Remembering David Clark

On May 21, 2020, the world lost a treasure. A beloved, 2-time RRP alumni, David Clark was one of the most courageous, resilient and authentic human beings I've ever met. A force for positive change. A model of service. The epitome of transformation, embodied. A loyal friend to many. And a man blessed with a preternatural gift for igniting the best in everyone he touched. Succumbing after complications incident to a herniated disc surgery, a chapter ends far too soon. But the story behind this accomplished ultra-endurance athlete, bestselling author, and father of three is a legend that will continue to be told -- and will never be forgotten. Today we honor the life and legacy of Dave Clark. Dave's steel was forged from hardship -- periodic homelessness and a poverty both financial and educational. Adulthood found him descending into the firm grip of alcoholism. He ate recklessly. He drank and drugged himself into oblivion. And continued his downward spiral until he was utterly lost. Completely alone. And hopeless. Tipping the scales at 320 pounds, Dave finally met his breaking point. Summing a will of superhuman proportions, he ushered the courage to finally face his demons. Hence began a process of implausible personal transformation. It's a staggering journey that would ultimately lead to breathtaking feats that defy possibility. And a laudable call to service that rivals anyone I've ever met. Dave didn’t just drop 150 pounds on a plant-based diet. Nor did he celebrate with a simple marathon. Instead, Dave would go on to on to crush a relentless list of the world's most challenging ultra-marathons, from Badwater to Leadville. He ran the Boston Marathon course four times without stopping. And he even ran across the entire United States. With uncompromising vulnerability, Dave recounts his inconceivable arc in his first book, Out There. In Broken Open, he faces the dark side of taking athleticism too far. Released just two weeks ago, Eat Sh*t And Die boldly tackles food addiction head on. I can't bring Dave back. Nor can I begin to measure his positive impact on myself and countless others. What I can do is honor his life and legacy. So today, RRP alums Mishka Shubaly and Josh LaJaunie -- both close friends of Dave -- join me to eulogize him, followed by a re-release of my first conversation with Dave, recorded in November, 2014 (RRP #113). More Dave Clark: If Dave's message resonates with you, check out RRP #290, my 2nd podcast with him published almost exactly three years ago. It's a banger. Dave was a sober warrior unlike any other. He wrung every last drop out of life. He was deeply loved and will be terribly missed. Let his story be a beacon. A reminder that when the body, mind and spirit align with faith, human potential is truly boundless. Run free, my friend. Run free. Peace + Plants, Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:09Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 0:13Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody, it's Rich and I'm coming to you today with a heavy heart. Somebody who I cared for dearly has suddenly passed away. His name was David Clark. He was a good friend of mine and he was a two-time podcast guest. And in honor of his memory, I wanted to do a couple of things today. First of all, I wanted to re-release our first podcast, which we recorded back in November of 2014. That was episode 113. It was the first time that I met him. And also, I wanted to spend a few minutes remembering him with two very good friends

• 0:57Rich Roll?

  of mine, who also have graced this podcast platform in the past. Mishka Shubali, who's been on the show many times. You guys know Mishka. I was first introduced to David by Mishka. And also Josh LaJaunie, who's been on the show a number of times in the past, a big podcast favorite as well. So, um, let's talk to these guys. Mishka, Josh, how you guys doing?

• 1:22Mishka Shubaly?

  Doing good, considering. I, uh, I made sure I ate something before we did this. So I felt like I would cry less if I had food in my stomach and so far not working. Yeah, good luck.

• 1:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So for those that, for those that don't know, David Clark was an incredibly inspirational man. He's somebody who is known for this incredible weight loss journey that he went on. I think he'd lost something like 130, 150 pounds. He was pushing 320 or something like that at some point. Was able to overcome that obstacle as well as overcome alcoholism. He reinvented himself wholesale. He adopted a plant-based diet and went on to become this incredibly accomplished ultra runner, somebody who... Ran Leadville, he ran Badwater, he did this thing called the Boston Quad where he ran

• 2:20Rich Roll?

  the Boston Marathon back and forth four times. He ran across the United States with Charlie Engel and a couple other guys. And just yesterday, we're recording this on Friday, May 22nd, but yesterday on the 21st, he went in to the hospital for what was intended to be a fairly routine herniated disc procedure. And due to complications, passed away very suddenly. So this news is quite jarring and upsetting. And you guys knew him well, better than I knew him, as a matter of fact. So I just thought it would be nice to kind of remember him and share a few thoughts on, on what this guy meant to you.

• 3:01Josh LaJaunie?

  Yeah. Shoot. You know, Dave was the first person I had, like I had, I had been following a bunch of ultra runners. And I had also seen weight loss success stories. You know, but Dave was the first one where I had seen someone, like I had seen both of those things together that made it seem possible to me not just to become a runner, but to actually

• 3:35Josh LaJaunie?

  be like, you know, a prolific ultra runner, you know? And that, it made it, it gave me permission in a way to like, hey, I can do this. I'll be okay. Dave did it. And that podcast in, in, in 2014, I had just been on not, you know, what, a year before that? And I was thinking like, I was something like, oh, man, I've never like, I've lost

• 4:13Josh LaJaunie?

  over 225 pounds and I'm, you know, I was about to run my first ultra in 2015. I had signed up for it in it in February. And I was thinking, I was like, leading the charge of ex fat guys, you know? And I hear this, I hear this podcast with Dave and I'm just completely blown away. Like, he's already there. He's already done it. He's doing it. And he wrote a book about it. And, um,

• 4:44Mishka Shubaly?

  It was just a profound night listening in to that podcast for and and learning of Dave Clark for the first time. And I'm lucky enough to have been able to meet him several times and share the mountain with him in Leadville and and um and just visit and have heart to hearts over the phone, talking through my back problems.

• 5:09Mishka Shubaly?

  Well, he's just a good guy.

• 5:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he was a a deeply soulful guy. And if there's one thing, you know, about David that I think stood him apart was that he always was available, like he always gave back more than he received, and he never forgot that call to service. Like, he just showed up for so many people and was such a massive inspiration to just thousands and thousands of people.

• 5:36Mishka Shubaly?

  What's ironic is like, I was actually podcasting Rich when you called me yesterday about this. And and one of the things that I was talking about, and and this is one of those things that like I would think of all the time when I thought about Dave was possibility, right? Because it just takes it just takes one person to do it, to do a thing, whether it's losing the weight, or whether it's running the race, or climbing to the top of the mountain, or it just takes one person to do it to change the thing from being impossible to possible. And Dave did that again and again, for not just for us, but for so many people that we

• 6:18Mishka Shubaly?

  know, and so many people we love, and like a part of this community around the podcast, you know, that like, you know, with, oh, it's impossible to take that much weight off and keep it off. Well, Dave Clark did it. And you know, it's impossible to run that far, that long. Well, Dave Clark did it. It's impossible to to invert your ego to just, you know, exactly what you said of like, Dave did effortlessly the thing that I have such a hard time with of just posting up and just being there and and embracing that challenge of being there for your fellow human beings and and giving and being generous. He was just a bottomless well of generosity. He always had time for people. He always had energy to listen to them, you know?

• 7:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, I think you said to me, you know, when people say to you, Mishka, you're an inspiration, you say, yeah, that's only because you haven't met David Clark.

• 7:13Mishka Shubaly?

  He was one of the, like, before I'd written or published anything, when I was like, just getting my shit together, like getting sober and running and stuff, and I was like doing these races and starting to like, maybe offer up to people like, oh yeah, you know, I used to drink a lot and now I don't. And somebody said his name to me and they're like, you should check out this guy, Dave Clark, you know, and, and so like, he was, when I met him, dude, it was like meeting Superman. You know, that's exactly what it was like. I was like, oh shit, you're real.

• 7:44Rich Roll?

  And he was relentless. No matter what mountain he climbed, he was always eyeing the next thing. Like, you know, part of his disposition was that there was no rest for David Clark. Like, no matter what obstacle he was facing, he was always finding that glimmer of, of positive opportunity. Um, you know, whether it's, you know, look, I've, I've been injured in, in running, so now I'm going to get on the bike, or I'm going to go into the gym and learn how to be an MMA fighter. Like, there was just no stopping this guy. And he was also prolific in his writing. He wrote this amazing autobiography out there. Then he wrote Broken Open, which is more about,

• 8:24Rich Roll?

  the nature, like sort of this dark secret in endurance and ultra endurance sports where our relationship to this sport becomes unhealthy and his reckoning and, and kind of wrestling with that. And he just released this brand new book, like last week, May 10th, called Eat Shit and Die, which everybody should pick up, especially if you want to support him and, and honor his legacy. I mean, three books and while he's doing all this other stuff and, and facing You know, the kind of obstacles that that, you know, we all face as athletes and and humans.

• 9:01Mishka Shubaly?

  I I I had a relationship with Dave that was sort of like my relationship with Stephen King, you know, where it's like Stephen King has to write everything. And I would go on Facebook and see and like Dave had just wrapped some insane challenge, donating all the money he raised to this charity. And I would log back in and and he'd have another fucking one lined up like right after. And I was like, God, damn it, Dave, like, are you just gonna run everything? Like, are you just gonna raise all the money? Are you gonna help all the people? I damn it, dude.

• 9:36Rich Roll?

  That's so funny.

• 9:37Josh LaJaunie?

  He was persistent, man. And I think that has a lot to do with like the, you know, I looked up to him really, you know, obviously as a human and as a person who's lost a lot of weight, but really is an aspiring ultra runner. Man, I, you know, I've been wanting this for so long, you know, to be one of those things. Um, it was it and and he was not, he was just a guy that that was there for me, not only as an experienced ultra runner to offer advice, but as one who was also morbidly obese at one point in time

• 10:16Josh LaJaunie?

  and could relate to me in ways that other people just don't can't, you know? It's a really weird, twisted club, these like, I don't know why my heart's broken so bad. Like these, um, formerly morbidly obese. I know how bad you had to hurt to get there. And, uh, it just makes a certain bond. And to have one that to have one of those humans that whose Venn diagram also overlaps in the area of of what we do for fun, like what we do for.

• 10:59Josh LaJaunie?

  Like camaraderie and pleasure and community ultra runner is like it was it was especially unique relationship with a with with um with a runner although we didn't get to meet in person often um I did I did look up to him uh in a in a very unique and specific way and he is there's gonna definitely be a void um in my life.

• 11:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 11:30Mishka Shubaly?

  I I think I think what's interesting too Josh is that like the way you describe it that's exactly how I feel about him you know but I didn't have the experience of of being morbidly obese and then losing all that weight you know and it's it's like it's a it's a small weird club that we have you know but like

• 11:51Josh LaJaunie?

  Yeah.

• 11:52Mishka Shubaly?

  Dave was deeply ours you know he he belonged to us and he was one of those people who like when you met him he had all this strange amount of insight into your life as you know as an addict as you know somebody who had lost all this weight as an ultra runner as somebody as an aspiring writer it's you know he was just motherfucker was a check in every box you know and I just every time I saw him I was like man you know me you know and and he did from the instant I met him and and I and I feel like we all have that experience of Dave you know that we feel like he was very specifically ours.

• 12:35Josh LaJaunie?

  Yeah, finishing each other's sentences the first time I ever met him.

• 12:39Rich Roll?

  I think that there's something really special and unique about his arc in that it's not just this massive weight loss story you know I've known people that have lost tremendous amounts of weight I know many many people that have battled with and overcome their addiction turmoil um but with David it's sort of like you said he checked all those boxes but you know when you look at these images of him before he wasn't just a a large guy lost in the throes of alcoholism there was a darkness to it like a deep darkness that you can see in that guy and for him to transcend that and step into the light and be this beacon for so many people.

• 13:22Rich Roll?

  In a way that, you know, I, I, I struggle to even think of anyone else who comes close to, you know, that kind of example that he set for so many people. It's just a deep and profound loss for, for all of us.

• 13:36Mishka Shubaly?

  And the, the experience that he had in his life, you know, struggling as an alcoholic and an addict and, and somebody who was addicted to food and, and then, you know, addiction to the, to the racing to, you know, to all the, you know, the crazy shit that he did. The, to see him in person, he just had those beautiful, big, blue eyes, like a, like a baby, you know? And, and so it was like, every time I saw him, looking at his eyes, it was like he was getting younger, you know? And he just, he was so, so hungry for experience and for understanding

• 14:15Mishka Shubaly?

  and for knowledge and for empathy, you know? He just, uh, dude was like a heart in running shoes, you know? He cared about everybody.

• 14:26Rich Roll?

  Well, he left us too soon. I believe he was 49 when he passed.

• 14:31Mishka Shubaly?

  Wow.

• 14:33Rich Roll?

  And he will be, uh, deeply, deeply missed.

• 14:38Josh LaJaunie?

  Yes, he will. Leadville will never be the same.

• 14:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 14:41Josh LaJaunie?

  Not for me, you know? Excuse me.

• 14:46Rich Roll?

  He was loved by many. And Mishka, you said, when we talked on the phone the other day, you said, you know, I will, I will just, you know, that guy is just tattooed on my soul. Like I will never forget him. Like, and I think he lives boldly within all of us and will forever.

• 15:04Mishka Shubaly?

  Absolutely, man. You know, I like, didn't sleep great last night. Dragged myself out of bed this morning and I was thinking about what Dave used to say about, you know, like, every day it's a new opportunity to go for a run. And I was like, you know what? He can't today, but I can. And so I dragged myself out there and was just, had him in my head the whole time, you know? And I was thinking about him and he was. He wasn't fearless, you know, he had, he had tons of fear and I'm sure he would tell you that he was mostly fear, but courage is feeling fear and doing the fucking thing anyway.

• 15:45Mishka Shubaly?

  And that was his special, you know, and I, I, I feel like, you know, at the end, you know, that he was probably like, oh man, so, so this is it, right? This is, you know, the, the great race, right? The one thing I haven't done yet. Yes. And like, well, fuck it, let's go, man. I've been curious my whole life, what this was about, like, let's go for it, you know? And, and I, I feel like in my heart that just, you know, that at the end, he was like, all right, this is the next big thing. This is the next big adventure, you know? I agree.

• 16:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I think that's a good, um, place to put a pin on it, but before we get into, um, this conversation, uh, two more things I think we need to talk about. One is, um, we decided to set up a GoFundMe for David's family. Mishka, you're, you're actually the one who set it up.

• 16:39Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 16:40Rich Roll?

  Um, to raise money to help cover the costs associated with his passing and I'll put a link in the show notes to that. Um, if you have the ability to contribute, please do. I'm sure it'll be appreciated and, and, and much needed by his family. He's left behind by Courtney, his girlfriend.

• 16:57Mishka Shubaly?

  Yep.

• 16:58Rich Roll?

  And three kids, right?

• 16:59Mishka Shubaly?

  Yeah.

• 17:00Rich Roll?

  So they can use all the help, uh, that, that they can get. And the second thing is we were talking about trying to figure out some kind of, uh, community run challenge that, uh, we can all do together to help keep them in our hearts. So Mishka, you want to tell us a little bit about what you were thinking on that note?

• 17:23Mishka Shubaly?

  So what I was, I was, I was doing on this, you know, today too, while I was on my run and thinking about Dave and thinking about the person that he was and, you know, his handle on everything was we are Superman. It wasn't, it wasn't about I, it was about we, it was about us, it was about community, it was about all the strugglers, it was about, you know, the, the whole human race, you know? And, um, and he, he had no ego about anything that he'd done, you know? He was, he just, oh, it was fun, it was beautiful, you know? How are you doing? How's your running been? You know, your, your left foot was bothering you, you know? How, how you doing with that? So I, I feel like now it's time for us to take the light that he shone on us and shine it back on him.

• 18:08Mishka Shubaly?

  And, uh, his birthday was February 5th, 25. So I say a week from tomorrow, that's what, May 30th? Um, let's all go run out and run 25 for Dave, whether it's, you know, and I wanted, it seemed, it was felt important to me to make it a challenge that's open to everybody because Dave, when he started running, man, he could only make it a couple of steps because he was so fat and so out of shape, you know? So go out and run point two five, go out, out and run 2.5, run 12.5, 22.5, you know, what, whatever it is for you, um, go out and do it. Keep Dave in your heart, keep him in your head, post about it.

• 18:53Mishka Shubaly?

  We want to hear how you remember him, how he touched you. And I think we're going to use the, uh, the hashtag, uh, we are David Clark, you know, because he, he gave that we are Superman to us. That was, that was his gift to us and I, I think we should give it back to him.

• 19:15Josh LaJaunie?

  I agree.

• 19:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I love that. So with heavy hearts, um, we're going to bid you adieu now and, uh, hopefully, uh, listening to this conversation or revisiting it, if you heard it prior several years ago, will, uh, bring him more present into your conscious awareness. We are all David Clark, that's true. We miss you, Dave. We love you and you will not be forgotten. So thanks, you guys. I appreciate it. And without further ado, this is me and Dave Clark.

• 19:59Rich Roll?

  Thanks for coming down, man.

• 20:00Speaker 03

  I'm glad to be here.

• 20:01Rich Roll?

  Dude, you made the trip all the way from Colorado down to LA to sit with me, man? I'm so honored by that. I really appreciate it.

• 20:08Speaker 03

  If I'd had more time, I'd run.

• 20:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah. A little bit more time, right? What have you been doing since you've been in LA?

• 20:15Speaker 03

  I've just been kind of hanging out a little bit. I got a chance to go down and meet some folks at a running store, Front Runners, and do a group run there.

• 20:21Rich Roll?

  The one in Brentwood?

• 20:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. Oh, no, actually, I showed up at the one in Brentwood, but I was supposed to be at the one in West Hollywood. So I ended up making it to the right one, though, and got to talk about my book a little bit and run with the group.

• 20:33Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's cool. Do you have a nice turnout of people? Or what was it? Usually those things like, whenever I do that kind of stuff, like, five people show up?

• 20:40Speaker 03

  You know, yeah, I've had both spectrums of the experience, you know, the five and the 50. This one was like, I think it was like 20 people there. It was a pretty good turnout.

• 20:48Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's cool. Did you do a run also? Or you just talked about the book?

• 20:52Speaker 03

  No, we did a run, and I got a 100-miler coming up this Saturday. So I was supposed to do a nice little taper run, and it turned into be like a five-mile race with everyone.

• 21:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, usually, that's what always happens when I do the group runs. Like, a lot of people that don't, you know, they're not ultra-runners, so they go out, they run a lot faster than I run when I'm training. I always get intimidated.

