Vinnie Tortorich Returns

Buckle up! Back by popular demand, the controversial and outspoken Vinnie Tortorich — “America's Angriest Trainer” and my favorite guy to ride a bike with — returns to the podcast as my first repeat guest so we can throw down and get to the bottom — for the very first time — of what constitues the most ideal diet. Is it “low carb” (Vinnie)? Or “plant-based” (Rich)? Maybe something in between or alternatively something else entirely? There can only be one winner in this argument, right? Tune in to find out. And we'll let you be the judge. Whether or not you end up with some greater conviction or just more confused, only you can say. At a minimum, and wherever you come down on the debate, you will feel moved by Vinnie's frankness about his past & continuing battle with leukemia. At one point in the interview, Vinnie makes the very controversial statement that there is no correlation between dietary fat and cardiovascular disease. Just so we are clear, I do not share this view. Give me an opportunity to dig into the research a bit more thoroughly and I will return to the blog and/or podcast with my supported findings. NOTE: Despite my admonishments after his last tour on the show about keeping it all family friendly, Vinnie couldn't help himself and went off script with a few explicit lapses of the tongue. Nothing crazy, but just a heads up if you're blasting it at work or happen to be unusually squeamish. Apologies, but give him a break — he is, after all, America's Angriest Trainer and has a reputation to maintain. Thanks for the support and enjoy the show! SHOW NOTES Wikipedia: Saturated Fat & Cardiovascular Disease Controversy The Angriest Trainer Podcast VinnieTortorich.com Vinnie on Twitter @VinnieTortorich Vinnie on Facebook Ben Greenfield's “Become Superhuman” Conference, March 8-9. 2013 Spokane, WA – use the code “RICHROLL” to get 50% off the $297 registration price. Click HERE to learn more, see the list of speakers and sign up. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Rich Roll?

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• 0:46Rich Roll?

  For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:08Speaker 01

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Say hi. Do your whole thing while I sip on this coffee.

• 1:13Rich Roll?

  All right. There is no whole thing, man. It's just, it's The Vinnie Show. You just roll right into it.

• 1:18Speaker 01

  You know, I, I listen, I listen to you. I listen to your podcast.

• 1:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:24Speaker 01

  Because it's the only way I get to see you or hear you.

• 1:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:27Speaker 01

  Feel like I'm having a relationship.

• 1:28Rich Roll?

  We used to, we used to have an in-person relationship on the bike, but that has not existed for a while.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  And computers have taken that away from us.

• 1:35Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 1:36Speaker 01

  Even though, as the crow flies, we don't live that far apart.

• 1:39Rich Roll?

  Not at all.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  What, three miles?

• 1:41Rich Roll?

  No, not even.

• 1:42Speaker 01

  I mean, right over that hill is where I live.

• 1:45Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:46Speaker 01

  We never see each other, except when we come in here and you turn on the lights.

• 1:49Rich Roll?

  I run into you at Starbucks.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, we see each other at Starbucks.

• 1:52Rich Roll?

  I know. It's a crying shame.

• 1:54Speaker 01

  But what I heard on my way here, I was listening to you on the podcast, because I love your podcast. See, I'm a vegan at heart.

• 2:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you are. You're like Macca. Macca, Chris McCormick, says, "Think vegan, think vegan," you know, but then he goes to a restaurant, he doesn't order vegan. He goes, he told me that he, he originally said, "Yeah, I'm really into this vegan thing. I wash forks over knives. I'm super into it. I think vegan. And when I go to restaurants, I eat vegan, but when I go, only when I eat out." And then we went out to breakfast after a swim workout, and he ordered bacon and eggs. So I guess that was out there. And he said, "No, but I'm thinking about being vegan."

• 2:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, as long as you think vegan, you're there. It's kind of, what was that phrase in, in that movie, "Breathe through your eyes"?

• 2:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:39Speaker 01

  Which movie was that? It was a baseball movie with Susan Sarandon.

• 2:44Rich Roll?

  Field of Dreams?

• 2:45Speaker 01

  No.

• 2:45Rich Roll?

  Oh, no, the other one with Tim Robbins.

• 2:47Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:48Speaker 01

  "Breathe through your eyes."

• 2:48Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:49Speaker 01

  You know, it's like, "Think vegan."

• 2:58Speaker 01

  As a matter of fact, you know, it's almost like we're in a divorce, because there are people who are going, "Well, I'm torn between you and Rich."

• 3:07Rich Roll?

  Well, I got a

• 3:07Speaker 01

  "What's my shit on this?"

• 3:08Rich Roll?

  I know, I know. Well, I've gotten some emails over the past couple of days. "I'm confused. You know, you're saying one thing, Vinny says another thing, Ben Greenfield says something else."

• 3:18Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:18Rich Roll?

  I had Tim Van Orden on, who's a, who's a raw vegan runner, who's done really, really well. So he's taking it to a whole different level. And then people are in some sort of tailspin over the whole thing.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And hopefully today, we could clear some of that up in between talking about everything else. Let me see if I can find this while we're talking.

• 3:37Rich Roll?

  There were a couple tweets.

• 3:38Speaker 01

  There was a Facebook thing. I didn't bring my glasses in here, but the guy's name is Lon Lomas, and he follows us, I think tweet-wise, but he also writes to me. Should have really brought my glasses in.

• 3:51Rich Roll?

  Here, let me hold it. Let me see if I can read it.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  Read that email there, the last one.

• 3:57Rich Roll?

  I listened to your advice like gospel. Rich R. is talking with MMA guy says ketosis is bad and dangerous. I know you guys are chatting soon. Could you two go over this? I'd like to find a life fuel plan that strikes a healthy balance. I'm sure you guys have plenty to chat about. Thanks for everything.

• 4:16Speaker 01

  So I thought that was a good kicking off. I read that on the way here because that's what I do when I drive. I retweets. I mean, that's how you drive in LA.

• 4:26Rich Roll?

  Shame on you.

• 4:27Speaker 01

  No, I read it when I was getting this coffee at Starbucks. But that's an interesting question. First of all, who's the MMA guy?

• 4:35Rich Roll?

  I had, his name is James Wilks, James Lightning Wilks, and he was a champion of the Ultimate Fighter, season nine, that reality show.

• 4:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:46Rich Roll?

  He's now retired. He had like a vertebrae injury, so he doesn't compete anymore. But he has a gym in Orange County and he is full on board with the plant-based movement, eats a plant-based diet. He's a very intelligent, articulate guy and he tours around and gives speeches about plant-based diet and is, you know, very knowledgeable about that. But he's, you know, he's all gung ho on the plant-powered movement.

• 5:11Speaker 01

  Is that why he says ketosis is bad? And because a lot of people don't understand.

• 5:15Rich Roll?

  Well, in fairness, I think, in fairness, I think that I was the one who was saying it. And I wasn't saying that it was inherently bad. My, my take on it, based upon what I've read and the way that I understand it, is that ketosis is, and again, I'm not a nutritionist, I'm not a doctor. I've also been getting emails from people saying, you know, don't talk out your ass. So I gotta be careful about that.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Welcome to the podcast.

• 5:39Rich Roll?

  My understanding, and please do your own research on all of this. But the way I understand it is that ketosis is a physiological state that occurs when you're eating a very low carb, higher protein diet that, that is very effective at weight loss, but also puts strain on your kidneys. And in a protracted state of ketosis, it can lead to kidney stones and, you know, kidney, kidney problems. So if you have a different take on that, or you have a different understanding.

• 6:17Speaker 01

  Well, you're about, you're about 60% there. And this is a good time to talk about this.

• 6:23Rich Roll?

  And yeah, because the listen, and the other thing that came up in the interview with James was that the low carb movement, of which you are a very avid subscriber to, and the paleo movement, they have the microphone right now, they have the stage, this is the most popular diet, and people are curious about it. And of course, I have a different perspective on that, and I adhere to a different way of eating and living. So, you know, here we are, sitting across from each other, and people think that we're gonna like, you know, punch each other in the face.

• 6:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I said, it's like a divorce.

• 6:55Rich Roll?

  Somebody's gonna be, somebody's gonna be a winner, and somebody's gonna be a loser. And, you know, if one person can't come out on top, then, then there's just confusion and.

• 7:04Speaker 01

  Well, let me send your audience to bed right now. We're not gonna solve this today. Good night, everybody. And Rich, I'll see you later.

• 7:11Rich Roll?

  Podcast over.

• 7:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, done. Because this won't be settled here, nor will it probably ever be settled.

• 7:18Rich Roll?

  Well, and this is why there's hundreds of diet books that come out every year.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  And it increases the confusion even more. Let me address what you said earlier about, first off, ketosis gets a bad rap, just all the way around, from a lot of people. Years ago, it got a really bad rap. And the reason being is there's something called ketoacidosis. And what that is, is, you know, it's a medical condition. People end up in ketoacidosis when, for different reasons. If you have diabetes, people who, like the Karen Carpenters of the world, who died from starvation, from, you know, they, she had a different problem. She was a, why is this term?

• 8:06Rich Roll?

  Anorexic.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  Anorexic. Those people run into trouble because their bodies are literally eating themselves. Dietary ketosis is a lot different. I talked about this on the Angriest Trainer podcast a couple of weeks ago. I'm not so much a low carb guy, but what I adhere to is pretty low carb. And let me explain that, and then I'm gonna bring it full circle.

• 8:34Speaker 01

  I believe in no sugars and no grains. The more you can stay away from sugar, you know, meaning granular sugar, like just sugar, not the sugar you find in fruit and vegetables, unless you're squeezing it out.

• 8:49Speaker 01

  But the more you can stay away from sugars, the more you can stay away from grains, the less problems you have as a human being.

• 8:57Speaker 01

  Just trying to live through life. You're not going to gain weight. You're not going to have, you're not going to have all of the, you know, the inflammation that your body can have.

• 9:08Rich Roll?

  And even if all you did was get rid of soda and processed foods, which contain all the refined grains.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 9:16Rich Roll?

  You're more than halfway there, I would say.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  You won't be fat. If you were fat and you still do that, you won't be fat anymore. As simple as that. But we're talking about, you know, my podcast went off the deep end right around, we're at 90 or 95. I don't know where we are, but somewhere in the 50s,

• 9:34Speaker 01

  something happened and I started talking about ketosis because as you know, that's the way I live. And I always stayed away from that. I didn't really talk about it in my book. That's still not out. And I didn't talk about it on the podcast a whole hell of a lot, but I was out it on the podcast. And I started talking about it. So then I became...

• 9:54Rich Roll?

  Outed me? You went over the deep end and you were outed in what way? You mean you got grief or you got feedback?

• 9:59Speaker 01

  No, I had a guest on who is an actress, who uses me to lose weight when she has to lose a ton of weight to be on, on TV shows and movies. And she was doing a movie with Minnie Driver and she got, and she talked about how I put people into ketosis and I was out it. I do that as a profession and I do it in a professional way. And that's when we started talking about it. And that's when the whole, hey, you're one of those ketosis guys came out.

• 10:32Rich Roll?

  And I think just to backtrack, ketosis really became a key word or a catchphrase when Atkins had its ascendancy in the mid 90s, really, right? I mean, that's when, nobody had really heard of ketosis until Atkins, the Atkins diet craze.

• 10:47Speaker 01

  He was talking about it back in the 70s.

• 10:48Rich Roll?

  Right, but Atkins didn't take hold until later.

• 10:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, it well, it took hold, it fell off and it took hold. He keeps taking hold. And there's a reason for that.

• 10:57Rich Roll?

  He meaning who?

• 10:59Speaker 01

  His diet. The Atkins style diet, which by the way, I have some problems with also.

• 11:04Rich Roll?

  I hope so.

• 11:05Speaker 01

  I have problems with everything. Um, but here's the thing. When I started talking about ketosis, I kept telling people, listen, I'm not telling you to go into ketosis unless there's something you really want to do. You really want to read up on it. You really want to, you know, figure it out. But just like most athletes who want to do everything to the nth degree. I've started getting tons and tons of questions. So I've started going deeper and deeper. So now my show is about two things. For the normal people, it's about no sugars and no grains. For the real wackos who want to take it to that almost biohacking style form. I have the, okay, you could go into ketosis. And I talked about this a few shows ago.

• 11:48Speaker 01

  I mentioned that it's not good to go in and out because people going, well, I was in ketosis and now I'm out. So I need to go back in again and now I'm out. That's not a good idea at all. Because when your body is going into ketosis for those first couple of weeks. Your body creates more acid.

• 12:07Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  And that's where the problem starts, where people start with the kidney stones.

• 12:11Rich Roll?

  Right. Because when you are, when, when you're in, in an acidic state, when your blood pH is on the acidic side, your body has to go into hyperdrive to bring it back to a more neutral state, which is your natural state. And in order to do that, generally, my understanding is that it then resorts to leaching minerals out of your bones, which is why we, which brings up the osteoporosis issue and the kidney stones and the like. So we're talking about, essentially what you're saying is it's the difference between long-term sustainable wellness and a performance gain. If you want to lose weight, ketosis, there's no question that ketosis is very effective at that.

