Ignite Your Evolution: Hakim Tafari is a Master of Mindfulness, Curator of Culture, & The Journeyman of Reinvention

Hakim Tafari is a journeyman of reinvention, master of mindfulness, and martial arts practitioner. This conversation explores Hakim’s philosophy of surrender as a superpower and his “Sure Hearts Release” practice for personal transformation. We discuss his unique blend of street culture and ancient wisdom, from Tai Chi to running, and how mindful movement can revolutionize our approach to life. He shares transformative experiences running ancient Mexican trails and summiting Mount Asahi in Japan—both of which catalyze profound personal growth. Hakim is a true mindfulness maestro. This conversation is pure inspiration. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: On: Swiss engineering at it’s finest, On crafts high-performance shoes and apparel crafted for comfort and style 👉on.com/richroll Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF your first purchase 👉gobrewing.com Momentous: Save 20% OFF all of my favorite products & more 👉livemomentous.com/richroll Birch: For 25% off ALL mattresses and 2 free eco-rest pillows👉BirchLiving.com/richroll Roka: Unlock 20% OFF your order with code RICHROLL 👉ROKA.com/RICHROLL Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors 👉 richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Hakim Tafari?

  I got to see my life in 4K in front of me. It's already been written in the tapestry of the universe. We're just too blind sometimes to see it. And I realized my life can be taken just like that.

• 1:23Rich Roll?

  How come Taferi's life reads like a masterclass in continuous reinvention? A man difficult to define, Hak is a Buddhist Dharma practitioner. He is a master of mindfulness movement and meaning. He's a teacher and practitioner of meditation and Tai Chi and Kung Fu.

• 1:43Hakim Tafari?

  The Tai Chi is a mindful movement. The Qigong is a mindful movement. The running is a mindful movement. All these things are a way of showing you how to find true sense of liberation and inner freedom.

• 1:57Rich Roll?

  He's a mountaineer, he's an herbalist, he's a DJ, he's a runner and a curator of culture, which is all a long way of saying that Hock is a seeker of wisdom. Wisdom he today shares in my friend's second appearance on the show, which is a deeply nourishing conversation exploring the beauty of suffering, the power of inviting discomfort into your life, and the potential that resides within all of us to transcend our circumstances and actively transform our lives wholesale.

• 2:29Hakim Tafari?

  I've surrendered to the fact that I want to live a certain lifestyle. To me, surrender is almost like a superpower. You have to break shit down, you have to dismantle, you have to destroy all misnomers. I want to be my ancestors' wildest dreams. What are you trying to do?

• 2:51Rich Roll?

  Good to see you, my friend. I'm so grateful to have you back here.

• 2:54Hakim Tafari?

  Thank you for having me. Good to see you too, man.

• 2:56Rich Roll?

  And thank you for this gift, this hand painted. I mean, I've seen these symbols of...

• 3:05Hakim Tafari?

  The circle.

• 3:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I don't know a lot about what they represent, or what they're called, or what this art form is of, you know, painting these.

• 3:16Hakim Tafari?

  So...

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  I should hold that up.

• 3:17Hakim Tafari?

  They're based upon a Zen Buddhist practice. They're called Enzos. And it's, as I said, they're based upon a Zen Buddhist practice where the practitioner basically gets the brush and within one breath stroke creates the circle. And you end up making, you know, whether it be five, six, a dozen, a hundred, but it's part of a meditation practice. And what you're doing is, is basically just breathing into the brush and the brush becomes your... Kind of stroke becomes your weapon of choice.

• 3:58Rich Roll?

  And everyone is unique, of course.

• 4:01Hakim Tafari?

  And everyone is unique.

• 4:03Rich Roll?

  But the circle's never quite complete. It always ends right before you complete the circle. What is the idea behind that?

• 4:10Hakim Tafari?

  Um, you know, I think every, every Enzo artist is different. You have some that are fully complete. And then you have some, which is like, you do that breath and it's like a quick whisk. And you see that brush stroke.

• 4:26Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 4:26Hakim Tafari?

  And as you said, everyone is different. I think it represents the completeness and the incompleteness of life. There's a fullness and a void that, that encapsulates the Enzo. So every artist is different, the way they paint their Enzos. Sometimes I might be in a mood where I want to do the full stroke and the full circle. And then there's times when I'm like, no, just let me just do a little whisk and cut that end off. So everyone is different. Yeah, everyone is different.

• 5:03Rich Roll?

  And the reflection that I'm supposed to have when I gaze into this on my wall or on my meditation altar.

• 5:12Hakim Tafari?

  I'm, I'm hoping that it brings you peace and calmness. When you look at that, you can see the, the beauty in your own life.

• 5:24Rich Roll?

  That's a tough one.

• 5:25Hakim Tafari?

  Hmm.

• 5:26Rich Roll?

  For me, sometimes. The critic is loud. You know what I mean?

• 5:32Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, it can be. But I think, you know, one of the things that I've been really playing with and really enjoying is surrendering. That concept of surrendering. And it was something that for many years, it was tough for me to do. And as I've gotten older and as I've learned to soften my heart, I've really learned how to surrender. You know, as you talk about that and, and you're like, yeah, I don't know if I can do that. How much of it is you not surrendering?

• 6:05Rich Roll?

  Oh, most of it, all of it, probably, right?

• 6:09Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 6:10Rich Roll?

  And whatever part isn't about that could probably be solved through a deeper form of surrender.

• 6:17Hakim Tafari?

  Hmm.

• 6:18Rich Roll?

  Because if you're truly letting go, then there's no space for that cackle.

• 6:25Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 6:27Rich Roll?

  But liberation is hard.

• 6:31Rich Roll?

  It's a fucking beast, isn't it?

• 6:33Hakim Tafari?

  It really is. It really is.

• 6:36Rich Roll?

  So when you say you're focusing on surrender, what is the brass tacks of that practice?

• 6:46Hakim Tafari?

  Hmm. You know, the aspect of letting go, the aspect of dismantling old habits. You know, for me, I've really worked hard in these last few years on really letting go and dismantling and just getting rid of what doesn't service me. And surrendering is that. What is not servicing you, you gotta let it go. And I think I go through modes where I'm just like, I need to get rid of this. I need to get rid of that, whether it be physically or mentally or spiritually. And it's becoming part of my muscle memory now

• 7:27Hakim Tafari?

  because I'm realizing that it's lightening up my load in so many ways that I could even possibly imagine. It's lightening up my load and it's making things a lot more easier and clearer for me. The more I can let go, the more. And you know, I said this in the last time we were here, you know, holding that backpack and just being able to let go. But it's really true. And in that surrender, I think for so many of us, and especially for men, there's a kind of, they equate surrendering with weakness. And to me, surrender is almost like a superpower. Takes a lot.

• 8:10Rich Roll?

  It's also an act of courage because it's forcing you to confront yourself in an honest way and make peace with the fact that you're not the all-powerful, in-control being that you would like to believe that you are, right? You have to disabuse yourself of that delusion.

• 8:30Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 8:31Rich Roll?

  And that's very threatening to the ego and it requires courage. So it's actually the antithesis of weakness. Weakness is going about your way and never turning the gaze inward to deconstruct that illusion.

• 8:46Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 8:47Rich Roll?

  But it's a leap. It's a leap for a lot of people. If you tell somebody, "The solution to your problem is to let go," that immediately gets interpreted as waving the flag of defeat. When all of our instincts and every kind of input over the course of our lives is telling us to like, "Push, push, push." And if you're strong enough, or you can summon the will, you'll be able to solve the problem that way. And that's the gift of, you know, having experienced a life crisis, be it existential or with substances or some form of addiction, is that you're forced to confront that and

• 9:31Rich Roll?

  then you kind of find your way to the other side and realize the power of surrender and how it's very different than what you might imagine, have imagined it to be.

• 9:42Hakim Tafari?

  For sure. You know, one of which for me was a big one, was alcohol. That was a big one. I think I'm going on maybe two and a half, two and a half years now where I haven't touched it. And that was a big one for me because I would somewhat lean on it to... Once I realized that I didn't need alcohol in my life anymore and just got rid of it... Things started becoming a lot more clearer for me. And I know it sounds cliche and a lot of people are like, oh my God, I got rid of alcohol and I got rid of drugs. And it became more mystical and clear. But something did essentially happen for me when I gave up alcohol.

• 10:26Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 10:27Hakim Tafari?

  And then being in establishments and being in areas where I saw my friends drinking and seeing what they were doing when they drunk too much or how they would act. And being in those environments. That in itself was a game changer for me in letting go, in surrendering. Because I had to surrender a certain type of lifestyle that I was used to for so many years and certain people that I was used to for certain years and letting that go. And then, you know, just other little things in my life and facets where I was just like,

• 11:09Hakim Tafari?

  I, that's not servicing me anymore. This is not servicing me anymore.

• 11:14Rich Roll?

  What's interesting about that is that this decision to give up alcohol came in the aftermath of many years of spiritual practice and deep connection with ideas like surrender and, you know, being present and all of that. For most people, giving up alcohol is their introduction to these ideas, which are new and foreign. But you're somebody who is, you know, pretty expert in all of that. And yet alcohol confronted you with a new level of what that might mean. That's interesting.

• 11:51Hakim Tafari?

  I think I was toeing the line. I've never been somebody who is extreme with alcohol. But I think during the pandemic and, and, and things that were going on through the pandemic. And keep in mind, I was still somewhat working during the pandemic too. I was still working a nine to five. So there was that stuff that was going on with my family. I would look at it as me being like, yeah, well, you know, I'm becoming a connoisseur of Japanese whiskey. And, you know, you know, I'm, you know, I like that one. So I'm just going to keep on. And I would, I would use that as an excuse to be, you know, let me try out this one tonight. Let me try out this one tonight. And I realized that I was drinking more.

• 12:39Hakim Tafari?

  Almost using that more so than my own meditation practice. And, and, and I don't know what it was, but something, something one day woke me up and I was like, what are you getting from this? What are you really honestly getting from this? And as you said, I meditate, I do Vipassanas. You know, if there's anyone who should know about this, it should be me. But still, I'm, I'm still kind of leaning that on a crack. And then one day I woke up and I was like,

• 13:09Hakim Tafari?

  yeah, I should know better. I do know better.

• 13:13Rich Roll?

  Well, this in a nutshell is the good news and the bad news about pursuing a spiritual path. Is it not right? Because on the one hand, you can't buy into your own bullshit anymore. You know, once you've progressed to a certain point, you're able to see through your own nonsense. And you have this compulsion to call yourself on it, right? Which is, that's the engine of growth, of course. But that means that you have to keep giving up things that you like to do. I mean, listen, we all have things that,

• 13:43Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 13:43Rich Roll?

  that we rely upon to distract ourselves from whatever it is we don't want to feel in whatever moment we find ourselves in. And it can be the phone, it can be alcohol, it can be anything, right? But for someone like yourself who is, you know, mature on their, on their spiritual path, I'm sure you're like, when you encounter a dissonance, I mean, there's always another layer to peel, right? You're going to be peeling that onion until you die.

• 14:10Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 14:11Rich Roll?

  And at some point you're like, really? I have to give this up too? I've already done this, this, this, and this. Like, don't I get to graduate? Like, can I coast for a little bit? Just like five minutes?

• 14:21Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 14:22Rich Roll?

  No, you can't.

• 14:23Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah. You know, I consider myself a, a, a householder, but I still have those monk type qualities. And

• 14:34Hakim Tafari?

