flawed and has made mistakes that people have a lot of opinions about? Can you feel that?
1:23:07 Rich Roll? I mean, do you feel, are you able to have compassion for yourself?
1:23:13 Speaker 00 I'm getting, I'm improved. There's progress, for sure. There's still a long way to go. Yeah.
1:23:24 Rich Roll? What just came up in your mind?
1:23:26 Speaker 00 Because the first, I was hearing, hearing people say, "Be gentle with yourself." And that one just was like, what the?
1:23:37 Rich Roll? Like enraging?
1:23:38 Speaker 00 Yeah. What? And I, I can do that in spurts, you know? But at first, holy shit, I didn't realize how unkind and violent, you know, I had been to me, you know?
1:23:59 Rich Roll? What does that internal monologue sound like? You had to like say it out loud?
1:24:04 Speaker 00 Shit. It's just, just tearing you down, trying to bring doubt. And that's, doubt is a, doubt creeps in. It's crept in my whole life through my playing to art. I think it's part of learning to deal with that because I think it's all, will always be something that can rear its head. Man, that can be debilitating.
1:24:36 Rich Roll? But you can find those moments of giving yourself that grace?
1:24:42 Speaker 00 Yeah. Yeah. And it's through.
1:24:47 Speaker 00 Countless hours and days lost to beating oneself up.
1:24:55 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:24:55 Speaker 00 You know, I know you've done it and any person struggling with any kind of addiction has done it.
1:25:03 Rich Roll? Yeah. I don't know if this is helpful, but when I, when I look at you and I think about your story, I just see this little kid who wants to be loved and wants his dad to love him and is gonna do all these things to get it. This sensitive, artistic kid who wants to be on the beach and paint and run around, you know, who happens to be gifted, you know, and has, you know, the ability to kind of live up to his father's expectations, but suffered mightily only because nobody ever taught him how to love himself. You know, he just, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't have his emotional needs met as
1:25:48 Rich Roll? a young person.
1:25:49 Speaker 00 Don't you think that is-
1:25:50 Rich Roll? And his suffering is a consequence of that. And when I think of you as a young boy, like, maybe that's a pathway into, you know, finding a way to be softer with yourself. Like, you did everything you had to do to survive, and you did survive.
1:26:08 Speaker 00 That I did.
1:26:09 Rich Roll? In an insane situation. And at the same time, like, struggles with maintaining long-term sobriety, somebody can say to you, like, you have to be, like, you're just a garden variety drug addict and alcoholic. Like, you have to be a worker among workers. And most people, most addicts would be like, well, you don't understand how complicated my life is and my problems are unique. But in your case, they kind of fucking are. Like, you're, like, cause your life is so different, right? So it's very easy for you to say, you don't understand.
1:26:44 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:26:45 Rich Roll? You know? And obviously, that works as a, that becomes a barrier to being able to, like, hear what you need to hear-
1:26:50 Speaker 00 Yep.
1:26:51 Rich Roll? -to grab onto the solution.
1:26:53 Speaker 00 I've heard that, yeah.
1:26:57 Speaker 00 That maybe you're not ready.
1:27:00 Rich Roll? Right. Well, yeah, you go and do a little more research. Yeah. How's the research going?
1:27:05 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, thank you.
1:27:06 Rich Roll? Yeah. Do you have like a circle of sober people that you count on that keep you in check?
1:27:16 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:27:17 Rich Roll? That's good.
1:27:17 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:27:19 Rich Roll? Call you on your bullshit?
1:27:21 Speaker 00 Yeah, I gotta see people.
1:27:22 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:27:23 Speaker 00 They gotta know what I'm doing.
1:27:26 Speaker 00 Otherwise, it's all isolation. And that's the thing what's tricky painting for a living.
1:27:33 Rich Roll? Yes.
1:27:34 Speaker 00 Pretty.
1:27:36 Rich Roll? Isolation is not the friend of the addict and the alcoholic.
1:27:40 Speaker 00 No.
1:27:41 Rich Roll? So I'd be lying if I didn't say that concerns me a little bit about you living in the middle of nowhere, Hawaii. You know what I mean? Like, is this an alcoholic decision? Or is this, you know, a way of finding yourself? And maybe it's both, you know?
