Dr. Melanie Joy on Going Beyond Carnism: Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs and Wear Cows

Why do we love dogs, but eat cows? Cooking up your golden retriever would be an unthinkable abomination. But barbecued beef? That's about as normal as it gets. It's just the way things are. But why? The logic and social mechanisms behind why we eat some animals and not others is a behavioral inconsistency unexamined to the point of absurdity — both psychologically complex and strange — very strange indeed. Many guests on this podcast have elaborated on why we shouldn't eat meat. This week I sit down with Melanie Joy, Ph. D, Ed. M to explain why we do eat meat. An idea she coined carnism, Dr. Joy's work centers around the psychology of eating meat, what is known as the “meat paradox” – our irrational, inconsistent and species specific attitudes toward various animals – why we express affection towards certain animals while eating others – and the cognitive dissonance this entails. A Harvard-educated social psychologist, Dr. Joy is a celebrated speaker, organizational consultant, author of the award-winning book, Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows*, and eighth recipient of the Institute of Jainology's Ahimsa Award, which was previously awarded to Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama. Her work has been featured by numerous national and international media outlets, including the BBC, NPR, and the New York Times. And she is the founder of the non-profit Beyond Carnism, which challenges dominant ideologies around food choice and systems and promotes a more mindful approach to our consumer choices. I came across Dr. Joy’s work via her popular TEDx Talk, Toward Rational, Authentic Food Choices — a very intelligent and cogent exploration of our normative cultural behaviors and attitudes around the food we eat and why — and have wanted to get her on the podcast ever since. I only had a tight hour with Dr. Joy, so this is a very focused discourse on speciesism and the psychological defense mechanisms we employ to rationalize our food choices. It's a conversation about the psychology of social change, and it's about how to employ psychologically optimal strategies in the advocacy of positive cultural change. Specific topics explored include: * the concept of carnism * psychological defense mechanisms to eating animals * speciesism * carnistic justifications and “humane meat” * the rise of meat & dairy alternatives * the psychology of social change * the impact of the locavore movement * masculinity of meat & gender stereotypes * how to effectively advocate for veganism Whip smart, Dr. Joy peels back the fallacious facade of logic and exposes the denial that surrounds these cultural mores with keen intellect and grace. Irrespective of your dietary proclivities, my hope is that this provocative conversation will challenge assumptions and inspire you to make more informed consumer choices that more adeptly align with your core values as an empathetic and compassionate citizen. It was a pleasure to talk with Dr. Joy and I sincerely hope you enjoy the exchange. Peace + Plants, Rich Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:05Speaker 01

  Humans are naturally empathic. We know today that empathy is our natural state. We're hardwired to feel empathy for others. And what carnism does is it uses a set of defense mechanisms. These are psychological defense mechanisms that distort our perceptions and numb our feelings so that we act against our core values of compassion and justice, that we disconnect from our natural empathy when we eat animals.

• 1:34Rich Roll?

  That's Dr. Melanie Joy, and this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:48Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:52Rich Roll?

  Greetings from a hotel room in Washington DC. My name is Rich Roll. I am your host of the podcast that bears my name, the Rich Roll Podcast, the RRP, the show where I have the great privilege, the great honor of probing the hearts and minds of some of the most interesting, some of the most inspiring thought leaders and positive change makers across a wide variety of disciplines and specialties. Doctors, nutrition experts, world-class athletes, filmmakers, entrepreneurs, activists, environmentalists, and even the occasional everyman. And the idea behind these conversations is simply to provide you with the keys to access, unlock, and unleash your best, most authentic self. So, thank you so much for tuning in today, for sharing the show with your friends

• 2:35Rich Roll?

  and on social media, for reviewing the show, and for subscribing to the show on iTunes and Google Play, and of course, for always using the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. Greatly appreciate that. Thank you very much. Before we get into today's guest, today's conversation, I wanted to very briefly let you guys know, or remind you, that I recently launched something called Roll Call. It's a short, totally free, weekly email blast with my best recommendations and resources, just things I've discovered along my journey, things I've enjoyed, things I've found helpful to grace your inbox every Thursday. That's it. No spam ever. I'm just grateful for your support. And this is a really easy, simple way for me to just get back and be of greater service to you guys.

• 3:20Rich Roll?

  So, if this sounds like something you'd be into, something you might be interested in, you can sign up for the newsletter at richroll.com. But first, let's acknowledge the awesome organizations that make this show possible.

• 3:38Rich Roll?

  Did I mention that I have Dr. Melanie Joy on the show today? I've been wanting to get her on for quite some time, but it's taken a little while because she lives in Berlin. So I was really glad to finally make this one happen during her recent visit to Los Angeles. So who is Dr. Melanie Joy? Well, Dr. Joy is a Harvard-educated social psychologist. She's perhaps best known for promulgating the term carnism, which is the invisible belief system or ideology that conditions people to eat certain animals. And we're going to get into all of it and define it in its context and specificity.

• 4:19Rich Roll?

  But to continue with the bio, Dr. Joy is also a celebrated speaker, an organizational consultant, and the author of a couple award-winning books. Her most well-known being Why We Love Dogs, Eat Pigs, and Wear Cows. Dr. Joy is the eighth recipient of the Institute of Jainology's Ahimsa Award, which was previously awarded to Nelson Mandela and the Dalai Lama. So she's in some very good company there. Her work has been featured by numerous national and international media outlets, including the BBC, NPR, and the New York Times. And she is the founder of the nonprofit Beyond Carnism, which you can find at carnism.org. And this organization challenges dominant ideologies around food choice and systems,

• 5:03Rich Roll?

  and promotes a more mindful approach to our plate. Dr. Joy's work centers around the psychology of eating meat. What is known as the quote-unquote "meat paradox," our irrational, inconsistent, and species-specific attitudes toward various animals, why we express affection toward certain animals like dogs while eating others like cows and pigs, and the cognitive dissonance that this entails. I first came across Dr. Joy's work via her amazing TED Talk. It's called Toward Rational, Authentic Food Choices, and it ranks among the top 1% of all TED Talks in number of views. And it's a very intelligent and cogent

• 5:46Rich Roll?

  challenge to our collective cultural behaviors and attitudes around the food we eat and why we eat the food we eat. I've embedded the TED Talk on the episode page on my site. I highly recommend you guys check that one out. I only had a very tight hour with Dr. Joy, so this is a very focused discourse on all the foregoing. It's about speciesism and the psychological defense mechanisms we employ to rationalize eating animals. It's about the justifications behind what we deem quote unquote humane meat. It's about the psychology of social change and it's about how to employ psychologically optimal strategies in the advocacy of positive change. It's

• 6:31Rich Roll?

  all super interesting. So without further ado, I hope you enjoy this conversation with the great Dr. Melanie Joy.

• 6:41Rich Roll?

  Awesome, Melanie. Thanks for joining me today on the podcast. I really appreciate you coming on over.

• 6:46Speaker 01

  Well, thank you for having me. It's my pleasure.

• 6:48Rich Roll?

  You're in town, you were in town kind of predominantly for the animal rights conference, right?

• 6:53Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 6:54Rich Roll?

  How was that?

• 6:55Speaker 01

  It was fantastic. It was the largest turnout in the history of the conference, which is just testament to the fact that consciousness is growing, awareness of veganism and concern for animal rights is growing. And it was really, as always, a deeply inspiring event.

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I've never been. I should go one of these years. I don't know. I just didn't, I didn't even know it was happening until it was already happening. So next year, I'm going to make a point of checking it out. Like I realized on Instagram, I'm like, all these people are there. Like, why did I not go this year? So it's in the calendar for next year.

