Pod Insights The Rest Is Politics 175. Question Time: The Power of Rupert Murdoch About this episode What is Rupert Murdoch's legacy in the world of media and politics? What did Rory discuss with First Minister of Scotland, Humza Yousaf? Why have there been protests within the Metropolitan Police force?
Join Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell as they answer all these questions and more on today's episode of TRIP Question Time.
🌏 Get our exclusive NordVPN deal here ➼ https://nordvpn.com/restispolitics
It’s risk-free with Nord’s 30-day money-back guarantee! ✅
TRIP Plus:
Become a member of The Rest Is Politics Plus to support the podcast, receive our exclusive newsletter, enjoy ad-free listening to both TRIP and Leading, benefit from discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, join our Discord chatroom, and receive early access to live show tickets and Question Time episodes. Just head to therestispolitics.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestispolitics.
Instagram:
@restispolitics
Twitter:
@RestIsPolitics
Email:
[email protected]
Producers: Dom Johnson + Nicole Maslen
Exec Producers: Tony Pastor + Jack Davenport
Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices
Transcript 6,246 words · 12 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:04 Rory Stewart? This episode is brought to you by NordVPN.
0:06 Alastair Campbell? And I must thank NordVPN because on my Grand European Tour with Fiona, I was away from the Hawthorns for West Bromwich against Burnley, but I managed to watch it. There you go.
0:19 Rory Stewart? I actually had a NordVPN thank you. I was in the new Starbucks here in Crete. And of course, the thing flashed up, saying this is an unsecured public network. And I was able to go to my VPN. It was a little reminder of something we often forget when we're in all those cafes and things, which is actually genuinely, people can do all kinds of weird cyber attacks and spying if you don't have a virtual private network when you're sitting in that Starbucks.
0:42 Alastair Campbell? Well, I think, are you not really sort of proud of me that I managed to do this? Or should I say Fiona managed to do this?
0:49 Rory Stewart? I'm incredibly proud of you. That's a tech transformation. So to get the best discount off your NordVPN plan, go to nordvpn.com/risterspolitics. That's nordvpn.com/risterspolitics. And the link is in the episode description.
1:05 Speaker 02 Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.
1:10 Speaker 03 Botox, onabotulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.
1:23 Speaker 04 Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
1:59 Speaker 02 Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.
2:06 Speaker 05 This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks. Made with whole fruit and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks. Now made with no artificial dyes.
2:41 Rory Stewart? Welcome to the Rest is Politics Question Time with me Rory Stewart.
2:45 Alastair Campbell? And me Alastair Campbell.
2:47 Rory Stewart? And first question I think to get us off on is Rupert Murdoch, who claims to have stepped aside. Now, of course Murdoch's something we think about a lot. You interviewed Brian Cox, the great star of Succession, which I think is a pretty fascinating insight. I mean, even if it's slightly off beam. Did you feel Succession was a relatively realistic portrayal of the way that Murdoch his family, that empire operated?
3:10 Alastair Campbell? Well, Brian Cox, the actor, doesn't want anybody to think that it's based on Murdoch.
3:15 Rory Stewart? Right.
3:16 Alastair Campbell? And I get that because they want to think they're creating something completely new. But if you know and you've seen the Murdochs operating, there's a lot in there. There's a lot in there. And actually, what's really interesting now, just to throw in one question here from Dave H. What would it take to dislodge the disproportionate influence of the Murdoch press on political reporting? We can come on to that. I had lots of sort of interactions with Murdoch and the Murdoch family.
3:36 Rory Stewart? And famously, sorry to be cheeky, famously, one of the big moments was the decision of Tony Blair and you, I think, to fly out to meet Rupert Murdoch before the 97 election. And that was important because the right wing media, particularly the Murdoch controlled media, had been very important in the defeat of Neil Kinnock the time around. So getting the Murdoch media at least friendly and on side was considered to be quite a coup before the 97 election.
4:03 Alastair Campbell? Yeah, I mean, I've always thought that Murdoch backed us in 1997 because he knew that we were going to win. I don't think we won because Murdoch backed us. And I think you can overdo, I wouldn't understate the influence of media in this, but I think you can overdo it. I think we were going to win, they worked that out. And it was a political risk because lots of people in the Labour Party were very, very angry.
