Aubrey Marcus: A Warrior Poet On Embracing Resistance, Self-Love & Why Outward Success Is An Inside Job

Experimentalist. Unconventional fitness junkie. Entrepreneur. Human optimizer. Psychonaut. This week's guest defies any singular title. But the underlying ethos that defines Aubrey Marcus is best captured in one brief phrase: Warrior Poet. On the business front, Aubrey is the CEO of Onnit -- an optimal human performance company he founded just six years ago that has grown to one of the INC 500 top 500 fastest growing companies in America. Offering a wide array of products, Onnit produces supplements for cognition, mood, bone and joint function; fitness equipment such as kettle bells and jump ropes; personal care products; and foods that range from Himalayan salt to coffee. Online, the Onnit Academy boasts copious helpful information on all things human optimization. And if you visit Onnit HQ in Austin (where we recorded this conversation), you'll find a cutting edge training center & ju jitsu studio that many an elite athlete call home, including Super Bowl champion football players, Stanley Cup winning hockey players, Olympic gold medalists, and mixed martial arts champions. On top of being a very active CEO, Aubrey hosts both the Total Human Optimization Podcast as well as The Aubrey Marcus Podcast, both dedicated to exploring and expanding human happiness and consciousness. The accomplishments are impressive. But what truly interests me about Aubrey is his uniquely mystical path to success. His philosophical perspective on the human experiment. His uncommon devotion to continued expansion of consciousness. And his unusual blend of alpha male masculinity with esoteric spirituality. This is a conversation that examines the metaphysical intangibles that catalyzed Aubrey’s unusual path. It’s about self-worth, self-love and self-discovery — and why outward success is always an inside job. But mostly this is a conversation about what it means to be human. To live meaningfully. And with purpose. I think it's safe to say that Aubrey and I are very different people. But I think that makes this conversation special. I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:44Rich Roll?

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• 1:04Speaker 01

  If you don't feel like you're worthy of the success you're trying to manifest, you'll destroy it. And I think that's a big thing that people don't realize. The law of reciprocity will hold for your own self-belief. You really have to believe that you deserve everything good that's coming to you. You have to love yourself, feel that you're worthy enough, have forgiven yourself, because otherwise you'll bring upon yourself punishment to justify how you feel about yourself. So doing that work is actually getting yourself in alignment with that universal reciprocity. So saying, "Man, I've done the work. I've done the hard labor. I really deserve to reap some of the abundance from this abundant universe." And then you'll start to create situations more favorable for that.

• 1:46Rich Roll?

  That's Aubrey Marcus, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:00Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 2:04Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody. My name is Rich Roll. I'm your host. Welcome or welcome back to my podcast, the show where each week I roll up my sleeves, I get down and dirty, I go deep, I get intimate with some of the planet's most thought provoking thought leaders, change makers, paradigm breakers across a wide expanse of subjects, including health and wellness, fitness, nutrition, relationships, business, creativity, athletic performance, social betterment, and so much more.

• 2:29Rich Roll?

  Man, I gotta tell you, I'm pretty wiped out today. I'm recording this on Saturday afternoon. And so last week I put in this huge training block. Tuesday, I ran a solid hilly 34 miles from Calabasas to Venice, my longest training run to date. And then a day later, I flew up to Lake Tahoe for a brief two-day, high-altitude mini-training camp with my coach, Chris Howth, along with Olympic medal swimmer Caroline Burkle. And I did that mainly to work on cold, open-water, wet suit swimming and running in preparation for the Odelo World Championships coming up in just three weeks. So for those of you who are new to the show, or to me,

• 3:10Rich Roll?

  Odelo, or as they say in America, Otilo, is a swim-run-ultra in the very, very cold, chilly Swedish archipelago south of Stockholm. It's about an eight-to-nine-hour-plus race that entails about 40 miles of running and six miles of swimming with over 40 transitions, traipsing basically island to island, all these like little islands that you're kind of leapfrogging over. And among many things that make this adventure race so unique and interesting is that you compete in teams of two, not as a relay, but you do it together. And my teammate is my coach, Chris Howth. And Thursday, we basically swam and ran most

• 3:50Rich Roll?

  of the day at over 6,000 feet and put in a good percentage of the volume that the race is going to dole out, about six miles of swimming and 20 miles of running over the course of that day. And we were working on acclimating to the weird gear. You do this entire thing in a modified wetsuit with your running shoes on and hand paddles that you swim with and then hold when you're running and a pull buoy strapped to the thigh. So it was all about trying to really acclimate it used to, what it's like to swim with your running shoes on, what it's like to run in a wetsuit, how to communicate with your teammate, strategy with Chris and all that kind of stuff. And then Friday, we put in another long lake swim and then an amazing

• 4:30Rich Roll?

  trail run up at 8,000 feet on the Pacific Crest Trail up at above Donner Peak. And then I flew home in the afternoon yesterday. So I'm pretty tired. My training has not been optimal over the last couple of months with all the travel, but I'm really happy to have put in this huge week. It's my biggest training week in many, many years. I gotta say, the altitude just crushed me. And also, it was meant to be an experience acclimating to cold water, but the lake just wasn't that cold. And running in a wetsuit in a very dry 80-plus degree weather, beyond just the weird looks that we were getting from people driving by, made it more like bad water prep than cold water prep. But in any event, it was a great

• 5:13Rich Roll?

  experience, super instructive and helpful and punishing, but mostly humbling. Otolo is going to be a very, very hard event, and I have nothing but crazy respect for the athletes that specialize in this discipline. And I'm really looking forward to the experience just a few weeks from today. For those who are interested in my training, you can track everything that I've been doing on Strava, just search my name there. I've been putting up Instagram stories. I chronicled the whole thing on Instagram stories the last couple of days. And I also shot a bunch of videos, so I'm hoping to put together kind of like a vlog of that experience. So look forward to that. Also, when I was up in Tahoe, I recorded a podcast with both Chris and Caroline Burkle, and I'm excited to post that later

• 5:58Rich Roll?

  this week. So there'll be more information on all that good stuff then. Okay, today's show. Today, I sit down with a guy who, this guy has intrigued me from afar for quite some time, experimentalist, unconventional fitness

• 6:11Rich Roll?

  Junkie, entrepreneur, human optimizer, Aubrey Marcus. Aubrey is the CEO of a company called Onnit, an optimal human performance company named one of the INC 500 top 500 fastest growing companies in America for 2015. Onnit produces a really cool wide array of products, everything from supplements for cognition, mood, bone, and joint function, fitness equipment like kettle balls and jump ropes, personal care products, and foods that include everything from Himalayan sea salt to coffee and on and on and on. The Onnit HQ is in Austin. It's this really impressive situation there, which in addition to being the headquarters

• 6:51Rich Roll?

  for the actual product company, also comprises this incredible gym and jujitsu studio where everyone from Super Bowl champion football players, Stanley Cup winning hockey players, Olympic gold medalists, and mixed martial arts champions train. It's really impressive. And on top of being a very active CEO, Aubrey is also the host of both the Total Human Optimization Podcast, the Aubrey Marcus Podcast, as well as the Warrior Poet Project, dedicated to exploring and expanding human happiness and consciousness. What Aubrey has built is certainly impressive, like beyond impressive, but that's not really why I wanted to talk to him. I wanted to talk to him because I think he has a very unique and unusual perspective

• 7:35Rich Roll?

  and way of thinking, a very philosophical way of conceptualizing not just fitness and nutrition, but everything from spiritual growth to masculinity, what it means to be human, what it means to live meaningfully and purposefully and expand it. And I'll explain a little bit more about what I mean in a moment, but first.

• 8:06Rich Roll?

  Okay. Also, before we get into the conversation, I want to share some awesome news with you guys in relation to my recent podcast with Scott Harrison of Charity Water. I got this email the other day from Jason, who works with Scott at Charity Water, and this is what he wrote. Rich, "We've seen a great response from your podcast in the last week. As of this morning, there have been 100 new Spring subscribers directly attributed to you with an average subscription value of $25.40. That's $30,480 of annual recurring revenue. Typically, we start to see the engagement tail off, but I will continue to monitor and send you another update in a couple of months. Thank you for helping

• 8:49Rich Roll?

  us grow the Spring." So that's awesome. And then I got another email the other day that says this, "I'll take the opportunity to quickly update you that we now have 115 new Spring subscribers directly attributed to you with an average subscription value of $26.60, equaling $36,708 of annual recurring revenue. That's almost an additional wells worth of value in just two days since we last communicated. Best, Jason." How cool is that, you guys? That is amazing. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. I can't tell you how happy this makes me. Mostly that as a community, this RRP tribe, that you guys, that together, we can make such a profound difference in so many lives. I mean, think about it. Four wells, four villages will now have access to clean water for the

• 9:33Rich Roll?

  very first time in history because you guys took action. The impact of this is astounding. It will have just unimaginable consequences on current and future lives beyond our imagination. It just blows my mind. It warms my heart. I'm so inspired by all of you that we, as a company, my company, has decided to sponsor one well, an entire well, every single year from this point forward. So check it out. That makes almost five wells this year alone. Five wells, five villages, permanently transformed for the better by virtue of this little podcast that I put out every week. Unbelievable. I am so grateful. But here's the thing. Can

• 10:18Rich Roll?

  we make it 10? I think that's pretty darn doable, you guys. Most of you guys have an extra 20, 30, maybe even 40 bucks a month that you can donate for such an extraordinary life-changing payoff. So I want you to really think about the impact that each and every one of you guys can have, and how amazing it will feel to make that impact. So stop what you're doing and really consider making a donation to Charity Water via the Spring, their monthly subscription service. To learn more and to join, all you gotta do is go to cwt r.org/richrollspring. Cwtr.org/richrollspring. I'll put that in the show notes as well.

• 11:00Rich Roll?

  Really important that you use that URL so that they know that you're coming to them through this podcast, and together we can cultivate this community spirit over building these wells. And again, thank you so much. So Aubrey. Aubrey first came on to my radar via his many appearances on Joe Rogan's podcast, which I listen to frequently. And like I mentioned previously, I just dug how he thinks about life and how he articulates his unique perspective in a compelling way. And it struck me that the two of us together, on the face of things, two very different types of people with some varying opinions and perspectives, would make for a compelling conversation. So when I was in Austin this past spring, I made a point of reaching out

• 11:43Rich Roll?

  to Aubrey. Aubrey was game. We sat down, and what transpired is what I think is a pretty interesting conversation. So this is a conversation about many, many things. It's about the vision quest that catalyzed Aubrey's unusual path. It's about ayahuasca, his perspective on that, which I think is pretty interesting. It's about his entrepreneurial journey in leveraging podcasting to launch and grow on it. It's about his upcoming book, On the Day. But mostly, it's a conversation about how self-worth, self-discovery, and the internal work are really the keys to outward success. Okay, this might be my longest introduction in the history of this podcast, so I appreciate

• 12:26Rich Roll?

  you guys listening. Should we talk to Aubrey? Let's talk to Aubrey.

• 12:32Rich Roll?

  All right, man.

• 12:33Speaker 01

  The warrior poet.

• 12:35Rich Roll?

  In the flesh, man.

• 12:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, I am.

• 12:37Rich Roll?

  You ready to rock?

• 12:38Speaker 01

  I'm ready. Let's do it.

• 12:39Rich Roll?

  Nice to meet you.

• 12:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, good to meet you too, brother.

• 12:41Rich Roll?

  I've been following you from afar for a spell. Heard you a bunch on Rogan, other podcasts, and been tracking how you've built this incredible company and wanted to have a chance to meet you and talk to you. It's funny, I was in Austin and it just occurred to me yesterday that I was like, I should try to figure out how to get in touch with you. Like it's a last minute thing. And I realized we have the same book agent, so I called up Bird. And I was like, Bird, you gotta put me in touch with Aubrey. So I'm glad that you made time on a last. I didn't expect you to be able to carve out the time, so I appreciate it.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Well, I was at home writing, so.

• 13:20Rich Roll?

  You were working on the book.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Look, I don't need that much of an excuse to get me out of writing. So I was like, oh, yes, absolutely. I would love to.

• 13:29Rich Roll?

  It's cool. Bird's awesome. He's been, I don't know what your experience has been with him, but he's a fantastic guy and I'm so grateful to have him in my corner.

• 13:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, likewise.

• 13:37Rich Roll?

  You're in good hands. How are you doing with the book?

• 13:39Speaker 01

  It's a motherfucker, man.

• 13:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 13:41Speaker 01

  It's a beast, especially research writing. Like if I can just espouse philosophy that doesn't need citations, I can write pretty quick and pretty efficiently. And I'm really comfortable in that realm, you know, drawing on personal experience and kind of logic and kind of sorting your way through complex metaphysical issues. But when it comes down to the nitty gritty and every fact that you say needs a citation.

• 14:04Rich Roll?