• 7:27Speaker 01

  Well, next year, it's probably going to be in DC because they usually switch codes.

• 7:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, right, right, right. Okay. Well, an excuse to go to DC. So we only have an hour today and so I want to kind of get right into the heart of, you know, the work that you do. It's super interesting. You're somebody who has thought, you know, deeply about these issues of animal rights and the vegan movement and have a lot, you have a lot of interesting ideas and theories and concepts about it. So perhaps the best way to kind of launch right into it is just talk about this concept of carnism, which you are sort of famously have coined, you know, what that means and how that shapes and forms how you think about these issues.

• 8:10Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, I came to the concept of carnism through my own personal journey. Um, I, like many people, grew up with a dog who I loved like a family member. I certainly grew up as a person who cared about animals and didn't want them to suffer. And I also grew up eating meat, eggs, and dairy on a regular basis. And for a lot of my life, I just never made the connection between the meat on my plate and the living being it once was and the suffering inherent in that meat, eggs, and dairy. And it wasn't until I stopped eating animals, I had become sick from eating a hamburger. And, um,

• 8:46Rich Roll?

  When did that happen?

• 8:47Speaker 01

  It was, that was in 1989. It was before there was, you know, anywhere near the level of vegan consciousness that there is today. Um, I, I kind of became a vegetarian by accident. I just became disgusted by meat and I stopped eating it. And I became curious about my new diet and started, you know, wanting to learn about vegetarianism. At the time, it was before I had become completely vegan. And, um, and what I learned shocked and horrified me. And, um, but what, about animal agriculture and the suffering inherent in it. Um, and, uh, but what shocked me in some ways even more was that nobody I talked to was willing to hear what I had to say. These were people just like myself, who were fundamentally compassionate and concerned about justice.

• 9:30Speaker 01

  And I realized that there was something much more going on. And, um, that led me to study psychology, the psychosociology of violence and nonviolence, which led me to discover what I came to name carnism, which is the invisible belief system or ideology that conditions us to eat certain animals. That carnism essentially blocks our awareness and blocks our natural empathy for those species we've learned to classify as edible.

• 9:58Rich Roll?

  And it's very complicated psychologically, right? Like, it's such a bizarre, I mean, like, our, our journeys and our, our paths and our experiences are very different. But one point of similarity is that, you know, I got into this not, not out of a sense of injustice or, you know, uh, uh, an ethical or moral reason. It was a health-oriented reason. And when you say you got sick, I mean, you can get a stomach ache, like you were hospitalized, right?

• 10:22Speaker 01

  I was hospitalized, right.

• 10:23Rich Roll?

  So it was a kind of a serious condition. Mine was different, but, but that's what brought me into this. And then it became a journey of kind of opening up my eyes and starting to learn about everything else that was going on, that was And realizing the extent to which I had been living in so much cognitive dissonance. And when you have that kind of epiphany, you start to talk about it, it's not a very popular subject, right? And, and, and so what are the roots of that kind of psychological cognitive dissonance? You know, we sort of are inherently compassionate, and yet throughout our day, we're, uh, we're acting in ways that are at odds with perhaps a set of core values that we would articulate to our friends at a cocktail party.

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I mean, carnism is a, um, it's actually a simple concept to understand. Um, if you understand the way belief systems generally work, carnism, it's, it's a dominant belief system. That means that it is, um, it's embraced and maintained by all of the major, major social institutions, from the family to the state. So it's really like woven into this belief that certain animals are meant to be eaten, is, um, you know, really woven through the very fabric of society. And it therefore becomes internalized. When we're born into a carnistic culture or society, we learn to look at the world through the lens of carnism. And as you rightly point out, we, um, humans are naturally empathic.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  We know today that empathy is our natural state. Um, we're hardwired to feel empathy for others. And what carnism does is it uses a set of defense mechanisms, these are psychological defense mechanisms, that distort our perceptions and numb our feelings so that we act against our core values of compassion and justice, that we disconnect from our natural empathy when we eat animals. And, I mean, the, the beauty of understanding carnism or of carnism awareness is that once we name it, once we recognize these defenses for what they are, they lose a tremendous amount of their power over us. And when we free ourselves of this carnistic mentality that we've all been indoctrinated

• 12:34Speaker 01

  into, um, we can make food choices that reflect what we authentically think and feel, rather than what we've been taught to think and feel. So it's tremendously liberating for us as individuals, as well as obviously for, you know, the animals and the, the planet.

• 12:48Rich Roll?

  Sure. So let's unpack what those, uh, you know, what those defense mechanisms are.

• 12:54Speaker 01

  There are a number of defense mechanisms. There are, I'll give you an example of a few. One defense is justification. And the way that we learn to justify eating animals is by learning to believe that the myths of meat, eggs, and dairy are the facts of meat, eggs, and dairy. These myths are expressed largely through what I refer to as the three N's of justification. Eating animals is normal, natural, and necessary. And, you know, perhaps not surprisingly, these same arguments have been used to justify violent practices throughout human history, you know, such as slavery and male dominance.

• 13:34Speaker 01

  So, another defense, psychological defense, is abstraction. We learn to see animals as abstraction, as lacking or farmed animals, I should say. We recognize the individuality often of our dogs and cats, but then when we look at farmed animals, we tend to think of them as, you know, lacking in any individuality or personality of their own. We learn to believe, for instance, that a pig is a pig and all pigs are the same. These defense mechanisms numb us from our empathy for animals. It's much more difficult to carry out harm towards somebody if we recognize that they are someone and not something, that they are an individual and not simply an abstract member of a group.

• 14:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and that's fortified by the arm's length that separates the consumer from those animals themselves. So it's hard to individuate when we don't experience them on a daily basis like we do our pets, our dogs. And there are plenty of, you know, very powerful interests that, that spend a lot of money and time and energy to ensure that that arm's length distance remains intact.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 14:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  Absolutely. I mean, carnism is a self-perpetuating system like sexism and racism, and at the same time, there are vested interests. There are those animal agribusiness, you know, big animal agribusiness that have vested interest in maintaining this carnistic status quo and maintaining this disconnect between us, our empathy, our hearts and minds, and the ...of what's happening to the animals.

• 15:05Rich Roll?

  When you really think about it, the specism is just the most bizarre psychological construct, you know, of our culture. The idea that we could cherish our dogs and have such a completely dispassioned attitude about, you know, the bacon on our plate, which is essentially indistinguishable in terms of the level of, you know, consciousness that that animal carries. I mean, it can be argued that the pig actually is perhaps, you know, has more capacity, more intelligence, you know, more of an emotional interior than even a dog.

• 15:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And specism, you know, it's, carnism is a sub-ideology of specism, just as antisemitism, for example, is a sub-ideology of racism. They're structured in very similar ways. It's bizarre and it's also not in some ways because the mentality that enables us to cause, to carry out harm toward animals is no different than the mentality that enables us to carry out harm toward humans. Humans have a remarkable capacity to compartmentalize. You know, we bomb children on the other side of the world, something that we would never support doing, you know, closer to home. So, or I should say, we support, you know, certain bombings.

• 16:20Speaker 01

  And I think it's, you know, it's very important for us to recognize the way that these isms, racism and sexism and, you know, all forms of belief systems that allow us to carry out violence are similarly structured. So even though the experience of each set of victims will always be unique, the mentality that enables the violence is always the same.

• 16:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you really have to look at it through the lens of a civil rights movement perspective to see it in that way, right? And getting people to that place is the challenge.