4:22 Rory Stewart? And tell us a bit about where is it that you went to meet them?
4:24 Alastair Campbell? The Hayman Island.
4:26 Rory Stewart? Wow.
4:26 Alastair Campbell? Yeah, a long way.
4:28 Rory Stewart? So that was like on a boat or on an island?
4:30 Alastair Campbell? We flew, we flew to Sydney. Paul Keating, one of my favourite politicians, put us up at Kiri Billy House, which is the Prime Minister's residence in Sydney. He was, he had some great insights into Murdoch. I remember he said, what did he said? So you've got to remember about Rupert. His priorities are as follows. Number one Rupert. Number two Rupert's business interests. Number three Rupert's political power. Number four, the family. Number five, everything else. That was kind of his view.
5:02 Rory Stewart? And 25 years ago, did Murdoch already seem like quite an old man when you met him?
5:05 Alastair Campbell? No, he didn't seem old. He seemed pretty grizzled. It was very interesting to watch him at that event. So this was a thing where all the News Corp editors were gathered together in the same place.
5:17 Rory Stewart? And you were being, you were being given a chance to talk to all the editors.
5:20 Alastair Campbell? And Tony did a sort of speech. And but what was, so I think I may have told you this story before. So we're having this, we flew to Sydney. Keating put on an Australian Air Force jet. We flew up with him. He came with us. We arrived at this.
5:35 Rory Stewart? Can I just sort of stop on that? I mean.
5:37 Alastair Campbell? The listeners aren't getting many questions here, are they?
5:40 Rory Stewart? But it's a fascinating story and this is really big news Murdoch stepping aside. I mean, this man is a, has dominated not just the European and Australian, but the American media landscapes through Fox News. I mean, he's, you know, a lot of the reason Trump came in. But I'm also sort of wondering, I mean, in Britain, it would look a bit odd for a prime minister using a national Air Force jet to fly out to a meeting with a newspaper editor. I mean, that really gives you a sense of the power of this man.
6:04 Alastair Campbell? No, I think from Keating's perspective, he was the Prime Minister of Australia, building relations with Tony Blair, who was widely expected to be the Prime Minister of the UK. And he was though, he gave us a lift and he stayed for the whole trip that we were there. We spent lots of time with him.
6:20 Rory Stewart? So it does illustrate the power of Murdoch, that he's able, he was able to get.
6:23 Alastair Campbell? And also the fact that we decided, despite the political risk and despite lots of people. I mean, there's a piece, there's one of the most dramatic passages in my, in my diaries. I mean, you know, I love Neil Kinnock to bits, but he did threaten me with a, with a a boiling kettle. And he came to sort of said, Neil, what's wrong, what's wrong? And he just, fucking Murdoch, going to see Murdoch. You know, it was a very, very unpopular thing for a lot of people.
6:47 Rory Stewart? I, I had a tiny example of something on a much more mini scale, which was before I became politician. So we're back in kind of two thousand eight. And when I was teaching at Harvard and doing stuff about Afghanistan, I was invited to a dinner and I sat next to Rupert Murdoch. I mean, when he wants to be, he can be unbelievably charming. The first thing that struck me is very unusually for a very powerful, wealthy man, he listened. I mean, generally powerful, wealthy men are just on transmit all the time.
7:15 Alastair Campbell? And he speaks very quietly, doesn't he?
7:16 Rory Stewart? He speaks very quietly, listened very thoughtfully. He gave me some very good advice. I was trying to hire somebody for a, a charity. He said, Roy, my advice to you is all that matters is that they should be loyal and hard working. Nothing else matters at all, which actually really clarified things for me. But most striking, well, at the end of the evening, he said, you've been very interesting on Afghanistan and I'd like to come pick you up tomorrow morning in my car, take you down to the Wall Street Journal. I'd like you to speak to all my editors. So sure enough, next morning, car turns up with Murdoch in it. I get in the car, we drive down to the Wall Street Journal, all the editors are assembled, he sticks me in the seat. And it was, I thought interesting because I, I don't know what the political game was. I wasn't a member of parliament. I was just somebody critical of the Afghan war.
