John Pearson: Modeling Healthy Masculinity With The First Male Supermodel

What does it mean to be a good man? Furthermore, how do we combat toxic masculinity? And how do we find purpose in aging? Today we explore these topics and more with the world’s first male supermodel, John Pearson. John is a pioneer of the male modeling profession, and was the most sought-after male model through the 1990s, the face for some of the world’s biggest brands. But John is here today not so much because of his past—although it’s incredibly fascinating—but because of the very unique life he lives today. We discuss his wild career and the ways it has impacted his perspective on art, culture, the power of an image, and the modern world of influence. We also dive into his philosophy on parenting, mental health, and modeling healthy masculinity—themes that underscore his very cool lifestyle and self-improvement digital magazine, Mr. Feel Good. Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube. Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Athletic Greens: https://www.athleticgreens.com/richroll Squarespace: Squarespace.com/RichRoll InsideTracker: insidetracker.com/RichRoll Calm: calm.com/richroll JOOVV: Joovv.com/RICHROLL Native: nativedeo.com/rrp Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

  Eating well rarely falls apart because of one big failure. It's the daily question that wears you down. Like, what am I actually gonna make tonight? What's in the fridge? And it's exactly why we built the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized, plant-based meal planning program that matches you with recipes based on your taste, your allergies, your cooking skills, and how much time you actually have. You build, through this program, a balanced, nutrient-dense plan for your entire household in a few minutes. Then it generates a grocery list for you with one click that plugs right into our delivery partners. All the recipes in the program are built by dietitians with culinary training. Plus, you get your own food coach to help you problem-solve along the way.

• 0:44Rich Roll?

  It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:13Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  For us to survive, for us to thrive, part of our lives just have to be connected on a really authentic level.

• 1:26Rich Roll?

  Today's gonna be a little bit different, a wee bit unique, and that's because my guest is unique. His name is John Pearson, and John has the very interesting distinction of being the original male supermodel.

• 1:41Speaker 01

  For me, I always knew that if you had a good time and you really engaged with somebody, if you do that with genuine integrity, that transmits to the person who's looking at that picture.

• 1:55Rich Roll?

  He's a guy who pioneered the male modeling profession. He was the most sought-after male model throughout the 90s. And he was also the male face of George Michael's iconic "Freedom" music video, which was directed by a young David Fincher.

• 2:08Speaker 01

  And actually, I went into George's trailer to rehearse the song, and he actually forgot the words. And I did the orange in one peel and chucked it and it landed perfectly all in one. So I knew I was on the right track.

• 2:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But it's important that you guys know that John is a friend. He's a kind, beautiful and wise soul. And he's here today, not so much because of his past, although that is of course fascinating. He's lived a very unique life and we do go into it. But really more because of how he lives today. And it's all coming right up, but first.

• 2:48Rich Roll?

  Okay. In this conversation, we discuss mental health and modeling healthy masculinity, which are the themes that underscore John's very cool lifestyle and self-improvement digital magazine, which is called Mr. Feel Good.

• 3:02Speaker 01

  No matter how tired I am, no matter how worn out I am, I want to be present. You know, I want to be real.

• 3:08Rich Roll?

  John is a very special guy. He's really one of my absolute favorite people and I'm really excited to introduce you to him. So let's do that right now. This is me and John Pearson. Enjoy.

• 3:22Rich Roll?

  Are you ready?

• 3:23Speaker 01

  I'm so ready. I'm so ready.

• 3:25Rich Roll?

  I'm delighted to have you here. You know, it's interesting because we've been friends for a couple of years and I know you, but I don't know you super well. And it's been really fun, kind of doing internet excavation of your life.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  Oh, my goodness.

• 3:38Rich Roll?

  You lived an incredibly interesting life. And the first thing I want to explore with you is like my, the sense that I had, kind of learning more and more about your journey, is this idea that if I had experienced one one hundredth of what you were exposed to as a young person in your twenties, in New York, in London, Tokyo, these adventures that you've had, I would most certainly be dead. Like, how are you such a well-adjusted, grounded, you know, gentle soul after, you know, all the things that you, you know, the kind of

• 4:17Rich Roll?

  You know, worlds that you've navigated.

• 4:19Speaker 01

  Oh, wow, that's a big one. And thank you for that. I think it was just very important for me from the start to sort of establish some sort of control or equilibrium about what I was navigating as a young man going into this world, going into this business, going into this thing that was so in contrast to where I came from. And it just, as a Yorkshireman from North England, you know, you always used to hear, don't ever change. So there was a real grounding roots in me anyway, growing up where I wanted to just, I kind of loved the whole idea of adventure in life.

• 5:02Speaker 01

  And I was really, from the age of four, probably, but definitely from the age of 11, I was just really wanting to see everything and not be put in a box and explore and be excited about life. And it always came back to, okay, I can see all the chaos around me and I can dance within the chaos, but I have to stay grounded and rooted. And it wasn't something that was, you know, that I had some magic pill for. It took work and it took energy and it took focus to sort of determine what kept me grounded. And at times, you know, it was pretty major during the eighties and nineties when I'm traveling and working nonstop, twice to Europe in a week, working both times. And that went on for years, just to keep your, sort of, keep your head.

• 5:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 5:45Speaker 01

  You know?

• 5:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it sounds as if there was some sort of self-defense mechanism inside of you that put up some guardrails. Cause I imagine that you've seen quite a bit of carnage. I mean, that period in the eighties and, you know, late eighties, New York City, you know, the worlds that you were in. I mean, there's got to be like a lot of, you know, dead friends in your wake as a result of kind of lifestyle that was happening.

• 6:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that have. It was incredible. It was incredible. It was incredible. And at times.

• 6:21Speaker 01

  It was too much because at times the traveling and being the center of attention and turning up and playing the clown in a way, because I always felt part of my job description was to not be afraid to be the fool. So I could, so I could be light, so I can be present, so that I could serve the people around me. And but there were times when, yeah, it was, it was pretty mental, you know, is the traveling around the world, then going out, then doing crew dinners every night and always been on, always been on. And I think when I was in my mid twenties, I just got to this point where I just, I didn't want anyone to touch me, to come near me. I had multiple bookings for the next six months. And I said to my agent, much to his chagrin, you know, I, I, I, I can't do this anymore. So I went

• 7:06Speaker 01

  off to Jamaica on my own, never been to Jamaica and spent a week there just sort of writing and meditating and being clear and trying to find peace. And then actually, when I did that, when I came back, that was the first time that I feel I'd really honored myself and given myself the time. And that just shifted something in me. And I thought, oh, this, I can, I can have control of myself. I can sort of figure these things out and navigate and know who I am. You know, I mean, it's an ongoing project, even at this age, but.

• 7:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, in 2022, to do that would be something that would be celebrated. But, you know, back then, probably you were told like, you're crazy, or why are you doing that? Or you need to do as you're told and show up or?

• 7:48Speaker 01

  I was never told, you need to do as you're told. No way.

• 7:52Rich Roll?

  Because you hear these stories about the modeling world and you're a piece of meat and you show up here and you hit your marks and you, you know, put on the, put on the whatever they want you to do. But it sounds like your experience was more collaborative and healthy.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  It was. And I think if you know, if you, and I don't mean to sound self righteous, because I was very robbly at times. But I think if you enter a room and you go into a place knowing who you are, people pick up on that. And if you want to be abused, it can happen. But for me, I, I never, you know, I never.

• 8:30Speaker 01

  I don't think, I, I, I fought at times with the idea of being a male model. Cause I'm a northerner, you know, and I'm from a, you know.

• 8:38Rich Roll?

  It is a weird thing.

• 8:39Speaker 01

  It's a weird thing.

• 8:40Rich Roll?

  I mean, it's a thing like, like, uh, you know, you're, you're such a recognizable face. People that don't follow that world at all, probably see you and think, oh, I know that guy. Or maybe I met him or I know him from somewhere. I mean, there's no magazine that you haven't been in. So at some point it gets imprinted on the unconscious mind, but they don't know you. They may not know your name and that has to be kind of disorienting for you as well. Right?

• 9:09Rich Roll?

  No?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  Not really, no.

• 9:11Rich Roll?

  I feel like I'm on, on the wrong track here.

• 9:12Speaker 01

  No, no, I want, I want to answer your questions, cause I, you know, I.

• 9:15Rich Roll?

  Disabuse me of all of these ideas.

• 9:18Speaker 01

  I, I, I look at myself, you know, and what I've done and it's, it's not very interesting to me. What I'm doing now is really interesting to me.

• 9:25Rich Roll?

  We're gonna get to that.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  No, I know. Um, but no, I mean, I'm trying to think, you know, I saw a lot of carnage. I saw a lot of, I saw a lot of behavior that wasn't great, but I always naturally was empathetic. And I was always, I was sort of brought up to stand up for people and stand up for myself. So I never really was chasing conflict, but I wanted to just make the day, which I do to this day. The best day it could be. And, and I was working too hard and yeah, I had fun and you know, I, all my friends were the DJs in New York. So I come back to New York and I always had the best place to go to. I was in the DJ booth. I saw all that. I enjoyed all that, but I also had to get up the next day.

• 10:07Speaker 01

  And I've always had this sense of responsibility and a work ethic, cause I'm a working class boy from Yorkshire, to get there and do the best I can in the day with what I've got. So there was always a really grown up kind of stoic, get to it, you know, have a good attitude and that's where you'll succeed. And I was really, I was really focused about having an interesting life. That's what it's been. But as far as your question, you know, being just a pretty face and all those things and feeling, you know. I don't know, I didn't go to a great university or anything like that. I didn't have that education. I educated myself reading on books, going across the Atlantic and around the world for 25 years. You know, that, that I kind of wrestled with that at times during my twenties

• 10:50Speaker 01

  because I was trying to figure out what I really wanted to do, what my purpose in life was. But I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, you know, I, I, I just got, found peace with it eventually. And I just thought, look, I'm really, I can't swear, can I? I can, but anyway. But I'm really fucking lucky and fortunate. Literally what I wanted to do, I was coming home from a girlfriend's place on two, two buses on a Sunday night in rainy Yorkshire. And I saw this billboard of four, a couple, two guys, two girls in bikinis, sort of in trunks in the Seychelles. And I thought, oh, I want a bit of that life. And, and literally within a year, it started to happen. And I never thought it'd go to where it went, but it did.

• 11:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 11:30Speaker 01

  You know, so it's pretty amazing.

• 11:31Rich Roll?

  I mean, you're in your fourth decade of doing this thing.

• 11:34Speaker 01

  Oh, man, really?

• 11:35Rich Roll?

  Come on, we're the same age. We could, we could, we could have this conversation.

• 11:39Speaker 01

  Own it, yeah.

• 11:39Rich Roll?

  But that sense of responsibility, that, that sense of having to be a grown up, you know, came, was visited upon you early, right? Like when your father passed away at a young age.

• 11:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, my parents divorced when I was four years old. I have two older sisters and a mum. I went to live with them an hour and a half away. And my father for the, until I was 11, was a great father and saw us every other weekend. Uh, but he passed away and, and yeah, it was, it was massive. It was massive. And I don't think, with all respect to my family and those around me, and being English, I think at that point in time, there was the sort of counselling and the support that a young person would have. I was literally told by someone to just go to my father's grave. You know, my mum asked someone, a man, a, a, a supposed mentor, what, you know, have a word with John.

• 12:34Speaker 01

  And I, you know, little boy in a little cap and a little suit stood at his grave. And through, and this guy said, oh, just chuck some dirt on there and say, don't worry, dad, I've got this. I'll look after everyone, really. And I did. You know, that's what I did.

• 12:47Rich Roll?

  Amazing advice.

• 12:48Speaker 01

  I know. I know. You know, and then I was told by one of, a family member, a senior family member, that I could go to private school and I could have a great. You know, education, but I was terrified to leave my mother and my kids, you know, and I said, I'll get everything out of my comprehensive school that I can get out of a private school. And I did, but I was, you know, it was just, it was, there wasn't that support system. There wasn't that understanding or that.

• 13:14Rich Roll?

  No, no, no healthy male mentors.

• 13:17Speaker 01

  No healthy male mentors, no.

• 13:18Rich Roll?

  So you just went and got a bunch of jobs, right?

• 13:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, started at 12 in the market, selling vegetables and fruit and was, you know, fantastic. I'd work from 7 a.m. till 5:30. I'd work with every kind of person, every sort of, you know, in the, from poor people, working class people, rich people, posh people, educated, not educated. I'd come home at night and I'd have five bags of old second fruit, which I'd sell again. I only made two pound fifty a day, half an hour off in the, in the, at lunchtime. And then I went from there into a jeans store, which is a really hip jeans store and was a manager there within weeks and was the, you know, the best salesman in the whole fifty, out of fifty-three stores. And so I just got busy and I got, and I just wanted to be independent

• 14:04Speaker 01

  and I wanted to get out there in the world. And I just wanted to have, you know, the career officer couldn't figure me out. They said, we know you'd do well, but we don't know what you'll do. You could go and work in the factory. And that was like, no, you know, I can't work. I want to see the world. I was, I loved American television shows and, you know, palm trees and California and.

• 14:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So that dream was kind of ruminating in the, in the back of your consciousness. And then one day someone walks into the denim shop, right? Like, and this kind of changes everything.

• 14:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, I was, I was selling stretch jeans and I loved it. And some guy.

• 14:41Rich Roll?

  This was the era, so this must have been like eighty?

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Three, I think.

• 14:46Rich Roll?

  Eighty-three, eighty-four. This is Jordache and Brooke Shields.

• 14:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. We remember it well. We could see the visions.

• 14:55Rich Roll?

