Pod Insights The Rest Is History 679. Germany: The Song Hitler Stole (Part 3) About this episode Why is the German national anthem the most controversial of all? Is it true that it is Austrian in origin? And, what happened when Germany split after the Second World War? Did it perhaps lead to an absolute banger in the form of East Germany’s new anthem..?
Join Tom and Dominic as they discuss the history of Germany and its various different anthems.
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Transcript 12,594 words · 6 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
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4:18 Tom Holland? Guten Tag. And that was, of course, the national anthem of Germany. And Dominic, this time in the World Cup, the Germans aren't kind of massive favourites, are they?
4:31 Tom Holland? I mean, when it comes to European teams in the World Cup, the Germans are pretty irresistible. They've won the World Cup four times, they've been runners up four times. They have reached the last four thirteen times, which is more even than the Brazilians.
4:49 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
4:50 Tom Holland? And as the co-founder of our own beloved production company put it, football is a simple game. Twenty-two men chase a ball for ninety minutes and at the end, the Germans always win. And the consequence of that is that football fans certainly have got used to hearing the German anthem a great deal.
5:11 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, that's right.
5:12 Tom Holland? There are, of course, other reasons why the German anthem is quite familiar. And that's not to do with football at all, but possibly to do with the history of Germany in the twentieth century. And you think that as well as being incredibly familiar, it is also actually the most misunderstood because its roots are not kind of militaristic and its lyrics are not an assertion of German power over the rest of the world, as is often sometimes thought.
5:45 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, I do think that, Tom. I do think it's misunderstood. So I would say that if you were to stop people in the streets in Britain and say to them, what is the German national anthem called? I think there's no doubt that most people would say, oh, everyone knows what it's called. It's called Deutschland uber Alles. I mean, this is just the general assumption in Britain, I think, because we've been traumatized by so many war films.
6:05 Tom Holland? Yeah, and the uber alles means Germany number one.
6:08 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, Germany over everybody else.
6:10 Tom Holland? Yeah.
6:10 Dominic Sandbrook? Actually, it's not called Deutschland uber Alles. It was written in eighteen forty-one and the title of the anthem is Das Lied der Deutschen, The Song of the Germans. And today, when you hear that anthem, so when, you know, in the nineteen eighties, some unlovely German, West German team was storming to a European or world title.
6:33 Tom Holland? With a massive mullet.
6:36 Dominic Sandbrook? Terrible mullets and moustaches, Rudy Vola or some such player. When they were, to the horror of people around the world, winning tournaments left, right and centre, they never, ever sang Deutschland uber Alles. It's the kind of thing you would see in newspaper headlines in Britain. In the Daily Mirror or something, but they actually sing Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit, which Tom translates, as we both know, as unity and right and freedom.
7:05 Tom Holland? That is not as helpful, is it, to the headline writers of the Daily Mirror?
7:10 Dominic Sandbrook? Not at all, not at all. And that's because what Germans sing today is actually the third verse of the hymn, not the first. And this is for historical reasons that we will get into. So we will be talking about things like the Weimar Republic, the Third Reich and so on, East Germany. So there's a lot to unpack in this episode.
7:26 Tom Holland? Yeah, I mean, it is controversial.
7:28 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly. So there were a couple of controversies, actually, just a few months ago, like last autumn. So first of all, there was a row when two AFD politicians, so politicians of the far-right party, the AFD, they went to New York City and they were filmed singing the first verse in a bar with the president of the Young Republican Club of New York. So they were singing Deutschland über alles there. And that was a bad look, I think, both for the Germans. I have to say, I think it was a bad look for the Young Republican president as well. And at the same time, the vice president of Die Linke, the left-wing party in Germany, which is a descendant of the old Communist Party of East Germany, this is a guy called
8:11 Dominic Sandbrook? Bodo Ramelow, who actually used to be the minister president of Turingia, of the estate in the in the east of Germany.
8:18 Tom Holland? And was actually from West Germany?
8:20 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes. So Bodo Ramelow said, I know many East Germans who do not sing the national anthem. And he said, we should have a referendum on a new anthem. And what I would like is a song written in 1950 by Bertolt Brecht. And I quote, a pan-German anthem that we could all sing together with joy. And we'll be coming back to this later on.
8:43 Tom Holland? I have a German friend who completely agrees with with that.
8:46 Dominic Sandbrook? Really?
8:47 Tom Holland? She, yeah, she loves the Bertolt Brecht song.
8:49 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, come to the Bertolt Brecht song. But let's start with what is the anthem right now, the Song of the Germans. So das Lied der Deutschen. And I think it has actually perhaps the most fascinating history of any national anthem, including Tom, our own, which is a shocking thing to say.
9:04 Tom Holland? I mean, it didn't get there first, did it? I mean, that's the important thing. We got there first.
9:08 Dominic Sandbrook? Compared with our own, it is a latecomer. So we'll start with the tune. The tune was written in 1797 by the composer Josef Haydn. Haydn was an Austrian, that is to say, he was the subject of the Habsburg Empire. He's obviously one of the titans of 18th century classical music. So Haydn, for people who are not massively into their classical music, he's often seen as the person who invented the symphony, the string quartet, the sonata. Mozart and Beethoven are standing on Haydn's shoulders. He's a tremendous person to have as the writer of your national anthem.
9:40 Tom Holland? And he's a tremendous person because he's a massive fan of Nelson, isn't he?
9:44 Dominic Sandbrook? Oh, yes, of course. Yeah, I'd forgotten that.
9:46 Tom Holland? He writes a mass which comes to be called the Nelson Mass. And he hangs out with Nelson and Emma when they're on their comical procession across across the continent.
9:57 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly so. So, yeah, he's from an older generation than Mozart, say. So he spends most of his time basically as a glorified servant. He's the music director for the Esterhazy family in Hungary. In 1790, Prince Esterhazy had died, so Haydn was free to do what he liked and he went to London. And there he is a massive celebrity and he hears people, and don't forget, this is in the context of the French Revolution and then the Napoleonic Wars. So he hears people singing God Save the King, which of course is very current at the time.
10:30 Tom Holland? The first pop song.
10:31 Dominic Sandbrook? He comes back to Vienna and he's a great celebrity in Vienna as well. And he writes this in 1797 and there's a particular reason why he writes it. So 1797 is a very anxious moment for the Viennese. They're fighting against revolutionary France, but they've actually lost their territories in what becomes Belgium and they're being absolutely hammered by the revolutionary general Napoleon Bonaparte in Italy. And Haydn wants to do his bit to raise national morale. And he's just come back from London. There, everybody is singing God Save the King, you know, Down with the French, Down with Boney, all of this. And to quote an official Austrian account written later, he envied the British nation
11:13 Dominic Sandbrook? for a song through which it could at festive occasions show in full measure its respect and love for its ruler. Haydn wished that Austria too could have a similar national anthem.
11:23 Tom Holland? And what's impressive about that is that we heard in our last episode that lots of countries copy the tune of God Save the King. Like, the assumption is that if you've got to have a national anthem, that's the tune that you have to have. But Haydn, as, you know, one of the great musicians, he's not going to be content with just ripping off the tune of God Save the King.
11:41 Dominic Sandbrook? He's going to write his own. And he deliberately says he wants to write it to inflame the hearts of the Austrians to new heights of devotion to their princes and their fatherland. So he teams up with a poet called Lorenz Leopold Haschka to write an anthem. And they dedicate it to the Emperor Franz II, Francis II. And they first perform it on his birthday, 12th of February, 1797. And the first line is a bit of a ripoff of God Save the King. It is, "God save Franz the Emperor. Gott erhält Franz den Kaiser."
12:13 Tom Holland? So he hasn't ripped off the tune, but he's ripped off the words.
12:16 Dominic Sandbrook? This guy Lorenz Leopold Haschka, I suppose, has ripped off the words. Anyway, as anyone who knows the German anthem will know, the tune is quite slow, quite stately. And there's a musicologist who's written about this called Michael Geisler, who is a German scholar working in the United States. And he argues that Haydn basically gets this from an Austrian folk song, that that's the inspiration for it. It's not a march, it is a sort of slow, stately, very hummable, that's kind of music that would appeal to the masses, I suppose.
