If I Can, I Will: William Goodge On Running 50 Marathons In 50 States In 24 Days

William Goodge is a British ultra-endurance athlete who just FKT'd his Australia crossing. In October, he runs 50 marathons in 50 states in 24 days. We get into the logistics, the strange polarity of a life spent between five-star hotels and the side of a trail, and what it's like to be doubted in public. Will is the most aura-farming, Goodge-coded ultra mog I could possibly imagine. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: TORRAS: Get 15% off the TORRAS Q3 Air Pro case with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://torraslife.com/products/iphone-17-pro-max-case-ostand-q3-air-pro WHOOP: Join now and get one month free👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Airbnb: Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much👉🏼https://www.airbnb.com/host Momentous: Get up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll Noble Mobile: Try Noble for just $10 with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.noblemobile.com Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 0:40Rich Roll?

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• 1:21Rich Roll?

  of the Taurus Q3 Air Pro when you enter the code RICHROLL at torraslife.com. You're gonna do 50 marathons in 50 states in 24 days.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah.

• 1:34Rich Roll?

  This is a whole new level of insanity.

• 1:37Speaker 01

  This is Mission America. William Goode.

• 1:39Rich Roll?

  William Goode.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  William Goode.

• 1:41Rich Roll?

  Ran across the entire United States.

• 1:43Speaker 01

  Fastest British person ever. He's an absolute beast when it comes to ultra running. On paper, this should be the most difficult thing I've ever done. The level of intricacy and detail on this is unlike anything I've ever done before. So it has to flow exactly right.

• 1:58Rich Roll?

  How do you think about that and prepare yourself?

• 2:01Speaker 01

  I think a lot of us move through life with fear and a lot of the time, fear stops us from chasing our dreams or chasing our goals. So I have the most simple phrase, can I take another step? The answer is always yes.

• 2:16Rich Roll?

  Well, it's good to have you back here, man. For round two, I'm one of your biggest fans. You keep raising the bar on your challenges, challenging yourself. And the latest iteration of this is very difficult to get my head around. Many people have run, I don't know how many, but more than a few have run 50 marathons in 50 states in 50 days. We all know Dean Karnazes is probably the most celebrated person who's done it. And he wrote a book about it. I know that book was very influential on you. Do we know how many people have done that?

• 2:49Speaker 01

  I have no idea, no.

• 2:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I would imagine there's a handful at least, right?

• 2:54Speaker 01

  Yeah. And they'd have probably done it over like a period of years as well. Cause there is one record for a lady that's done the fastest average time in all 50 states, which I assume would be at actual races.

• 3:05Rich Roll?

  Hmm. Yeah. Right. But with no time limit on, or like doing it in a calendar year or something like that, right? But what you're about to embark upon on October 3rd is at a whole other level. You're gonna do 50 marathons in 50 states and you're gonna do it in 24 days.

• 3:23Speaker 01

  Correct, yeah. The only thing is I'm starting October 9th, but.

• 3:27Rich Roll?

  Oh, October 9th, sorry.

• 3:29Speaker 01

  Everything else is gold.

• 3:31Rich Roll?

  October 9th. It's difficult for me to even get my head around this. Not only are you kind of having, you know, cutting in half the amount of days that Dean did it, it's like then one more day. Like you could have said it for 25 and said, I'm gonna cut it in half and you went to 24. I'm curious around that. This is bananas. On most days, you're gonna be running two marathons in two different states, but on four occasions, October 17th, October 19th, October 25th, and October 30th, you're gonna be running three marathons in separate states in a 24-hour period.

• 4:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:14Rich Roll?

  How is this possible?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Well, it is possible because originally I was gonna try and do it in 20 days. That was the most extreme version of this. But in working with Goodwin, my premier partner, they've figured out sort of the best way around the country of doing it. But also there has to be some kind of time allocation for if anything goes wrong. Cause we're, we're driving a lot, we're taking commercial flights and we're taking private flights as well. So if anything goes wrong, like a car breaks down or a flight is delayed, that knock-on effect, domino effect could ruin the entire thing. So making it 24 days has allowed.

• 4:51Rich Roll?

  A buffer. So you have, it's basically a four-day buffer, knowing that if everything goes to plan, that you possibly could do this in 20 days.

• 5:01Speaker 01

  Exactly, yeah. But, cause we're, we're tied to finishing at the New York City Marathon, which is obviously an epic event to finish at. 60,000 other people running, it's not just me in New York. Hopefully some people would turn up, but it's like a really cool celebration. I did something similar in the UK when I finished doing 48 marathons in 30 days at the London Marathon.

• 5:21Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 5:21Speaker 01

  So it adds a level to it. But yeah, the, the pressure's on from the very beginning. Like each marathon has to be less than five hours, otherwise we're in trouble. So those days of three will be, will be interesting, but I've run those distances before and it adds to the madness of it. Cause running across country like point to point, I've done that quite a few times now. And this is, this is gonna be, it's gonna be crazy, but in all of the right ways.

• 5:47Rich Roll?

  This is a whole new level of insanity.

• 5:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 5:50Rich Roll?

  But it's also the most kind of aura farming, Goodge-coded ultra mog that I could possibly imagine for you. Like it's kind of perfect. You're the only person who can do this. And you're doing it once again with your own kind of like bespoke, unique Goodge flair. Because your primary partner is basically a, like a digital logistics company for private aviation, right? So this is providing you with access to PJs to supplement the travel. There's this elaborate map where it shows where you're gonna be on every single day that you shared with me. Essentially, it's some combination of commercial aviation,

• 6:33Rich Roll?

  private aviation, and driving in a van. And that mix is gonna basically allow you to be in all of these places. And just the elaborate nature of the logistics here, like the, it's like a military operation essentially in order to pull this off.

• 6:51Speaker 01

  It's completely insane. And Robbie, friend of yours, a very close friend of mine, Robbie Ballinger, and Jason, the guy that helped me across Australia as well, former Marine, they were looking at the plans when we were in Colorado recently and they were just, they were mind blown. Cause the level of intricacy and detail on this has to, has to flow exactly right. Traveling so much, making sure we're on time, et cetera. So yeah, the level of detail and the people behind the scenes working on this is unlike anything I've ever done before. People think when you run across a country, it's like the planning must be crazy. I'm like, dude, I go on Google Maps and have Perth going to Sydney in the walking route.

• 7:27Rich Roll?

  You just have to make sure the RV, you know.

• 7:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 7:30Rich Roll?

  As a GPS or what, you don't even, it's like you're, you're going straight for like, you know, a thousand miles.

• 7:35Speaker 01

  Yeah. And there's no like, there's no exacting pressure other than the, like the limits of what I've said I'm gonna do it in. So I'm gonna run 60 miles, 70 miles in the day. This is all exact, exact move on. Next place, next time, next start.

• 7:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's sort of like a special forces operation. How many people contributed to kind of nailing down these logistical plans?

• 7:59Speaker 01

  Well, to be honest, there's probably around 50 people involved in total across all like partners. Cause we're doing it with GoFundMe, getting behind it, stand up to cancer. It's gonna be a fully functioning website that's gonna be insane and quite gamified as well, which is really cool. And then the team at Goodwin, I think there's, I think there's 50 employees and a lot of them are working on this one way or another. And then my own crew, PR.

• 8:22Rich Roll?

  You have your core, your core guys that you've taken on all of these journeys.

• 8:27Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's the best team I've put together. I'm really excited about it.

• 8:31Rich Roll?

  Robbie's not gonna do the whole thing though, right?

• 8:33Speaker 01

  He's gonna do the first half and then him and Jason are gonna overlap, I think in Chicago. They'll do a couple of days together and then Jason will carry on for the rest. But I've got one of my closest friends, Peter John, former military guy as well.

• 8:46Rich Roll?

  Right. He's the guy with the longest hair, right?

• 8:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. Paratrooper, rock and roller, loves going to Berlin, parties, has his, has his own like luxury brand. He is, he's one of the funniest blokes I've ever met. Complains about everything, but there's, there's a few people that can complain about everything and be really funny at the same time. And he's definitely one of those characters. So. Like having military people around someone like this is obviously perfect because they're that way hardwired. And then Robbie having

• 9:14Rich Roll?

  And they're not going to freak out when, you know, there's a thunderstorm or something unforeseen happens because you've done enough of these to know, like, they don't go to plan. Like, stuff's going to happen. So you're wise to build in those extra four days.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 9:28Rich Roll?

  Especially when you're relying on commercial aviation.

• 9:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 9:31Rich Roll?

  Because you have no control over how that goes down.

• 9:34Speaker 01

  That's the testing one. And also like widening it out is meant we can go to like great cities within those states rather than kind of doing it in the middle of nowhere. Because a big part of this is going to be opening up to anyone that wants to join for the first three miles. We're going to be doing like a three mile loop in every single state. So anyone can come down, be part of it. And then me and the crew will take off and do the rest.

• 9:56Rich Roll?

  The map that you shared with me showed all the, there's like dots on all the, you know, state locations, but it wasn't specific about where. And I was curious, like, are you just going to be, you know, coming in on a PJ and doing it around a landing strip and then taking off again? Or that's interesting, like trying to make sure that you're in some kind of urban center where it's accessible for people who want to drop in and join.

• 10:18Speaker 01

  There are, there are some that will be close to airstrips, but we'll do it outside. But like California, we're doing it in LA. We'll be doing it along Santa Monica Beach. Miami, we'll be doing Miami Beach. We're in Dallas for Texas.

• 10:31Speaker 01

  South Dakota, we're going to go past the president's, the president heads, what are they called again?

• 10:36Rich Roll?

  Oh, yeah, Mount Rushmore.

• 10:38Speaker 01

  Mount Rushmore. So we're taking in some epic locations. Obviously, the big one in Hawaii to start will be great as well. We're in Honolulu.

• 10:45Rich Roll?

  Are you going to run the Honolulu Marathon course?

• 10:48Speaker 01

  I don't know exactly yet. The course, the, the routes are being finalized. We've got them all through, but some of them need some editing. But like I said, they're going to be in major cities or interesting places in each state.

• 11:00Rich Roll?

  You have, from looking at the, at the map, it looks like there's at least five commercial flights, five or six, three private jet flights, forty nine transfers, all other transitions are some mix of driving and flying. There's an interesting kind of doubling back at one point, like you're in Ohio and then you're getting on a plane and flying to Arizona. Like, the whole thing is you're starting in, you're starting in Hawaii and you're moving east, right, to end in New York City. But at some point, the logistical wisdom was, we need to do this in order to make all of this work. Like, it really is like this Jenga jigsaw puzzle sort of deal.

• 11:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's insane. The more you look at it, almost the more confusing it is, but the more it works out. It's, it's impressive what they've put together. Sometimes we have to be in certain places, like there's the biggest conference for private aviation in the US is in Vegas for the date. We have to be there. So we're going to like run through the convention center, get people going crazy about that.

• 11:59Rich Roll?

  This is like prime for, this is like, you know, prime YouTube content. I assume you have a full film crew, like documenting this whole thing.

• 12:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, we'll have, we'll have a team there as usual.

• 12:09Rich Roll?

  This is a, a high budget affair.

• 12:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it must be.

• 12:13Rich Roll?

  So you have Goodwin as your partner. Like, who's paying for all of this?

• 12:16Speaker 01

  Goodwin are getting behind it, yeah.

• 12:18Rich Roll?

  Do you have, I assume you have a bunch of other sponsors.

• 12:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm, I'm with Whoop again. Well, I've been with Whoop for, I've worn one of these since pre-COVID, so I've always worn them. He Mantra and Electrolyte Company, we're going to do a collab product together with my own company, Riskier, which will be cool.

• 12:33Rich Roll?

  That's your sunglasses.

• 12:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And then we're bringing out a full range of kit for the, for the event itself. I've got like tortoise, you think of Metallica going on tour. We're going to have like quite rock and roll t-shirts with every single state.

• 12:45Rich Roll?

  Like the merch stand in each state.

• 12:47Speaker 01

  Exactly. But we're also from those specific tees as well, we're going to do like a $10 donation from each sale to go to the, go to Stand Up To Cancer as well. So there'll be some, some give back there as well. But yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be mega.

• 13:02Rich Roll?

  Once again, the motivation behind this is very much rooted in your relationship with your mom who passed away from cancer. And how has that kind of philanthropic aspect of what you do changed or, or kind of matured over the course of the many ultra conquests that you've been involved in?

