‘Brokeback Mountain’ With Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris

The Ringer’s Bill Simmons and Wesley Morris drive 14 hours from Texas to Wyoming to rewatch Ang Lee’s 2005 masterpiece ‘Brokeback Mountain’ starring Heath Ledger, Jake Gyllenhaal, Michelle Williams, and Anne Hathaway. Producers: Craig Horlbeck, Ronak Nair, and Chris Wohlers Book your next business trip at holidayinn.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Bill Simmons?

  This episode is brought to you by Trivia. Sweeteners are like movies. The best ones don't leave an aftertaste. That's why Trivia Allolos Plus Stevia Sweetener and Monk Fruit Sweetener is a smooth, balanced tri blend that delivers sugar like sweetness with zero calories per serving and no aftertaste. If you're looking for a better way to enjoy sweetness with zero calories per serving, you really need to try Trivia Allolos Plus Stevia Sweetener and Monk Fruit Sweetener. Available online and nationwide at Kroger, Target, and your favorite local grocery retailer. The Rewatchables is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network where you cannot find Wesley Morris's podcast Cannonball, which you just launched like six weeks ago. Of course, you didn't tell me.

• 0:45Speaker 01

  I didn't tell anybody.

• 0:46Bill Simmons?

  I found out through the grapevine.

• 0:47Speaker 01

  They're, they're really trying to get me to tell people because I am a bad self promoter.

• 0:52Bill Simmons?

  Well, now we're gonna know.

• 0:53Speaker 01

  Many people make this show. I don't really tell anybody.

• 0:56Bill Simmons?

  Now, this is promotion because you're on the Rewatchables. We're in a brand new studio. I'm very excited about it.

• 1:03Speaker 01

  I can't believe this. I might not even go back to New York because what the expletive? This is beautiful.

• 1:11Bill Simmons?

  I thought about wearing shorts for the first episode, but then I realized nobody wanted to see my knees.

• 1:16Speaker 01

  You did change your pants, I will say.

• 1:18Bill Simmons?

  I did, I put pants on.

• 1:20Speaker 01

  The shorts were fine, just to be clear. Nobody was taking shots at your legs.

• 1:24Bill Simmons?

  So we should mention, when we launched the Ringer Podcast Network with my podcast in the first week of October 2015.

• 1:33Speaker 01

  I remember it well.

• 1:34Bill Simmons?

  Only four months after we stopped working together, five months after we stopped working together at Grantland, and I was able, I had to wait out. And then on October 1st, I could launch my podcast. I did one with Sal because we had missed the first few. My second one, you came into my pool house and we did a podcast and you were my first guest. And now in this brand new studio that we're going to have, you were the first guest of this one.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  Do you remember what we talked about?

• 1:57Bill Simmons?

  What did we talk about?

• 1:58Speaker 01

  I believe it was the Ben Affleck, Justin Timberlake gambling movie. I believe that came up.

• 2:07Bill Simmons?

  Well, this movie is way better than that. One of the best movies in 21st century.

• 2:12Speaker 01

  This was a, we watched it and may never watch it again.

• 2:15Bill Simmons?

  Well, 20th anniversary of Brokeback Mountain, and we're going to talk about it right after this.

• 2:28Bill Simmons?

  You know, it could be like this, just like this always. This thing grabs hold of us in the wrong place, we're dead.

• 2:38Bill Simmons?

  If you can't fix it, you've got to stand it.

• 2:42Speaker 02

  I wish I knew how to quit you.

• 2:54Bill Simmons?

  This episode of the Rewatchable is presented by Holiday Inn by IHG. It's a new day for a new stay at Holiday Inn for business travelers. Do you count as a business traveler, Sean?

• 3:03Speaker 01

  Sure, sometimes.

• 3:04Bill Simmons?

  Okay. With modern spaces for meeting and working, plus delicious dining for breakfast, happy hour. Do you eat breakfast, Sean?

• 3:09Speaker 01

  I do. I had an apple and a breakfast bar this morning.

• 3:12Bill Simmons?

  Oh, interesting. I don't eat any breakfast. But I do love happy hour and dinner. They have that, too. Give everything you need to get your work done. Give your everyday business travel an upgrade. Book your next business trip at Holiday Inn by IHG. Visit holidayinn.com to book your stay.

• 3:42Bill Simmons?

  All right, Brokeback Mountain 20 years ago. This summer, Heath Ledger died about three years after it came out. And this was already, I think, in the conversation for one of the, I don't know, 20, 25 best movies of the century. But the Heath Ledger piece has changed the context. There's so many ways to talk about this movie and so many ways to feel about it in 2025. How we felt about it in 2005, all the things it meant. But watching it 20 years later, the Heath Ledger performance was the thing that jumped out because it's such a great performance.

• 4:18Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:19Bill Simmons?

  And you just see the potential of this whole career that we should still be enjoying. And by the end of the decade, he's gone.

• 4:26Speaker 01

  Yep. I mean, terrible. And, well, you know, I have really...

• 4:33Speaker 01

  I had not watched this movie in its entirety since it came out, since the period in which it was a thing.

• 4:41Bill Simmons?

  And you must have written about it, right?

• 4:42Speaker 01

  I wrote about it. I think I wrote, the only thing I think I wrote about it was in the aftermath of the Oscars.

• 4:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  And it's losing to Crash, which we'll talk about. But I think that's the only time. And I will say I was 20, what was that, 27, 28? And I wasn't, I wasn't ready for, I don't think I was ready to receive, I was 29 when this movie came out. And I don't, I was disappointed that there wasn't more fucking. I distinctly remember that. And I think because I was young and single, and I was having a lot of great sexual adventures with, with, and with the Enes Del Mars of the world, I should say.

• 5:34Speaker 01

  They weren't like, they weren't ranchers, but they did other things in the Boston area.

• 5:40Bill Simmons?

  I didn't think you'd dial it up this fast. Sorry, I'm ready. I just, I'm just, I'm just remembering.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  I'm just remembering what my life was like. And I remember thinking, like a lot of people probably, like, this isn't hot enough. I want, I want a hotter movie.

• 5:57Bill Simmons?

  Cause you felt like Hollywood hadn't really gone here with a big market movie like this and they were finally doing it. So you wanted them to push the envelope as much as they could.

• 6:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think, and I'm, I'm gonna go to hell for saying this, and I, I now know better. And also, just to be clear, I was a serious film critic at this time. But I'm speaking as a human civilian person who also had a job to type for a living.

• 6:24Speaker 01

  I think, I think there's a part of me that was like, I wonder what the Joel Schumacher version of this movie would have been like.

• 6:29Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my God.

• 6:30Speaker 01

  I know.

• 6:30Bill Simmons?

  With Machine? Machine was so far.

• 6:33Speaker 01

  Straight to hell.

• 6:35Bill Simmons?

  Turns into a snuff film for the second half.

• 6:37Speaker 01

  Right. But I mean, I think, I don't know, I'm disappointed, I was disappointed in the movie. And now, having seen it.

• 6:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, how'd you feel about it this time?

• 6:47Speaker 01

  Low these years later, I'm disappointed in myself.

• 6:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 6:50Speaker 01

  Um, oh my God, what an adult movie. What, I mean, sorry, what a, what a movie for adults this is. It is not an adult movie, to, to be clear, I just, that was my issue before. Um, I think it is such a patient movie that is so much more about like being able to love.

• 7:13Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 7:13Speaker 01

  And wanting, wanting to both be loved and to be in love.

• 7:20Speaker 01

  With all these really subtle, real world, human questions and concerns, I don't know. I mean, wait, wait, do you remember when you saw it? I saw it with an audience for the first time at the Coolidge. In 2005, December of 2005.

• 7:35Bill Simmons?

  I didn't see it in the theater. I saw it, uh, I saw it as a pay-per-view.

• 7:39Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 7:40Bill Simmons?

  With my wife. We didn't, we had just had, my daughter was born that year and we weren't like, there weren't a lot of couple movies and we wanted to see it together. So we saw it, uh, as a pay-per-view. And, you know, like a big part of the movie and the marketing and just the, the word of mouth with it was like the sex scene. And these two pretty famous young actors and, oh my God, they have like sex in this and there's a, and you kind of knew it was coming. It was almost like the, uh, the shark in Jaws and now all these years later.

• 8:11Speaker 01

  The shark in Jaws?

• 8:13Bill Simmons?

  The shark's coming at some point, you knew the scene was coming.

• 8:16Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 8:16Bill Simmons?

  Now 20 years later, it's like, this is all over the place. And you, you think like, I don't want to use the word cutting edge, but it just was a little ahead of its time with, with what it was trying to do for a bigger market. That now is, is just all, you could go to Amazon, you go to Netflix, you can see it in a million movies.

• 8:32Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 8:33Bill Simmons?

  Pretty tame compared to what's out there now.

• 8:36Speaker 01

  I think that the, the radical, I think that we kind of have to go back to 2005 for a second.

• 8:43Bill Simmons?

  Please do, because it's, it's, it was a big part of the marketing of the movie. It's a big part of why it didn't win the Oscar. I think this movie wins the Oscar hands down now.

• 8:51Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. I mean, if you think about what's not going on in Moonlight, for instance, right? Um, like, and I didn't leave Moonlight being like, there's not enough fucking in Moonlight, like. Wesley, you are missing the point here.

• 9:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:05Speaker 01

  Um, you don't need that because that's not what the movie's about. And well, I have mixed feelings about that, but about, about the depiction of sex, both in this movie and in general between men.

• 9:22Speaker 01

  But in 2005, the revolutionary aspect of this movie was that you just weren't to play a quote, regular guy who was also, who found himself in love with a man.

• 9:37Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 9:37Speaker 01

  To find the actors to play these parts challenging.

• 9:43Speaker 01

  There's nothing inherently heroic in this story. Uh, this story is a tragedy on, on a number of levels and nothing about it is inherently showy. So what, what's really in it for an actor, for, for a young actor to say yes to that is going to guarantee them something meaningful on the other side of making it?

• 10:10Bill Simmons?

  Well, what's funny about that is they couldn't find Ernest Del Mar for years. And it was, they looked around and they, and all the typical suspects, like people like, we could talk about it later with cast and what ifs, I don't want to spoil it, but there's some people who are like, I'm not doing a movie like that. And, uh, now I think in 2025, people would want parts like this and they wouldn't care about.

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 10:33Bill Simmons?

  This might be bad for my career is the thing people would say in the mid 2000s.

• 10:37Speaker 01

  Yes. Well, I mean, because it was probably true.

• 10:40Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 10:40Speaker 01

  And I think, I mean, I wonder, I mean, I don't know if now's the time to really talk about this, but like, I really wonder, because watching it, and again, I've, this, the, the movie lives in the culture in this very interesting way, apparently, because I'd really, I've seen it, I've seen parts of it over the years. I'd never sat down to watch it from beginning to end until we were going to talk.

• 11:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Um, but that like, just many, so many of the shots in that movie of Jake Gyllenhaal and Heath Ledger seemed.

• 11:16Speaker 01

  Deeply familiar to me, like the scenes of them, the scenes in where like the shots of them holding the frame together, the close ups of their of their heads alongside each other of their of, you know, Heath Ledger laying on Jake Gyllenhaal in bed. The shot of Heath Ledger coming up behind Jake Gyllenhaal and holding him by the campfire and saying, you're sleeping like a horse right now.

• 11:46Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 11:46Speaker 01

  It's like one of the most beautiful things one person has ever said to another person, weirdly. Especially to men. I I I wonder if the iconography of this movie and just the power of its the effect of it on Jake Gyllenhaal's career and the fact that Heath Ledger is not here anymore. I don't know. I mean, I've never read any, I've never read him talk about what this movie has did or didn't do for him or did or didn't do to him.

• 12:23Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 12:24Speaker 01

  Um, but I I just have been thinking about his career in the wake of this movie and how interesting it has been.

• 12:34Bill Simmons?

  Well, remember in the, I remember the, maybe the oh six ESPs or oh seven ESPs. Forget who the host was, might have been Lance Armstrong. They made like a Brokeback joke.

• 12:42Speaker 01

  Oh, sure. Cause they were buddies, right?

• 12:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And I remember in the research Heath Ledger was like, they were Oscars wanted to do something with it at the Oscars. He's like, I'm not, that's not what this movie is about. Like he took it really seriously. We don't, we're not joking about this, but

• 12:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 12:58Bill Simmons?

  In the mid 2000s, you did joke about it, you know?

• 13:00Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 13:00Bill Simmons?

  And I think you mentioned Moonlight, Call Me By Your Name is another one where

• 13:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:04Bill Simmons?

  Within about 10, 12 years there, it just became a

• 13:10Bill Simmons?

  I don't want to say accepted, but more normalized in, in movies and TV. Like, we've talked about this before, but that Melrose Place episode where they edited up the guys kissing.

• 13:18Speaker 01

  Oh, my god.

• 13:19Bill Simmons?

  That was 12 years before this?

• 13:21Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 13:22Bill Simmons?

  So you think about like how this moves with, with gays and queer stuff in films and it's just, this was right at the vortex as it's shifting, but it hadn't shifted yet.

• 13:31Speaker 01

  No, and I think, well, if you think about this, that year,

• 13:37Speaker 01

  your five best picture nominees were Good Night and Good Luck, Crash,

• 13:43Speaker 01

  Brokeback Mountain, Capote, and...

• 13:47Bill Simmons?

  Munich.

• 13:48Speaker 01

  And Mu...

• 13:49Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Munich. Eric Bana.

• 13:50Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 13:50Bill Simmons?

  Before he was relegated to being on Untamed on Netflix in the Yellowstone Park solving murders.

• 13:55Speaker 01

  So the craziest sex of those five best picture nominees was in Munich.

• 14:02Speaker 01

  But, I mean, you had that year Brokeback Mountain on the one hand and Capote on the other, right?

• 14:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 14:07Speaker 01

  You at least, you were, you were seeing movies with depictions of two gay men, or like depictions, two movies about gay men in them, or men who...

• 14:17Bill Simmons?

  Prominent gay characters.

• 14:18Speaker 01

  Are attracted to men. I mean, we can, we can talk later about like what their sexual orientation is, Jake and, and, or Jack and Ennis in, uh, in Brokeback Mountain. There was a lot. At the time, I remember...

• 14:30Bill Simmons?

  I have a spot for that.

• 14:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, okay.

• 14:32Bill Simmons?

  But it was a topic of like...

• 14:33Speaker 01

  It was a, oh, it was a topic.

• 14:34Bill Simmons?

  Wait, are these guys gay, bisexual, or what's going on here?

• 14:37Speaker 01

  The gays were really annoyed. They wanted some flags.

• 14:43Speaker 01

  I mean, not all the gays, but I mean, it was a conversation like, how do, what is our terminology here for these two?

• 14:49Bill Simmons?

  So wait, can we hold that point for a second?

• 14:52Speaker 01

  Yeah, sure.

• 14:52Bill Simmons?

  Cause I had something in this for later.

• 14:55Speaker 01

  We can come back to it, too.

• 14:56Bill Simmons?

  Because, uh, this is a big part of the dialogue. And it's also different of how people, people probably talk now, but in 2015, Joe and I all said that it was a gay love story. And that his character was the more overtly gay of the two.

• 15:12Speaker 01

  Absolutely, 100%.

• 15:14Bill Simmons?

  In 2005, Ledger said, I don't think Ennis could be labeled as gay without Jack Twist. I don't know that he ever would have come out. I think the whole point was that it was two souls that fell in love with each other.

• 15:25Speaker 01

  That is also true. I. He would have said it differently now, but his point stands.

• 15:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. My interpretation, and I've seen this movie a bunch of times because it's one of my wife's probably like seven, eight favorite movies.

• 15:36Speaker 01

  I get it.

• 15:37Bill Simmons?

  And when it's on, she's just like, I love this. She loves Heath Ledger. So it's just kind of been on in my house.

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 15:43Bill Simmons?

  A bunch. And I, the more I've, I've seen pieces of it or watched it, I think Jack Twist is clearly gay.

• 15:51Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:52Bill Simmons?

  But I don't know about Ennis. I, I just think he, Ennis, what is it? Ennis or Ennis?

• 15:58Speaker 01

  Ennis.

• 15:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Ennis, don't worry.

• 15:59Speaker 01

  I had an Uncle Ennis, very Western oriented.

• 16:02Bill Simmons?

  I want to call him Ennis, but I know it's Ennis.

• 16:03Speaker 01

  Ennis.

• 16:04Bill Simmons?

  I do think Jack Twist would, because they, there's like, he checks out Heath Ledger in the beginning of the movie.

• 16:10Speaker 01

  I mean, we're, we're going to talk about that.

• 16:11Bill Simmons?

  He goes to Mexico, like, like, I do think he was gay. I don't, I don't know about Ennis, though.

• 16:17Speaker 01

  But it doesn't.

• 16:18Bill Simmons?

  Maybe it doesn't matter.

• 16:19Speaker 01

  It doesn't work that way. Like, it basically is, I mean, you know, the, this movie has a work of politics, which it, it explicitly is not. But obviously is going to abut politics anyway. The politics of this movie, to the extent that there are any that, that it is espousing, it's really the most benign sort of politics, which is, you know, listen, love is going to do what love is going to do. I can't control what my heart wants. And the amazing thing, though, about their first sex scene, their only sex scene that we see.

• 16:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 17:00Speaker 01

  Is that, and you know, there's, we should say this, this movie was based on the Annie Prouls short story that ran in the New Yorker in 1997.

• 17:09Bill Simmons?

  And immediately everybody's trying to buy the rights to it. Somebody does.

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 17:13Bill Simmons?

  And then they try to make the movie for the next six years.

• 17:14Speaker 01

  She's convinced by the, by the eventual screenwriters that this is a good idea and they can do it. Um, but in the story, it also in the movie, but to read how Ennis responds to Jack's grabbing his hand. And in the story, putting it on his dick, like he grabs his hand and puts it on his cock in the, in the story. In the movie, he just puts it around his chest. And Ennis stirs, wakes up and is like, whoa, whoa, whoa. But there's something so like, I got, I get like, it takes my breath away thinking about

• 17:56Speaker 01

  what Heath Ledger does as an actor in that moment and what's, you know, what the, what the directions for him are to do in that moment, which is basically to like, take his cock out and start fucking Jake Gyllenhaal. Like it's automatic. There's no thought happening here. Right? Like he automatically, he is instantly repulsed by this because he's shocked that this thing that like Jake Gyllenhaal sees in the first shot of the movie is been brought to bear on Heath Ledger. Who knows what Ennis has been thinking all these years about who he is and what he wants.

• 18:34Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if there's a lot going on upstairs for Ennis.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  There's clearly enough going on upstairs for him to know to keep all the doors locked.

• 18:44Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 18:44Speaker 01

  Right? That in and of itself is a full-time job.

• 18:47Bill Simmons?

  And then talk like Buffalo Bill and Silence of the Lambs. Those were his.

• 18:51Speaker 01

  I knew you were gonna, I knew.

• 18:53Bill Simmons?

  You're gonna be frat version?

• 18:54Speaker 01

  I knew it. I knew it. I knew it.

• 18:56Bill Simmons?

  Every time I see this movie, I just know what I'm talking about.

• 18:59Speaker 01

  But you know, sometimes when, when British and Australian actors go that route, what I hear as a moviegoer is them trying to suppress the original accent. I don't hear, the remarkable thing about this performance.

• 19:20Bill Simmons?

  He studied like Wyoming and Texas accents.

• 19:22Speaker 01

  It just sounds like a guy who talks that way from Wyoming. It just sounds like where he comes from.

• 19:31Bill Simmons?

  So I had a, I had a couple of lists. I'll throw these at you.

• 19:34Speaker 01

  Anyway, wait, hold on.

• 19:38Speaker 01

  I'm just, all of that sex stuff was just to say like, I think he knew what to do with that moment. And he never recoiled from the sex part of the operation. I just, I don't know. I mean, he didn't have a word for it. Nobody had a word. Like clearly says after they do it, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm not queer, right?

• 19:59Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 19:59Speaker 01

  And Jack says, me either. Which is exactly what a guy would say when the guy that you want to be with is like, you know, I don't like to do this, except for with you, right? And then the next night, his back. Yeah. Anyway, go on.

• 20:13Bill Simmons?

  So 21st century movies, because there's been a lot of talk about the first 25 years, just with everything, sports culture, all this stuff. And, uh, you know, and Sean's doing the 25 countdown. And this movie clearly is in the, in the 25. But I was thinking like,

• 20:29Speaker 01

  Not on the New York Times Greatest Movies?

• 20:32Bill Simmons?

  It didn't make it?

• 20:33Speaker 01

  I don't think it was, no. I think there was.

• 20:36Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 20:36Speaker 01

  Crouching Tiger, there were two, maybe it was? I can't remember now. I really can't remember now.

• 20:41Bill Simmons?

  Well, I was thinking.

• 20:42Speaker 01

  Definitely wasn't in the top 20.

• 20:44Bill Simmons?

  21st century movies that either won the Oscar or should have, but then also culturally became a thing. And I think it's There Will Be Blood, Social Network, Dark Knight, No Country For Old Ben, Brokeback Mountain, Oppenheimer, are the six.

• 20:58Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 20:59Bill Simmons?

  Movies that made money.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 21:01Bill Simmons?

  Sparked weeks and weeks of real cultural conversation, elevated stars.

• 21:06Speaker 01

  Brokeback Mountain is on the list.

• 21:07Bill Simmons?

  And we're.

• 21:08Speaker 01

  Seventeen. I just remembered. It's on the list. Seventeen on the list. Yes.

• 21:11Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Um, and we're awesome movies that have kind of stood the test of time. And I'm sure there's more and people can make whatever list they want. And I'm sure there's more obscure ones or movies that didn't do that well. But I think, I think those six from the first 25 years resonated in like a specific way. That I'm not sure other movie, and maybe you could put Black Panther in there or Creed. Like you can, you can start finagling the list however you want. But I just know that those six have to be on it.

• 21:40Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:40Bill Simmons?

  Does that make sense?

• 21:41Speaker 01

  Uh, well, it depends on how you're evaluating this, but a hundred percent, yeah, I don't disagree with.

• 21:46Bill Simmons?

  All those movies made money.

• 21:48Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 21:49Bill Simmons?

  Elevated stars in some way, were rewatchable and in some sort of way from a filmmaking.

• 21:55Speaker 01

  And they were quotable, right? I mean, there was.

