Pod Insights The Rich Roll Podcast Psychiatrist Phil Stutz Knows What’s Wrong With You & Has The Tools To Fix It About this episode Phil Stutz is a renowned psychiatrist, author, and the protagonist in the Netflix documentary “Stutz”.
This conversation explores the intersection of spirituality and Phil’s iconoclastic perspective on personal growth, which emphasizes actionable tools over traditional talk therapy. We discuss Phil’s backstory, his therapeutic philosophy, the drivers of happiness, the importance of embracing reality and uncertainty, the role of faith, finding purpose through service and action, and many other topics.
Along the way, Phil expertly psychoanalyzes me.
Phil is a treasure. And this conversation is a gift. Enjoy!
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Transcript 13,077 words · 2 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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1:05 Phil Stutz? Here's the situation as I see it. No one is satisfied in our culture. The institutions, they're all cracking. The only thing is, the whole culture is designed so you don't realize that.
1:23 Rich Roll? Today, I'm joined by Phil Stutz, a psychiatrist whose unorthodox approach to personal transformation and self-betterment has earned him renown as one of the most beloved and sought-after shrinks in Hollywood, whose client list is a virtual who's-who of celebrated creatives, CEOs, and high performers across a myriad of disciplines. If you saw the Netflix documentary Stutz, then you already know that what makes Phil different is extreme directness, a willingness to confront conventional ideals around happiness, a focus on disciplined action to dismantle negative thought patterns and drive immediate
2:05 Rich Roll? change, in other words, pragmatism, and the importance of connection with higher Forces, spirituality, all underscored by a refusal to let his personal battle with Parkinson's impede his need to help others. This is a conversation about all of that. It's about self-love, emotional independence, balancing individualism and collective responsibility. It's also about finding higher meaning in navigating life's challenges and why spiritual growth and interconnectedness are fundamental aspects of personal development, all of which are themes more thoroughly explored in Phil's latest book, Lessons for Living.
2:47 Rich Roll? Phil is a national treasure, gifted, as you will soon discover, with an uncanny, X-ray-like ability to see people as they truly are, and this conversation is simply one I will never forget.
3:06 Rich Roll? I always get nervous before these things, and you were sharing how you get nervous as a public speaker, and for some reason, I'm like acutely more nervous than normal. I don't know what that is or why. I think it speaks to some perfectionism, control issues that I have because I intentionally, I didn't want to be over-prepared because I wanted to just sit with you and allow it to be whatever it wants to be, which is a bit of a tightrope walk. It's a deeper surrender and letting go, but I felt like that would make for a more organic
3:48 Rich Roll? and authentic and kind of hopefully emotionally resonant experience.
3:53 Phil Stutz? Yeah. Well, here's the situation as I see it. The old models of therapy and a lot of the old models about human nature are wrong. They're particularly wrong now. And the reason is... No one is satisfied in our culture, no one. So you have a lot of people, almost everybody, feeling they didn't get paid, so to speak. And the dissatisfaction is only going to grow. And the reason is, human beings only can feel satisfaction if they're co-creating with the higher forces. It's not like a philosophy or something I figured out.
4:38 Phil Stutz? It's just what I've observed. And that's the secret. That's, you know, the thing, the secret. This is the real secret. You'll never be satisfied if you're doing something in a completely isolated manner.
4:52 Rich Roll? Well, I think there's a lot packed into that. I think there's a sort of twofold thing operating, one of which is the fact that we've seen the kind of denigration of faith organizations in America. And with that comes a lack of spiritual conviction and some kind of tether to something bigger than ourselves. And then layered on top of that is this ethos of America, which is based on rugged individualism. We're all out for ourselves. What can I get? How can I, you know, gird my loins with as much material goods for the sake of power and material accumulation? And that comes at the cost of collective responsibility or, you know, fidelity to
5:36 Rich Roll? something that is larger than ourselves. So I think those two things in concert are sort of at the rot of this lack of connection that we have to something greater than ourselves. And when you look at the mental health crisis that's metastasizing right now with the epidemic of loneliness and the increased rates of self-harm and depression and the like, it's no mystery when you kind of unpack what's at the foundation of our current cultural moment.
6:07 Phil Stutz? Yeah. The only thing is, the whole culture is designed so you don't realize that.
6:15 Phil Stutz? I'm as materialistic as the next person. But, well, here's what happened was when I was a kid psychiatrist and I was being trained, you'd see the other guys and what they would do and how they'd handle their patients. And basically, what I saw was no change. But what pissed me off even more was people would come in and we'd go through the psychoanalytic thing, this was the cause, blah, blah. And then we'd let them leave with nothing, holding their dicks. And at that age, I was even more rebellious than I am now. And it offended me.
6:56 Phil Stutz? I was doing everything else, getting high, whatever, but that was too much for me. And that really set me off in a path, because I was very disillusioned, as I sense you must have been at times.
7:09 Rich Roll? Yeah, I've been in a variety of therapeutic modalities for, you know, I don't know, 30 years at this point.
7:15 Phil Stutz? Where are you from?
7:16 Rich Roll? And I grew up in Washington DC. I've lived in Los Angeles for a long time, though. And I have a story of addiction and recovery, and I've been in recovery for a long time. Was in therapy prior to recovery and have been in therapy ever since. You know, 12-step AA is like my main thing, but I also am involved in men's groups and in therapy myself. But I've had that experience of being with a therapist or a psychiatrist where the practitioner is a neutral observer and you're just there spinning your yarn for, you know, just months on end and never seeming to get kind of any guidance or counsel or relief.
7:57 Rich Roll? You realize this early and often and have a very different approach to the people that you work with.
8:03 Phil Stutz? Yeah, I mean, part of the ethos of what I do is you never let the person leave without something. It could be a tool, it could be just a sense of hope, it could be relating differently to the world, but something that they can actually do. And I'm a little shaky today, I'll show you this.
8:22 Rich Roll? We're gonna get a drawing. Am I gonna be allowed to keep the drawing?
8:25 Phil Stutz? We'll see, we'll see how you do. I don't think there's gonna be a drawing, because my fucking...
8:30 Rich Roll? That's all right. We got all the time in the world.
8:33 Phil Stutz? Okay.
8:35 Rich Roll? So we got a pyramid here with two lines through the middle.
8:39 Phil Stutz? Yeah, so this is the right pathway to look at the world as far as I'm concerned. And it has to do with faith. The bottom of this thing is called faith. Now, people don't understand what faith is. People want to have faith because it's proven to them, which is impossible. The idea is you have to choose to have faith for no reason, without proof, without anything. If you do that, then you can act, which is the second level of the thing. And then, once you can act, then you become confident. See, people think that they can't act until they become confident.
9:25 Phil Stutz? And it's not true at all. It's part X just wanting to paralyze them.
9:31 Rich Roll? So faith at the foundation of the pyramid.
9:33 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
9:34 Rich Roll? Action in the middle.
9:36 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
9:37 Rich Roll? Confidence at the top.
9:38 Phil Stutz? Yeah, and your confidence isn't about any one result. That's a disaster to look at it like that. The confidence comes because you know you're going to repeat the pattern over and over and over again. You have to choose to have faith. And some of the tools are just to help you in that direction.
9:57 Rich Roll? And the tools all being action-oriented because action is the engine of whatever sort of emotional result you're aiming towards, as opposed to upside down, which is the way that most people kind of think of it.
10:10 Phil Stutz? Yeah, I can't believe you said that.
10:11 Rich Roll? Yeah.
10:12 Phil Stutz? Yes, that's right. Upside down would be an upside-down pyramid. And technically, at the bottom of it, oh, I never thought about this before. At the bottom would be...
10:30 Phil Stutz? The ego, oh, and nothing is true unless you can prove it to me. Now, that's the opposite of faith, which is I believe something. Now, it's not a stupid faith, like, you know, following a cult leader or something. But the downward thing says, prove it to me. And technically, it should be, I accept nothing until it's proven. And then, if I succeed, I think I'm smarter than God.