8:00 Rory Stewart? I think there was a sense that along with all the other things, he has an instinct for news and he sensed that my criticism of the Afghan war was something his editors needed to hear and he was going to take time out of his diary to move me in the car and bring me. I, I, I don't know. I mean, that's the only encounter I've ever had with him. Then when I became politician, I really kept distance from him. I didn't want to go to his parties. I didn't want to get too close. I had a huge row with James Murdoch, his son, about Afghanistan because it then turned out that his son was very, very pro Afghan war and the father was obviously more skeptical. So I ended up with Rebecca Brooks and James Murdoch in this big argument. And that was really the last time I really encountered them.
8:35 Alastair Campbell? So he's, he's announced that Lachlan, one of, one of his two sons, he's got two sons, two daughters who are going to fight over the spoils, as it were. That's the succession bit, which I think is still to play out. Because there's one, Elizabeth's very well known, she was married to Matthew Freud for a while, she's now married to a very famous artist. And they've all done lots of different things, but Lachlan looks like Rupert is trying to put him in the main pole position. But I can remember once when they came to number 10, and it's true, I mean, you know, when Rupert Murdoch came into town, he would pop in to see Tony, he would usually come through the back door. I think partly his request, partly ours. And I remember once we were having a drink up in Tony's flat above number 11, and we started, we're talking about the Middle East.
9:20 Alastair Campbell? And James, who was, as you say, quite strong views on foreign policy, I would say coming at things from a very anti-Israel position. Murdoch very much pro-Israel. Tony sort of sitting there watching this and watching, and eventually James slightly started to lose his temper about the situation, fucking Israelis and the, you know, and I remember Rupert Murdoch at one point saying, James, you don't talk like that in the Prime Minister's house. Bit of a slapdown. I remember saying to Tony afterwards, that was really interesting, but it was quite, I thought it was interesting that he let them go a bit. Anybody who knows Murdoch, it was interesting what people like Andrew Neil and others were saying was that, you know, the idea that he's going to step back, forget it. But he is 92.
10:05 Alastair Campbell? I'll tell you the other thing that I remember.
10:07 Rory Stewart? 92, I mean, that's the Syriza age.
10:09 Alastair Campbell? Yeah. That's, that's 12 years older than Joe Biden. So I think that, the other thing I remember from that Heyman Island though, was that, you know, we did see it as quite an opportunity because it wasn't just that, you know, you talk about when he got the editors together. If you think that, for example, I don't think any of his newspapers around the world, none of them, I don't think any of them quotes were against the Iraq war. Now, that means that basically there is a corporate line here. So that's why perhaps we felt important to sort of keep him on board. Tony got very irritated with him towards the end because he thought that that editorial support gave him kind of the ability to sort of phone when he wanted, say what he wanted, and it doesn't, the truth is it doesn't.
10:54 Alastair Campbell? But I remember in that Heyman Island thing, it was a very, very interesting insight, when we hadn't even finished the speech by the time we got there, we're still working on it. And I sat down at this, there was this barbecue down by the pool at this fancy hotel in the Heyman Island, they'd taken over the whole resort. And Murdoch came and sat down next to me and Tony was chatting away to some of the other people who were there. And I said to Murdoch, we've put more work into this speech than any other speech for the, apart from the party conference. I mean, pretty much moderate bullshit, I would call it. We had put a lot of work into it, but it was like, it was just small talk. Next thing I know, editor of the Times and the editor of the Sun come and join us. And Rupert says, or mumbles, he says, very important speech Tiny Blairs making tomorrow? Oh, yeah.
11:39 Alastair Campbell? They sort of sit up and then they disappear. And then they come back 20 minutes later and tell us that it's going to be front page lead, they're going to run extract.
11:50 Rory Stewart? Gosh, so that little sentence.
11:51 Alastair Campbell? That was it. That was it.
11:53 Rory Stewart? So it's an extraordinary example of the power, isn't it? The thing, yeah. Well, we should, we should get into this because this is a huge issue in our democracies, the power of these companies.
12:00 Alastair Campbell? I think it is waning. I do think it's waning. I think that.
12:03 Rory Stewart? But you're sometimes a bit paradoxical about it, aren't you? Sometimes you're like, it's waning.
12:06 Alastair Campbell? Yeah.
12:07 Rory Stewart? Social media's on the rise and actually it wasn't that important, the Labour victory. But other times when you're irritated, you're like, the fucking right wing media are dominating everything.