• 12:56Rich Roll?

  But as a solution to long-term wellness. I mean, personally, it's not something that I could recommend.

• 13:03Speaker 01

  Well. I, I recommend it to people who want to stay in it. I stay in it.

• 13:12Speaker 01

  And I, I do it for different reasons, by the way. Before I had cancer.

• 13:17Rich Roll?

  And that's something we haven't even talked about.

• 13:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, we didn't get it.

• 13:19Rich Roll?

  If you're comfortable talking about it, I'd love to, I'd love to talk about that.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  But before cancer, I, I ate sugar like there was no tomorrow. Whenever I could get away with the sugar, I would eat it. I was still a no sugar, no grain guy, but if a dessert was around and it was a special treat, I would have sugar. I love sugar. Post-cancer, I live in ketosis because there's just too many studies out there that shows that, you know, by the way, my cancer's gonna come back, but when it comes back is pretty much up to me. The more sugar you eat, the more chances you're giving yourself to have that, that cancer grow. And I'm not interested in going back on chemo one second before I have to. That's the main reason I live in ketosis.

• 14:03Speaker 01

  What I found was that being ketosis allows me to exercise for hours on end without needing any additional food, just running off of my own fat. And that's when I got into the whole, wow, you can actually exercise this way and do well this way. But still, I want to go back to what, what we were saying before, just for a second. If you're in ketosis and you want to stay in ketosis, that's fine. Going in and out can cause problems. It causes your body to create too much acid. It causes inflammation, the same kind of inflammation you could get from too much sugar. It becomes that too much of anything is bad.

• 14:41Speaker 01

  But if you stay in ketosis, all of that levels out and you're, it's just like your body runs just normal.

• 14:49Rich Roll?

  What about the bad breath and the, all of these sort of long-term issues that I've read about that, that come up?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Ketoacidosis gives you the bad breath.

• 14:58Rich Roll?

  So what's the difference between ketosis and ketoacidosis, though? I mean, if you're, if you're in a perpetual state of ketosis, isn't that?

• 15:07Rich Roll?

  The same thing as ketoacidosis?

• 15:08Speaker 01

  No, no, it's different. It's a different form of ketosis. Um, I don't, I don't know the scientific terms to explain it. Um, I just don't. Um, it's been explained to me 20 different ways.

• 15:21Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 15:21Speaker 01

  And I still don't get it, but there's a physiological difference. And I wish I could explain it, but I don't want to give wrong information here.

• 15:29Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, and I don't know the answer either, but I would implore everybody who's listening to, to do their own research because I think it is, it's not something to entertain lightly. It's something that you want to really understand before you get into it.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, don't just jump in.

• 15:43Rich Roll?

  And again, Vinny and I are on different sides of the table on this. I mean, my perspective, just to be clear, uh, is, you know, all I know, and this is rooted in my own personal experience, and I only speak from my personal experience, but when I'm eating a well-rounded, whole food, plant-based diet, uh, not only do I perform well, train well, race well, and feel good, you know, not, not all the time, I'm a human being, but you know, in the balance of the equation, I feel really good and better than I used to. Uh, I don't have to worry about these kinds of things. I don't have to worry about, uh, I don't get caught up in ratios of carbs to fat and I don't have to run a mental calculus

• 16:25Rich Roll?

  when I'm eating of, of this or that. And, you know, I don't overdo it on fruits, but I don't avoid them either. Uh, and, and basically when I'm eating clean like that, my body sort of just functions well. And I don't have to get super scientific and biohacking about the whole equation.

• 16:45Speaker 01

  See, I think that's something you and I agree on. Um, you know, you had Ben on your show, Ben Greenfield, and I had him on my show, but you know, as a matter of fact, his show is out right now today. Uh, I had him on about a week ago and, you know.

• 16:58Rich Roll?

  And by the way, his, his conference is coming up in Spokane.

• 17:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:03Rich Roll?

  I don't know the dates offhand, but, uh.

• 17:05Speaker 01

  He invited me to that.

• 17:06Rich Roll?

  Oh, he did?

• 17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:07Rich Roll?

  To be a speaker?

• 17:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:08Rich Roll?

  Oh, you didn't invite me.

• 17:11Speaker 01

  I guess he likes me more.

• 17:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Uh, but you can get, uh, 50% off if you go to the website for it and use the code richroll. I think it's, uh, superhuman.

• 17:22Speaker 01

  I can't remember.

• 17:23Rich Roll?

  I'll put it in the show. I'll put the link in the show notes, but, um, or rebate if you're interested in in the era and want to attend. I think it's in early March and he's got a pretty cool speaker lineup.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah. He, he's the, I think Dave, uh, Dave Asprey is going to be there also.

• 17:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah.

• 17:37Speaker 01

  The biohacker.

• 17:37Rich Roll?

  I heard him on Joe Rogan. He was interesting.

• 17:39Speaker 01

  He's coming on my show. Uh, we're, we're trying to figure out a date when we can both be, you know, when he can be on the phone and I can be in the studio. Um, you know, the biohacking guys is really interesting what they're doing, but I think you and I, if we can't agree on, on a particular diet, we agree that you don't have to sit there and trick your body into, you know, I think it's interesting what they're doing, but I, I just, it just seems like a waste of a whole day.

• 18:04Rich Roll?

  Well, also, yeah, I want to live my life, you know, and my, and yes, I'm very interested in health and nutrition, and that's the predominant subject matter of this podcast. But, you know, I have a life outside of this and I don't want to be spending every waking moment of my day thinking about, you know, the proportion of this and that in, in my food and what that's going to do. Like, I just want to live my life. And when I'm eating clean and when I'm eating, you know, a whole food, plant-based diet, it takes care of itself. And I think that then I don't have to, you know, I'm not going to get out the test tubes and, and be doing all that. And that's great that Dave does that and guys like Tim Ferriss and all of that. And, you know, we can learn from their experience in, in that regard, but that's not my life.

• 18:50Speaker 01

  And, you know, like we're talking, you're just having been on the show and, uh, I'm sure it's going to be the same when Dave comes on. By the way, I love Dave's coffee.

• 18:57Rich Roll?

  The bulletproof coffee.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, the bulletproof coffee.

• 19:00Rich Roll?

  So what's, I heard him talk about it on Joe and Joe, Joe Rogan talks about it as well. Does it come with the, the butter in it or do you add that?

• 19:07Speaker 01

  No, you, as a matter of fact, I don't buy his coffee. You know, because it's just so damn expensive.

• 19:12Rich Roll?

  Right. And for the listener, he has this product called Bulletproof Coffee and he speaks intelligently about, I think it's called microtoxins.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 19:24Rich Roll?

  The my- the mycotoxins or the microtoxins, I'm not sure which one.

• 19:27Speaker 01

  I think it's mycotoxins.

• 19:29Rich Roll?

  Mycotoxins, yeah. And essentially, these sort of fungi, fungi mold that grows not just on coffee, but I think a lot of the foods that we eat and how that interferes with our digestive systems and the optimal functioning of our bodies. And apparently, his coffee beans are mycotoxin-free and as a result of that, it's a clean, you know, it's better for your body or whatever, if you're a coffee drinker.

• 19:56Speaker 01

  But you better have some money in your pocket because it's like $18 for 12 ounces. Yeah, of course, yeah. And, you know, he says, you know, he even puts an ad on his site. He goes, "It's only $2 more than Starbucks, but no, Starbucks charges you $12 for the whole pound and he's charging you $18 for like 12 or 13 ounces or so. It's significantly more money."

• 20:20Speaker 01

  But I'll give the recipe because as a matter of fact, I had a Bulletproof Coffee this morning or most people call it fat coffee on the internet.

• 20:28Rich Roll?

  Right. You put coconut oil in it or grass-fed butter or something like that?

• 20:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, you put grass-fed butter. Again, you know.

• 20:36Rich Roll?

  This is a, you know, have fat in the morning, be a fat-burning ketosis machine.

• 20:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 20:41Rich Roll?

  Buy any torterich.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  And by the way, it works. Do I have the Bulletproof Coffee every morning? No.

• 20:47Rich Roll?

  By works, what do you mean works?

• 20:49Speaker 01

  You can drink that, like if I drink a fat coffee at 5:00 in the morning, I don't have to eat again until 1:00 in the afternoon.

• 20:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah. How many calories, how many calories is in that butter or coconut oil that you put in there?

• 21:03Speaker 01

  I'll tell you what's in it. You have, you have coffee, like a mug and a half of coffee, you put your Vitamix, you add literally three or four ounces of butter, like almost a stick of butter. And then you add on top of that, a medium chain triglyceride. If you don't have an MCT oil, you can use coconut oil. I prefer the coconut oil because it gives it a little bit of a different flavor. It's kind of nutty. And on top of that, you know, you can throw a little, I throw a little cinnamon in it. For taste and also cinnamon, you know, tends to even out your blood sugar. But you can sip that all morning long, or drink it all at once, and you're not going to be hungry because you have a ton of calories in your system.

• 21:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, to be clear, you're putting a stick of butter in your coffee in the morning. I mean, this is a, you know, is this really, when you're speaking to an audience of people that are trying to improve their health, maybe lose weight, and we have a society in which 600,000 people suffer a heart attack every year, to me, and this is just me personally, it sounds irresponsible to advise somebody to put a whole ton of butter in their coffee in the morning to start their day.

• 22:17Speaker 01

  Right.

• 22:17Rich Roll?

  Like, I just can't get behind that.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  The problem with, with the media and what's out there is that we don't get heart disease from cholesterol. We get it from hardening of the arteries. The cholesterol is just a final thing that goes through the blood that clogs the artery.

• 22:31Rich Roll?

  But you cannot get around the fact that the extent of saturated fat and chemicals in our food and all the like are contributing to heart disease. I mean, it's not-

• 22:44Speaker 01

  Not at all.

• 22:45Rich Roll?

  I see, this is where-

• 22:46Speaker 01

  See, that's where we disagree. You know, there's just no, and as a matter of fact, the heart community is coming around to that now. That, you know, look, before the 1970s, we didn't even have stats.

• 22:57Rich Roll?

  Well, here, here's what I would say. Let me just, let me just back it up with this. That if you are going to adhere to a very strict Vinny Tortorich type diet, or Dave Asprey type diet, or low carb, and you are going to get rid of all the sugars and all the grains, and avoid the processed foods, et cetera, et cetera, you know, again, I'm not a cardiologist, I'm not a research scientist, you know, I think that the studies differ on this, that-

• 23:31Rich Roll?

  There's a possibility for you to be healthy, I suppose. I mean, you seem healthy and you advocate this and there are plenty of others that do. The problem comes in when the average person who's not going to do this 100% or is going to have the cheat days where they're eating ice cream and other types of unhealthy foods.

• 23:49Speaker 01

  Sure, sure.

• 23:50Rich Roll?

  Here's the message that it's great to eat bacon for breakfast and put a stick of butter in your coffee and have a huge omelet with cheese and go about your day and it's not going to have any ill effect on your heart. And I think that that is hugely problematic when we have a culture that is mired in, you know, we're sicker than we ever have been and it's getting worse.

• 24:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:13Rich Roll?

  And that message makes me, you know, it literally, it, I just find it irresponsible.

• 24:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's not irresponsible in that, you know, if you go back to the thing that's causing all the problems, the grains, you know, grains cause more problems.

• 24:33Rich Roll?

  So you're saying that heart disease, that what is contributing to the 600,000 heart attacks a year in your opinion?

• 24:40Speaker 01

  Well, it's certainly not cholesterol because cholesterol is a fat and that's not going to make your arteries harden. What does make your arteries harden is plaque and that plaque is caused by sugars and grains. That's not me speaking, that's just how the body works. And once you have a, the plaque buildup in the artery, now you have a real problem. So the cholesterol, the fat lipid of the cholesterol can't pass through anymore. That's why cholesterol gets a bad rap.

• 25:08Rich Roll?

  So then why in your opinion?

• 25:09Speaker 01

  And by the way.

• 25:10Rich Roll?

  So, so, all right, look, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to get creamed if we don't like explore this a little bit further.

• 25:17Speaker 01

  No, no, I won't.

• 25:18Rich Roll?

  So.

• 25:19Speaker 01

  And by the way, I'm not a doctor.

• 25:20Rich Roll?

  Right, I know. Neither of us are doctors. So please, you know, I implore you to, to read up on this yourself. But I will say this. Dr. Esselstyn, who wrote Prevent and Revert, Reverse Heart Disease, has established and

• 25:36Rich Roll?

  Over 30 years of research that not only can he prevent heart attacks on a whole food, plant-based diet, that he can actually reverse heart disease when people adopt his protocol, but it only works when they're on an extremely low-fat, whole-food, plant-based diet, when they're eating coconut oil and avocados and nuts and the like. He didn't see the reversals. And these reversals are established in these angiograms where he actually has pictures of before and after pictures of people's hearts. And you can see the clogged arteries before, and you can see the healthy arteries afterwards. And he's been doing this since the 70s. And he would tell you that there is a significant

• 26:20Rich Roll?

  link between the amount of fat that you're taking into your diet and its impact on cardiac disease.