• 16:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Getting people to hear information that they've been conditioned to block out and to resist is really the challenge. And, you know, when we recognize carnism, we can recognize that eating animals is not simply a matter of personal ethics. It's the inevitable end result of a deeply entrenched oppressive system. And in this way, eating animals is really a social justice issue. It's not just about personal choice, as many of us have been taught to believe.

• 17:23Rich Roll?

  But getting, you know, working towards habit change in the average consumer means overcoming those three N's. Because if you can't overcome that idea that it is natural, necessary, and normal, then you're not moving off of point zero.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  Well, you know, it's a process. For many people, this kind of change is a process. And we can see, I've given my presentation about carnism in 30 countries now, on five continents, soon to be six. We're going to Africa in November.

• 17:51Rich Roll?

  Oh, it's exciting.

• 17:52Speaker 01

  It's been really exciting. And what's been so exciting is to see the overwhelming response of the public. Everywhere I go, I see the same thing. People care, people want to be a part of the solution, and the world is really changing. The vegan movement is one of the fastest-growing social justice movements in the world today. So there is this kind of wave of growing consciousness that is, in fact, sweeping the world, even in places where meat consumption is starting to increase. You know, just like big tobacco, big agribusiness is now starting to export its problems as more and more people in the West become aware of the health ramifications and ethical ramifications of eating an animal-based diet. And so we're seeing an increase in meat, egg, and dairy consumption in some other places in the world.

• 18:36Speaker 01

  But we're also, what's really exciting, seeing an increase in the number of vegan advocates and of people who are raising awareness about, you know, the public health crisis that has been caused by this mass consumption of eating animals.

• 18:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's super interesting in the, you know, in the developing world. Like in China, with the rise of the middle class, there's a sense of entitlement that comes with that, that like, okay, now, you know, we're not gonna eat rice every day anymore. Now we get to eat our burgers, right? And so, and so bringing the movement to that level of awareness and trying to combat that, I think, is like the next wave of the challenge.

• 19:09Speaker 01

  And it's happening. You know, some of the animal rights organizations here are expanding to, you know, they're internationalizing now, so they have branches in some developing countries, for instance. And we have recently launched the Center for Effective Vegan Advocacy, where we train vegan advocates around the world and support vegan organizations so that they can communicate their message and run Campaigns more effectively. And so there is a lot of effort being put into making sure that as carnism decreases in some places, it doesn't just, you know, skyrocket in others. The vegan movement really is a global movement and it's becoming an increasingly global movement. And that's very exciting to see.

• 19:50Rich Roll?

  So we have this prong of carnism that's rooted in justification. Another prong is denial, right? So what is the, what is the difference or the interplay between justification and denial?

• 20:01Speaker 01

  Well, denial is really the, the main defense of the entire system. You know, if we deny there's a problem in the first place, then we don't have to do anything about it. Right? So we deny that eating animals causes suffering. I mean, denial is expressed largely through invisibility, right? So that the victims of the system remain conveniently out of sight and therefore out of public consciousness. And, you know, we also, the ideology or the belief system itself remains invisible. We've named veganism and vegetarianism, but we haven't until recently named the dominant belief system, which is carnism. And this creates this misconception that somehow those who are not vegan or vegetarian don't follow a belief system.

• 20:46Speaker 01

  But when eating animals is not a necessity, which is true for many people in the world today, not everybody, but for many people in the world today, then it is a choice. And choices always stem from beliefs.

• 20:56Rich Roll?

  So how do we work to better overcome this sense of denial?

• 21:01Speaker 01

  Well, we're already seeing that happen. You know, thanks to the advent of the internet and thanks to the hard work of vegan advocates and professionals, there's been a tremendous amount of awareness raising such that today it's, you know, most people no longer deny at least the most egregious practices, you know, that are happening in factory farms. Most people recognize that there is an ethical issue here. It's not just taken for granted. So, you know, awareness is key. And I personally believe that it's vitally important that we not simply raise awareness of the consequences of animal agriculture or the practices, but

• 21:43Speaker 01

  We actually raise awareness of carnism itself, of the very belief system and the defenses that condition us to turn a blind eye to those consequences and that condition us to shut down our hearts when it comes to those consequences.

• 21:58Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and there's been some really interesting kind of social developments in this arena. We're seeing, you know, the explosion of, you know, the quote-unquote like grass-fed, you know, beef movement and this idea of, you know, quote-unquote ethical meat. And this is something that I experience on a daily basis. Like, oh, I know you're vegan-rich, but, you know, I make sure that all my, you know, I'm not vegan, but like I make sure that all my meat is grass-fed and ethically raised. And, you know, this is a very interesting defense mechanism, right, which almost reinforces this, you know, behavior that you have called carnism. It allows people to obviate that sense of guilt or that sense of cognitive

• 22:41Rich Roll?

  dissonance of living at odds with your values and feel better about basically doing the same thing.

• 22:47Speaker 01

  Well, it is, it is a carnistic justification. And, I mean, the good news is that most people, and perhaps all people who are eating, you know, so-called grass-fed beef or who are trying to support more what they believe are more humane farming practices are doing so because they actually want to cause less harm.

• 23:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that is an expression of that inherent, you know, compassion and empathy.

• 23:12Speaker 01

  Exactly. Like, there's a desire to do less harm. The problem is that, you know, the way of going about it is not solving, it's not actually solving the problem. We're dealing with other carnistic justifications with, you know, what I believe is that as denial becomes increasingly destabilized as the main defense of carnism, there's an increasing need to justify eating animals. And so we see these new justifications such as, you know, so-called humane meat. And these are justifications that were, not surprisingly,

• 23:43Speaker 01

  At least in some part, constructed by animal agribusiness.

• 23:46Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  In order to maintain their profit margin. Now, it's only when we step out of the carnistic mentality that we can see the absurdity of the concept of humane meat. So, you know, for example, most people would consider it cruel to slaughter a happy, healthy golden retriever.

• 24:03Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Just because people like the way her legs taste. And yet, when the exact same thing is done to individuals of other species, we're taught to call it humane. So, we really need to step outside the carnistic box to recognize the irrationality of this notion of, you know, so-called humane meat.

• 24:20Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. I saw a presentation by Gary Francione not too long ago. You know, Professor of Law at Rutgers, who's, you know, very intense hardcore animal rights activist advocate, who approaches this issue from a legal and civil rights perspective. And he makes no apologies for this idea that things like, you know, this humane meat movement and Meatless Mondays, that these are actually setting the movement back. Like, most people would say Meatless Mondays is a step in the right direction. Okay, so these people are eating grass-fed beef. Well, that's better, because that's a vote against, you know,

• 25:04Rich Roll?

  the entrenched system of industrialized animal agriculture on some level. But the fact that it allows people to perpetuate these behaviors because they now feel comfortable with them is a strike against the ultimate goal, which is to get people off of eating animal products altogether.

• 25:23Speaker 01

  Well, we don't actually know that to be true.

• 25:25Rich Roll?

  Right. So, I'm just interested in your reaction to that, or how you may differ from that perspective.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, what we do know is that social change throughout history in all social justice movements has been slow.

• 25:37Speaker 01

  It has been, consciousness doesn't change overnight, patterns aren't broken overnight, and habits don't end overnight. So, social change is, has historically and consistently been a series of steps. For us to decide or to determine which steps are sending us toward, you know, more directly toward our goal and which are deviating toward our goal, we would actually have to do some real research. And I, you know, from what I understand, Professor Francion doesn't actually have any data whatsoever to support the assertion that certain campaigns and measures are setting the movement back. What we do see is the numbers of vegans and vegetarians rising in many countries around the world.