12:14 Alastair Campbell? No, I think that, I think where I get irritated is that they can still dominate the agenda. We had, do you know this, the issue we got most questions about this week? By a mile was why was there no coverage on the television of the, the rejoin European Union march?
12:28 Rory Stewart? Well, let's, let's take, let's take question that. Lina Puli, why was there almost no coverage of the rejoin EU march on Saturday? I saw nothing on BBC or Channel 4 News, very little in the Sunday papers. However, I watched very good coverage by a French TV station, which asked, why are there no British cameras here? So tell us about much. Fiona went on the march?
12:44 Alastair Campbell? She did. I was at the football. And I, look, I think even when we were doing the People's Vote campaign and we're getting marches of a million people, it was a struggle sometimes to get them there. But I think with this one, I think that that is where I would say the right wing media influence is. If the papers aren't covering it, the broadcasters decide it's not important.
13:02 Rory Stewart? Right.
13:03 Alastair Campbell? I think that's the problem.
13:04 Rory Stewart? And why is The Guardian and The Independent not covering it?
13:05 Alastair Campbell? They might have covered it a bit, I don't know. Um, look, let's be honest, the issue is not what it was because if you've got neither Labour nor the Lib Dems nor, you know, I think the other thing, to be honest, that, that the people who were speaking at it were the same sort of people who were speaking before. I think there was a very interesting piece that somebody sent me actually from The Spectator, where they said that, you know, If there had been people there who said, I voted Brexit and I wish I hadn't. If there'd been people there who said, this is what I'd used to think and now this is what I think. But it was sort of the same voices. But it was a fascinating thing. I was on the way up to the football and Fiona was texting me updates. So she's there at this sort of, you know, you're pro-European, rejoin the European, Giefah Hofstadt is a very good speaker,
13:48 Alastair Campbell? et cetera. Next thing she says, oh my God, there's a ban the ban on the bully dogs marched lively at the same time. And then there was something about a protest going on in relation to Pakistan. And she said the ban the ban people, the bully dogs people, there weren't that many of them.
14:05 Rory Stewart? Pro bully dogs people.
14:06 Alastair Campbell? Pro bully dogs. But then she said they were walking down the street surrounded by media.
14:10 Rory Stewart? Yeah.
14:11 Alastair Campbell? Because the media decided this was more topical.
14:12 Rory Stewart? More exciting story. Yeah.
14:13 Alastair Campbell? More interesting.
14:14 Rory Stewart? Now, having a mayor, Lisa, after listening to a tale of two Andes, I wonder, were we wrong in Bristol to vote against having a mayor? I was very.
14:22 Alastair Campbell? Absolutely.
14:23 Rory Stewart? Absolutely. Very, very sad. And I actually was really impressed by the mayor of Bristol. And I'm actually keen to have him on the show. And I think we should have more local government, not less. I mean, I think the anti campaigners are so good about saying, oh, we don't, their line is always, we don't need more politicians.
14:37 Alastair Campbell? More politicians.
14:38 Rory Stewart? But what we actually need is better quality local government with more resources, closer to people, and it will be a huge improvement in our democracy.
14:46 Alastair Campbell? We got a lot of feedback on the two Andes, Andy Burnham, Mayor of Manchester, Andy Street, Mayor of South Widdowlands. And it was very, very positive. And I think a lot of what they liked about it was the fact that both of them were actually saying, they weren't party voices, were they? They're Andy's Labour, Andy Burnham Labour, Andy Street at Troy. But they weren't saying, we're here to sort of parrot the party line. They were absolutely about their place. And I thought Marvin, the Bristol mayor, I thought he was terrific. And it was tragic for me. And that's just part of this sort of, you know, what you say in your book, we haven't bought enough into the idea of devolution. And so, no, I completely agree with Lisa. I think we've got to have more mayors, not fewer.
15:27 Rory Stewart? Very good.
15:27 Alastair Campbell? Now, here's a bit of a tough one for you, Rory.
15:29 Rory Stewart? Yes, sir.
