568. Hannibal: Rome's Greatest Enemy (Part 1)

Who was Hannibal, the flawed but brilliant Carthaginian general? What makes Rome vs Carthage in the third century BC one of the most totemic ancient rivalries of all time? How did Hamilcar, father of Hannibal, restore the fortunes of Carthage following their devastating defeat to the Romans in 264 BC? And, what personal tragedy spurred Hannibal on to seize his destiny by the reins, take command of the Carthaginian army, and at last set out to have his vengeance on Rome? Join Tom and Dominic as they launch into the early life and rise of Hannibal; bane of Rome and master of Carthage, as the famous feud between those two greatest of cities gathers momentum... The Rest Is History Club: Become a member for exclusive bonus content, early access to full series and live show tickets, ad-free listening, our exclusive newsletter, discount book prices on titles mentioned on the pod, and our members’ chatroom on Discord. Just head to therestishistory.com to sign up, or start a free trial today on Apple Podcasts: apple.co/therestishistory. For more Goalhanger Podcasts, head to www.goalhanger.com _______ Twitter: @TheRestHistory @holland_tom @dcsandbrook Producer: Theo Young-Smith Assistant Producer: Tabby Syrett + Aaliyah Akude Executive Producers: Jack Davenport + Tony Pastor Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:03Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by TikTok. We obviously love history here. It's always a treat to make a new discovery, especially in unexpected ways.

• 0:12Tom Holland?

  Which is exactly what happens on TikTok. Like, you know coffee? You make it, add milk, drink it. Nothing more, except...

• 0:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  Except, when you hop on TikTok, you don't just learn how to make an authentic cappuccino. You can also discover videos about how in the 1700s, people would pour their coffee into saucers to let it cool before drinking it.

• 0:39Tom Holland?

  And suddenly, you're imagining how people lived, drank, socialised. Makes you wonder what will baffle historians about us. And that's the joy of TikTok. You look for one thing and find yourself somewhere completely different.

• 0:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  Your next discovery is waiting on TikTok. Visit tiktok.com/discovermore.

• 1:07Tom Holland?

  This episode is brought to you by AutoTrader. Now, if car shopping feels like a massive faff, buying your car online at AutoTrader makes it way easier, really.

• 1:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  So you can shop loads and loads of cars online. You can compare prices. You can check the financing and trade-in options. And of course, you can do it from wherever you are. You start online, go to the dealer for your test drive, and finish wherever works for you. Your information, your data stays with you, so there is no starting over. Plus, you are working with local dealers, and there are real people there to help.

• 1:45Tom Holland?

  So buy your car online on AutoTrader, really.

• 1:52Dominic Sandbrook?

  This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Right now, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. So go to mintmobile.com/history. Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20GB of hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 2:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  My reality, he says, is I wake up and go, I haven't done the Hannibal trilogy. He first started talking about this 18 years ago. His desire to make a trilogy about Hannibal Barker, the Carthaginian general, one of the greatest wartime generals in history, the man who in 218 B.C. led a troop of elephants over the Alps to invade Italy. I promised myself I would try to make the Hannibal trilogy. Part of creating mythology in Riddick and creating worlds like Faust in some bizarre way was preparation for the ultimate task. He will do it, he says.

• 3:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  So that's a profile of the actor Vin Diesel, one of your favourite actors, Tom, in Men's Health in 2021. So in that article, Vin Diesel is talking about his great ambition to do a trilogy about the life of Hannibal, the Carthaginian general. And four years on, Diesel has not yet delivered.

• 3:42Tom Holland?

  No, he hasn't.

• 3:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  We're still waiting for that Hannibal masterpiece. And why on earth, Tom, when it's such an amazing story, hasn't he done it?

• 3:50Tom Holland?

  Because it's a story that would involve him taking an army, including 37 elephants, over the Alps. Winning three of the most celebrated battles of all time.

• 4:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 4:02Tom Holland?

  Slaughtering enormous numbers of Romans and bringing Rome almost to her knees. And it is so epic that I imagine the costs would be prohibitive. And actually, the person who put me on to Vin Diesel's enthusiasm for Hannibal.

• 4:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 4:17Tom Holland?

  Marina Hyde.

• 4:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 4:19Tom Holland?

  As I rest his entertainment, very wittily commented on this, that to make these, these films would cost only marginally less than an independent nuclear deterrent.

• 4:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, that is witty.

• 4:29Tom Holland?

  I think she's not exaggerating, but Vin is obviously still dreaming.

• 4:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  That's good because there's a rifle project, I read, that Denzel Washington.

• 4:36Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 4:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  Who has, you know, dabbled in swords and sandals in Gladiator two.

• 4:41Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 4:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  He's ambitious to do a Hannibal epic as well, isn't he? Although there's actually no sign of that coming to the screen either.

• 4:49Tom Holland?

  I think this one may be kind of more in the works. I think it's for Netflix, so it may be coming soon. But I mean, again, no, no sign of it as yet.

• 4:56Dominic Sandbrook?

  Okay.

• 4:56Tom Holland?

  And the thing is, I entirely understand the obsession because it's one I completely share. And if I were a massive Hollywood star, I would be pushing to do a Hannibal film as well. Because basically I would say, we're going to be doing this series on Hannibal. This is what I've been looking forward to doing since we began the podcast. And if you'd asked me when I was eight, what would I want to be doing when I'm 57? This is basically it.

• 5:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  It wouldn't be a podcast at Chatham High Street.

• 5:23Tom Holland?

  No, Hannibal even more than Chatham High Street, because I think this is one of the greatest stories, not just ancient history, but history full stop.

• 5:32Dominic Sandbrook?

  So for people who don't know, this is the story, the Second Punic War, fought at the end of the third century B.C. That's right, isn't it?

• 5:41Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 5:41Dominic Sandbrook?

  Two eighteen to two oh one. And it's between Carthage, the great sea power of the Mediterranean, North African power, and the emerging superpower of Rome. And the Roman historian Livy called it the most memorable war in history. Tom, do you think it does, well, you obviously do, given your enthusiasm for it. It's up there with Alexander the Great, or with the war between Athens and Sparta, or the Persian, I mean arguably, an even greater story because it has this extraordinary protagonist in Hannibal himself.

• 6:10Tom Holland?

  Hannibal is up there with Alexander as one of the great commanders of ancient history of all time, but I think it has a kind of more tragic quality than the story of Alexander because Hannibal's desire to take on Rome is inspired less by a longing for glory and conquest. Carthage is a much less militarist society than Macedon or even more Rome, and kind of more for a desire to save his city from a threat that he knows is only going to be growing, namely Rome. And also, undoubtedly, he wants revenge because Carthage has already received a very bloody nose from Rome.

• 6:51Tom Holland?