  You gotta back it up.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 14:05Rich Roll?

  You can't just like have diarrhea out of the mouth like you come on a podcast.

• 14:08Speaker 01

  But it's good. It's a discipline that, you know, I think is helping build my skill set, my knowledge base. You know, this is, in a way, you know, helping me sharpen my sword, you know, get my game a little tighter so that. And because I've found some things that, things that you even take for granted, you know, random things that you think you know, but then you actually go look for the citation. You're like, well, maybe that's not quite right. You know, maybe that's just one of those things you take for granted. But when you really look deeper into it, you find out some things that you didn't know. So it's been a good process.

• 14:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool. I mean, my experience. With that is that you go into it with an idea of what you think it's going to be. And then it starts to tell you what it is and that leads you in sometimes a little bit of a different direction.

• 14:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 14:52Rich Roll?

  Are you like, what, do you have like a release date? Like, are you

• 14:55Speaker 01

  I have a manuscript due date, which is June 30th.

• 14:58Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 14:58Speaker 01

  And then from there, we're looking at March, April release.

• 15:01Rich Roll?

  That's cool. Is it still, it's called seize the day?

• 15:04Speaker 01

  Own the day.

• 15:04Rich Roll?

  Own the day. Okay. Right, right, right. That's cool, man. I'm excited for you with that.

• 15:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, thank you.

• 15:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a great, it's a great process to go through.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  It's cool to get the whole cornerstone of, of my philosophy, you know, about human optimization down in one place too. You know, because it's cool to write articles, but then you have to rely on this whole giant blog and people linking everywhere. But now this is going to be like, all right, this is a perfect day as far as I can see.

• 15:31Rich Roll?

  Right. So the idea is it takes you through one day and kind of how to manage your day and optimize every aspect of it.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  What does one perfect day look like?

• 15:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  You know, and obviously

• 15:39Rich Roll?

  It's a unique take on, you know, kind of how to live your best life.

• 15:43Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. If you can do one day, then you can do five days, you can do 10 days, but at least you know what that one day is. A little bite sized entry.

• 15:50Rich Roll?

  Let's talk about your philosophy because you're, you're, you're an interesting cat, dude. You're like, you're a little bit of a conundrum, you know, on the one hand, you're a super alpha male kind of guy. But you're also the warrior poet. You have this, you know, very spiritual side to you. That I think traditionally or historically has not been sort of associated with masculinity. So I think it brings up a really interesting conversation about like gender identity. And what does it mean to be masculine or to be a man? And I feel like we're in a very interesting kind of phase in culture right now where those lines are getting blurred in a kind of unique way.

• 16:29Rich Roll?

  Like suddenly it's all about transgender. You know, you see like a lot of things that, you know, 10 years ago was not part of like the cultural discussion and now it very much is, but I think you're, you sit at this interesting intersection point between extreme masculinity, but also super interested in, you know, more esoteric subjects that I think were

• 16:51Rich Roll?

  Kind of traditionally the purview of, you know, the guy in the white robe with a man bun.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 16:56Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean?

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 16:57Rich Roll?

  So talk about that a little bit.

• 16:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, that was the idea of the warrior poet, right? Like before there was on it before any of this. I mean, I had this idea that we should be able to travel down both extremes and experience life to the fullest by expanding the spectrum of experience. So, you know, be able to know what it feels like to, you know, throw a punch or a kick and see someone's knees wobble. You know, and know what it feels like to be fasting on a mountaintop for five days and getting closer, closer contact with your consciousness. Like all of these different things that used to actually in in some warrior traditions, like the Bushido of of Japan, where a great samurai like Miyamoto Musashi or great swordsman would be the best swordsman and also great at calligraphy and writing and this kind of well-balanced approach, or even Socrates, who is

• 17:43Speaker 01

  known for his philosophy, but also like ferocious, like a lion in battle. You know, where where people were more balanced, as you said, people got kind of steered into one way or another, whether it was that kind of classic warrior archetype of a physical athlete. You know, kind of the the jock that you see it showing up in all these eighties movies, right? Or it was the Wall Street broker who had the same idea, but just a different battleground. You know, it was business instead of sports. But missing that other side, and then there was the other side. There was the hippie. There was the stoner. There was the philosopher who was, you know, out of touch with their body. And I was, I really saw the value of both sides and, you know,

• 18:22Speaker 01

  I didn't invent it. This, as I said, this is part of old warrior cultures, but that idea of the warrior poet, I thought this fuck, yeah, that's the way I want to live.

• 18:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, if you go back in time, if you go back in history, you know, whether it's the samurais or or every other sort of religious, spiritual tradition, there was, you know, this very masculine sort of iconic.

• 18:44Rich Roll?

  Persona that embodied all of those things. I mean, Shiva, I mean, you could go on and on and on.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 18:50Rich Roll?

  Who these characters are. And we've lost that, right? Like, you're either somebody who lives in their head because you're an executive, or you're just in the workforce, or you're an athlete. But we've segmented these things. And we've decided that you have to adopt one identity or the other, and that's how you define yourself, and that's who you are. And in some sense, we've lost that, that, you know, enthusiasm for being, not necessarily renaissance, but just for being sort of more comprehensive in how we, you know, walk through the world.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's balance to me. I mean, really, I wanted to find balance by stretching the spectrum out to the extremes as far as possible and understanding, you know, both elements, like what, how, instead of just finding balance by staying really close to the center, that wasn't interesting to me. Or being out of balance by being too far on the inside or too far on the young side. I wanted to say, all right, let's broaden the spectrum. Let me go as far out on each side as I can. You know, experience the most extreme spirituality where I'm, you know, shedding the identity of myself, my ego and my body as aggressively as I can, or go in the other side and be embodied as much as I can

• 20:04Speaker 01

  and go into some of the toughest sports and competitions and trials of of physicality that I could find. And that's, that's where some of the the greatest magic is that you can find is just testing your limits on both sides. So that's become a real passion of mine.

• 20:18Rich Roll?

  Self-knowledge and through experience. But it also brings up, you know, how you define balance in your life. You know, I think we sort of think about balance as sort of being balanced in every moment throughout the day, like where we're giving everything its proper due and attention moment by moment. And, you know, my experiences, my relationship with balance is very different. Like, I go into the extreme and vacillate between one thing or the next. And in that sort of macro sense,

• 20:47Speaker 01

  I think I'm a balanced individual, but when I'm in something, I'm like all in it. Right? That's a, it's a different kind of way of thinking about. It's like a longer time window that you're looking at balance, right? And it's just stretching that, stretching that graph out to months, years, a lifetime. Cause you could pursue something on one side for years even. But then to find balance, perhaps in the recovery from that, or in the other side, you spend years on the other side. So it's stretching the window by which you define balance out to your life. And then that's how you decide balance. Cause I, I agree, like to pursue and to really push the boundaries on either side. You need to dedicate chunks of time. You know, you need to do longer spiritual fasts or diets, you know, like I've done to really push that envelope.

• 21:32Speaker 01

  You can't just do it in a day or an afternoon. Right. You know, you have to dedicate yourself to that. Same with the other pursuits. Where does this, uh, you know, where does this, where does this come from? Like, what's the origin story here, man? I think for me. I mean, I had a naturopath stepmom, right? I did, yeah. So I'm imagining like a little bit of a hippie mom, hippie mom. That helped, that definitely helped. Um, I think what it really was is I was, I was really into sports. You know, sports were kind of everything when I was growing up. You grew up here in Austin? Uh, high school here in Austin. Uh huh. And obviously high school sports in Texas are crazy. We would get 3,000, 5,000 people at our basketball games.

• 22:13Speaker 01

  It was an obsession at that point. And so I was pretty out of balance and I was at that point, kind of pretty atheistic, actually. I'd seen the, what I felt like were the faults and failures of organized religion and discarded all spirituality because of that. Um, but then as kind of like a rite of passage, when I was 18, um, you know, and my father actually, you know, encouraged me to do this, to go out with a shaman in the mountains of New Mexico and have my first psychedelic experience. Your dad encouraged you to do that?

• 22:44Rich Roll?

  What kind of dad do you have?

• 22:45Speaker 01

  Which was rad.

• 22:46Rich Roll?

  Your dad's like a businessman, right?

• 22:48Speaker 01

  He was, yeah, he was a commodities trader, but he also sought this other path. And when I was, when I was 18, he encouraged me, he's like, alright, you should go out and have your vision quests, you know?

• 22:58Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 22:58Speaker 01

  And um, I was super nervous, never done anything like that.

• 23:01Rich Roll?

  That's a trip, like, cause I would, I would imagine a guy like that's like, look, man, you gotta go to business school.

• 23:06Speaker 01

  And you know, he was that way too. He was like, he was a real, a unique character as well, cause he was still, I mean, he still wanted me to be like a bond analyst or some kind of very conventional, you know, go work at Goldman Sachs. He wanted me to go to the, you know, go to the school with the right, you know, credentials, all of that. But then he also understood that there was some value, cause he'd found that to get balance in his own life, cause he was way out of balance. So he'd used that kind of, you know, experiential spirituality path to help bring a, a modicum of balance in his life.

• 23:38Rich Roll?

  That's interesting. So this, the whole psychonaut thing comes from the dad, you know?

• 23:43Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:43Rich Roll?

  But I mean, there's obviously, that's part of your dad. I mean, he wouldn't have married a, a naturopath doctor.

• 23:48Speaker 01

  Right, right, right. If he hadn't figured out some few things that plants could do for him.

• 23:53Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. So you're 18 when you do that?

• 23:55Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 23:56Rich Roll?

  So where do you, where do you go?

• 23:58Speaker 01

  I went to the mountains, it was the mountains of New Mexico.

• 24:00Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 24:00Speaker 01

  And um, and then took a combination of psilocybin and MDMA.

• 24:06Rich Roll?

  And you're still in high school?

• 24:08Speaker 01

  I was just graduated.

• 24:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  About to go to University of Richmond. And uh, and I went out there and I had no idea what to expect, you know? I was worried I was gonna lose my mind, I'd never been out of control, but I just kinda...

• 24:21Rich Roll?

  Were you like a partyer in high school or just pure jog?

• 24:23Speaker 01

  Drinking.

• 24:24Rich Roll?

  Drinking, yeah. Texas football.

• 24:26Speaker 01

  I mean, I think I smoked weed once with my brothers and just ate a bunch of food and listened to like, you know, Led Zeppelin or something like that, but nothing that I would consider, you know, anything more than out of the party setting.

• 24:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 24:38Speaker 01

  You know? Um, so yeah, so went in there and, and within like two hours, you know, I felt my body pretty much evaporate and something else persists. And that thing with now, I would quite comfortably call consciousness. I didn't even have a name for it. I was like, whoa, there's something beyond this physical experience. And I was, at that point, it just recalibrated. You know, my whole life, you know, from, from there, I realized, all right, you know, this is another side of life. This, you know, this consciousness, this feeling that I have now is as good as hitting that game winning shot. It's just completely different. It's on a whole other side of the spectrum and it's as valuable as anything I've ever pursued

• 25:20Speaker 01

  on the other side because the, the knowledge and the information and the way I was able to look at things and reevaluate all my decisions in my life. I realized that that needed to be a key part of, you know, of my path. And so that really helped propel me along that side. Now, a few other things, you know, I always did like writing poetry. I always, I had, you know, kind of a writer's instinct for a long time and that was something of a balance to the, to the sports.

• 25:47Rich Roll?

  I would imagine that got, that probably got repressed though in high school.

• 25:51Speaker 01

  It did. Well, it didn't, it didn't, it didn't work.

• 25:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:53Speaker 01

  You know, I would write, I would, every girl I wrote a poem to, like instantly, instantly, my stock just plummeted. You know, it was so frustrating to me because in an era long gone, you know, that was a, that was courtship, right? That was how you won someone over if you were the, a great athlete.

• 26:10Rich Roll?

  Bad assery to be able to do that.

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. Exactly. But it was just laughable. You know, you'd won and at that time, the kind of that, still that kind of counterculture movement of like the person who didn't give a fuck was the person that was the most highly sought after.

• 26:22Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 26:23Speaker 01

  You know, it was in that kind of Nirvana era, right? And, and I think, uh, I think that was really frustrating to me. And I, if I go back and read my old journals, it's just littered with frustration. Like, ah, I got all of these talents that would have been appreciated back a long time ago. And here I am and it's not being rewarded by society.

• 26:41Rich Roll?

  So you come back from this vision quest experience.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:45Rich Roll?

  Like, what do you tell dad?

• 26:48Speaker 01

  I mean, I told him everything and he just kinda, he'd been there. He'd know, he'd known what that was and he just, you know, acknowledged like, all right, you know, and now the beauty of it is this is a, it's a show, not tell kind of a, kind of thing. It's not like he was. Trying to put his own interpretation or his own, you know, spin on what happened. You know, he's like, well, now you've seen this path for yourself and, you know, this path is your own. So explore it as, as you will. And, and that's, that's the cool part about it.

