Pod Insights The Rest Is History 638. Revolution in Iran: The Hostage Crisis (Part 3) About this episode Why and how was the American Embassy stormed in 1979, at the height of the Iranian Revolution? Did America respond when large numbers of American civil servants were taken hostage? And, would a science fiction film called Argo save the only 6 Americans able to escape…?
Join Dominic and Tom, as they discuss the defining event of the Iranian Revolution: the invasion of the American Embassy on the 4th of November 1979, when American citizens were taken hostage in Tehran…
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Transcript 13,942 words · 3 speakers
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0:49 Dominic Sandbrook? This episode is brought to you by the Gates Foundation. We have touched on the fall of the Roman Empire a few times on this show, haven't we? But what our listeners may not know is that among the causes that historians talk about, it's not just barbarian invasions. There's also talk of a disease which people call Roman fever, which I believe we know now as malaria.
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1:50 Tom Holland? This episode is supported by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Now, history's biggest leaps started as hard questions that people didn't want asked.
2:02 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, there's a classic example of that at the end of the 15th century. And the hard question in particular was, what is out there beyond the Atlantic Ocean to the world? And as you will know, the man who found the answer to that question was the explorer Christopher Columbus. And he realises, or rather, everybody else realises, that there is a vast continent out there. And it is, of course, the Americas. So you know, Anthropic knows the importance of questions. And it's why Anthropic is founded on one hard question above all. How can we ensure that the AI revolution really goes well for ordinary people?
2:32 Tom Holland? So they asked over a hundred thousand people and what came back wasn't just fear, there was hope as well. People wanted to know, will cancer ever be cured? Can kids have a better future? It turns out that there is hope in hard questions.
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2:55 Tom Holland? Hello, everyone, and we have some unbelievably exciting news for you all.
3:00 Dominic Sandbrook? Tom, if anything, you are underselling it because this is truly spectacular. On the 4th and 5th of July this year, we are going to be hosting the inaugural Rest is History Festival at of all places, Hampton Court Palace. And crucially, this is just for the people who mean most to us, that is, the members of the Rest is History Club. Tom, am I right?
3:23 Tom Holland? You are so right, Dominic. So if you want to access tickets for the festival, then you will need to become a member of the Rest is History Club, which is so easy to do. All you have to do is go to therestishistory.com and it's a matter of seconds.
3:37 Dominic Sandbrook? Okay, so remember, by becoming a member of the Rest is History Club, you will be able to enter that much prized ballot for tickets to this thrilling festival. But of course, on top of that, you'll get all our episodes ad free. You will get early access to our epic series, you will get weekly bonus episodes, you will get access to our exciting new exclusive mini-series. Most of all, you'll get an entree to our much-loved chat community and many more such exciting benefits.
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4:38 Dominic Sandbrook? It is going to be the most extraordinary weekend. There'll be talks, there will be thrilling special guests, there will be historically themed music, there'll be all kinds of treats, there'll be all kinds of action, there might even be some battles. But above all, it'll be a time for friendship, to get to know your fellow members and to get to know Tom and me in a very, very special place, Hampton Court Palace.
5:03 Tom Holland? And I know that I speak for Dominic as well as for myself when I say, we cannot wait to see you there.
5:22 Tom Holland? Like in the name of God, the Muslims were compassionate. We Muslim students, followers of Imam Khomeini, have occupied the espionage embassy of America in protest against the ploys of the imperialists and the Zionists. We announce our protest to the world, a protest against America for granting asylum and employing the criminal Shah while it has its hands in the blood of like tens of thousands of women and men in this country. So we like, we protest against America for creating a malignant atmosphere of biased and monopolised propaganda
6:03 Tom Holland? and for supporting and recruiting counter revolutionary agents against the Islamic Revolution of Iran. And finally, for its undermining and its destructive role in the face of the struggle of the peoples for freedom from the chains of imperialism, wherein thousands of revolutionary and faithful people have been slaughtered. So that, of course, was a student, and it was a female student, and she was phoning
6:43 Tom Holland? in to a Tehran radio station on the afternoon of Sunday, the 4th of November, 1979, and she was speaking on behalf of a radical student group called themselves the Muslim Students Following the Line of the Imam. And what had prompted this call was a very dramatic development in the ongoing momentum of the Islamic Revolution in Iran, because a few hours earlier, several hundred Iranian students had broken into the United States Embassy compound in downtown Tehran. Their plan was, I mean, it's what students do all the time, they wanted to do a brief
7:26 Tom Holland? kind of symbolic occupation, but it very rapidly turned into something much, much more serious with seismic geopolitical implications. Because within a few days, they had taken 66 Americans hostage, including Marine Guards, CIA officers and operatives, and US diplomats. And Dominic, this crisis escalated very, very rapidly and would become one of the most dramatic humiliations in the whole of American history.
8:09 Dominic Sandbrook? Definitely, yes. So hello, everybody. And what an extraordinary reading that was. At one point, I thought you might be accused of punching down against female students. And then it occurred to me that your female student voice is actually just a little bit along from your Mick Jagger voice.
8:25 Dominic Sandbrook? Anyway, yes, this is an extraordinary story. It's a defining episode in the Iranian revolution and it's an absolutely catastrophic moment for Jimmy Carter. Poor old Jimmy Carter, he's been through the wringer in the rest is history. I mean, he was humiliated when he appeared in our episode about Love Island. So people may remember he was a contestant on historical Love Island. And who did he end up with?
8:48 Tom Holland? Can't remember. I don't think it was a good match, was it?
8:51 Dominic Sandbrook? No, it wasn't. I think, was he dumped by Marcia Williams for Judas Iscariot?
8:55 Tom Holland? Yeah.
8:56 Dominic Sandbrook? I think something like that happened. He's had a terrible time because last week, he collapsed on a run, watched by you at the time, remember?
9:04 Tom Holland? Yes.
9:04 Dominic Sandbrook? He was attacked by a killer rabbit. He was upbraided by us for not pursuing peanut diplomacy with the Ayatollahs.
9:14 Tom Holland? I mean, it's such an open goal.
9:16 Dominic Sandbrook? And now he's paying the price for his folly. Because this week, we are telling the story of the seizure of the US Embassy, the ordeal of the hostages and Carter's absolutely disastrous attempt to rescue them. And we will be welcoming back in the next episode, an old friend and associate of the rest is history.
9:32 Tom Holland? Oh.
9:33 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, Ronald Reagan will be returning to the show. Very exciting times. So let's remind ourselves where we got to. So there've been months of street protests, rather like the street protests, Tom, that we are witnessing right now. And I know you're, you're keen, aren't you, to bring out the extraordinary resonances between the late 1970s and the 2020s?
9:53 Tom Holland? Yeah. So we're recording this on the 9th of January and who knows what may have happened by the time you get to listen to this.
9:58 Dominic Sandbrook? So after street protests, the last Shah, Mohammed Rizal Pahlavi, had fled Iran on the 16th of January, 1979. 16 days later, the Ayatollah, Rouhollah Khomeini, returned. This extraordinary moment when he returns to the airport. And then there's a period of total chaos, street battles and paramilitary violence and whatnot. But by the spring of 1979, it's pretty clear the Ayatollah has the initiative. Paramilitres who associate themselves with him control the streets. There's been a referendum and a massive majority for an Islamic republic. There are Sharia courts that are trying and executing former Shah. Loyalists.
10:35 Tom Holland? And Dominic, the, it's not yet institutionalised, is it? But there is increasing pressure on women to start bailing, covering their hair, going into hijab.
10:44 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, women's rights and other symbols of westernisation have been put into reverse, really some of them have. And there is still a power struggle going on. So there is an interim government, relatively moderate, under this guy Mehdi Barzeghan.
10:59 Tom Holland? So he's weedy beard and moustache.
11:01 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, he's a sort of intellectual goatee beard and moustache. But power is increasingly concentrated in the hands of people with much more luxuriant beards. Huge beards. Who are the counsel of the Islamic Revolution, and this is dominated by clerics who associate themselves with Khomeini. What nobody knows at this point is where all this is going. It's a, it's a situation in great kind of fluidity and flux. So no one knows really what Khomeini wants. He has gone off to the holy city of Gom, which is where he'd been at the seminary. And he's sort of hunkered down there, praying and meditating and whatnot.
11:37 Tom Holland? Whatnot.
11:38 Dominic Sandbrook? And whatnot, yeah, there's a whatnot as well. I think he's writing, probably writing mystical poems, isn't he? Isn't that what he enjoys doing?
11:44 Tom Holland? I would imagine so.
11:45 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, he's thinking about poetry and that's nice. But what the Islamic revolutionary state under clerical guardianship will mean in practice remains very unclear. Because of this sense of uncertainty, there is a deep fear, even paranoia, among Khomeini's partisans that the forces of Satanism are going to strike back against their revolution. And it reminds me a lot of the French Revolution. So in the French Revolution, 1792, 1793, people were convinced that emigres and foreign agents were plotting against the revolution. And guess what? They were. They were right.
