How To Live More In Alignment With Your Values With Gene Baur

We are all born compassionate. And we carry this powerful, inherent trait through adulthood. But often this deeply ingrained impulse becomes repressed — quelled by childhood trauma; eroded by social constraints; overwhelmed by the harried gestalt of daily life and the denial that accompanies our compulsion for convenience and immediate gratification. Today's guest is a powerful reminder of who we really are. A call to action to better align this core value of compassion with the countless choices we make daily that dictate how we live our lives. To be more mindful about not only what we what eat, but what we do; the hows and whys behind our behavior; and the implications of personal choice on both ourselves and the world at large. How to describe my friend Gene Baur? Hailed as the “conscience of the food movement” by TIME magazine, this is a guy who has spent the last 25 years traveling extensively around the country, campaigning to raise awareness about the abuses of industrialized factory farming and our current food system. Humanitarian, environmentalist, activist, undercover investigator and best-selling author, Gene is most well known as the president & co-founder of Farm Sanctuary. The first animal rescue organization dedicated to farmed animals, Farm Sanctuary shelters in New York and California provide rescue, refuge, and adoption for hundreds of farm animals each year, enabling visitors to connect with farm animals as emotional, intelligent individuals. Gene believes these animals stand as ambassadors for the billions on factory farms who have no voice, and he has dedicated his career to advocating on their behalf. He's so handsome it makes me jealous, yet I can't help but love everything about this guy. He's a beautiful soul. And he's a darn good plant-based marathon runner & ironman athlete to boot. Now for some context. This show is no stranger to people with strong points of view. But Gene was the first true animal rights activist I interviewed (in case you missed it, you can listen to our premier conversation from June 2013 here. I’m the first to admit that my original reasons for going vegan were far more selfish than ethical. Understanding that animal rights isn't exactly everyone's cup of tea, I admit to having some trepidation about publishing that interview. But that was 2013. In truth, that conversation changed me. Gene really disarmed what I would consider willful blindness when it came to so many facets regarding how our world functions. Today I have a very different lens on the issues that spark Gene's passion. Today, I can't imagine not sharing Gene's perspective. For me this marks personal growth. The evolution-revolution that is the hallmark of this journey I undertook eight years ago. Because the more educated I become about how our food system actually functions to deliver meals to our plates, the more interested and outspoken I have become about advocating for change. And the more strident and diligent I have become about aligning my daily personal decisions and consumer choices with a more compassionate and communitarian set of core values. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:06Speaker 01

  You know, change is scary. And I think we're now facing more and more opportunities, though, for people to be less scared because, you know, we are social animals. We rub off on those around us. We do what those around us do. So the more people there are who are eating well and eating plant-based, that's going to rub off. And I think ultimately, the big change is going to happen through ripples in the grassroots, person-to-person, individual-to-individual, sharing podcasts, sharing books, sharing information, sharing recipes, and ultimately, helping each other live better.

• 1:41Rich Roll?

  That's my friend Gene Bauer of Farm Sanctuary. And yes, indeed, this is the Rich Roll Podcast.

• 1:57Rich Roll?

  The Rich Roll Podcast. Hey, everybody. I'm Rich Roll and I have a mission. It's simple, but it's powerful to help you live and be better, to become who you really are. And to do this, each week, I sit down with some of the best and the brightest, the most forward-thinking, paradigm-busting minds across all categories of life, health, and excellence to serve and assist you, and me, of course, in discovering, uncovering, unlocking, and unleashing our best, most authentic selves. Thank you so much for subscribing to the show on iTunes. Thank you for spreading the word to your friends and your colleagues

• 2:40Rich Roll?

  on social media at The Water Cooler. Thank you for subscribing to my newsletter, and thank you for clicking through the Amazon banner ad at richroll.com for all your Amazon purchases. We love it. Thank you. Got Gene Bauer of Farm Sanctuary on the podcast today. Great guy, great talk, coming up in a couple few, but first.

• 3:09Rich Roll?

  All right, you guys. Gene Bauer. I love this guy. He's such a cool guy. Humanitarian activist, environmentalist, marathon runner, Ironman athlete, president and founder of Farm Sanctuary, the first animal rescue organization dedicated completely to farmed animals. Gene was an early guest on the podcast back in episode 35 from June of 2013. So if you're new to the show, or you missed that one, I highly suggest you go back and check that out. It's an excellent listen. And Gene's got a new book coming out this week. It comes out April 7. You should all check it out. It's called Living the Farm Sanctuary Life. It's a great book. I got an early copy of it. And there's a lot of similarities between

• 3:49Rich Roll?

  his book and our book. He's got a lot of great recipes, but a lot of kind of lifestyle advice, tenets and principles around how to live more compassionately. And what's super cool is that On Wednesday night, Gene is going to be a guest on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart to talk about his new book. I'm so excited for him. I think that's just so cool. And I'm excited about what that means for the movement, that he could get such mainstream, you know, broad airwaves to talk about things that he's passionate about. We recorded this podcast about a month ago, but I saw Gene last week in Marshall, Texas, when I was at Health Fest. And he told me the whole story of how the whole Jon Stewart thing came to be, which

• 4:32Rich Roll?

  I thought was really cool. And basically, Jon and his wife were vacationing, and in this vacation house that they were renting, somebody had left behind a copy of Gene's first book. They read it, they loved it. And since then, Jon's wife became an active supporter of Farm Sanctuary. They came up and visited his farm in upstate New York, and they've become acquainted. And it's just so cool that Jon has invited Gene to be on his show to talk about it. So set your TiVo's, everybody, or tune into Comedy Central on Wednesday night. Do not miss that. In this episode, we talk about a lot of things, but it's kind of oriented around Gene's five tenets or principles that he has identified for living what he calls the Farm Sanctuary

• 5:17Rich Roll?

  life, which essentially boils down to how to live and eat more in alignment with our core inherent values. We get into Gene's personal story. We talk about factory farming, the legislative landscapes surrounding animal agriculture, the aspirational aspects of living more compassionately, how it's an ongoing evolution for everybody, and how the culture is really starting to shift and embrace an ethos that Gene, you know, this guy's been living this stuff and advocating for it for the better part of his entire adult life. So it's cool that it's now kind of reaching this populist, kind of zeitgeist, tipping point moment. Casper. Come on, you guys. You know them, you love them.

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• 7:25Rich Roll?

  That's www.casper.com/roll. Do it up. Okay, let's wrap it up with Gene.

• 7:39Rich Roll?

  Well, we're gonna both be in Marshall, right? You're going to that?

• 7:43Speaker 01

  Marshall, Texas, that's right.

• 7:44Rich Roll?

  So I'm hoping to get some cool interviews with some people there because anytime you go where there's a concentration of like-minded, powerful activist personalities.

• 7:54Speaker 01

  The mayor of Marshall, Texas is a vegan.

• 7:56Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 7:56Speaker 01

  And he's really making this an issue in that part of the world. It's so beautiful to see.

• 8:00Rich Roll?

  Have you been to that event before?

• 8:02Speaker 01

  I have. I was there a few years ago. And it's so great to see people in the community, businesses and others that are starting to take these issues more seriously because the mayor is really an advocate. And people are listening to him and he's bringing in speakers and he's creating a discussion and making people think about their food and all the benefits that can come from changing the way we eat.

• 8:23Rich Roll?

  It's amazing how, you know, he became so passionate that literally he's, he has shifted the whole town, you know, like the whole town is all about it. From what I understand, I can't wait to go and check it out.

• 8:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's so exciting. And so when you see little pockets like that, I know when I travel, I see that, I'm sure for you as well, just seeing people in various communities that are making a difference and speaking out and raising awareness and encouraging others to live healthfully and well and happily and, um, you know, live in a way that feels good. And that's something that this, you know, eating plants instead of animals is such a sensible lifestyle and more and more people are now starting to embrace it and being very enthusiastic about it, too.

• 9:02Rich Roll?

  Well, it's, uh, it's come a long way since 1985 and, and your, uh, you know, van and selling veggie hot dogs at Grateful Dead concerts, right?

• 9:12Speaker 01

  Yes, yes. Well, you know, the, the Grateful Dead are playing, you know, this summer in Chicago and we're hoping to have the veggie dogs there in some form, you know, so we'll see what happens.

• 9:22Rich Roll?

  In the same recipe, like how do those taste?

• 9:24Speaker 01

  They were canned. They were, uh, linkettes. I think they're now called, uh, I don't even know what they're called, but they were loma linda linkettes and they were in cans and they're pretty salty and mainly wheat gluten. You know, I, I would still eat them, but you know, I wouldn't eat them as much as I used to.

• 9:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but they still, there's, they still exist. They're still around.

• 9:46Speaker 01

  I think so. I honestly haven't seen them for a while. I haven't looked, but, uh, they were.

• 9:51Rich Roll?

  You could show up and find some other, you know, deadheads from back in the day. Remember us?

• 9:56Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 9:57Rich Roll?

  Look how far we've come.

• 9:59Speaker 01

  Oh my gosh, yeah. Maybe the stadium, if Soldier Field sold veggie dogs, wouldn't that be a statement?

• 10:04Rich Roll?

  Right, right.

• 10:04Speaker 01

  That's what we're kind of hoping happens. And, um, but the, uh, the linkettes, you know, they were, you know, 40 to a can. So we would travel with our van and it was very easy to do. And, uh, but, you know, we're not doing that now and, and hopefully that the stadium will sell them. That would be beautiful.

• 10:20Rich Roll?

  Well, it's quite a trajectory. I mean, we talked about it at length in the last time we spoke, so I don't want to retread too much of that. But at the same time, I think it bears notice that, you know, that's a long road from, from that day to kind of the awareness and what's happening right now and the whole vegan plant-based movement and what's going on with, uh, environmental awareness and conservation and, and diet and health and, and. You know, to you being on the pages of Time Magazine, answering 10 questions, you know, it was like so cool to see that, like, it's amazing. It must just feel like, wow, you know, like, I was on to something back then, when no one was paying attention, and you just stuck

• 11:00Rich Roll?

  with it, you know, from the early days until now, and, uh, and that's gotta be quite affirming.

• 11:06Speaker 01

  It feels so good to see the kind of energy around this movement now. And I think, you know, in addition to animal activists, we have environmental people, we have health people, we have athletes like yourself who are setting an amazing example. We have chefs that are creating food that is so delicious that nobody can say that you give things up by becoming a vegan and eating plants instead of animals. So, there's so many great things around this movement right now.

• 11:31Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. I just, uh, was talking to a friend of mine the other day, longtime vegan, plant-based guy, you know, has been to every restaurant, like, he's eaten at every vegan, you know, he's well-traveled and everything, had never gone to Crossroads in LA, and went there for the first time the other week, and it just blew his mind. You know, he blew his mind. He blew, it blew his mind that, A, it was filled with people that weren't vegans that just were enjoying it, and he was just amazed at the creations that, that Tal could come up with, you know. And of course, that's very gourmet, it's very high-end and all of that, but just the fact that it even exists at all is like, amazing.