  And the tragic element is that his very attempt to try and defeat Rome and thereby save his city, in the long run, dooms it. And this is the second series about Carthage. So we will, in due course, be coming to the story about how Rome triumphs over Carthage and ends up burning it to the ground. But in this series, fans of Carthage, fans of Hannibal, can just sit back and enjoy the ride because everything in this is Hannibal at his absolute peak. Everything's going brilliantly for him. So we're going to be covering his invasion of Italy, the Alps, the elephants, all of that. We're going to be looking at his first two great victories that he wins at the River Trebia and Lake Trasimene.

• 7:35Tom Holland?

  Then he has a cat and mouse game with a Roman dictator who's appointed to save Rome in the teeth of disaster, Fabius the Delayer. And then we will be culminating in our final episode in Rome's bloodiest and most terrible defeat at the Battle of Cannae. So it is non-stop drama.

• 7:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  Very exciting. And if you're a member of the Rest is History Club, of course, you can hear all those episodes right now. But before we come to Hannibal himself, this character at the centre of the drama, let's have a little bit of a recap for people who didn't listen to our first series about Carthage and Rome, or perhaps have forgotten some of the details. So Carthage is a much more... Long established power in Rome, isn't it? It's on the north coast of Africa. It's supposedly founded in eight fourteen B C, so it's been going for about five hundred years or so.

• 8:20Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 8:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  And it's settled by immigrants from what is now Lebanon, from Tyre.

• 8:27Tom Holland?

  Yeah, and so they call it the new city, which in Punic, the language spoken by the the Phoenicians and the Carthaginians is Cart Hadas. So that becomes Carthage and it has every advantage going for it. So it has magnificent natural harbors, it has very fertile hinterland, so it can be fed very easily. And essentially today, the ruins of Carthage are part of the suburbs of the city of Tunis. And so that means that it can command the crucial straits in the Mediterranean between what is now Tunisia and Sicily. And for centuries, you you mentioned that Carthage is a great naval power. It is by miles the most formidable and the richest naval power in the Western Mediterranean.

• 9:10Tom Holland?

  And in the third century B C, the beginning of the third century B C, it has an empire that includes much of North Africa, a chunk of Sicily. It has Corsica, it has Sardinia, and it's also the mistress of a whole array of Phoenician colonies that docked the kind of southern coast of Iberia of Spain.

• 9:27Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right, but then when we get to the early third century B C, so the two eighties, seventies, two sixties, there's a growing tension with a new kid on the block, the emerging new land power, military power, which is Rome. And that gives rise to the first Punic War, which we talked about last time, which starts in two sixty four, I think, is that right?

• 9:48Tom Holland?

  Yeah, and as you said, Rome is the great military power, so it's the elephant against the whale. It's a military power against predominantly a naval power. And partly because the determination not to yield on both sides is completely implacable. The war just goes on and on and on, twenty three years in all, so it's the longest continuous war in the whole of antiquity. It bleeds both sides white in terms of of manpower and in terms of wealth. But in the end, it is the Carthaginians who are forced to sue for terms. And in two forty one, a treaty is signed that ends the war. By its terms, Carthage surrenders all its holdings in Sicily, where it had been a major power for centuries and centuries, has to clear out. And Sicily then becomes the first overseas province ruled by Rome.

• 10:33Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 10:34Tom Holland?

  So for the first time, Rome is no longer merely an Italian power. Carthage is also obliged to pay a massive indemnity. And the combined effect of these terms imposed on the defeated city essentially is to neutralize her as a naval power. So what had traditionally been her strength. So Carthage hasn't been destroyed, but she's definitely been crippled. And so the obvious question for the Carthaginians is, how is she going to come back from this? And this is the great challenge that obsesses her leading men.

• 11:08Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right. And her leading men, one in particular, will play a part in the story. And this is not yet Hannibal, but it is a man called Hamilcar, Hamilcar Barker. And Barker means the thunderbolt or the lightning bolt or something, doesn't it?

• 11:21Tom Holland?

  Yeah. So expressive of his speed, his ability to incinerate his opponents. Even the Romans acknowledged that Barker lightning bolt was an excellent description of him. So to quote Cornelius Nepos, who was writing a couple of centuries afterwards, looking back at this time, he wrote about Hamilcar, wherever he had personal command, he would never yield to the enemy nor give them opportunity to inflict damage on his forces. Quite the opposite indeed, for he would often go on the offensive should the opportunity present itself and invariably emerged victorious. And that kind of Roman emphasis on Hamilcar's ability to

• 11:59Tom Holland?

  go on the offensive. Firstly, that is a Roman recognizing a Roman quality in a Carthaginian. Most Carthaginians are not aggressive militarily in the way that, say, a Roman would be. But also, I think he is looking ahead to Hamilcar's ability to muster resources in a way that will enable him to. Prepare for revenge against the Romans for defeating Carthage in the First Punic War. And Hammelcar himself is a very seasoned Roman fighter. So it's Hammelcar in the dying days of the First Punic War, who had led the desperate attempt by the Carthaginians in Sicily to defeat the Romans there.

• 12:41Tom Holland?

  It fails, basically because the Carthaginian fleet is defeated and so therefore Hammelcar can no longer be supplied from Carthage. And when Carthage is thereby forced to surrender in the war, it's Hammelcar who is entrusted by the Carthaginians to negotiate the terms. And people who listen to our episode about this may remember that in the wake of Carthage's defeat, they're so skint that they can't afford to pay the mercenaries who provided them with the bulk of their army. The mercenaries rebel. At one point, it looks as though Carthage is going to fall to them. And it's Hammelcar, who returns from Sicily, leads the campaign against the mercenaries and ends up defeating them and executing them all in very horrible and bloody ways.

• 13:26Dominic Sandbrook?

  That was a satisfyingly bloody story, wasn't it? The defeat of the mercenaries. So, I mean, he hates Rome. He has massive, massive unfinished business with Rome, doesn't he? But it's more than just political, it's personal for Hammelcar, is that right?

• 13:40Tom Holland?

  He resents Rome as an opponent in war who has defeated Carthage, so that's understandable. But in due course, his resentment of that, I think, is definitely spiced by a personal sense of betrayal. Because Hammelcar has negotiated these terms with the Romans. And the Romans take advantage of the mercenary war to tighten the screws on Carthage. So essentially exploiting her misfortune. So in 237, that is the year after the defeat of the mercenaries. The Carthaginians want to go and stabilise their position in Sardinia, because there have been mercenary uprisings there as well. So they raise an army to go and do that.

• 14:18Tom Holland?