• 13:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, at the, at the beginning, it was what got me into it. Because the Christmas after she passed away, I was in all sorts of mess, obviously. And I decided to get out of Christmas by running a marathon. And I raised money for Macmillan Cancer Support, who she had raised money for before, helped me and my family through what they'd been through. So I went out on that marathon and raised like 20,000 pounds. And I had this light bulb moment of like, okay, I've just, I've just ran, which is something that's really helping me personally, like deal with the loss. But then at the end of it, there's this funding for an amazing charity, helping people. And then immediately I was like, what can I do next? Which then led to eight months later, running the length of the UK, John

• 14:05Speaker 01

  O'Groats to Land's End. And for me, it's matured in the sense that I started running because I needed to. I had all this pent up aggression, anger, sadness. I was 23 at the time, so you mature enough to be able to make your own decisions. But I think as men, especially, we're, we're not quite there on a level of maturity yet. So there was two very clear paths, one of absolute self destruction, which I could have definitely done, been given like a free pass at, or the other one was to, to use it to celebrate her and the woman she was and how she raised me to be a man. So we've always raised money on the things we've done. Because then it's less like a, an egotistical adventure of like, oh, look

• 14:47Speaker 01

  how, look how great I am that I can run thousands of miles. And it looks cool. Like, the outcome is outside of myself. And it can, it can really help thousands, hundreds, thousands of people with the, with the funding we, we make. So it makes it a beautiful end that's never quite going to be an end. Because I feel like I'll always be, be doing something in that realm.

• 15:09Rich Roll?

  But this is the first time that you're working with Stand Up

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Stand Up To Cancer, yeah.

• 15:14Rich Roll?

  I mean, they're kind of like the premier leading organization.

• 15:17Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. So it's, it's, it's not just support, it's also research, trying to bridge the world of this disease that affects one in two of us personally, if we're going to get it, or that means that everyone's affected by it one way or another. Like, everyone knows someone that's had cancer, got cancer, living through it. So anything I can do to give back in, in that world is a, is a privilege. And yeah, it's quite, it's quite humbling to be able to do that as well. It's the, it's the best thing that's come out of anything I've done. Personally, I've been able to deal with that loss and make it more of like a celebration now, where at the start, it was, I was basically trying to beat myself up. I was, I was looking for a way of self harm that wasn't too, wasn't too scary to

• 16:01Speaker 01

  like people around me. But now

• 16:03Rich Roll?

  That feels more like, sorry to step on your words. But just, I want to kind of like double click on that a little bit. Like, it's one thing to grieve and be sad. But my sense is that there was a sense of anger or like confusion. There's something more going on there. Like, that this, a lot of people, you know, suffer the loss of a parent at some point. But for whatever reason, like, this seems like it landed extra hard on you. And I want to understand that a little bit better.

• 16:33Speaker 01

  Yeah. So outside of just losing your mom in any context, which is terrible, timing was bad. But also in our family, she was the least deserving. She hardly ever drank, never smoked. She was a nurse. She was active. She ate well. So for her to get it, and people understand how I live, and my dad loves going for pints and stuff, not saying that anyone else should have got it. But it was like, it was a real sucker punch, that she was the one that got it, had to deal with it three times, and then eventually passed from it. So, yeah, I had a lot of pent up anger. Why? Why her?

• 17:09Speaker 01

  We all say as like a family, if we could have taken it, we would have taken it ourselves, like my dad, my brother and me. So, yeah, it led to, it led to me needing an outlet to get rid of that rage. But because I loved her so much, and she was an amazing woman, I, I couldn't let it be destructive. Because then I'd have been using her as an excuse for destroying my own life, which was unacceptable.

• 17:31Rich Roll?

  Not exactly a great legacy for her.

• 17:34Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 17:34Rich Roll?

  It's not fair to her legacy. Yeah. Did your brother take it as hard as you did?

• 17:40Speaker 01

  Yeah, we did it in different ways. We're men, so we didn't really talk about it too much. We've got, we've, as the journey's gone long, we have

• 17:46Rich Roll?

  British men.

• 17:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, British men, for sure. But he's been involved in a lot of the things I've done. He understands it. He's grouped in his own way. But we've all found some level of peace or acceptance. You can't change the things that have happened. You can only change how you move forward with it. So.

• 18:05Rich Roll?

  And do you still, every year on, on her birthday, run the number of miles that she would be, how she survives?

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I sometimes do kilometers, sometimes do miles. But yeah, last week I did 62 miles for her birthday, which is outside of it just being like good for what I've got training wise. It's like a moment for me where, the reason I love running is because it's an escape from being by a phone or having something to do. You're just free in your own world. So for those 62 miles or whatever, it took me 10 hours, I can just reflect, be with her, be out in nature, which she loved gardening and being out and about. So I get to have that, I get to have that like journey with her. So yeah, it's a, it's a beautiful thing I do and a recognition. And we raised money again for Stand Up To Cancer just through that. So it's like a little present that I'd give to her.

• 18:56Rich Roll?

  So people can contribute to this on the GoFundMe or directly to Stand Up To Cancer? How does it, how does it work if people want to get involved and contribute?

• 19:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, there's going to be a full website and a big donation thing going directly to Stand Up To Cancer through GoFundMe. But a really interesting thing we're doing, and I noted a little bit earlier about like gamifying it. On the website, we're going to have leaderboards for like the top states that have donated, the top individuals. And then there's also challenges that people can do. It's going to be running every day for 24 days or running 50 miles in 24 days, which I think is going to link to Strava. So you can sign up to that. There'll be a leaderboard for people's miles. But also people can fundraise as part of what I'm doing as well. So people might have their own stories, which we'll celebrate

• 19:46Speaker 01

  along the way. So all of that will funnel towards this, this big pot that I'm doing. But everyone involved will, will be seen. And there's an example, like, we're going to do these tortoise, but we're doing a specific one for Stand Up To Cancer. Where if you donate a hundred dollars, you'll get a free t-shirt. And then there's higher tiers to, to what you get. But yeah, we're trying, for me, this is like, this is a huge opportunity to raise a lot of money. Like, the, the amount of people that are involved, having press, local press around the place, I really feel like I can make a big impact and we can raise a huge amount of money for Stand Up To Cancer. So, yeah, it's, it's a privilege. It's also a pressure, not just doing, doing the thing, which is obviously quite hard already, but

• 20:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're, you're a steward of this movement and there's a responsibility to make it successful.

• 20:39Rich Roll?

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• 23:26Rich Roll?

  crew and at some point in the aftermath, putting together some kind of like beautiful two hour whatever, there's the kind of immediacy of social media and trying to tell the story as it's happening, you know? And I think you're riding a really interesting wave that we're seeing right now in the ultra-running world. Like, there's so many interesting characters and just outlandish performances that we are bearing witness to, even in just the last, like, you know, 12 months.

• 23:57Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:58Rich Roll?

  The whole world is now paying attention to this, you know, very tiny subculture of athletes in a way that didn't exist like the last time we sat down together.

• 24:07Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:08Rich Roll?

  You know, like, you can run across Australia, and it's a big to-do, like, when you, you know, arrive in Bondi, just like it was for Ned Brockman or whatever. But not that many people were kind of following, like, if you weren't kind of already coded for, like, that world, you weren't really watching it as it was unfolding. There's like, kind of a big press thing and then it goes away. But now, because of like Max Joliffe and Rachel Enchirkin and like some other characters that are emerging on the scene, Mark Dowdell, like this whole backyard thing, like, which brought in all of the gym bros and the hybrid athletes. So like, a whole other sector of like, individuals and athletes and fitness freaks are like, paying attention to ultra-running?

• 24:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 24:49Rich Roll?

  In a really cool way. And so, there is this kind of opportunity that's for you right now with how you're going to tell this story, that really, I think, could capture the hearts and minds and the imagination of like, the entire world. Because it's so outrageous, but it's also flash, you know? You got the planes and you got, like, you have said, the last time you were here, I think I asked you, like, how do you break it down, the difficulty of these things between like, mental and physical? And you said, it's 100% physical and it's 100% mental. But this is 100% physical, 100% mental, and 100% logistical.

• 25:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 25:26Rich Roll?

  And 100% like, being committed to the telling the story at the same time.

• 25:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, like I said, it's the pressure, but I understand the position I'm in, which is why I want to throw the kitchen sink, as it were, and try and get the message out there as much as possible and raise as much money. It's not just a point-to-point thing. It is, as you say, it's, it's pretty Hollywood, what we're doing.

• 25:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:50Speaker 01

  And, yeah, it's been the perfect melting pot. I've obviously been doing this since I was, what, 23? So it's been nine years. And back then, I'd, before I did it, I didn't know what ultra-running was. And now it's become this, this thing that most people now understand, and people are doing incredible and crazy things. Ironically, Mark came out when I was running across Australia, uh, America.

• 26:11Rich Roll?

  Mark Dowdell did?

• 26:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:13Rich Roll?

  Oh, I didn't know that.

• 26:14Speaker 01

  He was one of the only, one of the, well, there was a few people that came towards the end, but he was one of the early guys that came out.

• 26:18Rich Roll?

  Uh-huh.

• 26:19Speaker 01

  And then witnessing his journey and him just running nearly 400 miles in four days, or whatever it was, is, is insane.

• 26:26Rich Roll?

  And he doesn't, like you, like, he's very different from you, but he doesn't fit the mold of like, what you think an ultra runner looks like. You know what I mean? He like, looks like a linebacker.

• 26:36Speaker 01

  Well, he used to play American football, didn't he?

• 26:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's, it's interesting, but it also shows that, how things, everything evolves, right? See, even, even you can talk about high rocks, how they used to be like the CrossFit guys, and now like, professional runners are going in and beating all the time. So it shows that even, even though ultra-running has been around for quite a while, it's now evolving and changing and different people are doing it, which is beautiful. And it shows that anyone can do anything. Back in the day, a marathon was like, the peak of human endurance. If you knew what an Ironman was, you'd understand how much bigger that was.

• 27:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  But now it's like, regular, regular people.

• 27:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 27:16Speaker 01

  I consider myself a regular person, um, doing these amazing things, so.

• 27:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you have Harvey Lewis, full-time high school teacher, you know, who's just, you know, at, what is he, 49 now or something like that? Still like, you know, he's the mentor to the next generation, but he still kicks their ass most of the time. And he does it with a smile on his face. And then you have like, Mark Dowdell coming up, you know, under his, you know, kind of example, and, and acquitting himself with such maturity and poise. He's almost like a personal development guru. Like, the way he shows up on social media, he's very empowering. And like, these are the, the, this is the new class of athlete, like, where I can like, celebrate social media because he's propagating such a positive

• 28:02Rich Roll?

  message. And Rachel Enchirkin, the same, like, you know, her wanting to do it from a place of joy and like, like herself when she's crossing the finish line. Like, these are like, really powerful, important messages that transcend just how insane the athletic performance aspect of it is.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's becoming, it's becoming more, more, it's being viewed by everyone now. And it's good to have these different characters in, uh, elevating the sport.

• 28:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah. I, I mentioned this before, so I won't belabor it, um, on the podcast for people who have heard it, but I was at TrailCon recently, and, you know, there's like, a week of panels and like, events leading up to Western States up in Tahoe. And a big kind of recurring topic of conversation is like, what is the culture of trail running now? Because you have the OGs who are used to it being a certain way, a very kind of grounded, granola, low-key, you know, no, no flash kind of experience. And their attachment to that, uh, as, you know, this sport has emerged. And like a TrailCon, there's just

• 29:12Rich Roll?

  like, it's a, it's a commercial operation. Like, every brand is there with booze and all kinds of stuff going on. And it's just changed a lot. But it's the people that define the culture, right? You can't, you can't dictate what the culture is.

• 29:26Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 29:27Rich Roll?

  You have to allow it to be what it wants to be based upon the people who are like inhabiting it, right? And it's a different sort of archetype of individual now that is either ultra curious or kicking ass at the highest level in this sport. And it's not one thing. You've got the backyard ultras. We have what the kind of things that you do. You've got the, you know, Helicita Bayes and you've got like the, you know, the, the, the kind of gold standard races like Badwater and Moab and et cetera. Like there's such a diversity of like experiences and offerings.

• 30:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it keeps it interesting that way as well. And that's why you can have different athletes from different backgrounds being good at, at different things. I like the balance. I like that the old stead is still there that want it that way. And I think as an athlete or speaking to ultra running truly, you shouldn't always be doing something and it being filmed and doing all this other stuff, like the experience is the most beautiful thing. Obviously a lot of the things I do are filmed, but the moments where I get most back from it are when I'm in the middle of nowhere on my own, seven miles away from my crew. And I, I see something magical or have a memory of my mom from the past. So you still go through those experiences. And yes, if you're raising money or now it becomes a profession for people and money,

• 30:45Speaker 01

  like you have to obviously offer viewership to people if they want it. But I think there always needs to be like a bit of both.

• 30:52Rich Roll?

  But if you're not connected to that kind of spiritual experience of doing this, you're not going to last.

• 30:58Speaker 01

  No, you'll be in trouble.

• 30:59Rich Roll?

  Like have somebody follow you around with a camera. Like you're, you're not going to make it. It's too hard.

