Arthur Brooks: Cracking The Code To Happiness

Author of the instant #1 NYT bestseller entitled From Strength to Strength—today Arthur C. Brooks shares the ​​roadmap for finding success, happiness, and deep purpose in our later years. A professional French horn player turned social scientist, Arthur served as president of the American Enterprise Institute think tank in DC for a decade—and is currently a professor of public leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School and professor of Management Practice at the Harvard Business School. In addition, he writes the popular How to Build a Life column at The Atlantic, which is also home to his podcast, The Art of Happiness. Needless to say, this guy and his work are featured in every prominent media outlet there is. Today’s episode is also viewable on YouTube: bit.ly/arturbrooks683 More about Arthur + show notes: https://bit.ly/richroll683 Arthur is as charismatic as he is whip smart. This one is packed with priceless wisdom and actionable takeaways for everyone regardless of age. I hope you learn as much from Arthur as I did. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:05Arthur Brooks?

  Love is a decision and not a feeling. It's a measure of who you are as a person, is your decision to love in a world full of hate. How do you reestablish your relationship with your spouse and kids when that has become cordial at best? How do you kick a success addiction that is deeply rooted in the neuromodulator? It's reestablishing love relationships and replacing the substitutes for love that will never truly satisfy you. Meaning and purpose for you are simply intertwined with the suffering that you've had with substance abuse, for example, with the relationships that suffered as a result of that. And that's the cosmic truth of meaning. When you avoid pain, you're avoiding meaning.

• 1:48Arthur Brooks?

  When you're avoiding learning what your purpose is through resiliency, what you're capable of, and the lessons you're supposed to learn, to avoid your unhappiness is to avoid your happiness, which is that we need pain. The secret to being more satisfied is not having more, it's wanting less. That's the secret.

• 2:16Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. So last week, we dove deep on the value of wisdom accrued with age, what it means to be a modern elder, and how to adapt as we grow older. And we did that with Chip Conley. Well, today, we extend that conversation, how to make the second half of life better than the first. And we're going to do it with the esteemed Arthur C. Brooks on the occasion of his latest book, his 12th and an instant number one New York Times bestseller, entitled From Strength to Strength, which is this really powerful roadmap for finding success, happiness, and deep purpose in our later years. Arthur is a professional French

• 2:59Rich Roll?

  horn player turned social scientist. He was the president of the American Enterprise Institute think tank in DC for a decade, and he's currently the professor of public leadership at the Harvard Kennedy School, as well as professor of management practice at the Harvard Business School. In addition, he writes the popular How to Build a Life column at The Atlantic, which is also home to his podcast, The Art of Happiness. And if you Google him, you'll quickly realize that this guy and his work is prominently plastered on essentially every prominent media outlet there is. I enthusiastically dubbed this conversation overflowing with wonderful, and it's coming right up. But first...

• 3:51Rich Roll?

  Okay, Arthur Brooks. I'm sorry, Arthur C. Brooks. Can't forget that C. So, we cover a lot in this one. How to define happiness and strategies to improve it. We talk about the role that negative emotions play in living a meaningful life. We discuss the crisis of meaning that visits people as they age. Also, the strivers curse, or what happens when we prioritize specialness over happiness. We talk about the difference between fluid and crystallized intelligence, how to confront your inevitable decline. We talk about the increasingly important role that friendship, family, faith, and service play in finding happiness as we age.

• 4:36Rich Roll?

  And many other topics. As I mentioned, this episode is very much of a piece with my conversation with Chip Conley. It's sort of an extension or bookend to that conversation, if you will. So if you enjoy Chip, you're gonna love Arthur. He's very charismatic. We got on like a house on fire. This one is packed with priceless wisdom and actionable takeaways for everyone. It's also just super fun, and I think you're gonna dig it. So let's do the thing. This is me and Arthur Brooks, Arthur Seabrooks.

• 5:11Rich Roll?

  Do you still go to India every year?

• 5:13Arthur Brooks?

  Well, I can't during the coronavirus epidemic because it's been closed, but I have, you know, I did until coronavirus, once or twice a year. It's super important to me. It's just, it's, you've been there, of course.

• 5:22Rich Roll?

  I haven't. Julie's actually only been once. I mean, she went to Arunachal.

• 5:27Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, so I'd go to, every year, I would do three things. I would do business stuff in either Mumbai or Delhi, you know, meeting with government officials and, you know, random capitalists. And because they're so interesting, you know, the billionaires in India are so interesting, right? And every year, go to Dharamsala, see His Holiness, Dalai Lama. And then, and then in the South, I would actually study with somebody. In Palikad or someplace like that, I would actually find a guru who was, who was willing to, you know, spend a day with me.

• 5:55Rich Roll?

  It's so interesting that you square that with being, you know, this, this, I don't know if you would call it devout, but it seems like you're a pretty devout Catholic.

• 6:05Arthur Brooks?

  Yes.

• 6:05Rich Roll?

  Like, how does that, how does that line up?

• 6:09Arthur Brooks?

  I love all religions, but I'm in love with the Catholic Church. And I learn as much about who I am as a Catholic by talking to people who are not. It's really, really important to talk to people who are not you. Because, you know, there's too much uniformity and spiritual compatibility does not expose you to enough complementarity. Complementarity in life is actually how you learn things. You learn things from people who are different than you in a lot of ways.

• 6:33Rich Roll?

  And you can stress test your...

• 6:34Arthur Brooks?

  Stress test, and also just they give you the better technique. I mean, studying with the Tibetan Buddhist monks in Dharamsala is how I learned to pray my rosary.

• 6:41Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 6:42Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. I learned how to pray the rosary with my breath and heart by studying with the Tibetan Buddhist monks.

• 6:47Rich Roll?

  That's interesting.

• 6:48Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 6:48Rich Roll?

  And you've, you've, how many times have you visited with the Dalai Lama?

• 6:53Arthur Brooks?

  Ten, eleven, something like that. Anytime I'm there. And he's there. The problem is that he's completely sequestered. So he's eighty-six.

• 6:59Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 7:00Arthur Brooks?

  Or eighty-seven now. In July, it would be eighty-seven in July. But he's been in the States many times with me, too. So when he would come here, you know, and we would, we've been in different parts of the States and I would interview him. And we've written together, too, which is interesting.

• 7:13Rich Roll?

  What would you say is the, the primary thing that you've kind of extracted from being in his presence?

• 7:19Arthur Brooks?

  The understanding that the, the decision, that, that love is a decision and not a feeling.

• 7:25Rich Roll?

  Elaborate.

• 7:26Arthur Brooks?

  It's that, that, well, the same time as Aquinas said that to love is to will the good of the other. It's nothing about feelings. And this is an ancient medieval teaching that actually comes from Aristotle. That love, filia, is a, is a positive decision on the basis of who we are as people. And the Dalai Lama lives that every single day. He says, "You must decide to love. You must decide to love. You might not like." To like, as Martin Luther King said, to like someone is a sentimental something. But to love somebody is a positive decision. It's hard. It takes work. It's, it's a measure of who you are as a person, is your decision to love in a world full of hate. And the Dalai Lama is a, is a living embodiment of that. He's as wonderful as he seems.

• 8:10Rich Roll?

  I suspect that's true. And it's interesting to hear love contextualized as this action verb that you have control over. It, it gives you a sense of agency.

• 8:19Arthur Brooks?

  Absolutely.

• 8:20Rich Roll?

  And I think our Western notion of it is backwards in the sense that we're looking to receive love, but we're not really adequately focused on how we're, how we're giving it or exuding it.

• 8:30Arthur Brooks?

  Absolutely. We're a feeling-based society. And this is actually one of our great, I mean, you think, so one of your sort of preternatural gifts is how you've engineered your life on the basis of what you wanted it to be. You know, this is one of the reasons that I listen to your show and many people do, is because they want agency. They want to be fully alive and to be managed by themselves as opposed to be managed by their urges, their impulses, their appetites and their feelings. That's a phenomenon that we call metacognition. And you're the walking example of metacognition. You made decisions on how you're going to live and you lived that way. And that is not a, just a Western brainy idea. On the contrary. You know, the Dalai Lama shows that and by understanding ourselves at a certain remove, we can make these decisions for ourselves, including how we're going to treat others,

• 9:14Arthur Brooks?

  the love that we're going to show to the rest of the world.

• 9:17Rich Roll?

  I'm trying to take that in. I'm trying to get better at like receiving, but when I hear you say that, all I'm thinking is, oh, you have no idea. Like, I'm gonna tell, wait till I get to the part where I get to tell you about, you know, how much your latest book like spoke to me and how many things it's given me to think about how imperfectly I've kind of made this transition and live it on a daily basis. And, you know, I look at it as a series of light posts or kind of, you know, aspirational behavior patterns. But I suspect, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this, like, this is not a linear thing. Like, this is a, this is a one step forward, two steps back at times kind of thing that, you know, requires a level of mastery that we'll all take to our grave.

• 10:01Arthur Brooks?

  For sure. And the reason I wrote it is because precisely I'm on the same journey. And I wrote it as my own exercise in metacognition, which says, you know, I can be managed by my feelings, or I can manage them. And the only way to manage your feelings, I mean, the greatest way, Western way at least, to manage your feelings is to journal.

• 10:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 10:18Arthur Brooks?

  It's my journal. This book is my journal.

• 10:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 10:21Arthur Brooks?

  Is the journal of actually the, what I actually found in my research and how I wanted to apply it to my life. And the only way that I can do that is to make it something I can share with you, the way that I can share it with other people. I know, I'm sure that you, the, the road to being the man that you are includes helping people to be their best selves as well. I'm sure that this is, this show is a form of therapy for you.

• 10:43Rich Roll?

  Oh, 100%. I mean, I invite people on who can help me figure out how to take that next step on my growth arc, or who can talk me through whatever it is I'm going through now. So it's, it is very self-serving in that regard, but the greater mission, of course, or the guiding light, is this effort to be of service. And in that, of course, is the meaning and the purpose, which is at the heart of this book that you've written. And a side benefit is, it's a vocation that can support my family. But there's an ego piece to it and there's a, you know, a sense of like, how special can I be? You know, that plays into all of that and I want to unpack all of that, but let's just, we should probably kind of like set the stage and contextualize what it is that we're actually talking about.

• 11:28Rich Roll?

  We just had Chip Conley in here the other day.

• 11:31Arthur Brooks?

  I love Chip.

• 11:32Rich Roll?

  He's the best.

• 11:33Arthur Brooks?

  He's very special.

• 11:33Rich Roll?

  And so we had a different version of what we're going to talk about today, but all of this kind of subject matter is swimming around in my mind like a soup. So maybe the best place to start is with how you conceived of this book to begin with, because it kind of starts with this incident that occurred on an airplane.

• 11:50Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Arthur Brooks?

  Right now, I write, speak and teach about human happiness, but 10 years ago, I was the president of a think tank, a Washington-based research organization. You grew up in DC and you know what these things are all about, but a lot of, you know, the people who are watching and listening to us right now, this is like a university without students, which many professors would say is the best kind of university.

• 12:10Rich Roll?

  A bunch of smart people sitting around, coming up with ideas, trying to impress each other.

• 12:14Arthur Brooks?

  Influence public policy. It's a very DC thing. And it was a great organization. It's been around since 1938 and I was feeling like a proper big shot, being the president of this organization and it was, it was great as far as it went, but I was having a little bit of a crisis trying to understand what the future was going to hold. I wasn't especially happy. I was working more than I wanted to. I was, I was away from my family more than I should have been and there was no end game. I mean, work, work, work, work, croak?

• 12:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 12:41Arthur Brooks?

  Work, go to the wheels come off. It wasn't exactly clear and furthermore, the whole idea is be as successful as you possibly can and finally you'll find satisfaction. That didn't seem right and I was, I'm a social scientist, so this is more than idle curiosity. I mean, it's a research question for me and I didn't know, quite know how to get my mind around it. And as I was going through this period of reflection, I guess, I had this experience where I was on an airplane and I heard, overheard a conversation. Now, my laboratory as a social scientist is overheard conversations on an airplane. So if I overhear you, you know, talking to your wife, it might become a book.

• 13:12Rich Roll?

  Right, as this did.

• 13:14Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, exactly right.

• 13:15Rich Roll?

  Careful.

• 13:16Arthur Brooks?

  Uh huh.

• 13:16Rich Roll?

  And Check your seats before you

• 13:19Arthur Brooks?

  Make sure you're not sitting behind Arthur Brooks. Fortunately, I'm getting, you know, my hearing is not as great as it used to be. So, but anyway, so the guy behind me, I could tell he was an elderly gentleman and he was talking to somebody I assumed to be his wife, who sounded like an elderly lady. And he was, as near as I could tell, explaining to her that he might as well be dead. And his wife was trying to console this obviously disconsolate man, saying, "It's not true. You'd be better off if you were dead." He's kind of mumbling, it's going on for 20 minutes, that nobody respects him, nobody remembers him, nobody thinks about him. And I'm thinking, this is a guy who's probably disappointed with his life. He didn't actually live up to his own expectations, or get the education he wished he had. And he's disappointed because it's over. He's probably 85, I don't know.

• 14:01Arthur Brooks?

  The end of the flight, it was from coming from here in LA out to Washington Dulles, and it's a nighttime flight, so I couldn't really see, it was dark. And when we landed, you know, the lights go on, everybody stands up, and I'm curious. And I'm not trying, it's not prurient interest, but you know, humans, it's my gig. So I just flip around to see, and it's one of the most famous men in the world. This is somebody who's done 10 times as much with his life as I ever will, or hope to. He's rich, he's famous, he's a hero. He's somebody who's not controversial, he's not senator, he's not an entertainer. He's somebody who has done amazing things with his life a long time ago, and is still rich and famous as a result of it, still dining out on it. And I get this glimpse of this mistaken view of satisfaction and happiness.

• 14:46Arthur Brooks?

  Like, the world tells us, "Do a lot with what you've been given. Succeed, work hard, strive, achieve, bank it, die happy." That's what the world tells you to do. That's what the world says, that that's the secret to your happiness, is money, power, pleasure, fame, on the basis of your achievements. Do it as early as possible. There's even a name for it, based on a, it's called the Holderland Strategy. Is, is get rich, famous, successful, powerful, early, and then dine out on it for the rest of your life, because you, you can achieve that permanent satisfaction. You kind of know that's not right, but I heard this guy, if anybody should be happy with his life, and proud of what he had done,

• 15:27Arthur Brooks?

  it should be this guy. And I thought, so is it a, is he an outlier? Or is the whole model wrong? And I started looking into that, and furthermore, I thought to myself,

• 15:39Arthur Brooks?