12:50 Tom Holland? But also, it's really interesting, because if it's a folk song, this is the aid of Romanticism, the idea that folk songs arise from the kind of mass consciousness of the people. There is something of the Romantic there, but also something of the tradition about the God Save the King, that it has risen from, you know, the ancient depths.
13:08 Dominic Sandbrook? It's perfectly calibrated. But for that reason, it's a massive hit. Haydn is very proud of it. It is said that during his final illness in 1809, he played, this was the song that he played again and again on the piano. And his servants actually recorded this is the last thing Haydn ever played before he died. So. Austrian anthem, very popular, continues for decades. There's an account from the 1840s. Who does not know the Austrian song, God Save the Emperor? Who has not with heartfelt emotion often joined in singing it? It has penetrated the very blood of Austria's inhabitants. All of Germany honours it. And even in foreign lands, the lovely melody has found a welcome reception. And the welcome reception, people like Beethoven, Rossini, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky,
13:50 Dominic Sandbrook? they all write adaptations of it or variations on it. But nobody at this stage doubts that it is Austrian and not German. It is a Habsburg anthem. And so now we get to the point where it turns into a German one. And the guy who does this is a poet with the excellent name of August Heinrich Hoffman von Fallersleben.
14:13 Tom Holland? What is it?
14:14 Dominic Sandbrook? August Heinrich Hoffman von Fallersleben.
14:17 Tom Holland? Very easy to say, Tom.
14:18 Dominic Sandbrook? Steady to say. That was the first take.
14:21 Tom Holland? Listeners, that was Dominic's sixth attempt.
14:23 Dominic Sandbrook? So he is from Lower Saxony, from Brunswick. He's the son of a merchant and he became a professor of literature in Prussia, in Breslau, which was then in Prussia, now it's in Poland. Now Hoffman, we'll just call him Hoffman. He's idealistic, high minded. He's, he's very frustrated with what's happened to German politics after the end of the Napoleonic Wars.
14:49 Tom Holland? So he's a classic German intellectual in the period of the Napoleonic Wars.
14:53 Dominic Sandbrook? He's a total German intellectual.
14:55 Tom Holland? Wistful, yearning for all kinds of things that Germany doesn't have.
14:59 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly. Cause what's happened is once the French invaded what becomes Germany in the Napoleonic Wars, you got, you got a sort of dual process. On the one hand, people were inspired by the ideals of the French Revolution. But on the other hand, they reacted against French occupation. So this is a huge boost to the idea of German nationalism and the idea of uniting all German speakers in a single state and a liberal state. So one that will stand up for freedom of the press and democratic citizenship and all these things. So if you're a poet or a literature professor, or in this bloke's case, both, you're absolutely, you know, you're imbued with all this kind of thing. And you look at what's happened in the 1820s and 30s, so the age of reaction. Basically democratic ideals being put back in their box.
15:41 Tom Holland? So Waterloo, Napoleon has been defeated and the, I suppose the ideals of the French Revolution have been, seem to have been crushed.
15:48 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, exactly so. And so this guy Hoffman is sitting there. Now, he's already written one hymn. He's written that unusual thing, a, a, a song literally celebrating a customs union. It's a hymn celebrating the Zollverein, which is this German customs union that paves the way for German unity. So he's written this song and 1841, he's on holiday on the North Sea island of Heligoland. And Heligoland at this point was owned by Britain. It's basically off the northern, North German coast.
16:18 Tom Holland? Yeah, he's having a, a British holiday.
16:20 Dominic Sandbrook? He's having a British seaside holiday. And he's sitting there and he thinks, probably raining if it's a British seaside holiday. And he thinks to himself, well, I'll write another these excellent songs. And he writes the song of the Germans, das Lied der Deutschen. Now today, as we've already discussed, the lyrics are seen as a little bit problematic in some quarters. I said that with the seriousness it deserved. So we should say a bit about them. So what you heard at the beginning of the programme is, as we've said, the third verse, einig kite und recht und freiheit. And when you look at the lyrics, they are your absolute standard national anthem bingo. So unity and rights and freedom for the German
17:01 Dominic Sandbrook? fatherland. Let us strive for this together, brotherly with heart and hand, and so on and so forth.
17:07 Tom Holland? It's a kind of word salad, isn't it?
17:09 Dominic Sandbrook? It is a word salad. The second verse is, so this is the one before the third verse, obviously.
17:16 Tom Holland? Mastery of maths kicking in there. Good to see.
17:19 Dominic Sandbrook? Just explaining. So this is, this is seen as inappropriate today and because it is sexist. So deutsche Frauen, deutsche Troja, deutsche Wein und deutsche Sang. So this is German women, German loyalty, German wine, German song. And these are the things that inspire us to do noble deeds. Unfortunately, Tom, you cannot now say German women in that list because that implies that the people who are doing the deeds are men and that women are just like the wine and the song. They are, they're being objectified unfortunately.
17:52 Tom Holland? But maybe you could change it according to the sex of whoever is singing the song.
17:56 Dominic Sandbrook? Deutsche Mensch or something, would it be?
17:59 Tom Holland? Wouldn't that work?
18:00 Dominic Sandbrook? I mean, you should take this up with the
18:02 Tom Holland? With the Germans.
18:03 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, with the Germans.
18:06 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, send an email to the Germans and suggest your idea and see how you get them.
18:11 Tom Holland? Yeah.
18:11 Dominic Sandbrook? So that's the second verse. Now, again, my master in maths, before the second verse is the first verse, which nobody sings. And this actually does start Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, über alles in der Welt. And this does not mean Germany over everybody else.
18:28 Tom Holland? A programme for global conquest is not what it means. Right. So what does it mean?
18:33 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, Germany at this point doesn't exist. So the Germans couldn't invade and conquer anybody.
18:39 Dominic Sandbrook? Hoffman would have been amazed to hear people say this is militaristic and a call for expansionism. What it's actually a call for, the song is aimed at the people of the different states of Germany, this patchwork, this quilt, this mosaic, very fragmented statelets. And he is saying to those people, and specifically to their rulers and their governments, put aside your differences, your jealousies, your petty regional loyalties, and put the ideal of Germany first. So literally, it means Germany above everything else. Let's, you know, bury these petty grievances and unite around a collective ideal.
19:18 Tom Holland? So it's, it's like the, the ode to joy as the anthem for the European Union. It's kind of implicitly saying, let's bury our differences and celebrate a greater whole.
19:28 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly. That's what it is. And at the time, this is not a conservative idea. It's a liberal idea. So the people who are singing this song and the people who love this kind of stuff, students, poets, long haired people of all kinds, they love all this. There is one other controversial element in the first verse though, and this is some geographical detail. So von der Mars bin and im Memel, von der Etch bis and ein Belt. Now, I don't know how your European geography is, Tom.
19:56 Tom Holland? Well, I, I know where the Merz is.
19:58 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes.
19:59 Tom Holland? Or the Mars, because it's coming up in our next episode.
20:02 Dominic Sandbrook? So there's the Merz runs down through the, from the Netherlands into France. Then the next one is die Memel. This is the, the river Niemen, we would call this now. So that's kind of Poland, Lithuania kind of area. Der Etch is the Adijé, that's in Italy. And the last one, and ein Belt, the belt, the little belt is a Danish straight off the coast of Jutland. Now, you might look at that and say, what, what's going on here?
20:29 Tom Holland? Yeah.
20:29 Dominic Sandbrook? Hoffman wants to construct this vast empire that, um, that, that includes other people's rivers. What's he thinking? Actually, what he's thinking is this, there was no Germany at this point. The map is very fluid. He's looking at the map and saying, well, there's kind of German speakers that way, that way, that way. It's just a sort of very vague ideal of roughly where Germany is. It's absolutely not an irredentist kind of Gabrielle de Nuncio style programme.
20:59 Tom Holland? It's a bit menacing for the Danes.
21:02 Dominic Sandbrook? I mean, the Danes at this point could console themselves that they actually exist, whereas the Germans don't.
21:06 Tom Holland? Sure, but I mean, it's like you have poets coming up and kind of menacing you with lyrics.