  The formative years.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, they were. So I was really, I was having a great time. And yeah, a guy came in and sort of said, hey, I'd like to take pictures of you. And at first I was a bit, what's this? A little bit suspicious, but then I thought, let's have a go. And I was mad about sort of James Dean and Montgomery Clift and American Gregory Peck and all the movies. And and as soon as I got on a set and I took my sister with me, actually, because I was a little bit nervous, my own clothes and he just started shooting and I just felt really at ease. And I felt like, you know, I had that youthful sort of confidence and aspirations. And I just, I just, I just felt at ease, you know, and I thought, oh, this is fun. This is good. I can, you know, I can make this happen. There's some joy in here. There's some energy. So, yeah.

• 15:38Rich Roll?

  And how long between that experience and everything kind of clicking into place in New York City?

• 15:45Speaker 01

  Um, gosh, I think after that, my sister sent some pictures off to this magazine in London called Look Now, which was the, the sort of, you know, the teen, teen bopper sort of magazine of the day. And they invited me down to London. I think I'd only been to London once before to see a play with my school. And I went down, got in a black taxi for the first time, went to North London, went in and there were two extraordinarily beautiful French girls. And I brought my cassette tape with me of all my music, shoved it on and had an amazing time, shot an editorial. Then I went back up to Yorkshire that night and carried on working. And then they called me back and said, would you come and do another magazine

• 16:27Speaker 01

  and another cover? So I went down, did that. And I don't think, I wasn't even living in London then. I moved to London when I was 18. And again, I had, I wanted to be an actor. I had no idea what would happen, but the agency took me on. Um, I started working very quickly. I was like, okay, this is a bit weird. I wasn't sort of, I didn't feel that I looked like the male models I'd seen in, you know, Vogue and everything else. I felt like a bit of a scruffy outsider. And then things started to happen. And then I went to Japan. I made a bit of money. I had an extraordinary experience in 86. And then the idea was to come to New York on November the 4th. Nineteen eighty six, I flew to New York with a great buddy of mine and about two

• 17:09Speaker 01

  days later, it just started to happen. I did the cover of Self with Uma Thurman. I, you know, I went in my first limousine. I saw, I met Cindy Crawford for the first time. She just arrived from Chicago. I couldn't believe it.

• 17:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  And it just steamrolled. And I really thought that it was just going to be, you know, a couple of months and this is fun and I'll wait tables and I'll be an actor and get into the actors' studio. And it just started and it just was perpetual and it just, you know, I, in those days as well, you could book a client and you'd have them, you know, twice a year or four times a year for six or seven years. So you really became, it was before actors started going on the front and celebrities started going on the front of magazines. So it was just this, you know, exponential, immediate growth that happened. And it sort of took me by surprise, but I thought, right, I'm gonna make the most of this.

• 18:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, it was also like a timing thing because this was all occurring at the very beginning of this whole supermodel, you know, kind of obsession where culture, like this, the whole supermodel thing, right? Like, wasn't a thing until like the mid, I mean, when did that start? I mean, you were there, right? When the genesis of that?

• 18:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:22Rich Roll?

  And it was this intersection of like music, rock and roll, culture, fashion, and, and the kind of glossy magazine era. I mean, magazines, like, it's just not what it was back then. Like, it was a big deal, right? And all of that was kind of happening, you know, at the same time. It was like this perfect storm and New York seemed to be like the place where that was occurring. And then there you were.

• 18:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. How lucky am I? It was great.

• 18:49Rich Roll?

  And these, these women become household names, right? You know, and you're right there. Like, I want to talk about the George Michael videos. That's like crazy, right? Like, it's just so iconic, all of it.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, it was, it was, you know, it was a magical moment. It was, as you say, like a fusion of fashion and, and film and excitement and youth. And there was a real movement. And, yeah, yeah, that great cover, I forget what year it was, but it was around ninety one, maybe ninety two, of Peter Limbok shot of all the girls on the cover of Vogue. And then the Freedom video and I was the guy, I was one of the guys, but I was sort of the prominent guy and I almost didn't do it. So it's really funny, but it was only because I knew the girls because I worked with them a lot and I thought, all right, I'll do this. But yeah, it was a magical time. It was extraordinary. It was vital. It was happening. It was dynamic. It was a great time to be alive in New York at that time. It really was.

• 19:40Rich Roll?

  I hadn't watched that video in a while and I watched it last night and I was like, wow. Like it, it does not, there's nothing about it that feels dated or aged. I mean, the song is so incredible and the, you know, the women are just radiant in that. And then you're like, you are the stand-in for George Michael. Like you are his sort of it or, you know, uh, super ego throughout that video. It's really quite something. And I couldn't help but think like, this is part of the myth-making of, of what the supermodel, you know, was at that time. And it's sort of like this touchstone of where the culture was because that, that video was also directed by David Fincher, right? One of his early things like.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  He was just, I think he was just editing his first Alien movie, or Alien movie, his first feature. Yeah.

• 20:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 20:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  So all of those like, you know, culturally relevant people in one place at one time. Was George Michael like there behind the scenes?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  I should tell you, I should tell you, that was a crazy week because I was literally working in New York. I flew to Stockholm. I shot in Stockholm. I took a train to Lapland. I shot two nights in Lapland during their summer. So there was, I was in this hotel room with blackout blinds and I literally still had to sleep with my head in the bathroom at the back of the room because it was still coming through. I left there. I went to Paris. I did a night shoot for, I think it was, it wasn't Brandy because yeah, it was a Brandy ad at the Garden Ord. So I did a night shoot. Then I flew to London at six in the morning straight from the shoot. A car picked me up. I had to learn the song on the way to the studios.

• 21:14Rich Roll?

  Cause you're lip syncing.

• 21:15Speaker 01

  I'm lip syncing it. And I was really sort of like, I want to learn this. You know, I didn't know there'd be an auto cue. So I was really keen, but it was a really easy song to get into, but there's a couple of. Couple of verses that are tricky because they're so similar. Um, put it on and we'll sing it now.

• 21:30Rich Roll?

  Not me.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  And, and then I got there and you know, first person I saw was Christie and that, which was great. It was a delight. I, I shot my days with Christie and with Linda. I mean, amazing people, amazing humans, incredible, incredible models really, and, and humans more so. Um, and I met George, you know, and, and actually I went into George, George's trailer to rehearse the song. And he actually forgot the words. So I was pleased that I'd learnt them and, and it just was, it was a magical day. It was a magical day and I literally wore my own clothes that I turned up in. Camilla, the stylist, you know, she said, oh, just wear that. I had long johns on, I think, and wore my own clothes and, and nothing happened that day.

• 22:16Speaker 01

  And then the, the producer came over to me and started, oh, are you free tomorrow? Can you shoot tomorrow? Cause we've got a wrap today. I said, sure. He said, you don't mind doing it for free? I said, yes, I do. I said, I know how much they're getting. And I was really, I was really sort of.

• 22:31Rich Roll?

  You're lucky to be in this.

• 22:33Speaker 01

  It's working class though, but it was that sort of principle thing. So I came back the next day and I had an orange and I was peeling an orange. And David came over with George and said, right, John, hi, nice to see you. You know, uh, what should we do? He said, I like the way you're peeling your orange. I said, well, last night I saw this great picture of Paul Newman outside the Actors Centre, sat in the doorway, looking at the script. He said, perfect. And he built me the frame. And literally it was three takes and we had it done.

• 22:57Rich Roll?

  Uh, yeah, cause you're lounging back.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, lounging back. And, and I, and I did the orange in one peel and chucked it and it landed perfectly all in one. So I knew I was on the right track.

• 23:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But was there a sense, nobody could have known like what, what a big deal that video was going to be. I mean, times were different. We lived in much more of a monoculture and MTV was important then. And when videos like this premiered, it was an event, right? And that video definitely struck a cultural chord at the time.

• 23:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I, I really just thought it was another job, which sounds very sort of, um, I hope it doesn't sound arrogant, but it was like another job and I was off to another job the next day. And I didn't realize the importance, the gravitas of it until I was working about three months later, because also in those days, which was lovely, there was an anticipation of seeing the work three months later.

• 23:48Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  And it wasn't immediate and it wasn't forgotten and then it became, it sort of built its iconic status in a way and you waited to see those things. And I was in a hotel shooting in a bar in Miami and suddenly the television was on in the back and it was MTV and it came on and everyone just started bopping and, "Oh wow, wow." And I was like, "Okay, I think I'm in this if they haven't cut me out." And the opening scene, I think, is my nose and then suddenly it happened, I thought, "Ooh, that's pretty good."

• 24:17Rich Roll?

  Right, because you sing the first verse.

• 24:19Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:20Rich Roll?

  You're like the first person we see, I believe, right?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, for sure, yeah. And then, of course, it just became this phenomenon, which went on and on and to this day, and I really didn't understand the importance of it until later. And, you know, when I, well, you know, I'm just really glad to be a part of it now.

• 24:39Rich Roll?

  Did you ever cross paths with George again after that?

• 24:42Speaker 01

  I saw him once in The Ivy and he was absolutely lovely and I wish I'd seen him more, he was such a talent, he was so extraordinary. Oh, that's the other thing, when I met him for the first time, this is, I think it was just bravado, it's just boyish stuff, I went up, I said, "Oh, hello, George, I know you, I know all about you because our birthdays are two days apart, but you're two years older than me." That was the first line I said to him and he kind of looked back at me like, "Who's this strange person?" But then we just, you know, we'd just gotten really well, he was very warm, he was into it and he was just right there and he really wanted to make a statement.

• 25:16Rich Roll?

  Over the course of your career, you've worked with essentially every great photographer. What is your sense of like what makes for a great image? And how do you think about like the myth-making of those images? Because so many of the campaigns that you've been involved with are really about telling a story or, you know, creating, you know, a sense of an aspirational lifestyle, right? That like inspires people, there's a dark side to it, I suppose, as well, but there's something kind of really cool from a creative perspective to work with such talented people who kind of understand the power of what they're creating.

• 26:00Speaker 01

  What's the question?

• 26:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I don't know. It was really more like, here's like, I'm throwing you this ball.

• 26:05Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:05Rich Roll?

  It's just more like, uh, something I want to better understand.

• 26:09Speaker 01

  Right.

• 26:09Rich Roll?

  Just like working with these amazing image makers.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13Rich Roll?

  Like, what makes them great? Like, what, what is the difference between, you know, somebody who is utilitarian as a photographer and that person who just sees something that no one else sees and can capture that?

• 26:24Speaker 01

  It's, I mean, I work with everyone and I, like you say, and I've, I've worked at every level. And I'm, you know, I've still to this day, I'm very grateful to work at the, the high level as well and do campaigns, but it's when someone's got a signature. And if someone's got a signature of a look or the way they are, they're very set in the way they want to produce something and they're concentrated and the environment around them is all on the same level of support, then you just know, you knew that you were in the company of people who would be doing something, would be photographing you in, in a way that elevated the whole day. And you knew you were in great hands and you learned from that. And then you were free within that to sort of create.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  I was always looking to do stuff that was different because I, you know, I got sicker looking at myself and you kind of, you just want to see what can I learn here? So I picked up, the, the people who are really amazing are the people that are concentrated and they really love what they do and they have a signature which is, which sort of separates them from the mass and they, they are sincere with that and they, I just immediately think of Peter Lindberg, who was extraordinary. He had such joy and he loved what he did and he worked hard and he put everything into it, but he ran a set that was all, you know, focused on us all having a wonderful time

• 27:50Speaker 01

  and also getting the great image that would stand the test of time. And they really, they do and they will. All his bitches are amazing.

• 27:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 27:58Speaker 01

  And there's a few people like that. And we had great art directors. Fabien Baran, you know, was extraordinary and Trey Laird, and I worked with them on multiple campaigns and editorials and they were characters and they really knew what they wanted and they were, they were ahead of the day. They were the pioneers and so you, you just soak it all up and you learn to read a room. That's what you do. You learn to read a room and you, you learn to, if there's, you know, I'm, I'm very sensitive to people, empathetic, I think. And, and for me, it was really important as well. And it is really important just to treat everyone with respect, no matter whether the craft people or the people, you know, who were paying my bill, you know.

• 28:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I think that that's, that must be part and parcel of your, your kind of longevity recipe, right? It's a, it's a, I mean, fashion is a youth obsessed

• 28:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:47Rich Roll?

  culture and business.

• 28:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:48Rich Roll?

  You've been, you've been doing this for decades. You still book and you still work.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:53Rich Roll?

  Um, I mean, you're unbelievably handsome and we all know that.

• 28:56Speaker 01

  Oh, please.

• 28:56Rich Roll?

  You're a beautiful man, John, but ultimately I have to believe that, you know, people want to hire people they like to work with.

• 29:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 29:04Rich Roll?

  That they've, they've had good experiences working with in the past. And, you know, fashion, I'm sure is, you know, sort of spitting out people all the time who are, you know, handsome or beautiful or what have you, but are difficult or not team players and don't respect the process or whatever it is. So the fact that you're still so, you know, actively, you know, engaged in this world is, you know, a tribute, I think, more to your kind of life philosophy or the manner in which you treat people. I mean, I've been around you enough to know, you know, what a lovely human you are and how curious you are about other people and the kind of level of respect and care that you inject all of your interactions with.

• 29:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's, um, I think it was always for me, one of the, one of the reasons was I just wanted to rebook and I knew that was really interesting. So that was almost conscious. So there was an element of that, which was, you know, being a salesman, I think, that came from my market days. And I think, but all, I mean, to me, I looked at magazines and when I was in Italy, all these Americans were there and I hadn't really met Americans before. And they were all gymmed up and six-packed and everything else. And that was so not me. We were the sort of, you know, we prided ourselves, my little sort of motley crew of Europeans, our, our little tribe on, you know, Richard Burton and Peter O'Toole and drinking and going out and, you know, we don't go to the gym and all that sort

• 30:26Speaker 01

  of stuff, which, you know, now I'm the age I am, I'm like, okay, I should have maybe looked after myself a bit more. But, um, but no, it was all always about that. It's always about. Feeling good, it's always about raising the day. We're really fortunate to do what we do and to have the life and the places I've been and the people I've met. And it was just, well, I've got to have a good attitude with that. There's always going to be better looking. There's always going to be someone new on the block. But for me, it was always about connecting with the people on more than just the superficial level. I wanted to really engage. I am naturally curious in people's stories. So, you know, I'm just grateful that I'm here. I literally went from a young stud to a granddad, you know.

