AMA: Alex Pretti, Alex Honnold, Peter Attia, & Finding Hope In Dark Times

Roll On is here—and this one has teeth. Adam and I unpack the tale of two Alexes—Honnold and Pretti—and what that juxtaposition reveals about the best and worst of human nature. From there: a 9-month surgery milestone (30 lbs down, joy levels up), the Attia-Epstein fallout and the allure of proximity to power, and ICE's authoritarian overreach. Listener questions round us out: finding hope, perfectionism, escaping burnout, and the sacred practice of showing up for someone else. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://www.rivian.com Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain👉🏼https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll Birch: For 27% off ALL mattresses👉🏼https://www. BirchLiving.com/richroll Momentous: High-caliber human performance products for sleep, focus, longevity, and more. For listeners of the show, Momentous is offering up to 35% off your first order👉🏼https://www.livemomentous.com/richroll Go Brewing: Use the code Rich Roll for 15% OFF👉🏼https://www.gobrewing.com Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Rich Roll?

  Hey everybody, welcome to the podcast. We're back. It's time for Roll On. I'm sitting across from my brother from another mother, Alex. Alex? I got Alex on the brain. Let me start over. Hey, everybody. Roll On is back and it's coming right up. But first,

• 0:22Rich Roll?

  eating well rarely falls apart because of one big failure. It's the daily question that wears you down. Like, what am I actually gonna make tonight? What's in the fridge? And it's exactly why we built the Plant Power Meal Planner. It's a personalized, plant-based meal planning program that matches you with recipes based on your taste, your allergies, your cooking skills, and how much time you actually have. You build, through this program, a balanced nutrient-dense plan for your entire household in a few minutes. Then it generates a grocery list for you with one click that plugs right into our delivery partners. All the recipes in the program are built by dieticians with culinary training. Plus, you get your own

• 1:03Rich Roll?

  food coach to help you problem solve along the way. It's kind of an amazing thing. For listeners of the show, all you special people, we're offering an exclusive $20 off an annual subscription right now. To get it, go to meals.richroll.com, take your quick personalization quiz, and enter promo code RICHROLL20 at checkout.

• 1:28Rich Roll?

  Hey, everybody. Welcome to the podcast. We're back. It's Roll On time. I'm sitting across from my brother from another mother, Mr. Adam Skolnick, my international correspondent, as I've been calling you lately. Today, we're gonna talk a little bit about Alex Honnold. We're gonna talk what happened to Alex Preddy. We are going to discuss Peter Attia, and then surgery recovery. A bunch of people have been asking me about how that's going. And then, we're gonna answer some listener questions. But first and foremost, how you doing, Adam?

• 2:04Speaker 01

  Good, man. Great to be back. Good to be here with you. Yeah, we had a nice midwinter summer moment. That was lovely. Seems to be over now.

• 2:13Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well, the rest of the country is suffering.

• 2:17Speaker 01

  All right.

• 2:17Rich Roll?

  Under a deep, under a deep freeze. A little sensitivity.

• 2:20Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 2:20Rich Roll?

  Adam, not all of us are, you know, enjoying 80 plus degree Fahrenheit weather.

• 2:26Speaker 01

  Midwinter summer and I'm sorry it's gone. That's the wrong note to start.

• 2:30Rich Roll?

  If it makes anyone feel better, I spent like two out of the last three days in the car. Our youngest daughter, who is away in school, wanted to come home for the weekend. So five and a half hours driving to pick her up and bring her home. A day of spending time with her and then another five and a half hours in the car taking her back.

• 2:50Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 2:51Rich Roll?

  This is what you do when you're, when you're a parent.

• 2:53Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were, we were in the car. We had a little road trip the last weekend, too. I was in Sonoma. I did a book event in Sonoma.

• 3:01Rich Roll?

  How'd that go?

• 3:02Speaker 01

  It went well. It was fun. It was like at this ranch owned by a Politico, kind of California, old school Politico guy that had like 15 or 20 of his, of his people there.

• 3:14Rich Roll?

  That's cool.

• 3:15Speaker 01

  And so it was fun. And then, um, then we drove down, but we had a little malfunction with our electric vehicle and it wouldn't take fast charging. So we had to do like this sipper. So it ended up being the adventure we hadn't signed up for. But we, we took it Muir Woods, Monterey, San Luis. I just took like the slow, the slow march down and enjoyed this gorgeous, beautiful state of California.

• 3:38Rich Roll?

  Oh, that's nice, man.

• 3:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah. When you got the electric car, like it, it, uh, you know, you gotta plan accordingly around that if you're gonna be driving a, you know, a great distance.

• 3:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:49Rich Roll?

  Um, let's start with Alex Honnold.

• 3:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 3:53Rich Roll?

  We hosted, as many of you know, our first live event here in the studio this past week. And, uh, that went swimmingly, I think. It was super fun. We had Alex really just in one of his very first media appearances post Taipei Free Solo Send, which was just incredible to have him here and have him interacting with.

• 4:18Rich Roll?

  A group of people that we kind of handpicked to attend this event. It was really a business sort of thing. We had representatives from the brands that we work with. We had people from Netflix and Google and publicists and things like that. And it was really a test run to put this new facility that we've moved into to use to take advantage of this incredible theater where we're sitting right now, open it up to the public and begin tweaking this tried and true format of podcasting in a live environment. And I think it went really well. We learned a lot and it will be the first of many. And I think it puts us in

• 4:59Rich Roll?

  a position to do some really interesting things. While everyone else in this space is sort of chasing subscriber growth and how many people are listening or watching, we're really focusing on strengthening the depth of our connection with the audience. And I think live events are the future and the best way to do that. And big live events are great, but there's something about this space that's very intimate and I think lends itself to that like depth piece that I'm really excited about.

• 5:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, the best shows we've ever been to in our lives, thinking of music, aren't they the intimate venues?

• 5:36Rich Roll?

  Like the little club before the band broke.

• 5:39Speaker 01

  Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So it's cool to have that, that feel here. And obviously fun to see Alex and you guys just flow so well. So it's always good. You bring something out and I think that's different and it was, it was super fun.

• 5:51Rich Roll?

  Well, he's really game to go anywhere and he has such a grounded, calm disposition. Like there's no question that you could ask him that would like fluster him. You know what I mean? And I think what's underrated about Alex is his intelligence, his clarity of thought and his ability to so clearly articulate his perspective without any care about how it lands. Like he is not concerned with, you know, making sure he says the right thing. Like he's just like, this is how I see it, you know? To me, it's like this. And then he's like, Baffled if people like are like, oh, wow, you know, like, that's a different perspective. He's just like, well, that's who I am like he's unapologetically himself.

• 6:32Rich Roll?

  And I think there's something refreshing about that, but also inspiring. Like he doesn't equivocate, you know, he is authentically who he is. And obviously he's a very special person who can do, you know, incredible things that inspire us. But I think his demeanor is often overlooked as an essential piece in that kind of inspiring equation.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  No doubt. And, and, and the flip side of that is true as well. Like he doesn't care what other people say about him either. It doesn't affect him negatively.