11:00 Rich Roll? Yeah.
11:01 Phil Stutz? So, which means you get nothing.
11:03 Rich Roll? Right. At the end of that equation, there's still no room for faith.
11:07 Phil Stutz? There's still no room, specifically.
11:09 Rich Roll? Yeah, and in a culture in which, you know, faith has been relegated to, you know, the purview of the, you know, sort of outliers, or is not really part of how we consider our world, because we over-index and over-prioritize rationality and intellectualization of everything. We see less and less people who have the openness to kind of entertain anything that is beyond our capacity to understand. And so, I would imagine, in your practice, over many years, you've had occasion to sit with people who need help, who want help,
11:53 Rich Roll? and are willing to do all the things, except when it comes to the higher power part, or the faith part, or the God part, right? Like, that's where, and you see this all the time in AA or 12-step. Like, I just, look, I need to get sober. Like, the higher power thing, you can forget about that. Because people, a lot of people have trauma over the way they were raised, and whatever experiences they had in whatever faith organization that ultimately turned them off to it, which makes that an even harder, you know, sort of thing to bridge with people. So, how do you work with people who are so resistant to that idea?
12:31 Phil Stutz? Well, I would say a couple of different ways. One is just how determined I am. And in a sense, they say, you know, now I'm famous, so it helps even more.
12:45 Rich Roll? Big time.
12:45 Phil Stutz? Thank you. But it was always the same. I would look at the guy and I would say, I wouldn't say, "I'm gonna cure you," I wouldn't say that, but I would say, "I'm a stubborn fuck," which I am, "and I'm gonna stay in this process with you as long as you're willing to stay in it, "and don't believe a word I say. I don't care if you believe it. Do what I tell you, "and then judge it for yourself. And if you're not getting a result that makes you feel like "there's some progress, fire me. In fact, I insist that you fire me." And it's much more persuasive. You gotta mean it, obviously. But I'll tell you about yourself. Can I do that?
13:26 Rich Roll? Yeah.
13:27 Phil Stutz? Okay.
13:27 Rich Roll? This is what I'm here for.
13:30 Phil Stutz? It's so weird, you know, because of the electronic world, and I don't know, "you probably have, what, a million people listening?"
13:36 Rich Roll? I don't know. It's just you and me.
13:38 Phil Stutz? Right, right, right. I feel that.
13:41 Rich Roll? I'm all ears, Phil.
13:43 Phil Stutz? You are so articulate and so smart and so committed to whatever it is that you're, "where you're going. But there's a line you haven't been able to cross. I guess that's the best way to say it."
13:59 Rich Roll? Yeah, that's very perceptive. Now you sound like my wife. This is what my wife is always telling me, "because I can get trapped. The ego will trap me in my skill as somebody who has some verbal acuity, "but it becomes a barrier to growth and expansion. And as much as I have evolved and embraced "spirituality and mystic concepts into my life, I have not done so to the extent "that I think I need or I owe to myself to continue that growth. And I would fully admit to that."
14:40 Rich Roll? So this is an ongoing conversation. My wife is a much more deeply committed spiritually than I am.
14:48 Rich Roll? And it can be a sense of tension because she can see exactly what you just,
14:54 Phil Stutz? Oh.
14:54 Rich Roll? what you just pointed out.
14:56 Phil Stutz? Yeah, I wonder if we should talk a little bit more about it. A lot of information, I think of it as two centers of wisdom or just of the truth. One's here, and that's obviously intellectual and requires proof and has logic in it. And one's here. Now, this one, right, I'm pointing right to this.
15:19 Rich Roll? With the heart, yeah.
15:20 Phil Stutz? Yeah. This one, ultimately, it's very hard for us to understand. It doesn't lend itself to specific conclusions. In other words, what you really want to do is you want to enter the unconscious on a deeper level, but you can't do that and know what the fuck is going on at the same time. It's impossible. In fact, the fact that you think you know what's going on itself becomes an obstacle.
15:43 Rich Roll? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
15:44 Phil Stutz? And we have this thing, the three unavoidable's. And it's unavoidable, if you want to grow for any human being, to accept reality. And reality says, there's going to be pain, there's going to be uncertainty, and there's going to be the demand for you to work consistently for the rest of your life. I don't give a shit if you own a whole country, makes no difference. And semi-related to that is death. And the people that have a fear of death, it's good to look around. I say, look around, every human being you see around you, and they're your brothers
16:27 Phil Stutz? because we're all going to die together, in the sense I'm talking about.
16:33 Rich Roll? I mean, we were chatting before the podcast, and you were kind of jokingly sharing how, you know, because of the documentary, you're in the public sphere in a certain way and have a level of notoriety that is a new experience for you in the last couple of years. And I was sharing with you how I've sort of reached a, you know, a level where I get recognized occasionally, but I feel better equipped to handle it than I would have a handful of years ago because of a bunch of the work that I've done, because I'm not disillusioned by this snapshot idea that arriving at a certain place is going to absolve me of all of my pain. And no matter how far you get, there's still going to be pain, there's
17:18 Rich Roll? still going to be uncertainty, and there will still be the necessity for, you know, constant work. But despite that, you know, I still, like most people, am convinced that if I just get to that next level or get that thing, that I'm going to be just fine and all my problems are going to go away. And part of your practice and working with a lot of high-profile people is disabusing them of that notion. And those three principles are sort of the medicine and the self, right? Like, doesn't matter how rich you are, how powerful, how famous, there will still be pain, there will still be uncertainty, and there will still be the necessity for constant work.
17:57 Phil Stutz? That's correct.
17:58 Rich Roll? Is that what you were getting at?
17:59 Phil Stutz? Fuck you.
18:00 Rich Roll? Yeah, like the idea of the pyramid being upside down.
18:04 Phil Stutz? No, it's brilliant. Yes, it's exactly right. So, a lot of this stuff in our culture is to, people are selling stuff all the time, and what they're selling you is, follow me or buy this product or whatever it is. You're exonerated from the...
18:23 Rich Roll? Yeah, you get to opt out.
18:25 Phil Stutz? Yeah, you get to pass. And that's one of the worst things that's going on. And I would say post-World War II, it's really gotten out of hand. And something that also, for me, has to do with the economics of it. Like, if I make less this year, it has no consequence to me. It's not... But what the people, you know, at our level financially don't understand, well, you understand it, obviously, is that the guy who is, works, maybe he makes sixty, nine thousand dollars a year, he works his ass off and is a good person. If he walks around in terror that his kid is gonna get sick,
19:10 Phil Stutz? fucking terror, which brings us to, because I'm like half in one world and half in the other world, I can see it from both points of view. I don't know the exact numbers, but it's easily, I would say thirty, forty percent of the population. And that's just an example of other things that are happening, which means the institutions that we've always relied on and that we felt, well, there's safety here, there's somebody on my team over here, they're all cracking and they're all corrupt and people don't trust them anymore. So the last bastion of denial, to me, is broken.
19:52 Rich Roll? Right, because that's always been an illusion or a delusion. But now, it's just more evident how delusionary it is that there's some kind of safety or capacity for us to exert control over things we have no control over.
20:06 Phil Stutz? Yeah, that's correct. And the other side of that, I call it institutional corruption, is not the middle level people, because most of them are good people and they do their job. But I know a lot of people on the higher level and they actually think they're exempt from all of this. And because of that, they can't penetrate deeply enough into the other person's experience. And if you can't penetrate into the other person's experience, and I mean from here, that you feel it, if you can't do that, you're out of touch with reality. Which brings us to another point, which is the role of groups. And you're twelve steps, so you understand this.
20:51 Phil Stutz? Only a group, even if it's two people that you're working with, can allow you to have the relationship with these higher forces. They're not meant to be experienced in a singularity. You can try it, maybe it works a little bit.