• 31:03Speaker 01

  It is, it is too hard. You need it. You need a reason beyond yourself to really be doing it. I think if it was completely like ego driven, unless you are one of the sickest athletes out there and like, I'm going to be the best. But as, as our conversations have led and having read your book and Dean's book, it was so interesting to me at this beginning, which is why I attach myself to it so extremely, how a lot of people that get into ultra have been through some kind of trauma in their life. And it's, it's a vehicle for dealing with it because obviously that trauma never truly goes away, but you can kind of ride, ride the world a little easier. So yeah, it's, um, it's an interesting sport that's continuously to change. And I also think that all these records that are being sent now, like the younger generation are getting into it now.

• 31:48Speaker 01

  So give it 10, 15 years, whatever any of us have done.

• 31:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 31:51Speaker 01

  It's going to be like smoked out.

• 31:53Rich Roll?

  I know. I think we're just at the beginning.

• 31:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:55Rich Roll?

  It's super interesting, but when you look at Max Jolas splits at Badwater, I can't even get my head around it. Like he's literally running like seven, 38 minute miles for like most of that race and he never walked once.

• 32:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's a great, he's a great guy. He's a friend of mine as well, and I've spoke to him since.

• 32:14Rich Roll?

  Coolest.

• 32:15Speaker 01

  He, and he's cool, he's cool as fuck, right?

• 32:16Rich Roll?

  He might be the only guy who can out mog you.

• 32:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, no, I agree with that. Tattoos are crazy.

• 32:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 32:22Speaker 01

  Surf, skater, surfer dude.

• 32:24Rich Roll?

  Looks like Chris Cornell. Yeah. I mean, you know, he's, you know, strikingly handsome and, uh, and the way that he creates these documentary pieces are like, they're really beautiful. Like they're, you know, they're executed at such a, a high production level and, and keen sense of storytelling.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  Yeah. And he has a lot to do with that as well in our conversations.

• 32:43Rich Roll?

  Cause he comes from a design background. Like he cares about the aesthetics of what he's doing.

• 32:48Speaker 01

  Yeah. He's a, yeah, he's a gangster and he's proven it.

• 32:51Rich Roll?

  A hundred percent.

• 32:52Speaker 01

  He's proven it. And I like, we had a conversation the other day and he was, I was obviously congratulating him on Badwater and he's like, yeah, it's great to shut all those, shut all those people up online because obviously he wins Moab, king of Moab, and then goes through some races where he DNFs and everyone gets on your back because of social media now, you're not the guy you were. This was a one-off and then goes and absolutely smokes Badwater.

• 33:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, like uncorks the performance of a lifetime.

• 33:15Speaker 01

  Incredible. But also it shows that there's so many variables in ultra. When you're running over a hundred miles or even a hundred miles, there's so many things that can go wrong at all points. Your altitude, it's hot. You have 20 mile, 25 mile stints where you don't see anyone. So to be perfect and to win every single time is, is really not feasible in this sport.

• 33:35Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 33:36Speaker 01

  And it shows that he went and put the work in. He did a lot of the heat training stuff, which I've been speaking with him about. And yeah, the flowers.

• 33:43Rich Roll?

  Did you meet him when you did Moab?

• 33:46Speaker 01

  I met him just before that, but yeah, the same year. Cause that was, was it two years ago? No, maybe three.

• 33:53Rich Roll?

  Here's the thing about you, Will. On a surface level and in certain ways in, in, in the way that you show up on social media, you're living this kind of aspirational jet setting lifestyle of luxury. It's like Dubai, London, Paris, Berlin, New York, you know, five star hotels and brunch and fancy dinners and, you know, uh, cold plunges and hanging out at the beach or, you know, on the Amalfi coast. There's this polarity, like there is that aspect of you that is unapologetically like enjoying their life to the absolute fullest. And then there's the nose to the grindstone, hardworking, like humble servant aspect of you.

• 34:35Rich Roll?

  You live your life in the same way an athlete trains on the polarities. It's like zone one and two, or like zone five and six. You're never in this gray zone.

• 34:44Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 34:45Rich Roll?

  But I think with that, you are kind of courting some controversy in the ultra running community, but I only know you as the humble, good friend who has, you know, a real like, like a deep spirit and a deep care for the people that, that, you know, you care about. Uh, and I don't know that that always translates necessarily. And so I'm sure you're on the, you know, kind of on the receiving end of a fair amount of like antagonism online, uh, which you seem to weather with a smile for the most part. Um, but I would imagine it weighs on you. And I think in talking about Max, this is demonstrative of one of your finest qualities, which is that you're a lifelong learner.

• 35:29Rich Roll?

  Like you're not somebody who's like, I got it figured out. You're not operating from a place of ego. When you first got interested in learning about the ultra world, like one of the first people you called was Robbie, because you saw him online and what he had done by running across the country. And now he's one of your closest friends and you just came from Colorado. Like you basically cohabitate with this guy. You go on these fancy trips and then you go to this really small town in Colorado and you ground yourself and you get the training done and you're with like your best friend. And you reach out to Max because you realize there's so much you can learn from somebody like that, especially with the heat training stuff. And how can I leverage what he decided to do in his training that would benefit me

• 36:13Rich Roll?

  on this upcoming expedition?

• 36:15Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. Life is, is a big disparity for me, but I think I've always wanted to make the most of things. And then that really got heightened when I lost my mom of the whole thing of like, tomorrow's not promised. So there's, there's part of me that's like, I want to go and experience and do everything I can. But then there's also a part of me that loves the grind, loves actually having some level of, uh, day-to-day practices that stay the same. But yeah, all of it, all of it is based around, around the loss and trying to make the most of things. Um, and I love everywhere other than the middle. I like being at Moab, doing a 15 minute nap on the side of a trail, having not slept for like 32 hours.

• 37:00Speaker 01

  And then obviously I like being in the opulence and luxury of things. And it's fun.

• 37:05Rich Roll?

  In the bathrobe, eating your poached eggs.

• 37:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. It's, it's fun to habitat, like both, both worlds, whatever you're interested in. I've always been interested in, in these things. And now somehow I've figured out how to balance them. Sure, you might say I'd be a, a better ultra athlete if I lived in the same place and trained all year, but my, my thirst for life isn't just in, in one realm. I love doing that. I love exploring that world, but also, yeah, I want to, I want to see what different cities are around the world.

• 37:37Rich Roll?

  You're not interested in being saintly or being perceived as some kind of, uh, you know, pure role model.

• 37:43Speaker 01

  No, and I don't, I don't feel like people should look up to me as, as a role model either. But one thing I would say is what I might, what I might promote is being yourself in any, any way, shape or form that you get to do that. You don't just hide and hide and try and be in one box. If you, if you're interested in something that isn't particularly normal in whatever world you inhabit, then I think that's, I think that's a good thing.

• 38:08Rich Roll?

  Hmm.

• 38:09Speaker 01

  Like you can connect with more people, the, the more sides of you that you show. And some, somehow you can get more opportunities doing it like that as well.

• 38:18Rich Roll?

  You are always unapologetically yourself. And I think that's a strength, you know, whether people like, you know, how you show up or not, you're not saying sorry for being who you are. And you're just standing in your power and in your strength. And I think that that is attractive, you know, and you're unflappable in terms of like, if people have opinions about how you're living your lifestyle, like that's about them, right?

• 38:42Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:43Rich Roll?

  But I think it creates a curiosity in the public. Like I go on Chris Williamson's podcast and like.

• 38:48Speaker 01

  That was great.

• 38:49Rich Roll?

  This guy's, it's not like he's like super into ultra running and he's like, what do you think of Will Gooch? You know, this is like, people want to know, you know? Uh, and I know you like, I don't know you super well, but I know you well enough to know the real person, you know? And, and where I think people get confused about what you're really about.

• 39:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'm a small, I'm a small town kid, son of a, a nurse and a carpenter. Like we always had food on the table. There was no opulence there, but I just always, I always, I always saw people doing amazing things and had this feeling like, I was like, why can't it be me? I've met obviously a lot of interesting people, like to me, you're a superstar to me. But when I've met them, I've seen them on the human side rather than what they've done and what they've achieved. If I meet any kind of celebrity, I, I actually feel a bit sorry for them because even in my small experience of people knowing who I am when I'm out and about sometimes, it makes me uncomfortable. So I feel some level of make, not pity, but some, some level of, you know, understanding for that.

• 39:48Speaker 01

  The most interesting person I've ever met where I was kind of like, wow, what the fuck was Felix Bowman Gata? The gentleman that jumped out of space for Red Bull, unfortunately passed away. I think it was last, last year.

• 39:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, not that long ago.

• 40:00Speaker 01

  But for me, he is one of one. He's the only person to have done that incredible thing, free falling from our space from a balloon. So that like, that blew my mind. But yeah, no, people, I just like to, I like to meet them on a human level and you might not like some of the things I do and I understand that, but I think there's a, there's more people supporting than there are trying to talk it down. And I'm, I'm okay. I'm not hurting anyone. I'm, I think I'm putting out good things towards the world. I'm trying to be myself. I'm not trying to hide or put a mask on at any point. So if you like it, great. If you don't, I also respect that and that's totally fine.

• 40:37Rich Roll?

  Fuck off.

• 40:39Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's fuck off. Sometimes it's just like, yeah, whatever.

• 40:42Rich Roll?

  I want to, I want to circle back to that in a minute, but you said that you have this kind of reflex, like, why not me?

• 40:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:53Rich Roll?

  How do you have that? Like, what did you do to cultivate that? Or what about your upbringing contributed to you having that empowered sense of self versus an inner monologue that's like, I could never do that?

• 41:06Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm not really, I'm not really sure. I think it's just because most people before they achieve something are not like famous or don't have anything. They've grown up the same as we've grown up as children or whatever. Obviously in different circumstances, but something within them made them great. And a lot of the time it's just like a mindset. People talk about manifesting, putting things out there, thinking about it and attaching themselves to it. And then it's more likely to happen. It's just, it's just always been within me in that sense. Not that I'm particularly talented across a whole bunch of things. Everything for me is just like, can I graft more than someone else to, to get where I want to be, which is inherently what running thousands of miles involves. So yeah, I can't say there's been like,

• 41:50Speaker 01

  there was like a key moment where I thought of that. It's just kind of blossomed in me from like an early age.

• 41:56Rich Roll?

  On the subject of these challenges and, and maybe even more acutely, this upcoming challenge being a hundred percent mental. Is there like a rigor or a certain practice where you're consciously trying to cultivate your mental toughness to handle this? Or, or you know, like, how do you think about that and prepare yourself?

• 42:17Speaker 01

  I have the most simple phrase of all time. Can I take another step?

• 42:22Speaker 01

  The answer is always yes, because it doesn't matter unless you've broken your leg or something has gone terribly wrong. You can always take one more step forward in which you can apply to any part of your life. But having seen my own mum fight for her life, I was there when she passed away. The, the thing of seeing someone hold on to life is, is quite insane. It's not a nice thing to experience, but it shows you what the human body is capable of, even right towards the very end. So I realized that I am not even close to that, that point. I'm not taking my last breath. So the act of taking one more step, even though it might hurt and often does over and over again,

• 43:06Speaker 01

  I can still do it. It's a very ultra realistic view of the position I'm in.

• 43:11Rich Roll?

  Well, it's basically breaking it down to like a James Clear Atomic Habits thing. Like you don't have to worry about like the New York City marathon when you're in the middle of Ohio. You just have to worry about what you're doing right now and can you take that next step? And that applies broadly to every aspect of life.

• 43:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:31Rich Roll?

  It's not a running thing.

• 43:33Speaker 01

  No, it's not.

• 43:34Rich Roll?

  People think it's about whether they're considering their own relationship with change or transformation, or trying to lose 10 pounds or whatever it is. Uh, I think there's not enough emphasis on like, the only time you can actually any, do anything whatsoever is right now.

• 43:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 43:52Rich Roll?

  And we're just thinking about like, how are we going to do that thing tomorrow? Or I should have done this other thing better yesterday.

• 43:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, we love, we love putting it off and we also love setting the intention, maybe the day before or the hour before. And then you have that reaction in your brain where you get, you get the good feedback, like you've already, already done it.

• 44:09Rich Roll?

  Already did it. Yeah.

• 44:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and that happens to me still. I still, I still do these things. I'm never perfect through, through normal life. But when you force yourself into a situation where you're doing a challenge like this, there is no way out other than to finish. You don't, you, you can't put it off by, sometimes I actually.

• 44:26Rich Roll?

  It's this profound confrontation with self. I mean, that's like the real, that's the, that's the juice of the whole ultra experience. Like you cannot escape your own weaknesses and whatever your mind is telling, like you are just like, it's right smack in your face and you gotta, you gotta, you gotta fucking grapple with that.

• 44:47Speaker 01

  You are in every second.

• 44:48Rich Roll?

  It's a truth serum.

• 44:49Speaker 01

  But the, the irony is when I do these things, I still feel lazy. So to people watching, there's no like enlightenment towards the end or during it, thinking you're fucking brilliant or whatever.

