RIHC: Disney's Legacy, with Bob Iger

What’s the first question people at Disney ask themselves when they have a great idea? How does Bob Iger view his legacy, and does he think Walt Disney would approve of his record? How did Bob first get into The Rest Is History? And who is his dream dinner party guest from history? Watch Tom and Dominic's tour of Disneyland with Bob: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwPaOpifZ-M In this special bonus episode, Tom and Dominic are joined by Friend of the Show Bob Iger, the CEO of The Walt Disney Company. They delve into Walt's legacy, the 70th anniversary of Disneyland, and Bob's time at the helm of the worlds of Mickey House, Snow White and Luke Skywalker… _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Social Producer: Harry Balden Video Editor: Harry Swan Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Producer: Tabby Syrett Senior Producer: Theo Young-Smith Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:02Tom Holland?

  This episode is supported by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Now, history's biggest leaps started as hard questions that people didn't want asked.

• 0:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, there's a classic example of that at the end of the 15th century. And the hard question in particular was, what is out there beyond the Atlantic Ocean to the west? And as you will know, the man who found the answer to that question was the explorer Christopher Columbus. And he realizes, or rather, everybody else realizes, that there is a vast continent out there. And it is, of course, the Americas. So Anthropic knows the importance of questions. And it's why Anthropic is founded on one hard question above all. How can we ensure that the AI revolution really goes well for ordinary people?

• 0:45Tom Holland?

  So they asked over 100,000 people. And what came back wasn't just fear, there was hope as well. People wanted to know, will cancer ever be cured? Can kids have a better future? It turns out that there is hope in hard questions. Ask yours at claude.ai/RestIsHistory and keep thinking.

• 1:08Tom Holland?

  This episode is brought to you by the Gates Foundation. We have touched on the fall of the Roman Empire a few times on this show, haven't we? But what our listeners may not know is that among the causes that historians talk about, it's not just barbarian invasions. There's also talk of a disease which people call Roman fever, which I believe we know now as malaria. For thousands of years, humanity was defenseless against it. But thankfully, we live in a time of incredible ingenuity. And American scientists and partners around the world are fighting back with support from the Gates Foundation.

• 1:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, so they're creating a new generation of bed nets that kill up to 90% of mosquitoes. And that leads to a 50% drop in malaria, saving lives and protecting vulnerable communities.

• 1:57Tom Holland?

  The Gates Foundation, partners of human potential. Search gatesfoundation.org/mosquito to learn more.

• 2:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Tom, as you know, I spend all my time working and in a dream world, I would clone a sort of Tom Holland who would do all the work for me. But sadly, technology has not advanced to that point. If it did, I wish there was a recruiting company that I could use to hire that clone for me.

• 2:29Tom Holland?

  Well, Dominic, you are in luck because if you are hiring, then ZipRecruiter is the great time saver. You can try it free at ziprecruiter.com/history. It shows you qualified candidates almost instantly. So save time with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.

• 2:58Dominic Sandbrook?

  Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com/history. That's ziprecruiter.com/history. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.

• 3:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  Hello, everybody. Welcome to this very special Rest is History bonus episode with the head of Disney, Bob Iger. Now, Tom, normally our bonus episodes are only for members of our much-loved Rest is History club, but this one is a little bit different, isn't it?

• 3:34Tom Holland?

  Yeah, so this week, we've done two episodes on Disney. We looked at the man himself and we looked at Disneyland. And also, of course, if you're a member of the club, you would have got to listen to the coda, to our epic series on Nelson, where we talked about what happened to Lady Emma Hamilton after Nelson's death. But in this special bonus episode, we are with Bob Iger and we are discussing with him Walt Disney's legacy with the man who now runs Disney.

• 4:03Dominic Sandbrook?

  So a very unusual bonus episode for us, a bonus, bonus episode, in fact. Hope you enjoy it.

• 4:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  So Bob, here we are, amazing setting, stage one here at Burbank. And we've just come from Walt's office, which you showed us. And you're one of, I guess, really three people in the majority of Disney's history who've run the company. And I mean, no offence, but you're not going to be running it forever.

