From Drinking Every Morning to Running 340 Miles: Tommie Runz on Recovery, Running & Redemption

Tommie Runz is a runner, sobriety advocate, and co-host of the PR Project. This conversation explores addiction and redemption through Tommie's insistence that sobriety comes first and everything else is downstream. We discuss his backstory, the denial and the delusion of functional drinking, the moment he told the truth, nine years sober, ultrarunning as a spiritual practice, who belongs on the trail, and more. Tommie is a beautiful representation of a real runner. Enjoy! Show notes + MORE Watch on YouTube Newsletter Sign-Up Today’s Sponsors: WHOOP: Join now and get one month free👉🏼https://www.join.whoop.com/Roll Squarespace: Use code RichRoll to save 10% off your first order of a website or domain👉🏼https://www.squarespace.com/RichRoll Rivian: Electric vehicles that keep the world adventurous forever👉🏼https://stories.rivian.com/richroll Freaks of Nature: Save 20% with code RICHROLL👉🏼https://www.freaksofnature.com Check out all of the amazing discounts from our Sponsors👉🏼https://www.richroll.com/sponsors Find out more about Voicing Change Media at https://www.voicingchange.media and follow us @voicingchange Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Rich Roll?

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• 1:04Speaker 01

  I don't know when the morning drinking started, but that was a standard. And I'm just like, I'm gonna die like this. Like, this is how I die.

• 1:11Rich Roll?

  He's sober. He's an accomplished runner. He's making a positive impact on the world. Prepare to be inspired, because today you're gonna hear the experience, strength, and hope of Tommy Runs.

• 1:22Speaker 01

  Seventeen years old, senior year, I think it was, ran out of the classroom and then like passed out. All of a sudden, I'm drinking every day for two weeks.

• 1:30Rich Roll?

  That's like the most accelerated case of alcoholism I've ever heard.

• 1:34Speaker 01

  Well, you know, the story hasn't even finished yet.

• 1:40Speaker 01

  The meetings saved my life. There wouldn't be any running if I didn't get sober. I did Osaka Marathon seven days before Tokyo. Six or seven marathons in a year. The Speed Project from LA to Las Vegas, 340 miles. How do you continue? And how do you make that decision for yourself, even though like everything's telling you to stop?

• 1:59Rich Roll?

  So how do you do that?

• 2:06Rich Roll?

  All right, Tommy, before we even get into it, Dan over here dug into the archives, and I want to share something with you.

• 2:15Speaker 02

  Hello, Rich Roll Podcast. This is Tommy Runs. I think it's important to mention that I'm a young black guy from Detroit area. Went sober, then went vegan, then started running. And sober, vegan runner is enormously synonymous with like the black community. So it was just so much different for me to be going down this road. And I was kind of like on my own with it. You know, the veganism is just not a thing in the black community for real. I mean, it's getting better now for sure. But at the time, like, I didn't know anybody that was vegan, that's black, or that was in my circle or even close to my circle. So I was just kind of on my own, looking for material and information. Found Finding Ultra. And it just spoke so much like to me.

• 2:59Speaker 02

  I've been in AA and went through the program. Loved the program. The program helped me so much in so many ways that, I mean, I just, I feel like I'm indebted to those people in those rooms and those tables. So hearing that Rich went through the same process in so many different ways, from a different side of the world to me. But then also felt like all the same feelings and all the same, like, just troubles, you know? It just made me feel at home reading the book. And then so I started watching the show. And it seems like every time that I was trying to make a new, like, direction in my life, the podcast had a guest on it that was perfect for that moment, perfect for the past, the moments that just passed that I needed to get over. Or someone that was inspiring me to move on to the next step and kind of reach forward.

• 3:42Speaker 02

  My journey went from desperate to thriving with running, veganism. Now I have a running company. I have my own little personal brand on Instagram. Now I'm working with companies. I've been able to interview, I have a podcast. I've been able to interview some of the people that have ended up on your show as well to help people just kind of navigate through these things and through these times. And I super appreciate how much time you spent on talking about the black community and the issues in 2020 that arose and came back to the forefront. So I appreciate you, Tommy Runs. Thanks, Rich. Namaste.

• 4:18Rich Roll?

  So that was 2021?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 4:22Rich Roll?

  So like five, five, six years ago. I had forgotten about that, and Dan unearthed it. And it was so fun to listen to that today.

• 4:31Speaker 01

  I happily forgot about that.

• 4:35Rich Roll?

  So how does that make you feel, hearing that now? Like, so many years down the line from where you were at that moment?

• 4:41Speaker 01

  Um, it makes it feel like sitting here feels surreal, because I know how much, um, I know like what role that book and your podcast and the beginning of My Sobriety and Running, I just know how much it all meant to me to like see somebody thriving and working. Because before sobriety, I just didn't know, like, what life was on the other side of that and like who I would be. So to get into it and be curious about like self-improvement and all that stuff, to catch all that, you know, catch your content and your story at that time, it was like a big deal for me. So I was really happy to be able to like have a moment to record my thoughts and like send it to you, you know, whether you use it or not.

• 5:25Speaker 01

  So it's like surreal for me to be sitting here. And I guess I'm proud of me then. Like, it makes me feel kind of proud, like it's kind of cringey hearing it. But it's, I'm proud that like I'm still finding out, like still like trying to find out who I am in this journey, but then also like trying to help people along the way.

• 5:44Rich Roll?

  I'm very moved listening to that and knowing you now. You're paying it forward, like this is what we do. You know, this is what we learn in the rooms. Like, you hear the experience, strength, and hope. You put it into practice in your own life. And then you turn your head around, you put your head on a swivel, and then you pay it forward for somebody else. And this is just an example of that. And I think this journey that you've been on is so beautiful. You know, we first met at the running event. How many, what year was that?

• 6:14Speaker 01

  2021.

• 6:15Rich Roll?

  2021. So maybe it was, was that after or before?

• 6:18Speaker 01

  I think it was after.

• 6:19Rich Roll?

  It had to have been after, right?

• 6:21Speaker 01

  It was after.

• 6:21Rich Roll?

  We were introduced by our mutual friend, Russell Nadal. Shout out, Russell.

• 6:26Speaker 01

  Shout out, Russell.

• 6:26Rich Roll?

  Thanks for making the introduction. And I've been able to kind of watch from afar as you really embraced sharing your story, your story of addiction and redemption and your running journey. And it just continues to blossom. And it feels like you're really hitting your stride right now. And you're connecting with people. You're out at all the races. You're creating content. And you're inspiring all kinds of people, particularly, you know, communities that are unfamiliar with this world that you are now like very much a part of.

• 7:03Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 7:03Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Let's do a little walk into the past. I want to take it all the way back to, you know, growing up in Detroit or just outside Detroit.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  Yeah. Um, all right, so when I was one year old, I was like, um,

• 7:18Rich Roll?

  It's far back. It's, you know, we're gonna do what it was like, what happened, and what it's like now.

• 7:23Speaker 01

  Okay, okay, cool. Yeah, so like I grew up, I was born in New York, and my mother and father separated when I was five. So then we moved back to Detroit. My whole mom's side of the family's from Detroit. And like, my mom was just like single mother. Kind of like from that point on, my dad passed away when I was eight years old. He died of a stroke at 39 years old.

• 7:48Rich Roll?

  And you're 41 now?

• 7:50Speaker 01

  About to be 42 now.

• 7:51Rich Roll?

  About to be 42.

• 7:51Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like my 39th year was like, I was, I was in my head so crazy, you know?

• 7:57Rich Roll?

  By the way, you look like you're like 26.

• 7:59Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 8:00Rich Roll?

  Crazy. You're like ageless. It's insane.

• 8:02Speaker 01

  I heard some, like some saying, like black don't crack or whatever. But I grew up without him, you know? And my mom did such a great job of like really hustling and trying to make everything work for me and my sister, you know? Like, and it was really like a great place to be, you know, to grow up, because there's just so much diversity in some of those schools. But at the same time, like, I felt lost, you know? Like, and I'm not sure if it was, you know, probably because my dad passed and I didn't have like, I'm the third, so I have the same name as him. You know, and I just always was like trying to chase this or thought of chasing this person that I didn't really know, that like people spoke so highly of. Like, it wasn't like, oh, your dad was cool or whatever.

• 8:47Speaker 01

  It's like the people that talked about him, it made me feel like I could never be that.

• 8:53Rich Roll?

  You're a kid growing up confused, not feeling great about yourself. Like, what was your kind of journey through like junior high school and the early years of high school? Like, who are you hanging out with? Like, what kind of kids? Like, where did you fit in?

• 9:09Speaker 01

  I was not like the cool kids. And I wasn't like, like,

• 9:13Rich Roll?

  That's crazy, because you're so fucking cool.

• 9:15Speaker 01

  It took a long time.

• 9:16Rich Roll?

  I was like, I need some fashion advice, but go ahead.

• 9:19Speaker 01

  You're doing good. You're doing good. I like this. I like this whole look.

• 9:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I thought a lot about this. I was like, Tommy's coming in. I gotta like, I gotta, I gotta take this seriously.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  One thing I wish I could do is grow a beard. And you know, every time you grow a beard.

• 9:30Rich Roll?

  I saw your video about that. You, it'll, well, yeah, I guess you're, well, I guess you're 40, you're 42.

• 9:35Speaker 01

  Are you about to gaslight? My beard is gonna come in.

• 9:38Rich Roll?

  So for those that don't know, like, you can see it on Tommy's Instagram. He did a video where, where he's like, I wish I could grow a beard. So you had AI, you had AI mock you up with a beard. And I was like, oh, you look like Denzel Washington's son in Tenet. Like, it's pretty badass. Yeah, like, it looked pretty good. Yeah, so you're like, I'm gonna go to Turkey and get hair transplants on my face.

• 9:57Speaker 01

  I'm traumatized at this point now.

• 9:59Rich Roll?

  But like, you got so much on top of your head.

• 10:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 10:01Rich Roll?

  Going on, you know? You get one or the other, I think, you know?

• 10:05Speaker 01

  I guess. I feel like there's people with both, but whatever, you know?

• 10:10Rich Roll?

  We can't have everything, Tommy.

• 10:11Speaker 01

  You really can't. But yeah, so like, I don't even know what was the question?

• 10:16Rich Roll?

  I don't know either. What, you weren't with the cool kids? Like, who were you? Who was your hang?

• 10:21Speaker 01

  Yeah, so like, I was kind of like, I was, I was like in the middle. Like, I was trying to, I was like kind of watching the cool kids do their cool kid things, you know, like, because we just didn't have like, you know, the school I grew up in, cool meant you had all the nice stuff. You know, you had all the, you had the iceberg, you know, sweaters and the whatever jeans. And that was the vibe. And, and if you didn't have that, you were just kind of like, had to watch it happen. So like, I was friends with all of them, but I was just like on the outside, because I just wasn't that cool, you know, like to them, because of like what I wore. But I was always, everybody knew me, I knew them. And I just felt like I was just kind of meandering through this like, you know, middle school, high school experience. It was like watching what I wanted to be, which...

• 11:04Speaker 01

  Like just kinda like tore me up a bit because like I was friends with all of them, but I just wasn't, I didn't feel like I was okay or cool enough to come like walk to like the, you know, the heaters that they used to sit on like in the hallway in the school, you know? And it was, it was like strange, but I've always had like a few friends. I've never been the person that had like 20 friends at a time, which is kinda counter like what I was, what I wanted. I wanted all of them to be my friend. But in reality, like I'm the type of person that has like two, three friends that I rock with and hopefully till like death do us part type of vibe. And so like middle school and high school was like a weird thing for me. Like I was, I wasn't great at school. I didn't like homework.

• 11:49Speaker 01

  I could pass any test that you give me, uh, just by, because I was in the class. Like I could figure it out on the test day, but I never really like applied myself like just ever, um, at that point. And maybe it was because I was trying to not look like I was trying hard, but it just left me in this like limbo of like, are we trying to do this life or not? And if, if I can't be as cool as them, then maybe I don't want to try. Um, but I started golfing in, in like eighth grade or something like that, which was definitely also different at that time, but that was like the Tiger Woods era. So it was okay enough, but that kinda gave me some like purpose through, through high school, which was like, make sure my grades are good enough to content, to play.

• 12:31Speaker 01

  And I was like pretty decent, but I was also still pretty short at that point. And so it just didn't allow me to like, like flourish in the way that I thought I wanted to, but it kinda gave me purpose to kinda connect those years of making sure I didn't like flunk out of school.

• 12:45Rich Roll?

  So no track and field, no cross country, no basketball, no running, golf.

• 12:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like, so like all the sports that I played were just all like neighborhood stuff. Like we had a bunch of kids in our neighborhood and we play every sport like possible. If somebody watched a movie about football, we're playing football the next day for sure. But so I've, I've always been athletic, but I, I'd never, I didn't play any like high school, um, sports, except for on the golf team.

• 13:09Rich Roll?

  So when does drinking enter the picture?

• 13:12Speaker 01

  Drinking enters, um, in the hallway. Um, 17 years old, senior year, I think it was. Um, and my friend brought like these little nips, you know, little bottles. Uh, he like got them from his mom or something like that, or stole them from his mom. And he's like, you want some? I'm like, sure. So the first drink I took, it was like all of a sudden I didn't care about what I thought everybody else thought. It was like the moment of like fake clarity, like, oh my God, I can, I don't care anymore. I can be myself. And then once people start realizing I was drinking, cause then I just went from those couple of little nips to like trying to find out like next day, like how can I drink more of this stuff? Do you have more? And then I found out ways to try to get some of my own.

• 13:56Speaker 01

  So I went from not drinking at all, really, um, having a family of, in, you know, my dad's side of the family is a drinking family.

• 14:05Speaker 01

  Or at least that's what my, my, my view of it.

• 14:09Speaker 01

  To like, all of a sudden I'm drinking every day for two weeks.

• 14:12Rich Roll?

  Just like that?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  Just like that.

• 14:13Rich Roll?

  Like a light switch got flipped.

• 14:14Speaker 01

  Yeah, like it was like, I mean, it was like fast friends. Like I need tomorrow, like, or today, I need this like now, like, cause if I can walk into school and not like think that everybody's looking at me weird, cause whatever, then that's what I want.

• 14:28Rich Roll?

  Did it go immediately to drinking like before going into school, like in the morning? Or was it just like looking forward to after?

• 14:36Speaker 01

  No, no, it was in school.

• 14:37Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 14:37Speaker 01

  It was in school, I needed it in school in my head.

• 14:39Rich Roll?

  Right away.

• 14:39Speaker 01

  Yeah, like right away, like so.

• 14:41Rich Roll?

  That's like the most accelerated case of alcoholism I think I've ever heard.

• 14:45Speaker 01

  Well, you know, the story hasn't even, the story hasn't even finished yet. So like two weeks into the drinking thing, um, this is the first time I've said this, uh, on, on microphone before, so this is funny. Um, so the first, into two, two weeks into drinking, there was a pep rally day and I had gotten whatever liquor that I thought I needed or whatever. And I drank so much, cause like even in that first two weeks, people realized like I had a drink up on me. So they would be like wanting to drink to all the cool kids, oh, let me take a sip, let me take a sip. So like, then all of a sudden I needed to have extra, you know? And then, so I'm drinking throughout this whole day, this pep rally day, it's only a half day. By the time like before the pep rally, it was only like two hours into school.

• 15:28Speaker 01

  Like I wake up and I'm on the floor in the bathroom, passed out with my mom, my principal and like the security liaison like standing over me. Cause I had like ran out of the classroom and then like passed out. And that was two weeks into my alcoholic like journey.