15:29 Alastair Campbell? Okay, well, it's a tough one for both of us, actually. Marian Fallon, you never discuss what is happening to disabled, sick people. There are millions of others. I've asked this question many times. I've given up now. And when you know how Rory Stewart voted on policies that harm us, there's the reason. So we're back to your voting record. We don't need to go into that. But I think they have got a point. We don't really talk about this very much. And there are millions of disabled people. I'm going to give a shout out to a school I went to last week down in Exmouth in Devon, the Deaf Academy. Apparently, there are 22 schools for the deaf in the UK. What was interesting, really interesting about this one, the, well, they're not all children. They're from children up to 25, then young adults.
16:10 Alastair Campbell? And they're deaf, but also have often special educational needs, physical, mental health. It was a very, very, very inspiring place. I met with the student council. It's all, some profoundly deaf, some with literally no hearing at all, others who've had implants that they can hear a bit, and some with hearing dogs. And it was a wonderful place. Anyway, their current campaigns, they won the campaign to get a 20 mile on our speed limit outside. They've won the campaign for a zebra crossing. Their next two campaigns, and the first, I think we should back them on this. Their first campaign is they want to have BSL sign language on all government press conferences.
16:52 Rory Stewart? Right.
16:52 Alastair Campbell? Now, they have it in Scotland and Wales.
16:53 Rory Stewart? Yeah, yeah.
16:54 Alastair Campbell? But when Number 10 do a press conference.
16:56 Rory Stewart? They don't have it.
16:57 Alastair Campbell? They don't have it.
16:57 Rory Stewart? And the next request.
16:58 Alastair Campbell? And the next request, which is, relates to the question in a way. They want to have the symbol for disability changed.
17:05 Rory Stewart? Okay.
17:06 Alastair Campbell? At the moment, the symbol for disability is a wheelchair.
17:09 Rory Stewart? Yep.
17:10 Alastair Campbell? And so what they say that does is it excludes people with
17:13 Rory Stewart? Yep.
17:14 Alastair Campbell? invisible disability. So I think that's something that, if we do do a manifesto, Rory, there's two things that we should put right in.
17:20 Rory Stewart? And let's do that manifesto. And a quick sort of shout out to the Scottish government. So my sister Fiona has Down's syndrome. And the Scottish government, whom I'm often kicking, has actually done really well by her. I mean, I think there's been fantastic support for her. In getting her into work. I mean, she had a work coach. They initially helped fund the company that employs her and Fiona gets, I think, real fulfillment out of the time that she spends in work. She goes to work every day and I think the company that employs her is very good at supporting her. But I also think, I hope they feel they get a lot out of her. So tribute to the Scottish government.
18:00 Alastair Campbell? And also, my Fiona, who has been to the apple shop quite a few times recently and on two occasions, as she's gone in and asked for to see somebody, they've said, do you mind having somebody helping you who's deaf? And she said, no, not at all. And they did it all through an iPad. And these kids down in Exmouth, they were, when they were talking about what they want to do when they leave, it was just fantastic. One wanted to be a football coach, one wanted to work with dogs, one wanted to work in a museum.
18:26 Rory Stewart? Now, Adam van der Bussch, what five rules should Starmer put in place to improve governmental transparency, integrity, and in the end regain trust in our corrupt system? I'm going to start. So rule number one, ministers should serve a minimum of two years unless there's some completely unprecedented scandal. Number two, they should have a three week training course before they take over with a proper handover. Number three, I think, of course, we should change to something more like the New Zealand proportional representation system. I would like to see half the cabinet being appointed people with real professional skills and knowledge of their areas.
19:05 Alastair Campbell? Ooh, undermined.
19:07 Rory Stewart? And then the final thing is I'd like to see much more radical devolution down to a local level. Those are my five. Over to you.
19:13 Alastair Campbell? Okay, I agree with most of those. The cabinet thing would be a massive change and maybe we need that. First of all, I would like Kier to say in the manifesto, our politics is close to being broken. To repair it, we have to have a fundamental rethink of how we do politics at every level. I would love it if he said during the campaign, I want to put my shadow cabinet on notice that if we become the cabinet, I can tell them now that if any of them ever stand at the dispatch box in the House of Commons and say something that is a lie, they will be sacked. And if they say something that is untrue or factually incorrect, and they don't correct it immediately, they will also be sacked. I think that would really, really signal to people that he's serious about this. And I think the other thing is, I mean, I do recommend, maybe we should put it, you mentioned Angela Rayner
19:58 Alastair Campbell? in the, in the main podcast, maybe we should put this in the. In the newsletter, I do think that some of the ideas that Andrew Ray is talking about in relation to rebuilding ethics. And the seven Nolan Principles. Yep. Honesty, openness, objectivity, selflessness, integrity, accountability and leadership. I think Labour should persuade Parliament to endorse those for all MPs. Very good. Okay, Roy, lots of questions to come. Let's just take a quick break.