• 4:32Speaker 02

  No offence taken.

• 4:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's good.

• 4:34Speaker 02

  I hope I'm not.

• 4:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  So what do you think, you know, we've talked a lot about Walt's legacy. What do you think your legacy will be when you look back on your time as the kind of custodian of this amazing, well, the captain of this fantastic ship?

• 4:47Speaker 02

  Yes, I think about this often, actually. And I think because of the company's place in the world, I think the person running the company has a special responsibility of sorts to maintain Disney's position in the world as a beloved company, as an admired company, as a company that entertains really the world, everyone of all ages and, you know, from all different walks of life. And I think more than anything else, I would want to be known as someone who was given the keys to this kingdom, so to speak, and quite a kingdom it is. And that I brought it to a place that even Walt would be proud of.

• 5:29Speaker 02

  And what that means is more great storytelling to a larger audience, more innovation, more risk taking, more really creation of happiness. It's really that simple. You know, at one point I thought, well, okay, you're now running Disney. What's the most you want out of it? Well, not don't screw it up, but it's much more than that. I really have been mindful of the duty that I feel has been handed to me to make it even better than it's ever been.

• 5:58Dominic Sandbrook?

  And what do you think the years ahead hold for Disney? Because you've been at the forefront of so much technological change, going back to Walt, infectively inventing animation, as we were talking about earlier. But also you're a company rooted in history. So how are you going to, how do you think Disney and your successors will navigate that?

• 6:15Speaker 02

  Is, I think you would both probably agree, it's hard to project 50 years ahead.

• 6:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 6:20Speaker 02

  About anything, really. Because the world is changing so rapidly and in such profound ways. And you know, as I think about the future, one, I would hope that my successors would be respectful of our past and well aware of the values that really created the value of the company in the first place and carry them forward, but not let anything that's been done in the past get in the way of bringing the company into the future. And that's really constant innovation, a constant exploration, you know, constant essentially desire to reinvent and or to

• 6:59Speaker 02

  invent even. More than anything else, that's what I'd want. But I think we do occupy a place in the world as great storytellers, perhaps maybe the greatest. And I would hope that that position would would continue for years and years, decades ahead.

• 7:16Dominic Sandbrook?

  And talking of great storytellers, obviously, we're very out of character, Tom, let's not talk about ourselves in this context. So how did you get into the rest of this history, could I ask?

• 7:27Speaker 02

  Well, actually, a colleague of mine here at Disney, Christina Shaki, who was our chief communications officer and is a history buff, I think, recommended it initially. We share an interest in in nonfiction, particularly books about history. And she was the first that suggested I listen to it. And I think during COVID, it served a great purpose. I went for many walks and liked to listen to a variety of different things, podcasts and music. And and it was just a wonderful way to occupy time in what was obviously a pretty tricky time of our lives.

• 8:03Dominic Sandbrook?

  And are there particular subjects from history that have really fired your imagination?

• 8:07Speaker 02

  This is a commercial for the rest of history, I guess.

• 8:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  We're all in favor of that.

• 8:11Speaker 02

  What I love about it is that, one, it gives me the ability to tap into things that I've already been interested in and I know a little bit about, and you teach me more. But you also introduced me to subjects that I wouldn't have been even curious about.

• 8:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 8:24Speaker 02

  The recent one about Marie Antoinette comes to mind. On the other hand, I was always fascinated with the Titanic. And your multi parter on the Titanic filled in so many blanks for me and created so much more context. I also am an aficionado of certainly American history, particularly American presidents.

• 8:41Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 8:41Speaker 02

  So the assassination of Lincoln comes to mind as one that I was particularly interested in. One I recently listened to about Reagan and the attempt on his life.

• 8:51Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 8:51Speaker 02

  I also found interesting, looking back, I think in 1968 and Nixon and the anti-Vietnam movement.

• 8:59Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 8:59Speaker 02

  So of course Custer, which was one of the all-time greats. I don't know, is that over yet?