• 15:50Rich Roll?

  Wow, that's wild.

• 15:52Speaker 01

  Like I tell that like, cause it's probably my mom's probably like, you did not have to tell that story, but it's just like, it just, that just shows like how powerful like alcoholism, alcoholism is because like in any other scenario, that happens to you that fast into this thing, you're scared straight. You know, you're scared away, like I, I can't, obviously that's not for me. I can't handle it. But what I did was like slowly like, okay, well, if I can't drink liquor right away, cause I just can't even smell it, cause it's just too, it's, it's just sends me off. Maybe I'll just drink some beer like as I got back into it. So like slowly like weaned myself back into it, cause I just needed to have like that feeling again.

• 16:26Rich Roll?

  Yeah, a normal person would be appalled and say, yeah, no more of that for me. But the reason that it happened is because you're not that guy. Like from the first drink, you're like, oh, this is the solution to all my problems.

• 16:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:39Rich Roll?

  This just makes me finally feel comfortable in my own skin. And you begin to realize like how uncomfortable you've been all along, as if all the cool kids had this operating manual for life and they're all walking around feeling great about themselves. And, and now you've discovered this elixir of life that allows you to feel the way that you assume everyone else feels all the time.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Yeah, it was a cure to, to like the pain that I felt like I was going through every single day.

• 17:06Rich Roll?

  And that's the thing that gets missed, I think, too often in discussions around alcoholism and recovery, like it works. That's why you're doing it. You know, it is a solution to a problem. It's not the problem. The problem is, you know, you feeling uncomfortable in your own skin and why that's the case, right? And until you heal that or find a solution for that, uh, you're going to continue to drink.

• 17:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:36Rich Roll?

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• 20:28Rich Roll?

  That's such a extreme kind of episode where, you know, even a young person is gonna know immediately. Like, this is like, like, my, my thing with this drinking is different than my classmates.

• 20:43Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 20:44Rich Roll?

  Not that you're gonna do anything about it, but you're like, you, you make a mental note of it.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  I knew I was an alcoholic.

• 20:49Rich Roll?

  Like, you don't wanna be the guy who's passing out, so you realize, like, I gotta reel it in, but I gotta find a way to be able to continue doing this.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, you had to, it's like, okay, lesson learned, instead of, you know, lesson learned, here's how I can do this better, you know, and B, I don't wanna be that extreme, cuz that's, that's abnormal as well, I'm not gonna fit into the cool kids if I'm laying in the bathroom floor, but how do I, like, how do I weave this into my life in a way that can allow me to be functional? And I think that, like, the functional alcoholic, the term, that's the most dangerous term that is thrown around, like, in society to me, because that's the issue, cuz you, if you're, if you have a job, if you're moving forward, if you're going to school, doing the things, you're, you're not on the side of the road, you know, drunk all, all day, you feel like you're normal in some way, and then you, it just lets you just pass time and continue to just,

• 21:38Speaker 01

  like, make these decisions, or tear your life apart, or tear your health apart.

• 21:41Rich Roll?

  Well, the word functional is the wrong word, like, you're operating dysfunctionally.

• 21:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 21:46Rich Roll?

  But you're not so dysfunctional, uh, that anybody is gonna kind of force you to stop doing what you're doing, you can get by, but you're operating at, like, such a suboptimal level.

• 21:57Speaker 01

  I mean, but you think you're crushing it.

• 21:59Rich Roll?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 21:59Speaker 01

  You really think you're crushing it.

• 22:00Rich Roll?

  Well, that's part of the denial and the delusion, like, nobody knows what I'm doing, they don't, you know, like, I'm getting away with this, and, and then as it accelerates, then you have to start with all the lying and the hiding and all of that, but what was, what was the conversation with moms that night after passing out on, in, in the bathroom of high school? She couldn't have been too happy.

• 22:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I don't even know, I think, um, you know, this was in, this was in, like, early 2000s, so like, um, parents putting their hands on, on kids was kinda, was okay at that point, and I was like 17, so I think she, like, punched me when I got in the car, uh, like, maybe in the chest or something like that, but, like, she never, like, she wasn't a physical person like that, um, but I just knew, like, really, her, the look, she's always, she has this, like, look that she's, like, a lot of, like, a lot of parents have, but it's this look that just, like, tore me up, and I, I just felt so embarrassed and, like, ashamed, and felt like I, like, I, um, like, disrespected her and, and disrespected my family, and the thing was, like, I had a, the one thing I remember about that day

• 23:01Speaker 01

  is, like, I had a job at that point, and I had, I was supposed to go to work, like, later on that day, and she made me go to work, but she wasn't gonna take me, so, like, I had to call my grandma to come take me to work, she knew the whole situation, and she's like this, if you, like, I hope you get to meet her, um, she's like this, really, like, you know, quiet, so kind, everybody, if you meet her, everybody's just gonna be, like, they're just, everybody loathe my grandma, just automatic, cuz she's just so kind, supportive, and attentive, and you feel like she's, like, looking into your soul as you talk to her, as she talks to you, and so she got in, she, I got in her car quiet, cuz I'm trying to

• 23:42Speaker 01

  figure, like, how to not be drunk right now, and we're driving to this, this place out in, like, the suburbs, and she, like, right before I got out, she, like, looked at me, and, like, the first word she said was, or the only word she said in the car was, like, "Don't let them see you like this," like, to me, that meant, just, it was just so much, cuz I was just walking into this building with, you know, at that time, it was, it was a golf store, and it was just, it's just gonna be all white people, and I'm just looking a mess, so she's like, "Just pull yourself together, and don't ever let anybody see you like this," and I wish I took, like, the meaning of that, like, right away, and, and, maybe just went a different direction, but, you know, the, the addiction one in that,

• 24:24Speaker 01

  in that case, but that's what I remember from that day, and once I finally, like, came to terms with, like, my sobriety, and started going on that walk, I knew more, like, what she, what she meant, and, um, and I kinda tried to chase that, that, like, redemption of that, of that moment, you know, like, throughout my life, you know?

• 24:42Rich Roll?

  With that rapid of an acceleration, uh, it seems like, uh, it would be difficult for you to sustain any kind of relationship with alcohol for very long, but that was, what year, 2000?

• 24:56Speaker 01

  That was 2002.

• 24:57Rich Roll?

  2002, you get sober in 2017, so you got a good 15-year run after that.

• 25:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, good is, is a strange word.

• 25:07Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 25:09Speaker 01

  Yeah, from, so from that point, like, I got back into it just a little more tame, I thought I was being, and like I said, I eased back into it, and I just knew my, I kinda learned my limit, you know, I thought I learned my limit at that point, like, I'll never, I'll never be that drunk in public ever again, I'll never drink that much in a short period of time ever again, like, I set these parameters without, like, without knowing it, and it just allowed me to get to the point of, you know, "Okay, I need to go home," and I would just go home.

• 25:39Rich Roll?

  And you were able to do that.

• 25:40Speaker 01

  I was able to do that, but then a lot of, but that also led me to, like, this really isolated life, you know, you had family and stuff like that, but I still was, like, I would just be at home drinking, I wasn't, I wasn't the type of drunk, a drunker, drinker that, like, would wanna be outside, and at the bars and stuff like that, like that.

• 25:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, you're taking your grandma's advice, it doesn't, you're, you're, you're not interpreting it as "Stop drinking, just don't let anyone see you doing it."

• 26:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, so, like, and if you're in my house, yeah, it is what it is, like, you know, so that was my, my, my thing, was just, like, kinda hiding, hiding it as much as I could, and then just never being in a car, um, you know, absolutely just trashed, or just, I just didn't wanna be around people, like, I was very alone to myself, like, drunk, and that's, it was just part of, I wake up every morning and finish whatever I didn't, you know, the day before.

• 26:29Rich Roll?

  So the morning drinking started pretty early?

• 26:32Speaker 01

  Um, I don't know when the morning drinking started, but it was, you know, definitely around, like, 2000, like, 12 or 13, like, that was standard, you know, and that was, you know, I just pulled from so many different, like, dumb inspirations, like, it was a dude that I, I remember being around, like, cuz after I graduated, I went down this whole, like, street, like, rabbit hole, where I just knew that I wanted to be out there, or outside like that, and as a dude I knew that was, like, he would drink every day before he'd go out, you know, into the world, because, I mean, he was living a much different lifestyle, but he just felt like he needed to have, like, an edge when he went outside, and I'm like, "Well, I'm going to work inside, but I could, I could still use this, like, little

• 27:17Speaker 01

  edge," so I was just using all these little random moments to validate, like, how I was, like, moving through my life, and, but I just, you know, like they said, like, there's, like, three phases of it, it's fun in the beginning, in the middle, you're just kinda maintaining, and at the end, it's just, like, absolute torture, cuz you, there's no chance of, of stopping this, this, like, train that's just, is constantly rolling, and, like, every time that I would try to, like, stop, I would try to stop for, like, a week, and I couldn't make it a day, and so every time I'd wake up in the morning and drink, or every time that I would fail on these, like, little, small, little stents of, of sobriety, or, like, dried Januaries, it just felt like every day, like, I was losing, I wake up every

• 28:01Speaker 01

  day and take an L, and it felt so out of control, not because I was just, like, walking around the street stumbling around, but I was just, had, had no control over my next, like, 20 minutes.

• 28:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah, every time that happens, it's, it's like another deposit in the, uh, hopelessness, desperation, uh, piggy bank.

• 28:25Speaker 01

  Desp, desperation was, was like, if I could have bought, like, two weeks of sobriety, with every dollar I had at any point, I would have, just to say that I did it.

• 28:36Rich Roll?

  Did you know anybody that was sober, or that didn't drink, or you were just, it was like, lower companion situation?

• 28:44Speaker 01

  No, no, I mean, I, I knew people that drank normal, like, regular, like, people that would drink once every week, or something like that, and they could control it, when you'd leave somebody's house, like, you'd buy a bottle, and you'd take it to their house to have a party, and you come back two weeks later, and that same bottle's there, like, those people drove me crazy, like, "How did you not drink this while I was gone?"

• 29:03Rich Roll?

  But no adult in your, like, orbit, who was like, "Yeah, I'm an AA person,"

• 29:07Speaker 01

  No, no AA was involved.

• 29:09Rich Roll?

  No one's checking in on you like that.

• 29:10Speaker 01

  Like, cuz even the people, like, in my, people in my family, like, um, on my mom's side, that didn't drink, they drank every now and then, but it was no, like, no intentional, you know, "I go to AA," AA was, was a movie thing for me, um, that's the only time I saw it, and it was never really depicted in, like, this light of, like, "You should check it out."

• 29:30Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 29:31Speaker 01

  That wasn't an option, for me.

• 29:33Rich Roll?

  You worked for many years, uh, at a auto transport company, right? Like, now you're full-time running influencer, racer dude, uh, but you had a pretty good job for a long time, like, you kind of worked your way up the ranks to, like, a VP level, I guess, right? Is that a job that you started, like, right out of high school, or, or, you know, like, how did you find your way there, and then how were you, uh, kind of, uh, getting promoted at your job while balancing this secret life as a morning-drinking alcoholic?

• 30:04Speaker 01

  Functional, bro. Uh, no, it was...

• 30:08Rich Roll?

  Cuz they, they must have, on some level, there's no way, you had to just smell that.

• 30:12Speaker 01

  I asked him, after I got sober, I was like, "Did you?" And he was like, "No, I didn't." As I'm, he had to be lying to make me feel good, I don't know, but, so I started working for them in 2007, so, like, from the, like, graduating high school to 2007, there's, like, this, like, little area where I, like, I jumped into, like, I guess, like, street life, um, in a way, and I, I found myself going directly in this path of, of, like, self, like, actual self-destruction, and, like, gambling, like, my freedom and life, like, every day, outside of drinking.

• 30:50Rich Roll?

  What are we talking about here, like, selling drugs, or?

• 30:53Speaker 01

  Um, so I knew people that, I knew people that did, and I was around people that did, um, and, like, I dabbled in it here and there, but I was much more like the younger dude around, like, people that were, like, 10, 15 years older than me, and they were just doing really well, and I met them through, through a girl that I knew at the time, and next thing you know, like, cuz I, I, I grew up glorifying like that.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  I guess the cars and the money and stuff like that, but it was really more of like that masculine, like I have it figured out energy and, and that confident energy that I felt like I didn't have. Like, so I watched all these movies and it's like, yo, that's the guy that I, that I think I should be like, you know, I should be like running this or having, you know, money and doing what I want to do. And so like all of a sudden to like run into some people like this, they were, they were everything that I thought I wanted to be, which was, you know, confident, took care of their families. Um, and people knew them, you know, and in hindsight, it was a very dangerous like decision for me to be like, all right, what y'all need and let's, let's work and let me help and let

• 32:01Speaker 01

  me, you know, make some money on the side here, do all these things. Like it was, it was a, um, a big risk, but like, I actually like, thank God that, that I met them and not like a different set of people. Cause it wasn't like, I guess hand to hand, like it wasn't like I was like standing on the corner somewhere. Yeah. Like it was much different than that and a little safer, but probably higher, the amount of years that potentially you could get if you got caught doing something would probably be a little, uh, little crazy. But it was, I'm just happy I met them because they, they kept, they were, had kept me farther away, far away from that daily energy as possible. But then they also like strangely

• 32:41Speaker 01

  had, even though I had looked at the drug dealing part of it as yo, this is who I want to be because they're drug dealers. It was really who I wanted to be because they were, a lot of these guys are people that are just trying to take care of their families.

• 32:55Rich Roll?

  Yeah. They look like they're thriving.

• 32:57Speaker 01

  They look like they're thriving, but then a lot, at least in the generation that I grew up in and looked up to, they had morals and likes and, and, and to us, to an extent, and had like a code amongst themselves, like how they would carry themselves in the world and how they would take care of them, their families. Like, you know, this is all a roundabout story to get to like 2007, but when my, my kid's mom had our daughter, uh, in 2007, in 2007, I needed to get, I needed to make a change. I couldn't be in the house I was in and have her in the house with a baby. So we moved to this other house and I didn't

• 33:36Speaker 01

  see a dad directly with, with children until I saw these guys handle their kids. And so like for two, three years, I, I acted, I treated my daughter how they treated their, their little girls. And I would say the same things to my daughter eventually that they were saying to their kids. And they like taught me how to be like a, a father and like a man to, uh, to kids and a man to a woman, you know? And so it's like a blessing, but it was, it's a weird, it's a dark moment in my life, but it was also this blessing that I ran to these people in general. But so like to fast forward to 2007.

• 34:15Rich Roll?

  But before you go there, I mean, I think the point that stands out to me in, in what you just shared is that these things are not black and white. It's in the same way that we were characterizing alcohol as a solution to a problem. You know, you could look at this community of people and now in retrospect realize like, that was a bad decision. That was a potentially dangerous environment for me. I'm grateful I got out of it, but they were fulfilling a need. Like they were solving a problem for you by being a mentor in a certain kind of way that you needed and lacked and didn't have in your, in your upbringing.

• 34:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. And I'm like super thankful for, you know, to them and for them. I'm, I'm not really in communication with them that much at all anymore, but like they, they kind of gave me the blueprint of like how I can move in the world and how I can thrive in the world. You know, I just got to replace, you know, you know, from drugs to something different. But like, how do you carry yourself through these business interactions? And how do you, uh, like stand tall, I guess on your, on your, what you believe is true and right? And how do you move forward with that? Like with some sense of confidence and build. Um, so like that was just, that was definitely a blessing. So.