• 44:59Rich Roll?

  What do you mean you feel lazy? How could you possibly feel lazy?

• 45:02Speaker 01

  I feel like I'm either not running fast enough or I'll get into an aid stop and I might stay two minutes too long. But there is, I think it's because you're in, you're really in fight or flight. It's a very highly stressful situation to put yourself into. And that's why after I do these things outside of the physical strain it puts on your body, like my, all my systems are down when I finish these things. After Australia, I was sleeping for 16 hours a day for a week. So you really do go through a lot, but yeah, the feeling of lazy or I could have gone faster, I could have gone further is, is always there. But it's then also a driving force. So I wouldn't say it's inherently bad, but it also kind of levels, levels the playing field,

• 45:42Speaker 01

  or at least gives people an insight into that when you maybe do these things, that you still don't feel like a king of the world.

• 45:50Rich Roll?

  A huge part of the success or failure equation with this is going to be about how efficiently you're going to be able to recover in between these marathons, right? So I imagine there's a whole strategy around this and a team that is going to be joining you to attend to this. Like, what does that look like? Like this is literally on the stopwatch too. Like you have an hour, you know, before like, we're gonna, okay, we're going to get on this plane. It's a 30 minute flight. We're going to land this and you're going to have to get out and get right to it. Right? And so what can we do in that period of time to get you ready?

• 46:24Speaker 01

  I'm laughing because it's.

• 46:25Rich Roll?

  It's like Formula One.

• 46:26Speaker 01

  It's a lot less than people maybe consider. I think with, with recovery in general, I think this is just like a marketing thing. It's like, nothing is going to help me that much. It's like supplements. They're a supplement to what already should be good. So I've never had a physio on anything I've done. I've never had like a team doctor. Part of the reason for that is I feel like they're either going to tell me something I don't want to know, like something's actually wrong. And in my head, if I don't know what's wrong, I just have to push through it hurts, whatever. Or they're going to take up too much time by massaging me for 20 minutes. So.

• 47:02Rich Roll?

  There has to be a happy medium with that though.

• 47:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, we're quite a circus. Like if things start to go wrong, I don't have a doctor, but like Robbie and Jason having done these things before, know how to strap an ankle. So there's that. And then really the only things I use consistently is like the Normatec boots, the compression sleeves. I think they're great for moving blood flow around, even when I'm in ultra races, if I don't have them, like an aid stop or whatever, if it's 60 miles in, I'll put my legs in, legs in the air and you can feel like the blood draining from them and you'll massage them. So a similar kind of thing, but we're going to have to, I'm going to have to learn how to nap quite well again. Because like you say, when I've got the three in a day, some of them I'm finishing at like four o'clock in the morning and then getting in a car and driving two or three hours. And then it's like, okay, get out and do another one. So.

• 47:49Rich Roll?

  And when your nervous system is that jacked up, you'd think it would be easy to fall asleep after these things. It's actually quite difficult.

• 47:55Speaker 01

  It is, but also I think the experiences of what I've done before have made it easier. It's a, it's definitely a learned practice of being able to kind of sleep-ish on cue.

• 48:08Speaker 01

  So I'll be listening to binaural beats and stuff like that when I'm in a RV or maybe if I can on a commercial flight, I don't know. But yeah, sleep is king. Fortunately, like I've said before, there's these little buffers where there's some, there's some times where I might have like a seven hour window. So I could sleep properly. But on these events, Australia, I averaged, I think it was just over five hours a night for 34 nights. So.

• 48:35Rich Roll?

  And what's the fueling strategy?

• 48:37Speaker 01

  Fueling is, I, I eat whole foods as much as possible. Like you think it's just like a grab of calories in any way, shape or form you can, or using things like gels, but they all have like a, well, your, your gut basically has a shelf life of how much it can, it can tolerate of less than healthy things or gels, for example, like I'll use them for a marathon. I don't feel great afterwards. So yeah, I'll be trying, I'll probably be burning, depending on if it's a two or three marathon day from about 6,000 to probably 9,000 calories a day. So it's getting fuel as frequently as possible, especially on, on the, on the journeys in between.

• 49:18Speaker 01

  Usually I see the crew every seven miles and have like a, what you consider probably a meal, even if it's a shake. Um, but on this, because I have the five hour window, we have to kind of reimagine that it's, I will see the crew probably every seven miles. We'll do the three miles first with, with everyone that wants to come down and then seven, seven to finish. So I'll be probably lightly fueling on those bits and then a conscious effort in the travel between to pack on as many calories as I can.

• 49:45Rich Roll?

  One of the things you're doing is heat training. Max has you queued up on how to do that. Obviously, his experience preparing for Badwater paid off tremendously, and he's this huge proponent of it. So you've made these videos where you're putting on the same heat suit and the whole deal, but you're doing it at altitude.

• 50:06Speaker 01

  I got influenced.

• 50:07Rich Roll?

  You got influenced by an influencer, but he's so handsome.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  He's great.

• 50:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah, so how can you not be influenced by him?

• 50:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, and the proof's in the pudding.

• 50:15Rich Roll?

  Sure. So, you know, you got the core suit on, and then you got the hoodie on on top of it. You're running at altitude doing this. How long have you been doing this? Have you seen benefits from this? Or what is the experience? And what exactly are you doing? Like, lay out exactly how this is different from normal training and what you're trying to accomplish?

• 50:36Speaker 01

  So I've done two sessions so far, because I actually had a call with a thermo, I don't know, so an expert in heat training that was is part of the core team. So I had a call with them, I think it was the start of last week, and they were like, introduce it slowly. But I'll be doing two to three heated sessions a week of 50 minutes. And then I'll be doing two passive ones, which means being in a sauna. So the idea is you run five, six miles first, so your core temperature rises. And then you put the suit on and the hoodie and everything else. And then you go out for up to 50 minutes, literally cooking.

• 51:11Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  But the experience, I was actually surprised.

• 51:14Rich Roll?

  You gotta work up to that. You can't just go out and do 50 minutes.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  The first one I did, though, I did seven miles easy and then put it on. And then I did 45 minutes. And I was a bit sort of dizzy towards the end, but it felt good. The thing is, being in Colorado at that altitude is it's super, super dry. So I think the experience of me doing it down here in California, I'm gonna do one on Santa Monica Beach tomorrow, will be very different. So we're going to continue to speak to them. But with, I have like, I do my own training program for this. We have a week of, I need to get to 100 miles one way or another. But within that, there's a heat, there's two heat sessions, and there is a speed session or tempo. Because I need to be able to have the leg carryover to be

• 51:58Speaker 01

  doing back to back to back to back to etc. five hour marathons. It's quite slow, considering, but to do 50 in a row.

• 52:06Rich Roll?

  But the idea is to make the body more resilient, so that it can function as your core body temperature escalates. And so in these sessions, you have that, like, the core thing that goes in your chest strap, measuring your body temperature, and you're also paying attention to, you know, how dehydrated you're becoming. So that informs like your electrolyte and fueling strategy, if you know how much sweat loss you're experiencing. And this also is going to depend upon like humidity versus dryness. Actually, it's pretty humid out here in LA. Like incredibly, it's usually never humid. So I would take advantage of the weird humidity that we're experiencing here. Because, you know, heat in Badwater, which is very dry, is going to be different than heat in Athens, Georgia, you know, where

• 52:51Rich Roll?

  it's just humid as all get out, right? And how does your body respond to those different types of heat?

• 52:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, and I'm gonna obviously be going through all of it, considering we're doing it October to the very beginning of November.

• 53:03Rich Roll?

  It's cooling down.

• 53:04Speaker 01

  It's probably, this is not a bad water experience. It's not. But in talking to Max as well, he said, even if I was going to do like a cold race, I'd still implement it. And the whole thing of like, heat training is increasing blood plasma. And also, it teaches your body to basically regulate its temperature better. So your core temperature isn't rising as quickly. And then it's also cooling down quicker after that. So that improves recovery. And then in turn, improves everything cardio wise, you can train again quicker afterwards, etc. And then if you're in heat, then you're going to deal with it a lot better.

• 53:36Rich Roll?

  So if you crush this challenge on the heels of Max Joliffe rewriting the record book at Badwater, I can see this being a catalyst for a whole new trend of people like, exploring heat training. Like, people have always done this to one degree or another, like, old school Badwater athletes would put a treadmill in the sauna and run. But now this is just adding more science into it and experimentation.

• 54:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what was kind of interesting to me. Like, you've always seen people do it. You've seen Rocky Balboa, famous scene, gray sweatpants sweating through it. So it's always been a thing. But like you say, there's now a level of scientific and detail to it. You get like a heat adaptation score with this core device as well. So it's interesting. And like we said earlier, like, how much better athletes are going to become in this space that has been traditionally underfunded, undervalued. People have just kind of gone done it in an exploratory way. Now it's really becoming professional.

• 54:40Rich Roll?

  The most important resource we have is time. And we need to really understand how important that is, because most of us are wasting too much of it. What do you think, Andrew?

• 54:51Speaker 02

  Well, shoot, man, we just checked our screen time. And apparently, I'm spending six and a half hours a day staring at what Hassan Mihaj calls my rectangle of sadness.

• 55:02Rich Roll?

  I'm embarrassed to say, mine is even worse. This is a real problem. We need to begin to really value our time. And this is what the mission is behind Noble Mobile. Am I correct?

• 55:13Speaker 02

  Yes. Noble Mobile is the first wireless carrier that will actually pay you to use your phone less. There are billion dollar companies that want to maximize engagement to maximize their own revenue and profit. And who's benefiting from that? Them, not us.

• 55:29Rich Roll?

  We can point our fingers at them, we can blame them, or we can do something about it.

• 55:33Speaker 02

  Yes, Noble Mobile. Check us out at noblemobile.com. You can switch in five minutes, and it's only $10 for your first month if you use the code.

• 55:41Rich Roll?

  Rich Roll.

• 55:42Speaker 02

  That's right. Take back your time, your attention, and get that money.

• 55:47Rich Roll?

  And they'll pay you for using your phone less.

• 55:50Speaker 02

  Yes. Pay you to do the thing you know you want to do anyway.

• 55:53Rich Roll?

  Yes, sir. Andrew Yang.

• 55:59Rich Roll?

  This episode is brought to you by Whoop. To celebrate turning 60 in a handful of weeks, I am planning to guide a disabled athlete at the New York City Marathon, which is quite the leap from where I was not long ago, slowly recovering from spinal fusion surgery. And to be ready, I have plenty of hard work ahead of me. But I need to do it smartly. Meaning, I need to check my ego to prevent it from writing a check that my still very much healing spine simply can't cash. And this is where Whoop becomes my essential training partner, preventing me from overstrain, because I always want to

• 56:40Rich Roll?

  do too much. So I best absorb the training load that I'm putting my body through. And Whoop does this by providing feedback on how my sleep and my recovery are trending against the strain. So each day's decision gets made from evidence instead of some old habit or from insecurity or anxiety. Push today, back off tomorrow, trust the process. Getting to that start line healthy really is the achievement for me, and Whoop is how I protect it. Whatever your own start line is, can be a race, season, or just a stretch of life that you want to show up for, that awareness changes everything. So check it out. Go to

• 57:22Rich Roll?

  join.whoop.com/roll for one month free of Whoop.

• 57:31Rich Roll?

  You've run across America, you've run across Australia, you did Moab, you've done a lot of things. Like, you've worked your way up to earning, you know, your kind of like right to embark upon what you're about to do. How has your training changed or evolved? Like, what have you learned from the mistakes you've made in the past? Or, you know, how you've approached these other races? In terms of like, how you're preparing for this? Or is it always just been like, I do this thing, and it works for me?

• 58:01Speaker 01

  Now, to begin with, I just would totally make it up. And to a certain degree, I'm making it up now, but it's a lot more informed than it was. Before, it was just about high mileage and doing strength training, which I've always done. And I think is a key if you're a 10K runner or doing ultra marathons. Like, you need to have a level of strength, protection around the joints, etc. So I'm just a lot more informed, doing these heat sessions, doing speed sessions, when you think I'm running over 1000 miles, you think speed wouldn't be that important. But I need turnover. When my legs are thrashed, I still need to be able to run.

• 58:36Rich Roll?

  You're still doing track workouts?

• 58:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 58:38Rich Roll?

  Even though? You're unlikely to run faster than a 10 minute

• 58:42Speaker 01

  Correct.

• 58:43Rich Roll?

  pace for this entire thing. So like, walk me through the wisdom of that. Like, what, why do that at all?

• 58:49Speaker 01

  It's all, it's all about turnover. Like, the, the best ultra runners will still be doing speed work. You can't, you can't just go out and plod 10 minute miles every day and do high mileage. You're going to get more out of doing less miles, but having some specific sessions in there that are tempo or speed than you are doing 140 miles at the same pace. You need, you need different inputs.

• 59:11Rich Roll?