  You're on the wrong track to me. You know, the way I'm going, 30 years from now, I'm going to be explaining to my wife on a plane that I might as well be dead. Because I'm not very happy, and I'm not gonna suddenly get happy. Let's be honest with ourselves. I'm on a treadmill here. And I gotta find some way to get off, because that's where it ends.

• 16:00Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 16:00Arthur Brooks?

  And I'm not happy now, so come on. And furthermore, looking at the data, as a social scientist, I know perfectly that the people who tend to be most unhappy at the end of their lives are the people who achieve the most earlier in their lives. It's exactly the opposite of what the world tells us, because if you achieve a lot early on, you can never, ever live up to your impossibly high expectations. And furthermore, when the party's over, you know it. You know, what goes up must come down.

• 16:28Rich Roll?

  Well, we see this played out in all kinds of ways. I mean, it's the high school quarterback whose glory days are, you know, behind him at 18.

• 16:36Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 16:36Rich Roll?

  And never leaves the small town. Or, you know, the professional athlete who had a couple of good years and has to retire at, you know, I don't know, 32.

• 16:45Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 16:46Rich Roll?

  And then is faced with the prospect of trying to find something as exciting and as meaningful, which is, you know, almost a fool's errand.

• 16:54Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 16:54Rich Roll?

  At that point. And it's a setup, right? Because you think, well, how could my life already be over? And this idea that that sense of satisfaction that you get with setting out and then achieving these goals has any kind of lasting emotional impact that would give you some kind of sustainable sustenance later in life, doesn't make any sense at all.

• 17:16Arthur Brooks?

  It doesn't make sense on reflection. And yet, the limbic system of your brain, your primordial processing center for appetites, the things that make you drink too much, the things that make you reactive when you're angry, they tell you, it's gonna work, man, it's gonna work. Just stay on that treadmill. Mother Nature wants you to. Be have a lot of fitness in your capacity to pass on your genes. She does not care if you're happy. She will trick you until the end of your life.

• 17:42Rich Roll?

  The neurochemistry is both interesting and powerful here. Like my lens for this type of thing is always through recovery and addiction. As somebody who's been in recovery for a long time. So it's clear like when you lay it out. It's like, oh, well, this is an addictive relationship with something that is steering you astray. But the neurochemistry of the constant dopamine hit and then the need for the bigger dopamine hit is a powerful means by which we can all delude ourselves into thinking, well, yeah, but this next thing or this next thing is going to satisfy it.

• 18:15Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, no, no, if I, you know, I'm finally going to drink so much. I don't need to drink anymore. Nobody has ever said those words. You know, it's like it's, it's, and, and, but there's an actually added layer of tyranny to this, which is that, you know, when you were in the worst parts of alcohol abuse, nobody said, hey, Rich, good job. That's a lot of alcohol. I'm really impressed. But if you're a-

• 18:36Rich Roll?

  The social reward system is, is inverse to that.

• 18:38Arthur Brooks?

  But if you're a hopeless success addict?

• 18:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:41Arthur Brooks?

  And, you know, and you, and you, we were the 14th hour instead of the first hour with your children. You could pat it on the back. Are you kidding me? Cause you're just, you're a hard worker and you're successful and you're do, you're, they congratulate you. They admire you. Nobody admires somebody for doing five grams of cocaine on a Saturday night.

• 18:58Rich Roll?

  I know a few people who might.

• 19:01Arthur Brooks?

  You're gifted.

• 19:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

• 19:04Arthur Brooks?

  But this is the key, but it, it presses the same levers, you know, hit the, hit the lever, get the cookie, um, which is how dopamine works. I mean, we, we understand this better and better. The, the anticipation of the reward is so powerful in creating the craving, whether it's a behavioral or a chemical addiction, it all works the same way. And by the way, you notice that people who are really successful, who are success addicts, they tend to abuse alcohol more than people who are not. You know, the people, the, the so high socioeconomic status, people who work really, really long hours. According to OECD, you know, data across virtually every country, especially for men, they tend toward alcoholism. They tend toward drug abuse. They, these are-

• 19:43Rich Roll?

  Well, maintaining that level of- Intensity, you need a, some kind of escape valve.

• 19:47Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, and there's also cross addiction. You know, dopamine is dopamine. And these are, there's comorbidities between dopamine. This is one of the reasons that if you go to the doctor and if you've abused alcohol, the first thing that, and you say, I can't sleep, the doctor should not prescribe you Ambien. Because you could get addicted to Ambien much more easily than somebody who's never engraved these dopaminergic pathways into the brain like, you know, you know, Rich Loves Suzie on a tree that you're mortified to see for the rest of your life, even though the tree continued to grow.

• 20:14Rich Roll?

  So, explain this existential crisis that so many people face. Like, you, you kind of set the stage, but the experience of trying to reckon with this reality is something I think a lot of people can relate to. If they're not in it, they're inching towards it.

• 20:31Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. And this is especially true for strivers. You know, the people who want to make a lot of their lives, the people who are trying to be their absolute best selves. That they measure it in worldly terms, money, power, honor, which is, you know, admiration, or even the envy of other people. These are natural yardsticks that they use. But there's a couple of things that go wrong with that. Number one is this, is the satisfaction paradox. You actually can't find satisfaction by getting enough of those things. You will reset. There's a process that the brain, in any biological process in the human body is called homeostasis, that takes you back to equilibrium. Because if you stay out of equilibrium, you will die. You have to be ready for the next set of circumstances, whether it's physical or emotional, to be sure.

• 21:15Arthur Brooks?

  But the bigger problem on this is that you will outrun your ability even to do the things that you did well, which is the thrust of what I'm, was writing about, what I've been writing about in my research. I mean, the strategic plan for the rest of my life. You find that what, what people who are really good early on, what they have in common is, is they're, they face the puzzle of the fact that things weirdly, that they were really good at and getting better at, start getting harder in their 40s. So, and, and nobody else knows this, because if you're a real striver, whether you're in financial industry, or you're a doctor, or a lawyer, or an electrician, or a bus driver, and you're just good at what you do and you take pride in it. Nobody's gonna notice when things that used to be easier are a little bit harder. That you're just, and you're not making progress anymore, but you notice.

• 21:57Arthur Brooks?

  The thing is that what happens typically is in one's mid 40s, after working really hard and just seeing things get easier and being congratulated because you do a good job, that you're like, "I don't, I'm kind of burning out. I'm kind of feeling bored by this." That's a signal that actually things have gotten harder. So your dentist at 45 starts taking Fridays off. Why are you taking Fri- I thought you loved being a dentist. I used to love being a dentist, but you know, everybody gets bored. They're not bored. They're actually in the wrong side of their fluid intelligence curve. Fluid intelligence is your ability to innovate, your ability to focus, your ability to get better and better. You're a ninja at your job. And your 20s and 30s is when it's like blue ocean, man. I mean, you're just like, you're getting, you're, and then your late 30s, you peak.

• 22:41Arthur Brooks?

  Cause, cause fluid intelligence peaks in your late 30s, early 40s, and you start to decline. And people who try to stay on that curve, who try to keep their groove, who, who, who want to be special in that particular way, woe be unto them. Because they're gonna ride that curve all the way down to the basement. They're gonna wind up like the man on the plane behind me.

• 22:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, a couple of observations. First of all, baked into the DNA of this driver is going to be a denial of that declining fluid intelligence. They're just, they're gonna fight it all the way to the death and just try to outrun it, basically, right?

• 23:12Arthur Brooks?

  Do harder and harder and harder work, because it always worked in the past.

• 23:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and what was, you know, somewhat dispiriting, there's a silver lining to it, but somewhat dispiriting is not only the inevitability of the decline of this fluid intelligence, but how early it comes a calling.

• 23:28Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, absolutely. And, and you can keep doing the thing that you're doing. I mean, I was perfectly fine doing what I was doing. I was running a company and, and I was, you know, super energetic, doing all the things that I was doing, but I was noticing it was getting less satisfying and I didn't have, I didn't have the focus that I had before. And I couldn't quite understand why. And I thought maybe it was because I was just less interested, or I was out of steam or something. And what it was, was I was on the wrong, I was on the downward part of my fluid intelligence curve. And I did not know that, that I was making a big mistake, which was the failure to recognize that that was not my only success curve, that there was another one behind it.

• 24:07Rich Roll?

  Well, before we get to that, though, so you're 58.

• 24:09Arthur Brooks?

  Yes.

• 24:10Rich Roll?

  Right?

• 24:10Arthur Brooks?

  I'm turning 58 and yeah.

• 24:12Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 24:12Arthur Brooks?

  May 21st.

• 24:12Rich Roll?

  Almost 58.

• 24:13Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  Nobody would accuse you of having lost half a step, though, right? Like, it's a self-di... it would have to be a self-diagnosed thing, which would require, like, a level of self-awareness and enough inside work to be able to call yourself out.

• 24:30Arthur Brooks?

  Truly. I mean, but this is the Striver's standard, is you versus you. What all Strivers know is they got better than they were before. The Strivers, you know, sine qua non of excellence is I was better than yesterday. I mean, you're like a super athlete, and if you're losing a step in what you're actually doing athletically, that's bumming you out, despite the fact that you're eating everybody's lunch for people who are your age. That means nothing to you.

• 24:54Rich Roll?

  No. My visit to the pool today was, you know, it was a reckoning with my own mortality.

• 25:01Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, but if you were swimming compared to me, you know, it'd be like...

• 25:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but that doesn't count.

• 25:06Arthur Brooks?

  Exactly right. Exactly right. And so when you're losing a step compared to you yesterday, that's what's really, really painful. And so you know the solution, the Striver's solution is to work harder, work longer. And this gets into this deeply, deeply dysfunctional addictive behavior. Like, when you're chasing the high, what do you get? How do you chase the high? More of the drug. More of the drug. And when you're getting less of the high back, because, you know, homeostasis and drug addiction and drug abuse means that you take more and get less, and you simply have to do more and more and more. You're chasing the elusive high that actually comes from that. And that's what it's like to be on the wrong side of the fluid intelligence curve, mostly in your 40s, but at your 50s. But I know people in their 60s that are trying to keep up with the young guys.

• 25:51Arthur Brooks?

  You know, they were the star litigator. You were a lawyer before, and you know, they come in, they can crack any case. They're gifted. And the guys in their 60s and 70s, or 50s even, who are trying to keep up with the lawyers in their 20s and 30s, that's the wrong path.

• 26:05Rich Roll?

  You want to be Cincinnati's. You don't want to be the nattering old guy, you know, wandering down, you know, the hallway, knocking on people's doors.

• 26:13Arthur Brooks?

  It's true, but it's crazy, you know, when I, when I first finished my doctorate and I was writing these papers that were so mathematically sophisticated that today I can't understand them. And I wrote them when I was in my mid 30s and I can't understand them. And at first I thought, you know, when I was, when I was starting to, to lose my edge in this really pretty hardcore research, that I thought that I needed to work harder. I needed to, you know, go back over my textbooks to relearn my math to do that until I realized that this is the structure of the prefrontal cortex of my brain. And there was another path. There was a better path. Weirdly, this is not what we talk about. This is not the common knowledge because the, the success trajectory that's handed to us by our culture

• 26:55Arthur Brooks?

  is get better, get better, get better, get 10,000 hours. You'll never get worse. You can be a star for the rest of your life. Croak, done. And that was the perdition of the guy behind me on the plane. And by the way, when you look at the biographies of some of the greatest women and men through history, you find that they died bitterly unhappy because they were on the wrong side of their fluid intelligence.

• 27:14Rich Roll?

  Right. So talk about, there's a couple of really interesting examples. Like you talk about Darwin and Pasteur and, you know, these guys that we, you know, if you don't really know their story, you would never imagine that they, you know, suffered this, you know, kind of their version of this.

• 27:28Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. The biographies, the biographers don't care about if you were unhappy. They care that you were great. Because that's what goes down in history. You know, so Rich Roll, you know, he had this, all these millions of listeners to his podcast. They don't talk about the fact that, you know, something might not have been going right in your emotional life. That's because that's not interesting as far as the, the history of this drivers is concerned. Charles Darwin is a perfect example of this. Charles Darwin was the, he was the king of the Mambo in, when he was 27 years old. I mean, he came back from his voyage around the world where he visited the Galapagos Islands. It was the, the five year voyage of the Beagle that terminated from when he was 27 and he came back and dropped this, this atomic intellectual bomb, which later was known

• 28:09Arthur Brooks?

  as his theory of natural selection. He was, he was introducing the concept of evolution by his mid to late twenties. And he was almost overnight, the most famous celebrated scientist in all of Europe. He was rich. He was famous. He was the guy on the plane early in life, quite frankly, or, or any striver that we can imagine who's, you know, he's killing it and he earned it. I mean, he was, he was no slouch. And he developed that in the next couple of decades and then he hit a wall in his early 50s. He actually couldn't keep up mathematically with his own field because it was developing more and more and more. He needed the knowledge that today is what we call genetics, the field of genetics, which is just beyond his capacity. And so his forward progress stopped and he was not able to update. He couldn't, back in the old days, he wouldn't have been

• 28:52Arthur Brooks?

  able to, he would have been able to learn this new knowledge, but for some reason, he couldn't do it and his creative work never made any more advances. He wrote like 11 more books after that, but it was all straw in his mouth.

• 29:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:03Arthur Brooks?

  And he was, he went to his death regretting bitterly the disappointment that was the back half of his life.

• 29:10Rich Roll?

  And it was Gregor Mendel who picked up, picked up the football and took it across the goal line.

• 29:16Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 29:17Rich Roll?

  Poor Gregor Mendel. I feel like he deserves more, you know, more recognition.

• 29:20Arthur Brooks?

  Well, Gregor Mendel is an interesting case for sure. I mean, a Czech monk who wrote his papers in German and who invented the field of genetics, didn't actually get super famous for it until after his own death. Because after he invented the field of genetics, he was promoted by his local bishop to be the abbot of his monastery and he spent the rest of his life in management, doing human resource issues among the monks and he died in, and he died in relative humility, serving his religious community. So it's a kind of a different model, but in a way, it's a better model.