• 26:20Speaker 01

  We do see awareness of and support for veganism and vegetarianism increasing in many places around the world. So, we are doing at least some things right. And for us to really determine which of these campaigns and which of these approaches are most beneficial for the movement to bring us toward our end goal, we need to be doing some, and people are starting to do this, some real, some research and collecting some real data. So then we can make assertions like this and have them based on, based on data rather than based on opinion.

• 26:53Rich Roll?

  Right. I think there is this amazing rising tide of interest in this movement, and we are approaching a tipping point. It has, you know, tapped into, you know, mainstream kind of zeitgeist nerve. People are talking about it, they're interested in it. It's nothing like what it was, you know, five years ago, let alone 10 years ago, and that's very exciting and interesting and, you know, gives me a feeling of optimism. And yet, still, the numbers of overall vegans in the world is relatively low by comparison. I mean, what are the statistics right now? It's like 3% or something like that?

• 27:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it varies from country to country. Yeah, I don't know, I haven't actually been in the States in a year. I know I'm not sure what the numbers are even here at the moment. But, but I do know that surveys show that the numbers, the numbers are at least increasing.

• 27:42Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  And of course, but we're talking about transforming a deeply entrenched Possibly the most deeply entrenched depressive system in human history. I mean, humans have been eating animals for millennia, carrying out, you know, exercising our power over animals, not identifying with animals. Animal exploitation is built into virtually every practice, every human, you know, institutional and personal practice. Um, so transforming this, and I understand, you know, we, when we see the suffering, when we become aware of the magnitude of the suffering, we become aware of the urgency of our mission and, you know, the need to transform this, to end this suffering as quickly as possible.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  And it's important for vegans in particular, who can easily despair, um, you know, when they allow themselves to take in the magnitude of that suffering, to also recognize that, you know, we are asking for a level of social transformation never, never before seen in human history. And, um, and that is not something that's going to come quickly. However, it is something that the numbers show us we are in fact working toward and we are starting to achieve.

• 28:55Rich Roll?

  And there's some really interesting things happening with technology right now in the food space, you know, what, what's going on with Impossible Foods and Memphis Meats and, and, you know, the idea that we could create these, you know, they're, I don't know what they're calling them, meat analogues or sort of Petri dish raised meat, or, you know, a plant-based burger that cooks and bleeds and sizzles exactly like a hamburger and actually tastes just as good at a comparable price point. These are things that I think are going to be game changers because, um, rather than asking people to completely change, you know, their entire approach to food that they've held their whole life, if you provide them with a cost-effective alternative that is

• 29:40Rich Roll?

  compassionate, that maybe even tastes better and is healthier for you, and you make it convenient, that seems to be, you know, a powerful avenue towards, um, towards change.

• 29:51Speaker 01

  Right, you lower the bar. You know, basically lower the bar. And this is one of the reasons that meat reducers can be so beneficial for the movement as a whole. When people, you know, one of the main reasons that there are the offerings, the, the amount of offerings today of plant-based alternatives to what used to be just animal foods is not because of the hardcore vegans, the tiny percentage of vegans that are demanding that we, you know, have veggie burgers available en masse. It's largely because of the meat reducers. And so, you know, if we can make these meat alternatives, meat and dairy alternatives increasingly available, people aren't going to work, it's not going to be so hard to practice your compassion.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  It's just logical that people will make the compassionate choice that's healthier for them when it becomes easier for them to do so.

• 30:42Rich Roll?

  It must be interesting living in Berlin, though. It's, you know, the vegan movement is, is very strong and powerful there. They even have, you know, all vegan grocery stores, Vegans, which I understand is they're starting to roll those out in the United States, which, which is pretty cool.

• 30:56Speaker 01

  I know they had a contract and intended to do so. I don't know where the things are at with that at the moment, but they certainly...

• 31:02Rich Roll?

  There was one in Portland, I thought they were going to open one in Portland. I don't know where it stands right now, but...

• 31:05Speaker 01

  I don't know either, but I know it was in the works. I don't know what's happened with it, the, where they are in that process. But there are several Vegans grocery stores in Berlin. The owner of Vegans now is focusing less on creating new Vegans grocery stores and more in getting Vegans shelves in existing large grocery stores.

• 31:25Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's interesting.

• 31:25Speaker 01

  So it's sort of like, you know, Kaiser's, which is the, oh my God, what's our main grocery store here? I just, well, here it's Ralph's, like in, you know, in California. It now has like vegan stands and shelves where it's like everything vegan. It's, that's what the translation is in, in German, you know, so you can, which is great because for people who aren't looking specifically for vegan foods, you know, they now have the opportunity to pass by them and they're kind of, they're integrated in with the other foods.

• 32:02Rich Roll?

  Well, I want to talk a little bit about your expertise, psychology. Not only the psychology of carnism and these defense mechanisms and the kind of blinders that we put on to avoid having to look at the unpleasant realities of certain decisions that we make, but also the psychology that gets baked into advocacy and how to sort of communicate these ideas to the public. Because, of course, you're no stranger to the idea that a lot of people just get turned off by vegans. Like, "Oh, here comes the vegan. He's gonna shame me and tell me that I'm a terrible person." And the lights just go off with that kind of person.

• 32:42Rich Roll?

  And that is the conventional wisdom about the prototypical animal rights activist or the vegan person who just can't talk about anything else and monopolizes every conversation and makes people feel uncomfortable. So, let's get into what that psychology is and perhaps a better way of grappling with the issues and communicating it in a way that perhaps might be more effective. What have you learned from your studies and the thinking that you've done around this?

• 33:13Speaker 01

  Well, it's important to recognize that while it is true that there are skills and awareness, an awareness that vegans can adopt that will help to significantly increase the chances that their message will be heard as they intend it to be. Society is set up in such a way to make it challenging to communicate about veganism in the first place. And one reason is, as I explained before, these carnistic defenses are internalized. So, for many vegans, often the only thing they have to do is to say, "I'm vegan," and all of a sudden, they get this defensive reaction and can feel really pathologized.

• 33:52Rich Roll?

  Right. So, in other words, sorry, I don't mean to interrupt you, but that person might not say anything else, but the person on the receiving end of that will walk away saying that person was preachy or something.

• 34:01Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right. Because one of the ways that carnism maintains itself, I've talked a bit about these carnistic defense mechanisms. Carnism also uses a specific type of defense mechanisms, I refer to them as secondary defenses, that are geared not toward validating carnism, you know, saying eating animals is normal, natural, and necessary, but rather toward invalidating veganism. This is the way oppressive systems keep themselves alive. They validate or strengthen themselves and they invalidate, or try to weaken, the movement that challenges them. In this case, it's the vegan movement. So, these secondary carnistic defenses invalidate veganism and the vegan movement

• 34:42Speaker 01

  in various ways, and one of the key ways is by stereotyping and otherwise silencing vegan advocates. It's a form of "shoot the messenger." If we shoot the messenger, we don't have to take seriously the implications of his or her message. And this has been used, you know, this strategy has been used throughout history to silence those who would speak out against an oppressive status quo. So, for example, you know, the anti-slavery abolitionists were called sentimentalists, who were just overly emotional. And we hear the same thing again being directed at vegans. So, I commend vegans. It takes a tremendous amount of courage

• 35:25Speaker 01

  to live your truth in a culture that works very hard to pull you back into the carnistic norm, the carnistic cocoon of unknowing, and to be on the frontlines of a social movement that is still quite young. That said, for many vegans, recognizing that we are automatically perceived as moralistic, because this is the frame that we're operating, our society is operating within. When we communicate from a place where we are not feeling moralistic, you know, attitude translates to behavior very, very often, and we are simply communicating

• 36:08Speaker 01

  with the intention of sharing our truth, we'll minimize defensiveness. There's a way, there are ways to minimize carnistic defensiveness. I always recommend that vegans and everyone learn the basics of effective communication. There's a fabulous book that we recommend on our website called Messages. The author's name is McKay. The main author's name is McKay. And, you know, the big takeaway from this book, one of the key big takeaways from this book, is that when we're communicating, regardless as to when we're communicating, you know, what we're talking about, whether we're debating whether to stay home or go out on a Saturday night, whether to eat animals or not to eat animals. If we have a healthy process, our communication is going to be more effective.

