Why You Should Choose Yourself

I love people who ask questions other people aren't asking. See trends others don't see. Have the courage to try a new approach. Risk the illusion of security. Think differently. Jump into the abyss with nothing but faith and their own resolve in search of answers. And refuse to wait for permission to simply do. In a certain sense, this dictate can be boiled down to a singular principle — people who Choose Themselves. And this is what today's guest is all about. Enter James Altucher. Where to even begin with this multi-talented hyphenate. Hedge fund manager, investor & serial entrepreneur, James has founded or co-founded over 20 companies; chess master; inspirational public speaker, radio, television and successful podcast host ( his show debuted at #1 on all of iTunes a few months back); bestselling author with 11 books to his name, both self-published and with the biggest publishing houses; husband, and father. I first stumbled upon the world of James Altucher about a year ago through his prolific, always humorous discernments on his The Altucher Confidential Blog and have counted myself a rabid fan ever since. What keeps me coming back isn't just his keen perceptions and invaluable insights, but the honesty, authenticity and total transparency as a vehicle to deliver his perceptions. A self-deprecating style that astutely mines his many fears and failures with a profound degree of relatability that threads a fabric of deep emotional connection with his readership. An expert in navigating rejection and colossal failure with as much enthusiasm and authority as his lays out — brick-by-brick — the many principles he has honed and freely shares to achieve greater health, perspective, life satisfaction and prosperity. We live in precarious times. A fear-based, quickly changing world pulling the thinly veiled curtain on the illusion of security. To crib a few ideas from James, markets have crashed. The traditional idea of jobs are disappearing. Everything we thought was “safe,” no longer is: College. Employment. Retirement. Government. In every part of society, the middlemen are being pushed out of the picture. No longer is someone coming to hire you, to invest in your company, to sign you, to pick you. More than ever, it falls on the individual to create a sustainable future. Scary stuff. We can look at this as a crisis. Or we can change perspective and see it as a moment of great opportunity. As always, destruction begets renewal. The truth is that we live in an amazing, unprecedented time of opportunity. A time of fantastical technology that in many ways has simply eradicated the seat once occupied by what we call the gatekeepers. With the advent of mind-blowing software and social media, new tools and economic forces are emerging that make it more possible than ever for individuals to create, thrive and change the world without “help” from the finicky sometimes not so permissive hand traditionally relied upon to feed us. This is the idea behind what James would call the Choose Yourself* era. It's also the title of his most recent book, a roadmap primer on transcending the decaying the master/servant paradigm of our economic system of employment and a call to action on how to configure a more meaningful life liberated from the so-called gatekeepers. Enjoy! Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout. Welcome to episode 75 of the Rich Roll Podcast with James Altucher. Hey, people, welcome to the show. I'm Rich Roll.

• 1:26Rich Roll?

  I am your friendly podcast host. Lots of incredible content out there. 250,000 podcasts, YouTube videos, Twitter, et cetera. So much content out there vying for your precious attention, compelling your ears and your eyes to pay attention. So I'm very appreciative that you guys are tuning into this podcast, that you have chosen this one to listen to. I don't take it for granted, and I'm very appreciative of the fact that you are lending me your ears today. So this show has enriched my life in innumerable ways. It's a lot of work, but I really enjoy it, and it's definitely made my life better. And my hope is that...

• 2:10Rich Roll?

  That is doing the same for you, but I don't take you guys for granted. So thank you for tuning in. Each week I bring to you the best, most forward-thinking paradigm busting minds in health, fitness, wellness, diet, nutrition, spirituality, creativity and entrepreneurship. Today's guest is an entrepreneur. So that's on point. I deliver these conversations with the intention of giving you a toolbox, information, motivation, inspiration, ideas to help you take your life to the next level. And my goal is simple. It's just to help you discover, unlock and unleash your best, most authentic self. Take what resonates with you, discard the rest, but use the tools that are speaking to you and implement them into your life.

• 2:55Rich Roll?

  When I think about the guests that I want to have on the show, my focus is always on people that are asking questions, challenging the status quo, trying new ways, thinking differently, thriving on their own resolve and searching for answers, but always committed to helping other people. And I think that in many ways you could distill all of this down to a singular idea. People who choose themselves and that idea, this idea of choosing yourself rather than waiting for the approval of a third party, whether it be a boss, a publisher, a network, an interviewer, a teacher, a parent or whatever, any kind of gatekeeper, permission giver for that matter, is really what and who today's guest is all about.

• 3:41Rich Roll?

  So James Altucher, who is this guy? If you've never heard of him, it's difficult to even figure out where to begin. He's done so many interesting things. He is extraordinarily intelligent,

• 3:55Rich Roll?

  incredibly engaging, very funny, entertaining and an expert in so many disciplines. It's like, where to even start, but let me give you a list, I suppose. He's a hedge fund manager. He's an entrepreneur. The guy's founded or co-founded, I think, like 20 companies. He's a chess master. He's an in-demand public speaker, motivational speaker. He speaks on business topics, etc. And more recently, he has dipped his toe into the podcast world. He launched, I don't know, a couple of months ago, maybe two months ago, released his podcast upon the world, The James Altucher Show. And I think within a week of his first episode posting, it went

• 4:40Rich Roll?

  to number one in iTunes of all podcasts. So, you know, that's a testament to how popular this guy is. He brings some pretty cool, interesting people on his show. So, I would urge all of you to check it out. You can find it on iTunes. He's a bestselling author. He's my age, but he's written 11 books, some of them self-published, some of them with the big publishing houses, including a book he wrote in 2011 called, "I Was Blind But Now I See: Time To Be Happy," which reached number one on Amazon in the motivation section. He's written a new book called Choose Yourself, and I'm going to get to that in a minute. But what I find really compelling about James is what he writes on his blog. That's how

• 5:25Rich Roll?

  I found him, and that's what keeps me intriguing and coming back to find out what he's doing. It's a blog that, in the first year of him launching it, amassed over 5 million page views. And he's got like 290,000 Facebook fans. So, this guy is, you know, got a big, big following of people that are really tuning in to what he has to offer. And what he has to offer, and I think why it struck a chord and why he has become so popular with his writing, is that it demonstrates an incredible authenticity and honesty. I stumbled into it about a year or so ago, and now I just eagerly await every new post that he writes.

• 6:09Rich Roll?

  I can't wait to read it. And he's prolific. I mean, the guy's posting multiple times throughout the week, very long blog posts that really challenge you to think about things differently. And his insights have been really invaluable to me. But what really draws me in, the emotional connection that I have, is to his fearlessness when it comes to complete transparency.

• 6:32Rich Roll?

  It's not so much about his successes, but really about how he talks about his failures, of which there are many, you know, whether it's a company that failed, or a book that he wrote that nobody would publish or read, or even what it was like when he blew fifteen million dollars after he sold a company and had to ask his parents for money. You know, he tells these, these very colorful stories with a technical verve and, and a sense of self-deprecation and humor that makes him really pure joy to read. In essence, he is very much an expert in navigating rejection and colossal failure as much as he is an

• 7:12Rich Roll?

  authority on how to succeed, and he is an authority on that. It's unbelievable how much content this guy puts out. Ninety-nine percent of it is completely free, and how available he makes himself to, you know, his basically massive audience. He does weekly Q and As on Twitter, he answers questions on Quora, he always seems to be able to find the time to respond, and that's, that is a testimony, or a testament to an insane work ethic and an ability to focus, and inability to engage in his passions, and those are all things that we talk about in this interview. His most recent book is called Choose Yourself,

• 7:56Rich Roll?

  which I read and I loved, and I got a lot out of it. It really resonated with me, and it's, it's both motivational and it's, and instructional. It's kind of a roadmap primer on transcending this kind of, for lack of a better phrase, slave-master paradigm of our economy and system of employment, and really a call to action on how to configure a more meaningful life that's liberated from the so-called gatekeepers. And to kind of crib from his thoughts on the book and where he's coming from.

• 8:29Rich Roll?

  You know, the world is changing. Markets are crashing, jobs are disappearing, and everything we kind of aspired to, or at least the generation before us aspired to, things like security, or a safe career, college, employment, retirement, government, these things seem to be crumbling down in rapid succession around us and every part of society. The middlemen are being pushed out of the picture and no longer, you know, it's no longer the case where someone's coming to hire you, or to invest in your company, or to sign you, or pick you up. And more and more so, it's on us to make the important decisions in our lives, to choose ourselves essentially.

• 9:13Rich Roll?

  And this presents a great moment of opportunity, as it always does. I mean, destruction always begets renewal. And never before have we had so many amazing tools. I mean, technology has really given us the ability to transcend these forces, to make it more possible than ever for us to create art, make a good living, or change the world without the quote unquote "help" or "permission." Opportunities arising all around us, out of the ashes of, you know, this ever so decrepit system. And we are more capable than ever of creating or generating real inward success, whether

• 9:55Rich Roll?

  that's personal happiness, or health, or fitness, and translating that into outward success, careers, professions, that can support our families, that are fulfilling, and that are giving back. And this book, Choose Yourself, is really kind of a primer on that. And James is a guy who sees, and understands, and can translate these life principles in a way that will really make you think, that will challenge you, and at the same time, completely entertain you. He's a really funny guy, and he'll make you laugh. So, so there you go. That's it, let's just get into the interview. I'm delighted. I'm a big fan of this guy, so I was super psyched to be able to sit down with him. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, I present you with James Altucher.