  And the Romans, in a display of coarse and brutal cynicism that is entirely typical of their statecraft, denounce this army as being in breach of the treaty. They say, you're raising- This army to come and attack us. And so a Roman embassy arrives in Carthage to demand revisions to the peace treaty. Because they say that the Carthaginians have broken it. They haven't broken it at all. And the Romans say, you've got to surrender Sardinia and Corsica to us. This was never part of the original treaty. And we are going to increase the indemnity that you need to pay us. So essentially, it is massively exploiting Carthage's hour of need and weakness. And so they have no choice but to accept these terms.

• 15:02Tom Holland?

  And Hammelcar is left incredibly embittered. So to quote a historian of the period, resentful of the injustice, but powerless to prevent it. So this is not the kind of man who is going to take it lying down.

• 15:18Dominic Sandbrook?

  So how can he go about doing this, Tom? Because you said earlier that Carthage has been hamstrung. So how can they plausibly hope to go toe to toe with the Romans once again?

• 15:27Tom Holland?

  Well, so they've lost their land empire in Sicily, in Sardinia and Corsica. But there is another obvious place where Hammelcar can start building a power centre. And this is Spain. So I mentioned that Phoenician colonies have been planted along the southern coast of Spain. And actually, beyond the pillars of Hercules, so the Straits of Gibraltar, probably the oldest of the lot is Agardes, which will become Cadiz. And these settlements are very strategically positioned. So as with Carthage, very rich agricultural hinterland. So there's opportunity there to expand. But even more, it is potentially incredibly rich. Because there are a lot of precious minerals just waiting to be mined.

• 16:10Tom Holland?

  And also, if these minerals can be kind of turned into gold to pay for mercenaries, to conquer more territory. Then that conquered territory can supply further troops. Because Spain is obviously a massive, massive reserve of manpower. Carthage has never actually established a land empire in Spain to repeat. It is not a city that is interested in establishing kind of direct rule over vast swathes of territory in the way that the Romans have shown themselves to be. But Hammelcar, having looked at the way that Rome has risen to power, recognizes, I think, that the only way that Carthage can really survive, let alone defeat the Romans, is to play that game as well.

• 16:52Tom Holland?

  And so his plan essentially is to transform the kind of loose hegemony that Carthage had always exercised over these Phoenician colonies in Spain into a kind of direct rule. And then using these Phoenician ports as bases to expand inland and carve out a Spanish dominion that will be able to replace the empire lost in Sicily, Sardinia and Corsica, and hopefully to provide even greater reserves because of the mineral wealth and the possible reserves of manpower.

• 17:24Dominic Sandbrook?

  So on paper, this looks like a brilliant plan, right? You can get the silver and the minerals from Spain, you can pick up mercenaries and conscripts from the Iberian peoples, you'll be militarily stronger, you'll be financially stronger, and you can basically begin to rebuild your reputation and you can plausibly hope to have another go at the Romans later on. And it's also good for Hammelcar personally, isn't it? Because if he's able to pull this off, it will entrench his position as the big man in the state. Does he want to create a dynasty?

• 17:53Tom Holland?

  I think almost certainly. Politics in Carthage is pretty carnivorous. The penalty for failure is very serious. Generals who lose battles are often crucified. So I think for Hammelcar, who has had personal experience of people trying to stab him in the back while he's been busy fighting the Romans, I think the chance of establishing a great centre of power, not just for Carthage but for himself and establishing a dynasty there, win-win. Everything is great about it. And it's very clear that Hammelcar is an extremely enthusiastic family man.

• 18:31Tom Holland?

  We know he has at least three daughters. We don't know their names, but we do know that one of them is married off to Hamilcar's closest political ally in Carthage, who is a guy called Hasdrubal the Handsome. And people who remember our first series may also remember the fact that basically there are only about three names in Carthage, of which Hasdrubal is probably the most common. So this is Hasdrubal the Handsome, because he's such a good-looking guy. So good news for Hamilcar's daughter. And in 237, when Hamilcar leaves Carthage for Spain, Hasdrubal is sailing with him. Hamilcar also has three sons. The youngest of these is called Mago. Then inevitably, there's a guy called Hasdrubal. So that's

• 19:14Tom Holland?

  Hamilcar's son. And the oldest is a young lad called Hannibal.

• 19:20Dominic Sandbrook?

  And this is the Hannibal?

• 19:21Tom Holland?

  So in 237, when Hamilcar is preparing to leave for Spain, Hannibal is only nine years old. And you might think, you know, that's probably too young to be taken to a war zone. But Hamilcar thinks not. And there is a very, very famous anecdote with which we finished our last series on Carthage. But I think it bears repeating, because it is very, very revealing about what will motivate Hannibal. And he tells it to various people later in life. So it almost certainly comes from his own lips. And he describes how he joins his father in the great temple of Baal in Carthage, where his father is making sacrifice. And this is supposedly how Hannibal described it.

• 20:02Tom Holland?

  "The omens proved favourable. Hamilcar poured a libation to the gods and performed the customary ceremonies, after which he ordered all those who were present at the sacrifice to stand back a little away from the altar. Then he called Hannibal to him and asked him affectionately whether he wished to accompany the expedition." So that's to Spain. "Hannibal was overjoyed to accept, and like a boy begged to be allowed to go. His father then took him by the hand, led him up to the altar, and commanded him to lay his hand upon the victim, and swear an oath, that he would never become a friend to the Romans."

• 20:34Dominic Sandbrook?

  Strong stuff.

• 20:36Tom Holland?

  Strong stuff. And it's a promise that he will keep all his life.

• 20:40Dominic Sandbrook?

  And you think this anecdote is probably true, because Hannibal tells it himself?

• 20:43Tom Holland?

  It probably is, yeah.

• 20:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  Okay. So first of all, he has to go to Spain. And actually, this is an unbelievable thing. He goes to Spain at the age of nine and he will not return to Carthage until he's 42. Is that right?

• 20:59Tom Holland?

  Yeah. He is raised in this colonial environment, this process of conquest, then of rule in Spain.

• 21:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 21:08Tom Holland?

  And in due course, he will come to take command of it. But first, of course, he has to serve his apprenticeship and he does this under two formidable men in succession. And the first, of course, is his father, Hamilcar Barker. And even though Hamilcar is probably the most formidable man in Carthage, there's no guarantee of success. He doesn't have that many men. This is Carthage's whole problem, that they don't have a huge citizen body. So generally they rely on mercenaries, but now they don't have much money, so they can't afford many mercenaries. So the estimation of Dexter Hoyos in his very good book on this Hannibal's dynasty, he reckons probably Hamilcar is sailing to Spain with about 20,000 men. So not that many at all.

• 21:51Tom Holland?