• 29:53Arthur Brooks?

  Do it.

• 29:53Rich Roll?

  Better than Darwin, for sure.

• 29:54Arthur Brooks?

  For sure. Yeah. But the other thing is that he, he moved on from his fluid intelligence curve and then went on to serving other people.

• 30:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 30:02Arthur Brooks?

  He went on to becoming, he went from being a player to becoming a coach in his own way, which is interesting.

• 30:07Rich Roll?

  Right. Which is similar to the trajectory of Bach that you talk about in the book.

• 30:11Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, these biographies are interesting. As a social scientist, I have a tendency to be like, study show. But it turns out that somebody's life shows can be more evocative and winds up, you know, helping me a lot more too. Bach is my favorite composer. I was a musician for many years and Bach was my favorite composer. He was unbelievably prolific. He lived 65 years, published more than a thousand pieces of music for every instrumentation of his time and had 20 kids. This is prolific, right? Ten lived to adulthood. And most of them-

• 30:42Rich Roll?

  How many wives?

• 30:43Arthur Brooks?

  Two, two. I mean, his first beloved wife Barbara died after seven kids. And then his, and his second wife, who was his copyist, had thirteen, his last thirteen kids. And, and he was a, he was a total family man, absolute family man. And, but what happened was the same thing had happened to Darwin, which is his forward progress stopped when he was about fifty years old. He was the most celebrated composer of the high baroque, which is this, you know, the music that we think of as Bach today was, was the rage. I mean, princes were seeking him out for commissions. And he was super famous in all over Europe, as famous as you could be before social media, before that. He didn't have a podcast, but he was pretty good, you know, and the Bach cast. He was very famous.

• 31:27Arthur Brooks?

  And, and about age fifty, he was supplanted because his own son, Carl Philipp Emanuel Bach, was developing a new musical style that took Europe by storm and left the high baroque in the dust. And Bach couldn't write in the new style. He just couldn't figure out how to write in the new style. He was too far down in his fluid intelligence curve. So he retooled his whole life. And he did it right by accident. He became the most celebrated beloved teacher of his time. He said, "I'm gonna teach all different kinds of music, especially the high baroque. I'm gonna teach chorus, I'm gonna teach organ, I'm gonna write textbooks." He was literally, had his pen in his hand, writing a textbook called "Die Kunst der Fugue", "The Art of Fugue", when he croaked. It was half a measure was written, and his own son, who had supplanted him, wrote in

• 32:11Arthur Brooks?

  the margins, "At this point, the composer put down his pen and died." It was like, "Strong finish." And, and he was surrounded in his ultimate, his last days, helping others, writing a textbook. The textbook, by the way, is played as music in concerts today. Imagine writing a textbook so incredible that's read as literature. That's what this is today. But at the time, it was like, I don't know, he's like an expert in disco, beats me. That's what we would think of as anachronistic at the time. And, and when, when he died, he died happy because he was known as the greatest teacher of his time, and he felt like he was serving other people. He was on his second curve, which is what the man on the plane missed, which is what Charles Darwin missed, which is what Linus Pauling missed, which is what so many strivers,

• 32:55Arthur Brooks?

  what you and I are in danger of missing.

• 32:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 32:58Arthur Brooks?

  Unless we can understand what that second curve is.

• 33:07Rich Roll?

  So, the second curve involves this reckoning with your declining fluid intelligence. In 12-step, they would say, you know, it's a moment of clarity that must visit upon you, where you realize that you have a problem. And then, the first step towards, you know, embarking on this second curve is a recognition and a cultivation of crystallized intelligence. So, let's explain that a little bit.

• 33:34Arthur Brooks?

  There's a sociologicalist in the middle of the 20th century named Raymond Katell, who noticed that there was kind of two kinds of geniuses. And what he meant was people who have exceptional ability and accomplishment. One blooms super early, and they have innovative capacity, the ability to focus, solve problems, and they're kind of sole proprietors, big early stars. You would see them in law, in science, in, you know, almost every field. There's a second kind of genius that blooms really late, like 50s and 60s. These are the ones who are more historians. They assemble other facts that actually exist. They use a vast intellectual library. They're better at working with people and forming teams. They're much better teachers.

• 34:18Arthur Brooks?

  So, applied mathematicians, for example, they use the theories that have been developed by other people in new and creative ways, but assembling them. They bloom really late. Theoretical mathematicians bloom really, really early. And so, he called the first "fluid intelligence," which is what Darwin had, and which he declined. The second, he called "crystallized intelligence," which is wisdom. The ability to recognize patterns, take information from other people, and put it into coherent stories and teach it. That's what it comes down to. That's what Bach did, it turns out. And there's these two different intelligence curves. Now, later on, research showed very clearly that everybody gets both. We all get both. Now, not everybody recognizes both. Darwin didn't recognize both, and a lot of people, you know, they stumble a lot early

• 35:02Arthur Brooks?

  in their lives until they don't actually realize their own form of genius, until they are much later, because they have a misspent youth, for example. Those are the people who only recognize the crystallized intelligence, but properly understood we both get both, and the mistake that we make is not walking from one to the other, but trying to stay on the first.

• 35:20Rich Roll?

  Or just holding on to the former until, you know, that ship is so capsized that making the transition into the latter becomes much more complicated.

• 35:30Arthur Brooks?

  For sure. I'm bitter. And through bitterness, you can, you can live in the past.

• 35:35Rich Roll?

  Right. So crystallized intelligence is more about synthesizing information, pattern recognition, also leveraging a lifetime of experience to, you know, have some kind of wisdom to share. And then really, it's about channeling it in service. I mean, we explored this with Chip. You know, he calls it being a modern elder, right? But whether you're a teacher, or a mentor, or an advisor, or what have you, it's really just a giving back of what you have, you know, accumulated.

• 36:05Arthur Brooks?

  Your knowledge.

• 36:06Rich Roll?

  Over the years, right?

• 36:06Arthur Brooks?

  And every profession.

• 36:07Rich Roll?

  Which for a striver also, it's sort of like, yeah, but it's about, it's about me getting, right? Like, what do you mean, I'm giving this away?

• 36:13Arthur Brooks?

  Totally, totally. I mean, it's the hubris that comes from the first curve is so hard to kick. It's so hard to kick. And part of this is because the, the accolades that you get as the sole proprietor is the super ninja.

• 36:26Rich Roll?

  Well, you have to be the, you have to be a bit of the man in the shadows. You're the guy behind the guy.

• 36:31Arthur Brooks?

  A lot, yeah. And so this is the interesting thing. So you find that, you can find it in almost any profession. So you go from researcher to, to teaching professor. You go from, in your former line of work, the star litigator to the managing partner. Or in entrepreneurship, you go from the innovator, the, the startup entrepreneur, to the venture capitalist. Because the venture capitalists, the most successful ones are pure crystallized intelligence. And you don't find venture capitalists who are 25, or are very successful, because they don't actually have the perspective and the, the pattern recognition built up through the school of hard knocks. You actually need to be a, most need to be a really good entrepreneur. And with that just incredible focus that comes from the crystallized intelligence curve, and then walk onto the second curve where you can pick out the, the ninjas.

• 37:13Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 37:15Arthur Brooks?

  Pick the winners.

• 37:15Rich Roll?

  In your case, when you became a professor at Harvard, was that a conscious decision of embracing crystallized, you know, this crystallized intelligence? Or was it a happenstance sort of thing?

• 37:26Arthur Brooks?

  No.

• 37:26Rich Roll?

  Where it just seemed interesting?

• 37:27Arthur Brooks?

  It was on purpose. It was on purpose. I mean, I gotta eat my own cooking. And I had done this research to find out how, I was in the middle of an executive career. That I understood it looked like it had a dead end for me. And I did the research and find out that sure enough, I was probably five years late on my fluid intelligence curve. And I said, okay, what is my crystallized intelligence curve? I'm an academic and I'm an idea guy. I'm a, I'm a social scientist.

• 37:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 37:52Arthur Brooks?

  Right, speak and teach. Right, speak and teach.

• 37:54Rich Roll?

  So I'm going to stick it to you a little bit here.

• 37:56Arthur Brooks?

  Got it.

• 37:57Rich Roll?

  Because what I see is a guy who has a lot of self-awareness, who understood that his life in the think tank world, inside the Beltway and all of that had kind of run its course and was sort of providing diminishing returns to your well-being, et cetera. You make this pivot, you become a professor as a social scientist, you got interested in, in this particular subject matter, you write this book, but the book's an instant number one New York Times bestseller. It seems like, and I'm sure this wasn't your lived experience, but it seems like you went from public intellectual to happiness guru almost overnight. And ever since, have you not been on some version of the hedonic treadmill, going from

• 38:42Rich Roll?

  speaking engagement to speaking engagement to podcasts to, you were just in Half Moon Bay, it was the Atlantic Happiness Conference that you were hosting and you're publishing all these articles on the Atlantic and you're on the news and you know, you're on all the shows and all that kind of stuff. Like, are you not rushing around chasing some kind of validation in this like second or third act of your life? And I, no judgment, like, listen, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm like, you know, I mean, we'll get to that, but like, you know, I, I'm just interested in how, even if you were to disagree with me, how do you know the difference?

• 39:17Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, I know, obviously you've been talking to my wife.

• 39:19Rich Roll?

  Just pure observation.

• 39:21Arthur Brooks?

  No, that's, it's, it's, it's ironic.

• 39:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 39:24Arthur Brooks?

  You know, it's ironic that I, you know, I talk about the, the success addiction and how to break it such that you can get on your second curve, which requires... Clarity and humility.

• 39:34Rich Roll?

  And just by dint of talking about that a lot, you've fallen back into it.

• 39:38Arthur Brooks?

  For sure, for sure. I mean, it's like those experiments in the 1950s of primates where they could self-administer cocaine and within six hours, they were sitting in front of the lever, hitting it until they died. I mean, I'm a cocaine monkey. I mean, I'm hungry to talk about this, to spread these ideas, to be sure, but I gotta be careful because I can actually turn this right back into something else. Now, it's a different kind of work. It's not a fluid intelligence work because writing, speaking, and teaching is synthesizing ideas.

• 40:03Rich Roll?

  And it is a, you are mentoring the world by passing on this very valuable message to people, but it's about your ego's relationship.

• 40:13Arthur Brooks?

  For sure. Absolutely. I mean, it's absolutely astute observation, a fair one of that. I mean, it's when you have, when you strike while the iron is hot and I'm doing something that, that is associated with the excellence of the fluid intelligence curve in a younger man, for sure. And, and so I have to ask myself, where does this lead? Does this lead to ever bigger and greater? Does this lead to something? And, and as soon as I start thinking that, at least have the presence of mind to say, no, this is a temporary phenomenon. You're spreading these particular ideas, but this is not forever.

• 40:44Rich Roll?

  And keep telling yourself that.

• 40:45Arthur Brooks?

  While I'm lashing myself to the mast, I'm on this popular podcast telling you. But, but I have to be careful because I am, I am, I'm a dopamine guy. I really am. Aren't we all? I mean, we're built for this.

• 40:57Rich Roll?

  I mean, 100% I am. And it's like, we're two guys in our mid to late 50s who, on some level, you know, one thing we share is that we're, we're both hitting a certain kind of stride, right, in our lives. And I came to this very late and I feel like I finally found this thing that like I'm good at, that people seem to enjoy and I want to make hay while I can. And so I'm gonna sit in that, you know, that, that denial mode of I don't need to recognize my declining fluid intelligence, but part of what I get to do here is synthesize information and share other people's wisdom and pass that

• 41:37Rich Roll?

  along. So there is a kind of teaching, kind of advisory mentorship piece to all of it. But there's also a big ego piece, like how many people are watching and listening and like, how big can I make this? And will this lead to something else? And, you know, all of that kind of stuff, which is really, it's, it's, it's dangerous and it's intoxicating. And when you told the story in the book about Woman, the Wall Street executive, who was very successful and said, "Yeah, but maybe I'd rather be special than happy." And I was like, that was like a gut punch, because I've entertained that. Like, I'm a pretty happy guy, but I go through periods of being exhausted and burned out

• 42:17Rich Roll?

  and stressed and somewhat unhappy and thinking, "Yeah, but I get to do this thing and I feel really special doing it."

• 42:24Arthur Brooks?

  Totally, totally. And that hits the same circuits that let you up. Like, I haven't had a drink in 19 years. This is like having a drink. It hits the same circuits.

• 42:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's the same neurochemistry.

• 42:35Arthur Brooks?

  Sure, sure. Cross addictions exist all over the place. And there's a reason that you have to be, especially if you have monkeyed up your dopamine with substances or behaviors at a previous point in your life, you have to be especially adroit, you have to be awake to these types of behaviors. And at very least, to be metacognitive about them, to understand exactly what's going on. At least, look, Rich, you just told me you're doing it. You're not accidentally doing it. Somebody's discovering this, you have the self-awareness to do this because you have recovered from something, being in the grips of that.

• 43:10Rich Roll?

  Right, but as they would say in 12-step, self-awareness will avail you nothing. I can call myself out, but if I don't alter my behavior...

• 43:18Arthur Brooks?

  Correct, correct. And my guess is that you do alter your behavior, but the question is whether or not, you're working in a liquor store.

• 43:26Arthur Brooks?

  And so there is constant temptation and there is a little bit of backsliding, but we have to take care of ourselves. There's a balance. I want to serve people, I want to lift people up. My mission, with my crystallized intelligence, is I am going for the rest of my life to lift people up and bring them together in bonds of happiness and love using my ideas. That's what I'm going to do. And when there's a ton of attention on that... It's risky. It really is risky, but I can't, and you can't.

• 43:56Rich Roll?

  But the valence of that message, like the depth and the resonance of that message, is directly correlated to the extent to which you are walking that talk. So the minute that you're out of balance with it, that message is not going to land.

• 44:11Arthur Brooks?

  It's weakened, absolutely. And so I have to be very careful with that. I have to have an exit strategy from this particular point. This doesn't lead to lead to something else, to something else, and then suddenly, you know what? Then I'll be happy. Then I'll be happy. I have to make sure I'm not fooling myself.

• 44:27Rich Roll?

  The new thing, you know, that's always right around the corner.