  Stimuli.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  Different stimuli. It's actually like, last weekend, we hiked Chavno, one of the 14ers in Colorado with Robbie. And that was a 10 mile experience of going extremely slowly. But that's the kind of feeling I'm going to be having on day 14. Where I've run a few hundred miles already and my legs feel extremely taxed. So how do you replicate that in a training setting? And then also be ready for it when it comes in the reality of the challenge?

• 59:36Rich Roll?

  What is the balance of strength training to traditional run training? And how does it change as you get closer to the starting line of a big event?

• 59:46Speaker 01

  I always do one session a week, even with the mileage quite high like it is now. So I'm doing over 100 miles every week. And then the two weeks before, I will switch and do two, maybe even three sessions a week while I'm in that kind of taper period. So I'm trying to load up on strength and also I'll be eating a lot more. So I don't go into it sort of emaciated or whatever, because I need something to lose when I'm on that start line.

• 1:00:09Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you need that, but you also don't want to be logging around.

• 1:00:14Speaker 01

  Unnecessary.

• 1:00:14Rich Roll?

  A bunch of extra body weight.

• 1:00:15Speaker 01

  Like I've done in the other things.

• 1:00:17Rich Roll?

  Big shoulders and chest that are only just going to get tight and demand, you know, like resources.

• 1:00:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I haven't trained upper body this entire year.

• 1:00:24Rich Roll?

  Not at all?

• 1:00:25Speaker 01

  I've done one push.

• 1:00:26Rich Roll?

  So you're a genetic freak then, because your physique is insane.

• 1:00:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, I do a lot of core work. And there'll be like, a lot of like farmer's carries and things like that. So I'm still, I'm still gripping and holding weight in my, in my arms. But it's, it's kind of a frustrating thing. I think when I'm older, I'll love it because, you know, being strong and stuff is great for longevity. But through my running career, it's actually been quite fucking annoying. I've always got a big chest and things that are completely unnecessary.

• 1:00:52Rich Roll?

  Do you do like a winter bulk? And then you taper off of that as you progress your running volume and stay enough in contact with it so that you're maintaining, you know, adequate strength for the purpose of, of, you know, ultra running performance?

• 1:01:06Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:01:07Rich Roll?

  No.

• 1:01:08Speaker 01

  I could say, like, my, my years are often geared around like a specific event or a specific race.

• 1:01:14Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:01:14Speaker 01

  When I finish.

• 1:01:15Rich Roll?

  Let me just, hold on a second. So what, what, just so we're clear, when Will says that, like, my life is oriented around a specific event or a race. Most of these things are events, a quote unquote, events. These events are the Monaco Grand Prix, Paris Fashion Week, New York Fashion Week, the Venice Biennale. You know, like, this is, this is what we're talking about, right?

• 1:01:37Speaker 01

  I was talking about races specifically, but.

• 1:01:39Rich Roll?

  Okay.

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  But yes, I do some other things.

• 1:01:42Rich Roll?

  Lifestyle event piece.

• 1:01:43Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:44Rich Roll?

  And then there's the racing event piece.

• 1:01:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, usually I do something big every two years. So this opportunity came up after Australia, which I finished last May. You're completely destroyed afterwards. Like, I took the rest of the year off, didn't really run too much, and then immediately got into Marathon Block for London this year.

• 1:02:02Rich Roll?

  What did you go? You were trying to go 245, right?

• 1:02:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I did a 247 something, which was, I think, 11 minute PB or something. So it was good, but that was also like a nice lead in to then really up in the miles because I'd had that seven, eight months of kind of doing nothing other than enjoying myself and drinking. And then straight back into the serious stuff. But yeah, all my, my years are just like constantly changing. So I don't feel like I have any kind of real program of maintenance. I like running, so I go and do it. I like going to the gym, so I do it. I don't want to be overweight. I want to be able to move freely. So there's, there's always some element of that in my practice, but there is no like, clear intention until

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  I'm like, okay, I'm doing marab in eight months. How are we going to do a training camp for that?

• 1:02:53Rich Roll?

  In doing a forensic analysis of this route and all the logistics that go into this and the, the, the just very tiny margin of error. I mean, I think it's easy to say like, well, we have a four day buffer, but like, you know, maybe you have like a two day buffer. Who knows? You know what I mean? But there has to be specific pain points along that route. Like, when you look at it, where do you see, like, the most constriction? Like, oh, that one's going to be really tough to pull off?

• 1:03:21Speaker 01

  It's when I do the, the 323. There's, there's one example where I've got a triple double, then triple, close together. So that will be, that'll be the biggest test because I can't, I don't know if you've got the states in front of you there.

• 1:03:36Rich Roll?

  So the pinch moment is day nine. You're going to do three, and then you're going to do two, and then you're going to do three again.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:46Rich Roll?

  See, to me, what looks very difficult is October 30. So at the very tail end of this thing, you're going to do Massachusetts, Vermont, and New Hampshire in one day.

• 1:03:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:03:58Rich Roll?

  And so you're going to be going into the New York City Marathon, just absolutely tanked.

• 1:04:02Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, yeah, it's, it's interesting because I am due to arrive in New York, I think at 3am. So the race starts a few hours after that.

• 1:04:12Rich Roll?

  You're going to go right from the airstrip to the starting line, basically.

• 1:04:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think we, I think we drive that section though.

• 1:04:18Rich Roll?

  Oh, you do?

• 1:04:19Speaker 01

  Yeah. But either way, it's, it's going to be interesting because when I did the similar thing, 4830, 48 marathons, 48 counties of England, 30 days, I finished the London Marathon and I PB'd. I did a 306. So that was my PB at the time.

• 1:04:35Rich Roll?

  You just realize the body is just a magical instrument.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:39Rich Roll?

  It's almost like the body is saying to you, like, oh, now I finally get it at the end. Like, I figured it out.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:04:46Rich Roll?

  You know, and, and it's as capable of astounding things. I mean, I remember when I did Epic Five, which is just a, you know, kind of a small example of what you're doing. Like, the fifth day, I felt the best.

• 1:04:59Speaker 01

  Yeah. It doesn't make, it doesn't make physiological sense, but a lot of people that do these things get fitter during it. Like Iron Cowboy. The first few days, your body's like.

• 1:05:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah, but he was absolutely falling apart at the end.

• 1:05:13Speaker 01

  He was falling apart at the end. That was extreme.

• 1:05:15Rich Roll?

  It was a close call there for a minute.

• 1:05:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. But it is funny how like the, the first few days, or I've had experience of the first nine days across Australia, which were absolutely horrendous. Your body's in shock, like, you know, what, what are we doing? When you've done it before, it's a little bit less shock. But then afterwards, there's like this, it's like your, your shoulders drop and everything becomes less stiff. And it's like, oh, this is what we do now. Mind, body, everything seems to be working together in a, in a beautiful, more fluid way. And of course, you have like bumps along the road, but it's incredible when you force your body through your mind and spirit to do something, how eventually it's like, okay, and you, you work together. I have this crazy thing where I, I talk to my body parts when

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  I'm doing these things. I'll like thank my feet at the end of the day, or.

• 1:06:04Rich Roll?

  Tell me more about this.

• 1:06:05Speaker 01

  Or if my, it actually happened when I did John and I Go to Solange's End. Phil Griffin, who, who filmed the whole thing, told me about a practice he did. And I just, I just took it in my own way. And whenever anything hurt, like it would definitely be like hip flexors or whatever, I'd be thanking like the quads or the glutes and be like, thank you for taking the strain. The hip flexors have gratitude for that. And I'd, I'd always be like, towards the end, like, don't worry, we've only got a few more days left. I need you to like, give me everything for these few days. And then it's massage time, horizontal. We're going to be great. But yeah, it's interesting to disassociate your own body from like your, your mind. Like, there are different, there are different,

• 1:06:47Speaker 01

  there's conversations always happening. But it was, it was always a beautiful practice for me that I've continued to do. Never really spoken about that much, but it's just a natural thing I've done. And I, I do really think it helps.

• 1:07:00Rich Roll?

  It's like a gratitude practice. I mean, you can do that with respect to your inner monologue also. If you start to hear that voice saying, you can stop, it's okay.

• 1:07:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:10Rich Roll?

  It'll still be good. And you can be like, thank you for your input.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:13Rich Roll?

  You know, but like, I'll take it into consideration. But like, right now, like, you know, I, I know what you're trying to do. You're trying to protect me. But like, it's just not necessary right now. And like, I'll, I'll, I'll check back in with you later.

• 1:07:26Speaker 01

  Your point, your point has been raised. I've heard it.

• 1:07:28Rich Roll?

  Yes.

• 1:07:29Speaker 01

  Right now, we're, we're not going to go with your point of view.

• 1:07:31Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:07:33Rich Roll?

  I know you have my best interest at heart.

• 1:07:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:35Rich Roll?

  Like, I appreciate you.

• 1:07:37Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:37Rich Roll?

  Rather than like, shut the fuck up.

• 1:07:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I sometimes do that, too.

• 1:07:41Rich Roll?

  Well, sometimes it's necessary.

• 1:07:43Speaker 01

  I kind of get inspiration from all forms. Whether I'm angry, whether I'm happy.

• 1:07:48Rich Roll?

  There's the physical, like, pain points along this way, like, like backing up these, you know, these, these three marathon days. But there's also logistical pain points, I would imagine, where the margin of error is very small. Like, if we don't finish this and be here by this time, like, we're gonna miss this flight.

• 1:08:06Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:07Rich Roll?

  Or we're not gonna be able to get to the next place in time, where we have enough time to actually accomplish what we need to do tomorrow, you know? And that's where the precision and the military kind of like focus on keeping you on track is gonna be important. Because you're just trying to do the thing. Somebody's got to keep you on the rails to make sure that, like, you're on schedule the whole time.

• 1:08:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:08:29Rich Roll?

  There's like no moment where you can just kick back. Because it's a domino effect on the rest. You'll, you, you threaten the entire operation.

• 1:08:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, I could.

• 1:08:38Rich Roll?

  If you fall behind, you can't, you can't really catch up.

• 1:08:41Speaker 01

  No, it's pretty, pretty much impossible. But that's also why it's so amazing. And the only reason we can do it is because of Goodwin's influence and their help. They'll have people off the scene. We've got, we're gonna have a captain in every single state that can accept, like, things we needed in the, in the buildup. So they might get sent some food, they'll get sent some, like, merchandise that they can give up. But there's a Goodwin employee managing each and every state. So we have someone on, on the ground, ready to do stuff.

• 1:09:08Rich Roll?

  And these, like, good, this is what they do. Logistics is their business, right?

• 1:09:12Speaker 01

  AI, but hu- human as well. But everything is funneling into being as seamless and as professional as possible. And if things go wrong, they'll, hopefully, I'm pretty sure I have absolute confidence in them.

• 1:09:25Rich Roll?

  Depending upon them to.

• 1:09:25Speaker 01

  They will, they will figure it out.

• 1:09:27Rich Roll?

  Or something like that, yeah.

• 1:09:28Speaker 01

  So it's very, everything is basically live in time, going on all the time.

• 1:09:33Rich Roll?

  Do you have contingency plans? Like, okay, let's say, like, some, some unforeseen variable interferes with this. We're not gonna make this flight, we're not gonna do this. So there is like a plan B that takes you on a whole different route?

• 1:09:46Speaker 01

  They have.

• 1:09:46Rich Roll?

  To accomplish this on time?

• 1:09:48Speaker 01

  They have some other, some other, um, plans, like a plan B, plan C, et cetera. I just haven't had to see them. I don't need, I don't need that in my head. I'm, I'm doing it this way, we're going plan A, it's gonna work. I'll run faster, et cetera, et cetera, so.

• 1:10:05Rich Roll?

  And this time, you have the Guinness Book of World Records, uh, onboard. Like, there's buy-in, like, you've appraised them, that this is what you're attempting to do. It's been vetted, like, you're, you're operating on a different level professionally in terms of, like, how you're tracking this to

• 1:10:26Rich Roll?

  immunize yourself against some of the attacks that you've had to weather in the past around your performance.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  Which is all fair enough. So Guinness have made it an official challenge or record that I can do. There is still some stuff we're doing with the licensing, but it's all moving in the right direction. Actually, recently, I just, I actually got the FKT across Australia.

• 1:10:49Rich Roll?

  Right, I wanted to talk about that. I mean, this is the lead into that. There's a lot of, you know, I know that you've suffered, I know that Rob, this Robbie has taken this really hard. Just all the criticism, uh, that you were on the receiving end of, like, in your, in your past attempts. I mean, with crossing America, with, you know, how well are you actually tracking it? This guy showing up on the course, we talked about this the last time you were on the show.

• 1:11:17Rich Roll?

  People questioning your heart rate data when you were running across Australia. There's countless Reddit threads about this and a lot of discourse.

• 1:11:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:11:27Rich Roll?