• 21:58Bill Simmons?

  And they were like one of ones. Like they were movies, all of those movies are movies that were like, I've never quite seen a movie like that.

• 22:04Speaker 01

  Yes, and.

• 22:06Bill Simmons?

  And I wanted to put, there was a couple of other ones that were on the fringe.

• 22:08Speaker 01

  I was just thinking about what else you could do.

• 22:10Bill Simmons?

  Moonlight, there's some that are close, but I don't, there was some sort of cultural conversation that those movies started.

• 22:18Speaker 01

  Those feel, those feel definitely at the top of that pile at the very least.

• 22:23Bill Simmons?

  And I'm sure I left out a couple, anyway. Um, but then there's another list, and you'll be better at this with me than me, but the, the star-crossed lover list.

• 22:31Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 22:32Bill Simmons?

  Titanic, Romeo and Juliet, West Side Story, but it's a thing that everybody tries to do, but not a lot of movies actually pull it off. Where you're just like, man, I just really wish those two would get to together. Oh, they're, it's, they're not gonna make it, but they should. And it's like the oldest device of movies, and yet great movies can't pull it off.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  It's hard to do, because you really have to, this movie is quite powerful, is a really powerful example of it.

• 23:03Speaker 01

  It's surprising how effective it is, given how little time these two people on screen spend together.

• 23:10Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 23:11Speaker 01

  Right?

• 23:11Bill Simmons?

  They're basically together the first 25 minutes, or first 30 minutes.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 23:16Bill Simmons?

  And then intermittently after that, but they're not together the whole movie.

• 23:20Speaker 01

  And so you really have to believe, and I think this is why Jake Gyllenhaal's performance is kind of underrated to me.

• 23:26Bill Simmons?

  I was thinking it was a little Cruise Rain Maney, how that, that Goldman used to write about the part that nobody talks about as a hard part, because the other person was so good in it that. But Gyllenhaal's really good in this.

• 23:38Speaker 01

  He's very, very good in this movie, and I think if both performances, if, if there are two Heath Ledgers in this movie, it doesn't work. Right?

• 23:47Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 23:47Speaker 01

  You need, you need to understand, first of all, well, I don't know, should we just talk about? What it is Jake Gyllenhaal is playing here. Um, should I buckle up again?

• 24:03Speaker 01

  Craig, you all right? You want to put on a second seatbelt? Um, because I actually think this, this performance is really worked out. They're both, both performances are really worked out. And we'll get to the women in this movie because at least two of them have really worked something out in a, in a way that is, is very emotionally affecting to me. Um, but I think that both Heath Ledger and Jake, and Jake Gyllenhaal.

• 24:31Speaker 01

  Figured out exactly who they were playing. I agree. And I think Jake Gyllenhaal kind of gets the shirt under the stick here because it's a much more familiar. Place for an actor to be, right? Well, he's the goofy dreamer. Yes. He gets to act wacky. And he's courting, he is essentially, I mean, I don't want to gender this. I don't want to sort of conventionally gender this, but like, he's essentially doing two things at the same time. He's, he's the pursuer. Yeah. And he's the moony romantic, right? He is, he's doing the work of two archetypes at the same time.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  And in that opening shot, which is just one of the most extraordinary things that I had really not appreciated at the time. I'm sure I, I remember thinking it was erotic, but it's so much more than eroticism that's happening in that opening shot, which is basically Heath Ledger arriving at the. Randy Quaid's trailer. Yeah. When you put it that way, it sounds like Randy Quaid is involved, but basically. Oh, he's not involved. They're arriving for this work. And although Randy Quaid, I gotta say, he's looking real good in this movie. He's really, he is. You're not supposed to, I mean, listen. He's some good sneering in this. He was, he was, he was speaking to me. Oh. Oh, Randy. Oh, oh, bad Randy. That wasn't on my bingo card today.

• 25:59Speaker 01

  Well, I stick with me, Bill. If you've not been paying attention all these years, like, like, I mean, it's the Randy Quaid's of the world who are incredibly satisfying. Because nobody's paying that much attention. I'm going to put that in my notes. The point is Heath Ledger shows up, gets out of the truck. Stands against the trailer, waiting for it to open because it because it because he's not there. Or I guess it's locked. He uh.

• 26:26Bill Simmons?

  Jalen Hall comes in, Quaid's not there yet.

• 26:30Speaker 01

  And they just stand outside and proceed to raise and lower their heads. And it's just extraordinary, the choreography here. And what Jalen Hall knows, because I do believe that at this point,

• 26:50Speaker 01

  Ennis has not had sex with a man before.

• 26:53Bill Simmons?

  Oh, God, no.

• 26:54Speaker 01

  I think he might not quite even understand that what he might have been feeling for men was sexual attraction. Right?

• 27:03Bill Simmons?

  Do you think Ennis like even graduated ninth grade?

• 27:06Speaker 01

  No, they're both high school dropouts.

• 27:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:07Speaker 01

  Neither one of them graduated.

• 27:08Bill Simmons?

  He probably met Alma when she was 14, and that's probably the only girlfriend he ever had.

• 27:12Speaker 01

  And I think.

• 27:13Bill Simmons?

  Little Mary Alma. My, my, and I'll do the regular.

• 27:20Bill Simmons?

  You had to put the subtitles on.

• 27:21Speaker 01

  I knew you were gonna bring it.

• 27:22Bill Simmons?

  Of course.

• 27:23Speaker 01

  Well, he doesn't have that many lines.

• 27:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 27:25Speaker 01

  Um, so they're just lowering and raising their heads as they cruise each other outside this outside this trailer.

• 27:33Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 27:34Speaker 01

  And Jalen Hall knows what he's doing. Ledger doesn't understand, or well, I'll talk in the characters' names. Jack knows what he's doing. Ennis does not. Ennis is experiencing something happening to him that that Jack is trying to to manufacture, right?

• 27:54Bill Simmons?

  It's a little like the Before Sunrise scene in the listening booth.

• 27:57Speaker 01

  Oh, interesting.

• 27:58Bill Simmons?

  When they're kind of looking at each other, but at different times, but but only Jack Twist is looking.

• 28:04Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:04Bill Simmons?

  Ennis doesn't know that he's in the game yet.

• 28:07Speaker 01

  Well, well, Ennis knows that something is happening, but I don't think he entirely understands what it is because he's feeling something. He is uncomfortable. He's very nervous.

• 28:18Bill Simmons?

  He can't wait to eat beans with this guy.

• 28:20Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 28:21Bill Simmons?

  There's gonna be beans for the next four months.

• 28:22Speaker 01

  He's definitely intrigued.

• 28:24Bill Simmons?

  Lot of beans, nothing more romantic than beans.

• 28:28Speaker 01

  I love it.

• 28:28Bill Simmons?

  It's an aphrodisiac.

• 28:30Speaker 01

  Canned beans, not crazy about.

• 28:32Bill Simmons?

  Nothing like flatulence to really get the romance sparked.

• 28:35Speaker 01

  Listen, Ang Lee directed this movie. He tried to like get you with the flatulence, but we know what is probably happening with these canned beans.

• 28:42Bill Simmons?

  It's a cat and mouse game from that first scene. And it is so patient. I think one of the things of this movie compared to what we have to deal with now with most of the terrible movies we have to watch is that, yeah, people that we just have to, I have to have dialogue. I have to have a loud song here. I have to have a transition music for the montage. And this movie is just like, dude, come hang out with us at the mountains for the next half hour. We're gonna herd some sheep, eat some beans, gonna have some stilted conversation, gonna ride a couple of horses.

• 29:13Speaker 01

  I also think that what was, the thing that's sort of interesting here, and it's easy to miss this stuff because we don't really, like, most people, I think, don't really deal with sheep herding, right? Most people don't have to deal with like.

• 29:29Bill Simmons?

  Seems confusing.

• 29:29Speaker 01

  They're not, they're not, they're not living a rancher life.

• 29:32Bill Simmons?

  Craig harder than running a fantasy team? Sheep herding?

• 29:35Speaker 01

  It's pretty tough now in fantasy.

• 29:37Bill Simmons?

  It seems really. Running like four teams?

• 29:40Speaker 01

  So, I mean, I've, I've got my little handy notebook here, but like, basically, these two guys are, their jobs are the camp tender and the herder.

• 29:48Bill Simmons?

  Yep.

• 29:49Speaker 01

  Right? So, at night, one of them has to go back down to the sheep so the wolves don't get them. That's basically the assignment here. Keep these sheep alive. And it means they spend a lot of time apart, and one guy stays at camp and sort of maintains an environment there for the other guy to, to be able to.

• 30:08Bill Simmons?

  So they can have beans and whiskey ready.

• 30:10Speaker 01

  Sleep and eat.

• 30:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:11Speaker 01

  Um, but what is happening, what Ang Lee and James Sheamus, um, sorry, what Ang Lee and, and the screenwriters, Larry McMurtry and, uh, oh, man, what's her name? No, no, no, Diana.

• 30:26Bill Simmons?

  Diana Asana, something like that?

• 30:28Speaker 01

  Yes, yes, yes. They wrote the screenplay. They adapted Annie Poole's story. And what they're, what you're seeing here, along with some very good editing, is.

• 30:40Speaker 01

  Time sort of shrink with these two guys. And the more time they spend with each other, the less time they want to spend apart.

• 30:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 30:49Speaker 01

  And they switch jobs where one guy becomes the herder and the other guy becomes the tender. And it's kind of fascinating because what you see is the rigidity of Ennis sort of begin to relax a little bit as the time passes. And

• 31:09Bill Simmons?

  Well, we had that one scene, what does he say, like? Jack says, that's more words than you said in two weeks. He's like, that's more words than I've said in a year.

• 31:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 31:18Bill Simmons?

  You're like, oh, man.

• 31:19Speaker 01

  You're getting good at it and it's kind of turning me on. You need to stop.

• 31:23Bill Simmons?

  Michael Myers is getting turned on too over there staring at me.

• 31:27Speaker 01

  Stop it.

• 31:28Bill Simmons?

  All right, I'll stop.

• 31:30Speaker 01

  I, I just like, the thing that's beautiful about this movie is also the thing that is strangest about it from the standpoint of how you watch people fall in love with movies.

• 31:39Bill Simmons?

  Yes.

• 31:40Speaker 01

  And it's, it's all about the passage of time. And what they give you is seasons changing.

• 31:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 31:49Speaker 01

  Environment's changing. There are a lot of shots of the sheep doing their thing. You get a lot of shots in nature.

• 31:56Bill Simmons?

  A lot of wide shots of the mountain, sunsets and sunrises.

• 32:00Speaker 01

  And you are

• 32:01Bill Simmons?

  Seems great.

• 32:02Speaker 01

  You are, what you're falling in love with is both the environment that clearly is responsible for the closing of the, of the gap between these two men. And this environment is bringing them together as much as their, their innate desire for company, for closeness. And eventually in the scene that brings them sexually together, warmth, right?

• 32:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 32:32Speaker 01

  Because Ennis is sleeping outside the tent and Jack is like, Jesus Christ, will you just get in here? I'm tired of hearing you shivering and your teeth chattering. And Ennis comes in and Jack makes his move.

• 32:46Bill Simmons?

  So this movie solidifies Ledger and Gyllenhaal as A-listers, I think, right?

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 32:53Bill Simmons?

  Solidifies Ang Lee, who was already kind of there because he had had The Ice Storm and a bunch of good ones.

• 32:58Speaker 01

  But can we, can we talk about, when we talk about Ang Lee?

• 33:01Bill Simmons?

  Because. Can do it right now. He's, he's a two-time Oscar-winning director, which there's only 19 of them. That's irrelevant.

• 33:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 33:09Bill Simmons?

  Wedding Back with Sense and Sensibility, The Ice Storm, Crouched Tiger, Hidden Dragon. Does the Hulk was during that weird era where they started trying to get directors like him to do superhero movies.

• 33:21Speaker 01

  And then. Let's talk about.

• 33:22Bill Simmons?

  Audible's Back to Brokeback after the Hulk's a disaster and has Brokeback and Life of Pi.

• 33:27Speaker 01

  I don't, I mean, The Hulk, I just want to parenthetically say.

• 33:33Speaker 01

  I think it's like one of the best.

• 33:36Bill Simmons?

  Really?

• 33:36Speaker 01

  Oh, totally of, of that ilk of, of, of motion picture.

• 33:41Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 33:41Speaker 01

  Definitely the best.

• 33:43Bill Simmons?

  Well, he didn't think so. He was bummed out by it. What's, how would you describe his style in your opinion? With all those different movies that, because he's done a bunch of different types of movies, right? But what's, what is, what is his like, what is his strikeout pitch?

• 33:58Speaker 01

  Perception. I think he is waiting to see what happens. He often, I think, knows what he's looking for in a scene. I think he really studies the text. He knows the text, but the things that are variable are what the people do. Um, and he's very, I think he, I think his strength is observation. And it's both the observation of what is happening on the page, but also the intangible properties of what happens once what he knows is on the page gets in front of the camera.

• 34:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 34:38Speaker 01

  And. I think there are so many, he, I mean, I, you know, the other word I would use is, is remote, but that's kind of, that sounds pejorative, but he's such an observant director. And that's a way that people tend to think about him, which is he frequently is making movies about worlds he knows nothing about.

• 35:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 01

  From a life experience standpoint.

• 35:03Bill Simmons?

  Apparently now he's doing a Bruce Lee movie.

• 35:06Speaker 01

  Yeah, I mean.

• 35:06Bill Simmons?

  With his son as Bruce Lee is what he's developing, but he hasn't done a movie in like six years.

• 35:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't, I miss him.

• 35:13Bill Simmons?

  I would have said the same. I would have said perceptive would have been the word I used or patient.

• 35:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 35:18Bill Simmons?

  Cause, and it's something that I just think there's more and more bad content every year. And of course I watch a lot of it, but people just think with movies just loaded with dialogue and load music and, but very rarely do you see anybody just kind of bring you into a world and just kind of.

• 35:38Speaker 01

  Leaving you there.

• 35:39Bill Simmons?

  Ease you into it. Take your time.

• 35:41Speaker 01

  And trusting that you'll stay and you don't mind being there.

• 35:45Bill Simmons?

  Call me by a name was like that too, where it's like, it's just kind of moving you into, into a place, right?

• 35:51Speaker 01

  I prefer this movie in, in a lot of ways. I mean, from, for all kinds of reasons.

• 35:57Bill Simmons?

  I think this movie's.

• 35:58Speaker 01

  Um, I think, but that patience is a huge part of it.

• 36:01Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 36:02Speaker 01

  Right? His ability to just sort of like trust us to be able to follow the beats of what is happening between these two men. If they never had that tent scene, right? I mean, it's a probably a different movie, but the filmmaking is so good here. He's such a good director.

• 36:18Bill Simmons?

  PG 13 version of it?

• 36:19Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, if they're just like, if everything, if it's 1950 and we're making Brokeback Mountain, right? Which by the way, welcome to Bud Bodderker and, and Randolph Scott. I mean, that movie, but Brokeback Mountain happened all the time without the tent scene. But I think that he could have gotten away with just giving you the, the romance of these two people without the sex.

• 36:45Bill Simmons?

  Well, it's funny that we have more sex scenes with men and women than we do with the two guys.

• 36:49Speaker 01

  But you, I mean, think about with the, with the one sex scene with the, with Michelle Williams' character, Alma is doing. I mean, you know, I mean, in the, in the story, it's such, it's such great writing that Annie Pools is doing. Describing what the experience is like from her point of view, which you don't quite get. The movie is very faithful to the story, including its, its like blinks of interiority, which it brings out in dialogue and, you know, points of view. But yeah, like, most of the sex you're seeing in this movie is officially heterosexual, but, you know, we understand the psychologies of these people. So we understand what's underneath it, too.

• 37:34Bill Simmons?

  We're taking a break and then we get to talk about the actors. This episode is brought to you by Searchlight Pictures Wild Horse 9. John Malkovich and Sam Rockwell, I like those guys, star in the sharp-witted comedy thriller from Academy Award winner, Martin McDonagh, writer-director of The Banshees of Inisherin and Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, set in the 1970s, filmed on location on Easter Island. Malkovich and Rockwell play CIA agents Chris and Lee, who are caught in a dangerous game of secrets and survival. Also starring Steve Buscemi, another one of my guys, Parker Posey and Tom Waits. Wild Horse 9 is being hailed by critics as a revitalizing shot of pure entertainment

• 38:15Bill Simmons?

  and easily one of the best films of the year. Don't miss Wild Horse 9. Only in theaters Friday. Get tickets now.

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• 39:08Bill Simmons?

  So Ang Lee said, um, he cast these four leads and it's four actors at fascinating points of their career.

• 39:16Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 39:17Bill Simmons?

  Michelle Williams is basically a TV actress. Dawson's Creek, she was in Halloween H2O, um, hadn't really come through with a movie like this. Hathaway was Princess Brides.

• 39:28Speaker 01

  Wasn't she making a Princess Bride?

• 39:32Bill Simmons?

  Or making Princess Diaries?

• 39:33Speaker 01

  Princess Diaries, sorry.

• 39:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Princess Diaries.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  I mean, all these Goldman books, you're tricking me.

• 39:38Bill Simmons?

  But she hadn't been in, you know, anything like this and really fought to be in it. Ledger was on the radar with a bunch of stuff, like he got offered Spider-Man, turned it down. He was in 10 Things I Hate About You.

• 39:50Speaker 01

  Excellent.

• 39:51Bill Simmons?

  He was in The Patriot. He's really good in Monsters Ball, which is.

• 39:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yes.

• 39:55Bill Simmons?

  Monster Ball or Monsters Ball?

• 39:56Speaker 01

  Monsters Ball.

• 39:57Bill Simmons?

  Monsters Ball.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 39:59Bill Simmons?

  A movie that will not be on the rewatchables, uh, is one of the most, uh, harrowing, disturbing movies. Like, if you did a double feature of that and Million Dollar Baby, I think you would just drive your car off a cliff.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  I mean, just think about who's in that movie. Halle Berry, Billy Bob Thornton, Heath Ledger, Puffy.

• 40:15Bill Simmons?

  The craziest sex scene, I think, that's ever been in a mainstream movie where I actually.

• 40:20Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 40:21Bill Simmons?

  I would bet that they were actually fucking in that, right? I mean.

• 40:25Speaker 01

  I don't know.

• 40:26Bill Simmons?

  I don't know how they weren't.

• 40:27Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm waiting for Halle Berry to call the phone. Where's the bat phone? Where's the cat phone?

• 40:31Bill Simmons?

  Halle, tell us what happened.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  For Halle Berry.

• 40:33Bill Simmons?

  But yeah, so Heath Ledger's in that and he's great. And he's kind of on the radar, but this is the movie that, that does it for him. And then Jake had been a child actor and, you know, was, was in a bunch of.

• 40:43Speaker 01

  What were his child movies?

• 40:44Bill Simmons?

  So he had, uh.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  I don't remember. I mean, I remember the first time I saw him.

• 40:48Bill Simmons?

  Well, Donnie Darko was the big one, but he was in like City Slickers as a kid and shit like that.

• 40:52Speaker 01

  Was he?

• 40:53Bill Simmons?

  He had a bunch of them.

• 40:54Speaker 01

  Huh. I did not know that.

• 40:56Bill Simmons?

  Donnie Darko, he's in The Good Girl with, uh, Jennifer.

• 40:58Speaker 01

  That I remember. That's the first time I saw him, cause I missed Donnie Darko when it, on its, in its original run.

• 41:03Bill Simmons?

  So 05, he has Proof and Jarhead and Brokeback and Heath Ledger.

• 41:07Speaker 01

  What a good year for that guy.

• 41:08Bill Simmons?

  Heath Ledger has Lords of Dogtown, Brothers Grimm and, and Brokeback.

• 41:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, these guys had, these guys individually were having a classic Hollywood year.

• 41:21Bill Simmons?

  During an era.

• 41:22Speaker 01

  For an actor, for an actor.

• 41:23Bill Simmons?

  But during an era where you were 10 years later, you're just putting on a cape.

• 41:28Speaker 01

  Well, I mean.

• 41:29Bill Simmons?

  Heath Ledger's agents were like, you gotta take the Spider-Man thing or there's not gonna be another one that comes around.

• 41:33Speaker 01

  A hundred percent. Like, you just named six movies between three guys. Those six, like, I mean, first of all, those six movies wouldn't even be happening now.

• 41:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Lords of Dogtown.

• 41:44Speaker 01

  But just pretend that they were.

• 41:45Bill Simmons?

  That's like a star's prestige.

• 41:49Speaker 01

  That's a good movie.

• 41:49Bill Simmons?

  It's true. It is a good movie. Lords of Dogtown's good.

• 41:51Speaker 01

  I love Lords of Dogtown. That movie, it's, it's a wonderful movie. It's so lived in.

• 41:59Speaker 01

  Is it, uh, who directed that? It was, it's a woman.

• 42:01Bill Simmons?

  Stacy Peralta.

• 42:01Speaker 01

  So, Stacy Peralta, okay.

• 42:02Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 42:04Speaker 01

  It just, the, that movie really knows what it is and the people in it know how to be in that movie.

• 42:11Bill Simmons?

  And I think Heath Ledger knew, I wanna have like, you know, this happens very rarely with actors where they're from early on, like, I wanna have my career this way. And I wanna be in weird movies and I wanna work with good directors and I wanna challenge myself and, you know, that's, that's one of the multiple tragedies of losing a dude like that is, I don't know what his career would look like over the next. You think like he has Brokeback and he has Dark Knight in the span of three years. Like, if you add 15 years to his career, I don't know, what else is he doing?

• 42:45Speaker 01

  But, but the movie that I think is the important one is neither Dark Knight nor.

• 42:50Bill Simmons?

  What is it?

• 42:50Speaker 01

  Brokeback, which is Casanova. That's.

• 42:53Bill Simmons?

  Oh, wow. He, he hated his own performance in Casanova.

• 42:56Speaker 01

  Of course he did, but like, cause that's not an actor's performance, right?

• 43:00Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 43:00Speaker 01

  That's a movie star performance.

• 43:01Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 43:02Speaker 01

  That's the performance that a person gives because they wanna keep making Brokeback Mountain and they wanna keep doing Lords of Dogtown. And that is how you have a healthy movie star career.