• 27:21Rich Roll?

  So you head to college and, and now you got a different, you, you, your perspective's a little bit.

• 27:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, for sure.

• 27:27Rich Roll?

  Right? So you end up studying like philosophy, right?

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:30Rich Roll?

  And civilization.

• 27:31Speaker 01

  Classical civilization, double major. Yeah.

• 27:33Rich Roll?

  Uh huh. Um, yeah, that's a, you know, that's, that's a unique choice for a jock type guy.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 27:40Rich Roll?

  Right? And so you're starting.

• 27:41Speaker 01

  I had to figure out some things after that experience.

• 27:44Rich Roll?

  Well, I would imagine you're kind of gestating on a bunch of different, you know, sort of spiritual ideas. Right? So the atheism is kind of getting pushed aside and you, you're making room for some new concepts.

• 27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause I felt something that I felt like extended beyond what, you know, rationalist, imperialist, science could explain. You know, I felt something that felt eternal beyond the existence of the body. You know, what religious, in religion, they would call the soul, like what, what in, you know, you could also call consciousness. Um, I felt that. So I needed to find my own way to explain that. And, you know, so I went deep into religion, philosophy of religion. And I tried to understand it from that perspective, from the science perspective, and then carve out my own, you know, spiritual metaphysical understandings as well.

• 28:33Rich Roll?

  So how do you define that for yourself today?

• 28:37Speaker 01

  That's really a challenge because it's, um, it draws from a lot of different language and lexicons that, you know, have a lot of different people have talked about, you know? So I like to use the word consciousness. I like the idea that there's a collective consciousness or a source, uh, which could also in a religious context be called God, this like universal force that I've come into contact with and felt and experienced. And it feels like we are a small piece of that, like we're one facet on this giant diamond. You know, one grain of sand on this giant beach, but the beach is also a force itself. And so you can get that from, you know, in, in different ways and.

• 29:20Speaker 01

  Eastern philosophies and other philosophies, they just have different lexicons and different kind of concepts, even in, you know, traditional monotheistic religions, if you go into the deeper mystical teachings, you'll find the ways that they describe this. But, you know, I really encourage the experiential path, like go out and don't take anybody's word for it, just go out and experience it, find the ways that you can get in touch with these forces, whether it is psychedelics, or meditation, or ecstatic dance, or float tanks, or, you know, yoga, whatever, whatever your path is, all of them are valid, you know, holotropic breathing, or shamanic breathing, all of these ways can start to get you in touch, and then see for yourself, find out what you, what you can find.

• 30:04Rich Roll?

  So it doesn't really, it's, it doesn't, you can't, it can't be sort of quantified in terms of, well, I'm sort of Buddhist, or I'm sort of, you're just looking for universal truths that, that kind of find their through line and thematically resonate with you through the various experiences that you have.

• 30:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, I think all of these lines of demarcation, where you say you're one thing or another thing, are ultimately fallacies anyways, you know, like, even, even national borders, you know, like, oh, I'm American, not Canadian, well, we're fucking everything at this point, you know, we picked up little bits of all of these cultures, little ideas from everything, you know, but we just carve out these lines and say, okay, we're on this side of the line, or this side of the line, that's not real, I mean, even like, even these, we just like these binary systems, even like the idea of guilt or innocence, like, is anybody ever really fully guilty or fully innocent, but nonetheless, at a certain point, we draw a line and say, okay, you're guilty, you go to jail, you're not guilty, you don't go to jail.

• 30:58Rich Roll?

  It's the nature of the human brain, you know, we need to categorize everything, we need to put everything in a certain box, so that we can understand it, and I think it's a control thing, too, that way, we feel like we, you know, we feel safe, right? But, it is all illusion, I mean, why do we even look at the globe the way we look at, why should, you know, what if you just flipped it upside down, and redrew all the maps, you know, I mean, you would look at it, and it would look like a different planet to you, you know what I mean? And that's just a tiny example of how we do that throughout our day with everything, and it applies to everything, whether it's politics. It applies to nutrition and the way we think about food and we break it down into well, it's carbohydrates, protein and fat, but you know, really that's, that's a very deductive

• 31:41Rich Roll?

  approach to looking at not just food, but anything.

• 31:44Speaker 01

  Or, or saying something's good for you or bad for you, right? When everything is dose dependent and person dependent, you know, that's good fat. Well, yeah, a hundred percent. But if you ate only sticks of butter for your whole life, no longer is it good, you know, and it's something that's bad for you at the right time and the right place, maybe it's okay. You know what I mean? So yeah, we do like to, to create these buckets where we can put things, but really it's all, as you said, an illusion.

• 32:11Rich Roll?

  So when you're in college, are you starting to feel like you're, I, I would imagine that's, this is creating a little bit of attention with, with, you know, your social environment, right? If you're in college, it's about, you know, you know, what college is about is partying and going to class. And if you're starting to explore these more esoteric ideas, that's going to set you apart a little bit, I would imagine.

• 32:33Speaker 01

  It did, but you know, I always, I always find myself being able to relate to people on their, on their level, you know, and I didn't have a big agenda. There was no kind of proselytizing, you know, concept where I was trying to convert people to my way because I didn't even know what my way was. So if the, you know, the idea of the time was all right, beer pong, get drunk, you know, go try to find some girls to talk to. Like I could get right in that mode without, you know, stress, just like, all right, that's the, that's the micro game we're playing in the big game, you know, like, got it, let's have fun doing that. And so I was able to kind of maneuver through that. But what I was frustrated in was that these, what I felt like, you know, was the full representation

• 33:17Speaker 01

  of who I was, you know, certainly wasn't appreciated or celebrated at large, you know, it was kind of like a curiosity rather than the goal, you know, like everybody wanted to just put you on one side or the other. And, um, you know, I didn't fit in, in, I didn't fit in either side, you know, I fit, I fit in both sides.

• 33:36Rich Roll?

  Were you starting to go on more of these vision quests at this point?

• 33:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Where, where does the ayahuasca come in?

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Ayahuasca didn't come in till later. So that was kind of the, um, that one is harder to do locally, you know, especially at that time when I was doing, that was. Six years ago, and it's amazing how how much more prevalent it's become in six years with shamans traveling, you know, all through the States and offering ayahuasca here locally. But back then, that was a lot less common. And also now, you know, I run in those fields. So maybe I'm more exposed to it. But I do know that it's a lot more common. So anyways, I just read this book.

• 34:15Speaker 01

  Book was called Shaman, Healer, Sage. Interesting book, but I knew that that the author of that book was leading retreats down to Peru, where he was offering ayahuasca, not him himself, but he partnered with some other shamans. So I just wrote in a letter and signed myself up. And it was right about the time that I was starting on it. But at that point, Onnit was much more of a vague idea. I kind of had, you know, thoughts that it was just going to be, it was going to make like hangover pills was really what I was thinking about making. It's had a very kind of niche idea of what Onnit could be. And then went out to do the ayahuasca. And not only, you know, I've talked about these

• 34:57Speaker 01

  experiences many times, but not only was it incredible personally, you know, changed the way that I approached death, my fear of death showed me different capabilities, it felt like of my consciousness and the ability to heal my own body, it's felt like and do amazing magical seemingly magical things. It also gave me a very clear direction of what Onnit could be and the way that I needed to, you know, adjust things and and do things in accord with the most fluid path to allow myself to express, you know, what was really inside myself and allow, you know, people to really understand and grasp what this thing was going to become.

• 35:41Rich Roll?

  That's amazing. So you came out of it with that level of clarity?

• 35:44Speaker 01

  It was really incredible. I mean, I could see, I could visualize everything all the way through, you know, even to now, like, nothing that's happened with Onnit has been a surprise. And I think a lot of that was because that night, under the, under the influence of that, you know, hallucinogenic DMT containing brew in the jungle, listening to the ikeros and the sounds of the birds and the stealthy jaguars, you know, going through the jungle and the crocodiles in the water and this whole crazy environment that I was in, I was able to see something incredibly practical about how to, how to build this business.

• 36:21Rich Roll?

  It's super interesting to me. I've had a bunch of people on the podcast who have had similar experiences and I certainly can't deny the the impact of those experiences on various people's lives and it's undeniable in your life. I see it in, I see it in Rogan as well. It's, it's curious for me and, and I, I'm like, you know, I, I have like a mixed emotions about it. I'm a long time sober dude, like from drug and alcohol, in drug and alcohol recovery for a long time. So when I think about somebody saying like, "The answer to your dilemma, you know, lies in the, uh, the power

• 37:05Rich Roll?

  of a mind altering substance," that's like good news to me, you know, like that triggers my inner addict and it makes me, you know, crave that experience, which is scary to me, right? Cause I, the danger flags run up for me. And so I don't know that I'll ever do it. Um, but I've talked to so many people, um, that have had, you know, amazing experiences with it. So I have, I have no judgment on it. I have no experience with it directly. But I also think, here's one thing I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on. I have some friends who have not only done ayahuasca, they've made it like this incredibly frequent practice. Like I was with a friend in New York City a couple of months ago and went out to lunch with him and he was telling me about all his various experiences. And I think he said

• 37:49Rich Roll?

  he had done it like, uh, like, like almost a hundred times in like a year and a half.

• 37:57Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 37:58Rich Roll?

  Like that's literally like, "Hey, it's Tuesday."

• 38:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:00Rich Roll?

  Let's, and I was like, "Whoa," you know? Like if you can't find what you're looking for through, you know, a couple periodic, you know, experiences, like why are you going back? Why are you going back? Why are you going back?

• 38:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and that's, that's, there's a lot of good points there. And I think- You know, as I was saying earlier about whether something's good or bad, you can't say that ayahuasca is either a drug or a medicine. It just depends completely on the user, how you're using it, the intent from which you're using it. You know, like Tylenol, for example, it's a good medicine for a lot of people, but you take too much, your liver's gonna fail and you're gonna die. You know, ayahuasca in the same way, it's, it can be an incredibly good medicine, but it can also just be a drug. You know, it can be something that you can use to chase altered states of consciousness.

• 38:47Rich Roll?

  Or just to get out of however you're feeling, yeah, to escape your reality.

• 38:51Speaker 01

  And so I think it, all of these things are neutral tools and it just depends on how you use them. But the experience, you know, go back to your sobriety thing, the experience tends to feel like hyper sobriety. Like it tends to feel like you're now less drunk on your ego and your delusions and all of these things that we're drunk with in our waking life and all of a sudden you're actually sober for the first time in your life. Like the fears, the greed, the, the ego, the identity, all of these things that have clouded your vision and made you think a certain way. It feels like that gets lifted and for the first time you're actually clear headed. And so it's an interesting thing because a lot of people, and I'm not necessarily advocating that that's, it's a path for you,

• 39:31Speaker 01

  but a lot of people who have had addiction issues and have had drug issues, you know, it's a much different experience than I think you'd expect because it's almost like you're more you than you've ever been. So it's like, it really does feel like hyper sobriety.

• 39:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, no, it's interesting. I mean, I, I had this guy, Gabor Mate on the podcast.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know. I just had, I had Gabor in mind too. Amazing guy.

• 39:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he, he was incredible. I mean, he blew my mind and, and we had this amazing talk and, and ayahuasca didn't come up in the context of our conversation, but afterwards when we were done, he's like, listen, you might benefit from this. Call me, you know, and it's like, you know, I was just like, I don't know, man.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  I mean, you got the invite from Gabor Mate, man. That's like, that's about as good as it gets.

• 40:16Rich Roll?

  But I also have lots of, I have lots of, you know, friends and, and people in recovery who are like, yeah, I don't think you need it. You're on, you're on your path and you're a seeker. And I've had, you know, I can't say that I've had the kind of experiences that you have had, but I've had glimpses of perhaps what that might be like through, you know, ultra endurance sports, like when it just strips you away because you're just, you're, you're, you're so beyond exhausted and you're forced to meet yourself in a very pure way. I've had interesting experiences with holotropic breathing. You know, I've had some weird ones with that where in the wake of it, like the first couple of times I did it were ecstatic experiences, almost like feeling like I was high. And then I went through a phase where I would do it occasionally and I would get super angry

• 40:59Rich Roll?

  and I would have to like lock myself in a room and avoid other people for like 24 hours. So it's obviously bringing something up from my subconscious or, you know, some aspect of my consciousness that needed to be looked at.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and that's, you know, for people who are thinking like holotropic breathing, like that's, that's like kind of the easy thing compared to ayahuasca. Like you can't discredit any of these, these ways that you get to the, to the mountain. There's multiple paths up the, up the same mountain. You know, you're really trying to get yourself to that state of consciousness. And holotropic breathing for me has been as cathartic as any other medicine that I've ever taken from iboga to ayahuasca to all of these, you know, really intense psychedelics. You know, just sitting in a room, breathing with a bunch of people, you know, I probably cried more tears than, and felt more emotions, you know, pushed through me than with any other modality.