• 31:09Speaker 01

  I've done it all and it's kind of ridiculous, but and I can't believe it. I'm still here doing it occasionally, but I really have a lot of joy in doing it now because I can help the young kids and I can tell the stories and it's different, of course. But, you know, you can, you can, it's just great. I feel it's great to be involved in a collaborative, creative pursuits. And I think everyone who comes into that circle should be respected and should be given time and attention. You know, I think it's, I think, you know, we all, we all have a good time. Everyone's going to remember it and you remember those moments 20 years later. Someone will come up to me and say, oh, thank you. You gave me this advice and it really helped.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  And I can't remember it, but at the time, because you had a genuine connection, it meant something.

• 31:56Rich Roll?

  Do you think part of that is a reaction to the fact that you didn't have anybody like that when you were a young person?

• 32:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do.

• 32:01Rich Roll?

  You feel this obligation?

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do. I do. I do. And I think part of my success, dare I say, as a performer, was in a way probably to get a validation or get an approval, you know. And maybe that's why I was really searching for it a lot. And so I managed to take care of everybody. But yes, I think it definitely has something to do with it as well as wanting to have an extraordinary life.

• 32:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And now you have Mr. Feel Good as an outlet to express that curiosity, which I think is pretty cool and probably on some level also like looking for mentors or introducing an audience to people who can be mentors. Like I think about this podcast in a similar way. And in thinking about the lack of mentors that you had, I was reflecting on my own life, thinking, who were my mentors and realizing that? You know, I had a great dad, but it's often not the parent that you're looking to to be the mentor. And I had a bunch of really unhealthy people who were giving me not great advice as a young person, despite having a lot of opportunity. Like, I didn't have a really good mentor.

• 33:07Rich Roll?

  And I thought, maybe this podcast is like this latent desire to like, you know, continue to find those people that I didn't have when I was when I was younger.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:17Rich Roll?

  And Mr. Feelgood obviously feels similar in that regard.

• 33:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, mentor, it's just such a vital part for a healthy mental and physical life as well. And I didn't have a mentor, like you say, but I made a, I made a, I really remember consciously, especially after my father died, making all my best friends, and I had a wide circle of friends. I was really more so engaged with trying to find a sort of hybrid of what a man should be. So I got very close with all their fathers. And they were all amazing. You know, someone taught me about humor. Someone taught me about, you know, being professional, about dress, what you, how you presented yourself. Someone, you know, made me want to read.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  So I sort of picked out this, made this sort of imaginary, not perfect man, but a pretty good man to get to navigate life from that. And, uh, and that was extraordinary. But at the same time, there was a sort of, you know, there was a, I was dealing with this grief of losing a parent without any kind of support. And, and so that was, I didn't want to infringe on my friends' relationships with their dads as well, you know. And, uh, but the Mr. Feelgood is really a, yeah, it's a culmination born out of sort of not being able to travel anymore and knowing all these people and having all these adventures and really being interested in people. And in, you know, ways of thinking and of ways of living and making money and everything else.

• 34:47Speaker 01

  And, and it was really designed as a, the genesis of it was as a pushback to the toxicity that we all expect, we're collectively experiencing during the pandemic and the political division. But also just wanting to really put something out there that was positive, that was helpful, that unified people, that, and especially with men, you know, I grew up with all women, but I'm equally happy in a car or a room full of men. But I was always quite open in my environment as well, growing up, talking about things that mattered, feelings and, you know, it was kind of encouraged and I thought it was really important for men especially to communicate properly.

• 35:27Speaker 01

  And I don't care, you know, what your sexuality is, what your socioeconomic background is, your education, I just think that if we all sat around a campfire in the Mojave Desert under a beautiful sky, we're gonna have a beautiful experience together and we're gonna learn something. So with Mr. Feelgood, I continue to do it and enjoy it and thrive in it because I'm learning so much from the people. It's like you. It's like you, you get these people in front of you and you can actually talk to them and learn stuff and it's, and it's just so inspiring to me, but at the same time, it's so useful. And as a father of three kids, two boys and a girl, you know, it is, it takes a village, you know, it takes a village to raise your kids and I'm really aware of that and I'm really grateful for that as well, cause you know, they look at me like, dad, what you're doing, you know?

• 36:12Speaker 01

  Oh yeah, dad, you know? Ah, dad, you know, but then if I talk to a good friend of mine and he drops a little bit of advice, you see them open up and I'm so grateful.

• 36:21Rich Roll?

  It's funny how that works, right?

• 36:22Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 36:23Rich Roll?

  Like everything I do, my kids think is cringe worthy, you know, of course, right? It doesn't, it doesn't.

• 36:28Speaker 01

  Well, imagine being a male model.

• 36:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The level of shit that they must give you.

• 36:34Speaker 01

  Oh, man, yeah.

• 36:35Rich Roll?

  Must be epic, right?

• 36:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is, it is, but I think they, you know, they know when to stop, cause I'll get too sensitive and insecure and they'll like back off from dad, you know?

• 36:51Rich Roll?

  Mr. Feelgood is this pandemic baby, like you birthed this thing when we're all locked down and I'm sure you're, you know, trying to figure out how to exert your creative voice in a moment in which we can't travel and all of that. And I do think that there's something really necessary and urgent about speaking to the mental health of, of, of, of men. Like there is, despite, look, there's a lot of progress and things have changed quite a bit, but. There aren't quite the level of resources that are available for women in that regard. And I'm not sure there really is that sense of permissiveness that is required for men to engage in a vulnerable and real way with what we've sort of been taught our whole

• 37:35Rich Roll?

  lives to kind of repress, like that advice to, you know, look at your dad's tombstone and just push it down and move along, you know, like that is still probably the reigning paradigm when it comes to men and mental health. And if there's anything, you know, that I'm trying to speak to, it's, it's, it's kind of upending that paradigm. And that feels very much at the heart of what you're, you know, attempting to do as well.

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it's what you do. It's what I do. It's, you know, there's some great people out there doing it. And I think it's vital work for us all to sort of own every aspect of ourselves and try and deal with it. So, yeah, no, absolutely.

• 38:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. But you can't deliver that message in a clinical way. And I like how you've wrapped it in fashion and music with beautiful photography and storytelling and kind of this very specific interview style where you kind of ask the same questions to all of these guests. So you're delivering a certain kind of product that feels more like a glossy fashion magazine, but with a certain heart and intentionality about it that doesn't exist in that world.

• 38:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that was really born out of when Pete Samson, my co-founder of Mr. Feelgood, who's 20-year veteran Fleet Street journalist, you know, very smart. And I knew him because his wife worked with my wife creatively. And he, so we knew each other a little bit, but he came up to me just, he called me just before lockdown and said, can I have a word with you? I want to talk to you about something. I said, sure. I was interested. I met him for lunch. And he sort of had a rough idea of what Mr. Feelgood was. He'd sort of conceived it. And he liked my writing and Instagram or something like that because it was honest, I suppose. And there was something to it. But really, I remember it so clearly. I was shopping around this.

• 39:26Speaker 01

  This thing that I'd written and produced an art show and at the time, just before lockdown, that I'd been working on for a couple of years. But he, it was the way he spoke to me and the way he was vulnerable. He, you know, just stopped drinking and he was tired of doing the same old thing all the time, being this, you know, this sort of reporter that went around the world and little bit of sensationalism in there, you know, it's that sort of vibe. And he was so honest when he talked to me, when he sat opposite me. He was so open and he was vulnerable and he was not a guy. Usually I'd see him at airports and we'd, you know, smoking cigarettes, having a drink at the bar. And to see him in this position, it just really, it really spoke to me. And I said, well, let's develop it. Let's play. Let's see what we can

• 40:10Speaker 01

  do. I love the idea. And originally, he was just gonna sort of use me as a frontman, as I've been used all these times and I could come in and come out. And, you know, it was a sort of vanity project. But the more I thought about it and exchanged ideas with him, the more I realized that it was something of value and it could be something that could really help. And also, I could, you know, I could utilize my experience on every level in various careers or, you know, professions and the people, the relationships that I built, which really for me, you know, in the nineties, when I was in LA and I was, you know, really shooting everything, people used to talk about networking and I hated that phrase. I hated that word because it felt so

• 40:52Speaker 01

  insincere. It felt like it was sleazy and you're just going after something to get something. Yeah. And I just, you know, I didn't want to be, I don't know why, but I just felt it was a bit dirty and I wanted to have a proper conversation. I wanted to connect with people. And if I said I'd do something for someone, I would absolutely do it. And I would today. It's just, it doesn't, I don't second guess that at all. So, I don't know. I think, I think. I don't even know. Sorry, I've lost you. You've lost me.

• 41:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just the the idea of like, I think what you're getting at is you have decades of relationships that you've built organically with the best of intentions over many years. And now you have this

• 41:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 41:34Rich Roll?

  digital media project, you know, idea that you're trying to birth into the world. And you can tap into all of these people with whom you have tremendous goodwill because you've worked with them for many years. So you're able to like, get these incredible photographers and you have access to talent and studio space and all these sorts of things. Because it's sort of like, I look at it like, well, I've been doing this 10 years. And now we're in a place where we can have this studio and I can have people helping me and all this kind of stuff.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:01Rich Roll?

  But you come out of the gate and it's like, this is an expensive proposition. You know, like you're gonna, you want to work with like, top tier people and deliver at the highest level. Like, that doesn't happen cheaply.

• 42:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:12Rich Roll?

  And, you know, it's one thing to develop an audience over time where you can monetize it in a certain way and kind of square the budget. But you've bit off a lot and it's ambitious, right? So I'm interested in the business side of it and how you're making that work. I mean, I know you have brands now who are coming in, who are supporting you. And, and, and, you know, the legacy of your, your career has, you know, allowed people to step in and who believe in you and who are willing to support you.

• 42:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I'm really fortunate and also I'm married to someone within the industry. And, and, you know, we've forged genuine friendships and I hope respect. Certainly, I have respect for the people around me, you know, over, over three decades. And, and so, and also, we're at a period where, you know, photographers and teams want to work and they want to show their work without too much interference. And I choose those people or those people come to me and, you know, because I want them to to blossom as well. So I want to give them space and a sort of page to do what they want to do. And we're just, I'm really grateful for all the teams. I mean, you know, I, I didn't think it'd happen like this, but I kind of.

• 43:25Speaker 01

  Had confidence in in my relationships and once we'd done a couple of issues and you know, I opened with an interview with all the girls from the Freedom video, agreed it was the 30th anniversary and I sort of tentatively, you know, texted Christie Turlington and asked her if she would be interested and she was straight in and brought all the other girls and then spoke to Tatiana and they were so supportive, you know, and that was just like, okay.

• 43:47Rich Roll?

  That's a very tantalizing way to launch.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:49Rich Roll?

  You know, people are gonna be interested in reading about that.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was. It was the 30th anniversary of this iconic video. So as far as business goes, yeah, we're getting advertising, it's starting to come in, which is amazing. But we're also, you know, we're finding our way. We, you know, we decide, we still, we're trying to determine, and I say this, and I feel vulnerable saying it, but we're trying to determine where we are, what exactly we will be. I just know that we're a community that's building of great creatives, but everyone is welcome, having a great conversation and trying to learn and support one another and, you know, pull down prejudice and sort of have an open mind. I just wanna learn and I feel like all the people that are around

• 44:34Speaker 01

  us, working with us and for us, are sort of in that same vein, you know, and I mean, I get letters every week from really good photographers and creative people wanting to work with us.

• 44:44Rich Roll?

  Oh, cool.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  It's just a case of, you know, we're not a big operation right now, so we're doing every single job. And that's another thing that I, it was a learning curve for me. I had to, I mean, and you helped me so much in this and your conversations because I had to break through so many comfort zones, because I was the guy that was always helping everyone out and doing that. That's my natural, you know, personality, I think. But also, I suddenly had to work on a deadline. I had to be accountable. I had to rice every week, you know. I had to trust that I could walk onto a set, having been the model, the subject, and direct the set and make sure everyone did a great job and they kinda, you know, be the creative director on that. So use everything that I'd seen.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  First hand from the best professors in the cultural business and just trust that I could, you know, I could execute this and make the person feel good and relaxed and know that I'm after the truth of what they've got to say because that's what I value most. So, you know, it's a learning curve that continues to this day. I mean, it's, it's never ending.

• 45:46Rich Roll?

  Well, I think, I think, and I say this all the time, it's important, especially in the the kind of nascent stages of anything creative that's ongoing like this is remaining open and flexible and, and being in that space of letting it tell you what it wants to be, like not being rigid and saying, this is what we're doing. Like, okay, here's what we're doing now, but let's learn. Like, oh, maybe it would be cool if we move over here or we do this. And I've seen some evolution already with you. I think one of the things that we talked about early was originally, it was, it was, it was photographs and, and written material, but you've evolved into like, you put it out as a podcast and you have YouTube videos. Like you kind of have to be everywhere now. And I think we talked about how important video is, like you can't, there's no way around

• 46:30Rich Roll?

  it. Like you have to make that part of the thing. And that's an expensive proposition, you know, especially in the early, you know, phases of what you're trying to do.

• 46:39Speaker 01

  Yes, it is. And yes, you know, you can, you know, and obviously being, I kept a journal for 10 years, but apart from that, and I was a big reader, as I said. So I was intimidated by what I read. So that stopped me from writing so much, you know, so but going through this process of having to write and be accountable has been extraordinary. And yeah, I just, I, I, I don't know, we're just doing the best we can every, every day and, you know, slaying the dragons as they come. But I'm, I'm, I don't know whether I'm at that point where you are, where you just kind of go with it. I'm still like trying to keep all these plates spinning

• 47:24Speaker 01

  and have some degree of control, just because there's so much to do, you know, I do everything. So with, with, you know, with Pete, of course, and Alison as well, but.