• 43:15Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 43:15Speaker 01

  Because, or a healthy acting career because you're willing and because you can do movie star stuff.

• 43:21Bill Simmons?

  I think he would have done a lot of. I think he would have done a lot of non-star parts and gone back and forth between leading movies, but then just being like, all right, I'll be the Winklevoss twins and social network. And I think he just

• 43:34Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. Wow.

• 43:35Bill Simmons?

  I think he would have made like

• 43:36Speaker 01

  You're going that route. Now I'm getting, I just couldn't imagine like what the parts would be. But when you go that route, I'm like, oh, yeah.

• 43:42Bill Simmons?

  I think he would have gone all over the place.

• 43:44Speaker 01

  Totally could have done Winkle, Winklevoss.

• 43:45Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I think he would have, like, he would have been in Coen Brothers movie, who'd been Fincher. He just would have like banged out

• 43:50Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 43:51Bill Simmons?

  whoever the best directors were. And I think one of the cool things about this performance, you know, he, he just has a couple of just out of control, highest level acting scenes.

• 44:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:04Bill Simmons?

  Where you're just like, wow, you know, and I think Jalen Hall is great in this movie, but Ledger is like, he's like Hathaway said at one point, she said, I remember getting to watch the shot of Heath walking across the front yard of the parents, which is really just dust and dirt more than anything. And Heath had decided that at some point Ennis had been in an accident and had a limp. It was so subtle and it looked like he'd had this limp for about four years. And I just remember looking at Heath in that moment and thinking, this is one of the greatest actors that has been, just because he made weird, out of nowhere choices like that. But the way other actors talked about him, I think that's when you know.

• 44:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 44:41Bill Simmons?

  You know what I mean? When people are crossing through his vortex and they're like, Jesus Christ, this guy was incredible.

• 44:48Speaker 01

  Well, just think about, just think about the thing that we're kind of taking for granted so much that we're kind of laughing at, at the blatancy of it. But just to play the part speaking that way.

• 45:02Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 45:03Speaker 01

  Um, I remember there being some conversation when either around the time the movie came out about him not seeming masculine enough to people in the movie industry.

• 45:15Bill Simmons?

  Oh, that was one of the reasons he didn't get the part right away. They didn't feel like he was

• 45:18Speaker 01

  So that was, that was true. I remember that.

• 45:20Bill Simmons?

  That's true. Yeah, yeah.

• 45:21Speaker 01

  And I, I mean, I mean, I don't know. Is that really a requirement for these purposes? But sure, fine. He decides, I mean, I'm sure that conversation got to him, like it reached him in some way. He heard that people were saying it. So I don't know what his choice was here, but I'm also sure he saw Silence of the Lambs and was like, there is a world in which people hear this, this voice that I've come up with and they're like Buffalo Bill, you know, kill, kill, kill.

• 45:52Bill Simmons?

  But you know what's crazy, though, hit that character versus the Joker? You wouldn't know it was the same actor.

• 46:00Speaker 01

  You wouldn't know. Well, this is the thing.

• 46:02Bill Simmons?

  I just don't think you would know.

• 46:03Speaker 01

  I mean, I, I were like, I don't know who that person is playing this part. I don't know anything about this guy. Like, he has emptied himself of whatever, I mean, whatever baggage he had in 2005 coming to a movie, which is really none, because it had been six years of him, basically.

• 46:24Speaker 01

  I don't, all I'm seeing is a character at this point. I'm not seeing an actor playing anybody.

• 46:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I agree.

• 46:31Speaker 01

  And I think that is the thing that, that in part makes the performance so good. You don't know who the person playing the part is.

• 46:39Bill Simmons?

  It feels like he figures it out even more as it goes along, which might, might have been the script. But he does some stuff, like, I think the last half hour of the movie. He's so, like, when he goes, like, when, the last time he has the scenes with, with, with Jack Twist, when he breaks down, when he goes to see the parents, the phone call he has with Anne Hathaway. All the stuff he's doing in all those scenes, I just think, like, like, when he finds the shirt in the closet and you hear, like, the, it's life just sinks out of his body, like, he's just, it's really great stuff. It's, like, it's funny, because Daniel Day-Lewis said this was, like, his favorite performance. And, like, he loves this movie.

• 47:21Speaker 01

  Oh, really?

• 47:21Bill Simmons?

  And he loved Heath Ledger in the movie. And it's like, that makes sense to me, that, because it's like when the basketball players vet the other great basketball players. Like, this is a movie Daniel Day-Lewis is probably like, I wish I had made a movie like this.

• 47:33Speaker 01

  Well, I think that, well, I mean, Daniel Day-Lewis is, with all, with all due respect.

• 47:39Bill Simmons?

  He's made a bunch of great, I'm saying, like, this specific role.

• 47:43Speaker 01

  With the choices he made, right? I think that the surprise of this movie is just how, if you really, you know, diagram the sentence of the performance, so to speak, like, there are so many strange things that he's doing here. And.

• 48:02Speaker 01

  So much of it is about like staying like this, right? Just never moving beyond the like, like, like a certain like emotion, an emotional radius, a physical radius. This is a person.

• 48:17Bill Simmons?

  Right. How he uses his energy. Like even when he's waiting for Jack Twist, when he's.

• 48:20Speaker 01

  Oh, in the apartment?

• 48:22Bill Simmons?

  Drinking beers and he's just like, yeah, he's got six beers next to him and he's.

• 48:26Speaker 01

  Oh, this is in the apartment?

• 48:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, waiting as almost like, what the fuck's going on?

• 48:30Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 48:30Bill Simmons?

  Who's this Jack Twist guy?

• 48:32Speaker 01

  I mean, we've all been that person though, right? But the idea that it's Ennis Del Mar who's suddenly like.

• 48:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 01

  Wrapped around somebody's finger like that is it's really, really beautiful and sweet. The like child, the child likeness, the adolescence of, of who Heath Ledger thinks this guy is. Cause on the page, that's not really, I mean, at least in the short story, that's not quite so clear. Right? He is, he is incorporating these very real world human experiences into this performance that are, that are very much like being 15 years old and waiting for somebody you've got a crush on to acknowledge your existence and you think they might not even show up.

• 49:20Bill Simmons?

  You know what made me think? I think every generation, maybe even every decade, has an actor or an actress who's taken too soon and becomes like the what if? Cause like for my generation was River Phoenix.

• 49:33Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 49:34Bill Simmons?

  We thought River Phoenix was going to be like one of our guys, right? I think I was almost the exact same age with them, but it just felt like he was on the track to be whatever, and then he died.

• 49:44Speaker 01

  A hundred percent.

• 49:45Bill Simmons?

  And I think, who's your, for your generation, Craig? Do you have one? Cause Heath Ledger's older.

• 49:50Speaker 01

  Actors?

• 49:51Bill Simmons?

  I don't know. Or actresses.

• 49:52Speaker 01

  I mean, but I mean, people react. No, I don't think like who's died?

• 49:56Bill Simmons?

  It's like John Casale's like that for the seventies, right? He does five movies and dies.

• 50:01Speaker 01

  Yes, yes.

• 50:02Bill Simmons?

  And then you think it almost becomes like sports where you go, man. Think all like the ways this could have gone.

• 50:08Speaker 01

  No, we don't really.

• 50:09Bill Simmons?

  It's also different now.

• 50:10Speaker 01

  We don't really have, I mean, we have Mac Miller, Kobe Bryant.

• 50:13Bill Simmons?

  They're all other places. Yeah, it's more musicians.

• 50:18Bill Simmons?

  And then Gyllenhaal, who I think, you know, had a really, really good meaty career.

• 50:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 50:24Bill Simmons?

  He's gone in a lot of directions. He's had, I think, some really good rewatchable movies. He's had some stinkers. He's, seems like he's now reinventing himself as this presumed innocent show.

• 50:34Speaker 01

  A carry, a carry, a karaoke artist, basically.

• 50:37Bill Simmons?

  Well, he's basically like, he's now in this Jon Hamm, like, he's gonna be on your big Apple TV screen doing some show, and maybe that's where he is now. But this is after 25 years of work.

• 50:50Speaker 01

  Right. That's an industry condition that he is, like, he's riding that wave the best he can.

• 50:55Bill Simmons?

  He did. He did it the way he did it. He's a good actor.

• 50:57Speaker 01

  But it's interesting that, like, he is doing Roadhouse and Presumed Innocent, you know, these sort of iconic parts.

• 51:05Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 51:06Speaker 01

  For at least Roadhouse.

• 51:07Bill Simmons?

  By the way, two massive hits, right? Amazon, that was the biggest movie.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  Was that a massive hit?

• 51:12Bill Simmons?

  Massive hit.

• 51:12Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 51:13Bill Simmons?

  And then Presumed Innocent was like one of the only shows that resonated last summer.

• 51:17Speaker 01

  I really love Jake Gyllenhaal. I am always rooting for him. I love his choices. I think that he,

• 51:24Speaker 01

  you know, I didn't really finish my point about what's so good about this performance, though, in terms of his studying.

• 51:28Bill Simmons?

  Jake's?

• 51:28Speaker 01

  Yes. And the thing about it is, he knows he's playing a rodeo guy.

• 51:32Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 51:33Speaker 01

  Right? This is a guy who professionally wanted to, like, catch things for sport and entertainment. And he is good at catching men, right?

• 51:44Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 51:44Speaker 01

  And I don't like the idea of him, like, being a stalker. That's not what this is. But he wanted something and he lassoed it. And he tried to keep it.

• 51:53Bill Simmons?

  Striving 14 hours back and forth to.

• 51:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 51:56Bill Simmons?

  Wherever the fuck he goes.

• 51:57Speaker 01

  He wanted to keep it and it keeps trying to get away. And he keeps trying to keep it close. And Ennis is trying to, like, get out of the rope.

• 52:06Bill Simmons?

  So the four actors who I think spent a bunch of time together on the set and, like, really became like close. And then Heath Ledger falls in love with Michelle Williams during the movie. And apparently, like, people knew right away, like, oh, this is on with these two.

• 52:25Bill Simmons?

  Then up having a kid, he doesn't work for a year because she's working and he's raising the kids. So he doesn't, there's, has like a year off or so, but, uh. But I think everybody like Joan Hall was like the godfather of their kid. There's a lot of like.

• 52:39Speaker 01

  That makes sense. I mean, like, think about what it actually meant to shoot those those sheep scenes, right? I mean, at the end of the day, sure, there's a crew, but it's these two guys basically alone in the woods.

• 52:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 52:56Speaker 01

  For weeks on end.

• 52:58Bill Simmons?

  So it ends up being one of the big Oscar disgraces of the 21st century.

• 53:02Speaker 01

  Can you think of a better one?

• 53:04Bill Simmons?

  Ang Lee wins for director, wins for best score, wins for adapted screenplay. Crash beats Brokeback. We covered Crash. We did a a flawed rewatchable to that one a while ago. You missed it. Ledger.

• 53:16Speaker 01

  I didn't miss it as a.

• 53:18Bill Simmons?

  As a listener.

• 53:18Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 53:19Bill Simmons?

  And we don't have to litigate how dumb that was. It was dumb when it happened. It was fucked up.

• 53:25Bill Simmons?

  And it shouldn't have, it shouldn't have lost, but Hoffman versus Ledger is a really interesting one because Hoffman's great in Capote. And I think as the years pass, people are like, oh, man, Ledger. I don't really know the answer to that one, but it certainly wasn't. It wasn't a bad Oscar for like Hoffman became Truman Capote. That was fucking incredible.

• 53:44Speaker 01

  No, I mean.

• 53:44Bill Simmons?

  So I don't really know how I feel about that. Both performances were great.

• 53:47Speaker 01

  I, I get it. Well, you know, let's just do some, some Hollywood math here.

• 53:52Bill Simmons?

  Hoffman deserved one.

• 53:54Speaker 01

  Hoffman had been around for longer.

• 53:56Bill Simmons?

  Ledger was 25 years old.

• 53:57Speaker 01

  He was 25 years old. There was a belief that like, well, he'll be back here 10 more times.

• 54:02Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 54:04Speaker 01

  Why waste it? Why waste it on, why not give Philip Seymour Hoffman his Oscar now? We'll give it, we'll give Heath.

• 54:09Bill Simmons?

  It was brilliant for five, six years with Hoffman. Like this guy's a fucking awesome actor. And then culminates in Capote.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  Yes. And also the performance is just very good. Like I, I really like watching Brokeback Mountain this time. I was like, this performance is, is great.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  But I also understand, I don't have any objection to what Philip.

• 54:29Bill Simmons?

  Joan Hall loses to George Clooney in Sirianna?

• 54:34Bill Simmons?

  Not sure what happened there.

• 54:37Speaker 01

  I'm gonna sit on my hands.

• 54:38Bill Simmons?

  George Clooney in Syriana?

• 54:40Speaker 01

  Think about that. Think about the times that we lived in in 2005. Like, that, first of all-

• 54:47Bill Simmons?

  Craig, have you ever seen Syriana?

• 54:48Speaker 01

  No. Do you even know what Syriana is?

• 54:51Bill Simmons?

  No. I've heard of it. I don't know what it's about.

• 54:54Speaker 01

  It was that crazy time in our lives when the movies really were, though, about the world we were living in.

• 54:59Bill Simmons?

  It was post 9/11.

• 55:00Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:01Bill Simmons?

  The Bush stuff had started.

• 55:02Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 55:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, and all of a sudden, Syriana is an important movie.

• 55:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, it's, it's a, it's not an important movie. It's a movie that thinks it's important.

• 55:10Bill Simmons?

  It's a movie that thinks it's an important movie.

• 55:11Speaker 01

  But I wanna, you know how I feel about category fraud?

• 55:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Well, Gyllenhaal should have been best actor.

• 55:19Speaker 01

  What are we doing here?

• 55:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 55:21Speaker 01

  What are we doing?

• 55:21Bill Simmons?

  Ledger's in probably two more scenes.

• 55:24Speaker 01

  What are we-

• 55:25Bill Simmons?

  Although, I guess Ledger's basically the last 20 minutes of the movie. It's him.

• 55:28Speaker 01

  But I don't, okay, that is literally true.

• 55:31Bill Simmons?

  I don't feel like this is a grade one category fraud.

• 55:35Speaker 01

  Really?

• 55:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, because they're trying to get Gyllenhaal an Oscar, right? You don't want him competing against Heath Ledger, and Ledger is in the movie more than Jake Gyllenhaal.

• 55:44Speaker 01

  But it's not screen time that determines-

• 55:48Bill Simmons?

  Listen, we live in a world where Lecter was best actor for 16 minutes.

• 55:52Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying. It's like, it doesn't, the screen time is not the issue here. It's the importance of the character.

• 55:58Bill Simmons?

  It's the two guys together. I get it.

• 55:59Speaker 01

  It's like, there's no, it's not only is there no movie without Jake Gyllenhaal, but like, Heath Ledger's performance means something else without the, it's the Tom Cruise in Rain Man question. Right? Like, I just feel like what, what Gyllenhaal is doing, and I, I don't know how these things work. I'm sure that like, somebody in his world had to sign off on him being demoted to this other category in order to like, make it easier for them both to possibly win.

• 56:25Bill Simmons?

  If I'm Gyllenhaal, I'm like, put me in supporting. There's no way I'm beating Heath Ledger.

• 56:29Speaker 01

  I just hate.

• 56:29Bill Simmons?

  I just want a W.

• 56:30Speaker 01

  I just hate category fraud.

• 56:32Bill Simmons?

  Well-

• 56:33Speaker 01

  He's also too good. It's just, I don't know.

• 56:35Bill Simmons?

  Michelle Williams, best supporting actress, loses to-

• 56:39Bill Simmons?

  Rachel Weisz.

• 56:40Speaker 01

  Wait, who else was that year?

• 56:41Bill Simmons?

  The constant gardener. Amy Adams in Junebug.

• 56:43Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 56:44Bill Simmons?

  Catherine Keener in Capote and Frances McDormand in North County.

• 56:48Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 56:49Bill Simmons?

  Called a strong year. Wasn't a strong movie year.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  Was not as that 2005 was not a great movie year. Um, I, I, I love Rachel Weisz. She should have Oscars for maybe four other performances.

• 57:07Speaker 01

  I, I, people were charmed by that, by her in that movie. I've obviously of those five performances. I'm probably, I'm probably going with Michelle Williams.

• 57:18Bill Simmons?

  Like what's funny is this isn't the most traumatized wife she ever played.

• 57:24Bill Simmons?

  It's not even close.

• 57:26Speaker 01

  It's not even close, actually. That is true. I'm like.

• 57:29Bill Simmons?

  Somehow marrying Enes Del Mar wasn't as bad as the Manchester by the Sea guy.

• 57:33Speaker 01

  Oh, no. But she's really good at that sort of.

• 57:37Bill Simmons?

  I don't think anyone had the better, I'm completely broken, suffering, wide eyed. I'm about to start crying, but I'm trying to stay strong face. She might be the goat.

• 57:48Speaker 01

  Well, she always, she has this ability to look like, yes. Like, like, like.

• 57:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:54Speaker 01

  She's trying to keep it together.

• 57:55Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 57:56Speaker 01

  But like, I, I'm like, I'm this kind of crier where like the crying starts before I can even articulate why I'm, why I can't articulate.

• 58:07Bill Simmons?

  Like when you cry later in the podcast?

• 58:09Speaker 01

  Possibly.

• 58:10Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 58:10Speaker 01

  I don't want to.

• 58:11Bill Simmons?

  14 million dollar budget.

• 58:14Bill Simmons?

  14 million dollar budget made 179 million dollars.

• 58:17Speaker 01

  Everywhere or in the?

• 58:18Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, everywhere.

• 58:19Speaker 01

  Um, yeah.

• 58:21Bill Simmons?

  Roger Ebert.

• 58:21Speaker 01

  14 million dollar budget.

• 58:23Bill Simmons?

  Roger Ebert.

• 58:25Bill Simmons?

  Four stars.

• 58:26Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 58:27Bill Simmons?

  Brokeback bound could tell its story and not necessarily be a great movie. It could be a melodrama. It could be a gay cowboy movie. But the filmmakers have focused so intently and with such feeling on Jack and Ennis that the movie is observant as work by Bergman. Strange but true, the more specific a film is, the more universal, because the more it understands individual characters, the more it applies to everyone.

• 58:49Speaker 01

  Yep.

• 58:50Bill Simmons?

  Rog, nailing it. Rog is on a heater right now for the rewatchables.

• 58:53Speaker 01

  But you know, what he also gave four stars to?

• 58:56Bill Simmons?

  Sirianni.

• 58:58Speaker 01

  A crash.

• 59:00Bill Simmons?

  He did. We litigated that. He was affected.

• 59:04Speaker 01

  And also said, listen, listen, y'all, the better movie actually did win.

• 59:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I know.

• 59:12Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 59:12Bill Simmons?

  Not great.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  Not great.

• 59:15Bill Simmons?

  Let's do the most rewatchable scene. So it's nothing really in the first 25 minutes, except for that first scene outside the trailer that you're pointing out, like the little cat and mouse game. But basically, we're just hanging out as the guys eat beans and get bombed.

• 59:32Bill Simmons?

  The, uh, the scene.

• 59:35Bill Simmons?

  I gotta throw it in there because it's one of the most famous scenes of the movie. I want to, uh.

• 59:38Speaker 01

  The tent scene?

• 59:40Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna tell a story.

• 59:41Speaker 01

  Okay. Oh.

• 59:43Bill Simmons?

  We watched this movie the other night with my, with my wife and my daughter, who's home from college.

• 59:49Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:50Bill Simmons?

  She had no idea what this movie is, but she really likes Heath Ledger and Jake Gyllenhaal.

• 59:54Speaker 01

  Carrie loves this movie.

• 59:55Bill Simmons?

  Carrie, this is one of my wife's, like, seven or eight favorite movies.

• 59:58Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 59:59Bill Simmons?

  And my daughter doesn't know what it's about, but likes the two actors.

• 1:00:02Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:00:02Bill Simmons?

  So we're going and we're going 25 minutes and she's into it and she likes it and looking at the phone every once in a while. And they get, we get to this scene and I forget who's behind you, but somebody rolls over and, and she's like, wait, why are they cuddling?

• 1:00:21Bill Simmons?

  And Carrie starts laughing.

• 1:00:24Bill Simmons?

  And so he goes, wait, what, what's gonna, what? And then at the tent scene, and she couldn't believe it. She had no idea it was coming. So that was kind of funny.

• 1:00:33Speaker 01

  Ooh.

• 1:00:34Bill Simmons?

  So she's seeing it through the prism of everyone does it, like, really, we're gonna throw in the, the gay, like, we see Amazon, Netflix, all these different streamers, they all try to be edgy by having characters go in all these different directions. So her guard goes up because she's like, oh, here we go. This is, this is the way we're going. And by the end of it.

• 1:00:53Speaker 01

  But where did she think they were trying to, where did she think she was gonna be taken?

• 1:00:56Bill Simmons?

  I just didn't think she, didn't know what she was watching. She just thought we were watching like a Western.

• 1:01:01Speaker 01

  Okay. I thought it was a Taylor Sheridan show.

• 1:01:04Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:01:05Speaker 01

  So it's like, hey, Taylor Sheridan, you know what you could use a little bit more of? Honestly, I mean, listen, let's be real, let Cole Hauser have it. Let him go, let him off his leash.

• 1:01:18Bill Simmons?

  Explore the studio space. By the end of the movie, my daughter was like sobbing in tears. Couldn't believe that they met up. So it did its, it did its move, man. This movie's really good. Anyway, uh, next scene, Jack and Ennis fight and say goodbye. And Ennis throws up and punches the wall a couple of times, which apparently he did in real life and wasn't supposed to punch the wall.

• 1:01:42Speaker 01

  Punch.

• 1:01:42Bill Simmons?

  And they already broke his hand, he had a sprained hand.

• 1:01:44Speaker 01

  I mean, he gets up and looks at, he's looking at his hand as he walks away from the punch.

• 1:01:49Bill Simmons?

  Method acting sometimes can go wrong.

• 1:01:52Bill Simmons?

  It's a small scene, but Randy Quaid telling Jack Twist, there's no chance for another job.

• 1:01:56Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:01:57Bill Simmons?

  You Bush sure found a way to pass the time up there.

• 1:02:03Bill Simmons?

  Twist, you guys wasn't getting paid to leave the dog, baby shit in the sheep, but you stem the rose.

