24. SPECIAL: SUNAK AND JAVID RESIGN

Alastair Campbell and Rory Stewart respond to the breaking news that Chancellor Rishi Sunak and Health Secretary Sajid Javid have both resigned from the Government. How long can Boris Johnson survive as Prime Minister after two of his heavyweight ministers resign a few minutes apart? Instagram: @restispolitics Twitter: @RestIsPolitics Email: [email protected] Producer: Dom Johnson Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:04Rory Stewart?

  This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.

• 0:06Alastair Campbell?

  And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.

• 0:19Rory Stewart?

  I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Creef. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.

• 0:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?

• 0:49Rory Stewart?

  I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/rustispolitics. That's nordvpn.com/rustispolitics. And the link is in the episode description.

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• 1:43Alastair Campbell?

  Well, welcome to an edition of The Rest is Politics, which frankly Rory and I weren't planning on doing. We've already recorded part of this week's output. But given what's happening in Westminster tonight with first the resignation of Sajid Javid, followed very, very quickly by the resignation of Chancellor Rishi Sunak. I think it's fair to say that Boris Johnson is now in mortal peril. I'm very pleased to say that. I think he's the worst Prime Minister in our history. He should never have been there. But I think it's going to be very, very, very hard for him to survive the loss of a Chancellor and a former Chancellor. And I think you'd agree, Rory, that Sajid Javid... Of all the cabinet, actually, has probably managed to avoid falling into the Dominic Raab,

• 2:24Alastair Campbell?

  Priti Patel, Nadine Dorries category of just being a kind of lapdog. He's somebody who does still have a bit of integrity.

• 2:31Rory Stewart?

  Oh, he does. And he's actually a really likeable guy. I mean, he's in the leadership contest. He was the one of the, out of Michael Gove and Dominic Raab and Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt. I mean, it was really Sajid Javid that I warmed to most. He's a genuinely kind colleague. He's thoughtful. He's got a really remarkable story. And remember, he already has resigned once from a Boris Johnson government.

• 2:54Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah, because of Dominic Cummings.

• 2:56Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, resigned in fury because of what Dominic Cummings was doing. And Boris Johnson really pathetically failed to stand up for his Chancellor of the Exchequer against Dominic Cummings, who was at that stage, basically trying to humiliate the Chancellor and get rid of his staff. And I thought it was very good of Sajid to do it. And it's a big thing to do. I think people forget in politics that you take a big, big risk when you resign, because the chances are quite high that you, you don't come back again. I mean, if you look at someone like Matt Hancock, he resigned, I guess, now a year and a half ago. He would have been desperate to get back. But the chances are, it's going to be tough for him to do that. So, and Rishi Sunak, as, I mean, maybe this is a chance to go to his letter, but I, I noticed that he mentions in that letter that he thinks he understands this is a big risk and it may

• 3:40Rory Stewart?

  be his last job in politics.

• 3:42Alastair Campbell?

  Hmm. But I think it's, it's interesting. He, he, he talks about, you know, he says leaving ministerial office is a serious matter at any time. For me to step down as Chancellor while the world is suffering the economic consequences of the panic, the pandemic, the war in Ukraine, other challenges, a decision I've not taken lightly. I do imagine that these guys have genuinely wrestled with this. And also, Sunak, you know, he was one of the first to come out of the traps to say that Johnson unequivocally should be Prime Minister. He's a big backer of him on, on Brexit. But I think that there comes a point where people just feel that they can't defend the indefensible any longer. They've all defended the indefensible for far too long. I thought Dominic Raab on the airwaves this morning was just, it was

• 4:22Alastair Campbell?

  just, it was, it was stomach churning to watch him, to try to pretend that what Johnson, how Johnson had handled this sort of pinch, or whatever his name is, this latest kind of scandal is somehow. Defensible. And what did you make of Javid's, the tone of Javid's resignation?

• 4:37Rory Stewart?

  Well, it's, it's, it's an interesting letter. I mean, I think maybe we can come back to this a little bit. But one thing is that you, you need to understand that these letters are quite carefully written.

• 4:46Alastair Campbell?

  For sure.

• 4:46Rory Stewart?

