The Perilous Fight: Colin Kaepernick On The True Costs Of Conviction

Colin Kaepernick is a Super Bowl quarterback, civil rights activist, and author of the new memoir "The Perilous Fight." Ten years after taking a knee, Colin opens up about the parts of the story we didn't see, from the death threats to the fourth-grade letter where he wrote down his future. And yes, he still trains most mornings. Colin is undeniable. This conversation was an honor. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Prolon: Get 15% OFF sitewide + a $40 bonus gift👉🏼https://www.prolonlife.com/richroll AG1: Get the Welcome Kit + D3 + K2 + Flavor sampler pack FREE ($126 in gifts)👉🏼https://www.drinkAG1.com/richroll Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much👉🏼https://www.airbnb.com/host Eight Sleep: Get $350 off your Pod 6 with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.eightsleep.com/richroll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://stories.rivian.com/richroll Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

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• 1:20Speaker 01

  Surprising amount of people have come up and they're like, "I hated you. I've seen what you've done over the years, and you were right."

• 1:29Speaker 02

  Colin Kaepernick, he's the San Francisco 49ers quarterback. Knelt instead of standing during the National Anthem. A gesture to protest discrimination against minorities in the US.

• 1:38Rich Roll?

  Sparked both unity and outrage.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  The experiences navigating police, the experiences navigating racism, ultimately led up to that moment of protesting in 2016.

• 1:50Speaker 01

  Protesting and saying, "Police shouldn't kill black people," was controversial. There were death threats, people trying to send bombs to the house.

• 1:59Rich Roll?

  You're sharing these experiences that you haven't talked about before, about what it was like to be you in a predominantly white neighborhood, racial slurs, et cetera. Like, you had white parents who loved you, but just couldn't understand this.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  I don't want people to ever have to go through that. But I also think those moments of struggle, it built an internal resilience around that, and also how you come out the other side. To me, you come out stronger.

• 2:28Rich Roll?

  Is there still an aspiration or a possibility that you could return to the NFL as a quarterback?

• 2:41Rich Roll?

  This is so cool, man. I'm so happy to meet you. I'm delighted to spend this time with you. Congratulations on the new book. It's just exciting for me to meet you.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you. I'm excited as well. This is, I mean, it's a pleasure to be here.

• 2:57Rich Roll?

  The book is sort of equal parts memoir and manifesto. And it's also a kind of primer on resilience, you know? Like, you see all these experiences that you have that have made you this resilient human being, who is preparing himself to weather like what you've had to weather.

• 3:17Rich Roll?

  There are those two, like, near-death experiences that you talk about. Like, you spun out on black ice and almost went off a cliff.

• 3:26Rich Roll?

  You were at gunpoint, you know, on the precipice of a double homicide, I guess, in college, right?

• 3:32Speaker 01

  Triple.

• 3:32Rich Roll?

  Triple, yeah. Which left you with this sense of life being precious, but also maybe a fearlessness as well, and an additional, like, degree of courage to kind of do the things that you've done. But what I really didn't know about you and learned a lot about was the dynamic that you grew up in as a child. Like, I knew that you grew up in Wisconsin and had white parents, et cetera. But the book just blasts you, you know, right from the get-go with like, "Here's what it was like when I was a kid, and I was in 4th grade, and these white kids like tied me to a rose tree," you know? And racial slurs, et cetera. Like, right out of the gate,

• 4:17Rich Roll?

  you're sharing these experiences that you haven't talked about before, about what it was like to be you in a predominantly white neighborhood. Not only on the receiving end of this kind of treatment consistently, you know, throughout your life, you share all of these stories. But I think the real important piece here is that

• 4:39Rich Roll?

  you had parents who loved you, but just couldn't understand this, and really didn't want to have the conversation, and couldn't create a safe place for you. So you learned early and often that it wasn't safe to open up to these people who are charged with taking care of you, what you were experiencing. And so you had to develop this dual identity of who you were. And I interpret that as a unhealed childhood wound that I think explains so much about who you are and why you've made the decisions that you've made.

• 5:16Speaker 01

  It's an interesting dynamic to navigate. And, you know, I look at it less as a dual identity, but more so an awareness that you have to navigate, and understanding how you show up in different spaces. And that was one that I knew throughout my neighborhood, walking into my house, there were going to be certain parts of me that,

• 5:50Speaker 01

  and how my blackness showed up, like, there are going to be battles there. And I think it built an internal resilience around that of in constantly being in a position where you are having to defend who you are and just how you show up in a space. You get comfortable feeling, having this sense of isolation of like, "Oh, I'll have to figure this out by myself. I have to navigate this myself." Turlock does not have a significant black population.

• 6:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 6:27Speaker 01

  So there also weren't a lot of, you know, black mentors within the community that I was able to turn to.

• 6:36Speaker 01

  And I think the thing that I've learned, looking back on all of the moments where there are racist attacks, I now look at those as moments that were opportunities to build resilience,

• 6:56Speaker 01

  build a level of focus, awareness,

• 7:01Speaker 01

  to be able to move forward and make sure that those aren't repeated. And ultimately has gotten me to a space where, regardless of what the situation is, I look at it as an opportunity.

• 7:16Speaker 01

  Now, maybe very uncomfortable opportunities, but it may be an opportunity to show our resilience, to be able to show who we are, to be able to get better, to be able to bring people along and educate them in moments.

• 7:33Speaker 01

  But on the other side of that, seeing success, I think is something that has allowed me to take those. And while they are traumatic moments,

• 7:48Speaker 01

  I don't have to accept them as something that we're just purely negative. And I, you know, I don't want people to ever have to go through that.

• 7:58Speaker 01

  But I also think those moments of struggle,

• 8:02Speaker 01

  they build and shape you in your character, and also how you come out the other side. To me, you come out stronger, again, even in the worst situations.

• 8:15Rich Roll?

  Somebody else who was reared in a similar set of circumstances might have made a different decision to assimilate, to go along to get along.

• 8:26Rich Roll?

  It sounds like maybe your parents would have preferred that for you. You know, what was it about you, do you think, reflecting back on that period of your life, that made you decide to, you know, go in this other direction and really, like, you know, honor your heritage in this really kind of strident way?

• 8:47Speaker 01

  I'm not sure if that is just like innate personality of who I am.

• 8:53Rich Roll?

  There's a little like punk rock fuck you, you know? And maybe that's because of some of the, you know, experiences that you had when you were a kid. But, you know, there's an anti-authoritarian streak that runs consistently through you.

• 9:06Speaker 01

  Well, I think it's that. I think it's also some of the competitive nature. I also think when you're in a space where just who you are is constantly challenged.

• 9:21Speaker 01

  You you get to a place where it's like, well, the authority doesn't make sense. Like you're telling me who I am isn't acceptable. Um, and that that also gives me a space where, you know, looking at some of the the leaders in the sports realm that I looked up to, Allen Iverson and Randy Moss and Ken Griffey Jr., all players that in their respective fields, like, this is who I am and this is how I show up. And I'm also the best at what I do.

• 9:58Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. Then you're undeniable.

• 10:00Speaker 01

  You become undeniable. You also become the space where, and I I got to see it through them and I I felt like there was a direct correlation to what I was going through. Uh, you're undeniable at your sport. You're undeniable at your profession. But they were also constantly critiqued, um, and hammered on who they were and just how they showed up within that environment. And it was primarily around their blackness and around their culture. And for me, seeing that also gave me a sense of, I don't have

• 10:42Speaker 01

  to assimilate. And from a young age, I was, like, naturally, I was pushing back on that. But it also gave me perspective on, oh, there's other people that are navigating this and they've made it to the highest levels without having to. And that message came through loud and clear. What also came through loud and clear was them just showing up as who they are, position them as rebellious, which also was a lot of what I faced from a young age. Wearing my natural hair or how I dress, um, the music I listen to, um, all of those

• 11:24Speaker 01

  things became like, oh, you're you're being rebellious or this is a phase. At some point, you'll you'll you'll come back to to the norm of what what our, uh, what our environment or culture is within the community. And that just that just isn't the case.

• 11:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Yeah. The premise that if you're undeniable, then you will be accepted is a flawed premise. When you become undeniable, then the reaction is like, well, what do you have to complain about? You've won. You're at the highest level. You're being handsomely rewarded for this. You're you're a celebrity. Everybody loves you. Like, calm down.