• 47:35Speaker 01

  It's, I saw your thing the other day about 10 years, your 10 year anniversary. And I thought, wow, I'm just over two years in now of doing this 24/7 of working on this, you know, night and day, really. And I thought, oh my goodness, it's a long way to go. I've got a long way to go.

• 47:52Rich Roll?

  Well, you have to create some kind of sustainability measures for yourself. Because you can't, you can't transmit something you haven't got. And if part of the message or a big part of the message is self-care, mental health, et cetera, if you're on a track to burning out and you're not able to like exercise that yourself, then you can't transmit that message properly.

• 48:15Speaker 01

  God, the practice is what you preach.

• 48:16Rich Roll?

  And it's something I've, you know, I've run up against this myself. It becomes very difficult. Like, all this wellness is making me unwell, right? All this, all this talk about mental health is, is diseaseing my mind, right? Like, how do you strike that balance for yourself as an entrepreneur who's, you know, it's scrappy and you gotta like make it happen and it falls on your shoulders and all of that?

• 48:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, you, you, the way you put everything out just blows my mind, you know.

• 48:42Rich Roll?

  Well, I have tons of people helping me now.

• 48:44Speaker 01

  I know, but you know, you've.

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  It's evolved into.

• 48:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, and, and it's very, very impressive and effective. With us, it's literally, you know, I shoot it on iPhones for the most part and I send it to my nephew who's a film, you know, an actor and a film studio in London and he edits it with me or with us. And it's very scrappy, as you know, because I interviewed you. It was one iPhone then and I still haven't gotten around to edit that yet. But, but I understand the value. So yeah, so the value of, you know, I was writing these tomes to my interviews at the beginning. And, you know, Pete's sort of saying, John, 15,000 words is a bit too many. Let's bring it down to 1500 or 3000. And I was so protective

• 49:27Speaker 01

  because it was really important for me to get the essence of the human being. And Pete's a lot more, thank goodness, he's a great editor and he's pragmatic and he's factual and he's, you know, he's to the point. Whereas I'm really a bit more, I don't know, emotional and I want to really, I feel I need to connect with this human being and I, and I feel a great responsibility to the people that I interview as well as I'm sure you do. And so video is a way, I think it's just of the zeitgeist now, it's of the movement. People get their information that way. So we, we're, we're working on that now and improving that and, you know.

• 50:03Speaker 01

  It's just a question of time and being able to do everything and at the same time, bring up a family and, you know, and provide for yourself and just crack on, you know? So I'm learning as I go. I really am one foot in front of the other, trying to keep calm at many times, trying to learn how to look after myself within the chaos, which is challenging. You know, it really is challenging. So, but like you say, yeah, you've got to, you've got to be well to really with integrity, speak about wellness and hope to help other people, right?

• 50:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, for sure. And listen, you know, I say that as somebody who's constantly out of balance. Like it's not anything that I, that I have mastered by any stretch of the imagination. I just know from experience and being, you know, massively out of balance at times, you know, the pressures that that create and the level of, you know, dissonance that you feel as this person who has a sense of responsibility to the audience, you know, sort of like if you're out of balance, then how powerful is this message that you're putting out? Like it's going to fall flat, like on a spiritual energetic level, right? It's not integrated. It's not, you know, it's not in lockstep with who you are. So staying on top of that, I think is really important.

• 51:15Speaker 01

  And I think that goes back for, to what we were talking about in pictures, in stills and in videos. For me, I always knew that if you had a good time and you really engaged with somebody and you got lost and you weren't afraid to be a fool and to be daft and to, you know, my responsibility, especially as I got older, was I really wanted to take care of the people who were in the photograph with me. I wanted to make them comfortable, whether it's a girl or a kid or baby or whatever else, or another man, you know, you want to, and I think if you do that properly and you do that with genuine integrity, that transmits to the person who's looking at that picture and that's just the way it is.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  And so, you know, I always want to, no matter how tired I am, no matter how worn out I am, I want to be present, you know, I want to be, I want to be real.

• 52:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The, uh, we talked about, um, the other day when we got together, uh, I was asking you about. How you define success for yourself and and family really is at the center of all of this for you, right?

• 52:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 52:21Rich Roll?

  And Mr. Feelgood is kind of a way of honoring that on some level tangentially, like what's important to you in the work that you do and how you live your life.

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really, it was, it was crystal clear to me at an early age that I wanted to be present for my kids as a father. I wanted to really experience the full gamut of what being a father was.

• 52:46Rich Roll?

  That's not very rock and roll, John.

• 52:47Speaker 01

  I know it isn't, I know it isn't, I know it isn't, but it isn't, no, it isn't. But it really, I think, I think I was probably so damaged from it or not really.

• 52:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the trauma of losing your dad at a young age.

• 52:58Speaker 01

  I think that was it and I, and I, I just really felt that if I didn't, no, and I was really on a, you know, a high with my life and my work and my career at this point. But I just thought if I didn't have a family, especially with my wife, you know, and have children and really put my time and energy into that, it sounds so sanctimonious. I don't mean to be sancti, it sounds so, but it was really clear to me that that was important to me. I wanted to create what I didn't have. I chose a partner who was, came from the contrasting background who had that. And it was really important that I live and my kids live in as much as a drama free zone as possible where we could just, you know, breathe and go after what we want and have

• 53:43Speaker 01

  a good life. So that was really clear to me and that kept me, that kind of kept me grounded, I think.

• 53:48Rich Roll?

  But how did you do that in the context of a career where you have to go away and come back? It's not a nine to five thing where you drive down the street to an office and come home at dinnertime every day.

• 54:00Speaker 01

  I think, I think it helped in a way. I think because my wife traveled as well and worked for magazines for Vogue and for Harper's Bazaar for years and still does and not for them, but for other, other mags. I think it sort of enriched the relationship ending. I go away and I have friends all over the world. I have these rich, creative sort of experiences and I got to breathe and explore. And I came back and that was my story to tell. You know, that was my way of then giving everything when I was at home and everything when I was away.

• 54:31Rich Roll?

  And being this like citizen of the world.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it was really, you know, it was good. And I think it was inspiring for my kids as well to an extent. Well, they grew up seeing this dad who was traveling here. But Ali, my wife, used to go away two months of a year to do the collections and go New York, Paris, Milan, et cetera. And I would try and stay at home. And we had help at that time, but I was really conscious of being there. And, you know, I really wanted to be a great dad. I don't know. I'm sure my kids would say I am.

• 54:59Rich Roll?

  What are the ages now? You have one, you have a son at NYU, right?

• 55:02Speaker 01

  No, he's back. He graduated. He was at NYU Clive Davis School of Music. That's Cooper. He's 26. Elliot's 23. And Marley is in New York. She's the only one away and she's 19. So, you know, and, you know, they're incredible kids. They really are. They're incredible people. They're better than what I could have expected. You know, I think it's down to my misses more than me. I think I'm the crazy one. But they're amazing people. They're my, they're the best people I know. They're extraordinary people. Don't get me started because you know, I'll get my hankies out.

• 55:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, and so from a dad perspective, like, what do you think you did right?

• 55:45Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know. What didn't I do wrong?

• 55:50Speaker 01

  I think, I really don't know. That's such a big question. I think the way you treat your partner, they pick up on that. The way you treat other people, they pick up on that. I think the way you deal with stress, which at times, especially when I, we came back to America.

• 56:10Speaker 01

  You know, it's quite difficult for a little while. Um, they pick up on that and I think you just, I think you really, and again, I think it's really important to learn to listen. And to, you know, especially now, especially when we're on phones all our, you know, all day long and there's so many distractions. I think it's really important to sit down at a dinner table and listen and have them with other grownups when they were little. And, you know, our house was the house that all the kids' friends came to, sat around our table and they all felt very, you know, free and able to speak, um, you know, talk about anything they wanted to talk about. Cause I had a friend when I was eight years old who invited me to his house and his family sort of took me in.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  And they, you know, allowed me to do that. And that was subconsciously, that became our home. So I don't know what it is. I think it's partly who they are anyway, what they're born with. And it's not perfect by any means, but it's just a work in progress and, and ultimately, ultimately it's about love, you know, it's about being there for somebody. I mean, my, it, it, it's, it's just being there and knowing when to step back and let them be them and let them express themselves and let them, you know, confide in you or not confide in you, giving them that space and respect, you know, that's kind of what it feels like we do.

• 57:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. On, on, on some level, modeling, quote unquote, a healthy masculinity, right? And, and masculinity being kind of, you know, it's interesting, like I, I want to dive into this idea of masculinity because what you do for a living and what you get paid to do is a version of modeling a type of masculinity that like spills out into popular culture. And then Mr. Feelgood is a way of modeling like a, you know, and that's a voiceless thing. The is like, there's no, you don't have a voice in that. You have a, you have an image, you know, it's true, right?

• 58:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's true. Yeah.

• 58:07Rich Roll?

  So, so Mr. Feelgood is almost like the antidote to that. I, I want to express myself and here's how I think about masculinity in a healthy way in the context of a culture in which there's too much toxic masculinity. Like, how do you think about that issue and how you kind of shoulder the responsibility for being an example of, you know, a healthy male in a world in which you think a lot about mentors and the kind of message that you're putting out into the world?

• 58:39Speaker 01

  I think it's, you know, also with the work I do and did for so long, you know, it's, I didn't have a voice, but I did have a voice in a way between the clicks of the camera. I never, I rarely felt insecure because I wouldn't allow myself to feel insecure because I knew I was the center of attention and perhaps I clothed that in a way that made me who I was on set and made me want to get the approval to some degree and make everyone feel good. It's, you know, it's funny, I've just shot these five gentlemen for Mr. Feelgood and they're from all different walks of life and it's incredibly incredible how some of

• 59:20Speaker 01

  them are very awkward in front of the camera and I understand that, but, and they all say, wow, it's really hard work. I didn't realize how, how, how hard the work was and it doesn't seem like it is from the outside, but when you're sort of firing on 12 cylinders and you really want to be present, it, it, it's, it's, it's proper graft, it's proper work. They all confirmed that this last week, which is interesting. So, but yes, I mean, Mr. Feelgood really was a vehicle for me to use what I've learned and express and learn more about having a voice and having a purpose and doing something which has, you know,

• 1:00:01Speaker 01

  foundations that hopefully will spill out and support other people who are feeling lost, especially men, you know. It's, we try and make it that it's not too woo woo. We want it to be pragmatic. We want to, I mean, at the moment, we're gratefully, you know, interviewing the fantastic actors, but I'm really want to, you know, I'm really interested in talking to people who aren't famous. I just, everyone's got a story and I just think it's really important to have a conversation that-

• 1:00:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, you have an eclectic mix of people. Like you had Scott Galloway on, who obviously, you know, cares a lot about these issues with respect to young males and what's happening. And even, you know, the architect who built

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, Niccolo.

• 1:00:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, what is that BB, like that architecture you built like?

• 1:00:47Speaker 01

  Binny shells, yeah.

• 1:00:48Rich Roll?

  Right, Robert Downey Jr. And it's a, it's a sustainable building material.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  Amazing.

• 1:00:54Rich Roll?

  Very cool.

• 1:00:54Speaker 01

  Amazing, amazing men, amazing. Yeah, and they, you know, so, so I'm trying to get broader in that and I want more wellness.

• 1:01:01Rich Roll?

  How do you like make that selection or curate that?

• 1:01:04Speaker 01

  DMing people?

• 1:01:05Rich Roll?

  Something I think about as well, like when you're thinking like, who can I get or who should I get? Like, I just know in the evolution of this show, it went from me begging, borrowing and stealing just to convince anybody to sit down with me to now thinking more about like who's, it's not like who, who wants to do it or who I can get. It's like who's the right person.

• 1:01:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, of course. Yeah. Well, for me, I mean, it's, you know, the beginning, it was just who I knew. And then it was people that I really had my eyes on and admired, like Scott, like you. And just, you know, it is a case of actually finding a way and I'm relentless when it comes to that. I'm very good at writing letters. I've got, I could have a whole book on the love letters I've sent to people and I mean it. I mean, I really do. I want to sit down and talk to these people. And I think if you're persistent, and I am, and if you, if you think they'll add value to the, the sort of, the big picture, then, you know, I'll, I'll, I'll just DM them. I'll find a friend who knows them. I'll find out who their agent is, you know?

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Oh, there's some great people out there that I'm desperate to talk to, you know, that I really want to talk to. So you just find a way. If you've, you know, if you've got the will, you find the way. So I think going back to the sort of masculinity thing, I think that's something that today I'm still trying to work with and I'm trying to find, you know, you can't be all things to all people, but I'm trying to find ways that I can expose or not expose, I can celebrate, I like to say, that help me and that thus help the audience at Mr. Feelgood. So I'm really looking to have those conversations and to learn. I want to learn, you know, and my mom's 88. She's relentlessly curious. So she really is, you know, and, and I've inherited that.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  And I just, there's, there's so much out there and, and there's so much I don't know. I really don't know. And I'm trying to figure out the best way to live with the most amount of peace, of love and a growing kind of satisfaction that we're actually doing something of value. Does that make sense?

• 1:03:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 1:03:17Rich Roll?

  You know, look, we're of a certain age. We're Gen X guys, right?

• 1:03:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, we are.

• 1:03:24Rich Roll?

  Right? That's fucking cool.

• 1:03:26Speaker 01

  It is cool. Yeah, man.

• 1:03:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  For sure it is now.

• 1:03:29Rich Roll?

  It's very, it's very not Gen X to be, you know, kind of vulnerable and wear your emotions on your sleeve, which is, you know, kind of what I do. Like, you know, to be Gen X is to be disaffected and to be ironic.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:42Rich Roll?