• 12:08Speaker 01

  It's art. It's art. And, and it, it shows clearly that you, you can have everything you want, all the flavors, all the textures, by eating plants instead of animals. And, you know, I think that there still is, to some extent, a, a general prejudice against vegan food and vegan living. And so, if somebody tries something that's vegan and they don't like it, they will sometimes conclude incorrectly that, well, vegan food's terrible, I don't like it, after one thing, you know. But if somebody eats a, a bad dish...

• 12:36Rich Roll?

  Hopefully, it's not your veggie dog from the van.

• 12:39Speaker 01

  It might have been back in the day.

• 12:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You're doing more harm than good.

• 12:44Speaker 01

  I sometimes wonder, you know, because if, you know, I used to always think seeing something vegan on the menu was a good thing, but now I'm increasingly thinking it better taste good. You know, because if people are gonna, gonna try it, it better be something that they enjoy. So that, that, that the existing prejudice against this kind of food doesn't kick in.

• 13:02Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Especially if you label it as such, like, you know, if you, look, if you put a label on a bunch of kale and say, this is vegan, then people are making like a, a judgment about this whole lifestyle and diet based on this food as opposed to just handing them this and saying, here, why don't you eat this without making any kind of, you know.

• 13:22Speaker 01

  Judgment.

• 13:22Rich Roll?

  Pronouncement about what it is.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Yes, that's very true. And I think that's something that's happening too. Restaurants that are vegan are not broadly proclaiming to be vegan. And people are trying it because that prejudice that they have doesn't come forward. And so I think a lot of the prejudices against vegans are starting to fall away. You know, one of them is that the food is not tasty, for example. Another is that vegans don't get all the energy they need to do triathlons and to do other incredible athletic feats. So that's another thing that I think is starting to fall away, those prejudices. Um, and that vegans are a certain type, you know, vegans span the, the spectrum. You know, there are left leaning vegans, there are right leaning vegans, there are very health oriented vegans,

• 14:09Speaker 01

  there are some that are not so.

• 14:11Rich Roll?

  Are there any vegans in the Tea Party?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  There probably are, believe it or not.

• 14:15Rich Roll?

  That would be interesting. I'd like to get that guy on the podcast. How's that work?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  I definitely know there are some conservatives who are vegans who have spoken out, in fact, against what happens to animals on factory farms and who have spoken out against the, you know, humans mistreatment and disrespect for other life on the planet. And so there, you know, this does really span the spectrum.

• 14:39Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's not. I mean, we joke, but like truly, like a true conservative perspective, you know, why does that obviate a sense of compassion? You know, compassion transcends political affiliation, you know, so.

• 14:56Speaker 01

  Absolutely. And I think, you know, in some ways, in fact, progressive values sometimes come out of the idea of conserving nature and preserving things and holding on to things that are important. And, and I think that some of those notions can be, go in a direction that's not very healthy and becomes judgmentful and judgmental and disrespectful. But, you know, ultimately, it is about respecting nature, respecting each other, respecting other life, other animals, and living in a way that is compassionate. And, and most people are for that, you know, whatever their political.

• 15:32Rich Roll?

  You could make an argument that it is an extrapolation of the pro-life perspective.

• 15:38Speaker 01

  Absolutely. There have been stuff written on that, in fact.

• 15:40Rich Roll?

  Oh, has there? That's really interesting.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, Matthew Scully is a former speechwriter for President George W. Bush, who wrote something along those lines, saying that those who are pro-life should also be pro-animal life and that logically, they're very much aligned, you know. So, you know, there's a lot of different perspectives, you know. And then, of, of course, you know, you have to look beyond, you know, I mean, the, the lives of women also matter, you know, so this is, it's complicated.

• 16:09Rich Roll?

  Right, yeah, it's not, it's not a black and white thing.

• 16:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 16:12Rich Roll?

  All right, so no Ironmans, no, no marathons? That's what, that was the question.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  I don't have any Ironman triathlons on the horizon. I've got this book coming out, so I'm focusing on that. I have signed up for the New York City Marathon in November.

• 16:30Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's cool.

• 16:31Speaker 01

  That is something I have that I'm looking forward to, and hopefully, we'll be able to get some time to train for that.

• 16:35Rich Roll?

  Hopefully.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Yes. And how about you? Do you got any coming up?

• 16:38Rich Roll?

  Uh, I got a book coming out, too. That's my, that's my ultra-distance event right now.

• 16:44Speaker 01

  I'm with you there, yeah.

• 16:45Rich Roll?

  I'm not signed up for any races. I mean, I, I get out and I train every morning and every day, and I stay fit and active. But it's not like at that level where, you know, it's razor-sharp or completely focused the way that it. Has to be, at least in my mind, for me to show up at one of those races, which I should just get over myself, really.

• 17:04Speaker 01

  I mean, sure, when you're training for a race, like the kind of races you've done, you really do need to be very disciplined and really on it, you know?

• 17:13Rich Roll?

  I think my personality is hardwired to kind of approach them that way, but I don't want to show up half-cocked, you know, like I want to be full on. But I know there's a lot, like, look at Dean Karnaz's or any, he shows up and runs marathons all the time, he runs them with people, he just goes out and has fun. And I think that maybe I'm deprising myself of that kind of an experience. But I also feel pressure, like also, being the vegan athlete or a vegan athlete, like, I feel like if I show up, I got to be on point, you know what I mean? Because people are like, oh, well, you know, if he doesn't race to his level or, you know, what we expect him to do, then that is a reflection of his lifestyle or his diet. And so that kind of plays into my thinking and screws my head up a little bit.

• 17:57Speaker 01

  There is pressure, especially an elite athlete like you. Now, for me, I'm just a layperson, so if I finish an Ironman, that's good enough.

• 18:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but you got to finish. You can't be like a DNF-ing, you know what I mean?

• 18:07Speaker 01

  You're the guy from Time Magazine, so... But I don't need to finish it way fast. I just need to finish it reasonably well, you know? Whereas you got to kind of push it to another level. And so I totally hear that.

• 18:18Rich Roll?

  I know, but I want to get back, I mean, because I haven't raced since 2011, you know? It's silly. I can't like, there's always going to be things in life that are busy, that are, you know, life's getting busier and busier, and that's a good thing, and that's a gift, and, you know, it's a result of, you know, working really hard and this movement and all that kind of stuff. But like, I keep thinking, oh, well, that day will come where things will calm down and I can train again. It's like, I don't think that day's coming.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  But in the meantime, you're right, like you say, you maintain a certain level of fitness, and then also then there's the whole balance thing, you know? Because, you know, it is. You know, when I was doing the Ironman training, you know, it was hard to get time for many other things, you know? So I think a balance where you're maintaining a fitness and healthy and everything, but also doing other, you know, inspiring... Positive things is a good, feels right right now.

• 19:10Rich Roll?

  Well, if you can figure out how to balance everything, let me know. I'm definitely not good at that.

• 19:15Speaker 01

  It's a process that I'm still working on it too. It's a process.

• 19:19Rich Roll?

  So this is exciting. The book comes out April 7th.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  April 7th, that's right.

• 19:23Rich Roll?

  It's exciting. I love the book. It's beautiful. And it's interesting. It's, you know, because it's not,

• 19:31Rich Roll?

  it's not, you know, it's not just a cookbook. It's not just a nonfiction kind of primer. It's sort of a whole bunch of different things. Like you really get into this lifestyle. You get into how you build Farm Sanctuary, you know, the value system upon which Farm Sanctuary was built and the principles upon which you conduct your life. And then all these great, like, very easily digestible tips and tools to kind of, you know, direct your, direct your own lifestyle. And then it follows up with all these, you know, amazing vegan recipes.

• 20:04Speaker 01

  Beautiful recipes.

• 20:05Rich Roll?

  It's great, you know, so, yeah, the book's really beautiful. The photography is amazing. You should be really proud. It's exciting stuff.

• 20:11Speaker 01

  You know, I'm very, very happy with it and very excited for it to get out on the world. And it's doing very well so far online in the pre-sales. And we've got some great endorsements. And, you know, it really is about living a lifestyle that you can feel good about. And it's, you know, with Farm Sanctuary, one of our organizational values is we speak to people where they are on their own journeys and encourage people to, you know, each day, try to do a little better and try to live in a way that is aligned with your own compassionate values. Because most people are humane. And also we encourage people to eat food that nourishes us instead of food that makes us sick, like unfortunately, most people do in the United States. And, and then the book has these, like, 100 incredible vegan recipes from some of the top chefs and cookbook authors around the country and restaurant owners, you know,

• 20:56Speaker 01

  Tal Ronan, for example, from Crossroads, has some recipes in there. And it's, it's, it's beautiful. And this lifestyle is not about deprivation. It's about living inspired and living in a way that is, you feel good about, and others do too. And it becomes contagious. You know, that's the other really neat thing about it. You know, when you go out and have this great food with other people. They enjoy it and it's you don't give anything up. You actually embrace an ethic and healthy food and just a healthy way of looking at the world with respect for other animals in nature instead of, you know, how we grow up, exploiting other animals in nature and really without thinking about it. And so this is just about being respectful and living mindfully and living in alignment with our own values and interests.

• 21:40Rich Roll?

  And you kind of lay out these values in the book. I mean, you have, what is it, five values that you kind of orient around, you know, orient the book around, the spine of the book around. I mean, you know, can we get into those a little bit?

• 21:52Speaker 01

  Sure. The five tenets are, first of all, to live in alignment with your values, you know, because so often people live in a dissonant way where they're, for example, eating meat from these factory farms and they really hate what happens on factory farms, but they're still eating this meat and supporting the system. So there's a dissonance and so sometimes they will say, don't tell me, I don't want to know about it, it's too upsetting. So that's.

• 22:15Rich Roll?

  Right, I think it's almost like, it's not even that, that they don't like what's going on, like they don't think about it. There's a, there's a conscious effort to not think about it and so they don't think about it, so it doesn't even occur to them.

• 22:27Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 22:28Rich Roll?

  You know, it doesn't come up consciously.

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Right, and there's an interest in not having it come up because it's painful and difficult and ugly to look at. And also I think people are afraid that there is not a solution. They feel that they have to eat meat and if they have to, they don't want to recognize just how harmful it is. And, but the fact is, we can live without eating meat, we can live without eating animal foods and that, to me, is a very positive news and people can act on it.

• 22:56Rich Roll?

  Right, well, just kind of camping out on this issue right here for a little bit. You know, I come across, I have friends that are, you know, health conscious and we have lively discussions about diet and lifestyle and have one friend in common, very good friend, and, and he always says to me, you know, I'm not vegan, but, you know, I live super healthy and, and, you know, I make sure that, that the meat that I eat, you know, like I don't eat meat, tons of meat, but when I do eat meat, I make sure that it's, that it's sustainably raised, it's, it's humanely raised, it's grass fed, it's all these good things. And, and that gives him a certain. Comfort level with it's sort of, I think it's like a, it's like a, a pressure valve

• 23:39Rich Roll?

  release on that dissonance for him. And I say, well, we can talk about that. I mean, I'm not so sure, you know, when you talk about humane, you know, like when you're talking about humanely raised, like, what does that mean? Like, what does that actually mean? Like, what are we talking about? Like, he's like, well, I know the farmer. And I'm like, all right, well, have you gone to the farm? Like, do you know what's actually going on? I mean, at the end of the day, the animal's still slaughtered for your food. So, but let's set that part aside and just look at the living conditions of, of the animal. Like, what are we really talking about here? And I, and that's not a comfortable discussion.