1:28:00 Speaker 00 It's been, it's been an amazing journey so far.
1:28:04 Rich Roll? That's good.
1:28:05 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:28:06 Rich Roll? The other thing I think about when I think about your story is the juxtaposition of it on our current culture, which seems to have an obsession with self-optimization. You know, right now, like whether it's wearable devices, or morning routines, or certain types of fitness protocol, like everybody's trying to dial shit up, you know?
1:28:29 Speaker 00 Right.
1:28:30 Rich Roll? And crack the code to how to be like a perfect human in every regard. And this is something you know a little bit about, you know? And you're reporting back from the front lines to say,
1:28:43 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:28:43 Rich Roll? Maybe, maybe this isn't the way to go.
1:28:48 Rich Roll? Like, do you notice that? Like, I don't know what your relationship is with like the internet and like, you know, like Instagram and podcasts and stuff like that. But there's like a whole culture out there of like, you know, this is, you know, if you take these supplements, or you eat this certain way, or here is the, you know, perfect workout routine, and here's how you should start your day. Like, this is your entire childhood, right? Like, you've done the research here.
1:29:14 Speaker 00 And there's more to this whole game of life.
1:29:19 Rich Roll? So what, yeah, like, what do you, what do you want to say?
1:29:22 Speaker 00 Do that?
1:29:23 Rich Roll? The self-optimization obsessed person?
1:29:28 Speaker 00 Well, mine was more directed at the health side.
1:29:32 Rich Roll? Yeah, also, also it was being imposed upon you.
1:29:35 Speaker 00 Right, I was just following along, taking orders, yeah, completely. But I was seeing results, that's why it became easier to see them show up every day because I was getting actual, good things started happening, you know, in my life.
1:29:51 Rich Roll? It's not that any of those things aren't in somebody's self-interest, you know, figure out and practice. It's the, it's the out of balance relationship with all of it.
1:30:03 Speaker 00 Yes, yeah, and I'm seeking balance, you hit it on the head, Rich. I mean, I'm so all or nothing and shit's burning up back here.
1:30:14 Rich Roll? Are you seeking balance? Is that, are you trying to achieve balance? Or are you trying to figure out how to make peace with your extreme disposition? You know what I mean? No, because I think about this a lot.
1:30:29 Speaker 00 Okay.
1:30:30 Rich Roll? You know, like this aspiration to have everything in your life in balance is kind of a fool's errand, I think. You know, the idea that you're one day going to achieve that. I mean, obviously, you have to have things in check.
1:30:44 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:30:46 Rich Roll? But also, you know, if you're in search of like your true self, like you are wired to be extreme. It's just that how do you reel that in or channel it in the direction of healthy things? And, you know, with a, with a level of like self-understanding, you know what I mean? Like, like you're never going to be a guy who's just like balanced. You know, it's just not going to happen, you know, like, sorry.
1:31:13 Speaker 00 You're right.
1:31:14 Rich Roll? But you have, you gotta work with what you have and like make, like not, not be hard on yourself because you can't be as balanced as like your buddy who has a very different history.
1:31:26 Speaker 00 True. Yeah, I'm definitely wired for excitement, we'll call it, adrenaline.
1:31:33 Rich Roll? Sure.
1:31:34 Speaker 00 Because that was flooding through the veins early. It's a juggling act, you know, owning your own business, which is my art and, you know...
1:31:46 Speaker 00 Kids, relationships. See, I'm learning to this whole thing with relationships. I had no real instruction on that. So I'm still learning.
1:31:58 Rich Roll? Yeah, how's that going?
1:31:59 Speaker 00 You know, I'm not in a relationship at the moment and I'm enjoying that. What I found through recovery is I really love people. I'm a fear of people, you know, in fear most of the time.
1:32:20 Rich Roll? When you put this book out, were you afraid of how people would receive you?
1:32:26 Speaker 00 Yeah, no, I was, you know, over that because I went through a long bout with just, people are gonna say what they're gonna say. Yeah, that doesn't, I did it for me. Yeah.
1:32:43 Rich Roll? In this extreme life that you've lived, what are the lessons that you've come away with that you want people who read your book or who are listening or watching right now to understand? Like, what have you learned about life that you want to share?