• 35:27Rich Roll?

  You have kids all of a sudden.

• 35:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:29Rich Roll?

  How old are you?

• 35:30Speaker 01

  I'm 40, oh, at the time 23, 23.

• 35:33Rich Roll?

  23 in 2007. So I imagine that's a, that, that was a catalyst or kind of a, a, a recognition like, hey, like I gotta like figure my shit out a little bit.

• 35:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like, um, so I started like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get a job now. Cause like I can't, I don't want to see, be like the movies, just doing one more little thing for a couple of dollars here and then all of a sudden like you're in prison. So I'm like, all right, let me get a job. And I was, I, I said no to using like some of the cars that I had access to before, cause I just didn't want to have to be pulled in that direction. So I'm like, no, I'm good. Or, you know, and I was paying for a cab just to get back and forth to this church that I got a job at. There was the church that my mom like, like kind of grew me up in and like for my, like my high school years. And so I'm working at this church and also sort of trying to play that lifestyle of trying to make money every now and then if I could. But it was just like this hard

• 36:24Speaker 01

  thing to go from like having everything that I needed and making really good money to all of a sudden trying to raise another person and figure like this, like life out. And it was just, my mom came to visit and she, cause she was living in Massachusetts at the time and she came to visit for a few days and I was just trying to hold it together like as much as I could and act like this, like $20 that I had was like enough. And she like saw it, didn't say too much. Her and my grandma came and picked me up and took me to like Target or something like that to buy a bunch of stuff. And they're like, oh, we just want to help you with like a home, a home warming type of gift. And she called me like a month or so after visiting and was like, I see that you're, I don't

• 37:07Speaker 01

  know what you're doing or what you were doing. I see that you're trying to make a difference or a change in your life and you're trying to take care of this little girl. Um, if you want, you could come to Massachusetts, live with me and you know, you can bring, you know, you can bring Iris, her mom, you can bring her too. And you guys can start over if you want. And she's like, it's different. It's Newburyport, Massachusetts. It's like, it's as white as you can get, you know? And I'm like, uh, let me talk to her and see what she says. And she said, yes, like within like first conversation, she's like, yeah, sure. Let's get out of here. Cause she, everybody saw me like that cared, I guess about me, saw me trying to figure this thing out and not like resort to what I thought was the

• 37:52Speaker 01

  easiest way to make money at that mo, at that point. And so I moved, um, my mom, the gosh, my mom was like really close friends with, came, picked me up on September 10th, 2007, and we drove from, you know, through Canada, um, to go to Massachusetts. Uh, all my stuff was in the back of a pickup truck and we just like started this life over. And I started working at like a, a donut shop for seven days. And then the eighth day I started at, at Lowe's, like home, home improvement.

• 38:24Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 38:25Speaker 01

  Worked there for two months. And while I was working there, I got hired at Reload Trans Auto Relocation for, um, at the entry level position. Like I was in the money I was making was like kind of laughable, like, but it was definitely my first desk job. And I started at the lowest position you could get. And just over those years, I, I just kept kind of climbing and kind of instilling like what I saw my mom and my sister and my grandma do in their lives, which is just like, keep going forward and figure it out.

• 38:54Rich Roll?

  So how many years were you in Massachusetts before you moved back to Detroit?

• 38:58Speaker 01

  I moved back to Detroit, I think in like 2014.

• 39:01Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow. So.

• 39:02Speaker 01

  So I was there for like.

• 39:03Rich Roll?

  Seven years.

• 39:03Speaker 01

  Yeah. So like a six or seven years I was out there. And in that, in that time, like I, I, I stopped working for Reload Trans in 2025. And in that time I went from the person that just talks on the phone about the relocation, adds, puts together to sales, to creating a position for like director of sales. And then just kept working my way up because I was just making a name for myself in the industry and really like helping the company grow for it really quickly. But all that time I was like my, my addiction was just there and it was just increasing. And then I was drinking during the job. I was had like liquor in Red Bull bottles, you know, just thinking that the smell of

• 39:46Speaker 01

  the Red Bull would like mask the liquor. But I, it was keeping me together, I thought. And, um, a couple like root, like scares, like health wise and just like decision making. But somehow like I put this like string of, of years together where I was really thriving.

• 40:07Rich Roll?

  The first time I saw an R2 in person, I got it immediately. This is the Rivian that a lot of people are going to be able to enjoy. Driving it with RJ only confirmed that. All right. So first impressions in my first.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  In your first.

• 40:21Rich Roll?

  Experience in the R2.

• 40:27Rich Roll?

  Nice. All right. Now I'm getting the feel.

• 40:29Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 40:30Rich Roll?

  It feels really tight.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  It feels nice, right?

• 40:33Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Interestingly, like from a first impression point of view, when you see it from a distance, proportionally, it looks very similar to the R1, you know, like the way that it is designed, it looks kind of integral with the original.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  It's quite a bit smaller. And so when you look, you look at them separately, sometimes you, people be like, is that an R1 or an R2? And they have a lot of similarities. But I, I actually think R2 ended up with a better set of proportions. And it's that kind of thinking that just exists across everything to try to deliver an experience that still feels really Rivian like, but at a fraction of the cost of R1.

• 41:11Rich Roll?

  First impressions aside, there's a lot more to the R2 than what you see at first glance. To learn all about the R2, watch the rest of our conversation and book a demo drive at stories.rivian.com/richroll.

• 41:26Rich Roll?

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• 42:10Rich Roll?

  aloe and green tea. I'm all in. I suspect you will be too. Their Sunstick sold out last summer and their mineral spray is selling really fast. Everything is in stock right now though. So make sure you get it before it sells out. Go to freaks of nature.com and use the code richroll to save 20% when you order now.

• 42:35Rich Roll?

  So you're moving up in the job, but your quality of life is degrading. You have a 10 year run drinking as a parent also.

• 42:45Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:46Rich Roll?

  You know, that has to be like looking now, you know, backwards at those times. Like it seems like you have a great relationship with your kids now.

• 42:55Speaker 01

  I think so. I try to. She's 19. My son's just turned 16. They, I mean, I don't think they remember me drinking, you know, but she remembers me as a dad then. So I don't know. I just don't really know like how much of that life she remembers. But I'm so happy that, you know, that I've been, I've been sober going on. I've been sober over nine years now and it's, um, I can't, I'm so thankful. I don't even necessarily have the words of like how happy and grateful I am to be in their lives and be in, and be a point of inspiration in a way.

• 43:38Speaker 01

  Or, and I don't hide, you know, the fact that I used to be an alcoholic or I am an alcoholic.

• 43:44Rich Roll?

  When we first met, correct me if I'm not remembering this properly, but when we were talking, you, you were still sort of struggling with whether to share your addiction and sobriety story. I mean, obviously you were much earlier in sobriety at that point.

• 44:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:02Rich Roll?

  And now this is, you know, it's, it's sort of running first in terms of like how you communicate publicly. But, um, the recovery piece has, has, has become much more prominent in how you think about, you know, how you share your life.

• 44:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. It was definitely like, I didn't, being in corporate for so long and trying to build yourself, your, your personal brand, but then also you're working, you're representing a company. Like I didn't ever, I never talked about sobriety, even after I got sober, I kind of was really quiet about it. Cause you don't wanna, you don't wanna negatively impact the company. But I had to like come to terms with this is my, this is my personal brand. This is my message. This is like, could potentially be my purpose in the world is to share some of the things that I've learned. And I got on a podcast once, it was like a live with Believe in the Run. And he was like 30 minute little spot. He asked me some questions.

• 44:57Speaker 01

  And there was a moment that I could have talked about sobriety, but, and he like teed it up perfect for it. And then I like pivoted and went back to running. And I got off that, that 30 minute live and felt so terrible. Like, like I missed an opportunity to potentially help one person maybe. And I'm like, okay, if I'm gonna do this whole Tommy runs thing, and I ever get an opportunity to be on a podcast again, if someone asked me that moment about that moment, or there's a chance that I could talk about sobriety, I'm doing it. And I think that was, when we met, it was like kind of right before that, all that happened. And, you know, knowing that there's a you too, out in the world that leans heavily into that story,

• 45:39Speaker 01

  gives like other people moments of clarity in a sense, or I can do that too. And so in that moment, I'm like, probably reference to you and other people in my brain, like they're doing just fine. And there's no one like shaming them for being, you know, attempting to be sober and stay sober and help other people. So that's when I leaned in, like I'm telling this story because when I got sober and the first day, the first meeting I went to, I went into a room with, you know, it was in a nice area. There was nice cars outside. Walked inside, everybody, you know, the average age was probably like 45 to 50. Everybody, no one looks like me in the room. And I walked in because the therapist told me that I should maybe check it out.

• 46:23Speaker 01

  And there was a guy that was gonna be waiting on me to get there. So I'm like, okay. And I walked in, I'm like, these people will, there's no chance that they understand what I've been through.

• 46:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And then I heard. Like a Gross Point crowd.

• 46:35Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 46:37Rich Roll?

  I told you this, you know, I was born in Gross Point.

• 46:40Speaker 01

  Okay. Yeah.

• 46:40Rich Roll?

  You remember? We, I think we talked about.

• 46:42Speaker 01

  It was actually West Bromfield. So basically same thing.

• 46:44Rich Roll?

  Same thing. Maybe even a little.

• 46:46Speaker 01

  A little more. Yeah, definitely a little more. And it was like a Bentley outside and like a, like a Porsche or something like that. Like this is, this isn't gonna work. But then I'm sitting there and all these people are telling their story and they literally in some way said how they've, in their stories, they, they shared how I felt, you know, about myself, addiction and all that. So I'm like, this is, these are my people almost immediately before I even said a word. I'm like, these are my people and I need to be here. If I can do that randomly on a podcast or in some version of like a caption of a post that I share about some shoes. And I mentioned something else that strikes like that chord of like, oh, I do, I resonate with this. And if he can do it, I can do it too.

• 47:29Speaker 01

  And that's been my theme for like everything that I've done, whether it's, you know, these big races or just going after marathons. It's not necessarily like, I want to inspire you to do this, but I want to inspire you to do some form of whatever that next step is for you. So that, that was really what I was grappling with was like, can I share this and is it helpful? And then I had to think about like, my life was saved in those rooms because people shared their stories authentically. They didn't cut corners. They didn't try to preach to the thing. They literally just shared some of their most vulnerable and scary and kind of like laughable stories.

• 48:10Speaker 01

  But it was what I needed to, to know that like, it's not just me, you know?

• 48:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Walk me up to your moment of clarity. Like, how did you, uh, wake up one day and decide this is the day that I'm gonna get sober? I'm gonna go to my first AA meeting.

• 48:27Speaker 01

  The day was, uh, January 11th, 2017. That was the, the, the last drink I had was January 10th. And leading up to that was like just a couple of years of just trying so hard to figure out how to string together a week or a month or whatever. And my friend Donovan, uh, like best friend, brother, met him when I was like 12. And we just like inseparable for so long. Rest in peace. He passed in, um, March and March 2025. And so he was, he definitely was alcoholic as well. He didn't ever say he was. But whenever like I would say that I wanted to stop drinking for a little bit, he would be like, all right, cool. I'll do it with you.

• 49:12Speaker 01

  And it was strange how quick he would, I knew he needed it too, but he was doing it for me, you know, in his head. But it like, it let me keep trying to do it. So every time I would try and fail, like I would tell him the truth and he'd be like, oh, you good, bro. Like, you know, you got a good job. Like we kind of played it off and kind of rolled forward. But every time I would try to get worse and worse to the point where like my mom text me one day. And January 2007, like right after the new year, uh, he and I were gonna do this dry January thing. And I got to like the third or fourth day into January, went over his house.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Our wives at the time were, you know, were drinking and I, I made it through the whole night, no drinking. And I woke up at like 2:30 in the morning. My kids are downstairs with his kids. Everybody's sleeping in the house at 2:30 in the morning. And I like went into the kitchen, found the bottle of vodka and just started drinking in the middle of the night. No one's awake. There's no reason why I would need to do this, you know, in my, in rational mind. And then just got drunk and fell asleep. And that was the silliest and dumbest and saddest that I've ever been. Yes. Like, at least like I could have caved like while people were awake.

• 50:30Rich Roll?

  You just woke up in the middle. Yeah. Like you couldn't even sleep through the night. There's everyone's, there's nothing going on.

• 50:35Speaker 01

  There's no benefit to me being tipsy, drunk or anything alike at that point.

• 50:41Rich Roll?

  There's no awkward social situation that you have to show up for. Yeah.

• 50:46Speaker 01

  I just had to stay asleep. I could have just went back to sleep, but I'm like, I'm gonna go have this drink. And, and then that was just, I woke up the next day and the days after that, I would just obviously write back to it. But I just felt that was the worst that I felt. And I'm just like, I'm gonna die like this. Like this is how I die is in a car or, you know, I'm already, I'm 30, whatever, 32. It's gonna be blood pressure because of my blood pressure was high at the time.

• 51:12Rich Roll?

  High blood pressure.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Yeah. Like I was in the hospital when I was 30 or something like that, 29, 30 with 100 and like 82 over like 120 something.

• 51:21Rich Roll?

  Wow.

• 51:22Speaker 01

  Like at this point, from then on, I could feel whenever my blood pressure would get high enough, like my hand was hard to go numb. Like, so I was playing with like dying, just like my dad, you know?

• 51:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. You have this, you know, father figure looming over you who died so young.

• 51:37Speaker 01

  If I can't be better than him, I might as well like die sooner. This is ridiculous, I guess. But so like that's, but that's where I was like, that's like, this is just how it ends. You know, there's no, I have, I cannot beat this. It will not happen. And.

• 51:52Speaker 01

  It just is what it is. And my mom like text me one day. She's like, how's my son? And this was like a day or so after that episode. And I'm like, normally I just go, I'm doing great. Kids are good, blah, blah, blah. I just told her not good. And simply like just, just that quick, not good, didn't divulge what was happening. And she said, you know, you should call, you should reach out to EAP. You have insurance, employee system program, reach out. They'll maybe help you. And so I did what she told me to do. And they called me like the next day and was like, hey, you know, they do like a little screening thing to figure out what type of therapist maybe you need. I complained about family stuff and blamed everything. The reason why I was calling is not my fault. It's not addiction. It's just, you know, whatever.

• 52:35Speaker 01

  But she asked me how many, how many times I drink a day or a week. And I'm like, it really just depends on like what it is. If it's beer, it's a ton. If it's liquor, it's seven, eight or whatever until I can't anymore. And I wake up in the morning and I drink. And she's like, okay, no, no.

• 52:50Rich Roll?

  You were honest in that answer.

• 52:52Speaker 01

  So like I told her the truth. I told this lady on the phone, the truth. And then they like, okay, well, we have an appointment for you on January 11th. Uh, with this person and she's a family therapist. And so I'm like, okay, cool. January 10th, I drank at like 10:30 PM. Like I can't go there smelling like liquor. So let's stop here. Um, so I walked in and she starts talking to me. I'm started complaining about family and this and that works hard. She was like, well, how much do you drink? You know, or do you, do you think I have a drinking problem? Like, yeah, I mean, I drink a bit. And then she asked me how much and I told her the truth again. She's like, okay, well, the cool thing is I'm a family therapist, but I'm also, um, I'm, I'm actually mainly a substance abuse counselor.