• 36:52Speaker 01

  The process is the how you communicate and the content is what you're talking about. What you're talking about doesn't matter so much. How you talk about it matters. And a healthy process has as its goal, understanding the other and being understood by the other. That's the whole purpose of communication in the first place. I'm not trying to change you. I'm not trying to be right and make you wrong. I'm simply trying to communicate the truth of my experience and am equally interested in the truth of your experience. And when it comes to vegan advocacy, if we can move into conversations with the goal of planting seeds, Colleen Patrick Udrow says this, "Don't try to change people.

• 37:33Speaker 01

  It's not your job. You can't do it anyway. It's exhausting. Plant seeds." I suggest sharing, advocating through sharing your own story. You know, if somebody says to me, "Why are you vegan?", I tell them why I'm vegan, not why they should be vegan.

• 37:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah, communicating, I always try to avoid giving advice and stick to my own experience. That's, I'm in recovery, alcoholism recovery. So that's like a primary kind of cornerstone of 12-step, like, you know, share your experience. And the more that you stick to that and relate it to yourself, it becomes more digestible to the other person because you're not preaching and you're not shaming. And, you know, these ideas, these emotions that you've talked about, like the shame, the grandiosity, the entitlement, you know, the perfectionism that kind of come across through ineffective communication strategies ultimately undermine, you know, the goal that you're kind of aiming for.

• 38:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely. Shaming people, I always say that shaming somebody is a great way to get them to do exactly the opposite of what you want. Shamed people withdraw or attack. Shamed people do not feel a sense of agency to be proactive in a positive way typically.

• 38:47Rich Roll?

  Do you feel like, I mean, there's all different, there's a whole spectrum of voices in any movement, you know, and that's no different in the animal rights or the vegan movement. So you have people that are very ardent, you know, throwing buckets of blood on storefronts and all of that. And then you have the very, you know, sort of more calming, accepting voices on the other end of that spectrum. Do you feel like all of those voices have a purpose and a point and they're all, you know, serve some kind of, I mean, there are some people that respond really well to that, like they see that and that is impactful for them, like the really hardcore thing. Or do you feel like if everybody could tone it down a little bit and learn more effective means of communication, that it would advance the cause better?

• 39:32Speaker 01

  Well, not all strategies are created equal. And there are strategies that are counterproductive, there are strategies that are unproductive, and there are strategies that are more productive. One of the reasons we founded the Center for Effective Vegan Advocacy was to take the strategies that we know work and look at the strategies that we know don't work or don't work that well, and try to bring them out more fully, bring them, you know, into the movement more fully.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  I don't know anybody who would respond well to a bucket of blood being dumped on their expensive fur coat. There are, however, you know, nuances and differences in personalities and in cultures. Some cultures are more receptive to more direct communication, others need more kind of intellectual, if you will, framing. But all of that, all of those are nuances within the broader framework of a healthy communicative process. And I don't think that that should ever be compromised. We can run campaigns and we can be, you know, strong and effective. There isn't, you can be peaceful and powerful at the same time. And I would suggest that you can be even more powerful when you are peaceful in many ways.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  Being peaceful doesn't mean that you're not disruptive in some way.

• 40:46Rich Roll?

  So what would be an example of that? Can you illustrate that?

• 40:50Speaker 01

  Well, some of the work that we do at Beyond Carnism, you know, some of the work that Mercy for Animals, for example, is doing, you know, promoting, asking people to bear witness to the reality of what's happening in animal factories, but doing so in a way that's not shaming them, that's not blindsiding them, that's not shocking them, but saying, "Hey, guess what? This is what we've learned. You deserve, you have, you know, the right to know." And, you know, really speaking to the part of people that we want to grow. What you focus on grows. What seeds do you want to water in someone? If you shame somebody, you're going to grow their inner shame. If you speak to somebody as though they're a person who has the capacity to be a part of the solution, who probably wants to, if they're reached in the right way, you increase the likelihood that that's going to happen.

• 41:35Rich Roll?

  I think understanding your audience is really important as well. Like, for example, you know, young people expect transparency in the corporations that they patronize, you know, on a level I think that perhaps our generation isn't really, you know, doesn't think as much about. So the idea that a company would be so blatantly untransparent in its means of manufacturing and distribution is an avenue that can be, you know, sort of explored to get somebody to look at something that perhaps ordinarily they wouldn't, right? And you kind of break carnism down into these subcategories of, you know, what do you have? You have eco-carnism, bio-carnism, you know, under this rubric of neo-carnism, right?

• 42:20Rich Roll?

  Which gets into a little bit some of the ethical meat stuff that we talked about before, but maybe we can kind of explore those subcategories.

• 42:26Speaker 01

  Well, what I had mentioned earlier is that as denial becomes increasingly destabilized, justification takes on a more important role in maintaining carnism, right? So we can't deny that there's a problem anymore, so now we need to justify, you know, eating animals. And so each of these justifications, eating animals is normal, natural, and necessary, has morphed into kind of its own form of carnism, newer form of carnism, which I refer to as neo-carnism. So we have eating animals as normal. That has morphed into what I call compassionate carnism, which we see in the whole happy meat movement. Right, so this idea, you know, this is people have become aware of what's happening in factory farms, at least, and have said, "I don't want to be a part of this."

• 43:11Speaker 01

  And at the same time, they still perceive veganism as too far outside the norm, the carnistic norm. Veganism is radical. So how do I stay within the norm but not feel so bad about what I'm doing? And so then we can see this, the advent of, you know, so-called happy meat. Eating animals as natural has morphed into what I, what I refer to as eco-carnism. And so, you know, you can see this in the locavore, like, the locavore movement, and people like Michael Pollan.

• 43:42Rich Roll?

  Right, reduce your footprint, but don't abandon it altogether.

• 43:46Speaker 01

  Right, and the argument is that, you know, we shouldn't eat animals from factory farms. It's terrible what happens to the animals, it's terrible for the environment, but we shouldn't stop eating animals altogether. We're still justified in eating animals because eating animals is natural. The argument is, tribal societies eat animals. It's the natural way for humans to be. Humans have always eaten animals. And there are a couple of things to be aware of when it comes to eco-carnism. One is that how we define natural is determined by the lens, the dominant lens, that we look through. You know, so basically, you know, we tend to look at history, which is how we come to the definition of natural through the lens of the dominant culture. That's why we call it his story and not her story,

• 44:31Speaker 01

  because we look at, look at it through the dominant history, through the dominant patriarchal lens. When we look at history through the lens of carnism, we only look as far back as we need to in order to justify our current carnistic practices. Our very earliest ancestors were actually fruit eaters, not scavengers, which they evolved into, you know, and omnivores, which they evolved into. Does that mean that we, you know, are not somewhat omnivorous? No. But if we want to use natural as a justification for carnism, then we should be clear that we're only looking as far back in history as we choose to.

• 45:08Rich Roll?

