503. Andrew’s Arrest: What Next?

Why has the disgraced Andrew Mountbatten Windsor been arrested? How damaging is this unprecedented moment for the royal family? How effective was King Charles’ response? Join Alastair and the former Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice, Lord Falconer, as they answer all these questions and more. __________ The Rest Is Politics is powered by Fuse Energy. To sign up and for terms and conditions, visit ⁠fuseenergy.com/politics⁠. Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ ⁠https://nordvpn.com/restispolitic⁠s It's risk-free with Nord's 30-day money-back guarantee ✅ Join The Rest Is Politics Plus: Start your free trial at ⁠therestispolitics.com⁠ to unlock exclusive bonus content – including Rory and Alastair’s miniseries – plus ad-free listening, early access to episodes and live show tickets, an exclusive members’ newsletter, discounted book prices, and a private chatroom on Discord. Sign up for our free newsletter at ⁠⁠therestispolitics.com⁠⁠. __________ Instagram: ⁠@restispolitics⁠ Twitter: ⁠@restispolitics⁠ Email: ⁠[email protected]⁠ __________ Social Producer: Celine Charles Video Editor: Josh Smith, Adam Thornton, Vasco Andrade Assistant Producer: Daisy Alston-Horne Producer: Evan Green Senior Producer: Callum Hill General Manager: Tom Whiter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 0:00Alastair Campbell?

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• 0:39Alastair Campbell?

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• 0:54Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:56Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley. But I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 1:09Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creve. And of course, the thing flashed up saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN and it was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying. If you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 1:32Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think you're not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this, or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 1:39Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/restorspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/restorspolitics and the link is in the episode description.

• 2:03Alastair Campbell?

  Welcome to an emergency episode of The Rest Is Politics with me, Alastair Campbell, and today not with Rory Stewart, who is somewhere on a half-term ski slope with his family, but with a very old friend and colleague of mine, Charlie Fortner. Lord Fortner served the Blair government in several roles, and the most important of which for this discussion were Solicitor General, Secretary of State for Justice, and Lord Chancellor. Because the reason for this special episode is the huge news, and it is huge around the world, this, I've checked, that Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor, formerly Prince Andrew, has been arrested on the sandring of his state, he's been taken into custody as his homes are searched, and he's being quizzed in relation to possible misconduct in public office. It's just the

• 2:46Alastair Campbell?

  latest chapter in a long saga involving Andrew and the child sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein, who ended his own life seven years ago now, yet whose impact continues to reverberate in so many ways, not least for the survivors of his crimes still seeking justice. And should say, Andrew Mountbatten-Windsor has repeatedly, consistently denied any wrongdoing. Now, Charlie, first of all, thank you so much for doing this.

• 3:13Speaker 02

  Thank you, I mean.

• 3:14Alastair Campbell?

  You're honoured. You're going to tell me you're honoured.

• 3:16Speaker 02

  I'm honoured, I'm privileged, yes. I'm sorry, I took that as read, really. But could I say how honoured and privileged I am?

• 3:22Alastair Campbell?

  Excellent. On a scale of one to 10, how gobsmacked were you to hear the news that the King's brother, supposedly the favoured son of the late Queen Elizabeth, is spending his 66th birthday in a police station, being grilled about a crime which, if proven, carries with it the prospect of life imprisonment?

• 3:43Speaker 02

  Well, absolutely amazed in the context of thinking about this from a sort of distance of a few years, but less and less amazed as two things have been happening. One, the release of information about Epstein from the Epstein files, and, as it were, everybody recoiling in horror in what they're reading about a whole range of people. But secondly, the increasing sense that the law enforcement... enforcement authorities in the UK would be bound to act if the idea that everybody is equal before the law had any meaning. So it became, I think, more and more likely that the normal steps in investigation would take place, not only as against Andrew

• 4:28Speaker 02

  Mountbatten Windsor, but also against, for example, Peter Mandelson, who got caught in exactly the same sense that the law enforcement authorities just could not do nothing.

• 4:39Alastair Campbell?

  What was really interesting and watching the whole thing unfold this morning was these police cars arrive. Now, were there media already there, striking out Andrew? Did the police tip them off that they were going to be there? But why was he arrested? Surely at this stage of investigation, wouldn't the normal process be that you'd perhaps make contact with his lawyer and say, would he come in for a conversation, or could we set up a meeting, or whatever it might be? Why would they go this heavy-handed? Is that to show that, are they deliberately saying, nobody is above the law, we're taking this very seriously?