• 53:36Speaker 01

  And I'm like, I almost walked out like you guys tricked me, you know what I'm saying? But, uh, they, she, she said, well, you, you definitely have a drinking problem. I'm not going to call you an alcoholic, but you have, you have an issue. There's a meeting that happens on Sunday. I know a guy that goes there. He's a nice guy. He's around your age. You should go with him. Just meet him there. And then, so I walked out of that office and was like, all right, well, how about I just don't drink from Wednesday to, to Sunday? And at that point, that's like four or five days and that is a stretch for me. But somehow because of, I say like those three truths, I was able to like, the weight of the addiction was lifted enough for me to, to hold and not drink from January 11th to that, to when I walked in that meeting.

• 54:19Rich Roll?

  Right. Also, you're a man of great integrity. And when you say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna not drink for these four days, like you're a man of your word.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  Yeah, I've been able to, yeah. Yeah. I didn't tell her that. I just said that in my head, like, I'm just not gonna drink.

• 54:32Rich Roll?

  But it's that, it's that thing, that superiority complex, like I am, you know, like I'm stronger than anyone, while also feeling like I'm the worst person in the world. Like you're simultaneously like inhabiting those two ideas about yourself.

• 54:46Speaker 01

  I don't know. Like, I don't know if I ever, I always thought that I could be really good at something. But I just didn't think that I was, I had what it took to reach like my potential. You know, like, that's just it. Like I knew that I was like smart enough. I knew I could talk enough. I knew I could make friends with people that I needed to and talk to whoever my mom, you know, my family raised me so well.

• 55:09Rich Roll?

  Who else could drink as much as you were drinking and still move up the corporate ladder at your job and be a parent? You know, like, you know, you're like, I'm, I'm like crushing it.

• 55:18Speaker 01

  I mean, low key, like low key Renaissance man type stuff.

• 55:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  You know, but you know, like, I think that I just never looked at myself well, ever, you know, like even during that time, working for that one company for 17 years. I was just telling somebody the other day, like I had job offers that were easily anybody else would have taken. But I can't take that job because you're gonna, you'll find out.

• 55:39Rich Roll?

  They'll find out.

• 55:39Speaker 01

  You'll find out. Cause if whatever, for whatever reason, this company, they don't, they're not paying attention to me like that. But you're gonna find out that I'm an asshole or that I'm like just drinking my life away.

• 55:48Rich Roll?

  I'll stay here because they're sort of blind to what I'm doing and I have a setup.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  They need me. They like, you know, like, and so like, I just didn't have the confidence at that time to like, make a decision that would put me at risk of being like found out, you know?

• 56:04Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 56:05Speaker 01

  But leading up to that, like moment of, of like walking into her office was just, I think it's, it's just the truth part, you know, like, I like you, we lie about our, our alcoholism and the things we're doing so much. It's just, it's like second nature or first nature almost just to hide, lie. You know, how many drinks have you had? Two, you know? But it's like, I finally was able to tell the truth about it to someone outside of Donovan, you know, and people that I probably wouldn't have told the truth to. And it just, it like loosened its like grip enough for me to see some space in between, you know, myself in this drink. And I'm, I just like thank God for like, for whatever happened. Like I was able to tell the truth at that moment.

• 56:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So you go to that first meeting, you hear a version of your story. Something clicks in you. How do you go from being a guy who can't go three or four days without drinking to not drinking for coming up on 10 years at this point from that January 11th, 2017 day?

• 57:15Speaker 01

  You know, the, the meetings saved my life, not just like that day, but having, um, a place to go that felt like home more than home did, allowed me to just continue to work through some of those, those worries and issues that I thought were just so important to me, you know? Like when you go into a meeting, you complain about something or you're worried about something. Like somebody that has like 15, 20 years says like the most simple stupid statement. That just means like, oh, relax. That's one day at a time. I'm worried about three months away because I gotta go to a conference.

• 57:54Rich Roll?

  One of the endless aphorisms that are so annoying.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  It's like, it's like, bro, shut up. Like, okay though, I get it, you know? It's, but it was, it's all the things that I like, I learned in the program. And as I worked through those like first few years of, you know, being able to bounce ideas or thoughts or worries off of people who weren't judging me, but like saw themselves or heard themselves in what I was worried about and responded in a way that was much more passionate and, um, like caring than someone who doesn't understand, who can have a drink and not drink for three, four days. People like that don't understand like what you're, how silly some of the things you worry about, but how large those issues can become if you, if they go unchecked.

• 58:40Speaker 01

  And so being in the program, those first few years was so I needed every, I needed that more than anything. And I also think that I'm blessed to, to not have the urge to drink. And it kind of happened really fast. Like once I'm like fully made that decision that this is where I belong. I just haven't had that, oh, I think I need a drink. Or, oh, I should drink right now. I've just, I just haven't had that. And I know people struggle with that like every day. So I know that I'm blessed and kind of rare in that, in that aspect, but I think it was just because of how

• 59:19Speaker 01

  for me, how much I, I really wanted to be here, but just couldn't see a way. And they, and they showed me like the way to it. And I just accepted it like wholeheartedly. And yeah, I probably still act like an alcoholic and process things in a weird way that only we would. But at the same time, it just doesn't lead me back to, to like wanting a drink. Cause I know, I know, and I also know that I fully believe that I'll die if I go back to drinking.

• 59:50Rich Roll?

  What do you think the difference is between someone like yourself who can walk into a meeting desperate? Still not sure, not only like, am I going to be able to be a sober person, but do I even really want this?

• 1:00:10Rich Roll?

  And yet, building this foundation of sobriety and the person who has walked some version of your path, who goes in and feels similarly about themselves and their relationship with alcohol and like, can't get it or is in and out all the time. Is it something more than deeply wanting it? Is it a function of willingness? Like, what is the differentiator between the person who really kind of locks in and like does the work and builds a new life and the person who just continues to struggle?

• 1:00:45Speaker 01

  I think, I mean, the first thing that comes to mind to me is like ego. I mean, we have, we have this like identity built in, like who we think we are and. And I mean, the reason why it takes people to get to rock bottom, whatever your rock bottom is to make that change is because you're still attached to that ego or to that identity. And anything that rubs against that, you're gonna have some unwillingness to shift or make the change. So like for me, my rock bottom doesn't look maybe nearly as bad as someone else's, but I was just ready to change. Like I wanted it, you know, bad enough to be willing to do all the things and say all the silly statements.

• 1:01:28Speaker 01

  But I think it really just comes down to maybe not wanting it, but just being open and ready to take the suggestions of this book or these people that are ahead of you in this journey.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  And also just like surrendering to the fact that you, I mean, you really don't have any control. Like whether it's over alcohol or drugs or whatever, you just don't have it in life in general. We just have no, the only control we have is just how we respond to these, to like to these moments and to these opportunities or happenings in life. And if you can just get to the point where you just are okay with like that, then that's the building blocks for like whatever's next.

• 1:02:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:11Speaker 01

  But you just see so many people kind of holding on to their identity or who they think they should be. They want to be sober, but there's also this, this thing that's holding them too close to what they built during their addiction.

• 1:02:28Rich Roll?

  They haven't fully surrendered to the idea of powerlessness.

• 1:02:32Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:32Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And the idea that this has to come before everything else and there's no quick fix. Like you really have to just be like, all right, like what's it gonna be? You know, I'm, you know, Odysseus on the raft, you know, leaving Calypso behind in full surrender and letting the gods direct the current, you know, and hopefully I'll end up home, but it's really out of my hands.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  So silly. I almost like cried in that movie when he did that because it's like, I mean, that's how it feels. It's just like you.

• 1:03:04Rich Roll?

  He's going through the 12 steps in that movie. We talked about this with Ryan Holiday.

• 1:03:09Speaker 01

  I loved that episode, by the way.

• 1:03:10Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:03:11Speaker 01

  Thank you for that.

• 1:03:12Rich Roll?

  And it's like, finally, you know, like now he's gonna get it. Like the only way he's gonna solve this problem is by, by like relinquishing the idea that he can solve it himself.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, you just have, yeah, you just have to have to let go. And if that's what it feels like, it feels like you're, you're just laying. It's not like they sent him in a little boat with a paddle. It's literally just lay on these couple of pieces of wood and just float and see what happens. And that's what it feels like, even though we were like probably on a makeshift boat with like 20 holes in the bottom, gonna sink anyway. We're like holding on to this thought of we should be able to, this should be different. It should be a plan. It should be something more, you know, amazing to think about, like this better journey, but we really just have to like let go and follow the, like the tenants of the program, but then also

• 1:04:03Speaker 01

  just relinquishing all control of what we thought we were controlling. Cause that's one thing like for, for me at least, alcoholism seems like this wild thing that you're just so out of control. But there's this weird false sense of control within ourselves. We're like, we know what we're doing. We've crafted this master plan of how to be drunk around everybody. No one knows. It's this false sense of, of security that we still try to hold on to as we're like trying to step away from it.

• 1:04:34Rich Roll?

  Yeah, well said. When is the running?

• 1:04:36Speaker 01

  That was my goal is to get you to say well said at least once.

• 1:04:39Rich Roll?

  I got, well, all right, goal, goal unlocked. Um, I have some goals also. I'll show them at the end. We're not there yet. When is running enter the picture?

• 1:04:49Speaker 01

  Uh, so running enters in 2018. So I was like, after getting sober, like two weeks into that walk, I could, I could like start to see myself in the mirror. Like physically, I'm like, oh, I look like crap. Like with my shirt off in the mirror, like this is, I feel terrible still. I look bad.

• 1:05:12Speaker 01

  So let me start going to the gym. So I was going to the gym six or seven days a week. I just started going and I got real buff. Like I was really into it and my name, I forgot my name was before, but uh, my name was Tommy Guns on Instagram after like I started getting like real buff.

• 1:05:30Rich Roll?

  You had a, you had some other stage name on Instagram before that?

• 1:05:35Speaker 01

  I mean, it was like.

• 1:05:36Rich Roll?

  You can't remember what it is?

• 1:05:37Speaker 01

  No, I think it was like something about cooking or something. Like, cause I liked cooking, cause I could drink while I was cooking and I enjoyed that, that process.

• 1:05:45Rich Roll?

  All right. So now you're, you're.

• 1:05:46Speaker 01

  So now I'm Tommy Guns. I'm in the gym like heavy. Um, like.

• 1:05:51Rich Roll?

  Guns with a Z, of course.

• 1:05:52Speaker 01

  Guns with a Z. Yeah, yeah. We, we stayed branded all the way across. But then, so like, I was still working at the job. I had a client that was based in Chicago and he's like, in 2018, he's like, hey, um, you're fit. We run the Chicago rock and roll half marathon every year as my, for my company. We raise a bunch of money for a charity called Move for Hunger. Um, and I was familiar, very familiar with the charity. Like I met the guy who owns or who started that the same, like my first business trip. He was on that first, it was his first business trip. So shout out to Adam.

• 1:06:28Speaker 01

  But so like, I'm like, yeah, I bet I'll raise some money for the charity. So I raised some money and, but I'm training for this race. Training, you know, it was like six weeks of just like, kind of like I jumped into a couple of like five Ks to see what I could do. And then I ran this, this, this race in Chicago. And at that point, it was like a little over a year of sobriety, but somehow like getting on the line with all these people that I don't know, like thousands is a big race, thousands of people I don't know, running through the streets of Chicago, all with like the same similar goal. Some people are gonna get there faster or slower. But like, we all did it together and it felt like this, number one, felt a lot like the rooms to me somehow in, in sobriety.

• 1:07:13Speaker 01

  And then secondly, no disrespect to my kids or whatever, but it was probably one of the most proud moments that I've had in my life. To be somewhere so far from like, from what I thought was possible, like growing up. I didn't grow up seeing people like run half marathons for fun. Like my mom did like a couple of charity walks and stuff like that for like breast cancer, like back when I was a kid. But I didn't know anybody that would run 13.1 miles in a row on purpose and pay for it and go do it. So it was like, I'm so proud of myself at this point. And so as soon as I got over like a metatarsal fracture that I had like right before the race, I ran anyway, cause that's what we do.

• 1:07:52Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:54Speaker 01

  I'm like, I like this running thing. Let me just keep doing it. So then I would just run a little bit more and started training and started signing up for different stuff. And then eventually my cousin was like, uh, you're not, you mean, you ain't Tommy Guns anymore. You're Tommy Runs. And I'm, I looked on Instagram really quick, put the R in to see if it was available and it was, so I took it.

• 1:08:11Rich Roll?

  And that's all she wrote.

• 1:08:12Speaker 01

  That's all she wrote. Now we're sitting.

• 1:08:14Rich Roll?

  You were off to the races.

• 1:08:15Speaker 01

  Literally.

• 1:08:16Rich Roll?

  From that point forward, um, you've gone on to, I mean, how many marathons have you run at this point?

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  Seventeen.

• 1:08:22Rich Roll?

  Seventeen. You did all six majors. Did you do that in a single year?

• 1:08:28Speaker 01

  I did run all six majors at the time when there was only six still. That was the last year there was six. 2024, I did all six in a year. I did Osaka marathon seven days before Tokyo, which is the first marathon major of the year. So I did all six in one year, but I had done multiple, multiple of them many different times, but I got my six star medal thing in London that year.

• 1:08:48Rich Roll?

  Yeah. And your marathon PR is like 246 or something?

• 1:08:53Speaker 01

  246.59.

• 1:08:54Rich Roll?

  246. So you're quick. You've matured into like an excellent marathon runner. Now you're plying your trade on the trails.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:09:04Rich Roll?

  You've done the Javelina 100. Uh, you did a hundred K race also. You, uh, you did the speed project and you recently did Western States.

• 1:09:14Speaker 01

  Western States 100, yeah.

• 1:09:15Rich Roll?

  Did I get all of them?

• 1:09:16Speaker 01

  Yes, you did.

• 1:09:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. So, uh, you stepped into this whole other world. Along the way, at some point, uh, in your running journey, you decided to be kind of a content creator in this space. I'm interested in how that evolved, like this thing that was a very personal kind of self-discovery.

• 1:09:36Rich Roll?

  Relationship with running now becomes like a, you know, kind of a public relationship that you're having. And now it's like a business. You know, it's like you're a running influencer, quote unquote, in the best kind of interpretation of that phrase. That has a kind of pejorative connotation.

• 1:09:53Speaker 01

  Yeah. When I first started running, I was already making like content and stuff like on LinkedIn for work. So I was very familiar with like just making content and editing videos. So when I started running, I started posting more and the cool part about the sobriety thing, going to the gym and then the running was I would share like just what I did. And some of the things I was doing was so far outside of what people that I knew would see on a day-to-day basis, people responded to it really well. Just like the, I, it wasn't about influencing because there was no influencers to me at like 2019 or 18. But the people give me like little kudos here and there saying like, oh wow, this is really cool. Keep going. Oh wow. You're, you're sober. Great. Keep going.

• 1:10:32Speaker 01

  That's what I needed. I needed like some of that reinforcement that, that what I did mattered, not only to me, but it potentially mattered to other people. And I just needed that nudge to keep pushing. So like as I, that, that journey went on, I started just getting more, you know, just a little better at making content. Seeing people on YouTube do cool videos. So I tried to make my own little cool videos on, on Instagram. But then after, like during 2020, um, obviously, I mean, I was already working from home because I had already moved back here. I mean, back to Michigan. So, um, I was, you know, I just had a little bit more time because everything slowed down, work slowed down. So then I started, you know, really kind of leaning in and making some content. And then one thing that I felt, I felt like that was very prevalent in that moment for me

• 1:11:17Speaker 01

  is like after like COVID happened. So obviously like life is strange and weird and kind of scary because you're like, who, what's next? But then Ahmaud Arbery, George Floyd, it's like, okay. Like number one, I, as a black man in America, I felt very just vulnerable at that time. That my job could be just gone because of COVID. My life could be gone because of, you know, anything or racism. So I'm looking at my kids like, if something happens to me, what have I left behind for them? The fact that I'm sober, sweet, you know, but I'm like, let me start doing something that I feel like they can be, they can see.