• 10:52Rich Roll?

  Well, I've been a big fan of yours for a long time. And, you know, athlete aside, I mean, that's not what this is about. I like to just find people that inspire me in different ways. And you certainly are at the top of that category. I've been reading your stuff for a long time. And then I go home and flog myself for not being as good a writer as you are.

• 11:14Speaker 01

  No, no, I wouldn't worry about that. You know, but it's interesting because I do read your writing and I find there to be overlap, actually, because whenever you go through a transformation and you've gone through like your own series of transformations, whether it's a body transformation or a financial transformation, whenever you go through one of those, you learn from them. And you can either stay behind or move forward. And it seems like you've been very successful at moving forward.

• 11:44Rich Roll?

  Well, I'm afraid to stop. I don't know what would happen if I stopped, so I'm propelled to move forward.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, you know, there's two contexts there. Like, one is, are you afraid to slow down? Or are you afraid that if you stop, you die?

• 12:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I'm not sure. My therapist might be able to answer that question.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  They should do a podcast together.

• 12:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. Well, maybe we can get them in on the conversation altogether.

• 12:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 12:14Rich Roll?

  We'll do that next time. But I have this theory about you, and the theory goes something like this, that you have been hibernating and meditating in a cave in the Himalayas for the last 20 years. And then suddenly, you appear in New York City with all this wisdom to impart. And it's fun. You're sort of like this Yoda-like character imparting Jedi mind tricks on people.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  I like that theory.

• 12:40Rich Roll?

  You do? Okay, we'll go with it. Because I'm attracted to what you have to offer, not because I'm looking for financial advice, or I want the five tips that are going to allow me to become a millionaire, but because of the honesty in your voice, the authenticity. And what I think is going on, and I want to hear your thoughts on this, is... Really what you're doing behind this kind of like veil of, you know, sort of insight into how to be an entrepreneur or what have you is really spiritual wisdom. I mean, that's kind of like you try not to highlight it too much or hit it on the nose,

• 13:21Rich Roll?

  but behind everything you're saying, it all kind of begins and ends with getting right with yourself and doing the inside work first as a preface to anything that follows.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  Well, I think that's very, I think that's very true. And I'll tell you, there's kind of a secret twist to it, which is that I think the word, the word spiritual, and we can think of other words like this. So there's words like spiritual, God, religion, divine, meditation. All of these are sort of evil words. I don't mean evil like, you know, maybe evil's the wrong word, but they're sort of like ugly words in the sense that people say, oh, I'm not spiritual, I'm more scientific or I'm more rational, you know, as if spirituality is the opposite of a rational mind or God is the opposite, you know, people think of God as like this old man with a beard, which

• 14:17Speaker 01

  they were taught when they were six years old, you know, I think that's the opposite of living a rational, productive life, and that has nothing to do with productivity and entrepreneurship. But the reality is, to succeed, you kind of have to, and by success, I don't mean financially, I mean just in general, being a happy, you know, self-reliant person. But to succeed, you kind of have to know who you are, and that's at a very deep level. It doesn't mean this is my address, it doesn't mean this is what I look like, it doesn't mean this is my weight or how much money I have in the bank. Who are you might be, is a very complicated question, and lots of people have tried to answer that through the millennia.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  And so what I do is, I kind of take my personal story, because that's the only story I can really vouch for, and I sort of run it through a filter of, you know, well, You know, based on everything I've read or experienced from others, you know, particularly in this spirituality realm, you know, how can I translate that into my own experience without using words that scare people off like, oh, you know, chant in Sanskrit and you're gonna get these results. Well, I don't wanna do that. I wanna speak English. And I wanna understand myself. I don't wanna sit like how they sit in Tibet because it's very hard for my legs. So, I wanna do what Americans do and what I do.

• 15:40Speaker 01

  And still feel like I'm moving forward and understanding myself. So, you're right, there is kind of a spiritual backbone to everything I write. And often, I'll directly refer to texts written maybe 3,000 years ago, but not specifically reference them because nobody wants to hear from them. They wanna hear what the modern version is, and that's what I tried to talk about.

• 16:06Rich Roll?

  Well, I think it's very astute, and it makes your writing accessible to everybody. Whereas, you know, just the mere mention, like you said, of using the word spirituality, immediately, you know, bells go off in people's minds and they just tune out. Like, they don't wanna hear about it. But you have a way of getting that across without really, you know, referencing it too directly. And I think it's very powerful.

• 16:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you. And I agree because there's also there's also kind of a psychological aspect where if something resonates over time, then chances are it's touching something very deep inside the human vein that runs through all of us. So, for instance, I'll just use a modern example. Take a song like the Beatles' song "Yesterday." It's a very beautiful song. Most people like it when they hear it. Most people recognize it. Take Justin Bieber. If Justin Bieber were to do a cover of Yesterday, it'd probably be popular among both kids and adults. Just because it's already survived the test of time. It's been, it's been a popular hit song for 50 years.

• 17:15Speaker 01

  So, so Justin Bieber can piggyback on that and make a song that appeals to, somewhat to adults. So by, by referencing, let's say, texts written by, I don't know, I'll just use an example out of a hat, like Buddha or the, or yoga or whatever that was written 2,000 years ago, by referencing some of these texts, but without saying Buddha said, you know, or Confucius said, you know, without specifically, you know, saying who said what and, and really translating it into the modern language, it's still gonna resonate with, with everybody, just like it did 2,000 years ago.

• 17:52Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, I think that's true. And, you know, I wanna know where this all began for you. I mean, I wanna talk about Choose Yourself and wanna talk about all the many, many things that you do in this sort of polyamorous kind of way. But, you know, what, what kind of catalyzed your interest in, in these sorts of things?

• 18:10Speaker 01

  Well, I've always been, I've always been interested in it. So I've, and I always think, you know, and I can ask the same question of you. Let me, let me ask this of you. When did you become interested in becoming, you know, like an ultra athlete?

• 18:24Rich Roll?

  Well, I mean, that journey really was kind of forged out of the crucible of pain. You know, in my experience, you know, I'm very reluctant to change at all. Like, good habits, bad habits, whatever. It's not until I'm in a sufficient amount, enough amount of pain that I'm willing to look in the mirror and kind of take inventory of what I'm doing. And, you know, I got to a place in, in my life where, you know, a couple of times in my life, first through, you know, drinking drugs and alcohol, where I reached a, you know, a point where that was no longer working in my life and I was in enough pain to, to sort of entertain a new way of living that was premised on spiritual principles. And then in my professional life, you know, sort of after, you know, recover,

• 19:08Rich Roll?

  you know, well into recovery, kind of, you know, reaching a point where I was living a life I didn't wanna be living and it became so intolerable to me that I had to figure out a way out of it. And for me, it, it, it all begins and ends with, you know, finding a spiritual connection to something as a lifeline.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  Well, and when you were a kid, did you have any, did you grow up under any discipline?

• 19:32Rich Roll?

  No, no, I mean, I was not the kid who's like, you know, sort of attracted to reading those kinds of books or, or thinking big thoughts. I mean, we went to church, but it was really kind of more of a social thing and, and I never really connected with that. So it wasn't until, you know, into my thirties where this became something interesting to me.

• 19:50Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting because I always feel some of our passions, we plant the seeds when we're a kid. So maybe some aspect of what you do now, I'm absolutely convinced when you were 10 years old, you were kind of fantasizing about having a life around, around some aspect of what you did end up doing. Because it does seem clear to me now that you're doing something you're passionate about, and I'm sure there's aspects there that, that date back, you know, 20, 30 years or longer.

• 20:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I, most likely, I'm sure. I mean, and I think part of the, the condition of, the condition of the alcoholic, I mean, there's, there's plenty of people that say, you know, you're, you're so uncomfortable in your own skin, you're seeking solace and answers in other ways, in unhealthy ways. But there's an, there's an inherent seeking nature to that, I think, that is somewhat applicable.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so, so when I was a, when I was a kid, um, I was really interested in spiritual texts and, but not, but for very selfish reasons. I wanted to learn how to astral project, you know, which is this idea that you can project your mind out of your body.

• 20:55Rich Roll?

  Right. So the, the Yoda thing is more apt than I might have originally imagined.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it could be because, except for the fact that my entire goal was I wanted to astral project into the homes of my friends who were girls and see them naked. So, so I was obsessed with astral projection. I had like maybe 30 different books on how to astral project. And I was trying everything. And, you know, some of these techniques get very meditative because it was all these 1970s pop parapsychology books. And so what are they doing? They're stealing it all from essentially Buddhism and Taoism and types of yoga and, and so on. So, so they're almost doing the same thing of kind of taking these ancient texts and trying to bring them into this Western language. But I had a completely narcissistic, selfish reason for, for following them.