• 12:09Speaker 01

  You get that and you also get, when you reach the the highest levels, the the level of influence that you have culturally across society also becomes a perspective of, no, we actually are going to try harder to get you to assimilate because we actually want the most successful and the leaders in our our positions. And I I think about this from the quarterback position specifically, this should fit this this white CEO type, um, profile. And like, when there's variance of that, the push or the pull to try to get

• 12:51Speaker 01

  you to be like, be as close to that as possible, becomes so significant. And it it shows up from from coaches, it shows up from the organization, it shows up from society more broadly, um, it shows up from some players.

• 13:08Speaker 01

  And being able to to resist that and stay true to just who you are and how you show up in the world also becomes important because the same way that I got a very clear message from Allen Iverson and Randy Moss and Ken Griffey and and a host of others, become the same opportunity to be able to show people a world where our leaders can look different. They can culturally be different. You can still go out and succeed at the highest level and you don't have to just assimilate to what is viewed as the status quo or the norm.

• 13:47Rich Roll?

  As your cultural currency increases and you become more successful, more prosperous, more celebrated, the resistance to that in you being your fully actualized self becomes exponentially high. It's like it ramps up in lockstep, right? Or even like the resistance exceeds exceeds that. It's almost as if it's designed to, you know, get you to some kind of breaking point with it.

• 14:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the the other part is the the levers utilized within that become different as well. Whereas

• 14:27Rich Roll?

  Say more about that.

• 14:28Speaker 01

  As a young age, it's like, it may be your family, it may be friends or coaches or direct community. When you get to the highest level, you'll you'll get the GM, um, you'll get the coaches, the GM, you'll get, uh, ownership, you may have, um, you know, fans, you may have politicians, um, you may have corporate partners, all become influential people that are like, oh, you know, we want to do this deal with you, but we need it to look like this. But we're going to pay you a lot of money. But like, it needs to look and feel like this.

• 15:10Rich Roll?

  The temptations become more tempting.

• 15:13Speaker 01

  The temptations become more tempting, the dollar amounts become larger too. No, even with with contracts, it's, well, we're going to pay you a lot of money. Like, you need to act like the face of the organization. And it it's typically never explicitly stated. Um, but I got it in terms of, hey, well, you shouldn't get any more tattoos. Like, you know, as as the quarterback and leader of a historic organization, like, you know, you need to look the part. It's like, well, define what that look is.

• 15:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Turn on any NFL game today. You know, like, it's so, like, we were talking earlier before you got here about how so many things that were just, you know, cultural bombshells 10 years ago would be like nothing now. And you watch any NFL game, like, everybody's just got sleeves, you know, everybody. And you're getting grief for wearing a sleeveless hoodie or like whatever it was that you were doing, uh, was like causing all these problems for you now that looking back now, I mean, do you think like, goddamn, man, like, you know, like, if you were coming up now in the NFL, like, would it have been different?

• 16:33Speaker 01

  A little bit, but the the pressure still exists there. Um, there is, um, and there are more black quarterbacks in that position now. So I think that has grown and evolved because, um, because of the performance, because of the style of offense, like, again, it has to be undeniable before people start shifting, um, which is unfortunate, but it's the reality. I think culturally, um, a lot of that still exists that, and a lot of the black quarterbacks that come in, it's like, you, in large part, you know, you have to

• 17:18Speaker 01

  uphold a certain standard and a presence, um, that may not otherwise be just the norm. For me, beyond the tattoos was like, wearing a snapback was like, you can't do that. Like, you're a leader of the team. It's like, but I'm going out and performing at a high level. Like, we just, we just went to a Super Bowl. We just went back to an NFC championship game. Like, I'm performing and showing up for the team in the way that I need to. While I think there has been movement there, I think there's still a much longer way to go.

• 17:59Rich Roll?

  How does that square with, uh, guys like Deshaun Watson, who get the $230 million contract and are all in all kinds of trouble?

• 18:11Speaker 01

  I actually don't know how that one even happened. Um, but what the NFL does have a a history of is, you know, players that have had off the field issues, coming back in and being welcomed back into the NFL with with open arms.

• 18:31Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 18:31Speaker 01

  Um, in large part. And the thing that I think about most in relation to that is it gives the NFL leverage and it gives the teams leverage to be able to demand a higher level of obedience. Like, we helped you out of this situation. We we looked out for you.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  Now you're going to do exactly what we tell you to do. Like, you you remember that, right? And I think that's a dynamic that it it's important for people to understand because I I've seen it show up, um, over the years. It becomes almost a space where it's like,

• 19:22Speaker 01

  You're going to be our player that we help, that helps get the other players to move the way that we want them to, which is, you know, it's an interesting piece and players, like you feel it and you see it because ultimately those players show up differently on the other side of it.

• 19:44Rich Roll?

  With the exception of the superstars, most NFL careers are super short. There's so many players. So that like power dynamic or that looming threat is really existential for a lot of these athletes because they don't know even from game to game if they're going to still remain on the team. So it allows like a kind of iron fist approach that I suspect is different in the NBA where there's fewer players and you know, like these kinds of maneuvers and machinations would be a little bit more difficult, but because there's so many players on an NFL team, you can move those pieces around in a pretty facile way, which gives the ownership more leverage.

• 20:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, that, that's one of the interesting dynamics of football is because your success is so reliant on your teammates. You have 10 other people on the field with you that if they don't execute, you can look really bad as a player. Also gives teams leverage to say, oh, well, we'll replace you at any point in time. And you can also be set up to, to fail. Like if teams don't want to succeed and they don't want players to do well, you know what, we're going to draw this, these routes up. You're actually not

• 21:08Speaker 01

  even going to be in the read. You'll be on the field, but like the football isn't coming your way. So your catches may drop. Your, your yards and your touchdowns can drop. Like as a running back, like, oh, you're going to get fewer carries. You get down the red zone, we're going to put someone else in that they're going to be the one who gets the touchdown.

• 21:29Rich Roll?

  Even if it's not in the interest of the team winning.

• 21:33Speaker 01

  Those are things that in football, you have levers to pull that are a little bit harder in the instance of like basketball where it, if you put LeBron on the worst team, like he could still go get 50 if he wants to. And I'll be like, well, he's putting up numbers, but he's on a bad team. In football, you can't just go on a solo mission and be like, hey, I'm just going to go out and get mine.

• 22:04Rich Roll?

  Do my thing. Yeah.

• 22:05Speaker 01

  Because 10 other players have to do that too. And you also have control of coaches calling plays. So it, it creates a dynamic of no, you, you need to fall in line and you need to be obedient because you also know there's a level of control over your success that isn't just dependent upon you.

• 22:31Rich Roll?

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• 25:06Rich Roll?

  You have been relatively quiet over the last 10 years. I think there's a lot of speculation like, what has he been up to? What is he doing now? Like if you, if you enter a Google search, it's sort of, if you put your name in, like one of the top things is like, what is he doing now? Here we are 10 years post the kneel. You've got this book coming out and you've made this conscious decision that now is the moment that you kind of want to talk about all of this. But you haven't been talking about it all along in the way that you could have. So why now with the book? Is it because of the 10 year anniversary? Is it something that has to do with where you're at in life? What is going on that

• 25:50Rich Roll?

  you're now in this moment deciding to enter back into the public discourse?

• 25:57Speaker 01

  I mean, the 10 year anniversary is, I mean, it, it lined up great that way as far as the book releasing, but I think more importantly, looking at where we're at as a country and society and the work that needs to be done. I think there's a lot more momentum and movement that needs to happen and being able to make sure that, that people have urgent urgency around that. I think is one of the, the things that led to this moment. This is also something that's been years in the making. Like the last 10 years, while I may not have been doing sit down interviews, like that work has continued.

• 26:40Rich Roll?

  Yeah, just not in that public facing media kind of way.

• 26:44Speaker 01

  Yeah. And the, I think the other part that people don't realize is during the 2016 season, like as a quarterback, you're required to speak three times a day. So the press could come in, they'll just ask you whatever they want. So the frequency that people saw me in 2016 in part was because of an obligation, being an NFL quarterback. And then after that it was, well, we have, we have very intentional work that we have to be doing. And I spent most of my time focused on that as opposed to, to doing a lot of the, the sit down interviews and, and some of the media pieces.