  Well, human history is littered with all kinds of insane behaviors that you could then label as natural. We were raping each other and all kinds of craziness, right? So you could make the, "Well, that was natural, you know, but we didn't tolerate that," right? So, you know, are we growing and evolving as a species?

• 45:24Speaker 01

  That's right. That's exactly right. And so with eco-carnism, the argument is, "Well, let's just eat animals in a more natural way. It's natural to eat animals, so let's kill them ourselves. We'll raise them and kill them ourselves." And, you know, this frames, you know, in this frame, the suggestion is that vegans are just soft urbanites and suburbanites who are really disconnected from their source of their food and they, you know, don't get their hands dirty and buy their packaged, plant-based products. But, you know, it's really, you know, important to recognize that in this lens, empathy and compassion are framed as qualities to transcend rather than cultivate. You know, the fact that we are at the point now where we actually feel enough empathy, we're connected enough to

• 46:07Speaker 01

  our empathy to individuals of other species, such that killing them unnecessarily in particular disturbs us, that is not something to be ashamed of. That doesn't mean that we're too disconnected from our food. That actually means, in my opinion, that we're more connected than we have been in the past.

• 46:25Rich Roll?

  It gets more complicated with men and gender roles and this idea of masculinity, right? Like, what does it mean to be a man? And baked into that is this concept of hunter-gatherer that for whatever reason we still cling to despite the fact that it has no bearing on how we, you know, most people who live in Western society, you know, function. But that if you are not eating meat, then you are somehow less masculine. So how do we begin to?

• 46:57Rich Roll?

  You know, overcome that, which I think is, you know, that's a really big thing for most guys, that they don't want to be perceived as weak. This still, you know, despite the work of people like Brene Brown, the idea that vulnerability is weakness, to, to show that kind of compassion is to say that you're some kind of lesser man. We know from, from the research, that that is actually the opposite, that there is strength and power and vulnerability, and that, you know, the greatest leaders of, throughout history are ones that know how to wield power, but also know when to wield compassion. Like, you know, the, the great leaders understand that they're caretakers, right? But for some reason, that gets lost

• 47:41Rich Roll?

  in the translation of how we take care of, you know, the animals on our planet. So how do we, you know, as men, like, how can you speak to men to help them kind of understand and get over that hurdle?

• 47:53Speaker 01

  Well, this is one area where we can, you know, quite clearly see the way that these isms intersect, you know, so veganism and feminism, for example, naturally intersecting carnism and patriarchy or sexism, you know, are naturally intersecting this idea of being a lesser man because you're not eating, a lesser man is basically a woman, right? And the fact that we perceive women as lesser, the fact that we can actually, you know, when we call a man a woman, or a boy a girl, that it's actually a slur, tells us something about not only what it means to be a man, but what it means to be a woman. And, you know, really helping men and women to recognize the way that we've been socialized to believe

• 48:34Speaker 01

  that, you know, they're, well, when it comes to males and females, anyway, you know, both genders somehow have a separate set of qualities, and that one is lesser and one is stronger, we tend to, you know, overvalue the male or masculine definition of power, which is power over others. It's wielding power over others, rather than sharing power with others. And just in communicating with men about this issue, it's, it's important and useful to help men think outside of this box that we've all been born into, to, to believe that being a real man means exercising power and control over others, and to sort of shift masculine power from being, you know,

• 49:15Speaker 01

  Power from being bully, about bullying, to being about, you know, protecting. You know, men can perceive themselves, when it comes to eating animals in particular, we can see this. Eating meat is an exercise of power over an individual who was weaker and, you know, whose, whose body was exploited for the purpose of becoming somebody's food. One could also look at the refusal to eat that meat and to stand up and speak out against that as, you know, playing the hero role and saying, "I'm going to use my power. What it means to me to be a man is to stand up for what I believe in."

• 49:49Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  And to connect with those parts of myself, my compassion, you know, that, that I, that I value and that I have the strength and of conviction to be able to do this, to speak and live my truth as I understand it.

• 50:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that takes a lot more courage and strength than just, you know, sort of operating under the predominant cultural mores, right? But it's still, it's such a, it's such a difficult thing, right, for a lot of, for a lot of guys. And I think that's why the athletes are important, you know, the vegan athletes that are out there, you know, everybody from Patrick Baboomian to the MMA fighters, because it doesn't matter, you know, what they, what they say or what comes out of their mouth, if they can perform well without doing this and they can speak to that, you know, paradigm that you're, that you, you've been referencing, that wins hearts and minds in a, in a very interesting way.

• 50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 50:40Rich Roll?

  And really, it really gets through to, you know, the typical guy.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And it's, it's one of the many paradigms that are changing and that need to be changed over time.

• 50:50Rich Roll?

  What do you think is the biggest obstacle right now? Or what's the blind spot that we're not talking about in addressing, you know, how to advance this movement and ideology?

• 51:03Speaker 01

  You're referring to veganism?

• 51:06Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:12Rich Roll?

  Maybe there isn't one.

• 51:13Speaker 01

  Oh, no, there's always a blind spot, but it might just be that it's my blind spot, too. And that's why I can't answer it. I mean, I think the movement is doing a fairly good job of addressing its blind spots. I think there are certainly areas of weakness. And some blind spots that have been talked about, so they're not totally blind, but we should be more aware of them. I think that we would tremendously benefit the vegan movement if we were more intersectional, if we were aware of our own racial and gender and other biases and prejudices that we bring into the movement. I think it's important for us to be talking more about race, diversifying the movement more, so that it's not overrepresented by white people.

• 51:55Speaker 01

  It is a diverse movement, but it's not perceived as diverse as it is, because the leadership is not as diverse as, in my opinion, it could or should be. It's a movement made up predominantly of women still, and yet the leadership is predominantly males. And so I think these are very important conversations for us to be having. I think we really do need to be having conversations about, more than anything, about gender and about race.

• 52:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, human beings are funny. You know, we all walk around believing that we're perceiving the world objectively, and yet, of course, none of us are, right?

• 52:33Speaker 01

  Not as long... It's a very hard thing to do. The best thing we can do is to commit to examining our biases and being open to feedback when we get it. And realizing that we are always going to be bringing our subjectivity to our work, so not to assume that we're objective.

• 52:52Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean, it really transcends this issue in so many ways. I mean, if you can't take feedback from somebody else, or look at yourself in the mirror and take stock of, you know, the objective reality of whatever character defect is holding you back, or, you know, some persistent, you know, idea, or thought, or action that is harming you, if you can't do that, then you can't...

• 53:18Speaker 01

  You're in trouble.

• 53:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you can't grow in general, and nobody's going to be able to get through to you about anything, right? So, you have to really... Be willing to, there's a vulnerability with that, right? Psychologically, you have to be willing to say, "Yeah, I'm wrong about this," or "Yes, I can hear you, I'm gonna think about that," you know, in a new and different way. And like, I know for myself, like, I had to sort of be personally dismantled before I was able to do that. But it's, and it's frightening and terrifying, but ultimately, that's how I've been able to, you know, rebuild my life and become a stronger person. But it's terrifying for most people, and it's not something that we really value or encourage people to do.