• 21:45Speaker 01

  But then I realized what the roots were, which were these, you know, texts like, you know, Taoism and Buddhism and the Yoga Sutras and so on. And so I basically went to the, to the source and started reading them. And I began meditating on a daily basis. And this is at a very young age. Wow. And, um, uh, you know, then I, then college would come. And then I actually did finally get to see, uh, a girl or two naked. So I lost as interest in meditation at the, at that point because relationships became much too complicated for, for me to handle, uh, particularly when I was being silent for an hour a day. And, uh, you know, then I got involved in, in business and entertainment and all sorts of other things. I basically

• 22:28Speaker 01

  had a very varied career that's gone from one end to the other, you know, all over the place, from entertainment to business to writing and so on. But always there was this undercurrent of, uh, you know, always interested and open-minded in, in spiritual texts and, and reading about them and seeing how I could integrate them into my life. Sometimes for selfish reasons, but you know, as they say, God works in mysterious ways. You're never totally selfish if you're trying to improve yourself because when you improve yourself, you also improve the lives of the people around you. Yeah, for sure. And that's something that, that I've really learned from. But more recently, in the past, I guess it was like four years ago, I was not doing great. Um, I had been,

• 23:13Speaker 01

  um, separated and then divorced. I had lost a home. Uh, my last few attempts at, at businesses didn't work out. My last few attempts at books hadn't worked out. I was, you know, where the world was going through a financial crisis. So I was an optimist. So TV was no longer interested in having my pretty face on. And so, uh, I just started, I said, screw it. I'm just going to write what I'm, what's happened to me and what I'm interested in. And I don't care what anybody thinks. And I integrated this in with. My spiritual practice and my writing practice and the result was both my blog and then my ongoing books and then blogging for other websites and it's really built up a nice

• 23:56Speaker 01

  presence across the worldwide web.

• 23:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, your stuff is everywhere. It's almost impossible to avoid you popping up when I open up my browser. You're so prolific in your writing and it's your work ethic must be amazing because you're continually cranking out these blog posts that go viral. I mean, they've really struck a chord and I think it really goes back to this issue of honesty, authenticity, you know, really allowing yourself to be vulnerable in a way that that most people aren't. I mean, I think the the sort of podcast analog to that is is Marc Maron. Have you ever you listen to Marc Maron's podcast ever?

• 24:39Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. And I've been I used to listen to Marc Maron when he would perform on Ludlow Street in Manhattan back in 1996. And I'm an all time fan of Marc Maron.

• 24:50Rich Roll?

  Right. And so for people who are listening who don't know, I mean, he was at a real low point in his life where he just thought everything was over and everything that he had tried wasn't working and and honestly and he, you know, sort of turned on his microphone in his garage and just started talking openly and honestly and allowing himself to be vulnerable because he didn't have anything else to do and didn't know what else to do. And I think that is aside from the fact that he's, you know, hilarious, wildly entertaining and a fantastic interviewer, it's that it's that vulnerability, I think, that's allowed his podcast to kind of, you know, ascend to the top of the rankings, why he's been able to find an audience. And I think that that is, you know, why your writing has really struck a chord with people.

• 25:31Speaker 01

  I think that's true because and, you know, just to continue on Marc Maron, let's say it was 16 years ago, 17 years ago. He wasn't as vulnerable. He was still funny. I mean, he was just as funny then as he is now. His humor has matured, but uh he was a he was a professional comedian then. But his his humor was much more angry and political and um message driven. And I think the vulnerability now stands out a lot more than it did then. And people relate to that because, you know, this is a hard world to live in. Like when I started blogging, you know, I was depressed. I was down like like.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  Bad things were happening and not just for me, but for the entire world. And not just for the entire world that day, but for like a decade. Like there was the dot com bust, there was nine eleven, there was corruption with Enron, WorldCom, housing bust, financial crisis, Madoff, two wars, like and. It just kept getting worse and worse. And then I was thinking to myself, why? You know, when I started blogging also, I think even the stock market then was having a uh twenty percent or thirty percent downturn and um, you know, it just felt bad. Everything felt bad and I felt like nobody liked me. And so I I found through writing that it didn't make the people.

• 26:58Speaker 01

  People still didn't like me, but suddenly I made new friends. And again, totally self-serving, I kept writing because it was the only way I can reach out and touch people and have human connection with people who who suddenly I respected, who respected me. And you know, we part of the, you know, two things that we very much want in life is is love slash human connection and a sense of achievement. And suddenly I found that I was getting both of those. Now, I think there's a third thing that's deeper, which is to have kind of a spiritual connection to your your deeper self, but you know, that is like an ongoing process. Whereas the the writing for me was directly getting me this sense of achievement and you know,

• 27:43Speaker 01

  feelings of of whether they're false or flimsy or not, uh feelings of of love and attention from from the audience, many of whom became my friends.

• 27:52Rich Roll?

  Right, well, it provides a way for people to emotionally connect and relate because, you know, in the deep recesses of everybody's psyche, you know, we all share these feelings of fear and insecurity and vulnerability and we're just afraid to express them. And the courage that you demonstrate in doing that and being fearless in that regard is why it resonates. It's the human condition.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's the human condition. And so many people are afraid of it. I'll tell you two common comments that people have. People say, "Well, in order to succeed, don't you have to be dishonest? You know, you have to be cutthroat." And of course, the answer is no. In fact, it's the exact opposite, in most cases, you know, 99% of the cases. Another thing, question that people have is, "Well, how can you say all this? Won't people hate you? Or won't people refuse to give you opportunities?" And the reality is, because people know I'm impeccably honest, you know, and I'm stealing that a little bit from the book, The Four Agreements.

• 28:54Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 28:54Speaker 01

  But because I'm impeccable about the honesty, and also I endeavor never to hurt anybody, people know that they can trust me. And that's given me more opportunities now than I've ever had in my life. And I've, you know, I've built and sold businesses. I've built businesses, sold them, gone broke, built again, sold them, gone broke, built again, and so on. But now, I've had these opportunities that have been really kind of different in style because people are coming to me not because I can program something or do something very specific, but because they know I'm an honest, trusted source. And you know, I tell people quite honestly, if there's some other reason that they're interested

• 29:36Speaker 01

  in, you know, hiring me for something, or paying me money for something, then I'm not interested. I've turned down many opportunities as well.

• 29:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's interesting. I mean, in my own experience, when I was setting out to write my book, at the same time that I got my book deal, I was made aware that the most famous accomplished ultra marathoner in the world was also writing his memoir at the same time, who also happens to be vegan. And I thought, "Well, who's gonna buy my book? I've never even won a race. I'm not nearly, you know, as accomplished as this other guy." Like, there's no reason to buy my book when you can buy his book. So why am I even writing this? And I knew, I had this moment where I knew that the only way... To do it, the only way that that my book would work, um, that its success was inherently

• 30:27Rich Roll?

  related to the extent to which I was willing to be vulnerable and honest and talk about things I wasn't proud of and and and give it a human, you know, you know, give it the, give it a deep sense of the human, um, condition and in hopes that somebody could sort of relate to that if they were going through a similar experience.

• 30:47Speaker 01

  And you know, that technique, and it's not a technique, it's almost sounds bad to call it a technique, but I'll call it that anyway, that works 100% of the time. I'll, I'll give you two examples. So I, I don't know if you know Kamal Ravikant, who wrote the book Love Yourself?

• 31:04Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 31:05Speaker 01

  So Kamal calls me up, he had been sick for a while, and then he calls me up and says, uh, I had this experience where I was really sick. I thought I was gonna die. And from for a year he was sick. And, um, I just started saying in the mirror, I love myself, I love myself, I love myself. And gradually I stopped being sick. And that was the medication that worked. And I said, Kamal, you have to write this down in a book. And he said, well, no, I'm a little nervous what my venture capitalist friends in San Francisco will, will think of me. And I said, Kamal, I don't even hit publish unless I'm afraid what everyone will think of me on this. I, I, I have thousands of posts that I've written because I keep the muscle going, but where I'm not really afraid to publish

• 31:50Speaker 01

  them, so I don't publish them. And so Kamal wrote that book and it became a bestseller. So it was, it was great. So that was one example. Another example, I don't know if you know, uh, Matthew Berry, he's a commentator on ESPN about fantasy sports, has a million followers on Twitter and Facebook and so on. So he wrote a book, uh, The Fantasy Life. And he was saying to me, um, You know, there are plenty of people who knew more about sports. Like, for instance, ex-athletes know more about analyzing sports. Or guys like Bill James or Nate Silver, who analyze, you know, sports statistics for fantasy sports. They knew more than me. But so, he said, and he's a professional writer. He had written on, you know, the sitcom Married with Children.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  He said, "I wrote, I took my own personal stories and combined them with my knowledge of my, I love fantasy sports," he said, "and I mixed the two together and started writing, and I built a huge audience," which, you know, he's built, he created out of scratch a career being the fantasy sports commentator in social media and on ESPN and everything. So, that's the secret ingredient is authenticity.

• 32:57Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm, and I think you said, your quote was, "Honesty drives success."

• 33:02Speaker 01

  It totally does. And again, it sounds almost selfish to say that, "Oh, he's just being honest to be successful." But, you know, I want to be successful, again, by being happy. I don't necessarily care what's exactly in my bank account, as long as I'm feeding the people around me. I don't care, you know, I live very modestly. I don't own a boat or go on these massive vacations or whatever. I like to just read and write every day. But honesty has opened so many doors of success, and it's opened the door into myself, where I really am able to analyze, or I hope, on a daily basis, sometimes not so daily,

• 33:43Speaker 01

  but I really make it a practice to try to say, "What's happening inside of me that bothers me? What do I like? What am I growing from?" And I try to then emphasize in my life the things that I'm growing from and the things that I like.