1:33:03 Speaker 00 That we're all the same. And because of my experience, it just proves to me, and it's like glaring that sports helped me with, it doesn't matter the skin color, I didn't see it in sports. There was no, it was just if you're gonna, you know, be my guy, it doesn't matter. And so without that, I couldn't have gotten to the point of, and then my experience with addiction, it doesn't matter the alcoholic or the freaking heroin addict, there's no difference there.
1:33:43 Speaker 00 And in everything that we do, we're trying to pull apart and be grouped, grouped to create the differences and it's that we are all.
1:33:55 Speaker 00 You know the same and people uh I felt I always felt uncomfortable in the situations of autographs and make it seem like I'm different because you're seeking this and and people are caught up in the whole celebrity thing and it's there's no difference in any of it because I can share when I understand that and can feel that then I can be authentic with everybody. I'm not trying to uh trying to gain anything, you know, with people. And my life is good like that right now. Um I just uh it's simple. It's a real simple
1:34:38 Speaker 00 of a simple life.
1:34:42 Rich Roll? What can you say about perfectionism?
1:34:49 Speaker 00 Oh my goodness. You know what I heard growing up? That practice makes perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. And that is just so insane.
1:35:02 Rich Roll? Say more.
1:35:05 Speaker 00 Did you just hear what I said though?
1:35:07 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:35:07 Speaker 00 Isn't that just it's taking something and just ah and Marv just loved that quote. And that is that's just that's just not okay.
1:35:21 Rich Roll? Perfection is a mirage. It's possible.
1:35:25 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:35:26 Rich Roll? And practice is where you're supposed to work on your weaknesses and try things like it's it's
1:35:31 Speaker 00 Where you make
1:35:32 Rich Roll? It's intended for imperfection.
1:35:34 Speaker 00 Right.
1:35:35 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:35:35 Speaker 00 Cause what I've learned especially in art is my mistakes are my best shit sometimes. Like what surprising like I didn't intend for that to happen. And in athletics, I you know, the losses, I learned stuff and those losses, the wins, uh it was the losses. It was the pain. It was what I didn't want to experience again. They got me hyper focused. Yeah.
1:36:04 Rich Roll? I think perfectionism also, you know, if you're an artist or a creative person, that clenches you up.
1:36:11 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:36:12 Rich Roll? Prevents you from ever completing work or showing it because you're so caught up in how it's going to be perceived. I mean, you kind of got over that. You're like done with how you're perceived. Like you lived a whole life of that, which puts you in a position to create a little bit more freely without the, you know, the chorus of whatever people are going to think about what you're creating.
1:36:34 Speaker 00 Yeah, I don't know if I'm.
1:36:35 Rich Roll? Is that true?
1:36:36 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:36:38 Rich Roll? I just projected that on you.
1:36:40 Speaker 00 Yeah, I'm not there yet.
1:36:42 Rich Roll? Oh, you're still human? One of the other like lessons that you talk about near the end of the book is this idea that discipline without compassion is cruelty.
1:36:55 Speaker 00 Yeah, I, you know what? I'm not a disciplinarian and I found that through my experience with my dogs that I've had and my children. I need work in that area.
1:37:11 Rich Roll? Well, it's a reaction to being over disciplined as a young person. Your pendulum, it just has to swing the other way.
1:37:18 Speaker 00 It has to.
1:37:18 Rich Roll? Yeah. Does that make you soft with your kids too?
1:37:23 Speaker 00 I guess.
1:37:26 Speaker 00 I don't know. I try.
1:37:29 Speaker 00 I don't try to, you know, I, we have all these things, what am I supposed to? How is the dad supposed to, supposed to act in this? But I just, yeah, I had a hard time disciplining, still disciplining them, you know? It's not my greatest suit and life will do that, you know, for them.
1:37:54 Rich Roll? The other big one is realizing that vulnerability is strength. You know, as this quarterback superstar athlete going out on the field, like you can't show any vulnerability, you know, you gotta, you gotta take your punches and never evoke any kind of weakness. And yet, with the most important things in life, including sobriety, the only way to get and maintain sobriety is by having an open relationship with vulnerability, letting people in, being honest.