21:10 Phil Stutz? So that's the world as I see it. And it's funny, the epidemic was, when was that?
21:18 Rich Roll? A couple of years ago, yeah. Four years ago.
21:22 Phil Stutz? But I was retiring just about at that point. And the closer I got to that, the more obvious it was to me that a lot of the ideas, psychological theories, were actually, in some sense, harmful. Because everybody got caught up in this wave. And for a shrink, the wave will express itself through... You know, shrinks are not going to make a lot of money. But what they want is recognition and to be part of a hierarchical system. So we call that universe one.
22:03 Phil Stutz? Universe one, everything is denominated by numbers. That's the world of numbers. So it's the world of science, obviously, and mathematics. And so if the metric is numbers, everything gets down to money because money becomes the only way people can see value. All human beings want value, they want meaning. But in that kind of a culture, universe one, everything is materialistic and everything is comparative or competitive. Because we're not given anything, so you have to reach above that. That's very interesting with you because
22:46 Phil Stutz? you're about as close to the line as possible without crossing it.
22:51 Rich Roll? Meaning, what does that mean?
22:53 Phil Stutz? It means you understand that a lot of the information you get that you need to change has to come from here. It's not an intellectual process. But there's something that's holding you back. It almost feels like you're guilty about something. Are you much more successful than you expected to be?
23:13 Rich Roll? Oh, my God.
23:14 Phil Stutz? Yes?
23:15 Rich Roll? Now we're getting to the good stuff.
23:28 Rich Roll? Yeah, I never thought that I would be successful. So I'm living way beyond anything I dreamed or imagined for myself. So perhaps there's a sense of guilt. I mean, my part X is looming large in the back of my mind, waiting for somebody to break down the door and pull me away from the microphone. And I have a tremendous amount of awareness and gratitude over the position that I'm in, but there's certainly an inner dialogue of unworthiness. And it's that alcoholic thing where on the one hand, I think, I'm really good at this.
24:10 Rich Roll? Maybe I'm better than anyone else at this one thing that I do. And I'm an absolute piece of shit who's undeserving of anything that I've received. And it's only a matter of time before the house of cards is going to just cave in on itself. And I can entertain those two notions simultaneously.
24:27 Phil Stutz? I don't know why you bother to invite me here.
24:30 Rich Roll? I need you. I'm looking for a spiritual breakthrough, Phil. I have a very good relationship with faith and spirituality, but I know that there's a lot more growth available to me. And I do feel like I dance around the periphery of that. And yet, my intellect and my ego and my reverence for rationality, I think, holds me back. Like, I'm a product of higher education and I was indoctrinated in a certain way in which to-
25:05 Phil Stutz? Were your parents teachers or something?
25:06 Rich Roll? No, but they, my dad's a lawyer. I grew up in Washington DC and education was a very fundamental priority in our household. And it was a very achievement oriented household. And I've had ups and downs in my trials and tribulations, but ultimately-
25:24 Rich Roll? It's a game that I was able to be successful at. And I think I have an ego attachment to that and some pride. But that becomes like we were talking about earlier, like a barrier to, I think, more exponential growth. It's not, I'm not averse to it. I'm open to it, but there's something that maybe is a little too scary.
25:45 Phil Stutz? Did your parents care about your grades or anything like that?
25:48 Rich Roll? Oh, big time. Yeah. Yeah, there was a lot of projection and like emotional transference in that, like, you know, my, my value. I mean, my parents just wanted good things for me. And it's not that they were wrong-headed in that. It's just when that is the messaging where achievement is a proxy for love. It's not a mistake that then you become an achievement-seeking, ambitious person as a result in an unhealthy way.
26:22 Phil Stutz? I mean, one of my tasks, as far as I'm concerned, is to teach people to find value in themselves without totally buying the, the lie. And again, the lie is you can be exhilarated from these, these things. I'm also a big freak on failure.
26:44 Rich Roll? Failure is a growth opportunity to learn.
26:48 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
26:48 Rich Roll? Because failure is the teacher. Success perpetuates the delusion.
26:53 Phil Stutz? Yeah, that's, that's correct. You have this situation where no one's satisfied. Everybody wants more. I, I was talking to somebody about this yesterday, about doctors and lawyers, like, again, this is something, most people, unless you're a doctor, you, you wouldn't actually think about this. But let's say a doctor kills himself. He, he has 12 years of training. And it used to be, like in New York City, you even got empty plates.
27:25 Rich Roll? Yeah, yeah.
27:26 Phil Stutz? Uh huh. So it was a status thing. And the salaries were relatively commensurate one with the other. And then things started to shift. And now, this is not true of every doctor, but now you have a lot of them that say, well, I make 250 or 350. And my friend over here that says, show business lawyer makes 1.7 million or 11 million, whatever it is, and there's a gap. Now, that's the same problem. I'm getting screwed and I'm dissatisfied with life that the doctors would have. And it's actually affected the practice of medicine.
28:09 Phil Stutz? It would be hard for a layperson to understand this, but I know what's in these guys' minds. Not all of them, because there are a lot of great people in medicine, but I would say about half of them. They use a metric of money to drive them through their days, and they can't ever catch up. So if you watch them in a hospital, they're moving very fast. And instead of writing down their diagnoses, they have to put it into a computer. Now, they would say, well, it's just efficient. And it is more efficient, but it's also less human. And my whole trip is not be a nice person, be more. That's not my thing, because it won't work.
28:54 Phil Stutz? My thing is you've got to have power and a potential if you want to exercise it and find out what it is. And that's where you find out what it is. You have to be willing to go into the unknown. This becomes useless. And you have a question about, if you did give yourself over to it, what would happen? And it may be more what would happen to, or you have fear of what would happen to other people. I don't even know so much if the fear is what would happen to you. But if I was treating you, and don't get any ideas, I would try, see, there's this thing called the world of small things.
29:37 Phil Stutz? And if you want to change somebody in this area where they have to let go, it's better for them to practice in the smallest thing, the smallest little piece of it.
29:47 Rich Roll? Right.
29:48 Phil Stutz? And then hopefully you can expand it more. Close your eyes for a second. Just imagine that all the success and everything was taken away from you suddenly unexpectedly. Forget about why or how it was taken away, but now you're naked. And tell me what you see. Is there something about you that becomes more apparent?
30:17 Rich Roll? Hmm.
30:19 Phil Stutz? Can you tell me?
30:20 Rich Roll? Yeah, it's a, it's a couple of things. I mean, one, it's certainly scary because I do have, you know, an attachment to what I do. And so it feels very much like a threat to take that away. Who am I if not for the things that I do? How will I be perceived? Like an unhealthy relationship with like extrinsic opinion? Like who am I without this thing? A sense of uselessness or inconsequence if I don't have this? But also, at the same time, relief?
31:02 Phil Stutz? Ah.
31:03 Rich Roll? I don't have to hold up something.
31:05 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
31:05 Rich Roll? But I know what you're getting at, which is you are worthy just for who you are. And your worthiness or your deservedness to be loved or to love yourself has nothing to do with what you do.
31:20 Phil Stutz? Ultimately, it has nothing to do with it, yeah. Can you think of a time in your life where this, the dynamic was shifted a little bit? Because there's like a master up there. I don't know what the word for it. It's like a cosmic boss. And I don't sense that you're scared of him, but I sense you're looking to serve him, but you're looking for the wrong person.
31:47 Rich Roll? Hmm.
31:48 Phil Stutz? Or it's not really a person.
31:51 Rich Roll? Well, I have an answer to that. I don't know if that answer is a story or it's truth, but, you know, I've lived a couple of different lives. But as a young person, I was definitely a very...