• 34:10Rich Roll?

  I've heard you talk about how you start every day, or at least for a period of time in your life, you would start every day by sitting down and just writing ideas out, as many ideas as you could think of in a given period of time.

• 34:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so this started, I mean, I guess I've always been kind of doing it, but it really started as a daily practice. In 2002, I was, it was another time when I was, it was the first time I was really dead broke. Like, I had sold my company in 1998. I had made millions of dollars. I was like a drunken rock star. I bought like this huge place. I did everything wrong. I invested in all these crazy businesses. And I just essentially lost everything, except the things that I had to pay enormous monthly expenses for, like my house. So I was losing my house, and I didn't have any friends,

• 35:05Speaker 01

  coworkers, family, nothing. And I didn't know what to do. I really thought I was gonna have to kill myself because I had, my life insurance policy was so much greater than what I was worth at that point. And I had two children. I really thought it would be much better for them if they benefited from my life insurance policy than by having their father around. I figured my, you know, wife at the time could get remarried, and they would have a father that way, and they would have the benefit of my life insurance policy.

• 35:38Rich Roll?

  Oh, James.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  So, I, you know, I don't know what stopped me, but I started every day taking a waiter's pad and going to a local cafe at like 6:00 in the morning. I would take a bunch of books with me. I'd read from the books to get different ideas. So I would have like a spiritual book. I'd have a book about games, because I always loved games. I would have a good, well-written, like fiction book. I'd have a non-fiction book with me. And then I would take out this waiter's pad. And waiter's pads are great because you can't like write a novel on them or anything. You have to just write lists, basically. They're made for lists, and they're cheap. You can buy a hundred for 10 cents each. And I started writing lists of ideas. So I'd write lists of ideas for businesses, lists of ideas of investments, lists of ideas of books I could write.

• 36:22Speaker 01

  List of ways I can surprise my wife. And I always had to do at least ten because ten's hard. Like you're, you know that feeling when you've like run a bunch of miles and then you're like, oh, I can't do this anymore. But you know, you're gonna get that, that that's the point where if you keep on running, you're gonna get huge benefit. So you always.

• 36:42Rich Roll?

  That's where the rubber meets the road and you really exercise the muscle.

• 36:45Speaker 01

  Exactly. And the same thing happens with ideas. People don't realize this. They understand it with like legs. Like if you don't use your, if you're in bed for two weeks, you'll need actually physical therapy to walk again. Because your leg muscles will atrophy that quickly. Well, the same thing happens with the idea muscle. If you don't use it for two weeks, it's your idea muscle is gonna atrophy. And you need to exercise it before it actually works again, before you come up with good ideas. So every day I come up with, you know, ten to twenty ideas. I write them down, uh, and, uh, you know, I, I continue that. And when I've stopped doing that, which I have during this past decade, I've always gone broke afterwards.

• 37:26Speaker 01

  Without fail, if I stop writing ideas down every day, within about a year, I'm broke. And so I really will, right now, because of that practice and, and several others, which, which we can discuss. Um, every six months, my life is completely different than it was six months earlier. It's just amazing and I'm really grateful for that.

• 37:47Rich Roll?

  And what is a, what is a relationship between the ideas that you write down and the ones that you implement or you take action on?

• 37:55Speaker 01

  Almost nothing. The, the real goal of writing the ideas down is just to, to, uh, exercise that idea muscle. Because if you think about it, if you write twenty ideas a day, that's over seven, seventy-five hundred, uh, you know, ideas a year. And you're not gonna, maybe you'll execute on one or two of those, you know, or I don't know, uh.

• 38:17Rich Roll?

  So the power is what then? The power is just in, in developing this muscle for the imagination?

• 38:24Speaker 01

  Yes. So, so it's amazing. It's not because. Yes, you'll come up with great ideas for businesses during this process. But even more than that, people come to you with a problem and you'll have 10 ideas for them. Like you become an idea machine. Or you'll get, your car will run out of gas in the middle of the desert. And you'll have 10 ideas on what to do there to get to safety. So you just have ideas all the time. Like everything I'm doing, I feel flooded with ideas and I'm really grateful for that. Like that more than anything has been this massive boon in my life. You know, it helps in any situation. Valentine's Day, can't figure out something unusual to do.

• 39:08Speaker 01

  So I'll come up with 10 ideas there. So just every day, there's a new situation where I try to apply this muscle. And then throughout the day, I see myself using it.

• 39:21Rich Roll?

  It was interesting. I interviewed the filmmaker Casey Neistat the other day. Do you know him, lives in New York?

• 39:28Speaker 01

  No.

• 39:28Rich Roll?

  He's a big YouTuber. He makes amazing, amazing videos. He just did this one where he's snowboarding all over New York City during the snowstorm last week.

• 39:36Speaker 01

  Oh, that's great.

• 39:37Rich Roll?

  That kind of went crazy viral. Anyway, he was, we were talking about ideas and he said, I don't care about ideas. People come to me with ideas all the time. I'm not interested in ideas. Ideas are easy. I'm interested in execution.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Well, it's interesting because idea, so again, coming up with 7,500 ideas a year could be easy if you're good at exercising that idea muscle. And then, like I said, you're not gonna execute on hardly any of them. Maybe you'll execute on one or two of them. So when I'm in execution mode, like when I'm coming up with a list where I think, you know, I might want to execute on some of these ideas, I always make two columns. And so on one column will be the ideas and on the other column is the next step. And now, most people get very scared of the next step. But I will disagree a little bit with Casey. And I'll say that execution is somewhat easy because all execution involves is knowing

• 40:33Speaker 01

  what my next first step is. So I started in 2006, for instance, a business called Stockpicker.com. And it was like a social media site for people interested in stocks. And I built it and we got up to a million or so visitors a month, maybe, maybe more. And then eventually I sold it to thestreet.com. But my next step was simply specking it out. Saying, this is what the front page looks like. This is what it looks like after you sign in. This is what a portfolio page looks like. This is what a message looks like. And so I just specked out every page. And that was my next step. And then my next step after that was go on elance.com. Find, you know, put up, put up the spec. Find software developers in India.

• 41:18Speaker 01

  Hire one. So that was my next step after that.

• 41:21Rich Roll?

  Right, I mean, that just speaks to goal setting in general. Like you establish this crazy, difficult goal. Whether it's, you know, building a business that you're gonna sell to a larger business or running a marathon or something that's out of your comfort zone and then breaking it down into stepping stones that are digestible.

• 41:38Speaker 01

  Exactly, like you, you know, I would use the example. Dorothy had no idea what she was gonna find in Oz. She had no idea how to, how to, what she was gonna encounter along the way, who she was going to encounter along the way. She didn't know anything. And often, on the way to Oz, many things happened that sort of almost took her off her path. But she did know she had to take that first step on the yellow brick road. And it's the same thing. You don't know where your business is gonna go. You don't know where you'll end up in six months. You know, it's gonna be completely different than you predict, because we're horrible predictors of our own future. But you do know what a good next step is for your life. And that's all we ever really need to know. I might be dead tomorrow.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  I don't live life as if I'm gonna die tomorrow, which is a common cliche. But, you know, I do know that all I really need to focus on today is what the steps are today. I need to take care of myself today.

• 42:35Rich Roll?

  And, you know, speaking to your life, I mean, we, we both grew up in a time where you sort of, you go to school and then you get a job. And if somebody says, you know, what do you do? You have a very specific answer to that question. And when I look at your life, you've done so many things, it's impossible to sort of quantify or define, you know. What your profession is, I mean, you're a VC, you're a hedge fund guy, you're a writer, you're a blogger, you're an author, you're a novelist, you're an investor, you're a public speaker, you're now a podcast host.

• 43:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:06Rich Roll?

  Why'd you have to, why'd you have to get into podcasting and ruin it for all of us by going straight to number one and taking all our traffic away from us?

• 43:13Speaker 01

  No, no, we're, we're, we're all gonna share traffic around, so it'll be all good. But I, I don't know, you know, I, I, I, it suddenly appealed to me, oh.

• 43:22Rich Roll?

  Chess master too.

• 43:23Speaker 01

  You know, yes, chess master, which is one of my, one of my funner activities, but with podcasting, I figured this could be a lot of fun. I can basically call up anybody I want and talk to them for an hour and 50,000 people will listen to it, or however many people. And so I suddenly figured, okay, let's try this out. So I started it and I called up these people that I didn't even expect they would return my calls and suddenly I'm, I'm having fun talking to, you know, Matt Barry, the ESPN fantasy sports analyst, or Wayne Dyer, the, the biggest spiritual author of the past century.

• 44:02Speaker 01

  You know, or Tucker Max, the exact opposite of the biggest spiritual author of the past century. So it was, it's been a lot of fun so far. The second it's not so much fun for me, I won't do it anymore.