• 21:14Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:14Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 21:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it was just because, like, you know, I don't know, some guy, no one knows who he is, shows up from Colorado, so everyone wants to just kind of flex and test.

• 21:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, here comes Scott Jurick, right? You know?

• 21:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it's hard to not just, you get caught up in it, and you end up running fast.

• 21:30Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 21:30Speaker 03

  It feels good.

• 21:31Rich Roll?

  What's the 100-miler you're getting ready for?

• 21:33Speaker 03

  I'm gonna go out to Havelina, down in Arizona.

• 21:36Rich Roll?

  Nice, man. That should be good.

• 21:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 21:38Rich Roll?

  Have you done, so what races have you done since Badwater 2013?

• 21:43Speaker 03

  Um, well, I did Badwater this year.

• 21:46Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did? I didn't know that.

• 21:47Speaker 03

  Well, actually, it did me. But, yeah, I got, I had, last year was just such a dream come true to get a chance to line up out there and to do it and finish it. And then this year, even with the new course, I wanted to go out and see if I could test myself a little bit against it. And I went out a bit aggressively.

• 22:04Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did, huh?

• 22:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:06Rich Roll?

  Got a little ahead of yourself.

• 22:07Speaker 03

  I seem to learn the same lessons over and over again in life.

• 22:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, I could tell from reading your sobriety story, it's not a, it's not a linear trajectory for you, nor is it for me, but nor is it for most people.

• 22:21Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's true.

• 22:22Rich Roll?

  You know, I was with, I just got back, I was up in the Bay Area for a week. And yesterday afternoon, I did a podcast with Dean Carnazze's, who gave you a wonderful blurb for your book, by the way.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 22:35Rich Roll?

  And we were talking about Bad Water, and he's like, man, I just can't figure that race out. Like, some years I go in, I think I have it totally dialed, and it kicks my butt. And other years, I feel like it's not gonna go well, and then I have my best year. So, he's like, I can't crack that nut.

• 22:50Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's, that's tough. Certainly, he knows a hell of a lot more than I know about that kind of stuff. But I've experienced the same thing. I mean, I was, I was fitter and in better shape, and I think even more prepared mentally than I ever was, but, you know.

• 23:05Rich Roll?

  That's the way ultras go, though.

• 23:06Speaker 03

  It is. It's humbling. It'll smack you down.

• 23:08Rich Roll?

  That's sport, you know? I think it's a sport in general. And, yeah, I mean, one of the things we were, we were talking about yesterday as well is, is the importance of failure. Not just the willingness to fail, but the failure itself, because that's the place from which you can learn and grow. Like, if you had a great race, then what do you take away from that?

• 23:28Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:29Rich Roll?

  Better than I was last year?

• 23:30Speaker 03

  No, that's so true.

• 23:31Rich Roll?

  Bad on the back?

• 23:32Speaker 03

  That's so true. It's, I mean, it's good for the ego, right? You go throw down a PR, and you have a good day. But you never, I don't remember ever saying, you know, wow, everything went great, and I learned so much.

• 23:40Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:41Speaker 03

  It usually happens when everything goes really, really bad. That's when you learn. You're right. Absolutely.

• 23:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like a good stubborn alcoholic.

• 23:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 23:49Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? How has the, the process of, kind of, getting the book out there been for you?

• 23:56Speaker 03

  You know, it's been incredible in every possible way. And, you know, the finish line for me was always finishing the book, writing it, you know? And I never really looked very much beyond that. So, everything that's happened since then over the last couple of months has been, you know... Definitely something that I hadn't anticipated and hadn't spent a lot of time thinking about. So, but I've been very blessed as usual to have some guys like Dean, you know, endorse a book and Marshall, all right, to write the foreword. So that's definitely helped.

• 24:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, of course.

• 24:28Speaker 03

  Get my foot in the door a few places.

• 24:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you got some big, and you got a... You got Tim O'Donnell too, gave you a blur. Marshall wrote the foreword, so you're in good company with those guys, right?

• 24:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. A blessing living in Boulder, too.

• 24:40Rich Roll?

  Of course, right? You throw a rock and you hit a training partner.

• 24:44Speaker 03

  That's right, right. I always say that in Boulder, if you tell everyone you did an Ironman, they won't be impressed. They'll just ask you what your bike split was.

• 24:53Rich Roll?

  I'd be scared to live there.

• 24:56Rich Roll?

  Too many, too many super fit athletes.

• 24:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 24:59Rich Roll?

  How long have you lived there?

• 25:00Speaker 03

  I've been in Colorado for about 20 years and...

• 25:03Rich Roll?

  Right, but most of that was not in Boulder, right?

• 25:05Speaker 03

  No, mostly in the Denver metro area. And I still live in, outside of Boulder, in Lafayette. I live about eight miles outside.

• 25:12Rich Roll?

  But you go and do you, do you find people in Boulder to train with, or are you like a solo guy when it comes to training?

• 25:17Speaker 03

  You know, I'm not surprisingly a man of extremes when it comes to that.

• 25:22Rich Roll?

  Shocking, yeah.

• 25:24Speaker 03

  But I can spend a lot of time just, you know, running by myself and, and, and I can be very social too, you know? I like, I like it all.

• 25:31Rich Roll?

  Like both of them.

• 25:32Speaker 03

  Yeah, I like to be out there in my own head and, and stuff. And also it's good to just, you know, I've definitely benefited greatly from being able to run with guys and girls a lot stronger than me.

• 25:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's, uh, that's, that's what's great about that community, you know? I still, you know, I keep telling my wife, I'm like, "Let's go live in Boulder for a summer, just for a summer." You know, I'm sure I would get just epic training in, you know? I'm more of a lone wolf though. I like to go out by myself, get the quiet time away from the kids and everything. But, but it's good to mix it up with company, I think. Uh, let's, uh, let's play a little game that I know you know well. It's called, uh, "What It Was Like, What Happened, and What It's Like Now."

• 26:13Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 26:13Rich Roll?

  You know that game, right?

• 26:14Speaker 03

  Yeah. Well, what it was like, man, that's, that's tough. Um, it was, it was pretty bad, you know? It got, it got really, really dark and, and really, really ugly. And, you know, I just kinda, you know, created this, uh, this place for myself where, you know, this whole image of who I was. And, and of course, you know, I found a way to, uh, put alcohol and, and, and using in the middle of that identity. And so it never seemed odd, you know, to, to be in that place. And, and I had, uh, you know, I had like all of us, a tough childhood and, and a lot of things that were, you know, disturbing me in there. And, and I was running away from it. And, um, you

• 26:55Speaker 03

  know, at first it was chasing the, kind of the concept of normalcy, you know, and just wanting to feel attached to society and, and owning a home, which seemed really almost impossible to me at one point in my life. And, and then starting a business and being successful in that. And all these things that I was, I was chasing just never really made me happy, you know? So, um, I tried to, uh, silence, you know, those, those, um, those guiding voices, if you will, from the outside in. And, you know, as I did that and as I went along, um, my chemical abuse, my substance abuse, uh, it just got darker and darker. And it went from partying and having fun and goofing off to, you know, just sitting by myself, you

• 27:37Speaker 03

  know, in, in, in the dark and at night and drinking. And it's funny, it was like all these things that I used, used as, um, you know, levels or barometers to, to gauge my drinking and, and how I was normal. Well, at least I'm not drinking in the morning. And at least I'm not, you know, waking up in the bushes somewhere, you know? And one by one, all those things kind of ticked off. Yeah, like, well, yeah, but, you know.

• 27:58Rich Roll?

  But there's always somebody lower.

• 28:00Speaker 03

  There is.

• 28:00Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? And, and you could, you can spin that wheel forever. And I found reading, you know, that aspect of your story to be, you know, really profound for me. I mean, I emotionally related, uh, with it completely. You know, the circumstances of some of your stories is very different from mine, but it's the same story, you know? And, and what I, what I, what really touched me the most was how you described The sort of, you know, the drinking in isolation, you know, I think that's something that a lot of people can't really grasp. I think a normal person will read these stories in your book and they'll think, you know, I don't, you know, how does somebody do that? Like, I don't understand, you know, and I'm reading and I'm right with you, you know? It's like, you know, I couldn't wait to get home from the party so then I could really

• 28:43Rich Roll?

  start my drinking, you know, so I could, that's when the good drinking starts, you know, and, and all the kind of shame that comes with that and, you know, that, that progressive withdrawal from society. And, you know, as you sink down, then you're, you start surrounding yourself with lower companions, but you always surround yourself with the other people that are doing the kind of same thing that you're doing. So you never have like an objective mirror to reflect the reality of your behavior.

• 29:10Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely. Yeah, it's funny because, I mean, how could you expect someone who's, who's never been there to understand when even going back and, and reading it and reliving it, I go, how the hell did I not know that I was just totally out of control?

• 29:25Rich Roll?

  But you did know. I mean, you knew when you were 13, you know, you knew on some unconscious level that this was probably going to be a problem down the line. And I, I remember sort of harboring that kind of semi-conscious thought, like you're not really aware, like, oh, I'm an alcoholic, but you have that little tickle, like, early on where you're like, yeah, this might not go so well.

• 29:46Speaker 03

  No, you're right. It wasn't so much as not knowing as, as like, just how could I not, you know, be actively aware of how destructive it was. But no, you're, you're so right. No, I always knew that what I was doing wasn't exactly normal.

• 30:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, drink when it's good, drink when it's bad. And what's also interesting is that, you know, in the midst of like a pretty insane drinking career, you're still able to like, put together this amazing business and succeed and make tons of money. I mean, you must be an unbelievable salesman. Because, you know, I think that, the kind of outsider perspective would be, if you're drinking like that, there's no way you can function. But the alcoholic is a very resourceful individual, you know, very scrappy. And I thought it was, I thought it was very interesting how you described how you were able to kind of keep all the plates spinning for as long as you did.

• 30:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that the picture that a lot of people have of the alcoholic is woefully inaccurate. You know, like you said, it's, you know, it's not the bomb sitting on the street corner, you know, you know, drinking and sitting around in his own filth, although we can all end up there if we stay on long enough.

• 30:55Rich Roll?

  It's headed, it's headed that way.

• 30:57Speaker 03

  But no, it's, it's, it's the guy that's, you know, doing a pretty reasonable job at creating an illusion of what his life looks like. You know, and, and getting farther and farther away from that illusion as he goes, you know, deeper and deeper in.

• 31:11Rich Roll?

  Right, there's this great disconnect and there's this growing awareness that, yeah, I'm, this is, this is a problem, you know, you're getting into trouble, all that, I mean, you know, you know, you know that this is not good, you're powerless to stop. And to compensate for that, you go overtime on work and all those other things because you can, that helps put the facade up that your life is actually functional.

• 31:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, and it, and it gives you, you know, proof that you are okay. You know, it's like, hey, well, at least I'm doing this, you know, and I'm okay, you know.

• 31:41Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and that kind of fueling of the ego, like there's that episode in the book where you're, you go into that huge pitch meeting, right, and you have, you have, you know, brass balls and, you know, you kind of like throw down the gauntlet on this deal, like in a pretty risky way. And you get what you wanted out of that. So what I took away from that story is sort of this weird thing that I think only the alcoholic can truly understand, which is having this huge ego, like thinking you're, you're more entitled and better than everybody else, but also simultaneously harboring this like horrible shame that you're a piece of shit and you're worse than everybody, completely worthless and, you know,

• 32:23Rich Roll?

  shouldn't even be breathing air. Like, only the alcoholic can like entertain those two thoughts at the same time.

• 32:29Speaker 03

  Yeah, the egomaniac with the inferiority complex.

• 32:32Rich Roll?

  Exactly, exactly.

• 32:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, and the funny thing is like looking back and reliving it and writing it and You know, I think maybe at some point I thought, you know, I was doing a really good job at controlling other people and circumstances and manipulating my environment. But really, it was just me that I was manipulating and controlling. And those other things, you know, those could have happened no matter what, just because, you know, I was creating value in the industry that I was in. And I didn't have to go in and totally try to manipulate and control. But you don't know any other way when you're now, I have to control everything that's going on right now. And it's just, it's obviously, it's bullshit. It's impossible. You can't even control yourself. How are you going to control everyone else?

• 33:14Rich Roll?

  Right. Let alone controlling nine 11 and then, you know, the market crashing and everything that happened to your business as a result. Like, all of these kind of things that happened to you, things are progressively being taken away from you. You're holding on stronger and stronger to the drinking, but also developing this awareness that, you know, you're going to have to stop.

• 33:32Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah. It was, it was an interesting time, you know. It would have been really, you know, I've always had this kind of like alarm bell, you know, that can, that can go off, even when, when I was falling farther and farther down the hole. There's all these levels where these alarm bells would go off and, and I would sense that I was, you know, dropping down another level. And that, and that was certainly one of them. And, you know, it was really tempting and alluring to blame the loss of my business on nine 11 itself and what happened in the economic aftermath. And it was something that I just couldn't really let myself do because I knew it was going to, to crush me and send me even farther, farther down.

• 34:17Speaker 03

  So I just tried to move on, you know?

• 34:20Rich Roll?

  Well, playing the victim is, is always the easy way out. And the alcoholic is no stranger to playing the victim.

• 34:26Speaker 03

  No, no.

• 34:28Rich Roll?

  But I, I thought that your wife showed tremendous, or now your ex-wife, but your wife at the time showed tremendous patience with you. I mean, she had to be just coming unglued while this was going on.

• 34:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, um, that's a, that's a tough subject. Um, she was, I mean, she was and is an amazing person. She's, she's incredibly patient, but our relationship was, was very odd and, and very hard to really, um, put in perspective, you know? We, um, grew apart, no, no shock there with, with my behavior and, and over those years, but, you know, we never had any arguments about my drinking, you know? There, there was never that, that place. It was obviously pushing us apart. It was obviously creating a lot of damage in our relationship, but it wa- it wasn't presenting itself as a problem. It wasn't a, a topic of conversation. Um, I think probably if I had to be really honest, it was because she was afraid of

• 35:26Speaker 03

  engaging me in the debate because, you know, I'm, I'm a reasonably good debater, especially when drunk and passionate, and I think she just had to step back and, and try to let me figure it out. And, uh, she's, she's amazing and, and we're still really good friends today, but, um, yeah, she's, she's something else.

• 35:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think the, the most, um, heart-wrenching, uh, part of the book for me was the night that you stay up, uh, on Christmas Eve drinking super late and you're just out of your mind and then you realize like you haven't wrapped these presents and, you know, you're just unable to kind of get that job done and, and the presents end up with, you know, masking tape on them or just kind of looking like a mess and, and to kind of shame the next morning of, of, of that dawning on you and realizing that. I mean, I think if there was ever a moment where your wife would be like, "I can't, I can't, you know, I can't have this anymore," that would have been it.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  Yeah. You know, it's funny, like, of all the, you know how it is, like, when, when you go about- You know, when I started to write the book, I made a deal with myself that I wasn't gonna hold anything back that I thought would be too embarrassing, or, you know, things I wrote about it, like, you know, driving drunk and stuff like that. I didn't wanna put that in there, cuz I didn't wanna, I know the stigma that's attached to that, and I didn't want people chasing after me. But, I was like, you know, I'm gonna put what's in there, and then, if it's too much, I just won't release the book. But, I'll have a accurate product when I'm done. And, so you go through all these moments, these low moments, you know, and I chose a handful of thousands, you know, and I tend to choose the ones that

• 37:03Speaker 03

  were, for whatever reason, I was present enough at that time to remember it. But the reality is, most of them, I didn't remember, and I had no idea what happened the night before. But, of all the things that I talked about in the book, the other addicts that I talked to, always point out the Christmas present story, and not some of the other ones, like, you know, it's that one. And I think because we've all just been in that place where you're so drunk, you're so out of it, that you can't do this stupidly easy task. And your brain knows you should be able to do it, and it becomes more and more frustrating, and more and more shameful, and humiliating, and everything all wrapped

• 37:47Speaker 03

  into one. And, I, if I could, you know, if I would've written the story as a script, that would've been my low. You know, that would've been the moment that I rose up from the ashes and created a new life, because I don't know that I've ever felt less of a human being than I did that Christmas morning. But, I kept going.

• 38:06Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, I think it highlights, well, there's this idea that the alcoholic will harbor, that, you know, hey, leave me alone, I'm just, you know, I'm allowed to do what I want to myself, I'm not hurting anybody, I'm just, you know, but, that episode really, sort of punctuates, you know, the fact that there are other people involved, in particular, like, young children on a very important day, which I think elevates the emotional kind of impact of something like that.

• 38:35Rich Roll?

  But you know, I related to, I related to the emotions completely. And, and I related to the kind of, you know, roller coaster ride of saying, yeah, I gotta get my life together, it's time to get sober, and then just not being able to do it, or that memory so quickly fading, and then you're back to doing what you're always doing, and how long it took before, you know, I was really able to get to that place to really surrender and be willing to accept help and do the work. But, you know, my lowest moment was a year and a half before I got sober, you know? And if I was writing the narrative, you know, and the movie script, that would have been the moment, you know, but that's not the way it works.

• 39:16Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:17Rich Roll?

  You know, that's not the way it works. You're ready when you're ready, and it doesn't always make sense, and it's not always logical.

• 39:23Speaker 03

  And then, you know, absolutely right, and then there's that other aspect too, that I think like a lot of my friends who, who haven't dealt with addiction in their own lives, think that, you know, my sobriety date was August 5th in 2005, and that they think that maybe if it wouldn't have been that day, it would have been August 10th, or maybe in September, but I was, you know, that everything was pushing towards that point, but you know, the reality is that if I wouldn't have jumped off then, I could still be there now.

• 39:49Rich Roll?

  You might be drinking now, yeah, or you might be dead.

• 39:51Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's those little cracks in the door, those precious moments where you have just the slightest sliver of willingness, you know, but if you don't act on that then, who knows if that ever, you're ever blessed with that.

• 40:04Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:05Rich Roll?

  Opportunity again, you know, it really is a precious thing. The other thing that, that I thought was really impactful was this idea that, you know, the alcoholic is always trying to solve the problem with their mind, but they're not aware that their mind is, is being poisoned by chemicals, right? So your perception of the world is altered, and you're trying to solve a problem from, you know, from a place that's not healthy, you know, but you don't have the objectivity to see that, because everything you're processing, everything that you're taking in through your eyes and your ears, is going through this machine that is broken.