12:23 Tom Holland? I mean, I suppose also, we call it the Islamic Revolution, but the notion of overthrowing a king because he's a king is pretty alien to Islam. I mean, there's, isn't a precedent for this in Islamic history, but there is of course in European history. So there is a slight irony there that the process of institutionalising a republic.
12:42 Tom Holland? Is of necessity importing certain Western ideas?
12:45 Dominic Sandbrook? I guess it is, but also no one knows that the Republic will actually last, right? There's a lot of parley loyalists out there. The Shah is still out there, as we will discuss. You know, rather like in the French Revolution, people were worried that the king would strike back.
13:00 Tom Holland? Of course.
13:01 Dominic Sandbrook? This is what people are thinking right now. What is more, as in the French Revolution, the chaos in the capital has triggered revolts all over the country. So Iran, remember, is not a nation state. Iran is multi-ethnic. And in, for example, the southwestern province of Kuzistan, there has been a revolt by the Arab population. There are revolts all over Iran. And actually, that revolt in Kuzistan is the rebellion that inspires the takeover of the Iranian embassy by separatists in London in 1980. So this is the embassy siege that ended with the SAS storming the building. On top of this, there's a very tense relationship with Iran's neighbour, Iraq.
13:45 Dominic Sandbrook? Because Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi strongman, has been very alarmed by this talk of exporting the Islamic Revolution. Because, of course, he lives in a country, as we discussed, a majority Shiite population.
13:57 Tom Holland? And he is a Sunni.
13:58 Dominic Sandbrook? And he is a Sunni. So Saddam Hussein is thinking, hmm, maybe I should strike first and profit from Iran's fragmentation, which of course he will do, triggering the Iran-Iraq war.
14:09 Tom Holland? And that goes well.
14:10 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, for nobody. And finally, Khomeini and his supporters remember that in 1953, the British and the Americans had carried out a coup against Mohamed Mossadegh. And they're very worried that the Americans might be planning another coup.
14:24 Tom Holland? Well, they are, aren't they?
14:25 Dominic Sandbrook? And they are, yes.
14:26 Tom Holland? Was it Zbigniew Brzezinski?
14:28 Dominic Sandbrook? Zbigniew Brzezinski.
14:30 Tom Holland? He sent orders to the American ambassador.
14:33 Dominic Sandbrook? He's constantly ringing him up and saying, get that coup going. Come on, where's the coup? So, one of the students, Massimou Ebtikar, we quoted her before. As she said later on, "We were sure that foreign elements were actively involved in attempts to weaken and undermine our young republic."
14:49 Tom Holland? So French Revolution, isn't it?
14:50 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, it is very French Revolution, and as in the French Revolution, it's A, it is paranoid, but B, it's also true. They are trying to undermine the revolution. So, people like Massimou Ebtikar and other students, they come to focus on one place above all, and that's the US Embassy.
15:06 Tom Holland? This is the Tuileries of the Iranian Revolution.
15:09 Dominic Sandbrook? The den of spies, as they called it, the centre of counter-revolutionary intrigue. So, the US Embassy, to give people a sense of the place, because it's so important, it's a two-storey brick building. It was finished in 1951. It's in this kind of wooded compound. Americans used to say it looks just like a high school, and it kind of does when you look at photos of it. It looks like the high school in Stranger Things or something.
15:31 Tom Holland? Or The Simpsons.
15:32 Dominic Sandbrook? Or indeed The Simpsons, exactly. Or indeed any American TV series. So, because of the relationship with the Shah, the US diplomatic corps always knew the embassy might be a target. And actually, they were first attacked on Christmas Eve, 1978, before the Shah had even left. There was a crowd outside the compound, and they were repelled by US Marine Guards with tear gas and by an Iranian army unit, then loyal to the Shah, which defended the US Embassy. Then, after the Shah has gone and the Ayatollah has returned, there is a second attack on the 14th of February, 1979. So this is in the context of the sort of chaos in the streets, the street battles after Khomeini's return. And this was much more serious. So this time,
16:16 Dominic Sandbrook? the attack was led by Islamic militants with automatic weapons. At the time, Ambassador William Sullivan, people may remember him, he's a Serb, he has white bouffon hair, he's always arguing with the White House. He handled it really well. He said to the Marines, "Hold your fire, don't shoot back against these blokes. Retreat to the Chancery building, put down some tear gas, retreat behind this cloud of tear gas." The attackers got through the gates, but Sullivan himself went to meet them, and he kept them talking until intermediaries could arrive, sent by Khomeini's Revolutionary Council.
16:50 Dominic Sandbrook? And Khomeini's men actually had a massive row with the attackers, said, what are you doing? Why are you here? No one told you to break in. They cleared the compound, and this will surprise some people. Khomeini sent a group of clerics a couple of days later to see Sullivan and to say, we're dreadfully sorry that this happened. If this happens again, you know, you have my personal assurance that I will help you. You know, let me know if this happens again. This is all from Sullivan's memoir, Mission to Iran, I think it's called. So the obvious question is, once this has happened a couple of times, why do the Americans not close the embassy?
17:26 Tom Holland? I suppose it's so important, isn't it, Iran? I mean, it's the fulcrum of its position in the Middle East.
17:31 Dominic Sandbrook? Of course. You're not going to run away, right?
17:33 Tom Holland? And especially if you've got the Ayatollah's personal guarantee that you'll be safe.
17:36 Dominic Sandbrook? And also, they want to keep talking to moderate element. They want to swing the government, you know, away from extremism. They want to keep talking to them.
17:43 Tom Holland? Of course, the moderate element. The one thing American diplomats love, it's a moderate element in an Islamic regime.
17:51 Dominic Sandbrook? But also, the CIA have listening posts on the border with the Soviet Union, on Iran's northern borders. They don't want to give them up, right? They're really important. Now, that said, the Americans are not complete idiots. So they start to wind things down at the embassy. By the spring of 1979, most American nationals had been flown out of Iran. And from about one and a half thousand people, there are now fewer than 100 people working at the embassy. So if you go to the compound in the middle of 1979, there's a handful of Marines. I mean, we're talking about a dozen, maybe, maybe between a dozen and 20 Marines.
18:26 Tom Holland? I mean, that's a hard posting, isn't it?
18:28 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, you don't really fancy that. There are about 80 local sort of armed men who've been sent by Iran's provisional government. But these blokes just spend a lot of time drinking and squabbling around themselves. So they're clearly not going to be much use in a fight. However, after February 1979, all the militant factions on the streets, they're more worried about fighting each other than they are fighting the Americans. So the Americans are kind of left alone. So a couple of months later, Sullivan is finally recalled to Washington. As we talked about before, Carter has been itching to sack him for months because he thinks he's insubordinate. The State Department do not rush to replace him. They say, look, the situation in Iran is so chaotic.
19:12 Dominic Sandbrook? We don't even know, you know, who's in charge. So we don't really know who we should send. We'll get this bloke's deputy, who's called Bruce Lengen. He can stay on as the caretaker, kind of head of mission, until we send out a proper ambassador later on.
19:28 Tom Holland? Dominic, can I just ask, if they had sent out an ambassador, would that have been an indication to the new Iranian regime that the United States recognised it as the legitimate government?
19:38 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, undoubtedly it would.
19:40 Tom Holland? So that would actually maybe have made a difference, do you think?
19:42 Dominic Sandbrook? Much better. So a lot of people, some people at least in the State Department, certainly in the US Embassy, including Bruce Lengen himself, thought, you should send another ambassador because that will send a signal to the Iranian regime. We accept you. We will work with you. We're going to find a way through this. But actually not sending an ambassador at all is a really bad sign.
20:01 Tom Holland? It's a snub.
20:01 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, it's seen as a bit of a snub. Sullivan gets back to Washington. The first thing he does when he gets back to Washington, he says to Cyrus Vance, who is the patrician, kind of Ivy League boarding school educated Secretary of State. Sullivan says to Cyrus Vance, I'd like to see you because I'm actually really worried about our embassy. He says, there is one thing that you could do that would be bound to provoke an attack. And that would be if you ever allowed the Shah of Iran into the United States.
20:31 Tom Holland? So that's his message. Whatever you do, don't allow the Shah of Iran into the United States. Whatever you do, whatever you do, do not do that.
20:40 Dominic Sandbrook? So let's get on to the Shah. The Shah, remember, left in January and the original plan was to him to go to this estate in Palm Springs that has been visited by Tom Holland, Walter Annenberg's estate. But the Shah has not done that. He has hung around and dallied in North Africa with his pal, President Sadat in Aswan in Egypt. And then he's gone to see another mate of his, King Hassan of Morocco in Marrakech. The Shah is now a very sickly, gaunt and miserable figure. He has seen the footage of Khomeini's return. And he was really shocked by it. He's gutted about what's happened to Iran. He can't believe it. Of course, he was so out of touch. And he's really disappointed. Now meanwhile, in Morocco, because of course, the Islamic Revolution
21:26 Dominic Sandbrook? has caught the world's imagination. And because the Ayatollahs have made it very clear they'd like to export the ideals of their revolution. King Hassan of Morocco thinks, I don't know that having the Shah here is a very good idea. I mean, there are Islamist groups in Morocco, you know, I don't want them all kicking off because the Shah's here. So by, after a few weeks, he says to the Shah, I'd really like it if you moved on now, you know, you've gone backstage, you're welcome. Now, the Shah at this point, this would be the point for him to go to California. However, the Americans have now slightly changed their mind. First of all, there were reports that the revolutionary committees in Iran have started arresting foreigners. But also, the National Security Council says to Carter, if we admit the Shah, it would
22:08 Dominic Sandbrook? mean, and I quote, "mass arrests of Americans in Tehran and almost certainly another attack on the embassy." Now, Jimmy Carter, people may recall, is an evangelical born-again Christian. So you would think he is a kindly man, a man of his word, who would want to honour his promise to the Shah, wouldn't you, Tom?