  You, they don't give the impression they've just been whipped off in 15 minutes. But, you know, the, the key point in his letter, if people have a chance to read it, is he says, while I'm grateful for your continued trust and offer to continue in this role. I regret that I could not accept the conditions attached to the reapportment. It's crucial for the effectiveness of government that you have people around you who can give you clear and candid advice, as I've always sought to do. I also believe that it's important as leaders to have trusted teams that reflect the character and integrity that you'd wish to be associated with. So actually, Sajid is somebody who I remember in the cabinet was actually quite tough. I mean, he could be quite outspoken and challenging. I remember him being quite challenging

• 5:29Rory Stewart?

  to Theresa May, and my sense is that that's really important for him to be able to speak up. Remember, he's also unusual, unlike Rishi Sunak, who came into politics pretty young. Sajid Javid is unusual at having come in late. He was almost 40 when he came in. He'd had a very successful career at a very senior level, running a big investment bank in Singapore. And so I think that there are a few others like that. I think Nardim Zahawi is a bit like that. Unusual people who, having had quite a serious big career running things for 20 years. There's a, there's a limit to how much they're prepared to put up with.

• 6:07Alastair Campbell?

  There's also a very political element to Rishi Sunak's letter and an economic element as well. He says, I've always tried to compromise in order to deliver the things you want to achieve. On those occasions where I disagreed with you privately, I've supported you publicly. That is the nature of the collective government upon which our system relies, and it's particularly important that the prime minister and the chancellor remain united. In hard times such as those today, our country is facing immense challenges. We both want a low tax, high growth economy and world-class public services. This can only be responsibly delivered if we are prepared to work hard, make sacrifices and take difficult decisions. I believe the public are ready to hear that truth. Our people know that if something is too good to be true, then it's not true. They need to know that whilst there is a path to a better future, it's not an easy one. And in preparation for our

• 6:51Alastair Campbell?

  proposed joint speech on the economy next week, it's become clear to me that our approaches are fundamentally too different. So I think that that is about his belief that Johnson actually just says what the audience wants to hear, splurges money, makes false promises, tells lies. And it's interesting what you said about how these letters are done. I mean, I've lost count of how many resignation letters and exchanges I was involved in the writing of. I remember when Robin Cook resigned, when I said, Robin, I think this is the first time that I've actually not written both the resignation. And it was a joke, but he said, I can't wait to see whose diaries that appears in first. Sadly, because Robin died, it was in mine. But so they are very, very carefully done. Number 10 will have tried

• 7:34Alastair Campbell?

  to have get these toned down. They may even have succeeded. I just don't know. And it'll be interesting to see what Johnson says by way of reply. But I think the fact as well, that obviously people now go to all the other members of the cabinet and the fact that Wallace, Patel and RAB have immediately confirmed that they are not leaving, that will make Johnson feel a little bit like he's going to survive. But you know, the truth is, day after day after day, this guy's authority is draining. He now has no credibility. He has few friends. And don't forget, the vote of no confidence, 75% of his backbenchers want him out. So once the cabinet goes, I'm afraid he's toast.

• 8:14Rory Stewart?

  Let's just zoom out for a moment and then come back into the question of Rishi and Sajid and get into the details of that. But if we zoom out for a second to resignation letters, I was just looking at this Robin Cook letter. And what's striking about it is it's quite different to the type of letters which Rishi Sunak and Sajid Javid have written. So Robin Cook is of course resigning about the Iraq war. And what he says is, you and I have both made the case over the years for an international order based on multilateral decisions through the UN and other forums. In principle, I believe it's wrong to embark on military action without broad international support. In practice, I believe it's against Britain's interests to create a precedent for unilateral military action. Now, that's an interesting difference, isn't it?

• 8:58Rory Stewart?

  Because he there is very, very clear, this is an in principle resignation on the issue of the Iraq war. That's not what's happening here with Sajid Javid and Rishi Sunak, is it? With Sajid Javid, he's basically saying, you don't listen to my advice. And Rishi Sunak is basically saying, as a chancellor, look, we need to be much more careful in our management of the public finances and you are being reckless and profligate with the way that you do it. In other words, actually, Rishi is almost a sort of classic conservative, fiscal conservative, as many people speaking for the Treasury are. And his worry is that Boris Johnson is really going to loosen the purse strings at the wrong time.

• 9:39Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I wonder if, I mean, we've said before, we've discussed on the podcast, Rishi Sunak's what we call his defenestration. And I do think that Johnson was involved in all that stuff about undermining Sunak, about the green card and all that other stuff that we know about, about 3,416 scandals ago. But I do think that what he's doing there is laying down a marker about the debate that will follow Johnson's departure, which is about what sort of conservative party do you want? And therefore, I think what he's saying is, look, I've been completely done in. And I think that will become part of his argument. What they're not doing today is saying, we can't work with a liar anymore, we can't work with somebody so incompetent, we can't work with somebody who just lurches from scandal to scandal and cover up to cover up.

