608. Nelson: Slaughter in Naples (Part 1)

What happened when the heroic Horatio Nelson, victor of the Battle of the Nile, sailed into the seething city of Naples? Why would his meeting with the glamorous celebrity, Lady Emma Hamilton, shape the rest of his life? And, why would his decision to lend his support to the foolhardy Neapolitan campaign to “liberate all of Italy” from the formidable French, prove to be one of the most controversial episodes of Nelson’s career? Join Dominic and Tom as they voyage deeper into the life of Nelson, and the incident that nearly destroyed his reputation forever…. Start generating your own greener electricity for less, with £500 off Solar. Visit https://www.hivehome.com/history for more information. T&Cs apply**Output and savings varies by season, electricity usage and system size. Paid-for surplus requires an eligible SEG tariff. Offer for new customers only. Ends 17th November. Join The Rest Is History Club: Unlock the full experience of the show – with exclusive bonus episodes, ad-free listening, early access to every series and live show tickets, a members-only newsletter, discounted books from the show, and access to our private Discord chatroom. Sign up directly at therestishistory.com For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Video Editor: Harry Swan Social Producer: Harry Baldwin Assistant Producer: Aaliyah Akude Producer: Tabby Syrett Senior Producer: Theo Young-Smith Exec Producer: Dom Johnson Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 0:02Tom Holland?

  This episode is supported by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Now, history's biggest leaps started as hard questions that people didn't want asked.

• 0:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, there's a classic example of that at the end of the 15th century. And the hard question in particular was, what is out there beyond the Atlantic Ocean to the west? And as you will know, the man who found the answer to that question was the explorer Christopher Columbus. And he realizes, or rather, everybody else realizes, that there is a vast continent out there. And it is, of course, the Americas. So Anthropic knows the importance of questions. And it's why Anthropic is founded on one hard question above all. How can we ensure that the AI revolution really goes well for ordinary people?

• 0:45Tom Holland?

  So they asked over 100,000 people. And what came back wasn't just fear, there was hope as well. People wanted to know, will cancer ever be cured? Can kids have a better future? It turns out that there is hope in hard questions.

• 0:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  Ask yours at claude.ai/RestIsHistory and keep thinking.

• 1:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. We obviously love history here. It's always a treat to make a new discovery, especially in unexpected ways.

• 1:17Tom Holland?

  Which is exactly what happens on TikTok. Like, you know, coffee, you make it, add milk, drink it, nothing more, except...

• 1:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  Except when you hop on TikTok, you don't just learn how to make an authentic cappuccino. You can also discover videos about how in the 1700s, people would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it.

• 1:44Tom Holland?

  And suddenly, you're imagining how people lived, drank, socialized. Makes you wonder what will baffle historians about us. And that's the joy of TikTok. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different.

• 1:58Dominic Sandbrook?

  Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Visit tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 2:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by ZipRecruiter. Tom, as you know, I spend all my time working and in a dream world, I would clone a sort of Tom Holland who would do all the work for me. But sadly, technology has not advanced to that point. If it did, I wish there was a recruiting company that I could use to hire that clone for me.

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• 3:16Tom Holland?

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• 3:19Dominic Sandbrook?

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• 4:38Tom Holland?

  Seething with tension in the shadow of Mount Vesuvius, Naples was one of the most glamorous and violent cities on earth. It was a city of churches and opera houses, coffee bars and ice cream parlors, graceful squares and shadowed alleys, elegant mansions and stinking slums. It was home to scholars and thieves, monks and musicians, princesses and dancing girls. It was a hotbed of crime, where a wrong turn could mean a knife in the ribs. But it was also a city of pleasure, where every night was rich with possibility. Above it all, towered the volcano. Sometimes, when it smoldered at night, you could see flashes of fire near the summit

• 5:23Tom Holland?

  and taste the acrid smoke in the air. That was part of the city's glamour, too. The sense of danger, the shadow of death. As the vanguard sailed into the harbour on a bright Saturday morning in September 1798, danger and death were very far from the mind of Nelson. Yet although he could hardly have known it, one of the darkest chapters in his life was about to begin. So that is from one of the great biographies of Admiral Horatio Nelson, Adventures in Time: Nelson, Hero of the Seas, published in paperback this Thursday and written by The Rest is History's very own Dominic Sandbrook.

• 6:07Tom Holland?

  And it describes the moment on Saturday, the 22nd of September 1798, when Horatio Nelson, victor of the Nile, limps into Naples to kick off one of the most melodramatic and blood-soaked and controversial episodes of his entire life. And I say limped because, rather embarrassingly, its masts had been smashed up in a storm and so the vanguard had to be towed into the Bay of Naples. And Dominic, we described this scene in our most recent episode where we were telling the story of Emma Hamilton, the housemaid prostitute, kept mistress who rose from the

• 6:51Tom Holland?

  slums of the Industrial Revolution and London to the palaces of southern Italy. And that rise has put her in pole position to greet Horatio Nelson, the hero of the Battle of the Nile, the most celebrated hero in Britain, Napoleon's most feared enemy, as he arrives into Naples. And if we did Emma Hamilton in our last episode, then last year we did a five-part series on Nelson, didn't we? And this is going to be the continuation.

• 7:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  It is exactly, Tom. So hello, everybody. Many of you will remember that we did that season on Nelson last year. So we traced his story from his birth in 1758 in a Norfolk vicarage. He joined the Royal Navy. As a teenager, effectively, he rose up the ranks. He became a national hero for the first time after showing enormous courage at the Battle of Cape St Vincent.

• 7:50Tom Holland?

  Captures two ships, doesn't he?

• 7:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  Captures two ships, leaping from ship to ship, an amazing swashbuckling scene. And then his kind of patriotic apotheosis, that's where we ended the last series. In 1798, he has pursued the French fleet, the armament, as it was called, across the Mediterranean. He has found them at Abu Khyra Bay, near the mouth of the Nile, and he has destroyed them in this fantastic kind of scene, this night attack. And we will be telling the story in this series of what happens next, the last seven years of his life.

• 8:27Tom Holland?

  And there is so much to say, isn't there? Because we've got the scandalous relationship with Emma, we've got revolution and counter-revolution in Naples, very controversial, we've got the Battle of Copenhagen, where he puts his telescope to his wrong eye. And then, of course, we will be visiting his great victory and death at Trafalgar. So, so much to look forward to.

• 8:50Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, one of the great epics in, I mean, the great epic, a lot of his biographers would argue, in English and in British, kind of military naval and indeed all history, I would say.

• 9:01Tom Holland?

  I think it's, I think it's my favourite story in British history.

• 9:03Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, there's lots of controversial moments on which, Tom, you and I disagree. I think it's fair to say.

• 9:08Tom Holland?

  We're going to disagree agreeably, aren't we?

• 9:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, like they're doing the rest of politics, that's exciting. Anyway, let's remind ourselves where we ended the last series. So Nelson is about to turn 40. He is this famously physically slight and sickly character. He has lost his right arm because he was shot in the elbow and he has lost the sight in one of his eyes, though not the eye itself. I know you want to point out, Tom, that he doesn't look like a pirate.

• 9:36Tom Holland?

  No, he doesn't wear an eye patch.

• 9:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  He wears neither an eye patch nor a sort of hook instead of a hand. I think he would have been better if he'd had, but.

• 9:44Tom Holland?

  Well, important when we come to the Battle of Copenhagen, where he puts his, his telescope to his wrong eye, or does he?

• 9:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly.

• 9:49Tom Holland?

  He's not wearing an eye patch, that's what listeners have to bear in mind.

• 9:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  He has won the Battle of the Nile. He has destroyed Napoleon's fleet. It is the most stunning victory in British naval history. The only reason it's not better known today is because I think it's eclipsed in the public imagination by Trafalgar. Nelson had not lost a single ship. He had captured or destroyed 11 out of the 13 French battleships. This meant that Napoleon was stranded in Egypt, that he was cut off from France, and this victory gave Britain control of the Mediterranean. I mean, arguably, you could argue for a generation and indeed for good.

• 10:26Tom Holland?

  And they had lost that control to the French fleet two years before. So this is a stunning reversal of fortune.

• 10:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly. When the news reached England, there was this explosion of patriotic joy. So his wife, Nelson is, is married, of course. He has a wife called Fanny, whom he met in the Caribbean. She's been waiting with his elderly father, the Reverend Edmund Nelson, and they are delighted when they get the news and everybody's delighted. There are fireworks, there are bonfires, there's flags, there are balls. It is a tremendous moment. It's sort of one of those great memorable national occasions, the news of the Battle of the Nile. Now, George III rewarded Nelson with a barony.

• 11:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  Nelson being Nelson, he has a kind of diva quality. He is disappointed because he wanted a Viscount C.

• 11:14Tom Holland?

  He, I mean, he doesn't get it, does he? Because George III worries that he doesn't have the funds to sustain a Viscount C.

• 11:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly.

• 11:22Tom Holland?

  And Nelson's problems with money will be a kind of running theme through this series. However, the advantage of being a baron, I gather, is that he can, from this point on, sign himself not as Horatio Nelson, but as Nelson.