  For me, it's this really just following that middle path, man. Knowing how to keep things in balance. Really just knowing how to keep things in balance. And I knew that what I was doing with the alcohol was definitely, the balance wasn't there with the running and the mindfulness and everything else. And then finding myself leaning to this whiskey or that whiskey just to soothe my whatever was going on. Yeah, I realized when you get to a certain point, you know, there's this thing called the eightfold path that most Buddhists really succumb to.

• 15:19Hakim Tafari?

  And they say that, you know, within the wheel, there's eight spokes. And the minute that you take one of those spokes out, the wheel becomes.

• 15:27Rich Roll?

  Unstable.

• 15:28Hakim Tafari?

  Exactly. And, you know, there's a certain thing within the eightfold path, which is sila, moral conduct. And alcohol is part of that. And I looked at that. And I just, as I said, you know, for me, seeing folks around me, especially in run crew culture too, like alcohol is prevalent. You start seeing folks doing things, you know, after a 26 mile race or 50 mile race or 100, and the alcohol starts coming. And then you just start seeing folks doing shit that. Why are you doing that? Why are you?

• 16:13Hakim Tafari?

  And I started seeing a lot of this happen around with a lot of friends, associates, acquaintances and stuff like that. And I just, for myself, there's a moral conduct, there's a moral compass I have in my own self. And, you know, coming to this level where I'm 50 now, the way I move and navigate through life really means something to me.

• 16:39Hakim Tafari?

  And again, where surrendering comes in, I've surrendered to the fact that I want to live a certain lifestyle. I want to live a very simple, peaceful life with my partner. I get to do what I need to do. I get to run. I get to paint. I get to play music. I want to live a very simple life. So, again, what is not servicing me, I'm going to put that away. And I think for me, this has really been the big thing for me, especially turning 50. Like, coming into my 50 was like, the biggest epiphany, like, if I want to have, if I really want to train like a superhero, if I really want to bring my mindfulness

• 17:23Hakim Tafari?

  to a sharper key and to a sharper level, then there are things that I need to get rid of.

• 17:28Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 17:29Hakim Tafari?

  There are things that are not going to service me. And there are things that I need to build on that are going to service me into making me a better person.

• 17:37Rich Roll?

  Before the podcast, I was asking you about your Run Crew activities, and you told me that you've kind of stepped back from that world for a bit, which is interesting because you're, you're like the Run Crew dude. You're, you're like the curator of running culture, you know, bombing the streets with giant groups of people. And I think, on some level, the reason, the reason why you've taken a step back is not unrelated to what you just shared.

• 18:07Hakim Tafari?

  Hmm.

• 18:09Rich Roll?

  Not the drinking part, but more the inner reflective part. And, and also, this idea, you were sharing a little bit about how subcultures can create identities that then become an impediment to the growth that awaits, right? So the thing that was the accelerator of your growth has a shelf life, right? Before, it's kind of time to step up and reimagine yourself once again. And you see people who kind of get stuck because they've had such a positive experience and it has helped them and. Positive ways, but then it becomes a barrier. Like you stay there because you're affirmed and that's your community. And there's a lot of good things about that.

• 18:54Rich Roll?

  I'm not disparaging that in any way, but, but I think it then becomes incumbent for somebody who is so committed to a spiritual path and this trajectory of growth that you then have to extract yourself out of that or run the risk of, of, of doing that very thing, which is getting stuck.

• 19:13Hakim Tafari?

  I mean, you know, and it was so funny because I didn't really think about it in its totality until you just made it in 4K, until you just showed it to me and it, yeah, I think it has a big, a big time aspect to why I may not be as deep in that culture as I was before. And I think, I'll be honest with you, you know, I was several years ago, eight, 30, nine o'clock, I was running the streets and it was like, I wasn't getting home till like 10, 10:30, 11 o'clock, you know, not going to bed till one o'clock. I'm watching Marvel superhero cartoons at nine o'clock at night.

• 19:54Hakim Tafari?

  I'm watching old reruns of stuff with my girl and our kid. That's what I'm doing. I don't, you know, that life is not for me anymore. Will I go out and do it every now and again? Yeah. But, yeah, I think for me, there was something great about, I found family in run crew culture. Something that was really, I didn't have that coming up in my formative years, feeling like I had a family, feeling like I had that, people who had my back and the best interest and so forth. And you said something that was really key. I've seen individuals in run crew culture, that's all they know.

• 20:40Hakim Tafari?

  That's all they do.

• 20:43Hakim Tafari?

  Is run marathons, you know, be about that culture, showing up in Berlin, showing up in New York, showing up in Tokyo, being of this caliber. You know, I gotta run, you know, the sub three or I've gotta run, you know, sub three thirty. I gotta show my face in Boston, yada, yada. And I'm not disparaging any, I love run crew culture. Run crew culture is what made me. Um, some of my best friends and family are in run crew culture. But I think there is a maturation. There is a metamorphosis and there's an evolution.

• 21:20Hakim Tafari?

  And I think you're seeing a lot of folks who came from road running now moving really deeply in the trails. Because there's no, you have to be at this time. There's no, you've got to look a certain way. You've got to be in this super shoe or that super shoe. You go on the trail, the trail is gonna humble you. The trail, the trail is gonna show you the way. And especially with the rise and really the beautiful, the beautiful aspect of plant medicine and being able to explore microdosing and going into the wilderness and really being in nature and being in that.

• 22:02Hakim Tafari?

  I think there's something very beautiful and ethereal and spiritual about that. And I think that more folks now are leaning more towards that because there's a lot less judgment. There's a lot more playfulness in the trail. There's a lot more finding yourself and insights in the trail. Not to say that you're not gonna find insights when you're running, you know, twenty four, you know, thirty miles on the street. But there's a difference in that when you're in the trail, you're in the mountain. And that was one of the things that I learned when I went to Oaxaca and Chiapas all those years back.

• 22:44Hakim Tafari?

  Um, running through Jackson Hole, you know, even running here, you know, running in Malibu or, um, you know, running Kenneth Hahn, there is something very.

• 22:57Hakim Tafari?

  Mistical and you know, I use this word a lot when I have these very intense spiritual things, but auspicious and not to sidetrack, but you know, I had the pleasure of taking some young kids into the mountains early this year, city kids who have never really been into the mountains. And for these young black and brown kids to see, to go up and hike these mountains and to see just the whole of LA and to see, you know, Dodger Stadium, to see Pasadena, the Mount of Pasadena and to see their faces.

• 23:39Hakim Tafari?

  It just brought me, it made my heart smile because these are kids that are used to the block. These are kids that are used to, you know, whatever gangs are active in their areas. They're not used to seeing sights like this. So again, wild road running is cool and road running is, is great. I think there's so much more of the world to see out there. And really, I think that you're seeing a lot of folks kind of moving from that and moving into ultras and moving into going in the trails because there's such a playfulness, a way to feel that liberation.

• 24:17Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 24:18Hakim Tafari?

  And not get judged for a certain time or looking a certain way. Again, I love run crew culture.

• 24:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I get it. I get it. I think the human animal will find a way to trap itself no matter what. So the quest to run sub three in the marathon gets replaced with the trail version, which is, well, I'm going to do a 50K and now I'm going to do a 50 mile and I'm going to do a hundred mile. So it's like, you can find that in anything, but I think your point remains true, which is in nature, you are liberating yourself from a lot of those kind of etiquette driven metrics and kind of expectations that come with like road running culture. And obviously like nature is going to deliver a different kind of frequency in terms of that's going to, you know, kind of maybe open you up in a new and unique way.

• 25:09Rich Roll?

  And I love that you took those kids up there. While you were sharing that story, I was thinking about. Tom Shadyak, who was in here the other week, the filmmaker who moved to Memphis and opened Memphis Rocks.

• 25:21Hakim Tafari?

  Ah, yes.

• 25:22Rich Roll?

  I had the occasion to meet some of the kids that he and that community have introduced to the outdoors. And some of these young people have gone on to go on pretty serious expeditions to very big mountains. And the life-changing kind of opportunity that that is giving to kids who live in the poorest zip code in America, basically.

• 25:49Hakim Tafari?

  I was just at the Outside Festival. And I so happened to be with this guy named Malik Damashin. Malik is a filmmaker who came out of Memphis, and he was part of the Black Ice. I think he was one of the moving parts of Black Ice. And for anybody who doesn't know.

• 26:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know who you're talking about. Go ahead, though.

• 26:10Hakim Tafari?

  So Black Ice is a story of, basically, these folks from Memphis who team up with North Face, and they learn how to climb ice. And a lot of these folks come from the inner cities of Memphis. And I got to hear Malik's story, and Malik is very close to one of our mutual friends, Conrad, Conrad Anker and Jimmy Chin. He's had a lot of experience with Conrad going on some of these really wild, crazy adventures.

• 26:42Rich Roll?

  Like Norland.

• 26:43Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah. And Malik made the remark, Conrad would just say, "Just don't die. Just don't die." But something very similar, he said to me when we went on the summit. When I hear Malik's story, when he's talking about, he came up in home, crack addict homes, seeing friends shoot, having friends who just had their younger brother or sister shot, being in these environments, not knowing whether you're gonna make it the next day, to then being in the wilderness and seeing a warthog for the first time.

• 27:27Hakim Tafari?

  How impactful that is. Even myself, I think about... I really, you know, I was very scared of going into the outside space because I didn't really feel like it was really for me. And, you know, being in Oaxaca, you know, being in Chiapas really changed my life. You know, being in Zapatista held, you know, um, rainforest encampments and running through those trails was something very mystic to me, but was so liberating because I'd never seen anything like that before. And I didn't think that I was allowed to be in spaces like that.

• 28:12Hakim Tafari?

  So, you know, when you hear stories of Memphis Rocks and the stuff that Conrad and homie from Free Solo, Alex.

• 28:21Rich Roll?

  Alex.

• 28:21Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, so, so Alex is always there in Memphis. Just to see the stuff that they're doing with kids that have never seen, you know, a boulder, let alone how to boulder, you know, and climbing ice is, is really just, again, I think it just gives you a perspective. It gives you just a real perspective on life and the privilege that some of us have.

• 28:51Rich Roll?

  Are you still part of that North Face Council?

• 28:54Hakim Tafari?

  Explorer Fund Council?

• 28:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 28:57Hakim Tafari?

  I mean, I'm still in with the, in the mix. I still, you know, Outside Festival is a reunion. So there was a lot of us, like Jody, Jody Potts and Dr. Ray Wing Grant, um, some of those folks. We're not doing anything, uh, big in particular like we did, you know, two, three years ago, but a lot of us are doing our own work and just really channeling and really getting, you know, the word out that we out here and that we're. You know, trying to make a change. I was, I just met an organization out of San Francisco called Nikas in Nature. And then my friend Ron Griswold has HBCU Outside. There's so many

• 29:40Hakim Tafari?

  amazing grassroots, Black, Brown, Indigenous groups that are pushing to get folks into climbing, into kayaking, into seeing the outdoors in a way that we've never seen before. Because I think folks really want it now. They want to come out to see. They want to come and they want to see what life is all about. Some folks have never experienced camping. Some folks have never experienced, you know, roasting a marshmallow on an open fire, you know? So I think it's just, we're seeing a new identity now. We're seeing, I wouldn't say it's a shift, but I just think culturally now, folks are not scared to go out there.

• 30:37Rich Roll?

  When you were with that community in Chiapas and you were running the mountains, was that your first sort of experience with this fusion between spirituality and running and mindfulness? Like, what was the lightbulb moment about that community?

• 30:59Hakim Tafari?