• 40:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 40:45Rich Roll?

  Right? And so it's impossible to have any objectivity on the reality of your situation, which makes it all the more crucial. Like, you know, in recovery, you hear about surrender, you hear about that willingness to ask for help. And, you know, without the intervention of a third party to kind of come into that equation, it's extremely difficult. It's like a miracle that anybody ever gets sober.

• 41:08Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. Like you abusing your brain over and over again and killing your brain cells and then trying to use your warped brain to convince yourself to not keep drinking.

• 41:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 41:21Speaker 03

  It is an absolute miracle. And we all know, those of us that have made it out, that we got lucky. You know, we just, I don't know why, but why it happened on that day, but it did. And, you know, along with that comes a huge sense of gratitude, you know, and a huge sense of just, you know, bewilderment. You know, I mean, you look at it and you're like, I don't know how I ever, I don't know how I ever got that low, and I don't know how the hell I ever got out.

• 41:50Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. The other thing that I loved was how you describe sleep and the lack thereof. And I don't hear that really discussed that often. But for me, like, I can remember so vividly, like, I never just slept. Either I passed out, or I was tossing and turning with bedspins and throwing up, or, you know, trying to go a couple of days without drinking. And the sleepless nights that accompany that are some of the most painful nights I've ever had, like the hallucinations and the, you know, the sweating in the sheets and just never, ever being able to just get a legitimate night of sleep without being altered.

• 42:31Speaker 03

  Yeah, there comes this like crazy time warp, right? Where you feel like you don't have enough time to adequately abuse and worship your drug. And you don't ever just...

• 42:46Speaker 03

  Retire for the evening, you just run out of time and or or your body just shuts you down before before you get to wherever it is you're searching for. And yeah, it's that's like you said, there's no sleep. There's no like, okay, the night's over and now I've had my fill and I'm gonna, you know, just go in.

• 43:02Rich Roll?

  Go to sleep.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  Go to sleep.

• 43:03Rich Roll?

  When I watch movies and TV and I see people like drinking and then they just go home and go to bed, I'm like, how does that work?

• 43:09Speaker 03

  Yeah. Even even the friends are out there and they get home at 2am and go to bed.

• 43:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I don't understand how that that works at all. Like either I have to drink enough until I completely blackout to go to sleep.

• 43:22Speaker 03

  I would the last thing I would do, no matter if it was 3 o'clock in the morning or what time it was and how much I had to drink is I would pour, I would take like a rocks glass or a juice glass and and just fill it full of 90 proof something and carry it up to bed with me. And I'm not going to feel any benefit or effect of that. It was more of a possession thing. I just needed to have it with me. And and half the time I didn't even drink it. I'd go and set it down in the nightstand next to me and and I could sleep because I knew it was there. But it was nonstop drink until the moment that consciousness left. And I was so aware of and I talked about in the book of that first time when I just slept.

• 44:03Rich Roll?

  Right. It's a miracle. Yeah, like when you're like, oh, my God.

• 44:06Speaker 03

  I have never done this.

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, since I was like 12.

• 44:10Speaker 03

  I didn't know what this was.

• 44:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, that was very palpable, the way you described that. I mean, when you go out and like yesterday, when you talk to people or, you know, you kind of interact with people that have read the book, you know, normal people, non alcoholics, non addicts, I mean, what is their reaction to reading, you know, the kind of trunkalog aspect of the book?

• 44:33Speaker 03

  You know, it's a mixed bag, but I think, you know, it's the one thing I hear a lot is I'm glad you're still alive, you know, and and it's it's an interesting thing to hear from people, especially people that don't know you and have never met you. And it's it's it's quite common. And it just drives home that point of, you know, looking from the outside and how destructive and how how terrible that behavior was. And I think one of the most surprising things that that's come out of this, you know, I I kind of expected that just very much in the same way when I read your book. I knew where you were, you know, and it triggered that, those emotions in me and I could

• 45:18Speaker 03

  feel like the weight of the glass you were holding or the thoughts that you were thinking. I expected the book to reach other people who'd been in similar circumstances, but what I haven't expected or didn't expect was some of the family members. And I had a lady, I recently ran a road marathon in Leadville. And a lady came out to the finish line and was waiting for me to finish and she wanted to tell me about her son who had just passed away and he had OD'd on heroin and he was 26 years old. And she just wanted to tell me that the book, reading it, gave her some insight as to what her son might have been feeling and what he might have been thinking.

• 46:00Speaker 03

  Because from the outside in, a lot of people just think it's, you know, indulgent, you know, behavior and it's, and it is, and it is, it's selfish and it's indulgent. But, you know, we could talk for hours and hours on whether it's a disease and all these things that are such hot topics, but the bottom line is, once the addict's in, he's in and it doesn't really matter, you know, how you got there or what happened. And I had the same exact thing happen at a gym, I own a gym in Lafayette, and I had someone just show up whose wife had had back surgery, I talk about my back surgery in the book, and she was prescribed a whole trough of narcotics and she got addicted and she overdosed and she died. And it left her family just-

• 46:42Rich Roll?

  Like Oxy or what was it?

• 46:44Speaker 03

  I never asked exactly what they had her on, but yeah, I think that, and it's my, it's my hope that it continues to go that way and it continues to offer some sort of, you know, understanding or peace for people who are trying to figure out why a loved one is so lost and so much struggling.

• 47:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think it accomplishes that. I mean, you did a very deft job of describing the powerlessness and the desperation, the desire to change, but, you know, the inability to and the shame that accompanies that because I think if you, if you don't, you know, if you haven't had- A close encounter with somebody who's struggling with this disease or condition, however you want to qualify it, it is easy to go like, why can't they just snap out of it? Like, what's, I don't get it, you know, just stop. But it's so much more complicated than that. And you really painted this, you know, pastiche of the emotional landscape that accompanies it. And it was painful to read, but I also, I'm like, yeah, I'm

• 47:49Rich Roll?

  right there with you, you know. But I remember very vividly going to see that movie Leaving Las Vegas with a buddy of mine. And I'm just watching Nicolas Cage do his thing. And I'm like, yeah, man, let's do it. Like, looks like a good time to me. Like, I'm like, yep, I'd do that too. Yeah, I could see, yeah, I could see why he'd make that decision. You know, like, my friend is just horrified at the whole thing, you know. And I was like, oh, yeah, like, and this was before I got sober, you know, it was very evident, like, oh, I think differently, you know, I'm seeing the world through a different lens.

• 48:20Speaker 03

  Yeah. Did you watch Flight?

• 48:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 48:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 48:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. My friend, John Gaitons, wrote that book.

• 48:26Speaker 03

  Oh.

• 48:27Rich Roll?

  I mean, wrote that script. And, you know, he's a friend that I know from recovery, obviously. I mean, he's writing that from, probably based, you know, on some of his own experiences, but in very, very powerful, you know, people think it's about a, you know, an airplane crash or whatever. No, this is, this is an incredibly potent story about what it's like to be an alcoholic, a story very well told.

• 48:49Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was honestly one of those people. I was absolutely blindsided by the movie. I went with a friend and I was expecting a movie about.

• 48:56Rich Roll?

  You don't know what it's gonna be.

• 48:57Speaker 03

  No, I had no idea. And I was, I had tears spilling out of my eyes, rolling down my cheeks the whole time. I was, it was, it was very emotional. And I think they did a really good job at showing that, you know, it's not a matter of what you're gonna do, you know, you're gonna drink, it's gonna happen. It's just a matter of whatever, what you're doing at the same time.

• 49:15Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. And also, the way that you describe kind of your trigger situations, like that first time you had to go to the airport, you know, and what airports represented for you. I mean, for me, it's like hotels, or like going to a foreign city where no one knows me, you know, and you're like, you know, I could, I could get away with something here, no one would know. And like, that demon on your shoulder is right there. And, and trying to kind of prepare for those situations, the amount of like, Work, you know, recovery work that has to go into getting ready to, you know, walk through a scenario that you're so programmed to drink or use and is, is, you know, is challenging and like just, God, you know, just reading you, feeling you like going into

• 49:57Rich Roll?

  that airport and the guys that you're with are at the bar and they're, they're encouraging you to drink like, ah, so, it's so brutal.

• 50:05Speaker 03

  I honestly have no idea how I made it for that, through that first two weeks.

• 50:08Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 50:09Speaker 03

  I mean, of all the times that I had everything perfectly aligned for me to get clean and I didn't do it, you know, I had the time, I had the time away from work, I had no stress, had all these things and it just didn't matter. And then, you know, once I finally did make the decision, everything kind of aligned to, to screw me up and knock me off track and it just didn't matter at that point. And, but that's the way it works.

• 50:29Rich Roll?

  It reminded me of the story in the big book where, where Bill W. is newly sober and he has to go out of town and he's in this hotel and he's so close to drinking and he just goes to that payphone and calls the hospital and says, "Do you have any alcoholics, you know, that I can go talk to?"

• 50:44Speaker 03

  Right.

• 50:45Rich Roll?

  And that saves him and he's like, if that payphone wasn't there, he was a goner.

• 50:49Speaker 03

  You know, and it's funny because like I'm talking to, to family members and stuff who are just really struggling and in the whole enabling addicts and stuff like that is something that is just so hard and, and occupies so much of my time and talking to other people and I'm dealing with it right now with my own brother.

• 51:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I wanted to get into that a little bit.

• 51:06Speaker 03

  And, you know, it's, you have to be there for them and you have to love them, but the point being that once the alcoholic truly makes up their mind that they're done and it's real, ain't nothing gonna stop. You know, so we have this tendency that, you know, the family members are like, "Oh, if I say the wrong thing, if I do the wrong thing, if I look at him the wrong way, it's gonna screw it all up." And the reality is, no, no, there's, there's nothing you can do to make him use. He's gonna do that all by himself and there's nothing you can do to, to get him better. Once, once he makes up his mind, he'll need support, he'll need help, he'll need all these things, but nothing's gonna stop him, you know, that has to come from inside.

• 51:45Rich Roll?

  So your brother is out there still?

• 51:47Speaker 03

  He is, he is and, um...

• 51:49Rich Roll?

  Older, older brother, right?

• 51:50Speaker 03

  Younger brother.

• 51:51Rich Roll?

  Oh, younger.

• 51:51Speaker 03

  Ten years.

• 51:52Rich Roll?

  Oh, ten years younger, wow.

• 51:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, I have, I have three brothers. I have one older and two, two younger. And two of us have the addiction... Demons chasing us around and two of us don't.

• 52:01Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 52:02Speaker 03

  Go figure.

• 52:03Rich Roll?

  And so how is, you know, how do you navigate that? Like, what is your communication like, if any? Like, for somebody who's out there listening, who's dealing with the same thing, as a family member?

• 52:12Speaker 03

  It's fucked up, man. I mean, it's really hard because I hear my own advice echoing in my ear. And I know it's right because other people have told me it. And it's just part of the truths of addiction. But I feel the same thing other people feel. I want to, you know, help him out, you know? And I want to believe, you know, that, you know, I can send him 20 bucks and he's not going to buy heroin with it. You know, that, you know, all those same things. But I know, I know I can't. And, but honestly, it's, it's almost like you would think that being an addict would give you a certain amount of insight in helping another addict. And that's true. But really, it's, it's almost unrelated.

• 52:56Speaker 03

  I feel like what I'm going through as a family member, trying to help my brother, is almost entirely unrelated to what I went through as an addict myself. It allows me a window to understand what he's thinking and to have some empathy. But it's, it's such a difficult experience. And, and it's, it's up there with one of the toughest things I've ever gone through in my entire life.

• 53:19Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, that's interesting that you say that because the cornerstone of recovery is one alcoholic talking to another. And certainly, you've endured enough to be able to have, you know, common ground with your brother, to have that dialogue. But what you can't do is gift him with the willingness that's required for him to even listen to you, let alone take action on anything that you're telling him.

• 53:41Speaker 03

  Yeah, and, and absolutely true. And, and maybe I should be a little more clear. It's like, I don't, in dealing with just me and another alcoholic, it's an entirely different dynamic in me dealing with my brother. Because I'm feeling

• 53:54Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right.

• 53:55Speaker 03

  That emotional component.

• 53:56Rich Roll?

  Familial bond and all of that.

• 53:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, and that's definitely clouds it and makes it really hard. And it's given me a, a whole new way to understand, you know, what the family members are going through with, with their loved ones. Because it's, it's real easy to just You know, to be in that sponsor role and say, well, yeah, I know what your problem is. You haven't screwed up your life enough yet, you know? It's not bad enough for you yet.

• 54:18Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 54:18Speaker 03

  As soon as it gets bad.

• 54:19Rich Roll?

  You need to go out and drink a little more.

• 54:20Speaker 03

  Right. And to do that with your brother is really hard.

• 54:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 54:23Speaker 03

  Especially when they're calling and they're saying, I'm gonna be on the street and, you know, can you take me in and all this stuff?

• 54:29Rich Roll?

  And you're thinking, if I don't, then, and he dies or something happens, you know, I have to carry that with me. Yeah, you can't be that dispassionate, you know, sounding board. Because, yeah, you're dealing with other people at an arm's length. You're like, here's what you do. Do it or don't. I'm not attached to it.

• 54:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 54:46Rich Roll?

  Here's a solution. And then you, you're not thinking about it the rest of the day.

• 54:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it's been a process because that's kind of the way it's had to go. And so our relationship isn't real good right now, you know? But I was just telling my mom that, you know, he's, he's gotta, he's gotta be the architect of his own recovery. And when that happens, there's nothing we won't do to help him.

• 55:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 55:11Speaker 03

  But I can't tell him how, I mean, I can tell him how I did it. I can share with him how I did it. I can tell him what I thought, what I felt, and point him in the right direction. But ultimately, you know, he's, the truth comes from within, right? It's, it's not something we find from the outside and bring into our lives. It's, it's something that was always there that we just kind of discover.

• 55:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and I think that it's important for family members out there who are, who are dealing with this to understand that that's very different from trying to cajole a family member into getting sober to get you off their back.

• 55:45Speaker 03

  Right.

• 55:46Rich Roll?

  That's not willingness. That's a temporary Band-Aid that will not hold ultimately. I mean, there's, of course, there's the, the occasion where, you know, you do an intervention and somebody begrudgingly goes into rehab and then they get it when they're in there. But the more typical case is, you know, it doesn't stick because they're not ready. Because it's not being driven by their own desire. It's being driven by the fear and the love of family members who are desperate.

• 56:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 56:14Rich Roll?

  You know? So it's complicated. It's hard, man.

• 56:18Speaker 03

  It is. We're crazy creatures.

• 56:21Rich Roll?

  So what was that moment in August that tipped the scale for you?

• 56:26Speaker 03

  You know, um, it was just, uh, I think it was, we kinda talked about before, you know, alarm bells, you know, and I kinda was aware of each time my, my drinking and my, my use was going to a new level of destruction. And, and, um, that morning, there was just something really heavy about it. And I think that, um, I think that that was going to be a significant day for me, one way or the other. And I think I was gonna either entirely give up and just go, go about the process of, of ending it, you know, maybe slowly, maybe quickly, or I was gonna stand up and start to fight.

• 57:06Speaker 03

  And, um, and I just felt like I had that, that one, one, one shot, that one little glimpse, and I just jumped on before I could think about it. I, I've related it to jumping out of a car, you know, like I was driving in a car and I thought I was driving the car and taking it to all these nice places. And one day I realized I was in the passenger side and I had no control over where the car was going. And I kinda hung out there for a while too. And it's like, okay, well, we'll just see where this thing's going. And then that, that day, I just opened the door and I jumped out and before I could even think about it. Like, all the times I tried to, you know, wrap it into this perfect thing that made sense and, you know, wrestle every demon out into a perfectly, you know, understandable thing and, and it never worked, obviously.

• 57:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 57:50Speaker 03

  So I had to trust the process. And, you know, it's kinda just like talking about running a hundred miles or something like that. You can't get to that place where you're doing some run and trying to convince yourself why it's a good idea, because it's not a good idea.

• 58:02Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 58:03Speaker 03

  You just gotta run. And that's, that's what I did with the recovery. I just, I just took the moment and kept moving forward and...

• 58:09Rich Roll?

  Right. And, and the, you know, what you learn in recovery is that you're always in the passenger seat, ultimately. And it's, it's when you think that you're in the driver's seat, or you try to take the wheel, that you end up veering off into the wrong direction. And that's a, that's a, you know, kind of an ephemeral idea that we could spend hours talking about, but, but just, that's part of the surrender of realizing like, not only am I not in control, like, there are very few things that I actually can control.

• 58:37Speaker 03

  Right.

• 58:38Rich Roll?

  One of them is whether I drink or not today.

• 58:40Speaker 03

  Right now.

• 58:41Rich Roll?

  But most things, you know, are pretty much beyond my reach.

• 58:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 58:44Rich Roll?

  And it's interesting that, that the day that you had that moment was not, you know, after a car wreck or being put in jail. I mean, it was similar with me, like... It was a really uneventful morning, like in terms of like events that had happened to me. You know, nothing, you know, I was hung over, but it wasn't on the heels of anything super traumatic. But there was just, it was different. You know, I woke up and I was like,

• 59:08Speaker 03

  I'm gonna die.

• 59:09Rich Roll?

  I'm ready. Yeah, like I'm ready or, or, or yeah, there's no turning back.

• 59:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 59:14Rich Roll?

  You know, it was very inexplicable. It wasn't, you know, unicorns and rainbows and angels. But you know, I still would qualify it as, you know, a spiritual experience.

• 59:25Speaker 03

  No doubt.

• 59:25Rich Roll?

  Because it was, it, it came out of nowhere. It wasn't, it wasn't triggered by any particular event. You know, it was triggered by the accumulation of many years and terrible things. But that little gift of willingness just sort of materialized.

• 59:41Speaker 03

  It's funny because I, I asked for help that day and I'd probably asked for help before, but it was always just some sort of exercise and melodrama, you know, and, and, and wanting to be pitied more than anything.

• 59:52Rich Roll?

  Alcoholics are good at that.

• 59:53Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah. But I, I meant it. I meant it that time. I felt that the realness that I was not able to do this anymore. And I was totally powerless, you know, I was, I was in over my head. I was getting my ass kicked and it wasn't gonna get any better. And, and I felt myself giving up. I felt that was, I think that was the most scary thing is I felt myself like I always kinda had a little bit of fight. You know, I'm gonna figure this out one day. And I always had envisioned that, you know, there would be a big intervention and they'd send me off to rehab and I'd come back and everything would be great, you know? And, but I felt, I, all of that was gone, you know, I didn't even have any, any visions of getting better anymore. And I didn't like that feeling. I didn't like the idea of giving up.