• 11:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  So he's not gone home. This is an important point. He's staying away for much longer. Why? For a couple of reasons. First of all, his own ships have been badly damaged. So, as you said, Tom, not just the Vanguard, but the Alexander and the Calodden are in a terrible state, and Naples is the kind of nearest, safe, friendly harbour where they can be repaired. But also, Naples is an absolutely crucial ally for Britain in the Mediterranean. Because the Mediterranean, up to this point, has been very much a kind of French lake. And so Britain has been desperate to find and preserve the fragile alliances that it has. So maybe we should talk a little bit about Naples. So you did that lovely reading.

• 12:18Tom Holland?

  And what else is there to say?

• 12:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Do you know what? There's loads to say.

• 12:20Tom Holland?

  Well, take it away.

• 12:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  So Naples is the capital of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, and that's been independent of Austria for about 60 years. Naples is the third biggest city in Europe. It has about a third of a million people living in the shadow of the volcano. As you described, as all Nelson's biographers describe, it has this unique sort of atmosphere that it has, I guess, to this day. This sense of danger and excitement, the sort of narrow alleys, the great palaces, all of this kind of thing.

• 12:51Tom Holland?

  I think it remains to this day that the one city in Europe, that if you go to it as another European, it genuinely feels foreign.

• 12:58Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes. I would, I've always thought the most almost Latin American city in Europe. That sort of atmosphere, extremes of wealth and property, great excitement and exoticism, but also, you know, there's a very good chance you will, you will leave without your wallet. Our Latin American listeners will be so offended by that, actually. I withdraw that comment.

• 13:17Tom Holland?

  Listen, it's a thrilling, faintly dangerous place.

• 13:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly. So it's not really Nelson's kind of place, actually, because Nelson, in many ways, up to this point, has been quite a puritanical character, I would say. He's not a tremendous carouser. He works very hard. He broods. He worries about his health. He's not really the person you would take on a night out, I would say. Would you?

• 13:41Tom Holland?

  He will come to love it. I mean, that's the striking thing, for reasons that we will be exploring.

• 13:46Dominic Sandbrook?

  But he later called it "a country of fiddlers and poets, whores and scoundrels", and that gives you a sense of, I think, how a lot of people in the Royal Navy thought about Naples.

• 13:55Tom Holland?

  Well, I think they see Naples, and indeed Italy, as a kind of seductive woman.

• 14:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly, yes.

• 14:01Tom Holland?

  So Naples, supposedly, it's also named Parthenopei, after one of the sirens who had seduced Odysseus. And that sense of it as a city that seduces and corrupts, again, is an important part of the story, I think.

• 14:13Dominic Sandbrook?

  Now, Nelson has been to Naples before. He went in 1793 during the siege of Toulon, when Admiral Hood, one of his mentors, sent him to ask for supplies and reinforcements. And back then, he made a very favorable impression on the British envoy to Naples, the British minister in Naples, who's Sir William Hamilton, and his wife, Emma, whom you described in our previous episode. So the Hamiltons, we'll come to them. But the other key figures for Nelson are the royal couple, the King and Queen of Naples. Again, we talked about them last time, Ferdinand IV and Maria Carolina. Ferdinand IV, he's this absolute buffoon of a man. He's a total oaf. He forces his coachmen to eat live frogs.

• 14:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  He chases people around with an overflowing chamber pot. He spends all his time hunting. He's Franz Ferdinand without all the good bits, Tom.

• 15:04Tom Holland?

  Yeah, without the good bits. And he talks like a woman.

• 15:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  He does, he's got a high voice.

• 15:09Tom Holland?

  And his wife talks like a man.

• 15:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  Maria Carolina, who is a Habsburg, an Austrian, and importantly, the older sister of Marie Antoinette. Now, she is quite a serious person. She's effectively been running the state for the last 20 years or so. She is smart, she is ruthless, and for her, opposition to France is not merely political, it is personal. "I shall always regard them as the murderers of my sister, Marie Antoinette, as the oppressors of all monarchies, as the villains who have seduced and put dagger and poison into the hands of all classes and peoples against legitimate authority, and who have blighted my existence." This is really, really deep seated with her. Why wouldn't it be? They've killed her sister. It makes sense.

• 15:54Tom Holland?

  I mean, of course, but at the same time, all the social circumstances that had existed in Paris and had fostered revolutionary sentiment exist even more in Naples, because there you have, again, you have a kind of feudal system that is paintedly in decline. And the gap between the very rich in their palazzos, enjoying their classical statuary and so on, and the people in the slums is very, very wide. So, in a sense, Dominic, it's a tinderbox.

• 16:26Dominic Sandbrook?

  I knew the tinderbox was coming. I could just see the tinderbox.

• 16:29Tom Holland?

  The spark of revolution is waiting to be struck.

• 16:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  Four sentences off, I thought, there's a tinderbox coming. Well, here's the interesting thing about Naples, that I think it's important for people to get into their heads. So, on the one hand, you do have very rich, very reactionary people at the top and whatnot, but you also have an enlightened elite. So, a kind of, you know, your liberal metropolitan elite, if you like.

• 16:51Tom Holland?

  Do you know, I heard that phrase coming.

• 16:54Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, of course you did. Of course you did. Well, listen, I mean, there's one thing about the rest is history is, you know, there's only 10 phrases in the English language and we like to use them all often. So, these are people who are, I know this is, I hate to say it, you can see this coming as well, poets, writers.

• 17:11Tom Holland?

  Prune juice drinkers. Do they wear sandals?

• 17:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  Intellectuals of all kinds.

• 17:17Tom Holland?

  Unlike the honest, rough beggars and poor people who love the royal family.

• 17:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, this is, but this is an important distinction, right? On the one hand, you have these people who are called in the, in the books, the Jacobins. I mean, they're not really Jacobins, but that's the label that is kind of attached to them. And they are reformers, they're enlightened, they're infused with the ideals of the French Revolution. They're probably, you know, they're the people who are, who are most similar to the presenters of this podcast. But then on the other hand, you have these people called the Lazzaroni. And these are beggars and street urchins and they're kind of the raucous mob of the streets. Now, they're not quite the same as the sans-culottes in Paris, because as we discussed in our French Revolution series, the sans-culottes are actually not the very poorest, whereas the Lazzaroni are. They, they like to dress very colorfully.

• 18:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  They're the kind of people that if you're going on a grand tour and you go to Naples, they're the people you want to look at, you know, oh, halal, look at their exotic costumes and their sort of filthy ways.

• 18:19Tom Holland?

  And one of, one of the, um, the kind of the attitudes, the shows that Emma Hamilton puts on is to dress up as one of the, the, the urban poor and do a, a native dance.

• 18:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's so tasteful. Oh, that's lovely. That's reflects so well on her, Tom.

• 18:35Tom Holland?

  Well, the queen loves it and the, the people love their queen.

• 18:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  All the rich people love it, no doubt.

• 18:39Tom Holland?

  The people love their queen.

• 18:40Dominic Sandbrook?

  So, but here's the thing, these people do love the king and queen. They are very, very pro-monarchy. They are very, frankly, very reactionary. They're the kind of, the populists of the streets. So you've got this sort of tension. This is the cauldron seething with tension.

• 18:56Tom Holland?

  Bubbling over.

• 18:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's bubbling, it is bubbling, well, not quite bubbling, but it's simmering into which Nelson arrives in September 1798. Now, as we described last time, when the vanguard is towed into the harbour, the city is already celebrating. And the reason it's celebrating is that Naples has lived. In the shadow of the possibility of a French attack, because the French have, since the late 1790s, they've been pouring through Italy, they have taken Rome quite recently.

• 19:24Tom Holland?

  Yeah, just earlier in the year, wasn't it?

• 19:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, and the Neapolitans are frightened that the French will keep going. And they see Nelson, therefore, as their great liberator.

• 19:34Tom Holland?

  But there is, I mean, there is, there is a kind of tension, a problem here for the king and queen, which is obviously they're pro-British, they want to give Nelson the warmest welcome they possibly can. But officially, they're neutral. And if they openly celebrate Nelson, then that might be a kind of casus belli. And this, I think, is where Emma comes in, because she can celebrate Nelson because she herself is British. And her association with the king and queen make it clear that she is kind of speaking for them. And so she organizes this great fiesta, she parades Nelson through the streets in a carriage. And all the crowds go wild for him. And really, the king and queen thereby are unable to have the best of both worlds. They celebrate Nelson, but they don't piss off the French.

• 20:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, although they're pretty blatant themselves. So Ferdinand and Maria Carolina actually greeted Nelson in the harbour and came for breakfast. They had a big breakfast.

• 20:26Tom Holland?

  But it's not public.

• 20:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  I mean, it's not, no, in private, I guess. But the crowds, you know, they're shouting, viva Nelson, nostro libatore.

• 20:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  There are banquets and balls, and of all these balls, which are enormous by Neapolitan standards, the most famous is thrown inevitably by the Hamiltons themselves. So just to remind people, if there's anybody who didn't listen to our last episode. Sir William Hamilton is 67 years old, he's this kind of tall, beaky, cerebral, sophisticated, detached, ironic character, who's been Britain's man in Naples for what, almost 30 years? And Emma, 34, as you said, she is a former prostitute. She's come from an excruciatingly poor and deprived background. And she has advanced, thanks to her charisma and her charm and her sense of glamour, I guess. The excitement that surrounds her, she's a celebrity.