  You know, me and the folks of Air Libre, we were so, we were so enamored with each other and loved what we were doing that we were like, we got to do something together. We got to bring this spirituality and bring it into the mountains and bring these folks. And, you know, we'll make it. We'll plan the routes. We'll make sure that you folks feel safe enough to run these routes that we have designed. So it was the first time I'd ever really gone out in the country and done anything that, you know, being in remote areas where there wasn't, you know, Wi-Fi and stuff like that. But I was open to the idea because I knew it was going to be life-changing and I knew it was going to take me out of my comfort zone.

• 31:41Hakim Tafari?

  And doing that and being with folks, let me tell you about the second day.

• 31:50Hakim Tafari?

  Rich, when I went into districts that have never seen a black person before. These certain places in Chiapas that have never seen the likes of me before. And I'm looking at them like they're wearing these Sherpa style jackets and rich textiles. And there were different townships that had different ways of how they perceive their cultures. It was at a time where it was like Saint Michael, there was a big Saint Michael festival. And all these different townships had something going on. So imagine there's a group of 12 foreigners.

• 32:31Hakim Tafari?

  I can't remember how many black bodies, but it was this, you know, you could tell we weren't all from Chiapas. We weren't all from Mexico. And these folks, I didn't feel worried, not one bit. And I remember having one of our guides, I can't remember our guide's name.

• 32:51Hakim Tafari?

  But he would run us through these areas and these trails. That was so beautiful and so mystic and smells that I had never smelled before. At that point, especially running up the volcano, we ran up a volcano one day.

• 33:10Hakim Tafari?

  And that was an adventure in itself. But running up that volcano and doing a big sky meditation after the, once we reached. I think that was really the moment that I was realized, I realized, I was like, yeah. This is, this is what I meant to see.

• 33:31Hakim Tafari?

  Running with 200 folks is beautiful, but being on the top of a volcano. With six, seven of the locals from that, from that area. Along with eight or nine of us from this country. And then my, Daniel and, and whoever else was with us. Being in silence and being above the clouds. And then after that, going into a coffee plantation where it was family owned. Picking these berries and having this family, having these kids just laughing and running up on us. And wanting to take photographs and locals calling me Joaquin.

• 34:15Hakim Tafari?

  Treating me, bringing me in, cooking me food.

• 34:20Hakim Tafari?

  That was when I was like, I'm meant to see the world and this is, this is why I'm here. This is why I've been given the chance that I've been given. And to also come back and to show folks who look and sound like me that you can do this too.

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  Have you gone back? Have you brought people back there?

• 34:37Hakim Tafari?

  I haven't. I haven't had a chance to go back. I needed to tap in with El Libre and do a reunion because we did Chiapas in 18 and then we did Oaxaca in 19 and then the lockdown happened. But yeah, I mean, Oaxaca was the same thing. You know, being in a teepee on the middle of a river, doing meditation and doing qigong was absolutely mind blowing. We did a somewhat called like the Trail of Tears, where it was kind of like how you have the Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad, but it was kind of like for the indigenous Mexicans in Oaxaca.

• 35:21Hakim Tafari?

  And it was like a trail that they were built to escape the conquistadors. And we ran this trail that was like 16 miles and you could feel the spirits guiding you as you ran that trail.

• 35:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's heavy. I mean, how long ago was that?

• 35:41Hakim Tafari?

  Oh, God.

• 35:42Rich Roll?

  1,000? Year 1,000 or something?

• 35:45Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 35:47Rich Roll?

  My history is bad. You felt the resonance?

• 35:50Hakim Tafari?

  Oh, you felt it. You felt it. You could just look at the cliffs and see, you know, this was how they were dodging the conquistadors because they knew that they weren't able to get up on these certain ridges and go through these certain little... And then to end on both occasions, the occasions in the volcano and then running through this kind of Trail of Tears, we did a Temescal ceremony, which is where it's kind of, you're in a sweat lodge and you're in the dark. And there's like eight or nine of you in this and you're seeing, you're seeing some shit in there.

• 36:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 36:27Hakim Tafari?

  And that was, again, going through things like that.

• 36:32Hakim Tafari?

  Changed my life. And then Japan.

• 36:35Rich Roll?

  Oh, I don't know about Japan.

• 36:36Hakim Tafari?

  You don't know about Japan?

• 36:37Rich Roll?

  Did we talk about this last time?

• 36:38Hakim Tafari?

  No, we didn't talk about Japan. Japan wasn't even on the radar.

• 36:44Rich Roll?

  Talk to me. Yeah.

• 36:47Hakim Tafari?

  So.

• 36:47Rich Roll?

  What happened in Japan?

• 36:49Hakim Tafari?

  I got to do a campaign with this company called ROK. And one of my best friends in the world, Travis Weller, who is a pretty well renowned, pretty well-known trail runner. And this guy named Drew Smith. And for anyone who don't know who Drew Smith is, Drew Smith is one of the most incredible photographers you'll ever meet and ever see. His work is incredible. So he had just did, right before we did Japan, he had just did Jim Morrison's first ascent into some mountains. They were in Pakistan. It was the first ascent since Hillary had passed away.

• 37:35Hakim Tafari?

  So Drew was on that mission. And right after that, he came with us to Japan. And originally, we were gonna do, we had an idea, or ROK had an idea, ROK and Travis had an idea of doing what is called a misogi. The original idea of misogi is like a ritual. It's like a Cold War ritual

• 37:59Hakim Tafari?

  that spans like a week. And it's kind of like a rite of passage for

• 38:05Hakim Tafari?

  older spiritual folk. I don't know from what spiritual lineage this came from, but it's basically called misogi. And Travis and Nash, who works for ROK, had this idea of, let's do our own style of misogi.

• 38:26Hakim Tafari?

  And the idea was to do a misogi that was running thirteen peaks within two or three days.

• 38:35Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 38:36Hakim Tafari?

  These peaks were the dicehead Susan traverse, which is in the northern part of Japan, Hokkaido. Well, I was just talking to Travis the other day and originally when he was like, there's a chance that we could do Japan or there's a chance that, you know, rock might send us Japan. I was like, hey, man, if they send you, let me go. That's a dream of mine. He's like, I don't know if you're gonna be able to make this one, mate. This is kind of a dicey one. And at the time, my friend Rio, Rio Lakeshore, who's a really well-known trail runner out here, black brother, really, really dope friend of mine, an amazing runner, he was supposed to do it with Travis because they were like the models for rock.

• 39:21Hakim Tafari?

  But for whatever reason, Rio couldn't go. So Travis gave me a call.

• 39:27Rich Roll?

  You got slotted in.

• 39:28Hakim Tafari?

  I got slotted in.

• 39:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Was it more than you bargained for?

• 39:33Rich Roll?

  How big were these peaks?

• 39:36Hakim Tafari?

  Well, it was fifty fifty whether we were gonna do it. So we had an A plan, a B plan, a C plan and a D plan. And we didn't know whether it was gonna be snowing because we were going in the, we went last year around the end of May, early June time. So we were hoping to go see the rose garden season. We were hoping that it was gonna be summer and sun and field. Well, we get there and it was snow and it was big snow. So us trying to do thirteen peaks, it wasn't gonna happen. And then there was this a level of danger that I'm not used to.

• 40:21Hakim Tafari?

  Travis somewhat and Drew definitely. Drew just came from Pakistan. We did triple the amount. But we knew that we wanted to do it and we wanted to at least attempt to do some type of misog. So we ended up not doing the thirteen peaks. We ended up doing a few and we ended up climbing Mount Ashidaki, which is the highest peak in northern Japan. And we ended up doing that. So we didn't end up doing the whole thirteen peaks because the conditions were just way too rough. By the time we ended up on top of Mount Ashidaki was like thirty, forty mile per hour winds. You could hardly see.

• 41:04Hakim Tafari?

  But we ended up summiting and it was probably another life changing experience in my life that I have never experienced. Or should I say it was an experience that will forever be cemented in both mine and Travis's life and Drew's life because Nash, who was originally supposed to come up with this, ended up having back spasm. So it was only three of us that went up. And it was a really, really, you know, we were doing some knife ridges. There were some really technical parts of that mountain that we climbed. But I ended up doing it and ended up summiting in it.

• 41:44Hakim Tafari?

  It was just one of the most powerful experiences that I have ever, ever, ever had in my life. And then to be in Japan, to be in the home of Zen, to be, you know, there was just so many things, but Japan was.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  But tell me more about the life changing piece. Like you brought it up and your eyes lit up. There was something about this that seems to have something to do with more than just the degree of difficulty in the cold and the fact that it was in Japan. Like, why was it so life transformative?

• 42:15Hakim Tafari?

  There was a brotherhood between the group of going up there. There was something that was, I got to see the world in a way that I had never, ever seen before. Vast, vast peaks and mountains. And then to be.

• 42:37Hakim Tafari?

  In a space where I didn't believe myself that I could do it. And then to do it, and then the look at the level of what I did. I really started thinking about my childhood and how I was raised and thinking about my parents and thinking about, you know, just different ancestors who had never, who wouldn't have even dreamed of being in the space. And then there was one time where me and Travis had this moment where I looked at him. And he looked at me and he said, are you okay?

• 43:18Hakim Tafari?

  And the winds were coming and it was like when you're on some mountain and you can't, you don't see anything when you're looking down.

• 43:26Hakim Tafari?

  And I remember looking at him and it was like one of those moments where if we were gonna stop, we needed to stop because there was no turning back. And I looked at him and I was, and I don't even think I said anything. I just said, I'm good, let's go. And I think for me, there was something so.

• 43:50Hakim Tafari?

  When we made that summit.

• 43:55Hakim Tafari?

  I cried in a way that I never cried before.

• 44:00Hakim Tafari?

  And just thinking about it now, it just, it really.

• 44:06Hakim Tafari?

  You know, several years back, I was like, man, I, I, I was in a position where I didn't think that I would ever have opportunity to see this type of thing in my life.

• 44:19Hakim Tafari?

  I was in a position where I was like, I couldn't see, I couldn't see, you know, the, I, I couldn't see a foot in front of me.

• 44:29Hakim Tafari?

  And here I was looking at these mountains and these clouds.

• 44:37Hakim Tafari?

  And keep in mind, right before we made a summit, this couple who wore this denim.

• 44:45Rich Roll?

  Just in case you're getting a little, you know, digging your britches, buddy.

• 44:56Hakim Tafari?

  And we were laughing like, how the fuck did they do this?

• 44:59Rich Roll?

  This is not Everest.

• 45:01Hakim Tafari?

  But um, it just brought me to a place where I was like,

• 45:10Hakim Tafari?

  there are certain things in your life that you were meant to see, that you were meant to do, and you were meant to be. And I have this saying that it's already been written in the tapestry of the universe. We're just too blind sometimes to see it and we are sometimes too ignorant to see it. And I got to see my life in 4K in front of me. And me and Travis hugged each other as when we made that summer and it was just like, and Drew came in and

• 45:43Hakim Tafari?

  it was just one of those moments that

• 45:48Hakim Tafari?

  it made me believe in the human existence. Like, if I could take somebody from Compton, if I could take somebody from Brixton, if I could take somebody from Hackney, if I could take somebody from Idaho, who has never seen something like this, I would do it in a heartbeat. Just for them to get that moment to see life in its fullness and in its totality.

• 46:16Rich Roll?

  It's also a punctuation mark on this evolving relationship with reinvention that you have. Like, literally and symbolically, when you climb a mountain, you stand at the top and you look down and reflect upon where you were and how you got to where you are, right?

• 46:37Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 46:38Rich Roll?