• 7:04Rich Roll?

  He doesn't personalize any of it.

• 7:06Speaker 01

  No, he doesn't take nothing personally. Like I remember I was, when I was meeting with him, I had spoken with Tommy Caldwell and who had said, when he first heard about it, um, the, the skyscraper event, he considered it a media stunt. And then Alex subsequently kind of convinced him otherwise. But when I brought that up to Alex, he's like, well, you know, he didn't take it personally at all. He's like, Tommy can think whatever he wants. Like it doesn't bother him and it clearly wouldn't affect their friendship. And so it's like, it's interesting to see, like, I remember when, when New York Times first decided to kind of send me out there when they finally did it.

• 7:38Rich Roll?

  To go to Vegas.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  To go to Vegas. Yeah, that's what you had asked on the podcast. I didn't really answer it appropriately, what it was like to go out to Vegas and spend time with him. And one of the things that I remember was the editor really wanted to push on kind of, what's at risk for his family? And like, is that narcissistic? Is there something wrong with that? And you could, I could tell that my editor kind of felt like there was. And so he's like, you know, Alex gets enough praise. We need to push him. And I'm like, I just said really clearly, I said, it's not going to be a problem to push him. Like you could ask this guy anything. It's so rare, you know, that is so rare. Like I've, I've interviewed hundreds of people now of all walks of life, some really trying circumstances and some kind of people that get a lot of praise.

• 8:24Speaker 01

  And every single one of them, besides Alex, I need to be careful about what I bring up, something that could be touchy. I've never had that experience before where I knew going in, it didn't matter when or what I said, it wasn't going to be taken personally or cause a kind of a roadblock for further conversation. I just knew it ahead of time. And so I think that's exceptionally rare. And the other thing that I think I wish came across more. That people don't get, I mean, two things is that, first of all, he is a pillar of the rock climbing community out there. And when he was working out on that sport climbing route at Crystal Light Cave, it was him, it was a 67 year old professor of philosophies, the chair of the philosophy department at UNLV in just incredible shape named Bill.

• 9:09Speaker 01

  There was a woman whose husband is one of the best sport climbers in the world. I wish I could remember her name off head. I apologize. But she makes a living like putting up lights on the strip, like in, in high, like high angle cameraman, but with lighting. There was a jazz musician, a young guy whose father also climbs there with that, like Alex is now climbing with a second generation of climbers. And every one of them failed on what they were trying to do that day. They all were trying to send certain routes. Every one of them had different routes they were trying. And they all had their own partner. And they all failed, including Alex. And what was interesting is that rock climbing is really a study in failure, which when you put that up against what he's doing

• 9:50Speaker 01

  free solo where failing is not allowed, I think is really interesting. And I, I, I wish I'd brought that up because it's, it's something just to talk about for us all to contemplate. Like in this sport, while they fail because of full body failure, because they're climbing to their actual absolute max and their body just fails, like real, true, literal failure. And then he takes up something where failure is absolutely not allowed. It's just such an interesting second side of the sport, you know?

• 10:18Rich Roll?

  Just thinking about it makes my palms start sweating, you know? The other thing about Alex is that he's super funny.

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:25Rich Roll?

  If you can create an environment that allows him to relax, like his, his, the comedy side of him really comes to the surface and it's so enjoyable. And because I've had the good fortune of knowing him for a while and spending time with him and, and having interviewed him on this podcast, I don't know, probably like five times now or whatever. Like I, I know how to like, create that environment to allow him to, to kind of shine in, in his own, you know, very- Specific, unique, uh, specific way.

• 10:54Speaker 01

  Totally.

• 10:55Rich Roll?

  I mean, a little behind the scenes also, we have a ping pong table here at the studio. And so as soon as he arrived, it was like, he's obsessed with ping pong. He just went straight to the ping pong table. Alex got so into it that we were in a side conference room, kind of prepping for the event as people were starting to filter in. Alex came in, you were there, and he changed. He changed, he like, he like changed his outfit. So he got into like shorts and a tank top so that he could play better. And he went back out to play. And he played ping pong almost right up until the event started.

• 11:25Speaker 01

  He went Jennifer Hudson, ping pong with Greg, Rich Roll.

• 11:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And Kimmel the night, Kimmel the night before. And then today, I just saw a clip that Netflix posted where he's sitting on top of the Netflix building, like sitting on the, on the very edge. Do you see that?

• 11:39Speaker 01

  No.

• 11:40Rich Roll?

  Cause I think the day after our event, he went over to Netflix for a meeting and obviously they had him, they put him on the top of the building or whatever for the, for the big shot. Uh, but you know, quite a, quite a character. I, I do want to address one thing.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 11:55Rich Roll?

  Which is right after watching him do the Taipei climb, but before the live event, I posted a video on Instagram. It was just a spontaneous, like, hey, I'm going to whip out my phone and just share a few thoughts on what I just witnessed and kind of what I, what I got out of observing, uh, what Alex had just done. Uh, and it's really this tale of two Alexes. It's sort of insane that the matrix has wired it this way, that literally on the same day that Alex did this, you know, accomplished this breathtaking feat, that we have Alex Preddy, the other Alex, you know, being murdered by ICE.

• 12:36Rich Roll?

  On the one hand, we have what happened to Alex Preddy just being, you know, basically a demonstration of the worst of man's impulses, aggression, violence, this, you know, debased act of violence, uh, that is really, you know, emanates from this place of, of, you know, power, control and fear, right? Like this authoritarian overreach of ICE, uh, at the behest of an administration that is, you know, careening us more and more towards authoritarianism.

• 13:09Rich Roll?

  Basically, you know, expressing this overreach of power that ends up in tragedy and just inexcusable violence. And on the other hand, we have Alex Honnold and what he did was an expression of awe, wonder and possibility.

• 13:24Speaker 01

  You know, Alex Preddy was also fearless. And what he did was to step in into that into that situation was out of love and and a fearlessness as well. And so it's interesting, they're both kind of different angles on love and fearlessness. And, you know, in Taiwan, I woke up before dawn, wondering if there was going to be a climb because it had been raining for days. And the first thing I see is the headline. The first thing I saw that morning was Alex Preddy. And it was miserable, you know, like, that's how you wake up. You know, the only thing I would add on the Alex Preddy part is, you know, the city of Minneapolis is standing up. It's amazing to see. It's breathtaking to watch. It's, you know, Steph

• 14:06Speaker 01

  Curry was, the Warriors were playing the Timberwolves. And they got they got stuck there for days because they actually postponed one of the games. Because it was right after Alex, I think it was the same night that they were supposed to play. And he watched the demonstrations and was just overwhelmed with love. And he, that's what he had said. And it is amazing to see the city stand up. You know, we had, we were the first test city here in LA. And, you know, this debate of violence you're talking about, it's coming from the state. I mean, it that's, I think, what really upsets people and is really scary. It's not just random violence. It's state, it is state sponsored. And so, yeah, it's it's been terrifying. But to have both happen on the same day, like you said, it's like

• 14:50Speaker 01

  this cosmic, I mean, it's all there for our evolution, right? So, you know, where do we go from here? You know, what's, what do you, you know, where is this all lead?