• 1:02:09Speaker 01

  Stem the rose.

• 1:02:10Bill Simmons?

  What is that? I've never heard that one before.

• 1:02:12Speaker 01

  When you stem the rose, basically you are kind of doing this.

• 1:02:16Bill Simmons?

  Wow. Randy, uh, Jack meets Lorene.

• 1:02:21Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:02:22Bill Simmons?

  Anne Hathaway's character.

• 1:02:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:25Bill Simmons?

  She's, she's ready to go.

• 1:02:27Speaker 01

  She's, I mean.

• 1:02:28Bill Simmons?

  The go team.

• 1:02:29Speaker 01

  Lot of horses in this movie.

• 1:02:31Bill Simmons?

  Lock it down. But it's just Anne Hathaway coming in throwing a hundred. Jack goes to see Ennis, which we talked about when he gets the postcard.

• 1:02:40Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:41Bill Simmons?

  Ah. Comes in, Alma's like, hey, do you think your friend will want to have a coffee? No, he's from Texas, he doesn't drink coffee.

• 1:02:49Speaker 01

  One of the great.

• 1:02:51Bill Simmons?

  Runs out to meet him and then Alma makes the mistake of opening the door, thinking she's going to meet, uh.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Alma makes the mistake. What is Ennis doing?

• 1:03:00Bill Simmons?

  Right, yeah. Ennis just lost his mind.

• 1:03:02Speaker 01

  Let's, let's.

• 1:03:03Bill Simmons?

  The biggest picking nit of the movie is what is he doing?

• 1:03:05Speaker 01

  Oh, that's the, that's your.

• 1:03:07Bill Simmons?

  Out in public?

• 1:03:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, I mean, like, he didn't even hide behind a corner. I mean, he just jumps his bones right downstairs.

• 1:03:13Bill Simmons?

  I am telling you, the other.

• 1:03:16Speaker 01

  He really missed him.

• 1:03:17Bill Simmons?

  There are some real contexts that we have to keep in mind. This is probably 1963.

• 1:03:23Speaker 01

  This is, we're in-

• 1:03:25Bill Simmons?

  No, now we're in 67.

• 1:03:27Speaker 01

  All right. Well, we're in the, we're in this, we're in the 60s. Not exactly a big, like, respect your woman-

• 1:03:33Bill Simmons?

  We didn't know we were in 1967 because Ang Lee decided not to play Creedence Clearwater Revival to let us know we were in 1967.

• 1:03:41Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, we're in it also in a, in a real hippie free zone. So there'd be, there'd be no conventional markers. But I mean, I think the thing that, that is so devastating about this movie that's ancillary to the love story is just the sexist misogynist chauvinist world these guys are living in and in their way maintaining, right?

• 1:04:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:07Speaker 01

  These are two people who are ultimately kind of shitty to women. And-

• 1:04:12Bill Simmons?

  I have a whole category for this later.

• 1:04:14Speaker 01

  And I think the power of that scene is, I mean, you understand what's happening here immediately because Ledger has sold you-

• 1:04:22Bill Simmons?

  I'm assured understands. She's like, oof.

• 1:04:27Speaker 01

  But it's, there are two times when we see, I, the thing that's shocking about that scene to me is there are two times in the movie where we're, we're outside the relationship-

• 1:04:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:04:38Speaker 01

  And we're seeing what somebody else sees. And it's almost as if that, like, that movie trick of translation where like these people, these two characters, these, all these characters are speaking one language and we're hearing it as English and then there's like some cut to-

• 1:04:56Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

• 1:04:57Speaker 01

  Somebody else who doesn't speak that language and we're hearing gibberish, right?

• 1:05:01Bill Simmons?

  It's like the Randy Quaid sneer when he's got the binoculars and he's just like-

• 1:05:05Speaker 01

  Yes. The two times we're seeing it, we're seeing it through a window and through binoculars.

• 1:05:09Bill Simmons?

  And through a tire iron flashback.

• 1:05:11Speaker 01

  Right. But that's sort of different, right? Because we don't know whose perspective that is.

• 1:05:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:16Speaker 01

  But the, the-

• 1:05:20Speaker 01

  You just totally understand the immediacy of it. And these two actors are selling. We don't give a fuck who sees this. He like comes to his senses. It's the one time in the movie that Jack loses, that, that Ennis loses control. That in a way, well, I mean, this also is violent. I mean, Ennis only loses control. His only mode of expression is, is violence. His only emotional mode is, is either fucking somebody or fucking them up.

• 1:05:49Bill Simmons?

  I think when your friend comes out of nowhere to visit and you just tell your wife, hey, we're gonna go get some drinks. Not sure I'm gonna be back tonight. Like, what, what is that? You know what it was? It was the 1960s.

• 1:06:00Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:06:00Bill Simmons?

  You just tell your wife.

• 1:06:01Speaker 01

  That's what I'm saying.

• 1:06:02Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if I'm gonna be back tonight.

• 1:06:03Speaker 01

  I don't know if I'm gonna be back.

• 1:06:05Bill Simmons?

  Craig, you should try that over the weekend. Liz, somebody's in town. I don't know if I'm coming back tonight.

• 1:06:11Speaker 01

  I think he even says like, I, I might be back in a couple of days.

• 1:06:14Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:06:15Speaker 01

  Right. Well, I mean, in the story.

• 1:06:17Bill Simmons?

  What an era.

• 1:06:17Speaker 01

  I don't remember if this happened. I don't think this happens in the movie, but in the story, Jack is like, just tell her you'll be back in a few days. I do it all the time, basically.

• 1:06:27Bill Simmons?

  Do you think we could have like one of the 50 states just operates? With like, with social rules for the sixties where men are just like, I'll be back.

• 1:06:36Speaker 01

  I think they do. Bill, we live in that country right now. I had to. Every, all 50 states are, are this imaginary state you're talking about.

• 1:06:46Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying to throw you an alley, Wes.

• 1:06:48Speaker 01

  1955 all day long.

• 1:06:51Bill Simmons?

  Alma's, I think my husband's passionately making out with his friend, Jack Twistface is in the pantheon of, of faces in the movie.

• 1:06:59Speaker 01

  What an expression.

• 1:07:01Bill Simmons?

  Oh, my Lord.

• 1:07:02Speaker 01

  What an expression.

• 1:07:03Bill Simmons?

  The campfire convo, another rewatchable scene of whether they could end up together. When Ennis tells the flashback tire iron story and it basically sets the stakes. Like, this isn't just about forbidden love. Like, we could fucking get killed here.

• 1:07:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:07:16Bill Simmons?

  So important. I like the double dysfunctional Thanksgiving with Loreen's asshole dad turning the TV and that little battle. And then we have Jack Twist and Alma and she's like, you know, I kept those. There's tags on that fishing pole and I wrote a little note and you never caught any fish. And man, it got it, which, which was the more dysfunctional Thanksgiving, probably that one.

• 1:07:40Speaker 01

  Well, because you don't expect, I mean, the thing about Ennis is he is so, everything is so tamped down and he thinks that he's got control over the whole narrative.

• 1:07:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. And she knows the whole time.

• 1:07:55Speaker 01

  And she knows the whole time. And then the idea that the real thing for him that, that is so upsetting is that he wasn't getting away with anything. Right? He thought he was getting away with this thing and she had no idea. You didn't go up there to fish.

• 1:08:12Speaker 04

  You don't know nothing about it.

• 1:08:14Speaker 01

  I'm gonna yell from the rock. He thinks she's stupid and can't figure it out.

• 1:08:19Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:08:19Speaker 01

  She's known the whole time.

• 1:08:20Bill Simmons?

  She underestimated.

• 1:08:21Speaker 01

  So he threatens to kill her, basically.

• 1:08:23Bill Simmons?

  Jack's, uh, this is one of my favorite scenes. Um, the double date with Jack and the guy from Stranger Things.

• 1:08:31Speaker 01

  Oh, wow. What a scene. What a scene.

• 1:08:33Bill Simmons?

  And they're out in the back and he's like, yeah, I love to go fishing. Uh, we ought to go down there some weekend.

• 1:08:40Speaker 01

  I've got a cabin.

• 1:08:41Bill Simmons?

  Got a cabin. And they kind of had that moment. Um, it's been a running joke with me and my wife for 20 years. Cause you know, when you're in LA, you meet parent friends and there's a couple. There's been a couple of times where there, she was like, what'd you think of so and so? And I was like, I don't know. He kind of gave me a, I got a cabin. We could go up there for a weekend vibe.

• 1:09:04Speaker 01

  Bill, your job is to get me the phone number. What are you doing? I mean, I'm in a relationship now and I hope to be for the rest of my life, but you need to be getting me some phone numbers.

• 1:09:15Bill Simmons?

  We ought to go down there some weekend.

• 1:09:17Speaker 01

  You've been holding out on me all this time?

• 1:09:19Bill Simmons?

  That scene's hilarious.

• 1:09:20Speaker 01

  Oh, my God.

• 1:09:22Bill Simmons?

  The big scene, I think this is the best scene in the movie. The, uh, the boys hanging out. It's, it's the, I, I wish I could quit you. Why don't you? But it's actually, that scene is so much better than what became kind of a meme of that scene.

• 1:09:35Speaker 01

  I wish I could quit you.

• 1:09:37Bill Simmons?

  You know, it ends with Heath Ledger has like a breakdown. He's like, it's because of this. I'm like, I'm like this. I'm nowhere. I'm nothing. It's just, you're just like, oh my God.

• 1:09:48Speaker 04

  Why don't you just let me be, huh?

• 1:09:53Speaker 04

  Because of you, Jack, that I'm like this.

• 1:09:59Speaker 04

  Nothing. I'm nowhere.

• 1:10:05Speaker 01

  Yeah, but I mean, poor you. Like, this guy is offering you an opportunity to get away from all this stuff in your city. You're turning it down.

• 1:10:15Bill Simmons?

  It's great on there.

• 1:10:16Speaker 01

  I mean, but you also understand it. Like, this is a person who doesn't believe in happiness.

• 1:10:22Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:10:22Speaker 01

  Like, he doesn't believe in it. He doesn't believe it's possible. And it's so true, I think, having met people from that zone of the country.

• 1:10:32Bill Simmons?

  So you're thinking, this is like, late 70s at this point, so it's still pretty realistic that it seems inconceivable.

• 1:10:38Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:38Bill Simmons?

  That you could.

• 1:10:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:10:40Bill Simmons?

  Actually, yeah, let's do this together. It's just not on the cards.

• 1:10:43Speaker 01

  It's inconceivable. From, like, in Wyoming, in any, any part of that corridor, insane. But I think that the tragedy, the great thing about that, there's a few great things about that scene. One is the way Heath Ledger is turned from the camera. And Jake Gyllenhaal's assignment there is to try to, like, I don't know if his assignment is to get him to, to, like, show us.

• 1:11:08Bill Simmons?

  Oh, when he comes back, yeah, yeah.

• 1:11:09Speaker 01

  His crumpled face, to show us.

• 1:11:11Bill Simmons?

  But Jake does some good stuff in that scene, too. Like, when he sees how broken Ennis is, and you just see, like, the lifeguard now, he's like, oh, man, I pushed that too far.

• 1:11:20Speaker 01

  Because it's the first time he stood up to him.

• 1:11:22Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:22Speaker 01

  Declared everything, right? I mean, they've been lying to each other a little bit, like, there's, I don't believe there's any girl that Jake Gyllenhaal's been running around.

• 1:11:31Bill Simmons?

  Oh, I thought that was the guy. I thought that was the cabba guy.

• 1:11:34Speaker 01

  I think.

• 1:11:34Bill Simmons?

  He's saying it's a girl, but I think it was the cabin guy.

• 1:11:36Speaker 01

  It's a girl. It was David Harbour.

• 1:11:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:38Speaker 01

  Um, which I totally get. Um, what are we doing? Like, if David Harbour, or David Harbour playing a guy in a cowboy hat, sits down to you on a bench and says, yo, I got a cabin, why don't we go to it? What are you gonna do?

• 1:11:55Bill Simmons?

  I'd be like, it's week five of the NFL season.

• 1:11:57Speaker 01

  You would be like, Harry.

• 1:11:58Bill Simmons?

  Viking Packers.

• 1:12:00Speaker 01

  This guy sat down next to me.

• 1:12:01Bill Simmons?

  Played in Miami. I can't go.

• 1:12:03Speaker 01

  I can't. I can't do this.

• 1:12:05Bill Simmons?

  I've got kids.

• 1:12:06Speaker 01

  But I mean, that's such a great moment also, because, and we can, I don't know when we talk about this, but like, the other power of this movie.

• 1:12:15Speaker 01

  Is that it is, it is expressing homosexuality in zones in which American popular culture never even thinks to look.

• 1:12:26Bill Simmons?

  Well, especially in 2005. Now I think it's more commonplace, right?

• 1:12:30Speaker 01

  Yeah, but in 2005, that was part of the power of it, even now, right? I mean, even now, this is like, watching this movie, it still feels like there is some seal that is still not entirely broken on, like, who gets to be gay? Who gets to, like, declare themselves as gay?

• 1:12:53Bill Simmons?

  I did think like, I didn't put this in the, uh, in the rundown, but I did think this movie would be way more polarizing in 2025 over some of the,

• 1:13:04Bill Simmons?

  some of the ways it's discussed, though, gay, bisexual, straight, all, like, I just feel like it would-

• 1:13:10Speaker 01

  Like how we term, like, what the terminologies are?

• 1:13:13Bill Simmons?

  All the terminology, I just feel like there would have been some quagmire when we entered versus, or somebody gives a quote during the junket and they don't like how they said the quote, then that becomes a thing.

• 1:13:24Speaker 01

  That's fair. I mean, even the things that they were saying at the time of the movie's making, probably would have gotten somebody in trouble, but,

• 1:13:30Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:13:31Speaker 01

  I don't, I don't know. That's a great, that's an interesting thing to think about, too, is like, how this movie lands if nothing changes in 2025.

• 1:13:39Bill Simmons?

  We could have had a good life together. Fucking real good life. Had a place of our own. Like, oh, he's making some good points. Uh, Jack calls Lorraine. It's a really good Anne Hathaway scene.

• 1:13:52Speaker 01

  Wow, yeah.

• 1:13:54Bill Simmons?

  And you do, what I, and there's some good research on this that I'll get to later, but I love how ambiguous it is.

• 1:14:01Speaker 01

  Mm-hmm. Yes, yes, yes.

• 1:14:03Bill Simmons?

  Does she know who this is?

• 1:14:05Speaker 01

  There's a lot of ambiguities in this movie.

• 1:14:06Bill Simmons?

  Does she know how Jack died?

• 1:14:07Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:14:08Bill Simmons?

  What does she want this person to know? It's just really, and then, uh, Ennis finds the shirt.

• 1:14:14Speaker 01

  Oh, sees the parents.

• 1:14:16Bill Simmons?

  Incredible job by those broken parents. That seems like a fun house. I like when she's like, yo, come back whenever. It's like, yeah, that sounds great. How about two weeks from now? We can get together and have some more good times.

• 1:14:28Speaker 01

  Yeah, to, to, for Ennis Del Mar to find something truly unpleasant enough to never return to it is really, is really saying a lot.

• 1:14:36Bill Simmons?

  Come back and see us again.

• 1:14:39Bill Simmons?

  And then when the, when the guy talks about, the dad talks about how Jack was talking about, first it was this Enes Del Mar who come up here. And then he got this new guy who's getting a divorce and he was gonna come up here. And it's like, wait, what? Uh, what's the most rewatchable scene for you?

• 1:14:57Speaker 01

  Oh, the opening.

• 1:14:59Bill Simmons?

  Opening scene, okay.

• 1:15:01Speaker 01

  Because you always want to evaluate to like, I mean, I've seen the opening a bunch of times. Um, we've, watching it in the context of the whole movie. It's just, you're watching, you're watching a little modern dance between these two, between these two men. And it's really, it's really quite good.

• 1:15:18Bill Simmons?

  Uh, we'll take another break and then, uh, rest of the categories. This episode is brought to you by Viori. All right, let's talk about a category we appreciate. Clothes that stay in the rotation. Viori earned that spot. Their core shorts are good for workouts, travel day, weekend, whatever. And the Strato Tech T ridiculously soft. It's the kind of gear you keep reaching for because it's comfortable while still looking put together. Get 20% off your first purchase at Viori.com/rewatchables and discover the versatility of Viori clothing. Exclusions apply. Visit the website for full terms and conditions. This episode is brought to you by Boar's Head. You know what I love about football season? It's the football, but also the football watching food.

• 1:16:01Bill Simmons?

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• 1:16:38Bill Simmons?

  All right. What's the most 2005 thing about this movie, Wesley? Is it how young all the soon to be way more famous actors are? Or is it that it was considered as controversial as it was in 2005? When you watch it again?

• 1:16:54Speaker 01

  Uh, definitely how young everybody is. And that you couldn't, you couldn't make this movie now. Even if somebody were trying to make it, who would you make it with? Like, it had to be these four people.

• 1:17:06Bill Simmons?

  I was gonna ask Craig for a recasting couch. Who is, who is Ennis and Jack Twist?

• 1:17:11Speaker 02

  I feel like there is a group of actors now who are challenging themselves in these ways by playing characters like this, like, like Paul Meskell and Adam Scott and Josh O'Connor.

• 1:17:21Speaker 01

  I don't, oh.

• 1:17:22Bill Simmons?

  I, I thought Paul Meskell was one of the ones.

• 1:17:24Speaker 01

  Yeah, I agree with you.

• 1:17:25Bill Simmons?

  Paul Meskell I could see in one of the roles here.

• 1:17:27Speaker 01

  Well, oh, sure.

• 1:17:28Speaker 02

  I think Josh O'Connor and Paul Meskell are about to be in a movie about a gay romance, I think.

• 1:17:33Speaker 01

  Yeah, but it's a New Hampshire, totally different thing.

• 1:17:35Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 1:17:35Speaker 01

  But yes.

• 1:17:36Bill Simmons?

  The Western's different because there's a physicality with it that like, I think just rules out like Tom Holland.

• 1:17:42Speaker 01

  Mike Feist, Mike Feist. I mean, we're recasting couch, are we, so are we doing it now?

• 1:17:47Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm just, I was thinking how unique this time with the actors was and.

• 1:17:52Speaker 01

  And there's another very obvious person who I had in my brain.

• 1:17:56Speaker 02

  You're right, they need a physicality.

• 1:17:57Speaker 01

  You can't be Shalhoub. Right, no, no, no, no. But that's obviously the person that they're gonna go to.

• 1:18:04Bill Simmons?

  It could be Shalhoub and the Sacha Baron Cohen, like gaining 50 pounds of muscle. You see that?

• 1:18:08Speaker 01

  Jesse Plemons, Jesse Plemons.

• 1:18:11Bill Simmons?

  He's too old now, though.

• 1:18:12Speaker 01

  Uh, maybe, but like Jesse, Jesse Plemons is the sort of person in there. Oh, who's that guy, Will, Will Powder? Will Pooter?

• 1:18:22Speaker 02

  Will Pooter.

• 1:18:23Bill Simmons?

  I feel like they would do it now and it would be like, and Sabrina Carpenter is Alma.

• 1:18:28Speaker 01

  Yes, I mean, probably yes.

• 1:18:30Bill Simmons?

  Actually, she might not be bad.

• 1:18:31Speaker 01

  She probably would not be bad, honestly.

• 1:18:33Bill Simmons?

  What's age the best?

• 1:18:34Speaker 02

  Do you think it's something Gosling could have done 10 years ago?

• 1:18:36Bill Simmons?

  Hundred percent.

• 1:18:37Speaker 01

  Yes, I, I agree with that. But I mean, I, I just want this. Because when you think about who else could have played these parts in, in the actual real time, I'm like, you gotta be kidding me.

• 1:18:49Bill Simmons?

  Funniest casting, Danny McBride as Ennis.

• 1:18:52Speaker 02

  And Shane Gillis as Jack.

• 1:18:55Speaker 01

  Now, wait a minute, now, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

• 1:18:59Bill Simmons?

  You're in on this?

• 1:19:00Speaker 01

  Let's take this seriously for a second.

• 1:19:03Bill Simmons?

  Because.

• 1:19:03Speaker 01

  You're out here jerking off on the beans.

• 1:19:06Bill Simmons?

  Doing Danny McBride stuff.

• 1:19:09Speaker 01

  I'm, I'm actually serious about this. Because the one, the one, I mean, I'll pick my nit later, we'll come back.

• 1:19:17Bill Simmons?

  All right, we'll come back. What's age the best? The score is incredible and it wins the Oscar. It's just great.

• 1:19:21Speaker 01

  It's perfect.

• 1:19:22Bill Simmons?

  It is perfect.

• 1:19:23Speaker 01

  And, and just like one of the last movie scores that isn't in a Christopher Nolan movie, where the movie is sort of, that music, you hear it and you're automatic, your heart just starts to swell.

• 1:19:35Bill Simmons?

  You calling out the goat John Williams, telling him he's not been working hard enough the last 20 years.

• 1:19:40Speaker 01

  I'm just like.

• 1:19:41Bill Simmons?

  Step it up, John. I know you're 93, but come up with some fucking shit again.

• 1:19:46Speaker 01

  Just say, well, there are people ripping John Williams off is what I'm saying. You've done the work, sir. You've done the work.

• 1:19:51Bill Simmons?

  What's age the best? A character saying the title in the, in the movie in a scene.

• 1:19:56Speaker 01

  All we got here is Brokeback Mountain.

• 1:19:58Bill Simmons?

  It's like, great. You said the title.

• 1:20:02Bill Simmons?

  This isn't a Western, but it's a Western adjacent, which almost needs like its own name. But I like being outdoors with a lot of animals and, you know, just like.

• 1:20:13Speaker 01

  Western-ish?

• 1:20:14Bill Simmons?

  Just how kind of the, the quietness and like the first 20 minutes of No Country For Old Men is like this. When Josh Bollin goes out to see the murder and just big vast nothing and just quiet. And there's an eeriness and a creepiness with it.

• 1:20:28Speaker 01

  I love things set in the middle of the country, in the Southwest, where none of the conventional Hollywood things.

• 1:20:38Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:20:39Speaker 01

  Happen in that iconography.

• 1:20:40Bill Simmons?

  Blank slate. You never know what's gonna go.