• 53:59Speaker 01

  Right, and it's something that we're also even defended against. I mean, let alone not encouraging people to give us feedback. We're actually defended against it. I, you know, an example, recently, I was talking to a male colleague of mine who runs a fairly significant vegan organization. And I, he, we were having a meeting together, he was in a meeting, he talked to me after the meeting, and he was frustrated because one of the people in the meeting was really not saying that much. There were, it was four men and a woman, and they were all in leadership positions. Of course, it was very unbalanced leadership, and he was frustrated that the woman wasn't talking that much, and he said, "Well, maybe she doesn't have that much to say." And it was very much an example of what happens pretty consistently, where if there isn't

• 54:44Speaker 01

  space made for women, that women's voices will get squeezed out. And, and they've done plenty of studies, you know, looking at the way gendered communication patterns. And this is very concerning to me. My colleague is open-minded, so I could talk to him about this and encourage him, you know, as a male and as a leader, to try to be aware of gender and to try to not let the men kind of override what the woman's saying. But many, many instances, I have had similar conversations and have been told that, you know, "I'm making a big deal out of nothing, it's not that bad, oh sure, we'll work on it," and then nothing happens. And so, you know, we have this assumption that just because somebody is vegan, then

• 55:29Speaker 01

  they've somehow got it, you know? Well, by the time you make the connection with animals, you know, you've gone through, you know, all of the other levels of, you know, sort of human rights connections that you could make, and that's just not the case. Human beings, as I said, have a remarkable capacity to compartmentalize. And I think what we really need to do, you know, and getting back to your question about the blind spot in the movement, or the blind spots in the movement, is be willing to take feedback from those particularly who are in positions of less power and take them seriously. When somebody has less power, is a member of a group that has less power, and they say, "This is a problem, you know, this feels discriminating, and this is why," to listen.

• 56:08Rich Roll?

  Right, it's very easy to discount that group, or that individual.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Consistently happens.

• 56:13Rich Roll?

  Because of that lack of power.

• 56:14Speaker 01

  Yep, consistently, and because we're socialized to do it. I've had countless conversations with male colleagues where I say, you know, as a woman, I was on a panel, and I won't say what panel it was, but it was a, there were a lot of important people in the room, and, and it was, it was in, anyway, it was in another country, far, far from here, and I was, it was me, and it was all men, on the panel, and the moderator was female, and the two of, we were consistently interrupted, I had less time than everybody else, and every time the moderator started talking, somebody would talk over her. And I said to my colleague after that, who had hosted me and actually gotten me into this important conference that I was speaking at, I said, "Wow, you know, it was really

• 56:59Speaker 01

  interesting to see this, and it was such a gendered experience, it felt like, you know, it's very, a very familiar experience to me, you know, as a woman, this has happened consistently." And he just looked at me, and he said, "There was, there was no gendered anything happening there." And his automatic reaction was to completely dismiss the, you know, I was 49 at the time, you know, 49 years of my experience as a woman, and I was just told that I was wrong, and it was, it just erased my reality. And I thought, this is exactly, and he's a vegan, and I thought, this is exactly what we're asking people not to do when it comes to animals.

• 57:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, that's a pretty illustrative blind spot, right? He couldn't see that whatsoever. And when challenged on it, was in a place of denial, like refusing to really even look at it.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Exactly. And I'm using gender as an example because that's my own experience, but we could apply this across the board.

• 57:57Rich Roll?

  I'm thinking about, just within the movement, the vegan movement, the very fierce and loud dismissal of the China study, right? Like, somebody writes a blog post that purports to debunk it, which didn't really debunk it, and then it's very easy for somebody who feels their worldview being challenged to just say, "Well, that was debunked." And then suddenly, by virtue of the internet and virality, that becomes the conventional wisdom around the China study, despite the fact that it's not true whatsoever, right? It's just, "Oh yeah, that was debunked, or didn't you hear it was debunked?"

• 58:38Rich Roll?

  When it wasn't, because that allows you to feel better about your world, you're not challenged in your worldview to just hear that. You're more likely to adopt that without investigation than to actually look into and explore whether that is indeed the case.

• 58:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we could, you know, we could accomplish a lot if all of us just stopped and listened and took seriously the information that was given to us. We don't have to believe all of it, but we could stop and listen and consider it. Take a moment to stop and listen and consider. And if this information is coming from somebody whose experience is different than yours, take them at face value. And if we did that, I think it would go a long way for many of the problems in the world.

• 59:32Rich Roll?

  What is some of the literature or the books out there that you have found to be most instructive or beneficial on this issue? That maybe people, I mean, there's the obvious ones, but, you know, maybe some of the lesser-known ones?

• 59:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, for people who are just interested in learning about power dynamics and how these social power dynamics get played out and are typically so invisible, there's a book called Privilege, Power, and Difference. It's a very, it's a thin book. I used to use it as one of my textbooks when I was teaching sociology that I think outlines the dynamics quite well.

• 1:00:07Rich Roll?

  Do you remember the author?

• 1:00:08Speaker 01

  Alan G. I think it's his middle initial, Johnson. There is Jackson Katz, K-A-T-Z, does some great work in raising awareness of gender dynamics and gender issues. Alan G. Johnson has a new book about patriarchy, and I don't remember the title of it, but it's on his website. And then the book that I mentioned to you, Messages, by McKay and All, about effective communication. I think those books are, you know, probably some of the most useful books for people who really want to be more, you know, open and more examined and communicate more objectively and effectively.

• 1:00:49Rich Roll?

  Cool. Well, I'll put links to those books up in the show notes. And tell me a little bit about the work of your organization, Beyond Carnism.

• 1:00:57Speaker 01

  Sure. Well, Beyond Carnism's mission is to expose and transform carnism, and we use a two-pronged strategic approach to do this. All of our programs and outreach are designed to either weaken carnism or strengthen veganism. And, you know, like I said earlier, this is sort of, carnism has this two-pronged strategy to maintain itself, and so our programs are designed to basically do the opposite and ideally to do both equally. So, we, we reach out to people who are, you know, everybody, not simply vegans and vegetarians, but meat eaters as well. And so, we have videos, we have a new booklet, and a campus outreach program that we're starting up now, and...

• 1:01:41Speaker 01

  To help people become aware of what carnism is and to help people become empowered to make choices that help to transform the system and reduce their participation in carnism. And we've also launched, as I mentioned before, the Center for Effective Vegan Advocacy, whose mission is to increase the impact of vegan advocacy worldwide. And so through the center, we do trainings, onsite trainings, for organizations and advocates around the world. We have a Strategy Resource Center. And we also provide small grants for smaller international organizations outside of the US.

• 1:02:19Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's very cool.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, and those grants are from a designated, another person, a designated grantor.

• 1:02:25Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. And I'm interested in the stuff that you're doing on college campuses. What does that look like specifically?

• 1:02:31Speaker 01

  Well, we just finished designing, we have our first booklet on carnism, and we're actually going to distribute the first batch through Farm, Farm Animal Rights Movement, with their pay-per-view and look at what people's response is, try to get like some really preliminary metrics and how people respond to this booklet. And then we're going to do basically what Vegan Outreach has done on college campuses, and we're going to start in Germany, because our offices are, we're a US organization, a 501(c)(3), so all donations are tax deductible. And we are based here in the US, and we have offices in Berlin, Germany, where I live. And so we're going to start our campus outreach program, basically saturating college campuses

• 1:03:15Speaker 01

  with leaflets, start a leafleting program, and ideally a speaking program.

• 1:03:20Rich Roll?

  Old school.

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, yes and no. I mean, the beauty of leaflets is that they're very, very cost-effective, and the studies that have been done on leaflets has shown that they actually have a pretty significant impact, and they're not that, they're not expensive to produce. I mean, once you've produced them.

• 1:03:37Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:03:38Speaker 01

  So, and anybody can get involved. So, but we have a number of other campaigns and programs that we're running as well, and people who are interested can get information at carnism.org.

• 1:03:47Rich Roll?