21:12 Dominic Sandbrook? I think you are, uh, you're only saying that because you're aware of what happens subsequently. So at the autumn of 1841, the song is finished and it's first performed on the night of the 5th of October. We know exactly when. There's a liberal politician from Baden called Karl Wecker. And he's visiting Hamburg where Hoffman and his mates are. Hoffman and his mates, who are from a local choir, they go to this bloke's hotel. They sing songs outside by torchlight.
21:36 Tom Holland? Of course they do.
21:37 Dominic Sandbrook? Annoying if Karl Wecker wants to get some sleep, I suppose. Anyway, one of them is this song, the Song of the Germans.
21:43 Tom Holland? Is it a massive hit?
21:44 Dominic Sandbrook? No, it doesn't really catch on. It's, um, it's actually reprinted in some student songbooks, but unlike, say, the Star Spangled Banner, which we did last week, or God Save the King, which we also did last week. This is not an overnight hit by any means. People aren't, you know, running around the streets, singing it or something. The next year, uh, Hoffman loses his job as a professor in Breslau because the Prussian authorities say this bloke's a dangerous subversive with his long hair and his hymns. Get rid.
22:11 Tom Holland? Do you think they've been nobbled by the Danes?
22:13 Dominic Sandbrook? Surely, definitely. So he's sent off, he goes off into exile in Switzerland. Six years later, revolution sweeps across Central Europe. We did an episode about this a couple of years ago.
22:25 Tom Holland? This is 1848.
22:26 Dominic Sandbrook? In 1848 with Professor Sir Christopher Clarke. And for a brief moment, it looks as though all the German states are going to be united in a liberal federal, you know, uh, superstate with this lovely flag, a tricolor of, um, black, red and gold.
22:43 Dominic Sandbrook? But it doesn't happen. The Austrian and Prussian monarchies fight back. They suppress the revolution. Hoffman ends up being pardoned. He never gets to see his name in lights. He becomes, very boringly, he becomes the librarian to the Duke of Ratibor.
22:56 Tom Holland? Oh, no.
22:57 Dominic Sandbrook? No one wants that. And he dies in obscurity in 1874.
23:01 Tom Holland? Can I just ask one question? So this kind of irredentist list that you say is interredentist.
23:06 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
23:07 Tom Holland? Is Austria part of this? Is he kind of ambitious to see Austria become part of Germany?
23:12 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, if you think that the Adige, which is in Italy, that would imply that Austria would become part of this, yes. And I don't forget, until the advent of Bismarck, it's not clear that Germany will not include Habsburg Catholic Austria. In fact, there are lots of people going right into the 20th century who think that Austria should be part of Germany.
23:34 Tom Holland? And so if that's the case, is his kind of appropriation of the Austrian anthem a way of saying, well, what is good for Austria is good for all Germans, do you think?
23:42 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, I think possibly. I think people would recognise it by this point as an Austrian anthem, but don't forget it's already been different. We've already said there are different composers have written versions of it. So it's sort of gone viral, I suppose, and is being adapted. But yeah, I think people would, in Germany, let's say in Hamburg, when they're first singing it by torchlight, no one says, hold on, this is an Austrian anthem. I think they think it's completely reasonable that Germany would have, you know, that a song about the Germans would have an Austrian tune, because the Austrians, of course, are part of the German family. That's what they think.
24:12 Tom Holland? Understood.
24:13 Dominic Sandbrook? Anyway, by the time he dies in 1874, Germany has become a reality. It is not the liberal federation that he and his friends envisaged. It's been created by Prussia, and particularly by Prussia's Minister President Otto von Bismarck, with his policy of blood and iron. So actually, what the Prussians have done, they fight three wars in six years against Denmark, the Danes again, Tom, Denmark, Austria and France.
24:39 Dominic Sandbrook? And what they do is they weld together all the German states except Austria in one empire. So there are 25 different states of this empire and the overall emperor is the King of Prussia.
24:54 Tom Holland? And the King of Prussia?
24:56 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
24:56 Tom Holland? Doesn't Prussia have the our own beloved national anthem? Or at least it did for a time. It had God Save the tune of God Save the Queen as it as its anthem.
25:06 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, it does. So the Prussians do not adopt the sing of the Germans. They see it as a part of the failed, long-haired liberal experiment of the 1840s. The Prussians have their own anthem. They don't share with the other parts of the empire. It's just the Prussian anthem. And you're absolutely right. The anthem is called Hail Dear Im Siegerkranz, Hail to Thee in the Victors Crown. And it is a direct rip off of God Save the King. So it goes Hail Dear Im Siegerkranz, Herr Schur des Vaterland, Hail Kaiser Dear, and so on and so forth. They sing it better than I do. It is not popular outside Prussia. And the southern kingdoms of Bavaria and Württemberg, they're part of the empire,
25:50 Dominic Sandbrook? but they still have their own kings. They want nothing to do with this anthem. They just see it as Prussian rubbish. So actually, the song that is much more popular across the Kaiser's Germany is another song, which is called Divact am Rhein, The Watch on the Rhine. So this is similar vintage. It comes from 1840, but it's not a sort of long-haired liberal song at all. It's a much more militaristic song. So in 1840, there was a brief panic that the French were going back to their old tricks and they were going to invade and seize the Rhineland. And a poet, another poet, though not a sort of, not quite, not a pacifist poet.
26:32 Tom Holland? A manly poet.
26:33 Dominic Sandbrook? A manly poet with the excellent name of Max Schneckenberger.
26:38 Dominic Sandbrook? Wrote a poem and he called on all patriotic Germans to make sure no enemy ever sets his foot on the shore of the Rhine. So the chorus in English, dear fatherland, put your mind at rest, firm and true stands the watch, the watch on the Rhine. And because it's militaristic and because it is anti-French, soldiers sing it in the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71. It becomes a massive hit in Germany. Bismarck loves it and he gives Schneckenberger's widow an annual pension. So if Germany has an anthem at this point, it's probably closer to being the watch on the Rhine. Meanwhile, the Song of the Germans, people have kind of forgotten about it by this point. To quote Michael Geisler, it's mouldering away in the basement
27:23 Dominic Sandbrook? of a Hamburg publishing house, which is nothing, not a fate anyone would welcome. But then, it's again the British, the British re-enter the story. So it's an interaction with the British that revives it. In July 1890, Britain and Germany sign a treaty to swap some territory. So the British get Zanzibar and a bit of Kenya, the Germans get another bit of East Africa, and they get Heligoland.
27:49 Tom Holland? I'm really sad about that.
27:51 Dominic Sandbrook? You'd like Heligoland to still be British?
27:53 Tom Holland? I'd have loved to have kept it, yeah.
27:54 Dominic Sandbrook? What would you do with it?
27:55 Tom Holland? Um, I would make a massive naval base.
28:00 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, that would have been fun in the First World War.
28:02 Tom Holland? I'd menace the Baltic and the German coast.
28:04 Dominic Sandbrook? You'd blockade Ljubljak or something.
28:06 Tom Holland? You see, I feel Britain got the worst of that deal.
28:09 Dominic Sandbrook? You don't rate Zanzibar, clearly, which is sad.
28:11 Tom Holland? It's, I mean, it's a bit far away, isn't it?
28:14 Dominic Sandbrook? I guess so. The Heligoland is colder, but I can imagine you going there for some sort of seaside break.
28:20 Tom Holland? A bracing walk, bracing walking holiday.
28:24 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly. Anyway, Heligoland has been lost to Britain, which is sad for you. There's an official ceremony to mark its incorporation to the German Empire. And the organisers of the ceremony say, well, ideally, could there be a song written in Heligoland that celebrates German unity?
28:42 Tom Holland? Menacing the Danes, perhaps?
28:44 Dominic Sandbrook? And they scout around in the basement of this Hamburg publishing house. And guess what? They blow the dust off it. Unbelievable, such a song exists. So they sing it at the ceremony and now it starts to catch on. And it's played in the 1890s and student groups start to sing it and whatnot. Not everybody liked it. So Nietzsche, I know you're very interested in Nietzsche. Nietzsche hated the German anthem.
29:07 Tom Holland? Did he kind of want a Wagner opera or something? Go on for seven hours?
29:11 Dominic Sandbrook? I think what he didn't like about it, he thought it, he just thought it was bass and Philistine.
29:16 Tom Holland? Well, it is. I mean, that's the point, isn't it?