• 1:20:44Bill Simmons?

  Heath Ledger, Michelle Williams falling in love during the filming. Now their daughter is, I think like six months younger than mine.

• 1:20:50Speaker 01

  Oh, wow.

• 1:20:51Bill Simmons?

  Batilda, who's like very low profile in her.

• 1:20:53Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:20:56Bill Simmons?

  Jack Twist as a character, we mentioned it before, but the dreamer, when the dad says at the end, like, oh, Jack's ideas never came to pass. I just, I like, I like that these characters are just losers in like, not like the, I don't think we have enough like loser characters anymore. Cause now they would just be like some incel in front of a computer or something. But we don't have like just down on their luck. Guys, it's never going to work out. And it's guess what? It's going to pay child support. His life's going to suck. He's going to go to this bar and drink and that's probably, he's going to live in this trailer.

• 1:21:30Speaker 01

  That's it.

• 1:21:30Bill Simmons?

  That's where, that's where it's going to end.

• 1:21:31Speaker 01

  The last shot of the movie.

• 1:21:34Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:34Speaker 01

  Is one of the most devastating shots for, I mean, it's up there. I think magnificent obsession, the Douglas Sirk movie, the last shot of that movie is, is doing a similar thing, which is like really setting up the hero or heroine in the case of the Douglas Sirk movie. Like it's a tragedy. And how do we know it's a tragedy?

• 1:21:57Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:21:57Speaker 01

  Because they're, they're going to be alone. And here's what they're alone with. The, this particular memory, I think the Sirk movie is ultimately more devastating somehow because it's a TV instead of a shirt.

• 1:22:07Bill Simmons?

  That's a great shot, Gordo candidate with the, the shirt with the.

• 1:22:11Speaker 01

  With the open road.

• 1:22:12Bill Simmons?

  And then the road in the background. That's kind of similar.

• 1:22:15Speaker 01

  Just, just ingenious framing and, and storytelling.

• 1:22:18Bill Simmons?

  Ang Lee, good at stuff. Uh, I'm just going to say this for what stage is the best. Sneaky hot cast that doesn't get mentioned in the hot actress cast arguments that I like to have never. Um, but Michelle Williams.

• 1:22:33Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:33Bill Simmons?

  Cause I'm old. Michelle Williams, Anne Hathaway, Kate Mara and Lynda Cartellini.

• 1:22:37Speaker 01

  You left Anna Faris.

• 1:22:39Bill Simmons?

  Anna, Anna Faris for a scene. Yeah.

• 1:22:41Speaker 01

  Like, who's also wonderful.

• 1:22:43Bill Simmons?

  Ang Lee, great job by you.

• 1:22:44Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:47Bill Simmons?

  I like this exchange. What do you do, Enes Delmar? Earlier today, I was castrating cows.

• 1:22:55Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:22:56Bill Simmons?

  What other, what stage of the best do you have? Cause we've mentioned a lot.

• 1:22:59Speaker 01

  Uh, hold on.

• 1:23:01Bill Simmons?

  I think for me, it's the score is the one, the eternal one.

• 1:23:05Speaker 01

  Oh yeah. The score is the thing that will last forever.

• 1:23:08Bill Simmons?

  And the, and the Heath Ledger piece of it. Did you have another one?

• 1:23:11Speaker 01

  I mean,

• 1:23:12Bill Simmons?

  scribble.

• 1:23:12Speaker 01

  No, I mean, I've just got a lot of notes here.

• 1:23:15Bill Simmons?

  Big Kahuna Burger were for best use of food and drink. Probably when they cook, what do they make? Like elk or venison?

• 1:23:22Speaker 01

  Uh, it's, it's an elk.

• 1:23:24Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, elk. I like that or just a lot of the beans.

• 1:23:27Speaker 01

  I mean, how did they, they did a lot of jerky. They were doing, I mean, they're, I mean, they know what they're doing with a, with a giant wild animal.

• 1:23:35Bill Simmons?

  Actually made me a little hungry, Craig.

• 1:23:36Speaker 01

  Yeah. When you're out there.

• 1:23:37Bill Simmons?

  They're making the elk.

• 1:23:38Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:23:38Bill Simmons?

  Sequence going from beans to that.

• 1:23:41Speaker 01

  I mean, as a beans lover.

• 1:23:42Bill Simmons?

  You're shitting for days after that.

• 1:23:43Speaker 01

  That's a real RFK Junior diet.

• 1:23:45Bill Simmons?

  Why are we hating on beans?

• 1:23:46Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm just like,

• 1:23:48Bill Simmons?

  I'm saying beans every day. Like at some point.

• 1:23:50Speaker 01

  But at some point you, like, you know what's great about beans every day? You stop farting. Like eating them every day.

• 1:23:56Bill Simmons?

  How do you know? What did you eat beans every day for two months?

• 1:23:59Speaker 01

  I eat beans all the time. I'm a soaker and a, and a boiler. I love the beans.

• 1:24:05Bill Simmons?

  We don't get to give this category out very much. And I'm really excited about it.

• 1:24:09Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:24:10Bill Simmons?

  It's the Sean Penn, I brought my own pack award for excellence in on-screen smoking. So it's a scale of one.

• 1:24:18Speaker 01

  Mm hmm.

• 1:24:19Bill Simmons?

  To Robert De Niro in Goodfellas, which is a 10. And he's the only one who could be a 10 because nobody's better than him in that movie when he does the, the Maury cigarette.

• 1:24:27Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:24:28Bill Simmons?

  He stares down Maury.

• 1:24:30Speaker 01

  That is one of the, you know, cause smoking is a big, as a non-smoker, but like as a person who's lived with smokers most of his life, most of his childhood. Uh, I'm really, you gotta convince me you know what you're doing with a cigarette.

• 1:24:42Bill Simmons?

  And CR made the point when we redid Good Will Hunting, Cole Hauser. Walks into the bar, finishes a cig, grabs a beer, grabs car keys, puts the cig out all in one motion. That's probably like a nine, seven.

• 1:24:55Speaker 01

  That's, that's very good.

• 1:24:56Bill Simmons?

  I think Ledger is like a, like a legitimate nine, five.

• 1:24:59Speaker 01

  Was he a smoker?

• 1:25:01Bill Simmons?

  I don't know if he was a smoker or not.

• 1:25:02Speaker 01

  But I believed it. I'd actually, I believe it.

• 1:25:04Speaker 02

  He, uh, I think he said he's smoked weed since he was like seven years old every day. So he clearly was comfortable smoking.

• 1:25:10Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:25:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, there's just a comfort. There's a facility with the, with the, with the instrument there.

• 1:25:16Bill Simmons?

  It just seems like he had a lot of butts on the set. And then Jake, I think it was like a seven, five, eight range. I was really convinced with his smoking as well.

• 1:25:28Speaker 01

  I just don't.

• 1:25:29Bill Simmons?

  Culminating in a double smoking post-coital scene.

• 1:25:31Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:25:32Bill Simmons?

  They're both fucking banging out cigs. And it's like, you guys are, this is not watching Tom Cruise trying to work his way through a Marlboro red.

• 1:25:40Speaker 01

  No, no. This is some of the worst, one of the worst smokers.

• 1:25:45Bill Simmons?

  Or Keanu Reeves in Hardball.

• 1:25:46Speaker 01

  Julia Roberts, Tom Cruise. Um, really, most people are just not convincing smokers. Like, most, most actors are not convincing smokers.

• 1:25:57Bill Simmons?

  De Niro should be like when, when quarterbacks study the mechanics of like, like Joe Montana.

• 1:26:03Speaker 01

  But most people who smoke in movies aren't that character. And the reason that smoking was so good was that's the only way that guy knows how to smoke. Right?

• 1:26:14Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:26:14Speaker 01

  Like, it just makes, it just is perfect. It's perfect.

• 1:26:17Bill Simmons?

  The great shot, Gordon Award, most cinematic shot. We already mentioned that one at the end. I also wanted to volunteer, um, when Ennis beats the two guys up on 4th of July and has that wide shot of the fireworks going off behind him and his wife's like, what the fuck is?

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:26:32Bill Simmons?

  It's just like really well framed. Nice job by them. There's a lot of choices in this movie for best shot.

• 1:26:37Speaker 01

  I mean, all those closeups of the two of them are really, I just remember them.

• 1:26:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:26:42Speaker 01

  And I like seeing them in this movie, watching, having watched it pretty, really recently. They just seemed so familiar to me. Like, I've been looking at them my entire life.

• 1:26:51Bill Simmons?

  Kid Cudi Pursuit of Happyness Award, Best Needle Drop. Uh, Sweet Melissa by Ullman Brothers.

• 1:26:57Speaker 01

  I'll go with that.

• 1:26:58Bill Simmons?

  Or the ending, when he says, Jack, I swear. And then the score like kicks in with a hard guitar.

• 1:27:03Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:27:04Bill Simmons?

  Uh, Jess Rockwell, Brock Lander's Award for Best Character Name. So I, you'd want to say Jack Twist here.

• 1:27:11Speaker 01

  Don't you?

• 1:27:13Bill Simmons?

  Can I make a case for Lorraine?

• 1:27:17Speaker 01

  The fuck is that name? Listen, you about to get a lot of Lareens in your inbox.

• 1:27:21Bill Simmons?

  No, I'm saying if you're Lareen, you're only from three states in the country.

• 1:27:25Speaker 01

  Lareens are coming for you.

• 1:27:27Bill Simmons?

  Texas, Oklahoma, and maybe Nebraska.

• 1:27:30Speaker 01

  It's a flavor of name. Lurleen is a name I'm familiar with.

• 1:27:34Bill Simmons?

  I'm just saying, that is a specific region of the country, Lareen.

• 1:27:37Speaker 01

  Yes, but Jack Twist is your winner here.

• 1:27:40Bill Simmons?

  Jack Twist is pretty good.

• 1:27:41Speaker 01

  Alma Junior, though, let's, let's just sit with this for a second.

• 1:27:44Bill Simmons?

  I had that in picking Nettie.

• 1:27:45Speaker 01

  Jack, oh, well, just like, who names their daughter Alma Junior in 1967? Listen, I mean, are we, did you not hear what I said about misogyny, chauvinism, and sexism running wild in the, during these 20 years?

• 1:28:00Bill Simmons?

  AJ?

• 1:28:01Speaker 01

  Listen, there's not, I don't know. The answer is no.

• 1:28:04Bill Simmons?

  Butch's Girlfriend Award for Week Link of the Film. Craig mentioned a big one, that they would be that open, but I think you could make a case, they both lost their minds. Jack and, and Ennis, when they see each other after four years, and they're just making out in the driveway.

• 1:28:17Speaker 01

  I don't, I, Craig.

• 1:28:20Bill Simmons?

  I, I would think that you might be like a.

• 1:28:22Speaker 02

  If you're, if you spend your whole life hiding it, don't you think that you, you?

• 1:28:25Speaker 01

  But it's, but it's, you've also gotten a really massive dose of a thing that you didn't even know you wanted, and it's been four years since you had it, and it's coming over right now.

• 1:28:40Bill Simmons?

  That's how I feel about Drake May this season.

• 1:28:42Speaker 02

  You can't hide it.

• 1:28:43Bill Simmons?

  I can't, I can't hide my love for that guy.

• 1:28:45Speaker 01

  Nah, I mean.

• 1:28:46Bill Simmons?

  The Patriots might be good again.

• 1:28:47Speaker 01

  I think the thing that's so great about that scene is, it's, it's, he just, it's, it's, it's the first time in his life that he's lost control in, in public like that, right? The other time, you know.

• 1:29:00Bill Simmons?

  There's a case. So I'm gonna go.

• 1:29:02Speaker 02

  I really understand it. I understand.

• 1:29:04Bill Simmons?

  Can I go with this instead? Jack Twist just driving 14 hours back and forth, three, four times a year to go fishing with his buddy, and his wife's never like, huh?

• 1:29:14Speaker 01

  That marriage is.

• 1:29:15Bill Simmons?

  14 hours is like.

• 1:29:16Speaker 02

  I think she was like, huh?

• 1:29:17Speaker 01

  Right. I think she was. I think that marriage is basically dead anyway.

• 1:29:20Speaker 02

  On the phone at the end, you can feel that Lareen knows what's going on.

• 1:29:25Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:29:25Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Jack says that to Ennis at one point, too.

• 1:29:28Speaker 01

  I agree. I think that there's something, she, there's no way, I'm sure that the, the wife, I'm sure Anna Faris and Anne Hathaway.

• 1:29:39Speaker 01

  Those characters had conversations because Anne Hathaway and Anna Faris is married to David Harbour, right? In this movie.

• 1:29:45Bill Simmons?

  He's got a cabin.

• 1:29:46Speaker 01

  And so the cabin is probably a topic of real conversation.

• 1:29:50Bill Simmons?

  It's like, what happens in that cabin? I had this later in Unanswerable Questions, but he's driving 14 hours both ways, like three times a year. What's the furthest at the horniest point in your life you would have driven for sex regularly? It's 14 hours. I just want to point out in the AM radio days with shit of your cars and no podcasts. That's like a, that's a long time. It's a 28 hour round trip. That's like if you just decided if Craig's like, tomorrow, I'm just going to drive to, I don't know, Texas.

• 1:30:23Speaker 01

  You're probably stopping to sleep as well. It's like a real two day trip.

• 1:30:26Bill Simmons?

  I mean, that is a, that is a real commitment.

• 1:30:29Speaker 01

  I want to point you to a song called I Drove All Night.

• 1:30:34Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:30:34Speaker 01

  By Cyndi Lauper.

• 1:30:35Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:30:36Speaker 01

  And then Celine Dion.

• 1:30:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:30:38Speaker 01

  That's how Celine is. Somebody makes a good song and Celine jumps right on it.

• 1:30:43Speaker 01

  I mean, I had to escape. The city was sticky and cruel.

• 1:30:47Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:30:48Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 1:30:48Bill Simmons?

  14 hours. That's some good sex.

• 1:30:50Speaker 01

  I mean, listen, I've done it. Not 14 hours. I have run. I have run. I have run across Boston.

• 1:30:59Speaker 01

  I will not name this person, but I have run from Cambridge. I ran from Cambridge to Back Bay.

• 1:31:06Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:31:06Speaker 01

  That seems like Charlize Theron right now. I ran down, I ran down Mass Ave.

• 1:31:10Bill Simmons?

  That's over an hour.

• 1:31:12Speaker 01

  That's not that far. Like when you're running, that's like a 20 minute run. I did it though.

• 1:31:17Bill Simmons?

  It depends what part of Cambridge and what part of Back Bay.

• 1:31:20Speaker 01

  Listen, when you, I don't, when it's, I love like deep attraction.

• 1:31:26Bill Simmons?

  You ran?

• 1:31:27Speaker 01

  Excitement. I fucking ran.

• 1:31:29Bill Simmons?

  She'd take the fucking tea or something.

• 1:31:30Speaker 01

  Are you kidding? This was like 11 o'clock at night. Do you know how long I've been waiting? I'd be waiting for like the, the, the red line to come and take me.

• 1:31:38Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:31:38Speaker 01

  Also, I'd have to transfer.

• 1:31:39Bill Simmons?

  Sounds smart.

• 1:31:40Speaker 01

  I'd have to get off at Park Station to go get on the green line.

• 1:31:43Bill Simmons?

  That's five minutes.

• 1:31:44Speaker 01

  To get to the Back Bay. That's insane. Just go to Mass Ave.

• 1:31:47Bill Simmons?

  What's age the worst?

• 1:31:50Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:31:50Bill Simmons?

  Kate Merron, Heath Ledger were four years apart in real life.

• 1:31:53Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:31:54Bill Simmons?

  In this movie. It's fucking weird at the end. It looks like she's like the new girlfriend. It's like, no, that's his daughter. They didn't age him.

• 1:32:01Speaker 01

  It doesn't look crazy.

• 1:32:01Bill Simmons?

  They didn't age him enough. I don't feel like.

• 1:32:03Speaker 01

  He was only 39.

• 1:32:05Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:32:06Speaker 01

  They were only those, when Jack dies.

• 1:32:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, you're right.

• 1:32:09Speaker 01

  He's 39 years old. So there's, he's not even really that old.

• 1:32:11Bill Simmons?

  He could have given him like some bad facial hair or something.

• 1:32:13Speaker 01

  And so they're tw- like, he's 20 when he has her, probably eight, like 19 or 20.

• 1:32:18Bill Simmons?

  All right. I can't wait to do this part with you.

• 1:32:20Speaker 01

  Uh oh.

• 1:32:21Bill Simmons?

  Where does Ennis rank in the worst movie husbands ever rankings? I have some choices.

• 1:32:26Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:32:27Bill Simmons?

  And I don't think he's in the top 10.

• 1:32:28Speaker 01

  You don't think he's in the top 10?

• 1:32:30Bill Simmons?

  Well, cause I made this list.

• 1:32:31Speaker 01

  Well, cause he doesn't do anything violent. Well, go on. Let me, let's just figure it out.

• 1:32:36Bill Simmons?

  If we're going from scale of one to 10?

• 1:32:38Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:32:40Bill Simmons?

  Sleeping with the enemy guy?

• 1:32:42Speaker 01

  Ugh.

• 1:32:43Bill Simmons?

  Laura! I mean, that guy, you had to like change your identity and end up in the middle of nowhere and he still found you.

• 1:32:51Speaker 01

  That guy's in a tier of his own.

• 1:32:53Bill Simmons?

  He was OCD. He was like rearranging the cans in her kitchen.

• 1:32:56Speaker 01

  Are we ranking these?

• 1:32:57Bill Simmons?

  I'm just, I'm giving you some choices.

• 1:32:59Speaker 01

  This is, this is gonna be hard to beat Patrick Bergen in that movie.

• 1:33:02Bill Simmons?

  Oh, we're gonna beat him.

• 1:33:03Speaker 01

  Really?

• 1:33:04Bill Simmons?

  Ike Turner and What's Love Got To Do With It?

• 1:33:06Speaker 01

  Oh, Jesus Christ. Fine.

• 1:33:08Bill Simmons?

  Phantom Thread Guy?

• 1:33:10Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:33:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:33:13Speaker 01

  She's poisoning him.

• 1:33:15Bill Simmons?

  Huh?

• 1:33:15Speaker 01

  She's poisoning him in that movie.

• 1:33:16Bill Simmons?

  He was a fucking psycho. That's why he poisoned her.

• 1:33:18Speaker 01

  Sure.

• 1:33:19Bill Simmons?

  He needed to be poisoned.

• 1:33:20Speaker 01

  Ah, interesting. Nah, he's a different.

• 1:33:22Bill Simmons?

  I got some more.

• 1:33:23Speaker 01

  That's a different tier.

• 1:33:24Bill Simmons?

  Carlo Rizzi in The Godfather?

• 1:33:26Speaker 01

  Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

• 1:33:29Bill Simmons?

  Get in the kitchen, you giddy bitch!

• 1:33:33Speaker 01

  He got his though. He got his.

• 1:33:35Bill Simmons?

  Fuck you!

• 1:33:40Speaker 01

  All right, Ennis is starting to look pretty good, honestly.

• 1:33:43Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he beats up his wife multiple times, but also sets Sunny up to be shot 175 times at the toll booth. So fuck that guy. Amityville Horror Guy, underrated. About to kill his whole family with an axe.

• 1:33:56Speaker 01

  Oh, sure.

• 1:33:56Bill Simmons?

  James Brolin, putting him in.

• 1:33:58Speaker 01

  He was possessed.

• 1:34:00Bill Simmons?

  Jeff Daniels in Terms of Endearment?

• 1:34:02Speaker 01

  Wait.

• 1:34:03Bill Simmons?

  What a fucking piece of shit he was.

• 1:34:05Speaker 01

  He's in the Ennis Del Mar class of person.

• 1:34:07Bill Simmons?

  Right. I'm just giving you choices.

• 1:34:08Speaker 01

  That's a different tier. Flap. His name was Flap. There's a.

• 1:34:12Bill Simmons?

  Flap. We haven't done Terms of Endearment yet. I can't wait to kill Flap.

• 1:34:16Speaker 01

  Ring my phone.

• 1:34:17Bill Simmons?

  That's, that's another one of the seven movies my wife watches the most.

• 1:34:20Speaker 01

  It's a perfect movie.

• 1:34:23Bill Simmons?

  Get over here and say goodbye to your mama.

• 1:34:26Speaker 01

  Give my daughter the shot!

• 1:34:31Bill Simmons?

  Daniel Plainview for worst, worst husband. I guess he's more of a worst dad, but I just wanted to float him out just in.

• 1:34:39Speaker 01

  We're just going worse.

• 1:34:40Bill Simmons?

  Wow, you really are just going straight to the top. Counts. Close Encounters Guy, Roy Neary. We just did this movie. He just abandons his entire family because he thinks the aliens are coming.

• 1:34:50Speaker 01

  Okay, listen, that is your winner.

• 1:34:53Bill Simmons?

  We're not done yet.

• 1:34:54Speaker 01

  Wait, we're not done?

• 1:34:55Bill Simmons?

  No, because I have this as the Mount Rushmore. The dad from Home Alone, fucking loses his kid. Fuck that guy. Where's Kevin? He's not here?

• 1:35:07Bill Simmons?

  Oh, John Heard, Jack Torrance in The Shining.

• 1:35:11Speaker 01

  Oh, man. What am I doing? I'm, I gotta leave.

• 1:35:14Bill Simmons?

  He tries to kill everyone in his family.

• 1:35:17Speaker 01

  I'm gonna sit here and.

• 1:35:18Bill Simmons?

  Chases his kid in a frozen maze.

• 1:35:20Speaker 01

  That's your winner. It's not even close.

• 1:35:21Bill Simmons?

  I got two more.

• 1:35:22Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:35:23Bill Simmons?

  De Niro in This Boy's Life.

• 1:35:25Speaker 01

  Oh, God. Poor Ellen Barkley. Okay, go on.

• 1:35:28Bill Simmons?

  What was that guy's name?

• 1:35:29Speaker 01

  I don't remember.

• 1:35:30Bill Simmons?

  Give him the Daryl?

• 1:35:32Speaker 01

  Probably.

• 1:35:34Bill Simmons?

  I mean, that movie ends with them escaping.

• 1:35:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:35:37Bill Simmons?

  The house and him going, you'll remember me! You'll remember me!

• 1:35:43Bill Simmons?

  And then I think our winner, the great Santini.