20:25 Speaker 02 Chronic migraine is 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting four hours or more.
20:30 Speaker 03 Botox, on botulinum toxin A, prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they start. It's not for those with 14 or fewer headache days a month. It prevents on average eight to nine headache days a month versus six to seven for placebo.
20:43 Speaker 04 Prescription Botox is injected by your doctor. Effects of Botox may spread hours to weeks after injection, causing serious symptoms. Alert your doctor right away as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. Patients with these conditions before injection are at highest risk. Side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue and headache. Allergic reactions can include rash, welts, asthma symptoms and dizziness. Don't receive Botox if there's a skin infection. Tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions, including ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, myasthenia gravis or Lambert Eaton syndrome, and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects.
21:19 Speaker 02 Why wait? Ask your doctor, visit botoxchronicmigraine.com or call 1-800-44-BOTOX to learn more.
21:26 Speaker 05 This episode is brought to you by Welch's Fruit Snacks. Back to school season can be tough on parents. But choosing a snack you and your kids can both get behind doesn't have to be. Stock up on Welch's Fruit Snacks, made with whole fruit and now made with no artificial dyes. It's a snack kids already love and one you can feel good about giving them. Go back to school with Welch's Fruit Snacks, now made with no artificial dyes.
21:53 Speaker 06 Payday bars have a bone to pick with the other candy bars. Enough with the toppings and layers and stuff, kay? Payday bars are just salty, crunchy peanuts and sweet caramel. Delicious! Payday Peanut Caramel Bar.
22:13 Rory Stewart? Helen Laws, what would your advice be on strategy to have the best chance of getting a PR system of voting in to avoid the toxic polarisations ruling side? So if you were in charge of advising a campaign for changing our electoral system, partial representation, how would you actually think about achieving it? And what is it realistically? Five years, 10 years, 15 years? How would you set about doing it?
22:35 Alastair Campbell? We talked a little bit about this on the main podcast in relation to New Zealand. I do think that there's always a danger in a campaign where you feel it so strongly yourself that you can't quite understand why others don't. You have to get new voices. And so I think that, I do think the Liberal Democrats and the Greens, who are the most committed to that sort of change, that they should come together and actually start really pressing the Labor Party. Because in the end, you can't change it without a government that says it wants to change it. So they should be putting far more pressure on them. And I think doing it by saying, look, we'll help you get rid of the Tories if.
23:09 Rory Stewart? Very good. Okay, question from you.
23:11 Alastair Campbell? Well, I want to ask this. James Russell, Ree Chris Cabba, why won't former Attorney General Suella Braverman be held to account for her interventions? This is where a police officer has been charged with murder, presumably after a pretty thorough process by the Crown Prosecution Service. You and I and nobody else knows more than what we've read and what we've seen.
23:32 Rory Stewart? And this is where a lot of firearm officers have handed back their weapons in protest in solidarity with this police officer.
23:38 Alastair Campbell? And Suella Braverman put out a statement on social media essentially saying, we can't have a situation where policemen go to work without feeling that, you know, thinking they're going to end up in court, kind of thing. Which, when I was a journalist, you'd have thought, ooh, is that not contempt of court?
23:52 Rory Stewart? Interesting, isn't it? So we just talked to Theresa May about this in two episodes of Leading, which will be out on Monday. But one of the things that she was saying is that as Home Secretary, she was under huge pressure as a Conservative to always support the police. Actually, she didn't. She's often been very, very critical of the police as Home Secretary. Suella Braverman obviously made the different choice, which I guess is the kind of Republican American choice, which is...
24:15 Alastair Campbell? Police, right or wrong?
24:16 Rory Stewart? Exactly. I'm always on the side of the police, right or wrong?