22:30 Tom Holland? Well, and, and also, he's, he's gone over to Tehran and toasted the Shah and said how he's his best mate and how he loves him.
22:38 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, correct.
22:39 Tom Holland? Very publicly.
22:40 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes. But do you know what? Jimmy Carter now shows a perhaps slightly less Christian side to, to his character. When they meet in Washington, he says, I think we should forget about the Shah, let's cut him loose, let him twist in the wind. And Brzezinski, who's the hard man, he's really shocked by this. And he says, "I think it would be repugnant to cancel our invitation. It would violate our loyalty to our friend." And Carter says, very curtly, "I don't want the Shah playing tennis in the United States while Americans in Tehran are kidnapped or killed."
23:12 Tom Holland? Well, it'd be very easy for Carter to stop the Shah playing tennis, wouldn't it? Because he doesn't put him on the booking list for the White House.
23:19 Dominic Sandbrook? Right, yeah. If there's anyone, it's funny, it's so revealing that Jimmy Carter reaches for that image.
23:28 Dominic Sandbrook? Right. So anyway, the Shah's now in a mess. Jimmy Carter doesn't want him. So where can he go? Now, remember, he has a house in our own beloved country.
23:35 Tom Holland? But the weather's terrible.
23:37 Dominic Sandbrook? But he said the weather was terrible. Now he gets that idea back. And Jim Callaghan, still Prime Minister, says, no, you're not coming. And then there's an election in Britain. And Margaret Thatcher, big fan of Shah, she also says no.
23:53 Tom Holland? I mean, she's the Iron Lady. She's not going to be swayed by obligations to a sick king, is she?
23:59 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, do you know what? She actually did. She actually felt really bad about it. But she was told, you know, security on the Shah's estate, which is just outside London, will be a nightmare. Like, we're not convinced. It'll be very difficult to protect this country estate from attackers. But also, we will put our own Britain's Embassy into Iran at risk.
24:18 Tom Holland? And they're right. Because actually, I mean, we know that American diplomats are going to be taken hostage. British diplomats are not. And in a sense, bearing in mind the notoriety of Britain in the Iranian demonology. I mean, that is a dog that doesn't bark in the night, isn't it?
24:33 Dominic Sandbrook? It is. Although there are massive protests outside the British Embassy, but it's not invaded.
24:37 Tom Holland? And they changed the street name, don't they, from Winston Churchill Avenue to Bobby Sands Avenue? And Bobby Sands is an IRA hunger striker.
24:45 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly, they do. So the Shah can't go to Britain. He goes off to the Bahamas in the end, and he gets a house on the beach. And he spends his time praying and reading the newspapers. And he rings up foreign diplomats to reminisce about the good old days, about, you know, food from Maxim's of Paris and Dom Perignon champagne and stuff.
25:02 Tom Holland? Great days.
25:03 Dominic Sandbrook? And then after that, he goes to Kenavaca in Mexico. And both of these bolt holes have been arranged by two American pals of his. So specifically, his great chum, Henry Kissinger, and Kissinger's mate.
25:18 Dominic Sandbrook? David Rockefeller of oil family fame, who is the president of the Chase Manhattan Bank.
25:23 Tom Holland? So useful friends.
25:24 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, good contacts. And Kissinger and Rockefeller take it upon themselves to be the Shah's great champions. And they think it's terrible that the United States has abandoned him. And all through 1979, Kissinger and Rockefeller are pestering the Carter administration. Allowing the Shah, you're letting America down. This is really poor. Come on.
25:43 Tom Holland? And does Carter respond to this in a tone of Christian obligation?
25:47 Dominic Sandbrook? Carter, Tabby, get your bleeping machine ready. Carter says, and I quote, "The Shah, I'm not going to welcome him when he has other places where he'll be safe." This is not what Jimmy Carter says when he's teaching a Sunday school in Plains, Georgia. Surely. Anyway, the decisive factor is the Shah's health. So basically, his doctors have been visiting him, his French doctors, and they can see that his cancer is spreading. He's losing weight, he looks terrible, he's turned yellow with jaundice, all of this. And eventually, David Rockefeller sends his own medical team to Mexico to inspect the Shah, and they go back to Washington and they report to the administration. And in October 1979, so the 19th of October, there's a meeting at the White House to discuss this.
26:32 Dominic Sandbrook? And Carter's aides say to him, "I think you should let him in. He's, you know, he's dying, you should definitely let him in." Cyrus Vance, the Secretary of State, says, "Common decency and humanity demand that we allow the Shah to have treatment in New York." He was our ally, he was our man. We can't abandon him now. Carter's chief of staff, Hamilton Jordan, a Georgian like Carter, he points out to the, to Carter, he says, "If the Shah dies in Mexico, Henry Kissinger will go around the world saying, 'First you caused his downfall and now you've killed him.'"
27:05 Tom Holland? That's a bit harsh, it's the cancer that kills him, surely.
27:07 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, but that is what Henry Kissinger would have said.
27:09 Tom Holland? Yeah, okay.
27:10 Dominic Sandbrook? So, you know, Hamilton Jordan is right. And Carter eventually gives in, but at the end of the meeting, Carter, and we've painted Carter as in some ways, you know, we've perhaps been a bit unfair to Jimmy Carter in some ways. Here, Jimmy Carter shows his shrewdness, because Jimmy Carter says, at the end of the meeting, "Does somebody have an answer as to what we would do if the diplomats in our embassy are taken hostage?"
27:32 Dominic Sandbrook? And there's a long silence and nobody says anything. And Carter says, I gather not. On that day, we will all sit here with long drawn white faces and we will realise that we have been had.
27:44 Tom Holland? So if he's alert to that, why doesn't he withdraw the diplomats before allowing the Shah in?
27:51 Dominic Sandbrook? That's a good question. Well, they don't want to withdraw their diplomats. They think it's so important to have diplomatic representation and keep talking to these fabled moderate elements, I think. If Carter ran away from Iran, he would be accused of completely losing Iran, I think. So he doesn't want to do that.
28:07 Tom Holland? Yeah, yeah, invidious situation.
28:09 Dominic Sandbrook? Anyway, he hasn't, he doesn't handle it well, as we will see. So three days later, the 22nd of October, the Shah and Empress Farah arrive in New York and they are rushed straight to the Cornell Medical Centre so that he can have emergency surgery. And there's no attempt really, everyone knows they can't keep this a secret. So even as the doctors are operating on the Shah, there are crowds outside the building chanting against him.
28:32 Tom Holland? And are these Iranian?
28:34 Dominic Sandbrook? Iranian students.
28:35 Tom Holland? Iranian students.
28:36 Dominic Sandbrook? So there were tens of thousands of Iranian students at American universities. You know, they tend to be anti Shah. And by this point, when they demonstrate against the Shah or whatever, they often, you know, get attacked by Americans or there's, there's scuffles on campuses and things like this. And which will worsen, of course, once the hostage crisis begins.
28:54 Tom Holland? But there are also lots of pro Shah Iranians in America.
28:57 Dominic Sandbrook? There are the exiles, so increasingly exile groups who've arrived in the court since 1978, settled in places like Florida and California, still exile communities of Iranians in America today. So in Tehran, when the US Embassy staff hear the Shah has arrived in New York.
29:13 Tom Holland? Oh, God.
29:14 Dominic Sandbrook? They're not happy. So Bruce Lengen, who is the acting ambassador, had already said to Washington, please do not do this. Do not do this. And if you are going to do it, clear it with the Iranian provisional government beforehand. Like, explain to them what you're doing, you know, try to smooth the ground. Please send a new ambassador to show that you accept the new regime. And please do something to arrange proper security for Americans in Tehran. And as throughout this story, too many people in Washington just don't listen to the signals they're getting from their embassy. But in the first few days, Lengen thinks, you know what, we might just get away with this. There is no attack on the embassy. There are marches, but by Iranian standards,
29:56 Dominic Sandbrook? the streets feel reasonably calm. So maybe things are going to be all right. What he doesn't know is that at Tehran's University of Technology, there are students who have been plotting for weeks to attack the embassy. Now, there are different groups of students who kind of claim credit for this. The name that comes up most often is a guy called Ibrahim Ashgad, who later on actually ended up being a reformist Iranian politician who was actually arrested in the 2000s.
30:23 Tom Holland? Oh, so a moderate element.