  And so I have to believe on some level like that experience is going to lend to some reflection on. On your own life, you you mentioned, like you were thinking about, you know, your past. I mean, you've you've kind of weathered and undergone lots of changes over the course of your life. And you could say, well, there was this transformation and that transformation. I mean, in truth, it's just, it's a constant process of becoming and unfoldment. That gets occasional punctuation marks that people can point to. But a heightened experience like that is going to, you know, is going to kind of conjure that. And the emotion around it is, is like valuing yourself for having, you know,

• 47:22Rich Roll?

  trodden that that difficult path.

• 47:25Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 47:26Rich Roll?

  It's like an act of self honoring.

• 47:29Hakim Tafari?

  It really is. And in turn, it was a misog. It really was a misog. It was a was a trial. It was a certain trial, not by fire, but it was a trial because of what it took to get to that point, what it took to get from Sapporo to Hokkaido, to weathering what Nash was going through, not knowing if we were going to make it, not knowing how far we were going to make it, you know, stopping at the hut and then making, you know, they had several huts where you can sleep, you know, at night, you know, or, you know, just rest up. And I just, you know, remembering being at the hut and

• 48:10Hakim Tafari?

  we all having that conversation like, okay, you know, it's like, make or break, do we go further? Do we go try do this? Because if we're going to do this in two days, this is what the, this is what it's going to look like tonight. This is what it's going to look like tomorrow. Boom, boom, boom. And then to make the decision to just do what we did. And, you know, there was one thought that the one part of the story that I have to say is that coming up, I was, you know, oh, my God, I don't know how I'm going to climb back down. And, you know, this coming up here is hard enough. Coming

• 48:50Hakim Tafari?

  back down, how the hell am I going to do that? And I just remember coming back down and feeling like.

• 48:59Hakim Tafari?

  The Hakim, when I was 10 years old at Christchurch Park in Ipswich, when it would snow and us going down the sledge. That's how I felt coming down those big effing mountains, sliding down. I'd never experienced a tree well. Do you know what a tree well is?

• 49:18Rich Roll?

  Uh-uh.

• 49:19Hakim Tafari?

  So a tree well is when there's ice in the tree, there's like a certain hole that is protected, that protects the tree. And it's, it's pretty shallow. So if you're walking, like your whole leg will just collapse in that. So I wasn't experienced in tree wells and I didn't know how often they came about going down. I was literally putting my foot in a tree well, every other foot. We were laughing so hard that it was like three kids in like climbing down a sled, you know, on a sledge, but we were literally, you know, had our spikes on our hiking boots

• 50:04Hakim Tafari?

  and sliding down this like we were 10, 11 years old.

• 50:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 50:08Hakim Tafari?

  Just like giddy, three of us.

• 50:10Rich Roll?

  And if you could tell that kid in Ipswich or that young guy who was cruising around Austin or the broken man who, who, you know, stumbled into a Buddhist temple in Orlando, that, you know, this is what you would be doing. And the decision you were going to have to make is whether you were going to continue to the top or turn around, like that would have blown any of those three young Huggins minds, right? Like, so.

• 50:37Hakim Tafari?

  You don't even know me. Yeah.

• 50:39Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? So it is this, yeah, it's this punctuation mark on, on like, you know, a life that is one of, one in which you've worked very hard to, to become the person that, that you are today. And one that you've also are in a position to enjoy because you've let it all go. And it's like this tension between surrender and also honoring yourself because you did put in a lot of work to make it happen.

• 51:09Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 51:09Rich Roll?

  It's the conundrum at the heart of, you know, this type of spiritual practice.

• 51:16Hakim Tafari?

  Hmm. You make it sound so beautiful, Rich. You really do.

• 51:22Rich Roll?

  I just want you to tell the stories, but I, but I guess, I guess I'm sort of saying that because.

• 51:29Rich Roll?

  I want to understand the nature of change and the process of reinvention. You know, if there is like a theme that recurs the most on this show, it's like, it's like, how do you change? How do you become a better person physically, mentally, emotionally, spiritually? And there is no one path. And there's also like no right or wrong answer. And sometimes these, these ways conflict with each other. They contradict each other, you know, which makes it confusing because people just want to know, like, well, just tell me what to do and I'll do it. And life has a different way.

• 52:10Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 52:10Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 52:11Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 52:11Rich Roll?

  And so I would imagine people ask you all the time, like, how did you go from, from that guy to this guy to now this guy? Like, what are the steps that you undertook? Or when you reflect on that and are in a position to answer that question for somebody, how do you, you know, think about that and respond?

• 52:32Hakim Tafari?

  Well, it's a twofold. One, my partner, Melinda, who has been really a catalyst in this change because I hadn't really been in a relationship where I had a partner who really fully believed in what I had and could do and never really fought me on it. She has always had an amazing ability of being my biggest cheerleader, my manager. She'll give me critique when I need it or when I don't need it.

• 53:14Hakim Tafari?

  But what was really evident was that I had never experienced a type of love like that before. And that love was really, I felt safe. I felt safe going into this run culture. I felt safe going back into DJing. I felt safe teaching Tai Chi and Qigong again. You know, she was the one who said, start teaching Tai Chi and Qigong again. And I started teaching in the backyard.

• 53:49Hakim Tafari?

  Seven years later, I have a residency at the Line Hotel. She was the one who was like,

• 53:57Hakim Tafari?

  "Go to the mountain and do this summit."

• 54:01Hakim Tafari?

  "Let's go do it." It was the summit that I did with Conrad Anker. That changed my life. So there was coming to LA.

• 54:12Hakim Tafari?

  There was all these things. She didn't give me a chance to doubt myself. She was always like, "This is what you need to do." So finding somebody like Melinda was really key and pivotal because she gave me a way to find, she gave me the steps in order to find my own inner liberation, to find my freedom. And she gave me permission, if I was gonna fumble or fuck up or she wasn't gonna be there to judge me, she was gonna be there to hold my hand and say, "Okay, let's get up and try it again." So that was a big catalyst. Finding somebody who really, truly loved me and loved me in my truest, rawest state. And that was really big. That was so big. And we had some really hard times in that first year

• 54:57Hakim Tafari?

  when I came from Orlando to LA. And it was really, really hard. And she believed in me and really trusted me. And we, and still continue to work together. And therapy, which is a segue into therapy. Therapy. You know, I went forty-something years of not having one therapy session. And I went into therapy and had couples therapy and then had my own therapist. And then, you know, I just had therapy with Melinda today. And therapy, like, it gave me a chance to look at...

• 55:41Hakim Tafari?

  Myself and past traumas, stuff with my parents, stuff with my kids. You know, it just really forced me. No, I don't want to use the word forced. It gave me a chance to really look at these things that I had never, ever looked at. Because I put them in the deepest recesses in my mind, or put them in the deepest recesses in my body. And I didn't want to touch them anymore. And these syrup has brought them back out. And shout out to Danae, who's our therapist right now. Danae is incredible in the aspect of really showing us like, no, you were here to show Hakim how to do this. No, you were here, Melinda, to show.

• 56:25Hakim Tafari?

  So, therapy has been really a game changer for me. And, you know, there's this really big misnomer, or this really big thing within, you know, the black community around therapy. And I don't need therapy. And I was one of those that's like, I don't need therapy. What do I need therapy for? Therapy's some white shit. That ain't me. This is, everyone needs therapy. I can honestly say, anyone and everyone needs therapy. To the point that I've, you know, talked to my kids about therapy. You know, it's really been one of those things that, if I had the opportunity to talk to these young Hakims, I would say, jump into therapy. You know, had I had known about therapy,

• 57:10Hakim Tafari?

  even when I was at Whole Foods and I had it, and I had access to it. I didn't even use it. Because I was just, I don't need it. And it took me getting to a certain point and trusting Melinda, and trusting the process in being like, that really was something that I needed. And that's why, you know, we talk about Phil. Phil Stutz. And I just want to give that man the X amount of flowers, because I watched that and I cried like a baby, because it brought so many things. And it made me look at my life in so many different ways. That therapy, anyone and everyone should do it. I can't, I can't champion it enough. Therapy was this game changer.

• 57:54Rich Roll?

  That was not the answer that I thought you were gonna give. So interesting. I lobbed this all in your direction about the driving forces of reinvention. And your answer was a partner who loved you unconditionally and was able to see your highest self or the potential of your highest self and was in support of that blooming in you, right? And then therapy, because you're the Zen Buddhist guy who teaches Qigong and meditation and mindfulness. So I was preparing myself for a good dose of that side of the equation.

• 58:35Hakim Tafari?

  You know, I'll tell you, because, and a lot of people think that, but here's the thing. Meditation can't save you.

• 58:42Rich Roll?

  It's also not therapy.

• 58:44Hakim Tafari?

  And it's not therapy.

• 58:45Rich Roll?

  It's not gonna heal your childhood trauma or absolve you of your resentment.

• 58:50Hakim Tafari?

  And it isn't, and it isn't. And you know what? People know that. People know that I really lean on meditation and I really lean on my Buddhist practice. But there's more than that. And I think, no, let me not say that. I don't think I know that in these years of doing what I've done and being where I've been, a lot of it was I had to fight imposter syndrome because I didn't feel like I could be, I didn't feel like I was meant to be in Japan. I didn't feel like I was meant to be in Chiapas.

• 59:32Hakim Tafari?

  Or I didn't feel that I should be at the Outside Festival. Or I had to fight for so many years this imposter syndrome of stuff that I've been doing for 20, 30 years and still not believing. So the minute that somebody said, "I actually do believe in you."

• 59:51Hakim Tafari?

  I actually do think that you are somebody who could really change the climate of the world and change the climate of how you see this. That was a game changer because you're not gonna find that being in the Vipassana sitting seven, eight days in silence. You're gonna find something, but you also need people in your corner who are gonna really push and support you, just like you have your wife. It's like you have your partner, just like you have certain friends who are gonna really lobby and push and really, you know. And at the end of the day, the person that I would always come to is my partner.

• 1:00:33Hakim Tafari?

  And I have my alter and I have my partner and I have my kids. And those are the ones who really have really brought me into the space that I'm into right now. Buddha, of course, Buddha's always gonna be there. And the Vipassana practice of being in silence and being in those spaces where I have the privilege to go away to be in silence is amazing. But there's something more than that. And I think, you know, as I said, as somebody who came up, I always tried to be, you know, had immigrant parents from Jamaica who didn't have anything.

• 1:01:16Hakim Tafari?

  So growing up, they were like, you have to be this. We need you to be this. You gotta be the one who goes to college. You gotta be the one who, you know, be the breadwinner. You gotta, we want you to be, have a house. We want you. So there was a lot of pressure and I had to fit these moles and had to fit these things. And then, as I said, when I got to that stage where I thought I lost everything and boom, boom, boom, I had to rebuild myself back up. I had to reinvent, as you said, you know, the reinvention. And that's when I, you know, really home den on.

• 1:01:55Hakim Tafari?

  What is reinvention? How do you reinvent? How do you reinterpret or redesign and reconfigure? You have to break shit down. You have to dismount. You have to destroy old misnomers. You have to do the destroying in order to build what you need to build. And I destroyed a lot of old. I destroyed a lot of the old legacies, a lot of the old stories. And I moved to LA. And I had somebody who had my back in a way that I'd never had before. More so than my parents, more so than... And I shouldn't say more so than my parents because my parents, I love my parents.

• 1:02:35Hakim Tafari?

  But I tell the story that my parents didn't tell me that they loved me until I was 25. You know what I mean? I didn't get that. So having a woman telling me that I'm going to support you and I got your back unconditionally, and we're going to make it. And you are way destined to do more than this. Let's try this out. Let's try this out. Let's try this out. It's like a vegan gumbo, putting the compassion, putting that woman, putting, you know, the experiences. And if I was to whisk that vegan gumbo together, that is how Hakim is, where he's at today.