• 21:21Tom Holland?

  She is, she's an international celebrity, like Nelson, of course.

• 21:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, well, we'll see, there are definite similarities. So they throw, for example, a massive party for his birthday, thousands of guests, special crockery decorated with Nelson's monogram. There's this sort of great sense of excitement and Emma. Throws herself into this. So she dresses up in a kind of Nelson themed costume, doesn't she? Yeah. And it is very clear that this, I think, you know, Nelson always, let's be frank, we're great fans of Nelson, but Nelson is far from perfect. So Nelson always had a susceptibility to flattery and a thirst, an insatiable thirst for attention. And for

• 22:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  somebody who has just been on this, you know, this incredibly grueling mission, chasing the fleet across the Mediterranean, then the drama and excitement of the Battle of the Nile, the enemy ship, Lorient, exploding in front of him, hundreds of people being killed, all of this. He's still got concussion, by some accounts, you know, he has been hit in the head, hasn't he, by a-

• 22:30Tom Holland?

  Yeah. So he's got a great chunk of his scalp is missing. Has he got kind of bit of flying metal hit it?

• 22:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  So if you imagine psychologically, right, he arrives in this city, very exciting place, he's greeted by these very glamorous people, he's taken to balls and parties that are all about him, his head is kind of whirling the whole time. And it does, I think, slightly go to his head. I mean, he admits this himself. He says, "It was the most distinguished reception that ever, I believe, fell to the lot of any human being." That's quite a big thing to say of yourself. He, there was a, he wrote to his father at one point and said, "It is enough to make me vain." And I think he's, there's a degree of self-knowledge there. I mean, he's pretty vain, as it, even before it started. But he's also getting presents and things from foreign monarchs. The most famous is the

• 23:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  thing called the shilling, sent to him by the Ottoman Sultan.

• 23:22Tom Holland?

  Well, I mean, let's be honest, he loves bling as well as attention. And the more medals, the more sashes, the more kind of gaudy bits of jewellery that he can attach to his hat, the better. And I do think, so you quoted him writing to his father, who is a vicar, who, you know, lives in a chilly rectory in Norfolk. It's, it's basically the opposite of, of celebrating a victory in Naples with a glamorous international celebrity.

• 23:49Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 23:50Tom Holland?

  And I think that that contrast kind of subliminally is working away in Nelson's mind. And of course, in the long run, it will affect his attitude, not just to his father and to the place that he grew up, but to his wife, Fanny, who is also in this cold and chilly- Norfolk Rectory.

• 24:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  I think that's dead right. I think there's a slight sense here and here, you know, I think listeners can make their own minds up because biographers have done the same. So biographers who are perhaps a little bit more critical of Nelson and of Emma suggest that at this point, there's a kind of dizziness almost, that his head is ringing anyway when he turns up in the harbour, but slightly begins to be turned. Anyway, clearly the key figures in his relationship in Naples are the Hamiltons. So Sir William Hamilton, it's definitely not the ideal point in Sir William Hamilton's career for Nelson to have arrived. Sir William Hamilton is quite old at this point. There's a sense in which he has gone native a little bit. So his loyalties are slightly divided between those to Britain and those to the Neapolitan court to which he's so close.

• 24:54Tom Holland?

  You don't think he would argue that they're indistinguishable, that Naples is the la, you know, I mean, it's the last major power in the Mediterranean allied to Britain. And so therefore it's essential to prop them up. And actually, the Admiralty agrees with this. I mean, this is definitely British policy.

• 25:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  He would definitely make that case. And there is an element of truth in it. And yet I think if you're any diplomat will tell you, you always have to, you always have to understand that there's a, it's a complicated dance, isn't it? Between your superiors in London and the people that you are, especially if, as in this case, the guy who's the king is an absolute buffoon and his wife has very pronounced vested interest and the city's a tinderbox as we have already established.

• 25:38Tom Holland?

  And if, if, if the king's wife, the queen, is best friends with your own wife, which is the state of play with William and Emma Hamilton, because Emma and the queen are absolute besties at this point.

• 25:50Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly, exactly. And I think what's obvious from the very beginning is that for completely understandable reasons, Nelson is besotted with the Hamiltons.

• 26:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  I think Nelson has always, and it's not just Emma, it's Sir William as well, I think. Because I think Nelson has always been somebody, perhaps because his own father, you know, it's clear that you don't think that highly of the Reverend Nelson.

• 26:14Tom Holland?

  No, I do. I mean, I love, you know, I love a vicar. But there's a contrast between a vicar in a chilary rectory and a glamorous and faintly cynical aristocrat who collects erotic freezes from buried Roman cities.

• 26:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  But Nelson has always craved father figures, hasn't he? He's had them all his life, especially in the Navy. Captain Locker, Admiral Hood, Sir John Jervis. You know, he loves a very self-confident, impressive, older man who takes him under his wing.

• 26:48Tom Holland?

  And he wants that man to love him. And William Hamilton, despite everything that is going to happen. I mean, he is devoted to Nelson, which people find very odd in due course. But he, you know, his devotion to Nelson, I think, is absolutely genuine.

• 27:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  Although he's not as devoted as his wife.

• 27:07Tom Holland?

  That's true. That's absolutely true.

• 27:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  So Emma Hamilton, as we've said, a celebrity. She is a very, very glamorous and sexy woman. And she's close to age in Nelson. Well, he's 40, she's in her early to mid 30s. And she makes a huge fuss. I mean, she had fallen into his arms in a sort of mock feint or a real feint. When he arrived in the harbour, oh, God, is it possible you're alive, all this kind of thing. And then when they install him in their house, the Palazzo Sessa, and she makes a great fuss of him, she tends to his wounds, she cuts up his food, because of course he's only got one arm, she pours his wine, she tells everybody, look what a great man he is, all of this kind of thing.

• 27:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  I think you would, almost anybody would have found that very, very flattering. But if you are somebody like Nelson, who, you know, he's been, first of all, he's been at sea for months with no female company. He loves attention. You know, he always has thought that he's a star and he's always had this slight sense, oh, I haven't had the respect that I deserve. Why would this not go to your head? Of course it goes to his heads, I think, a little bit.

• 28:18Tom Holland?

  There's probably no one in Europe better qualified to give him exactly what he wants in terms of adulation. Because Emma, the reason that she's an international star, she has these attitudes, which you think are ludicrous. But I, I mean, basically, the point of them is that they, they bring to life classical statuary or freezes or whatever. And people are stunned by it. So Emma is very, very good at bringing to life scenes from kind of antique heroism. And giving it a kind of massive histrionic charge. And you cannot imagine anything better suited to Nelson's taste, because this is, you know, all his Christmas is coming at once.

• 28:57Tom Holland?

  Not only is he being celebrated as a hero, but he's being celebrated as a hero in the most dramatic and up to date manner possible. By probably the most famous woman in Europe and his cup overflow.

• 29:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  And not merely that, but actually, there is no place in Europe that is better suited to be the backdrop for a kind of theatrical spectacle. And Nelson has always regarded himself to some degree as a character on a stage. You know, maybe playing a classical hero or whatever. And here he is in Naples, in the shadow of Azubius.

• 29:29Tom Holland?

  With this fabulously attractive and famous woman who, so a kind of sample of the way that she addresses him. Joy, joy, joy to you, brave, gallant, immortalized Nelson. This is how she talks to him all the time. And it has to be said, this is not how Fanny back in Norfolk is accustomed to address her husband.

• 29:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  Shall I tell you something, Tom? This is actually what Theo, this is how Theo addresses me behind your back.

• 29:55Tom Holland?

  Yeah, well, I, I know, you were clearly the Emma, I am the Fanny.

• 30:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  Now, here's the funny thing. I think in some ways Nelson is oblivious to the possible implications of this. Because there is a kind of. Boyish innocence to him. And the proof of that.

• 30:12Tom Holland?

  Do you think?

• 30:13Dominic Sandbrook?

  I do, because I think he is, he writes to Fanny and he is so tactlessly open about his.

• 30:21Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 30:22Dominic Sandbrook?

  His relationship with the Hamiltons.

• 30:24Tom Holland?

  Yeah, she's great. I've met this girl. She's brilliant.

• 30:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, this is the thing. He tells the story about Emma falling into his arms in the harbour. You know, he tells that to Fanny in a letter to Fanny. He says, I cannot wait to introduce you to this woman, Emma Hamilton. She's one of the very best women in the world. How few could have made the turn she has. By the turn, he means the progress, the self improvement. She's an honour to her sex, her kindness with Sir William to me is more than I can express. Now, I think if you're planning to have an affair with somebody.

• 30:53Tom Holland?

  I completely agree.

• 30:54Dominic Sandbrook?

  You don't write that to your wife.

• 30:55Tom Holland?

  I completely, at this point, absolutely he isn't. But I mean, Nelson is not an innocent. I mean, he's been conducting an affair with a woman in Livorno, up in the north of Italy for four years. So.

• 31:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, but you can be a man of flesh and blood and yet have this slight, um, you can not sense what's coming. Okay, I don't think he senses what's.

• 31:14Tom Holland?

  Yeah, I mean, I think at this point, the appeal of Emma is that she is saying he's brilliant.

• 31:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes.

• 31:20Tom Holland?