• 26:27Speaker 01

  And then you could find the same amount of doctors who will tell you exactly the opposite. So then you have to wonder where the truth lies.

• 26:36Rich Roll?

  Well, then I look at the authors of some of these books, like Lauren Cordain, and like Dr. Atkins, and other people who they don't look that good. They look a little, they don't look that healthy. So maybe they're not taking their own advice?

• 26:54Speaker 01

  Yeah, in some cases, that's, that's actually the case. Now, I will agree with this, because as you know, I'm a vegan at heart. And by the way, before we go on to this, when I'm not drinking, I don't drink fat coffee every morning. Usually I have what's called my fat shake, which is filled with spinach, chard, kale, all mixed into a Vitamix with a ton of coconut oil. That's, that's my fat shake every morning. And I always also put some raspberries and berries in general.

• 27:27Rich Roll?

  Right. So in other words, you're not saying, don't eat vegetables.

• 27:30Speaker 01

  Oh, God, no.

• 27:31Rich Roll?

  Don't eat fruit.

• 27:32Speaker 01

  God, no. Just now, I had a huge salad, and I'm gonna have another huge salad before I eat a steak tonight.

• 27:38Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 27:39Speaker 01

  I think that's one of the biggest misconceptions about low-carb people. They think that we sit around with a big slab of beef all day and eating tons of butter. But the point I wanted to get to is that that's the way I actually eat. When I'm not having a bulletproof style coffee for breakfast, I'm eating my fat shake. Or I'll have bacon and eggs. Usually it's egg because I don't have time to make bacon in the morning. It's 4:30, I'm bleary eyed. I'll just eat a bunch of eggs cooked in butter and leave the house that way if I'm not having a fat shake.

• 28:13Speaker 01

  But I think what happens is when a doctor comes out with a study like this that says, look, I can show the reversal by eating cleanly, by eating nuts, by eating coconut oil, by eating a ton of vegetables. I agree with that because when you take someone off of all of the preservatives, the stuff that's causing the problem, partially hydrogenated or hydrogenated oils, which is a huge problem, all of the coloring we put in food, all the processing we do to food. Once you get rid of that, it doesn't matter if you're a fat eater or a vegan eater. It pretty much doesn't matter. The problem just by eating cleanly, pretty much goes away.

• 28:52Speaker 01

  So you can probably show either way that this problem is fixed if you can have a double-blind study with people eating cleanly and people eating just the way they want to eat.

• 29:02Rich Roll?

  But to my knowledge, the only person who's been, who has been successful in establishing a pattern and a methodology to actually reverse heart disease is Dr. Russellston.

• 29:17Speaker 01

  I can't speak to it because I just don't know.

• 29:19Rich Roll?

  Right, and then you have, and diabetes is the same thing. Dr. Neil Barnard is, I think his book just came out or it's about to come out on, or no, actually he, no, this book came out earlier on reversing diabetes on a plant-based diet too. So I don't know.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  And again, you can definitely reverse the problem on a plant-based diet. I think drinking a lot of reverse type 2 diabetes on a plant-based diet. But if you're having too many sugars in that plant-based diet, you're going to have problems. In other words, if, we talked about this in the last show, or maybe I talked about it on my show.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  If you squeeze the juice out and you don't leave the fiber in. In other words, if you go to a Juicy Ladies or you have a, you know, a machine at home that squeezes the juice out. Yeah, you're getting all the phytonutrients, but you're also getting just a big spike of sugar onto your liver, which can cause an insulin response. And as we know, the only way to get diabetes is when you keep getting an insulin response over and over and over to where your body doesn't respond anymore.

• 30:29Rich Roll?

  Sure. I mean, I, you know, I would agree that, you know, if you're juicing a lot, that you're getting a lot of sugar. But I don't know that I've ever heard of anybody who's contracted type 2 diabetes because they were juicing all the time.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  There was a study out just recently. No, that was a recent study where they were showing vegans or vegetarian. I don't know if it was vegetarians or vegans. And there is a big distinction where they were showing problems.

• 30:55Rich Roll?

  Well, there's unhealthy vegans too. It's like vegan, that can mean a lot of different things. So.

• 30:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. So, you know, the, the problem lies somewhere in between. And again, we're not scientists. We're just two guys sitting in, you know, Mulholland Highway, talking, we shouldn't say where you are.

• 31:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was not good.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 31:12Rich Roll?

  I'll beep it out.

• 31:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:14Rich Roll?

  We're just two guys sitting in a garage right now.

• 31:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, sitting in Southern California.

• 31:21Rich Roll?

  Two guys, we're just two guys that like to ride our bike and like to feel good and, and, and maybe are speaking out of school a little bit too much.

• 31:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, because there's too many studies either way. And, and again, that's where the confusion is. You know, it's, you know, people don't know what to do. And you said something earlier that if, you know, if people take the partial message of, oh, Vinny says I have to eat a lot of fat and I'm going to lose weight that way. And they only take the partial message and they keep eating ice cream and they keep eating junk. You're absolutely right, man. They're going to have a big problem.

• 31:53Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, my thing is, how do you create a long-term, sustainable lifestyle, dietary, fitness solution that will work within the construct of your life, understanding that we're all busy, where we don't have to all, you know, turn our kitchens into biohacking laboratories and move on with our lives and be healthy and know that we're doing the right thing for ourself. And I think half-truths and partial messages that get, you know, we're all fallible, we're all human, we make mistakes and doing, you know, nobody does a diet perfectly. And we're in an extraordinary healthcare crisis at the moment.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:36Rich Roll?

  People are more sick than ever. The obesity rates are through the roof. It is ridiculous. And so for me, it's an elementary thing of, look, you know, you want to feel better? Just eat a plant-based diet. It's, it'll solve all your problems. It will help to combat the onset of all of these diseases that are plaguing us unnat unnecessarily. And which are in many ways, foodborne illnesses, food and lifestyle born illnesses.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:03Rich Roll?

  That are easily treatable, reversed, or prevented with proper diet. Right? And then, then we get into all these differences of diet, et cetera. So, you know, we start splitting hairs, but you know, I think that people, people want to hear that it's okay for them to eat bacon and eggs for breakfast. They love it. And that's a big reason why these diets are popular. Because, you know, people are, they want to know that they can do what they like doing and that it's good for them.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  People want to eat something with total impunity. I talk about that in the book a lot. You know, they're always saying to me, what's the one thing that I can just eat all the time? And there is not the one thing you can eat all the time.

• 33:58Speaker 01

  I've found over the years that, you know, when people eat sugar, and I'm not talking about plant-based versus, you know.

• 34:08Rich Roll?

  Processed.

• 34:08Speaker 01

  Processed versus low carb. When people eat sugar, it becomes an addiction. It becomes this, I have some sugar, I want more sugar. Sugar wants sugar. You know, if you didn't eat the candy bar, you won't think about the candy bar. But when you're eating these big, when you're getting these big sugar spikes, you want more of it. So if you have a box of Cracker Jacks at your desk, you know, and you say, well, I'm just going to eat half of it and I'm going to eat the rest later. Well, if it's sitting at your desk, you're going to eat the whole thing. You can't not do it. Very few human beings can stop because once you have that sweet tooth going. Your body's gonna want more and more and more. And since we burn that sugar so

• 34:52Speaker 01

  fast, your body's gonna be craving it. Your brain's now craving it.

• 34:56Rich Roll?

  Right. And that addiction is rooted in, you know, emotions. It's, it's physical, it's mental, it's emotional, and it's biochemical. It has to do with the microbial ecology in your gut. It's very complicated. And this is where I get into my issues with the whole cheat day concept. You know, Tim Ferriss and his slow carb diet says you can have one day a week where you can knock yourself out and eat whatever you want. And for me, and maybe this is my bias, because I kind of approach it or come, come to this from an addiction recovery perspective, because that's my experience, that as long as you

• 35:35Rich Roll?

  have that cheat day, that will continue, you will, you will remain a prisoner to those foods that you crave, because you're never actually breaking that cycle of craving, and you're never really free. So if once a week, you know, you can eat ice cream, or you know, you can eat that one thing that you're not supposed to eat, you're gonna spend the whole week thinking about that until you get that fix, and then waiting another week until you get it again. And if you could just break that cycle and free yourself from that, you might have 10 days of discomfort, but then you'll be free from that craving, and you won't really think about it that much anymore.

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, you, you talk about your alcoholism, because you talked about it in the book. I mean, that would be like telling an alcoholic that once a week, they can drink all they want to drink.

• 36:24Rich Roll?

  Oh, are you kidding?

• 36:25Speaker 01

  You know, I, I know most alcoholics will go, yeah, you know, I can do that.

• 36:28Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 36:29Speaker 01

  Not most, but the ones that could, would. It, you know, it's, it's the same sort of thing, you know, you can't.

• 36:35Rich Roll?

  That would quickly devolve into, you know, into twice a week, and then three times a week, and then 24 hours a day.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  It never ends.

• 36:44Rich Roll?

  And I'd be out in the gutter pretty quick.

• 36:47Speaker 01

  Keep not drinking, man. We like you better like this. I gotta tell you, you're much better. I didn't know you before, but, you know, I have a family member, and it's not, it's not good. You know, here's where I fall off the page with the Tim Ferriss types. And when I say Tim Ferriss, I'm, I'm saying Tim. I'm not saying his types. In, in a weird sort of way, you could throw Ben into that group, and Dave, Dave Asprey.

• 37:15Speaker 01

  I don't believe in trickery. And that's trickery. And that's what I talk about in the book. You see, I don't, I don't look at veganism as being trickery. That's a lifestyle that people can live on. That's why when people, you know, some of your fans listen to my show now and they go, oh, my God, you don't hate vegans. No, I don't.

• 37:34Rich Roll?

  Right. But somebody tweeted me and said that you said on your show that you've never met a healthy vegan.

• 37:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 37:39Rich Roll?

  And the first. I take that personally.

• 37:41Speaker 01

  And they, and the first tweet I got right after that show was, what about Rich Roll? And I didn't even remember saying that in the show. I, I've never gone back to listen.

• 37:49Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  Um, but you know, the bottom line is, is that I don't have a problem with veganism because it's not trickery. It's a lifestyle. Vegetarianism is a lifestyle. Um, but when you have the Tim Ferriss's in the world, you know, his whole deal is how do we, how do we get away with something? You know, four hour work week was that.

• 38:09Rich Roll?

  How do we get 80% of the results with 20% of the work? It's kind of his equation that informs all of his books. It's sort of like, you know, uh, how, how can we achieve most of the results with the least amount of effort or work?

• 38:25Speaker 01

  And he's always been that guy. You, you know how Tim made his first dollar in this business?

• 38:30Rich Roll?

  Supplements.

• 38:31Speaker 01

  He was selling, he was selling a bullshit supplement that if you took it, it was called Brain Quicken. And I think he's divorced himself from that now because he tried to, you know, become more of a, a real thing. But Brain Quicken was a product that he guaranteed, if you took it, will make you smarter. Imagine that you could take a pill and end up on the Mensa list. You know, uh, you know, it was bullshit and he knew it and he's divorced himself from that, I think now. But everything he's done in his life has been exactly what you said. Get 80% of the work done with 20%. Of, you know, trying to do it.

• 39:09Rich Roll?

  And just to be clear, I've gotten a lot out of his books and his Four Hour Work Week book, you know, had plenty of tools that, that I found very helpful and I talked about it in my book too.

• 39:19Speaker 01

  Same here, buddy.

• 39:20Rich Roll?

  I liked, I liked him, you know, so.

• 39:22Speaker 01

  I've never met him.

• 39:22Rich Roll?

  I'm not gonna agree with him and every, no, I've never met him. He, he was, I've had emails back and forth with him and he was very kind to let me post a guest blog post on his blog when my book came out. Uh, and the reason that I was connected with him is when he was writing The Four Hour Body, he was looking for some vegan athletes to talk to and we got introduced and he interviewed me for Four Hour Body. I didn't end up in the book, but that's how I, so, but I've never met him in person. But he's been, he's been cool to me. I have no, I have no problem with him.

• 39:55Speaker 01

  I don't have a beef with him either. As a matter of fact, I go to his website to learn how to push my own book that's coming out.

• 40:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and what's great about him is he's so free with the information that he's learned, whether it's through book publishing or biohacking or whatever it is, you know, 90% of it is freely available on his website. And the same thing, when my book was getting ready to come out, I studied all of his blog posts on how he, you know, the tools that he leveraged to market his book and I found it very, very helpful.

• 40:24Speaker 01

  And by, by the way, same here. Uh, I'm, I'm combing his site because I have that book coming out and, but still with all that, you know, I, I don't believe in shortcuts in life and these guys are offering shortcuts and I, I just fundamentally have a problem with it.

• 40:42Rich Roll?

  To be fair though, don't you think that on, on some level, in all honesty and objectivity, isn't ketosis sort of a shortcut? I mean, it's, it's a way to lose weight, but is it, is it, is it a healthy lifestyle, sustainable lifestyle option?

• 41:00Speaker 01

  You know, before.