• 24:09Speaker 01

  But I think asking the questions is important, you know, asking the questions, because sometimes people will say, well, they're raised humanely, and they want to believe it, and so will somewhat delude themselves.

• 24:20Rich Roll?

  The inquiry ends there, though. Just because there's a label, or somebody told them that that's the case, then that's the, that's, because that's, okay, I can hang my hat on that, and I really don't have to look any further.

• 24:30Speaker 01

  That's very true. And then, like you say, that, you know, is a pressure release valve for the dissonance, when it's still an obfuscation of reality, in many cases, because so many of these humane labels sound a lot better than they are. And producers know that, and marketers and retailers know that, and they actually sell this meat for a much higher price, because the market and the demand for it is so strong compared to that for factory farming. So, um, yeah, there is this ongoing discussion, and a lot of people do say they eat certain kinds of meat, but I don't think they really think that much about it still. And, and so asking the questions is, you know, do you really know how they're raised? Um, is, I think, very valuable and very important to create

• 25:13Speaker 01

  awareness and an understanding of the reality of it. Because even if an animal is raised in a very nice situation, they are still sent to the slaughterhouse, and they still do have their throats cut, and they still want to live ultimately. And so we've, you know, taken their life from them. For what good? And, and I would suggest that this is not only bad for the animal, but it is bad for us. You know, can you imagine what it would be like to have a job where what you were doing, you know, for hours every day was, you know, stringing up animals by their back leg and taking a knife and cutting their throat? I mean, that's not good for people either.

• 25:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, a couple of observations on that. I mean, first of all, getting back to this, this sort of idea of labels, like whether it's humanely raised, or cage-free, or farm-fresh, or what I mean, if it's certified organic, that means one thing. I'm not sure it quite means what it used to mean. It's a very politicized term that has, you know, sort of been co-opted by big food companies, because for the very reasons you just mentioned, which is that they know that if they have that label on there, they can charge more, or that's a coveted thing to the consumer. But some of these other labels are not regulated at all. Like, I mean, is if something says, well, certainly farm-fresh means nothing, but cage-free, or natural.

• 26:31Speaker 01

  Naturals are really good. Natural means nothing.

• 26:33Rich Roll?

  And even grass-fed. I mean, is grass-fed, I would imagine, is kind of a sliding scale? Like, you know, every farm's different. Is there any kind of oversight, or like, minimum, you know, kind of requirement for something being called grass-fed?

• 26:47Speaker 01

  It is a sliding scale. And oftentimes, there are accommodations for, well, it's snowing this time of year, so therefore, they can't be eating grass, so we can feed them something else.

• 26:55Rich Roll?

  So they can actually be grain-fed for part of the year?

• 26:58Speaker 01

  Well, I think different certifiers will allow different things. But I think with grass-fed, you know, you think of an animal out on pasture grazing, and so...

• 27:05Rich Roll?

  Beautiful, just acres and acres of pastoral.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  Exactly, exactly. And most grass-fed animals are fed grain towards the end of their lives. There are some that will feed them forage, or some hay, or something that is not grain, but oftentimes, they are fed grain.

• 27:23Rich Roll?

  Why is that?

• 27:24Speaker 01

  Because they grow faster, the meat is marbled. It is something that more consumers expect, as opposed to a more tough, muscly meat, you know? So, you know, grain, grain is commonly used for grass-fed animals.

• 27:41Rich Roll?

  Interesting. Yeah, I didn't know that. But, and I don't want to get too far afield, because we're just on the first of the five tenets, or whatever. But this is really interesting. I mean, I think that another reason why people really gravitate towards this idea of grass-fed is there's also this built-in idea that somehow, because it's grass-fed, it's more ecologically sustainable. And when I think about that, I think... Well, I guess, sort of like, if you just sort of don't think it through, I could see why you could go, "Oh yeah, that makes sense, because it's a smaller farm, it's not a huge industrialized factory farm." But, factory farms, if they do one thing well, it's create

• 28:24Rich Roll?

  economies of scale. Like, that animal is only gonna live the shortest life possible, they're gonna feed it the least amount of resources and water, etc., to get it to the point where they can turn it into food. Whereas, a grass-fed animal is gonna live longer, it's gonna require more water, it's gonna take up more land, and it's gonna require more feed, because it's on the planet longer before it turns into food. So, to me, that makes it sound like it's less sustainable.

• 28:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:50Rich Roll?

  Am I crazy? Is that... what's going on?

• 28:53Speaker 01

  Well, you need a lot more land for grazing than you do for raising animals more intensively in the factory farming system. I mean, both of them are very wasteful in their own ways. But, one thing that also happens on these extensive grass-fed type of operations, is you still overcrowd the space. So, you have grass that sometimes is overgrazed, and big problems with that. And you have also manure from animals that get into waterways and into natural systems, when, again, they're packed too densely, which is common, because it's profitable. And you also have federal lands that are rented by ranchers at far below the market price.

• 29:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  Which is a whole nother subsidy for this industry. But, the way it works now is most cattle start on the range, and they're born at these cow-calf operations, which tend to be fairly small. But then, they are sold and go to feedlots, where they're fattened on grain. That's the typical life of a beef animal. And so, the industry will say, "Well, my animals are grass-fed." And technically, it's true, at first, because they start their life on a pasture, with being born to a cow. Outside, but then they go to a feedlot. And that's what happens to animals that are exploited for beef. Other animals like chickens and pigs are much more intensively raised from the morning they

• 30:16Speaker 01

  they're the day they come out onto this earth till the day they're killed. They're, you know, born in hatcheries if they're chickens. They're they're born in these confined enclosures if they're pigs. And they never go outside, never even see nature. So the industries vary quite widely. But in every case, they are inefficient because growing plant foods to feed to animals requires a lot more energy than just growing plant foods and eating them directly. And that's sort of the big environmental reality of it. And and sometimes the beef industry will say that cattle out grazing are using land that we can't use for anything else anyway. But to that, I would suggest we don't necessarily need to use every single inch of land.

• 31:01Speaker 01

  You know, I think we should use arable land to grow food for people to eat instead of using arable land to go grow corn and soybeans to feed livestock.

• 31:10Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 31:10Speaker 01

  And that would just be much more efficient. So then we don't need to go into these marginal lands that the beef industry says we that they're using in an efficient way, when in fact, it isn't efficient because they're over grazing in many cases, they're disrupting ecosystems. And it's a system that, you know, needs to be just completely rethought. And and it ultimately boils down to consumers, though, just not buying this stuff, whether it be grass fed or factory farmed or quote natural, which what natural beef can come from cows who are implanted with hormones, raised in feedlots and fed grain. So this term natural is completely bogus.

• 31:45Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. Well, when it becomes profitable for these companies to do something different, they will do so, just like the way you're seeing dairy dairy company investment in plant based milks, because they see the market shifting in that direction.

• 31:58Speaker 01

  Huge, totally.

• 32:00Rich Roll?

  But just kind of back on this sort of sustainability rant. I mean, who's the guy who, I mean, forget about the just sort of the efficiencies of the whole, it's it's so insanely inefficient, the whole thing is ridiculous. The idea of how we raise these animals for food, the the amount of resources it requires and the footprint that it creates.

• 32:24Rich Roll?

  You know, on our planet and on our economy, et cetera, you know, all the way down the line, like, it doesn't make any sense at all. We're just doing it because this is the way we've always done it, you know, but if you, if some alien had landed here and said, this is how you're creating food for humans, like, that doesn't make any sense at all, you know, like,

• 32:38Speaker 01

  doesn't.

• 32:39Rich Roll?

  But we just, we don't have, we don't have that perspective. And I think, like, we were talking before the podcast about the documentary, Caspiracy, I had those filmmakers on the, on the podcast a while ago, you've seen the movie, but they do a really good job of kind of elucidating all of that, where you can kind of see, like, yeah, this is kind of nutty.

• 32:56Speaker 01

  It's totally nutty, just how inefficient and backwards this animal farming business is, and how, you know, mainstream environmental groups really aren't addressing it, and our society really has not addressed it. But hopefully that'll change. And I think Caspiracy is going to play a big role.

• 33:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's going to be exciting. You know, still so few people have seen it, but that's going to change soon. There's some things afoot with that movie, which are pretty exciting. And, and hopefully, a lot of Americans will be watching it soon. We'll have more information on that later. But one thing that, that was raised in that movie, and I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on this, is that idea of, there's this other idea that, that we can use grazing to, to, what's the word?

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Sequester carbon or something?

• 33:45Rich Roll?

  Well, well, we have this problem with soil depletion, right? And that a solution to that is to, is to graze cattle on grasslands. And somehow, as a result of that, we're putting nutrients back into the soil, and that this is actually a solution rather than a problem.

• 34:02Speaker 01

  You know, I think-

• 34:02Rich Roll?

  Are you familiar with that argument?

• 34:03Speaker 01

  I, I am, yeah. Yeah, I think sometimes what happens is, we look at one situation that is just terrible, like cattle overgrazing and despoiling, you know, all the vegetation, ending it with lots of topsoil erosion and polluted rivers and waterways. And so that's bad. So we lighten up the amount of grazing that happens. So now the cattle are still grazing, but they're not totally wrecking it. So compared to that totally wrecked situation, it's better. But is it optimal and is it best, is, I think, the question that needs to be asked. And- From my perspective, it's absolutely not the best. I think having a native ecosystem with a native species is the best. You know, all farm animals in North America have been

• 34:45Speaker 01

  imported with the exception of the turkey. All of them have been brought here. And so we're creating false ecosystems to maintain them and to grow them in by the billions, literally. And in the case of cattle, you know, rather than having them running around the prairies, it'd be nice if there were bison running around the prairies with their natural predators and their, you know, in the natural ecosystem. And that, I think, would be the ideal. And it's a long way down the road, for sure, but it's, sometimes with industry, they will compare one bad system with another bad system that's not quite as bad, and say it is an improvement, which it would be compared to the really bad one, but it's still not the ideal. And oftentimes, I think that, you know, we sort

• 35:27Speaker 01

  of get into these boxes of selection A or selection B without recognizing there's C, D, E, and all the way to Z.

• 35:35Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, there's also, there's this idea that, that, that if everybody suddenly went vegan overnight, which of course would never happen, like, oh, there would just be animals everywhere, you know, like, we would, it would be uncontrollable. We must eat these animals. This is population control. And it's like, no, you don't understand. We're raising these animals specifically for food. If we turn the volume down on that or shut it down, there's not going to be all these animals because the production line would stop.

• 36:06Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 36:06Rich Roll?

  I mean, these are not animals that are just, we're like, we're like wrangling them out in the prairie to come into the feedlot. Like, these are, you know, bred from day one to be sort of these receptacles of energy that humans can then consume.