• 1:00:36Rich Roll?

  But you had never been to an AA meeting before. It wasn't like you had kind of made fits and starts or tried.

• 1:00:42Speaker 03

  Oh, no, I'd been to a lot of AA meetings.

• 1:00:43Rich Roll?

  Oh, you had? Okay.

• 1:00:44Speaker 03

  In fact, usually what would happen is I would, there'd be one of those, those bad days, like that should be your bottom. You know, I'd wake up and not remember where my car was and, and, you know, just have all that.

• 1:00:55Rich Roll?

  That's not so bad. That's every day.

• 1:00:56Speaker 03

  No, it really wasn't.

• 1:01:00Speaker 03

  But or like the the time I talked about in the book where I was vomiting out of my truck window, driving home. That should have been, that should have been my last day, you know. I should have said, oh shit, I didn't kill anybody today. That's that's good. Let's jump off this roller coaster now. But um, I would have one of those mornings and I would and I would wake up and I'd go to AA that night and I'd go, see, I knew it. I don't have a problem. I don't have anything in common with any of these people, you know. These are the guys with the problem. And I would, it was like an affirmation or an excuse to go drink some more. And I briefly do talk about in there where I talked about the time I really did go to a meeting. And I found what I did have in common with all those guys, which is, you know, alcohol, obviously, namely.

• 1:01:44Speaker 03

  It was, uh, it was the same experience we talked about with sleep. It's like, how could you do something over and over again and never experience it? And I'd been to probably fifteen or twenty AA meetings and they just never meant anything to me. I mean, I think I tried to do the ninety and ninety like five or six different times. Oh, yeah. And I think I made three or four days. And then I'd be like, what am I doing? I own a company, you know, this is fucking bullshit.

• 1:02:06Rich Roll?

  I was court ordered, so I did it for that reason. And I was just, yeah, it was okay and I was well intentioned when I went. I was gonna get sober, you know, but then it just, I was kind of a tourist. Like, I intellectualized the whole thing. Like, I get it, I understand, like, I'm not gonna do all this writing stuff down, I don't need to. Like, I can make that list in my head. So I've done that, yeah, I've done that, on to the next thing, like, I've solved this problem. And of course, that didn't work, you know. But you have to have your, you know, you gotta go through all those experiments, I think.

• 1:02:43Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:02:43Rich Roll?

  And I think people, you know, a lot of people out there don't, they don't know that. They don't know how nonlinear the the journey to recovery is for, you know, ninety-nine percent of the people that are sober out there. They think, oh, they go to rehab and they're fine, or they go to AA and everything changes, or a therapist, or whatever, you know, version it is. But it's usually, you know, a lot of, you know, ups and downs and relapses and, you know, people are always... You know, surprised when somebody relapses. But that's the natural state of the alcoholic. The miracle is that all those days that they didn't drink, you know, they're like, they're wired to drink.

• 1:03:26Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:27Rich Roll?

  We're wired to drink. So every day that you don't is the gift.

• 1:03:31Speaker 03

  Absolutely. I just had nine years and it's a good start.

• 1:03:35Rich Roll?

  It's amazing. Congrats, man.

• 1:03:36Speaker 03

  It's a good start.

• 1:03:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's fantastic. Congratulations. Very cool. So let's talk about the weight thing.

• 1:03:42Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:03:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so, I mean, you got fat.

• 1:03:46Speaker 03

  I was fat as hell, man.

• 1:03:47Rich Roll?

  Three hundred and twenty pounds.

• 1:03:50Speaker 03

  Three twenty, yeah. Yeah, and I.

• 1:03:53Rich Roll?

  I can't, I mean, looking at you now, it's really hard to picture that. I mean, I saw the pictures in the book, but, you know, you were a big boy.

• 1:04:00Speaker 03

  Yes, I was ultra before I knew it had anything to do with running, man. Eating, drinking, whatever, man. And it's funny because I have people say to me, you know, isn't all that running bad for your knees? And I always say, you know, waiting in line for my third Big Mac weighing three hundred and twenty pounds was bad for my knees.

• 1:04:17Speaker 03

  But yeah, I, you know, food was the same thing, you know, I mean, the process was, was pretty much identical, you know, between what was going on with my weight and what was going on with my drinking. And I didn't think about food as anything other than making me feel good, you know, that's what it was for. And even though I knew better, some intellectually, I knew better. I mean, I could, I could have written it out for you and told you exactly how all this stuff works, but it didn't matter because that's not how I saw food. And, and it's funny because I talk a little bit about there and that, that I had this, this concept of food and who was thin and who was fat. And I had it all, of course, figured out. I had everything figured out. I knew exactly how everything worked, right?

• 1:04:56Rich Roll?

  But. Let me tell you how it is.

• 1:04:58Speaker 03

  But I would see.

• 1:04:59Rich Roll?

  Standing at three hundred and twenty pounds and like with a fifth of, you know, bourbon.

• 1:05:04Speaker 03

  I got this figured out. Well, you know, that's interesting because I remember telling my dad, and you know how it works, like your family members, they want to let you off the hook, right? They don't want, you know, a lot of times, you know, for, for the, the high bottomers, if you will, the ones that didn't end up on the street, you know, um, especially if you've had a, a level of success at some point in your life, your family wants to believe, they want to let you off the hook. And they don't want to think you have a problem and, and you, you drink too much, obviously. You need to stop that, but there's nothing wrong with you, you know?

• 1:05:32Rich Roll?

  Well, that because then it becomes a reflection of them.

• 1:05:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, but I told my dad once, I was like, you know, I used to have this, this concept of like, well, yeah, I'm overweight and yeah, I drink too much, but other than that, I got life figured out.

• 1:05:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:05:46Speaker 03

  And I'm like, I realized the stupidity and the insanity of that now, you know? And I like to say, you know, I wasn't overweight, I wasn't an alcoholic, I was broken. I was a broken human being, the, the food, the alcohol, that was a symptom. You know, I, I didn't know how to live life at all. Had no idea how to live life, had no idea how to be happy. I had no idea how to sit and just be still. And, and the, the food and the drugs and the alcohol was just something I could do in the meantime, because I couldn't be still.

• 1:06:17Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's the other thing that, that, that I think a lot of people aren't really fully in touch with, that, that alcohol is the solution for the alcoholic until it's the problem. And the alcohol and the effects of alcohol on the alcoholic are symptomatic, you know, manifestation of a disease that's really kind of a spiritual malady. It's like there's something wrong with this person. Drinking alcohol or taking drugs solves that temporarily until it stops working. And the drive to use is, is the kind of, uh, confused path, you know, of the diseased individual to solve this problem because they don't have any other answer. And recovery is about.

• 1:07:02Rich Roll?

  You know, blazing this frightening trail of trying to repair this broken soul. You know, that's what it, that's what it really is.

• 1:07:10Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:07:10Rich Roll?

  And, and you know, the, the running and the journey that you've been on, I mean, those are kind of outward manifestations of this path towards healing, this path towards wholeness, this path towards self-knowledge, self-understanding of, of putting those pieces back together.

• 1:07:26Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, undoubtedly.

• 1:07:28Rich Roll?

  You know, and that's what I see. I mean, I'm sure a lot of people are like, well, the running, you just transferred all your addiction to the running.

• 1:07:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:07:34Rich Roll?

  You know, so, all right, what's your take on? So many times I have people in recovery who have become ultra-athletes, so I have to ask the question. I had Charlie Engel on, we talked about, you know, like, it's gonna come up. So I'm interested, everybody has a different answer to the question, so how do you?

• 1:07:50Speaker 03

  Did I trade addictions?

• 1:07:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:51Speaker 03

  That one?

• 1:07:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, that one. You know, I get that one. That's the, the one I get, that's the second most popular. You know, the first one is, where do you get your protein?

• 1:07:59Speaker 03

  Right, well, yeah.

• 1:08:00Rich Roll?

  Anyway.

• 1:08:02Speaker 03

  You know, um, first of all, um, as you know, addiction has a huge destructive component to it. You know, you can't be addicted to loving your children. You can't be addicted to, you know, trying to be more spiritual in your life. You can't be addicted to anything that is overall in improving the quality of your life and making you a better human being. Can you be addicted to running? Sure. I, I think that's that point, is when it, when it transfers over, you know, is, is when is it becoming destructive? When are you engaging in the behavior compulsively despite all these negative consequences? I tried to switch addictions a million times. In fact, it was my preferred method of trying to find sobriety, right?

• 1:08:46Speaker 03

  I'd go, you know what? I'm gonna become an outdoorsman, you know, and I'm gonna give up drinking and I'm just gonna go fly fishing and I'm gonna go camping and I'm gonna go to Alaska and, or, I'm gonna go to the gym and I'm gonna, I tried working out and all that stuff.

• 1:09:02Rich Roll?

  Or moving cities, pulling a geographic.

• 1:09:04Speaker 03

  I tried running. I tried to switch my addictions to running and I, I always kinda wanted to be that runner person, you know, I just kinda, it was appealing to me for whatever reason, but... As you know, that was, that was just changing the symptoms. I may as well have been trying to switch from beer to wine, or from whiskey to cigarettes. I mean, it just didn't matter. It wasn't going to work that way. When I finally addressed the spiritual problems, what was causing me to live this way, and once I had to tackle some of those issues, I had this tremendous amount of mental energy and time available to me that I could have chosen to do anything with. I could have chosen to write music, or poetry, or go camping, or go running.

• 1:09:47Speaker 03

  And that's what I chose, but it was very much after the fact. And that's the only way it would have ever lasted for me. Because I could go to the gym, you know? How many times have I sat on a piece of equipment at the gym, reeking of alcohol, you know, and still smelling like Big Macs because I vomited when I woke up in the morning? And that's, that's real. And that wasn't going to work.

• 1:10:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:07Speaker 03

  It was never going to work.

• 1:10:08Rich Roll?

  I have to remain diligent in my sobriety to remember that training is not the same thing as tending to my sobriety. Like, going out and riding my bike and running, no matter how long that run is, that does not take the place of actually working a program of recovery. Because that's what I forget. You know what I mean? I think, I'm fine now. Like, and now as I go get my meditation when I'm running, like, no, that's, that's not, that's not it. That is not the solution. The minute I start to think about that, that is when I start to regress back and move towards that relapse.

• 1:10:45Speaker 03

  Start feeling some of those old behaviors, yeah.

• 1:10:48Rich Roll?

  You know, running, triathlon, all these things, they can be, you know, they can become addictions. You hear about the Iron Man widow. Or like, you know, when it starts to be this thing that someone escapes into because they're not happy with their life, or they're avoiding other things in their life, then I think you have to have, you know, a hard discussion about what the addictive aspect of it is, or what it is that you're running away from. But, but as Mishka Shubaly said on the podcast, he's like, running is hard, drinking is easy.

• 1:11:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's profound.

• 1:11:21Rich Roll?

  He's like, I don't want to get out of bed and go run, you know? But I always want to go to the bar.

• 1:11:26Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:11:27Rich Roll?

  And so, I think that's something to think about as well. But I think running is really this platform of self-discovery, you know? And that's, that's what I found. And from reading your book, I mean, that's clearly, I think, you know, I gather that... That's your approach to it?

• 1:11:41Speaker 03

  It is very much so, and I also, you know, I think that we were talking earlier about, you know, that feeling of being lucky, you know, that why was that moment the moment? And once we arrive at that moment, and once I was there and I put forth this journey of figuring out who I was and trying to trust the process and allow myself some time to heal while I was trying to figure these things out. It took a tremendous amount of faith and discipline and trust and all these other things that fit into running nicely. And, you know, when I'm in a 100 mile race, you know, and there's always going to be a moment for me, I hear other people say, "Oh, I never wanted to quit, never was."

• 1:12:24Speaker 03

  I'm like, "Well, good for you, man," because when I'm out there, I want to quit all the time. And to be able to access that place where everything is uncomfortable, everything sucks, and there's an easy way out, and you don't take it, is very valuable. And it brings me back to that place in my early days of sobriety, and it actually gives me that feeling that, you know, I'm going to be okay as long as I can continue to identify those things in myself and realize that I'm not, I'm not just a victim of the moment, that there is a choice in the moment.

• 1:12:59Rich Roll?

  What do you think it is about discomfort or, you know, that willingness to, you know, go beyond the self-imagined limits of your capabilities that is so important to this idea or this feeling of being alive?

• 1:13:19Speaker 03

  You know, I can answer it for me, you know, and I think that discomfort is a huge part of the addict's problem, is that, you know, life can be uncomfortable. Just the normal living of life is uncomfortable. We do all kinds of things we don't want to do, you know, whether it's following up with customer calls or, you know, doing things. That's part of life, and the addict has nothing to do with that, right? I'm not going to be uncomfortable in my life. There's no such thing I'm going to use if I'm uncomfortable. I'm going to use if I have a second that's, you know, that's available to me. And so... I think being in that uncomfortable place is a thing that most people are okay with and addicts aren't.

• 1:14:01Speaker 03

  So I think that for me, it appeals to me in that place that to be, not just to be able to deal with discomfort, but to deal with it on a big level, you know, is empowering in a way. And it's an affirmation of life and of recovery and of sobriety, so.

• 1:14:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well put. You know, I think that that being ultra sensitive, to continue to use the word ultra in every context.

• 1:14:32Speaker 03

  I know, I'm sorry, I do that.

• 1:14:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think in general addicts and alcoholics tend to be people that, not everybody, but I think it's fair to make a generalization that they tend to be sensitive people. And, you know, when you're talking about when you were a kid and being kind of ultra, said it again, you know, compassionate towards some other kid that you thought was having a hard time, that heightens everything, right? So as you grow older, that becomes more painful or more difficult to bear, and then it's the easy choice to use to numb that. And then you get sober, and suddenly you're just, your emotions are charging, you know, firing in all different directions, and you have no skills for how to manage that.

• 1:15:17Rich Roll?

  And you honestly think that these emotional impulses that you're experiencing are gonna kill you. You know, it feels like you're gonna die.

• 1:15:25Speaker 03

  No, that's perfect, absolutely.

• 1:15:27Rich Roll?

  And so the process of getting sober and recovering is learning how to manage your emotions because your coping mechanism gets shut off when you start your drinking career or your using career. And so you've got, you know, whenever you started your, you know, career, thirteen, whatever it is, and until, you know, thirty-three, right? Thirty-three? So you're a thirty-three-year-old man, and you have the emotional maturity of a thirteen-year-old.

• 1:15:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:15:59Rich Roll?

  And then, and you're in the world, right? And you have responsibilities and... You know, that leads to panic attacks and freakouts and all sorts of things that, you know, without really having a solid foundation for sobriety, you're going to return to using, ultimately.

• 1:16:15Speaker 03

  Yeah, I mean, that's the perfect analogy. And, you know, we all see those, you know, kids that can't cope and they're throwing tantrums and they're doing all this. And that's, that's like our behavior. That's the addict right there. That's a stereotypical addict. I can't have it my way, you know, I'm going to freak out and take everybody down with me.

• 1:16:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, what I always hear is, emotions are just emotions, man. You can feel them and they change. And you'll get to the other side of it. They will not kill you. Like, so I have to think like, it's not going to kill me. It's not going to kill me, you know? And in some sense, the pain of, of running an ultra is much more tolerable than some of the emotional pain that, that I've experienced.

• 1:16:54Speaker 03

  Yeah. Physical pain is, is a lot easier to deal with. And, and I think that's, I think that's ultimately what happens in, in ultra, is that you have to learn to divide physical pain from mental pain and, or emotional pain. Cause you, you have what's going on in your legs, which is actually kind of the smallest part of it. It's, it's the emotion and the meaning your mind's putting into that and, and telling you, hey, this could all be over really quick. You're probably injured. You need to sit down and you need to go on. This was a bad idea, you know? And being able to separate those, exactly like what you said. It's okay. You're okay. You know, just slow it down, breathe a second, and, and it's going to be all right. Emotions, there's no such thing as an inappropriate

• 1:17:39Speaker 03

  emotion, right? Just inappropriate times to feel them. And I think that was the big thing for me, is I never had the emotion and the occasion aligned up to be appropriate.

• 1:17:49Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:17:51Rich Roll?

  It's the wrong moment.

• 1:17:53Speaker 03

  Why am I experiencing anger here?

• 1:17:56Rich Roll?

  Well, being able to create that divining line between physical pain and emotional pain, you know, particularly in the context of of sport or running an ultra marathon, I mean, that's the that's the key to the kingdom. You know, when you're talking about 100 mile run, it's it's it's not the physical that's going to bury you, it's it's the mental, right?

• 1:18:14Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 1:18:15Rich Roll?

  I mean, as David Goggins famously said, when you think you're done, you've only accomplished about 40% of what you're truly capable of. So it's all about your mental state, your emotional state, you know, your spiritual connection in whatever form that takes that is either going to carry you across that finish line to some kind of triumphant victory or just bury you.

• 1:18:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, my my take on the the cliche, the yogi-ism about how much of it is mental and how much of it is physical. And, you know, there's there's a thousand of them out there. Mine is, um, it's all mental, even the physical.

• 1:18:45Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. I'll take you, I'll I'll take it one further.

• 1:18:48Speaker 03

  Okay.

• 1:18:50Rich Roll?

  It's all spiritual.

• 1:18:51Speaker 03

  All right, there you go. I like that, too.

• 1:18:52Rich Roll?

  You know, because...

• 1:18:54Speaker 03

  It's not supposed to be anything, right?

• 1:18:56Rich Roll?

  Well, it's like, look, I'm gonna come off like a woo woo new age guy, but the truth is, like, it's all spiritual journey, you know, all the things that I'm doing, the things that you're doing, were all born that day that you made that decision to get sober and and get in the passenger seat. And it's taken you on this remarkable, amazing journey, some of which, you know, you've played a small part through the actions that you've taken. But on some level, you know, you're, this is your, this is your path, man. You know, this is, this is, this is your divinely inspired journey that you're on. And it's a beautiful thing to see. Um, so when people say to me, oh, you know, what what do you think is your strength and your weakness? And, you know, how do you do these things?

• 1:19:41Rich Roll?

  And all that? I'm like, dude, I have no idea.

• 1:19:46Rich Roll?