• 41:01Rich Roll?

  That's my question, I guess.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  Before I went into ketosis long-term.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  I used to feel like it was trickery, but living, living on ketones, I have no problem with it. I'm able to stay in ketosis, you know, eating all the vegetables I want to eat.

• 41:16Rich Roll?

  Some people, some people can't, I think, I think because you're so sort of, not deficient, that's not the, that's not the right word, but you're eating so little sugars that, that a lot of people, from what I understand, correct me if I'm wrong, start to have these crazy sugar cravings because they're depriving themselves of any sugars and then that leads them out of the diet. So you have guys like, who's the, um, living, living the low carb, living LaVita?

• 41:48Speaker 01

  Jimmy Moore.

• 41:49Rich Roll?

  Jimmy Moore, right? So he's been very open and honest about how his weight fluctuates and that guy, that was a guy who was extremely overweight, lost a ton of weight on a low carb diet, but then kind of goes up and down and fluctuates, right? I mean, is that fair?

• 42:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, he, he does go up and down.

• 42:06Rich Roll?

  So why is this, and he's this huge evangelist of the low carb lifestyle and yet he seems, he seems to have a hard time kind of getting a grip on it in his own life.

• 42:16Speaker 01

  Well, some, some people do, I mean, you know, it's not just the, the physiological effect, there's a psychological effect and people have problems. Uh, I don't know Jimmy well enough. We, we've only talked on the phone several times. I was on his show recently. As a matter of fact, I'm hosting his show in, in April. He's asked me to guest host one of his, uh, Living LaVita Low Carb Shows. Um, I, I don't know how that works, you know, there's a psychological effect and, and speaking to that, you're absolutely correct because, you know, Atkins, you know, we know a lot of people go on Atkins and they'll lose 40 or 50 pounds really fast. Next thing you know, they're off of Atkins and they're weighing.

• 42:56Rich Roll?

  And they rubber band, yeah, they rubber band seriously in the wrong direction afterwards.

• 43:01Speaker 01

  And you're right, i- i- if you take the Tim Ferriss approach, as we were talking about, and you're using something for a quick fix, and you're not willing to do it as a lifestyle, then you have a problem.

• 43:12Rich Roll?

  And I also think that there's a distinction between, I mean, most people go on a diet to lose weight. They're not doing it because they want to have a long-term, healthy lifestyle solution. And so, there's this notion of it being temporary. And it's all about the scale and what that number is. And, and all of the data and kind of criteria for evaluating the success or lack of success of this protocol is based upon how much weight is lost versus, how do you feel? You know, what are the rest of your numbers like? Are you able to sustain this? And when I look at the advocates of a low-fat, plant-based diet, the Neil Barnards of the world, or whatever, they're all very lean and healthy-looking.

• 43:52Speaker 01

  Right.

• 43:52Rich Roll?

  Their weight doesn't go up and down at all. They look the same as they looked 15 years ago.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  And by the way, they're the extremes. Like, I'm the extreme on my side. They're the extreme on their side. But there's a lot of people, we're talking about the people in between. You know, the people who...

• 44:08Rich Roll?

  Are confused.

• 44:09Speaker 01

  One week, they're vegans. The next week, they're low-car people. The next week, they're vegans again. And that's, that's where the, and that's why you and I, sitting across the table from each other, confuses them even more.

• 44:21Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, there's, there's, there's this huge, there's a huge demand for, for guys like you and me to sit across from each other.

• 44:29Speaker 01

  Right.

• 44:30Rich Roll?

  And, and bang this out. And then when we do it, people say, well, now I'm more confused than ever.

• 44:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And that's what happened last time.

• 44:37Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 44:38Speaker 01

  But, by the way, folks, we're not trying to confuse any of you guys. As a matter of fact, I need to bring you back on my show so that my fans can hear you talking about the same conversation.

• 44:48Rich Roll?

  I thought you said you've never met a healthy vegan.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  And we can bring that up.

• 44:52Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  And look at you and go, yeah, I want to do something to that healthy vegan right now.

• 44:56Rich Roll?

  Anytime, anytime, anytime.

• 44:58Speaker 01

  No, we want to have you back on. So, I got to talk to Anna about when we can bring you in. But yeah, that's where, that's where the problem lies. People, people want to hold on to one thing.

• 45:11Rich Roll?

  You know, people want to be member of a team there. Well, I talk about this a lot on the podcast as well. You want to be a member of a team that you can get rah rah behind, that you can cheer behind. And there's a community aspect of that, and that's all very human and understandable. And I get that completely. You know, people just want to be told the straight story. Just tell me, just tell me what it is and I'll do it, you know? And I guess it's not so simple as that. I have my point of view, you have your point of view. We're not, you know, I can convince you of certain things and you can convince me of certain things. But at the end of the day, I'm gonna, tonight, I'm gonna eat the way that I always eat. You're gonna eat the way you always eat. You know what I mean? And we'll go out on a bike ride and we'll, you know, shoot the shit and still have a good time. And I'm good with that.

• 45:55Speaker 01

  And neither diet is correct. I mean, you know, whenever I walk, I'll go over to the commons and I'll sit at King's and I'll start eating. And so, hey, you're eating a salad. It's like, yeah, I eat a ton of veggies. You know, that's, that's where the confusion sets in. Is that people don't understand that you can stay low carb and eat a shitload of veggies.

• 46:15Rich Roll?

  Right. I mean. Let me ask you this, and this will get us into, you know, some new terrain for us. But when I read the China study, I was pretty convinced by this compelling argument that there is a link between animal protein and the onset and growth of cancer cells. So it confounds me whenever I see somebody who has undergone chemotherapy or suffered, you know, the terrible trauma of cancer and is on the other side of it, who is not embracing a plant-based diet. Because to me, and based upon what I'm read, what I've read,

• 46:57Rich Roll?

  it's, it's so compelling that I have a hard time seeing it otherwise. And you, I want to hear your story and kind of hear your journey through that.

• 47:06Speaker 01

  I've read the China study and.

• 47:10Speaker 01

  The key problem to that is they take a lot of poetic license. The study wasn't exactly the way, as a matter of fact, I think Peter Attia talks about it in his blog a bunch. Do you talk about Peter Attia on this show?

• 47:26Rich Roll?

  I haven't. I'm aware that there are people that have attempted to debunk the China study, and I talked about that with James Wilks in the last episode, his opinion on that, and he's spent thousands of hours reading thousands of studies, and he just said that he did not find the debunking of the China study to be compelling.

• 47:49Speaker 01

  And you see, that's where we differ, because I did find it compelling. And even before I read any of the studies, the problem I had with it, the inherent problem I have with everything, coming from a school that's steeped in science, is that it was a study of thousands or tens of thousands or millions of people. How many people were studied in that study?

• 48:12Rich Roll?

  I don't know exactly, but it was, this was not a small study. It was a study of a huge population of people that lasted for a very long time. And to me, that makes it more compelling.

• 48:23Speaker 01

  That's what, you see, that's where we differ. That's where, that's where it falls off the page for me, because being from a scientific school where you're always doing double-blind studies, you come to learn that unless you have a double-blind study, you have nothing. And when you have millions of people who just walk around and they're not housed in any way, shape, or form, or controlled in any kind of form, then the whole study is just out the window. You can make those numbers become whatever you want those numbers to become, and this study was done, as you said, over years and years and years, decades, I think, if I remember right. I read that book a while back. And it was done with thousands or hundreds of thousands of people, so there's no way

• 49:06Speaker 01

  you can actually pull a real study from the China study. And that's the problem I had reading the book. And then everything I've read after that to debunk it. I kind of agree with because I was already there.

• 49:18Rich Roll?

  In fairness, I mean, a double-blind study. So you're going to have another 100,000 people eating a different, a different way. But then you'd have to deal with a different, a completely different culture and with their cultural mores that get played into it. I mean, you couldn't conduct a study of, with that many people on that scale and make it double-blind. So

• 49:39Speaker 01

  Right.

• 49:39Rich Roll?

  I think you have to look at it and go, well, there's some seriously powerful correlations going on here. Let me think about this. I mean, did it, you can't read it and, and not at least rethink what's going on. I mean, to say, you can't just say, oh, well, this is ridiculous and throw it out the window.

• 49:57Speaker 01

  And you see, I can because that, that's, that's where the discrepancy is. It's, it's too big a study and it's done over too many years. And it just, it doesn't hold water.

• 50:10Rich Roll?

  All right. Well, let me ask you this.

• 50:11Speaker 01

  Just reading the book before I read any outside studies, the, the entire book, because you know, when you have cancer, boy, you want to read everything.

• 50:18Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 50:19Speaker 01

  And you, you read that and you go, yeah, I can't buy it. I can't buy it at all. It, it was just, it's, it's the same as you brought up that movie with the two doctors that have both been kicked out of their universities.

• 50:31Rich Roll?

  Forks over knives?

• 50:32Speaker 01

  Forks over knives.

• 50:33Rich Roll?

  Well, that's those, that is the doctor of the China study.

• 50:36Speaker 01

  Right.

• 50:37Rich Roll?

  That's Dr. Esselstyn and, and T. Colin Campbell is his name, the author of the China study.

• 50:41Speaker 01

  You know, the, you know, I'm not a forks over knives guy, you know, I have, I have a lot of trouble with that movie.

• 50:47Rich Roll?

  See, I don't.

• 50:49Speaker 01

  You know, but you see, I, we see it through different eyes and that's where, that's where the problem, as a matter of fact, there.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  I don't know why I have so, I'd have to go back and watch fork over knives again, but I had a lot of problems. The, the one that threw me off, I can't remember the food, Inc. Food, Inc. really threw me for a loop because when you watch that, you don't know what to think anymore. It's like, okay, I'm just not going to eat anymore. You know, they make you think that anything you eat, whether it's a vegetable or a meat or a beef product or. Everything is bad in that study.

• 51:22Rich Roll?

  Well, it's just, it's pulling, it's, it's, it's just pulling the, the curtains on factory farming in general. It's sort of, it's an introduction to where you're, where the food that you find in the supermarket comes from, how it's positioned to speak to you on a marketing level, and how the system is set up for, to prevent you from having any understanding or connection to where it comes from. And that movie was great at saying, well, let's go behind the scenes here and let's take a, a look at where these chickens are raised and how they're treated, and how the farmers are treated, how they become indentured servitudes to, you know, the Tysons of the world.

• 52:02Speaker 01

  Which was horrible, by the way. You know, I, I grew up in a country, I, I didn't grow up in LA, and, um, you know, I, I saw where meat came from in two different fashions. We would go pick our cow. We, we were that family because it was four boys and we had to eat a lot of meat. So, you know, we would journey off with my parents and we'd go to one of those farms and pick a cow. And then my mom would write down how she wanted these steaks to be cut and those steaks, because the cuts matter. And it was a lot cheaper for a middle-class family to do that. So, we actually got to see where meat came from, which is pretty cool. We actually saw where eggs came from, because we went down, there's this black lady right down the street, I don't know why I had to say she was black, but in the South, that's what you do.

• 52:45Speaker 01

  There's this woman down the street who raised chickens and we would get the fresh eggs from that. And of course, uh, I've chopped heads off of chickens, so I've, I've seen that and I've done that. And I was a hunter until I was 19 years old, until I stopped. Uh, and the only reason I stopped was, and this is gonna sound cocky as hell, but I became too efficient with the gun and I didn't feel like it was a sport anymore. Uh, my feeling was, the animal didn't have a chance. Um, and for that reason, you know, I do have that, that thing with animals, I have such a respect for animals. Uh, if you remember in the last podcast, I thought your dog was running out in the street and I was like jumping out of my chair to go get your dog.

• 53:27Speaker 01

  And that, I have that kind of respect to where I felt like the animal, it wasn't a sport anymore. The animal didn't have a chance. I quit hunting, but I still eat meat.

• 53:40Speaker 01

  So yeah, I personally, I know where meat comes from. And I do believe in organic farming. I do believe in getting fruit and vegetables locally when you can. We fall prey to Ralph's. I don't know if you do, but we sometimes if you need vegetables for that day, you don't have time to go anywhere else and there's no farmer's market that's open. We walk right into Ralph's or we walk right into Smart and Final because they have a good array of vegetables. But we try to eat. You know, Serena grew up the same way. They had a cow. They would actually, and she raised her cow. So her cow had a name.

• 54:17Rich Roll?

  Right. And I appreciate, you know, the desire to get back to that. But yeah, at the same time, we live, you know, as Food Inc., so, you know, powerfully demonstrated. We're, we live in a different society with a very different system. And it's incumbent upon us to vote with our dollars and maybe spend the extra few bucks to go to the farmer's market to get the produce or whatever it is you're going to get so that it's locally grown and the like. I think that's important, but just to get back to this whole meat question and forks over knives and all of that. Cause I, I, I'm still stuck on this one thing, which is

• 55:02Rich Roll?

  as somebody who, who has suffered through cancer and by your own words, say, you know, you know, it's coming back or you think it's going to come back.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  No, oh no, there's a hundred percent chance.

• 55:13Rich Roll?