29:18 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, I suppose. He didn't approve of the nationalism of the late 19th century.
29:23 Tom Holland? He kind of gave up his German citizenship.
29:25 Dominic Sandbrook? He did, exactly, exactly. So that's the first moment when, that enshrines it. The second moment, we actually already mentioned on the show. So Germany entered the First World War on the first of August, 1914. And on the trains, the Prussian soldiers, when they go to war, they're singing Heil der im Siegerkrande. Now, unfortunately, this is the same tune as God Save the King. So it's not appropriate.
29:51 Tom Holland? So it's like the England fans booing.
29:53 Dominic Sandbrook? Lichtenstein, exactly. So the Prussians actually did get a composer called Hugo Cowen to write a new tune, but it didn't really catch on. Meanwhile, a lot of people are singing The Watch on the Rhine. So to quote one old soldier's memoir of the First World War. He's on his way to the front and he says, for the first time I saw the Rhine as we rode westward along its quiet waters to defend this, the German stream of streams from the greed of the old enemy. He means the French. The old watch on the Rhine roared out of the endless transport train into the morning sky. I felt as if my heart would burst.
30:30 Tom Holland? And Dominic, who is this old German soldier? Are you about to pull a trick that you have been known to play before?
30:37 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, it's a trick that, so this is testing listeners, whether they listen to our first, our original First World War series. Cause this, this kindly old soldier is actually the worst man in history. It's Adolf Hitler. So Hitler remembers singing The Watch on the Rhine on the train? And then they get to the front and there's a scene again that we mentioned in our First World War series. Hitler says, as he goes into action, "From the distance, the strains of a song reached our ears, coming closer and closer, blah, blah, blah. The song reached us and we passed it along. Deutschland, Deutschland, über alles, über alles in der Welt." And what he's doing, as we talked about before, is Hitler is repeating one of the great German legends of the First World War, the story of the Kindermord, the idea of this place
31:21 Dominic Sandbrook? at Langermark in November 1914. Student volunteers go into action in heavy fog, they're moaned down by the British, and they are singing the Song of the Germans. And this was reprinted in loads of German newspapers at the time. There's probably an element of truth in it because there are accounts by British and French soldiers saying they remember people doing this. And of course, we've already said, it's not a militaristic song. And I think this is what makes that story so powerful.
31:50 Tom Holland? Yeah.
31:51 Dominic Sandbrook? Because they're singing an idealistic song about their love of the idea of Germany. It's Germany above all else.
31:59 Tom Holland? It's students, isn't it, as well? So again, a kind of link back to that dreamy.
32:03 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly.
32:04 Tom Holland? Philosophical age.
32:05 Dominic Sandbrook? It's a much more powerful story because it's this utopian, idealistic song than if it had been The Wash on the Rhine, or, you know, a song about the Emperor of Prussia or whatever.
32:17 Tom Holland? Yeah, it's doomed youth.
32:18 Dominic Sandbrook? Doomed youth, exactly. Anyway, as everybody knows, Germany loses the First World War, the Kaiser's overthrown, the empire's abolished. You've got the new Weimar Republic, takes power. It's, Germany is humiliated, it's been, you know, dismembered, everybody's very embittered.
32:35 Tom Holland? Bledd of reparations and all kinds of things.
32:38 Dominic Sandbrook? Reparations, the Treaty of Versailles, exactly. The new leaders are trying to find symbols around which Germany can unite. One obvious one is the flag. So there are flag wars, flag controversies all the way through the twenties. People can't agree on what flag to fly. If you're on the right, you want the old flag, which is black, white and red. If you're on the centre, on the left, you go with the government-approved flag, which is the black, red, gold flag of 1848. That's the flag that Germans have today. But the first president of the Weimar Republic, who is a social democrat, he's Friedrich Ebert, he says, look, well, we've got to give the conservatives something. If they're not going to get the flag, we've got to give
33:21 Dominic Sandbrook? them something. I want to have the army on board, you know, I don't want them against me. And so on the third anniversary of the Weimar Constitution in August 1922, he decided to give them the song that had played such a key part in that story about the trenches, the Kindermord story, the story about the students being shot. So this, of course, is the Song of the Germans. And in his speech announcing it, actually, he doesn't talk about the first verse, Deutschland du Ballis, he talks about the third verse, which is the one Germans sing today. And he says in his speech, unity and right and freedom. In times of internal fragmentation and oppression, this triad from the poet's song voiced the
34:03 Dominic Sandbrook? longing of all Germans. Let it accompany us now on our arduous path to a better future. So basically, he thinks everyone can unite around this song. You know, there's something here for the liberals.
34:15 Tom Holland? Yeah.
34:16 Dominic Sandbrook? There's something here for the conservatives because of its First World War associations. And, you know, it will smooth the path towards a better Germany.
34:24 Tom Holland? And how does that work out?
34:25 Dominic Sandbrook? That doesn't work out well. So he dies of appendicitis in 1925. He's succeeded by Paul von Hindenburg, Prussian warus. He hates the social democrats. He doesn't really believe in the Weimar Republic. And in January 1933, as so many of our listeners will know, Hindenburg appoints as his new chancellor, the man who wrote that memoir about singing Deutschland über Alice going into battle. And that man is, of course, the worst man in history, Adolf Hitler.
34:55 Tom Holland? So after the break, we will find out what happens to Germany's national anthem under the Nazis and whether the Nazis have any other anthems that they might like to see adopted. We will then investigate the strange story of East Germany's communist anthem, and also the anthem we've already mentioned that was written by Bertolt Brecht, the great German playwright. And Dominic, we will explore just why the German anthem remains controversial to this day. So lots to look forward to. See you soon.
35:33 Dominic Sandbrook? This episode is brought to you by The Times and The Sunday Times. Tom, as another summer of top international football returns, it's truly incredible, isn't it, to think about how much the world has changed between the various tournaments?
35:47 Tom Holland? Looking back to when England hosted back in 1966, everyone in the crowd supporting England were waving Union Jacks. So what fascinating trends does that illustrate?
35:59 Dominic Sandbrook? And I suppose the last time the United States hosted the tournament was in 1994, and the mood in America in the early 1990s, you know, the Cold War was over, Clinton was in the White House.
36:08 Tom Holland? I was there for that. I was in Boston.
36:10 Dominic Sandbrook? Really? I mean, that's an aspect of the story that's very rarely reported on your presence. So you know what this reminds me of, Tom? It reminds me that the future is always uncertain. You never know what's coming, but the facts need not be uncertain. And when the world feels like it's moving too fast, The Times and The Sunday Times empower you to make smarter, more confident decisions.
36:33 Tom Holland? Click or tap the banner now to learn more or visit thetimes.com.
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37:44 Tom Holland? Hello, everyone, and welcome back to The Rest Is History. It is January 1933, and Adolf Hitler has just been appointed the Chancellor of Germany. And Dominic, as everyone will know, Hitler despises the Weimar Republic. He wants to tear it to pieces. But what is he to do about this anthem, the song of the Germans, which was adopted only 11 years earlier and which he had heard being sung by doomed students on the Western Front? So on the downside, it's Weimar. On the positive side, he associates it with German heroism fighting the enemy.
38:21 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, it's meaning is ambiguous, isn't it? And Hitler doesn't scrap it, even though it's associated with the Weimar Republic. Actually, you can see why. Those opening words, Deutschland, Deutschland, über alles, Germany above everything.
38:34 Tom Holland? Yeah, you can reinterpret it, right?
38:36 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, even though Hoffmann meant them differently, if you're a Nazi, they fit your creed quite nicely. So the Nazis do keep it as a national anthem, but there's a tweak, so I mentioned before the break. Friedrich Ebert, when he adopted the anthem in 1922, said, "Let's sing the third verse, unity and rights and freedom." The Nazis say, "Forget the third verse."
39:01 Tom Holland? Let's go for the first.