• 41:55Speaker 01

  It's really interesting, you know, every medicine has its own path, every medicine path has its own kind of unique characteristics and you can't say that one is stronger than the other. You can't, and I have people do that all the time with, with drugs, like there's a hierarchy of these plant medicines. They'll say, oh, I could never do mushrooms because one time I ate too much weed and I freaked out. I was like, yeah, everybody who eats too much weed freaks out. Like that's not the easy one, you know, like none of these are the easy button. Like whatever your path is, and, and I know I've never done any kind of ultra endurance, but I've been around fighters during weight cuts. And there's a point, and I've talked to Mike Dolce about this too, there's a point during the weight cut where you're completely depleted of fluids, of food, of everything.

• 42:36Speaker 01

  And that point where it just feels like the same parts of the brain that power down when you're on psychedelics, you know, they power down too. And you have what's left was like the essential consciousness of the individual. And a lot of times you have to fight through different anger and emotions and things that'll come up at that point, but then you're left with, you know, real truth, you know, at the baseline. So, so many different ways up the mountain and all are valid and all are good.

• 43:05Rich Roll?

  I think whatever you choose, it's about the journey up the mountain.

• 43:09Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 43:09Rich Roll?

  It's not about the peak. It's not about getting there.

• 43:12Speaker 01

  There's no destination, man.

• 43:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's about devoting yourself to personal growth and whatever modality seems to resonate with you. And there's certainly plenty of those now.

• 43:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:28Rich Roll?

  All right. So you come back from this experience and you have this clarity about, about Onnit. Uh, and you know, you just gave me a tour before the podcast. It's quite an operation you got going here, man. I mean, it is like impressive. It's super cool.

• 43:43Rich Roll?

  And it hasn't been that long, right? It's been like seven years?

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. July 2011, we launched AlphaBrain and that was a couple of months after I got back from the jungle. And, um, that was really where I count this, count the founding of the Onnit as we see now. You know, AlphaBrain kind of took this company in the direction that it is headed now.

• 44:04Rich Roll?

  Is that still the best, best selling product that you make?

• 44:07Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I use that. I use AlphaBrain. I use ShroomTech and I use the Hemp Force. I appreciate that you have vegan products.

• 44:14Speaker 01

  Nice. Yeah, absolutely.

• 44:16Rich Roll?

  No, it's good stuff, man. And, uh, and what you're doing like 28 million in revenue now, something like that?

• 44:23Speaker 01

  Those are, those are old numbers. Yeah, that was from the, that was from the INC 500 list that we made. Um, doing a little better than that now, but you know, don't really talk about the hard numbers too much, even though that, that INC report, you know, kind of let out the, let the cat out of the bag. But yeah, everything is going really well. And, um, so many different areas that have been, you know, maybe if you looked at the bottom line, not the biggest part, but it just make this thing such a rich experience, like the gym that you saw.

• 44:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, the gym is amazing.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  And then now we're partnering with Bang Muay Thai and, um, you know, 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu. We have a yoga studio franchise, Black Swan Yoga, which is, you know, one of the main stages.

• 45:03Rich Roll?

  Is a yoga studio here also too?

• 45:04Speaker 01

  In Austin, not on, not onsite.

• 45:06Rich Roll?

  On site here.

• 45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, we have a, we have a couple, we have three studios in town and one in Houston.

• 45:11Rich Roll?

  Right. And I was saying to you, like, if you're, if you're a serious athlete and you live in Austin, like there's, you're insane if you're not coming here to train.

• 45:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, this is the spot.

• 45:19Rich Roll?

  It's pretty impressive.

• 45:20Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 45:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's really cool. And I, you know, there's a couple of things that come to mind in thinking about this. Like, first of all, you know, there is no market more crowded than the supplement market, right? And there's also no market that is rife with more snake oil salesmen and charlatans and people trying to rip you off. And, you know, I know a little bit, not a lot, but a little bit about, you know, this world. And I know that there's a lot of junk out there, right? And so, first of all, just the fact that you were able to create a brand and distinguish yourself and kind of rise above that fray is no small feat. And secondarily, to be able to, you know, put out a quality product amidst all the bullshit that's out there.

• 46:01Rich Roll?

  Because, you know, these labs and like, you know, if you're not on it, if you're not on it, you know, if you're not on top of what's going on and paying attention, you know, who knows what goes into this stuff? It's not regulated and it's, you know, it's frightening, I think, for the, for the consumer or the customer who wants a quality product goes to the store and it's like, how do you know what's what?

• 46:20Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah, it's a, it's an interesting space. It definitely doesn't have a lot of positive PR surrounding it. And I think that's really justified. I think the old model was, you know, pump and dump. You know, let's get a lot of hype behind something. Oh, this is the new weight loss extravaganza, you know, buy this. You don't have to do a thing and you'll lose a bunch of weight. And, and all of these different things that people were talking about that really weren't, weren't real. And then people using that distributor model, which really forces them to cut the costs. Like, if you're selling to a distributor, selling to a wholesaler, who's then selling to the customer, it really forces you to drive your costs to the floor and then put almost nothing in your, in your supplements.

• 47:00Speaker 01

  And I think what's really allowed us, first of all, our ethos, you know, what we stand for, and also the fact that we are selling direct, largely just direct to the customers. It's allowed us to have a much higher cost of goods and really put some great stuff in our products.

• 47:16Rich Roll?

  You stepped into retail, though. I've seen it, you know,

• 47:19Speaker 01

  It's at a Sprouts.

• 47:20Rich Roll?

  At Air One, in, near my house, that you guys, they're carrying it there.

• 47:24Speaker 01

  And we have, we have room for that. What we don't have is, like, the bigger chains, you know, they all go through distributors. And so distributor, if the distributor... Distributors were selling to sprouts, then selling to the consumer. At that point, you know, the margins just aren't there because we have to put as much quality shit as we can in there. And then also fund the things like the clinical trials that we've done, which I think is a real differentiator. I don't think I've seen anybody that's using largely plant-based products and then taking them through rigorous clinical trials like we've done with AlphaBrain, like two double-blind randomized trials with the Boston Center for Memory, who reported, you know, people are saying, oh, you paid for it. Yeah, but they reported 12 null results findings in a row before they did AlphaBrain. I mean, this is the credibility of their entire organization on the line.

• 48:07Speaker 01

  You know, there was, if AlphaBrain didn't work, they would have published it. And that's what they did. So we, you know, we put ourselves on the line and then duplicated those results in both independent trials with statistical significance. So that's something that really very few companies outside of like drug companies testing drugs.

• 48:26Rich Roll?

  It's expensive.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  It's expensive. I mean, like all said and done, close to half a million dollars to get those, get those trials all the way through and, and, and, uh, and support that. And that's, but it's something that I think was important for us to do to show that, hey, you know, what we're saying is legit, you know, AlphaBrain, not only will you be able to feel it, but here it is, you know, tested against placebo and, you know, here's how it works.

• 48:52Rich Roll?

  I think the average consumer would be shocked to know that if they went to, you know, the store and bought a random selection of, you know, 12 or 15 supplements, protein powders, whatever, and sent them to a lab to have them tested and then compared what the actual ingredients are to the nutrition facts panel on the product, they would be amazed at how much it doesn't resemble what it's advertised to be.

• 49:19Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:19Rich Roll?

  And a lot of that has to do with these, these labs where the products are made, where they're making all different kinds of stuff. There's all kinds of contaminants that get into this stuff. And there's a lot of shysters ripping people off and they're telling, you know, all these people that have little brands, like, oh yeah, we're making your stuff. And if you're not paying attention, they dilute it and there's a lot of crooks out there. So. How did you figure out how to align with the right labs and make sure that you could ensure that kind of, you know?

• 49:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, you gotta, I mean, we, we audit every facility that we go to, first of all, like boots on the ground audits with our, with our regulatory compliance team. We go through the assays and the testing from the raw ingredient suppliers to the, encapsulators and mixers and we just follow every step and, and look at every ingredient, make sure that those ingredients have been tested. Then look at the final batch, make sure that's been tested and then, you know, just kind of watch every different way because, yeah, I mean, greed is a factor and, you know, when these companies are dealing with,

• 50:20Speaker 01

  you know, 15, 20% margins, a lot of times in these encapsulators and mixers, it's not huge margin business. They can carve out another 10% by diluting your product, you know, they might have the motivation to do that. I think what's changing now is that the internet is providing such easy access to information. It's really tightening up the game. Like I think what, you know, what you were describing was incredibly common 10 years ago, maybe even five years ago. But now with all of the review systems that are out there, all of the ways that information travels like lightning fast. I mean, look, think about how fast that, you know, United stock plummeted when they pulled that dude off a plane. Like back a long time ago, you could yank people off the plane all the fucking time, wouldn't matter, but people start, you know, if that starts to happen now,

• 51:06Speaker 01

  the world knows instantly. And I think that's the way that you really get, get an industry that's had formerly bad practices back in line.

• 51:15Rich Roll?

  Do you think that's enough? Or do you think that there's a, there's room for additional regulation?

• 51:22Rich Roll?

  Cause it is so unregulated.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  I really, I really like that the free market has the opportunity to do this because I don't necessarily believe that a central regulator, you know, regulation body is going to actually be any better, you know, they're still as corruptible as, as any. I mean, if you look at, you know, some of the regulatory bodies, like look at the scheduling of marijuana, you know, for example, like that's, something severely wrong with that, with the scheduling of marijuana. You know, high incidence of addiction and harm, no possibility of medical treatment. Well, that's clearly false, but yet nonetheless, the regulatory bodies are still scheduling it as a schedule one drug.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Like, things exist like that, that are clearly, um, clearly that the people with the largest pockets have been funding and driving these regulators towards different ends. But when you decentralize that regulation and allow the free market, you know, to say everything and kind of accreditate different organizations based on their own reputation, I think you can get actually probably a little bit closer to the truth. But, you know, one area I think that the regulations are solid is, you know, safety as far as like testing and ensuring that the products are safe for consumption. I think that's one thing that, um, that the government does do a really good job of. I mean, every facility they went to

• 52:46Speaker 01

  that we've been to has FDA GMP audits regularly where they're going through and making sure that everything possible is being done to make sure that the products aren't, you know, harmful and contaminated. And if you actually look at the amount of, you know, serious adverse effects for supplements compared to drugs, I mean, it's a wild discrepancy. I mean pharmaceuticals are killing people, hurting people left and right. And supplements, you hear about a few random cases that have happened with something like a fedra or like a tainted batch of tryptophan that came from Japan. But for the most part, you know, it's really actually not harming people. Now, whether it's actually doing any good.

• 53:25Rich Roll?

  Right, that's the other question. Harm and actually just getting what you think you're paying for, right? And I think that's where they like, it can be neutral. It's just not what you think you're getting.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the government takes care of that part. And then the, you know, kind of the plaintiff's attorneys are really cleaning up the other aspect. You know, like, um, different supplements claiming there was a big supplement slips my mind right now. But a big supplement, a brain supplement that just, um, that just got busted and sued for like a hundred million dollars or something like that because they were putting out information targeted towards seniors, saying that this supplement was going to improve memory long term. And they had some. Chicken shit bullshit study and a graph that was way disproportionate. And you know, the free market again came and sued them and then just basically crushed that company. So the free market forces are stronger, I think, than people realize.

• 54:20Speaker 01

  Like at any point that you step out of line, you know, there's an attorney or you know, the FDA or the FTC that's ready to whack you back in the line. But first, before that happens, it's the public outcry, which is the first line of defense. You know, what social media is saying, what everybody else is saying. So while in some regards, like if tighter standards were to be put in place, it would probably benefit on it. I am reticent to give centralized power over anything, just being that I've seen it misused too many times. You know, it's just, maybe it's just the libertarian in me as well.

• 54:57Rich Roll?

  No, I get that. And, and this is something, I did a podcast yesterday with John Mackey, you know, who's essentially a libertarian in certain respects, at least with respect to business. He has some very interesting ideas about capitalism, conscious capitalism. And, you know, he's mired in this crazy shareholder war right now. There's a, there's a couple of huge hedge funds that have taken big positions in Whole Foods at the moment and are pushing for a sale. And, you know, he's trying to toe the line and prevent that from happening. So he's under fire in a big way, but we had a really interesting conversation about free market forces. And, you know, this idea of conscious capitalism, which is, you know, basically a term that he coined and wrote a book about.

• 55:40Rich Roll?

  And as somebody like yourself, who is, you know, interested in consciousness and running, you know, an effective capitalist company in a free market society, how do you think about injecting consciousness into your brand and what you do?