• 44:30Arthur Brooks?

  Exactly right.

• 44:31Rich Roll?

  To satisfy that thing. Well, you sat at the foot of a guru in India, who declared that your wife was your guru. So what, does your wife keep you in check with this?

• 44:39Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, for sure.

• 44:40Rich Roll?

  Or she's got the clarity to say, hey, man.

• 44:43Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, no, she understands. Absolutely. Absolutely.

• 44:45Rich Roll?

  Sure, Miami was great.

• 44:47Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 44:49Arthur Brooks?

  I was at Rich's podcast. I talked to her before I started. She says, well, enjoy that. You know, enjoy that, but come home. And that's really important. Because left unmediated, it can be a really dangerous thing. You can, you know, it's really, I mean, somebody, and you're not the first person to recognize the irony that I'm talking about, be careful with your ambition, because it's as addictive as any drug. And then being very ambitious about the message of talking about tempering your ambitions.

• 45:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 45:17Arthur Brooks?

  This is the kind of the nested structure of actually how these things work.

• 45:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the latticework of that is kind of so beautifully constructed, right? That if you're out of synchronicity with it, it'll just fracture.

• 45:28Arthur Brooks?

  Wheels inside wheels, man. And so, yeah, so my wife Esther is truly my guru and has, it's time for me to come home. And we have a time limit. By the middle of June, this era will have passed. This epoch will have passed.

• 45:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, all right. Well, I'm going to put it in my calendar and call you on that day.

• 45:46Rich Roll?

  All right, so one of the things that I appreciate about the work that you do is that it's rooted in science, you're a social scientist, but as you have sort of written about repeatedly, social science is very good at kind of pointing out these problems, but not always so great at the practical kind of off-ramp or on-ramp to altering your behavior patterns. So we can say, "Look, you gotta get off the hedonic treadmill, you've gotta let go of your attachment to your fluid intelligence," all of these things, but they're, those are very ephemeral notions. So let's root this in practicalities with maybe first some thoughts on like, what would make somebody happy? What is happiness?

• 46:29Rich Roll?

  How do we make this transition gracefully so that we can actually follow that curve of being even happier? Like, that arc continues to go upward, right, through our 60s and our 70s, if we can keep our health intact, to continually get more happier as we age.

• 46:49Arthur Brooks?

  Right. And the way to understand that is, to begin with, what's the hole in our souls that we're trying to fill with the success that we're pursuing in our fluid intelligence curve? It virtually always has to do with love. And why? Because we can get more validation, we can get more satisfaction early on by sacrificing the non-special love relationships and by being successful. I mean, that's how people behave. And so what do we need if we're fearful of what it would mean to not be successful? We have to remedy that fear by surrounding it with love. Fear and love are opposites. They're cognitive and philosophical opposites. Love and hatred are not opposites. Hatred is downstream from fear. When we're fearful of being unsuccessful, the remedy to that is more love. And love

• 47:33Arthur Brooks?

  only comes from human beings. So what you find is that the Happiness 401(k) Plan... That you know what you need to invest in all along the way, which has that you know, the great thing about it is a 401k plan of money means you have to sacrifice now. You don't have to sacrifice now. You actually enjoy now and into the future is in the categories of faith, family, friendship, and work that serves other people. The more that we invest in those particular things, the more that we can actually step away from these hyper validating, but ultimately unsatisfactory accomplishments on the fluid intelligence curve. And so one of the things that I talk about is how do you start in your spiritual walk when you're 45 years old and you're a declared agnostic and think it's all woo woo and nonsense?

• 48:16Arthur Brooks?

  How do you reestablish a relationship with your spouse and kids when that has become cordial at best? How do you kick a success addiction that is deeply rooted in the neuromodulator? That's just keeping you chained to that sense of success? How do you break those shackles? And so these are the things that we actually talk about. That's what I talk about in the book. It's reestablishing love relationships and replacing the substitutes for love that will never truly satisfy you.

• 48:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's beautifully put. The dilemma, of course, being for the striver who has, you know, not been there for their kids and really hasn't been super present for their partner, has shunned any relationship with faith and has lost touch with most of his or her friends because of that allegiance to the career track, becomes a sticky wicket to undo. And you go through kind of a series of, you know, the common things that come up like, I don't even know how to do that, or you know, I would feel it would be embarrassing for me to call this friend that I haven't spoken to in 20 years. And I've been going through a version of this, like I noticed that, you know, I'm raising kids, I'm working really hard. It's like, I don't have time for much else and I miss my friends.

• 49:27Rich Roll?

  And I realized like, that's work and that takes like an intentionality and carving time out and I'm trying, you know, and I don't always do such a great job, but I really started to recognize in the last couple of years, like I miss my friends and I, not only do I want them in my life, like I need them and if I don't. Sort of water that garden, it's gonna be really difficult. It just gets harder and harder.

• 49:50Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah, there's a movement. I mean, given the fact that traditionally, the loneliest people in America are 60-year-old men, right? 60-year-old men. It's like the, um, not 60-year-old women. It turns out that 60-year-old women tend to be pretty good because

• 50:03Rich Roll?

  Women are much better at this.

• 50:04Arthur Brooks?

  At friendship. They're better at friendship because they put the time in on friendship, you know? And they, that's why women, for example, they recover six months after being widowed, typically to their old level of happiness, where men never do. I told my wife that, and she's like, huh.

• 50:19Rich Roll?

  Noted. Good to know.

• 50:21Arthur Brooks?

  The Widow Brooks, you know? It's like, I guess it'll be okay, but it's, so, and, and so what do they do? There's, in a couple of countries, there's this thing called the men's sheds movement. And what it is, is that men who retire, 65 or 70 years old, they retire, and their wives drop them off to, in these, like, sheds where they do woodworking in parallel with other guys.

• 50:39Rich Roll?

  You talk about like, it's the parallel play date that your little kids do. It's so infantile. It's hilarious.

• 50:44Arthur Brooks?

  Because they don't look at each other. So the guys aren't looking at each other. They're making a birdhouse together or something, you know? It's, it's sad. You don't, you don't want to be dropped off in a shed, you know, to make a, to make a birdhouse with a stranger because you don't know how to make friends. It's like you're completely incompetent.

• 51:00Rich Roll?

  Or you're too afraid to call your friend that you haven't seen in a long time.

• 51:03Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. And so the key is, is actually you, so one of the things that I recommend is that the four are, you know, faith, family, friends, and work, but strivers over-index on work and under-index on the other three. So the key is to, right now, start making a proper investment in the first three. So everybody should be reading, I, I don't mean a traditional religious faith necessarily. I mean, you need to read some wisdom literature and engage in something that is transcendent every single day.

• 51:30Rich Roll?

  Right, as a practice.

• 51:31Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, everything, that means 15 to 30 minutes of reading something, the Stoic philosophers, or literally studying the theory of the work of Johann Sebastian Bach, or walking in meditation, with a walking meditation in the forest, whatever that is for you, or rediscovering the faith of your youth, whatever it happens, or at least looking at that. The second is family and friends. You should be sending, we all should be sending a text or email in each one of those categories every single day. How are you? How did that thing turn out? You know, I was just thinking about you today, whatever it happens to be, just to touch, just touch, touch, touch. And then start, you can grow it from there. But when these relationships are fallow, they, they're very difficult to, especially when it's like, hey, I just retired.

• 52:16Arthur Brooks?

  Want to be friends again? It doesn't work that way.

• 52:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 52:19Arthur Brooks?

  We need to-

• 52:19Rich Roll?

  And family is insufficient on its own, or just turning to your spouse.

• 52:23Arthur Brooks?

  Your immediate family, for sure. Yeah, I mean, one of the things that you find is that six-year-old men often will, they'll, strivers in particular, will retire. And they, you know, they've got enough money, for example, and they'll just want to hang out with their spouse all day long. Their spouse is like, "I got a life, man. I got a life." And, and they don't want that. And that's intensely lonely, because they actually don't have that close a relationship with their spouse, but it's the, the friend at hand. And, and if you don't actually create these roots, it's interesting, because the metaphor that I like to think of is the, the aspen tree, which looks stately and solid and solitary. You know, it's the striver. It's like, you know, sometimes I'm lonely, but you can count on me, you can take shade under me. And this, the aspen tree is actually a great metaphor for the way that we should be living,

• 53:07Arthur Brooks?

  because it's one single root system. All aspen trees in a particular grove are one plant. The largest living organism in the world is called pando. It's a, it's a 106-acre aspen stand in Utah. It's six million kilograms of wood. And that's really who we are. If you're thinking about, you know, the, the height of your tree and the, you know, the gloriousness of your leaves, you're getting it wrong. The health of your tree is actually the health of the next tree. You know, you need to be cultivating your root system, because your life is that next tree. And you need to be, to see yourself in your children, to see yourself in your friends. The Buddhists say that individuality is an illusion. That is literally an illusion, that Rich and Arthur are different guys. That's how the Buddhists see it.

• 53:52Arthur Brooks?

  That's a very sophisticated philosophy. But it's easy to understand somewhat conceptually, and that's what we need to attain.

• 53:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and that really underscores the difference between east and west. I mean, the idea that, you know, there is no such thing as separateness versus the rugged individualism of the West that breeds the striver to build these peons to his ego and to, you know, hearken to the world that he is the self-made man. Like, it's difficult for that, you know, identity construct to then say, yes, I'm a root system, you know, tied to everything else. You have to deprogram all of that to get back to that essential truth.

• 54:31Arthur Brooks?

  For sure. And it's interesting, you know, I have, since doing this work, I've cultivated friendships. I have a very close friend in Atlanta, somebody that, we talk about things that matter. We text each other about things that matter. What's that? No sheds, no birdhouses. I have a friend here in San Francisco, here in California, that I talk to two times a week on the telephone. I mean, he's 80, I'm 58. I learned a lot from him. I love him. I love him. He's just such an interesting person, but we have a real friendship. This is the key, the key to remember is when you're thinking about the people around you, ask yourself, put them in a category. I make my students do this at Harvard, you know, because my students are MBA students. They're big achievers, big strivers. I make them take all of, they take, take your 20 closest friends and put them on a piece of paper and put the, a line down the piece of paper and put, in one column, real, and

• 55:16Arthur Brooks?

  the other column, deal. And put your friends in one of those two, in one of those two groups.

• 55:22Rich Roll?

  And it was your kid that came up with that idea, right?

• 55:24Arthur Brooks?

  It was my kid, yeah, it was my kid.

• 55:26Rich Roll?

  Real friends or deal friends?

• 55:27Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, I was talking to a guy on the phone and, and it was, he was, I was actually delaying a fishing trip because I was talking to a guy on the phone. And, you know, a long time, a little, a long conversation about, "A deal, we're doing a deal." And afterward, he said, "Who's that, Dad?" He was 11. And he said, "Who's that, Dad?" I said, "It was a friend." He said, "Really? Is it a real friend or a deal friend?"

• 55:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:48Arthur Brooks?

  Clever boy.

• 55:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. That's gold. That's a good one.

• 55:51Arthur Brooks?

  It's a good one. Now, that boy now is a sniper in the US Marine Corps.

• 55:54Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 55:55Arthur Brooks?

  Six foot five, 4.3% body fat.

• 56:00Rich Roll?

  Fluid intelligence intact.

• 56:03Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's fluid intelligence, tattoos, large explosions, and love for America.

• 56:08Rich Roll?

  Wow, okay.

• 56:11Rich Roll?

  Obviously, the driving principle here is to extend your happiness later in life. But like, explain to me how you think about happiness. Like, what is that concept?

• 56:22Arthur Brooks?

  What is happiness?

• 56:22Rich Roll?

  How do you define happiness?

• 56:24Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 56:24Rich Roll?

  Because there are so many different ideas around how to think about this.

• 56:27Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, so happiness gets people's attention because they know they want it. But then when they think about it, they don't know what it is. And so I ask my students on the first day of class. And look, it's a hard class to get into. There's a lot of competition to get in the class. So I say, "Look, you're in this class. You bid your points." Because this is a point system for getting elected at Harvard Business School. It's a market. And I say, "So you must know what it is, right? What is it?" And they'll go around and say, "It's the feeling I get when I remember..."

• 56:52Arthur Brooks?

  Wrong. Happiness is not a feeling, any more than the smell of the turkey is your Thanksgiving dinner. That's evidence of your Thanksgiving dinner. Your feeling is evidence of it. If we look at the happiest people and the unhappiest people, the happiest people have in common three macronutrients. Like, you and I are interested in this stuff. If I say, "What is the Thanksgiving dinner?", you're going to say, because you're a guy who does this stuff, "It's protein, carbohydrates, and fat." That's what your Thanksgiving dinner is. Literally, your Thanksgiving dinner is proteins, carbohydrates, and fats. You're making your macros or not if you're going to be healthy. Happiness has three macronutrients: enjoyment, satisfaction, and purpose, which you need in balance and abundance. And if you don't have all those three, you're not going to be a happy person.

• 57:36Arthur Brooks?

  So when I talk to somebody who says, "I'm just..." And you know, when you're a happiness specialist, people talk to you like you're a psychiatrist. And so I'll talk to very powerful people who say, "Frankly, I'm just not happy." I will look at their macronutrient profile in the same way that if you said, "Ah, my digestion's all goofed up." Well, probably you're not eating, you're not getting the right macros. And ordinarily, what I'll find with strivers is that they're very high in stoic work ethic to get a whole lot of long-term meaning, and they're very low in enjoyment. Very low in enjoyment, what I find. If I'm talking to undergraduate students, they're very high in enjoyment. On the basis of a high dose of pleasure, they're sort of epicurean in their outlook, and they're very low in meaning. They're not getting a whole lot of meaning.

• 58:20Arthur Brooks?

  Or if they're real success junkies, they're trying to get as much satisfaction as they can, and it's elusive because they're on the treadmill. You know, it's like, work hard, get the hit, you know, okay, well, that was good for a week. The new car smell lasts for like a week, right? You know, people always say, you know, it's the California phenomenon. There's a lot of research on this about how long you'll be satisfied if you move to California. And the answer is the sunshine will give you satisfaction for six months, but the taxes are forever. You know, careful with, I mean, sorry, I'm not trying to hurt you, Rich.

• 58:51Rich Roll?

  I've made my peace with that, but go ahead.

• 58:53Arthur Brooks?