• 9:05Tom Holland?

  Four hundred and thirty-three parts.

• 9:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 9:08Tom Holland?

  Still going strong.

• 9:09Speaker 02

  He eventually died, fortunately, I guess.

• 9:11Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 9:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, but then we still carried on after he died. So to give you a sense of how the rest of this history worked, this is not a production process that I would recommend at Disney. We were originally scheduled to do one episode, which would be fifty-five minutes. And there was a point at which we'd reached, we'd done about eight or nine. And Theo and Tabby, our producers, left their mics on and they were, I could hear them bitterly complaining that the series had now swollen to about ten hours.

• 9:35Tom Holland?

  Because I think originally, we were going to do the entire history of Native Americans in four episodes.

• 9:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 9:41Tom Holland?

  And that just proved impossible.

• 9:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  It did prove impossible.

• 9:44Tom Holland?

  Yeah, not a model for these new blunders. And would you have any areas of history or themes that you would particularly like us to explore?

• 9:53Speaker 02

  I've studied and read a lot about Churchill. And I know you've touched on Churchill here and there, but I don't think you've ever done a full birth to death of Churchill.

• 10:03Tom Holland?

  We've done a young Churchill, but we have been talking about carrying, carrying his life forward, haven't we?

• 10:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  And our competing impressions of Churchill. I think that's what the bubbling really wants.

• 10:13Speaker 02

  He was, you know, he was maybe a larger-than-life figure to Americans too, at least Americans born. When I was born, I was born in nineteen fifty-one. And so he was not only very much alive, but very much active in, in politics still. And I still remember him coming to the United States for the funeral of John F. Kennedy. And thinking, here's a man that was born, I believe, in Victorian England, attending the funeral of. A man who was one of the youngest presidents ever elected. I just remember thinking about that span of history.

• 10:44Tom Holland?

  But I was struck, we did a series on the assassination of JFK and kind of looking at his early life. And I hadn't properly appreciated the way in which he was knitted in to the world of high society in Britain. So he would probably, I mean, he knew Churchill before the war. His sister married someone who then married a Mitford. Is that right?

• 11:07Speaker 02

  His father was ambassador, he was then to the court of St. James.

• 11:11Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 02

  And also had a thing or two to say about the rise of Nazism, which is now, I know that's something that you've also covered.

• 11:17Tom Holland?

  Yeah, that's right. That's something we're always asked by our Rest is History Club members, our beloved members of the Rest is History Club. They always ask us, Tom, who would you like to have dinner with from history? And Bob, it would be remiss of us not to ask you. So if you could have anybody from history for dinner, you could take them to Disneyland and have dinner with them. Who would it be?

• 11:37Speaker 02

  It would have to be Walt Disney. Uh, yes, I, I think about it often, that people always ask me, what would Walt think?

• 11:43Tom Holland?

  Right.

• 11:43Speaker 02

  You know, it's interesting too, because one of the things that was problematic for the company after Walt died so suddenly in nineteen sixty-six is the company spent so much time asking that question, what would Walt do or what would he think? So I'm not really interested in, in turning to him for advice per se. But I would be more interested in showing him what's become of the great company that he founded. And I wouldn't mind a bit of a report card, perhaps it's cocky of me to think that he would give me all A's.

• 12:16Tom Holland?

  Which, which of the rides do you think he'd be most impressed by?

• 12:19Speaker 02

  Well, you know, he, he is, I know, because you've done a little studying of Walt. He never even considered the rides, they were all stories to him, they were experiences, he wasn't building rides. And many of the, not just traditions, but values that he created and, and, and essentially built. We followed basically through on essentially either his instructions or his vision. And so when we create attractions, we try to tell stories. When we create attractions, even when we create restaurants and hotels, there's a story behind it. And in particular, I'd love to show them what we built that's derived from Star Wars mythology.