30:25 Dominic Sandbrook? Moderate element, but not in 1979. He was an engineering student. He was absolutely typical of the students who were very excited about Khomeini's return, see it as a chance for a new start, banishing the corruption and the frustrations of the 70s. And he meets up with some friends of his at a cafe in Tehran one day in the autumn. And they say, we would love to kind of demonstrate our, you know, it's classic student stuff. Let's make a stand, you know, let our voices be heard, all of this kind of thing.
30:53 Tom Holland? Strike at the imperialists.
30:54 Dominic Sandbrook? Strike at the imperialists. Why don't we break into the US embassy and from there, proclaim our message to the world. Brilliant idea. They meet up with students from other Tehran colleges and they form this group with the catchy name Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line. Love it. And their plan is they will occupy the embassy for a few hours, maybe a few days, and they will broadcast the message that you read out. We don't like the Shah, we don't like America, we don't like imperialism, you know, huzzah, huzzah, end of story.
31:27 Tom Holland? So it's a sit-in in exactly the way that sit-ins from 1968 onwards have operated in the West and presumably inspired by them.
31:34 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes. That's the funny thing, isn't it, about the Iranian revolution? That in some ways, you know, it was often described in the West as backward looking, as medieval, all this kind of thing. And yet it's very modern. And it's informed both by, you know, Shia tradition and also by the Ayatollah's radical vision, but also there's hints of the 1960s and 1968 in there too.
31:57 Tom Holland? Yeah. And that's what people on the left in the West, who are enthusiastic initially for the Iranian revolution are picking up on.
32:02 Dominic Sandbrook? That's what they liked, exactly. So now we come to the fateful day, Sunday, the 4th of November, 1979. It is exactly one year to go until the US presidential election. I mean, you could not make this up. So 365 days' time, Jimmy Carter will face the American voters. At about dawn, 300 students gathered near the embassy. And at least one of the female students, they're wearing these black
32:28 Tom Holland? Chadours.
32:29 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, Chadours, black robes. And they have bolt cutters hidden under their Chadours. And they're brought enough enough food for three days. That's as long as they think the occupation will plausibly last at the outside. They go through the streets towards the embassy. Remember that Tehran, there are always street protests and stuff, so people don't think anything of it. And inside the embassy, nobody really has any idea what's happening. There's a brilliant book on this by an American writer called Mark Bowden called Guests of the Ayatollah, all about the siege and the hostage experience, which I heartily recommend to the listeners. And one of the people he talks about in this book is the press attache, who was Barry Rosen, who was a big sort of Iranophile.
33:13 Dominic Sandbrook? He'd been a Peace Corps volunteer in Iran, he spoke Farsi, all of this. He's in his office, it's nine o'clock, he's typing a report and he hears shouting at the window. He goes to the window with his secretary, there's this huge crowd. Some men, men with a lot of stubble shouting, death to Jimmy Carter, death to America. Women in their Chadours, fists pumping, hurrah for the Ayatollah, all this kind of thing. Standard stuff. And he watches it for a little while and then to his horror, he sees they're starting to climb the gates.
33:43 Tom Holland? And I guess if you're an American diplomat in the seventies, seeing people climb over the walls of American embassies, it's not a good sign.
33:51 Dominic Sandbrook? You're absolutely right. It is only four years since the fall of Saigon. You know, the scar of South Vietnam's fall has not healed by any means. And those scenes at the US Embassy must be, I mean, they are very fresh in people's minds.
34:07 Tom Holland? And there are no helicopters on hand.
34:09 Dominic Sandbrook? There are no helicopters, well.
34:10 Tom Holland? As yet.
34:12 Dominic Sandbrook? Rosen goes back in, he says, "Bar the door, you know, I need to get rid of any sensitive papers." But actually, before he can do that, men are already forcing their way into his office. And he shouts at them in Farsi, "Get out," or whatever. But more and more of them are coming in. And one of them says to him, "Leave immediately, or you will be hurt. We are in control." And Rosen can see, they're very young, they're very disorganized, they are frightened, of course, and they're angry. They're in a terrible state. And he thinks, "Well, I'll just give in," you know, "because this will be over soon. I know how these things work. I'm just gonna have to set this up for the time being." And he is led outside by these blokes. And there are already hundreds of people pouring into the compound. And they are moving around the buildings, they're going through all the cupboards, they're
34:56 Dominic Sandbrook? pulling out documents, all of this kind of thing. In the chancery building, the students demand that the staff open the safes. The staff don't have the combination. Some of the students start hitting them. And then they drag the staff outside, they bind them, they blindfold them. And this happens in every building in the compound. It's a very confused and dramatic scene, but it all happens pretty quickly.
35:21 Dominic Sandbrook? An obvious question is why the Americans don't fight back. Why is there no shooting? And there are a couple of explanations. One is that not all the students are violent. So some of them carry signs in English that say, "Don't be afraid, we just want to sit in."
35:34 Tom Holland? Right. So this is like Berkeley. This is like a student sit-in in California.
35:37 Dominic Sandbrook? Right, exactly. Or the London School of Economics, or the sit-ins that have been so familiar in the 60s and 70s. Secondly, an obvious point, the Marines are massively outnumbered. I think there are about just over a dozen Marines in the compound. There are 300 students. You know, you're not gonna shoot them all. So they're overwhelmed. But crucially, everybody thinks this will be over within hours, because there have been attacks on the embassy before. You know, it's scary, and it's, you know, traumatic, but it's not gonna last forever. So by lunchtime, it's all over. The compound is now full of hundreds of Iranians, and about 60 Americans have been taken prisoner. Most of them have been blindfolded or bound. Some of them are really in a, you know, they've been hit, they're
36:20 Dominic Sandbrook? bruised, they're battered. Some of them are terrified they're gonna be shot. Some of them are saying to their friends, "Don't worry, it's fine. We'll probably be on a plane going home tomorrow." This is how these things work. The chief diplomat, Bruce Lengen, and two of his senior officials are not there. They had a meeting at the Iranian Foreign Ministry. They went to the Foreign Ministry, Lengen found out what was going on. And he said, I want to see the Foreign Minister. And they basically showed him into a dining room. And he was there for hours. And then he was there overnight. And then he was there for another day. And then he basically realised, I'm never getting out of this room.
36:56 Tom Holland? And then does he get taken to the, back to the embassy?
36:58 Dominic Sandbrook? No, they get shut up in the Foreign Ministry.
37:00 Tom Holland? Forever.
37:01 Dominic Sandbrook? Forever.
37:02 Tom Holland? Well, what happens to them? Do they get out as well in the end?
37:04 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, they're hostages. They're hostages but stuck in the Foreign Ministry.
37:07 Tom Holland? Not even with their mates back in the embassy?
37:09 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, as we will see, the hostages end up, a lot of them end up getting split up. They get into solitary confinement and so on and so forth. So they're all prisoners. They've ended up as prisoners of the Iranian Revolution. Of the 72 embassy staff, only six of them avoided capture. And this is an extraordinary story.
37:27 Tom Holland? Yeah, because this is the film, isn't it?
37:29 Dominic Sandbrook? This is Argo. There were five of them, Mark and Cora Lyek, Joseph and Kathleen Stafford and Robert Anders, who were working in the consulate. The consulate building had a separate exit onto the street. So they were able to sneak out. Their original plan was to go to the British Embassy. But there was a massive crowd outside the British Embassy. So they had to abandon that. And after various goings on, they end up being taken in by the Canadians, as well as the sixth guy called Henry Lee Schatz. And the story of how they're taken in by the Canadians and then they get out of Iran is the Ben Affleck film, Argo. This extraordinary story, just to cut it a very long story short. The Canadians, who are the great heroes of this story, teamed up with a CIA agent
38:14 Dominic Sandbrook? called Tony Mendez, of course he was called Tony Mendez. And he created false identities for them. They pretended they'd been working as Hollywood film scouts, checking out locations for a science fiction film called Argo. And the CIA went to the lengths of opening a Hollywood studio to make this film. They made posters, they ran ads in Variety and The Hollywood Reporter to create a cover story for them. And Mendez in January 1980 flies into Iran with his forgery kit to basically get these guys out.
38:46 Tom Holland? It's such a good film.
38:48 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, Canadian caper, it was called at the time. An amazing story. I mean, the fact that I'm telling the story, if you haven't seen the film, you can probably guess whether they get out or not, but it is still worth watching the film.
38:59 Tom Holland? I mean, I've got to say Tehran is an excellent place for thrillers. There's also a tremendous Israeli spy series called Tehran.
39:06 Dominic Sandbrook? Oh, yeah, I remember you telling us about that. Yeah.
39:08 Tom Holland? Mossad agent who goes undercover in Tehran. It's actually very kind of le carre. Both sides are morally ambivalent. I really commend it and it's tense, particularly the first two episodes is incredibly tense in exactly the way that I'll go is tense.
39:23 Dominic Sandbrook? And tense, Tom, I would like to believe in the same way that this episode is tense, no?
39:28 Tom Holland? Yeah, absolutely.