• 10:22Alastair Campbell?

  They're both finding, as Robin Cook did, but Robin Cook, I think, was more honest, they're finding in in principle positions, because they will all have to answer the question, Rory, every single one of them. You knew what he was like the whole time. Why did you put up with it for so long? That's what I'd like to ask both of them. But I do think Sunak sees this as his his way back in, that it's principled. It's about what sort of government they want. It's about conservative values.

• 10:45Rory Stewart?

  So I think the to zoom out one more level. Um. I think the other thing to understand is this is clearly from both of them, a coordinated leadership pitch.

• 10:56Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 10:56Rory Stewart?

  They have decided to lay down their mark and they're running for the leadership and they will have been looking for some time for the moment to move. And it's it's clearly coordinated. You you don't get two very carefully written letters coming out within fifteen minutes of each other. And you can see a hint of that, actually, in what Satya Javid says. He says in it. I would urge you to ensure the Treasury as an institution retains as much credibility as possible. The team there has impressed me with the energy and intellect they've brought to delivering the shifts in policy. So he's basically teed up. He said, you know, I'm leaving, but the key thing here is you've got to keep that Treasury team intact. Oh, surprise, surprise. Five minutes later, my friend Rishi Sunak resigns from the Treasury.

• 11:37Alastair Campbell?

  And should and should Rishi Sunak launch a leadership bid and should Rishi Sunak become leader of the Conservative Party? Who better than somebody who knows the Treasury from the inside, having been chanted the exchequer until the previous resignation, but Satya Javid? I get all that, and I think that I think that's right. I think they'll be very disappointed if there aren't others who follow suit. Whether they know that there will be.

• 11:56Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, well, I think it's really dangerous, isn't it? I mean, if we now go back to this stuff, because, you know, I I remember this plotting a lot against Theresa May, who lost a lot of people. It's very difficult coordinating. Um. Famously, when David Davis resigned from Theresa May's government over Brexit, he tried to persuade Boris Johnson to come with him, and Boris Johnson agonized for two or three days before doing it. And actually, after the event, about three months later, Boris Johnson was standing in a corridor. And one of my colleagues went up to him. He'd been given a miserable office by the whips in Portcullis House. A humiliating come down from being Foreign Secretary. And Boris looked completely Boris Johnson looked completely ashen faced. And he said, my one advice, he said, to this new MP is never, ever resign. Now, of course, in Boris Johnson's case, it paid off.

• 12:42Rory Stewart?

  In the end, after months of thinking he'd done the wrong thing, it put him in the position to then run as the outside count against leadership. So I think it's it's if. They're going to do it. It's a good move. But but let's just go back one stage too. It's fascinating that they've done it over this.

• 12:59Alastair Campbell?

  Well, it's a story. It's the tip. But it's the tipping point. It's the tipping point theory, presumably. It's like they see the authority draining. And I think they probably do think we said we, you know, in the podcast that we recorded earlier today, some of which will now presumably go in the cutting room floor. But we said that there comes a point where surely people who've got decent families and friends, where there comes a point saying, look, are you seriously going to keep traipsing around the studios defending this guy? There comes that point, surely. And Dominic Raab, Dominic Raab, to me, was extraordinary this morning. It was just embarrassing to watch him.

• 13:32Rory Stewart?

  Well, so let's, I mean, I think the other thing that probably went on the cutting room floor is we were talking about this, about whether somebody like Boris Johnson ever voluntarily leaves. And I was saying that actually, my experience back in the day in Indonesia with Su Hato, who'd been a dictator for 32 years, who people thought would hold out to the last moment, is eventually he did go as his cabinet collapsed around him. And Boris Johnson may, in the end, have to throw in the towel. But but listen, these guys, and here's another point. Rishi Sunak is very close to Oliver Dowden, who was the chairman of the Conservative Party, who resigned over the Tiverton by-election very recently now. And there they would have hoped to coordinate, and they didn't quite. So I wonder

• 14:11Rory Stewart?

  whether actually this letter wasn't waiting, that Oliver Dowden wasn't begging Rishi to come with him, whatever it is, two weeks ago now. And Rishi Sunak wasn't quite prepared to do it then, because this particular thing, I mean, just just with a Chris Pincher, is extraordinary. I mean, you've gone to tell us a little bit about Fiona's insight into what happens in the Carlton Club again.