• 36:21Speaker 01

  Exactly right. And we mass produce them, we artificially inseminate them. In the case of turkeys, they've been so genetically altered that they can't even reproduce naturally anymore. So all commercially raised turkeys are now products of artificial insemination. So, yeah, these are animals whose lives we completely control. We've created genetic breeds for specific purposes, like chickens to grow so fast and so large, that their hearts and lungs have a hard time supporting that growth rate. They reach slaughter weight in like six weeks. So these are very young animals. And even though they are killed at slaughter so young, Every year, millions still die of heart attacks because their hearts can't support that massive growth rate. But it's still profitable to the industry because they're raising them literally by the billions.

• 37:06Speaker 01

  That's crazy that an animal would have a heart attack at six weeks old. Yeah. Because it's being fattened so quickly. Yes, their hearts and lungs cannot support that incredible growth rate. And then also, they have a hard time standing because they're so heavy that their legs cannot support that weight. And they have been genetically bred to have large breasts because breast meat is the most profitable. So they also are anatomically disfigured, so they kind of tilt forward. And so that's another stressor on their legs and on their bodies and on their hearts. So these are the kind of animals that we have mass-produced. And they are not about to overrun the world. You know, they're completely dependent on us and they're not native species. They can't, I mean, a lot of them can't even reproduce naturally, right? Right, absolutely.

• 37:50Speaker 01

  They've been sort of, that's been like bred out of them? Well, in the case of turkeys, their breasts are so large that they cannot mount to reproduce. So that's the situation there. In the case of others, they still can reproduce naturally, but it's not an easy process for some of them. And in the case of chickens, for example, that are raised for meat, the roosters are so big that they will oftentimes rip up the backs of the hens when they jump on them. And so they now have to use certain contraptions to prevent that from happening. So it's an industry that has created animals for specific production traits without recognizing

• 38:29Speaker 01

  animal well-being, without really any thought about other consequences than to get as much meat to the market as quickly and cheaply as possible. And the animals are just commodities in their mind, not living, feeling creatures. So there's this mentality, this lack of respect, a lack of understanding for animals. And I think it also feeds over into our lack of respect for nature, our lack of respect for consumers, where the industry will sell us things, you know, making statements that are not true, and just look at the marketplace and human beings even as commodities. Like what would be, like, what's an example of that? Of how we're misled? Right. Well, I mean, you know, the advertising campaigns, you know, beef is, you know, does a body good, or... No, that's milk.

• 39:14Speaker 01

  Or, or, no. Beef was for dinner. Okay. And pork is the other white meat, right? That's right. So milk is a bad thing.

• 39:24Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 39:25Speaker 01

  And then also sort of this.

• 39:26Rich Roll?

  Get your misrepresentations straight.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  I know, I get them all mixed up. The dairy one, this notion that we need to drink cow's milk to get calcium so we don't get osteoporosis is not true. You know, we drink a lot of cow's milk in this country and we get a lot of osteoporosis. So these are the kinds of misunderstandings that are actively promoted to promote the consumption of these products. And one of the things that the dairy industry will do, like in the school lunch program, for example, is it will say that kids need to be drinking more cow's milk because it's better for them than soda pop. So here you have another example where you take a couple of bad things and say this one's not as bad as that one.

• 40:07Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  Water would be better than both, for example, you know?

• 40:11Rich Roll?

  Coca-Cola, is that better than Red Bull or?

• 40:14Speaker 01

  I know, right?

• 40:14Rich Roll?

  It's on a draw.

• 40:15Speaker 01

  It could be that kind of thing, right? It could be like, you know, this, you know, and they could come up with a study, shoot, to probably just show that Coke is better than something and therefore.

• 40:23Rich Roll?

  It's truly like a scene out of Idiocracy. Did you ever see that?

• 40:26Speaker 01

  I didn't, but I've heard.

• 40:29Rich Roll?

  It's, uh, yeah, that's amazing. Well, I mean, I lost my train of thought. Continue for a second.

• 40:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. No, just about how these misrepresentations and how people go along with them. And we're really creatures of habit. So we do things that are put in front of us and we eat mindlessly and eat in a way that is not in our best interests. And we're killing ourselves by eating meat, milk and eggs in this country and then having to take medication for heart problems. And then to have surgery in some cases, and a lot of that could be prevented.

• 41:03Rich Roll?

  Right, I remember what I was going to say, which is that, you know, even if you remove the ethical argument out of it completely and just look at the health ramifications of how these animals are raised to.

• 41:18Rich Roll?

  End up on your plate. I mean, just let's just focus on the antibiotics, you know, that that end up in the meat and and what's what that is doing in terms of antibiotic resistance and all kinds of health problems that we're seeing.

• 41:29Speaker 01

  Absolutely. Well, I, you know, we don't actually know the full impacts. And I think there's actually an interest on the part of agribusiness and the pharmaceutical companies to not really look, you know, because once you look and you investigate and you recognize that these are the specific problems associated with these practices, then you can become liable and potentially have to pay some court, you know, findings on that. So the industry, it's sort of a don't look, don't find approach in many cases.

• 41:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, instead of like trying to invest money into a study that will establish that something is good for you or safe or will combat some disease or cure it. The idea is we're consciously going to not do that so that we can't say that we know that it's bad, right?

• 42:18Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 42:19Rich Roll?

  There's Kathy, she's taking pictures.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  It's true. It's true. And and, you know, this is a system that's so entrenched and so dug in and the pharmaceutical industry gets you coming and going. They get you on the farms. You know, most of the antibiotics produced in the US are fed to farm animals to keep them alive and growing in these horrible conditions. And then when consumers eat too much of these animal foods, we have heart disease and other problems like that. So then we need heart medication. So the pharmaceutical companies make more money there.

• 42:50Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 42:51Speaker 01

  And so there's a real interest in maintaining the status quo instead of challenging it and looking for real solutions. But those are starting to come up now and people are seeing that you can reverse heart disease. You can reverse your risk of cancer. You can reverse diabetes and it's all through food, you know, you know, the the old adage led food by thy medicine is so poignant and so timely and it's becoming more and more resonant right now.

• 43:17Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and it's beautiful to see people actually taking that and making it work in their own lives. Because it's hard. It's hard to step out of the system. You know, you're talking about You know, being mindful of your choices and the foods that you're eating. And, and we were talking with Dan before the podcast about changing your environment as opposed to trying to change your, your behavior because so many of the decisions that we make, specifically food decisions, are unconsciously driven, right? So when you look at the extent to which those decisions are made unconsciously, and then you look at this perfectly vertically integrated system where Monsanto is patenting seeds and those are the seeds that the farmers have to grow, and then they use Roundup

• 44:00Rich Roll?

  on that, and then that, then the farmers become indentured servants to these large corporations and have to keep producing these foods, even knowing that they'd rather be an organic farmer, and then we're eating these foods and we're, we're misrepresented about what's in them, and then we get sick, and then we need to go back to those companies, you know? And it just goes around and around and around, and...

• 44:21Speaker 01

  So aggravating, so maddening, and so unnecessary, and so unhealthy, and each of us, though, has the power to make new types of choices, but it's tough when you're the only one, you know? And when everybody's eating a certain way, being different is not easy. But it's becoming more common for people to challenge and question the existing food system, and to go to farmers' markets, or even to plant and grow some of their own food. And we're in the midst of a food movement now, I think, where there are more and more opportunities and more and more people recognizing the need to change, because the way things are, and have been for a number of years, are just so unhealthy and disturbing and

• 45:05Speaker 01

  harmful to our planet. And, you know, I think it's got, it is changing.

• 45:10Rich Roll?

  No, there's no question that it is. There's no question that it is. And I think what's great about it is there are so many points of entry for people to embrace it and learn about it. Like, if the environment is your thing, and that's what motivates you, and that's what inspires you, and, and provokes you into a sense of activism or action, then...

• 45:31Rich Roll?

  Where do you go? Well, you can go to eating vegan, you can go to being plant-based. Or if it's, you know, the ethical arguments, if it's the animal rights argument, if it's the health argument, if it's, there are so many ways to, but it's sort of like all roads lead to Rome, you know, they all keep coming back to this because it's really the one way of eating and, and the one lifestyle that really kind of embraces all of these things like, you know, so for me, if anything, like I get frustrated that like, when I see other people having difficulty, you know, grappling with the idea of it.

• 46:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's just so different than what most of us grew up with and we are such creatures of habit and logically it makes all the sense in the world, but I think people are emotional and people are afraid of something different and afraid of change and, and that's why I think if things are convenient and in front of, of you and, and if other people are doing it, people are more likely to do that, whatever it is. So just having more fruits and vegetables more widely available and normalizing the idea of eating veggie burgers instead of hamburgers will create a lot of change and we are starting to see it. But, you know, change is scary and I think we're now facing more and more opportunities

• 46:48Speaker 01

  though for people to be less scared because, you know, we are social animals, we rub off on those around us, we do what those around us do. So the more people there are who are eating well and eating plant-based, that's going to rub off. And I think ultimately the big change is going to happen through ripples in the grassroots, person to person, individual to individual, sharing podcasts, sharing books, sharing information, sharing recipes, and ultimately helping each other live better. And, you know, that's, feels pretty darn good. And I think most people would agree and would like to do that instead of living in denial and eating food that's not good for us and then having to get medication.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  We could live, and so this is a lifestyle that just feels so darn good and it makes so much sense. And, and I think it's contagious. More and more people are picking up on it and are trying to live in a way that they feel good about.

• 47:49Rich Roll?

  I'm just looking at the list of the other tenants of the Farm Sanctuary Life. We've kind of hit on that. I mean, it's engage in a mindful connection with animals, engage in a mindful connection with your food, eat plants for your health, eat plants for the health of the earth. You know, these are all things that we've been talking about. It's a beautiful thing. And I think it does go to, you know, that idea of the environment changing, like the environment being your interpersonal kind of immediate environment to help inform, you know, these lifestyle shifts that almost will happen unconsciously just because people around you are doing things differently. And, you know, and you see it, I mean, even with things like just the fact that Whole Foods, you know, there's more Whole Foods restaurants and whether you're buying much of your food in there

• 48:32Rich Roll?

  or not, just by going into that environment and seeing it, I think has an impact on the way people think about their relationship to the foods that they're eating.

• 48:41Speaker 01

  Absolutely. It's an example of a different sort of more mindful way of consuming food in this country. And, you know, food is perhaps our most intimate connection with the earth. You know, what we eat literally becomes us. And if we eat junk, that has an impact physically, but also, I would say emotionally and spiritually. You know, our food affects our brains. And, you know, we eat a certain way and it, and it causes, it can impair our thinking, I believe, you know, too much sugar or whatever. So, you know, our food choices have profound impacts personally, but also globally. And the great news about it, though, is everybody, every day can make choices that can make a big difference. And that's where I get a

• 49:26Speaker 01

  lot of, you know, optimism from, is the fact that each of us can make a difference, you know. In many cases, you think about wars and horrible things happening around the world, and we, it's pretty hard to figure out what we can do about it. But when it comes to all the issues surrounding our food, you know, our own health, other animals, the environment, the well-being of the planet, climate change, all these things, we can all do something by choosing to eat more plant foods. And that's the empowering part of it. It's just empowering. Um, inspiring kind of movement and I'm so, so happy about the way that happens.