  You know, she's just going on and on about how wonderful you are. You're a hero and all of that. That's the focus. But I wouldn't say that, you know, oh, he's kind of innocent. You know, he is at this point, to reiterate, having an affair.

• 31:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  But he is more innocent than he might be, I would say. I don't think he has any agenda here. So anyway, there's the issue, obviously, his wife Fanny, when she gets these letters is not, she's not exactly over the moon. But there's also a kind of political dimension to this, because as we've said, Sir William and Emma are incredibly close to the royal couple. And that means that Nelson, who has always been a massive sucker for royalty, because listeners will remember in the previous series, he massively sucked up to the future William the Fourth, who was a very boorish.

• 32:04Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 32:05Dominic Sandbrook?

  Bloke in a way that did not endear him to his superiors at the Admiralty.

• 32:08Tom Holland?

  And I think that's another point of correspondence with Emma, who's kind of very much the working class Tory. You know, loves, loves a king and a queen, especially a queen. And Nelson, obviously, instinctively, that those are his politics as well, I think.

• 32:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, I think so. So what that means is that when he gets wind of a Neapolitan plan, a new sort of departure in the war, he is perhaps not as sceptical. As he might otherwise have been. So this plan comes really from Maria Carolina. Remember, she hates the French. Now that the Neapolitans have heard the news of the defeat of Napoleon's fleet in Egypt, they say, gosh, couldn't we launch a counterattack against the French in Italy? Basically, what Maria Carolina wants to do is to send Naples's army north to drive the French out of Rome, which they'd captured in, what is it, February? I think it was. And then push on into Tuscany. And if they can get into Tuscany, then her

• 33:05Dominic Sandbrook?

  family in Austria, the Habsburgs, may well look at this, this is what she's hoping, and rejoin the war. And that will allow them to avenge Marie Antoinette together.

• 33:16Tom Holland?

  I mean, I think this is the great gamble that Nelson takes, really, isn't it? Is that he has to weigh up, will Austria come into the war?

• 33:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 33:25Tom Holland?

  And I think it's not mad to think that they would, because, you know, Maria Carolina is herself Austrian. The Austrian royal family have every reason to hate the French. And the prospect of crushing the French between the two flanks, I mean, this is what Nelson loves to do. It's basically what he'd done at the Battle of the Nile. So you can see why it would appeal to him.

• 33:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  The one thing I will say, though, about Nelson, though, Tom, is that Nelson on, at sea, is unbeatable.

• 33:52Tom Holland?

  Completely.

• 33:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  Nelson on land is always a fiasco. Nelson is a very poor judge of military stuff on land. And the issue is also Naples has no real military tradition. It has no history of winning land battles.

• 34:09Tom Holland?

  But it does have an Austrian general, doesn't it?

• 34:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  It does. And it has an excellent history of exciting, colourful military uniforms. But, but as we knew, as we discovered in our series about the First World War, the more colourful the uniform, usually the worse the army. Anyway, there's a couple of other things. So kicking the French out of Italy has long been a British, a really important British war aim. So you could see why he likes that. He wants to please the Hamiltons. He wants to please the King and Queen. And he has new orders from London. And the new orders from London, this reinforces something you were saying earlier. He must give the most cordial and Limited protection to the King and Queen of Naples and on a quote, most carefully avoid giving them the smallest cause for suspicion, jealousy

• 34:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  or offence. And the irony of this is the Admiralty have sent him these orders because they think Nelson can be proud and tactless and that he might offend the Neapolitan monarchy. What they don't realise is that he will go to the completely the opposite extreme and he will align himself completely with them.

• 35:10Tom Holland?

  Well, it's a reminder of just how far Nelson is from London. And it takes a long time for messages to travel from, say, Naples back to Britain and vice versa. So Nelson really is on his own here. And as you said, he, when it comes to geopolitics and land wars, he is much less confident than he is at sea. On the naval campaign, there is one further issue, which is that Malta is occupied by the French and Nelson is conducting a blockade of Malta because he can see that strategically that will be key as well. Because if they can roll the French out of Italy and secure Malta,

• 35:51Tom Holland?

  then that will absolutely set Britain's mastery of the Mediterranean on very, very solid foundations.

• 35:57Dominic Sandbrook?

  The upshot of this is that Sir William Hamilton, Emma Hamilton are super keen on this expedition. Nelson is very keen on it. Yes, this is the time to strike. Let's do this. So by early October seventeen ninety eight, the preparations are in full swing. The Austrians have have sent them a general to command the army, who is General Mack. They have mustered more than thirty thousand men in very fancy new uniforms. There's a great scene when Maria Carolina, like kind of Elizabeth at Tilbury, rides out to inspire them. She's all dressed up as well.

• 36:31Tom Holland?

  Nelson thinks he's great. I mean, he writes to Fanny and says, oh, she is a great king.

• 36:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  And he also writes to London and says, these are the finest troops in Europe.

• 36:41Tom Holland?

  Yeah, so we will see.

• 36:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  So in fact, a lot of these people, by the way, are peasants from the Italian countryside who have actually never held a musket before. So we'll see how that works out for them. Anyway, on the 22nd of November, in driving rain, this army marches out of Naples on the road that leads north and ahead is Rome and ahead is the most controversial episode of Nelson's life.

• 37:05Tom Holland?

  Brilliant, what a cliffhanger. And we will find out whether the Neapolitan forces sweep the French back into France or whether they don't after the break.

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• 39:50Tom Holland?

  This episode is brought to you by Vanguard. Now, thrillingly, this name Vanguard was inspired by HMS Vanguard, the flagship of none other than Admiral Nelson.

• 40:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  He pursues the French to Abakir Bay on the shores of Egypt for the Battle of the Nile. Saved the world from Napoleon, really, so great scenes.

• 40:10Tom Holland?

  So tremendous record there from Vanguard, a ship that certainly saw no lack of action.

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• 41:03Tom Holland?

  Hello, welcome back to The Rest Is History, and it is November 1798. The Army of Naples, in their splendid uniforms, have marched north to Rome. They've been encouraged by Nelson, by his new pals, the Hamiltons. And the way we set it up, Dominic, before the break, people might think it's going to be a complete fiasco, but actually, initially, it isn't. So they trudge through the rain. Trudgery in the mud, they reach the outskirts of Rome and they find that the French have basically melted away. They're nowhere to be seen. And so on the 29th of November, absolute scenes. King Ferdinand, this boorish oaf who, basically all he can interested in

• 41:43Tom Holland?

  is making footmen eat frogs and going hunting. He rides into Rome in triumph and he's saluted across Europe as, you know, the new Caesar. So the British ambassador in Russia describes him as manly and vigorous, which I don't think he's ever been described as before. And he has a week to celebrate. And then on the 7th of December, oh dear, France declares war on Naples. And what happens then?

• 42:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, nothing good, unfortunately. So the very next day, King Ferdinand, who's been celebrating, hears the news that a French army is marching on Rome. And of course, they have been waiting, thinking, well, maybe the Austrians will pile in.

• 42:20Tom Holland?

  But the Austrians don't, do they? The Austrians completely let them down.

• 42:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  I think it's harsh to blame the Austrians for this. I mean, I don't think we, I think the finger of blame points very squarely at King Ferdinand and the Neapolitan army. Because the first thing he does when he hears news that the French are coming, he immediately summons his carriage, leaps into his carriage.

• 42:37Tom Holland?

  I'm out of here.

• 42:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, let's go back to Naples. Now, and Naples, great banter.

• 42:46Dominic Sandbrook?

  He came, he saw, he fled, which is basically exactly what he did. Now, as for the Neapolitan army, the finest troops in Europe, according to Horatio Nelson, they collapse within hours, some units within minutes.

• 42:59Tom Holland?

  Yeah. Well, you know what Nelson said in the wake of this collapse? He'd been bigging them up before. Now, he says, "The Neapolitan officers have not lost much honour, but God knows, they had but little to lose."

• 43:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  God, he's changed.

• 43:11Tom Holland?

  Yeah, hasn't he?

• 43:13Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, because a lot of them didn't even fire a shot. They ran away straight away. They left all their artillery behind. They left their guns behind. They left their baggage behind. I mean, the French claim this is a great military victory, but to be honest, they're not really fighting anybody because they've all run away.

• 43:26Tom Holland?

  I'm not criticizing them. I'd run away as well.

• 43:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right. Well, okay. So in the next two weeks, the French just keep coming, obviously. They retake Rome, they continue south. So we get to Christmas 1798, Christmas is coming, and the French are basically marching now on Naples. Now, we described Naples as a tinderbox and the match or whatever it is. The bit that is struck has been struck.

• 43:53Tom Holland?

  Even though it's raining.

• 43:54Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right, exactly. So Naples is now, I mean, it was pretty chaotic before. It's now an absolute utter unbridled chaos. The city is crowded with refugees, the local kind of do-gooders, the bien pensant, the enlightened liberal metropolitan elites.

• 44:12Tom Holland?

  The Jacobin they're called.

• 44:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  The Jacobin, they're cockerhoops.

• 44:15Tom Holland?

  And Maria Carolina, I mean, if you're the sister of Marie Antoinette, you kind of know how this ends, right?