• 14:33Alastair Campbell?

  Fiona claims to know that inside the Carlton Club, there is something called CAD's Corner, where CADs, I mean, I've never been inside the Carlton Club. It's riddled with conservatives, like, like, like, damp and rotting. There'll be rats running all over the place, I imagine. But yeah, Pincher's clearly, you know, Pincher by name, Pincher by nature is apparently what Johnson used to say of him. And it is incredible. Just think of it. The guy has a record. They call it inappropriate behaviour. They mean sexual abuse and sexual assault.

• 15:04Rory Stewart?

  So what do we think he actually, I'm sorry, this is a pretty vulgar conversation, but what do you think he actually does to someone fully dressed in a London club in their suit?

• 15:13Alastair Campbell?

  Well, he obviously tries to touch their privates or he tries to stroke them in parts of their body they don't want to be touched. Or maybe they do want to be touched. I don't know. I'm not a Conservative. I've never been in the Carstens Club, as I say. It could be some great orgy that goes on there every night, for all I know. But what I do know is that Johnson knew that. That is what was clear from Simon McDonald today, and yet appointed this guy as the person to whom MPs should go and report if they felt they were being sexually or inappropriately abused. I mean, it's just incredible. That alone he should resign for.

• 15:49Rory Stewart?

  It is incredible, but I also think, I want to make the case to you that-

• 15:53Alastair Campbell?

  Rory, don't make the case for the groper. Do not make the case for the groper. It will not end well. Whatever happened in your school, whatever went there, just do not go there.

• 16:02Rory Stewart?

  Okay. The case I want to make is that what Chris Pinter did was clearly completely unacceptable, very disturbing to people, and quite rightly, he resigned and has been thrown out. But remember that Boris Johnson has done things on a more horrifying scale.

• 16:20Alastair Campbell?

  For sure.

• 16:21Rory Stewart?

  I mean, constitutionally, lying to Parliament, parroging Parliament, trying to undo the entire lobbying rules in Parliament.

• 16:29Alastair Campbell?

  He is also, Rory, he is also a well-known sexual abuser. You know, Charlotte Edwards wrote that piece about how she was sitting at dinner and felt this hand grabbing flesh on her thigh, later discovered that he was doing exactly the same thing at the same time to the woman on the other side of him. The guy's a disgusting human being, as you say in Men's Health Magazine this week, Rory. He's evil.

• 16:50Rory Stewart?

  In a sense, it's sort of almost fitting. There's a sort of a kind of tragic- Comic fittingness, that it should be Pincher the Pincher that brings him down. That, that it, because you remember there's that great phrase in Marx where he says, um, history repeats itself, you know, second time is fast, that there's something about Boris Johnson, he's so profoundly both disgusting and non-serious, that in a way it's sort of fitting that in the end he, he disintegrates in a shambolic, kind of shameful, humiliating, minor thing.

• 17:20Alastair Campbell?

  Roy, that's, that's wonderful analysis, but what damage has been done to the country meanwhile? It's enormous and I think some of it's irreparable. I really do. And who the hell is he going to make Chancellor? I mean, I, I suspect Nadine Dorries is going to be appointed Chancellor and Health Secretary is, you know, because she, and, and in the end, there'll just be the two of them sitting at the Cabinet table with Dominic Raab maybe just coming in for a, you know, to pour the tea.

• 17:43Rory Stewart?

  Okay, let's take a quick break. When we return, we'll discuss the outcome for Boris Johnson. Can he survive?

• 17:49Alastair Campbell?

  Let's hope not.

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• 19:39Alastair Campbell?

  So, welcome back, part two of this special episode of The Rest Is Politics with me, Alastair Campbell.

• 19:45Rory Stewart?

  And with me, Rory Stewart. And listen, I just, a small thing that listeners won't necessarily understand, which is that Alistair does this stuff, does these takes, because he is the more experienced broadcaster. Do you hear him? He's got this very rich voice. He's going to be doing the Today Programme soon.

• 20:01Alastair Campbell?

  No, and I mean, I do hope when, when the rest of the week's episodes are put out, I do hope that they don't edit out the question from Gemma Telford about my voice. I like that question, Rory.

• 20:12Rory Stewart?

  Listen, this is an important episode, but I also want to encourage people to listen to the rest, because we also get Alistair doing Elvis Presley. I thought very well, actually.

• 20:21Alastair Campbell?

  Thank you, thank you.

• 20:22Rory Stewart?