• 12:59Speaker 02

  We call the Lands Galaxy's Edge. There's one in Florida and one in his beloved Disneyland. By the way, they're billion-dollar lands. And they not only tell great stories, but as he really demonstrated back when he built Disneyland in the 50s into the 60s, he used technology to make those stories as compelling as possible in physical form, which is not easy. And these attractions in Galaxy's Edge, there are two main attractions, are an unbelievably perfect example of the blend of great technology with great storytelling in the physical world.

• 13:36Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 13:37Speaker 02

  And I'd love for him to see that.

• 13:38Tom Holland?

  And very expensive. And he loved spending enormous amounts of money on achieving his films.

• 13:44Speaker 02

  Well, you know, yes, I guess he spent loads of money in what he did. And then he made lots of money. I'm not sure that he ever thought, it was always to him, in my opinion, about how can I tell this story better? Or how can I tell a great story? And I don't think he even asked what it will cost.

• 13:59Tom Holland?

  No, and that's why Paul Roy was, oh no, you've done what? You've bought what?

• 14:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. By the way, I know that I should admit this too publicly, but often when we dream up ideas here, the first question we ask ourselves is not how much will it cost? It's can we make it great? And then eventually you get to the, well, what is this going to cost? And it doesn't make sense. Because we're trying to serve shareholders as well as customers.

• 14:22Tom Holland?

  But that is a Walt Disney inheritance, isn't it? I mean, that was very much his approach.

• 14:26Speaker 02

  It is. And I think actually, if you, if you ask what everything is going to cost before you make everything or even think about making something, then you end up not making a lot that you should have made.

• 14:38Tom Holland?

  Yeah. So that's the same with Chatham High Street.

• 14:40Dominic Sandbrook?

  Very much the Chatham High Street vibe. So on the storytelling front, are there stories that you would have loved to have been able to tell during your tenure at Disney but weren't able to? Are there any that got away? Or stories that you would like Disney to tell in the future?

• 14:58Speaker 02

  That's an interesting question. I've really not thought about what it is we haven't done. We're always dreaming about what it is we can do and like if you look at, you know, my tenure in this role.

• 15:13Speaker 02

  I'm very proud of the array of great stories that we've been able to tell. Some through acquisition of companies, starting with Pixar in 2006. And I think about the wonderful stories those artists and storytellers have told over the years from Inside Out and Up to Coco and I could go on and on. And then, of course, there was Marvel and the stories we've told there. Obviously, Black Panther and Avengers stand out. And then ultimately buying Lucasfilm from George Lucas in 2012 and continuing basically the mythology that he created, which I think is, should be considered among the the greatest mythology created at least in our lifetime.

• 15:54Speaker 02

  And telling more Star Wars tales and then buying 20th Century Fox and working with Jim Cameron on Pandora and Avatar films, for instance. So, and as we look ahead, there are so many stories that we're planning to tell that it's really not about what we're missing.

• 16:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 16:12Speaker 02

  It's how do we get all of these right? We have an unbelievable luxury of, you know, just great riches.

• 16:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  You missed out the Muppets.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Because I guess we do own the Muppets along the way. We're actually working on something for the Muppets.

• 16:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  Oh, that's good news. That's good to know.

• 16:27Speaker 03

  I do like the Muppets.

• 16:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's an interesting one, isn't it? Because the role that you've had and the role that Walt Disney had, there are not many analogies in history. There are people who've led empires and nation-states and whatnot. But effectively, I mean, this is a strange thing to say to somebody sitting just a few feet away from you, but you have more power than a lot of elected prime ministers. Not necessarily over the day-to-day lives of people, but over people's heads, people's imaginations. Do you ever think about that? Does that ever play on your mind?

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Well, I certainly don't consider myself an emperor. No, I don't think about, I think about the power of a great story, of course. But I don't think about us being powerful. I think about us having the luxury of, and that includes both the luxury of being involved with great artists and the luxury of having the resources to tell wonderful stories to the world and hopefully through our storytelling. To have a positive influence on the world, certainly in today's world, just to have the ability to make really billions of people happy is an incredible luxury and something that I'm very mindful of. But I don't think about it in terms of having power, except maybe the power to do good.