• 15:02Rich Roll?

  Well, you know, lessons abound. I mean, first of all, not for nothing, you know, Mayor Jacob Fry, like, not mincing words, like, really, you know, refreshing as a politician to get up there and just, you know, plainly state what he's observing and what is actually happening. Like, that takes a lot of courage. So mad respect to him, friend of the pod, friend of, been on the podcast.

• 15:24Speaker 01

  Great runner.

• 15:24Rich Roll?

  And I think that There is a lot to be concerned about and there's a lot of pain out there right now. What happened is atrocious. It's worthy of talking about. It's worthy of address. You know, I do think that for someone like myself, who has a relatively large platform, that comes with a responsibility. And when you see overreaches of power, there is a call to action to speak truth to power. And so it's important for me to do that. But this is an instance in which, you know, clearly it needs to be said and certainly, you know, I'm not the only person saying this. Lots of people are saying this.

• 16:04Rich Roll?

  But just in terms of my perspective on this, it's pretty clear that this is a dire situation that we should be all very concerned about, this trajectory that our country is on right now. And yet, we can still celebrate Alex Honnold as this rallying point, who created this watercooler moment that brought us all together in this unifying experience that reminds us that we share more in common than the differences that divide us. And also, you know, to really take in his message of possibility and hopefulness, that if he could do something like that, we can certainly come together to share our, you know, common problems and move forward.

• 16:48Speaker 01

  Agreed.

• 16:48Rich Roll?

  Should we talk about Peter Attia?

• 16:50Speaker 01

  Oh, no. I was afraid you were gonna say that.

• 16:54Rich Roll?

  I mean, we have to talk about it.

• 16:55Speaker 01

  We gotta talk about it, man.

• 16:56Rich Roll?

  Peter Attia, longevity medicine specialist, podcaster, past guest of this podcast. I think it's not news to anybody at this point, because it's everywhere that he is implicated in the Epstein files. I think his name was mentioned over 1,000 times. And so all of this has come out, his correspondence with Jeffrey Epstein, his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. And, you know, I just want to state plainly how disappointing this is. I'm upset about it. I'm angry about it. It's unacceptable and it's incredibly disappointing to receive this news

• 17:40Rich Roll?

  as somebody who knows this person. And look, It's not that hard to refuse associating with a convicted pedophile. It just isn't. And I would have hoped that he was somebody who would have exercised better judgment back then. And really, that is all that needs to be said about this. You know, I have removed his podcast from our archive. I've taken down our social media posts that involve him. And it's just a bummer.

• 18:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's not that hard to not be in the Epstein files, you know? And if, if, if, uh, my only thing is, you know, my, I first kind of interfaced with him, like as a media personality, I never met him. But my first kind of taste of him was during, was during the COVID pandemic. And, and he was saying some things that were like, that I thought were really smart and thoughtful. And obviously he has that side of him too. But I didn't realize that whole time until this all came out and this reporting has come out. I didn't realize he wasn't a board certified physician. This is the first time I heard about that. So it does call into question, kind of for all of us to like, who are we getting our advice from? Where are we getting it? Are we sure this is sound advice?

• 18:56Speaker 01

  I'm not saying everything he said isn't good. I mean, he's obviously got something, you know, he's, he's done some good. But like, it does make us wonder, like, if I had known he wasn't a board certified physician, would I have been impressed with his COVID? Like, I don't know. And maybe that shouldn't matter, but like, cause I'm not, I'm not in the medical field. But hearing it now is kind of like, oh, wow, that too. And so when I, you know, I read his apology and I just, I was, I didn't fully buy it, to be quite honest with you. And, and so, um, yeah, I mean, nobody in the files claims to have seen anything bad. Right? They all, they all have the same, similar excuse. So, um, it's unfortunate.

• 19:37Rich Roll?

  To me, I think, okay, what is, is there a lesson that we can learn? Or what do we extract from this that we can reflect on? And, and when I, you know, think about this situation, I see it as a pretty classic case of someone who let the allure or the prospect of proximity to power and wealth and influence like warp. His moral compass. You know, this is somebody for whom that was important and Jeffrey Epstein was a vehicle to that. And because of that, he allowed this to justify overlooking glaring character flaws and, you know, appalling unlawful and ethically bankrupt behavior for the sake of, you know,

• 20:20Rich Roll?

  personal gain or personal eventual aggrandizement. So on that level, it is a morality tale that I think we could take to heart. And I think in the context of the health and wellbeing and fitness and nutrition, like kind of, you know, quote unquote influencer space, you know, whether it's fitness information or nutrition guidance or advice on longevity that you're seeking out, you know, there's a lot of different people on the internet who are saying lots of things. Some of them are giving good advice and some of them are sociopathic grifters. And I think, you know, we're all, you know, well advised to kind of calibrate our credulity monitors a little bit.

• 21:03Rich Roll?

  And I say that for myself as well. Like, you know, how can I up level my vetting before having somebody on this show? You know, I think is one message that I'm taking for myself. And, you know, I think Brad Stilberg said it best when he said, you know, you don't, you don't need to be a low integrity asshole to be serious about performance. You can be a good person too. And I think there are good people out there doing good work. So yeah, it's left me reflecting upon how I move forward through this, how I message my audience, how I make decisions about who I'm going to, you know, engage in conversation

• 21:43Rich Roll?

  across the table here and my own vulnerabilities to credulity, you know, like, you know, I think that's worthy of investigation on my part. I'm as vulnerable as anybody to being manipulated by charismatic individuals. And so I'm checking myself on that and in doing my own inventory on this, especially as it pertains to folks in the longevity space, because I think there's a lot of nonsense out there right now. A lot of people who are out over their skis.

• 22:14Rich Roll?

  Who are communicating perhaps in unearned degree of certainty regarding their advice and their counsel.

• 22:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, we're all vulnerable to it because we, it's just is like inherent. When you see somebody with a lot of followers and that we think that that they've been vetted. You know what I mean? We think that's a vetting. It's like a default thing where our brain just turns off a certain skepticism that often happens. Now, maybe we're, we're more, we've seen it enough to where we, we have a little bit more skepticism, but certainly when social media was first popping, it became, oh, wow, that look, I want to listen to this doctor. And then, you know, so I think we're all vulnerable to it. And I don't know what, if there's an answer, like, you know, we can't, we can't fully know, right? We can't fully know. And some of this stuff gets revealed

• 23:07Speaker 01

  over the arc of someone's career. And he's certainly not alone in, in somebody showing up in those files that we are shocked by. He's not. And so, and he's not the worst offender. And so, by a long shot. So it's just this crazy cascade. But like you said, it's a lesson for us all to like, you know, the more certain you are of your beliefs tends to be like, the real scientists are never sure their beliefs. You know what I mean? And so that's something that I think we should all take to heart is like, is like, we shouldn't be so sure of basically almost anything now, you know, unless it's like a law of physics. At some point, we have to leave some space for us to know that what

• 23:50Speaker 01

  we're hearing isn't 100% true. And the person who's telling it to us is someone to take with a little more skepticism.