• 5:15Speaker 02

  Well, I mean, I don't know. I couldn't agree more with you that it's quite odd that they arrested. And even if you've got a reasonable suspicion that a serious crime might be committed, you're only allowed under the law to arrest somebody if it's, quote, "necessary to do so". And the normal things about necessity are, are you going to flee the country? Are you somebody who might start to damage property? Neither of which I would have thought would be in play here. The normal, as it were, justification given for necessity is, quote, "to allow prompt and effective investigation". So the effect of arresting

• 5:59Speaker 02

  Andrew Mountbatten Windsor was, first of all, it means that the police can ask him questions, because if you're not arrested, you don't need to stay in a police station to be asked questions. And secondly, it allows them to take away from his home or anywhere else that he occupies, or on his own person. Evidence that might be relevant to their investigation, for example, mobile telephones or computers. You would very frequently arrest somebody who's not a flight risk or anything like that, because you won't, without them having the chance to, as it were, prepare themselves properly, ask them lots of questions.

• 6:38Alastair Campbell?

  Now, we understand, and I, you know, we don't know that much, there's wall-to-wall discussion and debate about this, but we understand this relates to his time as UK Special Representative for International Trade and Investment, UK Trade Envoy.

• 6:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 6:54Alastair Campbell?

  Which was a position that he had for about a decade, starting when, when we were part, part of the government. So it's not, so far as we know at this stage, about allegations of the sexual abuse for which Epstein has been convicted, and he was in prison, as we all know, when he ended his own life. Tell me about the charge misconduct in public office. Whenever I hear that phrase, I don't know why, but Boris Johnson comes into my head, but of course, he seems to have got away with quite a lot of stuff so far. What do you have to prove to establish that a crime has been committed related to misconduct in public office?

• 7:30Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, you've got to be a public official of some sort, and the most common charges are often against police officers.

• 7:36Alastair Campbell?

  Okay, and if you're a member of the royal family.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  I don't think you would be a public official for the purposes of this crime. I think that misconduct in public office means you've been appointed to a public office, and I think the courts would say, a public official does not include simply being a member of the royal family, because it's very, very difficult to identify what the role involves, uh, how would you judge abusing that position? I just don't think it was intended to apply to that. It's intended to apply to somebody who holds a public office like UK Trade Envoy, which he was for 10 years, as you've said. And then the elements are of the crime are deliberately misperforming that office in

• 8:20Speaker 02

  some way, and the classic example is a police officer who uses his position as a police officer to. Access, for example, criminal records for his own personal use to give to his friends or to damage his enemies. Secondly, the abuse has got to be so significant that it reduces the standing of the person in public reputation. There's got to be no reasonable justification for it. And it's got to be done deliberately, i.e. you've got to know when you're doing it that you shouldn't be doing it. It's got to be so awful as to make everybody in the public, not everybody, but reasonable people

• 9:06Speaker 02

  think this really is an abuse of your office and you've got to have no reasonable excuse for it.

• 9:10Alastair Campbell?

  That sounds to me like quite a high bar.

• 9:12Speaker 02

  It is quite a high bar and the sorts of examples that are given are the police officer who accesses criminal records. There's a case of a police officer investigating a crime who sexually hits upon a vulnerable witness abusing his position as a police officer. Another example, not in the more recent memory, but earlier, a MP who fiddled his expenses. That was said to be a misconduct in public office. So the the the elements here would be said to be, and I'm not saying this is right or wrong, you've got this job as a UK trade envoy. Your job is to promote UK trade for the country.

• 9:58Speaker 02

  If, and it's a very big if, if instead of that you used the job for your own interests flagrantly, that would be misconduct in public office.

• 10:09Alastair Campbell?

  And the other part that you mentioned there, which I think makes this a difficult bar, is when we talk about abusing the public's trust. The issue of reputation, particularly at the moment with the reputation of politics as it is, the reputation of of public life, that sounds to me quite a woolly. Thing, again, quite a difficult bar to cross. And this is unprecedented because so far as I can remember, I have we ever had a royal arrested like this before?

• 10:36Speaker 02

  Well, in modern times, no royal has ever been arrested. The example that everybody's citing is Charles the First, but what happened to Charles the First was that he lost a civil war. And the winners, the parliamentarians, then took him prisoner, like a prisoner of war. And he remained a prisoner of war until he was then charged with high treason and executed. He was never arrested like this because they were investigating a criminal offence. He was just the loser, as it were, who then paid the price of being the loser. There's never, ever, ever been anything like this in modern times, or indeed in pre-modern times, when simply what happens if you're a royal. You ended up on the wrong end of it, you ended up being killed or something terrible happening to you.