32:03 Rich Roll? Insecure, lonely, sensitive kid who struggled to make friends and really couldn't figure out how to plug into the world like that thing that you hear in AA. Like, everyone had a roadmap for life and I felt like I was lacking. And I found sport through swimming as a young person that gave me an outlet in something that I had some facility for. And I got good at that and I got self-confidence from that. And that spilled into the classroom because I wasn't a very good student and became a very competent young person and got into all the fancy colleges and competed in swimming at a high level. Then alcoholism
32:45 Rich Roll? destroyed all of that and took everything away from me and took me to some pretty dark places where my only companion was like shame, guilt, embarrassment. And I got sober and rebuilt my life, but tried to plug back into the machine. But that was always a square peg trying to jam into a round hole until I had an existential crisis over what I was doing with my life. That also coincided with a health scare. And then I basically proceeded to reinvent my life again. And I found this thing that has given me meaning, but ultimately a sense of purpose and fulfillment because I get to give it back. Like what we're doing
33:27 Rich Roll? here, we get to share. Yeah, we get to share it. And I've written books, et cetera, and other things. But like this thing that we're doing, it's nourishing to me, but it's also an act of service that is helpful to other people. And that's given me a sense of purpose and, and direction that's very meaningful to me, that has a spiritual component to it. Because on some level, it's in intangible and it's also not something I planned. It was something that resulted from my own spiritual inquiry. It's an outgrowth of that. So it feels very healthy in that regard. But then as it becomes more successful, the ego enters the picture and I start thinking about. You know, well, what's the other podcaster doing? And how come mine isn't like this?
34:12 Rich Roll? And what if we do this and we can grow and be bigger? So all of that, you know, we live in a capitalist society and this is a business. So part of that is just being an entrepreneur and being, you know, smart in terms of how we're directing this business. But fundamentally, at its core, this is a spiritual enterprise. And I try to hold on to that and not let those other things, the trappings interfere with the essence of what this is.
34:41 Phil Stutz? Okay.
34:41 Rich Roll? And maybe that's honest. And maybe you can point out to me where I'm missing the bigger picture or where I'm caught up in my own story.
34:49 Phil Stutz? I don't like to do that, I'll be honest. I like to see where you are now, see the gut level instinct that you have to where you, where you need to go and then teach you to identify where the obstacle is and then teach you what to do in the smallest terms possible because you're fighting something. But before we get into that, here's the dilemma of the human race. Everybody, it's, there's no going backwards with this. Everybody wants to be an individual and they want to be recognized as an individual and they want to have some props and a lot of times it's money, but not, not always.
35:34 Phil Stutz? And that's necessary. So that's a singular, individual set of goals. They will never satisfy you unless you have the opposite awareness and the opposite goal, which is to enhance the group or the collective. So, so, and see, everybody thinks it has to be one or the other. It can't be one or the other. It has to be both. And there's only one way you can take the individual and, and the collective and not have them clash with each other. And that way, I studied Rudolf Steiner. Do you know anything about him?
36:10 Rich Roll? Yeah.
36:10 Phil Stutz? Okay.
36:12 Rich Roll? So he's- He's the Waldorf guy.
36:13 Phil Stutz? Yeah. So he said, there's only one way you can make a freely willed decision, which, and that's the individual self, free will, and at the same time fit into the group, which is the opposite of that. And he says, that solution is sacrifice. But it has to be a choi- you have to choose to sacrifice. It's simpler choosing to have faith. If you choose to have sacrifice, but you don't have to choose it, but you in a freely-willed sense, you choose it, then you're both. So because you've chosen it, then that means that there's an individuality to it. I decide to do this.
36:57 Phil Stutz? But at the same time, because you're choosing to sacrifice, you're automatically giving something to the group. And this is, it's a little abstract, but it's really, the whole thing that I've developed is so that you can be in the middle and straddle those two opposites.
37:20 Rich Roll? Yeah, those opposites can live in concert with each other. Like, I feel like I've found a way to do that with this thing. But I think to your point of finding meaning and finding purpose, like, your whole thing is like, if someone comes to you and they're like, "I got my bills paid, but like, I don't feel like I have a purpose, or I'm unfulfilled in my career, or I don't know what I'm doing." The answer to that question isn't a philosophical one as much as it is an action-oriented one. And the only way to figure out that for yourself is to make decisions, to take actions, and to move forward. And to the extent that you can, we all have something to give and something to offer. We all have our own unique experiences.
38:02 Rich Roll? And when you can tether what you've learned along your path, your life path, to something that is helpful to somebody else, I mean, you characterize it as sacrifice, but it's really just service, right? Can you find a channel or a vehicle to give back in some way? That's the path to fulfillment, and that is an action-oriented path. And if you can, you know, I have the incredible rare You know, situation or gift where I can marry that with a business enterprise. So, which is like an incredible, you know, it's just, I can't believe I get to do this thing that I love that actually has a service piece to it, but actually can support my family. It's just a remarkable set of circumstances that I wish everybody could have.
38:47 Rich Roll? But I think in some way, everybody can find a way to tether those two things in a way that gives them a sense of meaning and that satisfaction that comes with whatever small sacrifice it is. But that's anathema to the incentives of our culture, which is all about me, me, me. Right? And in truth, all these things that we're lacking and that we're seeking are on the other end of sacrifice and service, which those are kind of edicts that are at odds with the incentivization structure of like, modern culture.
39:21 Phil Stutz? Yeah. And you know who the devil is?
39:25 Rich Roll? Who's that?
39:26 Phil Stutz? The devil is the one that says, "Give me $22 and you won't be subject to this whole thing."
39:34 Rich Roll? The opt-out, my program. Here are the 10 things you can do and you won't have to worry about all this stuff that everybody else who's in human form has to deal with.
39:42 Phil Stutz? You know what I was thinking when I was driving up here? I was thinking, this is gonna be a thing about, I thought it was gonna have a veneer of depth and, um, what was the term? And meaning, but it really, it was just, what do you call it? A sheep's?
40:03 Rich Roll? A wolf in sheep's clothing? Well, I was gonna, I was gonna try to get you? What do you mean?
40:10 Phil Stutz? Yeah, it was, "I'm gonna sell you this thing and it's gonna exonerate you from these unpleasant things." And in the exoneration of it, you'll actually think that you're creating real meaning. So the question is, how is, and you're not. You're, um, you know, it's like eating plastic food and, and...
40:35 Phil Stutz? Here's my measure for this. Human beings are at their best in a crisis. And the worse the crisis is, the more important it is. I almost, when I, I don't really work anymore. But when I used to work, I would like skip. I was the opposite of all these shrinks. I would say, what caused this? I would say, fuck everything except the worst crisis you ever went through in your life. And what you find yourself able to do in that crisis is a mark or a leading edge towards, if you want to say, human potential. That's when you really find out what humans are capable of.
41:16 Phil Stutz? But the other thing that, you know, you may find this dogmatic, but I still don't think anybody can do this successfully without some higher force, even if they don't know exactly what it is.
41:30 Rich Roll? My wife calls that your divine moments. Like, don't rob people of their divine moments. When I look back over my life, those deep crises that I had to weather have been not just the greatest teachers, but really the launchpads for like all the growth and all the experiences that I've had as a result. It's like, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but I also wouldn't trade it for anything else. And we have this instinct as empathetic, compassionate humans, when we have a loved one or someone we care about is going through something difficult, to rush in and help them solve the problem.
42:10 Rich Roll? Whereas the gift might be to step aside and be an observer and say, I love you and I trust you to find your way through this. Because that experience can be the crucible for something beautiful and magnificent. But you have to allow that person to go through it, which can be painful when, you know, because no one wants to see someone they care about having a difficult time.
42:40 Phil Stutz? I'm just semi crying because one of my, one of my nurses has a grandson who's 19, black.
42:54 Phil Stutz? Highly talented as a painter, like I think really talented. And he's raised by his grandmother, basically, and he's starting to fall backwards. Let me put it this way, this kid was 18 years old, they were in one of these clubs or something, and guns were drawn, and everybody ran away except this kid because his friend was shot. That's the kind of person he is. But he's starting to fall apart now. I'm gonna see if I can talk to him today.