  I mean, I can give the flip answer, you know, I can give the five things you can think, I can do all that, but I'm like, the real truth, like the honest truth is, I don't know, because it's about, it was, it all began when I threw my arms up and said, I don't know what I'm doing.

• 1:20:04Speaker 03

  Yeah. Your strongest, your weakest moment was your strongest moment?

• 1:20:07Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. And I think that, that's tough, especially for guys, you know, we're, you know, we're not reared to say, I don't know, or to say, I need help, or will you help me, or, you know, I'm lost. These are not the characteristics of, of the successful man in Western culture.

• 1:20:26Speaker 03

  No doubt, man. I mean, it was an absolute, the biggest obstacle that I faced in, in trying to, what I called, you know, get sober, because, you know, there's, as you know, there's such a big difference between sobriety and recovery, and, and not using, you know, not using is, is not even remotely related to being sober, you know, you're just not using anymore. And that's where I was, is like, I was almost, I was willing to kind of do the work, if someone would have given me, you know, what, here's what you need to do, I think I was willing to try to do that and make it happen, but what I wasn't willing to do was admit that I wasn't capable of doing the work. You know, like, well, I'm a man, I can take care of this, you know, I'll, I'll do this,

• 1:21:09Speaker 03

  I'll fix this, and, and I, I could never get to the first step, because that, that was the problem, right there.

• 1:21:16Rich Roll?

  Right. Until you can get to that place where you will literally do anything, and you will take direction from somebody, even if you think that person is crazy, or has no business telling you what to do, because don't you know who, who I think I am, you know, until you can get over that, and really destroy the ego to get to that place, you know, it takes, it takes destroying the ego to get to that place where you can actually grow.

• 1:21:41Speaker 03

  And it felt so good.

• 1:21:42Rich Roll?

  It's completely counterintuitive, but yeah, it's the greatest feeling, when you can finally let go of that.

• 1:21:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:21:48Rich Roll?

  So.

• 1:21:49Speaker 03

  And I think there's a lesson in there, you know, to, you know, competing and stuff like that, is that, is giving over that control, even when you get to a place where you want to be competitive. I have to accept any possibility in a race. I'm gonna accept the two extremes, right? I could win, or I could not finish. And once I'm okay with either scenario, then I can just run. I can just be in the moment and run.

• 1:22:10Rich Roll?

  You're not attached.

• 1:22:11Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's freedom.

• 1:22:13Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:22:14Rich Roll?

  That's freedom. All right, 320 pounds.

• 1:22:16Speaker 03

  Okay, yeah.

• 1:22:17Rich Roll?

  We gotta...

• 1:22:20Speaker 03

  So, all things being equal, I used to use a lot more soap.

• 1:22:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you did. A lot more of a lot of things, I think, right? Yeah, 320 pounds. I mean, the only other person I've had on the podcast who was, you know, pushing the scale at that level was Josh Lojani. And it was fascinating to hear his story of how he finally kind of came to grips with it and got on top of it. And I saw similarities in your story. And one of the things that really struck me, actually highlighted it. You said, "Changing your body and losing weight long-term is not about willpower." And you go on, and then you say, "You have to change the way you think and change the way you perceive the world." Right? So, it's not about a diet or some kind of short-term goal.

• 1:23:05Rich Roll?

  It has to do with like, doing the inside work to change your entire kind of orientation about how you're interacting with the environment around you.

• 1:23:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely, yeah. And we started talking about that earlier, when I was like, I used to have this weird perception of food and what people are. And I would think, you know, like, I would see some, you know, fit-looking person, and they're, you know, eating a salad or something, and they're eating something really healthy. And I go, "What the hell are you doing, man? You're thin and fit. You can eat whatever you want. Why aren't you eating a Big Mac?" I had it like, totally screwed up in my head. I wasn't thinking, "Wow, that person is healthy and vibrant-looking because they eat well." I thought, "That's just who they are." And it has nothing... You know what? That was almost a byproduct of it. And I certainly...

• 1:23:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like, if I look like that, I'd eat a Big Mac. That's the same... But that's the same... It's like saying, "If I wasn't an alcoholic, I'd get drunk every night."

• 1:24:03Speaker 03

  I'd drink all the time. Exactly. Well...

• 1:24:07Speaker 03

  So, I mean, so much of it is image, right? And how we see ourselves. And I didn't see myself as someone who needed to lose weight at that point. I saw myself as a fat person. And I was always gonna be a fat person. And if I was going to not be a fat person, I had to figure out a way to trick my body, you know, or trick the universe and trick the world into getting me skinny, you know? And I think that-

• 1:24:29Rich Roll?

  But what is it, let's sit there for a minute. I mean, what is it, what is it like to be that heavy? You know, just the day in, day out, like, you know, shopping for pants and getting a belt and sitting on an airplane and standing in line? Like, just the simple things of navigating a typical day?

• 1:24:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. The airplane's a big one, cuz I used to, you know, I was traveling a lot and I would get on a plane and I would walk down the aisle and I could see everybody looking at me. And they're just going, "Oh, fuck, shit, no, please, please, no, no, no." And then, you know, someone would lose the lottery and I'd plop down next to them. And, you know-

• 1:25:06Rich Roll?

  You need that extra, like, to have that little, like, thing for the seatbelt with the extender on it?

• 1:25:11Speaker 03

  You know, I did never, I never needed that. But, you know, I would definitely spill over into the chair next to me, you know? And that person would have to twist sideways a little bit. I was not the type of person who could let something like that go. I would have to joke about it, you know? So I would, I would start the conversation right and go, "Oh, you know, what did you do in your past life? You know, sorry, you lost the lottery today. And, you know, if you'd have waited 10 more minutes, you would've got a different seat on the plane, you know, you shouldn't be in such a hurry," you know, that kinda stuff. But-

• 1:25:41Rich Roll?

  But all of that is just like reaffirming this, like, sense that you're a piece of shit?

• 1:25:46Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Absolutely. And I hear that from people all the time. They go, "You know, I'm, I'm, I'm just this way and I'm happy." And, you know, I can't presume to know exactly what another human being is really feeling, but I can say, "Well, I used to say that too." And, and it wasn't true. It wasn't honest, you know? I wasn't happy with, with how I looked. I would joke about it, I would talk about it, but I wasn't happy.

• 1:26:10Rich Roll?

  That's a defense mechanism, yeah.

• 1:26:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, when I first started losing weight, you know, I was wearing size 50 pants with a 30-inch inseam. That's, that's as big as it got for me. I had the stretchy waist pants, you know, I had to have the little elastic bands in them and- You know, I size was became much more of a concern than fashion. You know, just finding things that fit was, you know, hard to do. So if I could find something fit that I actually that fit and I liked the way it looked, that was a bonus. You know, so you end up kind of looking like you eventually end up looking like a clown, no matter what. Cause you're wearing like a flannel shirt and plaid pants and, you know, because that's all you could find in your size.

• 1:26:51Speaker 03

  So, um, I noticed when I lost the weight, I went and played golf and I hadn't played in a long time. And it was the most strange sensation because when I went to line up a putt, my hands were right up close to my body. And it felt so odd because my hands were way out here past my belly before when I was, when I was putting. And changed it to actually changed my, my entire golf swing too, because I wasn't.

• 1:27:17Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 1:27:18Speaker 03

  Splicing the ball as much, but I digress.

• 1:27:20Rich Roll?

  Change more than that, I would imagine. Uh, and, and at the time, you know, what's it look like McDonald's, Hardee's, Burger King, Pizza Hut? I mean, what's, what's the daily routine?

• 1:27:31Speaker 03

  You know, yeah, fast food, lots of fast food. Um, I would towards, you know, my, my weight gain and food consumption was really getting worse in the same way that my drinking was. You know, it was progressing, you know, I, and towards the end I was eating fast food three or four times a day. And I would go to McDonald's and I'd get two sausage McEgs with biscuits, sausage biscuits with egg and cheese and hash browns. And of course the diet coke. And then I, it's the way it is.

• 1:28:03Rich Roll?

  Don't want to spike that blood sugar.

• 1:28:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I know. I don't need that extra 200 calories. But, you know, and then, and then in the, uh, the afternoon I'd go to, you mentioned Arby's, I'd go there a lot, but I'd always get the, you know, those potato cake things they have and I'd get like four of those, you know, to go along with whatever sandwich I had. And, and then that would usually be it because then I'd start drinking. And, and then the usually the last meal of the day came late, you know, where it was just, you know.

• 1:28:34Speaker 03

  Just gluttonous. I mean, just, you know, just I'd go get a double quarter pounder with cheese, a Filet-O-Fish, French fries, and those French fries would come back the next day like in whole French fry pieces, like not.

• 1:28:48Rich Roll?

  The way, the way that would work for me is I, you know, I didn't want to eat because that would interfere with the buzz.

• 1:28:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:28:56Rich Roll?

  So I would go as long as I could without eating when I was drinking because I didn't want that in my stomach because that would make me feel tired or it would, you know, take longer to get drunk. And inevitably, at the end of the night, you're starving.

• 1:29:11Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 1:29:11Rich Roll?

  So you do this massive binge and I would wake up, you know, I'd wake up with, you know, a pizza box, you know, open on my bed and like Big Mac wrappers in my sheets and just, it's just the worst.

• 1:29:23Speaker 03

  Terrible. I can almost smell it.

• 1:29:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's really pathetic.

• 1:29:28Speaker 03

  But that's why they invented like hundred proof schnapps. Because if your, if your stomach was really full, and it's dessert like, it's peppermint.

• 1:29:36Rich Roll?

  Maybe I should go back and start drinking and try that. So, all right, so, so you're getting sober and you're realizing like, I gotta, now this is the next thing that I have to address. And, and you take a very interesting kind of approach. I mean, first you try all these diets, Mediterranean diets, whatever it is, all, all of them. And then you kind of, you know, flick the switch and say, I'm going to put my scientific hat on because you have this background and approach it from a different perspective. So, you know, walk me through that.

• 1:30:06Speaker 03

  Yeah. So the, the main thing I was cognizant of was behaviorally, that whatever the process I used to get me to where I wanted to be, had to be sustainable, you know, and, and I knew I was never going to be able to eat all protein for the rest of my life, you know, or I was never going to be able to restrict my calories for the rest of my life.

• 1:30:25Rich Roll?

  And you, because you'd, you'd lost weight and gained a pa, you'd, you'd done the yo-yo thing.

• 1:30:29Speaker 03

  Bunch of times. I lost 50 pounds at least eight or nine times, you know, and, and I'd always do it on some crazy, you know, diet. And, and usually it would, you know, come undone because number one, I didn't want to just, you know, keep eating that way. And number two, I wasn't drinking and that wasn't going to last very long, you know. So. Yeah, I figured, um, I had to figure out a way to have a healthy relationship with food. And I had to eat. And that was really difficult because I totally linked up losing weight with not eating, obviously, or, or just eating, or eating in some extreme way to, to trick my body like the, the Atkins thing is 100% protein is what I used like the last five or six times.

• 1:31:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:31:11Speaker 03

  You know? And, and it's funny because-

• 1:31:13Rich Roll?

  Which is very effective at losing weight, but you know, people have a lo- have a hard time staying on it.

• 1:31:19Speaker 03

  Oh, absolutely. And, and I talk a lot about weight loss now. And whenever I have a group in front of me, I say, how many, how many people have been on a successful diet? And, and people raise their hands and I'm like, good, keep it up there. So your idea of a successful diet, gaining weight, losing weight, gaining weight, losing weight, like, cause if it's not, you should put your hand down.

• 1:31:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:31:38Speaker 03

  So, I mean, but-

• 1:31:38Rich Roll?

  But just the word diet alone, uh, sort of infers temporary.

• 1:31:44Speaker 03

  Yes, absolutely. Yeah, so I, I changed the way that, that I ate. And, um, you know, the glycemic index to me, um, made a lot of sense, um, just because I knew that there is a way that food was affecting my body outside of just calories in and calories out. I knew that there was something bigger in play. And, you know, we used to, I think, you know, in, in 50, 100 years ago, whatever, or, or longer, that the way that you would be overweight is, is by being gluttonous, right? I mean, you had to just eat all the time. And certainly I was guilty of that. But it seemed like there was so much more in play now with the, with the types of foods that we have that are, that are causing, you know, eat us to, to crave things that we

• 1:32:27Speaker 03

  wouldn't normally crave and, and that we're just kinda in this, this cycle, you know, this, this, that our biology wasn't working for us, we were kinda working against us. And so, um, I became a, a real student of the glycemic index and, and how my blood sugar was, was affected. And, and I became an absolute stickler on it. And, I mean, I wouldn't have anything with sugar in it at all.

• 1:32:52Rich Roll?

  And just to paint the, the complete picture, I mean, when you were tipping the scales at 320-

• 1:32:56Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:32:56Rich Roll?

  Not only were you overweight, you had a heart condition, you had extremely high blood pressure, and you had been diagnosed with diabetes, right?

• 1:33:03Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:04Rich Roll?

  So this is not just fat guy, this is like sick fat guy.

• 1:33:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, when, when they took my, the last time I was at the doctor and, and my blood pressure was so high, and I wish I could remember the numbers, I'll have to, I'll have to go back and get them, but- There was a two in there.

• 1:33:19Speaker 03

  And, uh, but they didn't want me to leave the, the doctor's office. I mean, they were like, you're going to have a stroke. I'm not telling you, you might have a stroke. You are going to have a stroke, you know, it could be in three minutes. You know, you need to be on medication, you need to be on now. And I didn't like that, you know? So I, I, I never, and my, my reasoning was I never went on, on medication because I had read that medication is unhealthy.

• 1:33:48Speaker 03

  I want to be on that blood pressure medication and that shit will kill you.

• 1:33:51Rich Roll?

  Your brain, you're still perceiving the world through a warped brain.

• 1:33:54Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:33:55Rich Roll?

  At this point.

• 1:33:55Speaker 03

  Absolutely. So of course I left there.

• 1:33:57Rich Roll?

  The, the smart thing would have been, I'm on that medication right now. I'm going to work my way off it, but let's not have a stroke in three minutes.

• 1:34:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I was not capable of the smart thing. In fact, I had to go, I was, I was meeting my friend at the bar and that's a fact. I, I had someone, my buddy Dan was waiting for me at the bar while I was at the doctor's.

• 1:34:13Rich Roll?

  You're like, yeah, I can't hang out in this doctor's office.

• 1:34:16Speaker 03

  Yeah. And of course I told him.

• 1:34:17Rich Roll?

  It's not going to be done.

• 1:34:17Speaker 03

  Yeah, we sat and laughed about it and, you know, drank ourselves silly.

• 1:34:20Rich Roll?

  Oh my God.

• 1:34:21Speaker 03

  So, yeah, I was really, really unhealthy. But, uh, um, yeah, I, I became a science or a student of the, uh, the glycemic index. And that was kind of the, the end all be all for me while I was losing weight. And it was like everything else, a progression, you know, that eventually led me to adopting a plant-based diet and all that. But during those initial stages, it was really no sugar, no breads, no processed foods. Um, and I just, I, I went into it with that mentality that my body's going to heal, you know, and I need to give it time to do that, that I'm going to trust that this is kind of part of the same process I was on with alcohol, that I was sick and unhealthy and as time went by, I was going to get better. And, and I'd looked at food being the same way, that I crave all these things that are

• 1:35:06Speaker 03

  killing me. And if I just give it enough time, that, that I'm not going to crave those things anymore and, and, and I'm going to get to a better place and I'm not going to be. In war with myself the whole time.

• 1:35:17Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, the analogy with, there's a couple analogies with, with Josh's, Josh Lojani's message, and that is, this place that you came to, that he also came to, which was, I'm not doing this, I'm taking my focus off the scale, I'm taking my focus off of losing weight, I'm looking at this from a perspective of, how can I be healthy, and how can I be an athlete? And there's this thing in the book where you, where somebody says, well, if you're trained for ultra marathons, who cares what you eat, right? But you're saying, I want to be a healthy human being. And that's very different from, I want a slimmer waistline.

• 1:35:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, well, and, I mean, there's a big difference between a slim waistline and even health and even fitness. And there's, there's no shortage of people out there now who are extremely fit, but they're not healthy. You know, they, they eat poorly, and they, they have high cholesterol, and they have high blood pressures and other things, but they can run, you know, five and a half minute miles. They don't usually work that way, you know, but usually if you're taking that much time to train your body, you're, you're trying to treat yourself right. But we know that they're, they're not, you know, mutually exclusive.

• 1:36:23Rich Roll?

  Right. So, so you adopt this approach, and, and so what happens? Like, how long before, you know, you're, you get to a place where your blood pressure starts to normalize, and the weight's coming off? Like, walk me through the evolution a little bit.

• 1:36:37Speaker 03

  So, I, I logged every workout that I've ever had since I was started at 320 pounds, and I have these notebooks, these little day planners, where I was writing down my, my calories in there. And typically what I'd have is, I, I was, I was eating a carbohydrate restricted diet, but I was, I just, I said that I could eat as many carbohydrates as I wanted, as long as they came from vegetables, you know, and, and, but I wasn't having any starches or anything like that. And I wrote down everything in, in the little, the little journal, on each day. And I was weighing myself religiously.

• 1:37:08Rich Roll?

  So, no rice, no potatoes?

• 1:37:10Speaker 03

  Nope.

• 1:37:10Rich Roll?

  No fruit?

• 1:37:11Speaker 03

  Um, I didn't really restrict fruit, but I was, I was avoiding it at Times, you know, but if I wanted it, I needed it, I had it, you know, because it was on a healthy list.

• 1:37:23Rich Roll?

  What about potatoes, sweet potatoes?

• 1:37:26Speaker 03

  Sweet potatoes I would have for sure. Again, I all boiled down to the glycemic index. So I kind of had this, this, um, this pass or fail grade, you know, it's like, I think it was 50. If something was higher, you know, than a 50 on the glycemic index, I wouldn't have it. And if it, and if it was close to that 50, it would be something I wouldn't have very often, you know? And then the lower down the spectrum they went, um, you know.

• 1:37:48Rich Roll?

  Interesting. And, but you're still eating meat and dairy at this point?

• 1:37:51Speaker 03

  I was, yes, absolutely. Um, and, uh, you know, as, as weight does, my weight started, you know, bouncing around a lot, you know, I'd lose, you know, when you've been out of shape and you're drinking a lot and you're just living so horribly, you're gonna see a dramatic result at first. And I was no exception. I want to say I lost 40 pounds the first month, you know?