• 1:35:46Speaker 01

  All right. Wow.

• 1:35:47Bill Simmons?

  Duval wins the Oscar for how horrible of a husband and father he was. The whole movie is about him being a fucking nightmare and psychologically destroying his kids.

• 1:35:56Speaker 01

  All right. So yeah, Ennis is starting to look pretty good.

• 1:35:58Bill Simmons?

  Ennis is like a three out of 10.

• 1:36:00Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:36:00Bill Simmons?

  He's fine. He's the shitty husband.

• 1:36:03Speaker 01

  I mean, if we're doing it the Richter scale way, sure, he's a three out of 10.

• 1:36:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:36:08Speaker 01

  Great. Great. He's a three.

• 1:36:11Bill Simmons?

  Did you have an answer for the Ruffalo Hannah Rabinik Partridge overacting award? I felt like the acting was really good in this.

• 1:36:16Speaker 01

  No, I don't have anybody for that.

• 1:36:18Bill Simmons?

  Okay. Well, you have a flex category. It's the first time since we've had the new format that you've had to do a flex category. What'd you have?

• 1:36:28Speaker 01

  Could this movie, which I think does not need much improvement.

• 1:36:33Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:36:33Speaker 01

  Be improved if one of the characters had a dog?

• 1:36:39Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Ennis could have absolutely had a dog.

• 1:36:41Speaker 01

  Ennis, I mean, this is the thing that's gonna start making me cry, Bill, because I really...

• 1:36:46Bill Simmons?

  Do we have this as a category? Should this character have had a dog?

• 1:36:51Speaker 01

  I swear to God, I read that on the list you sent me.

• 1:36:53Bill Simmons?

  The Ensta Omar Award?

• 1:36:55Speaker 01

  Oh, should you name it? Should you make it a category?

• 1:36:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, we're gonna, we're gonna name this the Ensta Omar Award.

• 1:37:01Speaker 01

  I just feel like...

• 1:37:03Bill Simmons?

  What kind of dog?

• 1:37:04Speaker 01

  I don't know. I don't know anything about dogs.

• 1:37:06Bill Simmons?

  Like a lab?

• 1:37:06Speaker 01

  You're the dog person.

• 1:37:07Bill Simmons?

  That swims a little bit.

• 1:37:08Speaker 01

  I just feel like this is a guy who is so lonely.

• 1:37:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:14Speaker 01

  And so estranged from himself. And the only connection that he has, like, that is meaningful to him, has to drive 14 hours to get to him.

• 1:37:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:37:29Speaker 01

  And I just really feel like that guy's life would have been so much better, because he had horses.

• 1:37:35Bill Simmons?

  Kate Mara's character was like, I'm right here.

• 1:37:37Speaker 01

  She's like...

• 1:37:38Bill Simmons?

  Let's go to a ballgame.

• 1:37:38Speaker 01

  He almost doesn't even want to go to her wedding.

• 1:37:41Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 1:37:41Speaker 01

  He has to sit there and it has to occur to him, you know what Jack would probably tell me to go to this wedding? Ding, I'm gonna go to the wedding. I think a dog really would have helped. I really think a dog would have helped.

• 1:37:51Bill Simmons?

  Probably maybe like a bloodhound? Hmm, aren't they, what are they like? I only know them from cartoons. Just they're kinda sad. It's like a dog that would be sad. Ennis couldn't have a happy dog. That's true. It'd be like a hang dog.

• 1:38:03Speaker 02

  They need to be like a field dog, though. Like a herd.

• 1:38:05Bill Simmons?

  That's what I'm thinking. Like a Border Collie?

• 1:38:07Speaker 02

  Border Collie, yeah.

• 1:38:08Bill Simmons?

  Oh, yeah, Border Collie's good. Okay.

• 1:38:09Speaker 02

  Also, we do, Wesley's right. This is already an award.

• 1:38:12Bill Simmons?

  What is it?

• 1:38:12Speaker 02

  It's the Cliff Booth Award. Is this movie better if the main character had a pet?

• 1:38:17Bill Simmons?

  Wow, I'm really going to see now. But I think that. Is the Cliff Booth, now I have to add Ennis to it. Add Ennis. Cliff Booth, Ennis Del Mar Award. All right. We have so many categories now, I forgot. Uh, all right. The CR thinks Luke Wilson could have been Harrison Ford hottest take award. Do you have a hottest take for this movie? I have one of, I can carry us if you don't have one. I don't have one. Okay, I have one. Again, hottest take. I think you can make a case Heath Ledger had two of the best six or seven acting performances by a male in the 21st century. Six or seven? I think you make the case. That's why this is the hottest take. Go on, make the case. Dark Knight Broke Back. Mm-hmm.

• 1:39:02Bill Simmons?

  I think if you're doing this list backwards and you're like, all right, I'm making my list of the 12 best actor performances in the 21st century and you just work backwards from it. Okay. Him and the Joker and Daniel Day-Lewis in There Will Be Blood are just automatic. They're one seeds. They don't even play anybody in round one. They just advanced to round two. Great. And then it, like, here are just some I wrote down. I probably didn't get all of them. Ledger and Broke Back, both guys in the master. Casey Affleck of Manchester by the Sea. Say this again. What is, what are we, what are we doing here? Best male acting performances of the 21st century. Okay, okay, okay. I thought this was limited to Heath Ledger.

• 1:39:45Bill Simmons?

  Okay, got it, go. Denzel in Training Day, Mahershala Ali in Moonlight, Javier Bardem in, I probably mangled that, and No Country For Old Men. That's. Leo and Wolf of Wall Street are the revenant, pick one. Both. DDL on Phantom Thread. Mm-hmm.

• 1:40:04Bill Simmons?

  J K Simmons and Whiplash?

• 1:40:06Speaker 01

  Sure. No argument.

• 1:40:09Bill Simmons?

  And my hot one for this is Daniel Kaluah in Get Out. I think he's fucking incredible in that movie.

• 1:40:13Speaker 01

  He's fantastic. He's great.

• 1:40:15Bill Simmons?

  But I'm sure there's like, you could put 20 more in there. But the point is Ledger definitely has one.

• 1:40:20Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 1:40:21Bill Simmons?

  And I think you can make a case for Bro- for NS.

• 1:40:24Speaker 01

  That's fine. I can live with that. I mean, but you know, I'm working on, all those people won, won or were nominated for Academy Awards. Every single one of those performances.

• 1:40:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:40:32Speaker 01

  I am doing a thing. I'm compiling the hundred, I'm gonna do the hundred performances of me ever never nominated for Oscars.

• 1:40:45Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 1:40:45Speaker 01

  Did I tell you about this?

• 1:40:46Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:40:47Speaker 01

  Uh, yeah.

• 1:40:47Bill Simmons?

  Podcast or written?

• 1:40:50Speaker 01

  Uh, I'm gonna write it.

• 1:40:52Bill Simmons?

  That sounds great.

• 1:40:53Speaker 01

  But I, so there's a bunch by some of these people who just, they didn't get anything.

• 1:40:59Bill Simmons?

  Did Steven Seagal make it or no?

• 1:41:03Speaker 01

  I'm still compiling the list, so your two cents, your two cents, your four cents are welcome.

• 1:41:09Bill Simmons?

  Are you doing the 21st century or all time?

• 1:41:10Speaker 01

  No, since 1951, which was in, um, uh, on the waterfront. I'm sorry, which is when, um, Streetcar and Desire came out. I'm seventy-five years since Streetcar.

• 1:41:22Bill Simmons?

  Casting What-ifs, um, there's this whole section in the late nineties when people are trying to make this movie. And you won't be surprised to hear that Gus Van Sant was involved.

• 1:41:33Speaker 01

  Oh, boy.

• 1:41:34Bill Simmons?

  And wanted to make it with Matt Damon as NS.

• 1:41:36Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:41:37Bill Simmons?

  And Damon, this is an actual quote, cause he kinda regrets not doing the movie, but also couldn't do the movie. He told Gus, Gus, I did a gay movie, talented Mr. Ripley. Then a cowboy movie, All the Pretty Horses, I can't follow it up with a gay cowboy movie.

• 1:41:51Speaker 01

  Listen, Matt Damon, you can, you can give press conferences all day long.

• 1:41:56Bill Simmons?

  You love that Damon quotes.

• 1:41:58Speaker 01

  I just, he's the best.

• 1:41:59Bill Simmons?

  They looked at Josh Hartnett, Joaquin Phoenix allegedly, who although he says like, nobody ever asked me, I would have done this movie in five seconds.

• 1:42:08Speaker 01

  Joaquin Phoenix says that?

• 1:42:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:10Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 1:42:10Bill Simmons?

  Van Sant went to make on milk instead. Movie dies for a couple of years and McMurtry, one of the screenwriters says, Gus couldn't get Ennis cast. That's what slowed it.

• 1:42:21Bill Simmons?

  Actors representatives were dissuading them from doing the part. They called it career suicide for a straight actor play a gay person.

• 1:42:27Speaker 01

  Larry McMurtry said this?

• 1:42:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:42:31Bill Simmons?

  And then ironically, your guy Joel Schumacher was attached at one point.

• 1:42:35Speaker 01

  I knew it!

• 1:42:36Bill Simmons?

  With Ed Norton.

• 1:42:37Speaker 01

  Oh! Woo! I knew it. This just screams, it's screaming out for the most tasteless director we had for so long to give it the tasteless treatment instead of making a beautiful work of art, the way, where our friend Ang Lee did.

• 1:42:55Bill Simmons?

  So it bounced around.

• 1:42:56Speaker 01

  So Joel Schumacher and who?

• 1:42:58Bill Simmons?

  Ed Norton.

• 1:42:59Speaker 01

  So it would have been Ed Norton and Colin Farrell.

• 1:43:01Bill Simmons?

  Edward Norton, my bad. He doesn't like being called Ed Norton.

• 1:43:04Speaker 01

  So Joel Schumacher, if Edward Norton and Joel Schumacher hook up to do this, Colin Farrell is definitely playing something in 2005, for sure.

• 1:43:13Bill Simmons?

  Ed Norton and Colin Farrell?

• 1:43:15Speaker 01

  Yep. That's, I mean, if it's Joel Schumacher doing the Colin, or McConaughey, McConaughey's in there somewhere.

• 1:43:24Bill Simmons?

  Ang Lee met with Mark Wahlberg for a role. Wahlberg declined because he was creeped out by the script.

• 1:43:31Speaker 01

  Tough, tough day for Boston.

• 1:43:44Speaker 01

  We have all been on a journey with this man.

• 1:43:47Bill Simmons?

  Listen, I'm just hoping he's in a good place in 2025.

• 1:43:53Speaker 01

  Talk about a man who is carrying around a lot of shit.

• 1:43:58Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:43:59Speaker 01

  And I hope he has worked it out because.

• 1:44:02Bill Simmons?

  He just sold his house to Paris Hilton. Is that a yes or no for working it out?

• 1:44:06Speaker 01

  He's been telling on himself for years. I'm just, wow. Okay, great.

• 1:44:12Bill Simmons?

  Ledger from the beginning wanted to portray Ennis and not Jack. Doesn't it with that character?

• 1:44:18Speaker 01

  That makes sense. That makes sense.

• 1:44:19Bill Simmons?

  And then, uh, Lee and Gyllenhaal, they didn't say what actors were the other ones, but there were some people who were just like, I'm not doing that. Uh, Hathaway got the script. They wanted to read for Alma. And she read it and she's like, I'm Lorene. I want to be Lorene.

• 1:44:35Speaker 01

  Hmm. Why? I wonder why.

• 1:44:37Bill Simmons?

  I don't know.

• 1:44:38Speaker 01

  It's interesting because she.

• 1:44:42Speaker 01

  I don't, she's such an interesting person to me because. I mean, I'm a, I'm a really big Anne Hathaway lover.

• 1:44:49Bill Simmons?

  I am too.

• 1:44:50Speaker 01

  All circumstances.

• 1:44:52Bill Simmons?

  Um, we've both had stock on in Hathaway Island for a long time.

• 1:44:57Speaker 01

  And I don't even.

• 1:44:58Bill Simmons?

  I've had a condo there since 2005.

• 1:45:00Speaker 01

  I don't even love Rachel Getting Married.

• 1:45:02Bill Simmons?

  I know.

• 1:45:03Speaker 01

  I think the star of that movie is Rosemarie DeWitt.

• 1:45:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:45:07Speaker 01

  I.

• 1:45:08Bill Simmons?

  She's in Untamed with Eric Bana.

• 1:45:12Speaker 01

  I love her.

• 1:45:12Bill Simmons?

  They're carrying a secret.

• 1:45:16Bill Simmons?

  And there's a murder.

• 1:45:19Bill Simmons?

  Eight episodes. Got to find out what's gonna happen.

• 1:45:22Speaker 01

  Am I gonna watch this?

• 1:45:24Bill Simmons?

  Listen, it's if, if people think AI is coming, I think the counter argument would be AI is already here.

• 1:45:29Speaker 01

  Oh, I'm already convinced.

• 1:45:31Bill Simmons?

  And they're like Yellowstone Park, murder, dead kid.

• 1:45:33Speaker 01

  Don't go here. This is not what we came to do. But listen, if AI can bring the movies back, then I'm all for it. Cause if AI, if people are already out of work.

• 1:45:44Bill Simmons?

  This to Craig, if AI can give us another round of Segal and Van Damme and Stallone, if we can just run that back.

• 1:45:52Speaker 01

  Well, no.

• 1:45:52Bill Simmons?

  That's not what I want AI to do. We, we can. I just make them, make stuff that I like to watch.

• 1:45:59Speaker 01

  I just, all right, just use it as a little, little, little, um, yeast, little starter.

• 1:46:04Bill Simmons?

  Oh, guess what? They've been using it all decade. Nobody wants to say it.

• 1:46:08Speaker 01

  I'm not surprised.

• 1:46:10Bill Simmons?

  Best that guy, David Harbour. He's got to win, right? Because he wasn't David Harbour until Stranger Things.

• 1:46:14Speaker 01

  He was, he was.

• 1:46:15Bill Simmons?

  He was a full-fledged that guy for years.

• 1:46:18Speaker 01

  And I saw him, when I saw this movie in 2005, I was like,

• 1:46:25Speaker 01

  who is that?

• 1:46:26Bill Simmons?

  You know him as David Harbour now, right?

• 1:46:27Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:46:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:46:28Bill Simmons?

  You like the new setup where I can just turn to you?

• 1:46:31Speaker 01

  It's nice. I'm not like behind some camera. I really love it, honestly. It's great.

• 1:46:35Bill Simmons?

  Uh, Dionne Waiters award, we got Randy Quaid. Wow, you guys stem the rose.

• 1:46:42Speaker 01

  Got, although Anna Faris.

• 1:46:45Bill Simmons?

  Anna Faris first scene, Anne Hathaway's dad.

• 1:46:48Speaker 01

  Oh.

• 1:46:49Bill Simmons?

  Really bringing it.

• 1:46:50Speaker 01

  Yeah. Who is that actor? Do we even know? I don't know.

• 1:46:52Bill Simmons?

  Don't know who that actor is. Uh, the cabin guy named Randall, down low Randall. He's got a cabin. And then, uh.

• 1:47:00Speaker 01

  That's David Harbour, right?

• 1:47:01Bill Simmons?

  David Harbour. And then Linda Cardellini.

• 1:47:03Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 1:47:05Bill Simmons?

  I think she's really good in this movie.

• 1:47:07Speaker 01

  She's really good.

• 1:47:07Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, I've always liked her.

• 1:47:09Speaker 01

  She's, what's not to like?

• 1:47:11Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:47:11Speaker 01

  She's, she brings everything she's got to most of the performances she's, that she's assigned to.

• 1:47:17Bill Simmons?

  I'm a big fan of hers. I, she is like two good parts short, it felt like, over that stretch.

• 1:47:23Speaker 01

  She should have gotten an Oscar nomination for Green Book. What?

• 1:47:27Bill Simmons?

  What she, she got an Oscar nomination?

• 1:47:29Speaker 01

  Green Book. She's really good in that movie. I hate Green Book. I think it's one of the worst movies made in the last 50 years.

• 1:47:37Bill Simmons?

  We're gonna argue about that at dinner tonight with my wife, because my wife likes Green Book.

• 1:47:40Speaker 01

  Listen, some of my best friends like Green Book, Bill.

• 1:47:45Bill Simmons?

  I, I saw it for the first time.

• 1:47:48Speaker 01

  When?

• 1:47:49Bill Simmons?

  Uh, maybe five weeks ago.

• 1:47:52Speaker 01

  What?

• 1:47:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. I lied when that came out. I pretended I watched it and I didn't. I just didn't.

• 1:47:57Speaker 01

  Bill Simmons, what?

• 1:47:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:48:00Speaker 01

  You pretended to see Green Book?

• 1:48:01Bill Simmons?

  I was like, yeah, I saw it. It was fine. I never saw it.

• 1:48:03Speaker 01

  Oh, my God. So now what's the truth?

• 1:48:08Bill Simmons?

  The movie just ends.

• 1:48:13Bill Simmons?

  Mahershala Ali shows up for dinner at the end.

• 1:48:17Speaker 01

  One of the most depressing scenes I've ever seen in a movie.

• 1:48:19Bill Simmons?

  And they're like, he has nothing else to do in the holiday and they welcome him in. It's like, whoa, this scene's gonna be really good. The whole movie's been building for this. And then it's like, closing credits.

• 1:48:29Bill Simmons?

  They've been friends for their whole lives.

• 1:48:30Speaker 01

  I know.

• 1:48:31Bill Simmons?

  That, that, and it's like, wait, what?

• 1:48:32Speaker 01

  I have to say though.

• 1:48:33Bill Simmons?

  That was the ending?

• 1:48:34Speaker 01

  I just want to be clear about one thing. I want to, I'm not done with this.

• 1:48:38Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 1:48:38Speaker 01

  I want to be clear. I loathe this movie. I, I, to this day, am getting letters from people who are mad at me.

• 1:48:48Bill Simmons?

  I remember your initial stance.

• 1:48:49Speaker 01

  Who are mad at me because I, I am really not into this movie.

• 1:48:53Bill Simmons?

  I actually think I did see it in 2018. I just forgot it.

• 1:48:56Speaker 01

  Stands to reason. Although I don't know how you could forget.

• 1:48:59Bill Simmons?

  I must have seen it. I, I'm joking about lying. I, I do think I did see it. I probably was just drinking wine and forgot it immediately happened.

• 1:49:06Speaker 01

  I don't know what's happening right now, but listen.

• 1:49:10Speaker 01

  The last scene of this terrible movie is actually quite good.

• 1:49:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:15Speaker 01

  Because it's the most depressing thing to happen to a black man in a movie in about 35 years. But, and I'm really, I really mean that, I think. But Mahershala Ali shows up at their house, their apartment. The, the racist he's been spending.

• 1:49:31Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:32Speaker 01

  All this time with being driven around the deep south where more racism happens.

• 1:49:36Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:36Speaker 01

  And the Viggo Mortensen character is likable because he's not KKK racist.

• 1:49:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:49:41Speaker 01

  He's just a stupid Italian racist.

• 1:49:43Bill Simmons?

  He doesn't know any better races.

• 1:49:44Speaker 01

  Right. Oops. Sorry. I didn't know. Anyway, Mahershala's lonely, has no place else to go, comes to the apartment for Feast of the Seven Fishes. And Linda Cardellini leans over into Mahershala's ear and says, I'm, I can't believe, I've told you all, I'm feeling really emotional right now. But like, I know you wrote the letters. What an ending. It's fine. They didn't, we didn't, because the dinner, they couldn't have sold that dinner. Cause it would have been terrible. They would have been all kinds of eggplant, like just terrible jokes, terrible jokes. It needed to end where it ended. And the ending is kind of sweet.

• 1:50:20Bill Simmons?

  I know you wrote the letters.

• 1:50:21Speaker 01

  Thing about it.

• 1:50:21Bill Simmons?

  Whoa, oh, oh, I guess we're, I guess I'm gonna get up now.

• 1:50:28Speaker 01

  So who wins the, who wins the on Waiters?

• 1:50:32Speaker 02

  I think Randy Quaid.

• 1:50:34Speaker 01

  Okay. I think you're right, actually.

• 1:50:35Speaker 02

  I think it's Randy Quaid.

• 1:50:37Speaker 01

  Recasting Couch Weird did it. Uh, Craig has a flex category.

• 1:50:40Speaker 02

  Eh, you kinda took it. I, I was gonna do the Rick Dalton Award for the best fucking acting I've ever seen in my life. And I, it for our generation with Heath Ledger, we have 10 Things I Hate About You. We have A Knight's Tale, which is a movie I really like.

• 1:50:54Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, Knight's Tale. Another good movie star performance from Heath Ledger.

• 1:50:58Speaker 02

  Totally. Brokeback and the-

• 1:50:59Speaker 01

  Beloved movie.

• 1:51:00Speaker 02

  Brokeback and then Dark Knight. And I, I think even with some of the best of the best, Leo, Daniel Day-Lewis. When I'm watching movies with them, I still see Daniel Day-Lewis in Leo DiCaprio. I think Heath Ledger is the only lead where I'm like, I don't, I don't see Heath Ledger. Like, The Joker and Brokeback Mountain and 10 Things I Hate About You, which is like a teen romantic comedy. The fact that he gets away with all three of those characters, and you never once think about any of the other ones, even when you re-watch these movies over and over. I think is so incredibly impressive at his age. I don't think anybody else has done it like that.

• 1:51:31Speaker 01

  There's no through line. I mean, it's true that we don't have enough data, really, to create one. But the, one of the, like, I don't know, silver linings of, of the tragedy of his life is that all the characters are these, they stand individually, discreetly apart from each other.

• 1:51:53Speaker 02

  I mean, the, the next time most people saw Heath Ledger after Brokeback Mountain was as the fucking Joker.

• 1:51:58Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:51:58Speaker 02

  And it, and it was like immediately at work, and it was the, one of the best performances ever. To go from Ennis to the Joker is like one of the, the most insane jumps in movie roles, I think, ever.

• 1:52:08Speaker 01

  It's really crazy.

• 1:52:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I mean, in a weird way, I'm always reluctant to give actors credit-

• 1:52:17Speaker 01

  For acting?

• 1:52:17Speaker 02

  For, for, for stretching, or like, doing something different from the other thing. Um, but I also think that-

• 1:52:26Speaker 01

  I don't know how old, so he was 26?