• 50:00Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. And I like your, your, your choice of words there by eating more plant foods. Instead of being kind of, you know, definitive that you must, it must be this way. You must adhere to some perfectionist ideal about the way that you're eating and living your life. Otherwise you can't be a member of my team.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 50:19Rich Roll?

  And, and, and we talked about this last time a little bit, but I think it's a really important issue. And I think it's something that either turns people off or scares them. You know, this idea of having to do it perfect. And listen, you know, like just by the virtue that we're living in the United States. We're, we're, you know, rubber stamping stuff. We don't agree to if we pay taxes. Like, you know, we're part of a system. There's only so much of that we can control. We have control over, you know, certain aspects of how we live our life on a day to day basis. We can be more conscientious and conscious about those choices that we make. And that applies to, you know, the food that we're eating, the clothes that we're wearing and all those sorts of things. But we're also human beings. We're fallible. We're bred to be fallible. We make mistakes.

• 51:02Rich Roll?

  Nobody's perfect. And, and, you know, I, I see all the time, people who, who try to take a stab at this. And then, you know, a couple of weeks in, they'll, you know, find themselves eating something. Maybe they didn't think that they wanted to, or, you know, and then they just say, well, that was too hard. I couldn't do it, you know, that, that way, I can't, I can't live up to that standard.

• 51:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, nobody's perfect. Not even the most vegan vegan is perfect. And, and, and I really see it as an aspiration, not a list of ingredients, not an endpoint. It is an ongoing process of trying to do as best you can on a regular basis. And, you know, when, if you look at it as ingredients, it's impossible. You know, for example, I try to eat organic produce, but it might be grown with animal manure. So technically is that vegan or not, you know, so, so it's not.

• 51:52Rich Roll?

  Well, we're some, we're some, you know, bugs killed in the process of tilling the soil to, you know.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  Exactly. Probably so. See, we can't live without causing any harm, you know? So it's, it's really an aspiration, you know, and we just try to do that. Best we can and be honest about the fact that it's impossible to to live without causing any harm and and and but just try to do as well as you can and inspire others and encourage others to do as well as they can. And if somebody makes a mistake, don't spend hours and hours slamming them over it. Just acknowledge it and try to move forward in a positive way. And and because I think most people do want to live in a compassionate way, in a way they feel good about and and and need support whenever they make steps and try to move in that direction.

• 52:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's an evolution.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  It is.

• 52:39Rich Roll?

  I call it an evolution revolution.

• 52:41Speaker 01

  I like it, man, totally.

• 52:42Rich Roll?

  Because I mean, I was, it was funny when I listened to our podcast we did a year and a half ago, and I was like, wow, you know, I, I like, I'm in a different place than I was when I was asking you those questions. And I think that that you were the first person that I had on the show that was really coming from an animal rights perspective. And I had a little bit of trepidation about about introducing that to the audience. And, you know, I feel differently now, like, you know, this is much more important to me now. And it's not, it's not just about my health. And, you know, there's other things at play that are really worth discussing, if not more important to discuss. And it was interesting to compare, you know, where I was then to where

• 53:25Rich Roll?

  I am now. And and that continues. You know what I mean? Like, I just saw some videos recently of, like, I'm not on the internet, like, looking at at interviews of animals being, you know, tortured in some slaughterhouse. Like, that's, I don't do that, you know, like, I'm, I don't actively avoid it, but I'm not like seeking it out, like, and I saw, I saw a video of how they treat the animals in a shearing facility in New Zealand where they're making wool, right? And I, and I always thought, oh, we just were giving these animals a haircut. It's like, no big deal. And I have a whole different perspective on that now, you know, like that's the next thing for me. Like, wow, I need to think about that a little bit more than I ever did before.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 54:07Rich Roll?

  And that continues, you know, there'll be something, you know, next year that I have to think about that I'm not thinking about right now.

• 54:13Speaker 01

  No, that's part of this movement and it's so beautiful is it's an ongoing process of learning and same with me, you know, I'm trying to eat healthier because still I've made some progress there, but there's more I could do. And, you know, staying in good shape, you know, not nearly as much as you do in terms of the exercise and all that, don't compete nearly at the level you do. But, you know, doing the Ironman was really a very satisfying process. You know, you have a goal and you go for it and you do it. So that really felt good. And so, you know, your advice on that was very helpful. So we learned from each other, too. You know, there's things that if you haven't done

• 54:53Speaker 01

  something, it's scary because it's you don't know how to. And having somebody give you advice and support who has been down that path makes it a lot easier. And I think that's a big part of what our movement is about is providing support and information and help for folks who want to make choices that are, again, more compassionate, more healthful, more life-affirming, more ecologically sustainable. And where we live on this planet in a respectful way that doesn't harm others to the extent we can. And it's impossible to cause no harm, but we do it as well as we can. And we help each other in that way.

• 55:31Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right. But also, I think it's important to also acknowledge that vegans can be their own worst enemy, you know. And it's like, you know, a lot of people and friends of mine are like, yeah, I don't want to hear about that. Like, they just, they bug me, they annoy me, I'm turned off. Like, I don't want anything to do with it. You're cool. I like you. You know, you're my friend, but like, I don't need those people. I don't want those people around me. So what is going on? Like, how can we address that? How can we change that social dynamic to kind of move forward with a better?

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:03Rich Roll?

  Forward.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I think, you know, vegans understandably get very angry about the horrible things that are happening. And that anger is fully justified, but how it is expressed to others sometimes pushes others away. And I think it's important to be able to communicate in a way that informs and engages instead of pushes away. And, you know, the finger-wagon vegan is too commonly been the experience people have. And I think it's important, I think, for folks in the vegan movement to ask questions, you know, sometimes like, well, what do you feel like about these animals and how they're raised? Instead of telling somebody, oh, that's terrible and you're doing bad things.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  I think just engaging in a discussion is a very important way to change the dynamic a little bit and to encourage people to think through these issues themselves instead of telling people what to think. And that's, I think, a problem in many different movements and in many different ways and in the political system for sure. And discourse has to be conducted in a way that is respectful, that raises everybody's thinking and creates more and more understandings and connections between people. And vegans, you know, historically, who have been, you know, very much a minority and very

• 57:30Speaker 01

  angered and frustrated by the slow progress or the being dismissed and the animal abuse being completely ignored, you know, will sometimes react in a very passionate way. And, and they may be right in saying what they're saying, but they're not very effective in connecting with people and raising a discussion. And that's, I think, part of what our movement is now working on.

• 57:53Rich Roll?

  Well, you're a very good communicator. You know, not everybody is, can be effective in getting the point across as well as you can. You're very, very good at that. And you do it in a way that is very inviting. And I'm sure that that has developed, you know, over the, since 1985, you know, began this journey. But I have a theory, and I'm interested in your, in your, whether you think this is accurate or not, because I think maybe you're part of this, which is, I think people that, that are vegans from the get-go, or become vegans at a very early age, tend to be people that I think, um, this is just my wackadoodle theory, but they just come out of the womb like more sensitive than the average person. They're sensitively

• 58:38Rich Roll?

  attuned to their environment in a way that maybe most people aren't. And so when they see, you know, meat on a plate, or an animal in, you know, a livestock situation, it triggers something in them, um, that, that, that activates that level of sensitivity and, and creates, um, you know, a sense of, uh, you know, right and wrong, like, that doesn't seem right to me. And, and so what happens is frustration develops over the years that other people aren't seeing it that way. And that frustration develops into, justifiably develops into a sense of anger, like, how come I'm the only one who's seeing this? They're not. And then after a while, you're just gonna be a pissed off human being. And then your communication

• 59:23Rich Roll?

  is going to reflect that. And you seem like somebody who was probably one of those kids, right? Like, who was pretty sensitive to these things when maybe the people around you weren't. And yet, you've seemed to come out, you know, with a different perspective.

• 59:39Speaker 01

  Well, no, definitely was, was very sensitive growing up. And I think most people ultimately are, and, and also have an empathy. And when they see somebody else hurt, whether it's a human or another animal, there's a natural reaction that is sharing the pain, really, and, and not feeling good for the other and wishing the other would be okay.

• 59:59Speaker 01

  And there-

• 1:00:00Rich Roll?

  Like a heightened empathy.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  There may be that as well, yeah. And I, you know, I think, you know, psychologists and sociologists would have to really dig into this, you know, but I think the movement is very interesting. And, and I think everybody, whether they're animal people or not, has empathy and could have, but it's sort of like a muscle too. The more you use it, I think the stronger it can get. And the more you do certain things, and in the case of vegans in the early days, maybe yelling was the pattern of behavior, the frustration that would come out in certain ways. I think that as our movement has matured and grown, you know, more and more of us are talking about being effective and, and what is effective and being really conscious of how things are

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  communicated. But I think what makes somebody first an animal person is a very interesting question. And I think a sensitivity is part of it and an empathy is part of it, and also an interest in actually pursuing that. Too often, I think, people have an empathy or a feeling about something and they're told to do something else and they will do the something else. And so there's also an integrity to it, to maintaining that sense of compassion and empathy and interest in, in, in following your heart.

• 1:01:18Rich Roll?

  Right. In other words, what you're saying is we all kind of have it, but it gets eroded. And the people that stick with it are the people that had a certain sense of self, maybe that was like a little bit stronger.

• 1:01:29Speaker 01

  It's possible it was a sense of self, or it might also have been sort of a, less of a sense of the rest of the world.

• 1:01:35Rich Roll?

  Right, right, right, right.

• 1:01:36Speaker 01

  A really, a sort of, you know, a sense of self in some way, whatever that is, is, whether it's healthy or not is, is, is another question, but, but yeah, I think so. And, but I think a sense of, but all of us have it. I really do believe that. And, and to the extent that it's awakened and enlivened, I think all of us will, will do better.

• 1:01:59Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm. Interesting. Yeah, it's super interesting to just even think about that.

• 1:02:03Speaker 01

  How, where does this come from?

• 1:02:04Rich Roll?

  You know, I don't know. Yeah, you were supposed to be, you know,

• 1:02:08Speaker 01

  Like an engineer or something like that.

• 1:02:09Rich Roll?

  Like managing real estate properties.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  Right. Exactly, you know?

• 1:02:13Rich Roll?

  Did your brothers and sisters end up going into the family business?

• 1:02:16Speaker 01

  No, none of them.

• 1:02:17Rich Roll?

  Nobody did? What did they all do?

• 1:02:20Speaker 01

  Well, I've got, uh, one brother's a philosophy professor, a sister is an animator and teaches animation, another brother's a musicology professor and, um, you know, a sister worked at Delta for a while, another one's an actress. So they're doing all kinds of different things in different parts of the US right now.

• 1:02:36Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm, cool.

• 1:02:37Speaker 01

  You know, my folks are still in the same house I grew up in, in the Hollywood Hills.

• 1:02:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Speaker 01

  And, uh, so I, I get to see them when I come to LA, which is nice too.