• 27:23Rich Roll?

  You've got all of these initiatives, you know, around educating underprivileged youth, providing them with the tools and understanding they need to know about how to navigate the world, et cetera. Do you want to just share a little bit about that? Because I think it fills in the gaps of like, what have you been doing? You've actually been doing a lot.

• 27:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So we founded Know Your Rights Camp, which is our foundation where we do a lot of the, the community focused work. We started ideating on that in 2015. 2016, we did our first camp and the focus there was how do we make sure that our community and our kids are making it home safe? Now we're, we're seeing this wave of police killings of black people. We're, we're seeing it very visceral, viscerally on video. Our first step was how we make sure we make a, get them home safe. Then how do we set them up to thrive? And we built the camps out around that. As we were doing that, that also allowed us to partner

• 28:28Speaker 01

  with other community-based organizations, with school districts, educators and other people that were doing work just directly on the ground. It allowed us to build out a broader network in all of the cities that we're in. So we've done this across the country. Now, as we were doing that, we continued to build upon it and that led to the launch of our autopsy initiative, giving free second, second autopsies to families who have lost a loved one while in custody. And no, beyond that, we, during 2020, we launched a COVID-19

• 29:07Speaker 01

  initiative. We launched a legal defense initiative. So holistically, we've tried to approach it from a space of what is the need of the community and how do we serve that need and build programs and initiatives around that?

• 29:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What is your sense of the political climate now versus what it was like 10 years ago when you took a knee and it was this flashpoint in culture? Cause a lot's happened since then.

• 29:37Speaker 01

  I think where we're at politically is we have a, a small group of people who are trying to redirect the country back 50, 100 plus years culturally and systemically.

• 29:56Speaker 01

  What I see more broadly, though, is people on the ground and the overwhelming majority of the country rejecting that and saying, no, that's actually not the future envision we have for this country. We're, we're going to go out and make sure that we're, we're supporting things to, that actually create equity, that actually create justice, that allow us to collectively thrive. And we, we've seen that show up with the work on the ground. We're seeing that show up with the politicians that people are supporting.

• 30:30Speaker 01

  No, we're, we're in New York right now and Mamdani just recently got elected. We're seeing Abdul Al Said. We're seeing Angie Nixon. We're seeing candidates that previously may not have been the ones that would be at the forefront because of where we're at politically. And I think the, the groundwork of the last 10 years and 10 plus years has ultimately led us to a space where people are rethinking how they're viewing the, the political sphere, how they want to engage with it, and who they think should be representing them as part of that.

• 31:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It does feel like the course is writing itself a little bit in comparison to even just a few years ago. The right wing has been on a whole journey with their relationship to patriotism. And there's this interesting kind of internal conflict around distrust of institutions and this growing kind of disconcert with how the administration is operating that I think is setting us up for a new era and age. And the politicians you mentioned, of course, being, you know, kind of at the front lines of that. I think it's a really interesting time, but you know, it's been a rickety kind of Coney Island

• 31:52Rich Roll?

  roller coaster ride, you know, for the last couple of years. And I think back on, you know, that moment, that flashpoint moment for you, all that's happened in the wake of that, progress regression. In the wake of that, though, in the immediate kind of experience of that, like, this is what your book is really exploring because you could have gone on a route where you were just a constant presence on television, talking about these issues. Many people would have taken that route and you decided to take a more kind of boots on the ground, impact trajectory for yourself. But it's allowed other people to decide the narrative for you. And this book is your opportunity to

• 32:37Rich Roll?

  share your perspective on what this was like. And I think there's a lot of people who are really interested in like, what was that like? I mean, can you imagine what a crazy experience you must have had to weather that at that time? So what do people not understand about what happened and what you were going through, leading up to that decision and in the aftermath of it?

• 33:02Speaker 01

  The, the lead up to the decision, I think is an area that I think has a lot of parallels to my football career, where people assume it came out of nowhere. Like, oh, how this had like, we didn't expect this. But it was actually years and a lifetime in the making. And I say that through, through my lived experiences, growing up black in a predominantly white community, growing up black in an adopted family. My family is all white. And the experiences navigating police, the experiences navigating racism,

• 33:44Speaker 01

  having to educate myself and, and learn and do research and auditing graduate classes at Berkeley, like, all of those experiences ultimately led up to that moment of protesting in 2016. In addition to seeing the, the political climate of what was happening. Now, this is on the back of, of Mike Brown being killed and Eric Garner and Tamir Rice. And then more recently into 2016 was Mario Woods, Freddie Gray, Alton Sterling, Philando Castile. And that, that's the backdrop that leads into the protest. Similarly to the football

• 34:24Speaker 01

  side, like, when I first start in the NFL, that's 15 plus years in the making. So all of that leads to that moment and ultimately becomes a decision of now that I have a better understanding of the systems that are perpetuating this as opposed to looking at them as one-off instances. What am I going to do about it? Do I, do I take this understanding and just sit back and be like, man, I hope someone fixes it? Or do I take action and try to affect change in the, the best way possible? In the ways that I feel like I have access

• 35:07Speaker 01

  and the ability to. And that's ultimately what led to that moment. On the, the other side of it, I mean, the, the amount of manipulation of the narrative and the deflection and distractions that were created was, was something that was really interesting to see play out in real time. And we're constantly trying to navigate because in protesting, specifically saying systemic oppression, and specifically police brutality, what was portrayed in the

• 35:48Speaker 01

  media over and over again was, you know, is it disrespectful to the flag? Is it about the military? Like, how you're protesting? And the majority of media actually didn't want to focus on the issue and try to resolve the issue. The other part that I found really interesting in that moment was just foundationally protesting and say, police shouldn't kill black people was controversial. Like, I want people to take a minute and step back and

• 36:25Speaker 01

  just think about that, like, and being upset with that. What does that say about what you actually believe?

• 36:37Rich Roll?

  It's uncomfortable to hold a mirror up to America and force them to look at something they'd rather not. So that's a natural reaction that comes from a place of denial because it's an uncomfortable truth. The irony is that the essence of patriotism and citizenship is speaking truth to power. I mean, this is the essence of the Fourth Amendment and the First Amendment. And yet, your actions were interpreted as treasonous instead of basically your constitutional right and kind of the principled upon like,

• 37:21Rich Roll?

  what the founding fathers intended, which is that this is a democracy and we should all be able to speak up and make our voices heard. But you're doing it in the context of a very powerful institution that commands the attention of, you know, hundreds of millions of people. So much money, so much at stake, and you, you were a threat to the sanctity of that institution. And that's an additional discomfort that was intolerable.

• 37:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And it, to that point, I think it also speaks to the, the foundation of the country and who has rights and who actually gets to access them and who gets to practice them. I think that becomes something that is also important for people to, to take and analyze. Like, if we actually are a democracy, if there actually is equality for all and liberty for all and justice for all, why is this upsetting?

• 38:28Speaker 01

  Like if you believe in all of these things, you should be excited about this.

• 38:32Rich Roll?

  If you had to answer that for the people who were upset, they would say?

• 38:38Speaker 01

  I mean, I think they would go back to all of the the deflection tactics of like, well, it's the it's the wrong place. It's the wrong time, like the the impact and influence of all of these other things. I think a lot of those conversations became disingenuous.

• 38:56Speaker 01

  Again, to deflect from the actual conversation of we have a major issue with the institution of policing.

• 39:07Speaker 01

  And that that was also important for me to understand the historical perspective of policing. Like, the immediate issue was, how do we make sure that they they stop killing black people? But also having an understanding of policing within the United States came out of slave patrols. And the progression and development of that, the role that that plays in supporting and becoming a feeder into the prison industrial complex. Like, these are all systems that have been built within the United States.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  And actually analyzing that in a way of how do we actually build institutions that keep people safe, allow them to thrive? And actually build a better future. Today, those institutions are not doing that. So we actually need to rethink the outcomes that we're trying to produce. And what different approaches we can take to actually get there.

• 40:11Rich Roll?

  The intention going into it being, let's have a discussion about this. Let's see some progress here. But that message getting lost in, you know, this sea of of just personal attacks, etc. Like, like, was progress made? How do you feel about like, what happened? And what could have happened had things been different?