• 1:03:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was very elegantly and beautifully put.

• 1:03:32Rich Roll?

  I think that what maybe got lost in your account or in the way you just described your story is the fact that you had to, you had to put in the work to become the person. Who was worthy of being with someone like Melinda, right? So it's not like, oh, you just lucked into it. Like, there was a lot of inner work that was occurring prior to that relationship, right?

• 1:04:02Hakim Tafari?

  For sure.

• 1:04:03Rich Roll?

  You're shouldered with all this responsibility and expectation. So what do you do? You go out into the world and you say, fuck that. And you do what you want and you blow the whole thing up, right? Because on some level, there's resentment or some unhealed trauma of not feeling, you know, like love was unconditional in your house and not having your emotional needs met essentially, right? Which sets you on a certain trajectory until you crash and burn, right? But you can't be a phoenix until there's a big fat fire, right? So you gotta do that. And then you start throwing in the ingredients into the gumbo, right? And it doesn't, and when you're doing it,

• 1:04:44Rich Roll?

  you don't know what you're doing or where it's going to head or why you're even doing it. But there's nothing else to do because everything else has disappeared, right? And you're kind of with yourself, forced to meet yourself, maybe for the very first time as you truly are. And that's scary and uncertain, but beautiful also, right? It creates this situation of receptivity where suddenly you, you are open to things you weren't before because your options have been taken away from you.

• 1:05:20Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's why now I do all this stuff.

• 1:05:29Rich Roll?

  So the question then becomes for me, because this is my dilemma. Then when everything's clicking and everything's good, how do you stay connected to that? Because for me, I just get caught up in my own mind and I take myself well back. It becomes just a little bit harder to do that surrender thing because I got shit going on. I gotta call that guy and I got people coming to the studio. And it's all good and it's rocking, right? That's a recipe for disaster because now you think, once again, that you're the big boss in control. And you're basically, you know, setting yourself up for another reckoning. So staying connected.

• 1:06:16Rich Roll?

  To what got you to that place? I think is essential, but also becomes more challenging. When your life kind of falls back into place, or you are able to like repair that wreckage and, and get to a place where you, you, you do feel good in your own skin. And like you're on the right path.

• 1:06:39Hakim Tafari?

  The work doesn't stop. I mean, that's why I still do therapy.

• 1:06:44Rich Roll?

  But you're very committed. Like you, it is like number one, you get up, you have your whole routine. Like, I mean, this is not negotiable. You know what I mean? And I would say that I am always negotiating it.

• 1:06:57Hakim Tafari?

  Hmm. Cause I've been in a place where there was no negotiation.

• 1:07:01Rich Roll?

  Right. But now things are chill. Right? This is my question. This is what I'm saying. So now like the pressure's off, right?

• 1:07:11Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:12Rich Roll?

  So how do you maintain that commitment? Like, how do you stay connected to the essentialism of it? As like your number one priority?

• 1:07:22Hakim Tafari?

  I have role models. Well, I wouldn't call them role models. Like I have folks who I greatly admire, who somewhat like me have been through a journey and have been through certain things in order to get them where they are now. And I also recognize when I'm not getting any younger,

• 1:07:52Hakim Tafari?

  the value that I have for my body

• 1:07:59Hakim Tafari?

  and my heart mind. I value it so much more now.

• 1:08:05Hakim Tafari?

  So, you know, I don't take it for granted. Yeah, it's a, it's a routine for me. Like I get up in the morning, work out, go run, drink my hundred gallons of green tea. Like, you know, all these things that I'm used to. But here's one thing I put into you. I have a lot of friends, when I look at their IGs, they're like obituary accounts.

• 1:08:36Hakim Tafari?

  So many friends and acquaintances have died in these last couple of years that I've seen.

• 1:08:46Hakim Tafari?

  This guy died, this person died, this person died.

• 1:08:52Hakim Tafari?

  And I realized my life can be taken just like that.

• 1:08:59Hakim Tafari?

  So in the aspect of being present as much as I can in every moment, in any situation, in every situation, and looking at the beauty in those situations, I try to, without sounding kumbaya and roasting the classes, because shit ain't gonna be like that all the while. But for the most part, I'm thankful that I have the ability to get up and do what I do every morning, to get two, three hours to work out, to paint Enzos, to meditate, to have the opportunity to go to Spirit Rock, teach Mindful Movement, to go to the Outside Festival,

• 1:09:41Hakim Tafari?

  to go to this festival, to go DJ, to do sound baths, to do...

• 1:09:50Hakim Tafari?

  It took a level of work, but trusting in myself to know that this feels really good and I love where I'm at right now. And I knew what it was to be in this position and that I don't ever want to be in this position ever again.

• 1:10:15Hakim Tafari?

  And I like what it is to be here. So let me just do what I can to be the best human being that I can, to be the best partner that I can, to be the best father that I can, and to be the best person that I can show up to whoever it is, whether I know you, whether I met you for the first time or whether I've known you for years. Because it's just how I've been.

• 1:10:43Hakim Tafari?

  Again, I just remember that time where I might not have been on this earth.

• 1:10:51Hakim Tafari?

  But I understand what has been written in the tapestry of the universe and I love what has been written. And I understand that there are new stories that are being written, whether I know it or not. And I'm just really, just really just being present with it and enjoying it and seeing what comes because this has just been one of those years that has just blown my mind, being in Paris, being in Costa Rica, being in, you know. You've been around. Yeah, been around and it's just the opportunities, the opportunities.

• 1:11:31Hakim Tafari?

  I was just telling somebody just the other day, I have an innate ability and I don't know how it is. I was just in London and Paris and I was with some of the heaviest, some of the most heavyweight DJs in the world. Then I'm at the Outside Festival and I'm with some of the most pivotal people within the black, brown, indigenous spaces and within the outside spaces. I'm in London where I just ran a marathon and I'm hanging with every heavy hitter in every run crew. How is it that I'm in these spaces?

• 1:12:12Hakim Tafari?

  I don't know, but I give thanks and I don't take it lightly and I recognize the privilege that I have. So, you know, I want to be as authentic and as true to anyone and everyone that I come into contact with. I also want to be of service to the folks that I can. That's why I love doing things like with the youth and taking them into the mountains and, you know, trying to work on getting into the prison systems and doing work like my friend Vinnie Ferraro and my friend Oscar Medina and doing things like teaching the Brahma Vaharas, you know, teaching people how to love and how to find themselves.

• 1:12:57Hakim Tafari?

  These are the things and.

• 1:13:00Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, I'm just.

• 1:13:04Hakim Tafari?

  I don't take it lightly that I'm here in this spot, talking to Rich Roll, having this.

• 1:13:08Rich Roll?

  Well, there's a, there's a humility, you know, in your voice. Like, you're very connected to your humility. And it feels like that helps to keep you grounded.

• 1:13:21Rich Roll?

  You know, Hawks not in charge. All these, you know, players that you're meeting in all these different places and all these exotic locations that you've traveled to. You're not taking credit for that. Like, you're honoring yourself, but you're also appreciating that greater forces are at play. That's what I'm hearing.

• 1:13:42Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:42Rich Roll?

  In your voice.

• 1:13:43Hakim Tafari?

  For sure.

• 1:13:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:44Hakim Tafari?

  For sure.

• 1:13:45Rich Roll?

  It's all divinity, isn't it, on some level?

• 1:13:48Hakim Tafari?

  It is, it is, it is. And, you know, I look at myself as being a spiritual being, living a human existence. And then I know there's this whole, are you a human being living a spiritual experience? Or are you a spiritual being living a human experience? You know, I honestly look at myself as a spiritual being, living a human existence, and really just taking it one step at a time, but really, uh, being present with it, being, being observant of it, and being humble with it, and knowing that my ancestors put me in this position for a certain reason. I understand the platforms that I have, I understand the leverage I have,

• 1:14:30Hakim Tafari?

  I understand the privileges that I have, but I also understand that

• 1:14:36Hakim Tafari?

  the ancestors put me in this position, and I heed the words of the ancestors. And I, and I really, really don't want to upset the ancestors. I want to make, I want to be my ancestors' wildest dreams.

• 1:14:51Rich Roll?

  You know how they say, uh...

• 1:14:55Rich Roll?

  You kind of hear what you need to hear, you know, it's like, I needed to hear this today. It is my dilemma. Like, I have so much to be grateful for, and I'm hyper aware of

• 1:15:11Rich Roll?

  of this incredible life that I get to live. Like, it's not like it, it doesn't elude me. Like, I'm fully present in this miracle that I know I didn't create.

• 1:15:25Rich Roll?

  But I get caught up in the day, and things are happening, and it's very easy for me to disconnect from that or lose sight of it. Like, I'm not present. And I know the antidote, the solution, is more meditation, right? More mindfulness. There's all these things. It's like, but those are the moments where I'm like, I don't do it. It's like, it's that joke. Like, if you're too busy to meditate, then you need to meditate twice as long, that idea. But when you're in the moment, it's very hard to course correct, you know? And so I think having hard and fast rules around what these practices are, are the guardrails that I'm lacking, because I negotiate with myself around them too

• 1:16:09Rich Roll?

  much. And that allows me to make excuses. And every time I do that, I put distance between myself and the better version of myself, who is more grateful, more present, more aware, more honoring, you know, all of those things that I can be, have been, know how to be, but need to do a better job of making sure that that's the first thing and not the 10th thing on the to-do list, right?

• 1:16:46Hakim Tafari?

  It's priorities. And those, those inner priorities, the inner work, or what do they call it? The shadow work?

• 1:16:56Rich Roll?

  What does that look like for you?

• 1:17:00Hakim Tafari?

  The shadow work for me is a lot of deep reflections, a lot of, a lot of. When I get up in the morning and going down to my studio and putting some Pharoah Saunders on or putting some John Coltrane on and thinking, really, really having a deep meditation like,

• 1:17:30Hakim Tafari?

  what are you trying to do? What does it look like for you? What are you trying to do today? What are you trying to do at this moment? How is it looking for you? And having those deep internal, you know, having two older sisters and not really being, being more of an only child, you tend to think a lot, you tend to overanalyze, you tend to, you know.

• 1:17:58Hakim Tafari?

  And sometimes you tend to, we have the saying in Buddhism called papancha, where you make up these stories in your head that may not necessarily be true, but you have these stories in your head. Usually not. They're usually not. I think I just really come to a point in my life where

• 1:18:21Hakim Tafari?

  I just really know and trust what I want now.

• 1:18:26Hakim Tafari?

  And I just really have deep conversations with myself that I'm not afraid to have. I'm not afraid to check myself. I'm not afraid to have those looks in the mirror internally and be like, nah, bro, you're kind of fucking up. You need to kind of step it up a little bit here or you need to maybe just kind of turn it down a notch. Having those internal conversations, which I have a lot, that's all I've ever known. So I do a lot of internal work.

• 1:18:57Rich Roll?

  The trick with that, though, is not to fall into the trap of self-loathing, right? I mean, you could just flog yourself. You should have done that. You should be better. What are you doing that again?

• 1:19:09Hakim Tafari?

  Well, that's where the Brahma Vahara is coming in.

• 1:19:10Rich Roll?

  These are two different things, like owning your shit and holding yourself to account, but not coming from a place of guilt or shame.

• 1:19:19Hakim Tafari?

  Exactly.

• 1:19:20Rich Roll?

  Coming from a place of honoring yourself because you know you can be better.