• 44:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  So they're holed up in the royal palace at Capo di Monte, Ferdinand and Maria Carolina. He's, you know, gone rampaging around with his chamber pots, like in a massive state. She with her husky voice is kind of taking refuge.

• 44:37Tom Holland?

  Oh no, I'm gonna have my head chopped off.

• 44:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, under the bed, like thinking that she's gonna turn out like Marie Antoinette. Outside in the streets, there are kind of rival gangs and mobs fighting. There's the pillaging and burning has already started. It's a real kind of end of the world kind of scene. And the climax comes, I mean, you, this is, why is there no great film of this? The climax comes on Christmas Eve. The king and queen arrange this lavish banquet, but this has been done to distract people.

• 45:09Tom Holland?

  Cover, isn't it?

• 45:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's cover, because actually they've decided that they will flee to the second capital of the kingdom of the two Sicilies, which is in the real Sicily, which is Palermo.

• 45:19Tom Holland?

  That's confusing, isn't it?

• 45:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  The thing is, they don't trust their own ships to take them because there've been rumours, they've heard reports that republican ideas have been sweeping through the crews.

• 45:29Tom Holland?

  None of that nonsense in the Royal Navy.

• 45:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  Not at all. The person they want to take them is Horatio Nelson. Now remember, not only is he close to them because of the Hamiltons, he's close to them because he's been told by the Admiralty, do not, under any circumstances, let them down at all. So he says, fine, I'll take you and I'll take as much of the royal treasure as you can carry. And so as night falls on Christmas Eve, they kind of scuttle down to the harbour with their bodyguards. Emma Hamilton comes with them. She's in charge of escorting the royal treasure. And Sir William Hamilton.

• 46:04Tom Holland?

  He's got all his vases.

• 46:05Dominic Sandbrook?

  His erotic vases and whatever.

• 46:09Tom Holland?

  And the boats that are sent to pick him up are commanded by somebody who will be featuring later in this series, who is Nelson's flag captain, so on board the Vanguard, a man called Thomas Hardy.

• 46:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  An enormous man, isn't he, Hardy?

• 46:23Tom Holland?

  Enormous, kind of balding man.

• 46:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  He likes flogging people.

• 46:27Tom Holland?

  Well, he does, and we'll come to this. So he takes them all back and the king and queen take Nelson's cabin on board the Vanguard and the Hamiltons take Hardy's and off the ship glides into the darkness. And as they go, they can see flames rising from the shore behind them. And it's not coming from Mount Vesuvius. It's coming from the city that is increasingly ablaze.

• 46:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's like the scene from, if people are familiar with The Godfather Part Two, there's a scene when Al Pacino has to flee Cuba in the Cuban Revolution. And it's this similar sort of atmosphere, kind of the streets full of people, this sense of panic and whatnot. Anyway, things don't get any better for them, do they? Because the next day, Christmas Day, they're in the Bay of Naples and there's a colossal storm. Now, of course, Nelson is used to storms, but his passengers are not. Sir William Hamilton says, so I'm not going to drown. And he retires to his cabin with a loaded pistol and says, I'll blow up my brains rather than kind of sink to the deep.

• 47:31Tom Holland?

  Isn't there one of the ambassadors who's going with them? He has a kind of erotic portrait of his mistress. And he's so worried that he'll drown and go to meet his maker that he throws it overboard, much to his later regret.

• 47:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's mad. That's a very poor choice of action in a storm. Now, the other thing is the royal couple have their youngest son, Prince Carlo Albert, is nine years old. And he's terrified by the storm. And this is a terrible story, actually. He goes into a fit, doesn't he? A kind of convulsive fit that goes on for hours. And he dies in Emma Hamilton's arms. So she's trying to comfort him because she's so close to the family. And she's regarded.

• 48:12Dominic Sandbrook?

  I'm not always the most pro Emma commentator, but she is regarded as having behaved very well. She doesn't lose her composure.

• 48:20Tom Holland?

  She behaves absolutely splendidly. Shall I quote Kate Williams? Refusing to let the experience of being sick defeat her or to droop under the atmosphere of panic, she tried to comfort peevish courtiers who had never known hardship and struggled to keep some kind of order in the rolling ship. And I think you do get there a glimpse of what Nelson admires about her. You know, she is a woman for crisis.

• 48:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  She has spirit, Tom.

• 48:44Tom Holland?

  She has balls.

• 48:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  She has spunk, doesn't she?

• 48:47Tom Holland?

  She does.

• 48:48Dominic Sandbrook?

  She absolutely does. Right. So they survive, they endure the storm. The next day through the rain, they see Palermo, the kind of domes and the churches and the pilate and whatnot. Now, if Naples was sort of glamorous, exotic, a little bit dilapidated, Palermo is all these things on steroids. So even as they disembark, there's these huge crowds of beggars and whatnot. And here in Palermo, they will stay for the next five months.

• 49:21Tom Holland?

  And they're kind of secure, aren't they? Because as long as the Royal Navy maintains command of the seas, the French can't get to Sicily.

• 49:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly.

• 49:29Tom Holland?

  So it is kind of a flight from Varennes, you know, which Louis XVI and Marie Antoinette attempted and were foiled. The Neapolitan royals, they get away. And in fact, what subsequently happens may give us perhaps a flavour of what might have happened in France had the flight to Varennes continued and the king and queen got away.

• 49:48Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, we'll come back to what happens in Naples because that's very colourful. But let's just look at Nelson. So Nelson and the Hamiltons move in together into a Palermo palace called the Palazzo Palagonia.

• 50:01Tom Holland?

  And it has erotic friezes all over the ceilings, showing Zeus getting up to his business.

• 50:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  Of course it does. So Nelson is, I mean, this will be the, I mean, we're going to say this sentence about. Four hundred times in this series. Nelson is absolutely shattered. He is mentally and physically exhausted. His letters home are full of complaints, basically about his poor mental health.

• 50:25Tom Holland?

  And his bowels.

• 50:26Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, he's not, he's not a well man.

• 50:29Tom Holland?

  Yeah, so his mind and his, his, his bowels are both, both shot.

• 50:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  There's a sort of sense, I think, when you sort of read the Nelson biographies, whether John Sugden and Roger Knight and whatnot, I think there's a sense that Nelson is, you know, is he depressed? Is he suffering from PTSD? I mean, maybe this is trying to impose modern labels on to, you know, somebody in the past, which is a bad idea. But when you look at his letters, he writes to a friend of his called Lady Parker, "You who remember me always laughing and gay would hardly believe the change, but who can see what I have and be well in health?" And then to Fanny, "My health is tolerable, but my mind is full of sorrow, not for myself, for I care not, but for my country and the world." And obviously,

• 51:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  it's been a terrible embarrassment and disappointment to him that the Neapolitan army has behaved so badly and they've had to scuttle back to Palermo. But also the fact, I think, that it comes so soon after the Battle of the Nile, his great triumph. He's, you know, his sort of, if you were to plot his mental state on a graph, it'd be all over the place, up and down.

• 51:33Tom Holland?

  Well, I think also he, he feels isolated and alone. He's a long way from London and he's acting commander in chief in the Mediterranean and there are all these terrible decisions he has to make without really anyone to advise him.

• 51:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, you say without really anyone.

• 51:50Tom Holland?

  Well, he does, of course. There are the Hamiltons. And it's probably around now, say, first months of 1799, that he, he finds in Emma an increasing source, not just of advice, but of comfort.

• 52:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  Comfort, yeah.

• 52:07Tom Holland?

  And what I think gives the game away is that he starts buying her props for her attitudes.

• 52:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  That is such a bad sign, I have to say.

• 52:18Tom Holland?

  And it's not long before both of them are kind of mooning over one another, giving each other pet names. You do it, no, you do it, no, you do it, all that kind of stuff.

• 52:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  God.

• 52:32Tom Holland?

  And there's obviously kind of a very intense physical attraction. But I do think also, we've touched on this before, they have very similar personalities. They're both very charismatic, they're both very famous, they're both very histrionic. They're both very prone to depression, but they are also very determined, bold, aggressive, I think, in their kind of instincts. And you can see why they get on. And above all, the reason that Nelson thinks Emma is brilliant is that Emma thinks Nelson is brilliant. So she's, you know, you said how Nelson's disappointed that he isn't made a Viscount. So she writes to him and says, if I was King of England, I would make you the most noble

• 53:13Tom Holland?

  puissant, Duke Nelson, Marquess Nile, Earl Alexander, Viscount Pyramid, Baron Crocodile and Prince Victory, that posterity might have you in all forms. You could see why this would appeal to someone who is always hungry for recognition and praise.

• 53:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  I think there are a couple of things. I think one of them is they both crave attention and they crave attention from other talented and driven people. So I think that's part of it. They feed that. I think both of them feed in each other something else, which you might say is a little bit darker, which is a sense, oh, the world is against me. And Nelson has always had a strain of self pity, hasn't he? There's always been a side of him that falls out with superiors at the Admiralty or whatever because he thinks he isn't getting his due. And Emma, I think, is the kind of partner, you know, the kind of partner who says to you, now, come on, put this into perspective, you know, calm down.

• 54:08Tom Holland?

  You're brilliant.

• 54:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, but she is the kind of partner who says, you're totally right. They should be festooning you with honours, you know, all of this. And she will always, always do that to him and him to her. And they both love it. It's what they want more than anything, I would say.