  That was good, that was good.

• 20:22Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I love Elvis. What about, so, I mean, do you see any circumstances now, you've been, you said, we had a bet. Do you remember Rory, we had a bet quite recently. You said Boris Johnson will lead the Tories into the next election. When are you going to pay me?

• 20:38Rory Stewart?

  Well, I think I'm going to pay you very soon, and not just you. But this is something in my defence that I always do, because I, I love betting against what I want, because I'm very happy to pay you as much money as you like.

• 20:52Alastair Campbell?

  I'll take three million plus, I'll take three million plus the house in Scotland.

• 20:55Rory Stewart?

  To have the, to have the delight of Boris Johnson going. I, I, it makes me so happy. And, and the other way, you see, is if I'm in the really unlucky position, he survives the next election, then I get something from you. So the whole thing is, it's a kind of win-win, isn't it? I, do you think he, do you think he's going to be able to make it to the end of the month, end of the week?

• 21:14Alastair Campbell?

  I think it's very, very hard to work out. It's very, very hard to work out. I've just been looking through the odds. For some reason, Penny Mordaunt seems to be the favourite, but I don't know, I don't buy that. Liz Truss, Jeremy Hunt, Rishi Sunak, Ben Wallace, I don't think any of that's right. I think if they had any sense at all, I know Sunak and Javid have put themselves into an interesting position, but I really do think they'd be wise to go to the back benches. I think there are some very strong people on their back benches and they'd be wise to go there because this cabinet is now completely tainted, totally tainted.

• 21:42Rory Stewart?

  Definitely. If you were Tom Tugendhat or Jeremy Hunt running, that would be your run, wouldn't it? You would say, I didn't touch this guy's cabinet. I had nothing to do with it and I warned you guys. The problem is, of course, that tonally, that's pretty difficult because if everybody else is implicated, they don't want you coming, they're not going to vote for somebody who comes across. Remember, just remind listeners that the first round of the voting is just the MPs, the other Conservative MPs have to put you in the final two. And if they've all been compromised and they're all feeling a bit shitty about it, they're not going to want somebody who comes across as holier than thou. So if Tom Tugendhat and Jeremy Hunt are running, they have to be pretty careful not to give the impression that they think everybody who

• 22:25Rory Stewart?

  served in Boris Johnson's government is a moral minion.

• 22:29Alastair Campbell?

  But also, the other thing that I think's worth pointing out in this is that the politics of the parliamentary Conservative Party are still very dominated by the right wing, the ERG, the kind of crazy right wing stuff, which I think Sunak is trying to appeal to in his letter. So I think that will be harder for something like Tugendhat or Jeremy Hunt. You've got to win over those mad ERG guys.

• 22:49Rory Stewart?

  So the odds are also really interesting. So the odds checker has got Penny Mordaunt at 11 to 2, Liz Truss at 36 to 5, these are stupid ways of doing it, Jeremy Hunt 38 to 5, Rishi Sunak 8 to 1, Ben Wallace 8 to 1, Nardim Zahabi 10 to 1, Tom Tugendhat 10 to 1, and Sajid Javid 20 to 1. Now, what's interesting about that is that all those odds are quite long. When I was running to be the leader against Boris Johnson, as we were getting to the end, I was 5 to 1 and Boris was flipped the other way around. So you'd bet £5 to get £2, I think is where he was. So it shows that the race is very different from that 2019 race.

• 23:30Alastair Campbell?

  Those odds though, Rory, I'm surprised you read those odds and name checked odds checker because what the bookies do in these situations is they try to get media attention. And then people put bets on. So petty petty. But that either means that somebody has suddenly put on a very, very, very large bet on Penny Mordaunt. That is possible.

• 23:49Rory Stewart?

  Which could be her mum.

• 23:50Alastair Campbell?

  It could be her. It could be her best friend. It could be one of her Russian donors who know. I don't know. She has Russian donors, but most Conservatives do. So I think that, but you know, look, my son, as you know, works in gambling and there's, there's a lot of odds movement goes on and the shifting of money. So, yeah, I think it's interesting. I do think Penny Mordaunt is quite interesting. She's always stood out from Johnson. She's not sort of, and I think it would be smart for him to go for a woman. I think if they pick, if they pick Liz Truss as their leader, I think Keir Starmer can pretty much go to the beach. Um. Now, there are some people who think that Keir Starmer goes to the beach too much, uh, but, and in a metaphorical sort of way. But I do think Liz Truss would be absolutely, totally destroyable in, by Labour in a way that Johnson ultimately is being destroyed by reality and by himself.