  And it's not surprising, that being so, he needs money. He sails to Gardes, to Gerdiz, and what he wants is the silver and copper mines along the Rio Tinto that lie about 60 miles inland from Gardes. And which is, you know, it's rich across the whole of the Mediterranean. So it features in the Bible as Tarsish, you know, a land of fabled wealth. According to tradition, the tribes who lived there are so rich that their cattle troughs are made of silver. So obviously, if you're a colonial administrator in desperate need of cash, this is exactly the kind of place that you would go straight for. And he does meet with opposition.

• 22:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah. The good news for him, though, is that though they're rich, they're not as good at fighting as he is, right? He will sort of encircle them, won't he? That's his strategy. He encircles them and then he completely massacres them. I mean, he's a pretty ferocious man, Hamilcar Barker.

• 22:44Tom Holland?

  Yes, this strategy of surrounding your enemies and then massacring them. And if young Hannibal is at his side when he's pursuing these tactics, I mean, this is something that that clearly Hannibal will bear in mind in due course because it becomes a favourite tactic of Hannibal himself. And Hammacar is very brutal in the process of conquering and pacifying Spain. So the leaders of tribes who oppose him are tortured and crucified, and the Carthaginians are very good at torture, as anyone who's listened to our episode on the war with the mercenaries will know. And the men of the tribes that have been defeated will be enrolled into his own forces, and they will be given incredibly lavish pay.

• 23:25Tom Holland?

  So this is the other side of the conquest, that Hammacar is very brutal to those who oppose him. Those who back him, he will lavish all the gold that he's annexed and conquered. And so this enables him to start spreading Carthaginian rule inland from the coast. And after about a decade of operations in Spain, Hammacar has a garrison there that's probably around 50,000 men. So he's more than doubled it in the space of a decade. And he's incredibly wealthy. His coffers are overflowing with silver. And unsurprisingly, the Romans are not really very thrilled about this. So by 231, they're sufficiently alarmed that they send an embassy to Hammacar, basically

• 24:08Tom Holland?

  saying, you know, hey, you know, what's going on here? Hammacar, his reply is, well, I'm raising funds to pay off the war indemnity that you illegally raised. And, you know, the Romans have to sum this up.

• 24:21Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 24:21Tom Holland?

  Because I mean, it's a good reply. And also, you know, as Hammacar can point out, it's none of their business what he's getting up to in Spain. You know, this isn't covered by the treaty. So the Roman ambassadors, you know, they're forced to bite their tongues and go back and accept the existence of this growing Carthaginian empire in Spain.

• 24:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  But then a bad blow for Hammacar, well, a very bad blow, the worst.

• 24:42Tom Holland?

  Exceedingly bad blow.

• 24:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  He dies.

• 24:44Tom Holland?

  In battle against whom? Against a Spanish tribe in the interior. And the stories about how he dies become ever more extravagant as time goes by. So. One historian who's relatively close in time to the event and tends to be more sober. He reports in very vague terms that Hammacar ended his career in a manner which formed a fitting climax to his achievements for he lost his life after fighting gallantly and with complete disregard for his personal safety in a battle against one of the strongest and most warlike of the tribes. So it's a good death. It's a heroic death.

• 25:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 25:15Tom Holland?

  But accounts of exactly how he dies then start to get inflated. So a later report says that he is betrayed by a local chieftain while undertaking a siege, that Hammacar's forces are taken by surprise and they're forced to withdraw, that his two elder sons, so that's Hannibal and Hammacar, they are sent off by Hammacar along one road and he then deliberately draws away the mass of the enemy by taking another road. He's about to be overtaken by his pursuers and ahead of him, there's a raging river and he plunges into the river on his horse and drowns. So essentially he sacrifices himself for his two sons. I mean, whether true or not, we don't know.

• 25:56Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 25:56Tom Holland?

  But he's like a kind of a lion defending his cubs. I think that's, you know, dying rather than seeing his cubs exterminated. That's the theme.

• 26:05Dominic Sandbrook?

  There's an element with him, isn't there, of the Philip of Macedon, Philip the second?

• 26:09Tom Holland?

  For sure, yeah.

• 26:10Dominic Sandbrook?

  So he ends up being famous as Hannibal's father. But in both cases, you can argue the son's achievements are completely predicated on the successes of their father. So in both cases, their father leaves them with a lot of silver, a military machine, a load of officers they can rely on, a sense of prestige. You know, all the groundwork has been done, basically.

• 26:30Tom Holland?

  Yeah, and a kind of military education as well. I mean, there is a difference though, that Hannibal, unlike Alexander, doesn't succeed his father immediately because he's still only 18. He's not a king, you know, they don't have kings. So the leader of the Carthaginians in Spain is an elected post essentially by the army, by the Carthaginians in the army. And I think that people feel, well, an 18 year old, he's too young. So they opt instead for Hazdrabal the Handsome, who is the young Hannibal's brother-in-law, Hazdrabal's son-in-law, very good looking, Hammacar's close political ally, has been with him in Spain, knows the ropes and Hammacar the Handsome is. Very effective. I mean, he's a worthy successor to Hamilcar.

• 27:15Tom Holland?

  And like Hamilcar had done, he kind of adopts this carrot and stick approach to the Iberians, to the peoples of Spain. So he marries the daughter of an Iberian king. So you asked about the dynastic quality. I mean, there's a sense that this Carthaginian dynasty is starting to marry into local royalty. He has himself proclaimed, not just by the Carthaginians who have voted for him, but by the Iberians as general with unlimited power. So he's rooting his authority in the colonized as well as the colonizers. And even as he's doing that, he's continuing this policy of absolutely brutal suppression of any hint of rebellion. And his first target, obviously, is the tribe that had killed Hamilcar. They all get wiped out.

• 28:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 28:01Tom Holland?

  So he is able to push Carthaginian control ever northwards towards the river Tagus, which is the great river that kind of flows through central Spain. And this empire needs a new capital, Hazdrubal decides. And so this is what he does. He founds a new capital and he calls it, stunning originality, Carthage, which of course means new city. But the Romans in due course will call it New Carthage, which effectively would be new, new city. But we'll call it New Carthage because otherwise it's very confusing. But the Carthaginians in Spain just called it Carthage.

• 28:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  Okay. And this is now in Spain?

• 28:37Tom Holland?

  Yeah. So it's Cartagena, yes.

• 28:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 28:40Tom Holland?

  Which to this day, I gather, is still one of the kind of the main centres of the Spanish navy. So it's clearly, as the original Carthage is, a natural port, a great stronghold. And it stands, there are kind of four hills dotted around this great natural harbour. On the largest of these, Hazdrubal builds a great temple to the Carthaginian god of healing. And on the second largest, he builds his own vast palace, which is adorned with all the wealth of Spain. And from there, he can sit and look down at the harbour and see growing numbers of ships, some of the military, but lots of the merchant ships, swelling his coffers. He's got the silver mines inland. He's got the shipping routes

• 29:22Tom Holland?

  descending on his great capital. He's able to employ the most cutting edge military architects to build him walls around the city. And so it's not surprising that it comes to be hailed by a near contemporary as the chief ornament and the centre of the Carthaginian empire in Spain.