  Let's say, you know, and a lot of acrimony and a lot of questioning. So where are you at with that now? What is it that you want to say about all of that?

• 1:11:35Speaker 01

  Well, firstly, the burden of proof seems to just keep going up and up and up because of social media and people seeing it. Back in the day, when someone ran across the US and got the record, there was nothing to do with heart rate. If you wanted to do a Guinness World Record, you had witness statements. So the, the burden of a proof has improved or, or gone up. But these, the thing, Guinness, FKT, they have their regulations, they're professionals. They look at things in the most professional way and they are the gold standard between them. So some random people online saying, my heart rate is too low and doesn't match up. To me is just, it's because they can't believe it because they can't do it themselves

• 1:12:19Speaker 01

  or they have some kind of ill feeling towards me because of, like you said, the kind of, the life I live. But then also the levels of athleticism I can go to. So we've always tried to do what we thought was best or the most. When America happened, that's when it really, like, cranked up. I was like, fucking oh, I didn't know any of this.

• 1:12:37Rich Roll?

  Who is that guy who, who, like, flew in?

• 1:12:39Speaker 01

  Will Cockrell. Yeah, he had an issue with me because his friend, Bruce Tuller, had the British record. No one gives a fucking fuck who's the fastest Brit to run across America. It's who's the fastest person to run across America. We just use that to make it.

• 1:12:57Rich Roll?

  But he was very committed, uh, to maligning you.

• 1:13:01Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, he wants to see my downfall.

• 1:13:03Rich Roll?

  And where is he at with all of this now?

• 1:13:06Speaker 01

  Oh, he's still been messaging a bit about what we're doing. He had a problem with me saying that it was then gonna be 24 days instead of 20. Like, I had to stick to what I said originally. It's like, we were still planning it. So we, we try and do the best we can. Like, across Australia, I had a live tracker on me at all times. I've obviously got, I've obviously got the watch. So it's like, if anyone wants to turn up at any point and see where I am, which a lot, over a hundred people did across Australia, they can do that. But what, what level do I have to go to and take on expense of proving that we're doing this thing by live streaming or inviting a judge out that I have to pay to be there for 34 days? Like, it's, it's, it's mental. Like.

• 1:13:48Rich Roll?

  Live tracker, uh, you know, all the Garmin data, maybe, you know, backup Garmins or whatever you're using to track your metrics and all of that. I mean, is there anything more that you would need? Like, I don't know what the, what the expectations are with Guinness and, and everybody else. Like, what is it that they want to see you do that would sufficiently calm them down?

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Well, those guys, those guys are all okay with it. FKT and Guinness are fine with what I've, what I've applied for, the information I've given. Like, FKT will look at the, the cadence along with the, the, like, um, my splits, et cetera. And they're like, all of that matches up exactly as it should do. Your wrist heart rate data might be skewed, but when you're wearing something for 16 hours a day, running every single day, is it gonna be totally accurate? Do I need to wear an ECG when I do this thing? So we have complete.

• 1:14:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, the chest strap data can be at times unreliable also. I was on the treadmill this morning and I noticed, like, oh, my, my heart rate, this, this is not right. Like, you know, based on perceived effort, like, what it was telling me. I was like, this is, I need a new heart rate monitor or something. Because this is like all over the place.

• 1:14:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes you'll move your wrist strap or I'll like tighten it.

• 1:15:03Rich Roll?

  The wrist is always tremendously unreliable.

• 1:15:05Speaker 01

  But yeah, the, the thing is, it's like, what fucking more do you want from us? Like, we're broadcasting it all out there. You can see where we are at all times. For America, we're obviously taking it to another level. I will wear two watches, so we have like a backup Strava account that's, you can see that I'm definitely doing the distance. And because it's so construed of doing a marathon distance in each state, I need two forms of distance. And then obviously whichever watch is the furthest. So one might be at like 26.2, but the other one might be at 26.1. So I'll go to, I'll use the other one and then, and then continue to go. Like I said, we've got an open door policy for the first three miles of every single run, so people can come down. The courses.

• 1:15:48Rich Roll?

  And the final 5K also, right?

• 1:15:50Speaker 01

  Uh, I think we're just gonna do the opening.

• 1:15:52Rich Roll?

  Just opening.

• 1:15:53Speaker 01

  Uh, 5K. But then all of my routes are gonna be visible as well that I'm taking. And I'm gonna have the live tracker on me, so at any point you can pull up and check if I'm running.

• 1:16:02Rich Roll?

  All right, so what do you really want to say to the haters out there?

• 1:16:05Speaker 01

  I just fucking get a life, really. I mean, what I would also say is, thank you. Because all of their attention has only just built into everything I'm doing. So the more attention I get, the more people saying, like, well, it's actually a very small, small section of people that say fake things. But it all goes towards the machine of this being professional, me doing bigger and better things, me having the opportunity to do what I'm about to do. So inadvertently, even though you're trying to take me down, you're actually raising me up even more.

• 1:16:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:36Speaker 01

  It's funny in the comments when you see, like, people that I know or just strangers that are, like, backing me up. The Strava, the Strava ones across Australia were insane.

• 1:16:48Rich Roll?

  Do you engage with this or you're just, you know, kind of vicariously?

• 1:16:52Speaker 01

  Uh, I don't have the time. I'm, I'm running 16 hours a day and then I have to sleep as soon as I can afterwards, so.

• 1:16:59Rich Roll?

  But I mean, in the aftermath and you're kind of going through it.

• 1:17:02Speaker 01

  Uh, no, not really. I don't really look at, look back at a whole load of things. Like, I never watch the videos of what I've done before. I recently started watching the America thing again, so I haven't watched it since I did it. I've never listened back to a podcast I've done. For me, it's like moments in time that I was in and is beautiful and I enjoy it. But the whole thing of looking back, I don't know. Maybe, I'll, I think I'll do it eventually when I'm older and I'm maybe out of this world to see what I've done and how it's shaped who I've become. But yeah, the day to day, it's like, I'm, I'm living in today and also seeing what's next.

• 1:17:37Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Is there a sense of anxiety as you get closer to the date? Or is it just enthusiasm? Like, on this mantra of, like, one more step? Like, trying to break it down into, like, okay, what do I have to do today? Obviously alleviates some of that stress and pressure, but it's so daunting. I would imagine, you know, like, you might be waking up in the middle of the night occasionally saying, like, what did I get myself into? This is insane. Or no?

• 1:18:05Speaker 01

  No, I don't, I'm, I'm excited. It's like, um, it's an opportunity to do something great, to see all 50 states. Any point in your life is cool. I'm obviously not gonna see a whole lot of it, it might be five or six hours. But it's, it's such a big opportunity that who knows if it will ever be done again. Somehow I'm the man that's gonna be going out and doing it. So there's a level of privilege, there is a level of pressure behind it. Because I'm representing, like, Stand Up To Cancer and I want to do a good job for them and raise as much money as we can. I'm always representing my mom, so there's an element of that as well. But the overriding feeling is one of joyous curiosity of, of what's to come. I love adventure in all forms.

• 1:18:50Speaker 01

  And this is pretty pinnacle of what I've done so far.

• 1:18:54Rich Roll?

  I mean, I think that's, that's the best mindset to be in, right? To be able to enjoy it or appreciate it while it's happening.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:19:03Rich Roll?

  And not be fixated on like crossing the finish line in New York City.

• 1:19:07Speaker 01

  Yeah. And also, I know it's going to be terrible at times, but that's also why I do it.

• 1:19:13Rich Roll?

  This is what, this is what you're signing up for.

• 1:19:15Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's what, that's what you want, like to go through something hard and to get out the other side is the ultimate goal of most things. And the feeling of being worthy or earning something through hard work for me is, is, is amazing. So I get to do that again in those really dark moments. It's like, how do I get out of that? Do I learn something? Do I go back on something I've, I've done before? But it's always a test and you're only as good as your last day. Or in this case, like, like your last marathon, like nothing before it matters. Nothing matters after it when I'm in it. It's do I have it, do I have the dog in me today to, to get the, to get it done? And then we'll do tomorrow, tomorrow.

• 1:19:54Rich Roll?

  Setting aside the philanthropic aspect of this cancer awareness and raising money for research and care, et cetera. And understanding your disinterest in, in being considered any kind of like role model. You are at the same time, like stewarding a message around human potential and capability. So outside of the cancer aspect of this, like what is it? What is, what is the message that you want people to receive? Who are going to follow along on this? Like what, what is it that you want them to feel and believe as a result of you tackling such a difficult challenge?

• 1:20:31Speaker 01

  I just, I want them to be less scared. I think a lot of us move through life with fear of losing something, not being enough. And a lot of the time fear stops us from, from chasing our dreams or chasing our goals. So I'm just trying to be a voice for, I'm, I'm going to go and do this thing. The outcome is not guaranteed. There are so many variables and so many things that could go wrong, but I'm still going to go into it with like a level of confidence that I can get this done. Because I'm putting my mind to it. There's, there's so much of me invested in this that we can do way bigger things than we ever thought of. Like I said, I'm from a small town in the middle of England. This conversation right now was not part of my bingo card.

• 1:21:15Speaker 01

  And basically 95% of the rest of my life wasn't either. So yeah, get out and chase something. It doesn't have to be running, but do it without fear.

• 1:21:24Rich Roll?

  And it's not like you came up as a runner. You were a rugby player.

• 1:21:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:21:28Rich Roll?

  Running came later in life and it came as a way of managing your, your grief. Honestly, it wasn't like, oh, I'm going to become a runner and become this competitive athlete. It's just, that's what it served you for at that time. And it was a natural outgrowth. It wasn't like, I'm going to get into this and then eight years from now, I'm going, this is what I'm going to be doing. Like, I think people think that someone like yourself or people that are achieving at, at a high level in, in, in their respective discipline,

• 1:22:01Rich Roll?

  made a plan, you know, long ago and whiteboarded out the whole thing. And they're just like in lockstep with that plan. And maybe that occurs with some people, but I think more often than not, when it's inspired by some kind of genuine emotion, you're just kind of following that and you're making space for these magical things to come into your life. So it's more about an openness than it is about goal setting necessarily.

• 1:22:27Speaker 01

  Yeah, I'd agree that a hundred percent. There was no, there was no plan when I got into it. I never saw past running John O'Grady's Land's End. And then after that, it gave me like a bit of confidence and maybe I could explore this more, which led to 48th day, which led to the, the US, which led to Australia, et cetera, et cetera. So yeah, I think it's, it's not being closed off to what the world is doing because the world's always changing. Everything is changing together. And yeah, everything I do is explorative.

• 1:22:58Rich Roll?

  I love the relationship that you have with Robbie.

• 1:23:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:01Rich Roll?

  So I want to hear more about what that relationship is like and, and what role he plays in your life.

• 1:23:09Speaker 01

  Well, I actually had quite an emotional chat with him. I think it was before Moab. And I basically said to him, and I was, I was kind of crying when I said it, but I needed to get it across of like how important he is to me. I said, I lost, I lost my mom in the January and I was, I, I'd lost such a huge part of my life. There was a, there was a gaping hole. And then I truly feel like she sent Robbie to me as like an angel to be able to take this young, young adult that was, had this dream of doing something that he shouldn't have been able to do, but also be a voice of reason. And I, I see very similar like qualities and charac- characteristics between them.

• 1:23:54Speaker 01

  Robbie has been so giving to me and always got behind what I did. And his enjoyment or his gratification out of it is through me completing it. My mom was very much in that vein as well. It was like, how do I, how do I allow my son to be free and do the things he wants to do? And then celebrate his achievements if he has any. So yeah, me and my relationship with Robbie is extremely special. Like I say, I, I feel like my mom left and he arrived to fill some of that gap. And he's really been a steward of taking me from this fucked up 23 year old. And then guided me through everything, even like I said, I didn't have a plan and maybe neither did he.

• 1:24:37Speaker 01

  He's really like held my hand through that entire experience and allowed me to achieve what I've been able to achieve. Because honestly, without him, I would have failed John O'Grady's Land's End. There was a time on that where I ruptured a ligament in my ankle going through this field. And I got back into the, the wagon and I was like distraught. My ankle was like the size of a football.

• 1:25:00Speaker 01

  No one else could tell me anything because they hadn't done anything. But I saw this Robbie Ballinger character as this larger than life, amazing guy who'd ran across the US recently. So what he says has, holds a lot of weight for me. And he was basically like, the, the schedule's too tight. It, your, you, you will figure it out. Your ankle will learn how to, to move again. It's like, but you have to get out and do it now. And in any other situation with anyone else in the world telling me that, I'd have told him to fuck off and I'd have canceled it for the day. It might've taken me an extra week or, or I've never done it and I wouldn't be here now. So that's the, the level of impact it's had on my life.

• 1:25:37Rich Roll?

  Other than then just being a, a general like sage and mentor, like what are some other pieces of, of concrete advice that he's given you?