  It is a nice place. So, so the point is that the balance that you need in the macronutrient profile of happiness is really the best way to diagnostically understand how happy you are. That's where I actually start. That's the definition. Satisfaction, enjoyment, plus meaning and purpose. And they all have a big science behind them.

• 59:11Rich Roll?

  Right. So enjoyment is sort of pleasure with this elevated sensibility.

• 59:18Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, plus, it's basically pleasure enjoyed in communion. So you get pleasure from eating the turkey at Thanksgiving dinner. You get enjoyment from eating it and making a memory of doing it with people that you actually love, such that you can actually get happiness from it for a long time afterward.

• 59:38Rich Roll?

  Right. Satisfaction, that's, you know, kind of a striver thing, right? Like, we, we get that sense of satisfaction in the pursuit of something ambitious.

• 59:48Arthur Brooks?

  That's a goal met, the joy of a reward, but which is very elusive, as Mick Jagger reminds us, that you can't get no satisfaction, but you can hack it. You can actually hack it if you understand and go against, you can get enduring or at least lasting satisfaction if you go against your nature, which is a really interesting body of literature, because it reminds us again that Mother Nature doesn't care for happy. Mother Nature wants to fool us again and again and again and again to hit the lever because it makes us more genetically fit. It helps us to pass on our genes by having more money, more power, more honor, than the troglodyte in the next cave who has fewer animal skins. But we think that that car will bring us lasting satisfaction. You have to hack that matrix and you can get lasting satisfaction.

• 1:00:32Rich Roll?

  The purpose piece is a little bit more complicated and elusive, though.

• 1:00:37Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. Purpose piece is, in a way, the most beautiful and one that you're, I know you're well aware of. You know, listen to this podcast and you learn a lot very quickly. It takes about five episodes before you put together your biography, which is one of struggle and pain and sacrifice because of a lot of things that happened to you in your life. But who you are as a man has everything to do with what you've suffered. It's part of who you are as a person. You know, not being a mental health professional, but being a listener to the show and a specialist in this area, I would say that, that meaning and purpose for you are simply intertwined with the suffering that you've had with substance abuse, for example, with the, the relationships that suffered as a result of that. And that's the cosmic truth of meaning.

• 1:01:22Arthur Brooks?

  And one that's really elusive for all the young people today who are psychological hedonists. They're, they're, they're spending all their energy and time trying to avoid unhappiness. What that does is that that, when you avoid pain, you're avoiding meaning. What you're avoiding, learning what your purpose is through resiliency, what you're capable of and the lessons you're supposed to learn. And you're avoiding, to avoid your unhappiness is to avoid your happiness, which is that you, we need pain. We need sacrifice.

• 1:01:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's so true and so convoluted to understand, but it's absolutely essential. And I think that's a very accurate notion of, of how I think about this because my satisfaction and my purpose have been sort of gilded out of unhappiness and suffering and toil, but a search for meaning within that. And then an act of, of, of service in trying to return what I've learned along the way. And so it's not an epicurean happiness. I mean, it's fun to talk to you and we'll have a couple of laughs and all of that, but it's really more of a meaning-driven thing. And so I think of happiness as being a byproduct of pursuing meaning, of being of service,

• 1:02:31Rich Roll?

  of trying to align my actions with my values. Because happiness isn't something that you can grab. It's only the result of these other endeavors and it's fleeting at best. So it's best not to really even think about happiness or be in its pursuit because I feel like it's a trap.

• 1:02:50Arthur Brooks?

  Well, the pursuit is of its macronutrients to make sure that you are doing, you have a proper, you have proper hygiene, that you have the right habits. Think about the habits as opposed to the happiness itself. So, the best way for people to get happier immediately is to think in sort of three steps. The first is do the work. And to do the work, you need self-knowledge, you need understanding. And maybe that comes from your religious practice, maybe that comes from, you know, reading a happiness book about the science of happiness, maybe that comes from sitting at your grandmother's knee and writing down everything she says for a week. Whatever it is, do the work. You know, if you said, "Hey, man, I wish I knew more calculus," I'd say, "Buy a book."

• 1:03:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:26Arthur Brooks?

  I would say, "Do the work." Don't wish you knew more math, do the work. The second is to practice it in your life. You know, people, if you can't just read a book about golf and become a better golfer, you actually have to golf. You have to learn, and then you have to golf. And happiness is a hands-on business by practicing the habits of happiness, faith, family, friends, and work, loving other people intensively, proposively. And then the last is really the most important, which is you've got to share it. You have to teach others. You know, what I'm trying to do is I'm trying to create a happiness movement of a nation of happiness professors. I want us to hold each other accountable for this. I mean, it's so valuable to me that you notice the irony of what I'm actually doing, which is not good for my happiness hygiene and talking about happiness. That's what brothers are supposed to do for each other.

• 1:04:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:04:08Arthur Brooks?

  I mean, and when we hold each other accountable, we give each other suggestions. When we actually teach, this is the ultimate act of metacognition, where you're not being managed by anything. You're managing it by making it fully human, by observing it, by putting it into the prefrontal cortex of your big, wonderful, human brain. One, two, three. Understand, practice, share. That's the secret.

• 1:04:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Rich Roll?

  The sharing piece is so powerful. I mean, I just, as you're explaining that, I'm just thinking of Chip, you know, down in Baja with his modern wisdom, modern elder.

• 1:04:46Arthur Brooks?

  Modern Elder Academy.

• 1:04:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Modern Elder Academy, where he's teaching, you know, this elder wisdom and the experience that he had at Airbnb, where he got to, you know, practice that crystallized intelligence to be of service to these young founders. And it's confusing. I said to him, I said, Why isn't that experience that you had at Airbnb a case study Harvard Business School case study that should be taught? Like, why doesn't every company have their version of that?

• 1:05:16Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 1:05:17Rich Roll?

  That business school students are studying and understanding the value of?

• 1:05:20Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, no, for sure. And one of the things that Chip Conley is, I mean, I think very highly of Chip Conley. He has magnificently transformed his own career into one that actually is with crystallized intelligence, passing on these ideas to other people and lifting them up.

• 1:05:34Rich Roll?

  In such a beautiful way. And I feel like he, he isn't on the hedonic treadmill. And his ego is exactly where it's meant to be right now. Like, he has such a healthy relationship with what he does. And he's so, he's so generous of heart and spirit.

• 1:05:51Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:52Rich Roll?

  In that, I mean, you feel it in his presence.

• 1:05:54Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that he's, as a practical matter, that he points out to all of us, and some of the, one of the things that I'm at the Harvard Business School that I'm promoting as much as I possibly can, is trying to, see, one of the problems in, in America, in our business climate today, is it's too heavily loaded on fluid intelligence. How is it that social media and the tech industry have gone from the pinnacle of respect for, in capitalism, to near the bottom in 15 years? Where people are worried that social media is creating a harmful product, or, or has a harmful culture, or is anti-competitive, or whatever it happens to be. It has everything to do with the fact that there's unforced errors across these business models and the way that these things are working. Like, I have tons of respect for these people. These are my friends. They're

• 1:06:35Arthur Brooks?

  your friends, too. But the truth is, there's not enough old people in this process. There's too much fluid intelligence. There's not enough crystallized intelligence. My view is that, and Chip gave me this idea, quite frankly, that every product, marketing, and team, and C-suite of every company in America needs more people over 70. You know, I was saying, I was gonna tell this story when I was lecturing, I was giving a talk at a tech company in the Valley. And they were talking about, somebody asked me about diversity, which is people of color and women who are coding and doing engineering work. And it's a diversity problem for sure. And I talked about that. But then I said, speaking of diversity, how many old people work here? Like, I mean, over 30?

• 1:07:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:17Arthur Brooks?

  That's the problem.

• 1:07:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And I pointed this out to Chip, though, and I'm interested in your thoughts on this. This is certainly true in startup culture. But if you're at a Fortune 500 company or some giant legacy conglomerate, you know, DuPont or Coca-Cola or something like that, I would suspect that the C-suites are filled with septuagenarians who are well past their fluid intelligence curve, who are sticking around too long. And in that case, you need the younger person to hold those people accountable.

• 1:07:50Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Rich Roll?

  Because that's equally broken.

• 1:07:52Arthur Brooks?

  We need diversity. And that's why diversity is really important. But the kind of diversity that we really lack in America today is age diversity.

• 1:07:58Rich Roll?

  Age diversity.

• 1:07:59Arthur Brooks?

  We need, and it's weird, because we have this system for, you know, your kids are going through grades in school where they stay with the same age over and over and over again. And that lack of diversity, that lack of intergenerational diversity, but even among students who are four, five, and six years apart who can teach each other, that's a real debility. That's a big weakness that we have in our society today. And so we have a tendency to hang out with people more or less our age, you know, hang out with a couple more or less your age. And I've made a conscious effort to not do that. I have friends who are younger than me, and I have friends who are a couple of decades or 30 years younger than me, and I have friends who are 30 years older than me. Because it's way more interesting and fun, among other things. But also, I've learned more.

• 1:08:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. When you're teaching this class at Harvard Business School, well, there's, let me say this. So in recovery, you know, there's this understanding, like, you can't will somebody else to get sober. Like, they have to have their own, you know, intrinsic willingness or receptivity. And everybody, it's a timing thing. Like, you have to be ready to do the work to get sober.

• 1:09:02Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 1:09:02Rich Roll?

  Not everybody is. When you're kind of espousing the virtues of this way of thinking and approaching your life to these young strivers, what is the receptivity level? Like, does it land for them? Or what is your sense of how it's being processed by people who are at the very beginning of venturing out into the world and, you know, in their attempt to conquer it?

• 1:09:24Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. Well, one of the things that I tell them is, it's useful to them to have a crystal ball. And you know, if I can, if I can tell you what's gonna happen to you, right now, they're very interested in it. You know, I say, you're here, in 20 years, you're gonna see this. I want you to remember this. That's interesting to people. This is a thing that's gonna happen to you. Write it out. Write it down. Commit it to memory. And you're gonna see this thing. When it happens to you, you're not gonna be surprised. And as a result of it, you're not gonna make the following mistake. They're intensely interested in what that's all about. The second is they're extremely interested in their parents. So my students have parents that are my age. I mean, my kids are in their twenties. And, and, and when I, when I talk to, you know, people who are in their twenties, I'm the, I'm the age of their parents. They're,

• 1:10:09Arthur Brooks?

  I'm talking to them about people like you and me, and a lot of their dads and moms are intensely unhappy, and they understand for the first time why it is. And they, they care about their parents. And so a lot of them, what they wind up doing is that, I've noticed that there'll be a Zoom link on my, for my classes, for people who have, you know, coronavirus or something, they can't go to class. And, and, and there'll, there'll be parents on the Zoom link.

• 1:10:33Rich Roll?

  Unofficially auditing.

• 1:10:35Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, kind of. I know. And then a bunch of times, I'll see, you know, I'll be in this, right, me and my students are, I have sections of 90, I have two sections of 90. And as the semester goes on, I noticed that there's like people my age in the back of the class. And afterward, I'll say, it's my dad.

• 1:10:54Rich Roll?

  That's pretty good. Well, that's a good indicator, you know, you're on to something. One of the techniques for this, you mentioned, you know, Stoic philosophy, et cetera, but you talk in the book about, I can't remember what sort of faith denomination it was. I think these ascetic monks who would do this version of exposure therapy where they would walk amongst, you know, rotting corpses to like have this, you know, to inject yourself with a sense of impermanence and, and, you know, a connectivity to your own mortality.

• 1:11:26Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. Exposure therapy to the source of your fear. Most people that I talk to, only 20% of Americans are, are, are morbidly afraid of death. That's called thanatophobia. And it's in the, it's in the DSM five manual. But only 20%, I mean, none of us is like, oh, hooray, death. But, but we're not really afraid, you and I are not afraid of death. But we almost all have our own death fear. So if you're afraid of failure, that's your death fear. If you're afraid of irrelevance or being forgotten, that's your death fear. And, and, and one of the things that I ask my students or anybody to do is to figure out what your death fear is. What is the, what is your concept of your life that you're afraid to lose? That's, that's your death. Anybody who says, by the way, my work is my life, professional failure is your death fear.

• 1:12:10Arthur Brooks?

  And then the, the way to cope with that, because you can't break through. You can't get to the second curve. You can't actually find your bliss until you conquer your fear, because that stands in the way of your love. That stands in the way of the real life in your life. So I, the, the way that I do this has been very helpful to me. And now, now I do it with my students, particularly with fear of failure, because my MBA students at Harvard are ultra achievers with very little experience of failure. And, and they're, they're, they're self-objectifiers, a lot of them, because they consider themselves to be success monsters, success machines, homo economicus. Like, of course I was good A's. Of course I get into the best schools. Of course, because I'm the special one.

• 1:12:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:12:49Arthur Brooks?

  And, and some of that comes from their parents, but a lot of it is internally generated. So the way that the, the meditation on death works that can be, that can be adapted to our own particular death fear is called, it's called the Maranasati meditation of the Theravada Buddhist monks. If you go to a monastery in Thailand or Vietnam, you'll notice that in a lot of monasteries, they'll have photographs of corpses in, in various states of decay. And, and the monks will stand in front of them and say, that is me. And they'll walk to the next one and say, that is me. And it's just like horrible until you realize it's exposure therapy. You can't, you can't be fully alive when you're afraid of not being alive. It just doesn't make sense. And yet, yet the, the nature of our brain is to, to block out this cognitive dissonance.

• 1:13:32Arthur Brooks?

  You know, the, the mortality paradox is that we know we're going to die, but we can't conceive of non-existence. And that intense discomfort makes us terrified. So this, it turns out that that meditation, that nine-part meditation, if people Google it, the Maranasati meditation will come up. And if you do that, you will be free. But if you do that in the case of your fear, you will be free as well. So I have a nine-part fear of failure meditation that I ask my students to contemplate. It's one of the exercises. Every lecture ends with an exercise, much of it based in theological or philosophical tradition. And it's like, I'm not doing well in class. It starts easy, right? And then it gets a little bit harder.

• 1:14:15Arthur Brooks?

  My friends from college seem to be doing better than me and getting better jobs than me. And then, and then a little bit later, it's like, I think my parents feel sorry for me. And sometimes the students will weep at this point because the concept, you know, confronting that terror of what is effectively their own death. But they will be free when they do that because you can't, it can't hurt them anymore when it becomes ordinary. The phantasm, when it's exposed to light, evaporates.