• 1:11:58Speaker 01

  And something that's like a little more tangible than just like he was a cool guy and he ran or something like that. So I started a, um, I heard this phrase said, run, run, eat, sleep, repeat. Like years before. And so I'm like, you know, I'm about to print shirts and make shirts that say Run, Eat, Sleep, Repeat. So that was like my like foray into like starting a company and having shirts for sale. People liked it. People were supporting it. And as I was doing that, like my social media presence was kind of growing, like very slowly. But then I'm like, okay, how do I sell these shirts? Like, what can I do around that? And then watching your podcast, I could do it like a podcast, right? And so I started doing live videos of the Run, Eat, Sleep show. So then I started doing

• 1:12:41Speaker 01

  live videos with people I knew. I would ask people to be on the show. And I started interviewing like really big names in the industry or in the running world as I kind of went on. So everything just started like growing at that time. And I was also doing the Tommy Runs thing, also doing the show, but I was making a lot of contacts with brands because of the show. So I was just like, they were feeding each other. And then eventually I got to the point where Tommy Runs was just doing well enough where me doing this show interviewing other people didn't feel like my voice anymore because Tommy Runs was my voice and I could talk about sobriety and talk about the things that I'm feeling, you know, on the other side of the world, you know, like I was in, I was in Tokyo with my mom because she came to on that trip to run the Tokyo Marathon.

• 1:13:23Speaker 01

  I was there the like, the day that my dad, that I was the same exact age as my dad when he passed, like, because I was very familiar. Our birthdays are only five days apart. So I know like February 19th is the day he passed. I know. So I knew on this day, I'm the exact same age as he was, you know? So like, I'm able to share that story directly through the Tommy Runs thing. And I can lean into the, the, the, what I think is potentially helpful, maybe very vulnerable, but helpful for other people in that position. And so I just kept building that thing, slowed down the show and leaned more into the Tommy Runs thing and started working with brands because of those relationships. That's just been my like, my journey a little bit.

• 1:14:05Rich Roll?

  What is the mission that you're on? Like, what is the purpose of all of this? Like, what are you aiming for or trying to accomplish in the, in the public facing aspect of, of running these races and training for them and sharing your sobriety story?

• 1:14:20Speaker 01

  Um, it, imposter syndrome going crazy right now. Um, and to inspire people through telling my story and doing these things like in an authentic way. You know, like if I'm, if I say yes to doing a race, uh, it's obviously for me because I learned in the program, like I have to put a lot of my decisions with me first in, in mind to make sure that like, that I'm okay and I want to do this and I can be of value to the people around me at least. So I have my own like personal journeys and like, this is why I'm going to do that because I want to do it. And I know that it'll push me to, to work hard to get there. But then I, I share all this stuff and

• 1:14:55Speaker 01

  um, run all these races to present like my, my vulnerable self to people and try to make it look good and fun and cool. But if, if I can go run six or seven marathons in a year, or the speed project from LA to Las Vegas, you know, for 340 miles, if that thing kind of clicks somebody into being like, oh, well, then I can do like a 5K or 10K or whatever, or even a marathon, then that's what, you know, that helped him doing that helped me.

• 1:15:31Rich Roll?

  You know, pass, pass the drive through on the way home or like not eat the whole bag of chips. Like, it doesn't have to be running, you know?

• 1:15:38Speaker 01

  No, it doesn't have to be.

• 1:15:39Rich Roll?

  Inspiration is transferable.

• 1:15:41Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's like, if, if I can just be real, open and honest in this journey and do things that kind of light me up, then I want to inspire people along the way. And some of that, like when I started the company and selling clothes and stuff like that, that was also like in a way is like, what can I do that makes me feel good enough that I can position this and share in a way that someone else can be inspired in some way. And, but that also goes back to the sobriety thing is, is just people sharing their stories. They weren't doing it for me. They weren't sharing their, their drunken story for me and their 20 years of sobriety for me.

• 1:16:15Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:16Speaker 01

  But them being real and open and showing like the, the process that they went through, that's what inspired me to change my life and saved my life.

• 1:16:24Rich Roll?

  Let's talk about representation. When I asked you about your mission, you know, a big piece of this is, is, is about representation. Like, you know, what is the, the black community's relationship to running generally to the marathon space and now more recently, the trail space?

• 1:16:41Speaker 01

  Um, so I'll just speak from like my perspective. Most of us didn't grow up seeing running done as a hobby, um, or for fun or for health or for whatever. We just, we thought, like, we've always thought that, you know, running and jogging is a white people thing to do.

• 1:16:57Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I listened to the podcast that you did with our friend Zach Clark.

• 1:17:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:17:01Rich Roll?

  And you're like, no offense, like jogging is a white people thing.

• 1:17:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. You know, I mean, it was. And that's what, well, at least that's what our perspective was on it. Cause um, we just didn't, we just didn't grow up seeing that like in our, in our areas and neighborhoods. Um, and if we did, it was, it was definitely not somebody that looked like us. So, you know, as I started running in 2018, you know, I'd go to some of these races and um, it was, wasn't terrible, but it was still like very much um, an outlier thing to do as a, as a, as a black man in this, in, in America to be like running marathons. And I know that there's plenty of people that were doing it before us, but that's just like, you know, you come into these races and you don't feel represented well.

• 1:17:40Rich Roll?

  What's interesting about that is, you know, at the elite level, the highest level of performance from the 100 meters to the marathon, it's dominated by black people.

• 1:17:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. But then like-

• 1:17:52Rich Roll?

  But that's not trickling down into the participation level.

• 1:17:55Speaker 01

  I mean, okay, like you're not jogging with Noah Lyles, you know, like, he's not jogging, you know? But like, but then on the other side, like when you talk about the marathons, I mean, they are black folks, but then they're also just different. I mean, they're, they're, you know, just from their different, different countries, they're born in different circumstances. And that doesn't necessarily, like, that just doesn't resonate with, you know, people from Chicago or Detroit or whatever, you know, it's just not, it's not us still in some way. Like, we're just like, oh, that's them because they're from Kenya or whatever. So it just, there's a disconnect there when it, when you, when in reality, there really shouldn't be because there should be like, oh, that's obvious. We, we should be able to do that. Um, but as I like started to run and, and

• 1:18:36Speaker 01

  grow in that space more and then 2020 happened and then Black Lives Matter happened, then people are starting to like, we're starting to gain steam. People are inside or like, you know, not going to work necessarily. So they have more time to try to find recreation. So we saw that running boom and black people were involved in that. And then you have, you know, people that are out like really pushing forward, like Alison Desir, like shout out to her, you know, like people like that were like outside, like talking about these issues and how, you know, the running community or running industry needs to, to open and at least, you know, make space for this to be a path, you know? And as that happened, you know, you got run clubs popping up. Shout out to like, we run 313 in Detroit and all these big run, huge run clubs right now. It's

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  like started in those, in like around that time and gave black people um, a space to come and hang out and run two, three, four, 10 miles, whatever, that felt like this is our thing and we do belong at least in this spot. And so the more you saw that happen, the more you saw that trickle into like 5Ks, 10Ks, marathons. And as I'm going through like my marathon journey and sharing it intentionally, um, not being like, hey, I'm the only black person here, but it's like, hey, I'm here. And here's the process that I went through and sharing it in a way that I think looks cool. And then you start seeing more and more people um, gravitate towards like, okay, marathon's next. And let's, what are we going to do? And as I saw like that thing happen, now

• 1:20:03Speaker 01

  that I've like kind of stepped into trail, I just, walking into a running space that doesn't mirror or even closely resemble the progress that's happened on the road feels very, um,

• 1:20:20Speaker 01

  it feels intentional. It feels like, like how is this possible? You know, like how is this happening?

• 1:20:28Rich Roll?

  I mean, the trail, you know, racing, running world is, is about as wide as it gets.

• 1:20:34Speaker 01

  Yeah. So in, in being closer to it, like from, from the outside looking in, it's like, oh, this is intentional for sure. But then you get closer to it and, you know, you maybe talk to the right people and you start seeing like what the, what the actual intention is, but maybe there's not enough paths or like, whatever tools for this to change rapidly. So as I'm like in this space, I'm like, how can I, what can I do to like help this? Because I feel like I was, I helped a bit, like on the roadside, just by sharing like my journey and pushing forward and speaking on podcasts and sharing like my perspective on like what black running is and what like the

• 1:21:16Speaker 01

  black experiences are at these races and traveling around the world. Um, how can I mimic that or like lean into that feeling of not only, you know, showing or making a statement that, that shows that there's so much room to grow here, but doing it in a way that's pulling people in. Um, and not necessarily speaking at the like, not avoiding the issue, but not, but all my focus is on, how do I connect, make connections for like someone that's in Atlanta? What if I post a, a video or a picture or a shirt that makes somebody say like, I want to support that, but

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  I don't run on trails. So let me go find a trail. Or, oh, if Tommy just ran Western States, I don't even know what Western States is or like why it's important, but it seems like it's important. I could find a trail near me. And I'm not necessarily saying like, we all need to be out there, but the fact that it's, it's definitely, it's just so much different. The road, like you don't run for five miles on the road and then go, oh, wow, look at this. Like, it's like, you know, it's, I was listening to Oprah pod that she did the other day. And she was talking about hiking is her favorite thing to do right now. And she said that like, you don't look at the where you're going, you don't look at the top of it the whole time. You just kind of head down doing your thing. And every like 10 minutes or so, you can like look backwards to see how far

• 1:22:40Speaker 01

  you, how far you've come. And when you run these trail races, like if it's a long enough race, you could run for 10 minutes, 15 minutes. And if you can look around, the view changes so often that it's so like-

• 1:22:56Speaker 01

  You find yourself looking at things that you've never dreamed that you that you'd see. And I want that experience for as many people as possible, especially people of of color that like grew up that didn't think that they'd ever see themselves on a mountain. I said on a on a panel once, there's like, we did a little shakeout run for TrailCon last year. And it's a four mile run. It's not very far. You know, it's just four miles. And you get to the top of that thing. It's like right up near the escarpment. And you turn around and you look and you see views that I that a picture just a phone couldn't capture the beauty of this thing. And so if I can share my journey, that would make someone potentially want to find that in their way.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  That's like what I have to do.

• 1:23:43Rich Roll?

  Yeah. It's very much attraction, not promotion. You know, it's kind of a recovery principle. You're not trying to convince people that this is what they should do. You're kind of modeling the aspiration of doing it yourself as a magnet to attract more people and and demonstrate that it's possible. But when I think about why the trail community is the way that it is, I mean, you you use the word, you know, intentional. I mean, what are the the barriers to access are economic, obviously. There's proximity to trails, you know, for communities that are in urban environments, et cetera. There's not seeing somebody that they recognize or, you know, feel like represents who they are in this community. And now you're very much like

• 1:24:29Rich Roll?

  serving that role for a lot of people. What are the other factors that you think have contributed to this? And and beyond what you're doing individually, what are the solutions to diversifying this sport? Because it started so granola. It's not like like these were cheap races. Nobody was signing up for them. Now there's a lot of money in it. It's very different, but but it's not like, you know, lacrosse or hockey or, you know, or cycling or something that, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a huge capital expenditure involved, except that there's having to travel to these places and that's obviously expensive.

• 1:25:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean, so I think it's just the some of the solution is like back to intention, you know, like it's I'm a brand guy, like work with brands. So it's it's a lot of my thought when I see like some of these spaces. The community itself plays a big role in like how much they're like trying to extend that net or like the the like, how much are you trying to show that this is an option? Like, and to attract people in. But then you're also like, I also look at them at the some of these the brands. I mean, because you know how it works, like you choose some brands, they go on a trip to Tahoe or whatever. There's they're making a choice of who they want to be there. And it seems like really simple and little, but like,

• 1:25:47Speaker 01

  you know, I'm not saying every brand invite me somewhere, but like if there's people that are already in trail and they may not be the biggest trail influencer in the world. It's it's it's a vote to be like, you know, we I do want trail as a brand. I do want trail to look different. I do want trail to represent our customer base. I do want trail to feel like everyone should be able to experience something like this. So our vote as a brand is to make sure that we're finding authentic people that are really into this thing. But then they also serve as a catalyst or like people that will open the aperture of a community to be like, hey, you know, that's an option too.

• 1:26:28Speaker 01

  Because I think, you know, there's obviously some some economic issues of how or in proximity of trail and all that stuff. But there's also a lack of or has been a lack of a communication of like the possibilities of it, just period. Because two years ago, I didn't see, if you can see it and you're interested, you you'll you'll make it happen. You know, like you can make it happen at least. So I think that it just has to be more of a vote and a real thought like, let's look back at road in 2019 to 2020, 2021, and how much brands leaned in

• 1:27:08Speaker 01

  to making sure that that road was more diverse, these races are more diverse in the in advertising and brand trips and blah, blah, blah. That was a very strategic effort, you know, on them in response to a lot of pressure. But they responded decent to it. So like, maybe we should think about for trail, let's implement some of that and lean into as a community, whether it's brand, whether it's organizations, whether it's conferences. How do you lean into like, we want this place to look like, you know, what we want a random trail race in the, you know, close to Chicago to look. You know, because this isn't about getting more people to one spot or like one race

• 1:27:53Speaker 01

  in access to Western states or TrailCon or Broken Arrow like that's a separate, that's like an entity within itself, like that's a isolated thing. But there there is access to these to trails much closer than that and much cheaper than going to find a Tahoe, California.

• 1:28:10Rich Roll?

  Sure. I mean, most urban areas have some kind of natural preserve situation that isn't that far away. But it's also a mindset thing, like the idea of like, I'm an urban dweller. This is my environment like I I don't belong in those spaces like it's a it's before you even get into trail running, it's like, oh, just like I'm going to go for a walk in a nearby forest.

• 1:28:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:28:33Rich Roll?

  You know, could be a leap for, you know, a certain a certain person who was raised to believe a certain thing about like who they are.

• 1:28:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, like we like when I came here, it's it's, you know, I see a mountain close by. Two years ago, I would have just saw a mountain like this. That just happened, whatever. I don't care. But as soon as I see it now, I'm saying like, oh, maybe I should look on on on an app to find out if there's a trail or not. And I think that that's like that little switch of there's a there's a potential really cool view or like a really good workout that could be had if I just find a trail. And a lot of people just don't have that. Like if if you, I don't even know all the trails in my area, you know, and there's people that have been in trail that would be like, oh, brother, there's a trail 15 minutes from you. Like, what do you mean? And that to me is just saying like, let's open up like the the direct like line to like, this is a possibility.

• 1:29:27Speaker 01

  And if even if you only run on trail like once or whatever, or you don't, it's just it should be an option or an unlock there. And I think that that's the way towards progress is opening that thought up to to as many people as possible so they can decide how far they want to go. When we push for like more people to more black folks and brown folks to be on on the road at these marathons, that doesn't mean, you know, everybody that was inspired by that doesn't mean that they ran a marathon, but they might have started going to their their local run club. They might have just decided to get to run by themselves and get healthy. But how do we just like get that rolling and get that momentum as a people and as a community?

• 1:30:09Rich Roll?

  Were you the only black person running Western states?