  It's a hundred percent chance. I want to talk about that in a second.

• 55:18Rich Roll?

  Even if you didn't find forks over knives compelling or the China study compelling, I think you'd be hard pressed to make out an argument that eating meat is.

• 55:31Rich Roll?

  Going to have a positive impact on your body's ability to combat the return of your cancer. So, wouldn't it be worth just trying it out and saying, "Maybe, maybe there is something to this plant-based diet." You know, "I'm staring down the barrel of my cancer returning. What can I do to do everything in my power to be best prepared for that? Or to combat it? Or to prevent it?" And as your friend, as somebody who cares about you, you know, a lot...

• 56:07Speaker 01

  You just need a riding partner.

• 56:09Rich Roll?

  No, listen, you know, seriously.

• 56:12Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:13Rich Roll?

  You know? I mean, you could say, "Well, I didn't buy the China study." But there isn't any studies out there that say, "If you're eating grass-fed beef or meat, this is going to help you with cancer." Is there?

• 56:28Speaker 01

  Um, here's where I'm basing it on. I was told once my cancer was in remission. I had a lot of cancer in me at the time. I had leukemia and 80% of my bone marrow was leukemia. And 20% was bone marrow.

• 56:49Rich Roll?

  Well, let's just lay the foundation here a little bit. Let's go back and tell us what happened.

• 56:53Speaker 01

  Um, I was getting ready for the 508, for a bike race. And that entire year, I kept getting sick. I was getting sick for about a year. A guy that never got sick. And it was all phantom illnesses, like I would have, like a stomach cramp, the kind that would just, I would be doubled over in pain and brought to a doctor and, you know, by a friend. At all hours of the night, I was always cold. I was more cold, you know, not like today. I was always cold, even on 100-degree days. There were weird things happening and I kept chalking it up to... You know, just I'm training a lot, 30 hours in a saddle every week.

• 57:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're not going to feel good when you're.

• 57:40Speaker 01

  You're not going to feel great all the time. I'm getting older. I use that excuse. I used every, I'm thinner than I used to be. I was getting rail thin. I was down to 150 some odd pounds.

• 57:50Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 57:51Speaker 01

  Uh, you know, really crazy things were going on. I just kept chalking it up to everything else. And then finally I had a blood test and that blood test revealed, you know, that I needed more blood test and that revealed that I needed a bone marrow biopsy and that revealed that you need to get chemo tomorrow.

• 58:12Rich Roll?

  What year was this?

• 58:14Speaker 01

  This was, um, oh, six or oh, seven, oh, seven.

• 58:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 58:22Speaker 01

  And, uh, I, I, uh, I got chemo pretty quickly. Like literally within two days, it was a, no, we can't wait a week, you know? And they had to put me on just a crap load of chemotherapy for a long, like, they told me either we're going to cure you or we're going to kill you with this chemo. As a matter of fact, it was one of Amgen's drugs that they had to give me to combat the chemo.

• 58:47Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  They were giving me.

• 58:50Rich Roll?

  And I remember just as a brief caveat, a couple of years ago, maybe in 2009, we were out on a training ride up out in the mountains and just you and I riding and there was a guy up ahead who was wearing an Amgen cycling kit. Amgen is a big pharmaceutical company that is headquartered locally here. Uh, and you rode up to, you just rode up to the guy and started chatting with him and I was behind and then I caught up to you and you, and he had ridden off and you said, that guy was the guy who was one of the chief scientists who helped develop the drug that saved my life. And I think it happened to be that day that we were riding, I think was like,

• 59:31Rich Roll?

  maybe the one or two year anniversary for you. Like there was something significant about that particular day.

• 59:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, we were riding, we caught that little piece of Mulholland leading to that. We call Cancer Alley because that's where I was on my bike.

• 59:43Rich Roll?

  That's what it was. You said, this is where I, this is where I got the call that said that I had cancer.

• 59:48Speaker 01

  Scientists who invented the car.

• 59:49Rich Roll?

  And that was exactly where we saw that guy who, yeah.

• 59:52Speaker 01

  It was kind of, it was one of those freaky things that happens in life.

• 59:55Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 59:56Speaker 01

  And we talk about all that in the book. And, well, getting back to it, you know, I got cured, you know, the short story is, I got cured.

• 1:00:06Rich Roll?

  The chemo worked.

• 1:00:07Speaker 01

  The chemo worked. And my doctor said to me, she says, look, here's what happens now. You still have a small amount of leukemia. We can't kill this all the way. We don't have a drug to kill it all the way. And this leukemia is gonna grow back. And she goes, but the good thing is, is that in history, the drug that kills it, there's three drugs that can kill this type of chemo. In history, the drug that killed it before will continue to kill it. Your body works well on the drug. So when it comes back, we could give you the same drug. And she says, the beauty of it is, when it comes back,

• 1:00:48Speaker 01

  we could catch it earlier, so we can give you just a common cold version of this drug. And you won't be out of life for six months to where you were, you know, you're just... You know, we'll give you the chemo, you know, you'll be missing for a week in action. You know, you'll have another week, and then you'll be fine again. And I said, great, when is this gonna come back? She said, well,

• 1:01:10Speaker 01

  historically, you know, some people have gone 10 years. She said, but generally, four or five years is about what you're gonna get.

• 1:01:19Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:01:19Speaker 01

  And I was like, so great, every four or five years, I have to, like a car getting a tune-up, you know, I have to go in for an oil change. And I said, doc, is there anything I can do, or eat, any vitamin I can take, or any supplement out there that might help me along? And this is, you know, one of the foremost authorities on hematology at Cedars-Sinai. I happened to get the best because my friend, who's an oncologist, a radio oncologist, got me the best. I was able to get in with this particular doctor. She said, sugar. Stay away from sugar.

• 1:01:56Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:01:57Speaker 01

  And I went, got it. What does that mean? She goes, stay away from sugar. Those people do better. You know, it shows, you know, we, we, we can tell that cancer loves sugar and it will grow from sugar. And that's when I started my campaign of.

• 1:02:13Rich Roll?

  No sugar.

• 1:02:14Speaker 01

  No sugar. I was always, as you know, you mentioned in your book, I was always, don't eat too much sugar on a ride guy.

• 1:02:20Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  If you're gonna have sugar, have it for dessert or have, you know, but not when you're riding because it's gonna screw up your stomach.

• 1:02:25Rich Roll?

  But you weren't creating a religion around it like you are now.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:02:29Rich Roll?

  And. This hashtag NSNG.

• 1:02:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. And by the way, I didn't, I didn't start that, by the way.

• 1:02:36Rich Roll?

  You didn't.

• 1:02:36Speaker 01

  No, one of, one of my people did. So I'm like, wait, wait a minute. They're smarter than me. So, um, I grabbed the no sugar, no grain thing. And it works. It works for me. You know, it, you know, I can still have all the vegetables I want. I don't eat as many fruit as I used to eat. Still have my pears. I love pears. I love apples. I have the occasional orange, you know, but most of my fruit are low glycemic index fruits. Um, I'm big on strawberries, big on raspberries, big on blueberries, anything with a berry I'm big on. The melons have gone out of my life. I can't remember the last time I had melon.

• 1:03:13Speaker 01

  Um, so all of those type of fruits have gone away. The fruits that have remained, tomatoes, uh, avocados, that, that's remained.

• 1:03:23Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm.

• 1:03:24Speaker 01

  And instead of just having, you know, I, I love vegetables. You know, I grew up in a vegetable garden. So there's, it's not too many vegetables I won't eat. I'm not crazy about, um,

• 1:03:37Speaker 01

  geez, I think I like them all. I mean, name a vegetable you don't like. It's.

• 1:03:42Rich Roll?

  I like them all now.

• 1:03:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. Did you not like some of them before? Celery. I'm not a celery fan for some odd reason. I don't get them.

• 1:03:49Rich Roll?

  Well, my palate has changed. So things that, I wouldn't say there were vegetables that I hated or had a tremendous dislike for. But celery would be something that's like neutral. I'm not going to go out of my way to eat celery, but now I like celery.

• 1:04:05Speaker 01

  Do you, would you put it like in a Vitamix and?

• 1:04:07Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:04:08Speaker 01

  And you, and you like it. You see, to me, it screws up the whole, the whole, I don't know, for some reason. Brussels sprouts, I love.

• 1:04:18Rich Roll?

  Uh huh.

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  You know, some people-

• 1:04:19Rich Roll?

  That's one that a lot of people don't like.

• 1:04:21Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:04:21Rich Roll?

  Which I don't get, there, I don't know, there's nothing about them to dislike, in my opinion, but-

• 1:04:26Speaker 01

  Well, I used to be so-so on them, but as I've gotten older, you know, I love the Brussels sprout, you know.

• 1:04:33Rich Roll?

  Right. But I think in addition to the no sugar thing, and I get that, you know, that makes a lot of sense. It would seem to me, based upon my understanding, that you would want to be eating a very alkaline-forming diet. That the more alkaline you could make your diet, that is creating a, an environment in your body that is very disease preventive.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:05:00Rich Roll?

  And has been shown, I think unanimously, to be helpful in combating everything from the flu to more congenital diseases. So, and again, I'm not a doctor, I'm not a nutritionist. Do your own research. But when you're eating an alkaline-forming diet, it's very anti-inflammatory. And inflammation has been connected to all sorts of diseases. Protracted, chronic inflammation in the body as a result of eating a more acidic diet, which is the standard American diet that causes a lot of inflammation, has been linked to leading to all sorts of problems.

• 1:05:42Rich Roll?

  So, it would seem to me that that would be your focus, and a lot of those fruits, and not all fruits are alkaline-forming, but a lot of them are, and you know, things that are high in antioxidants, et cetera, would be,

• 1:05:56Rich Roll?

  to my thinking, at the top of your list.

• 1:05:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, and here's where, you know, my blood gets checked all the time.

• 1:06:04Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Every four months. And, you know, as you know, I know me, I'll go in before four months just to get it checked.

• 1:06:12Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:06:12Speaker 01

  And my blood is healthier now than it's ever been in my life. My cholesterol's not raised one bit from all the additional cream and meat and everything else that I eat.

• 1:06:26Speaker 01

  My LDLs and HDLs and all of the stuff in between is healthier now.

• 1:06:31Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:06:33Speaker 01

  My triglycerides are off-the-charts low.

• 1:06:38Speaker 01

  You know, my blood looks healthier. As a matter of fact, one of my clients that we openly talk about, Howie Mandel, he's been with me for years. And I was always able to keep him on a low roar as far as not getting, he just didn't want to be fat. And Howie's 57 now, and his wife was always against my diet of eating more fat and more meat and more everything else. And Howie is the most neurotic human being on the planet. And he was in seeing his cardiologist, he goes, I think, once every two months to see his cardiologist, I'm not kidding about that. And he said, like, you know, my trainer's been on me about this, you know, eating more meat, and I'm scared that my heart's gonna

• 1:07:20Speaker 01

  pop, and, you know, all those other things that overly neurotic people might think. And his doctor agreed with me. So Howie told, finally told Terry, his wife, hey, go screw yourself, I'm gonna try this for a while. And he started doing it, and he ended up losing more weight. Now, he's not in ketosis, by the way. He still enjoys sugar once or twice a week. He'll have a dessert, or he'll have a something. And, but for the most part, every time he goes and gets his blood checked, his doctor goes, this is the craziest thing. Your triglycerides are lower, and your HDLs and LDLs are better than they've ever been. And you, and this is a guy who was always battling with just being good enough. But

• 1:08:05Speaker 01

  when he hears the cardiologist tell him that he's gonna live forever, then he starts to buy into it. And now, I don't know if you've seen him lately, the guy is leaner than he's ever been in his life. He's 57, and he looks younger than he's ever looked. So, yeah, you can, you know, that's, you know, you were talking earlier about vegans look better than, you know, the guys eating the high fat. But you can always look at the extremes on both ends, and those people are gonna look better anyway. I think the problem that we're having are the people in between, who keep juggling back and forth and never get on one plan. They never become vegans, or vegetarians, or they never become,

• 1:08:47Speaker 01

  you know, just these carnivores that are eating all of this meat. And that could be where the problem is. But truthfully, I think the problem lies in the fact that we eat too many grains and too many sugars.

• 1:09:08Rich Roll?

  Somebody tweeted, I think it was Ken for Health, who's always tweeting.

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  That guy tweets a lot. I like him, by the way.

• 1:09:15Rich Roll?

  He said, "How can I be a low-fat vegan who doesn't eat sugar or grains?" Like, I think he's trying to adopt some kind of hybrid, zinni-rich program. I was gonna tweet him back and say, "Become a breathitarian. Just breathe air for your calories."

• 1:09:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:35Rich Roll?

  You know, I don't eat, I'm not a sweet tooth. I don't eat, I really don't eat sugar, although I do juice and I Vitamix. But I don't go crazy.

• 1:09:44Speaker 01

  You do it all in the Vitamix, right? Or do you use a juicer too?

• 1:09:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, we just got a new juicer, so I've been doing a little bit more juicing. But the juicing that I do is really green juice. It's very vegetable-based.