• 40:35Speaker 01

  Well, I think there was, I would say, we also focus a lot on, and what I see more broadly focused on a lot is like, the the pushback that occurred.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  But it's also important to acknowledge, there's massive support as well. And there were people that were like, yes, we've been waiting for this.

• 41:02Speaker 01

  We have work to do. Now we can get people moving.

• 41:06Speaker 01

  So the the awareness and getting people talking about it was was step one. But step two is now we actually have to take action against this and start changing the systems and getting people moving towards that. And over the last 10 years, we've seen this show up within policy changes, primarily at local and state levels. We've seen it show up with additional institutions being built within communities. We've seen it show up in relation to sending out social workers as opposed to police. When we have issues where it's typically a mental he- health crisis or things of that nature.

• 41:46Speaker 01

  And those have been all all been ways that there has been progress made.

• 41:52Speaker 01

  At the same time, we're also seeing in a place where 10 years later, police killings are up. Police budgets have expanded. I think it paints the picture of the work that's been done has been important, but we have to go further with it. And we have to continue to push to make sure that we're making those changes because right now, the trajectory we're on still hasn't reached a place where we're creating a safer environment.

• 42:23Rich Roll?

  I would imagine that you knew full well when you decided to take the knee. And just so people understand, it wasn't one incident. I mean, first, you you sat for the first couple of games, like, no one said boo about the whole thing. There's a whole story behind the decision to then adopt the Neil. The media catches on. There's this, you know, massive response to this. I suspect you knew there would be a response and the response would probably be very controversial and attract a lot of attention, negative and positive.

• 43:02Rich Roll?

  But I doubt that you could have ever imagined the extent to which, you know, it it became so inflamed. And I'm curious around like, that expectation versus reality. And also, like, behind closed doors, like, what it was like for you, just emotionally?

• 43:20Speaker 01

  You never know where things are gonna go or how they're gonna show up. I'll say, I I had to understand the historical perspective of what has happened to other athletes and other people that have taken similar stands and positions. In the moment, it was also something that regardless of whether or not there was attention around it or that became a larger protest.

• 43:49Speaker 01

  I also knew it was something for me personally, being able to look myself in the mirror and say, I'm doing the things I can to try to change this system, to try to make sure people make it home safely. And that was the initial impetus of it.

• 44:07Speaker 01

  As it became larger, you can't you can't predict it becoming a a national conversation, an international conversation, a movement.

• 44:19Speaker 01

  Navigating that is interesting because

• 44:23Speaker 01

  there's a lot of conversations that you have to have behind closed doors of here's what we're trying to accomplish, here's how we're approaching it.

• 44:33Speaker 01

  And on the other side of it, what people do with that, like, you don't have control over. And that's an interesting part of trying to navigate is how do you bring people along and get them to understand?

• 44:49Speaker 01

  And also make sure that

• 44:53Speaker 01

  in actions that people are going to take, you know, create further fragmentation. And you're able to create an alignment of messaging and goals and outcomes that you're working towards. Behind closed doors, it is constant, like, strategizing. Because you're

• 45:14Speaker 01

  we were navigating situations that we just, there's no way that you can prepare for.

• 45:23Speaker 01

  I mean, the the media response is one component of it. Trying to organize players is another, the response from the the NFL and NFL owners is another piece of it.

• 45:37Speaker 01

  At that point in time, Donald Trump on the campaign trail is using it as part of his his political messaging.

• 45:47Speaker 01

  And that becomes another component of how we navigate. So it becomes all of these different pieces that while in the middle of a football season and making sure I'm still preparing to go out and play

• 46:01Speaker 01

  and be successful with the team.

• 46:04Speaker 01

  Also strategizing and doing all of that work behind closed doors.

• 46:10Speaker 01

  How do we make sure that we're building and continue to move this forward and helping organize people on the ground?

• 46:17Rich Roll?

  Death threats, bomb scares. I mean, your personal safety, you know, is in question. I'm sure you're communicate, like, I'm sure you had friends who said, you know, you're my guy, but like, I just can't say anything publicly. Or people you thought were your friends who suddenly are, you know, backing away from you. Like, the experience of like, figuring out like, who really stands with you? Knowing that anybody who does is incurring that same risk, right? Like, there's a lot on the line. And you knew enough to know that you were risking a lot when you did that.

• 46:58Rich Roll?

  So what was it, in addition to kind of this awakening that you're having around your passion for these issues and the position of power that you were in to do something about it? Was there a particular moment where you knew, like, I I'm gonna, I'm gonna roll the dice on this? I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this? Versus just like, well, maybe, you know, tomorrow, or maybe I'll let somebody else do it. Like, I have a lot to lose.

• 47:27Speaker 01

  One of the things that I think about a good amount is

• 47:33Speaker 01

  if we're actually going to be part of a society,

• 47:39Speaker 01

  what is our role within that beyond just our individual interests?

• 47:46Speaker 01

  And to me, part of that responsibility is when you do have success, when you do have access and opportunity, how do you use that to create broader opportunity and help other people thrive? And if we aren't doing that, I just don't look at that as like, society. That that just becomes like pure individualism, like, how do I get mine and how do I accumulate as much as possible? Like, where's that leave us? Where's that leave us collectively? And for me, in being in that position, I I've made it to a place where I'm playing in the NFL.

• 48:31Speaker 01

  I've accomplished the dream of getting there. There's still a lot more I want to do within it and a lot more success I want to have with it. But at the same time,

• 48:43Speaker 01

  I'm seeing people not being able to make it home. And I think there's a responsibility to each other in that process

• 48:53Speaker 01

  to be able to fight and protect protect each other.

• 48:57Speaker 01

  And, you know, on the back end of that, to your point, yes, the the death threats, people trying to send bombs to the house, those things came along with it.

• 49:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 49:10Speaker 01

  But I also know those are

• 49:14Speaker 01

  those are intentional efforts to try to deter the action of creating that change. And

• 49:23Speaker 01

  I, and maybe this is, maybe this is the football side of me and like, the

• 49:30Speaker 01

  Some may say stubborn, I will say persistent side of me. It's like, that's, that's not gonna stop me. And, you know, some, some of what I, I mentioned in the book as well is like, I'd faced death in my life previously. So I also wa- was comfortable with the idea of like, almost that I, I'm playing with house money. I had escaped those moments and made it through and passed them. And now in a place that, and I'm gonna push the bounds with the time that I have. And I hope that has, I hope that has a tremendously long time.

• 50:17Speaker 01

  But same time, like, I, I can't let that stop me from doing the work. I also know

• 50:26Speaker 01

  other people may not be willing to take that same approach or take the same risks.

• 50:33Speaker 01

  But you can still help in other ways. If you aren't willing to show up in, in the same way that, that I think people should have.

• 50:43Speaker 01

  There are still other ways to be supportive of the efforts and of the work and be able to take action that may not put you in the same light or same position that I was in.

• 50:55Rich Roll?

  This episode is brought to you by Eight Sleep. And oh, man, I can't wait to tell you what these guys are up to. If you've listened to this show for any length of time, you've heard me bang on about sleep as the single highest leverage recovery tool there is, hands down. And when people ask me what to actually do about it, my answer is always the same. Dial in your sleep hygiene. And one of the ways that I do that is through the POD by Eight Sleep. It's this smart mattress cover that really has been, hands down, the biggest game changer in terms of how well I sleep. Eight Sleep just launched the next generation, POD 6. And they're offering my audience, all of you guys, up to $200 off. I haven't even gotten my hands on one yet. I can't wait.

• 51:37Rich Roll?

  But the POD 6 sports the lowest starting price Eight Sleep has ever offered. They also shrunk the hub by 50%. So it tucks under most bed frames now, so the tech basically disappears. And everything I love carries over, smart sleep tracking and cooling or heating each side of the bed from 55 to 110 degrees Fahrenheit. The POD 6 delivers up to 34% more deep sleep. Individual results may vary, of course. Use my code RICHROLL at eightsleep.com/richroll for up to $200 off the POD 6. You get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't love it. Pretty confident you will. Autonomy wasn't something I was thinking much about when I recently got behind the

• 52:21Rich Roll?

  wheel of a Rivian R2 with founder and CEO RJ Skarren. But when RJ started talking about where Rivian is headed with it, I couldn't stop thinking about it after. What's your latest thinking on the short and long-term future of autonomous driving?