• 29:39Dominic Sandbrook?

  So by the end of the 220s, the Carthaginians are back. I mean, they have an empire now, they have a land colony, they have a lot of money, they have all the silver, they have recruits, they have rebuilt a lot of what they'd lost in the first Punic War against the Romans. Why therefore have very few listeners to this podcast heard of Hazdrabal? What happened to him?

• 29:59Tom Holland?

  In 221 B.C., he gets assassinated by the slave of a disgruntled Iberian ally.

• 30:06Dominic Sandbrook?

  Oh, okay.

• 30:07Tom Holland?

  And so, you know, that's the end of him.

• 30:09Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 30:09Tom Holland?

  But as you say, he has absolutely played his part in reconstituting Carthaginian power, possibly on a scale that is even greater than the power that Carthage had enjoyed before the first war with Rome. I mean, so absolutely Carthage is back, she's a great power, she can go eyeball to eyeball with Rome again. But there is obviously a slight paradox here, which is that all the power is now focused in Spain and Carthage herself, back in Africa, is slightly pallid in comparison.

• 30:43Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 30:44Tom Holland?

  It lacks the reserves, it lacks the wealth that is now starting to develop in new Carthage. So that means that whoever is elected by the Carthaginian army to succeed Hazdrabal as the leader of Carthaginian power in Spain is probably in a position to prosecute almost an independent foreign policy. The fact that it had always been a problem for the Carthaginian ability to project wars, that the Senate back in Carthage is full of kind of rival power brokers who all hate each other. Now, the Bar kids, the dynasty of Hammacor Barca, they don't have to worry about that. They have their wealth, they have their army, they can essentially do what they like.

• 31:25Tom Holland?

  And so, obviously, the crucial issue now is who will succeed Hazdrabal the handsome? Who will take command of these incredible military resources?

• 31:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  Who, indeed? I bet nobody can guess. So we'll come back after the break to find out if that person is Hannibal.

• 31:45Tom Holland?

  This episode is brought to you by Mint Mobile. Right now, all of Mint's plans are $15 per month, even unlimited. So go to mintmobile.com/history.

• 31:59Dominic Sandbrook?

  Upfront payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12 months. Plan required. $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only. Greater than 50GB may slow when network is busy. Includes up to 20GB of hotspot. Capable device required. Availability, speed and coverage varies. See mintmobile.com.

• 32:25Tom Holland?

  This episode is supported by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Now, history's biggest leaps started as hard questions that people didn't want asked.

• 32:36Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, there's a classic example of that at the end of the 15th century. And the hard question in particular was, what is out there beyond the Atlantic Ocean to the west? And as you will know, the man who found the answer to that question was the explorer Christopher Columbus. And he realizes, or rather, everybody else realizes that there is a vast continent out there. And it is, of course, the Americas. So Anthropic knows the importance of questions. And it's why Anthropic is founded on one hard question above all. How can we ensure that the AI revolution really goes well for ordinary people?

• 33:07Tom Holland?

  So they asked over 100,000 people. And what came back wasn't just fear, there was hope as well. People wanted to know, will cancer ever be cured? Can kids have a better future? It turns out that there is hope in hard questions.

• 33:22Dominic Sandbrook?

  Ask yours at claude.ai/RestIsHistory and keep thinking.

• 33:27Speaker 02

  Shaq here. What's it like to buy a car from Carvana 100% online and get it delivered to your door? Let me tell you. Your car is here, Mr. Shaq. Thank you, Mr. Carvana guy. Can't wait to take it for a spin. Only the best for you, Mr. Shaq. Hey, have you always been so big, tall and handsome? Not always. I was 16, 10 once. Seven days to love it or return it, Mr. Shaq. Not that I would. You never do. No, I never do. So buy your car today on Carvana. Delivery fees may apply. See our seven day return policy at carvana.com.

• 34:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  The question of Hasdrubal's successor was quickly decided. The military vote was in favour of the young Hannibal, who was at once escorted to headquarters, where he was unanimously and enthusiastically acclaimed. The old soldiers felt that in the person of this young man, Hammelcar himself was restored to them. In the features and expression of the son's face, the troops saw the father once again, the same dynamism in his look, the same fire in his eyes. So that was the Roman historian Livy talking about the election of Hannibal as the new leader of the Carthaginians in Spain, the Carthaginian troops. So a real bombshell there, none of us were expecting that.

• 34:47Tom Holland?

  No one saw that coming.

• 34:48Dominic Sandbrook?

  So he's been chosen by the troops. He then gets the seal of approval from the senate and from the citizens' assembly back in Carthage. So there's nobody questioning his legitimacy. We do a lot of succession crises on the rest is history. But this is not one of them. He is in prime position. So let's go in to Hannibal, the character, the man that Vin Diesel wishes to play on film. I mean, does he look like Vin Diesel? What's he look like? What's his personality? What's his temperament? Tell all, Tom.

• 35:15Tom Holland?

  Well, the only physical description we have of Hannibal is Livy's, and Livy's writing in the age of Augustus, so almost 200 years after.

• 35:25Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 35:26Tom Holland?

  And Livy says that he has a face expressive of dynamism and fire in his eyes.

• 35:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 35:32Tom Holland?

  But this, you know, I mean, it's kind of pretty generic, I guess.

• 35:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 35:36Tom Holland?

  He doesn't say whether Hannibal is tall or short, whether he's bearded or clean-shaven. There are silver coins that are minted and there's a figure of a man on it that some people have suggested might be Hannibal, but it's almost certainly a god. So we don't really know what Hannibal looked like. You asked, does he look like Vin Diesel or indeed Denzel Washington? Absolutely not, because both of those are not as young as they were. Hannibal is very young, he's only in his mid twenties. We know on top of that, that Hannibal was proud of his descent from one of the original colonists that had settled Carthage way back in the dawn of time.

• 36:13Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 36:14Tom Holland?

  When they had sailed from Tyre. So presumably, I mean, he has a kind of look of the Lebanese, a kind of maybe a young Nassim Nicholas Taleb, perhaps.

• 36:23Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, when I read this, I had a look, I looked for famous Lebanese celebrities. And do you know the Hollywood star who was born to play him? Who was of Lebanese descent himself? Vince Vaughn.

• 36:33Tom Holland?

  Vince Vaughn? He's not as young as he was, is he?

• 36:37Dominic Sandbrook?