• 1:38:12Rich Roll?

  In one month?

• 1:38:13Speaker 03

  In one month.

• 1:38:13Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 1:38:14Speaker 03

  And then it leveled off.

• 1:38:15Rich Roll?

  So that's like 80%, 90% booze, right?

• 1:38:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 1:38:19Rich Roll?

  Well, and, and the bad decisions that come with booze, like all the late night McDonald's and all that kind of stuff, right?

• 1:38:24Speaker 03

  But interestingly, um, actually I need to back up one quick second because, um, for the first couple of weeks after I stopped, and maybe even 30 days after I stopped drinking, um, I was eating really terribly still. Um, I just quit drinking and that was, that was enough.

• 1:38:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:38:37Speaker 03

  That was enough.

• 1:38:38Rich Roll?

  I hear you.

• 1:38:38Speaker 03

  And in fact, um, in my hotel room, um, I looked at my refrigerator one day and I just started laughing because it was like Pop Tarts and the little chocolate covered donuts and Frosted Flakes. And every Wonder Bread, I bought a loaf of Wonder Bread. I hadn't had a Wonder Bread since I was like eight years old. But I was just craving sugar.

• 1:38:57Rich Roll?

  You need like a little comfort, you know?

• 1:38:59Speaker 03

  I was definitely looking for comfort.

• 1:39:00Rich Roll?

  Because you just broke up with your best friend, so.

• 1:39:01Speaker 03

  Absolutely. My, my abusive marriage came to an end, but I still missed my partner. And, uh, so then I, then I kind of, I was in that place where I'm like, okay, I need to address these, these things together. Um, but I stopped weighing myself because I was that old addict brain, you know? And I was just trying to control that number and it wouldn't listen to me. And it kept sending me back into that, that place. And, you know, you know what addiction feels like? And it felt like that, you know, it felt like that ugly place to me again where I was obsessing about it and I was thinking about it all the time and I was, so I just had to let it go and I eventually thought, you know? I'm in this for health. I'm in this because I want to live.

• 1:39:45Speaker 03

  And if I ultimately can do the things I want to do, and I can look the way I want to look and feel the way I want to feel, I don't care if that number ever changes. If it stays 320, that's okay. That's okay. So I started-

• 1:39:57Rich Roll?

  Another surrender.

• 1:39:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, absolute, total, complete surrender. And it was, once again, very empowering to me. And it gave me a new focus. And it allowed me to put more energy into what I was doing instead of less. And I still threw the measurements on occasionally to just make sure everything was moving in the right direction, because there's not that emotional component to a measurement, right? If I see a movement, and this is what I try to do with people that I help lose weight, is go with the emotion, the scale, man. If you want four pounds of weight loss and you get three, it's a failure. But if your measurements go down an eighth of an inch, it's success. Because there's not that emotional part to it. So, and I could obviously see my clothes changing,

• 1:40:42Speaker 03

  and I was feeling better, and then I just kept going.

• 1:40:47Rich Roll?

  And so how does it continue to evolve? You have this, you know, it's a pretty rigorous kind of glycemic index approach. And then how did it kind of morph over time into what you do now?

• 1:40:58Speaker 03

  So I was becoming fitter and fitter. I decided I was going to run a marathon somewhere along the way. I did a 5K, which was the scariest thing that ever happened to me in my-

• 1:41:08Rich Roll?

  Right, and, yeah, and this is not an overnight thing. You know, this is, this is running for 15 seconds-

• 1:41:15Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:41:15Rich Roll?

  Because that's all you could do.

• 1:41:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:41:17Rich Roll?

  And that description of the little bump on the sidewalk that elevated the sidewalk a foot was the big terror.

• 1:41:24Speaker 03

  It was, man. I could see that thing coming, man. It was like an eighth of a mile loop around the park, and I could just feel the weight of that 10-foot ride coming like it was Hope Pass, you know?

• 1:41:34Rich Roll?

  But what was it that you think clicked in you that said, "Running"? Or, you know, "I have this dream of running a marathon"? Like, why running? Why not? I mean, what was it? Do you, is there anything specific that you think made you gravitate towards that as this litmus test for growth?

• 1:41:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, it seemed impossible. I mean, and I really think that was it. And, you know, I think that-

• 1:42:01Speaker 03

  I think all human beings to a certain extent kind of have that that thing that will rise to the occasion, you know, and I felt like if something didn't seem impossible, it didn't seem like it was worth doing. And I wanted it to be big and I wanted it to be meaningful, you know, I wanted it to be something, something worthy of creating a whole new life. And, and I don't know, it was running and I do firmly believe that it could have been something else, you know, as long as it had those same components to it, but

• 1:42:30Rich Roll?

  The emotional stakes had to be high, very high to get you out of bed and to really kind of be powerful enough for you to really restructure how you were living your day every day.

• 1:42:41Speaker 03

  Yeah. And because I'd tried to do it in the past and I couldn't, it almost became this thing where, you know, when I ran the first time for 20 minutes nonstop, I mean, that seemed like a really big success, you know, and, and, you know, kind of, you know, proof that things were going in the right direction, that I wasn't just spinning my wheels, even though I was running on a treadmill. So technically I was exactly spinning my wheels.

• 1:43:03Rich Roll?

  So, so from that first, you know, 15 second run and panting to the first marathon, how long are we talking?

• 1:43:14Speaker 03

  August of 2005 to October of 2006.

• 1:43:18Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:43:19Speaker 03

  So a little over a year, a little over a year.

• 1:43:22Rich Roll?

  A year, but that's a, that was a very focused year.

• 1:43:25Speaker 03

  It was.

• 1:43:26Rich Roll?

  And when you ran that first 15 seconds, what were you weighing then?

• 1:43:30Speaker 03

  320.

• 1:43:31Rich Roll?

  320. And at your first marathon, what were you clocking in?

• 1:43:35Speaker 03

  180.

• 1:43:36Rich Roll?

  180.

• 1:43:37Speaker 03

  And it was very

• 1:43:38Rich Roll?

  Which is still 20 pounds heavier than where you ended up at Badwater.

• 1:43:40Speaker 03

  Yeah. And it was really important to me, and you know, we're all on our own journey, you know, and everyone has their own, their own kind of thing they're trying to do. But for me, it was really important that I approached the marathon, I wanted to be a runner when I got there, and I wanted to run it. I didn't need to run it really fast, you know, but I wanted it to be my victory lap. So I wanted to achieve all of my weight loss goals and my health and fitness goals along the way. And I didn't want it, like, the old me would have just been like, okay, what's the minimum amount I can do and still get this finisher's medal? You know what I mean? And can I fake it? Can I walk it? Can I get through it?

• 1:44:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because that's about saying you did it, as opposed to really embracing the experience and what it actually means to tackle that and give it your best go.

• 1:44:25Speaker 03

  Absolutely. I didn't want to run a marathon. I wanted to be the type of person that could run marathons.

• 1:44:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's, that's, say that again. That's an important distinction.

• 1:44:33Speaker 03

  I didn't want to run a marathon. I wanted to be the type of person who can run marathons.

• 1:44:37Rich Roll?

  To be a runner, not somebody who did a marathon.

• 1:44:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That was, that was a really big, really big part of the journey for me. And it kept me motivated and it kept me going out there. And I did the 5K.

• 1:44:50Rich Roll?

  When you, well, hold on a second. All right. So when you're 320 and you have this idea that you're gonna run a marathon, I mean, how long before you said, said those words out loud to another human being?

• 1:45:01Speaker 03

  It didn't take too long.

• 1:45:04Rich Roll?

  So what's the reaction you're getting?

• 1:45:06Speaker 03

  Oh, they would look, look me up and down and.

• 1:45:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, all right, buddy.

• 1:45:09Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay, Dave.

• 1:45:10Rich Roll?

  Ready to go back to Arby's?

• 1:45:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, I remember, I remember last time you said you were never gonna drink again, too. Seriously. But, you know, I think insanity is an amazing tool.

• 1:45:24Rich Roll?

  You just gave me the, the tagline for this episode.

• 1:45:29Rich Roll?

  RRP episode, whatever. David Clark, I think insanity is an amazing tool.

• 1:45:35Speaker 03

  It is, because it can create leverage to produce anything you want, right? You know, and you gotta be afraid of the person that's too crazy to, to know better, right? And so I didn't mind. I was just like, you know what? Screw it, you know? Go ahead, laugh, you know? And I went and I had these little silicone bracelets made up that said 26.2. And I just thought that was like really archaic, like and obscure and, and like no one would know what it meant or anything like that.

• 1:46:01Speaker 03

  I thought it was so original, right? And, you know, and, and that was it.

• 1:46:06Rich Roll?

  What is that mysterious number?

• 1:46:07Speaker 03

  What is that number? I feel like.

• 1:46:09Rich Roll?

  It's the same number in that like white oval sticker on the back of every car that you see.

• 1:46:14Speaker 03

  I know, and I still lived in Colorado at the time.

• 1:46:18Speaker 03

  But, yeah. So I decided I was a runner and, and I wasn't gonna let reality get in, get in the way of that.

• 1:46:25Rich Roll?

  Get in the way of that, that you redefined yourself. I mean, that is, you know, a transformation.

• 1:46:33Rich Roll?

  A mental and emotional transformation that precedes the physical transformation.

• 1:46:39Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:46:39Rich Roll?

  Right? Like you stepped into this identity before it had been manifest and assumed the role.

• 1:46:47Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think that that's a big thing. And I think we pigeonhole ourselves and we create these images of who we are. And rarely are they based in facts. They're just emotional attachments that we made, you know? Somewhere along the way in childhood, we were told you were the smart one, or you were the stubborn one, or you were the fat one, or whatever it is. And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. And it's really important, I think, for human beings to be in a place where how you view yourself and who you are matches with what you're doing. And I think I talk a little bit about it in the book, that we create this conflict. And with the attic me, whenever I tried to stop drinking,

• 1:47:31Speaker 03

  that was my behavior. I was trying to not drink, but I knew I was a drinker. So that wasn't going to ever last very long, you know? Because I was in battle with myself. And I had to look at myself as someone who wouldn't dream of drinking alcohol, who would never consume recklessly and destroy myself like that. And once I did that and addressed that spiritual part of that and was able to get myself to buy into that, then the behavior changed a little more naturally.

• 1:47:58Rich Roll?

  But what is the process of changing that identity?

• 1:48:03Speaker 03

  Insanity.

• 1:48:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, because you're saying, you know, going from knowing you're an alcoholic to saying, not saying, but believing I am somebody that doesn't drink, or I am somebody who, I am a runner, I am somebody who runs marathons. Like, what is the process of that? Because I think, you know, listen, the truth is, most people who are alcoholics don't get sober. And most people that weigh 320 pounds don't lose 160 pounds. So what is it that was different about you? And how, you know, how did you kind of?

• 1:48:39Rich Roll?

  Create that, you know, create that new path for yourself. I mean, I guess I'm looking for, you know, I'm looking for you to be able to articulate the process a little bit for somebody who's out there who's like, please tell me how you did this.

• 1:48:53Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and I was joking about it when I said the insanity thing, but there's actually a modicum of truth to that. And you have to, I had to drink the Kool-Aid, right?

• 1:49:01Rich Roll?

  You had to believe it. It's not about like looking in the mirror and saying, you know, trying to convince yourself of something you actually don't believe.

• 1:49:08Speaker 03

  Right. So that meant moving forward, once I decided that I believed that, I had to only engage

• 1:49:15Rich Roll?

  Act accordingly.

• 1:49:16Speaker 03

  Thoughts and behaviors that supported that view of who I was. And anything that would come up, because all kinds of things would come up to tell, show me, and prove to me on a daily basis that I wasn't that person. I'd be like, I've always been that person. I'm just off track now. I'm getting back to where I'm supposed to be. This was, this was who I was supposed to be all along, and I screwed it up. And so I think, you know, there's so much information that comes into our, our daily lives. And, you know, we can't, we, we tend to grab onto the things that support our predetermined ideas, right? Even if it's like, oh, that guy's a jerk. That guy can do something really nice. And you're going, yeah, but that's not real. He's an asshole. I know him, you know? And it's the same thing, I think, with our behaviors. And, and there's a big difference between being someone who needs to lose weight and someone, you know, who's a fat person.

• 1:50:01Speaker 03

  And so I started deleting all of the information that came my way that supported that I was supposed to be overweight, that I was, you know, supposed to be an addict, that it was just genetically wired into my DNA. Sometime I was like, bullshit. I'm not even going to entertain that idea. Store it, throw it away. And I would shift my direction over to something else. I would, you know, take a physical action like getting online and looking up marathons and reading about marathon training plans and, and reading about running shoes and, or just go for a run, you know, like, there's no greater way to prove to yourself you're a runner than going for a run. You know, so, and I would do that. And it's like, everything became an affirmation. It's like, okay, this is it. This is, this is real. And, and I believe-

• 1:50:46Rich Roll?

  I would imagine it starts with a little fake it till you make it.

• 1:50:49Speaker 03

  Damn right.

• 1:50:50Rich Roll?

  What would a runner do? Well, I don't know. A runner would probably go running.

• 1:50:53Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:50:53Rich Roll?

  A runner would probably go on a website and try to learn something about running shoes.

• 1:50:57Speaker 03

  Yeah. You have to be willing to be a little- Stupid, you know, and a little crazy at first and, and it's hard and you'll try to talk yourself out of it. I certainly did, you know?

• 1:51:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, there had to be those moments where

• 1:51:10Speaker 03

  You're kidding yourself.

• 1:51:11Rich Roll?

  You're like, what are you doing?

• 1:51:12Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I just, I figured, you know, that I wasn't a 320 pound alcoholic addict by accident, right? And, and it was all of the crap that I put on myself that, that got me there. So it was that surrender thing. It was like, it's really easy for me to say, I don't have it all figured out, you know? I don't know. If I did, I wouldn't be here. So I'm going to say that this is, this is the way it is and, and I have no proof otherwise because I don't have anything figured out.

• 1:51:39Rich Roll?

  Interesting. And did you try to surround yourself with a community of people that could teach you and support this dream? Or are you going lone wolf on this?

• 1:51:51Speaker 03

  Um, at first I was very much alone. Um, I think the first outward action I took into the running community was, was going to a running store in Boulder and

• 1:52:00Rich Roll?

  Which could be an incredibly intimidating thing.

• 1:52:03Speaker 03

  It was, it was really intimidating and, and it was really hard. I sat out in front of the store for a long time and, you know, it was like, it's, it was a little better buying my shoes at, you know, the, the sports store.

• 1:52:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you go to Sports LA or something where you know it's

• 1:52:17Speaker 03

  A little more anonymous.

• 1:52:18Rich Roll?

  That's easier, right?

• 1:52:18Speaker 03

  Yeah. But, you know, again, it was like all those things. I was like, you know, the old me would have just left and gone somewhere else, you know? I'm going to do things differently now. I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go in here and

• 1:52:28Rich Roll?

  A real, a real runner is gonna go to the real running store and is gonna ask the, the real questions.

• 1:52:34Speaker 03

  Yeah. And, and not only am I gonna go in, I'm gonna just tell them who I am and why I'm here. You know, I'm not even gonna candy coat it. You know, I'm like, hey, you know, I've lost 60 pounds and I want to run a marathon, you know? And it's almost like daring them to, to, you know, laugh or scoff, you know? It's like, this is it.

• 1:52:52Rich Roll?

  How'd that go?

• 1:52:53Speaker 03

  You know, it was, they were incredibly supportive, you know? And then now I know that, you know, it's a great community of people. Um, but, uh, yeah, um, they were incredibly supportive. He asked me questions about, you know, what speed I was running at and, and, you know, how many miles I was doing. And, and I shared all of that willingly and, and he was very encouraging and thought, said, you know, hey, you did a great job and, you know, good for you. And that was, that was important for me because it was an affirmation that I hadn't gotten. You know, before, so I think it was very-

• 1:53:26Rich Roll?

  He's looking at you like you mean business. He's not questioning you.

• 1:53:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:53:30Rich Roll?

  So it's another little like notch.

• 1:53:33Speaker 03

  You know, and it's interesting that once, once it came full circle and, you know, I'd done the marathon. And then I was, I was getting involved more in the running community and doing more group runs with people and things like that. I never hid my story, you know, ever. But I didn't willingly share it. And I think, you know, you talk about part of the process, you know, there was, there was a growing process along the way. In that first two years, I was kind of fumbling my way through my sobriety. I was fumbling my way through the weight loss. I was fumbling my way through everything and I, and I hadn't really put it together yet. I was certainly better than I, I was before. But I thought somehow if I shared where I'd come from, that people would think less of me.

• 1:54:17Speaker 03

  They wouldn't accept me as a real runner, you know? So that was like the last little bit that was, that was holding on.

• 1:54:23Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:54:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:54:24Rich Roll?

  And the iron, the great irony is that the story's so powerful. And it's a journey towards willingness, another level of willingness and surrender to be vulnerable enough to share the story.

• 1:54:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, because I felt like I worked to get to a certain place and I didn't want anything to detract from it.

• 1:54:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:54:47Speaker 03

  And I felt that ego coming in.

• 1:54:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I don't want people to see me as that other guy because I worked so hard to be this new guy. That's, that's in the past. So, so when you sit down to write the book, I would imagine you might've been, you know, struggling or grappling with a little resistance, you know, when it comes to filling in the gaps and, and, and really fleshing out the details of, of your story. I mean, I know I experienced that when I was writing my book, but I also was very aware that that was the only thing that was going to make the book work, was whether I was willing to do that.

• 1:55:22Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, it was definitely a, a test, if you will, of, you know, how, how much you're willing to put yourself out there. I mean, there's so much went into that title, you know?

• 1:55:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:32Speaker 03

  From just the crazy part of just, you know, you're out there to putting yourself out there to, as you know, what we call people who are still out there struggling. We say they're out there. But it was, it was the most incredible- Journey of self-discovery that I've ever been on. And I, I still, I've been asked a couple of times if I, if I do a little book event or something. I'll say, you want to read something from it? And I'm, no, I can't. You know, I, I can't. And, um, there was just times where I was literally laughing out loud while I was writing it. And other times I was just bawling and crying and I'd have to walk outside and, um, pray and thank God that I made it out, you know? And because when you, when you relive something, as you know, from the writing process,

• 1:56:15Speaker 03

  it's, I just couldn't believe the amount of emotion and detail that would come back when I sat down and started to write.