24:19 Alastair Campbell? But I think there is a, you know, it was interesting, the Solicitor General... Put out a media advisory note reminding the media and users of social media, he said, of the law concerning contempt of court. And I have no idea whether that was in direct response to Swallow Braverman, but I thought it was quite a big thing to do.
24:38 Rory Stewart? Quite a big deal, yeah.
24:39 Alastair Campbell? Yeah. Another one for you, Rory. What did Rory discuss with Humza Yousaf? John in Oban wants to know.
24:45 Rory Stewart? Oh, so Humza Yousaf and I met at the UN-
24:48 Alastair Campbell? He's the First Minister of Scotland.
24:49 Rory Stewart? First Minister of Scotland at the UN General Assembly. And I met him just after I met the President of Malawi. And we were discussing Scotland's international development programme. Scotland has a small international development programme, but it's very, very interesting. Under Nicola Sturgeon and now continued under Humza Yousaf, they've been taking some very interesting leads, particularly on the issue of climate reparations and the issue of really making sure that the people who are suffering most from climate change, the extreme poor of the world, get the support that all the climate change money doesn't just go to technological change, converting people to renewable energy, but also thinks about the people in Somalia who are experiencing a seventh year of drought and are on the receiving end of this. And so, yeah, I'm very interested in the way in which a smaller
25:34 Rory Stewart? country like Scotland can define the agenda in that way.
25:39 Alastair Campbell? Rachel, this is for your friend Gillian Keegan. My daughter's secondary school has been closed for four weeks. There seems to be no plan for a return to appropriate face-to-face learning, and Department of Education embargoes on sharing information, meaning media attention has moved on. Does the government just react to what's in the public eye?
25:56 Rory Stewart? Well, and we've gone round and round on this. I mean, this is the question of the fact that these buildings are unsafe. And so Gillian Keegan made the call just before term started to close schools, to the absolute fury, obviously, understandably of parents, teachers, pupils who suddenly found, just at the beginning of term, that their school buildings were closed. I think- It was the right thing to do, but I can also see why people are very angry about it.
26:21 Alastair Campbell? She did also say in Parliament that the kids loved being in porter cabins.
26:24 Rory Stewart? I was taught in porter cabins.
26:26 Alastair Campbell? Were you at Eden?
26:26 Rory Stewart? Yeah, in the school that you keep going on about.
26:28 Alastair Campbell? You were in a porter cabin at Eden?
26:30 Rory Stewart? Yeah, my, my, all my English.
26:31 Alastair Campbell? Dreams about that.
26:32 Rory Stewart? My English classes from the porter cabin. No, it was fine.
26:34 Alastair Campbell? Right, you should have the last question today.
26:35 Rory Stewart? Okay, now, my last question, I'm afraid it's, it's less highbrow than some of the questions.
26:39 Alastair Campbell? Oh, is it trivial? Like you said, this podcast was on another, another of your flutter eyebrow.
26:44 Rory Stewart? No, no.
26:44 Alastair Campbell? Are you ever going to understand?
26:46 Rory Stewart? You shouldn't, you shouldn't listen to those things. You really want to see.
26:48 Alastair Campbell? I only listen to it because Elizabeth Day, the interviewee, sent me the clip saying, this is hilarious. So you say.
26:54 Rory Stewart? She's just trying to wind you up. She knows where your buttons are. So what Alistair's referring to, and he, I, I've really offended him. And I actually, I also really blame Elizabeth Day for sharing all these clips. Because there's obviously no way Alistair's going to slog through listening to me on somebody else's podcast.
27:10 Alastair Campbell? I won't even go on to shag marry avoid.
27:12 Rory Stewart? Yeah, but I, I, I've, I've been publicising my book, Politics on the Edge, by doing a lot of podcasts. And, and in them, basically, all I get asked about is the podcast. But you will be pleased that when I was on with Lorraine Kelly yesterday on ITV.
27:26 Alastair Campbell? I love Lorraine.
27:27 Rory Stewart? We did an enormous amount about the podcast. She's a huge fan. And that's probably much bigger listeners than any of these things you're mocking me about. Now, here we are, Richard Dean. Alistair, I'm not going to answer this for you.
27:40 Alastair Campbell? Yes.
27:40 Rory Stewart? Have you a go to song that re-energises you if you're feeling low in energy or uncertain?
27:47 Alastair Campbell? Any quite pacey Motown.