  Well, he perhaps just missed the boat, but I think Vince Vaughn, Vince Vaughn playing Hannibal would be a really unexpected. Vin Diesel would be raging at that, he'd be furious.

• 36:46Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 36:47Dominic Sandbrook?

  Vince Vaughn got in first.

• 36:49Tom Holland?

  Or my friend George Saab, who is Lebanese, and I can't see him doing it either.

• 36:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  Okay, but no one knows who he is, Tom.

• 36:54Tom Holland?

  No, I know, I know.

• 36:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right, well.

• 36:57Tom Holland?

  So we don't really know what he looked like, but he kind of probably looked vaguely Lebanese.

• 37:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  What about his personality? Did he have Vin Diesel or Vince Vaughn's personality?

• 37:04Tom Holland?

  Well, again, Livy gives a famous description of him and claims that he's a compound of extraordinary qualities and terrible kind of malignant faults.

• 37:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  Very much like us.

• 37:16Tom Holland?

  So his qualities, Livy says that he's brave, he's very tough, indefatigable, both physically and mentally, he could endure with equal ease extremes of heat or cold. So very like Alexander, and indeed you Dominic, yeah.

• 37:29Dominic Sandbrook?

  Thanks, Tom.

• 37:30Tom Holland?

  Pointing to yourself. He dressed, ate and drank like a common soldier, you know, he didn't have a special tent, he just rolled himself up in his cloak and no matter how cold it was.

• 37:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 37:39Tom Holland?

  Very, very smart, so again, like you, deep penetrating intelligence.

• 37:44Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 37:44Tom Holland?

  And then Dominic, his vices.

• 37:46Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah, let's do the vices.

• 37:49Tom Holland?

  So Livy says he has inhuman cruelty, a more than punic perfidy, a total disregard of truth, honour and the gods, of the sanctity of an oath and of all that other men hold sacred. So again.

• 38:01Dominic Sandbrook?

  Sounds canny.

• 38:01Tom Holland?

  Yeah, eerie, very eerie. I mean, I think several things to say about that portrait. Obviously Livy is a Roman and so he's giving a very Roman perspective. We just don't have any Carthaginian records.

• 38:17Dominic Sandbrook?

  Isn't it funny how two of the most celebrated characters in all antiquity, Cleopatra and Hannibal, are basically Roman supervillains. All we know of them comes from the Romans.

• 38:27Tom Holland?

  And of course, to a degree, he's a villain.

• 38:30Dominic Sandbrook?

  But as with Cleopatra, they both admire and dread this character.

• 38:35Tom Holland?

  Right. The Romans are always, and Livy being the exemplar, always emphasise and acknowledge his qualities, which are of course self-evident from his record, because Hannibal would prove himself one of the greatest generals of all time. But there's also the fact that the more impressive Hannibal is acknowledged to be, the more impressive the feat of the Romans in defeating him.

• 38:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 38:54Tom Holland?

  And Hannibal, of course, as a military commander, is in a slightly elevated position to Cleopatra. For the Romans, it's humiliating to be fighting a woman, whereas Hannibal is a foe who's kind of equal, you know, is a worthy adversary.

• 39:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  What about the punic perfidy though?

• 39:09Tom Holland?

  Punic, the word that the Romans use to apply to the Carthaginians, this is a stereotype, their sense that all Carthaginians are treacherous and tricky is absolutely standard. And I think in Hannibal's case, it comes from the fact that he is indeed very cunning, that he has an incredible mastery of stratagems and traps. And essentially what Livy is complaining about is Hannibal's consistent ability to make, you know, succession of Roman commanders look absolute idiots.

• 39:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 39:43Tom Holland?

  So you can kind of see where that's coming from. The other accusations that he's an oath breaker, that he has no respect for the gods, we will see whether that's fair or not in due course.

• 39:53Dominic Sandbrook?

  Okay. So what's obviously happened with Hannibal is that his father has taken him to Spain when he was nine and has basically trained him

• 40:00Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 40:00Dominic Sandbrook?

  ever since then to command a war machine.

• 40:03Tom Holland?

  Yeah.

• 40:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  The end goal being that one day you will take on the Romans. Is that right? I mean, is it as explicit as that?

• 40:10Tom Holland?

  Well, I already mentioned that, you know, the idea of Hammelcar as a lion and his three sons, Hannibal, Hasdrubal and Mago, as his cubs. And there's a famous saying that the Romans attribute to Hammelcar, that these are the lion cubs I am rearing for the destruction of Rome. I think that's an exaggeration. As we will see, I don't think Hannibal ever aimed to destroy Rome. Destroying your enemies is something that the Romans do. The Carthaginians, I don't think were planning to do that. But indisputably, Hammelcar's ambition in raising his three sons for war is to restore Carthaginian status as great power. And if this involves

• 40:51Tom Holland?

  going to war with Rome, as Hammelcar clearly suspects it will, then so be it. You know, it will be the ultimate trial for his dynasty and for his city. And so Hannibal needs to be prepared for that trial. And it has to be said that Hammelcar, you know, prepares his eldest son for this great test unbelievably well.

• 41:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right. And then when Hasdrubal, the handsome, succeeded Hammelcar, he had Hannibal as his cavalry commander, didn't he? There's no feuding there. You might expect there to be tension between the two of them, but not at all.

• 41:24Tom Holland?

  No. And again, there's a comparison with Alexander, who as a young man commands Philip's cavalry. By the time that Hannibal becomes supremo in Spain, he has established himself as a very formidable cavalry commander. But more than that, I think it's given him a sense of the importance and the potential of cavalry in expediting a sense of mobility. And this again is something that he will display throughout his career. And probably You know, it's hard to think of a contemporary cavalry commander who could outclass Hannibal by the time he becomes kind of supremo in 221.

• 42:04Tom Holland?

  And this is, again, significant for Carthage's prospects in any land war with the Romans, because the Roman cavalry is definitely secondary to their infantry.

• 42:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 42:16Tom Holland?

  Which are heavy, heavily armoured, and therefore potentially ponderous. So there is scope there, you know, there are things that Hannibal can make play with. And again, just to reiterate this comparison with Alexander the Great, he's inherited this war machine, he's got this kind of early training as a cavalry commander, he's obviously personally very, very charismatic. When he pointed out that Hazrebel doesn't in any way seem to have been jealous of him, he clearly admires and respects Hannibal, even though he's younger and his obvious successor. He has all these young officers who've grown up around him, one of whom, Mago, his youngest brother, seems to have been particularly close to him. And he even has a Greek tutor who's a Spartan called Sosilus, who will accompany Hannibal on his campaigns and write up a biography.

• 43:01Tom Holland?

  Again, that's very Alexander, isn't it? Having your own historian.

• 43:05Dominic Sandbrook?