• 52:39Speaker 03

  I think short-term, it's gonna continue to get better. For us, we get to a place by the end of this year where we'll do hands-off, point-to-point navigation. So meaning you could plug the address in, say, tell it to go and it'll drive there on its own. Today, we have hands-off, what we call universal hands-free, where you can take your hands off, it can drive, but it essentially stays on the path it's on. But the next step is integrate that into navigation. So it navigates through turns, obviously stoplights, stop signs, everything. And that's this year. And then next year, we get to that plus eyes-off. So we'll start with eyes-off on highways, so you can be completely removed.

• 53:17Rich Roll?

  It doesn't beep.

• 53:18Speaker 03

  It doesn't beep.

• 53:18Rich Roll?

  You can put your hands back.

• 53:19Speaker 03

  Yeah, you can do whatever you'd like. Yeah, you can do whatever you'd like.

• 53:22Rich Roll?

  The autonomy and assisted driving features on the R2 today and the ones on the horizon are just part of what makes it such a compelling vehicle. You can learn all about the Rivian R2, watch the rest of our conversation, and even book a demo drive at stories.rivian.com/richroll.

• 53:45Rich Roll?

  The other thing that I learned reading your book, and this is crazy, is this premonition that you had, like, you literally wrote down your future when you were a little kid. How much you were gonna weigh, how tall you were gonna be, and that you were gonna play for the 49ers. Like, I wanna know all about this.

• 54:07Speaker 01

  So it was a, a fourth grade project. And it was a time capsule project. And I remember my, my teacher, Mr. Sutterly,

• 54:20Speaker 01

  gave, gave us this assignment and he was like, you're, you're gonna write out where you think you're gonna be. And I think it was, it was like 15 years from now or 20 years from now. And I remember writing down like who my friends were, but then like where I was gonna be in the future, I was gonna be playing for the Packers or 49ers, even if they weren't good. And I was gonna be six foot four. I forget the weight I put in there. It was somewhere like 170 to 190 pounds, I think.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  And it ultimately came to fruition.

• 55:06Speaker 01

  Slightly taller, 6'5", got drafted by the 49ers. I think it's a, an interesting component of like writing down your goals and being able to manifest them. And at that point in time, I didn't, I even realized that's what that was. But being able to manifest that and almost preparing yourself mentally for that outcome. So as you're training, as you're going through games and preparation and trying to bring that about, like mentally, you are already in that space of where you're gonna be headed.

• 55:46Speaker 01

  And the, the second time this showed up was actually when I got to the 49ers. And Jim Harbaugh, who was our coach at the time, made the entire team write down their goals for the season. And I was going into my second year at that point in time and wrote down,

• 56:11Speaker 01

  I'm gonna be a starter. At this point, I was a backup. I hadn't, hadn't played. I'm gonna be a starter and we're gonna go to the Super Bowl. And I remember him coming to me after and he had read through all of them. He was like, do you think you'll be able to accomplish these this season?

• 56:32Speaker 01

  I remember looking at him and I was like, yes. And at that point, I'm, I'm the backup and I, I don't know if he was asking that as like, hey, are you ready for it? Or if he was asking like, all right, are these realistic goals for you? But either way, my mind, I was, yes, that's, that is what I'm focused on. And ultimately, in the middle of that season, Alex gets hurt.

• 57:02Speaker 01

  And we go to the Super Bowl. My, my 10th start in the NFL was the Super Bowl. So both of those instances of actually just writing my goals down, got to a space where I was able to manifest them. So I think there's power there. It also makes me feel like I need to write more things down.

• 57:23Rich Roll?

  What did you write down this morning?

• 57:27Rich Roll?

  No, I think it's a really powerful lesson in like the action-based

• 57:33Rich Roll?

  idea of, of manifest. It's like, oh, man, like manifest your dreams. Like, it's, it's sort of an airy-fairy thing. But there are, there is a practical application to that. First of all, you have to believe, you have to truly believe in the possibility of that. And there is something about writing it down that cements it and like seeds this story that you begin to tell yourself, that leads you to make decisions and take actions that maybe you wouldn't have had you not written that down. Even if you forgot that you wrote it down, it's in your, you know, unconscious. And it's kind of doing a little bit of work, right? And I think it's an important tool. I know that I've used, but I was curious around like, like, did that mature into kind

• 58:17Rich Roll?

  of a real, a more formal like visualization practice? Like before games, like, are you imagining how it's gonna go? Like, did you ever have any kind of practice like that, that, that, that would hone your kind of mental game?

• 58:31Speaker 01

  I would do so much of it. And I mean, you get a lot of that going through game film. Like you're, you're watching game film, you're, you're running through that as if you're running the plays and how you would respond to it, what your reads would be, um, what you would do in those situations. But then when you step away from it, um, for me, I, I naturally got to the space where when I'm, I'm at the house, when I'm on the bus on, on the way to the game before the game, like you're going through every play call, you're going through your first and second down plays, you're going through third down, you're going through red zone, you're going through the blitz situations, um, you're going through

• 59:15Speaker 01

  all of your audibles and running those through based upon what you think the defense is going to be doing. And in many ways, you're, you're playing the game many times mentally before you ever step on the field. And I, I believe there's some, some good neuroscience behind this of like, in writing goals down and visualizing that the preparation that you're doing actually reduces the friction when you get to those moments, because it doesn't feel like it's something new. It feels like you've already done it, you've

• 59:55Speaker 01

  already accomplished it. And that just as a practice, I know something within athletics shows up significantly. Um, but I think more broadly is a, a great practice. Um, and it also becomes like meditative.

• 1:00:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Do you do that for things outside of sport? Like for your life? Like anticipate? Like you're, you're about to release this book. Are you like visualizing what this experience is going to be anticipating, you know, some of the stuff that's, you know, going to get hurled in your direction?

• 1:00:29Speaker 01

  Oh, definitely. It's a little bit different, like variation of it. Because within football or within sport, like there's some confines to it.

• 1:00:41Rich Roll?

  It's a contained environment. I mean, there's a lot of variables in football though. So you can only visualize, like, you don't know what's going to happen. There's all these players on the field.

• 1:00:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, you don't, you don't know what's going to happen, but you do get to a space where, you know, they're, they're first and second down, um, on defense, like they may be in a, an over front and cover three as like their, their base, and they may have a couple of variations off of that. They like, okay, I, I have a pretty good sense of like, I may get one to three or four things in this scenario, and you can start playing those out. Um, and then the anomalies that exist outside of that, like you adjust to

• 1:01:27Speaker 01

  in real time. I think when you get outside the confines of sport, then it's, all right, there's so many variables. How do you try to distill it down to like, what you're trying to accomplish? And then what variables you think are most likely to show up? And then going through the scenarios of how would I address those? How would I talk through them? Um, how do you navigate them? So I do that. I'll say, I don't have a, today, I don't have a standard or formalized practice of it. It's something that when I'm not in the

• 1:02:07Speaker 01

  middle of doing work, I, I'm almost always doing some variation of running through scenarios. Um, that's just become more of the norm for me.

• 1:02:18Rich Roll?

  When you think back on that fourth grade assignment, and, you know, kind of reflect on the fact that you like wrote down this thing and it actually happened, like you're a person of faith, you know, what does that tell you about like the way the world works? Beyond just like, we're all powerful and we can create our destiny. Like it almost feels like there's a, there's a deeper spirituality here, you know?

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  It's one of those things that it's hard to reconcile, like, cause it feels like you can create or do anything. Um, and you can, you can manifest that. You obviously have to put the work and the dedication, all of those things into it. But it's hard to, to put that into a definitive space of like, X equals Y. Um, and I think within that is, I don't know what the direct connection or one-to-one connection is.

• 1:03:23Rich Roll?

  But it feels like a sense of fate.