39:03 Dominic Sandbrook? "Let's sing that first verse, Germany above all." And of course, it's very effective. If you're a German nationalist, if you see, you know, the opening of the Berlin Olympics, Hitler comes in to a stadium full of thousands of people singing Deutschland, Deutschland, uber alles. If you're a nationalist, this is classic, you know, Nazi theater. Your heart sings with the, with the sound of it. But there is a complication, because this is not the only song that the Nazis want you to sing. By this point, by the Berlin Olympics, the Song of the Germans is competing with an anthem that is much dearer to the Nazis' hearts. And this is a song called the Horst
39:44 Dominic Sandbrook? Wessel lead, which was written in 1929 by the paramilitary stormtrooper Commander Horst Wessel. And Tom, you know a lot about this guy, don't you? I don't mean that as an indictment of you. I mean, as a tribute to your scholarship.
40:02 Tom Holland? He features in Dominion, I have to say. That's why I know about it. So we talked about him in the series we did on the rise of the Nazis. So can't remember what episode it is, but it's there somewhere. So just to say, he was a Berlin law student. He was enthusiastic Nazi. He was a brown shirt. He was anti-communist, who would lead members of his squad through the streets of Berlin, beating up Reds and all of that. And he is shot dead by communist paramilitaries in 1930. He's only 22. There's been a big argument about his girlfriend, who is also a prostitute and has to do with the rent and all kinds of things like that. So it's all very squalid and not remotely heroic. But Goebbels isn't
40:46 Tom Holland? going to be worried by something like that. He completely rewrites the story, turns Wessel into this kind of martyr and vehicle for Nazi PR.
40:57 Tom Holland? And then when the Nazis come to power in 1933, he turns him into a national figure, the kind of the embodiment of the good Nazi.
41:05 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
41:05 Tom Holland? The almost divine figure who other Germans should aspire to.
41:10 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, exactly right. And part of this is the song. Wessel had written songs himself, marching songs.
41:15 Tom Holland? Yeah, for when they're kind of marching through Berlin.
41:17 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly.
41:18 Tom Holland? Roughing up the Reds.
41:19 Dominic Sandbrook? And had actually had one published in a Nazi paper, and this is it. Die Fahne hoch, die Ryan fest geschlossen, es are marchiet mit ruhig festem Schritt. Raise the flag, the ranks tightly closed, the SA marches with calm and steady step. And he borrowed the tune from a naval song, the Koenigsberg lead, which had been popular in the First World War. So it's a classic example, we've had this already multiple times in this National Anthem series, of people taking a familiar tune because they know that will, you know, get them a better audience. The Nazis love this song. They sing it at rallies. Whenever, you know, whenever you go to a beer hall, people are singing
41:59 Dominic Sandbrook? it. It's their answer to the Internationale of the communists. And Hitler made it official in 1933. It became, it was declared as a national symbol. And then in 1934, there was a government edict that basically whenever it was played, you had to give the Nazis salute.
42:16 Tom Holland? Well, you know, it literally becomes an anthem because the Protestant churches pick it up and they sing it on kind of Reformation Day.
42:24 Dominic Sandbrook? It's incredible, isn't it?
42:25 Tom Holland? Yeah, it's kind of sanctified.
42:27 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, I saw that detail. They sang it in churches. And I just thought, well, the Protestant churches, some of them are so close to Nazism, aren't they?
42:34 Tom Holland? They're kind of ring wraith churches, yeah.
42:36 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah. Anyway, it becomes the musical emblem of the Third Reich. So if you were to go onto YouTube and watch some random documentary, BBC documentary about the Nazis, there's undoubtedly a point where it's playing in the background and there's people marching in torchlight or something.
42:55 Tom Holland? Yeah, kind of fair haired members of the Hitler Youth beaming.
42:58 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly. So when Germany loses the war in 1945, both the tune of the Horst Wessel lead and the lyrics were banned. And they're banned to the extent that in 2011, there was a police investigation into Amazon and Apple, and both of them had to take it down from their websites. And there was a court ruling, the German Supreme Court or whatever, in 2009, ruled that you cannot even put the first words, "Die Fahnachoch", on a T-shirt. You can't wear a T-shirt with the first three words of the Horst Wessel lead. It is seen as so toxic.
43:35 Tom Holland? So as the German national anthem, that's a busted flush?
43:38 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes. Yeah, chances of becoming the post-war anthem are nil, precisely nil. So yeah, we're in, we've got to 1945, Germany devastated, defeated. This is what the Germans called "Stunde Null", zero hour. And as lots of listeners will know, Germany was divided into four occupation zones. The Soviet zone in 1949 became East Germany. And we'll come to East Germany in a second, but for now, we'll stick with the three Western zones, which in May 1949 had become the Federal Republic of Germany, West Germany. So, West Germany, the people who run West Germany have a very complicated and conflicted attitude
44:17 Dominic Sandbrook? to German history. On the one hand, West Germany, it claims a fundamental continuity with earlier German states. So the West German leaderships say, "We are tracing our lineage back to the 19th century, to all those long-haired poets, to the 1848 revolutions, to a buried tradition of German idealism." Yeah. On the other hand, West Germanist politicians say, "Well, 1945 is a great break and a chance for a completely new beginning. The Weimar Republic was a failure, the Third Reich was a criminal aberration, all previous political constitutional arrangements are null and void, we have a totally clean slate and we are starting again from scratch." Now, that's not quite how it works, because obviously
45:02 Dominic Sandbrook? the flag, they dust down the old 1848 flag, and then there's the anthem. And right from the start, people on the sort of centre right of German politics, so Christian Democrats.
45:14 Tom Holland? So like Adenauer, the first Chancellor?
45:16 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, like Konrad Adenauer. They say, let's have the Song of the Germans. Let's have the, you know, work for the Weimar Republic. It was popular in the 1840s. Perfect. But a lot of people say, no, it's too tainted. It was the official anthem during the Third Reich. You can't have it. So to start with, they have no anthem at all because they can't agree. And when they have public events, they will often play Beethoven's Ode to Joy, which of course has words by the playwright Schiller. So there's that. At other official events, madly, they play a carnival song called the Trizonesea Song. And this is written by a jokester from Cologne. So Alia, our producer, is from Cologne. This
46:01 Dominic Sandbrook? guy's from Cologne too. And he was called Carl Burbauer.
46:03 Tom Holland? A German jokester.
46:05 Dominic Sandbrook? German funster. He wrote it for the Cologne Carnival at the end of 1948. And the great joke here is that with Germany having been divided into different parts, West Germany is made up of three of these three zones. And so they all live in this made up Trizonesea.
46:22 Tom Holland? Oh yeah, very good.
46:24 Dominic Sandbrook? And the chorus, it's the most West German thing imaginable. So when I picture West Germany, I picture people in a beer hall in 1972, laughing and slapping their thighs as they, you know, as they turn out Audis and BMWs. In my imagination, they're singing this, because this is the song. We are the natives of Trizonesea. Heide, schimmler, schimmler, schimmler bum. We have maidens with fiery wild natures. Heide, schimmler, schimmler, schimmler bum. We may not be cannibals, but we kiss all the better for it. We are the natives of Trizonesea. Heide, schimmler, schimmler, schimmler bum.
47:02 Tom Holland? Does it have a comedy tune?
47:04 Dominic Sandbrook? Undoubtedly. Surely an umper band. That's what it is, I would imagine.
47:08 Tom Holland? Yeah.
47:08 Dominic Sandbrook? Now, this song starts as a joke and actually people start to, they think it's serious and they start playing it seriously.
47:15 Tom Holland? I mean, Callum says quite correctly that it would win Eurovision.
47:18 Dominic Sandbrook? It totally would win Eurovision. It's a very seventies Eurovision though, I think.
47:21 Tom Holland? Yeah, yeah. Banger, banger, boom.
47:24 Dominic Sandbrook? Actually, so they hosted a cycle race in Cologne, Keln, in 1949 and this was played as a German, and a lot of German politicians just said, this is such, I mean, we've disgraced ourselves recently in multiple ways.
47:41 Tom Holland? Yes, with the whole fascism thing.
47:42 Dominic Sandbrook? With the Nazism business, but this is, this is almost as bad. This is terrible.
47:46 Tom Holland? This is even worse.