1:38:29 Speaker 00 Uh huh, which isn't easy. I think that's why I get to practice these things, because otherwise, I just don't show up and I'm vulnerable, you know?
1:38:41 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:38:42 Speaker 00 But I've found real connection, like true, what I'm seeking, because that's really what I'm seeking all these years, is a connection, you know?
1:38:51 Rich Roll? I mean, that's, all humans want that.
1:38:53 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:38:54 Rich Roll? But I think the addict in particular, like that's what they're, they're just, they're looking for it in the wrong places.
1:38:59 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:39:00 Rich Roll? But ultimately, they feel disconnected, they're trying to feel connected, they're using substances to do it, but it's really that sense of
1:39:07 Speaker 00 Me too.
1:39:08 Rich Roll? Feeling other than, or whatever, where you feel like you're not, you know, you're not a part of.
1:39:13 Speaker 00 No.
1:39:14 Rich Roll? That is driving that compulsion. And finding a way to connect with people, obviously, is, you know, the antidote to that, or part of the antidote. But hard when you're a shy kid.
1:39:25 Speaker 00 Super hard. Like my head screaming at me, put down your hand, don't, oh, oh, you know? But I've gotten better, like that's what I'm saying, you know? And there's progress.
1:39:37 Rich Roll? Yeah. I don't know if you've ever gone back and watched that 30 for 30?
1:39:41 Speaker 00 Oh, I have.
1:39:42 Rich Roll? Oh, you have?
1:39:43 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:39:44 Rich Roll? So that was like 15 years ago, right?
1:39:46 Speaker 00 15 years ago.
1:39:47 Rich Roll? So I can't help but wonder, like, when you look back at you then, sharing your story, do you, like, was that guy being honest? Like, is there, are you, have you evolved or changed since then? If you had to do it again, would you, would you, like, what is he saying? He's, he's full of shit there. Like, is he painting a rosy picture? Like, what is the difference between you now and that guy 15 years ago telling the story?
1:40:14 Rich Roll? Because there was a lot, there's a lot of miles, you know, on the chassis since that.
1:40:19 Speaker 00 And you know what? We've been shooting this whole time.
1:40:22 Rich Roll? Oh, really? So there's gonna be, there's another one?
1:40:26 Speaker 00 Mm-hmm.
1:40:26 Rich Roll? Oh, wow.
1:40:27 Speaker 00 Yeah, 12 years in the making.
1:40:29 Rich Roll? Like a documentary or a 30 for, like what, in what form?
1:40:33 Speaker 00 Episodial.
1:40:34 Rich Roll? Oh, wow.
1:40:35 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:40:35 Rich Roll? Like a limited series?
1:40:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:40:38 Rich Roll? That's interesting.
1:40:39 Speaker 00 Because that's when I met Sean was, uh, right when I finished the 30 for 30. And he started filming right after that.
1:40:47 Rich Roll? Oh, that's wild.
1:40:48 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:40:49 Rich Roll? So what is the, like, if you had to put your finger on Todd now versus Todd? Like, when you see that guy 15 years ago, sharing a story, like, what, what comes up for you? Or what's changed?
1:41:01 Speaker 00 I'm getting older.
1:41:02 Rich Roll? Yeah, well, other than the obvious, dude, come on. But, like, were you, were you being honest then?
1:41:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:41:10 Rich Roll? Yeah?
1:41:11 Speaker 00 Yeah, as honest as I knew.
1:41:14 Rich Roll? I mean, it felt like it.
1:41:15 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:41:15 Rich Roll? You know, it felt like it. You weren't done yet, though.
1:41:18 Speaker 00 No.
1:41:19 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:41:20 Speaker 00 No, gosh, it has just begun, this, uh, recovery. It's just, I'm going.
1:41:28 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:41:29 Speaker 00 Because, you know, my whole life, I've trained for a season or then an event. It's always, well, I'm getting ready for-
1:41:36 Rich Roll? There's a destination.
1:41:37 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:41:38 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:41:38 Speaker 00 And with recovery, I've always, uh, it's not a race, Todd. And I come out just, you know, wanting to get well.
1:41:50 Speaker 00 And nothing's wrong with that, but my pattern has been, it's, it's what you, you know, a marathon or three marathons, it's more than I can even-
1:42:00 Rich Roll? No, you're never not running. You're like, you know, it's like, it's, there is no, it's not a race, but, you know, you're still in it and it's never over.