• 1:14:45Rich Roll?

  And then the ultimate being sort of, yes, you're gonna die. And this attachment to relevance or being remembered in a certain way has to go, right? So, nobody's gonna remember you, nobody's gonna care. Like, the more that you can just kind of acclimate to that notion and be comfortable with it, there is a freedom. Like, in the example of the gentleman sitting behind you on the plane. Like, if he had just embraced the fact that his time was up and that's, this is the nature of the way life is, he could have found some peace and comfort with that.

• 1:15:16Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, I mean, your great-grandchildren will not know your name. They won't know your name. I mean, if you can say, how many, I mean, you have eight.

• 1:15:22Rich Roll?

  And that's nothing.

• 1:15:22Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, you have eight great-grandparents. How many can you name?

• 1:15:26Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God. I don't know. Two? Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:15:29Arthur Brooks?

  It's crazy. So there's six that are gone. Poof. And it's funny because you get evidence of this as you get older. It's one of the consolations of age is actually experiencing, is actually having this exposure. You know, I ran this important think tank in DC for almost 11 years. I've been gone for three years. I go back, people don't have a slight idea who I am. Poof. That's very DC.

• 1:15:49Rich Roll?

  And are you able to gracefully kind of like laugh and you know, smile to yourself?

• 1:15:54Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it helps that I've got a new thing and I've got a new bag, right? But, but yeah, I mean, it's part of that is the exposure that comes from actually having done this, having done this work. This was work I did and then published. I mean, I actually did the work on this such that, and I'm much more comfortable with my weaknesses. I'm much more comfortable with my professional and prestige mortality than I was in the past. I can, I can laugh at things that scared me before.

• 1:16:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:22Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, I mean, it's not perfect. I mean, I have, I wake up in the middle of the night sometimes, but it's better. I mean, I'm happier. Here's, I mean, the acid test is basically this. When I, when I stepped down from that job in the middle of 2019, my happiness on a one to seven scale, self evaluated, which is the best kind of way to do it, where one is the unhappiest person you've ever met, and seven is the happiest person you've ever met. That number was three and now it's 4.8.

• 1:16:45Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's very specific.

• 1:16:47Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, well, I'm a, I'm a, I'm a con artist, you know, I'm a quantitative guy. But, but for me, that's really meaningful. I keep very careful data on, on not just the macronutrients of my happiness, but the micronutrients that feed into it as well. All of the elements that I need to track, I'm tracking very carefully all the time, such that I can make a strategic plan for my life. And it's all been, it's all been going up. It's all been going up.

• 1:17:10Rich Roll?

  And do you do that specifically with respect to the numerator denominator math that you talk about where needs and wants have to be correlated in a healthy ratio?

• 1:17:21Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, haves and wants. So this is, this is how you hack the satisfaction rate matrix. So the problem is not that you can't get no satisfaction, as Mick Jagger sings. The problem is you can't keep no satisfaction. The real problem is you get it and then it goes. So it's your, you get, you get the high from cocaine or alcohol, for example, but it's gone immediately and you chase it. But if you never got it in the first place, it wouldn't be a problem. If you, you literally got no satisfaction, there would be no problem. But that you can't keep no satisfaction, that's the real problem. The way to think about it is, If you have a concept of your satisfaction in terms of what you have, you're in trouble. But if you understand a more accurate model, where your satisfaction is what you have divided by what you want, haves divided by wants,

• 1:18:06Arthur Brooks?

  then you need a haves management strategy, but more importantly, a wants management strategy. The secret to being more satisfied is not having more, it's wanting less. That's the secret.

• 1:18:15Rich Roll?

  Right. And I feel like culturally, that's not unrelated to the rise of minimalism and so many young people who are interested in living their lives differently than the way that we were brought up. Like, I think that there is, and I'm sure you see this in your stu- maybe not, because it's Harvard Business School, but so many young people are approaching their career tracks from a perspective of, you know, how is this going to be meaningful to me? Or what is the impact going to be of my involvement in this? Rather than, what's my starting salary? What's the raise going to be, et cetera?

• 1:18:49Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, no, I do see that, although I still see- I mean, we're all human. I mean, we all are chasing the Thomistic. You know, St. Thomas Aquinas is four idols. The four substitutes for God are money, power, pleasure, and fame. And you don't have to be theological even to understand that. What he was basically saying is, these are the things that distract you from your happiness, because they're instrumental to good things. There's nothing wrong with money. It's when you make it intrinsic that it'll be what you chase, and you never find your satisfaction. You wind up unhappy. So what you find is that there's a natural human tendency, based on our evolutionary biology, to chase these extrinsic goals, these instrumentalities, as if they were the secret to our own happiness, and then we can't quite figure it out.

• 1:19:32Arthur Brooks?

  So hacking the matrix means wanting less of that. It's okay if we get it. I mean, I play a game with my students called, "What's your idol?" And the way that "What's your idol?" works is I say, okay, you got- it's a very comprehensive taxonomy of, you know, your idols, which is money, power, pleasure, and honor, which is usually admiration or prestige. Sometimes it's fame. Some people actually want to be famous. They're, "Okay, don't tell me what your idol is. Tell me what it's not." So let's play. You want to play?

• 1:20:02Rich Roll?

  Sure.

• 1:20:02Arthur Brooks?

  Okay. Tell me of these four, money, power, pleasure, and fame. Which is the one that you care about the least and would kick away in two seconds?

• 1:20:10Rich Roll?

  Money, power, pleasure, fame? Is that what it is?

• 1:20:14Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:16Rich Roll?

  Probably pleasure.

• 1:20:17Arthur Brooks?

  You'd kick it away.

• 1:20:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:19Arthur Brooks?

  But you chased it for years.

• 1:20:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but I was, that was more of a running away.

• 1:20:24Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, it was actually escape, not pleasure. It was the, yeah, it wasn't, you weren't looking, you weren't running to pleasure, you were running away from pain.

• 1:20:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:30Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. So pleasure, okay, good, good. And tell me, what's next?

• 1:20:35Rich Roll?

  Money, power.

• 1:20:37Arthur Brooks?

  You got money and power and fame.

• 1:20:40Rich Roll?

  Uh, power can go.

• 1:20:42Arthur Brooks?

  Power, you don't care. No power over people. You probably, and part of the reason is because you don't.

• 1:20:46Rich Roll?

  Power might even be the first thing.

• 1:20:48Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, because you don't want anybody to have power over you.

• 1:20:50Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:20:50Arthur Brooks?

  That drives you crazy.

• 1:20:51Rich Roll?

  I don't see, I don't, I'm not like motivated by power.

• 1:20:54Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. Okay, you got two left.

• 1:20:56Rich Roll?

  So it's money.

• 1:20:57Arthur Brooks?

  And fame.

• 1:20:58Rich Roll?

  And fame. Um, fame would go.

• 1:21:01Arthur Brooks?

  I got your idol.

• 1:21:03Rich Roll?

  So the money, money's my idol.

• 1:21:05Arthur Brooks?

  Well, and again, you might be pretty.

• 1:21:07Rich Roll?

  But it's weird because I, I don't like, like this podcast makes money, but I didn't get into it for that. Like it's a byproduct of doing something meaningful to me, but I think maybe I'm thinking of it in that way because I've got four kids and I'm worried about making sure that they're taken care of and, and I've gone through financial hardship and I know what that feels like and I don't want to go back there.

• 1:21:28Arthur Brooks?

  Totally, yeah, totally. And again, there's nothing that's disreputable about that at all. This is absolutely human. The key thing is knowing yourself such that you're not making decisions that militate against your happiness on the basis of chasing your idol. That, that's how you can self-manage is understanding that that will wind up being your weak point. Now ordinarily, it's because there's a little bit of fear having to do with your past and you can never be quite secure enough when the people that you love are involved. The second is that money is a trophy for entrepreneurs. Money's a trophy. In other words, money is good because it represents the value the rest of the world places on you. So even if you don't care about boats and planes, you can still have that as an idol under these circumstances and you gotta watch that is what it comes down to. For me, I don't care about power.

• 1:22:12Arthur Brooks?

  I mean, running a think tank was hard because I, I don't want anybody to have power over me and I hate having power over others. I actually dislike power. I'm, I'm pretty libertarian in this way. It's like, don't tread on me kinda, right? Second is money. Money for me, money. You know, it's, it didn't have that much growing up, but you know, it's just, it's, it doesn't have any allure for me particularly. Now, things get a little bit uncomfortable. I like pleasure. I like it, right? But, okay, I'll give it up. I just found my idol. I want to be admired. I want admiration. I want the admiration of strangers. I mean, how stupid is that to want the admiration of strangers?

• 1:22:52Arthur Brooks?

  What could be less satisfying and more idiotic than that? And yet, and yet...

• 1:22:58Rich Roll?

  But that brain neurochemistry gets lit up when Anderson Cooper calls and says, "We need Dr. Brooks on tonight." "Yes, sir. I am available."

• 1:23:09Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, and it's funny because, you know, we understand how the neurobiology of that would be wired, right? And yet, you know, the whole idea that the reward would have been multiple mates and lots of offspring. I don't want that. I don't want that. No. I don't want that. I don't want a secret second family. I want, you know...

• 1:23:27Rich Roll?

  So what do you do with that self-understanding?

• 1:23:29Arthur Brooks?

  You make sure that you're not making decisions on that basis. So I will interrogate my decisions. So my decision to go on Anderson's show, I'll say, "Why?" And I'll interrogate myself. Now, fortunately, I have a partner, my beloved wife, who'll interrogate me with, you know, great acuity. She'll say, "Why do you want to do that? Why do you actually want to do that? Why did I want to do your show? Because I love your show and I've never been on it before. I always wanted to." That's actually meritorious. It's interesting to me. It's not because it's going to bring me this, the cosmic admiration that I seek. It actually gives me the intellectual enjoyment that is part of how I'm trying to live a good and happy life. I would actually take the time, even if we weren't airing this.

• 1:24:10Arthur Brooks?

  But that's kind of how I interrogate it, expose it to empirical scrutiny, and make a decision properly. I don't always make the proper decision, but at least I know my weakness.

• 1:24:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:20Arthur Brooks?

  That's power.

• 1:24:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool. Let's talk about the faith piece. We kind of kicked this off. You were sharing about your trips to India and your... Your Catholic faith, but this is a big piece here and it gets tricky. People don't like to talk about this stuff, makes them uncomfortable.

• 1:24:39Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 1:24:40Rich Roll?

  But, you know, if you look at the blue zones and where people live the longest and live the happiest, you know, faith is a big, big piece here.

• 1:24:48Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 1:24:48Rich Roll?

  And a lot of people have very unhealthy relationships with how they were reared in a certain faith. And it's, you know, whether it was traumatic or just they're not interested anymore. And then they live this secular life where they're in pursuit of the very things that we were just talking about. And now are faced with the prospect of, of being told like, you gotta figure this out.

• 1:25:09Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:10Rich Roll?

  It's tough, right?

• 1:25:11Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Rich Roll?

  But as the statistics interestingly bear out, and you talk about this in the book, like, there is this receptivity to a more transcendent way of approaching your life that kind of begins to bloom and blossom as we get older.

• 1:25:25Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, it's a real mystery and it was for the longest time because the belief was with the Enlightenment that faith and reason were naturally antagonistic and that science was going to crowd out faith entirely because faith was nothing more than a bunch of superstitious theories that, that helped us understand the world. Now, that's been overtaken by the observation that you don't, that, that, that, that there's no antagonism between a Picasso painting and Picasso. There's no antagonism between the two and it's worth understanding both, the man and the painting. And that is the, the painter and the painting is the better metaphor as opposed to, you know, when the Soviets in the 1970s sent a, a rocket, a telescope into orbit and pointed out into space and announced to the world that there was no evidence of God. Well, you know, that sort of sounds idiotic because it is.

• 1:26:09Arthur Brooks?

  It's like looking in the Picasso painting for evidence of Picasso. That's not actually where you find it. These are different lines of inquiry that are actually complementary. And people start figuring that out ordinarily in their 40s. You know, you find that people tend to walk away from faith or spirituality in their 20s. And the reason is because the world is messy. You know, and you say, how can there be a benevolent creator with so much pain in the world, etc. And I understand that this is troubling to a lot of people. But when you're our age, you're like, yeah, everything's messy, nothing's consistent. I can accept a whole lot of cognitive dissonance now that I was unable to accept when I was 28 or 32 years old, just couldn't do it. And so the result of that is that whereas superstitions tend to fall away, I don't believe

• 1:26:50Arthur Brooks?

  in the tooth fairy, the Easter bunny, I'm more willing to be childlike and understandings of the supernatural. Now, for some people, it doesn't work that way. But here's the deal when it comes to happiness. If you're left to your devices, your ordinary quotidian devices, your life is going to be like a continuous tape loop of one episode of Better Call Saul. Like, it was okay the first time, and then it's the same and the same, and you'll go mad with tedium, with boredom. It's just, really, my job, my car, my money, my friends, my time, my show, my me, me, me, just give me a break. The Dalai Lama always says, every time I see him, he says, remember, you are one in

• 1:27:33Arthur Brooks?

  seven billion, by which he does not mean that I'm an ant, that I'm insignificant, by which he means, don't forget the adventure of looking at things from a distance. Don't forget the adventure of seeing life in its spectrum, its majesty, its scale. At 40,000 feet, looking at the whole world where you're part of it, gives you perspective and it gives you peace, you need that. Everybody has a transcendental walk. Now, it comes, maybe it comes from the incredible, I mean, it's like I hang out with a guy named Ryan Holiday.

• 1:28:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I just talked to him like two hours ago. I talk to Ryan all the time.

• 1:28:08Arthur Brooks?

  He's fantastic. He's fantastic. And he's cut his teeth by introducing Marcus Aurelius to a generation of Gen Z'ers like...

• 1:28:17Arthur Brooks?

  Wow, Ryan Holiday discovered Seneca, it's awesome. But it's so smart and so good, he's such a, Ryan's a visionary guy. And, and you can study this, the philosophers, or, as I mentioned before, the, the works of Bach, or understanding nature in a, in a very metaphysical way, or a traditional, or non-traditional faith or spiritual practice, or a meditation practice. There's lots of ways to do this, but we must have a transcendental walk, because life is simply too intense and exhausting and boring if we don't do that.