• 55:57Speaker 01

  Yeah. To me, it all goes back to the law of reciprocity, right? I think it's something innately we feel, you know, that we want to give equal to what we receive. You know, and that's something that's innate inside all of us. And I think falling back on the law of reciprocity in all of our actions, I think, is the key to conscious capitalism. One of the key principles of consciousness, you know, like if you're in the Peruvian jungle and you're, you know, learning the rules, then everything is, everything is abiding by the law of reciprocity. I mean, they are animists, so they believe everything has a spirit. So if you want the flame to light your mapacho, which is like a sacred tobacco cigarette cigar, you know, you ask the flame, you know, may I have your flame to light this?

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Even though you won't get a response, it's about this, this conscious exchange. You don't take anything. If you wanna eat an animal, you ask the animal. If you wanna harvest a plant, you ask the plant. You know, it's that they're very aware of the, of the law of reciprocity. And I think applying that to business is the most conscious way that you can do anything capitalistic. So that's ensuring that anytime someone buys your product, that they're receiving goods and services equal to what they've paid. And, and our goal is to not only make it equal, but greater. So that they have, so that we're running a positive balance in the bank of reciprocity. So that in every single exchange that we do, we're running a positive balance. And so that means adjusting some of the different practices.

• 57:23Speaker 01

  Like the usual money back guarantee practice, for example, is you buy something and then if you wanna return it, you gotta go through this whole rigmarole. You gotta get the product, you know, box it back up, use your, print out your original label, fill out a survey, send it to this specific thing, and then a month later, you get your refund. And that's a game, cause most, cause they realize that most people they're just not aren't gonna fucking do it. So we wanted to change that. And so we said, all right, how do we make it not a game? Well, if they get it and they don't like it, they just let us know and we give them their money back, period. And then some people are like, well, aren't people gonna take advantage of that? Some people will, but the law of reciprocity holds in, in the inverse as well. You know, when you're willing to give somebody that much leeway and that much freedom,

• 58:05Speaker 01

  you know, generally it's gonna be a select, only a select few that are gonna take advantage. So we found that despite that, which is as far as I know, the most lenient return policy in the entire industry, we have one of the lowest return rates on our products. And yes, we have good products, but I also think it's the fact that people can sense that we're not trying to game them. Mm hmm. You know?

• 58:25Rich Roll?

  I think that engenders trust in your customer base too.

• 58:28Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 58:28Rich Roll?

  And that level of loyalty is going to prevent that from turning into like a waterfall of people just trying to rip you off, you know, and I think it speaks to transparency, you know, and that's something that came up, I think, when you had that breach, right?

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I had a security breach.

• 58:43Rich Roll?

  You had like a cyber hacker site and you were very upfront about letting everyone know before any customer had alerted you to that.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:50Rich Roll?

  So, you know, perhaps a different company would have just tried to bury it and not say anything. And I think it reminds me of something that came up in your conversation with Gary Vee the other day, when you were talking about the benefits of, like, if you take a long-term view in business, the benefits of leaving a little bit on the table in a negotiation and having the long view.

• 59:08Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 59:09Rich Roll?

  And understanding that, you know, business doesn't have to be a zero-sum game, right? We can all benefit and rise together and it's not about having to necessarily gouge the other person. That's not necessarily the win in the long run.

• 59:23Speaker 01

  No. I think people underestimate what someone's goodwill and passionate intent can create mutually. You know, if you cut something too close to the bone and you end up with a partner who's half resenting you, half obligated to you, and just a little shitty about it, you know, that partner's not going to be a good partner.

• 59:40Rich Roll?

  No.

• 59:40Speaker 01

  But if you leave them with, and you're the point, and I think Gary mentioned this too, he's like, "I'd like to leave more on the bone because it's leverage." And what he's talking about is, you leave more on the table, you run, you let them have the positive balance and the bank of reciprocity. They're going to want to give you more, you know, in return. And I think that's the, that's the game that makes things grow. And then they give you more and all of a sudden you're running that, you're running that balance, you're running a negative balance, like, "All right, I gotta give you more." And you start to build this kind of abundance, you know, escalation rather than this, "Man, fuck that guy," you know, which is the other idea of how it works. And it works not only for customers, but employees too. Like, we have, you know, that same kind of mentality with how we treat our employees here.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  You know, give them as many opportunities to succeed personally and professionally as possible, like, you know, co-pays on food and massage and free gym and, you know, we don't, unlimited vacation times as long as it's approved. By their team and all of the things that we can do, you know, have Wim Hof out here and take them through breath classes.

• 1:00:41Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:00:41Speaker 01

  And whatever we can do to boost their morale and passion, we realize that they're gonna give that back. Like, I never have to beg people to work overtime when we have a sale. You know, people are just lined up when we're doing a five in the morning, you know, warehouse warehouse sale to clear out some old inventory. You know, we got volunteers already signed up. Hey, does anybody want to do this? Sure. The whole thing lights up.

• 1:01:05Rich Roll?

  Cause they know you have their back.

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  Right, exactly. And vice versa. You know, so you create this system that really is self reinforcing.

• 1:01:14Rich Roll?

  I think the the the most brilliant thing that you did in launching this company to success was understanding something that confuses me that most people don't understand, which is the incredible underpriced ROI of podcast advertising.

• 1:01:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:34Rich Roll?

  So you understood, you know, early that this was a, this was a, an opportunity that was underexploited in the marketplace. And by partnering with Joe, I mean, you were able to blow this whole thing up in a way that had never been done before. And now, you know, certain companies are kind of realizing this and jumping into it, but really not that many. There still aren't that many. And when I look at the growth curve of Onnit, it all tracks back to podcast advertising.

• 1:02:01Speaker 01

  No doubt, no doubt. We wouldn't be who we are if it wasn't for podcast advertising and for Joe. You know, I mean, that's the single greatest move that I did was, you know, bringing him on as a partner in this company, you know? And that was that I owe a lot of credit to that because that got the momentum rolling. You know, that got the word out. And then from there, it's just been a matter of accelerating. Like, the hardest thing to do if you're out in the wild is to start the fire.

• 1:02:27Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  It's not to feed it more fuel, you know, and and Joe and a few other podcasts at that time, but largely Joe started the fire. And then at that point, we're just out there, you know, finding dead wood and drift wood and throwing it on the, throwing it on the fire and making the blaze bigger.

• 1:02:44Rich Roll?

  How did that come together?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Well, I asked Joe, um, me and Joe were friends at that time and I asked Joe, I said, Joe, what would be the product that you would like the most? And he said, well, I'd like a really good, you know, plant-based nootropic, like a natural nootropic that really worked. Um, cause there were some other things around at the time, like the modafinils and then different kind of chemicals, synthetic products, but nothing that was a supplement that you could actually feel. So I was like, all right, I'm going to do my best to make the very best plant-based nootropic that's ever been created. Then went to, you know, my stepmom, some other, um, some other doctors, psychiatrists, athletes, and put together this batch. And the first batch of AlphaBrain was so fucking strong. It was like, cause one of the mechanisms of action is it boosts

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  acetylcholine. So it has a cholinergic reaction. And a cholinergic reaction at the upper level feels a bit like a nicotinic reaction. So what it would feel like if you, you know, had a bunch of nicotine. So if anybody smoked too much of a cigar, um, you know, tried to dip for the first time and absorbed too much nicotine, you get that kind of nauseous feeling that at the tail end of the buzz. And this formula was so strong, so cholinergic that, um, it was, it was borderline, you know, too much for most people, but Joe just loved it. He was like, this is the best. I love this thing. And, um, but regardless, we knew we had something. We knew that if we, you know, we had a driver to the formula, we had some things in there to balance it out, make it more robust, target some different systems in the brain. Um, but we had something

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  that worked. And then it was just about finding the sweet spot of dosage and, and how to, uh, how to make it work. And, um, at that point, you know, we still hadn't even really talked about business, but basically I designed AlphaBrain for Joe, you know, and then, so we knew that something was going to happen. And then sales started rolling in. And at that point, we just kind of went back and forth a few times about what we felt like was fair. And, uh, Just settled on, uh, settled on a number.

• 1:04:45Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  And it was, it was cool at that point because I really got to understand what it would be like with Joe as a partner. Cause I remember when, uh, and I've told this story before, but we were negotiating his equity position. And, you know, I was in marketing and investment banking and, you know, sometimes use some negotiation tactics to kind of help, you know, just help your case and help your position. And so I said something like, yeah, and I was going to carve this piece out and leave that for me so I can pass that on to my kids. And it wasn't untrue. I do plan on passing on some of this company to my kids. It wasn't a lie.

• 1:05:20Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  But it wasn't like the most honest representation of what I was really going to use that equity for. So, so Joe goes, hey, man, I don't give a fuck about your imaginary kids. I go, yeah, you're right. And at that point it was like, all right, we're going to do this, but we're going to communicate at a hundred. We're not going to shade anything. We're not going to overspin the cue ball. We're not going to, you know, play any kind of posturing. We're just going to say it exactly like it is like this is how I feel. How do you feel about that? And we've always fallen back to that, just communication at a hundred. And it's been a hundred percent the best business partner, maybe the best partner, honestly, I've ever had. And just that you never have to think if something goes wrong, you know, and it's, and I have to tell Joe,

• 1:06:04Speaker 01

  I don't think about how I'm going to position it. I don't think about, oh man, how am I going to break the news to Joe? There's no how. It's just, okay, when can I get him on the phone? And then I just say it like it is. And if something good happens, just say it like it is. You know, it's so, it's a really great way to have communication and something that I've strived for, not only in business, but in my personal life. Cause when you don't have to think about how to PR your way and market your way and, and shade and, and posture, you can just relax and just talk to people.

• 1:06:35Rich Roll?

  The ability to have that juggernaut of a podcast at your disposal, you know, is just, you can't.

• 1:06:43Rich Roll?

  Overestimate the impact of that on your business. It's just incredible. And it's always, you know, and you have a podcast, right?

• 1:06:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:06:51Rich Roll?

  And I've been doing this for four years. And you look at the advertisers and it's the same people, you know? And I have great spots, you know, Casper and Harry's and MeUndies. And you know, there's, there's cool companies that are, that are, you know, forward thinking that have the similar idea that you, that you had. But it just amazes me that there aren't more because it's underpriced. You know, basically it's an opportunity for a company to tap into a demographic of people who are already inclined to want to buy their product and speak to them directly with a human voice. And the conversion rates are super high and yet it's not, it's not, it's not that expensive and the marketplace is still looking at those more traditional modes

• 1:07:34Rich Roll?

  that aren't converting at nearly the rate that podcast advertising. So I'm always like, why aren't more people doing this?

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, people, people's bullshit detectors are really strong these days. And I think podcasts allow people to get to know the host. And then they can tell when the host is actually talking genuinely about the products that they're, they're advertising, you know, like they can tell the difference between that and the, and the here, I'm just reading this, this ad. And I think that's another move that we've made is we don't give people, you know, reads unless they really ask for one. We just basically send them a box of stuff and say, look, talk about whatever you want to talk about, anything that you use, anything that you like, just, you know, explain it honestly and that's the, going to be the best read anyways. That's going to be the best advertisement that we can do. And I think that's what's been effective and it's been interesting too, because we

• 1:08:24Speaker 01

  have some superstar celebrities that take our products and talk about it, like Ludacris, for example, you know, movie star, platinum rapper, 15 million Instagram fans or whatever. He can make a post about Onnit and, you know, say Onnit's going to help him live to be 120 best supplements he's ever had, blah, blah, blah. He said that before and we'll rush to our stat board and say, wow, what's going to happen now?

• 1:08:47Rich Roll?

  The traffic.

• 1:08:48Speaker 01

  And it's just crickets. Crickets, right? But some small podcaster like Sean Stevenson, for example, or Lewis Howes, or not that they're that small, they're actually growing pretty big, but some smaller podcaster will mention something and then will immediately see the spike. And it's because people have rapport with that individual. They feel like they know them. They feel like they've been sitting in a room as the silent friend. And it's a recommendation from a friend rather than an advertisement.

• 1:09:15Rich Roll?

  Why do you think that more companies aren't understanding this, though?

• 1:09:19Speaker 01

  I think the challenge is that it's hard to track ROI. And I think some of the big-

• 1:09:24Rich Roll?

  Not if you have those vanity URLs and everything and the promo codes. It would seem to me that it would be really easy to track all that.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think, um, I, that's, that's the only thing that I can think of. It's, I mean, there's a lot, there's some leakage when it comes to that, you know, people get those codes out and they end up on deal websites. But you're right. I mean, you can track it. Um, I don't know why. Maybe it's not big enough?

• 1:09:47Rich Roll?