  And all of that.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Which we can be.

• 1:03:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Right? We can turn that on.

• 1:03:46Rich Roll?

  We're grown up Gen X.

• 1:03:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:47Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:03:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:48Rich Roll?

  But reflecting on, you know, the generations that are, that are coming up underneath us, I think the idea, like, young, young men, like, it is a more confusing time. Like, we grew up in an analog world.

• 1:04:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:01Rich Roll?

  Right? And that we've, we're one of the last generations of people to kind of traverse from analog to digital.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:08Rich Roll?

  But our formative years were pre-computer. Completely, right? And now, I think we're in a confusing state for a lot of men, where there's expectations for them to, you know, be strong, be the provide, like, to, to kind of, like, inhabit the traditional sense of what it is to be masculine. And yet also to be the sensitive person, the person who goes to all the, you know, school events, you know, on the, on weekdays at 2 o'clock in the afternoon or, and who, you know, is caring and like, like, somebody who has to fire on all cylinders.

• 1:04:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:48Rich Roll?

  Right? And there's an expectation level that I think is difficult for, you know, anybody to live up to, essentially. And when you kind of step down into even the younger generations, who are dealing with, you know, how to date, and that's all digital now with these apps and all that kind of stuff. And, you know, this is something Scott Galloway talks quite a bit about, like, I think it's really hard, right? And, and you know, we're, we're at a certain age where we don't have direct experience with those sorts of things. So how do you think about, you know, lending a hand or being a mentor or communicating helpful information to that person who is trying to navigate, you know, those, all of those landmines?

• 1:05:29Speaker 01

  It's tough. It's tough. I think, I think our sons have to, and their tribes have to learn to be vulnerable and be connected as a community and to not have too many expectations because there are a lot of expectations on them. It is a different world. I think it's very difficult. I think, I think they're also very smart, a lot of them, and they can figure it out. And things that I worry about for them, they aren't even worrying about because they're, if they're focused, if they, if they're fortunate enough to have something they love to do,

• 1:06:10Speaker 01

  have a purpose or a goal, or be passionate about something, I think that helps them a lot to direct their focus and to move forward in the, as they go into life as a young adult.

• 1:06:20Rich Roll?

  But you can't manufacture that for anybody.

• 1:06:22Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:06:23Rich Roll?

  Especially your kids.

• 1:06:24Speaker 01

  No, unfortunately.

• 1:06:25Rich Roll?

  You can expose them to lots of different things and just hope that something connects with them and lights them up in that way.

• 1:06:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's true. I mean, it's a, it's a work in progress, you know, and it's, it's, I think all we try and do is be open, but provide a safe space where they can explore those kind of feelings and worries and advise them on what we know and what we've experienced in an ever-changing world where they can then sort of bespoke it if they're able. And all my kids personally, our kids are, you know, they're pretty, the greatest, really one of the greatest things of my life is that my kids know who they are. And I think that's, you know, a lot more than I did at that age. The, I think the French say bien dans sa peau, comfortable in their own skin.

• 1:07:12Rich Roll?

  That's, that's like, you're on the, you're on the 10 yard line if you have that.

• 1:07:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. And I'm really, I, I stand back and I watch them and I observe them in company and the way they. Sort of address the issues of the day, their own personal challenges. And I feel really just so grateful that they've got that. And I think it probably comes from my wife's family's side. But I think that's a marvelous thing. That's a real blessing. I think it's tough out there. I really think it's tough out there. And I by no means have an answer for you that's eloquent or rooted for you yet, in all honesty. But I also want to engage in as we grow younger people into Mr. Feelgood. I want to bring them into their sort of fold and have them write for me. And a couple of them do already. And just sort

• 1:08:02Speaker 01

  of the idea of having, sitting around a table with these kids, you know, 12 men. I want you to do this with me at some point, but 12 really interesting men who can sit around and we can talk and we can listen. And I think community, when you build community, and especially of men, I think that's a really powerful thing. I think to sit and to be listened and to be heard is a really powerful thing. And especially in a circle of men who are trying to do the right thing, who are trying to calibrate this ever changing sort of world. I think that's really vital. But I certainly don't have the answers, but I'm I'm determined to try and help and contribute in some way.

• 1:08:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, vital is the right word. I mean, I've been lucky enough to be parts of groups like that, you know, through recovery and also through other therapeutic modalities. And it's been absolutely transformative for me. But I'm also aware that it's not the experience of most people, most men, right? And I think a lot of men suffer in silence. And they just carry on and push it all down until something one day, you know, breaks or explodes. And I think that's the more typical experience. And to the extent that, you know, there are solutions for people who are in that state, like I want

• 1:09:25Rich Roll?

  to be participating in that. Because, you know, I think it's chronic, honestly. And there is an epidemic of mental health disorders that, you know, it's not unique to men, but I think there is something about men where it's not talked about to the extent that it should be. And getting help. Is not as permissive as it should be.

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  And it should be, and we should all, you know, we should take time to reach out to our community and put the effort and the energy into building these sort of, creating these situations where we can all exchange, where, you know, we can sort of feel safe to talk about. I mean, the whole vulnerable thing, that's a really sort of mysterious one for me. I know it's important and I know it's valuable and I never really recognized my own acute vulnerability until I started doing Mr. Feelgood. I had episodes, but consistently being accountable and having to do this after having had an agent who just said, this is the flight, this is how much, there you are, you know. And I, and I, I, I still, I'm still

• 1:10:33Speaker 01

  really curious about the whole vulnerable thing and, you know, when to be restrained, when to be open, what value will that give the person I'm sitting with, you know. And I still, my Yorkshire roots are like, no, man up, man up, you know, don't talk, don't be soft, you know, and all that stuff, but you, you won't survive, you won't survive. You'll, you'll be a, you know, you'll, you'll self-medicate, you'll drink, you'll, whatever your drug of choice is, or you'll just implode.

• 1:11:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  And you'll freak out and you'll do something stupid. And I, I think we have to change that. Maybe it's in education, you know, maybe it's having people like you and Scott, myself perhaps, you know, going in and talking about this, actually delivering lessons on this sort of thing, you know, actually going into the education system. And I do think, you know, doing retreats with fellas, with men is really good, young guys and, and older guys. And I think there's a lot to be said for taking sage advice from those who came before us, you know, even though they lived in a, in a, in a more closed off sort of, or a more one dimensional idea of masculinity. I, I was brought up to respect my elders.

• 1:11:45Speaker 01

  And I was lucky because when my parents divorced, I'd go and see my father and he'd always do meals on wheels and he'd take me around delivering food to the elderly. And most of these guys had just come out and ladies had come out of the Second World War. They were the last. And it was fascinating to engage with their sort of stoicism and their dignity.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  And I think, you know, I learnt a lot about listening to people then. And, and I think, I think we have to do something about it. I think we have to engage. I think we have to sort of join forces and, you know, create something that really does. Cause the important thing is, a lot of people sort of start doing these things, but it's the, it's, it's being there for the long ride, which is important. And especially in this day and age, when everything's so disjointed and quick and we're overcome with sort of information. I think to be consistent is really a great quality to have. And I think, you know, if you're, if you're mentoring someone, you're in it for life.

• 1:12:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:12:45Speaker 01

  You know, you should be and you'll reap benefits, you know, but, but really it's, you, you, you can't just do it for a day. You can't give a bit of advice and think it's done. You have to be consistent.

• 1:12:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And, you know, set against a culture in which everything is ephemeral, like everything disappears, like, you know, tissue paper on fire from one day to the next.

• 1:13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:05Rich Roll?

  The idea of consistently showing up and that accountability piece, I think is super important. And listen, you touched on listening. I mean, I think that is at the key cornerstone of everything. I think we've lost our, our appreciation for listening. And I think we're seeing that in the, the denigration of the national conversation and our inability to kind of, you know, sit with people who, who see the world differently from us as our information silos continue to separate increasingly. And it's a confusing time, right? And, and to the extent that being vulnerable is somehow curative, it's also important to, you know, check your motivations behind that, that vulnerability.

• 1:13:48Rich Roll?

  Because there is something called performative vulnerability that we're seeing on social media. And I don't think that that is helpful either. It's sort of like, what is helpful to, to somebody else in, in how I communicate from a place of honesty and integrity versus, let me tell you some crazy story that is horrific and embarrassing for the purpose of, of just, you know, shock value or, you know, creating attention around yourself.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think. I think it's a day by day, moment by moment, challenge to be present. You know, to be really present with somebody, to listen to somebody, to um social media, man, I mean, it's, it's a tough one. It's a tough one and it's, it's great in many ways, but you know, being a father of a daughter, you know, my boys aren't really, they're not at all involved, but my daughter's young and she's brilliant and you know, to see what they go through, really, when they engage with it, it's, it's, it's tough, you know, so I just think ultimately we've got to

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  keep being present and available and, and, and listening to people and trust that will find the seeds of something that will help all of us benefit, because I think all of us, whatever age we are, it's tiresome. It's exhausting and I think we've just got to, part of our lives have to be grounded, part of our lives have to be for us to survive, for us to thrive, part of our lives just have to be connected and on a really, you know, um, authentic level of, of, you know, the only thing I know is love. You know, that's the thing that always comes back to me. The only thing I know is

• 1:15:36Speaker 01

  really the love I have for my family, for my friends, for nature, for music, for people who I admire, and that's sort of the one certainty for me and I really don't have the answers, but I try and go into the day, every day I really do with, with that in mind, knowing that I'll get through, knowing that I'll find a way, having hope with that, which a lot of kids struggle with, of course. And when I do that, when I overcome my fears or my doubts or my overthinking or everything else, I mean, it always works. It always seems to give me a, energizes me in a way that I, that makes me feel good.

• 1:16:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:11Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:16:12Rich Roll?

  Mr. Feelgood.

• 1:16:12Speaker 01

  Mr. Feelgood, baby. I don't know, I don't know, it's, it's kind of just come out of it, really.

• 1:16:19Rich Roll?

  You're a spiritual seeker though, too, right? Like, I know that you're super curious about all different forms of, of Spiritual wisdom. Weren't you, weren't you doing a project with Sadhguru or a documentary or something like that?

• 1:16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, well, I did. I did a retreat with Sadhguru and, you know, I was into yoga. I mean, it started very early when I was literally 12 years old. At the school in England, they gave you a Gideon Bible. And at the back of the Gideon Bible, there was a calendar scheduled to read a verse or 10 verses every night. And in a year, you'd read the whole thing. And I read it every single, religiously, no pun intended, every single night. And I was really interested in that. And then we moved into a different house. And my next door neighbors, there were three boys and a single mom, and they were Jehovah's Witnesses. So I took on being a Jehovah's Witness at the age of 12 or 13, and went door to door, knocking on the doors.

• 1:17:13Rich Roll?

  You did? You were one of those kids?

• 1:17:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, I was. Yeah, I was. And it was, it was, it was, my sister got into a car accident and needed a blood transfusion. And that kind of, that kind of turned me away. Plus, I got to 14 and 15. I like girls, you know? And I was like, okay, this is a bit too, you know, too restricting for me. But I was naturally a seeker, and I am to this day. And, and, and so, you know, I, I did various things. I read many, many books on various religions, and Carl Jung, and Buddhism, and Zen, and, you know, Hinduism, everything. I was just really like a sponge, wanted to take it in. With Sadhguru, it was just really extraordinary

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  because a friend of mine practiced with him regularly. And she invited me to see him speak. And actually, when I saw him speak, I wasn't, didn't, didn't fix me, you know? It didn't, it was, it was a certain set of people. And I thought it was, it wasn't...

• 1:18:15Rich Roll?

  All the artifice around the, I've sat at the feet of many, I don't, not with Sadhguru, but lots of other people from that kind of world and universe. And there is something about all the... You know, energy around that person, that's difficult to kind of get past.

• 1:18:32Speaker 01

  It was.

• 1:18:33Rich Roll?

  And engage like, is this real?

• 1:18:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:35Rich Roll?

  Is this wisdom legitimate?

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:37Rich Roll?

  Is this an artifice? Like, what is actually going on here?

• 1:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was really interesting. I mean, doing the yoga for, I think we were doing it, you know, four o'clock in the morning, getting up and doing it. I'm not very flexible, you know? My mom, eighty-eight, can touch her toes after having both her hips done, a week after having her hips. And I did hot yoga for four years. I still can't touch my toes, you know? And that aspect of it was challenging, but also, you know, just trying to figure out what was going on. And everything that you say, it was the same thing. It was, it was interesting. And then I, I was really obsessed because I really wanted to talk to him and I wanted to know more. So I reached out to someone at OWN and we were preparing to, you know, I was trying to-

• 1:19:17Rich Roll?

  Oh, you mean Oprah's Network?

• 1:19:19Speaker 01

  Oprah's thing, yeah. We were preparing to actually go and sort of, you know, get in there and have me find out about this and discover this and, you know, ask him questions. Tough questions, I think. And then I think discovery came and bought it out and it all fell to pieces. And that was that. But, but, you know, my time with him, and I want to interview him. That's on the cards, um, was extraordinary in many ways, you know? So you, you, you, you learn from every experience, or I try and learn from every experience that I have and everyone who's sat in front of me. And, you know, there's no, there's no way.

• 1:19:59Speaker 01

  There's no one way. There's, it's, it's a culmination of everything that you absorb and the environment around you. And just trying to focus on the best of that to help propel you through another day, you know? Or help you feel more equipped to help those around you. Does that make sense?

• 1:20:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, I'm curious about what that looks like for you now. Like, how does that translate into a daily practice?

• 1:20:25Speaker 01

  Hmm. You know what, I'm-

• 1:20:27Rich Roll?