39:29 Dominic Sandbrook? Because 66 hostages have now been left in captivity and Jimmy Carter now has a massive headache. So he's at Camp David, his sort of retreat. It's four o'clock in the morning and he gets the call from the State Department that the embassy has been taken and people have been taken hostage. And he puts the phone down and he tries to get back to sleep, but he can't sleep for obvious reasons. He had specifically asked his advisors what they would do if this happened and they had not given him a clear answer. And he must know, even at this stage, that if he can't find an answer, then he and his presidency are heading for the dustbin of history.
40:08 Tom Holland? Not the dustbin of history.
40:10 Dominic Sandbrook? Do you know what? That's a, it's a Ronald Reagan image. That's why I chose it.
40:13 Tom Holland? Oh, Dominic, well, you said tension.
40:17 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
40:17 Tom Holland? Attention, we've got it. Come back after the break to find out if Jimmy Carter can get out of the bin.
40:29 Dominic Sandbrook? This episode is brought to you by TikTok. We obviously love history here. It's always a treat to make a new discovery, especially in unexpected ways.
40:38 Tom Holland? Which is exactly what happens on TikTok. Like, you know, coffee, you make it, add milk, drink it, nothing more, except.
40:49 Dominic Sandbrook? Except when you hop on TikTok, you don't just learn how to make an authentic cappuccino, you can also discover videos about how in the 1700s, people would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it.
41:04 Tom Holland? And suddenly you're imagining how people lived, drank, socialised. Makes you wonder what will baffle historians about us. And that's the joy of TikTok. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different.
41:19 Dominic Sandbrook? Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Visit tiktok.com forward slash discover more.
41:31 Dominic Sandbrook? This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Tom, as you know, I spend all my time working and in a dream world, I would clone a sort of Tom Holland who would do all the work for me. But sadly, technology has not advanced to that point. If it did, I wish there was a recruiting company that I could use to hire that clone for me.
41:52 Tom Holland? Well, Dominic, you are in luck because if you are hiring, then ZipRecruiter is the great time saver. You can try it free at ziprecruiter.com slash history. It shows you qualified candidates almost instantly. So save time with ZipRecruiter. Four out of five employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day.
42:20 Dominic Sandbrook? Try it for free at ziprecruiter.com slash history. That's ziprecruiter.com slash history. Meet your match on ZipRecruiter.
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43:17 Tom Holland? Hello and welcome back to The Rest Is History. We left you with the United States Embassy in the hands of student militants and some 66 American hostages from that embassy being held hostage. So Dominic, what happens to these hostages?
43:34 Dominic Sandbrook? So at first, remember the hostages don't think they're going to end up as long-term hostages. They think they will be out within hours, maybe a day, worst case, two or three days. At first, they're held in the embassy compound. And they were held there for a very long time, for weeks and months, until the Iranians became worried that the Americans might try to rescue them and they moved them to prisons. They spit them up and moved them to prisons around Tehran. I mentioned Mark Bowden's book, Guests of the Ayatollah. This was an expression used by the Iranians. They said, "These people are the guests of our regime." But they weren't treated like guests. They were blindfolded, they were regularly interrogated, they were bullied, they were beaten. People would put guns to their heads, they would
44:19 Dominic Sandbrook? pretend to play Russian roulette with them, they would threaten to shoot them unless they admitted that they were spies and handed over secrets.
44:27 Tom Holland? I'm surprised they would use the word guests, actually, because hospitality is such a big deal in Islam.
44:32 Dominic Sandbrook? It's a joke, isn't it? There's something mocking about the attitude of the Iranians during this crisis.
44:38 Tom Holland? But the rules of hospitality are so important.
44:41 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, I mean, this is not a great advert for Iranian hospitality, not least because the hostage takers themselves, of course, they're young, they're in their early twenties. They themselves are frightened, overexcited, disorganized, bad-tempered. They spend a lot of time screaming at each other and at the hostages. Some of the hostages, the women and African Americans, were released before the end of November after a few weeks, obviously because the captors wanted to make a political point. This is the sort of 1968 side of the Iranian revolution. So that left fifty two of them still in captivity. And their story is a pretty grim one. I mean, a lot of them had a really, really terrible time. They were regularly beaten.
45:25 Dominic Sandbrook? They were regularly bound for days. They were brought out before jeering crowds. They were split up and put into solitary confinement and so on.
45:33 Tom Holland? And they're always wearing blindfolds, aren't they? So all the photographs, they're always, I mean, just awful.
45:38 Dominic Sandbrook? And when they were moved to prisons, they had a really, really tough time. And the prison guards, so who were not students, the prison guards, they beat them, they tortured them, all of this kind of thing. And of course, the greatest torment of all is just how long this goes on for. So huge spoiler alert now. These guys are going to be in captivity for four hundred and forty four days. So far, far longer than they had envisaged, or indeed the students had envisaged. I mean, this is the interesting thing. So the question is, why? This was never part of the students' plan. Why didn't they let them go?
46:18 Tom Holland? And what about the Ayatollah's promise that, you know, just get on the phone to me and I'll sort it out?
46:22 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, this is where we get to the nub of the story, the Ayatollah. So Khomeini, despite what was often said in, you know, particularly American newspapers in nineteen seventy nine and nineteen eighty, Khomeini almost certainly knew nothing about their plan. Or if he did know anything, the vaguest possible informations of it. Because we know that when his foreign minister went to him and said, this is what has happened, Khomeini was really surprised and he said, and I quote, who are these people? Why have they done this? Go and kick them out. So that was his initial reaction, sort of midday or so on the fourth of November. But by that evening, he already seems to have changed his mind.
47:01 Dominic Sandbrook? And there are some suggestions that this is because his son was in Tehran and his son went to the embassy and reported back. He said, the students are massive fans of yours. They're doing this in your name and people love it. The reaction on the streets of Tehran is one of delirium, of joy, of ecstasy. Everybody thinks this is the most tremendous coup. And what is more, actually, within days, the embassy becomes a massive tourist attraction. Great crowds will go, they're celebrating and cheering, there are people selling tapes of Khomeini's sermons.
47:36 Tom Holland? Are they kind of taking souvenirs?
47:38 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, there are people selling souvenir hats and stuff. I mean, I read this and I actually, I did some Googling, enthusiastic Googling. I don't know what a souvenir US Embassy seizure hat would look like.
47:52 Tom Holland? A Stetson?
47:53 Dominic Sandbrook? No, I don't, well, would they be Stetsons? I mean, who's making Stetsons in Tehran?
47:57 Tom Holland? Baseball caps.
47:58 Dominic Sandbrook? Maybe baseball caps.
47:59 Tom Holland? I mean, are these, are these hats that the?
48:02 Dominic Sandbrook? Iranians are wearing.
48:03 Tom Holland? They're not hats that they've taken from the US Embassy?
48:05 Dominic Sandbrook? No, how many hats could there have possibly been in the US Embassy?
48:08 Tom Holland? I imagine it's obligatory for a US ambassador to have a Stetson.
48:11 Dominic Sandbrook? Surely, but I mean, that's only one Stetson, they're selling loads of hats. Anyway, we've got sidetracked into this hat issue, millinery. We're not the rest as millinery, Tom. So to go back to Khomeini. This is a good example, I think, of his political skill, his underrated political skill, because he sees this is the perfect symbolic issue to maintain his hold on the streets, because the longer he can spin all this out, the better for him. It makes the sort of so-called moderates in his interim government look a bit weak and feeble. And it allows the more extreme elements, the hardline elements, the revolutionary committees to build support. So Bakir Mohin's biography of Khomeini quotes him talking to a friend.
48:54 Dominic Sandbrook? "We keep the hostages, finish our internal work, then release them. This has united our people. We can put the constitution to the people's vote without difficulty and carry out the presidential and parliamentary elections. And when we've finished all these jobs, then we can let the hostages go." So in other words, we keep them for as long as we need to cement our control of Iran.
49:16 Tom Holland? And do you think also the optics of it is that you keep a hostage to ensure that your enemy won't do anything? And even though perhaps the United States were not planning by this stage a military invasion or anything, it might generate subliminally in the minds of Iranian revolutionaries, the sense that their revolution is under threat by holding the hostages.
49:39 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, possibly, possibly. And of course, might give you a little bit of security, you know?
49:43 Tom Holland? Yeah.
49:43 Dominic Sandbrook? The Americans won't attack us now because we have 52 of their people held hostage. Now, the hostage takers did have a list of demands. They wanted the United States to hand over the Shah for trial. They wanted the Americans to issue a formal apology for the coup of 1953. So that's sort of sense of history again. And they wanted American banks to release all Iran's frozen assets. But I think these demands are completely beside the point. And this is something that Americans never really realised, that the White House, the State Department, could never quite get into their heads, that the demands were irrelevant. Because Khomeini and the clerics didn't want to release the hostages. They were too useful. Because right away, he gets results. The interim government of Barzeghan, the goatee bearded guy and all these people,
50:29 Dominic Sandbrook? they resigned days after the embassy seizure. They were shocked by the embassy seizure. They resigned and Khomeini thought, well, brilliant. Because basically now the hardliners are left unchallenged to wield power in my name, which is what he wanted. But the Americans, I think, didn't really realise this. Most people in Washington thought that the Iranians would be keen to negotiate. And in the State Department, the working assumption was probably this is all about money. And we can do a deal. We can release frozen Iranian bank assets. And that way we'll get the hostages back. And this will take weeks, worst case, months, but it's perfectly doable.