  Very cool. So, where do you fall on the optimistic-pessimistic spectrum? Like, do you, like, there's a lot of work that has to be done.

• 1:03:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Rich Roll?

  We're kind of running out of time with the... Ecological crisis that we're in, we're slaughtering, what is it like, 1.2 billion animals?

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  Every week.

• 1:04:08Rich Roll?

  A week, which is insane. The numbers are staggering.

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  They are.

• 1:04:14Rich Roll?

  The movement has picked up a lot of steam, there's a lot of interest. It's never been, you know, more, you know, acceptable and like, cool to like, explore this.

• 1:04:26Rich Roll?

  Are you encouraged by what's going on? Are you discouraged?

• 1:04:30Speaker 01

  Well, I have a privileged position that I'm in, where I do travel all over the world and meet with people in positions of leadership in the vegan movement all over the world and get their, you know, perspective on what's happening in their country. And, um, so I'm constantly hearing these amazing success stories of the vegan movement and organizations around the world. And I'm also pretty consistently seeing the response of the meat-eating public, at least to the work that we're doing, which is extremely, extremely inspiring. And maybe even more importantly, from a psychological perspective, you know, as a psychologist and somebody who has studied social transformation and social change.

• 1:05:08Speaker 01

  You know, we can see that carnism, because it's structured like other isms, um, you know, the mentality is the same. Carnism is starting to follow the trajectory or the, the, the direction that the other isms have, have, um, gone in. When a behavior becomes a choice, it's, and is no longer a necessity or perceived as a necessity, it takes on an ethical dimension it didn't have in quite the same way before. Oppressive systems and regimes have historically relied on making the public believe that, you know, their oppressive actions or violent actions were necessary for the preservation of the race, or the preservation of the species, or the country, or what, you know, what have you.

• 1:05:51Speaker 01

  And so, you know, once we take out that necessity component argument, then suddenly we see the rise of the social justice movement that has challenged that oppressive system in practice. And that's what we're seeing with veganism today and carnism. I have- Absolutely no doubt, from a psychological and a sociological perspective, no doubt whatsoever, that at some point in time, veganism will replace carnism as the dominant ideology. It's just not logical to think otherwise, from where I stand. I could be wrong, but that's, you know, my professional opinion, I guess I could say, so...

• 1:06:29Rich Roll?

  Well, we're gonna have to be anyway, because we're running out of land and resources to continue to do it the way that we have been doing it, right? Beautiful, well, that's a great place, I think, to kind of round it out and land this plane, but I think I want to leave people with one last question, which is, if somebody's listening to this, they're intrigued by, you know, what you have to say, perhaps these are new ideas to them, they're plant curious, you know, they think they want to make a change, like, what kind of recommendations or advice do you give to that person to encourage them, you know, learning more and perhaps changing habit or two?

• 1:07:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, learning more is really important. Getting informed, the information is out there. At carnism.org, we have resources for people regardless of where they fall on the carnism/veganism continuum, and we also have some resources for people who are wanting to change their diet and lifestyle, you know, so reducing and ultimately eliminating ideally, once consumption of meat, eggs, and dairy is obviously a great way to be part of the solution, but even simply reducing is a great step. And then thinking about how else you can not only get informed, but once you become informed, I should say, become an active participant in raising awareness of carnism and veganism, and being an active part of this solution in a way that works for you.

• 1:07:48Speaker 01

  And so, we do have a number of recommendations on our website for how people can get involved in a way that works for them.

• 1:07:54Rich Roll?

  Fantastic. Well, I'm really inspired by your work. I appreciate your level of advocacy and your passion. It's inspiring, and I hope that you continue to do what you do, and I appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today, Melanie.

• 1:08:09Speaker 01

  Well, thank you, and thank you for all that you're doing, too, reaching so many people and opening hearts and minds.

• 1:08:14Rich Roll?

  Doing my little part, doing my little part. Cool, so... The best place to connect with you, karnism.org is the destination, right? You're on Facebook. You're not really on Twitter. I looked at your Twitter. You haven't tweeted since 2014.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  And we're working on changing that.

• 1:08:31Rich Roll?

  Right. But people should definitely check out your TED Talk. It's from 2015, right? TEDx Munich. It's fantastic. It's got like almost a half a million views at this point. So that's a wild success. Congrats on that. And are you, do you do public speaking that's open to people coming and checking you out? Is there a calendar on your website if people want to try to connect with you in person?

• 1:08:55Speaker 01

  There's not a calendar on the website at the moment because we're revising our current calendar. But I do do quite a bit of public speaking. I'm not going to be doing any public speaking in the US for the rest of the year, but I expect to be back in 2017.

• 1:09:11Rich Roll?

  There's a lot of European listeners, though.

• 1:09:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'll be in Lithuania, Norway, and we'll have it on Facebook. On the Beyond Carnism Facebook page, we'll be posting these, but not until, starting in October. And South Africa.

• 1:09:28Rich Roll?

  Awesome.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  Argentina and Brazil. And I think that's what we've got lined up for the rest of the year.

• 1:09:32Rich Roll?

  Thanks for doing this.

• 1:09:34Speaker 01

  Thank you so much.

• 1:09:35Rich Roll?

  It's a pleasure to talk to you.

• 1:09:36Speaker 01

  You too.

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  Peace. Blatz.

• 1:09:46Rich Roll?

  All right, we did it. Hope you guys enjoyed that. Hopefully Dr. Joy gave you more than a few things to ponder. As always, please make a point of checking out the show notes on the episode page for this episode at richroll.com. I've got tons of links and resources to take your infotainment and your education beyond the earbuds. Once again, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter. In addition to weekly podcast updates, you'll also get exclusive access to Roll Call. It's my short, free email blast that goes out every Thursday with just a few instructive recommendations and resources. Stuff I've discovered, enjoyed, and found helpful. No spam. You can sign up for it at richroll.com. Also, thought I'd mention that I've got a few online courses if you're into that

• 1:10:29Rich Roll?

  kind of thing. The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition, all about how to dial up your plate with plants. My second course is called The Art of Living with Purpose. It's all about goal-setting and achieving. And my third course, my most recent one, is called How to Build a Conscious Relationship, which is, of course, about relationships. And you can find all those courses at mindbodygreen.com. Click on the word Classes in the upper left-hand corner of the homepage, and you can search for them there. They're really great. I'm really proud of them. Hopefully, you will find them helpful. What else? Go to richroll.com for all your Plant Power merch and schwag needs. I've got signed copies of Finding Ultra and The Plant Power Way. I will sign it with whatever inscription you would like

• 1:11:11Rich Roll?

  if you purchase it through our site. We also have cool Plant Power t-shirts and tech tees, all kinds of, you know, cool schwag and merch to fly your Plant Power allegiance. I want to thank everybody who helped put on today's show. Jason Camiolo, as always, for audio engineering and production. Shawn Patterson for all his help on graphics. Chris Swan for production assistance in helping compile the show notes. And theme music, as always, by Anna Lima. Thanks for all the support, you guys. I love you. And here's my final thought. If you're still listening to this podcast, whether you are a longtime vegan or an ardent omnivore, I want you to approach your next meal with a heightened sense of awareness and mindfulness. Where did this food on my plate come from? What

• 1:11:56Rich Roll?

  went into bringing it to me? And why am I eating it? Does it reflect my values? Does it reflect the words that come out of my mouth? Do my actions align with what I believe? Our plate is political. It's a vote for what we believe about the world, how it is and how we would like it to be. So I simply want you to consider that perhaps a little bit more deeply this week.

• 1:12:22Rich Roll?

  And I'll see you go soon. Peace. Plants.