• 1:19:24Hakim Tafari?

  And you can, yeah, exactly. And that's where the Brahma Vahara is coming. That's where the love and kindness, the joy, the compassion, the equanimity. And equanimity is really, really big. Equanimity, having a spiritual authority about yourself, knowing what makes you tick spiritually, is something that is really big for me and I think was really grounding for me. I know that I'm trying to live a certain lifestyle. I know that I'm trying to be a certain way. I know that I need that love and kindness for myself. I need that compassion for myself.

• 1:20:09Hakim Tafari?

  I need to give myself grace. I talk to countless of clients who call me and say, I don't know how to have grace for myself. I don't know how to have compassion for myself. Those years of having to find myself, I had to learn how to give myself grace. I had to learn how to love myself again, how to be kind to myself again. And all of that brought me to a certain equanimity, but a certain autonomy. Like, I know this is how I am and this is how I structure myself. And if I want to be a better person, this is what I need to do to be that better person.

• 1:20:53Hakim Tafari?

  I need to meditate. I need to talk to my partner a little bit better. I need to be a little bit more interactive with my son. I need to talk to Nai. I need to talk to Leia. I need to do this with Ayla a little bit. All these things come into play.

• 1:21:10Hakim Tafari?

  And I'm not afraid to look at myself and have those hard conversations. And I'm not afraid to love myself and give myself grace and compassion. There is a middle path to everything. And I think that's the key point is really knowing how to balance and structure that. Cause if you get trapped in the self-loathing, the self-hate, the self-doubt, that's gonna lead you down a hard road. And honestly, that's the dukkha. That's the dukkha. That's the straight-up dukkha. Doubting self, fearing, not knowing. It's scary not knowing what's gonna happen. It's scary not knowing what's gonna happen tomorrow or what's gonna happen the next day. There's doubt.

• 1:21:53Hakim Tafari?

  All these things, you know, in Buddhist terms, we call that dukkha. All these dukkhas come up. But I've been training hard like I was an Olympic athlete in how to battle dukkha.

• 1:22:09Hakim Tafari?

  I'm on my Jesse Owens-type business. You know what I mean? I'm on my Jack Adjoa and Akursi-type business where I'm not trying to let dukkha dictate my life. Cause dukkha dictated my life for so many years that I'm not letting dukkha run my life anymore. So I'm now training, just like I tell my students with Tai Chi. When you do certain movements, you do it over and over and over again because it becomes muscle memory. So the things that I do, getting up, sage-ing myself, blighting the incense, doing my ice baths, doing, you know, listening to spiritual jazz instead of some rah-rah business to soothe my nervous system, finding ways to restructure and re-soothe my nervous system.

• 1:22:54Hakim Tafari?

  You know, going on a run, going on a nice, long run and, you know, doing a little microdose and doing a little adventure, you know what I mean? This is, all the things that I do is to put myself in a position where I can keep things in balance and keep things in check and not have to let dukkha come in and tell me, "Oh man, you should be worried. You should be worried about paying for that or how you're gonna get to that." When I knew I was going to England to run a marathon. Old me would have been freaking out about how much I gotta pay for this ticket and how much I gotta pay for that ticket. How am I gonna get this Airbnb and all that? I didn't. I didn't worry about it. I knew I was gonna have a fun time. I knew we were gonna have a fun time in Paris.

• 1:23:39Hakim Tafari?

  I knew we were gonna have a fun time. You know, boom, boom, boom. Everything works out the way it needs to work out. And I know it sounds cliche and I know it's like, cause you can't let just the spirit just take everything, but you have to have a verified faith in your spirituality in order to move and navigate through the world the way that I move. I understand there's a spiritual urgency, but as I said, if we come back to the four brahmahahars, there's a thing within that equanimity where I know I'm good. I'm good.

• 1:24:14Rich Roll?

  Preach it. Preach it, man. That was amazing.

• 1:24:21Rich Roll?

  How do you think about the intersection between movement, running, mindfulness and spirituality? Because one thing I've learned is obviously there's a, there's a deep spiritual connection by just simply being in nature. And there's an active meditation piece to running in silence, yourself in nature. But meditation formally defined is a different thing. And I think for many years, I sort of thought, well, I don't need to meditate because my meditation is running.

• 1:25:00Rich Roll?

  And I've learned through practice that that is not true, that my formal meditation practice is, is actually quite qualitatively different from the mindfulness benefits that I get from running. But I think it's important not to confuse them.

• 1:25:20Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:21Rich Roll?

  But I'm interested in how you think about this intersection.

• 1:25:25Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah. It's really important because I think it all, they're all part of the same kind of...

• 1:25:36Hakim Tafari?

  They're all part of the same puzzle in the aspect of, here's an example. I had an injury not to lumbar where, where I really ripped my ankle up. I don't know, grade three, grade four, I don't know how they graded, but it was a pretty, pretty serious one and I was on crutches and I remember um, one of my clients asked me, how are you taking that? Cause I know that you're really into running and you're really into, you know, running is a piece for you. So now that you've not got that running, how are you taking it? How are you?

• 1:26:11Hakim Tafari?

  And honestly, it was one of the first times that I actually loved having that injury. Because it forced me to do other things. It forced me to get on the road, it forced me to, to, you know, do the assault bike. It, it, it forced me to walk.

• 1:26:30Hakim Tafari?

  Slow walk. It forced me to think about my body in a way that I never before about before.

• 1:26:39Hakim Tafari?

  And I was good with it. And the pieces of that was that I got into my meditation practice even more at that point.

• 1:26:52Hakim Tafari?

  And I guess the meditation practice for me was just a validation to say, you're okay. You're really good. You're okay. To sink into the breath and sink into the logic of why you're doing this and why it feels good at this moment in time. And then, and I leaned on that. And then I leaned on to the Qi Gong. And I realized that, you know, certain movements are going to really help with the pain. Certain movements are going to really help with the movement of the Qi and the blood flow in, in, in the foot. And

• 1:27:30Hakim Tafari?

  So I look at it, again, if we're looking at it as a dish, I look at it as a great salad. And then the music, and then when you add music

• 1:27:41Hakim Tafari?

  as part of really soothing the nervous system, really soothing, you know, different parts of the brain, different parts of the mind. When you add all these things together, or you look at the intersection, they all are synergistic within each other.

• 1:28:01Hakim Tafari?

  People like to separate them as their own thing, but they all work as a grand unit. And if we really look into all these things, the mindfulness, the running, the stretching, the eating, the music, all of that goes hand in hand, going out to run to feel that liberation.

• 1:28:28Hakim Tafari?

  Even, you know, we talk about Toby and the plunge, you know, there is something very restorative and very mindful about putting the body through that. Right? And then going from that into the sauna. And then, and then just adding, you know, the mindful piece or the meditation piece. Adding all of these, these are all restorative. These are all restorative acts. They are also all radical acts, too. And when you look at the radical nature of running, when you look at the radical nature of being mindful, when you look at the radical nature

• 1:29:12Hakim Tafari?

  of sitting in silence for thirty or forty minutes, you realize that it's really part of a beautiful salad. And really, they all go hand in hand. When I meditate.

• 1:29:27Hakim Tafari?

  And then when I put the Tai Chi, the Tai Chi is a mindful movement. The Qigong is a mindful movement. The running is a mindful movement. All of those work hand in hand. And then the meditation piece is really kind of like the NOS. It's really like the fuel injection.

• 1:29:49Hakim Tafari?

  Because when you get to meditate, you really get to tune in with your body and your spirit and your inner psyche and your inner self in 4K. There's no running away from it. When you really dig deep, you're looking at shit in 4K. So now you take those elements and you put those elements within

• 1:30:15Hakim Tafari?

  the running. And you go out in nature. Yes, it's not a meditation, but there are elements of that meditative practice in it.

• 1:30:25Hakim Tafari?

  The Tai Chi, the Qigong. When you have a group of people, or even by yourself, but if you have a group of people and you just listen to 10 or 20 people breathing synergistically, there is something so harmonious and so auspicious about that.

• 1:30:45Hakim Tafari?

  And then,

• 1:30:47Hakim Tafari?

  again with music. Music has a way of bringing people together in a way that is very harmonious and very liberating. When people dance and when people really dance, they're letting out their inner soul.

• 1:31:06Hakim Tafari?

  You see it. You see it. You go to a festival and you see certain folks dancing and this. They're letting their inhibitions go. They're getting free. So in a way.

• 1:31:19Hakim Tafari?

  These, all these things are a way of showing you how to find true sense of liberation and inner freedom.

• 1:31:28Rich Roll?

  I never thought about the through line between all of these practices from music to Tai Chi to meditate, like the consistent theme being these tools to not only tune the individual, but tune the collective.

• 1:31:49Hakim Tafari?

  Yes.

• 1:31:50Rich Roll?

  How music gets everybody on the same frequency.

• 1:31:53Hakim Tafari?

  Yes.

• 1:31:54Rich Roll?

  And the way that like, that's what Tai Chi is doing.

• 1:31:57Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:58Rich Roll?

  This is like the same thing.

• 1:31:59Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:00Rich Roll?

  In certain ways.

• 1:32:01Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:02Rich Roll?

  Or the Run Club.

• 1:32:03Hakim Tafari?

  Or the Run Crew, yes. There's a certain frequency. When everyone's doing the scoop and everyone's doing their stretches and then you move and then you hit that collected breath, there's something powerful about that. There's something so organic about that. It's like when you're watching a flock of birds or you're watching elephants running together or you're seeing a herd of sheep together, there's a certain mystic energy about that. So then again, as I said, you look at that salad and you look at that intersection of

• 1:32:45Hakim Tafari?

  all of those, they all fit. They all fit. And they fit very beautifully if you're able to just be open to see how compatible they are.

• 1:33:00Rich Roll?

  Before you can enjoy that salad though, you gotta throw a few ingredients into the vegan gumbo, right?

• 1:33:06Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, you do.

• 1:33:10Rich Roll?

  Let it simmer to mix the metaphors here.

• 1:33:14Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:15Rich Roll?

  Speaking of Run Crews, you mentioned that you were in London, you ran the London Marathon.

• 1:33:21Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:21Rich Roll?

  And you got to spend some time with your boy Charlie Dark.

• 1:33:25Hakim Tafari?

  Oh.

• 1:33:27Rich Roll?

  I've only met him once. I met him at the Strava event, not this past year, the year before. And I just think he's, that guy's amazing. And then I read your Instagram caption to that photo that you posted, the two of you together. I was like, these guys must know each other.

• 1:33:45Hakim Tafari?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:33:45Rich Roll?

  And sure enough, you hadn't met until 2018, but you were stalking him in the

• 1:33:51Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:51Rich Roll?

  in the early aughts, you know, right?

• 1:33:54Hakim Tafari?

  Like, yeah. Yeah, I think.

• 1:33:56Rich Roll?

  And he became like this mentor to you or like a sort of lighthouse.

• 1:34:00Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:34:03Hakim Tafari?

  And, you know, have him tell you, he was like.

• 1:34:05Rich Roll?

  Well, explain to people who this guy is for people that don't know.

• 1:34:09Hakim Tafari?

  So Charlie Dark is, I mean, what can you say about this cat? Charlie Dark is a world renowned DJ. I mean, a world renowned DJ. He was part of a group called Attica Blues, who were a really big group in the early 90s on Ninja Tune or Moax, one of the two. He got into running and this was around 2010, 2011. And he, along with some individuals, Mike Says from New York, Cedric Hernandez from New York. And then there were some other cats from Japan and Seoul.

• 1:34:49Hakim Tafari?