47:48 Dominic Sandbrook? And the Chancellor of West Germany, Konrad Adenauer, who was a former mayor of Cologne, so he basically had, you know, this was personal for him. He gave a press conference in April 1950 and he said to the press, "Several Belgian military personnel were present in uniform and eventually the national anthems were played. The band struck up this lovely carnival song. Numerous Belgian soldiers stood up and saluted, believing it to be the national anthem." And Adenauer said, "This is shaming for Germany. Like, come on, bring back the Song of the Germans. This is nonsense. This Shimmler, Shimmler, Shimmler bum business." And actually, polls showed that Adenauer spoke for the majority. So seven out of 10 people in the early 50s said, "Come on, we want the old one back."
48:31 Dominic Sandbrook? The problem though was that the president of Germany was a guy called Theodore Hoist and he was a liberal free democrat and he said, "No way. It's a Nazi, that's a Nazi song. You can't have that back." And he actually commissioned his own rival song called "Him to Germany" by a Protestant hymn writer, which was very dull. "Land of faith, German land, land of fathers and heirs, land of faith, German land." It just goes on and on like that. And that never caught on. Adenauer campaigned and campaigned for the Song of the Germans. He used to get people to sing it at rallies, which was very controversial. And finally, after a massive standoff, he wrote to this bloke Hoist, the president. He said, "This has gone on much too long. I'm sick of this now. I am formally, officially
49:14 Dominic Sandbrook? asking you, approve das Lied der Deutschen as our national anthem." And Hoist, the president, cracked and he said, "All right, fine. As long as we can sing only the third verse, not the first two." It's often thought the first two are banned. They're not banned, actually. It's a convention that you don't, you know, it starts as a convention that you, that you don't sing them.
49:36 Tom Holland? So by this point, they're worried about the sexism angle as well as the whole.
49:40 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, I think so.
49:40 Tom Holland? Kind of conquering people, misinterpretation.
49:43 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, the sort of ha, ha, ha, German wine and women and song.
49:46 Tom Holland? Yeah.
49:46 Dominic Sandbrook? Think wine, women and song, if you're a woman, it's kind of, are you going to sing that with joy? I mean, surely not. At the time, when the news got out that they were adopting the old anthem, a lot of the foreign press, you can imagine what people made of this in our own dear country. They were displeased. They said, oh, the Germans, they haven't changed.
50:03 Tom Holland? They're back at it again.
50:04 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah. First, you know, one minute they're bringing back the old anthem, the next they're marching into Poland.
50:08 Tom Holland? Yeah.
50:09 Dominic Sandbrook? And the first big flashpoint, actually, since this is a series tied to the World Cup, it comes at the World Cup. So some people may remember this from when we did a series about the history of the World Cup tournament back in 2022. The World Cup was held in Switzerland in 1954, and the big favourites were Hungary, who hadn't lost for 32 games. They played West Germany in the final. This was the first exhibition of the Germans' irritating habit of making implausible comebacks from the brink of defeat. The Hungarians went 2-0 up after eight minutes and the Germans came back to win 3-2. And this was a massive moment in the history, cultural history of West Germany. The historian Joachim Fest calls it the true birth of the country, no less.
50:53 Dominic Sandbrook? And when the German captain Fritz Walther went up to collect the World Cup trophy, a Swiss band starts playing the German national anthem. And the German fans in the crowd, who had been drinking, of course, start to sing the first verse, Deutschland über alles.
51:11 Tom Holland? Oh, yeah, the menacing one.
51:13 Dominic Sandbrook? And it is said that, now this is very much a sort of ancient history, it is said that Swiss radio was so shocked, they cut the broadcast. I don't know whether that's actually true, because that's only, the only source for that is football journalism written in the 1990s.
51:31 Tom Holland? Or from the Swiss, perhaps, trying to pretend that they were braver in standing up for the Germans than they actually were.
51:36 Dominic Sandbrook? The Swiss would never do that. Have the Swiss any, any history of doing that? Surely, surely not. Anyway, the fact that they've been singing the wrong words, the, the old words, is reported in the world's press. And what is then worse? The president of the German Football Association, Piko Bauens, who was a former member of the Nazi Party, gave a celebratory speech in a Munich beer hall, I mean, Jesus, all the places to give a celebratory speech, and he said, brilliant, we've won the World Cup, our players were inspired by Wotan and Thor and all this. And the West German president, we've already met, Theodore Hoys, he was appalled by this. And actually, at the official
52:18 Dominic Sandbrook? public celebrations at the Olympic Stadium, which were attended by 80,000 people in Berlin, West Berlin, he publicly reprimanded the head of the German FA. And then he said, he read out the third verse of the anthem, Einig, Haid und Recht und Freiheit, and he said, this is our anthem, I want the whole stadium to sing it.
52:38 Tom Holland? And do they sing it?
52:39 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, which they did.
52:40 Tom Holland? Because that's always risky, asking
52:42 Dominic Sandbrook? I know.
52:43 Tom Holland? You know, a load of football fans to sing a particular song. I mean, you're kind of asking for trouble.
52:47 Dominic Sandbrook? And never, ever, anyone who's been to a football match knows that asking the crowd to do anything never, ever works. Now, I'll tell you who's watching this with glee. That is West Germany's neighbours in East Germany.
53:01 Tom Holland? Of course they would be, wouldn't they?
53:02 Dominic Sandbrook? Because the East Germans have always said, the Federal Republic, West Germany, is basically the Third Reich and a cuddlier guise. And they say, well, this is the proof. So one paper in East Berlin said, oh, well, our neighbours have let the cat out of the bag, they're just the Nazis. When fascists start singing Deutschland über alles and the Horst Wessel song, that has nothing to do with sport, but to do with death.
53:26 Tom Holland? But they're not singing the Horst Wessel song.
53:27 Dominic Sandbrook? No, I think that's untrue.
53:28 Tom Holland? That's a massive exaggeration.
53:29 Dominic Sandbrook? That's a massive exaggeration. It's very unfair. They didn't sing the Horst Wessel song at all.
53:33 Tom Holland? And I mean, unless the head of the German FA was doing it in his beer hall, when he wasn't toasting Wotan out of his skull, no doubt.
53:40 Dominic Sandbrook? That would definitely have been reported if he had. I mean, it would have been so punchy for them to have sung the Horst Wessel song after winning the World Cup in the 50s. And they didn't do it. I mean, I want to stress, they didn't do it. Now, of course, the East Germans have a different song at this point. They have adopted a new anthem with none of the shilly-shallying in democratic, in weak democratic, West Germany. This is the great positive, Tom, of living in a totalitarian dictatorship. You can decide instantly. So within three days of the foundation of East Germany in October 1949, the president, who was a Stalinist called Wilhelm Peek, he set the ball rolling. He commissioned a text from somebody he'd known in exile in Moscow,
54:22 Dominic Sandbrook? who was an avant-garde poet. There's a lot of poets in this. Johannes Becker.
54:27 Tom Holland? No relation to Boris?
54:28 Dominic Sandbrook? No relation to Boris. And the title of the new anthem was Aufgestanden aus Ruinen. And the opening lines in English, "From the ruins newly risen to the future turned we stand. Let us serve your welfare truly, Germany, our fatherland."
54:45 Tom Holland? I mean, that's not kind of overtly communist, is it?
54:49 Dominic Sandbrook? No, well, we'll come to this. The lyrics are not overtly communist. And actually, what's really interesting, just before we get to the lyrics, the tune is compatible with Haydn's tune.
55:00 Tom Holland? Oh.
55:00 Dominic Sandbrook? You could sing it to the old tune.
55:03 Tom Holland? They don't, though.
55:04 Dominic Sandbrook? They don't. They commissioned competing tunes by two guys who sang them. They put on performances at the Cultural Workers' Club in East Berlin, and the Politburo voted.
55:17 Tom Holland? So kind of communist Eurovision.
55:20 Dominic Sandbrook? Communist Eurovision. And they voted for a tune by a guy called Hans Eisler. Eisler was a communist of very long standing. He'd been a member since he was 14. He'd been exiled. This is a great, great story, actually. The guy who wrote the East German anthem had been exiled to the United States during the Third Reich. He was accused, when he was in America, of being a Soviet agent.
55:43 Tom Holland? Was he?
55:44 Dominic Sandbrook? And sort of McCarthyism. I think he probably a bit was because he was a communist.
55:48 Tom Holland? Probably was a bit.
55:49 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, he was a Stalinist. They called him, the American press called him, "The Karl Marx of Music."
55:55 Tom Holland? I like that. Surely that's Billy Bragg, isn't it?