• 1:25:48Speaker 01

  Concrete advice.

• 1:25:49Rich Roll?

  To keep you, to keep this, you know, this bright eyed, occasionally wayward young man.

• 1:25:56Speaker 01

  He's helped me on the way, on the wayward side as well. Cause they, he had a rule when we were going across Australia, which I've always implemented, which is always one beer, sometimes two, never three. So there's, we're quite, it's quite like a pirate operation. Like we're, we're kind of all over the place, but we like to have fun in the, the ridiculousness of what we're doing.

• 1:26:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You would finish the day and you're like, I'm going to have a beer. Like, why not? Like, why does it have to be like just all hardness and suffering? Like there is a different way to experience this.

• 1:26:26Speaker 01

  Is this an element of that that takes you out of what you're doing? And in a lot of society, if you've had a tough week at work, you go to the pub on a Friday and you have a beer. You've done something good. So that allows us, me to like disassociate with what I'm doing. And also as like a tight knit crew will like have dinner together and it feels.

• 1:26:44Rich Roll?

  Your nervous system can.

• 1:26:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then I just relax and then yeah, take my head out of what I'm doing because it's so extreme. And in, in my life and the way you see it, it's like, I have to enjoy things along the way. I can't be, I'm never going to be training and doing the same thing for 12 months. Like the, the athletes I love from the past and people I can think of like, um, like Dennis Rodman. He was, couldn't shoot, but he defended like a dog and the coach would let him go to Vegas and do his thing, blast some steam.

• 1:27:16Rich Roll?

  Wasn't afraid to enjoy his life.

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:27:18Rich Roll?

  He was on the far end of that extreme, I think, maybe to his detriment, but.

• 1:27:23Speaker 01

  But those, those kinds of athletes, I think it's just like, people need to be managed differently. People have different like kinks and things they need or they're interested in. And yeah, I like people that do things that do things their own way. Like we've said about me being unapologetic myself. Like I, I really love like Ben Felton, who's Ben is running on Instagram, known him for years. He's so dedicated to, to running every day and being like a professional. Like I, I just love the way he promotes his stuff and he is himself. I feel, I feel the realness of someone. And I also feel like the, the fakeness of holding things up and I'm going to go and do all major marathons in a year. So I can Tik Tok it like.

• 1:28:03Rich Roll?

  Who were the other people out there that inspire you in different ways?

• 1:28:07Speaker 01

  Max is a big one. Max is great. We spoke about obviously, um, Mark earlier as well. Well, he's doing amazing and also to have seen him come out on the US and just like this random guy turns up and now he's doing that shit is, is incredible. Who else is it? Obviously Robbie. Truett Haynes, I think he's brilliant. I love.

• 1:28:28Rich Roll?

  He's, he's another guy who's unapologetically.

• 1:28:30Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:28:31Rich Roll?

  In a, in a cool and interesting way that brings a whole other swath of. Person into this world.

• 1:28:38Speaker 01

  Exactly.

• 1:28:39Rich Roll?

  Running in his jeans and you know, the whole deal like.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's crazy.

• 1:28:43Rich Roll?

  Performance art on some level, but it's coming from a genuine place.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  Exactly. So yeah, I like these like movers and shakers that are doing interesting things. And I like people that set big lofty goals, even if they, even if you don't eventually make it like, get out your comfort zone.

• 1:28:59Rich Roll?

  Right. Truett saying like, he's gonna, he's gonna, he wants to qualify for trials.

• 1:29:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:29:04Speaker 01

  Insane.

• 1:29:05Rich Roll?

  And a lot of people saying that's impossible. You're way too, you have way too much muscle. You're way too big. Like there's a huge, like every minute after a certain point becomes exponentially harder to shave off your marathon time. And he is like out of his mind, thinking he's going to be able to improve that much in this amount of time. And we'll see.

• 1:29:21Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:22Rich Roll?

  But he's documenting it and he's being transparent about it. And he seems like unaffected by that. It's just, it's, it's attention farming on some level, but it's an interesting story that I think the average person can understand. Like, oh, I see this guy. He looks different than these other guys. He's trying to do this thing. I guess that's a hard thing to do. And now I'm invested in seeing whether he can do it or not.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  Yeah. Yeah. I like people having a crack, whether they make it or not. And yeah, just go for it. And then another, another guy who's also like an actual professional is George Mills. It's one of the fastest like British and European, like 5K runners. And I've, I've sought his counsel quite a lot over the years.

• 1:30:05Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's good. So you're getting elite pro counsel from one of the best in the world.

• 1:30:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. Cause also when I was doing London, when I was in, I was in Tokyo for quite a while before I did that, um, which was actually good because of the start of the year, I'd been in Dubai and then Bali in Indonesia. So it was very hot, very humid. And then I got to Japan. I was like, I still need to do some kind of heat training. And he was the one that told me about getting in a 40 degree bath for 20 minutes. And he was sending me all these photos from like the ones he'd made himself. But yeah, having that like elitist grew up, grew up doing track and field, like from a young age, like all that experience he's had now, obviously being great at what he does. Like you get, you get different, um, you get different information from someone like that than even

• 1:30:51Speaker 01

  like Max doing the heat suit stuff. Max is kind of new to it. Truett's new to it. You could say I'm new to it, even though I've been around for eight, nine years in this game. But that's like the old school professional running information that I get.

• 1:31:05Rich Roll?

  Is there anything else you're doing in training that is counterintuitive or different or experimental?

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Uh, some of the time I lean into, um, not fueling, like, um.

• 1:31:16Rich Roll?

  Fasted training.

• 1:31:17Speaker 01

  Uh, Killian Journe. Like I remember reading his book, Above the Clouds, is it? And him being like a kid and his mom giving him like 250 milliliters of water to go and run a marathon. So I do a lot of, I do, I do both because I now understand the need in training your gut to deal with high levels of, high volumes of food, et cetera. So sometimes I'll go out on an empty stomach and try and test the body. So I don't need as much. But then I also realized I have to do the opposite and sometimes get into what I'm going to be doing. Like eat a heavy, eat a heavy meal and then go out running afterwards.

• 1:31:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The fasted training is good to train your body to operate efficiently without a constant, you know, fuel input.

• 1:31:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:01Rich Roll?

  And by doing that, you realize like, you don't have to bring all this stuff with you, you know, if you're going out for a two hour run and you're at a certain level of fitness or whatever, like you can manage it. It's fine. It will impair how well you recover for the, if you have a big workout the next day, you'll pay for it then, but you'll be able to do that workout in, in this event that you're doing. Like you're not going to be doing any of this. Like you're, you're always, whenever you're eating, you're eating for the next marathon. Like you're not eating to complete that marathon. You're always thinking ahead and planning and measuring out your calories for that purpose. But I think it's cool to like experiment with, with all of these things.

• 1:32:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think you should just be.

• 1:32:37Rich Roll?

  Have you, have you paid attention to what David Roche has done with like, on the other end of like fasted training? Like he's trying to see how many, uh, grams of carbohydrates he can, he can like digest. Because if he can, if he can digest more than the average runner, or even get it like to this elevated state, he can sustain a threshold pace for much longer and like lay out like insane performances, which he did at Leadville. He's gotten injured. He's had some struggles or whatever. It's not perfect, but like, there is something there also that I think is really interesting.

• 1:33:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, there definitely is. And in the professional game, it's really coming through now of how many carbs you can consume in an hour.

• 1:33:16Rich Roll?

  That and bicarb.

• 1:33:17Speaker 01

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 1:33:18Rich Roll?

  Have made a big difference.

• 1:33:19Speaker 01

  I've never actually used that, but it is, it is interesting, but I think that's better suited to doing one race.

• 1:33:25Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:33:25Speaker 01

  Rather than.

• 1:33:25Rich Roll?

  And also when you're running a threshold, like at a, at a, when you're like getting into anaerobic zones.

• 1:33:30Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm running at 10 to 12 minute miles max, where my heart rate happens to be a hundred.

• 1:33:37Rich Roll?

  At your very controversial low heart rate.

• 1:33:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. I don't know if anyone else has gone and run a 12 minute mile, but it's like a fast walk. And your heart rate doesn't really get up very high.

• 1:33:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah. When it gets hot, it does. But the heat training will keep it, keep it down, I would imagine.

• 1:33:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:33:52Rich Roll?

  I think Max's heart rate over the course of Badwater was like 143 or something like that.

• 1:33:59Speaker 01

  That's insane.

• 1:33:59Rich Roll?

  I mean, if you ever tried to run in a hundred and 20 degree heat, your heart rate just goes through the roof instantly.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  I'm terrible at it. That's why I've started doing the heat training because I thought I could just go to a hot country and kind of figure it out. But I couldn't.

• 1:34:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Let's shift gears. Uh, I'm curious around

• 1:34:19Rich Roll?

  your experience with psychedelics, because I think this has contributed to how you think about not just your running, but like life and what's important.

• 1:34:29Speaker 01

  Obviously, everything I've pushed and promoted about getting over, like my mom's passing was deeply rooted in destroying my body physically and finding some kind of spiritual help through, through that world. But the other thing that I've done on more than a few occasions now is, is psilocybin. And the first time I did it was before, actually it was, when would that have been?

• 1:34:58Speaker 01

  It was after 4830. So probably 2022. There's always been, like I said, I've always been explorative. And around that time, I started hearing things around magic mushrooms and their association with like helping people that have gone through trauma, et cetera. So I was always interested in that world. And I got a lot of literature, listened to a lot of podcasts about it. And then the way I do things, which has become quite apparent is I don't want to like half go into something. It's like, I went straight to heroic. So I did, I did, I did six grams of psilocybin.

• 1:35:36Rich Roll?

  In a medically assisted.

• 1:35:38Speaker 01

  No.

• 1:35:38Rich Roll?

  Environment, just on your own, freewheeling it.

• 1:35:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. I've had this, um, I was out in the countryside.

• 1:35:45Rich Roll?

  For the audience, out of like, uh, you know, a sense of responsibility, please do not try this.

• 1:35:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Don't do anything. Don't do anything I do.

• 1:35:53Rich Roll?

  Single thing that Will does.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:56Rich Roll?

  Okay. Clarify.

• 1:35:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:58Rich Roll?

  Alert the lawyers.

• 1:35:59Speaker 01

  Yes. Good idea. But I went, I went through this experience. Um, and for me, it was the most transformative thing I've ever been through. Towards the end of the trip, like obviously it was quite psychedelic and things went a bit crazy. But towards the end, I'd made this little camp. So like when you're a kid and you take the sheets off the bed and you start getting things. I also had this starlight that shot up a constellation. So as, I was laying in this makeshift tent, like looking up at this constellation when the trip was kind of getting to its deepest point. And originally, all of these stars compiled to make my grandfather's face, who was alive at the time. I was like, oh, that's very beautiful. And then, and then they all went to my mom.

• 1:36:44Speaker 01

  And when you do a psychedelic experience, it's like you get told information and you feel like, it's like you understand it. It's like you're getting an external voice, but what you're being told is absolutely true. And I felt my mom's presence and spirit within me. I felt very much connected to my dad as well. I felt like I, I was born of both of them, which is, which is true. But there was this, there was this palpable energy. There was this feeling that she was within me and has carried me this entire way. And I've had similar experiences at the, like the depths of going, going through a run. And then I had this, and I was out in the cosmos, whatever you want to

• 1:37:28Speaker 01

  call it. And one of the most profound feelings I've had, which I try to carry with me in every day now, is I got sucked out of whatever world this was. And I was, I was out in the constellations and there was this, um, central consciousness. It was like this huge brain mass of things. And I could see the world down there and there were just thousands of these, these double, it was like, um, like an airplane's jet stream, just shoot, just shooting down. And the information I got told, and it's one of almost forgiveness or understanding why people maybe do things that, um, don't align with your version of feeling is all these jet streams were the perception or the

• 1:38:11Speaker 01

  view, the lens of people's lives. So from front to back, what they've experienced, what they've seen. And I just had this profound sense that people may do messed up things or things you don't agree with. But if you had the same life lens of them, you would have done exactly the same thing. So there was a lot of like weight lifted off of feeling maybe annoyed at like people for having differing, differing opinions. It definitely leveled, leveled everything out quite a lot. And yeah, that was the, that was the first experience and the most profound one that made me feel the main, I wrote down loads of notes, but the main feeling I had, and if I could rate a feeling

• 1:38:54Speaker 01

  like number one, I felt reassured. Reassurance, being reassured in anything is like, there's a level of comfort to it. So I just had this.

• 1:39:02Rich Roll?

  It's, it's fine.

• 1:39:04Speaker 01

  Yeah. I had this reassurance that like energy, energy is forever. There's this cosmos out there. We're living in somewhat of a matrix, but my mom's energy, one is within me, which is a beautiful feeling to have. She's here. She's close. But also it lasts forever. It's, it's everywhere I go. When I'm, when I'm running, I'll, I'll always notice like if a bird is like kind of following me and I'll be like, I feel like that's her or a butterfly, whatever. So yeah, it was, um, it was a profound experience. And I've done it at like key moments in my life along the way and had a lot of different lessons from it. But it's definitely shaped how I do things and my comfortability with life and when things go wrong and just being able to.