• 1:03:25Speaker 01

  Yeah. It, it does. And at the same time, I also believe like we have control over our destiny. So it's almost a little bit of both. And I, I go back and forth between that of like, oh, were these things always going to happen? Or is this a space that every decision I'm making, I have control over, and it just happened to lead me here? I, I don't know how to reconcile those, but how I approach it just from day to day is I have to, to make the best decisions I can to try to accomplish the, the biggest

• 1:04:10Speaker 01

  possible goals. And I think the thing that it's taught me more than anything is be more ambitious than where I, I think I can go. Because seeing in a fourth grade classroom, like, hey, I'm going to play for the 49ers. At that point in time, people are like, yeah, it's a great dream. Like, good luck on the journey. I, I'd say that's not going to happen for you. Define the odds in that way. I think it also goes to a, a sense of mentality that you have to have in relation to, you have to believe that you can do those things.

• 1:04:53Speaker 01

  And the more that you have a sense of doubt or a sense of like, that's never going to happen. I think you're also manifesting and creating the environment where you're setting barriers in front of yourself, and you won't see the opportunities when they do show up to be like, oh, that may be my chance to actually further myself towards that goal.

• 1:05:18Rich Roll?

  Where does that sense of self-belief come from? I mean, you had it so early.

• 1:05:24Speaker 01

  I think part of it is you, you do have your innate personality of like, I think I was always a little bit of like, I'm going to push the balance and see what I could get away with. Um, but at the same time, I, I think you build upon it over time with the little wins and little successes, and then being able to take those further and further. And it makes me think back to, uh, one moment early in my life, um, I was doing, I was supposed to go to a punt, pass and kick competition, um, which is you, you do a punt, you do a pass, you do a kick, whatever that total is, uh, whoever has the, the highest total

• 1:06:08Speaker 01

  as far as yardage ultimately wins. And I remember going to the first one and I was so nervous. And I, I got to a point that I was like, uh, I don't know if I want to do this. Like, and, you know, my, my parents were there, they're like, you know, just, just go out and try. Like, it's okay, you can, my, and my brother and sister were there. Like, you know, you're, you're going to do great. Just, just get out there. And I go out and I won the competition. And I think the moments like that where it's like, you

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  have a, a fear, or you have a hesitation, or you have a doubt, and you overcome it. And it becomes like, oh, like, I can do that. Now, now let's go to the next one. And I think over time, as you build that up, you get to a place where you have an understanding, every obstacle is an opportunity to be able to show you can do something that you previously weren't able to do. Every doubt that you have is an opportunity to be able to show the, the resilience, um, or the dedication you have to overcoming that. And then that just to me becomes part of who you are. Like you have trained yourself now to a point

• 1:07:36Speaker 01

  where any reality that you want to bring about.

• 1:07:42Speaker 01

  There's just obstacles along the way that you're going to have to get over. But you've already have, you already built this history of overcoming those obstacles. So in many ways, you have trained in practice for that. That gets you to a space that's like, oh, this is just the next version of it.

• 1:08:00Rich Roll?

  You mentioned setting big goals. So what, what are the big goals now? Or you keep them quiet?

• 1:08:07Speaker 01

  The big goals that I think about, um, I mean, obviously the, the work that we're in, the impact that we're trying to have on society. Our efforts are still focused on, uh, addressing police brutality.

• 1:08:23Speaker 01

  Still addressing the prison industrial complex.

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  And being able to resolve those, like those are, those are massive goals. That we want to go out and accomplish. The other one that been very focused on right now. I have a, a company in the education space. And we're trying to address this, this issue of literacy, um, across the country. We have approximately 70% of our students across the country. That aren't proficient at reading and writing. Largely, we've just accepted this as the norm. Like 70% just aren't going to make it. I think.

• 1:09:04Rich Roll?

  Just an insane statistic.

• 1:09:06Speaker 01

  When I was first presented with it is what got me to the space of. This is such a massive issue. That we are not setting people up for success. Coming out the other side of education. To be able to walk into the world and be. Be as successful as possible, be contributors to society in the most meaningful way. And. As we've been doing this work, I, we've been able to work with and, and meet phenomenal people. But we've also been able to look at this through the lens of. We're also going into a present and future with AI. It's all built in natural language.

• 1:09:51Speaker 01

  So our students aren't proficient at the foundational skills of literacy.

• 1:09:58Speaker 01

  Their ability to access and utilize the tools of the future. Actually is largely not going to be there. And. That's a, a massive one that we're, we're trying to accomplish. Because of the, the downstream impact and ripple effects that exists with that as well.

• 1:10:16Rich Roll?

  It's called Loomi, right?

• 1:10:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, Loomi. It's basically an AI venture, like leveraging AI.

• 1:10:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:10:24Rich Roll?

  To promote literacy.

• 1:10:25Speaker 01

  And we, we use the AI to be able to, to personalize to the student.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  So they get what they need specifically. And one of the things that we've been focused on with this is. Also within, uh, K-12 infrastructure. Like there's a lot of fragmentation within it. So it's an opportunity for us to be able to align everything from our districts. To our schools, to our teachers, um, and ultimately to our students. So they are accomplishing their goals. We also, it's been interesting in the process of. In leveraging a tool like that. How do you make sure that students aren't cognitively offloading? So we, we've had to put very strict guardrails in place. Like, we will never write for students is one of the things that.

• 1:11:18Speaker 01

  We've had to make very clear. And be steadfast in that.

• 1:11:23Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that was my big question, like AI is basically the, can be the enemy of literacy. Because of this offloading and so many young people don't know how to write. And it's so easy to basically cheat and copy paste and all that, that kind of thing.

• 1:11:40Speaker 01

  Exactly. And. You know, we, we're seeing this show up at the university level.

• 1:11:49Speaker 01

  You know, one, one of our advisors is at NYU and. She was like, I, I have students coming in, they, they can't write. Um, we're seeing that show up in the UC system in, in California where. The, the baseline coming into the university, they're having to go back to basics. We're seeing this deterioration of sorts. And let's not say there aren't, aren't success stories out there as well, but. For us, we're looking at is, this is a powerful tool. But it's a powerful tool to be able to better understand the skills that students have.

• 1:12:27Speaker 01

  Where they have gaps in that knowledge. And then being able to give them the right coaching and support to allow them to advance. But. Always having the core and center of it as the student has to do the work. Like, I think that is one of the things that, that we know about learning is. There does have to be progressive, um, or productive struggle. It can't just be something that. Hey, I was able to complete the assignment, like completing the assignment is. Is easy to do now. But the process of how you think through executing against it. Becomes much more telling of a student's knowledge.

• 1:13:08Rich Roll?

  On the topic of literacy, I think an underappreciated aspect of your story, uh, is, is the fact that like you were an unreal student. I mean, you were like a 4.5 student in high school, you're doing all the AP courses. You go to college, you're 4.0 across the board, basically. There's a sliding door situation where you would have ended up at a, you know, at an Ivy League school and maybe you're a professor now or something like that, like. And, and the book really. Gives the reader a glimpse of. The, um, kind of deranging impact of being this really bright person.

• 1:13:46Rich Roll?

  Who is, who is being perceived in a certain way because of being black and because of being an athlete. That you weren't being taken seriously or you were dismissed, et cetera. So I'm, I'm curious, like, can you share a little bit about what that was like and how that informed? You know, kind of your activism and, and how you think about how you show up and speak?

• 1:14:08Speaker 01

  So from a, a young age. No, I tested into gifted and talented programs and, and magnet programs.

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  I was a, a great student, um, in relation to being able to get good grades.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  It. It became very apparent that. In being successful on the academic side. Was always a surprise.

• 1:14:40Speaker 01

  And to me, what it revealed was the expectation. For, I would say particularly a black athlete. To have intelligence or to have intellect. Was perceived as an anomaly. It informed how I move forward because.

• 1:15:02Speaker 01

  While it may be in different spaces, like. There are brilliant athletes out there across the board.

• 1:15:10Speaker 01

  That brilliance can show up in different ways. And how I think about that in relation to, to the activism and the work that we're doing is. How do you create the environment where the expression of that intelligence and the opportunity to display that intelligence? Um, and be educated. That we create more of those opportunities. And also continue to raise the bar of the expectations. I want it to be the norm. Where a black athlete walks in the room or a black person walks in a room. And the assumption is. Oh, they're going to be brilliant, like they're going to be well educated, they're going to understand.

• 1:15:54Speaker 01

  And gain to that place, I think there's a, there's a lot of work that needs to be done.