• 1:09:55Speaker 01

  So it's not high in glycemic.

• 1:09:56Rich Roll?

  I'll put some fruit in it, really just to cut the taste. So they're not super, you know, I'm not juicing like, you know, 10 oranges or a bike.

• 1:10:07Rich Roll?

  And I do have some grains. I'll eat brown rice. I'll eat, well, quinoa's a seed, but I guess it's still a grain. You know, I eat things like that. But I'm not, I'm not eating tons of breakfast cereal and oatmeal. And that's really because I don't prefer it in the morning. It feels heavy in my stomach.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  That stuff is processed, too.

• 1:10:26Rich Roll?

  It is processed, you know. A lot of the grains are processed. So I think, I feel that, you know, I'll eat brown rice pasta, which is processed. I'll have that for dinner. I just don't, I don't go overboard on it.

• 1:10:42Rich Roll?

  But I'm not super low carb in my approach. But I would say that my diet is comprised predominantly of vegetables with some grains in it. And I don't eat, and I don't eat, I don't drink sodas or I don't have a sweet tooth. I don't even have like vegan desserts, like cookies and coconut milk ice cream, mainly because I don't really crave it. I'm more of a greasy guy.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  And that's why you look the way you look. I, you know, I get this question a lot. The second, the two biggest vegan questions I get is, number one, what about quinoa? Well, the first biggest vegan question I get is, what about Rich Roll? You're saying he doesn't like that? That might be number one. Number two is, what about quinoa? And number three is, if I eat a grain, which grain should I eat? I always tell people rice. And Dr. Lustig, who is the big, you know,

• 1:11:37Rich Roll?

  He's the wheat belly guy?

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  No, no, no, that's different. That's a different guy. Lustig is the guy who finally has a book out, thank God. He was the guy that had that 89 minute video go viral. It's called Sugar, The Bitter Truth. If you guys want to go watch something really cool, he doesn't tell people not to eat vegetables, by the way. And he doesn't tell people to be in dietary ketosis. He just lays it out. He's the foremost authority, probably on the planet, in childhood obesity. He's with the UCLA system. And he talks about why Asians are thin and why they, you know, because the only carb they really eat, the only grain they eat is rice. And rice, if you're going to eat a grain, is the way to go.

• 1:12:20Speaker 01

  And Serena, my beautiful girlfriend, she, it's the grain she eats. You know, she's a big rice person. She'll, she'll have the rice pastas.

• 1:12:30Rich Roll?

  And she's a big runner too. She's a chi running coach, right?

• 1:12:34Speaker 01

  She, she, if you guys are in LA, you need a chi running coach. She's right in there. She's a vegan at heart, by the way.

• 1:12:42Rich Roll?

  She's a vegan at heart.

• 1:12:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. She really is.

• 1:12:46Rich Roll?

  And by the way, she was a Playboy centerfold?

• 1:12:51Speaker 01

  Well, she shot for Playboy.

• 1:12:53Rich Roll?

  She shot for Playboy.

• 1:12:54Speaker 01

  She shot for Playboy when she did a movie with Bruce Willis. She was in Hostage with Bruce Willis.

• 1:13:00Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  And she shot for Playboy. She got paid like $80,000. By the way, we know what you get paid for writing books, right? We, we write books.

• 1:13:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  No, all she has to do is show up, get naked, take a picture, $80,000. They never ran the photos.

• 1:13:16Rich Roll?

  Really?

• 1:13:16Speaker 01

  They never ran them. The show, the movie wasn't as big as they thought it was going to be. And for some reason, they went to a different star at the time. But she is a Bond girl.

• 1:13:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, she was. Which Bond movie was she in?

• 1:13:29Speaker 01

  She was in, uh, The world is not enough with that bond, whoever that bond was, the good looking guy.

• 1:13:35Rich Roll?

  There are very few men walking the planet right now who can say that their girlfriend is a bond girl.

• 1:13:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's just a few of them.

• 1:13:42Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's pretty badass.

• 1:13:44Speaker 01

  Well, speaking of women, whenever I see your wife walking around, I go, how the hell does he get her? I mean, Julie's one of the most beautiful women. Speaking of beautiful women.

• 1:13:53Rich Roll?

  Thank you.

• 1:13:54Speaker 01

  Really? How did you get her? Did you use an ether rag?

• 1:13:58Rich Roll?

  Trickery. Tim Ferriss trickery.

• 1:14:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it has to be because I'll look at her and I go, son of a bitch, he must have a cock that's just like a mile long.

• 1:14:07Rich Roll?

  Uh oh, we just went explicit again. Yeah. No, she, uh, she's quite the lightning rod on the podcast, too.

• 1:14:15Speaker 01

  Or she would have to be.

• 1:14:16Rich Roll?

  She's a, uh, yeah, there's a, there's some divisiveness over her participation. But I stand behind her, behind her 100%.

• 1:14:24Speaker 01

  What's the deal, right?

• 1:14:24Rich Roll?

  Well, Julie's a strong woman and she speaks her mind and that doesn't always line up with, uh, with everybody.

• 1:14:33Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:14:33Rich Roll?

  I mean, you know her.

• 1:14:34Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what I love about her.

• 1:14:36Rich Roll?

  I do too. And for everybody out there, uh, if you have an issue with Julie, uh, you know, I guess I could say I understand why she's not everyone's cup of tea, but I love her and she will remain my co-host on this podcast. And if you have an issue with that, then I guess you can listen to another podcast.

• 1:14:56Speaker 01

  And if you're gonna listen to another podcast.

• 1:14:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, then go and listen to Vinny.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Uh, you know what?

• 1:15:00Rich Roll?

  I hope that you got some new subscribers, by the way, from being on here.

• 1:15:03Speaker 01

  We, we had a, after I was on this show, we had a bump. Let me give you some kudos, by the way. When, when I went on, you know, on Lipson, you know, you can see your bumps and what happens and all the things. When I went on Access Hollywood, which is a national program, of course, the very next day I had a huge bump.

• 1:15:22Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:15:22Speaker 01

  But the very next day after that, it went right back down to where it was before, just teetering along. I came on your show, I got a bump. Never went away.

• 1:15:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, buddy.

• 1:15:35Speaker 01

  That's the way it happens.

• 1:15:36Rich Roll?

  Loyal podcast fans. Thank you.

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  People who listen to podcasts will listen to other podcasts. That's why I want to have you back on my show.

• 1:15:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:15:43Speaker 01

  Just to spread the word back in this direction.

• 1:15:45Rich Roll?

  Last time to you, which is we have to do what the comedians do. They all do each other's podcasts.

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:15:50Rich Roll?

  And I think it all helps all of them grow their audiences. And I've ended up learning about all sorts, because I listen to a lot of those. I ended up learning about a lot of different guys I'd never heard of, because I don't go, you know, I don't go to stand up shows, you know, I don't know what's going on in comedy, but I find out from those podcasts, which I enjoy listening to. So we have to do the same in the, in the health and fitness world, which is why I had.

• 1:16:10Speaker 01

  If you want to come on this Sunday.

• 1:16:11Rich Roll?

  I had Ben on, then you had Ben on. Now there's, you know, Dave Asprey and who's got the Bulletproof Radio. And, you know, we gotta, we gotta get cohesive here.

• 1:16:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, Dave.

• 1:16:20Rich Roll?

  By the way, you haven't been, you haven't gotten sued yet, have you?

• 1:16:23Speaker 01

  No, but they're supposed to sue us all, right?

• 1:16:25Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. I know. If you didn't listen to the, the first episode when I had Vinnie on, we talked about this thing that's happening in podcast right now with these patent trolls, who are latching on to these crazy obscure patents and suing all sorts of people. And it's found its way into the podcast world. Adam Carolla, Leo Laporte, some of these people are getting demand letters and are getting sued because this troll is claiming he owns a patent that has to do with the distribution of content over the internet. And I don't know, I, on the one hand, I don't want to get sued, but on the other hand, I'm like, well, if you got sued, then you're, then you've arrived, right?

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:06Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:17:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't think we're big enough. They're going after like the top guys.

• 1:17:09Rich Roll?

  Of course.

• 1:17:10Speaker 01

  And, but no, we need to have you back on. If you want to come on this Sunday, we could Skype you in.

• 1:17:15Rich Roll?

  I think I could, I think, I want to do it in person. There's something about doing it in person.

• 1:17:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:20Rich Roll?

  You know what I mean? I've done a bunch of Skype, I've done a bunch of Skype ones, and they're all, they're all great. But, you know, you don't get the same dynamic when you're sitting across from somebody.

• 1:17:29Speaker 01

  Let's, let me talk to Anna and see, you know, ours, you know, you'd be running all the way out to the North Valley. You know, we only do it for about a half an hour, but I'd run a little longer if you came in.

• 1:17:39Rich Roll?

  We'll work it out. Yeah.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd love to have you on this weekend.

• 1:17:46Speaker 01

  What were we talking about?

• 1:17:47Rich Roll?

  You were talking about how you got a bump. You got a bump.

• 1:17:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you got a big bump from you, man. And it was like, wow, look at this. And again, you know, like when I'm on Jimmy Moore's show, you get that bump and the bump never goes away. So the key to all of us making it here is just going on other podcasts to, you know, just hawk our wares and let people decide if they want to come back and listen or not listen.

• 1:18:06Rich Roll?

  That's right.

• 1:18:07Speaker 01

  That's the cool thing about this.

• 1:18:08Rich Roll?

  We each have our own little pirate ship, man. And we're independent. Let's keep it that way.

• 1:18:13Speaker 01

  I love it that way.

• 1:18:14Rich Roll?

  Right? Me too.

• 1:18:15Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:18:16Rich Roll?

  All right. What's going on with the book?

• 1:18:19Speaker 01

  The book is coming out in March and I'm reading it again right now for the first time in like three or four months. Yeah, I put it aside because it was getting edited and the whole thing. And literally reading it again, I'm still finding like mistakes in it. Like the other day I'm reading through and I went, wait a minute. I got like a passage past a passage and I went, I said glycogen, but that should have been glucose. And I'm sitting there going, why didn't the editor case this? And I realized the editor is an editor and he knows nothing about fitness. So that's happening. But the book is, we're excited about the way we're doing it. Did we talk on air as to what we're doing here?

• 1:19:02Rich Roll?

  Yeah, a little bit, a little bit.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Because I know you and I, when we turned the mics off last time, we talked for another 20 or 30 minutes. So I can't remember what was on mic.

• 1:19:10Rich Roll?

  Well, we got into a little bit about how the self-publishing is going to work for you and the launch and all of that. So what are you, what are you, what are you lining up here to? Do you have a date yet when it's going to drop?

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  We don't have an actual date because, you know, we just got it back from the editors. And we, you know, so we're not doing that, that, you know, publish your own book approach where you write a book and just throw it up there and it's going to be a piece of junk. I wanted it to be properly edited. So we did that and we're punching in pictures here and there again. And now it goes off to, and I'm teaching the audience, but I'm learning this myself. It goes off to a group and this is the most expensive part. This is costing several thousand dollars. We're having it formatted for every different type of format it could be on.

• 1:19:59Rich Roll?

  Digital, you mean? Yeah, Nook, Kindle and all of that.

• 1:20:02Speaker 01

  And it needs to be formatted in paperback and hardcover. So, we're doing all of that upfront. So, when the book comes out, you will be able to buy it Amazon, Nook, Kindle, you know, hardcover, softcover, whatever you want will be available. It's gonna all be different prices. And of course, I'm gonna have to do an audiobook. I don't want to do it myself.

• 1:20:22Rich Roll?

  Oh, come on. The radio host guy and the whole thing?

• 1:20:26Speaker 01

  I know, I know.

• 1:20:27Rich Roll?

  And you could do it for no money. You have the studio, you got the cha- you have to do it. Listen, let me tell you.

• 1:20:33Speaker 01

  You did it. You did a great job. I don't think I'm that good.

• 1:20:36Rich Roll?

  You have to read your own book. You'll regret it if you don't. And in my case, my publisher was sort of discouraging me from doing it and saying, "You don't want to do it. It's a lot of work, blah, blah, blah." And I kind of backchanneled it to make it happen. Actually, Twitter played a part in that. Because Blackstone Audio, who bought the audiobook rights to the book, tweeted something about how they had acquired the rights to my book. And I tweeted them back and said something snarky like, "You're not gonna let me read it?" Because my publisher said, "In the contract, they had no obligation to use me."

• 1:21:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:14Rich Roll?

  And my editor was like, "They probably, you know, they, we're on a, we gotta fast track this thing because this deal just happened. The book's coming out. They need a pro because they gotta bang this thing out. We don't have a lot of time. So, you know, just forget it." I said, "Okay," because I don't know anything better. But then I sent Blackstone like a sort of half-comic, half-snarky tweet like, "What? You know, you don't trust me to read my own book?" or something like that. And then like a day later, I got an email from the guy who runs the company who said, "Hey, you want to read this? You can read it if you want." So, it's that disconnect between the publishing house and the other people or whatever. And so, long story short, I finagled my way into doing it. And then I thought... And then I went to start recording it and then I thought, what have I got myself into?