  I think, because I think the average business per, I think podcasting is still a foreign idea to most people, even though it's growing, you know, at a, at a pretty explosive rate right now. It's definitely having a moment. Um, you know, I still, I don't know what it's like for you. Maybe it's different for you, but still, you know, I run into people who are like, how do I get a podcast? And I have to like, give me your iPhone. I'm like, they don't even know that they have that purple app that's built in. They, they've, they've never clicked it. You know what I mean? And it's like literally two clicks away from being able to open up a universe of knowledge to you. And they've just like, I don't know how to do that.

• 1:10:21Speaker 01

  What's interesting is if you look at the demographics too, it's podcasts are being consumed predominantly by men, which is interesting as well. You know, there's not a lot of female podcast hosts. You know, you look at the top 100 and see how many women that you see up there. Not that many. And, um, and looking at the demographics of what's coming from that. And so there's still massive parts of the market that just haven't really adopted. And is that, is that chicken or the egg? Is it, there aren't enough hosts? So there aren't enough women or there aren't enough, you know, there's something else going on. I think I've read different theories about that. But yeah, it's still something that's on the come up. But I think nonetheless, it's- It's an inevitable part of human existence. I think the idea that you're going to be

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  listening to something at random, that's just gone.

• 1:11:07Rich Roll?

  Makes no sense. I mean, I haven't listened to the radio in like six years. And whenever I get into a cab or I'm in somebody's car and they turn the radio on, I'm like, what? Like, why are you, why aren't you making a conscious choice about what you're allowing into your consciousness? You're just, you're letting somebody else decide that for you? Like, you're literally asleep at the wheel. You know, I don't get it. You know, it's so easy. And yet, there is this weird barrier that somehow we've got to like get over so that, you know, a broader demographic, demographic of people can be exposed to this.

• 1:11:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I think automatic integration into cars and into

• 1:11:43Rich Roll?

  That's happening.

• 1:11:43Speaker 01

  That's happening. And it'll, I mean, it's spreading. You look at the top, like Rogan's podcast is a good example. I mean, his numbers month after month are just going up.

• 1:11:52Rich Roll?

  It's crazy how much it's, it's still continuing to grow.

• 1:11:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:12:03Rich Roll?

  So one, one question I had for you is you're, you're doing video on your podcast now, right? And what is the impact of that? Like, have you been doing that all along? Cause I'm, I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about adding that in and I'm just interested in what, how that's worked for you.

• 1:12:17Speaker 01

  The move with the video is to take short clips that then you can repurpose to all your social media. So like short transcribed clips, get, if you put them on Facebook, you put them on Instagram, they get a ton of impressions. So whereas a podcast we do will get a hundred thousand downloads, you know, with all of the impressions that we generate, you know, on social media from that podcast, which is like a short 30 second highlight reel or a minute long, whatever. And we can get impressions to a million, you know, and then that starts to fuel the growth and starts to let people know which ones they want to listen to. And just put out positive ideas. I mean, a big part of podcasting is, yes, it's a business, but it's also a chance to, you know, make an impact, to share a perspective

• 1:13:02Speaker 01

  that could be beneficial. So I think that's the best, you, the best reason for video is For making the highlight reel because it's it's still a little weird to watch people talking.

• 1:13:13Rich Roll?

  That's why it always amazes me that Joe has such a big audience on YouTube for these three hour. I'm like, who is sitting and watching a YouTube video for that long? Apparently a lot of people like, I can't imagine doing that. But I think just having the video component to it puts a face to the voice. You know, I mean, the unique thing about podcasting is it's the one form of media that you can enjoy while you're doing something else. But what happens when self-driving cars come in and then it's just, it's all about video. Right? Like you can't ignore the fact that video still has to be a component piece of this. Yeah. If you want to continue to grow.

• 1:13:51Speaker 01

  It's interesting you say that because you know, it's top secret. So I'll be banished from our tech team if I, if I release, but we're, we're trying to think about that. We're trying to figure out how we can, uh, how we can make podcasts, something that are consumable in a more media rich way. And, uh, so I think that's, it's a good line of thinking. Like it's a good place to start saying like, all right, how do we make this interesting for someone who really wants more immersion into the content?

• 1:14:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:17Speaker 01

  And so that's a problem that we're trying to get ahead of and solve because I think you're right.

• 1:14:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Well, I've just, I've watched how Lewis has been able to grow his show and, and you know, and he started off with video and it, it wasn't really doing anything. And now it's been, you know, really, I think impactful in the growth of his show. And so it's undeniable that, you know, I'm starting to like, have to look at that.

• 1:14:37Speaker 01

  Dancing with Ellen doesn't hurt either.

• 1:14:39Rich Roll?

  No, that, yeah, I know. Unbelievable, right?

• 1:14:42Speaker 01

  Unbelievable. And that's the beauty of podcasts too, though, because that came out of a relationship he developed with Scooter Braun, which was developed because he had a great conversation on a podcast. Like the, the awesome thing about a podcast as a podcaster is it allows you to have fucking incredible conversations with people that normally you wouldn't have for this long.

• 1:15:02Rich Roll?

  No, I can come to Austin and find a way to get in touch with you and we can sit down. I mean, it's like, it's the greatest scam in the world. You know what I mean? Like, I'm going to go rob this guy of a couple of hours of time and make him show me his gym and like, in the middle of a workday, you know, and then get to share that experience. It's been, I mean, it's been incredible for me. Like people are, people say, who are your mentors? I'm like, every single guest I've had on this podcast, I've learned something from.

• 1:15:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's a beautiful way to put it because it's absolutely true.

• 1:15:29Rich Roll?

  So where are you taking this whole thing?

• 1:15:33Speaker 01

  Well, I think for me, it all comes down to the mission. And you know, that became clear as I continued on this spiritual path. And I started to understand what I thought were the deepest principles of consciousness. Something I call the platinum rule, which is treat others well because they're you living a different life, not treat them as if you treat yourself, but treat them because they I've never heard it said that way. Where does that come from? It's really maybe what the golden rule was ultimately getting at. But, but people say like, treat others as they would have, as you would have them treat yourself. You know, so it's this kind of like quid pro quo, you know, reciprocity system.

• 1:16:15Speaker 01

  Instead of saying, no, no, no, treat them that way because they are you. They are you living a different life. They're the same, you know? So it's separating that, it's collapsing that duality into this kind of concept of unicity that we're all the same, just living different lives. We're all, as I said before, like different facets of the infinite diamond. And so with that kind of consciousness, understanding, then the name of the game is to just ease the suffering of the collective and improve the overall mood of, of the one. You know, the overall experience of that one collective consciousness. And so that's really the ultimate, the ultimate game.

• 1:16:57Speaker 01

  So how do you do that? Well, you gotta help the body out because when the animal is sick and the animal is tired and the animal has no energy, you know, then it's going to become a lot more inwardly focused. Their emotions are going to become more protective. I mean, try to go up and pet the sick tiger, you know, good luck with that. But a well-fed, happy tiger, you know, you can probably get away with playing around and tussling with For a minute. For a minute, right? But humans are like that too. And when we're in a great positive state, we're more likely to be giving and loving and kind. And when we're sick and tired and traumatized and wounded, that's when we get, you know, exhibit a lot of these other behaviors. So kind of like Maslow's pyramid of needs. We gotta take care of the body and that's a lot of what Onnit is about. And then from there, we gotta take care of the emotional body and find the medicines

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  and paths that can treat trauma. And that's, I just got back from the psychedelic science conference and amazing results coming out of the psilocybin and MDMA studies for PTSD and depression. So. Treating the emotional body and then finding reliable ways to not make spirituality something that's kept for the Brahmin priest class, but something that can be decentralized and provided for everybody, you know, sharing the tools that everybody can find some sense of connection to their consciousness and to, you know, these universal metaphysical principles. And, and that's kind of the, the path, you know, so from the body to the emotions in the mind to then the consciousness and optimizing all together so that we just have a better

• 1:18:26Speaker 01

  fucking time, so that we play this game, you know, with smiles instead of playing this game, you know, as, as if it's suffering, because it doesn't have to be suffering. And it's going to have some challenges, it's going to have some pain, it's going to have some struggle, but we wouldn't want to design a game any other way. You know, like, who wants the video game that comes out of the box with no monsters to slay, you know, no challenges, no times that you die, you know, like, you want, we want the challenges.

• 1:18:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you posted on, you posted something on Instagram about that.

• 1:18:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, totally.

• 1:18:54Rich Roll?

  You can't, yeah, it's like, we, we are in a culture in which we have prioritized comfort, ease and luxury. And the sort of theme that, that resides beneath that is that we should avoid all suffering and avoid all obstacles so that we can, you know, luxuriate in our robes in front of our giant, you know, flat screen TV. And the truth is, is that you become alive when you're forced to, you know, confront that obstacle and, and communicate with yourself and discover what you're really about. And that's, that's where you, you know, the, the lotus flower begins to bloom.

• 1:19:31Speaker 01

  Indeed.

• 1:19:32Rich Roll?

  And that's a beautiful, you know, it's a beautiful mission, but I think, you know, the average dude out there can understand, you know, the, the nutritional supplements, you can understand, you know, the gym, getting into the gym and the jujitsu and all this kind of stuff that you do. But I think for a lot of people, the light switch goes off when you start talking about spirituality, right? Maybe not with your crowd now, because you've surrounded yourself with people that are of like mind, but I think the average person out there, you know, guy, I think. Kind of hunkers down or kind of cuts himself off when or gets uncomfortable when you start talking about these ideas. And I think that's changing, but like, how do

• 1:20:13Rich Roll?

  you think about that and and sort of contemplate how you communicate these ideas that are of the more esoteric?

• 1:20:21Speaker 01

  The the key way to communicate is to show them, you know, that I'm I'm like them. Like, I, I think it's incredibly important. Like, when I'm dealing, because I've, you know, I'm friends with a lot of fighters, a lot of hockey players and football players and athletes and

• 1:20:36Rich Roll?

  Here comes a warrior poet.

• 1:20:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I think the first thing is, is that they can see enough of themselves in me, you know, like, we can go into the gym, we can crush a workout, we can go to the bar, we can drink some beers and be

• 1:20:47Rich Roll?

  I can relate to this guy.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  And they're like, and they feel like, oh, man, this is, he's one of me, right? And then, at the same time, I have this other side, which I'm exemplifying certain traits that sound interesting. I'm talking about experiences that sound interesting. So it's, it becomes something, it's like, well, maybe this isn't for some other type of person. Maybe this is for me, because if Aubrey, you know, is like me, but also likes this, maybe I'll like it, too. And I think that's been, you know, something that I've noticed. And I think that's something that Joe does great as well. Joe is as alpha as any man

• 1:21:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:21:17Speaker 01

  ever was. I mean, you can YouTube him knocking someone out with a spinning heel kick and walking out without even a smirk, like a, like a straight, you know, assassin. And then, you know, Jiu Jitsu black belt, you know, comedian, every aspect of him that's very young. And then he'll be talking about yoga and psychedelics and all of these things. And so I think that's what has been missing. It's what's been missing is being able to relate to somebody and then say, hey, look, man, I get it. I get your game and I love that game. That's awesome. But here's this other game that's also awesome. And at that point, then people start to open up and then there's, then their guard starts to go down. So as soon as you can connect with people that way, then and show them that the other

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  way has tangible benefit and value, then people are all about it.

• 1:22:05Rich Roll?

  Where do you recommend people start? Like, if you, if you're like, all right, man, like, these are whole, these, these ideas are brand new to me, man, you know, like, Give me a book or where should I begin this journey for myself?

• 1:22:17Speaker 01

  Well, everybody says to start with meditation, but that's kind of like giving somebody a destination without a map. It's like meditate. Well, what the hell is that? You know, I'm going to just sit and be quiet and let my mind wander around, try not to think about sex or whatever normal other stress that you have. So I think you gotta feel what the end goal of that is like first. You gotta taste what your target is for meditation. So I think the best ways to do that are either yoga or a float tank. Like those two, those to me kind of get you in that path because yoga, after breathing intentionally and stretching and kind of going through all of those movements, you have the shavasana at the end and that's reliably able to get you into a what, you know, a classic meditative state.

• 1:23:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's what, that's what people don't get about yoga. And I've said this before on the podcast, but all of the postures, it's not about the postures. The postures are a process or a journey to get you into a mindset where you can receive when you finally get to shavasana. It's all building towards that. And, you know, if you go to a typical yoga class, when you get to the shavasana, half the class gets up and leaves. They're like, I did the class, like, I don't need that part at the end. And I'm like, the end is the, that's the thing. That's why you're there.

• 1:23:32Speaker 01

  A hundred percent, a hundred percent.

• 1:23:34Rich Roll?

  But how do you distinguish like float tank from meditation?