55:59 Dominic Sandbrook? He was put on a Hollywood blacklist and he was deported.
56:03 Tom Holland? Well, he's a communist. Of course he was put on a Hollywood blacklist.
56:06 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, but deported is harsh.
56:08 Tom Holland? I mean, he literally was a communist.
56:09 Dominic Sandbrook? He literally was a communist. You're right. He was deported in 1948. Right. That's the debit side. On the credit side, I'm just going to absolutely pin my colours to the mast. My East German colours. I think his anthem, the East German anthem, is an absolute all time banger. And for me, and I know you'll say I hate Britain, but I'm just gonna, I think there's only one better anthem and that's the anthem of the Soviet Union. I think they are brilliant anthems.
56:36 Tom Holland? Madness. You do hate Britain.
56:38 Dominic Sandbrook? So a couple of interesting things about the anthem. First of all, Eisler said, I've written it as a humanistic anthem. Nothing jazzy, nothing military.
56:46 Tom Holland? And nothing about mountains, lakes or anything like that.
56:48 Dominic Sandbrook? Not really, no. There were allegations that he ripped it off from an Austrian pop song from the 1930s. And actually, the Austrian bloke took the case to the United Nations Copyright Commission, but he didn't win.
57:01 Tom Holland? And can I just ask, what is the Austrian anthem by this point? Is it still the Haydn one or have they moved on from that?
57:07 Dominic Sandbrook? No. So they had the Haydn tune right up to the Angelus, but then they dropped it when Austria was reborn in the 1940s. And they adopted a very boring anthem called Land der Berge, Land am Stronnma. Land of the Peaks, Land by the Stream. So one of the generic geographical anthems.
57:26 Tom Holland? What a falling off was there.
57:27 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, exactly. Disappointing from the Austrians. But the other interesting thing about the East German anthem is it was designed not as the anthem of East Germany, but as the anthem of all Germany.
57:37 Tom Holland? Oh, right.
57:38 Dominic Sandbrook? Because at this point, the East Germans claim basically all Germany. And so the first verse explicitly mentions Deutschland einig Vaterland.
57:49 Tom Holland? You know, I would love to hear this at the end of the episode.
57:52 Dominic Sandbrook? We will play it at the end of the episode because it is such a banger. Deutschland a united fatherland.
57:57 Tom Holland? This is for Dominic Sandbrook, his favourite song.
58:01 Dominic Sandbrook? My desert island disc selection.
58:03 Tom Holland? Which one's it to be?
58:04 Dominic Sandbrook? Always the East German anthem, surely. There's nothing communist about the lyrics yet. You were right about that. So there's nothing about workers, there's nothing about peasants, that the word socialism never appears. There's nothing about class struggle. It's all kind of the shining sun, youth, peace, things that I stand for, Tom.
58:20 Tom Holland? Yeah, no wonder you love it.
58:22 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, German youngsters laughing in the sunshine. That's what I'm all about. And actually. It was not controversial at the time. So this is a very unusual example of a national anthem that didn't provoke any controversy. The DDR, the German, East German authorities, made a great effort to push it. They played it in public, they put up banners with the lyrics. They made children sing it in school. But there's a historian, a German historian called Heike Amos. And she's looked into this and she says all the evidence and party reports and stuff. Is that, you know, when people reported about, they said, people actually love this anthem. They can't get enough of it. It becomes a part of, an integral part of life in East Germany.
59:02 Tom Holland? And a much loved part of it.
59:04 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
59:04 Tom Holland? Like a Travant.
59:06 Dominic Sandbrook? Like a state sponsored week's holiday in some sand dunes.
59:09 Tom Holland? On the Baltic.
59:10 Dominic Sandbrook? While the Stasi watch you from behind a load of reeds.
59:14 Tom Holland? That's, that's less loved, isn't it?
59:16 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah. So in East Germany, you would do a ceremony when you were 14. And this is when you became an adult and got your identity papers and pledged yourself towards the defence of socialism. It was called the Jugendweih, Youth Consecration Ceremony. And you would have to sing all three verses of the East German anthem. So I would have enjoyed that. I would have very much enjoyed it. Anyway, there is a twist in the late 60s. After the building of the Berlin Wall, it is obvious that East Germany's ambitions to become all Germany are going to be frustrated. Basically because East Germany is terrible and everyone's trying to escape. And then in the early 70s, both Germanies are admitted to the United Nations as separate states.
1:00:00 Dominic Sandbrook? And so about this point, the East Germans start to discourage people from singing this great anthem. Because they don't want people to think about Deutschland, einig Vaterland, a united fatherland. Actually, what they're trying to do now in the 70s is to tell people, you know, the idea of a united Germany was always mad. East Germany has always been different. West Germany is full of Catholics. We've always been Protestant and Lutheran. We have our own separate traditions. We have our own cultural identity. Let's stop singing this song about a united fatherland. So madly, they now have a situation where you do the anthem at school, you stand for it, it plays, but you are discouraged from singing.
1:00:41 Tom Holland? Oh, so they don't just replace it and come up with new lyrics or something?
1:00:44 Dominic Sandbrook? No, which they should have done. I mean, why not just change the words? I suppose because changing the words would mean some sort of admission that they'd been wrong, which they don't want to do.
1:00:52 Tom Holland? Hmm. Yeah.
1:00:54 Dominic Sandbrook? So anyway, this is the position all the way through to the fall of the Berlin Wall. There are two anthems. There's Song of the Germans in the West. There's Alferstand und Ausruinen in the East. Then the Berlin Wall falls. The two Germans are going to be reunited. And the question is, which anthem are they going to pick?
1:01:11 Tom Holland? Well, it's obvious, isn't it? I mean, they'll go with the West German one because the West German one's basically swallowing it.
1:01:15 Dominic Sandbrook? No, it's not obvious. So first of all, the Song of the Germans has been massively controversial all the way through in West Germany. Polls in the seventies and the eighties found that sort of lefty West Germans didn't like it. They said it's reactionary. It's a relic of Nazism. You know, if you're sort of Bader Meinhof adjacent.
1:01:37 Tom Holland? Yeah.
1:01:37 Dominic Sandbrook? You're not a fan of this anthem.
1:01:38 Tom Holland? You have those kind of stickers with the smiley sun that's against nuclear power.
1:01:42 Dominic Sandbrook? Completely. You're going on demonstrations against Pershing missiles and you hate Ronald Reagan.
1:01:48 Tom Holland? Ninety-nine red balloons.
1:01:50 Dominic Sandbrook? Precisely. Meanwhile, on the right of West German politics, people, Christian Democrat politicians keep trying to sneak the old words back in. Deutschland über alles. They keep trying to get that first verse in. They love that first verse.
1:02:06 Tom Holland? Like Helmut Kohl trying to slip down another pig's knuckles.
1:02:10 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly. So every now and again, and it's always, but this always happens in Baden-Württemberg. Every now and again, Baden-Württemberg, there'll be a controversy because it'll turn out that some local politician has been trying to get schools to sing the first verse of the anthem. And meanwhile, you know, anti-nuclear green campaigners say he should be tarred and feathered in, you know, as punishment. So there's that. Meanwhile, there's the issue that 17 million East Germans have been brought up to believe that the Song of the Germans is an evil capitalist relic of, you know, Nazism and militarism and stuff. So.
1:02:48 Dominic Sandbrook? The last Prime Minister of East Germany, who was Lothar de Mezier, suggested a compromise. He said, well, do you know what? We can use our lyrics with your tune. Why don't we have Haydn's tune and the East German lyrics?
1:03:06 Tom Holland? Yeah.
1:03:06 Dominic Sandbrook? I mean, that's quite a neat idea.
1:03:08 Tom Holland? It is a neat idea and it's a kind of prefiguring of what we're going to be talking about in our last episode about South Africa.
1:03:15 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
1:03:15 Tom Holland? Where there are similar agonised debates and actually a very effective compromise has arrived.
1:03:21 Dominic Sandbrook? Very good compromise, exactly. And the West Germans, Helmut Kohl, roused, you know, lifts himself from the
1:03:29 Tom Holland? The gravy.