• 1:28:47Rich Roll?

  So how does one embark upon that if this is a new alien concept?

• 1:28:52Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, I've asked the Dalai Lama that very thing, you know, it's like asking for a friend, kind of, but, and, and I have, my more traditional religious life actually proceeds from this, because I realized, I mean, there are times when I was more religious and times when I was less religious, but in my 30s, I recognized that this was a big hole in my soul, and I didn't need to go across state lines to go to a different supermarket.

• 1:29:14Rich Roll?

  What precipitated that?

• 1:29:16Arthur Brooks?

  A need, I recognized a need, that I needed, I needed better, more peace and better perspective, and I just have a sense that this is right. Now, what part is right, I don't know, I don't actually know, but I need a physics of spirituality, and just as I would not try to create my own mathematical structures and, you know, to create my own alternative system of mathematics, I don't feel like I have to do so in a religious way, other people feel differently about it. But the Dalai Lama talks about kind of a pyramid, for the basis of the pyramid is moral living, figure, and this is a Jungian perspective too, Carl Jung said that happiness comes from defining your values and living according to them. If you know what your values are and you don't live according to them, or you don't know what your values are, you won't be happy.

• 1:29:59Arthur Brooks?

  Defining your values and your morals and living according to them with impeccable integrity. That means, you know, when they say make your bed, I mean, that's just a, it's a boring example of living according to what you think is right, and even when nobody's watching, living according to it. What I recommend is that, that people don't lie, ever, just don't lie. Now, now, when the murderer's at the door and says, you know, where's the victim, fine, but that's not what we're talking about.

• 1:30:23Rich Roll?

  That's a different podcast.

• 1:30:24Arthur Brooks?

  That's a different podcast, that's a wondery podcast, you know?

• 1:30:28Rich Roll?

  Or a Sam Harris podcast, maybe.

• 1:30:30Arthur Brooks?

  So figure out, write down what your moral values are and make a plan to live according to them. That's step one. Step two is build a meditative practice. Build a practice of contemplation. Maybe that's formal meditation, maybe that's walking in the woods, but you need a practice without devices where you can be at peace. And finally, you need to read wisdom. You need to expose yourself to people who have had deeper thoughts and more profound thoughts than you. So number one, act according to your values. Learn your values, act according to your values, practice your values, write it down, journal it. Number two is get your contemplative practice in order and make sure you start with at least 15 minutes a day. And number three is actually read the wisdom literature in whatever tradition you want

• 1:31:13Arthur Brooks?

  and do that daily for at least 15 minutes. Starting there, your life will change. It will, your world will rock.

• 1:31:22Rich Roll?

  What does the science say about the service piece, the giving back piece? Because I just know for me, like when I have those moments of bliss, you know, they come in the most unlikely packages. They generally come when I'm not self-seeking, but I'm able to get outside of my own self and my own ego-centric, you know, looping and avail myself for the betterment of somebody else. Like it's just, if you, if you are going through something difficult, if you're having a hard time, if you're meeting a roadblock, to just like pick up the phone and like see how someone else is doing. And not in a complicated way necessarily, but to kind of reflexively develop that skill

• 1:32:03Rich Roll?

  is such a relief and such an amplifier of that thing that we're seeking, which is a sense of connection and fulfillment and purpose, et cetera. And I suspect the older we get and the more our crystallized intelligence becomes more important and paramount as we're searching for outlets or ways to kind of engender more meaning in our lives, that this is such a beautiful and... Obvious thing for people to channel their energy into.

• 1:32:32Arthur Brooks?

  Absolutely. No, you're absolutely right. Crystalized intelligence in this expression requires serving others. Requires serving others. You can't teach without students. There's no reason for you to have pattern recognition and pass on the knowledge if there's nobody to pass it on to. It's not just a question of you creating value on the basis of your clever ideas. It's collecting clever ideas in service of other people who need to learn from you. The professor requires students, and that is an act of love at its best. All of the evidence, all of the empirical evidence, all the social science shows that you will be happier, healthier, richer, and even better looking if you give more.

• 1:33:12Rich Roll?

  Better looking?

• 1:33:12Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:13Rich Roll?

  How do they evaluate that?

• 1:33:14Arthur Brooks?

  There's this great, there's this great study, it's a British study, where the social psychologists, they bring couples into the lab, married couples in the lab. And there's a guy in a white lab coat, and he says to the married couple, some have been married for a long time, some just for, you know, a couple of years. And he says to the couple, "Okay, here's how the experiment works. I'm gonna give you this pocketful of change to the gentleman." He picks the coins and puts it in the man's pocket. "You two need to walk down that little path over to that building over there outside." He says, "And I have a colleague who's gonna wait, and he's gonna interview you for five minutes, and you get to keep the money and go home." Simple experiment. Cool. Okay, now, it turns out, when they're walking down a little path, there's another pathway that comes from between the buildings, from which a hobo comes walking out, a homeless guy comes walking out, and

• 1:33:56Arthur Brooks?

  panhandles the husband, right? He's a confederate to the experiment, right? He's a collaborator. "You got some change?" He does. They put the change in his pocket. He has to make a decision. "Am I gonna give to the homeless guy, or am I not?" He makes a decision. They go on walking to the next building, where the other scientist is waiting to interview them. He says first, "Sir, did you give to the homeless man, and how much?" Writes it down, says to the wife, "How attractive do you find him right now?"

• 1:34:25Arthur Brooks?

  It turns out the more-

• 1:34:26Rich Roll?

  It's sort of rigged though.

• 1:34:27Arthur Brooks?

  It's totally rigged, but the whole point is that she likes him if he was just more generous, which is why if you're in the market, when you were in the market back in the old days, when you were dating your wife, you were extra nice to puppies and babies around her. Because you wanted her to see that you were a giving person, you were a loving person, that it brings out the best in you, because you actually became more attractive on the basis of your love for your fellow men and dogs.

• 1:34:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 1:34:52Arthur Brooks?

  You actually get better looking. Women find men better looking if they are more loving and philanthropic and serving-

• 1:34:59Rich Roll?

  Alright, so if you take away no other idea from this podcast-

• 1:35:03Arthur Brooks?

  News you can use, man. That's right.

• 1:35:06Rich Roll?

  We were talking a few minutes ago about reducing your wants. Like if you can really curtail that, that's a good recipe for putting you on like a happiness trajectory, right? But like, how do you do that?

• 1:35:20Arthur Brooks?

  How do you reduce your wants?

• 1:35:21Rich Roll?

  You want what you want, right?

• 1:35:22Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, no, except that there's all kinds of interesting ways to do that. So, there's an image that I really like, that's really helpful, that a guy, a philosopher of art in China taught me. And I was actually touring the National Palace Museum in Taipei. And we were looking at this sculpture of this chipped piece of jade, and it was sculptured to a Chinese village. And I said, "Look, even if you didn't tell me it was Chinese, I would know it's Chinese. How do I know just by looking at it, it's Chinese? You know, if it didn't have a pagoda in it, but it's just, you know, it looks Chinese." He says, "Why?" He says, "Because it's a different concept of what art is." He said, "You think of art as starting with an empty canvas and being filled up with brush strokes. We think of art as already existing inside the block of jade, which we have to chip away until we find the work of art."

• 1:36:06Arthur Brooks?

  He said, "This is also how you see success in the West, is starting from nothing and building up, and then after a while, it's so full that you actually can't get any more satisfaction, because it's just more brush strokes." You know, if you've got a completely full canvas, effectively, metaphorically, and you're like, "I don't know, I'm not satisfied, maybe I'll get a boat." It's not gonna work, because the canvas is already full. To find real satisfaction in the second half of life, this is a second curve phenomenon. This is one of the things that all happy older people have in common. They've stopped adding and they start taking away. They start chipping away. And each year, I throw away more stuff until I can find me, which is intensely satisfying. So the key thing is, what are you gonna throw away this year? Don't have a bucket list. Have a reverse bucket list.

• 1:36:50Arthur Brooks?

  The reverse bucket list is a list of your attachments and your strategic plan for, look, if I get it, I get it. But I no longer am going to consider myself a loser if I don't, you know, ride in a hot air balloon or, you know, have lunch with the president. I am detaching myself officially and that metacognitive exercise really, really works. And I do that. You know, one year I gave away two thirds of my clothes.

• 1:37:11Rich Roll?

  Simply by making a, like, making a decision to do it?

• 1:37:14Arthur Brooks?

  Making a decision to be detached and then act accordingly. I gave away two thirds of my clothes. Last year, the year before on my birthday, I gave away half of my political opinions. I wrote down all my political opinions, I detached myself from half of them.

• 1:37:26Rich Roll?

  That's so interesting. Well, for two things.

• 1:37:28Arthur Brooks?

  It's hardcore, right?

• 1:37:29Rich Roll?

  You're, you're kind of a clothes horse, right? Like, you're, you're a sartorial maven, so giving away your clothes was probably, probably, there might have been a little pinch there.

• 1:37:38Arthur Brooks?

  I might have not given away the best ones.

• 1:37:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay. All right, fair enough. And it is interesting because you were once known and have written many books about politics. But if you kind of go online and research everything you've been talking about, there's none of that. Like, you, you've really kind of put that aside and said, I'm focused on this now.

• 1:37:59Arthur Brooks?

  That is, and it, it was pursuant to the decision in my reverse bucket list birthday exercise to detach myself more consciously from something that had been quite important to me, quite frankly, but was holding me back. It was holding me back from bonds of love with people who are different than me.

• 1:38:14Rich Roll?

  Are you happier?

• 1:38:15Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:16Rich Roll?

  You're not part of that, that conversation?

• 1:38:17Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, I really am. And, and again, I've got nothing against the conversation. I want a responsible country that has good public policy and better politics. But I actually don't think I have an oracle on truth. I know I'm wrong, I just don't know on what. And actually, getting away from intense opinions and big arguments has been a, a kind of detachment that has truly set me free.

• 1:38:37Rich Roll?

  Do you have to just, do you have to just stay off Twitter?

• 1:38:40Arthur Brooks?

  Well, I mean, I can say-

• 1:38:41Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's gotta be provocative when you see a bunch of craziness.

• 1:38:44Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah, but it's actually-

• 1:38:45Rich Roll?

  You have this urge to jump in.

• 1:38:46Arthur Brooks?

  (laughing)

• 1:38:48Arthur Brooks?

  Well, since I made the detachment decision about political opinions, I get a lot more laughs. I get more laughs from people who are saying outlandish things I have to say. I mean, I'm alarmed at what's happening in this country. And I believe we need to love our enemies politically a lot more than we do. That's super important for us to do. And I'm just better able to do it and to model that, to build alliances with people who would ordinarily be very, very different than me politically when I'm not attached. I mean, look, I got these opinions, but I can take them or leave them, is the whole point. It's interesting. And Thich Nhat Hanh, the great Vietnamese Buddhist master, he said, "The greatest attachments that many have is to their opinions." That had a big effect on me, because we never think of that, right?

• 1:39:30Arthur Brooks?

  It's like, yeah, it's my material possessions and...

• 1:39:34Rich Roll?

  Well, there's an identity construct in that.

• 1:39:36Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, for sure. Absolutely, for sure. And by the way, give away parts of your identity. Give away your concept of who you are. Detach yourself from these things about who you actually are. And that's been really helpful to me, too, I have to say.

• 1:39:49Rich Roll?

  That's very liberating.

• 1:39:50Arthur Brooks?

  Hugely. It's actually one of the greatest secrets that I've ever been able to come across is the reverse bucket list around ideology, identity, and opinions.

• 1:40:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a PhD in minimalism, because it's really a mindful practice. It's not about... I mean, cleaning out your closet is an activity, but it's not really about getting rid of your possessions. It's about clarity of purpose and thought, and removing the clutter of your conscious experience and the traps of your identity that are getting in the way of you being a more fulfilled human.

• 1:40:24Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, and when you make a commitment to it and somebody says something you would have snapped at before, you're more likely to go, huh.

• 1:40:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:40:31Arthur Brooks?

  Huh.

• 1:40:32Rich Roll?

  Tell me more about that.

• 1:40:32Arthur Brooks?

  Come sit next to me.

• 1:40:36Rich Roll?

  So when you go back to the think tank and walk the halls, can you... like, it must be... You know, like, did they, like, your old colleagues, are they confused?

• 1:40:48Arthur Brooks?

  I don't know.

• 1:40:49Rich Roll?

  You don't know?

• 1:40:49Arthur Brooks?

  I don't really know.

• 1:40:50Rich Roll?

  You've transcended that.

• 1:40:51Arthur Brooks?

  Well, I mean, I've gone back a couple of times and, and, like, I love these people, and I think they're doing absolutely outstanding work. I just love the work that they do. I'm so proud to have been part of that. But I also recognize that I did go poof. And, and, and it's okay. It's absolutely okay. And I'll talk to people and they'll kind of be like, "What happened to you, man?" It's interesting, because I used to be, I was a musician for so many years.

• 1:41:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we didn't even talk about that.

• 1:41:15Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, and I was a classical musician, but I also toured for two years with the jazz guitar player Charlie Bird.

• 1:41:21Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 1:41:21Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah. And, and I was on tour with Charlie Bird all over the place. And, and years ago, probably six or seven years ago, I was doing this, I was hosting this big event in Washington DC. You know, 2,000 people black tie at the National Building Museum, you know, we had this big event, and Benjamin Netanyahu is this guest speaker, and, and it was a huge thing. The press corps was all there, and we had protesters outside. It was a great night. It was a fantastic, fun night. And we hired a band. And, you know, the band was playing, and they were pretty good. In the end, you know, we're kind of cleaning up, and, you know, I was the president of the organization. I'd give the, give them the remarks and one of the keynote addresses. And, and afterward, you know, my tie, my bow tie is untied, and it's 11 o'clock at night, and I'm pretty satisfied. And I noticed the drummer is coming down from the bandstand. He's walking over to me.

• 1:42:05Arthur Brooks?

  And this, the place is clearing out. He says, "Are you Arthur Brooks, the French horn player?" Because that's what I did for a living. And I recognized him. He was the drummer for Charlie Bird, and I'd made two records with him 20 years earlier, 25 years earlier. And, and, and he's looking at me, and he's, he says, "He says, 'Are you the boss of all this now?'" I said, "Yeah, yeah, I am." He says, "What happened to you, man?"