43:28 Rich Roll? Because of the experience of that trauma or other things?
43:32 Phil Stutz? I think the trauma just clarified what was going on. His thing is, I'm not good enough, like, you know, we all have that. But he has no fucking help, which brings up a whole other thing. And you're right, you know, the saddest thing is, you know, you personally can't really save the person from that. Anyway, he made an attempt, a couple of attempts. And I know the talent, because people are walking into my house all the time. And it's like the talent is like a trick someone's playing on him, because he knows he has the talent too. But something, you know, it's funny, it's on a different level, it's what you're going through.
44:17 Phil Stutz? It's another version of it. The person has the talent, but something's stopping him. You're a little bit professorial, and you enjoy it, and you're good at it. You understand what I mean by that?
44:31 Rich Roll? I think so, keep going.
44:36 Phil Stutz? I rest my case. See, your thing is not selfishness, it's the opposite of selfishness. See, the good fortune, where you have a job that also gives out to the world? Well, let me ask you something different. What is your wife's biggest complaint about you? What'd you say?
45:01 Rich Roll? That I over-intellectualize and that I over-prioritize rationality and that I'm missing the gift of deepening my relationship with the beyond and that that becomes a barrier to deeper intimacy with her and that because she's so more invested in that or perhaps mature in that regard, that it prevents me from seeing her or the desire to see her as she truly is. So that creates a disconnect in our relationship.
45:44 Rich Roll? Like, we could have a deeper, more intimate bond if I would relinquish my fear or the walls that I throw up around that terrain.
45:57 Phil Stutz? You just have to face the fact, though, that your fears are going to manifest as power. I mean, people must have told you this before. You just have the natural aura of power. And it got a little bit... You abandon yourself. That's the best way to say it.
46:16 Rich Roll? Like, I leveraged it to get to a point, and then I abandoned it because everything sort of worked out.
46:22 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
46:22 Rich Roll? Yeah.
46:23 Phil Stutz? That's why...
46:23 Rich Roll? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
46:24 Phil Stutz? And that can be bad love. See, the whole idea of what I try to train people is it's one of those unavoidable, endless works. And you have to... Not only do you have to accept that, you have to act on it. And not only do you have to act on it, you have to ask yourself, how would I act on it today? Because whatever it is, I'm going to have to... That's why it doesn't matter whether it's success or failure. I have to stay on that level. And that's called poverty. If you were not working on something in the spiritual world, and we worked hard, we had a good working relationship, all that stuff. So we were satisfied, and then we went to sleep.
47:10 Phil Stutz? When we woke up, we'd have nothing.
47:14 Phil Stutz? That's called poverty and then you gotta build it up again and again.
47:18 Rich Roll? Yeah, that's a that's a that's a practice that requires diligence. I think like in an AA context, an analogous or a way to kind of understand what you're saying. If I and correct me if I'm wrong, is this idea that you come in in so much pain and so broken and so raw that you have no other recourse other than to surrender.
47:44 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
47:45 Rich Roll? To ask for help, to receive help and to develop a relationship with something bigger than yourself. You have a receptivity, but then you build that foundation of sobriety and you repair your life. And then suddenly everything's fine and it becomes very difficult to maintain that relationship with spirituality like that. Surrender turns into a reclaiming of yourself well. And suddenly you think you're in control. And this is like, this is like the, you know, a dilemma that I'm, you know, I would admit to being, you know, part of like, it's not that I don't understand the importance of these things,
48:27 Rich Roll? but it becomes harder to stay emotionally connected with that level of openness that I had when I was in a state of desperation.
48:40 Phil Stutz? I'll tell you right now, the key to this whole thing is your wife.
48:44 Phil Stutz? Cause she's a tremendous ass.
48:46 Rich Roll? She would agree with you. Yeah.
48:50 Rich Roll? She is. She is. Um, yeah, we were talking about it the other day as a matter of fact.
48:57 Phil Stutz? Now, that's not good enough, but it's good for you to know.
49:02 Rich Roll? Yeah, it doesn't mean that I've translated it into any action. So what do I do, Phil? What, what? What is the tool? What is the action step that I can take?
49:12 Phil Stutz? Good question. There's a thing called a reverse indicator, which is an unpleasant feeling that says you're making progress. And the two classic reverse indicators are guilt and shame. So one of the things you're gonna have to do is, it's like I need to be in the reverse indicator space.
49:36 Phil Stutz? Which is the unpleasant space. So, we'll try now, close your eyes for a second. Imagine that your wife is saying, you know, just what you mentioned before. Talking about you. Now, let her insight penetrate you like it's a force, not an idea. Like right into the solar plexus of your heart. Good, that's good. What just happened?
50:10 Rich Roll? I think there's a knowingness that what she's sharing, like the mirror that she's holding up to me is correct, but it's a reflection that I'm actively trying to avoid. And yet I know that that is the path that I need to take in order to continue to grow and expand. But it's so easy to stay in this place because everything is working really well. And so I don't feel the incentive or the, there's a lack of will
50:51 Rich Roll? to like entertain the difficulty of grappling with that. But also the understanding that I need to do that. So there's that tension which creates dissonance and discomfort. But what I really mourn or what I really feel is the level of intimacy that I could experience with my wife that I'm lacking right now because I'm avoidant.
51:19 Phil Stutz? Okay. In a case like this, which is not that unusual, what's unusual about you is the intensity of your will and the intensity of your intellect. And also, you're pretty intuitive. Maybe you don't have confidence in it, but that's pretty strong as well. It's almost like you've checked all the boxes. You're wildly successful, but in this particular area.
51:50 Phil Stutz? You're holding your dick and it was, you don't feel, you feel impudence in this. Now, the way to correct that is, thinking about it doesn't move you. The way, the only way that I know that you can deal with it is every time you feel either that you don't want to be bothered with this, or you don't think you can do it anyway, or sometimes maybe you have an issue with your wife. You want to look for those moments. And every time you find one of those moments, you have to dissolve your ego, even if it's just for a second.
52:33 Phil Stutz? One way I do this is I tell people, it's called flying under the banner of ignorance. And you know, it's like a joke because of these movies and everything. But I mean it, you know, when I say,
52:46 Phil Stutz? do what I tell you, I don't care what you believe, it doesn't make any difference. We're opening up a different way of experiencing the world and of experiencing you. And the difference is, it's a, it's a power that can't be defined in words. It's strictly, it's like, it comes back to the same thing, I use the trust your instincts. You trust them tremendously, except for this one area. But anyway, I want you to make sure you get this. Your job is, you know, you're like those guys at the beach with those vacuum cleaners who try to pick up quarters? That's what you're doing, that's your job now.
53:30 Phil Stutz? Only you're not trying to pick up quarters, you're trying to identify those situations in which your intellect tries to take over. And it must happen with your wife, I would assume.
53:46 Rich Roll? Yeah, she's, it certainly happens with my wife. And the intellect can be a barrier and an effective tool in my avoidant strategy. Because my part X, you know, my wife is saying, "Come closer," right? And my part X is telling me, "If you show her who you really are, she's going to divorce you." Like she's gonna, because you're fundamentally unlovable.
54:18 Rich Roll? That if she knew the real you, and so you can all erect a strategy to move close enough towards her, but just shy of any danger zone.
54:31 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
54:32 Rich Roll? Yeah. And I would imagine that's a common, this is a common thing.
54:36 Phil Stutz? No, you're the only person I've ever been.
54:49 Phil Stutz? Well, you've dumped a lot of shit on me today.
54:52 Rich Roll? Yeah, I know.
54:54 Rich Roll? I know you don't like it when people dump shit on you, but like, this is the life you signed up for.