  And they were originally, I would say they were the originators of what we see today as Run Crew culture. And. Charlie has a group called Run Them Crew in London. And along with Bridge Runners of New York, AFE, P R R C in Seoul, uh, Berlin Braves, the Craft Runners in um Berlin and Germany, and so many other crews, they formed this thing called Bridge the Gap. And it was a way of getting all these different runners of somewhat style and color and etiquette together.

• 1:35:33Hakim Tafari?

  And, you know, we wouldn't have Run Crew culture if it wasn't for the likes of Charlie. And over the years, Charlie has been one of those big spokespeople about running for the love of running. He's a global Lululemon ambassador. Um, he has worked for Nike, he's worked for Asics, he's worked for all these top brands within Run Crew culture. So many folks have come to him to as mentors um or mentees um within Run Crew, within brand work. He has given so many synopses on how to work with brands, because he's been doing it since the dawn of time.

• 1:36:16Hakim Tafari?

  Um, and then on top of that, he's become a yoga teacher.

• 1:36:21Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:36:21Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, oh yeah, he's become a yoga teacher. He is a great speaker, one of the greatest speakers. I mean, I heard him in London. I mean, you want to talk about turning uh bread in the wine or turning, you know, turning base metals into gold, Charlie can do that. I saw Charlie speak to a hundred and fifty, two hundred people. I mean, you would think he was Moses, the way he talks. I mean, he really has a way of. Inspiring folks. He's inspired folks from all over the world. You know, he's talked about running for mental health.

• 1:37:05Hakim Tafari?

  He'll tell you he's seen folks die from not being supported through mental health within his own run crew and has been a really big supporter on running and how running is really big for mental health and for the youth. He's led youth programs that have now led to run them, swim them, swim them crew.

• 1:37:29Hakim Tafari?

  So many different facets, so many crews have come out of Charlie's wheelhouse. I mean, I could go on and on, but Charlie has been this like, Charlie is in what we call a triple OG, more so than an OG is a triple OG. And I was stalking him from like 2013. We, we met in 2018 and somebody who I regard as a mentor and my Yoda. He's basically my Yoda and yeah, the relationship we have is this incredible.

• 1:38:08Rich Roll?

  Other than setting an example for you to follow, what, what was his influence? Like, what was his counsel or advice to you?

• 1:38:18Hakim Tafari?

  His key thing for me, especially since of late, was carve my lane. Know your lane and carve it. He gave me, much like Melinda. If Melinda was in a male form, I would say it would be Charlie because Charlie really gave me permission, like a blessing, like if Cool Hurt gave.

• 1:38:42Rich Roll?

  Go forth, son.

• 1:38:43Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah. Yeah. He was like, this is what you're meant to do. I mean, when I was dabbling with the Tai Chi and Qi Gong, he was the one who was like, you need to make this bigger. He was the one who was really big with me teaching mindfulness to runners, was really, really big about it and was like, no one's doing it. You're carving yourself a own lane, even with me coming back out and DJing. He was like.

• 1:39:15Hakim Tafari?

  Giving me pointers on what to do, on how to attack it. Like, you need to do this, this is how you can do this, carve your own lane. And really has been telling me how to innovate what I'm doing in a way that no one else has done. And as I said, if I could surmise it, I feel like I'm Luke in the Dagobah system with the Yoda. And how Yoda was in the Dagobah system when Luke had to lift the X-wing fighter, you know, doing a handstand is kind of like how I feel with Charlie and how I'm maneuvering with showing up in the world. That's like, this is how you treat people. This is how you act towards people.

• 1:40:00Hakim Tafari?

  This is how you leave a legacy. One of the things that I saw in 2018 when I met Charlie was we were at a Bridge the Gap event in the Bronx. And there was probably about 300 of us out there in the Bronx of all different crews. Sounded like the Warriors. And it literally was. And I remember when Charlie came up and walked through, you would think, you would think it was Yoda. I mean, the amount of respect that that guy got. You know what I mean? Like, you hear stories of like when Malcolm walked in the Audubon

• 1:40:42Hakim Tafari?

  or when, you know, Martin talked at Selma. You know, you hear these mythological stories of these great human individuals that are just able to speak to people in a way that you've never heard before. Dalai Lama, you've met Dalai Lama, so you know. There's certain individuals like that. Charlie is one of those people. And as I said, I just remember seeing him move and the way he moved. And one of the things that he taught me is

• 1:41:16Hakim Tafari?

  You have to carry yourself in a certain way. You have to carry yourself in a certain way that people will respect you. People would admire you. People will, but you gotta show up. Don't show up like you're holier than them, like you're bigger than them, like you've got something. Come as a human being. Come as humble as you are, but know that you are the shit in a certain way, in certain form. And this was to me, coming in two thousand eighteen. I wasn't really who I was in the Ron Crew culture. I was really a no one, but he made me feel bigger than I really was. And I never forget that.

• 1:41:59Hakim Tafari?

  And, and then for him to be somebody who I looked up to and was like, no, you're my peer. You're my peer.

• 1:42:11Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, I've got a little bit more years on you, but you're my peer. And then he told me that I was there for him in a part of his life that I didn't know, but I helped him. And hear him sharing that vulnerability and that human aspect. Cause you meet certain folks and they're like, they're douches. It doesn't be plain out simple. They're, they're, they're really like on a level, they look like they're powerful and they look superhuman and they look. And then you meet them and you're like, man, that's that person. Charlie gave me the antithesis of that. To where I was like, I wanna be like him. When I step into a room, I want that type of respect.

• 1:42:56Hakim Tafari?

  I want to be held in that same type of adoration. And I just started studying how he moved and would have talks with him. And we would just, you know, we have each other on WhatsApp and I would just call him and I'd just ask him for information. And he would give me, you know, whenever I'd go on a rant on Instagram, he'd be like, you don't need to do that. What's that for? And if Melinda showed me how to soften my heart in another way, Charlie showed me how to soften my heart in another way. Like, I, I learnt how I didn't have to be militant all the while.

• 1:43:37Hakim Tafari?

  I didn't have to be Captain Revolutionary all the time. You remember when Malcolm went to Mecca? And he came back? Malcolm's heart softened. He was still radical, but he wasn't like, kill Whitey and da, da, da, because he had broken bread with every color under the rainbow when he went to do his Hajj. Talking to Charlie and really reasoning and building and really just learning how to maneuver in life as a person and an individual, as a leader,

• 1:44:21Hakim Tafari?

  was much like me going to Mecca and doing my Hajj.

• 1:44:26Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:44:27Hakim Tafari?

  It made me see things in such a bigger picture.

• 1:44:34Rich Roll?

  That's a beautiful gift that he gave you.

• 1:44:37Hakim Tafari?

  For sure.

• 1:44:38Rich Roll?

  I gotta get that guy on the show.

• 1:44:39Hakim Tafari?

  You really, really do. You really, really do. I mean.

• 1:44:43Rich Roll?

  His energy is definitely infectious. There was a lot about what you just shared, though, that I didn't know.

• 1:44:47Hakim Tafari?

  You know, when I tell you.

• 1:44:48Rich Roll?

  Special cat.

• 1:44:49Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, special cat. And I mean, you know, he's worked with a lot of heavy hitters. He's been burnt by a lot of heavy hitters. He's been burnt by a lot of brands. And, you know, the guy is Sir Charlie Docks, OBE now. So I don't know if any of you folks know what OBE and MBE is. Those are awarded to you from the Queen.

• 1:45:12Rich Roll?

  The King now.

• 1:45:13Hakim Tafari?

  The King now.

• 1:45:14Rich Roll?

  Do you get it from the King or the Queen?

• 1:45:16Hakim Tafari?

  Well, he got it from the Queen.

• 1:45:17Rich Roll?

  He did. Okay. So he's been, he's had it for a minute.

• 1:45:19Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, he's had it for a minute. So he's Doctor Docks and he got an honorary doctorate too.

• 1:45:25Rich Roll?

  Order of the British Empire.

• 1:45:27Hakim Tafari?

  Exactly.

• 1:45:28Rich Roll?

  Well, speaking of the DJ piece, I mean, he also kind of. Inspired you to get in front on this and now you've got this radio show like this my analog what is this what is going on with this like YouTube livestream?

• 1:45:43Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:44Rich Roll?

  DJ like residency that you have right now?

• 1:45:47Hakim Tafari?

  Well, I have a radio show, um, one on 1.5 FM Boyle Heights Community

• 1:45:54Hakim Tafari?

  Arts Conservatory. Um, but my analog journal was really a big deal and Charlie, Charlie, if you go on there, you'll see a Charlie episode, but these folks have a YouTube station and they have DJs from all over the world, all over the country. And it's a place in Hackney in London.

• 1:46:14Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:46:15Hakim Tafari?

  They have this live stream and they have all different music. They have Irish folk. They have funk. They have African boogie. They have Mexican psych, all different types. And they have over a million point five subscribers.

• 1:46:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a big channel.

• 1:46:31Hakim Tafari?

  It's a big channel.

• 1:46:31Rich Roll?

  And it's a beautiful set and basically you just do a set, right?

• 1:46:34Hakim Tafari?

  You just do a set.

• 1:46:35Rich Roll?

  And you do what you want.

• 1:46:36Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:36Rich Roll?

  And then it's just up there and available.

• 1:46:38Hakim Tafari?

  So here's where Charlie comes in again, another Charlie story. So I told him that I was gonna start DJing and I really, you know, I was, I was really gunning for like Dub Lab or NTS or lot radios that are, those are underground radio stations. But obviously no one's heard of me. I was new. No one really. And Charlie just kept saying to me, stay the course, trust the process, because I have a different niche with my music. My music isn't the, you know, one, I still play vinyl records and two, my main bag is like spiritual jazz, jazz fusion.

• 1:47:17Rich Roll?

  You're like slipping in spiritual monologues into like jazz riffs and stuff.

• 1:47:22Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have a different niche and he was like, perfect. Again, you've got your own lane. Stick with that lane and keep with it. And, um, you know, he gave me the trust. He was like, you know, people need that right now. So you need to do it. And there's gonna be ways you can do it. And he would give me little tips and he would say, do that, do this. I said, I want to do a radio show. Two weeks later, I got a radio show.

• 1:47:50Rich Roll?

  You're a powerful manifestor. But you got Mr. Miyagi telling you to wax on, wax off over here.

• 1:47:55Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah. And then, and then, and then I made a mix. I made a mix. And, you know, again, when you don't get opportunities, you make your opportunities. And I, and I had an opportunity. I saw this my analog journal. He did it. And I saw him do it and it was incredible. And I was just like, you know what? Let me send them, let me send them out an email. I'm going out there to do the marathon. Let me just try and see what happens. If they say no, I'm good with it. But they didn't say no.

• 1:48:25Hakim Tafari?

  And they were like, well, can you come in? And, and that was like two months. And I was like, no, I can't come. I can't come until the marathon. And, um, lo and behold, I got a bib for the London Marathon. At the age of 50, which was so kismet, because two years ago, or a year ago, I had a conversation with one of my training partners, Jimmy. We were running the LA Marathon Shakeout. I was doing a shakeout run where I was leading a meditation. And, um, we had a conversation. I was like, yeah, I would love to do London when I was, when I, when I become 50. And I didn't know if it was gonna happen. And then it happened. And I got a bib.

• 1:49:09Rich Roll?

  So what do you make of all that?

• 1:49:14Hakim Tafari?

  You know what I mean? So I got to do London when I was 50. And then I called him and I, or I emailed him. I was like, hey, um, I can't do it in two months, but I can come and do it when I come in, when I run London. And I end up doing it and the rest is history.