• 1:21:57Rich Roll?

  I don't know what I'm doing. I'm out of my depth here. It took a long time, sitting in a sweaty, you know, tiny little booth doing it. But now I'm so glad that I did it. It's like a, it's a once in a lifetime thing, man. You have some other idiot read your book.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  I'm not good at Live, even though it's my work.

• 1:22:13Rich Roll?

  But it doesn't matter because you read it and then literally like I would read a sentence and then every other sentence I'd screw up and you just back it up. You have somebody who knows what they're doing and then they go, okay, say that line again, say that line again. And then you just get through it, man. And when you're on the other side of it, you'll be like, I can't imagine I was thinking about having someone else read my book.

• 1:22:28Speaker 01

  How many hours did you spend in that booth?

• 1:22:30Rich Roll?

  It was like three or four days of, you know, a good, maybe five or six hours in the booth. I mean, it was, it was work for sure, but it's, you know, come on, man. It's your book.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  Oh, fuck, man. Really?

• 1:22:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  You know, I might-

• 1:22:50Rich Roll?

  And you know what? Here's, here's another reason. Because it creates, it strips away another layer that allows you to more authentically and emotionally connect with your audience and the readers and the people that are interested in you and your story. You know what I mean? They know they're getting you. You're reading it the way that you intended to write it and the way that it's intended to be heard. And if you have somebody else read it, you're gonna, you're gonna listen to it and go, that's not what I meant, or that's not the inflection that I was thinking when I wrote that sentence.

• 1:23:21Speaker 01

  Did Serena put you up to this?

• 1:23:22Rich Roll?

  No, not at all. I have a strong opinion on this, you know? And it is, it is work, but when you're on, trust me, a year from now, you're gonna think, what, I couldn't go into a booth for a couple of days and read my own book?

• 1:23:35Speaker 01

  That's not, you know, when, when I downloaded your book to read, to listen to, I got the audio. I, as soon as, you know, the audio started-

• 1:23:48Rich Roll?

  You thought, man, I'm not doing what he did for my book. I'm gonna get somebody who knows how to read.

• 1:23:52Speaker 01

  Well, no, the first words came, it's like by Rich Roe. Read by Rich Roe. I went, oh, Jesus Christ. I gotta sit here and listen to this guy for the next ever. And then five minutes in, I was like, of course he should read this book. I mean, this is, you did a great job. And I remember thinking at the time, I can't do this. I can't. He's done a great job. I can't do this because I'm scared I'm gonna lose the, you had inflection and you spoke well and I have this

• 1:24:20Rich Roll?

  Listen, you're, you're the one with a radio background who's been doing a, who's done 90 episodes of a podcast. You spent half your day sitting in front of a microphone and you're not gonna read your own book?

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  It's like, I'll sit here and go Starbucks. I'm reading off a Starbucks cup right now, folks. I can't read anything else.

• 1:24:37Rich Roll?

  No, it's just like public speaking. It's almost like, you know, I did it with, with the, the book was on an iPad that was set up in front of me and you can make the type big. You make it like a teleprompter and just read, what I have to do is read one sentence at a time and then you can take a breath because the engineer knows how to do all of that. You don't have to read it through and like, you know, and you're breathing and running out of back.

• 1:24:57Speaker 01

  That's what I was worried about.

• 1:24:58Rich Roll?

  No, no, no, no, no.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  You're giving me information. So in other words, if I read, let's say my

• 1:25:03Rich Roll?

  And I have, I can hook you up with the guy who did, who did mine. He's, lives out in the valley. He's got a studio in his house and he just bangs out these audio books.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  If I was reading that over there, it says rejecting middle age, become one of the world's fit, uh, you see, I screwed it up already.

• 1:25:18Rich Roll?

  Well, then you just stop and you back it up and the guy goes, no problem. Just read it again. Read it again. Read it again.

• 1:25:24Speaker 01

  And discovering myself, finding altar by ritual. I mean, I don't, I

• 1:25:30Rich Roll?

  You can do it. I'm not, I'm not gonna let you not read your book.

• 1:25:32Speaker 01

  I'm so self-conscious about, so hook me up with your guy, maybe.

• 1:25:35Rich Roll?

  I will, for sure.

• 1:25:37Speaker 01

  Because we, you know, it's, it's hanging over my head like a, like a ton of bricks and I don't

• 1:25:43Rich Roll?

  Unless you're gonna have Howie Mandel read it.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  I could do that.

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  I don't know if he'd do a better read than me.

• 1:25:51Rich Roll?

  No, you gotta read your own book. Come on, man. All right, we gotta talk about something else or wrap it up because we're losing subscribers by the second here.

• 1:26:00Speaker 01

  The people you've got, now, now they're gone.

• 1:26:02Rich Roll?

  They're all leaving, like, seriously?

• 1:26:04Speaker 01

  So what have we learned today about vegans versus carnivore?

• 1:26:07Rich Roll?

  Right, here's the thing. It's gonna be the same thing. Like now I'm more confused than ever, but here's what, look, Vinny and I, I sound like a brown, a broken record, but you know, we, we have different perspectives. That doesn't mean that we can't be friends and, and writing partners. He has his view. I have my view. I feel strongly about, uh, my program and protocol, or I wouldn't have written a book about it. Vinny feels the same way about his, or he wouldn't be about to release a book that he's written about it. And

• 1:26:38Rich Roll?

  You know, that's the way that it is. But I think that there, if you look at it like a Venn diagram with a couple overlapping circles, there's quite a bit of overlap in what we're saying. And I think it starts with how we open the podcast. Get rid of the sodas. Get rid of the processed foods. Get rid of the snacks, the sugary stuff, all of that stuff. In terms of grains, most of the grains that find their way into the standard American diet are highly refined. What does that mean? It means they're stripped of anything nutritious in them. If you are not in a position where you're ready to let go of grains completely, then make sure you're eating a whole grain or a sprouted, preferably a sprouted grain.

• 1:27:22Rich Roll?

  If you want to get super hardcore, you can sprout your own grains in your house.

• 1:27:26Speaker 01

  Do you guys do that?

• 1:27:29Rich Roll?

  We do some sprouting. Well, I sprout, we sprout things like mung beans.

• 1:27:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:33Rich Roll?

  You know, it's easy to do. You just put it in a container and put a little water on it and let it sit there.

• 1:27:39Speaker 01

  Rich, was it Ken who asked a question about how he could get more fat into a vegan diet? I don't think we answered that question.

• 1:27:45Rich Roll?

  I think he was saying, how do I, how do I eat a vegan diet and not eat sugar and not eat grains?

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah, jeez. It's almost impossible, but...

• 1:27:58Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, he's, basically what he's saying is, I want to take, I want to take what Vinnie's saying, I want to take what Rich is saying and combine it into one thing.

• 1:28:04Speaker 01

  And you could get pretty close. Basically, you could take what Rich is saying and just cut the grains out and you're there. And what you need to add in is a ton more of vegetable fat, meaning...

• 1:28:14Rich Roll?

  Well, you can eat, you can eat, yeah, you can eat avocados, you can eat potatoes, you can eat sweet potatoes, you can eat lots of beans. I eat like lots of legumes. You know, there's a way to fill that, fill that gap. Personally, I don't think it's really an issue to have some brown rice in your diet. Vinnie may disagree with that.

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  I don't mind, you know, if you're gonna, like I said earlier, if you're gonna have a grain, make sure it's rice, you know, but don't make it a staple. I talk about that in the book because we don't talk about ketosis at all in the book.

• 1:28:49Speaker 01

  Spoiler alert, there's nothing about ketosis in a book. It's basically no sugar, no grain, but we talk about if you're gonna have it, have small amounts. And I think the way I described it in the book, not I think, I know because fuck, I wrote the book. When I was a kid, you know, we had a big piece of fish on the plate or a big piece of meat or there was something substantial on the plate. Then my parents always put vegetables, some kind of vegetable on the plate. And then if we had pasta or rice, it was just a dollop next to it. It was like this filler. And I remember that if we didn't have that, we had bread with dinner, but it wasn't both. I think what's happened in America's, you know, not just America, but all over the world.

• 1:29:35Speaker 01

  Now you'll go to a restaurant, you'll eat at home, it'll be a big giant pile of pasta. It's just a little tiny meatball or something on the side. You know, the whole thing is just, you know, reversed itself and that's where a problem starts.

• 1:29:49Rich Roll?

  Well, I actually think that it's, I have a different take on that. I think that it's become a giant pork chop or a giant steak with a tiny little salad on the side and maybe, you know, a little couple pieces of sauteed spinach. Where the meat dish has become the predominant entree as opposed to the side dish. And I think if you look at Asian cultures or you look at the way that, you know, we sort of evolved more historically, meat was a treat, right? It was something that was hard to come by and was special.

• 1:30:28Rich Roll?

  And so you would have a plate that proliferated with vegetables and then you'd have a little bit of meat and that was the delicacy. And I think that that's what's been reversed.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  Now, you see, I see it differently. Point, corner, point. I see it as the grains that have taken over the plate. Every time we go anywhere, you know, I see what people are getting on their plates. And it's not a whole lot of meat, it's not a whole lot of vegetables. There's a big pile of either rice or pasta. You know, go to any restaurants, big giant pile of some kind of grain there. And you're right, the vegetable does get squeezed out, and I think the meat gets squeezed out, too. At least, you know, I go over to-

• 1:31:12Rich Roll?

  I don't think the meat's getting squeezed. We're eating more meat than ever. I think people are eating meat like crazy.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  I don't see where they're eating enough. When I go over, what's that restaurant in the corner of the commons? Not King's, but the other corner. Marmalade.

• 1:31:29Rich Roll?

  Marmalade.

• 1:31:29Speaker 01

  When I walk into Marmalade, they think I'm a freak because I'll order a hamburger patty, or I'll get the fish. And I'll ask them to bring it without, you know, the bread if I get the hamburger patty, or I'll get a piece of fish. And then I'll say, can you bring me? They'll say, two side dishes. I'll say, I'd like to have broccoli. And they'll say, and what's your other side dish? I said, I want that to be broccoli, too. And they'll say, well, sir, you could get two different side dishes. Meaning, they're getting ready to push the grain. All I want is more, I want fish and I want vegetables. I don't want grains on my plate. I just want what I want. And that's where the problem starts. It's almost like they push it on you, not because they're trying to push the cheap stuff.

• 1:32:12Speaker 01

  They can't imagine people not eating that stuff.

• 1:32:15Rich Roll?

  Well, yeah, I mean, when I go in there for breakfast, I order steamed spinach and a side of tomatoes. So if you want to see them really, look at you weird.

• 1:32:24Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the other thing is the egg white omelet. That's something else that drives me nuts. People, oh, I'm on a diet, give me the egg white omelet. Well, jeez, why would you get rid of the only nutritional part of the egg? You know? The part that has all of the nutrition, they just throw right out.

• 1:32:41Rich Roll?

  Well, it's where the cholesterol is.

• 1:32:43Speaker 01

  And cholesterol's not bad for you.

• 1:32:45Rich Roll?

  I know, and now we're going around the merry-go-round again. You know.

• 1:32:49Speaker 01

  That's what I love about coming up here.

• 1:32:51Rich Roll?

  So, did we resolve anything?

• 1:32:53Speaker 01

  No, hell no.

• 1:32:54Rich Roll?

  I don't think, of course not, you know?

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  We just caused a lot more people to fight.

• 1:32:57Rich Roll?

  Now, people are really frustrated.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  By the way, you know, you were talking about Julie a minute ago and someone, you know, people sent bad comments. I had Serena on the podcast a couple of weeks ago, and I think I have some of your audience, because I never had a bad comment on iTunes, but all of a sudden, I got a couple of threes and fours.

• 1:33:16Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  And I don't, I don't understand the three. Either you like someone, or you don't like someone. How do you give them a three? You know?

• 1:33:24Rich Roll?

  Actually, the threes are, are the ones that caused me the most consternation, because if somebody gives you a one, I just go, well, either, either, you know, they're not hearing what I'm hearing, or he's just not the right person for this show. That's fine.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  And they move on.

• 1:33:39Rich Roll?

  And they move on. But a three is sort of like, I kind of like him, but I want him to be, I don't know. Listen, you know?

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  Would you write a review to give a guy a three? If you were going to give a review, you would either say, I love this guy, or I don't like this guy. But the person, one of the two people that gave us a three, hated Serena.

• 1:33:57Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:33:57Speaker 01

  And said as much in the comments, like, I like this show, but she said something bad about the people at Lululemon. We had a bad experience at Lululemon, and Serena was talking about it. You know, she couldn't have her own opinion, and she was, how could you say that about those girls? And it's like, well, because she had an opinion. They treated her like crap. They treated me like crap.

• 1:34:17Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:34:18Speaker 01

  We talked about it. That's what's cool about these shows. You can walk on and say, hey, I was treated badly at Lululemon. What's wrong with saying that?

• 1:34:26Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:34:27Speaker 01

  You know?

• 1:34:27Rich Roll?