• 54:25Tom Holland?

  And she, of course, has had a very hard life. I mean, you know, hard beyond Nelson's wildest dreams. And again, I think he respects what she's made of herself.

• 54:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, he mentioned the turn, didn't he? The turn she's made in his letter to Fanny. So quite early on, there are rumours and whispers in the fleet.

• 54:43Tom Holland?

  So on the 16th of January, so they'd only been in Palermo for, what, three weeks? Another British captain called George Hope left Palermo on the Alcmeni and he went to Gibraltar. And when he got to Gibraltar, he said to other officers, Nelson is idling in Palermo and making himself ridiculous with Lady Hamilton. Now, at about the same time, a slightly baleful figure in Nelson's life, Admiral Lord Keith, who is an absolutely textbook casting agency, de formidable Scotsman, not the kind who would be impressed by Emma's attitudes.

• 55:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  Not at all. He arrives in Gibraltar and he writes home to his sister and he says, everybody says Nelson is cutting the most absurd figure possible for folly and vanity. There's a French officer called Dama, who's actually was serving the Neapolitans, confusingly, and he writes around the same time, Nelson's officers are increasingly mortified and disgusted by his behaviour with the Hamiltons. Now, the question which historians, biographers have grappled with, which I think Tom and I probably, we have different opinions about, and indeed Nelson's officers and comrades had different opinions at the time, is how much is this people projecting a kind of misogyny and a snobbery onto the Nelson Emma

• 56:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  relationship? And how much is it, you know, his genuinely slightly nauseating mooning and showing off and victimhood and blah, blah, blah?

• 56:09Tom Holland?

  I think there is definitely a strong vein of misogyny here. So to look at Keith, Keith is arriving to take Nelson's place as commander in chief. There are going to be disagreements over Nelson's strategy. Nelson has based himself in Palermo because he sees it as a launchpad for reconquering Naples and for maintaining the blockade of Malta. Keith doesn't think that this is a valid reason. So there is a kind of deep seated strategic disagreement there. But it's easier for Keith to cast Nelson's reasons for being in Palermo, that he's kind of playing Antony to Emma's Cleopatra. And it's turbocharged, I think, by what we were talking about earlier, this idea that Naples and Italy and Palermo

• 56:54Tom Holland?

  are like kind of whores seducing honest British tars and corrupting them. And actually, you know, the very idea of Parthenope, the siren, kind of luring sailors onto the rocks. I think that all of this is kind of bubbling away. And in a sense, it becomes easier for Both Nelson's critics and his admirers in the Royal Navy to blame Emma for this.

• 57:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 57:19Tom Holland?

  Which casts Nelson himself as a very, very supine figure, ludicrously supine, rather than engage the fact that actually this is about issues of strategy and questioning Nelson's judgment as a naval and military figure.

• 57:34Dominic Sandbrook?

  But a quick counter argument, and I know we don't want to get massively bogged down in this, but one might be, you might say, they don't just blame Emma. So actually, a lot of this is about blaming Nelson himself. So I think there is probably a degree, I mean, there's no doubt there's a degree of misogyny in the way, and snobbery in the way that people talk about Emma. But that doesn't necessarily mean that there's no kernel of truth in this as well, and that perhaps Nelson is slightly, you know, the mooning and whatnot, maybe that is slightly embarrassing for a lot of his comrades. I think the other thing is that it's not just about, I mean, clearly, Emma begins to undermine the idea of the band of brothers that has been so important to Nelson.

• 58:18Tom Holland?

  She is Yoko to the Beatles.

• 58:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  I knew that comparison was coming. Before we'd even, before I even embarked on the research for this, I knew.

• 58:26Tom Holland?

  I've been very predictable in this episode.

• 58:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  But I think what she stands for, which is a kind of showiness, I mean, obviously, the attitudes are about show and about spectacle and whatnot, that for some of these people who are ingrained in the values of the service, duty, responsibility, you know, I was going to say sobriety, that's not really the right word for the Royal Navy.

• 58:48Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 58:48Dominic Sandbrook?

  You know what I mean?

• 58:49Tom Holland?

  Well, there's a very interesting episode, and you talked about Captain Hardy, he's a great flogger at maintaining discipline. Emma has a reputation among the seamen, the common seamen, as someone who is a woman of compassion, who can be appealed to. And there are men who are condemned by Hardy to be flogged, they appeal to Emma, and Hardy then flogs them twice, both for the original crime and because they appealed, you know, over his head to Emma Hamilton. And you can see exactly why that would infuriate Nelson's captains.

• 59:22Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah. It's that thing, if you've read, anyone who's read the Master and Commander books, the Patrick O'Brien books, there is nothing more destabilising to a ship, a lot of people argue, than when you have a very glamorous, attractive woman on board and it turns some people's heads and it starts to mess with the chain of command and all of this kind of thing. There's that. There's also something else you alluded to earlier, which is Nelson's love of bling. And I think there's a sense that some people think Nelson is starting to become a little bit un-British.

• 59:49Tom Holland?

  A little bit Italian.

• 59:50Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, he's hanging around with Italians. He's got this massive feathered ornament in his hat sent to him by the Sultan. All of this sort of stuff. Now, has Nelson therefore completely lost the plot? I think that would be very harsh, as Andrew Lambert says in his biography. You know, Nelson is exhausted. He may well still have concussion. He has been through this military trial in the Battle of the Nile and the chase. That if it happened today, you know, anyone who'd been through it, you would say, gosh, they must have PTSD, they must have this, that and the other. So probably he is a bit dizzy, as it were, kind of morally and intellectually and emotionally dizzy, and that's not necessarily surprising.

• 1:00:34Tom Holland?

  But also, he's failed because he had backed the Republicans to attack Rome, and now that seems to have collapsed. And it looks as though everything he'd been trying to do with the stabilisation of Italy is ashes. And that must make, I mean, that's terrible for him. He's now got Admiral Keith turning up, whose talent for man-management isn't all it could be, I think making him feel a failure. And in Palermo, he doesn't really have a kind of secretariat. He doesn't have people on hand who he can turn to. So I can entirely understand the degree of pressure that he's under.

• 1:01:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  Tom is very much, Nelson would love you, Tom. You don't like to hear a word against Nelson.

• 1:01:16Tom Holland?

  Well, we are approaching the most controversial episode in Nelson's career, and I will have things to say about that. But I do generally feel, I mean, the reason why Nelson is such a remarkable figure is that firstly, he is genuinely heroic. Brilliant Admiral. He never lets up on that.

• 1:01:36Tom Holland?

  And secondly, I think he is genuinely a man of honour. And what happens in Italy is a drag on that reputation. He starts to betray his wife, but also he gets led by the swirl of Italian power politics into a whirlpool that doesn't leave him looking quite as honourable as I think in the main he tends to be.

• 1:02:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  Okay, well, let's get into this. So what's been going on in Naples while he's been swanning around in Palermo with Emma? The French have occupied the city. They've cracked down on the Lazaroni. They've abolished the monarchy. They've set up a new Parthenopian republic run by the poets and writers and whatnot, the so-called Jacobau. As we said, this is an elite from quite a narrow social group. So intellectuals, people who are Freemasons, people who are merchants. The majority of the Neapolitan population are very Catholic, quite small c conservative and monarchist. And outside the city, this new regime has very little support at all.

• 1:02:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  And there are immediately rebellions all over rural Calabria. Now, King Ferdinand, seething in his sort of oafish way in Palermo, thinks brilliant, and he sends an agent to lead this fight back. And this guy is a former treasurer to the papacy in his 50s called Cardinal Ruffo. Ruffo has never commanded an army before, but he's a smart guy. He knows what he's doing. He lands on the mainland in early February. He raises the standard of the Holy Cross. He says, come on, fight for your church, fight for your king. And he recruits 20,000 volunteers who are called the soldiers of the army of the holy faith, and these are the San Fedisti.

• 1:03:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  And these are, I think riffraff is probably the most generous way to refer to them. They are kind of ruffians.

• 1:03:34Tom Holland?

  Ruffo's riffraff.

• 1:03:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, they're kind of bandits, criminals and whatnot. And they're like, great, all restraints are off, we're going to enjoy this. They advance through Calabria. When they get into a town, they take town after town, they will loot and pillage, they lynch people. If they find somebody who kind of speaks French, who's a Freemason, who's got republican or reformist sympathies.

• 1:03:58Tom Holland?

  String him up.

• 1:03:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  String him up, exactly. If they've basically, if they can't find them, they'll string some other people up anyway, just for the fun of it.

• 1:04:05Tom Holland?

  And Cardinal Ruffo is, I mean, he's very upset about this, but there's not a lot he can do.

• 1:04:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  There's nothing he can do.

• 1:04:12Tom Holland?

  Because his riffraff are riffraffing.

• 1:04:14Dominic Sandbrook?