1:42:10 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:42:11 Rich Roll? Like, right?
1:42:12 Speaker 00 Right. That's, I haven't heard that, that's, nails it.
1:42:17 Rich Roll? What is it that, uh, you're working on now that's coming up for you? Like, in your, in your recovery program?
1:42:26 Speaker 00 When things get busy, like they are, um, I start believing-
1:42:33 Speaker 00 That I know best.
1:42:35 Rich Roll? You're in control.
1:42:36 Speaker 00 Yeah, and it's so, God, I know I'm not.
1:42:39 Rich Roll? I mean, that's, that's an intoxicant.
1:42:41 Speaker 00 Mm hmm. Yeah. And so these are, it's dangerous when I'm getting any type of that, boys. You know?
1:42:54 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:42:56 Speaker 00 For real.
1:42:57 Rich Roll? So what do you do to make sure that you're not letting that go to your ego too much?
1:43:05 Speaker 00 Help somebody. And there's so much to do where I live. It's endless in that, you know, area.
1:43:14 Rich Roll? Is that part of the appeal for you?
1:43:17 Speaker 00 The area to that?
1:43:19 Rich Roll? The people and the opportunity for you to be of service.
1:43:22 Speaker 00 Yeah, it's just, I've fallen in love with the people and where they come from. I'm a lifer there.
1:43:33 Rich Roll? What is the message that you want to share to the person out there who is, is in it right now, like in the throes?
1:43:45 Speaker 00 There's a way out.
1:43:46 Rich Roll? Of feel stuck.
1:43:47 Speaker 00 That's the cool thing about it. There is a way out, you know? But you're not gonna like it.
1:43:56 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:43:58 Speaker 00 But that's the deal. There is a way out.
1:44:01 Rich Roll? What's the, what's the first step? What's the suggestion?
1:44:04 Speaker 00 Oh, it's the surrender. So I can't do it. I can't do this. And I've, I've been at that. I've been there. And it's a beautiful thing when you're out of ideas. Cause I, that's, that's, that's where everything goes wrong, you know? It's, I come up with an idea.
1:44:32 Rich Roll? In between, in between the ears.
1:44:33 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:44:34 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:44:34 Speaker 00 So, you know, I have, like you said, do I have people in my life? Yes, I do. And I bounce things off them. Is this, how's this sound? And it's.
1:44:43 Rich Roll? Check your decisions.
1:44:44 Speaker 00 It's really important for me to do that. Cause it sounds good in here until I say it. And then I even go, whoa.
1:44:54 Rich Roll? I'm trying to imagine what it's like inside your head. Cause that's why I thought so. So I'm thinking, oh, well, this, when this guy's on the football field, granted, long time ago.
1:45:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:45:06 Rich Roll? But you're a guy who, who could trust your instincts. Like your instincts were spot on, right? And nobody had instincts like you. The coach didn't even have the instincts that you had. And so that's going to obviously like fuel your ego. Like I'm in charge, I know what to do. But then later in life, life's off the rails. Like maybe my instincts aren't so good. You know, I've made all these bad choices. Can I trust my thinking? Can I trust my decisions? And the contrast between having this insane instinct for what to do as an athlete versus your inability to have the right instinct when it comes to making like life decisions.
1:45:50 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:45:50 Rich Roll? You know?
1:45:51 Speaker 00 Yes.
1:45:53 Speaker 00 A hundred percent.
1:45:54 Rich Roll? All of which you can then use to form the argument that you're different than everyone else. And like, nobody understands your problems. Right?
1:46:01 Speaker 00 Right.
1:46:02 Rich Roll? This is the, the, the pretzel of the mind when it comes to the mental gymnastics of trying to get your head around like the tools of recovery.
1:46:14 Speaker 00 And I saw a bumper sticker once that said, uh, like a living nightmare is believing what you think. And I just went, whoa, whoa. Because I do that. Just because I think it, I think it's true. That's, it's not always true.
1:46:33 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:46:34 Speaker 00 Most of the time it's not.
1:46:37 Rich Roll? There is help out there. There is hope.