• 1:52:29Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, he was.

• 1:52:30Speaker 01

  At that point?

• 1:52:31Bill Simmons?

  He's 25 and Brokeback. He's like 21 when he does 10 Things I Hate About You.

• 1:52:35Speaker 01

  Yeah, and he's like 27, 28 as a Joker. Because I think the thing that is, that feels impressive now is who, who, who's going from that to that? Right? Like, who is, whose pendulum can swing that far from one direction to the other direction? The guy who just came to mind is Pattinson. Yeah, but there's a little-

• 1:52:57Bill Simmons?

  I still always feel like he's Pattinson.

• 1:52:59Speaker 01

  He's, but he, no, it's not that.

• 1:53:01Bill Simmons?

  And Shalhoub, I always feel like he's Shalhoub.

• 1:53:03Speaker 01

  I even feel like Leo is always Leo. Fair, but you know what the thing about the, wait, can I, well, I'm talking about young people. Ledger is always Ledger. Well, we're talking about, see, the thing is, we're, we have, we've already left the zone of young people. DiCaprio's 50, right? I was about to talk about Denzel. I had to bite my tongue, but in this new Spike Lee movie, he's doing another, this is another Denzel. I've never seen this Denzel before. It's very subtle, but it's very different.

• 1:53:33Bill Simmons?

  Younger Pacino became different people in weird ways.

• 1:53:36Speaker 01

  But the point, but Craig's point is, I don't know.

• 1:53:42Speaker 01

  It's very difficult now to imagine, given the dearth of material, the scaredy catness of the people managing people, the actual lack of talent, I hate to say. Like, I don't know who is capable of first giving the Brokeback performance and then giving that performance and getting cast as the Joker in Dark Knight.

• 1:54:12Bill Simmons?

  So you're agreeing with Craig?

• 1:54:12Speaker 01

  Yes. I'm just saying, you don't, you, we can't have this conversation for very long and still be talking about people under 30 years old.

• 1:54:20Bill Simmons?

  You know what else is a good category? The Steven Seagal shitting on himself award for most unbelievable anecdote from the actual film shoot.

• 1:54:28Speaker 01

  This is.

• 1:54:28Bill Simmons?

  This is a real category.

• 1:54:29Speaker 01

  Still here.

• 1:54:30Bill Simmons?

  Michelle Williams requested that her two male leads kiss in front of her to help her get in the right emotional place for her character, Alma.

• 1:54:37Speaker 01

  Good for her.

• 1:54:37Bill Simmons?

  She was involved with Ledger in real life. She thought it would help her. She had to goad both men into it as their first attempts were too half-hearted for her liking. Michelle Williams, ultimate method actor.

• 1:54:48Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:54:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:54:49Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, I don't know what Jake Gyllenhaal's preferred mode of acting is, but they definitely seem Heath Ledger and Michelle Williams definitely seem to be. It's funny, the marriages align with the way I think of them as actors.

• 1:55:03Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:55:03Speaker 01

  And I think Anne Hathaway and Jake Gyllenhaal are a particular kind of actor to me. And Michelle Williams and Heath Ledger are a different kind of actor. So it all kind of makes sense, but good for her.

• 1:55:19Bill Simmons?

  Half ass in her research, how many takes for the tense sex scene?

• 1:55:23Speaker 01

  Ooh, God.

• 1:55:24Bill Simmons?

  Do you think Ang Lee wanted?

• 1:55:25Speaker 01

  I was thinking about how many takes it would take to get it, to get it right. Or to make Ang Lee happy at least.

• 1:55:35Bill Simmons?

  Well, the answer was 13.

• 1:55:36Speaker 01

  Wow.

• 1:55:37Bill Simmons?

  And they used the 13th take.

• 1:55:39Speaker 01

  Whoa. Huh.

• 1:55:42Bill Simmons?

  Ledger grew up around horses and learned to speak in Wyoming and Texas accents.

• 1:55:47Speaker 01

  Texas accent.

• 1:55:48Bill Simmons?

  Filmed a movie in Southern Alberta.

• 1:55:50Speaker 01

  Oh, good Canada, doing another great performance as us.

• 1:55:54Bill Simmons?

  Williams sprained her knee in the snow scene. Ledger injured his hand when he punched the wall and they had a kissing scene and Ledger almost broke Gyllenhaal's nose. I don't know what scene it was.

• 1:56:04Speaker 01

  Probably the one Craig hates.

• 1:56:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:56:08Bill Simmons?

  Utah jazz owner Larry H. Miller.

• 1:56:10Speaker 01

  Oh no, I remember this.

• 1:56:14Bill Simmons?

  Remove the movies from the theaters.

• 1:56:17Speaker 01

  Oh man.

• 1:56:17Bill Simmons?

  In Utah, didn't want it, didn't have the right family values for Larry.

• 1:56:23Speaker 01

  Did he see the movie?

• 1:56:24Bill Simmons?

  He said, no resemblance of traditional family, which he believed is quote, dangerous.

• 1:56:28Speaker 01

  Did he watch the movie?

• 1:56:30Bill Simmons?

  Focus Features says, we'll never send another movie to Utah. How about that?

• 1:56:33Speaker 01

  Good for you. Oh, Focus Features, by the way.

• 1:56:35Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Great job by them. Brokeback Mountain, first major film to be released simultaneously on DVD and digital download.

• 1:56:44Speaker 01

  Is that significant?

• 1:56:45Bill Simmons?

  Apparently. For the films where I have some alternate foreign language titles for Brokeback Mountain.

• 1:56:53Speaker 01

  Oh, no, I'm so scared.

• 1:56:55Bill Simmons?

  Don't be scared. We have in French, Italian and Portuguese, it was titled Le Secret de Brokeback Mountain.

• 1:57:04Speaker 01

  No, you guys, what the fuck?

• 1:57:10Bill Simmons?

  Or Or O Segredo de Brokeback Mountain.

• 1:57:15Speaker 01

  No, come on, survey says, no.

• 1:57:17Bill Simmons?

  In Canadian French, the translation was Memories of Brokeback Mountain.

• 1:57:21Speaker 01

  Okay, thank you. See, the Canadians will also.

• 1:57:24Bill Simmons?

  No, you're not gonna like the Spanish titles.

• 1:57:26Speaker 01

  Oh, no.

• 1:57:27Bill Simmons?

  In a Forbidden Terrain and Secret in the Mountain.

• 1:57:34Speaker 01

  Forbidden Terrain is like 1999, 1992 Sagan.

• 1:57:39Bill Simmons?

  El Torre No Vida Do. And then in Hungarian.

• 1:57:42Speaker 01

  Uh oh. These guys usually make the best posters, so let's see what they got.

• 1:57:48Bill Simmons?

  To El Barat Gólagón, Beyond Friendship.

• 1:57:54Bill Simmons?

  Kind of a provocative title.

• 1:57:56Speaker 01

  Provocative.

• 1:57:57Bill Simmons?

  I think Beyond Friendship is a good title.

• 1:57:59Speaker 01

  I kind of like it. These, the Hungarians.

• 1:58:01Bill Simmons?

  Like if Netflix had a show that launched today and it was like Beyond Friendship, I'd be like, oh, all right, what's this about?

• 1:58:07Speaker 01

  I kind of like that. I actually do like that.

• 1:58:10Bill Simmons?

  So, Annie Pearl said she regretted writing this story several years later and said she gets too many fanfiction about alternative plots, people saying, here's what you got wrong, and just a lot of backdoor driving with the

• 1:58:28Speaker 01

  Oh, from men who were like doing fanfic on her. Backdoor, okay.

• 1:58:32Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:33Speaker 01

  I mean, we should just say, just real quick, this short story is a marvel. It is a marvel of concision, brevity, description.

• 1:58:42Bill Simmons?

  Have you read it, Craig?

• 1:58:43Speaker 01

  It's funny.

• 1:58:44Bill Simmons?

  No.

• 1:58:44Speaker 01

  It's great.

• 1:58:44Bill Simmons?

  It is.

• 1:58:45Speaker 01

  It's really great.

• 1:58:46Bill Simmons?

  It is a phenomenal, phenomenal piece of work.

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:58:49Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:58:49Speaker 01

  Depressing if you're a writer.

• 1:58:51Bill Simmons?

  Oh, this might make you cry.

• 1:58:52Speaker 01

  Yeah. Uh oh. I haven't done it yet. I haven't cried yet.

• 1:58:55Bill Simmons?

  Daniel Day Lewis won the SAG Award for There Will Be Blood and dedicated it to Heath Ledger's memory and said, "The final scene in Ennis's trailer was as moving as anything I have ever seen."

• 1:59:07Speaker 01

  I remember that.

• 1:59:07Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 1:59:08Speaker 01

  I remember that.

• 1:59:10Bill Simmons?

  Keith Ledger told Philadelphia Inquirer that there was a sequenced film for the movie where Jack and Ennis helped some hippies get their car out of a river. And it took three days to shoot and it was terrible and everybody hated it.

• 1:59:22Speaker 01

  Yeah, that's not in the story, that's for sure.

• 1:59:25Bill Simmons?

  And then Annie Pearl sent Jake and Keith an original autographed copy of her story and wrote, "To Jake, to Jake." And when she did it for Keith Ledger, she accidentally signed it to Ennis and then realized that it was like a, almost like a Freudian slip, like he became Ennis to the point that she said, and then she just kept it that way. And she told him, like, "I just can't believe you became that character like you did."

• 1:59:52Speaker 01

  That is.

• 1:59:52Bill Simmons?

  So here's the book.

• 1:59:53Speaker 01

  Wow. What a lady, by the way. The more I read about her, I mean, just one of our great writers.

• 1:59:58Bill Simmons?

  Great writer. Apex Mountain. Keith Ledger, I, I mean,

• 2:00:08Bill Simmons?

  because

• 2:00:08Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:00:09Bill Simmons?

  Dark Knight came out, he was, he'd already died.

• 2:00:11Speaker 01

  This is the apex, right?

• 2:00:12Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:00:12Speaker 01

  This is the apex.

• 2:00:13Bill Simmons?

  It felt like anything was possible with him.

• 2:00:14Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 2:00:16Bill Simmons?

  Gyllenhaal, I think it's later. I think it's in that End of Watch. What's that movie he made with, it's a good movie with, what's his face? Hugh Jackman?

• 2:00:26Speaker 01

  Prisoners?

• 2:00:27Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Prisoners.

• 2:00:27Speaker 01

  Prisoners is good. That's a Villnerve. It's, it doesn't.

• 2:00:31Bill Simmons?

  I like Prisoners. You like Prisoners, Craig?

• 2:00:33Speaker 01

  I haven't seen it. It's keyed up enough. It's like the, I'm, as you know, I'm really torn about this director. But it's a good use of Jake Gyllenhaal and Hugh Jackman and Viola Davis and Terrence Howard. But the movie is nuts.

• 2:00:47Bill Simmons?

  Not as good as for

• 2:00:48Speaker 01

  And Melissa Leo, I think.

• 2:00:49Bill Simmons?

  Not as good as for Viola Davis as Black Hat, being able to be in that classic that we've already done the rewatched once. Ang Lee, would you go here or would you go Life of Pi?

• 2:01:00Speaker 01

  For Apex Mountain?

• 2:01:02Bill Simmons?

  It's probably here, right? Because he makes this and it's like anything's possible.

• 2:01:05Speaker 01

  Anything is possible. Like, yeah, I think it's, it's definitely, well, Crouching Tiger.

• 2:01:12Speaker 01

  It's probably this. It's this. It's this. Because he comes and makes an, like, well, he, he's a, he's a student of America, though. He's made so many great movies about, about the United States.

• 2:01:24Bill Simmons?

  Michelle Williams?

• 2:01:25Speaker 01

  No. Definitely not.

• 2:01:28Bill Simmons?

  Traumatized Michelle Williams wife characters?

• 2:01:33Speaker 01

  Hmm.

• 2:01:34Bill Simmons?

  I think it's Manchester.

• 2:01:35Speaker 01

  I think it's Manchester, by the way.

• 2:01:36Bill Simmons?

  Hathaway, no. Sheep.

• 2:01:41Bill Simmons?

  Lot of sheep. Might be the most sheep we've ever had in a movie.

• 2:01:44Speaker 01

  Uh, no.

• 2:01:46Bill Simmons?

  What's the answer to that, then?

• 2:01:47Speaker 01

  Il Quattro Volta.

• 2:01:49Bill Simmons?

  Okay.

• 2:01:50Speaker 01

  Uh, the great Italian movie that is just, it's one of my favorite movies. And if you loved it, like, just, just watch it. Very sheepy, if memory serves.

• 2:01:59Bill Simmons?

  Gay westerns?

• 2:02:01Speaker 01

  Oh. Yes, but it did inspire some, some actual gay cowboy.

• 2:02:09Bill Simmons?

  What was the movie I didn't like with Benedict Cumberbatch much later? It wasn't a western.

• 2:02:14Speaker 01

  Oh, The Power of the Dog?

• 2:02:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I didn't like that movie.

• 2:02:17Speaker 01

  Uh, doesn't really work for me either.

• 2:02:19Bill Simmons?

  That's another one of those Oscar contenders where like, six years later, you go, wait, what happened?

• 2:02:24Speaker 01

  It's kind of how you know the movie's changed, too. Like, I mean, that's a movie that really spoke to my brain more than it did in anything else.

• 2:02:31Bill Simmons?

  Um, that's all I got for Apex Mountain. This'll be fun, though. Cruise or Hanks?

• 2:02:37Speaker 01

  I, this is a, um.

• 2:02:39Bill Simmons?

  And by the way, you can go any age range for either guy. So for these guys, you would go twenties, Cruise or twenties, Hanks.

• 2:02:47Speaker 01

  This is the tragedy of this movie.

• 2:02:49Bill Simmons?

  Or you could go Cruise as the Randy Quaid character. You can do whatever you want.

• 2:02:52Speaker 01

  But this is why this movie was such a big deal. Is because there's no moment in time, maybe in the seventies, you could have got Pacino and Kazell to do this or something like that. But then like, what are they doing in Wyoming?

• 2:03:04Bill Simmons?

  I think Pacino and Kazell absolutely would have done this. Pacino fucking made Cruising.

• 2:03:08Speaker 01

  Right, of course.

• 2:03:08Bill Simmons?

  One of the five greatest movies of all time.

• 2:03:10Speaker 01

  I don't think that Tom Cruise would have gone near this thing with a, like, any era of Tom Cruise.

• 2:03:16Bill Simmons?

  So Tom Cruise is the answer because he could have played Jack Twist. I don't think he would have played Jack Twist.

• 2:03:21Speaker 01

  Would not have played Jack.

• 2:03:23Bill Simmons?

  Top Gun era Tom Cruise would be like, my next movie is Brokeback Mountain.

• 2:03:27Speaker 01

  But he, but, but the thing about him is he totally could have played Jack Twist.

• 2:03:31Bill Simmons?

  He would have been a really good Jack Twist.

• 2:03:32Speaker 01

  He would have been a really good Jack Twist.

• 2:03:34Bill Simmons?

  We could have had a real laugh at this. There could have been a running scene though, where like, one of the sheep gets away and he's just sprinting.

• 2:03:41Speaker 01

  Well, there are those moments where Jake Gyllenhaal is really kind of just enjoying himself being drunk as Jack.

• 2:03:48Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. That, he gets a little cruisy-ish.

• 2:03:51Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, I don't know. I feel like.

• 2:03:53Bill Simmons?

  About Scorsese or Spielberg? Probably Spielberg.

• 2:04:00Speaker 01

  I don't know. It's a great question. Spielberg is the obvious answer.

• 2:04:03Bill Simmons?

  Scorsese's Brokeback Mountain would have been.

• 2:04:06Speaker 01

  But Scorsese.

• 2:04:06Bill Simmons?

  Just them doing bumps with the beans.

• 2:04:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, I don't know. I, I feel like it would be interesting to see what choices. I love movie director karaoke, right?

• 2:04:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:17Speaker 01

  Like, when given the opportunity to, to inhabit the filmmaking of another great director, what does a great director do? It doesn't happen very often, but every once in a while you get something like Gus Van Sant's Remake a Psycho or something. I'd be curious to see, like, Scorsese try and do a Bergman or a Brokeback Mountain.

• 2:04:38Bill Simmons?

  What was the one he did in the nineties? Age of Innocence?

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:04:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:04:41Speaker 01

  Oh, I mean, Great Case of G- for example, that's Good Bill. That's one of my favorite Scorsese's, by the way.

• 2:04:49Bill Simmons?

  What role would Philip Seymour Hoffman have played?

• 2:04:52Speaker 01

  Oh, Randy Quaid's character.

• 2:04:53Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, I had that as well. Picky Knits. Well, you already, one of mine was, could you really eat beans for that many months?

• 2:05:00Speaker 01

  But you said yes. We passed up a chance for Tommy.

• 2:05:05Bill Simmons?

  How's the peepin?

• 2:05:06Speaker 01

  How's the peepin?

• 2:05:06Bill Simmons?

  Oh, Randy. Copping is Randy Quaid.

• 2:05:08Speaker 01

  Literally peepin' on the two guys.

• 2:05:11Bill Simmons?

  Hey, Jack Twist. How's the peepin?

• 2:05:15Speaker 01

  Anyway, go on, sorry.

• 2:05:16Bill Simmons?

  How's the peepin?

• 2:05:21Bill Simmons?

  Pick and Knits, the, uh, this is from my wife, who's seen this movie too many times. Anne Hathaway as a newborn, and it drives my wife crazy when babies are in movies, but they're clearly like four months old. And it's just, she wanted me to put that in the pod. She's like, just let's all get better Hollywood with when we have newborn babies and a newborn baby scene.

• 2:05:46Speaker 02

  She's got child labor issues.

• 2:05:49Bill Simmons?

  She's like, don't have the baby be four months old.

• 2:05:52Speaker 02

  Oh, interesting. Okay. Interesting. I hear that character.

• 2:05:54Bill Simmons?

  Alma Junior, we meant, we've mentioned a lot of the Pick and Knits already. Jack's mom saying, you come back and see us again. Put that invitation in my back pocket. I have more unanswerable questions than Pick and Knits.

• 2:06:10Speaker 02

  Okay. Can I have a, can I add a picking it?

• 2:06:12Bill Simmons?

  Please.

• 2:06:12Speaker 02

  Hey, Ennis, maybe use the fishing gear once. He didn't know. He just, he just doesn't respect her. What are they eating out there? It's just such a McDonald's. What? In the middle of Wyoming? They're just stopping. Are they just eating beans? They're, they're probably, I don't know. Use the fishing gear. Okay, now, wait, hold on. You actually are starting to make some sense. Yeah. This is, well, no, no, no, no, no.

• 2:06:38Bill Simmons?

  So I have a, I have a counter though. I think Ennis was so dumb about all this stuff.

• 2:06:42Speaker 02

  He's so wrapped up in his mom.

• 2:06:43Bill Simmons?

  I heard with him, like, oh, I should pretend I fish.

• 2:06:46Speaker 02

  He doesn't respect her at all. Yeah. I understand that as like a choice, but man, ridiculous that you would never even open it, use it. He never even saw the note. He never opened it? They went for, how many years was he doing this? He never opened the box? Also like, yeah, no, I mean, it's, it's, but again. It's a sign of how wrapped up he is in everything. I will say, it's such a great character detail though, right? Cause it's so stupid of him. It's so, he, this Jack Twist, Jack Twist is a great fucking name, right?

• 2:07:14Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:07:15Speaker 02

  Ennis is twisted up in his feelings, his common sense, his decision making, like. But also maybe actually fish and eat the fish. I don't know. But this raises. I think Jack was, maybe, maybe Jack was like bringing steaks or something.

• 2:07:28Bill Simmons?

  This raises a key point though. I had this on unanswered, but we could put it in pick and nits. What did these guys do for a week if they weren't fishing? Unless it was just straight sex for 24 hours a day, like they, they weren't like.

• 2:07:42Speaker 02

  Hanging out, going on walks.

• 2:07:43Speaker 01

  They're just, yeah.

• 2:07:44Bill Simmons?

  But that's the thing, like.

• 2:07:45Speaker 01

  But you'd think they fucking fish.

• 2:07:47Bill Simmons?

  You wouldn't need the fishing. What else are they doing?

• 2:07:49Speaker 02

  That's what I'm saying.

• 2:07:50Bill Simmons?

  There's no TV. There's, are they doing like hikes?

• 2:07:53Speaker 01

  You know what I think?

• 2:07:54Speaker 02

  You know what I think?

• 2:07:55Bill Simmons?

  They've like, hey, let's do a hike.

• 2:07:56Speaker 01

  I'm sure Jack, I'm sure Jack brought the fishing gear. I guess.

• 2:08:02Bill Simmons?

  I think they would have had to have fished.

• 2:08:04Speaker 02

  I would think so.

• 2:08:05Bill Simmons?

  What are they gonna do?

• 2:08:06Speaker 01

  Jack brought the fishing gear.

• 2:08:08Speaker 02

  They're gonna go kill elk every time?

• 2:08:09Speaker 01

  They used Jack's, they didn't use Ennis's. Like, maybe Jack was bringing other stuff, but just in the story, the thing that's beautiful about it is the way time passes and she names all the geological.

• 2:08:23Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:08:23Speaker 01

  And physical locations that they spend all this time.

• 2:08:26Speaker 02

  Devastating scene, yeah.

• 2:08:27Speaker 01

  Oh my God, you guys went all over. They, they spent a lot of time together, but um, and it, it's still when they have that fight, Jake Gyllenhaal's character, like Jack still is like, you think you might be able to get by on two high altitude fucks once or twice a year, but not me. I need to be fucking a lot more than twice a year at this altitude. Anyway.

• 2:08:52Speaker 02

  What's the altitude?

• 2:08:52Speaker 01

  Going to Mexico.

• 2:08:53Speaker 02

  Do you, do you not last as long at altitude?

• 2:08:56Speaker 01

  Nah, me, me personally?

• 2:08:57Speaker 02

  No, like in general.

• 2:08:58Bill Simmons?

  High altitude fucks?

• 2:08:59Speaker 01

  Cause not an issue for me.

• 2:09:01Speaker 02

  I didn't know why he pointed out high altitude.

• 2:09:03Speaker 01

  It's just a great line. It's just a great line.