• 11:19Speaker 02

  But you weren't being arrested in the context of a rather well ordered criminal justice system.

• 11:24Alastair Campbell?

  And I mean, I I just wonder whether what's happening here, what one is a combination of things. It's the it's the unspeakable nature of Epstein's crimes, which we already knew about. It's the scale of his contacts and networks and operations and the cynicism of those who were involved in a lot of that. You've also had, including, I think, this morning, he did an interview on the BBC. When you have the the Prime Minister saying that anybody who can give evidence in relation to this should do. When you have a former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, producing evidence based upon his own analysis of

• 12:07Alastair Campbell?

  both the files and his experience when he was Prime Minister. Then I guess in a way the the police are being given permission, perhaps to go down roads that in the past they might have been very, very wary of going down.

• 12:20Speaker 02

  Is it more than permission? Is the pressure not absolutely immense to do something? And one of the striking, striking, striking things about this, though it may not be that striking, is watching how cases are investigated at the most. They normally take absolutely forever to get investigated. And if there is any degree of complexity, and there's very considerable complexity in this, you would, and this might be legitimate, expect the police to take months to reach a conclusion about what they're going to do, partly because they want to be on sure ground and partly because they don't want to make a mistake in relation to it.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  The search warrant in relation to Peter Mandelson's premises, the arrest and searches of Prince Andrew's premises, they've all happened at incredible speed. Because I am assuming that the starting point for these, or the point that has led to these investigations starting, is the the most recent releases of the three million documents in the Epstein case, which is only a month or two away, basically. So I think there's a sense that authorities have to act. So there is enormous pressure on the authorities to act and they have to be seen to be saying nobody's immune in relation to all of this.

• 13:46Speaker 02

  And of all the people in all the world who have previously been thought to be immune, it's the royal family. And so in a way, Andrew Mountbatten Windsor is the clearest demonstration that nobody is above the law.

• 13:59Alastair Campbell?

  Interesting, the King's statement, and the King's statement, we assume that the King and Downing Street, that nobody was tipped off in advance that this was happening. We don't know that, but I think we can assume that.

• 14:10Speaker 02

  I mean, I watched the television this morning, Buckingham Palace has said the King was not tipped off in advance.

• 14:15Alastair Campbell?

  So they very quickly, they hear the news the same pretty much as everybody else. Very quickly, they put together a statement in his name. I have learnt, so he's very much leaning into owning it with the deepest concern, the news about Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, not my brother, but Andrew Mountbatten Windsor.

• 14:35Alastair Campbell?

  And suspicion of misconduct in public office. What now follows is the full, fair and proper process by which this issue is investigated in the appropriate manner by the appropriate authorities. In this, as I have said before, they have our full and wholehearted support and cooperation. Let me state clearly, the law must take its course. As this process continues, it wouldn't be right for me to comment further. Meanwhile, my family and I will continue in our duty and service to you all. Charles R. And of course, what that's about is actually at a time when something is happening that will inevitably have people saying, this is so bad for the monarchy, this is so terrible for the monarchy.

• 15:19Alastair Campbell?

  That is him leaning into the sense of the institution is above all this. You're a very effective PR kind of guy, Charlie. You've had lots of experience. Do you think that was an effective piece of communication by his match?

• 15:32Speaker 02

  Put aside the question of PR, I thought it was an incredibly impressive statement. I mean, if you look at it, the wording is slightly strange. I just mean syntactically, not in its content. But the content was saying an incredibly important thing, which is my duty comes before my family. And that last bit, when he says we will continue in our duty and service to the nation, is a very striking statement, is it not, of somebody saying my family have to be sacrificed? And that's what he was saying, wasn't it?

• 16:08Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, that's exactly what I read when I first heard it. And I agree with you, I think it was a very deliberate emphasis upon the institution being more powerful than anybody who's within it. But I do think as a piece of public relations, you say it's an impressive statement, and I get that. But actually, I think what they have to do, because I mean, maybe we should talk a little bit about whether we do think there's a long-term impact upon the monarchy. In a way, they have to cauterize this, they have to see Andrew. That's why he's been expelled, that's why he's been lost his titles, that's why he's lost the name. But I think you could make the case that this has been coming for some time. Have they felt that maybe they are in a more?

• 16:52Alastair Campbell?

  More open to the sort of impunity that quite a lot of leading politicians around the world feel they can enjoy at the moment. Have the royals felt that maybe they're in that space? I don't know.