  Or it doesn't.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  It does and it doesn't. And I'm, I'm, you know, I mean, you said earlier about when you feel challenged. You know, I'm presuming, tell me, correct me if I'm wrong, that you get on your bike or you go for a swim or you go for a run and that's when you feel- You know, I used to do it sort of on my motorbike, but it's not working at the moment. You know, I did TM for two years religiously, twice a day, and that was really, that started to get really good, but then I dropped it.

• 1:20:52Rich Roll?

  You did, you got the mantra and the whole thing?

• 1:20:54Speaker 01

  Well, I got the man- mantra, I did that and then-

• 1:20:57Rich Roll?

  When did you, where did you, who did you do the training with?

• 1:20:59Speaker 01

  Um, I did it in Santa Monica.

• 1:21:01Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:21:02Speaker 01

  No, no, I didn't.

• 1:21:03Rich Roll?

  With Bob Roth?

• 1:21:04Speaker 01

  No, no, no, no, no. No, I did it with this one gentleman. It was actually, sorry, it wasn't Santa Monica, it was, it was Beverly Hills. And I was really determined to make this a part of my life, and I'm a massive David Lynch fan.

• 1:21:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  And at times it was wonderful because my boys just naturally came and started to do it with me. And that was a really beautiful thing to have in our house, to sit there for 20 minutes in silence. And that really opened their eyes to that sort of practice and those sort of, uh, um, learning those modalities to help them improve their sort of well-being. And then I dropped out and then I forgot my mantra. And I was like, what is it?

• 1:21:39Rich Roll?

  You forgot it?

• 1:21:39Speaker 01

  It was some kind of about a year and a half. I was very busy, man. I was everywhere, but it was, it was an hour and a half, it was sort of-

• 1:21:46Rich Roll?

  Is there some sort of policy, like when you forget your password, you can retrieve it? They have it locked down somewhere?

• 1:21:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, no, so that's what, you know, so I sort of year passed and I thought, I've got to get back into this because I've got to carve myself some personal space every day because otherwise I'm a headless chicken, you know?

• 1:22:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:03Speaker 01

  And so, and I think it was a Sanskrit word, the original one, and you're not allowed to say which one it was, obviously. And so I went back to TM, I contacted them and I said, could I, could you give me another mantra? They said, oh, you have to find the original guy who initiated you. So I found this, the guy, eventually he'd moved out of LA, he'd gone down south and, and I drove there, you know, sort of Long Beach way, and I went that way. And we went in and he sort of renewed and we went through the whole thing again. And then he gave me a mantra. And it wasn't Sanskrit at all. It was really rudimentary. It was like a, you know, I'm not going to say, but it was, there is a basic thing. And it, and that made me realize that within that practice, it's really, the word is just there to bring you back.

• 1:22:47Speaker 01

  It's just a grounder. It's not got any-

• 1:22:50Rich Roll?

  Magical powers.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  Magical properties. It's just a grounder and that just, just works with the sort of neurochemistry of your, of the way your brain works and fires. So, but again, you know, it's, I carried for a while and, and then practiced for a while and then life took over me. And so now I'm trying to- You know, I'm ready to sort of get on that thing again, you know, get on that. I want to. I mean, now, literally, I get up at five in the morning and I go and sit outside and I have an hour of quiet on my own and I write and or I just, I'm just grateful. I just try and be grateful for my family, for a roof over my head, for food, for my children, for my friends.

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  And, you know, but I'd really, I need to, I do, I do feel a longing to sort of have something that can be with me consistently forever, you know, that sort of magic practice, or not magic practice, but again, it's, it's it's owning the fact that you should look after yourself. You should look after yourself. You've got, I mean, even in the shower, I'm like, you know, I'm fifty seven years old. Man, I've been lucky and my body's, you know, I'm no, you know, male model with a six pack, but, but I'm, but I'm, you know, but

• 1:24:12Rich Roll?

  Only the most successful male model of all time.

• 1:24:14Speaker 01

  But, you know, but I'm, I look at my body and it's a vehicle and a vessel and I think, aren't we lucky to be in this car, this vehicle for all these years? And it's really worked pretty well for me, given, you know, the amount of sort of hammering it's taken. I don't mean sort of through drink and all the rest of it. I'm talking about, you know, just different plane, time zones, just the, the amount of energy that we put out into the world every day and the things we deal with and the plates were spinning and the sort of forward motion, the momentum of life. I'm really amazed that, you know, and I'm really grateful, touch wood, that I'm in, you know, good health.

• 1:24:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think gratitude seems to come easy for you. That is a natural disposition for you. That it's, it's far more elusive for me.

• 1:25:04Speaker 01

  Hmm. Is it really?

• 1:25:05Rich Roll?

  It is. Like, I could use a gratitude accountability partner in the way that perhaps you could use a meditation accountability partner. And I really believe, I believe, like, I'm happy to be that person for you.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:25:19Rich Roll?

  Gratitude is not something I connect with naturally. It requires a lot of intentionality and effort on my part to really Feel that in myself, but I am very aware of trying to bring, trying to create integrity between how I'm living my life and, and how I'm expressing myself publicly in the work that I do. And I really think that for you, and this is a reminder to myself as well, that the greater alignment that you can create between those two things, like if you can really like dial up the meditation and the self-care piece and all of that, it does translate into the like, the success and the extent to which Mr. Feel Good will connect in a meaningful

• 1:26:03Rich Roll?

  way with an audience is directly calibrated to, you know, how much you are living those principles in your own life.

• 1:26:10Speaker 01

  For sure.

• 1:26:11Rich Roll?

  Right? And this is something that's hard, right? Especially when you're up against it and you had shared like you were up late last night trying to get this thing completed and out and all of that, like I relate to all of that. But, but, um, and, and we get, we get like calcified or wed to like this, it has to be done like this. And I'm the only one who knows how to do it. And if I have to stay up all night and whatever.

• 1:26:32Speaker 01

  Macro managing, yeah.

• 1:26:33Rich Roll?

  But like the, the, the magic is in the letting go and in the empowering of other people and, and in the, um, like kind of the, like prioritizing your, your, your self-care over like those little details that actually don't matter.

• 1:26:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:49Rich Roll?

  You know, that's a, that's a, it's tough.

• 1:26:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:51Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 1:26:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. I can't, you see for me, I'm so grateful for you. I really am. I'm so grateful for what you do in this world and the way you do it. And it, you know, I, I, you've been an enormous sort of pioneer and leader in what you do because you're so authentic. And it surprises me that you're, you're, you're challenged by that because I feel like you're, you know.

• 1:27:18Rich Roll?

  But when you say that, I like, I get very defensive.

• 1:27:21Speaker 01

  No, I feel it. Yeah, I saw your body twitch.

• 1:27:23Rich Roll?

  Comfortable for me to hear that.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  I know, but what, after what you've gone through and what you've done with your life, I feel that you should be.

• 1:27:29Rich Roll?

  Very uncomfortable, be uncomfortable being held out to, to being any kind of like ideal or, you know, paragon of any of these notions.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  I hear that. I get that.

• 1:27:40Rich Roll?

  A messy work in progress.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I'm in your club, baby. I'm the same. I'm just trying to figure it out. I'm trying to learn. I'm trying to balance. I'm trying to walk the walk, you know?

• 1:27:52Speaker 01

  I think it's really important to look after yourself and I'm most of the time I'm running and doing other things, you know, and I'm not, I'm not prioritizing, I'm trying to work out that discipline and to, to really accept it as something that I can only be of, of genuine value if I live these principles, if I practice them and, and forgive myself when I don't, you know, when I fall, fall off, that's a massive thing, that's like vulnerability, it's self-love, self-forgiveness, I mean self-love, saying that, you know, it still there's an echo there, a shadow of, you know, self-love, you know, it's all about, you know, don't be so selfish, or don't be so stupid, don't talk about yourself lad,

• 1:28:34Speaker 01

  come on, crack on. And so I, I think it's, you know, we've just got to, I just keep going and, and I want to get to a place where there's a little more control, but at the same time, I, I understand that there's so little control, really, you can only just do the best you can do.

• 1:28:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So how do you balance the ambitions that you have for yourself creatively, professionally, with Mr. Feelgood versus like being really grateful in the present moment and, and freeing yourself or unshackling yourself from a desire or, you know, a, a sense that it needs to be any different than it already is?

• 1:29:13Speaker 01

  Poor, that's a big one.

• 1:29:15Rich Roll?

  Cause like your life's pretty good.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:19Rich Roll?

  As is mine.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, it's good, but there's always room for growth and you've got to make an effort, you know, you've got to, you've, we've got to also, I think what we also have to do is have a bit more laughter, you know, in, in life. I think we have to get lost a bit as well, but within the joy that's healthy and that's, you know, and I think that comes with being with people as well. I mean, I've got so many people I see who are so stressed, friends and people, acquaintances and everyone needs to just really relax a bit and have some fun and have a giggle, you know, I mean, giggle therapy, we should do giggle therapy with some stand-up guys, you know, and, and, and we've, we've got to, I've got to be, I've got to learn to.

• 1:30:05Speaker 01

  Let go more and allow for things to happen. And that is, sometimes it's easy and sometimes it's not. But when I do it, generally, it's just energizing and it's brilliant. And you feel good the other day, the next day, you know, you feel good about what you do. So it's a work in progress, a messy work in progress. And there's no, I've got no formula. At the moment, we're a startup, we're grafting, we're moving. Sometimes I, you know, I question it, but I push through it because also I've got two other people that are working with this, me, and then this, you know, we're an outlet for a lot of people in different countries now. And I think that's, you know, you've got to stay in the game and you've got to try and

• 1:30:47Speaker 01

  evolve in a way that becomes lean and more and more authentic and more and more of value. And I mean, real value. I don't mean dollars and cents. I'm talking about the real value of the stuff that we all connect with and we're all looking for and we all need. So that's, that's what I'm doing. I've got no, I wish I had better answers for you, but I'm, it's really, it's just really, you know, it's really a, I don't even want to say we're up against it because I don't want to, I don't want to, I don't want to sort of put it in that, that label on it. But, but because we're not, because we're here and we're lucky and we should be grateful because we've, you know, we're not in the trenches. We're, we're not

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  in the trenches. We're out here, living the best life we can, pursuing a dream and an ambition and an intention. And I think we're, we should be really grateful just for that and for fresh air and, you know, for the ocean and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, I'm a work in progress. I'm trying to do the best I can. I'm trying to, if, if something tells me in my gut that it's right, then I, I follow it, you know, and whether it's a conversation or, you know, an action or I just really trust that. And

• 1:31:59Rich Roll?

  Have you always trusted that? Or have you learned to trust it?

• 1:32:02Speaker 01

  I think

• 1:32:02Rich Roll?

  And how do you know when to trust it?

• 1:32:04Speaker 01

  Hmm, that's a good one.

• 1:32:06Rich Roll?

  My gut has been unreliable in the past. And the way I've thought about it is that the trustworthiness of that gut instinct has a lot to do with, it's back to that integrity thing, like how much Is the way in which I'm living, matching up with the values that I aspire to inhabit. You know, if I'm out of balance with that, then my instincts are probably going to lead me towards a bad decision versus a good one.

• 1:32:34Speaker 01

  Wow, wow, you're so self-aware, man. You're evolved.

• 1:32:36Rich Roll?

  Only, only through making bad decisions and being in pain, I assure you.

• 1:32:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, but that's just to be aware of that and to have the support of your mentors. You know, I mean, I wish, I would love to have mentors. I would love to be in that group of, of people that, that allow for every aspect of my character.

• 1:32:56Rich Roll?

  You can, you can. All you have to do is, you know, drink yourself into oblivion and destroy your life first and then you will be welcome in.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  I guess. Well, I don't drink anymore. That's been over two years now and that's helped in a, in a way.

• 1:33:10Rich Roll?

  Tell me about that.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Well, I just, I just, you know, no one drinks in our house and my kids don't drink and my wife doesn't drink. I mean, she's probably had five gin and tonics in all the years I've known her. And I wasn't a big drinker, but I, I, I could drink, you know, and it's part of the culture I grew up in. And then when we went into lockdown, I found myself drinking a bottle of wine on my own every night. And apart from the fact that it made me snore, and that was kind of pretty obnoxious, I think, for my wife. I just thought, I'll stop, you know, I'll give it a couple of days. So, and I think also, in all honesty, I think I was grumpy and I think I was probably insensitive when I drank and I wasn't as jolly

• 1:33:54Speaker 01

  and life and soul as a party of perhaps I thought I was. And I realized it wasn't fair, especially when you're locked, you're incubated in this small space and we didn't know what was going on. So I stopped on the 14th of June, 2020, I think it was. And I thought, I'll do it for a couple of, you know, days. And then it came to the weekend and then 11 days later, it was, I think, you know, I was coming up to her birthday and I realized that I hadn't not drunk on my birthday for over 40 years. I thought, that's weird. So I got through that. And then I just sort of got into the rhythm of it, you know, and I like the idea that I had control over something, um, you know, that, that, that benefited the whole family. And then when we started to open up, I went to a friend's house. We met, you know, with

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  distance and masks and we met outside and he has extraordinary wine and, and tequila. And he offered me both and I sort of was about to, and then I pulled back and said, no, let me see, you know, and, and it was fine. And since then it's, you know, it's, it's, it's been fine. And I, you know, and it's, it's, and I, I don't know whether I've had any eureka moments of, oh, this is what it's all about, uh, and any epiphanies, but it's, it, it was a control thing, I think. And it was also out of respect for my family. And, you know, my kids don't drink, my boys don't drink, they don't, you know, which is extraordinary.

• 1:35:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  I was 12, I was drinking, you know.

• 1:35:21Rich Roll?

  It is interesting that generation doesn't have the same relationship with alcohol that our generation did. Like I've been out in lots of, you know, kind of bars on the east side with the boys playing gigs and, you know, all these different venues around LA, kind of the hip, where like a lot of 20 somethings are hanging out. And every time I look at Julian, I'm like, nobody's drinking. Or maybe like, you know, like maybe 10 to 15% of the people have a beer in their hand that they're nursing. And that's just not what it was like when we were that age, you know, being out, right?