• 1:42:30Rich Roll?

  It's the same thing, right? It's a crazy story to be this French horn prodigy and to have this whole career throughout your 20s and be playing in these orchestras and, and really being, you know, in pursuit of this career of mastery of music. And then to discover in your 20s that you just couldn't play as well as you once could, and the struggle to try to figure out how to solve it until ultimately you just, you have to give it up.

• 1:42:56Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. Yeah, I gave it up.

• 1:42:58Rich Roll?

  And then it burst this whole other career. It reminds me of, um, do you know Maya Shankar?

• 1:43:03Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:04Rich Roll?

  It's a similar, very similar story.

• 1:43:06Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, the violinist.

• 1:43:07Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 1:43:08Arthur Brooks?

  It's, um, playing a classical instrument is hugely coordination and strength endeavor, strength oriented endeavor. It's like being an athlete, but with fine motor skills as opposed to gross motor skills. And there's a lot of things that can go wrong. And there's a lot of things that we don't understand that can actually go wrong. There can be repetitive stress injuries, there can be nerve damage, there can be actually muscle tears at the finest level. You can be a French horn player like I am and tear a tiny muscle in your upper lip and you're cooked. I mean, you just, you'll be, you'll go into decline. You'll be able to play, but you'll be able to go into decline. And who knows why, but in my twenties, I was getting better, man. I was getting better. I was on this upward trajectory. And I frankly wanted to be the greatest French horn player in the world. And it's like, what a great country. You can have an ambition like so crazy. And, and, and things

• 1:43:52Arthur Brooks?

  looked good, but when I was 21 or 22 years old, I started to get worse. And I couldn't quite figure it out. And, you know, then I, I played for a bunch of seasons in the Barcelona Symphony. And, and I was getting worse. I mean, no matter what I did, it's nothing worked. And, and I went to the greatest teachers. And it was like this masterclass in understanding decline, which is very helpful to me, I have to say, because, you know, declines that came later because of fluid intelligence, not because of a small muscle tear in my lip or whatever happened. I was actually able to experience what decline meant, but I had to retool my career and leave. And, and, you know, I went and I just reluctantly and sorrowfully and ashamedly left music and went, you know, got my PhD and went into the family business, which is academia. Cause my dad and my father, my grandfather,

• 1:44:37Arthur Brooks?

  they were both academics. And, and, you know, most people would be like, awesome. What's, what's your problem, man? It's because this was my dream. This was my dream. It was like I was, I wanted to be a major league pitcher. And I just got, kind of got to the, you know, three games in AAA or something like that and had to give it up and thought about it. And I thought I was going to be sad about it for the rest of my life, quite frankly, I have to say.

• 1:45:00Rich Roll?

  Do you play today just for joy?

• 1:45:02Arthur Brooks?

  Never, because there's no joy.

• 1:45:03Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:45:04Arthur Brooks?

  There's actually no joy. There's, there's just,

• 1:45:05Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:45:06Arthur Brooks?

  I love music. Now I actually love music for the first time. I didn't love music when I played. And it's interesting, you know, there's all this literature about humor. I've done a lot of research on humor. There's two, sense of humor means two things. It means enjoying jokes and making jokes. Happiness is only associated with enjoying jokes. It's not associated with making jokes.

• 1:45:26Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 1:45:26Arthur Brooks?

  It turns out that if you're a funny person, that does not improve your happiness quite the contrary. But if you enjoy funny things and you have the humility to laugh at other people who are funny, you get the benefits. The same thing is true with a lot of enjoying music and making music. Now, some people get a lot of joy from it, but for me, it was like being a stand-up comic. It was just this pathos and drive and ambition and I wasn't happy. And I'm much happier than I was then.

• 1:45:52Rich Roll?

  It's interesting because then that becomes almost a test case for, you know, what you focus on later in life. Like you had this experience where you had to weather a career transition at a very early age and you understood disappointment and loss and all of that and how to rebuild.

• 1:46:10Arthur Brooks?

  Right.

• 1:46:11Rich Roll?

  So you did it at a period of time where you had a lot of fluid intelligence and when you're younger, maybe the stakes are lower and you have all this upside because you have so many more years to do other things. But, but it's almost like that, maybe that like, you know, planted something.

• 1:46:25Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. And I've taken my career down to the studs four times. I mean, 10, 12 years as a professional French horn player, 10 years in academia, 10 years running a think tank and now this happiness operation.

• 1:46:38Rich Roll?

  Whatever this is.

• 1:46:38Arthur Brooks?

  Startup. This is like, you know, make America happy.

• 1:46:41Rich Roll?

  Well, there's a cabal of like happiness experts and, you know, out there like there's Gretchen.

• 1:46:47Arthur Brooks?

  We're all trying to get happy.

• 1:46:50Arthur Brooks?

  You don't study what you have. You study what you want.

• 1:46:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, let's, let's like round this out with maybe a little bit more practical advice. Like as I think about this in relationship to myself and my own career path, I'm thinking, okay, I'm 55, like I want to keep doing this. How long can I keep doing this? I don't know. I'm trying to make it as sustainable as possible so I can continue to have a joyful relationship with it and maintain that level of enthusiasm and, and, and kind of like connection to it so that it can. Maintain that level of quality, but how long am I going to be able to do it? I don't know. I do know that at some point, I'm going to be like, I don't want to talk into a microphone anymore, or I'm not able to do it at the quality level that I want to. So what can I do now?

• 1:47:35Rich Roll?

  Well, as I mentioned earlier, I want to develop my friendships a little bit better. My kids are getting older. I want to make sure that those relationships are intact, that there is a bond there that, you know, will transcend my career path, without doing it in an unhealthy way where I'm creating expectations for what our relationship, because they need to go and be in the world. Like, I don't want to be, you know, like, I think some parents make the mistake of like, putting all this pressure on their kids to now be their friends, because they're in that weird space.

• 1:48:06Arthur Brooks?

  Big mistake.

• 1:48:07Rich Roll?

  But, you know, what else should one be doing? Or should I be thinking about, or even you be thinking about as we, you know, walk this path?

• 1:48:15Arthur Brooks?

  You need, we need to be propulsive. We need to be thinking in a very specific way about the engineering of this, and that requires discernment. See, discernment is hard. We think that the world is going to tell us what we want through the experiences. That doesn't work. It doesn't work that way. You know, my students will say, you know, I thought when I went to college, I'd figure out what my passion is. And I got out of college and I still didn't have it. So, so I went to business school. I thought that I would find it there. And then I went to McKinsey, or, you know, I went to, you know, the Boston Consulting Group, or Goldman Sachs, and I thought I would find it there. And, and, you know, I'm 31 years old, still looking, still waiting for my passion. But we're, we do sort of the same thing, too. I like this thing, and, and, and what the next thing that should be will present itself to me. But that's actually not the way it works.

• 1:49:00Arthur Brooks?

  We need to be highly propulsive about our discernment. And discernment has, is an ancient tradition. You know, discernment, Suenesis, for the ancient Greeks, panna for the, for the, for the Buddhists in Pali or Sanskrit. And there, there's this Ignatian spiritual discernment for Catholics. And so every spiritual tradition has discernment, and it requires work. You know, when I was thinking about this, when I stepped down as the president of this think tank, I went for a walk. I walked the Camino de Santiago. I walked and walked and walked and asked for help and thought about this. And what am I supposed to do next? And I've done it since then, too. And I'm going to do it regularly because I need to this this constant process of discernment,

• 1:49:44Arthur Brooks?

  which exposes me to the the most boring thing ever, which is the exposure therapy to something that's not exciting, that is actually excruciatingly boring and painful. And during which time I can actually contemplate actually what the next next thing probably should be. But we need to get out of our routine and do the work of this. What I recommend is that you're 55 years old. Say, what's 60 year old Rich? What's he doing? You know, what does this actually mean? Now, what is your a happy version of you look like? OK, so here's the exercise. Six to five years from now, imagine yourself. You are happy. You know what that means because you know how that feels. And you've got some of the data on this, too, with your enjoyment, satisfaction, and purpose, et cetera, et cetera.

• 1:50:29Arthur Brooks?

  Now, list the five things that are most responsible for you being happy in order. OK, the podcast is not number one. Your marriage and your relationship with your children and your friendships are probably number one, two, and three. And probably number four is your religious enlightenment. And maybe number five is what you're doing professionally all day long. Maybe, I'm just guessing.

• 1:50:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:51Arthur Brooks?

  Put them in order and then ask yourself, what am I managing to? I bet you're managing right now to number five. Switch the order. Switch the management imperative. Switch the how you need to more intensively manage one, two, three, and four than number five. My students do this all the time. And part of the reason is because it's easier to manage the things that are are more professional. It's easier to manage your career than it is to manage your friendships.

• 1:51:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:51:16Arthur Brooks?

  But you can manage your friendships. And that means starting to do that every single day. Maybe in five years you'll be doing the podcast. Maybe you won't. But in five years, you should have closer friendships, a better marriage, a better concept of your relationship with your children, and a much deeper spiritual walk. And if and if you do the work right now, then the job will take care of itself and your priorities will be in order.

• 1:51:41Rich Roll?

  That's super sound advice. I feel like I am doing all of those things on some level, but just to kind of label it in that way and then to inject it with like a higher degree of intentionality and structure, I think.

• 1:51:55Arthur Brooks?

  For sure. And we can all do that. I mean, this is the wonderful blessing of having a big prefrontal cortex, is that you don't have to take life as it's given. You can actually be the manager of you, Inc., which is your ultimate enterprise of importance.

• 1:52:09Rich Roll?

  And what you kind of didn't say explicitly, but is implicit, is when you're in this mode, in this practice, you are making space for the mystery, right? Like, if you walk this path and you're taking care of these things and you're aligning your actions with your values, and you're exercising that level of discernment, there is a faith and a trust that like the next step will be revealed. And that's like, that's an embrace of, you know, the mystical nature of what it means to be, and the beautiful mystical nature of being human.

• 1:52:44Arthur Brooks?

  You're willing to walk off that edge. You know, I talk about this. You know, for my little girl, she turned 19 last week.

• 1:52:52Rich Roll?

  She your youngest?

• 1:52:53Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. And she was 18 a year ago, obviously. And for her 18th birthday, she wanted one thing, one thing, one thing. She wanted to jump out of an airplane with me. She wanted to go skydiving. Okay. So, and my wife's like, forget about it. And I have a son, as I mentioned, in the Marine Corps, he's done it a million times. And my older son is like, that's stupid. She said, no, Daddy, I want to do it with you. So we...

• 1:53:15Rich Roll?

  But how sweet is that? And the awareness, like, those calls don't come around a lot of the time.

• 1:53:20Arthur Brooks?

  No, no, she's the best. She truly understands me. She's rock solid. And so we did that. And it's not scary. It's just the most unnatural thing ever. I mean, my heart didn't even elevate, but it was, I was intensely aware of how unnatural it was. And this unnatural thing, and it could have been scary. For some people, find it very frightening. But for whatever reason, it didn't frighten me exactly. And, but the guy's like, jump.

• 1:53:48Arthur Brooks?

  And he was telling me to do something that was, that seemed literally impossible, and I did it. This is it. If you're actually doing the work, you're doing the work of having your spiritual and moral and values, your life in order, then it will still feel unnatural to make these jumps, but you can do it. You can actually just, because all you do is you fall out of the plane. You just literally fall out of the plane. And, and you can do that. And that's an incredible gift to be able to do it, but you can't do that if you don't actually have somebody who's, that you trust and, you know, a parachute strapped to you and a guy strapped to you. And you can't do all that stuff. And that's what this work really is, is actually making it so that with complete confidence, you can do the least natural thing possible.

• 1:54:33Rich Roll?

  Hmm, but there is a level of like self-connection, interconnective, like a self-awareness and a commitment to that inside work so that your intuition can be somewhat trustworthy, right? I think for a lot of strivers, that's not really part of their mental, emotional or spiritual equation. So there has to be some cultivation to that. So I guess that's, you know, when you talk about, you know, faith or pursuing something transcendent in your life, like that's a big component of whatever that modality is gonna look like.

• 1:55:05Arthur Brooks?

  No, no, if you've only developed your exterior self, it's, it's a problem. If you've developed yourself as a full person, a lot of strivers, when you talk to them deep down, they think they don't really exist. They think of themselves as a hologram because they've been working on it. They think of themselves as a, a 2D person on Zoom to themselves. It's the weirdest thing. And in my worst days, it's been like that too. You know, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm a guy. I'm a guy that I've invented. I've invented this guy.

• 1:55:35Rich Roll?

  You're the, you're the avatar.

• 1:55:37Arthur Brooks?

  Yeah. I, I'm, I'm an avatar of a real person. And that's what a lot of strivers do. And you have to actually do the work so that you come to life in 3D to yourself.

• 1:55:45Rich Roll?

  Cool. Um, super inspiring to talk to you. I'm so glad we were able to do this. It's really nice to meet you.

• 1:55:53Arthur Brooks?

  It's nice to meet you in person too.

• 1:55:54Rich Roll?

  I love all the writing that you're doing. I love the book. It's fantastic. So everybody should pick it up. Strength.

• 1:56:01Arthur Brooks?

  Strength.

• 1:56:01Rich Roll?

  And come back and talk to me again sometime.

• 1:56:04Arthur Brooks?

  Thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. You're lifting a lot of people up and you're bringing a lot of us together around these values that matter.

• 1:56:09Rich Roll?

  I appreciate that, man. Cool. Peace.

• 1:56:12Arthur Brooks?

  You too.

• 1:56:17Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com where you can find the entire podcast archive, as well as podcast merch, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way, as well as the Plant Power Meal Planner at meals.richroll.com. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or comment. Supporting

• 1:57:02Rich Roll?

  the sponsors who support the show is also important and appreciated. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, the meal planner, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo, with additional audio engineering by Cale Curtis. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis, with assistance by our creative director, Dan Drake. Portraits by Davy Greenberg and Grayson Wilder. Graphic and social media assets courtesy

• 1:57:44Rich Roll?

  of Jessica Miranda, Daniel Solis, Dan Drake, and A.J. Akpodiate. Thank you, Georgia Whaley, for copywriting and website management. And of course, our theme music was created by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt, and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. Plants.