• 17:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  Oh, that's nice. That's, so that's a contrast with us, isn't it, Tom? Because we do reflect on our enormous power.

• 17:44Tom Holland?

  Yeah, but I just want to do good.

• 17:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  Do you?

• 17:46Tom Holland?

  You just want to do evil.

• 17:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's true.

• 17:48Tom Holland?

  That's the difference between us.

• 17:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  But that's the balance that makes the podcast successful.

• 17:51Tom Holland?

  Yeah, it is. That's the yin and yang.

• 17:52Speaker 02

  By the way, in terms of storytelling, you may both appreciate this. One of the biggest challenges we have when we tell these stories is figuring out what the villain is all about.

• 18:03Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 18:04Speaker 02

  You tell stories about villains all the time.

• 18:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 18:06Speaker 02

  What is motivating the villain? Why is the villain so villainous?

• 18:10Tom Holland?

  Well, they never think they're the villain, do they?

• 18:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  No one thinks they're the villain in this show.

• 18:12Speaker 02

  No, they don't. And we ultimately have to portray them, one, as villains. Because I think people love stories about good and evil, particularly good, triumphing over evil. But telling stories where you actually explain what is driving that villain to be so damn nasty.

• 18:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, that's one of the fascinating things with the show, actually. And with any great, with any attempt to tell a good story, is to get inside the heads of people who have different assumptions from you, right? And so we did an episode about the Nazis to try to explain why

• 18:42Tom Holland?

  They thought that they weren't the badies.

• 18:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, why did they not think they were evil? And it can often be a, I guess it's not unlike writing a great fictional story in that you are, it's an act of imagination. You have to put yourself into somebody else's shoes. And that's one of the fascinating, that's one of the things that history and fiction have in common, I suppose, the act of imagination.

• 19:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Right now, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. So go to mintmobile.com/history. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20 gigabytes of hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed, and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 19:41Speaker 04

  Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall and handsome? Not always. I was 6'10" once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven-day return policy at carvana.com.

• 20:12Speaker 05

  Low energy, unfocused, foggy? You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade: Hydrates Better Than Water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist.

• 20:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  So we'll be heading to Disneyland shortly, which we're very excited about, I have to say. You first saw Disneyland, I guess, on TV. You were growing up in New York, Oceanside, I think it is.

• 20:55Speaker 02

  I grew up in a town called Oceanside, but I lived in Brooklyn, New York originally.

• 20:58Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 20:59Speaker 02

  And that's where we had a very small black and white television.

• 21:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 21:02Speaker 02

  And that's where I experienced Walt Disney and Disneyland for the first time.

• 21:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 21:07Speaker 02

  In a program that ABC carried on its network.

• 21:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, because that ABC connection was really important, wasn't it? To raise the money for Disneyland. And what did Disneyland mean to you growing up at that point in time? I guess paradise, you know, utopia? Talk us through what it kind of represented.

• 21:27Speaker 02

  Walt was, as we know, not only a great storyteller, but one of the all-time great salesmen of his time. We forget that, that, you know, another aspect of Walt's talent was his salesmanship. And he decided that not only to raise the money, but also to sell the product, he should have a television program. So he licensed to ABC a program that essentially told the story of building Disneyland. And so here I was as a three, four, five-year-old, watching on a small black and white TV. Walt not only talk about building Disneyland, but watching it on the program, actually rise from the ground in Orange County, California. And I remember it being incredibly aspirational.

• 22:12Speaker 02

  And I think actually it served that purpose to, you know, hundreds of millions, billions of people around the world, seeing it, which seemed like something that never existed before, a form of entertainment that he really invented. It wasn't, and I can't wait to show it to you, because it is not an amusement park at all. It's a concept unto itself.

• 22:34Tom Holland?

  The idea of filming an experiment and a project that could so easily have gone wrong. I mean, that is expressive of cojones.

• 22:45Speaker 02

  Yes, yes.