• 23:57Rich Roll?

  Well said.

• 24:06Rich Roll?

  All right, let's move on. A lot of people are asking me about how my recovery from my spinal fusion surgery is going. So just really quickly, I just eclipsed nine months. The surgery was May 8th, where now we're recording this on February, what is it, the 9th today, the 10th? So a couple of days past nine months. At six months, I got the green light to start a very, very low key, modest exercise routine. And I've sort of built on that very gradually. So. For context, in mid-November, I had ballooned up to 207 pounds, which is a lot for me. That's almost as much as I weighed pre kind of life transformation at 40.

• 24:51Rich Roll?

  I think I was like 210, 215 around that time. Right. And what was amazing is how much it snuck up on me. Like, I didn't even realize I was gaining weight. Obviously, I wasn't being physically active. And I had the big beard and like the whole thing. And I was walking and I knew I was like getting out of shape and getting a little puffy or whatever. But then I bought one of those body composition scales like to celebrate like six months. And I was like, oh, now I'm gonna like really hold myself accountable and get on track. And it was kind of shocking to realize how much weight I'd gained. But I've lost 30 pounds of it. I'm down to like 177 now and kind of stabilized there.

• 25:31Rich Roll?

  My weight is remaining the same, but my body fat percentage is going down and my lean muscle mass is going up while I stay at this same weight, which feels really good. So basically, just been on the indoor bike trainer, alternating that with days of functional fitness, like light lifting, you know, kind of like dynamic exercises in this little home gym that I have. And that's been working good and it feels really good to like reconnect with my physical body and remember like, oh, this is what I loved about this. Because there was a moment there where, you know, I'm working on this book and I'm walking around the house in a bathrobe with this big beard. I looked in the mirror, I was like, what are you gonna be Julian Schnabel now?

• 26:16Rich Roll?

  Like, what is going on? You know, it's like Your Malibu Grand Pub off. You still have some youth in you, you know? Like, you don't have to descend into like, you know, the pot-bellied, you know, like writer guy. So, anyway, nice to know that I can still drop a little bit of weight and How'd you do it? I mean, I just got really rigorous with my With my nutrition, I basically just got really binary with it. Like I, I basically eat the same thing every day. Like I eat a, a big bowl of black beans. That's it. Uh, and then this salad that I get at Air One, it's called the, the, I think it's called the Thai tofu salad. So it's just like tofu, lettuce, um, a bunch of veggies in it, carrots and stuff like that.

• 27:01Rich Roll?

  And, uh, and so I'm just, I'm modestly calorie restricting.

• 27:05Speaker 01

  But not noting it, not noting it down.

• 27:06Rich Roll?

  And the main thing is like, I cut out like all bread and pasta, like any kind of, any kind of like refined grains. Like that's a big one. And I cut out like late night snacking and eating. And just like by adhering to that and not, and keeping things really simple, um, just progressively it's, it's been working, which is good. So I'm starting to feel a little bit of vitality come back into my body. I still have a long way to go. Like I have, you know, tightness and discomfort in my lower back. Like the fusion doesn't fully set for 12 to 18 months. So I have to be very careful. And so even as I start to get a little bit more fit, I have to hold myself back. And because I'm writing this book, I have these other rules around my gym time. So I, I generally wake up at like three 45 or four in the morning and I just get a cup of coffee. I go right into

• 27:51Rich Roll?

  the gym and I restrict my workout to one hour because I've got to get to the page, you know, or I've got to prep for the day's podcast. Cause left to my own devices, I'll just be in the gym for hours, but a lot of it is me like on my phone or something like that. So I leave my phone out of the gym. I set a timer and I go in there and I hold myself to that so that,

• 28:12Rich Roll?

  I'm not overextending myself and I still have like good energy when I go right into like focused, deep work mode after that. And it's been fun. It's required a tremendous amount of patience, but it's also allowed me to focus on A, the gratitude of being able to do this again after not being able to do it, which has brought a lot more joy into it. I think in the past, a big part of my relationship with fitness has been so focused on performance goals or, you know, trying to achieve something so that I can be perceived in a certain way. And that has

• 28:51Rich Roll?

  Created at times, a bit of an unhealthy or less joyous experience of it. I still love it, but not always doing it for the right reasons. And I'm really focused on doing it for the nourishing aspects of it because I love it. Not necessarily because it's tied to some kind of performance goal. I need those goals to progress my way forward, but I'm not so tied to them in like an identity defining way as I have been in the past, which, which allows me to kind of have a more relaxed relationship with it. That has been new, different, fun, and hopefully demonstrates some level of like personal growth on my part.

• 29:35Speaker 01

  I think so.

• 29:36Rich Roll?

  And this opportunity, I've said this before, to rebuild my body from the ground up, like what a gift, like, okay, you have to start over from zero. You got to wipe the slate clean, tabula rasa. What would you do if you had to relearn like how to hold your body position upright, your posture? What is, what is proper walking form look like? You know, forget about running, like, what does it mean to, you know, do a standing lunge with perfect technique? And because I'm not in a rush and because I'm so limited in what I'm allowed to do right now, it's allowed me to really hone in and focus on those little details to

• 30:18Rich Roll?

  build very slowly this brand new foundation that hopefully, you know, will be very sturdy for longevity reasons, like going down the line, you know, like building on top of something that's very stable, rather than just like, let's just start running again, you know, forget about like warming up or like all the things that I've done, all the mistakes that I've made in the past that you can get away with when you're younger that I no longer can afford. But that, like all things, opens the door to possibility and opportunities. And so like, okay, let's do it right for once, you know, and, and see what happens that way. And that's been a fun kind of like construction project.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  You know, it's so funny. I can relate to so much of that. I was joking last year with you, not on the air, that like that your back, that your back injury was contagious, because I had the craziest injury year last year, and not to bore, not to bore the audience with my little injuries, but I had so many different things. Some's more significant than others. And this year, I'm doing the same thing. Like, I was trying to reach a certain goal with like, weights towards the end of last year. Now, I'm just gonna do the lightest weights where I can feel my actual shoulders working, where I could feel the right muscle working for the right exercise. I'm rebuilding. Like, now I look at my low back, my herniated disc flare up, and I think of it as like, a great wake-up call to finally

• 31:37Speaker 01

  get my upper back going, so that I'm holding myself appropriately. I can finally swim, feeling my actual shoulders working, not the joint. Like, I was putting all the pressure on my joint, and so I wasn't swimming correctly for like, my entire life. And so, I can relate to so much of that. And that seems like to be the, kind of, the call for us as we can, if we want to continue to stay active, you know, as we get older and older. Like, it's interesting. It's hard to do that. You have to be forced to do that. And like, I was forced to do it. Now, this year, I'm looking at, this year, I'm not making any fitness goals. I just want to be able to, you know, stay contained and build on this, and just

• 32:18Speaker 01

  get, like, start doing light stuff and, and modest advancement over the course of the year, and hopefully just stay healthy, like, is my goal now. And it's, but, you're right. When you take the pressure off it, it gives you more time to work, and it gives you more time to just enjoy the actual process of it.