  They're not going to listen to him. Anyway, by the beginning of May 1799, they pretty much surrounded Naples. This republic is clearly doomed. The French troops, the French garrison, they hole up in the Castel Sant'Elmo, which overlooks the city. And the so-called Jacobin, they hole up in two other castles on the waterfront, the Castel Delovo and the Castel Novo. And basically, they know if the Sanfedis to get into the city and get hold of us, they will literally tear us to pieces. Cardinal Ruffo, to his credit, it's like, I don't really want to see the city destroyed. I don't want a massive bloodbath. And to cut a very long and incredibly complicated story short, he effectively

• 1:04:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  wants to do a deal with the Jacobin. They'll surrender, they'll come out of the castles, we'll put them on boats in the harbour, and they can go off to Toulon, France, and we'll be rid of them forever, and there won't be any more killing. And Ferdinand and Maria Carolina clearly do not like this idea, because it's really important to them that the ringleaders in particular are punished, that they cannot be allowed to get away scot-free.

• 1:05:21Tom Holland?

  And particularly those who they feel have personally betrayed them.

• 1:05:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 1:05:24Tom Holland?

  And there's a kind of a representative figure of that class of person, who's a guy called Francesco Caracciolo. And he's an aristocrat from Naples, who had actually served with the Royal Navy, both against the Americans in the War of Independence, in the Napoleonic Wars. And he had helped to escort the royal family from Naples to Palermo, had then gone back to Palermo, and had joined the revolution. So he's a kind of representative of the kind of man that the king and queen are desperate to see punished.

• 1:05:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly. Now, they want somebody to handle this personally, because they don't trust Ruffo to do it. And so on the 10th of June, King Ferdinand asks Nelson, can you sail back to Naples, please? Supervise the retaking of the city and handle this issue of the Jacobin in these castles. Now, Nelson has a choice to make here, but his orders from London, to be fair to him, are pretty clear. You know, give the king and queen what protection they need and to repeat, avoid giving them the smallest cause for suspicion, jealousy or offence. So two days later, he sets off for Palermo with a small army. Now, while he's sailing, Naples

• 1:06:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  descends into total utter chaos. Ruffo's army break into the city. They begin the kind of sack of the city. Thousands of buildings ransacked and burned. Hundreds of people, I mean, we can't be sure, but hundreds of people are slaughtered. Basically, if you look vaguely kind of liberal, in other words, if you, for example, have short hair, which is a sign of republican sympathies, kind of Roman haircut, then there's a good chance that somebody will impale you on a pike and carry you through the streets. So basically, these Jacobin, the castles were in a total funk. They beg Ruffo for a deal and they end up signing this, what's called a capitulation, on the 22nd of June. It's basically this,

• 1:07:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  they'll come out the castles, they'll give over any weapons they have. Ruffo will let them go to Toulon and that will be the end of that. And when Maria Carolina hears this, she is absolutely furious. Can I read out what she tells Emma? You're gonna do it in her voice? Yeah.

• 1:07:42Speaker 05

  It's a masterpiece of infamy, so infamous and absurd that it revolts me even to speak of it.

• 1:07:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  See, do you know what? I know that you're in touch with Edouard Habsburg, the bearer of the Habsburg torch. He would be very offended that you've done a Habsburg accent in that way. I don't think so at all. As a sort of character from Oliver. She has the body of a woman, but the voice of a man. Right. Well, anyway, three days after that, so on the 25th, Nelson arrives in Naples with 18 ships at the line and he now has a big decision to make. On the one hand, Cardinal Ruffo had no authority to do this deal with the Jacobin. They're actually still in these castles. They haven't come out yet. So Nelson could say, well, this deal is a nothing deal. It's null and void. You're still in rebellion and you deserve exemplary punishment.

• 1:08:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  On the other hand, honour might demand that the deal has been agreed and you honour the deal. And clearly the Jacobin in the castles themselves think the deal is still on because the very next day, the 26th, they march out of the castles as agreed, they hand over their weapons and they're escorted to Neapolitan ships waiting in the harbour. So they're thinking, brilliant, thank God we've come out of this for their lives.

• 1:08:56Tom Holland?

  And these are thousands of people, right? I mean, you know, five to 10,000 people, something like that.

• 1:08:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  Exactly, exactly. And they assume, as per the deal, we're on our way to Toulon. The Republic hasn't worked out. Thank goodness this has ended without a terrible bloodbath.

• 1:09:08Tom Holland?

  And we can rely on Admiral Nelson as an Englishman, man of honour, given his word, all of that. Well, he hasn't given his word, has he? But you know.

• 1:09:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, but he will.

• 1:09:17Tom Holland?

  That, I guess, is, you know, he's not going to just string them up.

• 1:09:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's exactly what they think. Now, two days after that, Nelson orders that some of the Jacobin start to be transferred to British ships in the harbour, to Royal Navy ships. And at the same time, other prisoners are being brought aboard from the city. These are people who have been rounded up by the kind of the riffraff mobs. And this is clearly a great shock to the Jacobin who are being brought aboard the British ships and is a shock to Nelson's own captains. Every source that we have on this has an agenda, has a different agenda. So, you know, you have to be a little bit careful. But according to

• 1:10:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  the British consul, Charles Locke, admittedly not a fan of Nelson, he described how two of Nelson's captains, Samuel Hood and Benjamin Halliwell, immediately went to Nelson and said, this is not right at all. Like, these people thought they were effectively under our protection. Either we should let them go to Toulon as agreed, or if we're not going to do that, we should let them go back to the castles and basically resume the siege, like have a fair fight of it. This is not honourable. It's a breach of faith with them. Crucially, it's not how we behave in the Royal Navy. You know, this is not what we should do. And this, to me, does have the ring of plausibility, that Nelson snaps at them and he says. I see you all against me, the slight self pity that he often has.

• 1:10:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  I'm determined to obey my orders, right or wrong, it shall be done, I will be obeyed. To me, that is the tone of somebody who actually feels a little bit guilty about what he's doing. And knows it's not entirely honorable, but feels he's trapped and he has no choice.

• 1:11:00Tom Holland?

  So what to make of this? I mean, there are a very, very broad range of opinions on this, right?

• 1:11:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 1:11:08Tom Holland?

  Because the upshot is a series of executions.

• 1:11:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, yeah. So let's get, if we get into the executions, so we mentioned. Caracciolo, the admiral, the who's they say is a traitor.

• 1:11:20Tom Holland?

  And he's been hiding out disguised as a peasant. So he gets dragged in front of Nelson in his rags.

• 1:11:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, Nelson convenes a court martial, remember, this is on a British ship.

• 1:11:30Tom Holland?

  And he'd been serving with the Royal Navy.

• 1:11:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah. So a lot of Nelson's, you know, officers are looking at this guy with sympathy. You know, they, he's their old comrade. He is, this court martial, he's found guilty and is sentenced to be hanged. And some of Nelson's officers say to him, could you not at least commute the sentence so that he's shot? You know, he can die in a more decorous, dignified way. And Nelson, and some of the others say, why not hold off on this? Wait for King Ferdinand to arrive in Naples, maybe he'll pardon this guy. Or maybe, you know, he'll take the decision himself and it won't be on us. And Nelson says, no, I'm not going to wait, like I've got my orders. Caracciolo is hanged from the yardarm, he hangs there until sunset and then his body is thrown into the sea.

• 1:12:17Tom Holland?

  And they weigh him down and then subsequently it bobs back up again.

• 1:12:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yes, and it's floating around for ages.

• 1:12:24Tom Holland?

  Looking all kind of white, white and green.

• 1:12:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  One British lieutenant says, this, I have to say, this amused me, which I probably shouldn't have done. The seamen of our fleet consoled themselves that it was only an Italian prince and the Admiral of Naples that was hanging. A person of very light estimation compared with the lowest man in a British ship. The bulldog spirit there. Now that sets the tone for what follows. The French troops are allowed to go to Toulon. You know, they are like when they evacuate their forts.

• 1:12:52Tom Holland?

  Yeah, because they're prisoners of war, I guess would be Nelson's thinking.

• 1:12:56Dominic Sandbrook?

  They're not traitors.

• 1:12:57Tom Holland?

  Yes.

• 1:12:58Dominic Sandbrook?

  So maybe, I mean, who can say, maybe 8,000 people or so are put on trial.

• 1:13:03Tom Holland?

  And Nelson himself is not embroiled in that process, is he?

• 1:13:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  No, but some of them are tried on board his flagship.

• 1:13:09Tom Holland?

  Of course. Well, Nelson approves of it. I mean, he thinks it's tremendous. I mean, he says he congratulates himself on driving the French to the devil and in restoring peace and happiness to mankind. And undoubtedly, he sees this process of executions as being part of that process of restoring peace and happiness to mankind. But he's not, it's not as it had been, say, with Caraccioli, that he is personally handling the legal process.

• 1:13:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  No. I mean, the execution, so the number of people who are executed, there are very different estimates. Maybe about 3,000 people are put into prison, maybe about 100, 120, 150 are executed. The executions are often pretty grim. If you're lucky, you'll have your head chopped off. If you're unlucky, you're basically put onto a ladder with a rope around your neck. And then street urchins will cling to your feet to hang you effectively. So it's not the best way to die. Ferdinand and Maria Carolina are delighted with all this. They hand out rewards to Nelson's captains, to his crews, you know, lots of bling. Nelson gets loads more bling himself. He gets a diamond studded sword that once belonged to Louis XIV.

• 1:14:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  And above all, as his chief reward, he gets his dukedom. He's made the Duke of Bronte, which is a town in Sicily, in the foothills of Mount Etna, which becomes enormously important to Nelson. The weird thing is, he never, ever visits it.