• 1:35:53Speaker 01

  It was, you know.

• 1:35:54Rich Roll?

  I mean, I'm sure there's a whole litany of other drugs that they're more interested in, but, um, but the, the, the thing with alcohol is very different.

• 1:36:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, it was really cultural for us, you know, it was cultural, it was out there on films and rock bands and, you know, it was just part, part of the course of growing up and becoming a man, you know, ate plants and then we ate the whiskey, you know, and it was that kind of thing. And how. You know, I think that's probably in my forties when my metabolism started to change drastically. There was an element of vanity as well that I thought, you know, I I gotta keep in shape for my work and also I wanna clear head. So you stop doing it. But we we we really, we really were born into a culture, you know, New York, it was rolling rocks as many as you can, you know, down in an evening and it was all that sort of stuff.

• 1:36:43Rich Roll?

  Which, what were your bars in New York when you lived there?

• 1:36:45Speaker 01

  Oh, I was, I mean, I was Chica's Locus was the club that I used to go to in Tribeca and Nell's and Bar Spring, Spring Street Lounge. Do you remember that one on the corner of Mulberry and Spring? That was a great afternoon drinking place.

• 1:36:59Rich Roll?

  I never went there.

• 1:37:00Speaker 01

  Oh, that was great. It's all gentrified now. It was a really good time then in the eighties.

• 1:37:04Rich Roll?

  Nell's, Lucky Strike.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  Lucky Strike, Friday and Saturday. I know it has, hasn't it? I just saw that last year. No, that was my, my best mates who followed me to America were DJs there. So I was, that was my spot. That was my spot. I love that spot. We had so much fun in that spot, you know. Um, but, uh, I mean, it was just, I, I think we've got to learn what our limits are and how we want to create our life, right? And so at some point you make that decision. I don't know whether I'll, you know, I might drink again at some point, you know, it was, there was this romantic idea I had that one day I could introduce my boys to a glass of wine and, you know, we could do that, this sort of European.

• 1:37:48Speaker 01

  They, Europeans grow up drinking and that's that. But you know, I'm grateful that they're not interested, that they're not bothered about it. I think it's amazing. I think they realized a lot earlier the value through sports as well, which has been amazing for them, but the value of really taking care of yourself. And I think that's a positive of what they've been exposed to, having access to sort of YouTube podcasts like yourself and, you know.

• 1:38:14Rich Roll?

  It's, it's really, it's interesting and curious and fascinating to me, the idea of somebody who isn't an alcoholic parting ways with alcohol. Like, cause my, you know, I'm, I'm steeped in the world of, you know, people whose lives have been decimated as a result of drugs and alcohol and the process of, you know, what that breakup looks like and piecing your life back together, but. But the idea of somebody who really isn't a problem drinker, like breaking up with alcohol, I think is super interesting and is also a newer kind of cultural phenomenon that didn't quite exist. Like I had a podcast with this guy Andy Romage years ago. He's a British, former professional football player, turned banker and trader.

• 1:38:59Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:38:59Rich Roll?

  Who was living that lifestyle in London where it's all about, you know, going out after work.

• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  Wall street, yeah.

• 1:39:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, exactly. And had this epiphany that it wasn't working out for him and bucked the trend of his industry and decided that he wasn't going to drink anymore and created this community and movement called One Year No Beer. And he wrote this book about it. Maybe you've seen this book.

• 1:39:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, yeah.

• 1:39:21Rich Roll?

  I guess it's a big thing in the UK.

• 1:39:23Speaker 01

  I don't know, but I want to read it.

• 1:39:25Rich Roll?

  But it's really oriented around people who are not alcoholics, but whose lives can be improved by not drinking anymore and all the benefits of that and creating support for the non-problematic drinker to, you know, have a healthier lifestyle. And I think there's something really cool about that.

• 1:39:42Speaker 01

  I think that's superb. I haven't actually heard of that, but I'd love to look into that. I think, I think for me, it was out of respect for my family and it was out of respect of the situation, this weird situation that we were all collectively in, you know, being on lockdown. And it was controlled. It was, I couldn't travel anymore. I couldn't work anymore. I had to.

• 1:40:00Rich Roll?

  And your whole, like, that's how you get your sustenance.

• 1:40:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, that's, that really is it. You know, I go away, I take, I get my, you know, I get my, my fix of travel, of adventure, of other people, of culture. And then I come home and I try and deliver and, you know, employ that in, in being a good dad, you know, and being a good decent partner. And, and I think I just wanted to, I think I was.

• 1:40:29Speaker 01

  It became too habitual and I think if it's a negative habit, I think you have to challenge that at some point because otherwise you're going to be in the same rut over and over and over again. And I just really wanted to, I wanted to, I wanted to have a bit of control over my life. And I think that gave me a goal, you know, to do it, to, to have a good day and then, or get through a day. And yeah, I did okay. And in the morning, I wasn't snoring. I wasn't, you know, I wasn't sort of feeling stinky or whatever else and had a clearer head in the morning and then was able to, at that point, meditate and because there was a bit more time and I wasn't, that was just before I started Mr. Feelgood.

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  I was just sort of figuring it out with Pete, where we were going, designing the ideas that we wanted to run with. So I love that idea though. I must read that book. I love that idea. And that was really brave of him. That was really brave to actually, I would say, from my point of view, to be in that environment, that sort of, you know, pack, brat pack, whatever you want to call it.

• 1:41:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that probably was the hardest part for him because that was the culture of his profession.

• 1:41:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, completely.

• 1:41:38Rich Roll?

  That's probably true for a lot of people.

• 1:41:39Speaker 01

  Completely. And also, you know, in the old days, the football profession as well, it was, you know, there was, you know, half time and you, you had a cup of tea and a cigarette, you know, and then went out and played another 45 minutes. And now, of course, everyone's got so much information, they're so conscious of being athletes and having to perform, you know, the top game, bring, always bring in their top game that you, you have to look after yourself, you know. So I think it's, I think it's really interesting.

• 1:42:06Rich Roll?

  How long have you been married? How many years have you been married?

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  Uh, 1994. So what's that? That's 28 coming up, September the 3rd, the day World War II broke out. Yeah. And now our eldest son's, he was born two years to the day on our wedding anniversary, our second wedding anniversary. Yeah.

• 1:42:24Rich Roll?

  So how do you keep that fresh and healthy?

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  I think going away helps. I think having your own interests, passions, um.

• 1:42:35Speaker 01

  Helps, I think, just respect helps. I think holding hands, holding doors open. I think really supporting your partner's talents and challenges and ambitions, you know, and really being respectful, you know, and sometimes it's really challenging and sometimes we've, you know, it's difficult, obviously, but I think it's just trying to communicate honestly and with respect and with affection. I think affection is really important, you know, I think it's God, you're making me a bit emotional. I think it's really important to

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  to hold hands and to be grateful and to recognize, because they go through changes as we go through changes. We're not the kids we were when we were in our twenties. We're sort of, you know, we're not. And, you know, all sorts of things happen. And you've just got to be open and present and be kind, you know, and I think, I think you should ask Alison this, really. I think, I think I'm fortunate because I've got someone who's pretty steadfast in who she is and doesn't question things that I questioned a lot more when I was younger than I do now. And it's just so consistent. And I think

• 1:44:00Speaker 01

  she's taught me, especially in the last few years, to really be open and honest about my own shit, you know, and calling me on my own shit. And and I think as I've wrestled with that, my egos wrestle with that, but really there's a part of me, my nature is harmony, my nature is wanting to not be in conflict. I'm sort of

• 1:44:31Speaker 01

  I'm willing to, you know, be there and, and, and learn. And, you know, it's not a male and a female kind of traditional, you know, archetype. It's a real, we're a working team and we are a working team and our kids see that. And, you know, they know what to come to me for and they know what to come to their mum for. And she's an extraordinary mother. I mean, she's extraordinary. She's an extraordinary mother. She's an extraordinary human, but she's an extraordinary mother. And I kind of, I see that and I see how that's matured and developed over the years as we have. And it, and it really is, and it's just, you notice it.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  And I'm just in awe of that kind of natural, intuitive, instinctual, motherly bond that she has with our kids. And there's been times when I've been, you know, a little, little, little victim-y, what about me? I'm your dad, you know, and stuff like that. But she's sort of, without really going into the ethereal and the spiritual aspect of life. She's, she just kind of, she's okay. You know, she's, she's secure in that way. She's so, she's exceptional, but she's so regular and consistent in that.

• 1:45:46Rich Roll?

  Solid, yeah.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  And it's just a really, that's been a massive gift to me in my life. And I respect that and I honour that. And, you know, I think it's a case of, you know, keeping the affection alive. Keeping the, the physical aspects of life is really important to me. Uh, that sort of intimacy is really important to me physically and, and mentally. I think it's, I think it's honour. I think it's just honouring somebody, trying to do the best you can. And sometimes I'm rubbish, um, but I hope most of the time. Um, um, you know, my, my intention is good and honorable and, and, and I think you

• 1:46:29Speaker 01

  just have to, even in the madness of what we do and our work and the world and everything else, I think you have to take time and we, you know, tonight we're going to a movie. We're so excited to go in and go to a movie and, you know, and that's really good. We haven't been to a movie together for about six months, you know, because we've been too busy. So it's fine in that time and we go for a walk every day, but the kids come with us if they're there and the dog, you know, and I think that's a really nice thing to do. Just to, okay, let's get out of the house. Let's get away from this place and let's just together sort of just take the air and take in nature.

• 1:47:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah. All really basic things.

• 1:47:05Speaker 01

  Real basic things. Yeah. Just, you know, and I think, and you do it over and over again. And also, you know, her parents are, you know, eighteen, eight and eighty-nine. Her dad's eighty-nine. I mean, they've, you know, they've been in my life for a long time and.

• 1:47:18Rich Roll?

  And she grew up in a healthy environment. So that's, that modeling.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:47:24Rich Roll?

  Made her a healthy person.

• 1:47:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, really.

• 1:47:26Rich Roll?

  And spills into your kids.

• 1:47:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, it does. And they, and they are very close to their grandparents, even though they live in Yorkshire and our kids are over here in California and New York. They, and, and my mom as well, who's eighty-eight and is great, but you know, they, they really grew up with that. What we lived here, Alison and I, we moved, we were, I was here for twelve years between here and New York and Ally lived with me in LA. And then when Cooper was born, at nine months, we moved back to England because we wanted them to be around their grandparents. And I think their grandparents were really sort of involved with them and really made an effort, you know, and every kid, every grandkid, I think there's eleven of them all, all together between Ally and her brothers, always got a card and always

• 1:48:10Speaker 01

  got the same amount of money on them. They're very consistent. So she had that. They're so fair and, you know, every day they do the telegraph crossword and they're very active in, in sort of their respect for each other, the way they move around and, and delight in each other still, which is because my papa Noah, my father-in-law is just, I mean, he's like, he's, he's, he's gone from being a lawyer all his life and a golfer, massive golfer and, you know, president of several clubs and et cetera, et cetera. Very traditional English, solid background.

• 1:48:45Speaker 01

  Who never, they always say I taught him how to hug. Cause, cause he's, he in his retirement and as he's gotten older, he's just literally become like a Buddha and he's, he's, I mean, a Buddha in a, you know, in a very nice suit kind of thing, or a very nice shirt and tie, impeccable. But he's just got this joy about him and this freedom and this liberty and this warmth now, which is, it's just infectious and it's beautiful. So I think having Allison had that and my kids had that as an influence in their life. Um, really sort of influenced the way we go about it.

• 1:49:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:20Speaker 01

  In some ways.

• 1:49:21Rich Roll?

  It's beautiful.

• 1:49:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's positive.

• 1:49:22Rich Roll?

  And rare. Yeah, it's fantastic.

• 1:49:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:24Rich Roll?

  Um, one of the things, this is kind of the last thing I want to talk to you about. One of the things that I've been spending a lot of time thinking about and, and also trying to improve in my life is friendship, especially at our age, like, and for guys, like back to kind of mental health with men. I feel like women are, are naturally disposed to prioritize their friendships in a way that, that maybe guys aren't, to like make a blanket, you know, stereotypical statement. But I've just noticed that I've allowed busyness and also being a parent and other things that are important to me to supplant, uh, you know, how I, I practice friendship in my life.

• 1:50:06Rich Roll?

  And I think living in Los Angeles makes it difficult because everything's so spread out. If I was living in London or New York or a place like that where, you know, sort of moving around and, and, and being a social animal is, is, is a more kind of fluid and accessible experience than it is living here. So how have you, you know, thought about or, or, you know, maintained friendships in your life? Like, how do you think about that?