• 22:46Tom Holland?

  Of an order that he repeatedly displayed throughout his career.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Yes, and like I admire so much about Walt. I'd say one of the things I admire the most is his guts. I won't use the term that you use because I'm a Disney guy.

• 22:58Tom Holland?

  Yeah, of course.

• 22:58Speaker 02

  I'm more G-rated than perhaps you guys are. But he had unbelievable guts. Actually, more than guts, it was courage.

• 23:06Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 23:06Speaker 02

  He had a vision. He was almost always convinced that his vision was right. And he had the confidence to attempt really to execute it. And that's both confidence in the ability to basically build successfully, but also the ability to look really above and beyond the naysayers and those that said it can't be done. If you said something couldn't be done, Walt set about to do it. It was that simple. And so I watched this ambition actually almost jump out of the screen. I remember it as a kid. And you couldn't help but want to go there. Because again, it was so new. It was so, it seemed so big, so fresh.

• 23:51Speaker 02

  So just almost extraordinary. And actually, it's interesting, I was thinking back, building, bringing Disneyland to Shanghai. So here we were in the earlier part of, really this century, wanting to plant a Disneyland flag of sorts in China. And thinking about not just what we would build, but whether it would become the beacon to people all around China that Disneyland was to Americans in the 50s. And it's interesting, that actually has happened, that a lot of people in China are well aware of Disneyland. It serves as the number one tourist attraction in Shanghai. Millions, tens of millions of people have visited it,

• 24:36Speaker 02

  which is tiny compared to the total population of China. But as we have done research, we've discovered that people's desire to visit, and by the way, we opened Shanghai Disneyland on national television in Shanghai, just as Walt had done with Disneyland in 1955. Learning from Walt, not just how to market, but how to ignite an interest. And it's just, it's such an interesting entertainment experience that when you see it, even on the screen, you almost feel you have to visit.

• 25:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  So when we're going to Disneyland, what should we be looking out for? What are you most looking forward to showing us?

• 25:13Speaker 02

  Well, first of all, you have to look at how other people are experiencing it. You'll see wonder on their faces. You'll see a rush to get through the gates and get to their favorite attraction. You'll see children and their parents and grandchildren and friends and groups of people from all different kind of collections of society walking in with a sense of wonder on their faces. So look at the people first. I still, by the way, and I don't know how many times I've been to one of our parks, it's the first thing that I experience, the first thing that hits me really when I walk in is, my goodness, look. How these people are enjoying themselves.

• 25:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 25:52Speaker 02

  And it's an incredibly powerful feeling to have. So do watch that. You'll see immediately things that were absolutely from Walt's vision. A castle and Main Street and, you know, things that are obviously referenced from older America. There's a lot of history there. But I think you should also look at how much we've continued to invent and expand. And as he was fond of saying, as long as there's curiosity left in the world, Disneyland will never be finished.

• 26:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  And Kyle, I've never been, but the vision of the future was important to Disneyland. So has the vision of the future evolved over time?

• 26:30Speaker 02

  Well, the vision of the future is harder today. Walt's vision of the future, and I'm envious of him doing this in the 50s.

• 26:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 26:39Speaker 02

  When so much of future stories really had not been told, at least in physical form. You know, I can remember growing up in the 50s and being fascinated by Sputnik. And ultimately, the early age of space travel with both the Russians and in the American space program. And I remember them demonstrating a telephone where you actually, which had a television.

• 27:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  Unbelievable.

• 27:02Speaker 02

  Imagine making a call and seeing the person on the other end. And I think at some point, maybe there might have been a reference to microwave ovens. Well, you know, you guys are younger than I am. I remember a day when they didn't exist, but you probably don't. And so it's harder today to tell the story of Tomorrowland. Because I think in technology has done this, so much of, you know, what is around the corner. Now if we have AI, which maybe that's even endless in terms of what the future looks like. I think it just gets harder.