27:51 Rory Stewart? Okay, go on, give us an example.
27:53 Alastair Campbell? Anything from the Four Tops. Uh, Ain't No Mountain High Enough always does it for me.
27:58 Rory Stewart? Okay.
27:58 Alastair Campbell? Ain't No Mountain High Enough.
27:59 Rory Stewart? Is that something you do in the gym?
28:01 Alastair Campbell? Any of the vast abba stuff, a lot of Elvis.
28:03 Rory Stewart? Is this stuff you run to, box to, or just cheers you up in the morning?
28:06 Alastair Campbell? All of the above.
28:07 Rory Stewart? All of the above.
28:08 Alastair Campbell? All of the above.
28:08 Rory Stewart? And do you play the music very loud? Your neighbours hate being next to you.
28:11 Alastair Campbell? No, my neighbours love being next to me because I play the bagpipes very loudly. I also, I'll tell you the best running music of all time is the Bee Gees Live at Massachusetts.
28:21 Rory Stewart? Go on, give us a line of that.
28:22 Alastair Campbell? No, okay, no, I'm not.
28:24 Rory Stewart? Oh, I'm disappointed.
28:27 Alastair Campbell? No, but it's very hard to do the Bee Gees.
28:31 Alastair Campbell? What about you? Go to music?
28:33 Rory Stewart? Go to music, I.
28:34 Alastair Campbell? You're just not into music, are you?
28:36 Rory Stewart? No, I'm not.
28:36 Alastair Campbell? It's ridiculous.
28:37 Rory Stewart? I'm not, and it's very, it's, I think it's probably because I'm tone deaf, doesn't help much.
28:42 Alastair Campbell? Right, okay, is that true?
28:43 Rory Stewart? Yeah, I can, I can't hold a tune, yeah.
28:46 Alastair Campbell? Well, I'm not a great singer.
28:47 Rory Stewart? No, no, I, I, it's the same with the pipes, I can play from music, but I can't play from ear.
28:51 Alastair Campbell? Oh, right, okay.
28:52 Rory Stewart? Which is a big problem with bagpipes.
28:54 Alastair Campbell? It's a major, major problem, yeah.
28:56 Rory Stewart? No, I, I, I literally, I run to a recording of Handel's Messiah.
29:00 Alastair Campbell? That's a lie.
29:00 Rory Stewart? No, it's true, recorded by.
29:01 Alastair Campbell? Do you?
29:02 Rory Stewart? Yep, I do, recorded by the Sixteen in Dublin, and I can show you the recording on my.
29:06 Alastair Campbell? I don't mind that, I think that's, I think that's okay. I think, no, I think that's great, I don't mind that at all. I wouldn't do that, but.
29:15 Alastair Campbell? There again, I was educated in the port cabin.
29:18 Rory Stewart? Very good, well, thank you very much, see you soon, bye bye.
29:24 Speaker 07 Mr. President, my company told me of the explosion on our rig.
29:28 Speaker 08 On October 2nd.
29:29 Speaker 07 Causing massive water displacement and triggering a tsunami. They all heap the blame on me.
29:34 Speaker 08 Tom Cruise is. Digger got us into this mess, and Digger's gonna dig us up. From the director of Birdman and The Revenant.
29:41 Speaker 09 What would happen if I stopped drilling? You stop, you freeze to death, that's what.
29:45 Speaker 08 With great power, comes great deniability.
29:48 Speaker 09 I'm not the first then.
29:50 Speaker 08 Digger. See the trailer online. Only in theaters October 2nd. Rated R. Under 17. Not a minute without parent.
29:55 Speaker 10 Afternoon glare totally ruined my watch party for the big game. That's when my buddy recommended Blinds.com.
30:02 Speaker 11 With custom window treatments made to fit your style, space, and budget, customers who shop at Blinds.com experienced overwhelming satisfaction. Side effects may include a fuller, deeper night's sleep, and a sudden urge to host the watch party again. Blinds.com isn't a medication, but it can improve how you feel about your home. Visit Blinds.com to order your free samples today.
Previous 174. Scrapping HS2, ‘Ukraine fatigue’, and 'Vive le Roi!' Next 176. Can the Tory Party be saved? Page updated October 26, 2026 · transcript and summary are machine-generated