55:01 Phil Stutz? But let me go over this again for you. In order for you to actually do this, to really do it, because I don't give a fuck about anything else, either you do it, do it means whatever the barrier is you're breaking, and on the other side of that barrier, you're gonna find uncertainty, you're definitely gonna find guilt, you'll find some confusion, and most of all, you're gonna find the I-don't-know bit of it. I call it, I told you this, this is like flying under the banner of ignorance. So every time, anything, first of all, anytime she says anything to you about yourself,
55:47 Phil Stutz? but second of all, when it comes up inside you spontaneously, either way, you have to, it's like Clark Kent, you know, changing in a very close thing, fumbles.
56:07 Phil Stutz? And you can't, you can't fake this, you have to, that's why the world of small things is so important. You have to look for a small event where you could capitulate to her. Not, not abstractly, not saying I agree, forget about that. You have to actually do something. Now, there's two kinds of action, there's outer action, and there may be nothing to do, but there's also interaction, which is, which is the truth. So every time, and when I say every time, I mean every time this comes up in you.
56:46 Phil Stutz? You have to change the dynamic with her. And most people think, well, it's not gonna work because it's too passive, whatever. It's not big enough. And the trick in this kind of thing is, you know what you could even do? When she's telling you this stuff about yourself, try to literally, physically feel yourself shrink. In the most physical way possible. Because what you wanna do is, you know, one tool is act of love, do you know that?
57:21 Rich Roll? Uh huh.
57:22 Phil Stutz? So, just for the audience, act of love means you imagine the universe is made out of love. And at a certain point, to think of love as a substance, because if it's a thought, you could argue about it, but as a substance, you can't. It's, um,
57:43 Phil Stutz? it's just out there. It's like a fruit, there's some kind of substance coating everything. Anyway, the first step is, you take all this love and you bring it right in here, as if you could concentrate all love in the universe. And you think of love as a substance, you bring it in here. So it's almost like the whole universe of love is living right here for a second. That's called concentration. The next step, you take the love you've concentrated, you send it to her. And you don't hold anything back. You give everything away to her. And then the most important part of the tool
58:27 Phil Stutz? is, it's almost, you have to send it to someone at a distance. You wanna enter the other person and become one with them. But anyway, the point of it is, you're trying to create a sense of wholeness by giving love away, even if you don't agree with the person. It has nothing to do with any kind of theory. Act of love is a constant giving, and it can't be blocked. This product tries to block it because it's not up here. It's almost like a reflex.
59:02 Rich Roll? Right. I mean, it's a form of loving kindness.
59:06 Phil Stutz? Yeah, yeah. But you're nasty, you know. It's like, there's a difference between saying, this is what I'm gonna do today, versus actually doing it.
59:13 Rich Roll? Yeah.
59:16 Rich Roll? Yeah, yeah, the action part.
59:19 Phil Stutz? Yeah, it's an action universe. I said that if a guy comes up with a philosophy in the modern world, not in the ancient world, and it doesn't end in action, it's no philosophy at all. The highest thing that defines the intrinsic qualities of being alive is instant. I once had this vision for a second of the whole genesis of the universe, and at the end of it, you keep stripping the layers off, stripping the layers off. Finally, at the end of it, there's no physical bodies, there's nothing in the universe.
1:00:03 Phil Stutz? All there is is a voice with no, it's not coming from anywhere. It's like the universe was born for no apparent reason. The form in which it was born was a voice. And you can, that's in the Bible a little bit. It's like, why did God say, let there be light? Why would he have to say anything? He was God, you know?
1:00:28 Rich Roll? This voice or like pure consciousness is spiritual energy. The reductive nature of like trying to explain everything in terms of like dopamine and protocols for behavior, which are helpful and very action oriented, but miss the bigger picture, which is like the divinity of everything.
1:00:49 Phil Stutz? Yeah. Yeah, the bigger picture is you don't know shit within that.
1:00:54 Rich Roll? Right, that's it.
1:01:01 Rich Roll? So we took a little break, you got a more comfortable chair. We had a whole podcast in the interim about... Divinity and meaning and all kinds of stuff. Also, you know, a personal session for me, which I found very helpful. And I'm thinking about the reflection that you shared with me, you know, only a few minutes into this podcast where I felt like you could see me and see things about me that only somebody who knows me deeply and for a long period of time would have been able to see. Like that acuity, like that insight that you have. Is that a gift that you've always had? Did that just develop through spending time with so many people?
1:01:47 Phil Stutz? No, I actually had, I had it at birth.
1:01:51 Rich Roll? Your whole life?
1:01:53 Phil Stutz? Yeah, yeah, I've had it my whole life.
1:01:55 Rich Roll? It's like an extrasensory capability that you have.
1:01:59 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
1:02:01 Rich Roll? And there is a, there is a divinity in that because it's non-material. It's an intangible thing.
1:02:08 Phil Stutz? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I drew you a picture there. You want a picture?
1:02:12 Rich Roll? Yeah, I do.
1:02:13 Phil Stutz? Always say yes.
1:02:13 Rich Roll? I want as many pictures as you can draw.
1:02:16 Phil Stutz? Well, these aren't very intelligible. Okay.
1:02:22 Phil Stutz? Yeah, it's a paradox. See, I think this might help you actually because it's a, it's a pictorial representation of what has to happen in any relationship, not just a spouse or a romantic one. So let's say this is you and we'll put Julie over there. See, the most important thing in the next, I wouldn't say 50 years, is going to be human beings understanding the effect that they have on each other. And what I say is it's like anything else in nature. It really is not A over here and it's not B over there.
1:03:06 Phil Stutz? The reality is it's some, somewhere in the middle. And even that middle point is moving back and forth. That's what it really means is it's a dynamic universe. Anyway, now, should I just shoot this over to you?
1:03:21 Rich Roll? Yeah, let me see that. Let's see.
1:03:24 Phil Stutz? Okay.
1:03:24 Rich Roll? So the first picture is, is me and Julie stick figures, arrow pointing from me to her and an arrow pointing from her to me in kind of a circular fashion. And then you drew another. Couple stick figures with arrows pointing upwards out of both of our heads towards what looks like a cloud or a circle.
1:03:43 Phil Stutz? Yeah, that's called the higher bond. The higher bond is real, even though you can't see it. It's not just a concept.
1:03:54 Phil Stutz? And in a relationship, what you need is not, I'm gonna go for my thing and you go for your thing. It's that we, each of us, we dissolve into... The bottom line reality of our identity is this higher bond up here. And the higher bond is real. And this will help you with her. So your job is not to agree with her or disagree with her at any given point in the discussion. Your job is to say, there's this thing up here. And my job is not directly related to my wife. It's related to this bond. It's beyond any one person.
1:04:40 Phil Stutz? So, and it's so funny, you know, the romanticism of the West, especially in the United States. That says, like the whole marriage cult or whatever you wanna call it. That says that the singular person, namely the bride, is nothing. The relationship itself is this thing up here, which forms a unity.
1:05:08 Phil Stutz? And you can extrapolate that higher bond thing to groups. This is where something's gonna happen to you. I don't know what it is yet, but I could feel it. You have a natural authority. And we don't wanna get rid of that, but we don't wanna misuse it either. So misusing it means I have all these talents and plus a...
1:05:33 Phil Stutz? Authoritative presentation. And it's as if that's good enough, and it's not. So remember the thing where I told you about the human dilemma is to be have a singular goal, but at the same time contribute to the group and submit to the group. Well, that's true in a large group, but it's also true in a
1:06:01 Rich Roll? In a relationship.
1:06:02 Phil Stutz? Yeah, in a relationship. Okay, so how do you actually put that into effect? You put it into effect when the flow is interrupted. And the classic interruption is when the guy's wife says, I see you. I know who you really are. And the guy gets defensive. See, you have to see that whether you agree or disagree with every detail. You have to view your wife and your presence or her presence, either way, is a structure that transcends either of you. So you have to ask yourself, what would I do that would put me in the upward arrow
1:06:46 Phil Stutz? towards the higher bond? Not what would you over here, you stepped on my foot, pal? That's not contributing. You can see it in geopolitics now, but you have something to do. How old are you?