• 27:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  And the future of Disneyland itself continue to evolve, I guess. More, more attractions, constant innovation. So having been to Disney World, one of the things that struck me, thinking about the generations of people going, is there's an element of nostalgia to it too, isn't there? It's a place of safety and security and sort of old fashioned values to some degree. So I guess. Will Disneyland continue to kind of try to strike that balance between those two things?

• 28:01Speaker 02

  Yes, and look, the most recent park that we built in Shanghai, which opened almost ten years ago, has a Seven Dwarfs attraction.

• 28:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 28:10Speaker 02

  As a for instance.

• 28:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 28:11Speaker 02

  And it does, and Pirates of Caribbean, there's a Pirates attraction, which Walt really conceived of in the sixties at Disneyland. And there is a Tomorrowland that's slightly different. So everything that we build today is has reference to our own past. And I think carries forward basically the entertainment value of the original concept. But we have this incredible luxury of even more stories to tell as a company. So you'll see Marvel and you'll see Star Wars and you'll see Avatar and all the great, a lot of great Pixar stories, including Toy Story Land. And we're building a Monsters Land in Florida.

• 28:53Speaker 02

  So it's almost endless in terms of what we can build. But I think what you have, what you will appreciate is while the past is present, the present is present and we're hinting at a future. We're building a, currently, actually, we haven't started building, but we're conceiving of the park we're going to build in Abu Dhabi. By the way, a part of the world we have never really planted a flag in. We're extremely excited about it. And this will be a park that utilizes technology at almost every level to design and ultimately to build and then for people to experience.

• 29:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 29:28Speaker 02

  And that's incredibly exciting for our imagineers.

• 29:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  As you expand, do you feel that Disney becomes, and this is a strange thing to say, but becomes less American? Do you think, I mean, certainly under your stewardship, Disney has become this genuinely global entity. I mean, I'm not saying you're in danger of losing your American-ness, because I'm sure you never will, but do you think the perception of Disney as American is?

• 29:53Tom Holland?

  It feels less American to international consumers than it would have done thirty years ago.

• 29:57Speaker 02

  It's not purposeful on our part to become less American. It is purposeful on our part to become more inviting to the world. And to be mindful of cultural distinctions and cultural, really, passion, really. And so, for instance, when we were building Shanghai, the brief, the design brief that I gave to the team was, let's build something that is authentically Disney but distinctly Chinese. Which, in the design process and the build process, we thought about, it was our mantra, really. Because we wanted to build something that was very much Disney to them. And they had an idea in mind of what a Disneyland would be.

• 30:42Speaker 02

  But something that was extremely respectful of their own culture. So that they could feel as though it were theirs. Not, and I don't think it's viewed as American in any way. Again, it's more purposeful to fit in in a respectful way.

• 30:58Tom Holland?

  Like letting the French drink wine.

• 31:00Speaker 02

  Yes, letting, and I think, you know, there were lessons learned there in building Paris, as you call it, the miracle on the Marne, which I know is referenced to

• 31:07Tom Holland?

  That'd be such a great right.

• 31:08Speaker 02

  Something in World War One.

• 31:09Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 31:10Speaker 02

  But there, I think, there were learnings about entering a country and a culture with a little bit more sensitivity and respect. And actually, we took those learnings seriously. And as we designed Shanghai, we made sure that we didn't make mistakes that have been made in the past.

• 31:31Tom Holland?

  And can I ask, so I was just reading about the building of Disneyland's. And Walt, despite having an excellent moustache himself, forbidding people with facial hair to work there. Are you still pognophobic in your attitudes to your workforce? Or can you have a beard and a moustache?

• 31:51Speaker 02

  Yes, I don't know whether I'm afraid or proud that I'm the one that changed that. I think, you know, he was, well, I really don't know exactly what he had in mind there, except I think he wanted, I think he probably wanted his cast members, we call them, you know, they're all performing on a stage of sorts, to be very clean looking and maybe very American, I don't know. I don't think there's anything un-American, by the way, about facial hair.

• 32:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  Tell them about Lincoln.