• 1:14:37Tom Holland?

  He dreams of retiring there, though, doesn't he?

• 1:14:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:40Tom Holland?

  Like a British advertising executive retiring to Provence.

• 1:14:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's exactly what it is. He, in his mind, it is like a kind of, you know, a sort of a house in Provence or whatever. In reality, it's rather run down, I think, and he'd have found it very disappointing.

• 1:14:55Tom Holland?

  He employs a very effective land agent who I think whips it into some kind of shape. But I agree, I don't think it's not Provence.

• 1:15:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  And he always, from this point on, would signs himself, Nelson and Bronte.

• 1:15:05Tom Holland?

  Of course he does.

• 1:15:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  And again, this is the kind of thing that to some people in Britain is just a bit embarrassing. You know, come on, you should be above this kind of thing.

• 1:15:14Tom Holland?

  I mean, we know how Nelson feels about it, that the King of Naples has rewarded him in a way that, that, you know, his Britannic Majesty has significantly failed to do.

• 1:15:22Dominic Sandbrook?

  Now, news of these executions begins to spread quite quickly. And I mentioned a guy, I think earlier, called Charles Locke, who is the British consul. He has turned against Nelson and Emma, in particular because his wife hates Emma. And it's Locke who is the key person in spreading the news of the executions in Britain. He writes home and he says, Nelson's completely lost the plot. He is an accessory to this bloodthirsty vengeance in a very un-British way, and he's been encouraged by Emma, who is a total and utter monster. And we know that the gossip spread very quickly because, for example, within a few

• 1:16:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  weeks, society kind of wig hostess called Lady Bespro is writing, I am miserable at the accounts I've read of the cruelties at Naples, but worst of all, that my dear delightful Nelson should have let himself be drawn in to so disgraceful an action. I hope the account's not true, as I've only read it in the newspapers, for I cannot bear it.

• 1:16:23Tom Holland?

  So this is the great blot on Nelson's escutcheon.

• 1:16:28Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 1:16:28Tom Holland?

  This is without a doubt the most controversial episode in his career. I mean, the most notorious. And so there's a kind of a range of perspectives on it, isn't there?

• 1:16:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah. Again, I think it's a thing, it's one of these things that the listeners can make up their own minds to some degree. But if you start at one extreme, Andrew Lambert, very great naval historian, he says, not only did Nelson do nothing wrong, Nelson behaved absolutely brilliantly. Lambert says, the death toll was trifling, that's a direct quote. The penalty for a failed rebellion in time of war was well understood. He says, these people were basically the enemies of all that is good and right. They had it coming. They knew what was, when they had their rebellion, they knew what was coming. Why is there anything to debate here? Nelson absolutely did the right thing. Then in the middle, you have John Sugden, who's, you know, Titanic Nelson biography is

• 1:17:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  probably the definitive one. He says Nelson's in an impossible situation here. He can either, you know, his orders are to stick to the King and Queen of Naples. What can he do? You know, he can't really get out of it. And then you have more critical Roger Knight. Roger Knight says, you know, this is the one moment in Nelson's career when he doesn't measure up. If he'd been smart, if he'd been more experienced, more measured, more reflective, he would have played for time. He would have waited till King Ferdinand arrived in Naples, and then he'd have let the king do it all. And he wouldn't have done it on British ships and all of this kind of thing. And he sort of let himself down there. And Roger Knight says, this is because,

• 1:18:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  and I quote, his naive attachment to the point of sycophancy to the Hamiltons and to Maria Carolina. And that this is definitely a black mark. And there's actually a more even more critical take, isn't there? Is it Jonathan North?

• 1:18:19Tom Holland?

  Yes. So his book came out just before the pandemic. So 2018, I think, called Nelson at Naples. And he's basically read every conceivable source there is on this topic. And his conclusion is actually very damning. And so to quote him, my view, after having looked at as much of the material as possible, is that Nelson did indeed commit a crime at Naples and was guilty of betraying the prisoners. So I, and I, you know, his, it's a very, very comprehensive analysis of the sources. And, you know, I'm convinced by it. At the same time, I do also think that Sugden's point has value, that this is a chaotic and turbulent

• 1:19:00Tom Holland?

  situation. I think Nelson makes the wrong decision. But I can understand the stresses that perhaps led him to behave in a less honorable way than was his norm. But I do think he committed war crimes. I do think he was at fault.

• 1:19:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  I don't know what I think about this, to be brutally honest. I guess the truth is the most damning thing is not what any historian thinks or what we think. It's what Nelson's own contemporaries thought. And we know that some of Nelson's friends and comrades in the Royal Navy thought he behaved poorly, don't we? And I think the fact that his own captains, members of his kind of band of brothers, said, you know, you don't have to do this. And to do it on a British ship, it's just not right. When they've guys have been promised safe passage, it's just not right. I feel that that's pretty overwhelming.

• 1:19:55Tom Holland?

  Yeah, and this is clearly part of the climate of opinion. Even in the wake of Trafalgar, Nelson's death is apotheosis. So the first kind of celebrated biography of Nelson, written by Robert Southey, poet laureate, great enemy of Byron, who's very laudatory, thinks Nelson is brilliant. But he does say about this episode that it is a stain on the memory of Nelson and upon the honour of England.

• 1:20:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 1:20:18Tom Holland?

  And I think that people admire Nelson so much that they don't want to believe it's true. I don't know if you've read Barry Unsworth's novel, Losing Nelson, which is about a kind of scholar of Nelson, a biographer of Nelson, who's so obsessed by him that he's driven mad by the possibility that Nelson might have behaved poorly. And I think that, you know, biographers of Nelson, I think, are very reluctant to face up to the possibility that he might have got things so badly wrong. And I think that's true of his contemporaries as well, of his captains, of his friends.

• 1:20:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  So for me, one easy fix, as it were, is to say even heroic and impressive people have feet of clay. And in time of war, where you're making, you know, impossible decision after impossible decision, you know, there's every chance that you'll get one or two of them wrong and that they'll look very dishonorable and have terrible consequences. I mean, that's the nature of commanding in a time when hundreds of people's, thousands of people's lives depend upon your decisions.

• 1:21:16Tom Holland?

  But Dominic, of course, there is another fix, which is to blame everything on a woman. And there is a convenient woman to hand who can be blamed.

• 1:21:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, so this starts straight away. So we mentioned the story spreading in England. Lady Holland, of all people, Tom, wrote in her journal a few weeks later. Naples now exhibits a scene of revenge more bloody than the Sicilian vespers. Lady Hamilton has not been remiss in adding her quota to the barbarity which inflames every breast. Now, I know this has been quite a long episode, so we don't have time to delve massively into all this. But it's pretty clear that quite soon after the story is spread, people started to say, oh, it's all Emma Hamilton's fault. She's so close to the Queen, she was adding names to the list, she was celebrating while the executions were taking place. All of this kind of thing.

• 1:22:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  Maybe she was, but I think it's probably exaggerated and probably. I mean, here's a case where I think quite clearly there's an awful lot of projection, a lot of Lady Macbeth kind of stuff going on.

• 1:22:20Tom Holland?

  Yes, absolutely. And I think also there is clear evidence that actually, you know, we talked about Emma trying to get the men who are being flogged by Captain Hardy off their punishment. She is clearly, she's so close to the Queen, people are coming to her with requests and she is asking for people to be let off. She, you know, she gives the Queen a kind of long list, she adds to it herself. The Queen says, no, you're far too soft hearted. Equally, I think there are times when she is upset on behalf of the Queen or she feels, say with Caraccioli, who she toasts his execution.

• 1:22:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  With a wine glass in hand, right?

• 1:23:01Tom Holland?

  With a wine glass in her hand. And I think she feels that he's been a traitor both to, you know, her beloved Royal Navy and to her beloved Queen. So I, and I think she's a very emotional woman who clearly swings between toasting the execution of an admiral and kind of going to someone who she's very close to, namely the Queen, and saying, please let all these people off and being rebuffed. But I think there's probably enough there, you know, raising a toast to the execution of an admiral, who lots of people on Nelson's ships would have known, you can see how these stories would have spread.

• 1:23:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  So, Tom, this is so disappointing because this was set up to be a massive argument. And actually, we've both ended up taking much more measured positions. We've basically turned into the rest is politics after all.

• 1:23:43Tom Holland?

  We have, we're agreeing agreeably.

• 1:23:46Dominic Sandbrook?

  Oh, no, right, but.

• 1:23:50Dominic Sandbrook?

  What lies behind this is what we'll be coming to next time. Because what lies behind all this is the deepening relationship between Nelson and Emma Hamilton. Because as we have said, at some point in the early months of 1799, they have begun an affair. And as we look ahead to the next episode, Nelson is preparing, he will eventually return to England, and there he will face perhaps the most threatening and implacable adversary of his life. It is, of course, not the French, it is the disapproval and derision of the British people.

• 1:24:28Tom Holland?

  Well, unbelievable excitement. What a, what a cliffhanger. And if you want to hear all five subsequent episodes, then you can do that by going to therestishistory.com and signing up there. But for now, I will say goodbye.

• 1:24:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  Goodbye.

• 1:24:52Speaker 06

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