  But do you think it's plausible that he was consciously modelling himself for Alexander? Or is that overstated? Are we projecting that onto him with hindsight?

• 43:13Tom Holland?

  Well, Alexander's influence is manifest to the degree that Alexander is an influence on every general in the century that follows his great course of campaigns. But I don't think that Hannibal has anything like Alexander's desire to just push eastwards, ever eastwards. Hannibal's goals are much more succinct, much more circumscribed. He essentially wants to re-establish Carthage as the greatest power in the Western Mediterranean. That will obviously require Rome to be humbled to a degree, and so Hannibal is prepared to do that, but he doesn't, I think, want to obliterate Rome. So if...

• 43:54Tom Holland?

  This means war with Rome, then Hannibal is prepared to go to war with Rome. But I think his preference would probably be, I'd rather not have war if we can possibly avoid it. He wants his empire in Spain, and if he can develop that empire in Spain without war with Rome, then all the better.

• 44:11Dominic Sandbrook?

  But that's where the storm clouds of war begin to gather, isn't it? In Spain?

• 44:14Tom Holland?

  They do, yeah.

• 44:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  The Romans by now have woken up to the fact that Spain is very lucrative, and Spain is going to be, as it were, the flashpoint, because they are not going to allow the Carthaginians just to occupy the entire peninsula.

• 44:26Tom Holland?

  Yeah, we say that, but actually, the first treaty that establishes that relations between Carthage and Rome in Spain, it's brought about by a Roman position of weakness. So in 225, the Romans are facing an invasion of Gauls, so Gaul, what's now France, and the Gauls had already, a century or so before, invaded Italy and actually captured Rome. So the Romans are very, very anxious about Gauls. They know that they're a menacing enemy. This invasion in 225 causes them great alarm, and they're anxious that if the Gauls do invade Italy, then this will provide scope for the Carthaginians to start messing around. So they send an embassy to Hazrebel, who's still alive at this point, and they sign a formal treaty.

• 45:07Tom Holland?

  And by its terms, the Carthaginians pledge not to cross the river Ebro, which is a great river that joins the Mediterranean, south of where Barcelona is today, and then it flows from the northwest in a line parallel to the Pyrenees. And it's agreed that the Romans will accept everywhere south of the Ebro as being Carthaginian, and in the north, the Carthaginians will not kind of intrude north of the Ebro.

• 45:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 45:32Tom Holland?

  But, having signed this treaty, the Romans then can't help hedging their bets. And so shortly after they've signed this treaty with Hazrebel, pledging that they won't poke their noses into Carthaginian affairs south of the river Ebro, they annihilate the Gallic invasion, which means that that threat is removed, and they start slightly regretting this treaty that they've signed. And so it's around the same time, and surely not coincidentally, that they establish friendly relations with an Iberian town called Saguntum, which lies on the coast, so very good communications with Rome by the sea. And the Saguntines become the kind of the Romans' eyes in Spain, kind of sending the

• 46:16Tom Holland?

  Romans' intelligence updates on what the Carthaginians are up to. And- They are qualified to do this because they lie just beyond the reach of Carthaginian control. However, there is no guarantee that this will be permanently the case because Saguntum lies five miles south of the Ebro.

• 46:35Dominic Sandbrook?

  Oh dear.

• 46:36Tom Holland?

  Which means that according to the treaty that the Romans have signed with the Carthaginians.

• 46:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 46:42Tom Holland?

  They are within the Carthaginian sphere of influence.

• 46:46Dominic Sandbrook?

  I was about to say, when you look at a map, it's now Sagunto, which is not far from Valencia in the south of Spain. It clearly is a massive infringement of the treaty.

• 46:54Tom Holland?

  It absolutely is, and it's absolutely kind of classic. This is traditional Roman mischief making. There is massive scope for a bust up. However, the crisis does take time to brew because to begin with Hannibal's focus is not on Saguntum. What he wants to do is secure Carthaginian control deep into central Spain, along the line of the river Tagus, this river that flows through the centre of the peninsula. And he's essentially following Hasdrubal the Handsome's policy. So he too takes a Spanish wife. You know, he wants to make sure of the loyalty of the Iberians as well as of the Carthaginians. Again, he's very happy to take the fight to those Iberians who oppose him. He fights two brilliant campaigns in 222, 221. He wins his first major pitched battle. It's against enemies who massively

• 47:39Tom Holland?

  outnumber him. He wipes them out by drawing them in. He tricks them, divides them up, surrounds them, wipes them out with elephants. So again, there's lots of kind of pointers there to the kind of military courses he'll be adopting. He storms towns, he takes loot, he rewards his troops very, very lavishly. And it becomes apparent that his men really adore him because he gives them victory, he makes them rich, and it's evident that he cares for them kind of very, very deeply. So the more campaigns Hannibal conducts, the more he can be confident that his war machine is really primed and ready to go.

• 48:20Tom Holland?

  And now that he's got almost the whole of central Spain conquered, his eye turns to the last stretch south of the Ebro by which, according to a treaty with Rome, he's entitled to conquer, and that's the coastal stretch, which of course includes Saguntum.

• 48:37Tom Holland?

  And so, in the year 220, at the end of the campaigning season, he returns to New Carthage. Everybody knows that Saguntum is ready for the following year, and he finds a Roman embassy waiting for him.

• 48:51Dominic Sandbrook?

  Greggy, and so do they give him, what, a settlement, an ultimatum? What have they got in their locker?

• 48:57Tom Holland?

  They issue him a formal caution, and to quote Livy, that he should leave the people of Saguntum in peace as allies of the Roman people. And Hannibal treats this with absolute scorn. I mean, he clearly finds the tone of the ambassadors very offensive. Carthage and Rome have this treaty. He can do what he likes to Saguntum by the terms of that treaty. And I think more than that, it would have reminded him of how the Romans had played this trick before, because essentially, the war in Sicily that kicked off the first Punic War, so the first great conflict between Rome and Carthage, the Romans had pulled exactly the same stunt. They had invaded Sicily with the defence that they were defending friends that they'd recruited in Sicily.

• 49:42Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 49:43Tom Holland?

  And that had obviously ended up with the Romans conquering the whole island. And Hannibal knows the Romans have form here. He's determined not to allow the Romans to get a foothold in Spain and to try and play the same trick there. So he plays the Romans at their own game, and he says that he, you know, he has friends in Saguntum, and they're being menaced by hostile faction, by the Romans. So basically, it's his moral duty to attack and

• 50:07Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 50:07Tom Holland?

  and capture Saguntum. I mean, he's clearly studied Roman diplomacy as well as military techniques very closely.

• 50:13Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 50:13Tom Holland?

  And he's doing exactly what the Romans do.

• 50:15Dominic Sandbrook?