• 1:56:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you start remembering stuff that, you know, you forgot about or, or it just comes back in technical or,

• 1:56:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:56:30Rich Roll?

  and it's not always welcome.

• 1:56:32Speaker 03

  No, no. But, you know, there were, there were certainly times where I was like, this is just too much, you know? And, you know, I really wasn't sure until, till probably, I'm not even sure when the, the exact moment I was a hundred percent sure I was going to actually like release it or publish it or anything like that. I knew I had to write it for, for me. And then I figured, hey, I knew my mom would buy one, you know? I couldn't imagine anyone would read my crap, you know? But it's like, if, if someone does, then that's just a bonus.

• 1:57:02Rich Roll?

  Well, when you, when you make that decision though, you're like, all right, you know? It's, it's a scary thing, you know? It's a scary thing. And I, and I, you know, when I was writing the Drunk-a-Log part of my book, listen, you know, I could, like yourself, I could tell stories all day long and I have a lot of, you know, I have plenty of stories that are a lot worse that are in the book, but it's like, what is the purpose of this book? Like, you know, I need to establish that this is my past, but, but you also, you can, you can attach your ego to those stories, like, look how crazy I was, you know? And it's like, it's not about that.

• 1:57:33Speaker 03

  No.

• 1:57:33Rich Roll?

  You know, it's not, it's not for shock value. It's like, okay, I need to, people need to understand that this is the place that I'm coming from. But, you know, I didn't want, I didn't want to freak people out either. Like, you can go too far with it.

• 1:57:46Speaker 03

  No doubt.

• 1:57:46Rich Roll?

  You have to find that balance.

• 1:57:48Speaker 03

  For me, I went after the stories that I had the most. Humiliation attached to, because they're the ones I didn't want to share. Because they're the ones you're talking about, the ones that you talk about with your buddies and that are kind of funny, you laugh about them and they're the crazy rock star kind of stuff, but I didn't want, like you said, I didn't want to glamorize it. And I figured, well, I'll share the ones that would-

• 1:58:12Rich Roll?

  It can be romanticized.

• 1:58:13Speaker 03

  Absolutely, absolutely. But sitting on a park bench and shitting yourself in LA is not romantic.

• 1:58:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the thing about it, though, is by making that decision to say, okay, it's out there, I mean, that's freedom.

• 1:58:30Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:58:31Rich Roll?

  You feel that, though, right?

• 1:58:33Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. If, I've told this to some friends, like, if you ever want to experience true freedom, you write down every piece of shit moment you've had and put it out there for the world.

• 1:58:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:46Speaker 03

  And you will experience-

• 1:58:47Rich Roll?

  You want to feel like you're walking through Times Square naked. That's what it's like.

• 1:58:50Speaker 03

  Yeah. And there's such a difference between telling your friends, or even a group of a hundred people, some of your personal things, and actually putting it in print. Where people can reread it and pick it apart and analyze it.

• 1:59:06Rich Roll?

  And criticize it.

• 1:59:07Speaker 03

  And criticize it. And that was my kind of deal with myself or whatever. It's like, once the book is done, and once it's actually published, it's not mine anymore. And anything that anyone wants to think about it, want to, how they want to interpret it, is up to them. They bought the book, they read it, they have their right to what they feel about it. It's theirs now.

• 1:59:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and part of the deal also is criticize away.

• 1:59:34Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 1:59:35Rich Roll?

  But if one person out there reads it and gets sober, like, it's all worth it. Or one person out there changes their diet and does something that they didn't think that they could do, then that's great.

• 1:59:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 1:59:48Rich Roll?

  Because that's what it's about.

• 1:59:49Speaker 03

  They just stop giving up on themselves.

• 1:59:50Rich Roll?

  And I have no doubt that that is the impact of this book.

• 1:59:53Speaker 03

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:59:54Rich Roll?

  Whether you've experienced it directly or not yet, you will. How long is it, when did it come out?

• 1:59:59Speaker 03

  It's been out for two months now.

• 2:00:01Rich Roll?

  Okay, so, brand new.

• 2:00:02Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:00:03Rich Roll?

  It's just starting for you, man.

• 2:00:04Speaker 03

  You know, it's been more than I could have ever imagined so far, and it's just starting, hopefully.

• 2:00:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean- With it comes, I think, a little mantle of responsibility now because you kind of carry this inspiration torch, you know, and people are gonna look to you and say, "How did you do it? Help me. You know, help, can you, can you help me?" And, and you're gonna find yourself in this position where people are gonna be, you know, wanting you to guide, guide them. I mean, have you started to experience that?

• 2:00:39Speaker 03

  You know, I, I have, and-

• 2:00:41Rich Roll?

  I mean, I know you're training and coaching people and all of that, so you're, you're already engaged in that professionally, but just sort of the emails will come in and stuff like that.

• 2:00:49Speaker 03

  Yeah. Yeah, and, and I'm, I'm always thankful for those emails, but it is tough. It is tough because, you know, you don't always have the, the piece of advice that people, people want, you know, and I'm never gonna tell someone what I think they wanna hear. I spent my whole life doing that kinda shit, so I'm just gonna let the truth light the way, you know, some, sometimes the truth just demands to be said, so-

• 2:01:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:01:12Speaker 03

  You know, 'cause I, you're right, like, a lot of people, you know, they have these passive, passive aggressive, reach out for help kinda thing, and I did it, you know, I remember I called an AA meeting one time, and I was like, you know, "When is your next meeting?" And they're like, "I don't know, let me find someone who knows," and this and that, and I was like, "You know, you should be ready to take someone's fucking call when they call," you know, and I hung up, and now they, they were just laughing their ass off at me, you know, they're like, "Look at this drunk," you know?

• 2:01:38Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 2:01:39Speaker 03

  But I think a lot of people do that, they'll reach out and they expect you to be able to, you know, like, make something happen. It's like, "I'll share with you every corner of my soul and everything that I've ever been through, but that's all I can do. I don't have any secret pieces of wisdom for the ages."

• 2:01:55Rich Roll?

  It's, it's on them to actually, you know, take what's in the book, or what's out there, and actually implement it into their lives, and that's, that's the hard piece, right? I mean, looking back, you know, put yourself back at 320 pounds at the end of your training career, and, and, and just imagine that you would be somebody who had not only run Bad Water, done all these crazy races that you've done, have written this book, you know, be a source of inspiration to other people, be actually, you know, coaching and training other people. I mean, is that, could you have possibly imagined that?

• 2:02:35Speaker 03

  No. Well, I don't know. No.

• 2:02:38Rich Roll?

  No.

• 2:02:38Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:02:39Rich Roll?

  I mean, where did you, you know, what would have your, what would your dream have been?

• 2:02:45Speaker 03

  Like, what was the farthest I could see?

• 2:02:46Rich Roll?

  Like, where, yeah, like, where did you, you know, what were you aspiring to?

• 2:02:50Speaker 03

  I wanted to run the New York City Marathon one day, I thought. You know, and it's funny, because like, I remembered seeing the Ironman triathlon when I was a kid. And I couldn't quite get to the point where I could ever see myself doing that. But I had this idea, like, I wonder if I could train for it. Like, not actually do it, but could I just train for it?

• 2:03:10Rich Roll?

  Do the training.

• 2:03:11Speaker 03

  Could I just, could I just, like?

• 2:03:13Rich Roll?

  Like, what a weird thought, though.

• 2:03:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah.

• 2:03:16Rich Roll?

  And what do you think that's about? Like, doing the race would actually mean that you'd be accountable to other people, or?

• 2:03:25Speaker 03

  I just don't think that I could put it out there. I, I, I think that I saw that as a certain type of person that could do that. And I wasn't that person, but maybe I could be the type of person who might be able to train for it.

• 2:03:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 2:03:38Rich Roll?

  All right, so you get the marathon done. And then where does the idea of, like, taking it to the ultra level start to creep into the consciousness?

• 2:03:46Speaker 03

  I read Dean's book. And actually, before that, even right after I finished the marathon, my, my ex-wife, I was sitting there, I was still, like, still jacked up, you know, walking downstairs backwards and, and stuff. And I, I don't think I'd taken my blue Denver Marathon hoodie off yet, you know? I think it was like thirty days before I stopped wearing that every single day. And my ex came down and said, oh, yeah, there's this guy, he ran fifty marathons in fifty states in fifty days. And I was like, no, he didn't. I mean, I didn't even hesitate, like, no, he did.

• 2:04:15Rich Roll?

  Are you trying to make me feel like shit?

• 2:04:17Speaker 03

  I was like, no, he did not.

• 2:04:18Rich Roll?

  I just ran a marathon, like.

• 2:04:19Speaker 03

  Like, you read that wrong. There's no way. And, and I just remember being just like, there wasn't anything more insane someone could have said, you know? I mean, like, I don't even know, I don't even know how to respond to that, you know? So I, I like Googled Dean Karnassis and, and I, I read Ultra Marathon Man. And I saw Running on the Sun. And Running on the Sun, just...

• 2:04:47Speaker 03

  Man, I don't know.

• 2:04:47Rich Roll?

  It's a documentary about Badwater.

• 2:04:49Speaker 03

  Oh, yeah.

• 2:04:49Rich Roll?

  For people that don't know, yeah. Can you, is it online? Can people?

• 2:04:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think it's still out there.

• 2:04:55Rich Roll?

  If it is, I'll find a link. I'll put it in the show notes.

• 2:04:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, sorry about that.

• 2:04:58Rich Roll?

  But, uh, no, go ahead.

• 2:04:59Speaker 03

  Yeah, it, um, man, it just, it really, it really touched something like, that scared me. It scared me because I thought that, um, I was probably gonna wanna do that one day. And that scared the eff- shit out of me.

• 2:05:13Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:05:14Speaker 03

  And, uh...

• 2:05:15Rich Roll?

  So that seed was planted.

• 2:05:17Speaker 03

  It really was.

• 2:05:17Rich Roll?

  That documentary and Paiden's book.

• 2:05:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, and interestingly enough about that, I talk about Full Circle and just, you know, my life is just, you know, tipped so far the other direction that, I mean, I'm just, I can't even believe, you know, what my life is today. And I saw Marshall Ulrich on that, that film. And he wrote the foreword for my book. And I met Marshall out at Badwater when I did it. And it was just so insane. You know, like, I was like, my life is, I have the most bizarre life in the world. You know, it just seemed, I mean, it's, it really does feel like, you know, I actually put it out there on a Facebook post the other day. I was like, you ever just realize you're absolutely 100% living your dream life? And that's the way I feel. I feel it's just...

• 2:06:04Rich Roll?

  I felt that yesterday when I was sitting up in Dean Hernaz's house, doing a podcast with him. And he's talking to me and I'm looking at him and I'm not hearing anything that he's saying, cuz I'm just thinking, what am I doing here?

• 2:06:20Speaker 03

  You just described the first five minutes of the show.

• 2:06:22Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:06:24Speaker 03

  For me.

• 2:06:24Rich Roll?

  How did my life get to this point where I'm sitting here having a conversation with this guy? Like, it just, it just hit me like a ton of bricks and, in a beautiful way.

• 2:06:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. It's a heavy weight, too. Like you said, there's a certain amount of responsibility that comes with...

• 2:06:41Rich Roll?

  But it did not happen because I, I plotted it out.

• 2:06:44Speaker 03

  Oh, right.

• 2:06:45Rich Roll?

  Or I made some goal and said, I'm gonna do this. Like, there, it's just, there's just no way.

• 2:06:49Speaker 03

  No.

• 2:06:49Rich Roll?

  You know, there's no way left to my own devices that it happens.

• 2:06:53Speaker 03

  No. No. You'd screw it up.

• 2:06:56Rich Roll?

  Oh, for sure. Daytime. You know? I'm trying to derail it every day.

• 2:07:02Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:07:05Rich Roll?

  So you see this movie and you read Dean's book. You know, the movie is about just how insane this bad water race is. The seeds planted and this is 2007?

• 2:07:18Speaker 03

  Yeah, no, 2006.

• 2:07:20Rich Roll?

  2006 still, right?

• 2:07:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:07:23Rich Roll?

  And your first bad water is 2013.

• 2:07:27Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 2:07:27Rich Roll?

  So we're talking about a seven year span here during which period of time you run the Leadville 100 twice.

• 2:07:34Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:07:35Rich Roll?

  And a bunch of other crazy stuff, too.

• 2:07:37Speaker 03

  Yeah, so.

• 2:07:38Rich Roll?

  So you're creating this, you know, it's not the narrative, the easy narrative is, you know, 320 pounds to bad water, you know? That'll probably be the title of my blog post.

• 2:07:50Speaker 03

  We can have a subtitle.

• 2:07:51Rich Roll?

  I know because well, that's like, you know, it's, it sounds so crazy dramatic and it is, but we're talking about many years of, of brick by brick, a lot of miles.

• 2:08:04Speaker 03

  Yeah, I, I had never really exercised any level of patience in my past life, so I've been trying, you know, and I didn't want to do the same thing and just say, just like with the marathon, I didn't want to go, okay, well, how can I go fake bad water? You know, I didn't even know that you couldn't fake bad water. That was really hard just to get in it.

• 2:08:21Rich Roll?

  They won't let you fake it. They'll weed you out beforehand.

• 2:08:24Speaker 03

  How much is race day registration?

• 2:08:27Speaker 03

  But yeah, and then reading about Dean's book and just reading about such a thing as an ultra marathon, I found out that the Leadville 100 was right in my backyard. And it just seemed kind of, kind of shitty to get on a plane and fly somewhere else to do an ultra when you have one of the most iconic ones right in your backyard.

• 2:08:44Rich Roll?

  Right. And in certain respects, maybe even, I mean, harder in a different way with that crazy elevation and thin air and everything else. I mean, what was that, what was that first Leadville like?

• 2:08:58Speaker 03

  It was, you know, when I wrote the book, um, the, the finish line of my first Leadville was the finish line of the book. And, and I actually, um, I had to, it was a huge process of, um, you know, I'm getting ahead of myself, but, but, um, Badwa- or, uh, Leadville, my first Leadville finish was really the, the true birth of me as, as a runner. Um, not that anything else I did before wasn't, you know, running, but it was that moment that I really accepted that I wasn't going to dismiss anything that I'd ever done, or that I, that I did, and that I wasn't going to live that life anymore. But because up to that point, like, I, I did the marathon and I was like, okay, what's next?

• 2:09:42Speaker 03

  And then I did, you know, started doing triathlon, like, okay, what's next? And I was, I was still searching. And, and so I, I think I stopped searching at that point. Um, I just, I decided that I, I was here and that I just needed to be here as much as I could. I needed to be in that moment and, and, and be.

• 2:09:59Rich Roll?

  And just own it.

• 2:10:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:10:01Rich Roll?

  Well, in a tangible way, I mean, you went from running a marathon, which is something that hundreds of thousands of people have done, to running Leadville, which very, very few people have done or are capable of doing.

• 2:10:14Speaker 03

  And the process of getting, thank you for saying that. The, the process of getting there was, was, um, it was wrought with lots of complications along the way, including, um, back surgery and-

• 2:10:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have the two herniated discs.

• 2:10:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:10:30Rich Roll?

  I mean, there's, there's a lot, you know, we don't want to have too many spoiler alerts.

• 2:10:34Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:10:35Rich Roll?

  But there's a lot, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of ups and downs. You're gonna have to read the book.

• 2:10:38Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:10:39Rich Roll?

  We could be here for eight hours.

• 2:10:40Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:10:41Rich Roll?

  And I could, I could talk to you forever.

• 2:10:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, oh, thanks. I could, yeah. This is another example of how cool my life is.

• 2:10:46Rich Roll?

  It's cool, listen, it's cool for me, you know? This is, this is awesome, I'm fascinated. So, uh, so, but walk me through the Leadville. I mean, like- You know, paint the picture of just how difficult that race is.

• 2:11:00Speaker 03

  Well, training for the race was was more difficult than I had imagined. And in fact, it smacked me down and humbled me in a big, huge way. And they presented a moment where I was either gonna walk away and just go back to doing triathlons, or I was gonna, you know, step up and do some things differently. And it's where I got serious, the next level of serious, you know? And I changed my diet. That's when I adopted the plant-based diet. I went from 180 to 160.

• 2:11:29Rich Roll?

  What was the decision that drove that?

• 2:11:32Speaker 03

  A dare.

• 2:11:35Speaker 03

  Pretty much a 30-day challenge by a friend. And I was like, you know, and at that point, I was eating really clean. I mean, I ate, you know, fruits, vegetables, lean meats, you know? And I really didn't eat much other than that. I mean, I had my occasional thing I would, you know, have a treat here and there. But, I mean, 90% of my diet was what most people would call super clean.

• 2:11:54Rich Roll?

  Right, and training a ton, and you just kind of stabilized at 180?

• 2:11:58Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'd been there for a few years and I felt fit and able to do, you know, big runs and things like that. I'd done some 50-milers and stuff like that, but um...

• 2:12:10Rich Roll?

  And then a dare, like what, like, no way could you possibly eat a plant-based diet, or?

• 2:12:15Speaker 03

  Not, no, just, you know, from a friend like you who got tired of me and asking him where he gets his protein, you know, because he was a vegan.

• 2:12:21Rich Roll?

  Oh, because he was, I see, now I get it, alright.

• 2:12:24Speaker 03

  And then he's like, why don't you just do it for 30 days, you know? What are you afraid of? Just try it, see if it works for you. And I'm like, alright, I got nothing better to do. It's like, but if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. And I'm gonna do it. And I actually did it like more strict than he was doing it. Because he was telling me like, well, every once in a while, I'll do this or that. I'm like, well, if I'm gonna do it, I'm just gonna do it. And I'm not gonna have anything, I'm not gonna consume anything that has animal, any trace amount of animal.

• 2:12:46Rich Roll?

  You were very alcoholic about it.

• 2:12:48Speaker 03

  Yes, of course. I was very addict about it, exactly. And so I did it for 30 days and, I mean... I felt like I was on drugs. I mean, I felt so crazy good, you know, I felt aware and light and fast and my, I was recovering from my workouts better and, you know, lots of things were changing at the same time. I was changing the volume of training, I was changing my mental focus, and I changed my diet all at the same time. And it was just like the perfect storm, I think, for me as an athlete. And I just never looked back. I've said all along, the day I feel I'm missing something from my diet, I'll go have it, you know? I'm not on a moral mission, you know, to make the world vegan.