• 1:02:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's cool. Um, so let's talk about what's going on, um, legislatively and in the regulatory field in terms of factory farming, our food system, et cetera. There's some pretty interesting things afoot, are there not?

• 1:03:00Speaker 01

  Yes, there are. Uh, beginning in around 2000, there was a series of pushes to pass state laws to prohibit the inhumane confinement of animals in cages where they can't turn around. So we succeeded with several initiatives and also some state legislative efforts. Um, recently, um, Steve King, uh, a congressman from Iowa, introduced a bill to undo all of these state protections and to put it under federal jurisdiction.

• 1:03:29Rich Roll?

  He introduced a federal, a federal?

• 1:03:31Speaker 01

  A federal bill, that's right. And what's ironic about it is that King is a Tea Party guy who is technically against federal oversight of state issues. And he has somehow now changed that, his thinking on that to think the federal government should, uh, be in charge of animal welfare and state laws that protect animals from cruelty should not stand and should be superseded by a non-existent federal standard.

• 1:03:58Rich Roll?

  Well, it's the interest of his constituency. I mean, Iowa's a huge cattle-producing state, you know?

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  It's big agriculture, big pork, big chicken, big egg. And, um, he is representing his, the interests of those in his state. And, and their interest, you know, at least, and I, when I say interest, I- It's a short sighted interest in my mind. It's an interest in maintaining the status quo. It's not really an interest in creating a healthy world and a healthy food system. You know, he wants to maintain.

• 1:04:30Rich Roll?

  Well, he wants to, he wants to get reelected.

• 1:04:32Speaker 01

  That's right. That's short sighted. Yeah. So it's very short sighted. Yes. He wants to get reelected and there's a lot of money in animal agriculture in Iowa. So if he does the bidding for animal agriculture, he will get, you know, campaign support and will be reelected as a congressman.

• 1:04:47Rich Roll?

  So what's going on with the bill?

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Well, it's early on and it doesn't even have a bill number yet, but it's going to be introduced. And we're going to be fighting it very hard. And I don't know even what it's been labeled as yet, but it's something to keep an eye out for. It's the second time he's done this. He introduced a similar bill in the last Congress, which we were able to defeat thankfully. It's hard to know what's going to happen in the new Congress, but I am hopeful that we'll also be able to defeat it. But the fact that it's even coming up is discouraging and really speaks to how aligned agribusinesses and how entrenched agribusinesses with our legislative officials and the system, you know, we've got the best government money can buy, you know?

• 1:05:33Speaker 01

  And it's money from these industries that want to maintain a particular status quo that serves the interests of, of, of the bottom line, not the interests of people, not the interests of the earth or animals or the environment. And, and, and this is where, you know, I ultimately come down to believing that it's going to take people to vote with our dollars and to support different businesses that are not putting people like Steve King in Congress. And so there's a shift that's going to have to happen, but.

• 1:06:03Rich Roll?

  Either that or remove money from politics altogether. So what's the harder road to hoe?

• 1:06:09Speaker 01

  It's a good question. It's a really good question. I don't know the answer to that, but either one of those would be positive. And, but the way the system is now is messed up.

• 1:06:17Rich Roll?

  But should that bill prevail, I mean, just to be clear, that would, that would basically. Undermine every single state law that has been passed that that has sort of been in the positive direction of trying to

• 1:06:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, to prevent factory farming, for example. That's right. To prevent factory farming. There's a law here in California that makes it illegal to confine egg-laying hens, for example, in cages so tightly that they can't even stretch their wings. And then California also passed a law, which we were very happy to see, that makes it illegal to sell eggs in the state of California from factory-farmed battery cage operations where the hens are packed so tightly they can't stretch their wings. So that is really one of the big contentions that folks in Iowa or egg producers there have. They want to be able to have these factory-farmed eggs and sell them to California. California said, "No, you can't do that." And so that's an example of the kind of law that we like to see and that agribusiness does not like.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  And that is the type of thing that would be threatened by this proposal of Steve King.

• 1:07:19Rich Roll?

  Interesting. And there seems to be forward movement in state laws, but also there's some regression, too, like the foie gras thing in California was kind of a

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:30Rich Roll?

  Move in the wrong direction.

• 1:07:31Speaker 01

  It was, absolutely. Yeah, we were able to pass that law in 2004. It went into effect in 2012 to make it illegal to produce and sell foie gras in California. Foie gras is produced by shoving a pipe down the throats of ducks or geese, force-feeding them such a huge quantity of food that their liver gets to be 10 times the normal size. It's then sold as foie gras, which which means fatty liver in French. So we passed the law, it went into effect, and the foie gras industry has been fighting it in court ever since. And they did win a court victory that said that the California law could not stand, but the Attorney General in California is going to appeal that. And we feel pretty good about the chances of the law ultimately standing.

• 1:08:16Rich Roll?

  What is it? What was the legal basis that

• 1:08:18Speaker 01

  I'm not even really sure, honestly. It was, I think, it had something to do maybe with interstate commerce, but I don't know the specific legal part of it. But our legal people tell me that it's not a, that that that we should be in good shape when when this is discussed at the appellate court. And hopefully, the law will be reinstated and foie gras will again

• 1:08:46Speaker 01

  No longer be sellable in California.

• 1:08:48Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Interesting. And what's going on with ag gag laws?

• 1:08:52Speaker 01

  Oh, gosh. Yeah, there's still some of those happening. Yeah, it's crazy. These ag gag laws are state laws now. I wonder if Steve King would, you know? The irony is this federal bill would not prevent those. It would only prevent the animal protection laws. It wouldn't prevent these ag gag laws, which make it illegal and seek to prevent undercover investigations of factory farms. And it's because the factory farming industry is so harmful that they don't want people seeing what they're doing. So these ag gag laws have now been passed in a handful of states and they're continuously being proposed in other states. We've had a pretty good success rate at being able to kill them, but they keep popping up and from time to time they pass and it's unfortunate.

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  It's quite amazing. It doesn't, I don't understand how it passes constitutional muster.

• 1:09:41Speaker 01

  I don't think, you know, these, they haven't been challenged yet.

• 1:09:43Rich Roll?

  Has any, has, none of these have gone to the Supreme Court, have they?

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  That's right. They've not been challenged yet and they haven't gone through the court process. But I, I agree with you that I cannot see how these would pass muster when it, when it comes to constitutional issues. And so these things are part of our discussion now and part of our world. And it's, you know, the law takes so long to kind of grind its way through, you know? And this again, brings me to the marketplace and the importance of voting with our dollars, you know, while also being involved in the political process and supporting the, you know, representatives that we believe in and stuff. But, you know, every day we vote with our dollars and that ultimately has a significant impact that, that I think is going to be the biggest impact over time.

• 1:10:37Rich Roll?

  I think people feel disenfranchised, though. I mean, it's easy to say that and I say it all the time, too, and I believe it. But I think a lot of people hear that and they just go, yeah, but, you know, who cares what I buy my, you know, spend my money on? Like, so how do we, how do we really engender, you know, people to actually believe that that does make a difference, that they can?

• 1:10:59Speaker 01

  Well, they'll feel better if they eat good food instead of feeling happy.

• 1:11:03Speaker 01

  But no, people do feel disenfranchised, I think. And, you know, politically, more so, though, I'd say than, you know, in terms of the marketplace. And when it comes to the marketplace, we really do have choices. You know, sometimes they might not be as wide as we would like, but we can choose to buy an apple, for example, instead of buying, you know, a slim gem, or one of those like meat things. You know, you can eat something healthy instead of something that is harmful. And so we do have control over that. And I think there's a lot of things we don't have control over, but we can control what we eat. And small steps lead to more steps and become empowering. You know, I know for myself, when I became vegan, and today,

• 1:11:48Speaker 01

  as I make food choices, I feel good about certain ones. And then you want to do that again, and it's empowering. But it is sometimes tough to get over the hump. You know, if somebody's in a certain frame of mind and feels like what they do doesn't really matter, you know, it's tough. But little things start mattering and adding up and becoming big things over time. So our food choices, you know, again, just, you know, if you get home and you have a regular habit of eating something that's unhealthy, maybe shifting that and turn it into eating something like a smoothie, or an apple, or something that is healthy, a little thing like that can pick up steam and turn into something significant over time.

• 1:12:31Rich Roll?

  That's just crazy talk.

• 1:12:34Rich Roll?

  Come on.

• 1:12:35Speaker 01

  I know, right?

• 1:12:36Rich Roll?

  Who's gonna do that?

• 1:12:37Speaker 01

  Right. Yeah. I mean, yeah. So little things like this do make a difference, you know?

• 1:12:42Rich Roll?

  I think that, I mean, really, the core of what you're saying, and really kind of the core of the, you know, the tenets upon which, you know, your book sort of orients, is really this idea of aligning your actions with your values. Like, making sure that your actions match up with your words and your actual belief, your belief systems. And I know what it's like to live my life where my words and my actions don't line up. And I know how that feels. And sometimes it's just kind of a low-grade feeling that you don't even know something's wrong, but it's just not right. Like, you don't feel that good. And I know what it feels like to know that, basically, what comes out of my mouth

• 1:13:24Rich Roll?

  is exactly the way that I'm behaving. And it's a different feeling, you know? And it's kind of a profound spiritual thing. It really is.

• 1:13:33Rich Roll?

  And it feels really good when you're doing that. And it doesn't matter what, you know, whatever your values are, whatever those are, when you're, when you're, what you're saying and what you're doing are, are in, on parallel tracks, there's something special about that.

• 1:13:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:13:47Rich Roll?

  And, um, and, uh, and I think that, that to the extent that people that are listening can try to move in that direction, um, trying to aspire to that has changed my life. And it doesn't mean that you're going to become an animal activist, or you're going to be selling veggie dogs at a Grateful Dead concert. But there's something really amazing about that, that I would implore anybody to kind of ponder for themselves. And I think to the extent that we're talking about the consumer's power to create change by voting with their dollar, I would just say, look around, go to the grocery store, look at all the plant-based

• 1:14:29Rich Roll?

  milks. Why do you think those exist? That's because people voted with their dollar. And they said, you know what? I want a different choice from Cal's milk. I want some almond milk. I want those, those, you know, it's because they're profitable businesses and there's a demand for that. And we live in a capitalist consumer society. And so when you're making that statement as a consumer, look what happens, look what follows. And now, when you look around, you see Beyond Meat, you see what Ethan Brown is doing with that company. And it's amazing. And you see what Josh Tetrick is doing with Hampton Creek. And the recent thing that we probably could talk about, which is amazing, is this lawsuit with Unilever and Heilman's mayonnaise. I mean,

• 1:15:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, crazy.

• 1:15:08Rich Roll?

  Incredible, right?

• 1:15:08Speaker 01

  Well, they're feeling threatened by this plant-based mayonnaise that's out hitting the market in thousands of different outlets.

• 1:15:14Rich Roll?

  Because people have voted with their dollar and said, I want to try this Just Mayo, or, you know,

• 1:15:19Speaker 01

  Just Mayo, yeah.