• 32:34Rich Roll?

  Hundred percent.

• 32:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:42Rich Roll?

  Let's turn to some listener questions.

• 32:44Speaker 01

  Okay. These are questions, you put the call out on Instagram, and these are some that came back.

• 32:50Rich Roll?

  Awesome.

• 32:51Speaker 01

  First listener question. When all hope seems to be lost, what is the constant reminder or quote you keep telling yourself?

• 32:58Rich Roll?

  I mean, that's a, that's a dark space. If you're in that headspace where, where you feel like all hope seems to be lost, that's a dark hole. It's hard to, it's hard to dig yourself out of it. And there's no platitude that's gonna snap you out of it.

• 33:14Rich Roll?

  But when I found myself in those darker moments, there are a couple, I think, hopefully helpful things that I can share about how to process that experience, think about it, and slowly claw your way out. And the first is, and all of this, I should say upfront, like almost all of it, germinates from my experience in recovery, in the recovery community, which is a community that has no shortage of quips and phrases and, you know, bumper sticker, you know, sentences for situations like this. Not the least of which is, "This too shall pass." You know, basically, it's like-

• 33:56Speaker 01

  That's an AA aphorism?

• 33:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, I don't know if AA invented it, but it's one that gets bandied around in the rooms quite frequently, which is essentially a reminder that no matter what you're experiencing, like, you will not be stuck there, no matter what. Even if you do nothing and just sit in it, it will pass, because everything is always in flux at all times. And we have this irrational perception of permanence in our lives. Like, we just think we are who we are, and we're gonna look the way we look, and our lives are gonna be the same, you know, forevermore. And that's not how subatomic particles work. That's not how the universe works.

• 34:41Rich Roll?

  There is nothing in the universe, from the largest stars and solar systems and galaxies, all the way down to, you know, subatomic particles that is ever static. Everything is always in motion constantly. And so whatever you're experiencing, it will change. And within that, I think there is room to then understand, if that's true, then there is always the possibility for hope. No matter how far down you have fallen, like, there is always the possibility for hope and a way to see yourself through it. And so-

• 35:22Rich Roll?

  When I think about this conundrum, again, I'm always thinking like, what is the growth opportunity or what is the learning opportunity of this particular dark moment or hardship that I'm experiencing? And it's sort of convenient to say this, but I do believe it's true. Everything that happens to you, especially these negative things, is designed, bespoke for your growth and evolution and can be this really powerful change agent if you decide it to be. So when you're in the muck, generally, it's because you have participated on some level in creating the muck.

• 36:05Rich Roll?

  And these situations are always beckoning you to look at something about yourself that you'd rather not. At least, that's how it's always been for me. And so the question then becomes, like, if there's a reminder or another kind of like phrase to turn to, it's, how did I, you know, help create this situation? What is my part in giving rise to the situation that I'm in right now? Because the job is to understand the behavior that led you to this place, to own that, and then to make amends for how it impacted others, another big AA thing, how it impacted others negatively, and then to figure out how to change your behavior, modify it going forward

• 36:48Rich Roll?

  to figure out a more, you know, positive response to a particular stimulus or set of circumstances, or way in which you respond or react to, you know, something that happens in your life. So boiling this down to the 12 steps, it maps on pretty seamlessly. Like, step four is the inventory. This is where you're really doing a thorough and fearless kind of objective forensic analysis of your behavior. Like, how do I, how did I get here? Well, you know, this is how I behave in these situations, getting really honest with yourself. Step nine is the amends. Well, this behavior, you know, created all this chaos and harmed these other people in this way, I need to make that right.

• 37:33Rich Roll?

  It's not an apology. Like, how can I serve these other individuals and modify my behavior so, A, I don't behave this way again, and I can do whatever I can do to kind of undo whatever harm that I created? And then step 10 is the daily inventory. Like, this is a daily practice. So that- You're in the habit of this analysis amends and kind of, you know, honest accounting of your behavior in advance of finding yourself in these like relatively dark holes or hopeless spots so that you can kind of course correct before they become too dire. And beyond that, like I'm sympathetic to anybody who's, who's in that, you know,

• 38:16Rich Roll?

  situation or state of affairs. I've been there myself. And if you're in it again, like these words are probably not going to be that helpful because when you're in it, there's a, there's, there's a sense of paralysis. We've talked about this, Adam, like when things are so hard, when somebody says, well, you just have to do this one thing or this other thing, like you just, you just can't, like you can't summon the will to do it.

• 38:40Speaker 01

  Right.

• 38:42Rich Roll?

  So when you're in that state, like when you, or you, or you're in a situation where you just don't know what the next right thing is for you to do to claw your way out of it. My go-to reflex, it's always the same, is pretty simple. You just reach out and help somebody else, even if you feel like you're at your lowest moment, to pick up the phone, call somebody you know who's having a hard time. It just has to be something simple. It doesn't have to be a big dramatic overture. Because, and the reason for this is that it is the antidote to self-obsession. It will take you out of your like frame of mind

• 39:23Rich Roll?

  that is so focused on your problem and your world. And by investing yourself in somebody else's, it's not only curative, like it's like this, it's, it's like this salve, like suddenly you're not obsessing on yourself and your problem, like that in and of itself ameliorates the pain of whatever situation you're navigating at the time. And because self-obsession is really the default stance when you are being dismantled. So if your life's falling apart, everything's going to shit or whatever, you're going to stew in it and just be thinking about yourself all the time and how you're going to solve this problem and how terrible it is and why it's unfair and all of these things, none of which are helpful.

• 40:06Rich Roll?

  Even when you don't know what the next step is to rebuild or reassemble these pieces that are now kind of splayed out in your fractured life, just by investing yourself in somebody else cures you of that self obsession. It allows your unconscious mind to work on that problem and it lowers the anxiety and the fear impulse and all of these other psychological defense mechanisms that actually aren't serving to help you or to solve the problem.

• 40:40Speaker 01

  And it's incredibly inspiring. I mean, it's like two things you said there that I can relate to. The first, you said, "This too shall pass." I remember when I was going through my divorce, it was kind of like my midlife crisis. It was very painful and I felt I was wronged and I felt humiliated and I felt all the things. And because this was a marriage that hadn't even been a year, you know, so I felt like all this kind of unraveling.

• 41:07Rich Roll?

  I've been there.