• 1:16:01Speaker 01

  And it's also interesting having to navigate that because. To my understanding, like some of the most educated people across the country are black women. And there's a sense of, like. Surprise around that being, being the fact. And. Again, I want to create a, a space where that becomes the norm. And I think that should be the norm. How you get there becomes interesting because it's. It's not something you have full control over as far as people's perceptions.

• 1:16:37Speaker 01

  You can only expose them to it more and more.

• 1:16:40Rich Roll?

  Expose them and then you can just be this model of that, you know, and speak openly about. Your education and how you think about intellect and intelligence and, and the like and, and be. Somebody that a young person can see and identify and, and imagine their own possibility.

• 1:16:58Speaker 01

  Similar to the sports side, like just make it so undeniable. And so obvious. That then becomes like. Oh, I can't. I can't have a different perspective around it because. It is so obvious.

• 1:17:16Rich Roll?

  When you encounter young people walking on the street here or whatever, what is the, what is the reception of, of the youth? When you meet, when you meet them, you know what I mean? I'm thinking about the reception and the aftermath of, of the Neil and like the eruption of culture around that. But then you have a whole generation of young people who were too young to be influenced by what people thought of that back then. Did they receive you differently? Like, what is that like?

• 1:17:47Speaker 01

  The reception is, at least from my experience thus far, is always love. Like, there, there is an excitement around it. And I think because we have younger generation in Gen Z and Gen Alpha that are much more politically aware. They're much more politically involved.

• 1:18:11Speaker 01

  And I have grown up in a way that they're, they're definitive in the positions of,

• 1:18:20Speaker 01

  whether it's corporations or politicians or friends and family around them, that they want to make sure that they are taking actions to create more equitable environments. And I think that's what I've seen show up from a lot of those interactions. And oftentimes it's different spaces that they're, they're passionate about, but they come into it with like, oh, we, we can create change. Like, I do have power. And they have a sense of, of agency that I think is different than the era that millennials came up in and some of the older generations.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  I think in part because everything is so visible to them as well through social media. And there's, let's say, a lot of pros and cons within that. But I think one of the pros that's done is it's opened up their perspective because they're able to see the world and see things globally in a way that previously just wasn't possible.

• 1:19:26Rich Roll?

  When you think back on 2016, is there anything that you would have done differently? Like with perspective, you've had a decade to kind of process and think about everything that has happened.

• 1:19:41Rich Roll?

  Would you have done it the same way?

• 1:19:44Speaker 01

  I think of two things.

• 1:19:48Speaker 01

  One,

• 1:19:51Speaker 01

  I think about, could I have pushed the bounds further?

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  With the work that we were doing? And I tried to be mindful in the work of,

• 1:20:05Speaker 01

  I wanted people to, to come to the space and be a part of the movement and be a part of the work because they felt passionately about it. I also think about,

• 1:20:18Speaker 01

  should I have tried to push people more aggressively within some of that work? And I don't,

• 1:20:27Speaker 01

  I don't know if that changes the outcome or moves the needle because I do think there's a sense of,

• 1:20:35Speaker 01

  people have to internalize it and they have to believe it for them to actually do it and do it over a period of time and do that in a sustained way.

• 1:20:48Speaker 01

  But I do think like, are there ways that I could have pushed the bounds further? Should I have combated more of the false narratives?

• 1:20:58Speaker 01

  In more visible ways while we were doing a lot of that work behind the scenes and, and doing it on the ground? Should I have done that in much more visible ways?

• 1:21:08Speaker 01

  And part of the concern of doing that and the thought process around it was,

• 1:21:14Speaker 01

  if I do that publicly and if I do that in a, a louder way, does that become the focus of the conversation as opposed to what we're trying to accomplish?

• 1:21:26Speaker 01

  I'm not sure what, what the outcome is and how that changes things. But those are two of the areas that I think about a lot. Just in,

• 1:21:38Speaker 01

  how can we create

• 1:21:41Speaker 01

  more sustained and more significant progress?

• 1:21:45Rich Roll?

  It's a tough one because if you were taking every criticism head on and trying to redress misunderstandings, you're providing oxygen to those arguments and they persist in, you know, kind of the media cycle.

• 1:21:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:00Rich Roll?

  But if you don't, then you're implicitly like,

• 1:22:07Rich Roll?

  not disagreeing with it, you know? You're allowing, you're allowing other people to define your narrative for you, right?

• 1:22:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:13Rich Roll?

  That's the trade off, I guess, on some level.

• 1:22:16Speaker 01

  And it becomes also, there's different ways to be able to communicate it. And we did some of those pathways through, through my direct channels, through direct relationships and things of that nature. The areas that I didn't do or didn't really do as frequent was, hey, I'm gonna, I'm gonna go do a sit down on 60 minutes and address all of these and like have it be done in a broadcast format.

• 1:22:45Rich Roll?

  But not for nothing, you just did do that right now, right?

• 1:22:49Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:22:49Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:22:50Speaker 01

  So we're, we're, we're doing it.

• 1:22:54Rich Roll?

  Now.

• 1:22:54Speaker 01

  But we hadn't done it at that point.

• 1:22:56Rich Roll?

  At the time.

• 1:22:57Speaker 01

  But we are doing it now. That's important context for people to have. But the, at that point in time, we hadn't done it in that way. Again, I,

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  part of the realization of that moment too was media and journalism had changed. Where a lot of it was the business models were changing. Like it was more around, hey, we have to compete for eyeballs now. We have to compete for the, the clicks and the likes and the visibility. So we also saw a lot of it turn more to, hey, we need the, we need the sexy headline to get people to come to us and less around, what are the facts around this and what are you trying to address?

• 1:23:51Speaker 01

  And saw journalism in many ways, like that started changing. And there, there's still some people that do phenomenal journalism work. And I don't want to discount or discredit that. But larger media ecosystem or ecosystem became much more like, hey, we need the attention, we need the visibility. Less around, hey, let's do the true journalism work of what's happening and giving people the facts around the around the moment.

• 1:24:22Rich Roll?

  How do you think Malcolm X would have handled the algorithmically driven media landscape of 2026?

• 1:24:31Speaker 01

  Oh man, that is a great question. I think he would have explored like all possibilities there. I

• 1:24:42Speaker 01

  probably would have, would have looked at streaming, probably would have looked at like,

• 1:24:47Rich Roll?

  Malcolm X, the streamer.

• 1:24:48Speaker 01

  Right, like, but I'm thinking of it.

• 1:24:52Rich Roll?

  Him and Speed.

• 1:24:53Speaker 01

  Right? It's a really good question because I did have a moment of thinking about this.

• 1:25:01Rich Roll?

  Did you?

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  Just of like, at that point in time, how he was communicating and getting message out more broadly. Like he was doing significant work there. Thinking about what that looks like in 2026, like,

• 1:25:17Rich Roll?

  It's hard to imagine.

• 1:25:18Speaker 01

  It is. But I, I think some, there's an element of streaming in there, like there's,

• 1:25:26Speaker 01

  you know, like the Substacks of the world where it's like you have your personal channels and messaging. There's the social media aspect. You have the TV and broadcast side, like, I think he would have explored all of the ways that he could have effectively communicated the message more broadly.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  But is, if it feels strange to put that in like perspective now.

• 1:25:55Rich Roll?

  But here you are, you're kind of re-entering the, the town square in, in this more sophisticated media ecosystem. Back to the idea of quaintness, like 2016 information landscape quaint compared to today. There are, you know, coordination disinformation campaigns, some of which are, are being funded and propagated in foreign nations. Like, it's just insane, right? I mean, you are like, if there was ever clickbait, you're clickbait. Like, you know, you are going to be the reason for everybody to like, you know, write something. And you are going into this clear eye, you know this. How does that feel?

• 1:26:38Rich Roll?

  And like, what is the, like, what is the message to the kind of daily wire and of that ecosystem where you're seeing, you know, Matt Walsh and Ben Shapiro? There's a coordinated like, okay, Colin's coming back. Let's get our podcast together, like, and we're all gonna like, you know, do podcasts at the same time with our, our like perspective on like who he is and what he means and how we should think about this guy.

• 1:27:05Speaker 01

  It's something that I'm prepared for that, like to come. Already at this point.

• 1:27:11Rich Roll?

  You're like war torn, yeah, like you've been through it already.