• 1:39:43Rich Roll?

  Let it go.

• 1:39:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:39:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What are some of those lessons more specifically?

• 1:39:48Speaker 01

  The one, one great one I had before, um, America was, I was out in Colorado with Robbie and Jason. And we were in, we're in Jason's cabin, which is in the middle of nowhere. There's no electricity. There's no water. There's a stream out there. You turn up and you have to like chop wood and put it on the fire, whatever.

• 1:40:07Speaker 01

  I did a heroic dose with them and we went out walking in the woods and around those two guys, I've got like my idol in Robbie, everything he's done. And then I've got Jason, this military guy, he's, he's very well spoken, he's very spiritual. So I put both of these guys on a pedestal, which I don't feel like I'm on. I don't feel like I'm these guys level. And we're out, we're out walking in the snow because it was freezing cold at the time. I think we were, his cabin's at 10,000 feet, we were just going wandering through the woods. Firstly, we had this moment where we all sat down and was just looking at this incredible scene as the Colorado mountains are, snow everywhere. And we were just like, let's all take a moment for ourselves.

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  So close our eyes. And at that moment, I had like demons coming out to kind of grab me. But I wasn't scared and I was, I leant into it. I was like, like, show me, show me what you want to show me. Like if I need to go down this journey or whatever, then do it. So I alleviated some kind of fear of the unknown and they, they disappeared. But the main thing was on the way back, Robbie and Jason basically let me lead. And I felt that I had matured to a certain level where I could lead great men. It was like a real transition into feeling like a, a man or getting to adulthood in a way. Cause these people I love and respect so much had almost passed the baton on to me and said, you lead us.

• 1:41:35Speaker 01

  So that was a, that was another one that set me, set me well for like that next transitional phase in life being, I think I was 26 at the time. So getting close towards 30 and feeling like I could stand on my own two feet and, and lead.

• 1:41:49Rich Roll?

  Yeah. What I see is somebody who uh feels like they hold the right balance in terms of

• 1:42:01Rich Roll?

  wanting to accomplish something great, uh, while also recognizing like the true value of that, like it's not that important, you know, like whether you do this or not, you know what I mean?

• 1:42:15Rich Roll?

  And somebody who has grown from a person who used running to process grief, but also to punish yourself. Like this is what I relate to, like, I'm in this place of recognizing that

• 1:42:35Rich Roll?

  the history of my relationship with athletics and specifically like, you know, swimming and ultra endurance. These are vehicles for self-flagellation, you know, it's a way of saying, I have to pay penance for breathing air and uh, that tax that I um, owe, I can pay by like punishing myself in the pool or, you know, on these long training days or what have you.

• 1:43:04Rich Roll?

  And what happens is that you get some material world success and validation for that. And so you double down on that, but fundamentally the relationship is unhealthy. Like you're, you're sort of in this abusive relationship with yourself and you're extracting performances from it. And it's powering your life and like moving you towards the things that you want in life, right? So it's confusing and my healing journey has really been about understanding that it doesn't have to be that way. And through similar experiences that I've had, and then this surgery where I was, it was really just like God or the universe saying, you need to stop, you know? We're forcing you to stop. We're giving you this get out of jail free card. You can't move.

• 1:43:47Rich Roll?

  The one thing that makes you more uncomfortable than anything is sitting still with yourself and your own thoughts, but there's no escape. So this is your ultra, like what are you going to make of it? And by deciding to just embrace that rather than be in the mindset that I would have been otherwise, and I think most people are in of how quickly can I recover and get back to this person I was before? Saying if I stop resisting the one thing that I know will benefit me, who is the better person that I can become as a result of this? Like, can I sit still at peace with myself? Can I be more present in my life? Can I really commit to a true mindfulness and meditation practice?

• 1:44:31Rich Roll?

  Such that it will transform my life in the ways that so many of the great mystics have promised that it will. What will become of me? Who can I become as a result of that investment? And this is not something I've done perfectly, you know, and by any stretch of the imagination, but I would say that I am able to be that person and I am able to hold all of these things that I do more loosely, the podcast, whatever, you know, like these are not that important. You know, what's important is your capacity to give and receive love and show up for the people that you care about. And to enjoy your life. And as I begin to build my body back and restore some relationship with fitness,

• 1:45:15Rich Roll?

  it's not about like punishing myself or seeing how hard I can go or what crazy thing I can do. It's about like, how can I honor this body that's carried me for 60 years? And nourish it through these things that I love that make me feel like me and then share it for the benefit of other people. And that's something I could not have said like a year ago.

• 1:45:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, it's been beautiful to see your journey because obviously I've known you for what, five, six years now? And I, I know from, because obviously Finding Ultra is one of the first books I read alongside Dean's, Dean's book. So I, I understand from a point where athleticism is my life, it's my career, it's my profession. So I can't imagine what you had to go through of having that side of your life stopped. Stopped entirely because there kind of was nothing you could do about it at the time. And it's been beautiful to like, now you're ripped roll or rich swell. You look, you look amazing, but it's like, I, I feel like now my experience in conversation with you, you've got, you've got part, part of you back.

• 1:46:19Speaker 01

  It's like the, the whole thing of having something missing. You seem more, you seem more complete to me, which is, which is a compliment, but also a compliment that you, you rode out that storm for so many years of not being able to do something that was so important to you, but still giving things out, giving out love, giving out beautiful things. And like this platform, who you have on, how you treat people. So yeah, I'm, I'm appreciative of your journey.

• 1:46:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah, thank you. Um, and I would say that the two psychedelic experiences that I had have contributed to that, but they're not solely responsible for it. Like, I don't want anybody to get the misapprehension that like you do this thing and then your life changes. It's like, this is on top of like so much other work that you have to do in, in, in your life through all kinds of therapeutic modalities. And it's really about like how you integrate these experiences and translate them into some kind of contrary action that you can build upon.

• 1:47:18Speaker 01

  Yeah, the whole point is.

• 1:47:19Rich Roll?

  The experience itself. I know plenty of people that do this stuff way too much and they're kind of the same person.

• 1:47:27Rich Roll?

  And I think that our culture has a, has a way too cavalier relationship with them. And they're sort of considered benign and they're not benign at all and they're not for everybody. So that's my, like, that's also my like disclaimer about all of this stuff. I'm not here to evangelize it or say that anybody should or should, you know, go do this or definitely you should do this.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  I'm on the, I'm on the same, I'm on the same, same thing as you. It's just an experience I've done. Like I don't, I would never tell anyone to do anything, to be honest. It's just my experience, some things that have helped me along the way. We're all trying to figure out if there was one stop shop to fix all of our problems and we'd have figured it out by now. But it's an amalgamation of, of everything you go, go through and all the practices you do.

• 1:48:11Rich Roll?

  What's the one thing uh, that might wake you up in the middle of the night when you're thinking about what you're about to do? Like, is there any one aspect of it that you're feeling uncertain about or a little bit wary?

• 1:48:23Speaker 01

  Maybe it's like the inviting so many people in. Cause a lot of these things have just been like me and a crew out in the middle of nowhere. Whereas this is like major cities.

• 1:48:32Rich Roll?

  To limit it to just the first 5K. But you need a handler to make sure you're not caught up in like, you know.

• 1:48:37Speaker 01

  Robbie.

• 1:48:38Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's like, come on, you gotta go.

• 1:48:40Speaker 01

  But like, people could watch at any point they, they want, but I know how locked in I need to be and focused on this thing. And that is um, that is an external thing we haven't experienced before. But what I would say about it that makes me confident is when I ran across the US or Australia, when people have shown up, it's been out of the blue, like not planned. So I'm kind of caught off guard. Whereas with this one, I feel like.

• 1:49:06Rich Roll?

  It's regimented.

• 1:49:07Speaker 01

  It's regimented. I feel like a, I feel like it's a beautiful opportunity to connect with people. Cause there's, there's so many people that message me along the way when I'm doing these things, like asking how they can take part or be a part of it. And it's a very difficult question to answer. Find my tracker and come and see me if you want. But this is like, I get to involve everyone that wants to be involved anywhere in the States. So it should be close to where you are. If you want to come out and do this thing. Sometimes it might be two o'clock in the morning. Sometimes it might be in the middle of the day on a Wednesday. But yeah, I think it's um, it's, it's slightly a stress, but how I'm thinking about it is a beautiful opportunity to connect with people, raise more money, hear other stories. And I feel like it will like push me forward to, to be performing at my peak.

• 1:49:51Rich Roll?

  It's also going to build as you go.

• 1:49:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:49:54Rich Roll?

  I remember this happened with the Iron Cowboy, uh, you know, when he started like, cause he was, he opened it up. Like you want to come, you can come. Nobody was coming, you know? Even though like this is, I mean, I still can't get my head around, I mean, it's one thing, marathons are one thing, like Ironman's. 50 states in 50 days. It's like so insane to me. It's still so vastly underappreciated what he accomplished. But you know, it built along the way. So by the time he was, you know, getting near the end, like all kinds of people were coming up. And I went for the last day and it was like a rock, it was like a rock concert, you know? So I would expect something similar for you, you know? Cause more important, like the word will get out.

• 1:50:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:50:34Rich Roll?

  The story is going to get shared.

• 1:50:37Rich Roll?

  And that's a cool energy, you know?

• 1:50:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. It lifts you up a lot.

• 1:50:41Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:50:42Speaker 01

  So I'm excited.

• 1:50:43Rich Roll?

  More of that, less of the uh, slings and arrows this time around.

• 1:50:47Speaker 01

  I mean, they'll be around for sure. But you know, it's part of it. So whatever.

• 1:50:52Rich Roll?

  I love you, buddy. I'm so excited to watch this go down and uh, all things going well. I will see you in New York City for the New York City Marathon.

• 1:51:01Speaker 01

  Love you too, brother. Thank you for having me on and another beautiful conversation. I always feel, um, I've always feel like lifted up or I've, I've learned something about myself by talking to you, which is,

• 1:51:11Rich Roll?

  I hope so.

• 1:51:12Speaker 01

  Which is a big compliment.

• 1:51:14Rich Roll?

  Glad to hear that. Before we close it down for good, uh, two things. First. Why don't you take us out with a message to the person who is struggling with making a change in their life, who maybe has had fits and starts, but is deflated because for whatever reason, they can't get over the hump and they're not feeling that self-confidence that you seem to have?

• 1:51:39Speaker 01

  I would say what you're weighing up is if you don't do this thing, it's going to be way worse than if you start. The hardest thing is often starting, but if you look at like a more of a bird's eye view, you're struggling now and you're not doing the right things to get over it. The only time to start is right now and you might not recognize that person from before who was scared, angry, self-loathing. The only way to get through it is start now, do hard things and you can reinvent yourself in a beautiful way and you can do anything.

• 1:52:13Rich Roll?

  So, second thing, obviously, people can follow along on your Instagram, but what is the website where people can engage in the live tracking, find out where you are so they can join you for the 5K run, contribute to the GoFundMe and Stand Up To Cancer, all the good stuff?

• 1:52:31Speaker 01

  It's going to be on MissionAmerica50.org and that will have everything. It's like a HQ website, so live tracker, routes, ways to donate, all the partner information, everything you could think of under one roof. It's a very impressive website and there's been a lot of people working on it, so I'm very grateful to them for that.

• 1:52:53Rich Roll?

  And for all the people who are lurking on the Let's Run forums and the Redditors out there, if you're still wringing your hands over what Will did in Australia, you can go to fastestknowntime.com where they have verified that you indeed got the FKT for your transcontinental run across Australia and they have it backed up with all these files, verifications, travel files, et cetera.

• 1:53:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's good because they-

• 1:53:22Rich Roll?

  You've been acquitted, basically, in the court of ultra-running controversy.

• 1:53:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, the highest court of judgment, FKT.

• 1:53:32Rich Roll?

  There you go.

• 1:53:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, if you want to look at that, if you want to look through it again, be my guest.

• 1:53:35Rich Roll?

  Right on. And we're going to have to do a part two to this after you finish this thing because I can't imagine the stories that you're going to accumulate along the way here. It's going to be just absolutely insane.

• 1:53:47Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's going to be, it's going to be a good one. I look forward to that, but I'm also looking forward to every step along the way.

• 1:53:53Rich Roll?

  Good. That's the only way you're going to make it, right? Wind in your sails and enjoy the Odyssey and hopefully you will be Odysseus returning home at some point, victorious. So we'll see. Yeah, time will tell. Appreciate you, man. Thanks for sharing today.

• 1:54:11Speaker 01

  Appreciate you too. Thank you very much.

• 1:54:13Rich Roll?

  Peace.