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, exactly. And it just felt like all things unraveling. And I was at dinner with a friend and my friend Bruce kind of looked at me and he goes, "You know, in 10 years, this whole thing's going to be a blip, just a blip." And it felt like such, I felt like I was under a boulder and the idea of it being a pebble, like I was like, "Yeah, sure dude, you might say that." But, and he was 100% right, you know, like it's been over 10 years now and it was a blip, but man, was it heavy at the time, you know, like, and now I consider it a total blip and I don't, even though like I guess the what happened hasn't changed, my relationship to it has changed to the point where I don't

• 41:48Speaker 01

  feel victimized at all. And so it's like my entire perception has shifted. So it's not just that the incident is smaller, it's that my understanding of it is completely morphed through time. And so like, it's not just that it passes, it's like your relationship to the events completely changed. And that's hard to remember while it's painful, it's very hard and most people can't and it doesn't really matter. You just have to survive the day. But I think that that really resonates. And then in terms of service.

• 42:21Speaker 01

  I meant years ago, I was down at the border doing some stories. And this was at the time where asylum cases were in like Mexico and waiting. And so they were like, this was, I think it was Nagales. It was outside Tucson. I was down at the border and I went to this one place that offered one meal a day to all the asylum cases. And so for many of them, that was their only meal they were going to eat that day. But it was being, you know, Tucson volunteers were coming to serve it. So it was like gringos from north of the border were coming to put the meals out. And then it was all migrants from all over the world that happened to come through that were waiting on the southern border. And of all the people lined up, there was one guy that was out there sweeping the sidewalk in the street.

• 43:05Speaker 01

  And he wasn't just waiting in line. He was sweeping the sidewalk in the street. This is in Mexico, sweeping the street. And he was a Honduran immigrant whose family was in the United States now. And Honduras at that time was falling apart. It was like a narco state. We know that, right? It's been famously detailed and it was extremely unsafe. And it was basically a failed, almost a failed state. And so that's why a lot of Hondurans were coming here. And so he was there and he was basically, he couldn't do anything. He couldn't work in Mexico. He didn't have money. He was in this line for the handout lunch, but he was sweeping the sidewalk in the street. And then when we went in, he wasn't just waiting to be served. He was wiping down the tables.

• 43:48Speaker 01

  He was, he was, he wasn't just sitting there and taking the meal. He wanted to be a part of it. And then when it came time to say a prayer, guess who spoke up? And it's just so interesting because I'll never forget that. It was extremely inspiring. I remember talking to other people about it. It was always inspiring. Everybody I talked to, it's extremely inspiring. And it's a great example of the service idea of someone who is in a situation he could not control. And so he chose to be an active participant. It's hard to do, man. One person out of the whole group that I saw do that. It's not easy, what you're saying is not easy. But if you can pull it off, there's so much power in it. It's so inspiring. It's a beautiful story. Yeah. Cool.

• 44:32Speaker 01

  All right, let's do the, let's do. Next one. For those who are all or nothing, is a middle ground possible in health and nutrition? No, it's impossible.

• 44:44Speaker 01

  Sorry.

• 44:45Rich Roll?

  Either you're just all in or completely out.

• 44:50Speaker 01

  What about me makes you think all or nothing? I am like the least all or nothing person ever.

• 44:55Rich Roll?

  I am an all or nothing person, but you know, I've grown a little bit. I would say that I'm evidence of somebody who is slowly getting used to not being an all, all or nothing personality.

• 45:09Speaker 01

  You've been all and you've been nothing a couple of different times.

• 45:12Rich Roll?

  You go, you go back and forth, you know? You take the high with the low.

• 45:16Speaker 01

  Pendulum.

• 45:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's exciting.

• 45:21Rich Roll?

  You know, that's the thing when you get sober and you're like, well, everything's just kind of like the curve, the curve gets flattened.

• 45:27Speaker 01

  Right.

• 45:27Rich Roll?

  And you're like, yeah, it's all boring.

• 45:29Speaker 01

  You're like Ray Liotta at the end of Goodfellas.

• 45:31Rich Roll?

  It's like, you know, I'll take those lows for the highs and you know, all of that. So, you know, I get that. I'm, you know, I am as prone to extremes as anybody. For those of you who relate to that, you know, that not only is it, like I said, like exciting, like it's dopaminergic, you know, it's, it's very energizing. It's a, it's a productive form of energy that drives life results. There's no question about it. But like all superpowers, they have their kryptonite. And I think for the all, the all in kind of personality, it can be quite destructive. If you don't check it, at the very best, it's going to lead you in the direction of burnout.

• 46:16Rich Roll?

  But you know, it can also be completely ruinous because it runs roughshod over everything else in your life. So if you are an extreme personality, congratulations. It is, it is something that you can leverage for good, you know? And it can be a very powerful animating life force that can, you know, drive you to achieve great things. But it has to be properly harnessed and deployed in strategic doses that.

• 46:46Rich Roll?

  Make room for recovery, room to nourish yourself and to make sure that you are attending to the other things in your life that are important, because if you don't do that, your whole life is going to implode ultimately. Like, there is this dark side of the extreme personality archetype. And I think what's also instructive, or perhaps hopefully valuable, is trying to understand what is beneath that archetype. Like, what is driving that proclivity to just go all out, like, pedal with the metal, like, all the time? And if you really

• 47:27Rich Roll?

  deconstruct it, it's generally being driven by an imposter syndrome, a profound sense of unworthiness, low self-esteem, this, like, deep-seated need to, like, prove yourself, to earn acceptance or love. Because without it, or without what it gets you, you are, like, and I know this, I'm saying this personally, like, there's a sense of not deserving love. Like, you have to earn it. You have to go out and do these things, and, like, ply your extreme personality trait to achieve things, to, you know, show the world and prove to yourself that you are, you know, worthy of breathing air and deserving of

• 48:12Rich Roll?

  being, you know, accepted and loved by other people. And so, obviously, that's a sort of broken psychological state. Essentially, what I'm saying is that a lot of extreme behavior is being driven or underscored by fear. And I think, once you realize this, it becomes incumbent upon you to try to figure out how to understand that impulse within yourself at first, learning how to, like, channel it at the right time and quell it when it's leading your life astray. But ultimately, the job is to figure out how you're going to heal it. And that's scary, because it's like asking somebody... To, uh, you know, shirk their superpower like, hey, this superpower, this thing that

• 48:54Rich Roll?

  you're so attached to that, um, you've crafted an entire identity around like, I'm the all in person. I go hard and I got, you know, I go all day or I can outwork everybody in the room. This gets intertwined into your identity and then the prospect of like letting it go or just entangling yourself from it feels like a threat. You know, like you're not going to want to do that. Right? Because if you don't have that, then you're not going to be able to like, achieve your goals or pursue your dreams. So.

• 49:24Speaker 01

  And beyond that, it's like, it also gets into your, how you view yourself when you look in the mirror.

• 49:30Rich Roll?