51:12 Dominic Sandbrook? And in fact, the mad thing, some of Carter's reelection team thought this would work in his favour. So he's going to be facing a challenge from Chappell Quiddix, Ted Kennedy. And they think, well, this will allow Carter to wrap himself in the flag. Kennedy is playing politics. Well, you know, the president is doing all he can for the hostages. And Carter's chief of staff, Hamilton Jordan, said, let's keep this on the front pages.
51:38 Tom Holland? That's mad. That's, that's the worst strategy.
51:42 Dominic Sandbrook? I know, I know, it is a mad strategy. He said, I quote, "It will provide a nice contrast between Carter and our friend from Massachusetts in how to handle a crisis."
51:50 Tom Holland? Oh, God. I mean, neither of them are very good in a crisis, it has to be said.
51:54 Dominic Sandbrook? No. So Carter takes this whole business incredibly seriously. He can't sleep. He's always going off to prayer meetings. He insists on personally meeting the families of all the hostages. His aides become quite worried about him. They say, you know, he's just constantly going on about hostages having all these meetings. And a lot of this, I think, is guilt. Because when he was asked by congressional leaders, you know, is this kind of our fault for admitting the Shah? He snapped at them in a very, I don't give a damn whether or not you like the Shah, he said. And the tetanus suggests to me that he feels personally responsible because he admitted the Shah, he didn't really want to do it, he gave in, he let the Shah in, and this
52:38 Dominic Sandbrook? is the result. However, in the short term, oddly, it does work in his favour. Because this is a thing that's often sort of elided in accounts of the hostage crisis. There was a big jump in his approval rating in November 1979.
52:54 Tom Holland? Well, because you rally to the flag, don't you?
52:56 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, exactly.
52:57 Tom Holland? I mean, it's like in the wake of 9/11, disastrous intelligence failure. Everyone thinks Bush is brilliant.
53:02 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, exactly. But this sort of spike in his popularity will only be sustainable if he gets the hostages out. If he doesn't get them out, it's bound to fade. And the other thing is, what he wants to do, and what his chief of staff wants to do, they want to make his presidency now all about getting the hostages home, because they think it will work in his favour. But that's so reckless, because if he's mortgaging his presidency to the decisions of people in Tehran that he doesn't understand.
53:32 Tom Holland? Yeah.
53:33 Dominic Sandbrook? Now, the other thing is, I say people he doesn't understand, nobody in Washington still understands the Ayatollah Khomeini. I mean, you were talking in our previous episodes about the Ayatollah's, his apocalyptic sense, his, you know, the sort of, the red, raw intensity of his eschatological theological vision. No one in Washington has the slightest sense of this. I mean, the National Security Council's Iran specialist guy called Gary Sick wrote afterwards...
54:05 Tom Holland? Gary Sick?
54:06 Dominic Sandbrook? Gary Sick was his name. Nobody knew what kind of person Khomeini was. He was simply beyond the experience, if not the imagination, of anyone in the United States government. They have no sense of this. And what Khomeini then does, which they didn't expect...
54:23 Dominic Sandbrook? He loves this and he personalises it and he makes it into a duel between himself and Jimmy Carter. So Khomeini gave interviews to all three American networks, pretty much straight after the seizure of the US Embassy. He was completely unflappable, he was completely unrepentant. He said the hostages were spies, this is all Carter's fault. It's Carter who's the criminal breaking international law by admitting the Shah. And he mocked Carter, this is again, you think of the Ayatollah as so grim and formidable, which of course he was. But there is a sort of, there's a bit of the school bully in him, I have to say. He says explicitly, Carter is beating an empty drum. Carter does not have the guts to engage in military action.
55:07 Tom Holland? Weak, weak, weak.
55:09 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
55:10 Tom Holland? But I wonder also though, whether there isn't, you know, we talked about this apocalyptic vision that the Ayatollah has. And Iranian sheism, I think, is massively influenced by this kind of the dualist traditions of Zoroastrianism and Manicheism. This sense of the world divided into rival forces of good and evil. And he, he's not just demonising Carter, he is also literally demonising America. Because the day after the students occupy the US Embassy, he coins this phrase, the great Satan.
55:46 Tom Holland? And I'm sure most of our listeners will have a sense of the great Satan as the phrase that is most often used by Islamic militants to describe America. And the thing is that this isn't a Koranic phrase. The Ayatollah basically seems to have made it up. And in the, I mean, in the Quran, the figure of Satan isn't the figure that would be familiar to kind of Christians. The sense of a terrifying demonic figure contesting the rule of the world with, you know, the divine forces of good. But Satan is a kind of a tempter, he's the person who seduces devout Muslims from, from, from the path of righteousness.
56:25 Tom Holland? But I think the Ayatollah is kind of making the, the figure of Satan into a kind of, you know, a Manichean figure of evil. And that's what America becomes for him. And of course. In America as well, you also have this Manichean sense of good and evil. And both sides now are starting to think of the other as a literal cosmic representation of evil.
56:53 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, I think that's true because remember that in America, we were saying in a previous episode, American TV networks previously devoted five minutes a year to Iran.
57:04 Tom Holland? To the Shah going skiing.
57:06 Dominic Sandbrook? I mean, now this becomes this huge TV spectacle. So we've talked in previous series, for example, the Jack the Ripper series, about how important the media can be in kind of framing a crisis and creating a story and how important is it mediating all these things, constructing stories, I suppose. And this is a really good example because the American networks all start running special programs about the hostage crisis. So ABC led the way. They had a show called America Held Hostage. It ran every single night. And every edition of this show began day 57, day 58, you know, the sort of sense of a ticking clock. I think the whole thing is incredibly unsettling and the scenes from Iran seem
57:50 Dominic Sandbrook? much more alien to American viewers than, say, the scenes of Red Square.
57:55 Tom Holland? Yes, because they're in military uniforms, like kind of Western uniforms.
57:58 Dominic Sandbrook? There was something unbelievably alien, I would say, to, you're watching it in, you know, Wichita, Kansas or something. This might as well be happening on an alien planet as far as you're concerned. And you talked about the Manicheanism, the good versus evil sense of it is so important. We already mentioned this is only four years after the fall of South Vietnam, after the end of a story that was so confused and grubby and morally ambiguous, in which America was often painted as the villain, and many Americans believed that they were the villains. And this is a story in which it seems to Americans, this is clear cut, good versus evil. There are clean cut hostages, many of whom are in their twenties, and there are
58:42 Dominic Sandbrook? these howling mobs shouting about the great Satan. I mean, it's a story, it had colossal cut through. The families, the mothers of the hostages became TV stars. So when a particular hostage might be dragged out on TV, on American TV, his mother would then be dragged out and she would be crying for the cameras and whatnot. There was a mother who went to Iran called Barbara Tim. Her son Kevin was the youngest hostage, he was a marine. She got into Tehran, she got to see him for 45 minutes and talked to him about the fortunes of his high school basketball team who had made, I believe, the Wisconsin state championships.
59:19 Tom Holland? That must have cheered him up.
59:20 Dominic Sandbrook? That's what they talked about. I mean, there were also, I have to say, some very, mentioning Vietnam, you know, there is that tradition of the anti-war left. There are some, shall we say, colourful visitors to Tehran.
59:32 Tom Holland? Jane Fonda doesn't go.
59:33 Dominic Sandbrook? No, but some Vietnam, some clergymen, some lefty clergymen go. So at Christmas, the hostages had the treat of a visit from these clergymen led by a veteran peace activist called William Sloan Coffin.
59:46 Tom Holland? And so you've got diplomats called Sick, you've got clergymen called Coffin.
59:52 Dominic Sandbrook? But wait for it, this is unbelievable. This bloke turned up and he met the hostages and he said to them, you know, they were hoping for an inspiring message from an American priest, and he said, stop feeling sorry for yourselves. He said, I envy you having an extended period of peace and quiet to rest and think. And the hostages listened to this stupid faction. And then when the meeting was over, he went in front of the cameras and he said on American TV, yeah, we scream and shout about the hostages, but very few Americans heard the screams of tortured Iranians. And this kind of thing, obviously, the hostages don't want to hear this. And then actually, it possibly even worse than this. A few weeks later, another group of radical activists visited the embassy and they were led by a guy who was a Native American activist with the unimprovable name of John
1:00:37 Dominic Sandbrook? Thomas. And John Thomas.
1:00:40 Dominic Sandbrook? Had he'd previously occupied wounded knee in 1973 and now he led the Iranian crowd chanting death to Carter.
1:00:50 Tom Holland? I thought you were going to say death to Custer.
1:00:52 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes, well, yeah, that's at the US Embassy. So maybe he was misheard. Maybe he was shouting death to Custer, who knows? Anyway, the peak of all the sort of interest in the hostages came at Christmas. So I mentioned Bruce Lengin, who was the most senior diplomat taken hostage in the Foreign Ministry. His wife Penny gave a very moving interview to the Washington Post.