  So we're in 220, so you can see very clearly how in 219, 218, 217, this might lead to war, right? There's this flashpoint in the irreconcilable positions.

• 50:25Tom Holland?

  Yeah, because I think it's clear that in 219, Hannibal is absolutely set on attacking Saguntum.

• 50:31Dominic Sandbrook?

  But he didn't have to, right? So there were, even at the time, there were ancient historians, ancient authors, who thought he could have made a different choice, and then history would have unfolded completely differently.

• 50:43Tom Holland?

  Yeah, so it was said in the wake of the war, Hannibal's war, that, you know, he could have asked the Romans to hand back Sardinia, for instance, and to remit the indemnity that had been illegally imposed on them.

• 50:55Dominic Sandbrook?

  Were they ever going to do that? That seems so un-Roman. It seems so unlikely that they would ever have done that.

• 50:59Tom Holland?

  Right, that's obviously why Hannibal never even thought to adopt that policy, because it was never going to happen.

• 51:04Dominic Sandbrook?

  Right.

• 51:05Tom Holland?

  The Romans would never have agreed to pay Sardiniya because that's not what the Romans do. And anyway, Hannibal is probably thinking, suppose I do attack in an exaguntum. You know, what are the Romans going to do about it? Rome is a long way from Spain.

• 51:19Dominic Sandbrook?

  Yeah.

• 51:19Tom Holland?

  Are they really going to risk war over this one city? And even if they do, bring it on. You know, I've got this amazing army. I'm ready to go. It's clear that Hannibal is not alone in thinking this. The Senate back in Carthage think this too, because the Roman embassy that had been to see Hannibal, then go to Carthage to complain about Hannibal's behaviour. And the Senate there, even though lots of them don't particularly like Hannibal and are kind of jealous of him, they basically say, you know, piss off. We're not having this, you know. So essentially, there is a Carthaginian united front. And this means that in the early summer of 219, Hannibal embarks on the siege of Saguntum, knowing that he has the full backing of everyone in his native city.

• 52:02Dominic Sandbrook?

  And yet at first, I mean, you've been talking up Hannibal and his machine. But at first, that siege of Saguntum doesn't go terribly well for him.

• 52:07Tom Holland?

  No, it's a disaster, actually. He gets wounded in the thigh, which isn't very helpful. And I think in general, Hannibal is better in the field than he is kind of laying siege to cities. So all through the summer, all through the autumn, into the winter, Saguntum still hasn't fallen. And had the Romans intervened, then it could have potentially have been a real problem for Hannibal. But the Romans don't intervene. And the reason for that is essentially, it's a bit like Britain in the 30s. You know, there's massive disagreement. There's a kind of war party and they're saying, you know, we've got to do this or else, you know, it's going to lead to disaster. And there are others who say, oh, I'm not sure about that. And so these disagreements in Rome

• 52:49Tom Holland?

  enable Hannibal to prosecute the siege until in early 218, the city finally falls. The city is stripped of all its treasure. The population are either slaughtered or sold into slavery. It's an absolute triumph for Hannibal. And back in Rome, the news of this prompts intense feelings of anger, but also, I think, of shame. And from this point on, the Romans will never cease to characterise the capture of Saguntum as a terrible war crime of the kind that they themselves would never commit.

• 53:22Dominic Sandbrook?

  I mean, this, it seems like such a standard thing, but also the kind of thing the Romans did all the time.

• 53:28Tom Holland?

  Absolutely is. So the hypocrisy of the Romans in this, I think, is quite something. And I think that there are still elements within the Roman Senate who recognise this. So there is a still, it's not exactly a peace party, but it's a faction that says, oh, are we really sure we want to go to war over this? Yeah. And this faction is led by a very distinguished senatorial figure called Quintus Fabius Maximus Berucusus, so Warty, a bit like Oliver Cromwell, he's got a wart on his nose. Right. And he says, look, before we declare war, let's put out the peace feelers again. Let's send an embassy to Carthage.

• 54:08Tom Holland?

  You know, let's see if we can open feelers to Hannibal's enemies in Carthage and just try and avoid open war. And I think this is partly because, you know, they think the war might be quite difficult, but also because genuinely the Romans are a very kind of moralistic people and they don't want the guilt of starting the war. They're trying to absolutely pin the blame for any conflict on the Carthaginians. Right. So the Roman embassy goes to Carthage and they arrive there. But despite this kind of, you know, let's go negotiate with the Carthaginians, they're Romans, they're not really there to negotiate. And their starting demand is so obviously impossible that effectively they're wasting their breath.

• 54:50Tom Holland?

  And the starting demand is that Hannibal should be surrendered to the Romans. And there's no way that the Carthaginians are going to do this. Even Hannibal's bitterest enemies can recognise that if they hand over the guy who's in charge of Carthaginian Spain, that will be the end of Spain. You know, the Romans will move in, no question. Yeah, of course. And so negotiations go nowhere and the leading Roman ambassador, who may be Quintus Fabius Maximus, or perhaps his cousin, the sources are contradictory, he stands up. A very famous scene, and I'll quote a Roman source that describes it. "He pointed to the bosom of his toga and declared to the Carthaginian Senate that in its folds he carried both peace and war, and that he would let fall from it whichever they instructed him to leave.

• 55:35Tom Holland?

  The Carthaginian chief magistrate answered that he should bring out whichever he thought best, and when the envoy replied that it would be war, many of the senators," so those are the Carthaginians, "shouted at once, 'We accept it!' It was on these terms that the Senate and the Roman ambassadors parted."

• 55:54Dominic Sandbrook?

  So the storm clouds of war have not merely gathered, Tom. The storm is underway. Yeah, as Chris Morris would say, it's war. It is war, and there's so much to come in this story. There's elephants, there's crossing the Alps, there's tremendous battles, the Battle of Trebia, the Battle of Lake Trasimene, and finally, at the end of this mighty series, one of the great battles in all ancient history, indeed in history, full stop, the Battle of Cannae. So, Tom, what can people do if they want to hear all this story right away?

• 56:25Tom Holland?

  Well, Dominic, in a stunning innovation, we've set up a private club, which enables you to access all four episodes. And it's very simple. You go to the rest is history.com and very, very reasonably priced, isn't it, Dominic?

• 56:38Dominic Sandbrook?

  It's incredible. Basically giving it away.

• 56:40Tom Holland?

  Yeah, basically. So that's what you can do, and you can get all four episodes there.

• 56:45Dominic Sandbrook?

  And listen, these episodes will be some of the most epic, the most swashbuckling, and the most bloody and the most glamorous that we've ever done on The Rest Is History. Do not miss it. Tom, thank you so much for that, and we will see you next time. Bye bye.

• 56:56Tom Holland?

  Bye bye.