• 24:35Alastair Campbell?

  And by the Conservatives.

• 24:36Rory Stewart?

  Do you think Rishi Sunak could win? I mean, you, I know you came across, he thought he came across as quite thin skinned was one of your phrases, wasn't it?

• 24:44Alastair Campbell?

  I think he's, I think he, he's obviously been damaged very, very badly by this whole episode. I think the wealth.

• 24:52Rory Stewart?

  Just, just remind listeners on that episode, because it's.

• 24:54Alastair Campbell?

  Well, basically, stuff started to come out that he's, you know, that there was a lack of clarity about his, particularly his wife's tax affairs. And also the fact that he was a minister in her Majesty's government whilst having a green card, which is essentially one step away from American citizenship. And I think that was probably briefed against him. I mean, he's come through that reasonably well.

• 25:12Rory Stewart?

  And, and, and you know, I tried to defend him at the time. I'd like to defend him even more. Do you know, actually, a remarkable number of MPs have dual citizenship. Um. Actually, the people, there were, there are MPs who are American citizens. There are many MPs who are Pakistani citizens. There are many, many MPs with Irish passports. So I was a bit surprised. I was a bit surprised that the, the green card was held against him so hard.

• 25:35Alastair Campbell?

  I think, well, I think, I think, to be honest, I think it's the, it's the, it's the, it's the sheer wealth that maybe is held against him. But I don't think that on its own is enough to bring him down. The, the point I made about thin skin was something that I kept hearing from people at the Treasury. They said he's just not very good at the sort of, you know, a bit like Rory Stewart, he sometimes needs to toughen up a bit. But he's clearly toughened up sufficient to sort of, you know, pull the carpet from under Johnson tonight. Which is a big. Thing to do.

• 25:58Rory Stewart?

  Really, really big move. And.

• 26:00Alastair Campbell?

  And Rory, just, you're just getting back to what you were saying earlier about the domino effect or not. I remember, do you remember when James Pennell? Resigned from Gordon Brown's cabinet.

• 26:09Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, I do.

• 26:09Alastair Campbell?

  And Gordon immediately ran a pretty effective, pretty military operation. Peter Mandelson was involved as well to get everybody to come out straight away and say, we're not following. And it sort of didn't go anywhere. It did undermine authority, but Gordon did still sort of survive to the next election. But I think there's something different about a chancellor and a former chancellor acting in unison like this. And who is he? Who do you think he will make as chancellor? Who will he put there?

• 26:37Rory Stewart?

  So he could put in, I put a, you always look at his chief secretary treasury. So Simon Clarke might get promoted. I think.

• 26:48Alastair Campbell?

  Barclay.

• 26:49Rory Stewart?

  He could look, yeah, he could look at Barclay. He could look at Liz Truss. She's always wanted to be chancellor. The person who really wants the job and hasn't resigned yet, but he'll never make chancellor is Michael Gove. Because I think he just doesn't trust Michael Gove.

• 27:03Alastair Campbell?

  What about Zaha Uwe? What about Zaha Uwe?

• 27:06Rory Stewart?

  Well, Nadim, Nadim is, I think he's a, he's somebody I like. I mean, he's very, I, you know, I'm always been impressed with him. I travelled with him a bit during the breakout when ISIS took Mosul. David Cameron sent Nadim and myself off to talk to people in Iraq. And he was a really great travelling person. He's funny, he's modest. I've heard good things about him actually from his civil servants in education.

• 27:33Alastair Campbell?

  I wish he, I wish he'd get a decent education policy though. I don't know what the government's education policy is.

• 27:39Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, well, I mean, we know what your education policy would be, wouldn't it?

• 27:42Alastair Campbell?

  Yes. And that's why I'm back in Javid, state school boy. Well, Liz Truss is a state school person as well. So is Oliver Dowden.

• 27:50Rory Stewart?

  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, and, and, you know, Nadine Doris very much so. I mean, I think it's, yeah, it's, um, listen, here's another interesting one. I got Simon Hall, who's. A, you know, he's on the left of the, left of the party, but rather a good tweet came out from him. He's, he's sometimes pulls his punches a bit. But Katie Bull said, Prime Minister touring the tea room, talking of an interview this morning, number 10 trying to calm the ship after mood has continued to worsen. And Simon Hall tweeted out, been there, done that, purchased the T-shirt. I'm sorry, I will listen, I will learn, then joke behind closed doors, I don't see any problem, et cetera. It won't wash anymore.