• 1:27:14Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:15Rich Roll?

  But still, I mean, it can't be fun, that, that side of it.

• 1:27:20Speaker 01

  No, that side of it is not fun, but if you're going to affect change, there is going to be resistance to it and like, you know, that side is going to, to come.

• 1:27:33Rich Roll?

  If you're not getting that, you're not actually pushing change.

• 1:27:38Speaker 01

  And I go back and forth on that because.

• 1:27:43Speaker 01

  I don't like using that as a metric. Because if the if the metric becomes the goal of like, oh, if they're responding to us and attacking us like, that's how you know you're doing something right? That can lead us to like, extreme places that are just off the mark of what we should be trying to accomplish. I think we need to keep the the goal, the main focus. And have an awareness that, yeah, this this likely will come. But I don't think that should be a measure of the success. Already at this point, like, I see the bots ramping up.

• 1:28:26Speaker 01

  They're showing up more and more on my pages now.

• 1:28:31Rich Roll?

  Do you pay attention to that stuff? Are you kind of scrolling through it and taking notice?

• 1:28:36Speaker 01

  I would check to have a pulse of like, where are things actually at? And have a sense there. Because I I don't want to be caught off guard. I I need to, I need to have an understanding what was happening within the social realm. I need to have an understanding what's happening, you know, politically. I need to have an understanding just on the ground, like how people are responding. And I think that allows you to to get a better sense of like, how you calibrate. That side of it isn't fun, but you know, you're gonna have to to navigate it and address it.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  But ultimately, at this point, I think majority of people see through it. Like, while I have the the experiences in the having to go through it. Also, as a society, people have had to go through it as well. And I think there's a a lot more informed community collectively now where it's like, we kind of know how people are going to frame imposition things. We we know where where disingenuous arguments are going to come from and where manipulation will come from. We have a pretty good sense of that.

• 1:30:05Rich Roll?

  When you're trying to realize change, there's a tension. I'm curious around this tension that you must feel between taking an ardent, principled, uncompromising stance on something? And the consensus building and kind of recruitment? That's required in order to actually create the change? Like, you've got to be able to have people on board with you. And those two things, they can work in tandem, but they're also, you know, antagonistic at times, right? Like, they they work against each other. Like, do you want to be the compromising guy who's like getting everybody on board and reaching across the aisle?

• 1:30:46Rich Roll?

  Or are you the guy who's just the symbol who's like, this is the line?

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  I think it has to be a both and, which is like a is a fine line to walk. The the context that I think about is no, MLK, who is universally beloved today. At that point in time, it was like 33% of black people that supported him. Giving historical context is also important that in the moment, people may resist it because it's different. Because it makes them uncomfortable. And that may be for a number of reasons.

• 1:31:33Speaker 01

  It may be you're challenging some of the ideas that they hold. And in challenging those ideas, that can feel like a personal attack. But it's more so like, how do we push forward collectively? I think about that in in the moment today of when people do have a discomfort. Gain them and giving them some insight as to why that may be the case. And also giving them the insight into this isn't a personal attack on you. This is a this is us trying to address an idea

• 1:32:14Speaker 01

  that's creating a negative outcome for society. And then putting in that framework and perspective then becomes like, okay, if this isn't a personal attack, like, let me actually think about the thing now. Part of what's given me that perspective is over the last 10 years, I've had a surprising amount of people. And I would say candidly, I did not think this would be the case. Surprising amount of people that have come up and they're like, I hated you. Like, I really didn't like you. And

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  I've seen what you've done over the years and I've had conversations. And you were right. And seeing seeing people go through that process in transformation, come out the other side of it. And again, there's a good portion of these people in like the southern states that, again, I candidly, it was like, there's probably no shot that they're gonna change their mind on me or like what we're trying to accomplish.

• 1:33:29Rich Roll?

  Time? You know, there is this notion like, you know, 50 years from now, like, everyone's gonna look at what you did very differently than they did, you know, the week after you did it.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  There is an element of time, but the the other part, again, I think it's being able to get people to separate the the idea of what we're trying to accomplish from their personal identity. And I think because our our beliefs become so personal to us. And when someone challenges a belief that we have, then it becomes, oh, you're you're attacking me personally. And the attack isn't personal. The attack is on the the system, on the environment, on the processes that we've created that are driving to outcomes that that aren't beneficial to anybody. And

• 1:34:24Speaker 01

  what I've seen is as people step back from that, like, that creates the window of opportunity where it's like, well, let me, let me interrogate this further. And also, let me interrogate why I thought that thing. And sometimes that's broadening their perspective. Sometimes it's getting them to think about it from someone else's point of view. But ultimately, what I've seen is there is a significant portion of people that are willing to take that that process and that perspective to be able to get to a space of, hey, is this actually the thing?

• 1:35:09Speaker 01

  Is the thing that I originally believe? The the thing that is actually best for us?

• 1:35:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I mean, that must be a good feeling, though. When you have those encounters.

• 1:35:21Speaker 01

  It's amazing. I would say there there is an element of like, I wish it would happen faster because the there's very real impact on people's lives. Like, the difference of people moving now and taking action now can be the difference of whether or not we save a lot of people's lives. So there is like a balance of we need people to understand this right now and move right now. And also

• 1:36:04Speaker 01

  knowing that that's not how human beliefs actually change. Like, you're not just gonna tell someone something once and be like, you know what? I changed, I got it. I'm a whole new person now. So it's a having that balance of like, trying to get people to move quickly, but having a level of grace and empathy of them grappling with their own like beliefs in that. It's a it's a delicate process, but we have to continue to push the bounds on what's possible there.

• 1:36:44Rich Roll?

  I'm gonna have to let you go in a minute because I know you got to be somewhere else. But I'm not letting you go until you answer the question. Are you still training every day? Is this true? What does that look like? And is there still an aspiration or a possibility that you could return to the NFL as a quarterback?

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I I still train every day. Get up at 4:30 in the morning, I do my training, then I get to be.

• 1:37:16Rich Roll?

  What is the training?

• 1:37:17Speaker 01

  So I still do all my, you know, my skill training, my lifting, my plyometrics. So I still train the way that I did while I was playing. And part of that has just become like a discipline and practice. Part of it is also becomes another form of like meditation for me in there as well. I'll say I'm I'm not as good at like the sitting still meditation. I'm like, I feel like I have to be going. We got, we gotta make moves. So that becomes a space where I'm

• 1:38:01Speaker 01

  I have a singular focus. Having headphones in and not having to to navigate some of the outside noise like that becomes the area where I'm able to be just very in tune with myself. But yeah, I still love playing football. I there's a passion that I have. I want to step back on a field. I want to lead lead a team to a championship. I I hope that door opens. And I know I have to to control the things that I can control in that process to try to bring that about.

• 1:38:45Rich Roll?

  Last year, 63 quarterbacks in the in the NFL, half of which ended up on the weekly injury report. A lot of injuries there, which means a lot of opportunity for a guy like you. When I reflect back, it's like insane that there it wasn't a team that like gave you a shot. I know there's there's been these flirtations, et cetera. But like, come on, people. What are you waiting for? So what is the message to the NFL, to the various GMs? What's the what's the pitch? Like, what do you? What's your final kind of like edict to that institution?

• 1:39:24Speaker 01

  Be true to who you say you are. The the NFL coaches, GMs all say the NFL is a meritocracy. And the best players will play. They want the best talent on the field. Be true to that.

• 1:39:45Rich Roll?

  I think it's a good place to end it, man. Thank you.

• 1:39:49Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:39:49Rich Roll?

  I really appreciate it. Everybody pick up the book on sale September 15th. Yes, available everywhere. If people want to get involved and learn more about all of your initiatives, where is the best place to send them?

• 1:40:03Speaker 01

  They can go to Kaepernick7.com. And on the foundation side, knowyourrightscamp.com. And lumistory.ai.

• 1:40:13Rich Roll?

  Awesome. Much love, man.

• 1:40:15Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 1:40:16Rich Roll?

  Excited for this chapter of your life, man.

• 1:40:19Speaker 01

  I'm excited for it as well.

• 1:40:21Rich Roll?

  Right on, man. All right, peace.

• 1:40:23Speaker 01

  Peace.

• 1:40:23Rich Roll?

  Thanks, dude.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  Thank you.