  Right. Yeah. Who am I if I'm not the person who does that, you know, who operates this way? Um, and that's a threat, but you know, this is a process that I would say that I'm in. And I think there's liberation on the other side of that, you know, the, because once you realize like, hey, you know, maybe you're not an imposter, or maybe you're not uh, completely, you know, useless or unlovable. You know, there's, there's a, there's a self-love, you know, loving kindness, kind of compassion, um, that, that will lead to, you know, becoming a healthier, more, uh, more fully actualized, you know, human being. And it also requires that you deconstruct this perfectionism myth, you know, I think if you're striving to these

• 50:15Rich Roll?

  extremes, you are wed on some level to this idea that, you know, perhaps you can be perfect or there is this perfection that you're, that you're chasing. And that's a recipe for unhappiness. Like you're never going to achieve that. You're setting yourself up for, uh, a life of frustration and discontent. Um, I was listening, uh, when I was on my long drive the other day to, uh, a podcast with, uh, David Senna's podcast who, who hosts the founders podcast. And he was like, he's such, he's so good at podcasting and he's, he's kind of obsessed with the people who are the best in the world at something. And he was reviewing Andre Agassi's memoir, Open. Uh, and he does such a great job of like,

• 51:00Rich Roll?

  kind of deconstructing, uh, like these life lessons out of this book, uh, Senna does. Uh, but there's this part in that incredible memoir where Andre Agassi is.

• 51:13Rich Roll?

  You know, losing all the time and he's miserable. He hates tennis. But he brings Brad Gilbert into the equation to become his coach. Yeah. And Brad's the guy who's like, you've got to let go of this perfectionism. You go out onto the court and every shot you want it to be like the perfect shot. You're trying to be perfect in every volley in there. He's like, you don't have to be perfect. You just have to beat this guy and you're so much better than this guy. If you would just release that attachment to perfectionism and just hit the ball and play tennis, you're going to win like almost every time. And it wasn't until he could kind of grok that and, and really release his relationship with perfectionism, that he was able to begin, um, not only winning again, but enjoying tennis.

• 51:58Rich Roll?

  And this becomes a big piece in his equation for curing himself of his dissatisfaction with life. And then of course, service becomes this huge piece. Like, you know, he, he realizes that that's really the only thing that's important that gives his life meaning, which goes back to the importance of just abusing ourselves of our self obsession, um, through simple acts of service to other people. But I just thought that was so interesting that somebody who was so good at what he does, the best in the world, Andre Agassi, is in this process of constant self-flagellation. And I think a lot of extreme personality tendencies emanate from that place. Like, I have to go harder than everyone else and prove, you know, to others and to myself that I can do this thing.

• 52:44Rich Roll?

  Because, and it's, it's, it's almost a martyrdom practice. It is a, it is a, um, it is a means of self-flagellation that ultimately becomes, uh, unhealthy. And fundamentally on the identity piece, it's just a story. Right. I'm the guy who like works there. I'm the guy who does the, I know this is who I am or whatever. And It's not real, you know, you've just decided that it's real and you have the power to rewrite that narrative. And I'm not saying it's easy because I'm, like I said, like I'm kind of in this process right now. So I'll keep you posted.

• 53:22Speaker 01

  Which is interesting because like you're very generous to, I mean, like you don't, you don't expect that kind of all or nothing from the people that you work with. You don't expect it from your kids. You're not like that to anybody but yourself, right? Like, and that also is, I think, a hallmark for this all or nothing thing. Most of it is just inwardly projected, not necessarily outward. I guess it can be, but like, and so I just find that I just wanted to flag that for you. What do you think of that?

• 53:53Rich Roll?

  No, I don't expect, I don't, I don't layer that template on anyone else and expect them to, you know, kind of pursue things, you know, in the way that I do or have, you know, like, I don't think it's the, you know, a great way. Like I was with, I was with Malcolm Gladwell a couple of weeks ago and, and we're talking and he looks at me and he goes, the thing about you is you always have to do it the hard way.

• 54:18Speaker 01

  He says that to you?

• 54:19Rich Roll?

  Yeah, he goes, you always have to make it the hardest thing, you know, it's like, you know, the diet and the ultra, like all the, and the swimming and the, you know, like, it's like, why are you making it all so hard? And I was like, I don't know. It's a pretty good, that's a good question.

• 54:32Speaker 01

  I can't help it. So then, so then you don't have to be all or nothing. What's the, if you could just give one or two pieces of advice, how do you find the middle? How do you orient towards the middle? What would be your, your advice there?

• 54:46Rich Roll?

  I think just giving yourself permission to not be perfect and to not self-flagellate for falling short of some imagined standard that you're setting for yourself, that you have invested, you know, the stakes of your identity in, and just being a little bit more gentle with yourself. And I think this surgery recovery process has been really nourishing and instructive in this process for me because. I'm not under any illusion that I'm trying to get back to becoming the person I was before, the athlete, or whoever it is. I'm interested in who I can become as a

• 55:26Rich Roll?

  as a as a direct result of being forced to sit still and like marinate in my inadequacies and find a way to have compassion for myself and figure out a way forward that is nourishing, but detached from identity stakes. You know what I mean? And so finding that middle ground is about giving yourself permission with compassion to not have to live up to some imaginary standard because your self-worth is is on the line.

• 56:03Speaker 01

  The only thing I'd add to that is the conception of self can also change. And if you think of yourself, not just this contained being born here, living there, doing this, not doing that. If you think of it more in an expansive way, is that I am energy here on earth. And if you start to go into mindfulness, if you start to get into meditation, even if you sit for five minutes a day in a beautiful place on a park bench or in your house, five or 10 minutes a day, you start to to that can start to be untangled.

• 56:41Speaker 01

  And then really, what you are is how you is is more than just your self-contained personality. It's more than what you like and don't like. It's more than what you want to do, what you've done and haven't done. It's so much bigger. And so if we can connect, and which you've talked about so many times, if you can connect to that higher consciousness also at the same time, then you'll find all the rest of it is almost miniscule, and you can feel more relaxed in in in staying in this middle balanced place. It's it's it can really recharge your life in an entirely different way.

• 57:20Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And like, whatever you're going through is unlikely to be something that gets brought up at your memorial after you pass for perspective.

• 57:30Speaker 01

  Unless you're climbing Taipei 101, then it might come up.

• 57:33Rich Roll?

  Maybe, maybe. Yeah, that's an exception. All right. One more question.

• 57:36Speaker 01

  All right. Best advice to change a 37-year career that has you burned out? That's a tailor-made, rich role question.

• 57:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's a little tricky because it's unclear whether this career was something that was unfulfilling all along, or whether it was fulfilling, but now after 37 years, this person is burned out. So with that in mind, it's difficult to know which thread to pull on here. I mean, listen, there's a couple of things you can do. I mean, you can quit. You can. I don't know the circumstances of this person's life, but life is short. And if you are that burned out and that unhappy, that is always a possibility. I'm not saying it's easy. I'm not even saying it's the right thing for you to do or rational. And we all have responsibilities and mouths to feed and bills to pay and all the like. So

• 58:28Rich Roll?