• 44:13Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, it is super fun and, and you know, I think that it's a little bit of a, it's recapturing a lost art form, the, you know, the art of the long conversation, which I think is wonderful and why people are gravitating towards podcasting more and more. But also, you know, I share that. It's like, I have this great excuse to have these amazing conversations with people that inspire me and, you know, how else would I be able to have that in my life? I mean, it's enriched my life tremendously and, and the, the idea that other people are listening to it is, is just a bonus, really.

• 44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's it's a really great thing, but that's why because people are listening to it. That's why many people are coming on, you know, but I I'll give you an example. Back in the mid 90s, I was I pitched HBO on this idea. I said, you do original, the best original content on TV. Let's do original content on this new thing called the Internet. And they barely even knew what the Internet was then. And they said, OK, well, what should we do? And so I pitched them this idea of a web show. And I called at 3 a.m. And it was me wandering around the streets of New York City on a Tuesday night. Had to be a Tuesday or Wednesday night, interviewing people I would randomly find at 3:00 in the morning.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  Because, you know, honestly, Rich, if you are outside, you know, in in New York City, in the East Village, on a Tuesday night at 3:00 in the morning, there's usually a a reason for it. And it's usually not a very good reason. Like, there's usually something very secretive or insidious happening.

• 45:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I've been in that situation.

• 45:48Speaker 01

  Yes, so so this was a great way. And I was a shy person. This was a great way for me to just walk up to anybody and say, hey, I'm with HBO. It's 3:00 in the morning, and I really want to find out why you're here right now. And of course, I would, you know, just like my astral projection story, I really wanted to talk to, you know, women. And it was good practice for that. But I ended up talking to to I spent three years doing this. And I ended up talking to all sorts of people, men and women, just fascinating, from from all walks of life that I never would have spoken to otherwise because they were asleep from, you know, 8 a.m. to 8 p.m. It was only at 3:00 in the morning, they would be out.

• 46:29Rich Roll?

  And what happened with that show? Did it ever air? How many episodes did you tape of that?

• 46:33Speaker 01

  Well, I did about 130 episodes on the Internet, maybe a little more, about 150 episodes on the Internet.

• 46:39Rich Roll?

  Oh, for HBO.com?

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, for HBO.com. And then I did shoot it as a pilot, which never aired, but I shot an hour-long pilot, which they decided not to air. But, you know, shooting the pilot was a was a fascinating experience for me. I loved every minute of it. Like, I would say that was one of the the best work experiences I've ever had in my life.

• 46:59Rich Roll?

  Right, so you're working in television. You've done so many different things, which kind of brings me to this idea of Choose Yourself, the book that you recently put out, and this idea of this new era that we're living in right now, where the gatekeepers have been removed, and we have this unprecedented capacity to redefine ourselves, or to define ourselves differently outside the boundaries of kind of what society has always sort of set up for us.

• 47:32Speaker 01

  Yes, and you know, it's interesting, because two things have really happened that make this what I call the Choose Yourself era.

• 47:40Rich Roll?

  Well, maybe just explain that, explain, you know, the idea behind the book, the kind of thesis.

• 47:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the thesis is that essentially, in this day and age, you have to choose yourself to succeed. So you have to basically, you can't rely on your education, you can't rely on corporate safety anymore. Like, it's no longer the case that you go from cubicle to side office to corner office to executive to private jet. Like, these things don't happen anymore, or they're happening less and less. And you have to, you have to develop your own innovative ways to develop a career. So for instance, like how you're developing this podcast, and your products, and your own audience and brand is around you. You're

• 48:24Speaker 01

  choosing yourself, Rich Roll, to have a career, and you're selecting what that career is. Nobody is giving you a career. No one's saying, "Rich, I need a new brand manager for my toothpaste. Can I hire you?" You would say no, because you would say, "I'm Rich Roll. I've chosen my own career, and that's what I'm gonna do for the rest of my life, and it's just gonna keep building, you know, in a little cycle, up and down and so on. But I'm choosing myself to have a career." Not because you'll be necessarily more financially successful that way, you might or you might not, but you can't really trust any other situation. Like, the world turned upside down in 2008 and 2009. Everybody got fired.

• 49:06Speaker 01

  Everybody who thought they could trust their corporate masters got fired. And so the trust went away and you have to, it's sort of like you have to choose, you have to develop this choose yourself career in order to trust that this is the actual safest way to go. The other thing that happened was is the technology is finally here. You and I can have a podcast and 50,000 people can listen. And, you know, we can do this without the intervention of a radio station or a TV network or a music label or a book publisher. We can just do this and upload it into the cloud. And people will download it because they want to hear what we have to say, hopefully.

• 49:48Speaker 01

  And, uh, you know, it's the fact that these middlemen are disappearing that has created enormous, enormous both distress from the middlemen who are being fired and opportunity for the people who are taking advantage of it and the individuals who are choosing themselves. And so the Choose Yourself book is basically how to do it, interwoven with, with my story, interwoven with also some of these spiritual concepts that we're talking about where it's not like you have to pressure yourself to be, you know, the number one guy in the world at something. You know, your authenticity, and you mentioned this about your book, your authenticity is what makes you the number one you in the world. And the book discusses that as well.

• 50:30Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And, and, uh, this idea of removing the gatekeepers and not having to ask permission, right? Like whether you're writing a book, you've written 10 books. How many of those have you self-published?

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Right, so, so I've written, um, actually, you know, and I, I believe it or not, I lose count, which is, which is weird, but I, I, I believe it's about 11 books. And about five or six of them, I published with a mainstream publisher like Penguin, Harper Collins, Wiley. Uh, and five of them I've self-published. And I can tell you I've made a lot more money from the self-published book than from the published books. But, you know, it's, it's interesting to look at the statistics now. There used to be this stigma, oh, he self-published because he couldn't get a big five. Publisher to publish his books. That stigma is over. You have people like, you know, Hugh Howey, who published the, the science fiction classic, Wool, totally self-published it.

• 51:27Speaker 01

  He self-published all his books. They're, they're bestsellers, they're brilliant, they're great. Uh, Teresa Reagan has sold, you know, half a million copies of her thrillers. E.L. James, Fifty Shades of Grey. Whatever you think of the book, she initially self-published that and sold quarter of a million books before a publisher paid her a big amount to, to publish it. So, you know, the, the gatekeepers, oh, you know, and then let's look at the music industry. Macklemore is obviously the best example. That guy refused every single record label author and, offer and still does. And he's, he's got like, I don't know, 600 million views on his YouTube videos, but he's, he's, he sells out at all his albums, like the, he, he's, he's totally chosen himself

• 52:12Speaker 01

  and completely skipped the gatekeepers. Now, it took him 10 years of hard work to do it, but, you know, as he puts it, it took me 10 years to become an overnight success, but that's, that's also part of having a choose yourself career.

• 52:25Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And I think the idea, when you really embrace this notion of choosing yourself, it really expands the horizon in the sense that you don't feel the pressure to define yourself by any one particular thing. Like, you know, we both have podcasts, we've both written books, but you're doing all sorts of other things that in their own right could be considered a singular career and I'm doing similar things. And, you know, when you're at a cocktail party and somebody says, what do you do? It makes it difficult to answer that question, but it's also kinda awesome to not feel like you have to limit yourself to one thing as your profession.

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true, you know, like, what do you say at a cocktail party when so, I, I have no idea how to answer this question.

• 53:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, when you have to fill out that form, when, you know, every once in a while that asks you what your career is, I write something different down every time, just as a exercise in creativity.

• 53:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, you know, like when a cab driver say, ask me what I wanna do, I always say, um, what I initially was, what I went to school for, which is, I'm a computer programmer. So, that's, that's what I say. But you know, recently, um, a company, uh, asked me to be on their board of directors. So when they asked me what I do, they, yeah, so the other board of directors are interviewing me. And so when they ask me what I do, well, I'm on the board of directors of a billion revenue public company, um, called Corporate Resources. We, we hire, you know, millions of people indirectly and, uh, outsource them to Fortune 100 companies. So that's another thing I do. Um, or I'm a writer, or a blogger, or a podcaster, or whatever.

• 53:57Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And, uh, it, it kinda dovetails into, uh, something that I've been sort of studying and looking at, this whole world of like internet marketing, you know, the choose yourself ethos, uh, you know, sort of requires everybody to be their own personal brand and to kind of effectively market and build their own audience. And when I look around, you know, at the resources that are out there, I read all these blogs and, you know, look at what other people have to offer about how to build your audience and all of that. You, you know, I try to take the wisdom behind whatever's being offered, but at the same time, I can't help but getting, but, but become, getting turned off at

• 54:37Rich Roll?

  times because I feel like there's this sort of, um, really hard pitch on, you know, buy now, get this free, and these sales funnels and all this kind of stuff that reeks of a lack of authenticity. I mean, what is your sort of take on, you know, what you see out there and what people are trying to kind of push and promote when it comes to getting people to buy into kind of all these, these techniques? Cause for me, it's just about the quality of the work. Like, I just focus on the work and, yeah, I wanna have an audience, but, but I'm not willing to kind of involve myself in all this sort of pseudo trickery to get there.