• 17:03Speaker 02

  The change for them must in part be the much greater visibility about things that Andrew did. It's not possible just to say, no, no, no, we're not going to comment on any of this over a period of time. I'm not saying that was their position, but all this information that's pouring out makes it incredibly difficult for them. I think this is immensely damaging for the royal family. I think that King Charles has behaved very well in relation to trying to deal with it, and I treat the statement he's made as completely genuine. But if your whole pitch is you're a royal family who gives an object lesson to the country, well, the fact that the police are now investigating Prince Andrew

• 17:48Speaker 02

  on abuse in public office indicates there's reasonable grounds to believe that he may have committed that crime. That is a terrible position. And if it's the family you're offering to the country, then the family looks like it may have a very big teak in it in relation to the way that he has behaved. Now, he may be innocent, he may be guilty, but this cloud now hangs over them in a way that in my lifetime, no cloud possibly to compare with this has hung over them.

• 18:17Alastair Campbell?

  If you go back to when the Queen was still alive and you had a period, she called it the annus auribulus, and you had a lot of things going wrong, you had pretty much all of the royal marriages of their children going through periods of difficulty, you had a sense of scandal surrounding them on all sorts of, all sorts of fronts, and they got through it. Do you think this is far, far more serious and far worse? And is that just because of the time we're in? Or is it because this relates to some of these awful crimes that Epstein we know was guilty of, which, which Andrew has consistently denied?

• 18:58Alastair Campbell?

  But where that has already reduced his reputation to frankly, very, very low.

• 19:04Speaker 02

  I mean, the allegations against Andrew, which may or may not be true, are so much worse than anything that occurred during the Annis Heribulus. And even there was a period of time when the Prince of Wales, Prince Diana, was was being critical, highly critical of the monarchy. That was in the context of a family that was dysfunctional. But this is so much more serious. And also carries with it this idea of an elite behaving in a way that was effectively abusing their position as being members of the royal family. That's, that's, that's the real hit, it seems to me. I mean, what he was, what he was said to be doing, and I'm

• 19:49Speaker 02

  talking here about the abuse in public office, which is now being investigated, was abusing its own position, it is alleged. I think it's so much more damaging than anything that's gone before. And the way it's now being reported gives the sort of corroboration to that. I mean, we are doing, we're having this conversation on the day he was arrested. There is literally no other news now apart from that.

• 20:15Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 20:16Speaker 02

  And I can't remember that happening on any of the days of the Annis Heribulus. Maybe the divorce.

• 20:22Alastair Campbell?

  Maybe the winds of fire, Charles and Diana divorce. But yeah, no, and this involves crime. That's the other.

• 20:27Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 20:27Alastair Campbell?

  This, this involves allegations that are criminal. One thing that Rory and I have talked a bit about on the podcast, Charlie, I'd be interested in your view, is the fact that the many, many more people from the United States of America, who are deeply enmeshed in Epstein's world, that they don't seem, with one or two exceptions, they don't seem to be getting anything like the public scrutiny or opprobrium that three Brits have done. Prince Andrew, as was Peter Mandelson and Ghislaine Maxwell. Do you think that's to do with? Do we have higher standards? Do we have a more inquisitive media?

• 21:11Alastair Campbell?

  Or is, do we have a more independent policing and legal system?

• 21:15Speaker 02

  No, I mean, there are some people who are getting a hard time in America. For example, Larry Summers, who used to be the president of Harvard and the secretary of the treasury under Clinton, he's getting a pretty hard time. I mean, I find extraordinary that there seems very little kickback on Trump in relation to it. Who's been most named it is said in the Epstein files. Some people say it's up to a million times, but I don't know if that's just repeats or press cuttings. Is it because Trump has completely cauterized himself from sexual scandal in a whole variety of ways? So you can't kill him in relation to that politically. And once he's immune, then people aren't very interested.

• 22:00Speaker 02

  Whereas here, the royal family are so much more an object of interest. I mean, it's very odd that it's Peter Mandelson and Andrew Mountbatten Windsor, who are going to, as far as one can see, maybe pay the biggest price of the Epstein scandal, more than anybody in America at all. Is it because we, because we've got a low enforcement arrangement that will actually follow it up?

• 22:25Alastair Campbell?

  Well, the, the, the truth is that the Department of Justice under Pam Bondi, we saw that in an inquiry she was, she was, she was doing. It was horrific to watch, to think she was like, she was like your equivalent when you were kind of the, the top, top dog lawyer in the UK, that was her. And she was basically just giving a sort of political, political performance. But I think the, the thing about, about Trump, you had a guy, a congressman out yesterday, basically saying, when are the press going to start looking at all this stuff in the Epstein files about Trump? Where he says there are allegations of raping and killing children.