• 1:30:12Speaker 01

  No, there was only a few, but I don't I don't know all of the people, but I think there was at least two.

• 1:30:17Rich Roll?

  I was trying to remember if I saw any other black person at TrailCon other than you.

• 1:30:21Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Well, TrailCon was a little different. Trail, I was the only person that was, I think, that was like speed that spoke at TrailCon this year. That was black and there were like a lady that I know that was there. She was like, she counted, I think it was like four of us at TrailCon. And then probably less than that.

• 1:30:39Rich Roll?

  Thousands of people that attended that event.

• 1:30:41Speaker 01

  The TrailCon part and some of the Western states part, to me, that's it. The brands have a lot to do with that, I think. You know, there's a they spend a lot of money to be sponsors to these to these things.

• 1:30:54Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it's become a very commodified event, like all the vendors and like, you know, ACG had a huge like presence there. Like every brand was showing up at TrailCon like, and you know, they're investing money in this space like it's a very commercial prospect right now.

• 1:31:10Speaker 01

  Yeah. And so but like in that, you know, if a brand's a big sponsor, they're not, it's not just them. They're bringing people with them there. We know this influencer market is what it is. They're they've got five, 10 people there just making content, having fun, running the races, being involved in the in the in the conference. So it's like at that moment, I think.

• 1:31:27Rich Roll?

  What it was before and it's missing out on what it could be by, you know, virtue of having a variety of perspectives.

• 1:31:36Speaker 01

  Yeah, because like the more the more enough to the people that like are romanticizing like the old days and keeping some of these things, you know, so pure. I understand that like it's, I mean, I get that.

• 1:31:47Rich Roll?

  And there are certain races that probably will always stay that way, like Barclay marathons is never going to change, you know?

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  Somebody's like, would you run see some of the progress and innovation that's happened on the road when it comes to like run clubs and race different types of races, different types of brands, making different types of clothes and apparel, all that came because just more people from different backgrounds were attracted to it. And we've seen the running boom because of so many different people. It wasn't because running stayed the same. So if you look at trail, like, how can we bring more more people from? Some thought they would be there forever, some never even imagined it. But those two people come together. It's it, the possibility is like kind of endless.

• 1:32:29Rich Roll?

  Sure. That was the topic of at least one panel at TrailCon. Like, there's a lot of discourse around like what's happening to the trail community. You know, it's it's grown, obviously.

• 1:32:44Rich Roll?

  But, you know, there's a romanticization of like the early days where you would pitch your tent at the starting line. And it was, you know, a couple of guys in vans or whatever.

• 1:32:52Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:32:53Rich Roll?

  And now it is what it is today. Is this moving in the right direction? Is it not like there are protectionists like we need to protect the purity of this culture? And then there are opportunists on the other side of that spectrum who are like looking at like the financial opportunities that are available here. And in the middle, there's like, you know, a variety of opinions about like what this community should look like and what trail running should represent, et cetera. But the community is dictated by the people who are participating in that community. It's not dictated from above, like this is who we are and what we are. It's like the people who inhabit the ecosystem are the ones who get to decide that.

• 1:33:33Rich Roll?

  And unless you are onboarding a diversity of voices, it's gonna, you know, remain stagnant and kind of stuck in what it was before. And it's missing out on what it could be by, you know, virtue of having a variety of perspectives.

• 1:33:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, because like the more, you know, to the people that like are romanticizing like the old days and keeping some of these things, you know, so pure. I understand that, like, it's, I mean, I get that.

• 1:34:01Rich Roll?

  And there are certain races that probably will always stay that way. Like Barclay Marathons is never gonna change, you know?

• 1:34:07Speaker 01

  Somebody's like, would you run Barclay? Hell no, right? Like, so I'm not ridiculous. But it's like to those people that like are trying to like hold on to that. The running boom has showed us that like, if you don't open the door to new voices, the way that things are going with social media, it's gonna happen. They're gonna, they're gonna, people are gonna start running trail regardless, whether you invite them or not. You know, or if you, if they feel welcomed by you or not. And so if you feel like a real like trail purist and you want people to take care of the trail and you want people to to make sure that they're like respecting like nature and all these different things, you should openly be a part of the growth of the sport. Instead of like clinging to like, we can't do this because of the, you know, all these reasons,

• 1:34:51Speaker 01

  open up a bit and realize that you could be like the the the generation or the people that help guide this growth in a way that stays and maintains like this this purity of, because we are in nature. It's not like we're just running down the street. And there's some rules and guidelines that you should follow, you know? Just because it's, we're running on on on borrowed land or taken land, you know? And so we should respect these things. And if you decide that you don't want this group to come because they are different, then they're probably gonna do whatever they think is best for them at that moment. And that may not be in line with what some of the things you're trying to say. And then so it's gonna happen anyway.

• 1:35:36Rich Roll?

  Is there anything else that we should, we should talk about when we're talking about

• 1:35:42Rich Roll?

  representation and inclusion? Like, have I even asked like the right questions? Is there something that I'm missing?

• 1:35:48Speaker 01

  No, I don't think so. I'm, like you said earlier, I'm very much on that, like, I'm going on my journey. And I know that I represent, I know what I represent and I know who I am. And so I intentionally just share because of that. And I'm not, like, I'm not as well versed on all the things that are like the way to move a culture and a movement forward. I just know that, you know, if I can use what I have in my, in the leverage that I have with brands or the relationships that I have with brands, then I'll just try to push in that way. Because if I can maybe risk or like, maybe not jeopardize, but if I can use some of those things that I have to say like, oh, hey, can we get a couple people,

• 1:36:33Speaker 01

  a couple more people invited to this space? That wouldn't necessarily be invited by you.

• 1:36:37Rich Roll?

  But just the fact that there's this, you know, dude with dreadlocks who's like running Western states and every, every other dude kind of looks like the same guy.

• 1:36:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:47Rich Roll?

  You know, a skinny guy with a, probably with a mustache and, you know?

• 1:36:50Speaker 01

  Some good mustaches out there.

• 1:36:51Rich Roll?

  Yeah, and, you know, listen, nothing but love, but, you know, I think it's really powerful. It's, it's like you don't, like, just your being there, you know, is is making a statement louder than anything you could put into words. And it's, it's powerful.

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  Like, if I, if I could say like what I would love to recreate, I guess the feeling of or the thought of was like when I did the Speed Project in early 2025. Going into that thing, what I saw was who does this race? If they do it solo is, is like white and super tatted and really cool looking, you know? But then there was a guy named Malcolm, who, who was the second person to do like the OG 340 mile route. He's a black dude from, from New York.

• 1:37:35Rich Roll?

  Explain what the Speed Project is for people that don't know before we get too deep into this.

• 1:37:40Speaker 01

  Speed Project is a unsanctioned race from Santa Monica Pier to the Las Vegas, the old, the welcome to Las Vegas sign in Las Vegas, Nevada. It's a, the original route that they did was 340 miles on foot. And, but there are no rules as well. So like there's relay teams that do it. It's mainly a relay race.

• 1:38:02Rich Roll?

  Most people do it.

• 1:38:02Speaker 01

  Most people relay.

• 1:38:03Rich Roll?

  By relay, it's, it's 340 miles, right? So how many people solo it? And when you say there's no rules, like, it doesn't even matter like what route you take to get there. Like, if people are taking all different kinds of routes.

• 1:38:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, so there's only, only, like, I guess technically there's only one route. And it's like the OG route. That's like, if you're gonna say you did the OG, this is the route you have to go. Any other thing is shorter if you can find a way to do it while being safe and I don't know, you know, whatever. You just get to go. So it can be, it can be as short as 200, like high, high 200s or as long as 340. Or unless you get lost, it could be more, I guess. But he had done, Malcolm had done the 340 mile route solo. And he was the second person to have done that OG route and not gone like through some of the other ways that people have like carved into this thing now. And he was really instrumental in like, once he found out that I was gonna do it, he like, I met him before in like the marathon scene, but he hit me up and was like, he was really helpful and like for me and my crew.

• 1:39:02Speaker 01

  So he kind of like gave us, gave me the, the like audacity to like continue to push for this and make sure I showed up. Like, one thing he said was like, don't come to this thing and then just kind of fit in with whatever. Be Tommy Runs like all the way, you know?

• 1:39:17Rich Roll?

  That's kind of the ethos of the whole event. Like you said, like lots of tatted guys, like there's a panache to this event. It's very different from the traditional trail world. Like, this is like, it's very punk rock.

• 1:39:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, it is. It feels like, and he helped me by just being him and being, being useful like resource wise and knowledge. But then when I went about it, I made sure like I lived up to like that part. It's like, I've been Tommy Runs this whole time. I did this on the road already. Just make sure you pull up and be you like fully. And we captured it and made a little documentary and everything about it.

• 1:39:51Rich Roll?

  You're saying that with a lot of humility, like that documentary is incredible.

• 1:39:55Speaker 01

  Oh, thank you.

• 1:39:56Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I watched it for a second time this morning. It's really well done. It's beautiful. And it really illustrates the odyssey of this race and the highs and lows. Like, you just go to the depths of your capabilities and you're being tested, you know, to the fullest extent, you know, possible. And it's all illustrated and beautifully, beautifully filmed. So I encourage everybody to, to check out that documentary. I'll link it up in the show notes and stuff.

• 1:40:25Speaker 01

  And it was called, and I called the hero and I knew I was gonna call a hero before. But it was really just, it wasn't necessarily like I'm about to go be a hero. But it was that moment of, that storyline of like, we all have to be like the hero of our, of our own stories at some point. And we all did it at some point, whether we decided to like, I'm gonna lose weight or I'm gonna get sober or I'm gonna start a company. Those moments where we had to decide to like no longer be the villain victim or guide for someone else, we had to be the hero ourselves. And me telling, me doing this and like sharing my sobriety story and walk this whole time was just me deciding at one point I had to be like the hero of this journey. And hopefully people would watch it and decide to be the hero of theirs in some way.

• 1:41:11Speaker 01

  But the way that I shared it intentionally was like, I'm like told the guy, this dude named Olu, he shot it. It was his first time making a feature, like a feature length film.

• 1:41:18Rich Roll?

  Oh, wow.

• 1:41:18Speaker 01

  He did just phenomenal, it was crazy. I'd never had, didn't meet him until the day that we met in Santa Monica. Well, I met him before at TRE. He took some pictures of me. That's how, that's how I knew about him. But spent six days, seven days with us. But I told that story like that openly and show, I made it so, please don't get all the highlights. Like, show all the, all the crap that's like makes it challenging. And then fast forward, the reason I brought it up is because like this year, shout out to dude, young dude named Mitchie Paul from, from, from Boston. He ran, he's the fourth person to do the OG route, a young black guy from Boston. And it was like, he did it because he saw me do it.

• 1:42:00Speaker 01

  And I also felt like that's, it was cool because I also showed everything that I had to show. So it wasn't like I vainly inspired him. I showed him all the shit. And if you feel like you're watching what I'm doing and I share my story, whether it's sobriety or being black in space, content creating or whatever, I want you to be inspired by something I do, but for the right reasons.

• 1:42:25Rich Roll?

  The inspiration doesn't come from this, this idea that you're out crushing it. Like, you're, you're just so beaten up, dude. Like, it's shocking that you finished this race. Like, you're so far away from Vegas and you can't even walk, you know? And you've just got like an insane number of miles left before you're gonna get there. And the inspiration is like, how did he even like complete this thing? Like, you were just absolutely broken.

• 1:42:55Speaker 01

  That's what I wanted to show, because that, to me, is the same story as, as us or me in sobriety. Because you're just like shredded to pieces at some point. And like, how do you continue? Like, how do you keep, keep going? And how do you make, make that decision for yourself, even though like everything's telling you to stop or saying that you can't make it or can't do it?

• 1:43:18Rich Roll?

  So how do you do that?

• 1:43:21Speaker 01

  To me, it's like that. Somewhere you've you've you've made some decision that you're willing to go as far as you possibly can, and then a little bit more. Personally, because, you know, I feel like I owe it to myself to go farther than I thought and dig deeper than I thought I could, because I don't think I'll ever be as low. Even in that whole doc, I'll never be as low as I was in those last like couple of years of sobriety, just never. I don't care if I'm choosing to do this, like it's my, I want to do this. It may be terrible in that moment, but I gotta remind myself that I can go further because like this is what I decided to do.

• 1:44:04Rich Roll?

  To me, what you did and the documentary that you made about that journey is a living, breathing document. It's the embodiment of this idea I believe in that we're all so much more capable than we allow ourselves to believe and that our darkest moments and our depths of despair and our trauma are actually engines of change and transformation.

• 1:44:28Speaker 01

  Yeah. You want, we can redo the documentary, you could narrate it.

• 1:44:32Rich Roll?

  No, it's perfect as it is, dude. Yeah, it really illustrates, those are the themes, you know, that come across for me, that these low moments are not things to be ashamed of, they're things to be leveraged.

• 1:44:46Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:44:48Rich Roll?

  And the way that you do that is the way that you get sober, one day at a time, one foot in front of the other. What's the next right thing to do? What's the contrary action to take? And cultivating this familiarity, this relationship with discomfort as a friend rather than something to avoid.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah, I mean, this like, this choosing the uncomfortable thing to do when you know it's against your lower nature is like, if I could say that to myself over and over, I think I'd still even be a better person. If you can choose to lean into that, like that thing that's saying you really should do this, even though you don't want to, you know, that's what I lacked for so long, you know, and that's why I, you know, essentially like hated myself and who I was and who I was gonna be was just because of this, like, my first thought was always go towards like what's comfortable now, even if it was the most painful choice.

• 1:45:42Rich Roll?

  Mm hmm. That has to be the hardest thing that you've done.

• 1:45:45Speaker 01

  That that distance?

• 1:45:46Rich Roll?

  Yeah, that race in comparison to Western states, or are they all just some version of awful?

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, there are some, there are some version of awful. The Speed Project 340 was was challenging, but it was like, it felt like I was, all the pain was spread out over like a few days instead of like Western states was was challenging, really tough, like in its own right, because it was such a short period of time and you have like a thought of like, when I want to finish this thing. Um, like I wanted to finish in 22 hours and I finished in 2455, which I'm still happy about, but it's like boiling it down to like a day of movement and having like a time goal in in mind is to me just made the Speed Project feel like a little easier in a sense. Um, but it's all, it's all like some version of of crap.

• 1:46:34Rich Roll?

  What is the difference? Like you're a marathon guy, you've done all these marathons for a long time. You're like the guy who's always at every marathon.

• 1:46:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:41Rich Roll?

  And now you're in the trail world, like, how do you put to words like the difference in those experiences? And then secondarily, like, how do you change your training to train for these kinds of races versus marathons?

• 1:46:56Speaker 01

  I guess I've never, I never like looked at it like differently, like showing up and doing this. I I look at it the same because I'm still me wherever I'm gonna go. I just try to look at it the exact same and just share as I'm going along. Um, and just connect and and and bring the presence that I feel like maybe is lacking in the room and like that might be mine, you know, and just making sure that I'm like truthful and honest and like whatever answers or whatever questions I get asked.

• 1:47:21Rich Roll?

  There's this idea, like a marathon is long and it's super hard.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, yeah.

• 1:47:23Rich Roll?

  But, you know, in 240, whether it's, you know, 246 or four and a half hours or six hours, it's gonna be over, right? Like, you're gonna, you're gonna be on this trail for what is gonna feel like a lifetime by comparison.

• 1:47:37Speaker 01

  Yeah. To me, to be honest, like, once I did the Speed Project, I think, I think I kind of started on the deep end, you know?