1:03:31 Dominic Sandbrook? To say, no way, he says, no way. These are the lyrics of a, you know, a cruel dictatorship. We're never going to have the lyrics that were sung by the Stasi and the people who built the Berlin Wall. You can forget your lyrics. So at this point, Germany's intellectuals say, well, there is another song. And this is the song that we alluded to right at the beginning, but you said your friend likes, but we haven't mentioned. And this is a song written by Bertolt Brecht, by one of Germany's best known playwrights, one of Germany's best known 20th century intellectuals. Brecht in the 1950s wrote this and it's called the Kinderhimne, the Children's Anthem.
1:04:10 Dominic Sandbrook? And again, it's a sort of compromise because he wrote it in response to Adenauer's decision to bring back the old anthem in West Germany. And he had it set to music by the bloke who wrote the music, Eisler, the Karl Marx of music for East Germany. So if you look it up online, Brecht's Children's Anthem, you can see A, why people on the left love it. And why everybody else thinks it's mad, because basically it's massively self-flagellating. So the second verse explicitly says, our great hope is that other countries will no longer recoil from us in horror at our crimes.
1:04:48 Tom Holland? I mean, we could have that. I may, a lot of countries could have that.
1:04:52 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, I think no country, it's very unusual to have a national anthem in which you flagellate yourselves.
1:04:58 Dominic Sandbrook? And the third verse says explicitly, und nicht über, nicht unter, an den Wülken wollen wir sein. And not over and not under other nations will we be.
1:05:11 Tom Holland? But you know my favourite lines from it?
1:05:13 Dominic Sandbrook? Go on.
1:05:14 Tom Holland? It may seem dearest to us, just as other people's countries seem dearest to them. I mean, that, those are banging lyrics.
1:05:23 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, yeah.
1:05:25 Tom Holland? I mean, imagine that at the World Cup. Someone has a massive, massively bombastic anthem. And then the Germans smugly sing, well, you know.
1:05:35 Dominic Sandbrook? We're no better than anybody else.
1:05:36 Tom Holland? Yeah, it may seem dearest to us, but doesn't everyone think that?
1:05:40 Dominic Sandbrook? You're putting Paraguay or somebody who have an incredibly strutting anthem about the glories of a Suncean. And then the Germans sing, you know, we're very sorry we behaved poorly. Please don't record from us in horror anymore. The end result of all this is they end up sticking with the, the Weimar anthem. That's the song of the Germans, third verse, Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit. So unity and right and freedom. And this becomes basically the motto of the reunited Germany. Those words, Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit, they are printed on the belt buckles today of German soldiers. They are printed, they are engraved on the edge of every two euro coin that is minted in Germany.
1:06:23 Dominic Sandbrook? But as, you know, as with the first two anthems that we talked about, the arguments just do not go away. So in the late 1990s, the Green Party in Germany said, we've made a massive mistake. We should have Brecht's anthem after all. We should have the flagellating anthem. We cannot go on having a national anthem whose first verse is sung by the radical right and whose third verse is sung by conservatives. An anthem sung by conservatives, the horror. People still make this case today. But since this is a World Cup associated podcast, we'll just end with the 2006 World Cup, because that, I think, is the key moment for Germany and its embrace of its anthem.
1:07:04 Dominic Sandbrook? This was the first time that a united Germany had hosted the World Cup, and there was a big debate before the tournament about the anthem. And lots of commentators said, the problem we have is that, with the eyes of the world will be honest, lots of people will not be singing the anthem. Der Spiegel, very prestigious German paper, said, "A historic opportunity was missed back in the 50s because these verses no longer work today. Anyone who sings unity and justice and freedom knows that there are also two other undesirable verses, and in today's Germany, they sound about as modern as a teacher with a cane in a high school." Anyway, Der Spiegel was wrong, because actually loads of Germans did sing the anthem,
1:07:46 Dominic Sandbrook? and nobody complained at all. And the German broadcaster Deutsche Velle said after the tournament, "The sight of the German team, their arms around one another as Deutschland lebt, another way of putting the Song of the Germans, as the Germany song played, was an emotional moment for many of us. It seems that football has done what politics could never do, give a voice to a generation to whom patriotism is not a dirty word. And maybe it's okay to be a German and proud of it after all."
1:08:12 Tom Holland? Yeah. I mean, the biggest controversy of that World Cup was all the wags going shopping.
1:08:17 Dominic Sandbrook? In Baden-Baden.
1:08:18 Tom Holland? And distracting our brave boys from more important things like scoring penalties.
1:08:23 Dominic Sandbrook? More bad behaviour in Baden-Württemberg. Everything that's terrible happens there.
1:08:27 Tom Holland? Exactly. It all goes back to that, doesn't it?
1:08:30 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, agreed. The wags let themselves down in that World Cup.
1:08:32 Tom Holland? I don't think they did. I mean, I enjoyed it. Posh spice.
1:08:35 Dominic Sandbrook? But England should have won that World Cup, Tom. We had a good team. We had a really good team. And we just played abysmally.
1:08:41 Tom Holland? The golden generation.
1:08:43 Dominic Sandbrook? But as for the anthems, my personal view is, I think it's a good anthem, the German anthem.
1:08:47 Tom Holland? Yeah, I like it.
1:08:48 Dominic Sandbrook? I think if I was German, I would sing it with great enthusiasm.
1:08:51 Tom Holland? I mean, let's bear in mind, it's written by a guy who loved Nelson.
1:08:55 Dominic Sandbrook? What's not to like?
1:08:56 Tom Holland? I think that's either problem.
1:08:59 Dominic Sandbrook? Just to remind people, next time, the Netherlands, and then next week, Brazil and South Africa. But Tom, it would be remiss of us not to say at the very end that although the German anthem is good...
1:09:13 Tom Holland? It's not as good as East German, okay?
1:09:15 Dominic Sandbrook? It's not as good as what they could have had.
1:09:17 Tom Holland? So ladies and gentlemen, here it is, Dominic Sandbrook's Desert Island Disc. Take it away, Callum.
1:09:29 Speaker 05 Auf Erstanden, auf Zuhiege, und wir zu Gott zugewahrt. Lass uns wir zum Guten liegen, Deutschland, mein Vaterland. Kein Traum, kein Festes singen, und wir singen sicher ein. Wenn es uns noch gelingen, dass die Sonne schwingt, über Deutschland scheint,
1:10:10 Speaker 05 über Deutschland scheint. Glück und Frieden seien erschienen, Deutschland, unser Vaterland. Alle Welt sieht sich nach Frieden, als die Welt an eurem Arm. Wenn wir blühen, wir fliehen, statt wir fliehen, wir fliehen. Lass das Licht des Friedens scheinen, lass die Leute tot am Wind,
1:10:53 Speaker 05 ihren Sohn herein, über Sohn herein. Lass uns blühen, lass uns fliehen, der Wunsch doch den Weg zu fahren. Und wir alle, Vaterland, sei ein feines Licht.
1:11:55 Tom Holland? Hello everybody. Now, as those of you who are good children will know, here in Britain, on the 21st of June, it's Father's Day.
1:12:04 Dominic Sandbrook? But not just here in Britain. It's also Father's Day on the 21st of June in the United States, in Canada, and in the Republic of Ireland. So those are four countries that are united by dads who love to listen to The Rest Is History.
1:12:21 Tom Holland? And that is why we are offering an amazing 25% Father's Day discount on the subscription price to The Rest Is History Club, because we are all heart.
1:12:36 Dominic Sandbrook? So treat the Peter the Great in your own life this Father's Day to early access to full series. You get say, early access that you get that with a membership. You get bonus episodes, you get ad-free listening, you get access to tickets for live shows. Basically, you get an entire host of supplementary benefits. And that, I think, is what a lot of patriarchs want, isn't it?
1:12:59 Tom Holland? It absolutely is, because I think nothing says Happy Father's Day quite like the chance to listen to six solid hours, ad-free, about the First World War.
1:13:12 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, that's what most fathers want. So head to therestishistory.com and click on the word Gifts. And that gift, membership of our much-loved Rest Is History Club, will land straight in your father's inbox on Father's Day itself.
1:13:32 Tom Holland? So if you want to give the best Father's Day gift that's ever been in history, ever...
1:13:41 Tom Holland? And we say this as the presenters of the rest is history, you know what to do.
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