1:46:39 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:46:40 Rich Roll? Sure you get people messaging you on social media. Hey, what do I do? My answer is always the same. And it's like, go to a, it's like, isn't it the obvious that like, why don't you, well, why don't you go to an AA meeting and, you know, like, set aside whatever your ideas are. And it's like, has this never occurred to this person? Or they, they just need somebody to like, tell them to do it. I don't know. You know?
1:47:02 Speaker 00 And especially, uh, well, since I've been in Hawaii, a lot of people don't even know that it even exists, which, which is crazy to me because I was forced to go when I was 21. But yeah, even. Even in today's world, the people don't know recovery exists, which they I'm here to say, yes, it exists all over the world.
1:47:26 Rich Roll? That's why I think your message is vital and so important. It's the extreme aspects of your life that make it titillating or interesting to people. But the core message of what you're trying to convey is that there is help available. And no matter how far down the path you've gone, that there is another way and there is help. I mean, by opening the book with you injecting your jugular vein with like, I mean, it's like, that's, you know, that's the most extreme case of drug addiction you're gonna, you're gonna come across. It's incredibly powerful. And if you could come back from that and build a life and have a relationship with your kids
1:48:07 Rich Roll? and pursue a career doing something that you love, like that's incredibly inspirational. And it has nothing to do with football.
1:48:16 Speaker 00 Right.
1:48:16 Rich Roll? Or being an athlete.
1:48:17 Speaker 00 Right.
1:48:18 Rich Roll? And it's cool, man. I'm glad you wrote the book. It's a, it's an act of public service. You know, there are a lot of people out there suffering in silence.
1:48:25 Speaker 00 Right.
1:48:26 Rich Roll? So I'm always trying to, you know, model a path out of that. And that's why I've chosen to be so open in how I speak about these issues. Because, you know, shame is part of the disease and it keeps us stuck and quiet.
1:48:44 Speaker 00 Right.
1:48:44 Rich Roll? And small and it's pernicious, man, you know? Shame's at the root of all of it. And, you know, I know shame is something you're deeply acquainted with and it's a killer.
1:48:58 Speaker 00 Absolutely. As much as I sometimes cringe at either doing an interview or speaking, I've, you know, spoken to a lot of high schools over the years. It's my duty from what I've lived through to share my experience 100%. And
1:49:19 Speaker 00 You know, I hope I can connect with one, you know? Because I do know what it's like.
1:49:27 Rich Roll? It's a very human and relatable story in that you're essentially trying to find yourself.
1:49:32 Speaker 00 And I'm still trying.
1:49:33 Rich Roll? Yeah, like we're all doing.
1:49:35 Speaker 00 Yeah.
1:49:35 Rich Roll? You're in the ultra marathon, right? And, you know, we live in an insane world and we're all trying to reclaim our humanity, amidst all of these distortions that lead us astray and hijack our decision-making and, you know, distract us and addict us in various ways.
1:49:55 Speaker 00 Right.
1:49:56 Rich Roll? And, you know, because your story is so palpable, it has the power to really impact people in a potent way. And so, thanks for writing it.
1:50:03 Speaker 00 Thank you.
1:50:04 Rich Roll? And thanks for being here today, dude.
1:50:06 Speaker 00 Thanks for having me.
1:50:07 Rich Roll? I appreciate it, man.
1:50:08 Speaker 00 I enjoyed it.
1:50:14 Rich Roll? All right, everybody, that's it for today. Thank you so much for listening. I really do hope that you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guest, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit today's episode page at richroll.com, where you will find the entire podcast archive, as well as my books, Finding Ultra, The Voicing Change series, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is free, actually. All you've got to do is subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review or drop a comment. Sharing your show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome as well and extremely helpful, so thank you in advance for that.
1:50:58 Rich Roll? In addition, I'd like to thank all of our amazing sponsors, without whom this show just would not be possible, or at least, you know, not free. To check out all their amazing product offerings and listener discounts, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, along with associate producer Desmond Lowe. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music, as always, was created all the way back in 2012 by my
1:51:42 Rich Roll? stepsons Tyler and Trapper Pyatt, along with their cousin, Harry Mathis.
1:51:48 Rich Roll? Appreciate the love, love the support, and I'll see you back here soon. Peace. Plants.
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