• 2:13:30Speaker 03

  It's, it's just about feeling better and being healthy. I understood a whole new level of what health was.

• 2:13:37Rich Roll?

  Interesting. Yeah, that, and how long ago was that?

• 2:13:39Speaker 03

  Four years.

• 2:13:40Rich Roll?

  Four years, and still haven't gone back, huh?

• 2:13:42Speaker 03

  Nope.

• 2:13:43Rich Roll?

  That's pretty cool.

• 2:13:44Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:13:44Rich Roll?

  That's pretty cool. Uh, yeah, I mean, I like that, that, I like the openness, you know, the idea that you're listening to your body and this is working for you. And if it, if it wasn't, you would change. You, you don't seem to have a dogmatic approach to it, but rather a pretty, you know, scientific, kind of rational perspective on it. And hey, if it's, if you think it's making you faster, certainly you dropped an extra 20 pounds. So there's something right there. But, um, that's cool.

• 2:14:13Speaker 03

  I try to apply my insanity in very logical way.

• 2:14:15Rich Roll?

  You do. How to apply insanity to improve your life. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna grapple with this over the next couple of days.

• 2:14:26Speaker 03

  There's a difference between crazy and chemically imbalanced. It's the chemically imbalanced you gotta watch out for.

• 2:14:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, after the podcast with Dean, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a nutrition, I mean, I was talking to him about how his nutrition has changed, but, you know, he's, he's certainly not vegan. I mean, he eats, you know, he eats kind of like, it's what it sounds like you were eating before you made the switch. But after we were done, he's like, really? You know, like, how does that work? And, you know, he was inquisitive, like, he's interested, but he was also very, like, dubious, like, I wanna see your hematocrit, you know?

• 2:14:56Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:14:57Rich Roll?

  I'll send it to you.

• 2:14:57Speaker 03

  Sure.

• 2:15:00Rich Roll?

  But yeah, I mean, I feel the same, I feel the same way in the sense that if my body started to feel like things weren't working, you know, then I have to be open enough to reevaluate. Like, I have to be willing to step outside, you know, the label and the dogma. You know, I've kind of painted myself into a corner here with this thing.

• 2:15:18Speaker 03

  Right.

• 2:15:18Rich Roll?

  You know, I'm the, I'm the plant-based athlete guy, but the truth of the matter is it's been eight years and it's been fantastic. So I've no reason to, to, you know, second guess it unless something changes, but so far, so good. And it's encouraging and cool to hear that that's been part of your journey.

• 2:15:34Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah. A, a big unexpected part of it that's, you know, just, I think, made my life better in lots of different ways.

• 2:15:41Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. I mean, what, what was, uh, you know, when you were going out and you were, you were able to recover better? I mean, you know, is there anything more specific? Just be, being able to bounce back between big runs?

• 2:15:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, like, um, just really tangible things of, of noticing, you know, that I'm increasing my level, my volume, overall volume of training. I started doing, you know, two, three-hour runs several times a week and I was okay, and not just okay, but getting stronger. And a lot of the trails that I was, you know, hiking up, because they were super steep, like I have this one route, Bear Peak and Boulder that I go up, and I was running things that I, I couldn't run before, you know, and, and that's, that's a real difference. It's like, I, I struggle from this section to this section and now I'm, I'm pushing it faster. I'm going faster. And, um, that's always like the big fear, especially if you dealt with injury in, in your life, that you're going to increase

• 2:16:33Speaker 03

  your training volume and you're just going to go backwards. So I was very, I had to learn the hard way that if my brain's tired, you know, if it's my brain pushing back at me, that I keep going, but if it's my body pushing back, I listen to it. And that's a, that's a hard thing to balance.

• 2:16:49Rich Roll?

  Have you, do you work with a coach? How do you come up with your training protocol?

• 2:16:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, I do. I, I think coaching is, is a very valuable tool, you know, and, you know, Michael Jordan had a coach and everybody has a coach and you just, I, I, I can't trust myself to manage me, you know, in that way. Um, so yeah, um, I've, I've, um, benefited greatly from having Marshall Ulrich.

• 2:17:13Rich Roll?

  Oh, he's your coach.

• 2:17:14Speaker 03

  In my rolodex.

• 2:17:15Rich Roll?

  Oh, cool.

• 2:17:16Speaker 03

  He doesn't have time to be full-time coach, but I certainly bounce all of my training by him or through him and get his input on it. And, you know, like when I was, I did a 12-hour treadmill run recently, where I tried to, tried to set the world record on that. And I bounced it by Marshall.

• 2:17:32Rich Roll?

  I didn't know that.

• 2:17:32Speaker 03

  He's like, you gotta do your back-to-back long runs on the treadmill. And I'm like,

• 2:17:37Speaker 03

  damn it, he's right. But I would have never done that myself, you know, I would have.

• 2:17:41Rich Roll?

  Hold on a second. You tried to break the 12-hour treadmill record?

• 2:17:45Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:17:45Rich Roll?

  How'd that go?

• 2:17:47Speaker 03

  When did you do that? I said the American one.

• 2:17:48Rich Roll?

  Oh, you did?

• 2:17:49Speaker 03

  Well, it depends. I mean, there's, there's two, a couple of different sources that track, you know, all of the different stuff.

• 2:17:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:17:55Speaker 03

  So I was going for the Guinness record, and it was, um, quite honestly, kind of a soft record. So I knew it was kind of some low-hanging fruit. It was like 63 miles. And I was gonna try to run 72, 73 miles, which is, you know, decent. Um, and what happened is, um, two days before it, somebody else broke the record. And so they reported that he'd run 90 miles. So I was like, you know, I had all my friends out at my gym, and I had this big thing set up. And I was like, that's all right. I'm just gonna go do the best I can. I wasn't doing it just for the recognition. I was doing it to test myself. And I ran 74.5 miles, something like that. Turns out that the numbers were reported wrong, and he'd only run 76 miles.

• 2:18:37Rich Roll?

  Oh.

• 2:18:41Speaker 03

  So, yeah.

• 2:18:42Rich Roll?

  Oh, my God.

• 2:18:42Speaker 03

  Yeah, that kind of sucked.

• 2:18:44Rich Roll?

  You gotta do it again.

• 2:18:45Speaker 03

  I am in January.

• 2:18:46Rich Roll?

  You are? All right, cool. And when you want, when you want it to be Guinness certified, that's a whole thing, right?

• 2:18:53Speaker 03

  It is. The certification.

• 2:18:54Rich Roll?

  They make you pay a ton of money, and they want all sorts of people out. Like, I know when, because when Patrick Babumian wanted to break that, uh, most weight carried, you know, it was a whole thing to like, make sure that. It was all like copsetic and about like it was gonna meet the requirements to qualify for that because it's pretty stringent, right?

• 2:19:13Speaker 03

  It is, it's really strict. You don't have to give them a bunch of money if you don't want to, but it speeds the process up. You know what I mean? They'll like certify the record right away and they'll send someone out and you can use their logos and marketing and all that. But no, we had to have like, the whole thing had to be video recorded and I needed witnesses and judges and you know, obviously the treadmill.

• 2:19:32Rich Roll?

  Had to calibrate the treadmill and all that kind of stuff.

• 2:19:35Speaker 03

  Yeah. So there's another place called like recordholders.org that tracks it. According to their information, I think I ran like the third best time by an American.

• 2:19:44Rich Roll?

  Nice, man.

• 2:19:45Speaker 03

  According to Guinness, it was.

• 2:19:46Rich Roll?

  That's insane.

• 2:19:47Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:19:48Rich Roll?

  That's so cool.

• 2:19:49Speaker 03

  For a former fat guy.

• 2:19:50Rich Roll?

  Right, that's incredible, man.

• 2:19:52Speaker 03

  But, I mean, there's so many other people who have run so much farther than that out there.

• 2:19:56Rich Roll?

  Listen, there's always somebody who's done some crazier thing, especially now in the ultra world, like, you know, look, man, you know, there's no end of nutty.

• 2:20:05Speaker 03

  There's always someone crazier.

• 2:20:07Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? If you can find, you know, a stone that's unturned in that world, then that's a stone worth overturning, I think. So, alright, so a couple Leadvilles, Badwater 2013, and then you went back to Badwater this year.

• 2:20:22Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:20:23Rich Roll?

  Didn't things go, didn't things quite go as planned? I mean, what is, what's next? Like, what's getting you out of bed? What's motivating you? Like, what is the, what is that stone that's left unturned out there for you?

• 2:20:33Speaker 03

  Well, to me, it's to stay in the game and to keep in the process, right? I always say, you know, my running, my journey, it's not supposed to be anything, it just is what it is. So I just wanna keep going, whatever that means. So I'm always aware and looking around for new things to do and I do have something kind of big planned for next year. It's my 10th sober birthday, so I wanted to do something kind of special for that, something I wasn't prepared on.

• 2:21:03Rich Roll?

  You're like, you got a little smile. I can tell you don't really wanna tell me, but you kinda do.

• 2:21:08Speaker 03

  Well, I'll tell you. I'll tell you.

• 2:21:12Speaker 03

  So, um, I decided that I was gonna go try to run the Leadville 100 twice. I was gonna do the, do the double.

• 2:21:20Rich Roll?

  Whoa.

• 2:21:21Speaker 03

  And, um, the reason why I haven't put it out there is not because I'm afraid of it or anything.

• 2:21:26Rich Roll?

  It's out there now. Well, it will be when I move.

• 2:21:28Speaker 03

  No, that's fine. You know, I've, I've talked to people about it. But, um, you know, people have done double Badwater, triple Badwater, quad Badwater, all that. But no one's done Leadville, so.

• 2:21:37Rich Roll?

  Nobody's done a, a double Leadville?

• 2:21:39Speaker 03

  No one's done it.

• 2:21:39Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 2:21:40Speaker 03

  Um, so I'm sure someone will come along and do it really, really fast.

• 2:21:44Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 2:21:45Speaker 03

  But, um, um, that's okay. I'd, I'd like to be the first person to do it. But if someone comes up out there and, and does it at the same time I do, then we'll just share the trail together.

• 2:21:53Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:21:53Speaker 03

  But I hope no one does it.

• 2:21:55Rich Roll?

  That's pretty cool, man. That's a big deal.

• 2:21:58Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:21:59Rich Roll?

  Exciting.

• 2:22:00Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:22:01Rich Roll?

  So, wait, when is Leadville again?

• 2:22:03Speaker 03

  August.

• 2:22:04Rich Roll?

  August, okay. So, you got a little time. You must be training pretty hard right now, though.

• 2:22:11Speaker 03

  I've got Havillane 100 in a few days. And I got some other, I got the treadmill run planned too in January.

• 2:22:17Rich Roll?

  In January.

• 2:22:18Speaker 03

  And I'll be back at Badwater, too. We're a little unsure exactly when it's gonna be with the new, new changes to the park, but.

• 2:22:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, interesting.

• 2:22:27Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:22:27Rich Roll?

  Um, yeah, in 2013, you ran what is probably the last time that anyone will run that original course.

• 2:22:35Speaker 03

  I think it actually is gonna be back on the original course.

• 2:22:37Rich Roll?

  Oh, really?

• 2:22:38Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's just gonna be different because the, the new study they did and everything won't let them do it between June and July or something. I don't wanna misquote the study, but, but they can't have it in the, in the hottest part of the year.

• 2:22:51Rich Roll?

  So they could have it in August then instead or something?

• 2:22:53Speaker 03

  Yeah, they're gonna do something and, and no one really knows what yet. It's kinda hush, hush. I don't know.

• 2:22:57Rich Roll?

  Oh, interesting.

• 2:22:58Speaker 03

  Hopefully it's not, you know, the week before Leadville or something like that.

• 2:23:01Rich Roll?

  Right, right. I mean, what was the biggest difference that you noticed from the course change from 13 to 14?

• 2:23:08Speaker 03

  It was just a different race and it was a great race. Um, it was, it was put on really well. It was really challenging, super challenging. But, um, you know, it was hot, but not Badwater hot.

• 2:23:18Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 2:23:18Speaker 03

  And the heat came late in the day, which definitely posed different, you know, different challenges. And the first like 23 miles is straight uphill.

• 2:23:27Rich Roll?

  Right, that was the thing.

• 2:23:29Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:23:29Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah.

• 2:23:30Speaker 03

  Well, that's kinda my problem. I ran the first 46 miles in like eight hours this year and.

• 2:23:34Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:23:35Speaker 03

  And then just kinda fell apart like at the worst possible time. There's another big climb that goes up like 5,000 feet, over seven miles, and there's no crew access or anything. You're just kind of out there, and that's when I was really suffering.

• 2:23:49Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Just another learning experience.

• 2:23:52Speaker 03

  It.

• 2:23:53Rich Roll?

  You know, gotta go back, unfinished business.

• 2:23:56Speaker 03

  That's right.

• 2:23:57Rich Roll?

  I want to get back to this idea of transformation, of reinvention. You know, you went from this place of complete despair, complete, you know, disrepair in your health to, you know, attempting Guinness Book of World Record, you know, holding runs. I mean, the arc is just mind-blowing. So for somebody who's out there listening, you know, what is, what is something that you could leave us with to try to help that person out there who's stuck, who can't take that first step,

• 2:24:39Rich Roll?

  or just is paralyzed, you know, knows that there's a better life for him or her out there, and can't see their way through it?

• 2:24:50Speaker 03

  My advice would be that you don't have to see it, you know. In fact, you probably won't be able to ever see it from, the view's obstructed, right? You can't see it from where you are, that you have to trust that there is a way out, and that it's not always going to seem hopeless. And you just have to take that blind first step forward. And that's, that's why this ultra thing speaks so well to me, because the process is the same. You know, the process was the same to wake up on my bathroom floor and say, "I'm gonna, I'm gonna give this all up as it is to line up for bad water." You know, if you, if you try to hold the weight of it, it'll crush you and fold you up, you know, you can't do it. So you gotta trust the process and just be willing

• 2:25:35Speaker 03

  to not wrestle every single voice, every single thought down into the ground, and just, just keep moving forward blindly and... You know, that was the process when you talked about that, that arc. You know, I became a runner and did all these things after I found sobriety. And I did that because I changed kind of my image of who I was. I, I decided I was a different person. But then I realized that I had also pigeonholed who I was as a runner too. And I was, I'm, I'm just doing this, you know, because, you know, I'm always gonna be slow. I used to joke, you know, I'm, I'm, I start out slow and then I taper off and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And I was like, well, maybe that's not true either.

• 2:26:19Speaker 03

  You know, maybe, maybe, maybe that's just a bunch of crap I sold myself too. So, you know, I'm gonna put it out there and just see what happens. And if I'm, if I can't be any faster, that's fine, but I'm not gonna not be faster because I decided I was before I ever tried it. So, don't decide who you are, you know, because of where you are right now.

• 2:26:35Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. That's beautifully put. You know, I think that, that, uh, the approach that I take to sobriety is the same approach that I take to food, is the same approach that I take to training. And what you learn in recovery is, as stupid as it sounds, and it's really fucking stupid, it's one day at a time, man. You know, it's about making sure that my head hits that pillow tonight sober and that's all I gotta worry about. In the context of food, what am I eating right now? What's my next meal? In the context of training, what's the run or the ride that I'm doing today? If I start thinking about some crazy race, you know, you just get, you, you, you get

• 2:27:17Rich Roll?

  scared, you get stuck, you start running stories and scenarios in your mind that, you know, probably are not productive. So I find it super helpful to just be in the moment of what you're doing and getting comfortable with the idea that you don't know where it's going, nor should you, you know? It's like, part of that surrender is saying, I'm not gonna drink today. I don't know what that means, but that's not what I, you know, I'm not somebody who drinks, I'm not doing that today. And it's not what you say, it's what you do.

• 2:27:48Speaker 03

  Absolutely.

• 2:27:48Rich Roll?

  And when you wake up every day and you go running, or you wake up every day and you don't take a drink, then you string that together over a little period of time and the story about who you are begins to change and the way that people interact with you begins to change and how you start to feel about who you are begins to change.

• 2:28:07Speaker 03

  Absolutely. Yeah. It's beautiful.

• 2:28:09Rich Roll?

  And then a whole new journey takes place, right?

• 2:28:12Speaker 03

  You learn something you don't know about yourself.

• 2:28:14Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. David Clark, you are an inspiration, man. This was awesome. Thank you so much.

• 2:28:20Speaker 03

  Thanks, man.

• 2:28:21Rich Roll?

  For coming down. I really appreciate it. The book is called Out There, and you can find it everywhere. It's on Amazon, right?

• 2:28:29Speaker 03

  Yes.

• 2:28:29Rich Roll?

  It's in bookstores. I highly recommend it. It's amazing. It's an amazing story of, like I said before, despair to triumph. It's pretty cool. I can't wait to see what you're gonna do next, man.

• 2:28:40Speaker 03

  Thanks, bud. You know, I've said all along that ultimately, the most power that the story has is if it's not just me, you know? I'm not the only one with this story, especially sitting here talking to you. There's lots of people with this story. I just get lucky enough to be able to talk about it a lot. If it's just one person, you know, it's, "Oh, that guy's special." You know, he's just stubborn or whatever. He's got something that I don't, but that's just not the way it is. You know, there's a lot of us out there. And so, the more, the merrier. If you're out there running and doing crazy things and experiencing life, and you want some other people to do it with, you know, we're there.

• 2:29:18Rich Roll?

  Very cool, man. All right, Dave. Thanks so much.

• 2:29:22Speaker 03

  Right on.

• 2:29:22Rich Roll?

  Peace.

• 2:29:23Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 2:29:24Rich Roll?

  Plants.

• 2:29:28Rich Roll?

  That was tough. Dave, you will be deeply, profoundly missed, but you are loved immensely by myself and so many people. So, run free, my friend. Run free. If you want to support Dave and his family, pick up one of his books, Out There, Broken Open, or his newest book, Eat, Shit, and Die. I think that's a great way to keep Dave in our hearts and also support his family. In addition, as we mentioned in the intro, Mishka and Josh and I set up

• 2:30:10Rich Roll?

  a GoFundMe. I'll put a link in the show notes to that. Please support if you can. And remember, life is short. Life is precious. So, let's make the most out of every moment that we can, my friends. And on May 30, let's try to get outside, run whatever you can to honor this beautiful man's legacy.

• 2:30:37Rich Roll?

  See you back here in a couple days with another episode. Until then, peace, plants, grace, and namaste. [Music]