• 55:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, it, it's very interesting because on the one hand, I'm fascinated by By marketing techniques because you know you used a good word pseudo trickery. Because it's it's trickery but not quite. And the reason I say not quite is because it has a very strong evolutionary psychology bent. So for instance, why do um why are testimonials so important in marketing? It's because 400,000 years ago, when you were in a tribe of just 30 people or 30 chimpanzees or whatever, uh you know, you relied on the social testimony of the other chimpanzees. Oh, this fruit is good. It's not poison, so it's acceptable for you to eat.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  So there's these strong evolutionary psychology beginnings of every single uh internet marketing technique. 100% of them all come from um our evolutionary tendencies. So and an entire part of my work is to kind of move past evolution. So we can see who we really are rather than what our chimpanzee brains tell us we are. And so I I think a lot about these techniques and try to make sure I'm not manipulated by them. But at the same time, you know, when you're trying to sell your products, you have to say, well, you know, what works and what doesn't work. And so I agree, the most important thing is having a good, authentic work. And so that's what I focus on. I feel that's what my job is.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  And then if I work with a publishing company, a publishing company is gonna use their sales funnels and they're gonna use their techniques. Some of them will work because they understand these techniques. Some of them won't work because they're not really that familiar with these techniques. And I leave it up to them to to market my stuff. But again, I'm I'm more fascinated by what can teach me to say no rather than rather than automatically saying yes. So who is trying to trick me? Who is trying to manipulate me? How can I use that and teach the readers not to be equally manipulated? So you'll see there's many programs out there. You know, here's how you learn how to be an internet millionaire. All of that stuff's interesting and teaches these uh techniques.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  But I'm more interested in how to say no to those people. Because I want to learn how I'm being, how my chimpanzee brain, my animal brain, is being manipulated in ways that I don't approve of. And what, what comes from a deeper core inside of me? Right, I mean, what would be a good example of that? If you could think of one? Well, like, uh, uh, you know, again, this idea of social proof, uh, which is, you know, using testimonials, that's why Facebook works on advertising and has very high conversion rates. Um, another one is, a very interesting one, is the word because. So, if, if you use the word because, uh, in a sentence, people are likely to do what you said.

• 58:08Speaker 01

  So if you say, uh, buy, uh, buy my product because it'll make you healthier, people are more likely to buy it than if you just say, buy my product. And, but here's the interesting thing. If you say, uh, buy my product because you should buy my product, that is equally as good as buy my product because it will make you healthier. So, you didn't even give a reason. You, you gave what's called placebo information. Your information was a placebo. And still, it has the same statistics as the, the more useful because. And both of them are 50% higher conversion rates than if you didn't use the word because. Why this is, I don't know, but it's been like tested all over the place.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  Why does that, why does that leave me despairing for the human race? Yeah, it's, it's despairing for the human race, but it's, it's, it, at some point, it was a survival technique which allowed us to, to evolve. And the people who didn't pay attention to because died out and their descendants don't live anymore. So, so some, some aspect of that turned out to be very important to us in our evolution as a species. Um, but I don't know what that is. So, so the key now is though, is because we study these techniques and, and combined with studying spiritual techniques of mindfulness and heartfulness and so on, the things that you talk about in your blog, uh, you know, because we're aware of these things, I think

• 59:35Speaker 01

  it can lead us to a higher understanding of who we are as, as humans and as, and as beings. So we're humans and then we're beings and then we're human beings. So, understanding all three of these factors of what makes our entire lives, uh, is very important.

• 1:00:03Rich Roll?

  Speaking of you being sort of a creative being, I get the sense that you're somebody who's not overly precious with your work. I mean, you're putting out so much content all the time, and you make yourself so available to your followers that it kind of reminds me of a principle in Steven Pressfield's book, The War of Art, which I'm sure you've read.

• 1:00:24Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:00:25Rich Roll?

  Okay, so there's that famous story in this book, which it's essentially a primer on unlocking your creativity for people that are listening who haven't read it. I strongly suggest you check it out.

• 1:00:35Speaker 01

  I do, too. I think that book and Turning Pro are really brilliant books.

• 1:00:39Rich Roll?

  They're amazing books, but there's that sort of famous story in there that I'm sure I'm gonna botch in my memory. But it goes something like, you know, somebody who toils endlessly on their book and, you know, turns it in and is finally ready to rest on their laurels and just sort of gets the response of, "Good, you finished that? Okay, now what are you writing now?" Like, just always moving forward and not sort of clinging on to the past or being too precious about anything that you've done. Just this constant propulsion of forward momentum.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  I think, I think, um, three things. One is, uh, yes, as soon as I finish something, I move on to the next thing. So, last night, I finished a book that I'm writing, co-authoring with my wife, actually, called The Power of No. We finished the final rewrites, we handed it in, and today-

• 1:01:23Rich Roll?

  Is that gonna be self-published?

• 1:01:25Speaker 01

  No, actually, this is the first time in five books, um, I'm using a publisher called Hay House, and I like them because they have a very strong, um, author, or readership of people interested in spiritual issues, self-help issues. I don't think any of the major publishers have very strong, um, cohesive readerships, but Hay House does.

• 1:01:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, they do. They also really support their authors quite well.

• 1:01:51Speaker 01

  Yes, it's like a family, their authors. They have conferences, they have webinars, and I think their marketing is excellent. I don't think the marketing of any of the major publishers is good. Now, I'm gonna self-publish in between then and now, and after that book comes out, I'm gonna self-publish again. We're just doing that as an experiment. But I started work on my next book today. So I'm always moving forward in that sense.

• 1:02:15Rich Roll?

  You're making me feel terrible about the one book that I wrote two years ago and still haven't moved too far forward on my next one.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Well, but that's okay. You do, you do other things. Like I literally, uh, I, I, if I don't write every day, it's like you with running, I'm sure. If I don't write every day, I get stressed and I feel bad and, um, and I, I don't like it. I really love to, to write. So, so I write, I write every single day. But as far as being too precious, I probably rewrite about ten or twenty times for every single blog post that I put out there. Rewrite even from scratch. Um, so I feel much better. A lot of people tell me, "Oh, I write a thousand words a day." I don't care about that at all. Like, uh, if someone tells me, "Oh, I cut out four hundred words a day."

• 1:03:04Speaker 01

  That's impressive. So I always try to cut out like forty percent of everything I write. And then I feel really good about it. And then I publish it. And again, using the check, you know, I check the box, "Am I afraid to publish this?" Yes, hit publish, and then I move on to my next thing. The final thing I want to mention is on Steven Pressfield himself, his most successful book, The Legend of Bagger Vance, totally, without mentioning it at all, totally is a rewrite of the, uh, three thousand year old text, the Bhagavad Gita. Uh, and, uh, he knew that something that resonated for three thousand years would be a successful novel now. And so he doesn't mention it at all in the book.

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  But every character is based on a character in the Bhagavad Gita. Everything that happens is related to an event in the Bhagavad Gita. It's completely a rewrite. And he knew on purpose that that would propel it to success, and he was correct.

• 1:04:01Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And the other thing too is that strikes me about how you approach your writing and your blog is this tremendous... ...degree of availability, that you make yourself available to your followers. You do this weekly Q and A on Twitter, and you have this sort of question and answer section to your website, and you engage on a very deep level, whereas it would be very easy for you to just write your posts and, you know, not really engage at all. And so, what is the, what is, you know, where does that come from, or what's going on with that?

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  Well, I think part of it is selfish in that, you know, I like the human connection of talking with people and being with people. And the other thing is, I just like, you know, a lot of people are in great pain right now because of various reasons, whether it's economic, or personal, or social, whatever. And I like to kind of, um, I don't know, and maybe it's egocentric of me, but I like to help if I can. And I always start off by saying, "I'm not qualified to help anybody, but if there's an opportunity where I can help or give my opinion, then I'm happy to do that."

• 1:05:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I mean, it definitely comes through. I mean, there's, again, it goes back to authenticity. I mean, there's a very genuine, um, you know, feeling that you get, that you really are there, you're being of service. And it's that spiritual equation of, you know, when you're, when you're truly in service, which I think you are, um, you know, that that comes back to you tenfold, a hundredfold, a thousandfold.

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  I, I agree with that, that you, you, um, you know, I have a technique in, um, in my next book, The Power of No, which I'll describe on, right now.

• 1:05:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, what is the, what is this about?

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  So, so, so The Power of No is in general about how we learn to say no in our lives. And by saying no, we accumulate a lot of power. But in, but I specifically address, I have one chapter which addresses the so-called law of attraction, where if you have positive thoughts, then miracles happen in your life. And- I have no opinion on that. You know, I do think miracles happen in life and I do think it's better to have positive thoughts. But what I recommend, one exercise, which I call the reverse law of attraction, which is that I'm going to do everything that the law of attraction says. I'm going to think positively and I'm going to give it up to the universe and then I'm going to do the best I can to live my life well. But any miracles that are

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  coming to me, I want them to go to somebody else. I practice thinking that I sincerely hope that these miracles go to people who are better served for them. And I think that that actually is a much better generator of goodwill and real massive miracles in life. You almost build up this karmic bank account that, you know, has infinite ramifications in your later life or even your later day. And so that's what I call the reverse law of attraction. And I find for myself, it works very well. So it's that kind of give at every level that I think has really big benefits.