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Well, float tank is just another way that more reliably gets you there. You know, when all of that default node mode network kind of perceptive quality doesn't need, you know, the brain doesn't need to use that anymore because you can't hear, you can't see, you can't smell, you can't taste, you can't touch. All of these things that we're constantly sensing for danger, trying to read our environment, those are no longer necessary. You know, more reliably feels like that part of the brain powers down. And, you know, your brainwave frequency drops from that kind of scattered beta, hey, what's going on, what's going on, what's going on? To that more centered alpha and perhaps even into theta, that almost somewhere in between waking and dreaming state, which is the goal of meditation.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  And it's just, it's like a tool to turbo your way to that point and at least feel what that feels like. So then, you know, maybe you don't want to go float, you know, multiple times a week to get there. That costs a lot of money and a lot of time, but at least if you've tasted that and you know what that's like, then you can start doing. Vipassana meditation, or open focus, or transcendental, or whatever other means you get there and say, alright, can I get back to that state that I tasted in the float tank, or get back to that state that I tasted with yoga, you know, and, and get there. Another great one, too, is ecstatic dance, which is something that I've been practicing, which is basically removing your mind as, as the judge of your movement. So there's just a

• 1:25:01Speaker 01

  direct connection between sound and your body, and just allowing your mind to get out of the way. And that will put you in, you know, it's one of the classic kind of trance states that multiple cultures have developed from the Lakota Sundance, to the Whirling Dervishes, to all of these different, you know, cultures have used dance to get there. And that's another one that you can do.

• 1:25:20Rich Roll?

  That'll, that'll really allow you to confront your ego.

• 1:25:25Speaker 01

  Oh, totally.

• 1:25:26Rich Roll?

  In a huge way, because you're just like, how am I looking? I don't want to look like an idiot, you know, like that, I mean, that interplay that goes on.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:25:33Rich Roll?

  You know, is, I mean, especially for guys, I think, you know, it's harder to kind of let go and allow yourself to just, you know, move your body in that kind of way.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, you start moving your hips one way, and some voice in your head goes, now you're for sure gay. You know, like, you have all these judgments about your sexuality, and your masculinity, and all of these things that, as soon as you let that out of the way, and you just start moving, you know, you can enter those kind of classic meditative flow states, you know, what the psychologists would call superfluidity, where it's just body and, you know, input, and then, and then you're moving. So in, in that same way, you know, I think flow state is another great way to get out of, you know, get out of your head, so to speak. And that's, you can find that in sports. And I think it's one of the reasons why people enjoy sports so much. I think a great overview of this whole concept is in that latest book by Jamie Wheal and Steven Kotler called Stealing Fire, talks

• 1:26:25Speaker 01

  about extasis, you know, these altered states of consciousness, and how. You know, it's just a primary evolutionary drive to find that. And once you find that, and then start intentionally cultivating that, that's when you can start making real advances.

• 1:26:39Rich Roll?

  I think a lot of people want to know where that's going to go before they will take that first step.

• 1:26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:45Rich Roll?

  They want to have it all worked out and understood in their mind logically. They want to be able to put it in that box. Where does that square peg go? And it doesn't work that way.

• 1:26:54Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:26:54Rich Roll?

  You know, you got to have the courage and the faith to, you know, to engage in the attempt and, and be comfortable with the unknowing. And I think that's where you allow the space for some of that magic to occur.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  Yeah. And not everything's going to be a hit, you know, like you're going to, you're going to take some false steps. Like I tried this, uh, what was supposed to be this great medicine called Cambo, which is basically this poison that they extract from a frog and they burn your arm and they rub it on you and you get horribly violently ill. Well, I got horribly violently ill, my throat closed.

• 1:27:26Rich Roll?

  What was supposed to happen?

• 1:27:27Speaker 01

  I was supposed to have this heightened clarity and this, it was supposed to be incredible. It's deep cleanse. No, I just almost died and I felt sick for two months, you know, like it's not, not everything that, that I've tried has been a success. I've tried different forms of like Reiki healing where people are like moving energy and bashing chimes. And it was like, nothing happened. I've tried a variety of different things, but you start to find the things that, that work and then.

• 1:27:53Rich Roll?

  But you gotta be open. You gotta be open to, to the try.

• 1:27:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. You gotta be willing to, to swing a few times and, and miss and have a few strikeouts. Same, same in that as in business, you know, if you're terrified of screwing up, you're not going to get really far. I mean, I fuck up constantly. I'm amazed at how many mistakes that I make, but by just acknowledging it and being like, all right, well, what can I learn from this? You know, then that allows you to move forward.

• 1:28:17Rich Roll?

  So let's walk through a day in the life, since you're writing about it right now.

• 1:28:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:22Rich Roll?

  You know, it's interesting, like it's, it's, it's, it's popular to talk about morning routines. What's your morning routine? The idea is if you adopt, you know, so and so's morning routine, that you will become that person somehow magically. And there's so many different sort of techniques for beginning your day, all of which are good. But I think it also can be overwhelming. Like there's 20 things that I'm supposed to do before I start my day in order to like calibrate myself properly.

• 1:28:48Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:28:50Speaker 01

  Well, yeah, I mean, I'm right in that right now. So, and I'm trying to make it something that's accessible. So I think the first thing in the morning that I focus on is hydration, light, and movement. So that's what really gets me going. So for me, hydration, I like having a little apple cider vinegar, a little sea salt, a little bit of lemon, and about sixteen ounces of warm water. So get myself rehydrated, you know, get the electrolytes back in, get the gastric juices flowing from the apple cider vinegar, set, you know, kind of a base of alkalinity. And then I have these things called the human charger, which are these little earbuds that shine light into your, into your ear holes. Oh, somebody sent me those. I haven't tried them yet, but they're sitting on my desk.

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  So what does that do for you? So, you know, really, the circadian rhythm is, is modulated by light. So, and typically, we're sleeping outside and, you know, we were a lot more aligned with natural circadian rhythm, going to sleep when it got dark and waking up at dawn. So this really starts to simulate the conditions of bright light coming in at dawn, but it's actually your photoreceptors that go through your ears and actually even touch the pineal gland, which controls the secretions of melatonin, etc. So I put those in. A lot of times I'll go out and get actual light too. We're in Texas, so there's a lot of sun. So either way, you don't have to have these fancy earbuds to do it. You can now get some actual light so that it triggers your body like, alright, you know, this is daytime. And then a little

• 1:30:18Speaker 01

  bit of movement, you know, sometimes it's a couple burpees, sometimes it's more yoga. And that's the first step. And, and then from there, from there, I like to do, you know, like a morning shower a lot of times, and that's Cold shower? Starts warm. I do all my, do all my normal things in the warm. Just because the amount of willpower it takes to crank a cold right off the drop is super gnarly, right? So I start warm and, you know, kind of get in there. And then I'll start the Wim Hof breathing. We got a chance to hang with Wim. So that's, you know, inhales, breathing in as much as you can, and then releasing without force. And you do that about thirty times until it starts to feel a little tingly. And then when I start to get close, that's

• 1:31:02Speaker 01

  when I flip the shower all the way to cold. And then get that and I'm all done with my washing and stuff. So at that point, it's just about watching my breath. And so the cold water flushes over me. I rotate around, make sure it hits all the cold spots. And then the breath will tell you, you know, how much more breathing you need to do. If you're still gasping, that means you're probably not properly oxygenated for the Wim Hof method. So I just kind of follow the breath and as soon as I can hold my breath comfortably, I do so. And then hold my breath for as long as I can, which starts to stimulate some of the adrenaline and things that come from a breath hold. And finish that off, close, close the shower down and then grab some breakfast after that.

• 1:31:43Rich Roll?

  Do you, do you get up super early? What is your sleep routine?

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  I don't. I'm definitely like a PM kind of brain. So I try to get up at eight o'clock. And sleep for me really changed dramatically when I was researching for this book and I read Nick Littlehill's book called Sleep.

• 1:31:59Rich Roll?

  I haven't read that one.

• 1:32:00Speaker 01

  And he works with a lot of like Manchester United, the British cycling team. And he talks about instead of sleep that you're trying to get in a single night, getting 35 cycles of sleep per week. And so really it takes the pressure off a single night's, you know, sleep performance, which can actually, it's one of the reasons why it's hard to sleep sometimes because you get anxious about how much sleep you had. So he kind of like takes all the pressure off that and is like, fine, if you get two cycles, that's, you know, generally about three hours a cycle is about 90 minute. If you get two cycles, no problem. Go and get controlled, what he calls controlled recovery periods throughout the day. So that would be a 30 or 90 minute nap. The preferable windows are like two to three, when then there's a natural lull in circadian rhythm or five to seven PM. And take a 30 minute

• 1:32:45Speaker 01

  or a 90 minute nap or binaural beats or float or something along those lines is like a controlled recovery period to pick up these, you know, pick up these additional cycles.

• 1:32:54Rich Roll?

  Interesting. I never heard that before.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so that to me has really changed the game because now. I think mentally you can get in this place where like, oh, man, I didn't sleep. And then the nocebo effect of not sleeping, you know, what you're telling your mind about what you need and what you didn't get starts to make things even worse. Whereas in this way, it's just, you know, again, looking at balance in that longer lens, similar to what we talked about. Now we got a week's goals. So, you know, we'll have different opportunities to pick it up, different ways that you can pick it up throughout the day.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  And that's helped a lot.

• 1:33:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's really helpful. That's interesting. Yeah, I'm going to check that book out.

• 1:33:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:29Rich Roll?

  Sleep has been something that I've struggled with. I mean, when I'm training super hard, it's not a problem, but less so, and especially as I get older, it gets really tricky, you know? And so I started, I sleep in a tent on my roof. We have a flat roof on my house and that has improved my sleep like tenfold. It's incredible.

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:33:50Rich Roll?

  I slept the whole winter in Los Angeles.

• 1:33:52Speaker 01

  That's awesome.

• 1:33:53Rich Roll?

  On the roof, yeah. And I wake, I feel amazing. But then when I go out of town and I have to sleep in a hotel, like it's not easy.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:34:00Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:00Speaker 01

  I started tracking my sleep too with the Oura Ring, Oura Ring?

• 1:34:04Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:34:04Speaker 01

  O U R A.

• 1:34:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  That's been pretty cool to see as well because now I'm seeing like what periods of the night I'm actually getting deep sleep and where I'm going and where I'm picking up my REM sleep and.

• 1:34:15Rich Roll?

  You can get neurotic on that stuff too, though.

• 1:34:17Speaker 01

  You can get to, and I think if I, I think if I didn't have Nick Littlehale's kind of model of the 35 hours per week, then it would be even more stressful. Cause if, you know, like even this morning, it pumped me out of reading. It was like 60% you didn't sleep very well. I'm like, if I, if that was really, if I was relying on the old model, like, oh, man, I'm screwed today. I got a podcast, I didn't get sleep. You look at my number, it's terrible. I was up at all these different times of the night. That would be worse, but knowing that, all right, this is, this is over a week's period. So this night was not so, not so ideal. I'll pick one up, you know, pick one up in the afternoon and I'll be fine.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  I think that that's made it a helpful tool rather than this kind of another way to externalize judgment because I think you're right. You can get kind of tweaked on that.

• 1:35:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, all the wearables. I think there's some debate about whether this is actually helping anybody.

• 1:35:10Speaker 01

  Yeah, same with like

• 1:35:11Rich Roll?

  If you commit a murder, they can track you down. Now, did you see that? The guy with the Fitbit?

• 1:35:15Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:35:16Rich Roll?

  Some guy, I didn't read the whole story, but I think this guy killed his wife and they were able to prove it based on his Fitbit data because his alibi didn't hold up based upon the data on his Fitbit.

• 1:35:27Speaker 01

  Unreal.

• 1:35:27Rich Roll?

  So.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  Unreal. Well, I'm not planning on

• 1:35:30Rich Roll?

  I know, but it's like

• 1:35:31Speaker 01

  But if you're

• 1:35:32Rich Roll?

  In this age where you're being tracked and everything's being watched in video.

• 1:35:35Speaker 01

  If you're having an affair.

• 1:35:36Rich Roll?

  That's next level.

• 1:35:37Speaker 01

  Like your wife gets your data and is like, oh, at midnight, you said you were asleep watching a movie.

• 1:35:42Rich Roll?

  Right. Your heart rate went up to 145 at exactly 11:30.

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's really funny. Well, it's the same with that, you know, kind of 23 and Me, you know, this genetic testing too, you know, you get these ideas in your head, even with food allergy testing, right? You've you learn some fact, like I've had people be like, oh, man, strawberries, I've always loved strawberries, but it says I'm deadly allergic to strawberries. And then from that point on, you know, whether they actually reacted that way or not before, once they have that data, their mind's going to convince them, oh, yeah, strawberries are bad. And then at that point, it's going to manifest that reality. And this isn't woo woo at all. This is just straight up placebo nocebo science. What the mind believes, you know, tends to manifest.

• 1:36:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I think that's the big reason why I haven't done the 23 and Me thing.

• 1:36:32Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:36:33Rich Roll?