• 2:09:06Speaker 02

  I didn't know if you like, don't last as long at high altitude or, or if that's a thing. I didn't know why he pointed that out.

• 2:09:11Speaker 01

  Well, I mean, if you think about what he's asking.

• 2:09:13Speaker 02

  Or you get tired quicker?

• 2:09:14Speaker 01

  The only place that Ennis will go is that far. He doesn't want to leave his area.

• 2:09:19Bill Simmons?

  I was trying to.

• 2:09:19Speaker 01

  And they're just, it's so secluded.

• 2:09:22Bill Simmons?

  I was trying to think of the funniest thing they were doing to kill time when they were hanging out. And it, it's definitely a board game.

• 2:09:28Speaker 02

  Yeah, cards.

• 2:09:30Bill Simmons?

  It's like they're playing spades or they're playing Monopoly.

• 2:09:33Speaker 01

  I just love.

• 2:09:33Bill Simmons?

  It's like, god damn, I knew I shouldn't have sold you the oranges.

• 2:09:38Bill Simmons?

  Saying, oh, you always get me with the oranges, Jack Twist.

• 2:09:41Speaker 01

  But I actually love that we are sitting here talking about how these two men spent their non fucking time.

• 2:09:47Bill Simmons?

  Well, they're there in a week in the middle of nowhere.

• 2:09:49Speaker 01

  I know.

• 2:09:50Bill Simmons?

  They had to have fish.

• 2:09:50Speaker 01

  But, but can I just say that the thing that I have not cried yet and I'm not going to, I take it all back. But I think that the thing that is so moving about this movie in so many ways, and the thing that I could not have appreciated as a 29 year old or whatever.

• 2:10:08Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:11Speaker 01

  Is what love is. And love at some point becomes so much about so much more than the sex.

• 2:10:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:20Speaker 01

  And I think that one of the things that-

• 2:10:23Bill Simmons?

  I tell Craig this all the time.

• 2:10:24Speaker 01

  I mean, as, as marital advice, as a married person to another married person.

• 2:10:29Bill Simmons?

  It's boss, you know, in the HR, when we do like our HR reviews.

• 2:10:33Speaker 01

  Well put.

• 2:10:33Bill Simmons?

  Have to give him some, some advice.

• 2:10:35Speaker 01

  Every year, it's the same note. Which is what? It's not all about the sex, Craig.

• 2:10:40Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:10:42Speaker 01

  There's more to it. I mean, but, but truly, honestly, I think that like, it was so dumb of me, or like,

• 2:10:52Speaker 01

  I think that the, the, the real kind of social genius of this movie and the people who hated it and never saw it, but accused it of being activist, they didn't understand what the activism really was. The activism is that these men are not shown screwing each other's brains out every 15 minutes. It's that we understand that what is going on on these trips, or at least I, watching it as a, as a person in a relationship and in love with somebody right now, is that there is so much more happening in these years than, than the fucking. And the real radicalism is that these two men have found a way to live more or less

• 2:11:36Speaker 01

  in harmony until, and it gets in his feelings and wants to murder.

• 2:11:42Speaker 01

  And that, that we've definitely never seen before. Like, we're, the three of us can sit around and talk about how romantic this movie is.

• 2:11:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, especially the other relationships are so bad.

• 2:11:54Speaker 01

  And the other relationships are so bad. And think about this, it's happening in nature, right?

• 2:11:59Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:11:59Speaker 01

  It's happening in the outdoors, um, in God's country.

• 2:12:04Bill Simmons?

  It's pretty rare when a movie can pull off, when you're upset that the characters didn't end up together. I mean, Casablanca is one of the most famous movies of all time, right? That's, this is something that's been happening forever. But movies try to, especially like every rom com tries to do this, every sort of whatever. And it's a hard plane to land.

• 2:12:25Speaker 01

  But here's another subcategory for you.

• 2:12:27Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:28Speaker 01

  When the relationship doesn't work out because one of the characters made a stupid choice or made a principled choice that isn't stupid, but is principled.

• 2:12:36Bill Simmons?

  Or in Manchester by the Seas case, burned their house down?

• 2:12:41Speaker 01

  Whatever.

• 2:12:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, that's the worst case scenario in this.

• 2:12:44Speaker 01

  But when the, but, but that doesn't count because it's not a love story. But when the love story doesn't work out.

• 2:12:49Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:12:50Speaker 01

  Because somebody just can't do it.

• 2:12:54Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:12:55Speaker 01

  That is really, that's a very tricky and, and to me, really moving way of thinking about love too.

• 2:13:05Bill Simmons?

  You know what's a good version of this, weirdly, is Big.

• 2:13:09Speaker 01

  Ooh, oh, interesting.

• 2:13:12Bill Simmons?

  Even though it is not age well.

• 2:13:15Speaker 01

  Because?

• 2:13:16Bill Simmons?

  Because she's.

• 2:13:17Speaker 01

  Talk about bad.

• 2:13:18Bill Simmons?

  The kid's about to be 12 again and she's like, hey, give me a call in a couple of years. It's like, whoa, we've talked about it rewatchables. But it's like that kind of, these two actually might've been soulmates and it just can't work out. Because, by the way, he's actually 12.

• 2:13:31Speaker 01

  I think Elizabeth Perkins would've waited. I think she really would've.

• 2:13:34Bill Simmons?

  She's great in that movie.

• 2:13:35Speaker 01

  She sure is.

• 2:13:36Bill Simmons?

  Um, wait, we have a couple more categories before we go. Is this movie better with Wayne Jenkins, Danny Trejo, Doris Burke, Sam Jackson, Nell, Byron Mayo, Tony Romo, Chris Collinsworth, Daniel Plainview, Long Legs, or Wilford Brimley in The Firm?

• 2:13:54Speaker 01

  I mean.

• 2:13:57Bill Simmons?

  Can we, can we test drive Sam Jackson's role in this?

• 2:14:02Speaker 01

  As, as the David Harbour character perhaps?

• 2:14:05Bill Simmons?

  Not a lot of blacks in this movie. I don't.

• 2:14:07Speaker 01

  Not a lot. There is zero.

• 2:14:09Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. There's zero blacks.

• 2:14:11Speaker 01

  Are you expecting to see some?

• 2:14:13Bill Simmons?

  I'm just trying to figure out how Sam Jackson.

• 2:14:15Speaker 01

  Well, you know, if they were making this movie now, they would, they would find a way to put a black person in it. And I would object.

• 2:14:21Bill Simmons?

  Could Sam Jackson?

• 2:14:22Speaker 01

  Unless it was Kanye West, which would make.

• 2:14:24Bill Simmons?

  Could Sam Jackson be fishing? Fishing like near these guys?

• 2:14:28Speaker 01

  What the fuck are those guys doing?

• 2:14:30Bill Simmons?

  That's like Sam Jackson.

• 2:14:31Speaker 01

  Well, what would Doris be doing?

• 2:14:33Bill Simmons?

  Doris?

• 2:14:34Speaker 01

  Doris Burke.

• 2:14:35Bill Simmons?

  I want you to watch Jack Twist. How he maneuvers these sheep around. There is nobody better. He is in full scale. His, he knows what his herd is and what the other herd is.

• 2:14:50Bill Simmons?

  And this is just a masterclass Wesley.

• 2:14:54Speaker 01

  Oh, nobody cooks beans like Jack Twist.

• 2:14:59Bill Simmons?

  Just one Oscar, who gets it? One of the tougher ones in a while, because they could go the movie Heath Ledger or Ang Lee. And Ang Lee won the Oscar and Score won the Oscar.

• 2:15:09Speaker 01

  I think you'd give it to the movie.

• 2:15:12Bill Simmons?

  I think it goes, I'm down with that.

• 2:15:13Speaker 01

  Is that why you honor everybody?

• 2:15:15Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:15:15Speaker 01

  It's, it's the just thing to do.

• 2:15:17Bill Simmons?

  Probably an answerable questions at the end. So Jack Twist had kind of moved on to our guy David Harbour?

• 2:15:24Speaker 01

  Yes, begrudgingly.

• 2:15:26Bill Simmons?

  Begrudgingly. He was never over. This is a love of your life situation. But also Jack made it clear, like, I need to twist. Did we need a, did we need Edith at the end to be like, he goes up against the shirt and is like, fuck this guy.

• 2:15:43Bill Simmons?

  Why don't you give this to the cabin guy fucker?

• 2:15:47Bill Simmons?

  It just gets bad.

• 2:15:48Speaker 01

  But you know who didn't come see the parents?

• 2:15:51Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, David Harbour.

• 2:15:51Speaker 01

  Didn't offer to bury the ashes or take the ashes to Brokeback Mountain? David Harbour.

• 2:15:58Bill Simmons?

  This is really good stuff here for unanswerable questions. In 2010, Anne Hathaway gave an interview about this movie and she said she had no idea whether Lorene told the truth or not in the phone conversation after Jack died.

• 2:16:12Speaker 01

  I love that.

• 2:16:14Bill Simmons?

  It gets better. She shot two takes of the scene. One in which Lorene knew what was going on and knew about the gay bashing and one in which she had no idea it was a terrible accident with a car tire. Shots from both takes were edited together in the final movie.

• 2:16:31Speaker 01

  Ah.

• 2:16:32Bill Simmons?

  And she still doesn't know what Ang Lee thought the character knew. And she says, Ang knows the truth in her head. It's not poor to me, the ambiguity is what is the strength of the scene and why it's heartbreaking.

• 2:16:42Speaker 01

  Can we just?

• 2:16:43Bill Simmons?

  Great stuff by Ang Lee.

• 2:16:45Speaker 01

  Ang Lee, man.

• 2:16:46Bill Simmons?

  Do this one way, do this this way, and I don't know what I want yet.

• 2:16:49Speaker 01

  He had two editors on this movie, I believe, and one of whom, one of them passed away during post-production. And, or at some point during the production of the movie. And I, I just, I, I love Anne Hathaway so much as a professional person.

• 2:17:06Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:17:07Speaker 01

  And I love that she, I love listening to her talk about how she does her job. And trade secrets.

• 2:17:15Bill Simmons?

  She took shit for really loving being an actor and being kind of artsy fartsy about it.

• 2:17:20Speaker 01

  But this is how we got where we got though.

• 2:17:21Bill Simmons?

  But now it's back. People are back in, like Devil Wears Prada 2 is gonna make a kajillion dollars. And that's gonna be her exclamation point career moment, I think.

• 2:17:30Speaker 01

  Which?

• 2:17:30Bill Simmons?

  If it's good.

• 2:17:31Speaker 01

  I have mixed feelings about, but either way, I just, I, enough with, enough with these AARP quals. I don't like.

• 2:17:39Bill Simmons?

  This is a sequel I fully support. I want to know what's going on with these characters, like,

• 2:17:43Speaker 01

  Do you really?

• 2:17:43Bill Simmons?

  Does Adrian Grenier have a food truck?

• 2:17:47Bill Simmons?

  He makes a hell of a grilled cheese.

• 2:17:50Bill Simmons?

  He's set up in Boston, LA.

• 2:17:52Speaker 01

  Not in, not in, not in Eric Adams, New York he doesn't.

• 2:17:56Bill Simmons?

  I'm gonna leave that alone. What piece of memorabilia would you want or not want from this movie?

• 2:18:03Speaker 01

  I mean, I'm just gonna be really basic and ask for the shirts.

• 2:18:06Bill Simmons?

  So the shirt sold on eBay in 2006 for a hundred and $1,000. I have no idea what the worth now.

• 2:18:11Speaker 01

  That's it?

• 2:18:12Bill Simmons?

  This 2006. I think now there'd be probably, especially the Heath Ledger one.

• 2:18:17Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:18:17Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Coach Finstock Award, Best Life Lesson.

• 2:18:23Speaker 01

  Um, wait, what I can't remember with this category, is it as expressed in the movie? Or the lesson I've learned about life from the movie?

• 2:18:31Bill Simmons?

  It's the lesson from the movie.

• 2:18:35Speaker 01

  Follow your heart.

• 2:18:36Bill Simmons?

  I think that's it. I was gonna say, when you're in love, when you're in love.

• 2:18:39Speaker 01

  Yeah. Although the movie does have some advice for everybody else. Uh, what is it? Um, if you can't fix it, then you gotta stay in it. Or if you can't, if you can't fix it, then you gotta stand it. Like.

• 2:18:56Bill Simmons?

  I had, there's a, he, there's an NS quote in here when he says, when you got nothing, you don't need nothing. I said, that's pretty good. That would have been a good high school yearbook quote.

• 2:19:05Speaker 01

  That's, I, that defeatism is not working for me. I think Andy Prouse fixing it and staying in it. That's, that's genius and true.

• 2:19:15Bill Simmons?

  What do you have for a double feature choice?

• 2:19:17Speaker 01

  Moonlight.

• 2:19:19Bill Simmons?

  I, I thought Dark Knight to get both sides of Ledger.

• 2:19:22Speaker 01

  Wow, interesting. Oh, that's great. I love that.

• 2:19:25Bill Simmons?

  But I like the Moonlight's good too, though.

• 2:19:27Speaker 01

  I like that.

• 2:19:27Bill Simmons?

  Who won the movie?

• 2:19:30Bill Simmons?

  Has to be Heath Ledger.

• 2:19:30Speaker 01

  Ledger.

• 2:19:32Bill Simmons?

  Tough beat for Ang Lee. I don't know what else he had to do. He's gonna do different takes for Anne Hathaway, set the scene, put it together.

• 2:19:39Speaker 01

  He got a little Academy Award.

• 2:19:41Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, Heath Ledger wins it though. I think this plus the Joker. He becomes one of the, uh, one of the most beloved actors, I think, of this century. But also one of the great what if acting careers.

• 2:19:54Speaker 01

  He, but the interesting thing about him is like, the myth of him is really about the things that we've been talking about. It's all the what ifs, right? It's not like his myth, the myth isn't like, is he still alive? Or the scandal of his debt? I mean, it really is about the work he did not get to do. And that, that to me feels really rare. Craig Corlbeck, first, first time in the new set with his own camera.

• 2:20:23Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:20:23Speaker 01

  This is really exciting stuff.

• 2:20:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:20:25Speaker 01

  It's good. It's almost like the offensive coordinator's camera in NFL.

• 2:20:29Speaker 02

  I'm in the booth.

• 2:20:30Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 2:20:31Speaker 02

  I feel like I'm doing a testimonial on Love Island.

• 2:20:33Speaker 01

  You should wear like a Niners warm-up jacket as your Steelers, Steelers OC jacket with the headphones on.

• 2:20:39Speaker 02

  Yeah. Um, I, I had not seen this, nor had Liz. We watched it together.

• 2:20:44Speaker 01

  What?

• 2:20:45Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:20:45Speaker 01

  Liz is like the, like she loves Jake Gyllenhaal the most.

• 2:20:49Speaker 02

  I know. I don't know. You know, I was 10 ish when this came out. I don't know. It's just like, for some reason, I never saw it. Uh, we both absolutely loved it. Just a beautiful movie. The end particularly is my favorite part. The last line of the movie you guys didn't mention, which Liz and I talked about for 20 minutes.

• 2:21:06Speaker 01

  Oh, I meant to do that.

• 2:21:07Speaker 02

  Jack, I swear.

• 2:21:08Speaker 01

  Jack, I swear.

• 2:21:09Speaker 02

  Beautifully vague and devastating.

• 2:21:11Speaker 01

  Diane Warren song that turned out not. I thought about putting that in Unanswerable Questions, but I think it's supposed to be Unanswerable, which is the whole point of Jack, I swear.

• 2:21:19Speaker 02

  We talked about it. We're like, what, what does he mean? And it was almost like, it's not even about that. Like you, you kind of know exactly what he means, even though the words don't make sense.

• 2:21:26Speaker 01

  Yeah. Well, in the, in the story, there's this great, like that, that, that happens at the very end of the story and.

• 2:21:35Speaker 02

  Oh, so that's accurate to the short story.

• 2:21:36Speaker 01

  Annie Prouds has this great line, um, this paragraph that basically where she says, answering, he's answering a question Jack never asked him.

• 2:21:49Speaker 01

  He never asked Jack to swear to anything, but here he was doing it anyway. It just like, he was so carried away. I mean, this character is so amazing. The, the ways in which he's always fighting himself and then these moments of truth come out and they come out wrong. But that to me, at the end of the movie is the one moment where he says an honest thing that isn't also using his fists or, you know, his forearms.

• 2:22:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 2:22:17Speaker 01

  To express it.

• 2:22:19Speaker 02

  It's one of the best movies of the 21st century.

• 2:22:21Speaker 01

  It's also such.

• 2:22:22Bill Simmons?

  Well, I can't believe you haven't seen it.

• 2:22:23Speaker 02

  I know.

• 2:22:24Bill Simmons?

  But it makes sense. Like you were 10.

• 2:22:26Speaker 02

  Yeah, I don't know.

• 2:22:27Bill Simmons?

  When are you gonna cue that one up when you're an adult, you know?

• 2:22:30Speaker 02

  Yeah, and so I'm so happy that I got to watch it. It's also such a depressing example of the decline in movie going. This movie made 180 million, which now is like 300 million.

• 2:22:39Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:22:40Speaker 02

  Which is insane. Like, this movie would have to be a TV show now, because.

• 2:22:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah. Oh, yeah.

• 2:22:45Speaker 02

  Movies are not a place where people go to challenge themselves. Like, I can't believe this movie made double what Crash made in 2005. Crash made 90, this made 180. And the fact that people in America were like willing to go to this movie in 2005, challenge themselves, sit through an adult drama like this, is just so remarkable and would definitely never, ever happen now.

• 2:23:07Speaker 02

  Have to be a TV show. It would be probably a really great 10 episodes that would win Emmys, but it wouldn't be a movie.

• 2:23:13Speaker 01

  Wouldn't be a movie. Couldn't be a movie.

• 2:23:15Bill Simmons?

  It would definitely, definitely be a 10-episode Apple TV situation. I do think as good as this movie is, the two actors have to be awesome in it for it to get to where it got to.

• 2:23:26Speaker 02

  It all has to work.

• 2:23:27Bill Simmons?

  It all has to work. You could say that with a lot of movies, but I think this one in particular, if you even mess up one of the parts, I think the movie gets, it's, the balance gets just fucked up.

• 2:23:39Speaker 02

  It's like this intangible thing where the two actors really have to, you have to believe that these two people, the one, the one moment you allow yourself to think about this is something other than a story being told,

• 2:23:55Speaker 02

  and that there was a production and people were on set all the time. You have to believe that these two people, when Ang Lee says, "Cut", these guys are gonna walk off and get a cigarette or a beer together, or a coffee, or, you know, stand under a blanket together. You have to believe that these two men playing these parts.

• 2:24:14Speaker 01

  Really do love each other.

• 2:24:15Bill Simmons?

  There's an alternate universe where this movie is made with like Ashton Kutcher and Orlando Bloom.

• 2:24:20Speaker 01

  This is why.

• 2:24:22Bill Simmons?

  It's like.

• 2:24:22Speaker 01

  Oh, you mean, and that's you mean.

• 2:24:24Bill Simmons?

  I'm just saying like they can't get.

• 2:24:26Speaker 01

  2005 appropriate.

• 2:24:26Bill Simmons?

  They can't get anybody else. And it's like, well, it's Ashton Kutcher's the name.

• 2:24:31Speaker 01

  I'm interested in, because in the story, they're not really good looking men. They're like, they're just men who.

• 2:24:37Bill Simmons?

  Oh.

• 2:24:38Speaker 01

  Like, I would, I probably would be attracted to both these guys in Annie Pearl's story, but they're not, they're not getting movie parts in 2005 based on the way she's written them.

• 2:24:48Bill Simmons?

  Right.

• 2:24:49Speaker 01

  And there, I think that there is something about a Danny McBride or a Shane Gillis, like more average looking guys who. I don't, or Jesse Plemons. I mean, these, we're saying these guys are too old, but like, I think there are all kinds of ways to.

• 2:25:07Bill Simmons?

  I know it should be more regular guys.

• 2:25:08Speaker 01

  We don't have regular looking leads. There's no, this doesn't exist anymore, right? There's no Gene Hackman. So to go.

• 2:25:15Bill Simmons?

  It really is.

• 2:25:16Speaker 01

  To go that route, you kind of almost have to look in unusual places.

• 2:25:20Bill Simmons?

  Yeah.

• 2:25:21Speaker 01

  And I think, I honestly think that if you, if, if Ang Lee were like, if the Ang Lee that made Ride with the Devil and Ice Storm and, and Hulk. If that guy got a hold of those of Danny McBride and Shane Gillis. Will Ferrell and John C. Reilly. I mean, maybe, but there's too much baggage.

• 2:25:44Bill Simmons?

  Yeah, there's too much comedy baggage.

• 2:25:45Speaker 01

  The baggage with Shane Gillis and Danny McBride is just, it's just, it just weighs less. You could probably get away with.

• 2:25:51Bill Simmons?

  Hold on, Shane Gillis on the phone. He's turning this idea down.

• 2:25:54Speaker 01

  He didn't like it.

• 2:25:55Bill Simmons?

  He said no.

• 2:25:56Speaker 01

  Creeped him out. Did he creep him out?

• 2:25:58Bill Simmons?

  He officially passed.

• 2:26:00Speaker 01

  Oh, all right. Well, that's on him. We'll get Nathan Fielder.

• 2:26:05Bill Simmons?

  Now Nathan Fielder.

• 2:26:07Speaker 01

  That wouldn't work.

• 2:26:08Bill Simmons?

  Prepared for anything for him.

• 2:26:09Speaker 01

  That wouldn't.

• 2:26:10Bill Simmons?

  Craig Corlbeck, thank you. Chris, thank you. First one in the new set.

• 2:26:14Speaker 01

  This is so great, by the way.

• 2:26:15Bill Simmons?

  I had a great time. I forgot we were doing a podcast like 10 times.

• 2:26:18Speaker 01

  Like, it's beautiful in here.

• 2:26:20Bill Simmons?

  Wesley Morris, you're back. We're filming another one later. That'll probably run two episodes after this that I'm excited about. Great to see you as always, my friend.

• 2:26:29Speaker 01

  Great to see you. Thanks for having me.

• 2:26:30Bill Simmons?

  You're welcome.

• 2:26:43Speaker 05

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• 2:27:12Speaker 04

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