• 1:50:29Speaker 01

  I just, uh, it's just really vital to me. I think it's so important. I've got a friend, you know, I've got this friend who I've known since I was eight years old, came from the same place as me. His was the house that his parents allowed me to go on a Saturday and watch my first video. I'd see my first video machine, you know, and, and feel really safe there. And he's an extraordinary guy. Worked in factories, very working class. He and his wife adopted a little boy. They had a natural kid. They fostered kids. They adopted this little boy Brett and I think he was nine months old and. Brett was then diagnosed with brain cancer and for an eleven eleven years, they took him

• 1:51:09Speaker 01

  all over the world and they look, you know, and they total absolute contrasting life to my life, but he's one of the there, the greatest parents I've ever known because of what they've put into and to this day, his past four years now, I think Brett's gone, they're still fostering kids and their capacity for love and for openness and for care of other people just blows me away. So he's a friend that I've remained in touch. I've sent him a birthday card every year since we were twelve and I always remember and I and he didn't send me one until I hit fifty and now he gets me before I get him. I think with friends, I think we, I think if you've

• 1:51:50Speaker 01

  got a connection, I think you make an effort, you know, I really care about the men in my life. I really care about them. And I want to sit them down and I want them to be able to hang out and not feel they have to talk. I want them just to feel that they're loved. I want them to feel they're respected. I want them to feel that they're inspiring because they all are. They've all got character, parts of their character that's really important. So I think you do make an effort and we get busy. We're so busy and I'm already thinking about two of my friends that I want to talk to, you know, and I need to, I haven't spoken to them for a few days, but I always make an effort and I think, I think it's really

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  important to do that. I think it's, it's vital to us, you know, I think it's, you've got to have someone to go and talk to and it's funny, the ones, some of my friends, I'm thinking of one in particular, who has brought up a very English, you know, just, you know, Eaton and Oxford and that whole, you know, sort of class boarding school, the whole nine yards and is a kick ass mover and a shaker who's responsible for some of the entertainment world's greatest, greatest, most successful movies. And when I sit with him, having known him thirty years and I really want to see him because he's part of the village

• 1:53:13Speaker 01

  that helps raise my kids, as I hope I do with his, it's extraordinary how.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  Open he is, how vulnerable, how honest, how candid he is when we're together. And I think I provide that avenue for him. And it's not a conscious thing, it's just something that's developed naturally.

• 1:53:32Rich Roll?

  There's a trust.

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  There's a trust.

• 1:53:34Rich Roll?

  Of safety.

• 1:53:35Speaker 01

  There's a trust, you know, and I mean, and he's, you know, I know he values that and I value that and that's our time. So if it's a coffee or breakfast together, you know, or it's a text, you know, I tell him I love him all the time. I tell all my friends I love them because I do. And I think that's really important to, you know, there's nothing sissy about that. There's nothing effeminate or too sensitive about that. I mean, and if, if people think there is, I don't care.

• 1:54:05Rich Roll?

  No, I mean, I could just share from my own personal experience with you. You're so generous with your time and your words. Like when I was in London and I was staying at our mutual friend's flat and, you know, I would take a picture of a, of a, I would see a, like a Hockney and I know you love David Hockney and I'm like, I'm here in London. And then you would send me five paragraphs on like all the places I should go and what's magnificent about London and make sure you go here. And with such a, like a generosity of spirit, you know, that I think is rare and, and beautiful.

• 1:54:38Speaker 01

  Oh, man, I, I, bless you. I just, I, I, I, I hope it's not rare.

• 1:54:43Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:54:44Speaker 01

  I hope.

• 1:54:44Rich Roll?

  It is rare.

• 1:54:45Speaker 01

  Well, if it is rare, then we've got to, then, then it's about us just pushing it a bit and making sure our friends are okay. And make, I do that because I'm so grateful to you for what you do. And it just, you're in my town and I just want you to see the best, you know, I'm a brilliant tourist guide in New York, LA and, and London and, and, and I love it. I, I, I thrive on being able to show people a different side of things. And so those things I sent you is just knowing who you were. Who you are, having read your book and having gotten to know you over the couple of last couple of years, it was just natural for me to want to share that because whether you do it or not, you've got it now. And next time you're there, I want you to take

• 1:55:27Rich Roll?

  Because I think I only did like maybe one of the 10 things.

• 1:55:29Speaker 01

  That's okay. Two things, two things you've got to do is, one, you've got to take a bike ride around Richmond Park. You've got to sneak through the gate under a full moon. You've got to do that. That'll just be so good for you, I think. And the other thing is you've got to swim in the sort of the baths in Hampstead.

• 1:55:45Rich Roll?

  And Hampstead, yeah, that was the one thing I thought I was gonna make time for.

• 1:55:48Speaker 01

  Well, you will do.

• 1:55:49Rich Roll?

  And I could make it happen.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  You will do.

• 1:55:50Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:55:51Speaker 01

  Um, I think, um, I think it's, I think, you know, I think in a way, when you go to all the support you've had through your life with your challenges, didn't, don't you feel a connection and a friendship and a, and a transaction in the most positive way with the people that you stand with in meetings or?

• 1:56:11Rich Roll?

  Oh, for sure.

• 1:56:12Speaker 01

  You do?

• 1:56:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course.

• 1:56:13Speaker 01

  But do you just sort of leave that and that's, you know, you compartmentalize that? Or do you, I'm presuming you work with, as a mentor for people?

• 1:56:24Rich Roll?

  Not in any kind of formal way.

• 1:56:26Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:56:27Rich Roll?

  I mean, there's people in recovery and that's a separate thing. Um, but just in terms of like, I wouldn't say I'm formally anybody's mentor, but I try to be generous with my time.

• 1:56:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:38Rich Roll?

  My, maybe not advice, but you know, experience based, whatever I can share that can be helpful to other people. So I do put, I put time and energy into that. And that, those are like daily text messages.

• 1:56:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:50Rich Roll?

  Lots of different people for the most part.

• 1:56:52Speaker 01

  But like for

• 1:56:52Rich Roll?

  Occasional phone calls.

• 1:56:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. But for instance, when you, when I reached out to you and said, should we have a chat? Should we have a catch up? You come back from England. I'd been in Europe as well. It was just, you know, I didn't know if you had time because I presume like me, you're, you know, you're, you're very busy. Um, and I also respect that you need your time out and you want to go cycling, I presume, and that you want to have that time to just sort of, you've got a lot going on. So I respect the fact that you're a very busy man, but we met, right? And I had no idea that this would be the, the fruit of what we sat down. I just wanted to see you because I really wanted to see you, you know? And it, to me, it was those sort of things, whether they're spontaneous and usually when it's spontaneous, I find it's even better and it's more inspiring. Um, just a

• 1:57:39Speaker 01

  That's the magic of friendship, you know, sitting down and having a conversation like we're doing now and just being able to learn something, be challenged, you know, feel warm, feel safe, you know, and know that the person's opposite you and you do this so well, really has your best intentions at heart, you know, and that's a, that's a beautiful thing, man. That's got such power to support and inspire and, and, and as an example as well to my kids. You know, when I go and see my friends and I come back with an idea or some kindness in an interchange or something that I hadn't recognized, whether good or bad. I, I talk very frankly with my, my family and my kids, my, my boys especially,

• 1:58:23Speaker 01

  my daughters in LA, sorry, in New York, and, and, and that just cements the, my reason and my desire to actually keep doing this because it feels good. I'm sorry, I'm not, I'm, I'm really not me, I'm not, I'm not, it's not a commercial, but it really, it really does feel, that's coming out a lot more actually, which is really funny just in my day to day and it's not conscious, but it's interesting how this thing that was there and now it, I'm a hundred percent in it and it's literally manifesting from me and, and that's a, that's in a way is a, it's, it's a lovely way of sustaining oneself, even though I don't consciously choose to do that, but it is, it is a case of, I think,

• 1:59:05Speaker 01

  you know, it's if, if you feel good, if you vibrate at a certain level, if you can push yourself when you don't, I mean, I thought about it coming here and I actually mentioned it to my boys, you know, I said, don't say this, don't say that. And I'm like, I don't want to say anything. I just want to be free and I want to be open to you because you deserve that because of the work you do. And, and I said, I kind of feel like rich because I was never a long distance runner. I was a sprinter. I was a very good sprinter. And, and, and when I've tried, I think I've done once I did a 5K and that was it. And it took me, you know, three and a half hours and whatever. And I think that it was an interesting idea. I thought, okay, I'm feeling a bit nervous of what, because I want to give you everything and I want to.

• 1:59:48Speaker 01

  All the different things you, you know, doubts or whatever you have when you're coming into a situation and but I wanted to be mostly, I wanted to be honest and I want to be present for you. And I thought, I wonder this feeling, I'm not gonna, I'm gonna go with it, I'm gonna go with it because I trust that it's gonna be beautiful and I trust that there's gonna be some, some, something real and uh, come out of it. But I did think about you when you're running and when you're on the 20 second mile or whatever it is and it's really fucking hard work to push yourself or from my perspective to put even at 5K to push that foot in front of the other. And this is what I got from your book as well and just to keep going, keep going, get to the other side. And I thought, well, it's almost

• 2:00:28Speaker 01

  the same mentally if you can, you know, utilize that skill and that mindset to just push you a little bit further mentally or in public speaking or whatever it is, then that's, that's what you gotta do. You gotta chip away at that mountain, get a bit higher and get a bit higher and just it, it really is a case of will and a case of applying yourself and, and you know, not giving in to those little, you know, doubts are traitors that make us lose what we oft might win by failing to attempt. I think Shakespeare said something like that, you know, you've just got to keep cracking on. So I think I just took us on a whole tangent, didn't I?

• 2:01:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know, but I love it.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 2:01:06Rich Roll?

  No, it is, it is true. And you know, the, the, the magic is in the chipping, right?

• 2:01:10Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:11Rich Roll?

  You wanna think about the, the grand gestures and the, you know, the, the sort of sweeping successes, et cetera. But it's really the, the, you know, unromantic and unglorious.

• 2:01:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:01:22Rich Roll?

  Little chipping away every single day when no one's looking.

• 2:01:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is.

• 2:01:25Rich Roll?

  And like any, anything worthwhile demands that and you're in it right now.

• 2:01:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, man. I mean, what did you call it? I think a couple of years ago, you're in the fire.

• 2:01:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:36Speaker 01

  I think you're in the fire. I think you said Julie had said something like that. And I was like, oh, please let me be beyond the fire. And this, and I knew it was just the beginning then when I interviewed you. So I thought, oh my goodness. So I really relate to your story. I really relate to different circles, uh, different colors and paints, but it's the same sort of basic thing, you know, we're, we're grafting and it's in, and, and, you know, we've got to get through, we've got to keep going. And there's some days where I'm overwhelmed and I feel like I just wanna, you know, hide away or get on a motorbike and just get out into the desert and sort of lose myself or drink. And I think now you've just gotta, you gotta let it go, you gotta keep going and, and then it sort of takes on its own momentum and you, and you think, actually, I actually

• 2:02:21Speaker 01

  made it. I made deadline last night. Okay, I managed to put all these things together and look how good it looks and look how well it's written. Not me, I'm not saying just me, but it's, there's an honesty and an integrity there. And so that, you know, that gives me a little more confidence and then I'll, but I keep at it. I keep at everything. I'm, I'm definitely apart from long distance running, maybe one day you'll take me terrified, but you know, maybe till my lungs are like, you know, bursting. I know. Are you okay? Yeah. But also, you know, obviously cut this out if you want, but you are a friend and, and you are some, and you're gonna have to take this

• 2:03:04Speaker 01

  for a second. You're someone I admire tremendously and inspired by you tremendously. And the fact that you give me time as well, like we did it when we met for a cup or a juice, you know, that's just brilliant. That means so much to me and it inspires me. And then I, you know, it's a ripple effect. And that's, I just think if we brought more kindness and presence and sustained support into the circle of people that we interact with, whether it's your audience or whether it's your family and friends, I think that's a really positive move forward.

• 2:03:38Rich Roll?

  Well, I appreciate that and I'm certainly all about that. And to the extent that I can, you know, be available to you to help you in that regard. And I love that idea that you mentioned earlier about the round table. You know, I think there's something really special about that. So.

• 2:03:54Speaker 01

  There really is. And I've already got a, there's a, there's a list in my head. It was interesting. It was, I was shooting and writing to about Nicolai, Niccolo, sorry, Niccolo Beini.

• 2:04:06Rich Roll?

  The architect.

• 2:04:06Speaker 01

  The architect. And, and he's an extraordinary man. He's full of passion and life and. An affection, he's Italian, but he grew up in Australia and then came to California. And, you know, he's got the best of all those cultures and really warm human being. And we went to shoot him, take photographs of him, his house. And I'd interviewed him in January, but, you know, we had to hold off for one reason or another. And at the end of it, there was just myself and the photographer in his home and he'd done this lovely plate of Italian foods, you know, cheeses and hams, et cetera, et cetera. And we sat down and the conversation we had afterwards was just so incredible and so beautiful.

• 2:04:50Speaker 01

  And Alex, the photographer, who's probably thirty or thirty-two, who really wanted to shoot Nick, Nick, because he just, he'd met him once before and loved him in his energy. We sat down and we had this conversation. The next day I said, I said, wasn't that wonderful? Didn't it feel good? And he was like, oh, absolutely. I said, and the pictures are amazing, you know, we did it like in an hour and really good pictures, you know, really great. We really captured his soul. And he said, yeah, it really was amazing. He said, but what was most amazing was the conversation we had afterwards. And that was a kid who's thirty. And it just made me think that I know like ten men that I know that I have such, you know, respect for. And I just thought, we should sit down and we should all talk about this. We should film it.

• 2:05:31Speaker 01

  We should, we should make it natural and real, but useful to other kids and to other people as an example of what can be done in a, in a masculine way, you know, we're not, you know, in a really elegant, true, real way. Have a conversation. We all need to, you know, listen and talk more.

• 2:05:51Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 2:05:52Speaker 01

  Right?

• 2:05:53Rich Roll?

  That's why we're both doing what we're doing.

• 2:05:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, we are. And I bless you.

• 2:05:57Rich Roll?

  Well, bless you, to be continued.

• 2:06:00Speaker 01

  To be continued.

• 2:06:01Rich Roll?

  The conversation is just one conversation.

• 2:06:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, right on.

• 2:06:06Rich Roll?

  You're more beautiful on the inside than the outside. I do consider you a friend and I appreciate the energy that you brought to this today. And please consider me, you know, at your service for anything that you need in, in service to what you're trying to express and manifest, because I think it's really cool and special. So, thanks, John.

• 2:06:25Speaker 01

  Bless you, man. Bless you. I really appreciate you. Thank you.

• 2:06:29Rich Roll?

  All right, cool.

• 2:06:41Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as The Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify,

• 2:07:21Rich Roll?

  and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, The Meal Planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg. Graphic

• 2:08:06Rich Roll?

  and social media assets courtesy of Daniel Salis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants. Namaste.