• 32:22Speaker 02

  Today, but as I, I think in the, you know, 20 years ago, when I became CEO, it was clear that banning facial hair actually limited the number of people we could hire.

• 32:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, you couldn't have done Custer World.

• 32:34Speaker 02

  Yes, Custer had a hell of a mustache, right?

• 32:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, the ride I would love to see is a ride based on the generals of the First World War. And you could have some of those Russian generals with their enormous mustaches. Moustache Adventure. Yeah.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  This is why you guys do The Rest Is History and we build theme parks, right?

• 32:50Dominic Sandbrook?

  I suspect it probably is.

• 32:52Speaker 02

  I thought it was just practical for us to allow facial hair. And, you know, we still have grooming standards, by the way. You know, we haven't, you know, completely abandoned our desire to show up looking good.

• 33:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  Very like us at The Rest Is History, Tom. Very like. So Bob, thank you so much for giving us this time. But the torture for you is not over yet because you're taking us- Fresh excitement's to come. Yeah, you're taking us to Disneyland. And I have to say, I cannot wait. But thank you so much.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  Well, you're welcome. It's not torture for me, obviously. If I could spend every day at Disneyland, I would be a very happy fellow.

• 33:31Tom Holland?

  Thanks very much for listening. And as you heard in this episode, after that interview, Dominic and I went to Disneyland. And you can watch footage of that visit and our tour of Walt Disney's office on YouTube now. Simply click the link in this episode's description or head to YouTube and search for The Rest Is History.

• 33:48Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, I really advise people to do that because they'll see the greatest moment in the history of The Rest Is History, which is our producer, Theo Young Smith, being detained by stormtroopers at Disneyland. And you would expect Theo to sort of respond to this in a very swashbuckling and macho manner. But actually, as you'll see if you watch the film- His actual reaction is very different. Luke Skywalker, he was not. He was not, exactly, yes. More C3PO, I would say. So, listen, we will be back next week with an extraordinarily swashbuckling and exciting series on the life of the young Elizabeth the First. So, if you're a member of the Rest is History Club, you'll actually get all four episodes of that series on Monday.

• 34:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  The rest of you, I'm afraid, will have to wait. And a final reminder, if you want to see Tom enjoying himself on the Pirates of the Caribbean ride, and Theo Youngsmith being arrested at Galaxy's Edge, then click the link in this episode's description, or head to YouTube and search for The Rest is History, and believe me, you will not regret it. Bye-bye. Goodbye.

• 35:09Speaker 06

  Here we are getting a statement from Number Ten on that flight with 350 passengers on board.

• 35:18Speaker 07

  The Great Game, strategic struggle between Britain and Russia.

• 35:26Speaker 08

  We assess, Prime Minister, with high confidence it was Russian.

• 35:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Holding the Russians accountable is World War III.

• 35:34Speaker 09

  They took down a British passenger jet containing 350 people.

• 35:37Speaker 07

  Man in the Kremlin is playing, Alex. Got to ask yourself, you want to play or not? You're the Prime Minister. You've done nothing!

• 35:50Tom Holland?

  We would need to understand the policy context.

• 35:53Speaker 07

  All the relevant context will be structured as a framework today, disseminated into an operation order, or FRAGO.

• 36:01Speaker 10

  A FRAGO that says to kill the President of Russia?

• 36:06Speaker 07

  Yes.

• 36:08Speaker 03

  New from Goalhanger. Who is going to be able to pull this off?

• 36:13Speaker 11

  You're my soldier, are you? Sergeant Tom MacDuff, Duffy!

• 36:17Speaker 03

  An audio drama journey like no other.

• 36:19Speaker 11

  Men like Duffy, they are our most valuable weapons.

• 36:23Speaker 03

  Devized as a technically rigorous geopolitical action thriller.

• 36:26Speaker 11

  We have two tight friendly KIA.

• 36:27Speaker 03

  Where Britain plays its strongest hand. He's the best. Against its strongest foe.

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Bear Hunt. Available now wherever you get your podcasts.