• 1:47:44Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:44Speaker 01

  I I really, I enjoy like this.

• 1:47:48Rich Roll?

  Your pyramid's upside down.

• 1:47:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, I feel like, and then I'll be down to 50 miles, but um, I feel like I enjoy this, this, I enjoy this like low level of like consistent discomfort in negoti- in like negotiating with yourself. Like, as in a marathon, you do, it is over much quicker and it seems like to me, there's just less opportunity to make a choice to stop. You know, like during a hundred mile race or a hundred K, there's so many exit points, there's so many exit ramps where you could just be like, yeah, I'm done, you know? And you're, you're negotiating with yourself for hours and hours and hours, you know? Out of 24 hours, I probably wanted to, like, it's, I, but I enjoy, it feels like my life.

• 1:48:33Speaker 01

  A hundred miles feels like what 42 years of trying to figure it out, like as I go along and trying to talk to myself the right way and not lean into every negative thought or thing that happens. And so like, when you get to a finish line, it's like you, it's like you re-arrive and like have like re- like shown yourself again that everything that just happened in that race and everything that's happened so far in my life, all still can come together and be a success. And I just don't feel like I had, in marathons, there's just so much faster and it's just kind of a, not a blink of an eye, but it is essentially just over much, it's just over

• 1:49:18Speaker 01

  faster, 24 hours, you're not running a marathon for 24 hours.

• 1:49:21Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:22Speaker 01

  So it's like, it feels like very gratifying to to do a hundred mile or run through these different, you know, races and see different scenes as you go through and views, you know what I mean?

• 1:49:35Rich Roll?

  There's also the highs and lows that you experience, uh, the longer the distance. Like, if you're running a marathon, like, you're gonna go and then you're either gonna, you, maybe you're gonna blow up and like, that's all she wrote. In an ultra, you can feel like it's over and then suddenly something shifts and then you feel good again, you know, like there's, it ebbs and flows in a different kind of way. As you were sharing, I was thinking about, uh, Max Jola's recent performance at Badwater, which is just absolutely insane, like, yeah, like, like bowed, let's all bow down, uh, you know, at at that performance. It's like, when you look at his stats, I don't know if you saw them, like, he's running seven 30s and then he's running eights and and you're like, okay, when's it gonna drop

• 1:50:19Rich Roll?

  down to the 12 minute mile? It it just, he's at like eights consistently the entire time. And I think it was, I don't know if it was mile 35, but like pretty early in the race, like he was like, this is not going well and his, he was having gut issues and he thought it was all over. And then suddenly, when he gets to the hills or what, he has a second wind and like, you know, it just, he comes alive again. Like, there are these kind of mini deaths and rebirths that happen along the way that you're not gonna experience in a marathon. And not for nothing, like, you know, it's 130 degrees out, his body temp is like, he even has his body temp metrics and it goes up to like 101 degrees, like he's essentially running a fever, you know?

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:51:00Rich Roll?

  And his heart rate never goes over like 138, like, it's just, like, that is a bananas performance.

• 1:51:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I text him after that and was like, hey, congrats, bro. How you feeling? And he said, that race took everything that I had.

• 1:51:12Rich Roll?

  I can't imagine. And, you know, nobody has won that race without doing some version of a run walk method and he never walked the entire way.

• 1:51:21Speaker 01

  Insane.

• 1:51:21Rich Roll?

  He only stopped to like change his shoes or whatever, like, that is just like the next level. And that's what continues to convince me that, you know, this is such a new sport. And even when we see these outrageous breakthrough performances, like, I think we're still at the beginning of seeing what's actually possible. And the longer the distance, the bigger the delta between like, you know, who's winning now and and who's gonna be winning, you know, what we're gonna see in five or 10 years from now, you know?

• 1:51:47Speaker 01

  Like with the UTMB coming up, like, I'm really interested to see like what happens there, you know? It just seems like, since I just started watching or looking in the trail even, it's just like the.

• 1:51:59Speaker 01

  The like advancements in like the the gains that have that have happened over like a year's time are just really crazy. Um, and it's just fun to watch. It's fun to watch. Like, these people are, including Max, like, these people are ridiculous people.

• 1:52:12Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:52:13Speaker 01

  Like, this, the guy who won Western, what, he finished in sub fourteen or something like that?

• 1:52:18Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, it's, it's.

• 1:52:19Speaker 01

  Yeah, sub fourteen. Three, three people finished.

• 1:52:21Rich Roll?

  The pace at which people are running Western States now that are winning is just is off the rails.

• 1:52:25Speaker 01

  Al's out there. I know it's not like, apparently it's not the hardest.

• 1:52:28Rich Roll?

  Forty-six marathoner, and it took you, uh, you know, twenty-four plus hours to finish this thing.

• 1:52:33Speaker 01

  Some of the stuff that these people ran up at mile ninety-something, it, like, while I was running, I'm like, this is ridiculous. Like, I got my friend Ern out there, he'd never been out there, he'd never seen it. He's like, I can't believe you're still, you're still moving. But, yeah, these races are just, they're, they're beautiful in their own, like, right? Like, if you're, if you are, like, interested in, like, these longer distances, it's a journey. Like, it's a, it's, like you said, like, the highs and lows, the lows are long, and you have to, like, manage your way through those. And that's why I think I like it, because I spent so mu- so much of my life kinda at this low energy, or not low energy, but like, low, like, state of mind, that, like, it's kinda fun to, to be there and still, and have to, like, negotiate through those, because you

• 1:53:17Speaker 01

  know it's gonna change. And it's not life or death if it doesn't. You know, like, you can, you can stop if you need to, and, you know, you can DNF this. And the one thing about trail that's really cool is, like, DNF is not like some big shameful thing. Like, if you, if you don't finish a marathon, the road scene is like more like, like, oh dang, what happened? Like, you, you know, if you don't, if you DNF a hundred milers, like, okay, well, next year, you know?

• 1:53:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, I mean, sometimes it's just not gonna happen.

• 1:53:41Speaker 01

  It just happens. But, it's just been, it's been really fun. And, and I'm gonna run marathons still. Like, I'm actually gonna be running Berlin. I'm not gonna be racing it, because I'm not, like, fit like that, but I'll be running it. And I'm always gonna be around the marathon scene, because it's just, it's still so fun. It's still, like, that's where, like, my people are at, and that's where I feel like that's where I started at. But I definitely wanna keep pushing in the trail and, like, just see, I wanna see where I can go. Like, you know, helping, you know, increase visibility is one thing, but then I also would love to see, like, what me, a couple of years from now, running a hundred Ks, a hundred milers, like, I wonder what that looks like.

• 1:54:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:16Speaker 01

  Finish time-wise.

• 1:54:17Rich Roll?

  Uh, we left the training part dangling.

• 1:54:19Speaker 01

  Okay, training was.

• 1:54:20Rich Roll?

  Difference in training.

• 1:54:21Speaker 01

  Training was cool. Like, big shout out to my coach, Melissa Johnson White. She's been, she, I got her before my first marathon in two thousand and nineteen. So she's been with me all these years, through all these different races, back-to-back races, TSP. So it's like, she literally just ramped up the numbers and changed some, like, the, the, like, the concepts of a workout. And a lot of it was mu- much more, instead of trying to hit this marathon pace for a ten-mile, you know, progression run, it's more about, like, okay, you're going outside, and you're gonna be outside for four hours today.

• 1:54:51Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 1:54:51Speaker 01

  And just get outside and get moving. And the miles are much, it's obviously, the, the weekly miles is crazy high.

• 1:54:56Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:54:57Speaker 01

  But at the same time.

• 1:54:58Rich Roll?

  Higher volume, lower intensity.

• 1:54:59Speaker 01

  Yeah, just, you're just out there. And we still did, like, workouts, like, to turn over to, to make, to make sure it's not boring. But she's done a really great job of, like, hearing what I wanted to do, believing that I, that I would put in the work to do it, and then, and just give me a plan, and, like, letting me do my thing.

• 1:55:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:16Speaker 01

  Um, so the training for it is just slower, longer, way more miles. I think for, for Western States, I think I was, like, a couple of weeks over a hundred. Um, but a lot of, like, just time outside. And I enjoy just not necessarily having to go be obsessive over a pace for sixteen weeks of training.

• 1:55:36Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Similar to myself, your, your influence sort of crisscrosses, uh, recovery with running.

• 1:55:44Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:55:44Rich Roll?

  And that means that, like me, you're also probably getting, um, a lot of DMs from people, uh, you know, with questions about these things. And one of the things that I've, that I'm curious about, uh, that I've experienced is, uh, a fair amount of confusion that conflates these two things. Like, in other words, that the recovery is, is related to running, uh, in a way that, like, misrepresents, like, what sobriety is. Like, oh, if I just start running, like, that's the solution to my addiction problem? Versus, like, what you and I both know, that it's anchored in, like, working this program. And that's something that's very different and takes priority over the running. The

• 1:56:26Rich Roll?

  running is a byproduct of putting in the work in the rooms of recovery and participating in, in sobriety. But I would imagine that you probably get, you know, like, oh, like, I'm, I'm struggling with this, but like, I've quit drinking, and now I'm, I'm running, but there's, like, no program there.

• 1:56:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:56:41Rich Roll?

  Like, how do you respond to those people or try to be helpful, uh, for people who are either struggling with sobriety or sober curious, and also running curious? You know, it's sort of like, let's take care of the sobriety thing first, like, and then we can get to the running part later.

• 1:56:56Speaker 01

  I think exactly that. Like, I, I remind people, um, that they're, they wouldn't know who I am, or they wouldn't be DMing me if it wasn't for sobriety, period. I started running a year after. So a lot of times, like, oh, oh, people like to, like, if you do it a podcast or an interview or something like that, they'll try to go, oh, he was, you know, running to stay sober. And I, like, I make them change.

• 1:57:19Rich Roll?

  Or, or running is how you got sober.

• 1:57:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, like, I make them change that, because, like, I wouldn't, I, there wouldn't be any running if I didn't get sober. And so I'll just try to, like, remind people while they're trying to figure their thing out. I remind them what is most important to me. And my, and most important to me is sobriety, because without that, I wouldn't be here. It's as simple as that. Like, I can't necessarily, I mean, I can say, check out a meeting or whatever, but at the same time, like, I just wanna make sure that whoever's talking to me understands, like, what I put as a priority.

• 1:57:47Rich Roll?

  Mm-hmm.

• 1:57:48Speaker 01

  So that they can maybe look at that and think, okay, maybe I am using this as something that is unsustainable. Because what if you get hurt? What if you don't like running after six months or whatever? Are you back, that means you're back to drinking or back to whatever. Um, so I just say, like, hey, priority is this, is a sobriety. Do that, and everything else, and do that for yourself, not for anybody else. Be sober for you, and then everybody else benefits from that. And the running thing, or if you're the cycle or whatever it is, that's all second or third or whatever, but never first.

• 1:58:20Rich Roll?

  It's complimentary, though. You know, it, it, it is putting the principles into action. Like, you have to take contrary action. You have to take things one day at a time. You know, it's hu- it's, it's an exercise in humility, because you're never gonna, you know, you're never gonna beat the mountain, and you're never gonna beat yourself, and there's always gonna be other people faster than you. And, uh, and it's also an exercise in confronting yourself honestly. You know, like, you can't participate in one of these races, especially the really long ones, or, or any race for that matter, really, and not have, uh, your denial upended. You know what I mean? Because you're gonna meet yourself where you are in, in the truest version of yourself. And that's an opportunity for

• 1:59:02Rich Roll?

  growth. Like, just, like, how can I move towards this thing that is uncomfortable? It's gonna teach me something, and failure is good, because I can learn from that, uh, and I can grow as a result of these experiences. So it's not that running is, uh, you know, something totally detached from sobriety. And I think it's why so many people in recovery gravitate towards endurance sports, because it is, it's almost like a spiritual practice on some level.

• 1:59:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, you just, like, you just have so much time to, to, to work through these things, like, in movement. But if you're, some of these longer races, like you said, there's so many, um, you meet yourself, different versions of yourself so many different times in these races. If you wanna finish and keep going, you do have to, like, have that conversation with yourself. I mean, you're out there sometimes by yourself for hours.

• 1:59:50Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:50Speaker 01

  And you have plenty of opportunity to, to beat yourself up if you want, and talk crap to yourself, or, and/or continue.

• 1:59:58Rich Roll?

  Or, or, like, change that negative internal.

• 2:00:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:02Rich Roll?

  Narration.

• 2:00:02Speaker 01

  And then, but then that lasts for twenty minutes sometimes. Like, you, you feel like a high for twenty minutes, and you're back to that low again, because something reminds you of the thing that was bothering you before.

• 2:00:11Rich Roll?

  Right.

• 2:00:11Speaker 01

  So it's, it's, it's ther- it's therapeutic. I was gonna say it's therapy, but it's therapeutic in a way, just to, to know that you are, you've signed yourself up for a task that is going to require you to, to dig so deep, you know, to continue at certain moments.

• 2:00:34Speaker 01

  That when you finish, it just, it feels like you, you're a different person on the other side of these races, if you allow it. Cause you could go through and kind of, you know, only look at the highs and go like, okay, I'm great. But I also, it, that's pointless. That's also like when people are sober and they're only just looking at the, the fancy stuff that they get to tell people how many, like how long they've been sober.

• 2:00:55Rich Roll?

  They, they are transformative experiences. Like each and every one of them is like its own hero's journey.

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 2:01:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah.

• 2:01:01Speaker 01

  And I'm just, I'm grateful that, like, I'm grateful that started backwards and did the T S B thing first. But I'm just like, I'm so grateful to like, to be out there. Like I, when I was, when I was in, at Western, I had planned on being done before the sun rose. But like, the one of the most beautiful moments of that race was after like coming to terms with like, I wasn't having the day that I wanted to have around like 19 or 20 hours in, that I was gonna, I was gonna miss this goal of the 22 hour thing. I may, maybe even the 24 hour, the sub 24. Like, once I like, in motion, I was able to like, keep moving forward, but then also like grapple with that disappointment potentially and rephrase and reframe, like what life was at that second or that time. Got to this point where the

• 2:01:46Speaker 01

  sun rose that I didn't think I was gonna see. And it was the most beautiful moment and like joyful moment of the race. When I looked around and saw like this sun rising over the mountain. And that to me is like, we all thought we were gonna be somewhere different or somewhere better at this point. But if you stop thinking about like the future or the lack of the future that you thought you wanted, and really stay like exactly where you are, like be where your feet are and be in this moment, there's so many beautiful things like right in front of us. And we're experiencing so many things to be grateful for, even in the midst of like, the most terrible or tough moments of our lives. There's always something like right there that we can be eternally grateful for. And running

• 2:02:31Speaker 01

  to me, shows me that, in much more like physical sense. And then I get to go home and try to figure out like how, what I learned from that moment. And then how can I actually like live that out in a day to day basis? And maybe even like impart some wisdom like on to my kids first, and then maybe other people after.

• 2:02:48Rich Roll?

  It's a very elaborate, extensive gratitude practice, you know? But that opportunity to frame it, uh, you know, having agency over how you, you know, decide, uh, whether this was a good or a bad experience, whether or not it went your way or not. Like another example of that is Molly Seidel, who Olympic marathon, like the elite of the elite of the elite, who like, is like, okay, now I'm going into trail. And, you know, there isn't that much time or distance between when she was just like, you know, the world's best, essentially. Uh, and things didn't go her way at Western states. She ends up finishing around the same time you do. I don't know exactly, like in the same range, right? That

• 2:03:28Rich Roll?

  could be chalked up as like a failure or like, oh, turns out like, the Olympic marathon, like that doesn't translate on the trail. But it's actually a story of triumph, because almost anybody else in her shoes would have pulled out. And she's like, I am finishing this thing. And it was just the most kind of courageous, you know, kind of statement that she could make and ends up being this inspirational story, rather than like an example of failing.