• 1:49:29Rich Roll?

  Beautiful. And then just the other week, you did the Travis Barker 5K thing with Toby.

• 1:49:36Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:49:37Rich Roll?

  That kind of came out of nowhere and happened really quickly. Like Travis made a teaser little video where he was running and in this Forrest Gump kind of thing. And then it was just sort of like more will be announced. And then suddenly like it seemed like a two weeks later, there was a race.

• 1:49:53Hakim Tafari?

  It was at the Forum.

• 1:49:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:54Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah. And it happened to be at the Forum, the night, the day of their sold out concert.

• 1:50:03Rich Roll?

  Oh, oh, so Blink was playing there that evening.

• 1:50:06Hakim Tafari?

  So there was, there was, there was stuff in the, but we didn't know that.

• 1:50:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:10Hakim Tafari?

  I didn't know that.

• 1:50:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:50:12Hakim Tafari?

  You know, again, being in spaces, Toby's a really good mate of mine. Toby Moss, we all know Toby.

• 1:50:20Rich Roll?

  Friend of the pod.

• 1:50:21Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:21Rich Roll?

  Friend IRL.

• 1:50:22Hakim Tafari?

  Yep. Who's my brother, like my brother, I love that guy. Me and Toby start running.

• 1:50:31Hakim Tafari?

  And you know, Toby's an influencer, man. Toby's an influencer, whether he knows it or not.

• 1:50:36Rich Roll?

  He's an influencer's influencer.

• 1:50:38Hakim Tafari?

  Yes.

• 1:50:38Rich Roll?

  You came out and we made that, that video project.

• 1:50:42Hakim Tafari?

  Which was one of the first times he ran with a group.

• 1:50:45Rich Roll?

  And then I dragged him out and he was like, he didn't like, he was like, I don't really run, you know?

• 1:50:50Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:50Rich Roll?

  But something about that day clicked, right? And then he was like on his running journey all of a sudden. And now he's like all about it.

• 1:50:59Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  But he's an influencer's influencer because he's behind the scenes.

• 1:51:06Hakim Tafari?

  Yes.

• 1:51:06Rich Roll?

  Talking to people that mere mortals don't get to talk to.

• 1:51:10Hakim Tafari?

  Dude.

• 1:51:10Rich Roll?

  And telling them what's what, you know?

• 1:51:13Hakim Tafari?

  Toby is one of those individuals, man. I mean, Toby doesn't know how much power he has, but Toby is, um.

• 1:51:22Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, I really feel like Toby is a reason why Travis is running. And the way that Travis is running is like, I mean, that guy was doing like six fifty minute miles.

• 1:51:32Rich Roll?

  He's a, I mean, he's always been a very good athlete and he's always like worked out.

• 1:51:37Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:38Rich Roll?

  Been very conscious of his health, but the running thing I think is new.

• 1:51:42Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:51:43Rich Roll?

  For Travis.

• 1:51:44Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, and it was such a beautiful thing. Toby makes you feel like a superstar. Whenever you're around Toby, Toby will make you feel like a superstar. So we were hanging out with Toby. It was me, you know, Alex, Alex Buck. Me, Alex, and then Toby's son, who's now running.

• 1:52:01Rich Roll?

  Max.

• 1:52:01Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, Max is running. Toby's wife, Moon, she was walking, but it was a crew of us and then John.

• 1:52:08Rich Roll?

  John Lewis.

• 1:52:09Hakim Tafari?

  John Lewis, badass vegan. Yeah, shout out John, who is bloody huge. I don't remember him being this huge ten years ago, but he's huge. But it was so fun. We got to hang out with Trav. I can say that. I got to hang out with Trav. I've met him a couple of times now. But no, Travis is really cool, very, very cool cat, Kourtney Kardashian, who you know he's married to. And it was a really, really well done event. It was a really well done event, you know, for being in the heart of Inglewood. It was a diverse crowd and it was, it was a really big deal. It was, and for Travis to come and actually run.

• 1:52:49Rich Roll?

  With everybody.

• 1:52:50Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, to run with everyone. It was really cool, man, and it was just really cool. There was a really, it was a really good group of us, you know.

• 1:52:59Hakim Tafari?

  It was very punk rock. It was very punk rock, but it was just really good. I wish you could have been there because it was just, it was good seeing Toby. It was good seeing Toby and Travis, knowing that they have a really great relationship. And now to see them having a relationship around running. It's beautiful.

• 1:53:18Rich Roll?

  It's pretty cool.

• 1:53:19Hakim Tafari?

  It's pretty cool. And I can, I can say that I can pat myself on the back because if it wasn't for me getting Toby in the running and you getting him in the running, we can both pat ourselves on the back that Travis is now running.

• 1:53:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:53:32Hakim Tafari?

  And goodness knows how many more other people are running. So high fives on that.

• 1:53:36Rich Roll?

  I mean, I'm not taking credit for anything here.

• 1:53:38Hakim Tafari?

  You can take credit for that.

• 1:53:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the domino effect. It's a, what it is, is a lesson in understanding that your words and your actions have more power than you might imagine.

• 1:53:54Hakim Tafari?

  Big time.

• 1:53:55Rich Roll?

  Because they can set in motion subtle energies that have influence that ripples out. And you know, it's not dramatic generally, but it's nonetheless the case, right?

• 1:54:06Hakim Tafari?

  For sure.

• 1:54:07Rich Roll?

  And you know, you may never know what that influence is, but understand that it is real, I think, right?

• 1:54:15Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, big time. Big time.

• 1:54:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's cool. It's cool. Well, we gotta wrap this up, dude, but I want to leave people with some kind of spiritual download. I mean, you're on fire, bro. Like you're just dropping crazy, you know, spiritual truisms, hot coins, right? But for someone who maybe is a little bit newer to these sorts of ideas and is interested in deepening their spiritual connection. Maybe instead of a practice, maybe lay out the value proposition.

• 1:54:52Hakim Tafari?

  Hmm. The values are really priceless in the fact that you get to, one, have connections with folks that you may not have had interactions with before.

• 1:55:08Hakim Tafari?

  There's a level of killing the ego. Killing the ego or the ego death. When you're able to somewhat go through ego death, there is somewhat of a opening and a releasing and a revolutionary act that's happening in you. There's a surrendering. And that surrender is a lightning load of your whole existence. There's value in being able to be free of those things. As I said, the dukkhas, the fear, the doubt. And those are natural because we're living in a human existence. Those are natural, but they can be lessened.

• 1:55:54Hakim Tafari?

  They can be lessened with doing certain things like the practice of meditation, the practice of the mindfulness, the practice of just being in, you know, living those good qualities.

• 1:56:11Hakim Tafari?

  The value in it is that you become better stewards of your family. Through this, the relationship with my daughters. I was just telling my therapist this today. My relationship with my daughters now,

• 1:56:33Hakim Tafari?

  because I've learned how to soften my heart. And Tara Brock says, there's a saying in Theravada where it's called a sure heart's release. It's when you fully let your heart open and you just release it. There's lifting that burden off. There's unlocking that cage. Because a lot of us have a cage around our heart mind. And I like to say heart mind because there's a quality of mind within the heart. And there's a lot of us that have that caged. Through these practices, you get to open that heart space.

• 1:57:16Hakim Tafari?

  And that heart space opens up and liberates you even more fully. We're in very chaotic, damaging, detrimental situations where there's a lot of hope being lost and a lot of people's hearts are hardened.

• 1:57:36Hakim Tafari?

  When the antithesis could be if we learned how to soften our hearts, if we learned how to unshackle a lot of those gates that are guarding our hearts, we could be able to think and be more free in our minds and our thoughts. Those are the qualities, those are the values that you have if you can just let go and surrender and be open to what's new and trusting the process. There's a process and it might not seem clear at first. But if you just really learn to understand the heart

• 1:58:20Hakim Tafari?

  and what makes the heart grow fonder and what makes the heart flourish, you can find that liberation. And that's going to open up more doors for you in the way that you maneuver through the world with love, with life, the way you act with your bosses, the way you move through your, your, your business, the way you move through how you treat your wife, your partner. Not being afraid to surrender, not being afraid to let go of what doesn't service you and not being afraid to meet new challenges and face them head on. And not be afraid to move with that same vigor

• 1:59:04Hakim Tafari?

  and that same passion that you might move with if you were getting the best ice cream you ever tasted, or you were getting the best dinner you ever tasted, moving with that same vigor, even in the unknown. Cause you are able to trust yourself and knowing that there is such sweet freedom and liberation behind that.

• 1:59:27Rich Roll?

  Well, Charlie Dark might be your Yoda, but right now, I think you're mine, brother. That was unbelievable.

• 1:59:38Rich Roll?

  That is the way we're gonna end this podcast. Because it's like, it's not gonna get any better than that, everybody, right? Unbelievable, my friend. That was just, that was beautiful. I love you.

• 1:59:48Hakim Tafari?

  Thank you so much. I love you too, brother.

• 1:59:49Rich Roll?

  Thank you for bringing so much conscious, present awareness to this experience today. You're a special cat, my friend.

• 1:59:57Hakim Tafari?

  Thank you, man. That means a lot.

• 1:59:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's an honor to, it's an honor to have you here and to help share your message. I'd love to spend more time with you.

• 2:00:03Hakim Tafari?

  Likewise.

• 2:00:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm, I'm sitting across from you. I'm like, why don't I hang out with this guy all the time?

• 2:00:08Hakim Tafari?

  We're gonna make that happen. We're gonna make that happen.

• 2:00:11Rich Roll?

  Cool. We'll link up all the fun stuff in the show notes, but if you wanna direct people to all the things that you're doing, I know you have, I don't know when this is gonna go up, but I know you're teaching retreats at Spirit Rock, and you've got, you know, all kinds of stuff going on that people can find out about on your website, your Instagram, but where do you wanna send people?

• 2:00:30Hakim Tafari?

  Yeah, I have my website, hakimtafarai.com. My Instagram, which is where people find Between Notes to Hawks Dow. You can find me on Instagram under Hawks Dow. And yeah, my website, which will connect you to my LinkedIn, my SoundCloud. I have a SoundCloud where you can find my mixes. And then I have a radio show every Sunday, 101.5 FM. You can stream it on kqbhla.com. You can find me there and, you know, I, I do wanna give a fundraiser, a fundraiser to certain individuals. Obviously, my daughters, but my friend Jimmy Rage and Shamaan Cassette, and obviously Melinda, my partner.

• 2:01:15Hakim Tafari?

  Those folks have really been pivotal in helping me train, helping me train my mind, helping me train my body, helping me just navigate through the world. And those are some really great people. And my daughters, man, who are, my two of them are gonna come and see me next week from Orlando, which I can't wait. Yeah, and you, Rich, you've always been one of my biggest, biggest supporters. And I really, what you do for the world on a whole is really magical. And I just wanna give you your flowers while I'm here, man. We, we really honor you. And when I say we, I mean we, because you have a community. You have a community and we really honor you and really thank you for what you do for the world.

• 2:02:00Rich Roll?

  Thank you so much. We should also thank Russell Nadal, who was the person who introduced us first. Ah, Russell. Yeah, so shout out to Russell. Shout out to Russell. Hundred percent he's listening to this, so we love you, Russell. Love you, Russell. Thank you, Rich. Until next time. Peace. Peace.

• 2:02:31Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors who keep this podcast running wild

• 2:03:16Rich Roll?

  and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is of course awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiello. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you, Georgia Whaley, for

• 2:03:58Rich Roll?

  copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.

• 2:04:12Hakim Tafari?

  Namaste.