1:01:11 Tom Holland? Does he get special treatment or not?
1:01:12 Dominic Sandbrook? Um, perhaps slightly better treatment, but still not great.
1:01:16 Tom Holland? Yeah, okay.
1:01:17 Dominic Sandbrook? I think the fact that they're in the Foreign Ministry meant it wasn't quite as bad as elsewhere, but it's, you know, it wasn't a bundle of laughs. So his wife Penny said, you know, it's a, it's a very kind of, as long as you're not too cynical, it's a very touching interview. She says, I'm going to be decorating our house with a wreath and advent candles as normal, because that's what Bruce want me to do. She says, I take comfort in Bruce's captivity from ringing the bells at my local church. I hope other people will do the same. I think it's such a lovely symbol. It conveys hope and joy.
1:01:49 Tom Holland? Like Joan of Arc.
1:01:50 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, a bit like Joan of Arc and, and people did do this, actually. People were very moved by this. And then she says, we've got an old oak tree in the garden and I've tied a yellow ribbon around it. And she's inspired, she says, by a, a number one single from 1973, which was tie a yellow ribbon around the old oak tree by Tony Orlando and Dawn. Because I don't want to be too cynical, I can't bring myself to listen to it because I'm worried that if I listen to it.
1:02:18 Tom Holland? You'll sob.
1:02:19 Dominic Sandbrook? No, I'm worried I will, I will scoff in a, in a cruel and, and unfeeling way. And I don't want to do that. So this song was inspired by stories about the US cavalry in the American Civil War. Women whose sweethearts were cavalrymen would wear yellow ribbons in their hair. So it is said.
1:02:37 Tom Holland? Well, how did the old oak tree come into it?
1:02:39 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, Penny Langen tied a yellow ribbon around this oak tree.
1:02:43 Tom Holland? Yeah, but in the song?
1:02:44 Dominic Sandbrook? No, she was inspired by the song.
1:02:46 Tom Holland? I know, but if it's, but if the women are tying yellow ribbons in their hair, how did they come up with the idea for the oak tree in the song?
1:02:52 Dominic Sandbrook? It's her idea. That's her idea.
1:02:54 Tom Holland? No, it's not. It's the idea of Tony Orlando and Dawn.
1:02:57 Dominic Sandbrook? You'll have to ask Tony Orlando and Dawn how they made the leap from the ribbon in the hair to the ribbon around the tree.
1:03:03 Tom Holland? I mean, it's quite a leap. If there are any musicologists out there, let us know.
1:03:06 Dominic Sandbrook? The important fact is that she tied the yellow ribbon around her oak tree, and then she said, "One of these days Bruce is going to untie that yellow ribbon, and it's going to be out there until he does." And Tom, if you don't have a tear in your eye listening to this, there's something wrong with you. Lots of people did, anyway, even if you didn't.
1:03:27 Tom Holland? Hey, I do find that affecting.
1:03:29 Dominic Sandbrook? They tied it to trees, they tied them to lamp posts, they tied them to flags. Jimmy Carter put a yellow ribbon on his Christmas tree.
1:03:36 Tom Holland? You see, that's a political error, isn't it?
1:03:38 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, he said, he also, this is typical miserabilism from Jimmy Carter. He said, "I'm not going to turn on the lights on the Christmas tree."
1:03:45 Tom Holland? Or the heating.
1:03:46 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes. His thermostat is set at, you know, zero or whatever. He's travelling on the bus to save, to save energy. He doesn't turn on the, he says, "I'm not going to turn on the lights on the Christmas tree till the hostages come home." It says they don't come home.
1:04:02 Tom Holland? Does that mean he's got to leave the Christmas tree up until they come home?
1:04:05 Dominic Sandbrook? No, no, I don't, no, I don't think he does that. Tabby is pointing out that Jimmy Carter's cardigans would keep him warm, so no wonder he's got the thermostat down. Actually, there was a yellow ribbon, so the Super Bowl, Steelers versus Rams. There was a huge yellow ribbon tied around the stadium?
1:04:21 Tom Holland? Wow.
1:04:22 Dominic Sandbrook? Americans must think it's mad that we're laughing at this, but anyway.
1:04:25 Tom Holland? I'm not laughing at it, you are.
1:04:26 Dominic Sandbrook? So, I mean, I don't want to laugh at the hostage crisis, obviously. There are some mad things connected with it, though. So there were pro-war demonstrations on college campuses. So there were students, for example, at Ohio State chanting, "Nagasaki, Hiroshima, why not Iran?"
1:04:43 Dominic Sandbrook? I mean, that's a change from the Vietnam War protests. Princeton, students waving bed sheets in which they'd written nuke the Ayatollah. There were some mad songs. So I know you like a song. Are you familiar with Take Your Oil and Shove It by Bobby Baker?
1:04:59 Tom Holland? No, Dominic, I'm not, but I am familiar with the, that great song by the Baritone Dwarfs. Um, bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb Iran.
1:05:08 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes.
1:05:08 Tom Holland? Based on Barbara Ann by the Beach Boys.
1:05:12 Dominic Sandbrook? Do you know there were more than, I think there were six different bomb Iran songs done by different bands? All based on the Beach Boys Barbara Ann.
1:05:20 Tom Holland? Not good news for the hostages if Tehran gets nuked.
1:05:23 Dominic Sandbrook? No, it wouldn't be good news.
1:05:25 Tom Holland? And also, you know, I mean, it kind of, um, you can kind of understand the, uh, the Ayatollahs wanting their own.
1:05:30 Dominic Sandbrook? Nuclear weapon.
1:05:31 Tom Holland? Nuclear weapon.
1:05:32 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, they've been provoked because, um, American toy companies have started selling dolls of the Ayatollah. Oh man, you've seen this? Um, and I'm going to read you the, uh, the advertising copy. Available for those who want to strike back. Make him your prisoner. Act now. Get rope, pins, other torture equipment.
1:05:50 Tom Holland? Oh my God.
1:05:52 Dominic Sandbrook? And then the words, and then the words, fabulous gift item.
1:05:59 Dominic Sandbrook? Imagine your child opening that at Christmas.
1:06:02 Tom Holland? Oh, thanks, mommy.
1:06:04 Dominic Sandbrook? But then my favorite, I, my favorite story, there was a brothel in the arena called the Mustang Ranch. And they put up a sign on the door that said, no more Iranian students will be permitted on these premises until the hostages are released. How many Iranian students were going to the Mustang Ranch? I mean, I don't know how much custom they were losing through that, that making a stand. Now, on a more serious note, what's happened to the most controversial Iranian, uh, living in America? Not, I think, a client of the Mustang Ranch. There's somebody who was not a stranger to the escort industry. And this is the Shah. The Shah, you may remember, had arrived at the Cornell Medical Center for Emergency Treatment.
1:06:47 Dominic Sandbrook? He had complications in the surgery, the cancer didn't go away, there was more suffering ahead because he had to endure bedside visits from Henry Kissinger and Frank Sinatra.
1:06:56 Tom Holland? God, will the torture never end?
1:06:58 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, it didn't actually.
1:06:59 Tom Holland? Why, what's Frank Sinatra doing, turning up? I mean, I actually quite like Frank Sinatra of Harrison Hospital.
1:07:03 Dominic Sandbrook? Really?
1:07:04 Tom Holland? Well, you see me, so, yeah.
1:07:06 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah, I think Frank Sinatra at this point has moved to the right, I'm guessing, because he's quite pally with Reagan, so, and maybe showing solidarity with the Shah is part of Frank Sinatra's vibe.
1:07:15 Tom Holland? Maybe he's just a hospital visitor.
1:07:17 Dominic Sandbrook? Maybe. So the Carter administration, still not terribly keen on the Shah, they basically kicked him out again, they said, we want you to go, and in December they said, we've arranged for you to go to Panama. So he moved to Panama, and the dictator of Panama at the time, General Torrijos, was not a good host. He charged the Shah $21,000 a day for board and lodging, which seems harsh, and he also, I think the expression is, trolled the Shah by appointing to supervise him in his exile, a Marxist sociology professor.
1:07:53 Tom Holland? That's the worst kind of professor.
1:07:55 Dominic Sandbrook? Exactly, and the worst kind of Marxist, the worst kind of sociologist, the worst kind of professor. Every day, the Shah would get up feeling incredibly sorry for himself and ill, and this bloke was hanging around lecturing him about the evils of imperialism. The Shah was still, he still thought he would get back to Iran. So General Torrijos, in Panama, as part of his sort of winding the Shah up, said to him, you're a bit like Napoleon in exile, aren't you? You're like Napoleon on St Helena. And the Shah said, no, because Napoleon never got back. But I will, my dynasty will prevail.
1:08:25 Tom Holland? Well, time will tell, I guess, as we record this, who knows?
1:08:28 Dominic Sandbrook? So he ends up, finally, he moves on from there to Egypt, he's very, very ill indeed, the cancer was spread, and the Shah died on the 27th of July, 1980. His last words supposedly, which he whispered again and again, were, Iran is Iran, which is exactly what, you know, you would want him to say, I suppose. The reaction from the Islamic Republic, probably not as gracious as one would hope.