  I don't say that cavalierly. In most instances, that is not the solution. My best suggestion is to invest in your curiosity. You can stay in this career without quitting it. Perhaps you can ameliorate the burnout or find meaning in other aspects of your life that serves as a buffer for whatever you're experiencing in your career. So this is not to say just, well, quit your job and go pursue your passion. But I think for those that are feeling a lack of direction or a little bit of confusion as to what to do next at a certain stage

• 59:08Rich Roll?

  of life, my go-to default move is always to pivot to curiosity. Where does your curiosity naturally gravitate towards? And not judging it, but making the choice to follow it without judging it. Like, oh, maybe it's something you always wanted to do that you never gave yourself permission to do. It could be a simple, fun, little hobby that you spend a half an hour a week on or something like that. But I think saying yes to that, once you start developing the muscle memory and the habit of that yes, and really carving time out of your day to, whether it's journal or some other kind of mindfulness practice,

• 59:49Rich Roll?

  to really hone your attention on your curiosity and take inventory of what it's trying to tell you or where it's trying to lead you, and honoring that as a sacred practice, that will... Leads you to other opportunities and other opportunities from that and so on and so on to create a domino effect that will eventually, almost guaranteed, set you on a trajectory that will lead you to someplace where you're going to find some kind of meaning. Maybe it's a job. It's not necessarily a new job or a new career, but something that will provide your life with the meaning that your career is not able to do for you.

• 1:00:31Rich Roll?

  And it's really as simple as that, I think. I think the other point, and we were discussing this question before the podcast, is if it is a situation in which you've been in this career for 37 years and you've never liked it. Right. Like, not for nothing, like, maybe we need to have a conversation about your relationship with healthy confrontation. Like, how have you allowed yourself to stay in a situation for nearly four decades that was not nourishing to you? And again, there's real-life circumstances that come into play here. Like, sometimes you suck it up and you do this thing that you don't really like doing because you're responsible for other people, and I'm not, so I'm not dismissing that in any way. But I think there is something

• 1:01:17Rich Roll?

  to be learned by reflecting on that question a little bit. Like, what is it inside of you that made it okay for you to live a gigantic chunk of your life in a substandard situation that was, that left you burned out and feeling more empty than perhaps you thought you would after spending 37 years doing a certain thing? Yeah. Healthy confrontation. And what can you do to adjust that or address that? And how can you overcome whatever personality default trait or kind of reflexive decision-making strategy that you have that landed you there? And that goes back to kind of the step four inventory.

• 1:02:00Rich Roll?

  Like, you need to inventory your decision-making, your behavior, your avoidant tendencies, all of these things that contribute to create, over time, contribute to creating this life that you're experiencing now.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  That's interesting. Healthy confrontation. I never heard that phrase before. I have a problem with basically all confrontation, healthy and unhealthy. So I feel if this person is there, I get it. I've been able to like, figure out a way to live a life that is meaningful and kind of self-actualized regardless of that somehow.

• 1:02:32Rich Roll?

  While dodging confrontation all along.

• 1:02:35Speaker 01

  I think it's because I know how to build rapport. And so my rapport, my building of rapport has allowed me to dodge the confrontation.

• 1:02:45Rich Roll?

  You're a political animal.

• 1:02:46Speaker 01

  Is that what it is?

• 1:02:47Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:47Speaker 01

  I don't know if I'm revealing too much here. I think that's very well said. The curiosity piece is always like.

• 1:02:54Rich Roll?

  Well, that comes into play here as well.

• 1:02:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:56Rich Roll?

  Getting curious about, you know, what led you to this place and getting curious about what, you know, another chapter might look like for you.

• 1:03:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. And then also just being curious about something you always wanted to follow. Either, however you ended up here, that also helps.

• 1:03:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah. The big piece here, and it's not unrelated to the service idea, is trying to find something that is bigger than yourself, you know, and this often gets couched in like a mission, like what's your mission? You know, it's like Scott Harrison, he's gonna like, solve the global water, clean water crisis. Like, you know, there's, there's grand visions like that, but it doesn't have to be that big. It just has to be about something that is contributive beyond like your personal aggrandizement. So I can't just be like, I need, I need more money. I need a bigger salary or I need a corner office or something like that. It's like, what are you actually doing with your limited time on earth that

• 1:03:54Rich Roll?

  is additive in a way that is benefiting, you know, a cause, other people, or something else that is larger than your personal concerns in your life?

• 1:04:06Speaker 01

  Yeah. Beautiful stuff, because if you could find that, or even if it's just like you always wanted to play guitar and you never allowed yourself to do it, and you pick it up, and you spend 15 minutes a day doing it, it's like, that love can just inspire where the burnout had left you. You know, it can fill that burnout space.

• 1:04:23Rich Roll?

  Even if it just makes you happy, then you're a happier person, and then your interactions with other people are better. And then that sets in motion, you know, a series of chain reaction of events that, you know, is very gradually, but, you know, most certainly moving your life in a different and better direction.

• 1:04:42Speaker 01

  Hundred percent.

• 1:04:43Rich Roll?

  All right, we did it. That's it for Roll On today.

• 1:04:46Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:04:46Rich Roll?

  We're done, dude.

• 1:04:47Speaker 01

  That's it, okay.

• 1:04:48Rich Roll?

  I promised we would land this plane under 90 minutes.

• 1:04:51Speaker 01

  We got there?

• 1:04:52Rich Roll?

  We got it.

• 1:04:52Speaker 01

  All right.

• 1:04:53Rich Roll?

  We'll be back soon with more. Thank you, my friend.

• 1:04:56Speaker 01

  Thanks, man. Good to be here.

• 1:04:58Rich Roll?

  Cheers. Peace.

• 1:05:02Rich Roll?

  That's it for today. Thank you for listening. I truly hope you enjoyed the conversation. To learn more about today's guests, including links and resources related to everything discussed today, visit the episode page at richroll.com, where you can find the entire podcast archive, my books, Finding Ultra, Voicing Change, and The Plant Power Way. If you'd like to support the podcast, the easiest and most impactful thing you can do is to subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts, on Spotify, and on YouTube, and leave a review and/or a comment. And sharing the show or your favorite episode with friends or on social media is, of course, awesome and very helpful. This show just wouldn't be possible

• 1:05:43Rich Roll?

  without the help of our amazing sponsors, who keep this podcast running wild and free. To check out all their amazing offers, head to richroll.com/sponsors. And finally, for podcast updates, special offers on books, and other subjects, please subscribe to our newsletter, which you can find on the footer of any page at richroll.com. Today's show was produced and engineered by Jason Camiolo. The video edition of the podcast was created by Blake Curtis and Morgan McRae, with assistance from our creative director, Dan Drake. Content management by Shana Savoy, copywriting by Ben Pryor. And of course, our theme music was created, all the way back in 2012, by Tyler Pyatt, Trapper Pyatt,

• 1:06:28Rich Roll?

  and Harry Mathis. Appreciate the love, love the support. See you back here soon. Peace. What's Namaste