• 28:33Rory Stewart?

  That tactical ship has sailed and sunk.

• 28:36Alastair Campbell?

  Good old Simon. Is he still the chairman of the Northern Ireland Select?

• 28:39Rory Stewart?

  He is, he is, he is.

• 28:40Alastair Campbell?

  Well, I bet, I suspect he spends all his time talking to politicians in Northern Ireland and in the Republic of Ireland, and he knows the damage this guy is doing in Northern Ireland, and he's probably had enough of it.

• 28:48Rory Stewart?

  Julian Knight, good one. When you have an individual of the caliber of my friends, Sajid Javid and Rishi Sunak saying enough is enough, then I'm afraid the die is cast. It's time for the party to take a new direction. So some of this will be organised, remember. I mean, I, I can't emphasise enough how, having touched the edge of these leadership campaigns, these guys, by which I means Rishi Sunak, Sajid Javid, would have had their donors lined up for months. They would have been quietly building their teams for months.

• 29:16Alastair Campbell?

  Do you not think Javid's going to run possibly as a running mate with Sunak?

• 29:21Rory Stewart?

  I think he, I think big temptation to run as a running mate, but also a temptation to see if he won't go for it themselves. And often they won't decide till the last moment. But on this, a lot of the MPs tweeting out for them would have been prepped in advance. So it's, it's quite possible, for example, that some of these guys were set up to go out to us. The other thing is, I don't know whether you noticed, Boris was about to make a press statement at six, and these things broke.

• 29:46Alastair Campbell?

  No, he said it, he did it. His, his, his press statement was to say that he made a mistake in appointing Pintcher. But I think that, that, and I think that's what triggered it. The big thing went around, he's making a statement. I guess Sunak and Javid will probably say, what, is he going to resign? No, no, he's going to say it was a mistake. Well, we'll do that anyway. Bang out the letters. No, that was, that was, that was part of the kind of, and this is the other thing about Downing Street. I mean, they're so incompetent. They can't do, they can't do anything. What do they ever do that works?

• 30:14Rory Stewart?

  One of, one of the problems, it says he continuing to sort of kick these people is, remember in an earlier thing, we talked about the appointment of Steve Barclay, and I said, it's ridiculous. The Chief of Staff in Downing Street is a full-time job.

• 30:28Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 30:28Rory Stewart?

  And Steve Barclay is doing it while being a constituency MP and actually a constituency that's quite, Cambridge's quite a long way from London. And also, he's doing it while being a minister. It just doesn't work. I mean, that is a 24/7 job.

• 30:41Alastair Campbell?

  How many scandals ago was it that Johnson's response was that he's going to put in a new team to professionalise the operation? They, he can't do it. He's morally incapable, he's practically incapable.

• 30:51Rory Stewart?

  Well, that, that'll be the problem for Steve Barclay, to be fair. I mean, Steve is a competent guy. He, he was in the private sector, runs things well, was briefly in the army. He's a competent guy, but you cannot manage Boris Johnson, even if Steve Barclay was doing it full-time, which he's not. You can't manage him because as, as, I mean, as Simon McDonald found in the Foreign Office, we would, I think it's one of the things that triggered this, actually, is Simon McDonald, who both you and I know well, sending in a very, very extraordinary clear letter, pointing out the lies that were told about Chris Pinter. But, but watching all these people try to manage Boris Johnson, I mean, the only person who kind of did it was a man called Sir Simon Milton, who was his Chief of Staff in London. And it may be something to do with the London Merrill job, which Boris Johnson played as

• 31:36Rory Stewart?

  a kind of ceremonial mascot. You know, largely it was about being frozen on a zip line, waving a couple of miniature flags and getting stuck.

• 31:45Rory Stewart?

  And he let Eddie Lister and, and Simon Milton get on with doing the property deals and all that kind of stuff. But running the country just doesn't work like that.

• 31:53Alastair Campbell?

  No. And also, the other thing that I, you know, when you talk to people who were in the assembly at the time that Johnson was mayor, they didn't, they did spot that he had this inability to, to check out facts, do detail and tell the truth. And again, it's a different level to be Prime Minister, to being London Mayor or even Chancellor of the Exchequer. You're exposed in a different way. And even with the slavish backing of Lord Dacre and Lord Murdoch and Lord, all the others, and all the sort of, you know, media barons that still, you know, being interested in what they do tomorrow, I think they've been sort of blowing with the wind as well. But I think that, you know, this is the thing that people have to take out of this. You should not put into really serious positions in government, people who are fundamentally not serious. He is not a serious person.