• 1:15:20Rich Roll?

  It's called Just Mayo. And they came up with this cockeyed, ridiculous legal argument to sue them over that just blew up in their faces on a PR level.

• 1:15:28Speaker 01

  It sure did. And then they dropped the lawsuit.

• 1:15:30Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:15:31Speaker 01

  And so Just Mayo continues to get out to the people. And when people buy it, they're supporting a different kind of food system, a startup, plant-based company, taking on Unilever, you know? So this is great progress, I think.

• 1:15:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And I think just for the listener out there to kind of paint the picture a little bit more fully. Uh, I don't know what the, what the market cap is on mayonnaise, but it's the number one condiment. And, and the amount of money in the mayonnaise business is like insane. Like it's just billions of dollars, you know, being spent on mayonnaise. And so Josh, you know, has this idea of creating a plant-based mayonnaise. And he, he treats this like a tech startup. They have this office in San Francisco, like in that kind of south of market area. Have you visited there?

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:16:16Rich Roll?

  It's really cool.

• 1:16:17Speaker 01

  When you go in there. Scientists and they're figuring out how to take plants.

• 1:16:20Rich Roll?

  It's like one big room where you walk in and there's like that big table where all the young people are on laptops. You know, like every startup. And then there's these steel, long steel tables right behind them where working right alongside each other are crazy. You know, chemists and like, you know, I don't know what these guys.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  Protein specialists.

• 1:16:39Rich Roll?

  Geniuses looking through microscopes and coming up with, you know, crazy ways of, of, you know, using plants to make food. And right next to them are like chefs and culinary experts trying to figure out how to make it taste good and how to create the right texture for it. And, and they're, they're really like, it's, it's kind of amazing to see. And it's all, it's literally in one big giant room. They're all working together.

• 1:17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Rich Roll?

  But it is just one room. I mean, this whole company is really operating out of like this tiny little office. It doesn't even have like a sign on the door.

• 1:17:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:10Rich Roll?

  And Unilever, which is the parent company of Heilmann's mayonnaise, which is the market leader. Starts to get threatened by Just Mayo because Just Mayo suddenly is in Walmart and it's in Costco. And this is for real. And people are starting to buy it because it's cheaper and it's arguably healthier. And it doesn't use any animal products. And so it becomes a no brainer. It's more efficiently produced. It uses less resources. That's why it costs less. It's, it's just an obvious choice. And so they see them and say, you can't do this because the legal definition of mayo means.

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  Or mayonnaise.

• 1:17:48Rich Roll?

  Mayonnaise says that it, it has eggs in it, right? Something like that.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's right. Yep.

• 1:17:53Rich Roll?

  And they're like, yeah, but the whole point of our business is that it doesn't. That's the whole thing.

• 1:17:58Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:17:58Rich Roll?

  And suddenly Josh is like on every television show for the next two months. You know, Fox, everything from Fox News to MSNBC, all these business shows. He got more free advertising for his company out of his lawsuit. And then they, then they dropped it and they just looked like they had, they looked like, you know, the bully who, uh, you know, I don't know.

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, they didn't look. They, no, not at all. And it raised more awareness about Just Mayo. So it ultimately had a good result and, but it really speaks to how frightened these industries are of change. And, you know, it's been happening for years. Oprah was sued when she talked about beef years ago and how we might have mad cow disease in the U.S. And these industries are very litigious. They're quick to bully and threaten those that speak out against them or challenge them or threaten them in some ways. But that I think also, and the ag laws are a very good example of that too. But I think that really is, and it speaks to the fact that this system as it currently stands is untenable. It is indefensible. And when people have information and have real choices, uh, they're going to generally make more compassionate, more helpful choices.

• 1:19:05Speaker 01

  And so we're seeing that with Just Mayo and that lawsuit was a really interesting episode in the sort of food battles that have been waging and will continue to wage. And I think that consumers are going to ultimately be the, the judge and jury on this. And by purchasing plant-based foods grown in sustainable ways that, you know, we feel good about and that don't harm the planet, you know, we really can change things and, and it is starting to happen. Like you mentioned, the, the plant-based milks now are all over the place. That wasn't the case 10 years ago. So there's, there's change happening and it's not fast enough, but, but there are some good signs.

• 1:19:44Rich Roll?

  And by the way, who knows what kind of eggs end up in the Heilmans anyway? I mean, it's, they've gotta be, you know, that's, that's no organic product, right? So anybody who's listening, you know, pick up the Just Mayo.

• 1:19:58Speaker 01

  Just Mayo is the way to go.

• 1:19:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So walk me through kind of, uh, you know, a day in the life of Farm Sanctuary. Like, you know, what is your, you know, what does your day look like? And also what is the process of kind of, you know, rescuing these animals and, and finding a new home for them? I mean, we talked about this a little bit before, but I, I think I said something like, Yeah, these farmers can't be too happy when you show up and say, you know, can we take that calf off your hands?

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  Right, right.

• 1:20:28Rich Roll?

  How does that work?

• 1:20:29Speaker 01

  Well, you know, there are more sanctuaries now and we currently operate three sanctuaries. And so we have rescues that come in regularly. And in some cases, it's actually people that work at these farms that will contact the authorities and report abuse. And that's kind of a new thing that's happening and it's a very good thing to see happening. Back when we started in the 1980s, you know, we used to actually do a lot of investigations and go in and see what's happening. And investigations are still happening. But sometimes now people that work at these places are actually starting to speak out. And whenever possible, we try to use laws to protect animals. Unfortunately, most laws regarding farm animals have been written to exclude common farming practices.

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  So this is an ongoing battle that we're working on to try to have laws protect them from the worst cruelties, you know, and some of the initiatives we've worked on over the years, give them space at least to turn around, which is so modest, but it's better than not having it. But in terms of rescuing animals, so they'll come to the sanctuary and they will be checked out. In some cases, they're in really bad shape, so they might have to go to a veterinarian. And then when they're in good shape and we know they don't have anything contagious, they'll be introduced to other animals at the farm. And they may stay there, or if we can find a good home, we will place them in a good home. We're always looking for good homes for cows and pigs and chickens and turkeys and other farm animals. And then, once they're at the farm, they just live out their lives.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  You know, they wake up in the morning, we open the barns for them and start feeding them and giving them water, making sure everybody's okay. And they get to go out and graze if they're cows, if they're pigs, they get to go out and wallow in the mud. They might get a couple belly rubs over the course of the day. Chickens, you know, scratch in the dirt, they get to roost, they just get to be who they are. And it's a beautiful, beautiful thing to see farm animals enjoying life. And at Farm Sanctuary, they're our friends, not our food. They are fellow earthlings and we want to enjoy and experience life in a positive way with them. And we get a chance to do that. And so, our first rescues, in fact, were partly ways to heal ourselves, because we used to do a lot of investigations and see horrible thing after horrible thing.

• 1:22:45Speaker 01

  And You know, you had to do something positive out of that. And we would literally find living animals thrown on piles of dead animals, or living animals thrown in trash cans. So we started rescuing them. And then as those animals healed, we also healed. And you know, Farm Sanctuary is a place of healing and transformation for animals, and also for people who care about animals and care about living in a world where violence isn't the norm, and where incredible pollution of factory farming isn't the norm, and where bad health isn't the norm. You know, we wanna create a different kind of world. And that's really what Farm Sanctuary has become. It's a place where vegan is normal.

• 1:23:28Speaker 01

  It's a place where we aspire to live in a compassionate way, in a healthy way. And you know, for me, a lot of my time now is out talking and discussing these issues with various people, and sometimes in the media, and at schools, and just encouraging people to think about food. You know, because I think one of the big problems is, we just don't think about it, you know, as a society. And so we mindlessly consume and mindlessly adopt certain habits that don't serve us well, and don't serve our planet well. And it's just about waking people up to these issues and getting people to think about them. So that's a big part of what I do now. And you know, part of that has been doing some more of this athletic stuff, you know, like marathons and triathlons and things, just to show that as a vegan of many years,

• 1:24:13Speaker 01

  you know, you have all the energy you need, you have all the nutrients you need from plant sources. And I think, you know, so we're trying to work more and more across movements, not only in the animal movement, but also in the environmental movements, and the health movements, social justice movements, even in the religious world, the yoga world, and business world. There's more and more vegan businesses now that are interested in...

• 1:24:39Speaker 01

  Advancing this cause. So there's a lot of really exciting things happening and it's a movement.

• 1:24:45Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a, it's a great time. It's a really cool time.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Never been better.

• 1:24:49Rich Roll?

  And I have to say, you know, thank you for inviting me up to, to the Acton Farm Sanctuary for the feeding of the turkeys. That was super fun.

• 1:24:58Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah. So cool you could come up to that. Yeah.

• 1:25:00Rich Roll?

  And like a gift and an honor to be able to get up and talk a little bit.

• 1:25:06Rich Roll?

  But it was a great day. We had such a wonderful time and, and I was just struck by the community, first of all, this community that you've built and all these people that are, that are come together around this idea and this cause, which was great to see. And also just to interact with these animals, you know, we're so programmed that when we think of a cow or we think of a pig, we think of what that animal looks like in the context of the typical farm situation, right? I have never seen cows as big as the cows you have. I don't know what that one cow, what his or her name is, but that was the biggest cow I've ever, I think I've ever seen in my life. Do you know which one I'm talking about?

• 1:25:49Speaker 01

  I'm not sure off the top. We have some cows that weigh like close to 3,000 pounds.

• 1:25:53Rich Roll?

  Huge. I'm like,

• 1:25:57Rich Roll?

  is that the way it is when, you know, like what's going on here?

• 1:26:01Speaker 01

  When they're allowed to live.

• 1:26:01Rich Roll?

  It looks like a freak of nature. It looks like out of like a movie or something, you know?

• 1:26:05Speaker 01

  When they're allowed to live, you know, they do get big and they've been genetically bred in some cases to grow very big. So they have those genetics, but they're killed at a young age for the meat industry. So once they come to Farm Sanctuary, they just are allowed to live and they can get to be gigantic.

• 1:26:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:22Speaker 01

  And they're gentle though, too, which is.

• 1:26:24Rich Roll?

  It's the biggest cow I've ever seen.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:26:28Rich Roll?

  Do you have any events coming up, Farm Sanctuary? I mean, how is it like if someone's listening and they want to visit, they can't just pop in, right? You have like days where you're open to the public?

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  That's right. We do various visitor days. So they could go to our website, farmsanctuary.org, and that would have information about various events that we have coming up on the farms. We also do tours of the farms and it's great for people to come and get to look at these animals and get to know them as individuals, to look into the eyes of a pig, to see how big a cow is. And sometimes turkeys will even come and sit on your lap. So, but the best thing to do is just to look at the website, Farm Sanctuary, and there's information on visiting there.

• 1:27:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and you've got a bunch of appearances coming up. I was looking at the site, like, as the book is starting to heat up.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:27:12Rich Roll?

  The, the, the thing at Skirball looks cool. You're gonna do a panel with Moby and like a couple other people?