  Well, I think the, the great thing about this medium is that we can have these long-winded conversations that maybe at times meander, but provides a safe forum for people to express their opinions. And the goal is not to necessarily push a certain agenda, it's to have an open discourse and a forum for ideas to get bantered about. And that means that ideas are going to get raised and discussed that some people don't agree with, or maybe have very strong. Opinions about one way or the other, and that pushes people's buttons. And I think in Julie's case, you know, she has some strong opinions about certain things that are controversial and that that

• 1:35:12Speaker 01

  What are those things?

• 1:35:13Rich Roll?

  No, we're not going to get into all of that because we're going to get dragged down into the mud. But we got, you know, we had, we, you know, and then there's a lot of people that thought it was fantastic. And then there's some people that weren't so crazy about it and felt compelled to write nasty emails in which they decided they were going to call my wife a bunch of names. And so I don't know how that translates into me being receptive or responsive. I'm fine with having comments up on the site that are critical as long as they're constructive. But when they start to go into the gutter and start to call names, then I'll pull them down. So it's been, it's been interesting navigating that. And I think that also it's,

• 1:35:57Rich Roll?

  it's somewhat due to the fact that, you know, the podcast is advertised as a health and fitness podcast. People come and they have an idea, maybe they read my book, or they've heard something about me. So they develop an idea of who this person is and what they're going to talk about. And then they project that. And then when the podcast or whatever they're hearing doesn't necessarily match up with that, it causes a reaction. Sometimes it's positive and sometimes it's negative. So it's been interesting to kind of gauge that as we go forward.

• 1:36:30Speaker 01

  Well, you know, the cool thing with podcasts is that people can comment and we can read those comments and get an idea. You know, when I was on terrestrial radio, you just didn't know, you know, people would vote by listening or not listen. And, you know, the ratings would only come out once every three months. And, you know, if you got a bad rating, it could have been based on the last show you did. And you just have no idea. So you lived and died by those ratings.

• 1:36:55Rich Roll?

  Right. But, but for me, this is and will always remain an authentic expression of who I am. Like, I don't want to direct or redirect the podcast based upon

• 1:37:13Rich Roll?

  Somebody's, you know, negative reaction to a particular show or an issue. You know what I mean?

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:37:18Rich Roll?

  Like, I just want to have interesting people on and it's not always going to be everybody's cup of tea. And that's totally cool. You know, I'm not looking to get the most ears I can. I'm just looking to collect an audience that's interested in the things that I'm interested in. And I understand that it's not for everybody and I'm totally okay with that. But I'm not going to change what I'm doing because, you know, somebody said something that made somebody upset.

• 1:37:43Speaker 01

  You know, you really do have to have some tough skin and yeah, always do. I don't have to.

• 1:37:48Rich Roll?

  And I don't have tough skin. You know, I don't like reading those comments. I mean, the response has been overwhelmingly positive. Don't get me wrong. It's been amazing, you know, and I love doing this and all of that. But every once in a while you get some negative comments and you go, okay, well, what am I going to do? Am I going to let that change what I'm doing? Or do I feel, do I have the conviction to stay true to what it is that I'm doing and what I want to be doing?

• 1:38:12Speaker 01

  And you have to. I mean, otherwise what are you doing it for?

• 1:38:15Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:38:15Speaker 01

  So you're doing the right thing.

• 1:38:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah. If you want to water it down, then go get a terrestrial radio job and have a program director tell you what to do.

• 1:38:23Speaker 01

  Oh, God. You have no idea. You have no idea how cool this is over there.

• 1:38:28Rich Roll?

  No, it's awesome. And I want it to be free and open. And if all I did was have people on that had, that held my point of view, then, then, then what, then what are you doing? You know what I mean? Like, I think that, like, let's say you are a hardcore Democrat. So you're always going to watch MSNBC or you're a hardcore Republican and you get your news from Fox News. Well, if all you do is get your news from the source that rubber stamps your point of view, then what are you learning? You know what I mean? Like, I think it's important to get in front, get, you know, get your eyes and your ears in front of people that have different points of view and try to have an open mind about

• 1:39:13Rich Roll?

  that and, and think creatively, think openly and have the spine to come up with your own opinion and perspective on things. But you can't do that if all you're doing is listening or watching people that agree with where you're coming from.

• 1:39:28Speaker 01

  It's interesting you should say that. I have a younger brother who is. So much of a right wing wacko that he fell off the wing like he went so far to the right that he fell off. I mean, that's how right wing he is. And we were talking about a week ago and he goes, yeah, I was watching our Rachel Maddow the other day. I said, wait a minute, you were watching who? He goes, Rachel Maddow. You know, she's that liberal woman that does a show. And I said, yeah, I know exactly who she is. But why were you? He goes, oh, I watch more of those than I watch, which I thought was an interesting, you know, he's a really smart guy. And I thought that was an interesting perspective because you never hear of white, right wing people saying, I was watching Rachel. And

• 1:40:11Speaker 01

  you never hear people on the left going, the other day Rush said, you know, you never hear that kind of perspective.

• 1:40:17Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, you should hear more of that. You know what I mean?

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  But that's what we're doing here.

• 1:40:20Rich Roll?

  I would trust your, I would trust your perspective and your point of view if you, yeah, if you're somebody who's a Fox News guy, and that's where you get your news, and you say, you know, I watch Rachel Maddow every day, I'm more likely to listen to you than if you're just somebody who's only watching Fox News and get 100% of your news from that. And vice versa, you know, I don't care what your political opinion is, whether you're left or you're right.

• 1:40:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you know, that's what we're doing here. And that's what a lot of people, it would be nice if, if, you know, Rachel could be on, on Rush's show and Rush could go, but they won't do that.

• 1:40:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  They're going to just spew what they have to spew.

• 1:40:52Rich Roll?

  Right. Well, every once in a while, Bill Maher tries to get right wing people on, on his show and they get beat up.

• 1:40:57Speaker 01

  But you see, it's not about getting them on to whip them. It's, you know, it should be a discussion. And that's where the problem lies. And that's why maybe they're right, because all we're doing here is confusing the crap out of people.

• 1:41:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  But I think that in the confusion, people can figure things out on their own. People are not dumb. A lot of times, people are ignorant to facts. And the fact that they'll listen to something like this, and then derive something from it, is a good thing. I think, at least I think that way.

• 1:41:30Rich Roll?

  I think it's empowering. And, and we're, and we're It's important to not be talking down or condescending to the audience. We're presenting this forum of ideas. Now it's your turn to synthesize that into something that works for you. And again, it's incumbent upon you to do your own research. Search within yourself, you know, what feels good to you and, you know, pursue and blaze your own path.

• 1:41:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:41:56Rich Roll?

  You know?

• 1:41:57Speaker 01

  Become a carnivorous vegan and you'll be just fine.

• 1:42:00Rich Roll?

  Think vegan.

• 1:42:02Speaker 01

  Think carnivore.

• 1:42:03Rich Roll?

  Come on, Vinny. I'm getting you on this vegan diet if it kills me.

• 1:42:06Speaker 01

  I'm already a vegan. How many carnivores you know that have a Vitamix?

• 1:42:11Rich Roll?

  Uh. Actually, a lot. There are, there are a lot.

• 1:42:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, I live out of a Vitamix. I eat more raw vegetables and that's, that confuses the crap out of you. And we keep talking about that. I confuse the crap out of people because I'm a Vitamix guy. You know, I eat a ton of raw vegetables every day. And I think everyone should for the phytonutrients alone.

• 1:42:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, absolutely.

• 1:42:39Rich Roll?

  I think we did it.

• 1:42:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:40Rich Roll?

  We ran, we ran out of things to say this week.

• 1:42:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:42:43Rich Roll?

  You know, it was cool. We didn't even talk about what we were going to talk about or

• 1:42:46Speaker 01

  What were we going to talk about?

• 1:42:47Rich Roll?

  Any plan or I don't know, I have no idea.

• 1:42:48Speaker 01

  Because you called, you tweeted me and said, what are we going to talk about? Fuck, just turn the mic on.

• 1:42:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I know. That's all we need. It's the best thing. Well, I can always rely on you. I don't have to do any work when you come in because we can just go.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  Hopefully you'll have me back again.

• 1:43:01Rich Roll?

  I will.

• 1:43:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:43:02Rich Roll?

  And we can confuse people even more.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  Let's just call it the confusion. Just call it the confusion.

• 1:43:07Rich Roll?

  An hour, the power hour of confusion with Vinny and Rich.

• 1:43:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, just call me confusion.

• 1:43:12Rich Roll?

  We'll leave you worse off than when we started.

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. So if you, if you thought you knew something before, you don't know it now.

• 1:43:18Rich Roll?

  Right. Cool. All right, man. Did you get everything off your chest? Do you want to get off today?

• 1:43:23Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm going to talk to Anna. As a matter of fact, as soon as we cut the mics off, I'll call her and see if we can bring you in Sunday. And uh

• 1:43:30Rich Roll?

  Sounds good.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Be fun. Love to have you.

• 1:43:32Rich Roll?

  Thanks for coming by again.

• 1:43:34Speaker 01

  Thanks, man.

• 1:43:34Rich Roll?

  I appreciate it.

• 1:43:35Speaker 01

  Alright, have a good day.

• 1:43:36Rich Roll?

  Alright, man. So uh, Jai Lifestyle. I didn't even do an ad. Jai Lifestyle. We have a cookbook, downloadable e-cookbook. It's just $9.99. 77 pages of awesomeness, tons of Vitamix recipes. Vinny loves his Vitamix. He loves his raw veggies in the Vitamix. So check that out. I have an athletic recovery supplement product called Jai Repair. It's a tri-blend of three different plant-based proteins. Hemp protein, which is awesome. Sprouted brown rice protein, and pea protein. It also has L-glutamine. It has some powerful antioxidants like grape skin extracts and resveratrol. And it has the kicker ingredient, the cordyceps mushrooms extracts,

• 1:44:21Rich Roll?

  which have been shown to help.

• 1:44:23Speaker 01

  Which product is that?

• 1:44:24Rich Roll?

  It's called Jai Repair.

• 1:44:26Speaker 01

  Is that the protein? That's not the protein supplement?

• 1:44:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it is.

• 1:44:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's good stuff.

• 1:44:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's good. Do you have some? I'll get you some.

• 1:44:33Speaker 01

  Rich, I was helping you with an ad.

• 1:44:36Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna send you a case just for saying that, Vinny. Um.

• 1:44:40Speaker 01

  Does it have sugar in it?

• 1:44:41Rich Roll?

  There's just the tiniest amount to cut the flavor, but it's super insignificant.

• 1:44:48Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:44:48Rich Roll?

  So there is. I wouldn't, you know, it's not completely sugar-free, because you'll see it on the, you know, you'll see it on the nutrition label. And I've gotten people who have emailed me and said, "What are you doing? There's some, there's some fructose in here." And it's, it's so minute, uh, that it really is just to, uh, to, um, cut the flavor. So it's, it's not gonna cause any sugar problems for you. Uh, and the kicker ingredient in it, cordyceps mushroom extracts, which I have found to be very helpful in, uh, boosting my endurance by improving my body's ability to efficiently metabolize, or metabolize is

• 1:45:29Rich Roll?

  the wrong word, to efficiently utilize oxygen, um, improving lung efficiency, etc. So, we have that. We have a meditation program, Julie's meditation program called Jai Release. We have a vitamin B12 supplement, uh, which is a spray, which is great. I'll get you some of that too, Vinny.

• 1:45:47Speaker 01

  I love B12.

• 1:45:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:48Speaker 01

  I'm a big, well, that's the other thing my doctor said, load up on Bs. I never asked her why, she just said, take a B100 every day.

• 1:45:55Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 1:45:56Speaker 01

  So I'm a big B fan.

• 1:45:57Rich Roll?

  Cool. So yeah, so check out the Jai B12 on jaielifestyle.com. And we're working on some new stuff coming towards you soon. Uh, we're designing a cycling kit. Should be pretty cool, Jai Lifestyle Cycling Kit, some t-shirts for swag. And what else? Uh, if you want to support the show, oh, you know what? If you go on jaielifestyle.com and you've never been there before, you subscribe, you get a free seven recipe download. So there's your added incentive to go check it out. If you want to support the show, uh, click on the Amazon banner ad on the right-hand side on the blog or podcast page of ritual.com.

• 1:46:38Rich Roll?

  It won't cost you a penny extra if you're going to be buying something on Amazon, uh, to visit Amazon by clicking on that link first and it'll throw a few nickels in our, in our cup and, uh, keep the bandwidth flowing so I can bring people like Vinnie to you. I hope you enjoyed the show. The whole idea behind doing this is to, like I said, broaden people's perspectives, help empower you to think outside the box and become the master of your own physical, spiritual and mental domain, to reach within your side yourself and unlock that dream that's sitting inside of you and put it into action, put some energy behind it and become

• 1:47:22Rich Roll?

  the best, most authentic version of yourself. So I'll be coming back at you soon. Vinnie, thanks for joining the show.

• 1:47:31Speaker 01

  Thanks for having me.

• 1:47:32Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Peace. Plants.