• 23:02Speaker 02

  Hmm.

• 23:02Alastair Campbell?

  And now, I just don't, I, I'm with you, I don't understand. I, I mentioned the word impunity. Has Trump so misinformed and so manipulated the public space? That the thing he said, I could walk down Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I'd get away with it with my base. That that is the world that we're kind of now in.

• 23:24Speaker 02

  Well, it looks like that. And I mean, even though he is a liar in so many respects. His authenticity gives him impunity, does it not? He is authentically not trying to present himself in the way that so many politicians do. There is no hypocrisy, although probably lots and lots of hypocrisies about Trump. But he is just as awful as he appears. You remember the Billy Bush interview shortly before the 2016 election when he described because he was a celebrity. He could put his hand down women's skirts and they didn't mind because he was a celebrity and wasn't that marvelous? Which would have destroyed any other politician, but simply

• 24:08Speaker 02

  made people think, oh, that's just, as it were, boy's banter and therefore he's genuine and nobody else is. But do you have to be awful to be authentic?

• 24:17Alastair Campbell?

  Well, that is a, it's a horrible thought if you do. I mean, I don't think you do. But I think there is a, I think there is a double standard and I think that the I think that the weaponization of justice, of course, the Republicans say that the Democrats did it to them and it's a sort of it's a, it's a tit for tat. So I guess perhaps we should feel that there's something better in our system. Anyway, listen, Charlie, we've, we've, we've added to the many millions and millions of words that will be said today about Andrew Man Man Windsor. I'd love to get Rory's view as he skis down another ski slope today. I think he's trying to qualify for the next Winter Olympics, but because of course he's, he's a huge, huge monarchist. He's a massive admirer of the king.

• 25:03Alastair Campbell?

  And will be, I suspect, feeling his pain right now.

• 25:07Speaker 02

  I mean, there's that one aspect of this is this will run literally for years now. So every three months or four months, there'll be a further development. The bail of Andrew Mount Bethan Windsor will be extended. Then there'll be a question of whether he's going to be charged or not. And is it, I don't know if you remember the Paul Burrow trial, which is on a scale of one to 10 is about half, and this is about 12,000. The trial, you remember the Jeremy Thorpe trial? I mean, this trial will be like the trial of the century.

• 25:41Alastair Campbell?

  If there is one, Charlie, if there is one.

• 25:43Speaker 02

  Well, if there is one, yeah, and we have to wait to see whether. But if there is a trial, it will be a trial that will have to be presided over by the Lady Chief Justice. It will take place in the Old Bailey. It will be a trial the like which has never been seen in the history of trials, basically. And this is two, three years down the track. And it's that sort of corrosion that is going to have a major effect. And Rory's views and what effect he thinks that's going to have on the monarchy is, is, is, is quite difficult because it's the family. And as it were, you can't change the monarchy because the whole point about the monarchy is it's you've got to keep on doing it generation to generation.

• 26:24Speaker 02

  It's not like you can change the Prime Minister. It's a, it's, we're all feeling a sense how well the King has done at the moment. But this long term corrosion is harder to assess.

• 26:39Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, although the next King, William, he's got a very good shot in the can already. That was it a funeral that they were at where Andrew was trying to torture him as they left the church. And it was perfectly clear that William did not want him anywhere near him. So I think that was pretty effective body language communication as well. Well, Charlie, thank you for your time.

• 26:59Speaker 02

  Thank you for having me.

• 27:00Alastair Campbell?

  Lovely to talk to you.

• 27:01Speaker 02

  And I hope to see you soon.

• 27:03Alastair Campbell?

  See you very soon. Take care.

• 27:04Speaker 02

  Okay. Bye bye.

• 27:13Speaker 03

  Here we are getting a statement from Number Ten. On that flight, with 350 passengers on board.

• 27:22Speaker 04

  The Great Game: Strategic Struggle Between Britain and Russia.

• 27:29Speaker 05

  We assess, Prime Minister,

• 27:33Speaker 05

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• 27:36Speaker 06

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• 27:38Speaker 07

  They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.

• 27:41Speaker 04

  Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. Got to ask yourself, do you want to play, or not? You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing!

• 27:54Speaker 02

  We would need to understand the policy context.

• 27:56Speaker 04

  All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today, and disseminated into an operation order, or FRAGO.

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• 28:10Speaker 02

  Yes.

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