1:08:53 Tom Holland? Right.
1:08:53 Dominic Sandbrook? So the official Iranian news agency issued a statement, he died in disgrace, misery and vagrancy, and Radio Tehran, the bloodsucker of the century has died at last. So that's harsh.
1:09:06 Tom Holland? I mean, he was a bloodsucker, to be fair.
1:09:09 Dominic Sandbrook? He was.
1:09:10 Tom Holland? Yeah.
1:09:11 Dominic Sandbrook? That's harsh.
1:09:12 Tom Holland? Well, he sucked, I mean, he lavished masses of money on ludicrous French food in celebrating Cyrus the Great.
1:09:21 Dominic Sandbrook? He did, but I think it's harsh to go from that to calling him a bloodsucker.
1:09:24 Tom Holland? It's a metaphor.
1:09:25 Dominic Sandbrook? Okay, fine. I mean, I think you're.
1:09:27 Tom Holland? I'm not saying he's literally a vampire.
1:09:28 Dominic Sandbrook? If there are any Shah-friendly Iranian exiles listening, I'm distancing myself from Tom here.
1:09:33 Tom Holland? He did, I mean, he did loot Iran.
1:09:34 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, he was very corrupt. He was very corrupt. He was weak.
1:09:38 Tom Holland? He had loads of palaces.
1:09:39 Dominic Sandbrook? And he was foolish, I think. But I don't think he's one of the worst tyrants of the century. I mean, he had a pretty hideous secret police. I mean, this is a mad thing to say, given that they were a hideous secret police, but they weren't as hideous as some.
1:09:52 Tom Holland? On the hideous mistakes, how do you think they compare to the Islamic Republic's secret police?
1:09:57 Dominic Sandbrook? This is very rare for the rest of history. I'm just going to come out and say I don't know.
1:10:01 Tom Holland? Okay. Well, I suppose it depends which side you're on, probably.
1:10:05 Dominic Sandbrook? I'd be more likely, I think, to end up on the wrong side of the Islamic Republic's secret police.
1:10:10 Tom Holland? I definitely would.
1:10:11 Dominic Sandbrook? Well, you definitely would, no question. Anyway, the Egyptians organised a state funeral for the Shah. President Sadat was the chief mourner. Jimmy Carter, do you think he went?
1:10:20 Tom Holland? No, I don't think he did.
1:10:21 Dominic Sandbrook? Of course he didn't go. By this point, he's in his, he's effing and blinding against the Shah.
1:10:25 Tom Holland? Does Frank Sinatra go?
1:10:27 Dominic Sandbrook? No, but I'll tell you who did go. He flew economy and that shows his commitment. Friend of the show, Richard Milhouse Nixon. He flew economy to Cairo to give the eulogy. And do you know what he said of the Shah? He said, "He was a real man."
1:10:43 Tom Holland? Unlike who?
1:10:44 Dominic Sandbrook? Unlike, unlike Jimmy Carter, obviously.
1:10:48 Tom Holland? Had Nixon gone to the Cyrus the Great party?
1:10:51 Dominic Sandbrook? No, I don't think he did. I'd like to think that Spiro Agnew, his vice president, went, but I'm not certain. I'd have to check. Anyway, Nixon said, "The Shah was a real man and Jimmy Carter's treatment of the Shah is one of the black pages of American history."
1:11:05 Tom Holland? I mean, that's really poor for Carter, isn't it? Because on the one hand, he's let the Shah in and all the hostages have been taken. And on the other hand, he doesn't get any credit for it at all.
1:11:14 Dominic Sandbrook? He's lost every way. Exactly. Now, actually, by this point, Carter's got bigger things to worry about. So he hasn't been able to turn on the White House Christmas lights. That's one thing, because of course the hostages have not been released. And the longer this has gone on, the rallying around the flag has weakened and the perception of weakness has built and built. And it's not just about Iran. We talked about the inflation and this is the economy has got worse and worse. So the Federal Reserve, under its new monetary boss, Paul Volcker, a really important figure in economic history in the last 50 years or so, they've put up interest rates to squeeze inflation. So interest rates will peak at almost 18% in
1:11:55 Dominic Sandbrook? the spring of 1980, really, really punishing. The result is the American economy in January 1980 goes into a deep recession. A million jobs in manufacturing alone are lost in the next few months. And that's the picture at home. The picture abroad is even worse. Carter was getting a hammering for being too weak even before the Iranian revolution, all this talk about communism in the ascendant America going backwards. But now it seems like actually, just as people had predicted, the Islamic revolution is spreading. So, two weeks after the American embassy seizure, Islamist militants seized the grand mosque in Mecca. And as you will know, Tom, that is the one place in Islam that matters more than any other effectively.
1:12:38 Tom Holland? It's literally Mecca.
1:12:40 Dominic Sandbrook? There's two weeks of fighting before they're evicted by Saudi troops. Hundreds of people are killed. Khomeini from Tehran says, "This occupation was a false flag operation. It was the work of criminal American imperialism and international Zionism." And as mad as it sounds, a lot of people believed him. So there are demonstrations against America after this, everywhere from Turkey to Indonesia and the Philippines. In Islamabad, in Pakistan, in Tripoli, in Libya, mobs literally burn the US embassy to the ground. They raise it to the ground. There is a sort of sense, and this is unprecedented, that the Muslim
1:13:23 Dominic Sandbrook? world has risen up and is in a war against the United States.
1:13:30 Tom Holland? Well, against the great Satan. I mean, I think that phrase is really taking fire.
1:13:34 Dominic Sandbrook? Yes. I mean, Time Magazine, a couple of days after this, announced that Khomeini was its man of the year. And Time Magazine, which speaks, of course, so often for kind of middle America. Said, you know, his revolution matters more than any political event since Hitler's conquest of Europe. And now that may sound overblown to some listeners, but that was the thinking in 1979, 1980. And actually, were they necessarily wrong when we look at the last, you know, 40 years or so? And then I'll tell you who's been absent from this conversation, finally about to enter the chat, the Kremlin. Because on Christmas Day, 1979, the policymakers in the Kremlin are themselves very alarmed about radical Islam, of course, because they have a lot of Muslims within the borders of the Soviet
1:14:19 Dominic Sandbrook? Union in Central Asia. And they decide they're going to intervene in Afghanistan to support their communist client regime in Kabul against the Mujahideen, the insurgents who are already being funded, ironically, by the Americans. And Jimmy Carter is at Camp David, he's watching a film called The Black Stallion with his daughter Amy. When he gets a call, Soviet troops have crossed the Amudaria River, the Oxus, once crossed by Alexander the Great, and they've gone into Afghanistan. And he thinks, oh, my God, like, it couldn't get worse. And he tells Congress a few days later, we are now facing the greatest threat to peace since the Second World War. It's as though all across this kind of what they call
1:15:03 Dominic Sandbrook? the Crescent of Crisis, going through the Middle East into kind of Central Asia and beyond, communism, radical Islam are on the march, and Western democratic capitalism is is embattled.
1:15:16 Tom Holland? So what's a poor peanut farmer to do?
1:15:18 Dominic Sandbrook? Right. So there's a real sense now in among the American people of retreat and failure. Carter's approval ratings are tanking, and a lot of his advisers, don't forget, the election is in November, only months to go now. And a lot of his advisers are thinking, if we do not do something now, we are doomed. His chief of staff, Hamilton Jordan, I mentioned him a couple of times, there's a story in his memoirs. One day, his nephew, who was 12 years old, said to him, why doesn't the president actually do anything? Why doesn't he do anything? And Hamilton Jordan said to him, well, like, what? And this kid said, bomb Iran, wipe them all out. A lot of my friends at school say that Jimmy Carter doesn't have the guts to do anything.
1:16:00 Tom Holland? You know who they need?
1:16:01 Dominic Sandbrook? Yeah.
1:16:02 Tom Holland? General Curtis LeMay.
1:16:05 Tom Holland? The guy who thought nuclear war was a good thing.
1:16:07 Dominic Sandbrook? In an alternative universe where George Wallace had become president in 1976 with Curtis B. LeMay as his running mate, the Iranian revolution, things would have taken a very different turn, I think. But actually, do you know what? This little brats mates are wrong. Jimmy Carter does have the guts to do something. Because on the 22nd of March 1980, Carter summons his national security team to Camp David and he says, okay, fine, it's time to consider a really drastic option. And he turns to the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and his military chiefs now unveil the plan for one of the most daring gambles in American history. A plan for an elite special forces unit to fly into the heart
1:16:50 Dominic Sandbrook? of Iran to make their way into Tehran and to rescue the hostages. It's an unbelievably jaw-droppingly audacious plan. But Tom, will it work? Well, you'll have to wait until the next episode to find out. Cliffhangers, we've got them. And if you want to hear, well, you can join our very own elite special forces unit, The Rest is History Club. And by doing that, you'll be able to hear that last episode right away. And of course, you'll get a whole host of extra benefits as well. And you can sign up, of course, at therestishistory.com. Dominic, thank you. Thank you, everyone for listening. Bye bye.
1:17:32 Tom Holland? Bye bye.
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