• 2:03:56Speaker 01

  I mean, to me, it just shows, it shows me where, like, where her ego lies. And her ego is, is more so on the like, I'm gonna finish what I started thing, as opposed to like an ego of what people are gonna think of, of this time. Because like you said, if somebody in her shoes, pulling the plug and then just signing up for a different race, you know, and just running as a professional. But I saw that and like huge hats off to her, cause a lot of people that were elites and pros dropped out that day. And no like shame in that. They made the decision that works for them. But she signed on and was like, no, I'm gonna, I'm finishing. And who cares what everybody else thinks, as long as she crossed that finish line and was proud of herself and felt like she.

• 2:04:39Rich Roll?

  Yeah, she was. So like, it looked like a very cathartic experience for her.

• 2:04:43Speaker 01

  Yeah. And, and I, I love that. Like, that's, I mean, cause that's more realistic to all of us anyway. The perfect race day, like happens for who? You know, like, very, very rarely, even on the marathon side, you don't like strike a perfect race all the time. Her having that moment and deciding to continue and push through and then share it and let it just be a thing and go on pods and talk about it. That's like, that's what we're doing is, is living life and trying to do it to the best of our ability and, and framing it or sharing it in a way that's like authentic, true and like potentially inspirational.

• 2:05:16Rich Roll?

  Yeah. Um, all right. Uh, I got a few, uh, lightning round questions for you.

• 2:05:21Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:05:22Rich Roll?

  Tommy.

• 2:05:23Speaker 01

  Rich.

• 2:05:25Rich Roll?

  What are you running towards? And more importantly, what are you running away from?

• 2:05:32Speaker 01

  I'm running towards whatever's in the future. It's like, I'll leave it at that cause I don't know what's out there. Um, I'm running away from the person, the version of me that was scared of the future.

• 2:05:47Rich Roll?

  And once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. You can hide, you know, in this world, uh, very easily, like, and, and, and be shrouded in, in praise and external validation for doing these races. You know, we all have things that we avoid and we can use any device, uh, to make people think that we're not avoiding them. So what is the next mountain that you have to climb? Not running wise, but like, personal growth wise, or like, like spiritually, or like in terms of, you know, your psychological wellbeing? Cause the work is never done, right? We know this.

• 2:06:27Speaker 01

  Um, for, just like my own personal, like internal work, is more, for me, it's about like, for me, it's about like loving myself, you know, enough to, um, align like my actual decisions on a day to day basis. And, or even like some of the things that I am aiming for, wanna do or share with the world, or, all of those things are based in like how much will I allow myself to like be proud and love myself, you know? And, cause some of this stuff, whether I wanna like sit here and be cool or not, is based in validation in a sense, you know, like, I would run these races, I think, without people saying

• 2:07:12Speaker 01

  it's cool. But at the same time, that's also part of the thing that's like feeding, like, my will to do more. And somewhere under there is this, is like, is this kid that's like, not good enough. Um, and

• 2:07:35Speaker 01

  I just wanna make sure that like, as I'm growing, that I'm actually like checking that version of me and bringing that like up to speed to like, not just preach a story that's inspirational, but like, live a life that like, that I'm actually proud of, that if everything went away, like I'd still be really cool with it and I would still keep going forward.

• 2:08:01Rich Roll?

  Beautiful, man. I love that answer. All right. The rest of these are, are silly fun ones.

• 2:08:07Speaker 01

  That was not.

• 2:08:08Rich Roll?

  That was a heavy, that was a heavy one. That wasn't really a speed round question, was it?

• 2:08:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay, thanks.

• 2:08:12Rich Roll?

  I lied to you. What is the appropriate reaction when you wave at a fellow runner and they don't wave back?

• 2:08:20Speaker 01

  The appropriate reaction of you passing a runner, unless you're like in Central Park, where there's like a thousand people running, you wave back. You wave or wave back, or nod or something, like acknowledge each other. It's just human. It's a thing, you know? If you see me and I wave at you and we've made eye contact and I saw that you saw me wave and you don't wave, I think that's just, that's just, that's just rude on all levels.

• 2:08:43Rich Roll?

  What's just punishment for the person?

• 2:08:45Speaker 01

  Straight to jail. Straight to jail. So yeah, so yeah, PR project.

• 2:08:49Rich Roll?

  All right, we're talking truth here.

• 2:08:50Speaker 01

  Run culture.

• 2:08:52Rich Roll?

  Are there too many run clubs? Have we maxed out on run clubs?

• 2:08:56Speaker 01

  Nah, I won't say that. I won't say, I don't think we've maxed out on run clubs. I feel like maybe, um, maybe we've maxed out on some of the same type of run clubs, but I think that if you're, if you're into like Zelda and you got a Zelda run club, great. If you're a trail guy or girl or whatever, you wanna run, do a trail run club, do it. I think that, um, we can't like police or people gathering for whatever reason they wanna gather.

• 2:09:20Rich Roll?

  Training with carbon plated shoes. Hell yeah, or super cringe?

• 2:09:25Speaker 01

  Hell yeah.

• 2:09:26Rich Roll?

  Okay, why?

• 2:09:28Speaker 01

  Why not?

• 2:09:28Rich Roll?

  It's more fun.

• 2:09:29Speaker 01

  It's more fun.

• 2:09:30Rich Roll?

  You run faster.

• 2:09:31Speaker 01

  You know, or just like, I mean, they're built for fast and speed, but they're also built in a way that like saves your legs. I mean, it may not be super healthy to always run in them. I'm not sure. I'm not a scientist. I've heard people talk about it different ways. But I think that like some of the long runs that I have, it's like, I'll, I'll bring out some super shoes and carbon plated shoes and figure out how to get through this run and have a good day and put the miles in. And I see nothing wrong with it.

• 2:09:55Rich Roll?

  I was in New York, uh, a little while back and did this podcast with Chris Chavez and Malcolm Gladwell. And before we started taping, Malcolm was just talking, he's like, I love, I love training in carbon plated shoes. Cause like, also when you're older, like, you know, you recover faster.

• 2:10:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:10Rich Roll?

  All right, good. You're on the record on that.

• 2:10:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 2:10:12Rich Roll?

  Um, what is a real runner?

• 2:10:16Speaker 01

  Somebody that runs. If you run, to me, if you run once a month or week, whatever, you're a runner. If you can, if you have a practice, uh, your movement practice is running, no matter how often you do it, or how fast or slow you do it, you're a runner.

• 2:10:31Rich Roll?

  Related question, also related to the run club question. What do you make of the fashion explosion in running right now? Cause I'm of two minds when it comes to this. Like, I think it's cool. Like I, I'm like excited about like some like flair coming into the scene.

• 2:10:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:10:49Rich Roll?

  And some interesting, you know, brands that are, uh, trying to do things a little bit differently. Um, it just makes it feel like more vibrant and fun. But it also could be something that a new, you know, quote unquote, real runner might find intimidating. Like it's a price of entry. Like if I don't, if I show up to my run club and I don't have the right socks, or you know, my kid is like, you know, not, not quite there. Like I don't feel, like I feel insecure, rather than like putting out a welcome mat where everybody feels comfortable showing up.

• 2:11:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, to be honest, I don't think I've thought about it like that. Um, that's interesting. And I feel like that's obviously happening somewhere. But I think it's all good. Um, I feel like that's a person thing, you know? If you pull up to a run club and they've created an atmosphere of, of like,

• 2:11:44Speaker 01

  Being a super welcome and making sure people feel like they belong there. I don't think it really matters what you have on. But if you've allowed yourself to be like more high school and you've, there's clicks in that thing and they make people inadvertently feel uncomfortable.

• 2:11:59Rich Roll?

  All the run clubs, it can be that kind of like high school clique. So I think there's a hierarchy and all that.

• 2:12:04Speaker 01

  And that's just, that just rely, that's, that the weight is on the shoulders of the run club leaders, you know? And, and a lot of them know that and they work hard to make sure that that doesn't happen. As often as it probably could, if there wasn't somebody that kind of policing that energy. And that's just like, that's why I was just like, never start a run club. Like, like, I don't want to be responsible for all these different things. And probably if I started a run club, nobody would pull up anyway, but.

• 2:12:28Rich Roll?

  Yeah, it, it, it seems like it's starting to come, look more like what cycling has always been like cycling. Like I remember the first time I wanted to buy a bike and I went into a bike shop. Like I was so intimidated, you know, it's like, it's scary. And it's sort of like, if you don't really know, you know, like you don't feel like you can even ask a question. And there's these group rides and you know, there's a certain sock height and like you got, there are all kinds of like unwritten rules. And yeah, are your, are your, are your shades on the inside or the outside of the?

• 2:12:59Speaker 01

  Which one is right?

• 2:12:59Rich Roll?

  The outside.

• 2:13:01Speaker 01

  Outside, okay.

• 2:13:01Rich Roll?

  Yeah, okay. Yeah, and it, it's ridiculous, right? And I can see like running, moving in that direction with all these clubs and that concerns me a little bit. So while also appreciating that like you're taking your kit seriously in your presentation and there's a fashion thing to it. And that makes it fun and interesting, albeit an expensive hobby.

• 2:13:23Speaker 01

  I think that partially like the, the coolness factor of it and like these new things. I think that's also why we're seeing such a boom because it does look cool. And I think for certain communities, the, the, a cool factor is an invitation. You know, like when I first started running, I went into a store and there, I was asking for the right shoes and they handed me two pairs of shoes. I thought were just horrendous. And I'm like, all right, dang, I, I'm like, oh man, I left my wallet in the car. Cause I'm too embarrassed to say that I didn't like them. So I just walked out the store and this didn't go back into the store and I like ordered some shoes online that I thought looked better. And I think that like some of the, the, the, the vibe for sure, if you can make something look cool, people will wanna, wanna like come to it sometimes.

• 2:14:05Speaker 01

  And yeah, that's an intrigue too. Like, oh, I can, I can run for my health.

• 2:14:10Rich Roll?

  Wear that super lame stuff that everyone else is wearing. I can wear this.

• 2:14:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, like if I can get a fit off at the, at the run club and I'm also healthy and meeting people that are doing the same thing. That's kind of cool, you know, like that's like, not just cool, but like that's fun and that's like, that's positive. So I think it's just really just someone needs to police or watch like that, that, that thing that could make people not want to be there. And if, and if that happens, that's also why there's other run clubs. Like you come to run club and you're like, this is really fun and great, but there's like 10 of us that just don't feel like this is our thing. Then that's why you, people have started other run clubs like down the street.

• 2:14:45Rich Roll?

  Two more. This one is also related to the question of what is a real runner? Are you following Wiz Khalifa's running journey? Cause this is the best thing to happen to running in a long time. Like I am so in love like with what that guy is doing right now and the way that he's sharing it on social media. I think it's fantastic.

• 2:15:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's, he's, he's, that's the next, the next guest it has to be.

• 2:15:08Rich Roll?

  I'm trying.

• 2:15:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, yes, that is true.

• 2:15:12Rich Roll?

  You've done it like.

• 2:15:13Speaker 01

  So whenever.

• 2:15:14Rich Roll?

  10 times in a row now. And I'm like, oh, this, he's, he's like, I'm on his groove with this.

• 2:15:19Speaker 01

  I'm in there, bro. I've seen the movie twice.

• 2:15:21Rich Roll?

  Me too.

• 2:15:21Speaker 01

  Um, I think I'm gonna try, I'm gonna go for three, nine hours of my life is, is a good investment.

• 2:15:26Rich Roll?

  I think you should just like, this is my thing. I just always use this. I always use this score for every time I make.

• 2:15:31Speaker 01

  Every time, like all the videos that you mentioned, like all the ones that I like, I'm talking, you know? I don't normally talk directly to the camera as much as like I might, I've, I've used to. I've always just been like running and using like just different music. But I feel like it's a funny, it's a funny like score to like me talking about something silly, like growing a mustache or like, do people want to see my toes?

• 2:15:50Rich Roll?

  And you have this like epic, you know?

• 2:15:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. So it's like, I think I'm gonna, I'll make, I'll make a video and I'm gonna, I'm gonna tag you. And I'll be talking about, you know, the fact that like I just sat down with you and I'll use the score. Is that cool?

• 2:16:04Rich Roll?

  Yeah, as long as I can like post a meme in response.

• 2:16:08Speaker 01

  Please.

• 2:16:08Rich Roll?

  All right.

• 2:16:09Speaker 01

  I'll, I'll, I'll allow that.

• 2:16:10Rich Roll?

  All right, cool. This was great, man. Uh, super fun. Uh, I think we covered a lot. Uh, wow, we've been going a long time. You're amazing. I'm, I've got nothing but love for the journey that you're on and I'm always behind your back. Spitting wind in your sails, my friend.

• 2:16:27Speaker 01

  I appreciate that.

• 2:16:28Rich Roll?

  You're a beautiful representation of being a real runner. And I think the mission you're on is, is, is beautiful as well, auditory. So thanks for sharing with me today.

• 2:16:39Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 2:16:40Rich Roll?

  If people want to connect with you, Instagram, obviously you got your podcast. Where do you want to point people?

• 2:16:46Speaker 01

  Instagram, Tommy Runs on Instagram. I'm sure you'll tag it, but T O M M I E underscore R U N Z on Instagram. And then a big thing that like we're pushing a lot, you'll see there as well as PR project, that's me, Gary and Aaron. We, we sit down every other week and talk about all the things running and then we do some fun stuff. But that's super important to me because it's like, it's an extension of me and, but it's, it's my friends and we, we represent different cultures that aren't normally seen in that like podcast world. And communicating for and about brands and about running culture. So that's super important right now. I think those are the two places to find it. Got a couple. Short and longer documentaries on, on, on YouTube. Check those out and, and hit me up if you want a shirt too.

• 2:17:30Speaker 01

  Cause that's a statement that I, that I want to continue to make and hopefully it turns into a movement that means something.

• 2:17:35Rich Roll?

  You can buy that on your website.

• 2:17:37Speaker 01

  My website, tommyruns.com. Yeah, and I appreciate this opportunity to be, to sit here with you and talk and, and do it in a way that like, that just feels like the timing is right for it. And I can't wait to see what's next. So just ask everybody to kind of tap in as I announce things. If you rock with me or you're, you're liking where I'm going, support in some way.

• 2:17:59Rich Roll?

  Right on, man. Excellent. Have a great time at UTMB.

• 2:18:02Speaker 01

  I will.

• 2:18:03Rich Roll?

  All right, dude. Until next time. Peace.

• 2:18:06Speaker 01

  Play it. You say it still, sweet.

• 2:18:08Rich Roll?

  I know.

• 2:18:15Speaker 01

  That just feels like the timing is right for it and I can't wait to see what's next. So just ask everybody to kind of tap in as I announce things. If you rock with me or you're, you're liking where I'm going, support in some way.

• 2:18:27Rich Roll?

  Right on, man. Excellent. Have a great time at UTMB.

• 2:18:30Speaker 01

  I will.

• 2:18:31Rich Roll?

  All right, dude. Until next time. Peace.

• 2:18:34Speaker 01

  Play it. You say it still, sweet.

• 2:18:36Rich Roll?

  I know.