1:07:00 Rich Roll? Fifty seven.
1:07:02 Phil Stutz? If on the way home I discover what it is, I'll call you.
1:07:05 Rich Roll? Yeah, please do. That's super helpful, though, and comforting and also just nice that I feel like I have a tool or a direction for behavior as opposed to just a broader understanding of the dynamic without inadequate sense of like how to shift it or what to do about it.
1:07:30 Phil Stutz? Yeah, I can pretty much guarantee you when you understand something really well, she's getting pissed off. I mean, I know it sounds counterintuitive, but
1:07:41 Rich Roll? But there's real beauty in that contrast. Like it is a one plus one equals far more than two, the dynamic. And I want that intimacy. I want that deeper connection. Of course I want that, but I get in my own way, as I often do with many things.
1:08:00 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
1:08:00 Rich Roll? You know.
1:08:01 Phil Stutz? If you're really serious about this, though, the key is work. And some of that is actually is also writing. So I used to think writing was bullshit because there was no action. And then as I started to get older, I saw that there are different kinds of ways to look at the same event. So what you have to do now, I'll show you another trick with this. What you have to do now is simultaneously experience both ends of that spectrum at the same time. Now, I'll take you through it and you'll understand the better after we go through it. Okay, so close your eyes now.
1:08:45 Phil Stutz? First, I want you to think of yourself as somebody who's really angry. If you can think of a time in your life when that was the case, so much the better. But the key is the feeling of it. Don't try to figure out what it is, it's a mistake. Just focus on the feeling. So that's whole category one. Now erase that. See, just a blank space. Now, create the opposite, which is your very loving, giving, almost to a fault. Again, just see what that feels like in your body. Okay, keep your eyes closed.
1:09:29 Phil Stutz? Now go back to category one, which is the anger. So don't worry about what's causing it, make it intense. Good. Kill that now, go back to neutral. Now go to category two, which is the codependent, overly giving, sensitive part. Okay, now I'm going to ask you to do something. And don't do anything now, but when I tell you to do it, I want you to do it immediately. Don't worry about if you're doing all right, forget about that. But do this immediately. Okay? You ready? Hit them both at the same time, don't think.
1:10:11 Phil Stutz? Good. Okay, open your eyes. Can you tell me what that felt like?
1:10:15 Rich Roll? Hmm.
1:10:18 Rich Roll? Well, there's an intensity to it. There's also
1:10:24 Rich Roll? something exhausting about it. Like it's a massive outpouring of energy in confusing ways.
1:10:33 Rich Roll? That feels very depleting and not productive.
1:10:39 Phil Stutz? Yeah. So it's category three because you usually carry well, I just call it category one and category two. So one is negative, hostile. Which you're not, were you in touch with that part of yourself?
1:10:55 Rich Roll? I'm not, I'm not like prone to anger. That's like not really a thing.
1:11:01 Phil Stutz? What do you think of is the opposite of anger?
1:11:05 Rich Roll? The opposite of anger?
1:11:09 Rich Roll? Gratitude? I mean, if anger is is driven by a sense of righteousness at having been wronged in some level of victimhood that is, you know, kind of underscored with fear. Gratitude is a sense of the universe being abundant and that, you know, life is made of good things and possibility.
1:11:31 Phil Stutz? Okay, so one way to use this, because everything we're talking about,
1:11:38 Phil Stutz? when you're getting out of sync with her, forget about the content of what she's complaining about. You want to go into this mode. By doing that, you're correcting your psyche. In other words, because you can see the human problems, especially with you, where it's pretty extreme. It's your natural authority is so strong. I don't believe you could turn it off. And we don't want to turn it off. But what we do want to do See, Part X is the avatar of impossibility. And flow is when you can connect two opposites at the same time.
1:12:21 Phil Stutz? There's a famous quote, I think by Scott Fitzgerald. Did you hear that?
1:12:25 Rich Roll? I don't think so.
1:12:26 Phil Stutz? He says, "The evidence that you're dealing with a really great mind is when it can hold two opposites simultaneously in its mind." And the reason for that is it creates flow. So to try to connect everything, you could say flow is both the, let's say, reward for doing this work, but simultaneously, it allows you to give even more to other people. But the main thing with you is what you do every single time.
1:13:07 Phil Stutz? If you just said, "There it is, again, she's bothering me, she's trying to force me." And you just said in your mind, "Yeah, if you said something like, 'I'm okay with who I am,'" or you could say, "I think you're 100% right." You have to have a consistent, endless commitment to make her, the state of mind that she's in that affects you, to make that your goal. Your goal is to let her win.
1:13:44 Rich Roll? Yeah, I mean, my goal is to have a deeper, more intimate relationship with her. And so when I feel those emotions, those avoidant emotions cropping up, to do the opposite, which is to like move towards her and towards it, rather than... My impulse, which is to like recoil or retreat. You know, that's a very alcoholic thing like I want to isolate, like I don't want to confront tricky emotions. I think we all on some level, you know, have our version of that experience, like the things that we need to work on that are calling us, that are the portals into, you know, evolution
1:14:28 Rich Roll? and, you know, greater awareness and self-understanding are the things that we don't want to look at because they're uncomfortable, because those are Achilles heels or, yeah, but they, if you don't confront them or look at them, they only grow stronger and at some point, you know, reveal themselves in your life in ways, you know, none of us want, right? So the solution is always to move towards the thing that you know you're avoiding or don't really want to deal with. Yeah.
1:14:58 Phil Stutz? That's correct. I'll give you another.
1:15:00 Rich Roll? Why is it, why is it like, why? There's so many conundrums in the human experience, you know? It's wired a certain way for a reason. And if you're lacking in faith or some kind of connection to, to the divine, like just look at the mechanisms of being human and the way that it's constructed and wired. It is here for your evolution and your growth. Like, I really believe that our purpose here, if you're lacking a purpose, your purpose here is to grow.
1:15:29 Phil Stutz? Yeah, 100%. And if somebody can't grasp that, they're idiots. I have to tell them that. But it's like this whole mechanism has been constructed over millions, billions, endless numbers of eons. And if you can't find or see the meaning and at least the information that there might be, you're crippled. And when you get a lot of people crippled at the same time, because you started with the promise, promise is not fulfilled, you feel, um, chipped, whatever you want to call it.
1:16:08 Phil Stutz? If in that whole thing, you can't come out and feel at least some information of this is the way it really is and it's supposed to be this way so that I can grow as much as possible. If you can't grasp that, it's very difficult. I've been lucky, you know, and just in my practice and the people I'm working with. I also think the ones that weren't interested in this, they didn't have some instinctual feeling, this is the way the game should be played. I don't think they come to me.
1:16:45 Phil Stutz? But anyway, I want you to call me in a week, you know, just to tell me how this is going because the main thing about it is to remember to do it. You could change your relationship with her and as you do, it will help you cross this barrier.
1:17:08 Phil Stutz? I have no reason to say that, but I just feel it.
1:17:13 Rich Roll? Yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna take you up on that.
1:17:17 Rich Roll? I think we're all, on some level, caught up in our own looping narratives and stories about who we are and what we're capable of, et cetera. And the only way to gain any kind of objectivity on that is to bring a third party in because you can't solve the problem or, you know, transcend that loop and see it clearly with the same brain that is producing it, right? Like you need an outside observer who can, you know, deconstruct it for you. And it requires a certain level of like willingness and openness to engage with that, right? Like the people who don't come to you, who aren't ready to sign up for that kind of thing. But on some level, we can't grow.
1:18:02 Rich Roll? It's not, it's a, it is a team sport, to your point about the collective. In the same way, we need to give back to the collective and transcend our selfishness and inclination towards, you know, individualization and all of that in order...