• 32:37Rory Stewart?

  And I think it's really shameful that it happened at all. I mean, I think this is where, I guess I'm still a little unforgiving towards people like Rishi Sunak and Oliver Dowden, who backed him really hard and in a really important way when he's running for leadership. And I remember those conversations, saying to colleagues, in fact, actually, towards the end, I was saying, why don't you vote for Sajid Javid, why don't you vote for Jeremy Hunt? And people saying, well, Boris is going to win. And I'd say, but he's completely incapable of doing this. And I remember saying this to Grant Shapps, who was one of his big backers. I said, look, I've worked with him in the Foreign Office. I've seen absolutely up close

• 33:18Rory Stewart?

  and personal, month after month, that he cannot be trusted to do the simplest thing, that he will completely screw up our policy with Kenya in a single phone call. He will take no interest at all. He'll launch a Libya policy without noticing we don't have an embassy active in Libya. We can't have him as Prime Minister. But the answer was always, yeah, but he can win. And

• 33:42Alastair Campbell?

  Well, he can't win now. He can't win now. He can't win. Now, Rory, we're going to have to, I don't know if our listeners know, but Gary Lineker's day job, he basically edits, you know, he decides what the graphics are and, you know, he just loves this podcast so much. And he's now going to have to spend all night, cutting out those bits of the podcast we've already recorded, that are now being superseded by what we've said just now. But there's one, and then on, later in the week, we will do the question and answer session as well. But I want to trail that with one of the questions, which I just spotted, from the Princess of Yorkshire. And she obviously was a head of Sunak and Javid. She said, do you think that we will need a truth and reconciliation process once Johnson is gone?

• 34:26Rory Stewart?

  It's a pretty good question, isn't it?

• 34:27Alastair Campbell?

  Very good question.

• 34:28Rory Stewart?

  We're pretty close to that, aren't we? And as you say, the damage is semi-permanent. I mean, it's so, so sad. So sad to see someone so incapable of government.

• 34:39Alastair Campbell?

  Well, for me, for me, the biggest symbol of that remains Brexit. I mean, the fact is that Brexit would not have happened without Boris Johnson, Brexit would not have happened without Dominic Cummings. The people who delivered Brexit are proven liars, proven cheats. In Johnson's case, he talks about having a third term in office. Frankly, I will not rest until he's serving his first term in prison for misconduct in public office. As you know, Rory, I don't believe we should be filling the prisons with petty crimes, but he is not a petty criminal, he's a major crook.

• 35:08Rory Stewart?

  So I would like to reach out to those listeners who voted for Brexit, if there are any left after your comments, and say, look, this, this is, the tragedy of this is this goes so much deeper than that single issue. I mean, he has just corroded our constitution.

• 35:27Alastair Campbell?

  Rule of law, judiciary, media.

• 35:29Rory Stewart?

  It's so sad. I mean, he's, everything that will follow on from this. And maybe we'll learn an important lesson, maybe we'll end up with proportional representation, we'll end up with the constitution.

• 35:38Alastair Campbell?

  Yeah.

• 35:39Rory Stewart?

  We'll sort these things out, maybe we'll separate our executive from our legislature, maybe the parties will collapse. But goodness gracious me, it feels like the end of the Roman Empire. I mean, he feels like one of those very strange, I mean, that's one of the odd things about him. He's a guy who is completely also oddly, he's, he was obviously a clever young child, right? He was able at doing exams when he was 12, 13, but somewhere along the time, and I don't know when he was, when he was 14 or 15 or something, he just stopped thinking. You can't actually have a serious conversation with him about anything. He gets bored within about 10 seconds.

• 36:14Alastair Campbell?

  Fair enough. I was with somebody today on this TV programme I told you about, Make Me Prime Minister, and they said, I don't think he's very clever, you know. I think he's, he's had a very expensive education, but I don't think he's very clever. I thought it was quite an insightful comment. Thank you for joining us for our Rest Is Politics special. There will be a regular episode on Thursday in which we discuss Labour and Brexit, China, Taiwan, the economy, and the new Elvis Presley film. But tonight, Britain's tumultuous politics has offered yet another dramatic development. Boris Johnson is on the brink, and hopefully, before too long, we'll be saying goodbye to him, just as we're saying goodbye now to you.

• 36:54Rory Stewart?

  Goodbye from me too.

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