• 1:07:18Rich Roll?

  And is this the subject of the power of no? Or I mean, what is the general kind of overarching thesis of this book?

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  The general thesis is that there are many layers of no. There's the kind of no where somebody wants to put your hand on a fire and you say no. There's the no where someone invites you to a wedding in Australia and you say no. And these are hard things sometimes to say no to. But that's at the basic level. Then there's the kind of what I call the evolutionary no, which we discussed earlier. There's all these ways which we've survived as a species that we no longer need now. And yet marketers still use them to manipulate us. So you learn to say no to those. And then gradually you get into more spiritual no's where there's lots of noise, there's lots of negative chatter in your head all the time. And learning to say no to that, and then finally learning

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  to say yes to a deeper silence that actually becomes very fulfilling. And it does become a power which you could use. And that's why I call it the power of no.

• 1:08:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I think the power of sort of living well begins and ends with your health and your wellness and in a true, in the truest sense, meaning a balance of mind, body, spirit, you know, emotion, all of these sorts of things have to be firing, you know, on all cylinders and they have to be in proper proportion and balance with each other. And if you don't have that, like if you don't have that first, then how do you know that these impulses that you're having are going to be sending you in the right direction? So when someone comes to you and says, James, I need to teach me how to start my own company, or I want you to teach me how to make a million dollars, I would imagine your question to them is, well, why do you want that? Like, well, let's, let's, let's step back and figure out what's

• 1:09:06Rich Roll?

  going on with you, what's driving you right now? Because if something is out of balance, then whatever kind of messages are impulsing that person to move in a certain direction can't necessarily be trustworthy.

• 1:09:18Speaker 01

  That's exactly right, Rich. I mean, I always tell people, you need to take a step back first and do what you write about in your, in your blog very much, which is make sure are you physically healthy? Are your, is your heart healthy? Like, are you emotionally spending time with people you, you love and respect and who love and respect you? Are you mentally healthy, which is what, what I was talking about earlier with the idea muscle? And are you spiritually healthy, which I can translate into, you know, are you grateful for the things that you have in your life? And if you have these four things, then, and you build a solid base of that with a daily practice of, daily practice of those four things, then and only then can you start to think, well, how can I make

• 1:10:01Speaker 01

  a million dollars? Or how could I get the woman of my dreams? Or whatever?

• 1:10:05Rich Roll?

  Right. And then, and that allows you, I think, to really embrace this choose yourself kind of time that we're living in right now, in terms of, you know, where you want to invest your energy, like where is, you know, what is the direction that, that you want to go in? I've been listening to Bret Easton Ellis's podcast. Have you, have you checked that out yet?

• 1:10:27Speaker 01

  No, but I didn't even know he had one. I got to listen to that.

• 1:10:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you should. He is pretty cool. He gets some great guests on there and he's, he's endlessly fascinating to me. But anyway, he, he sort of couches it, I mean, his- He talks about a very similar thing to you, but instead of calling it choose yourself, he calls it post-empire. He's like, "We're living in a post-empire culture right now, where all of these rules that used to kind of guide and govern us are kind of out the window, and it's a revolutionary time where we can embrace new ways of living our life and making a living, and we don't have to be shackled or limited by these gatekeepers. Whether you're a filmmaker, or you're a writer, or whatever it is that you're pursuing, there's a certain freedom that can be terrifying at the same time, which I think makes it

• 1:11:14Rich Roll?

  all the more important that you're spiritually grounded, and that you're emotionally intact, and spending time with people that are of a high vibration, etc.

• 1:11:23Speaker 01

  It's really true, because when you do a choose yourself career, as I'm sure you've realized, and you've even written somewhat about it, there's ups and downs. Like, no matter what, you're going to fight every demon you've ever had in your life, and being able to deal with that requires training, and strength, and strength at every level, not just physical strength. And it's hard, but it's also necessary now.

• 1:11:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is the warrior's path, for sure. And you will meet your maker, and you'll work harder than you ever have, but there's a level of satisfaction and joy in that, that you'll never get, being in a job. But it's not easy.

• 1:12:04Speaker 01

  Like, look, in a job, I never would have gotten to talk to you for an hour about all these different things. This has been great.

• 1:12:10Rich Roll?

  It's fantastic. One thing I want to talk to you about, before we close it up, is some of your thoughts on education. I mean, this is something that's going on with my family right now. We're homeschooling all four of our kids.

• 1:12:24Speaker 01

  Oh, that's great. Congratulations. I wish I could do that with mine. Like, mine, I tell them, "Let me homeschool you," but they never, they don't want to do it.

• 1:12:33Rich Roll?

  They don't want to do it? Oh, ours wanted it. They were dying for it. But it's frightening, you know what I mean? Because it's not what I was raised with, it's not what I know or what I'm used to. And I believe in it, and I'm seeing the results. As my kids get older, I can see the difference, and I know that we're doing a good thing, but it's also very frightening. And I wake up in the middle of the night, you know, "Am I doing the right thing? I don't want to screw my kids up."

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  You're definitely doing the right thing. If my... Testimony to this means anything, not that I know from experience because I don't do it with my kids. But I see how poor the traditional educational system is and it's just, it's really heartbreaking to me, actually.

• 1:13:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, uh, you know, I don't know what it's like where you live, but it has quite a bit to be desired out here. And I'm not in a position to, you know, spend the kind of money it would require to go to a fancy private school. And I

• 1:13:32Speaker 01

  They're worse. The fancy private schools are worse.

• 1:13:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I went to one of those. I know what that's like. But our oldest is, uh, is 18 and he decided not to go to college, uh, this year and he's working. And he's also serving as my podcast producer. He's been doing a great job.

• 1:13:49Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:13:49Rich Roll?

  Um, but, um, but I've, I've, I've read some things that you've written and heard you interviewed about your opinions on college. You know, whether or not to go to college at all, um, you know, how times are different now. Or at least the idea of considering delaying the, the prospect of going to college.

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, look, right now, as an example, MIT offers almost 100% of their courses online for free. Like the videos, the tests, the homework, the, you know, the extra readings. Uh, their entire college is online for free now. And yet people still want to spend $200,000 to go to MIT when they could have it for, totally for free. So, you know, people will argue, oh, well, it's a lifetime. It's, it's an experience of a lifetime. You meet such great friends. My feeling is you don't, a young 18 year old does not need to spend $200,000 to make friends. Like they'll probably figure out how to make friends for, for cheaper than that.

• 1:14:52Speaker 01

  You know, whether it's 200,000 or 100,000 or 30,000, it still doesn't cost that much to make good friends. Second, People say, "Well, you won't get a job if you don't go to college." That's just not true anymore. I mean, more than 50% of the unemployed don't have college degrees, for the first time ever. And this is at a time when they're also graduating with a trillion dollars in student loan debt, for the first time ever. So, we don't know what's gonna happen. This is a disaster. That you have a trillion dollars in debt being held by unemployed people. So, it's just a disaster waiting to happen. Second of all, you know, or third or fourth, whatever number we're at, your son, he's learning how to be a podcast producer.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  He's gonna learn so much in the next four years of actual, real-world situations that will help him make money, that will teach him, that will make him friends, that will build him a network. And when he's 22, he's gonna have a skill set and a network that every other graduating 22-year-old is gonna have to spend the next 10 years trying to get. Because, you know, just, this is the prime of his life, when he could learn the fastest, when he could learn the most. And there, you know, most college students, they don't remember anything they're learning in college. I often give-

• 1:16:09Rich Roll?

  Well, they're certainly not teaching you how to be an entrepreneur or to think creatively, for the most part. And I think we're increasingly in a skill-based economy, where it's a very specific skill set that is going to get you hired or not, not what school you went to. So, for example, if you know how to use Pro Tools, or you know how to use Final Cut Pro and you can edit a movie, you're more likely to get a job doing that than, you know, a liberal arts degree from a college, which, you know, doesn't guarantee you much of anything, I suppose, anymore. Or at least not what it used to.

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't guarantee you anything. Like, people, you're right. People are hiring for a skill, not for a piece of paper. You know, and if someone says, "Oh, what if you're gonna be a brain surgeon?" Okay, well then-

• 1:16:53Rich Roll?

  That's different.

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  That's different, because the law requires you to have gone to school. But, I would rather have someone who didn't go to school but has conducted 1,000 brain surgeries than someone who went to Harvard. So, it kind of suggests that an apprenticeship system would still have worked better than what the law prescribes. But, okay, you know, for some things, you need a degree by law. I will tell you, I've, you know, speaking of the law, I've spoken at many legal conferences. I have consulted to law firms. Uh, you know, if, you don't need a law degree to know the law. You don't need a, a medical degree to heal people. You don't need a computer science degree to program a computer. I mean, I'll give you an example.

• 1:17:38Speaker 01

  I went to undergrad and graduate school at some of the best schools for computer science and computer programming. Then when I actually had a job at HBO, actually was my first kind of quote unquote, real job. My programming skills were so bad that they had to send me to a remedial school to learn how to program. And I had just studied, you know, in undergrad and grad school, five years of programming. And had jobs as programmers in the school. It was, but I couldn't program a real computer in the real world.

• 1:18:07Rich Roll?