  And I know there's benefits and reasons to do it. And I'm still open to it, but I think that's what's held me back. Like, I don't want my, I don't, I want, I don't want how I think about myself to be dictated by some predetermined roadmap, you know, in some certain way, I guess.

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:36:51Rich Roll?

  Even though it could help me.

• 1:36:52Speaker 01

  Cause it's not predetermined and that's the thing.

• 1:36:54Rich Roll?

  But when you plant that seed in your mind, and those are powerful. You know, like you said, once that seed is planted and it takes root, it starts to shape how you perceive your world.

• 1:37:02Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 1:37:03Rich Roll?

  So.

• 1:37:03Speaker 01

  Agreed, yeah, I mean, those, any kind, anything that generates fear is like a virus and that virus will infect you unless you can cure yourself of it, you know, and so whatever that is, whether it's a family history of some condition or the genetic testing or some other kind of thing that you've self-generated, you know.

• 1:37:21Rich Roll?

  Well, that's not even to, you know, not to mention the fact that we're impulsoed with fear messaging everywhere we look, every single day. Everyone's walking around terrified by design, you know, in this crazy insane culture that, you know, we've crafted around ourselves.

• 1:37:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, capitalism by desperation, motivate people out of fear, you know, has been certainly an element that I think a lot of people have capitalized on and it's unfortunate, you know, and it's rife in this whole medical community. I mean, people have so much fear and they look to the doctors as, you know, the only knowledge source for this and, and a lot of times the doctor's the right call, you know, if you've got a broken bone or you've got an infection of some sort and you need to get it done. Anything acute, absolutely, but then, you know, you look at the amount of training they've done on nutrition compared to someone like yourself or some of the top, you know, nutritionists, you know, and it's paltry, you know, like they, they're not experts in that, they don't know.

• 1:38:17Rich Roll?

  Not, they're, not only are they not experts, they're not, they don't even have rudimentary training, it wasn't part of medical school education, and yet we look to them as the know-alls and, and, you know, the answer people for everything. And we need to expand our awareness and our consciousness around these, these, you know, not just this profession, but how we take care of ourselves. And I think by that, I mean, we, we need to really shoulder more responsibility and take it upon ourselves to educate ourselves and to attempt and be open to these different kinds of protocols, like you tried Reiki, it didn't work for you, it works for somebody else, explore Ayurveda, learn how to balance your energy systems, the body knows how to heal itself if treated appropriately.

• 1:39:00Rich Roll?

  And I think, you know, you, you open yourself up for attack if you start talking about these things, but there's a lot of wisdom in this that is vacant and missing from our current medical establishment of diagnose and prescribe.

• 1:39:16Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Yeah, do your own research, be, you know, experiment yourself, you know, talk to people. And, and again, that's where I'm grateful for the decentralization of information, that so many things are available, podcasts are available, books are available, all of this knowledge is available. Some of it may be good, some of it may be, may be bogus, but all in all, we can take control of our information input and start to make intelligent decisions.

• 1:39:41Rich Roll?

  We gotta wrap this up in a minute, but before we do, you know, there's a lot of entrepreneurs, budding entrepreneurs that listen to this show, what kind of wisdom can you impart to somebody who's looking to start their own business, or who's looking to, you know, maybe not start their own business, but exercise a little bit more domain over their life, a little more control over how their time is spent.

• 1:40:08Speaker 01

  I think the biggest mistake that everybody makes is they start focusing on the external before they focus on the internal. You know, you get your internal world straight, you figure out where you're, where the boundaries of your ego are, how to control your emotions, where your fears lie, and start to get that straight and get that aligned, then everything externally that you're trying to do becomes way easier. So while we're always looking for what I, what I can start, what I can create, what I can build, like turn that gaze inward first, and it'll pay dividends outward. You know, I can directly track how much work I've done internally to how much success I've had externally, you know, and that's, that's the way. Otherwise, it's almost like you're building monuments on top of a shaky foundation, you

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  know, and if your foundation isn't secure, you'll destroy what you've created. I've watched so many entrepreneurs just rescue defeat from the jaws of victory. You know what I mean? Like, right at the finish line, all they have to do is just execute, but something is unreconciled in their core. And so they drive that train straight into the fucking graveyard.

• 1:41:10Rich Roll?

  Oh, not just business, relationships, anything across the board. I mean, thank you for that, because that's something that I, you know, talk about all the time, and I preach, and, and, you know, that's been my experience in my own life. People come to me, they, I wanna know, you know, help me Do an Iron Man. Help me do, help me start a bit, whatever it is, it doesn't matter. And it's like, why do you want to do that? Like, what is it, what is missing in your life that that seems important to you right now? And maybe there's a good reason for that, and maybe that is what they should be pursuing. But more often than not, they don't even know what is driving them. And without that self-understanding, that self-knowledge, that devotion to the inner work, to self-understanding, to personal growth, spiritual growth,

• 1:41:53Rich Roll?

  chances are, you're just reacting to your environment in an unconscious way, right? And if you want to be really self-directed in a positive way, that is setting you on a trajectory for, you know, unlocking your best self, your most authentic self, what you're here on earth to express, there's no end run around that journey and that process, because it all germinates from there.

• 1:42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you don't feel like you're worthy of the success you're trying to manifest, you'll destroy it, you know? And I think that's a big thing that people don't realize. Like, the law of reciprocity will hold for your own self-belief. Like, you not only, you really have to believe that you deserve everything good that's coming to you. You know, you have to love yourself, feel that you're worthy enough, have forgiven yourself, because otherwise you'll bring upon yourself punishment to justify how you feel about yourself. So doing that work, you know, is actually getting yourself in alignment with that universal reciprocity. So saying, "Man, I've done the work, I've done the hard labor, I really, you know, deserve to reap some of the abundance from this abundant universe." And then you'll start to create situations more favorable for that.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  And it's, again, it sounds like counterintuitive to, for an entrepreneur saying this, but time and time again, like, the people who don't feel like they deserve the success have something about themselves that they hate, have something that they don't like and are running from. You know, they bring the world crashing down upon them.

• 1:43:16Rich Roll?

  Forget about entrepreneurship, just like for life.

• 1:43:19Speaker 01

  For life.

• 1:43:19Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? Like, it applies to everything, so. Aubrey Marcus, that was awesome.

• 1:43:25Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:43:25Rich Roll?

  Thanks, man.

• 1:43:26Speaker 01

  So cool to have a conversation like this.

• 1:43:27Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I totally enjoyed it. Love to do it again. When your book comes out,

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Hell, yeah.

• 1:43:32Rich Roll?

  You can talk to me.

• 1:43:32Speaker 01

  Let's do it.

• 1:43:33Rich Roll?

  All right, we'll have you up to the house in Malibu. Feed you a vegan dinner.

• 1:43:38Speaker 01

  There's pretty good vegan restaurants out here in Austin, actually.

• 1:43:40Rich Roll?

  You know where I ate last night? I went to Arlo's, the food truck where they have the burgers. Like, it's like vegan junk food, but it's so delicious. I had like four cheeseburgers.

• 1:43:50Speaker 01

  Bolden Creek, Casa de Luz, Counterculture. Those are three really good spots.

• 1:43:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, those came up. Yeah, next time I'll have to hit them up.

• 1:43:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, no doubt.

• 1:43:58Rich Roll?

  All right, man. Thanks so much. So Aubrey Marcus, if you want to hook up with him, aubreymarcus.com, at Aubrey Marcus. It was Warrior Poet on Twitter, but now you switch it back to your name, right?

• 1:44:07Speaker 01

  Everything's to my name now.

• 1:44:08Rich Roll?

  Everything's to your name now, on it.com. Check out all that stuff, on it.com/aubrey for 10% off.

• 1:44:13Speaker 01

  Oh, shit, you dropped the code.

• 1:44:15Rich Roll?

  I know, right, man? So awesome, man. I appreciate it.

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, I appreciate you, man. Thank you.

• 1:44:19Rich Roll?

  Peace. Lance.

• 1:44:23Rich Roll?

  All right, we did it. That was kind of deep, you guys. Did you like it? I totally enjoyed talking to him. Hope you guys got a lot out of that. If you enjoyed it, give Aubrey a shout out on Twitter or Instagram, at Aubrey Marcus. Let him know what you thought about the show. And listen up. One out of every two Americans will develop some form of atherosclerosis. One out of every three is going to die of heart disease. That is just insane. And there is one diet, the only diet that has been absolutely proven to prevent and reverse heart disease. It's a whole food, plant-based diet. A diet that is your defense mechanism, your insurance policy against becoming one of these statistics, against falling prey to any number of chronic lifestyle illnesses. And a diet, I can honestly say, from my 10 years of personal experience,

• 1:45:08Rich Roll?

  will power you through whatever athletic conquest you set for yourself. My mission in life is to help you experience your version of what I have experienced, eating and living this way. Everything that I do, from books to podcasts to public speaking to my athletic endeavors, are all designed to advance this purpose. And intellectually, if you're listening to this, I think you get it, right? And yet, still so many struggle with how to implement these ideas, how to implement a plant-based, plant-centric lifestyle. What exactly do I eat? What if I don't like this or that? What if I'm allergic to nuts? Where can I buy all this stuff? How do I make it? And it's for all of these reasons that we created the Plant Power Meal Planner.

• 1:45:48Rich Roll?

  It's this incredibly powerful, robust, online, mobile-friendly resource tool that takes all the mystery and guesswork out of the whole affair at an incredibly affordable $1.90 per week. Let's face it, that is like loose change that you wouldn't even know if suddenly it dropped out of your pocket into the couch. And here's what you get. It's unbelievable. Thousands of plant-based recipes, unlimited meal plans and grocery lists, everything totally personalized and customized based on your very individuated, customized, personalized goals, food preferences, allergies, your time constraints, your budget. We have astounding customer support from a team of experts. We even have grocery delivery in 22 metropolitan

• 1:46:30Rich Roll?

  areas via Instacart. It's all integrated into the platform. We're getting amazing feedback. This is life-changing stuff, you guys. So I can't recommend it enough. I'm so proud of what we have created. And the feedback, like I said, that we're getting from people who are actually utilizing this, it's really heartwarming to see people just grab onto this, make use of it, and change their lives. So for more information and to sign up, go to meals.richroll.com or click on Meal Planner on the top menu at richroll.com. If you would like to support this show and my work, the best way to do that, to share it with your friends and on social media, leave a review on Apple Podcasts, on iTunes. Subscribe. Make sure you click that subscribe button. We also have a Patreon set up for people who want

• 1:47:12Rich Roll?

  to financially contribute to my work, and I really appreciate everybody who has done that. Also, I send out, I'm laughing when I say this, because I was gonna say, I send out a free weekly email called Roll Call every week that has five or six tools and tips and articles and documentaries, just helpful stuff that I've come across over the course of the week, and I send that out every Thursday. But I have not sent this out in the last three weeks. I guess you can call it a summer vacation. I've been so inundated with so many things that I just have not been able to carve out the time to send one of these out. I promise you, I'm gonna send it out this week. I'm gonna get back on it. Apologies if you've been searching in your inbox for this. But in any event, if you're new to the show, yes, I send out a free weekly email.

• 1:47:54Rich Roll?

  It is called Roll Call. It generally goes out on Thursday and it's five or six things that I, like I said, I've come across over the course of the week. A couple of articles I read, a documentary I watched, a new product that I'm enjoying, et cetera. No spam, no affiliate links. I'm not trying to make any money off this, just good stuff. So if that sounds interesting to you, you can sign up for it on my website, any of those places where you just enter your email address. And when you're on my site, we have some cool products up there. We have signed copies of all our books, Finding Ultra, The Plant Power Way, This Jesus Nuts. We have t-shirts, we've got tech tees, we've got sticker packs and like temporary tattoos and all kinds of cool stuff. As always, I want to thank today's sponsors. Casper, the number one online retailer of premium mattresses for a fraction of the price. Get $50 towards any mattress purchased

• 1:48:38Rich Roll?

  today by visiting casper.com/roll and using the promo code ROLL at checkout. And MeUndies, the world's most comfortable underwear. Visit meundies.com/roll to get free shipping in the US and Canada and 20% off your first pair. Also, to close this down, let's thank everybody who helped put on the show this week. Jason Camiolo for audio engineering and production and work on the show notes and all kinds of other stuff he does behind the scenes. Shawn Patterson for help on graphics. He's the guy who puts together those cool motion graphics that I share on Instagram, as well as all the cool assets that I share on social media and on the website. And theme music, as always, by Analemma. Thanks for the love, you guys. Like

• 1:49:19Rich Roll?

  I said, I'll be back here later this week with my podcast with Chris House and Caroline Burkle, talking about our training and preparation for the Otolo World Championships. And until then, love you guys. Thanks for listening. Appreciate you. Peace, plants, and namaste.