• 1:27:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, Moby and Gene Stone and Joel Stein from Time Magazine. And so, yeah, we're doing a panel at Skirball, gonna be at ABC Carpet and Home in New York City.

• 1:27:27Rich Roll?

  Are both of those open to the public?

• 1:27:29Speaker 01

  They are, absolutely.

• 1:27:30Rich Roll?

  So you're doing, like, your kind of your formal book party in New York is gonna be at ABC?

• 1:27:35Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 1:27:35Rich Roll?

  And the one in LA is gonna be at Skirball?

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  That's right, yes.

• 1:27:38Rich Roll?

  Cool.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm really excited about it. And then after that, I go to Phoenix, and then San Francisco, and then Portland, and gonna be all over the place. It's really, really neat to see so much enthusiasm around the country. And, um, and, and ABC and Skirball are, it's amazing to have those kind of venues.

• 1:27:57Rich Roll?

  How was it writing the book with Gene?

• 1:27:59Speaker 01

  It was good.

• 1:27:59Rich Roll?

  Gene and Gene?

• 1:28:00Speaker 01

  That's right, it's very rare that you see Gene and Gene, two Genes. But it was really great working with him. And, you know, he wrote the book Forks Over Knives, that really has had a huge impact.

• 1:28:10Rich Roll?

  And he worked with Rip on My Gepardine and Engine Two. So, you know, he knows his way around this, this world and this kind of book.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  Absolutely, yeah. So we were able to include more of the health aspects of it, the, the science, talking about the benefits of eating plants instead of animals. Also, the science of talking about the benefits of enjoying a mindful relationship with animals. Now, there's science that shows that when you interact in a positive way with a, a dog, for example, you know, your stress levels go down, and it reduces the risks of various health problems. So emotional well-being, you know, goes along with in, in, in interacting with animals in a positive way. Whereas if we do it in a negative way, it kind of creates an abusive relationship. So we were able to touch on some of those in the book. And, and that's one of the tenets, is to engage in a mindful relationship with other animals.

• 1:28:57Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:28:58Speaker 01

  And, um, and when it comes to farm animals, of course, most people don't really do that in this country. So that's a huge part of what we want people to start thinking about. And, um, and, and, and I think feel better about it. You know, people know cats and dogs, and they love living with their cats and dogs, but don't recognize that cows and pigs and chickens and turkeys are individuals too.

• 1:29:18Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:29:18Speaker 01

  And if given the chance, they would love to hang out and sleep on your couch, in some cases. So they're, you know, they can be cuddly as well.

• 1:29:27Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  But people don't think about them in that way.

• 1:29:30Rich Roll?

  Our, our 11 year old daughter Mathis, she's obsessed with wolves. Like just from very early age, like that's her spirit animal. Like she's just super into it, like covered her room in pictures and all that. And for her 11th birthday, she, well, first of all, she started like a, a fashion line as a 10 year old. She has a whole business and she designs clothes and she uses all, she doesn't, it's all vegan, you know? Like she makes like faux leather jackets and all this and she knows how to sew and it's, it's cool. I'll tell you about it later, but she calls her line Wolf Stone and she donates 10% of her profits or her, her revenue, not just her profits, her revenue to a wolf sanctuary called Wolf Connection, which is in Acton.

• 1:30:15Rich Roll?

  It's like really close to.

• 1:30:17Speaker 01

  Farm sanctuary out there.

• 1:30:18Rich Roll?

  Farm sanctuary and for her 11th birthday, she wanted to go to Wolf Connection and check it out with her friends. And like this guy doesn't do, the guy who runs it doesn't, it's not open to the public. But we were able to contact him and like way ahead of time and work something out. We went and we spent the better part of a day with all of these amazing animals and got to interact with. Like you would never think like, oh, well, you can't get close to a wolf, but he's using these animals. Basically he uses them, um, he brings groups of, uh, sort of, uh, underprivileged youths or like youths that are like getting into trouble a lot, like, you know, sort of, and it brings them up and they do these camps and the animals are like sort of therapeutic for these kids.

• 1:31:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:31:02Rich Roll?

  And, uh, he's had like amazing results, a whole long story. But it was super interesting to actually, we would go in the pens and like be with some of these animals. Some of them are half bred or, you know, they're not all like completely full bred wolves. But it was an experience that I'd never like would have anticipated. That was really touching and amazing and all driven by my daughter. She was the one who kind of drove it. So I can attest to. The, you know, just the healing aspect of kind of being around these animals and the kind of impact that that can have.

• 1:31:32Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 1:31:33Rich Roll?

  But when I was up there, I was thinking about you the whole time. I was like, yeah, these guys are right next to each other. I should connect you with them.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  That'd be nice. Yeah, I'd love to meet them and see the place and see the wolves.

• 1:31:41Rich Roll?

  Cool. And how's the, how's the publishing experience been?

• 1:31:46Speaker 01

  It's been good. I mean, Gene, you know,

• 1:31:48Rich Roll?

  This is not your first book. This is not your first rodeo, right? So, and publishing's changing, right?

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  It is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a lot of online stuff now, just, you know, getting the word out that way. The book tour is somewhat similar to the one I did previously, but I think we're going to actually be in more cities this time around. So it's been a good experience. And Rodale's been very good to work with. They've been very much behind the book. They took all the food photos, which are wonderful. So they really put a lot behind it and I'm really grateful for that.

• 1:32:19Rich Roll?

  That's great, man.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how's your, you got a book coming out too?

• 1:32:23Rich Roll?

  I do. Well, a couple of weeks after yours, you know, so, you know, I'm in the same thing right now. It's good getting everything organized and we've got one more pass on it and, but it's all kind of, you know, coming together, which is, it's exciting. It's amazing how much work it is. You know, like you, you think you're done with it and it's like, wait, we're still not done? Like, you know, and then the whole marketing, like all of that, like, wow, you know, it's, I don't think people realize how much work it takes.

• 1:32:50Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, absolutely. Producing it and then also the marketing of it.

• 1:32:53Rich Roll?

  And yeah, the marketing, there's this idea that, that because you're with a publisher that you don't have to worry about that part of it. But really, as the author, you have to shoulder that, you have to take that mantle and run with it.

• 1:33:04Speaker 01

  The majority of it.

• 1:33:05Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so there's a, that becomes like a full-time job, so.

• 1:33:09Speaker 01

  It does. Yes. With a lot of travel sometimes, which can be a little tiring.

• 1:33:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah. Well, I think some of the travel is probably less than it used to be because so much of it is now driven by stuff you're doing online. Like, you know, hopefully this podcast, you know, will move the needle for you. And, you know, the days of like showing up at bookstores, you know, you gotta do some of that, but, you know, like, you know, going all over the place to a million bookstores where like three people show up.

• 1:33:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:37Rich Roll?

  I mean, you know. How many bookstore, you know, book signing things do you go to, you know?

• 1:33:43Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:33:43Rich Roll?

  I don't know about you, but like, I don't go to too many.

• 1:33:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, no, I'm gonna hit it pretty hard early on.

• 1:33:48Rich Roll?

  Are you good?

• 1:33:49Speaker 01

  New York, LA, and then, but then, but no, it's true. I think a lot of it now is done online. I mean, that's where a lot of books are now purchased. And so we'll certainly be putting a lot of energy into driving people to Amazon and to, you know, other online booksellers.

• 1:34:05Rich Roll?

  Interesting.

• 1:34:06Speaker 01

  But traveling a fair bit too. I like actually getting out and seeing people in various communities that are interested in this work and that are Farm Sanctuary supporters. And it's really great to hear what they're doing. You know, there's people and great vegan restaurants all over the place as well. So, and for the book, we have contributors from all over the country who gave us amazing vegan recipes, including from you, your tempeh meatloaf.

• 1:34:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that's right. We did contribute one.

• 1:34:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah. So it's, it's, it's really, you know, so that's another cool thing about traveling around the country and seeing people that have been part of the book and then just seeing, being in the community and seeing what's happening in, you know, Des Moines or wherever it might be. I don't have a trip there currently planned, but maybe at some point, you know, just seeing what's happening. It's fun.

• 1:34:50Rich Roll?

  Cool. Well, the book is called Living the Farm Sanctuary Life. It comes out April 7th. I'm excited for you.

• 1:34:57Speaker 01

  No, thank you.

• 1:34:57Rich Roll?

  And we're gonna be, we're gonna be in Marshall together, but I think we're also, are you doing the New York City Veg?

• 1:35:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's the 15th of March, I think.

• 1:35:06Rich Roll?

  Coming up pretty soon.

• 1:35:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, March 15th, yep.

• 1:35:08Rich Roll?

  I'll see you there.

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  Right on.

• 1:35:09Rich Roll?

  We'll do it then. Cool, man. Well, if you're, if you're digging on Gene and you want to learn more, the best place is to go to farmsanctuary.com.

• 1:35:19Speaker 01

  Or dot org.

• 1:35:19Rich Roll?

  Dot org, yes. And, and you're online, you're an easy guy to find, but on Twitter, is it just Gene Bauer?

• 1:35:26Speaker 01

  Gene Bauer, yeah.

• 1:35:26Rich Roll?

  B A U R.

• 1:35:28Speaker 01

  No E.

• 1:35:29Rich Roll?

  B A U R, no E.

• 1:35:30Speaker 01

  That's right, exactly.

• 1:35:31Rich Roll?

  Bauer, like the hockey equipment company, right?

• 1:35:34Speaker 01

  I'm not sure. Do they have an E in that or not?

• 1:35:36Rich Roll?

  There's an E?

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  I'm not sure. There's an E.

• 1:35:37Rich Roll?

  Oh, maybe I'm wrong.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  Just no E, is the main thing, just the four-letter word, B A U R.

• 1:35:42Rich Roll?

  Right, cool, man. Thanks so much for doing the podcast.

• 1:35:45Speaker 01

  Always love seeing you, Rich. Thanks a lot.

• 1:35:47Rich Roll?

  I appreciate it. Peace.

• 1:35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, man.

• 1:35:49Rich Roll?

  Plants.

• 1:35:57Rich Roll?

  Good stuff, you guys. Gene's a real deal. Don't forget to pick up his new book, check him out, and show him some love on Instagram, Twitter, and the like. So let's support this guy together. Send me your questions for future Q and A podcasts. We're going to queue one of those up pretty soon. Send those to [email protected]. I know before I was saying [email protected]. Well, we have a new email for all your Q and A questions, [email protected]. To find all the information, education products, tools, resources, and inspiration you need to take your health, wellness, fitness, and self-actualization to the next level, go to richroll.com, peruse our nutrition products, our educational products, and yes, our garments, all made with 100% organic cotton. If you like online courses,

• 1:36:42Rich Roll?

  I got a couple of those at Mind Body Green, The Ultimate Guide to Plant-Based Nutrition, and The Art of Living with Purpose, both affordably priced. Go to mindbodygreen.com for more information on those. If you like the podcast, give us a review on iTunes. Pick up the free app in the App Store to listen to episodes older than the most recent 50, and keep supporting the show by telling your friends, using the Amazon banner ad, and by sharing it on social media. Keep Instagramming, you guys, and just tag me at Rich Roll. Peace. Plants.