1:18:19 Rich Roll? To really become more self-actualized, you have to be willing to raise your hand and open up to somebody else and be honest, which is hard. No one wants to expose their secrets into the light, but shame can't survive the light, right? The path forward is always the uncomfortable, difficult path. And so I'm always trying to model the power of vulnerability, because it isn't a weakness, it is a superpower. And we're so reluctant to share on that level, but there's so much freedom on the other side of it. And as soon as you get a taste of that freedom, you want more. And there's always more growth.
1:19:00 Rich Roll? Like, as much as I've done, there's so much more that remains, always.
1:19:05 Phil Stutz? Yeah, you're an interesting person to me, because, let me put it this way, you not only have the talent, you have the positioning, which I count as an extra added bonus. You have to view this as, it's like taking care of a pet. You're responsible for this organism. That's what you want to think about it.
1:19:31 Rich Roll? The organism being what?
1:19:34 Phil Stutz? Being the higher bond. It's real. I'm trying to think of an example. Nothing is coming to mind, which makes me even more ashamed of myself, but...
1:19:47 Rich Roll? Let's go down a shame spiral together. We'll hold hands and just go down the funnel, Phil.
1:19:55 Phil Stutz? All right, I'll try that.
1:19:58 Rich Roll? What's at the bottom of the funnel? Opportunity.
1:20:02 Phil Stutz? Okay, let me just show you this. No, do you want me to join this?
1:20:07 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:20:08 Phil Stutz? Okay, always. Okay. This here, we'll say, is uncertainty. It's just a horizontal line. So on one side of the line, you have uncertainty, probably the least thing human beings fear the most. Uncertainty is the domain. It's the backdrop, which allows growth, and most of all, creation. And in this zone of uncertainty, these little things here represent flow. See if that makes sense?
1:20:44 Rich Roll? Let me see.
1:20:47 Rich Roll? So uncertainty is this, like comfort with uncertainty is the pathway to growth and to creative expression, to flow, right?
1:21:00 Phil Stutz? Yeah.
1:21:00 Rich Roll? This paradox of being certain around uncertainty is so interesting. I had, do you know Ellen Langer?
1:21:10 Phil Stutz? No.
1:21:11 Rich Roll? She's a professor of psychology at Harvard. She was like the first female, the first woman to get tenure in the psychology department at Harvard. And she has a whole thing around uncertainty. Like, obviously, uncertainty is uncomfortable for the human being, right? Like, we create these illusions of certainty to keep uncertainty at bay, but all our certainty is actually just fabricated to make us feel safe in a world that is defined by uncertainty. We don't know anything, right? And so, like you, her whole thing is around action and not being caught up in the paralysis of uncertainty.
1:21:54 Rich Roll? And she talks about like making decisions, and your work is very similar. I saw a lot of overlap here in that we have this inclination towards like analysis paralysis, and we don't want to make decisions, and we're indecisive. And then when we make a decision, we're analyzing whether it was the right one or the wrong one forever. And her whole thing is like, don't worry if you made the right decision, like make the decision right. Life is about making decisions. It's that thing, it's like, take the action, make the decision, move forward, stop ruminating in the past or projecting how it's going to impact your future, and just continue to make decisions, and to the best of your ability, make those decisions right in your attitude around them.
1:22:35 Phil Stutz? Give me that.
1:22:36 Rich Roll? Which one? The same thing?
1:22:38 Phil Stutz? Yeah, so over here you have clarity. Now, the job is to move from this apparent clarity to cross this line into the realm of uncertainty. And people can't do it, obviously, this gives a shit. There's a secret to it, though. I alluded to it before. You see, each one of these u's? These u's are called turnarounds. And all it means is I was feeling good. I had bad luck. I lost my nerve. I got sick, whatever it is. So I gave up.
1:23:23 Phil Stutz? Now, if you can work through that, so the u would go up here, things are fine, down into the trough, you're fucked, and recover from it. In that recovery, you've created value. And the person who creates the most value is the one who can cross that line. And that's an experience of getting fucked and then recovering from it. You call it a...
1:23:53 Rich Roll? Right. They're all like micro-hero's journeys.
1:23:56 Phil Stutz? That's right. That's brilliant.
1:23:57 Rich Roll? So what you drew was a bunch of u's, each u representing some individual journey through uncertainty to the other side.
1:24:08 Phil Stutz? Yep. That's called a turnaround.
1:24:10 Rich Roll? And no matter how many of these u's you traverse, there's always gonna be more.
1:24:16 Phil Stutz? Yeah, which is the good and the bad news.
1:24:18 Rich Roll? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:24:21 Phil Stutz? Oh, yeah, and one, another thing. You have to speak differently.
1:24:26 Rich Roll? Tell me more.
1:24:28 Phil Stutz? You're gonna have to speak a little more from the heart. It's very compelling when you do. Otherwise, you die exactly. Which is, you know, here's one of the smartest guys I've ever met, but I don't give a shit. And you shouldn't either.
1:24:41 Rich Roll? I think in this context, I don't want to be defensive. Like, I hear you. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna think about that. I am trying to be present, but I'm also trying to be a proxy for the audience and make sure that the ideas are getting conveyed clearly. And so maybe that takes me out of the moment, or like, the most authentic version of who I am, to make sure that, like, this is helpful for somebody who's spending time with us.
1:25:15 Phil Stutz? Yeah, which is understandable. It's fine. All these things are a matter of degree. But, but most of this shouldn't occur while you're working with another person. It should occur just as you're walking around, going shopping, whatever. But the, the point of it is, well, you'll find out how much of this you're really willing to do and how much you, you aren't. But the way you find out is by, is by the, how many turns around you can. And that's the, that's the opportunity in bad luck, however you want to say it.
1:25:48 Rich Roll? Right. But unfortunately, you're gonna have to hit that nadir moment on each one of these, right? And that's where all of your instincts are to like, run away or opt out. But you have to stay in it.
1:26:00 Phil Stutz? Yeah, but that's not unfortunate. That's good luck.
1:26:01 Rich Roll? Right. I mean, the gift is a result of that, but it means that you have to go through all of that discomfort and challenge. Yeah.
1:26:10 Phil Stutz? I'll tell you one nice thing about you. You have the gift of being an authority figure, being probably slightly over the line in terms of, you know, knowing all that. But you're very, very human. I could almost feel you empathizing with these poor fuck people.
1:26:31 Phil Stutz? So it's, that's a great combination. It's, it's, it's another discussion.
1:26:36 Rich Roll? Yeah. Is that the most uplifting note that we can like, end this thing on, Phil?
1:26:42 Phil Stutz? I'm very surprised at who you are. I like you very much.
1:26:47 Rich Roll? I'm glad to hear that. I'm relieved. Wow, that was a wild ride, man. Thank you.
1:26:56 Rich Roll? You got laser beams in those eyes.
1:26:59 Phil Stutz? Yeah, I have. I always have that.
1:27:00 Rich Roll? Yeah.
1:27:01 Phil Stutz? In normal living, I saw, but in that, in that area, it's some freakish kind of a thing.
1:27:09 Rich Roll? Well, let's, uh, let's conclude it for today, man. Check out Phil's books. The newest one is Lessons for Living. You can check him out in Stutz, the documentary on Netflix, which was beautiful. I really was very moved by that. Yeah.
1:27:25 Phil Stutz? Yeah, it came back good.
1:27:26 Rich Roll? Yeah, it did. Did. And that's it. Until next time.
1:27:30 Phil Stutz? All right. I love you.
1:27:31 Rich Roll? Yeah, a little session is over today. Love you too, buddy. I'm in love with you now, for sure. Thank you. Peace.
1:27:50 Rich Roll? That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. This show just wouldn't be possible without the help of our amazing sponsors,
1:28:33 Rich Roll? who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors.
1:28:42 Rich Roll? And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg, graphic and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Solis. And thank you Georgia Whaley for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support.
1:29:27 Rich Roll? See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.
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