  I mean, I went to law school and I enjoyed law school, but I, it, it didn't spend, there wasn't too much time spent on the actual practice of law or what I was going to be doing day to day when I got to that big corporate law firm. And I had to learn all of that when I got there. And there's an expectation when you arrive that you already know how to do all these things. And I didn't know the first thing about it.

• 1:18:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's really sad, the divergence between, um, traditional education and what you actually need to, to, to learn, to enjoy the world and also what you would enjoy to learn, you know, to have fun on the planet, which is what we're here for.

• 1:18:46Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, I think we need to get back to more of an apprenticeship type economy. You know, I mean, Hollywood store sort of still works that way. And I think it functions well that way. It's very much a meritocracy in that sense. And it has been, it's, it's never been a place where it relied on the, the piece of paper and where you went to school. It was all about your work and no matter who you are, whether you went, got an MBA at Stanford, you still started in the, you still start in the mailroom.

• 1:19:11Speaker 01

  Right. And you know, uh, every choose yourself career doesn't need a college degree. So doing these podcasts, we, we, there, there is no degree for podcasting.

• 1:19:20Rich Roll?

  No, there is not.

• 1:19:22Speaker 01

  Doing a blog that.

• 1:19:22Rich Roll?

  Well, maybe we should create one though, and then charge people a lot of money to teach them how to podcast. And then you could give them a piece of paper.

• 1:19:29Speaker 01

  Right. Sadly, people will take that course.

• 1:19:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  So, but you know, like, no, you don't need a degree to have a blog that has millions of readers. Like, these are things that you're gonna earn on your own and through, through trial and tribulation and, and everything. So, uh.

• 1:19:45Speaker 01

  You know, I agree. I agree with your approach to homeschooling. I'm glad your 18-year-old is not going to college. I can't think of a better way to start life.

• 1:19:52Rich Roll?

  Well, I'll let him know. He'll be happy to hear you say that.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  Excellent, as he produces this podcast.

• 1:19:58Rich Roll?

  Exactly, when he's listening to this. Maybe I won't tell him. I'll just let him hear it when he listens to the show.

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  That's great.

• 1:20:04Rich Roll?

  All right. So I'll let you go in a second, but the last thing I wanted to kind of ask you to kind of top it off is, you know, what would you say to somebody who's listening to this, who is in that cubicle and feels stuck and feels, you know, like a prisoner in a life maybe they didn't choose and really can't see their way through it, who's saying, "Well, choose yourself. That sounds great, but, you know, I can't do that. And I've got kids and I've got a mortgage and I've gotta, you know, pay the bills and, you know, maybe in the next life."

• 1:20:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure. I agree with him. Maybe in the next life. You know, I don't say that in a bad way. The next life could be right now. You kind of have to take, again, that step back and say, "Okay, well, am I writing down ideas of other things I could be doing? Am I making sure I at least walk 20 minutes a day and I'm eating healthy and I'm sleeping well? Am I happy with my current relationships? Am I grateful for everything I have? Am I grateful that I have a job, for instance, you know, as opposed to always complaining about my job?" This is the beginning of how you start to choose yourself. And, you know, then I would suggest, you know, ways of being mindful. For instance, when you take your 20-minute walk, let's say you live in a city, look at the rooftops. Often, people

• 1:21:21Speaker 01

  just, you know, are glazed. Their eyes are glazed and they mesh with everybody in the crowd on the sidewalks. But take a chance to look at the rooftops around you. It's often where the architect gets to do his flourish after he's finished building all the floors and see the artistry in the life around you. And that begins to kind of awaken these brain cells so you can start to see your way through this choose-yourself life.

• 1:21:48Rich Roll?

  I think the more that you can kind of embrace mindfulness as a way of living on a daily basis, that will unlock a certain part of you that you can then begin to explore. So I agree, it's not about going into your boss's office and just quitting that day. It's about starting to put the pieces together about what you might be passionate about. Because I think that most people, we're in a culture that compels us not to look inward. And so, a lot of people, myself included, you know, for many, many years, I didn't know what I had to offer. I didn't know what would make me happy, or what I was passionate about. Because I was so disconnected from myself. So it's been many years of doing that exploration

• 1:22:32Rich Roll?

  to kind of get from that place to where I am now. So it's not about, you know, an overnight thing. It's a journey that you decide you're going to undertake, and you begin to implement these changes slowly over time that aggregate and move you in a new trajectory, so that five years later, you're in a very different place.

• 1:22:51Speaker 01

  That's a really important point. It's the small steps. It's that first step on the yellow brick road. Like, you can say, "Oh, I can't, I got the bills to pay, I got the mortgage." That's all true. So just take a small step today. That's all you can do.

• 1:23:05Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Thanks, James.

• 1:23:08Speaker 01

  Thank you, Rich. Thank you very much for having me on the show.

• 1:23:10Rich Roll?

  I really appreciate the time. So, for people that want to check out James, the best way to do that is to go to jamesaltucher.com.

• 1:23:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:19Rich Roll?

  Right? And @jaltucher on Twitter.

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:23:23Rich Roll?

  Where else?

• 1:23:24Speaker 01

  Choose Yourself. The book Choose Yourself.

• 1:23:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course. Is that a website too?

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  No, just on Amazon.

• 1:23:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, definitely. Use the Amazon banner at richroll.com. Buy Choose Yourself, which, I don't know that I mentioned. I love that book. I just read it on the plane to New York the other day.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  Oh, excellent.

• 1:23:42Rich Roll?

  And it was, yeah, I just breezed through it. It's fantastic. It's definitely a primer on how to implement change into your life and improve the quality of your life. I recommend everybody pick it up and check it out. So, thanks, James. I appreciate it.

• 1:23:57Speaker 01

  Thanks, Rich.

• 1:24:03Rich Roll?

  All right, everybody. That's our show. Thanks for tuning in. Like I said before, I've been a big fan of James for some time, so it was a real treat for me to get to talk to him. And I hope you feel the same. I hope you got something good out of that. Before we close it out, a quick announcement, I said it last week, I'll say it again, on a future upcoming episode, I am going to give away five signed, personally inscribed paperbacks of Finding Ultra. How do I get one? Well, send me a question you would like answered via my website. Don't do it on Twitter or Facebook. If you do, it's harder for me to organize everything. So, send me an email through my website with a question

• 1:24:46Rich Roll?

  you'd like answered on the podcast. I'm going to pick five of those. I'm going to read them on the show and do my best to answer them. And then I will award you guys with the five people that I pick with a personally inscribed copy of the book. So do that. I'm not sure when we're going to record that episode, but probably sometime in the next two weeks or so. Also, a couple appearances coming up. If you want to come and meet me in person, hear me give a talk. All that information is on my site at richroll.com. But to recap, April 1, I'll be at Colorado College, speaking at the school there, which will be cool. April 30, I'm going to be in Burlington, Ontario, not Vermont, Ontario,

• 1:25:31Rich Roll?

  speaking at the Performing Arts Center for an event being hosted by Advica Health. And then on May 2, in London, Ontario, not London, England, London, Ontario, Julie and I are participating in the Holistic Health Diary Retreat with the two girls from the Holistic Health Diary Podcast, Gillian Manbeck and Ange Peters. So that's going to be cool. May 4, I'm doing another event in Toronto. I don't have the details on that yet, but I should very, very soon. And we'll let you know as soon as I have a website on that that I can share with you guys. Want to support the show? Of course you do, right? Best way to do that.

• 1:26:15Rich Roll?

  Is to use the Amazon banner at richroll.com. Just click on that, go to Amazon, buy whatever you're gonna buy. It does not cost you a cent extra and Amazon kicks us some commission change and that helps us pay the bills. It helps me pay Tyler, my son, to produce this podcast. So like I said before, you are supporting youth and entrepreneurship when you do that. And again, it's nothing comes out of your pocket. So it's a great way to support the show. But the best way to support the show is if you've been enjoying it, just tell a friend. That's it. If you want to go to the extra mile, you can donate to the show. You can subscribe on a weekly or monthly basis and throw us whatever dollar amount

• 1:26:57Rich Roll?

  you feel good about. And that's all up at richroll.com. So that is the best way to do it. If you want to learn more about getting plant-based, you're plant curious, you want more plants in your life and in your diet, you can check out our Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition. That's up at mindbodygreen.com. It's a three and a half hour online course, three and a half hours of streaming video content. There's an online community, there's downloadable tools, recipes, shopping list, all kinds of good stuff, a free copy of our JiCD Cookbook, questions on the forum where we can interact with you. And yeah, should answer most of your questions about how to implement this way of eating into your lifestyle.

• 1:27:42Rich Roll?

  Of course, go to richroll.com for all your plant power provisions, lots of products there to take your game to the next level, including our newest offering, our t-shirts, our Plant Power t-shirts. Those seem to be really popular and I'm so pleased. So wear your affiliation with this lifestyle proudly. And as always, you can read my musings on my blog at richroll.com, like me on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram and YouTube. On Twitter and Instagram, I'm just at Rich Roll, pretty easy to find. And that's it, everybody. So I'm out of here. Thank you so much. Have a great week and choose yourself. You're worth it. We'll see you next week. Thanks. Peace. Plants.