Man United’s Miraculous Comeback, Iraola’s Conundrum & Brilliant Bellingham

Manchester United produce a miraculous second-half comeback, scoring three goals to beat Roma at Old Trafford. Have Michael Carrick’s players finally stepped up when it matters most to save his job? Meanwhile, the emergence of Rio Ngumoha and Trey Nyoni has given Iraola a selection headache when it comes to picking his strongest starting XI. With Florian Wirtz and several other Liverpool stars arriving for huge transfer fees, can he really afford to leave his big-money signings out? Plus, Gary, Alan and Micah are full of praise for the brilliant Jude Bellingham, whose outstanding performances on the pitch have helped transform him into a global superstar. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 2:08Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome to the rest is football. Manchester United have pulled off a remarkable comeback at Old Trafford, coming from two goals down to beat Roma in what was a quite extraordinary second half. For much of the season, the players have let Michael Carrick down and after that dreadful first half performance, it looked as though they were doing it all over again. Has that second half comeback saved Michael Carrick's job or simply delayed the inevitable? Alan, you were at Old Trafford on Tuesday. Did it surprise you that comeback?

• 2:39Speaker 03

  Yes, it did actually. I didn't see that at half time at all. There was no evidence that that was going to happen. In fact, the first half was one of the worst first halves I've seen from any team. Honestly, it was so bad. There was nothing in the game that Michael could take positive from at half time. Defensive mistakes, open again when they lost the ball, poor in attack, no creativity in midfield. Honestly, they were dreadful in that first half. And I just, I said on the call comms, I don't know where he starts, Michael Carrick, because it was that bad, you know? But whatever he said at half time, whatever he did, whoever he rattled in terms of getting into them because of how bad they were, it worked because they came out, they had more

• 3:24Speaker 03

  energy, they passed the ball a lot quicker, they had more forward runners. Everything they were doing was a lot better. I still think they got a bit fortunate in terms of not sure it was a pen, not sure the pen should have been retaken when Bruno missed it. But those are the tiny little things that make a difference, you know? And once they got that goal, Old Trafford just changed. You could feel the atmosphere. The players then give the fans something to cheer about and they were going mad and the players responded to that. And then it was a huge error, Bladdy, I think it was, and then Cunha got the tap in, but his winning goal was an outstanding finish. So could it be the big change that Michael's been looking for? I'm not convinced.

• 4:09Speaker 03

  I still don't think they're a good side at all, no.

• 4:12Speaker 04

  They found something from somewhere though, didn't they Al?

• 4:14Speaker 03

  Yeah, absolutely, yeah.

• 4:15Speaker 04

  That's a good sign. I think, I think, I'm not saying they deserved it, but they deserved for the luck to be turned around. It's like every time they make a mistake, they get punished. And you're just thinking, because they played really well against Chelsea in the first half of the week, as we said last week. And then they played really well in the second half, this, this, this time in the Champions League, but they need a full 90 minute performance now. I think that's the next step before you can see if the back. But you've got to give them credit for the resilience that they showed, the character, because we're going to be the bad one that, because Roma are a good side, but they haven't got the energy that Man United, they've not got the individual talent that Man United have got. So if they'd have lost that, then I think it would have been a bad one, but.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  So pleased for Michael Carrick, yeah?

• 4:59Speaker 04

  I was just delighted for him because you could just see him on the sideline when he's got to do his presses and he's just, his demeanor, you could tell like he wants to say something else, but he can't, he's being professional, he's protecting people. And then you know he's not saying the real truth. So for him to get the win, I was, I was delighted.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  And, and his changes by the way, Shea Lacey, he came and did, did really well, did, went past players, bit of excitement, got the crowd going a little bit, you know? It's just those little things that, there was no energy, there was no excitement whatsoever in that first half. And then Lacey, he did more in that, when he came on than, than lots of players have done for a while, you know? So I don't know whether there's a shout for him to start, you know?

• 5:43Speaker 00

  I remember a long, long time ago, Sir Alex Ferguson, when he'd had a really, really bad start for about three, three seasons, which you'd never be allowed now. And there was that moment, wasn't it? Norwich in a cup tie away. Was it Mark Robins Al?

• 5:57Speaker 03

  Yeah, yeah, Mark Robins.

• 5:58Speaker 00

  Scored that all important goal, which, which turned things and they never look back from them. Now, I'm not saying Michael Carrick, Sir Alex Ferguson, but you do need a bit of luck, a turning point at some point and you never know. I mean, looking at the squad depth and the players that they have, the highest they could probably finish would be European spots, maybe lower Champions League spots, fourth, fifth, but there's a lot to do from them. But just sometimes a little spark can, can, can make a difference. And obviously they've got one or two, you know, good young players. You mentioned Lacey there, came on, did really well.

• 6:39Speaker 00

  And that gives everyone a lift, particularly the, the difference in the mood in the, in the, at Old Trafford, Al, must have been starkly different from the end of the first half to the end of the second.

• 6:50Speaker 03

  I mean, it was unbelievable. They got booed off, both sections booed them off and rightly so, because they were that bad. And it was painful and I could, I could just imagine what Michael's going through, Michael Carrick and the hurt that he's feeling, you know? Because they just give him nothing in there, nothing at all in that first half. But for it to, to be that bad and then to get to be that good in the second half and a bit of relief for him and the relief for the fans. And I guess it's just a reminder for the players that if they put in a shift like that, if they try, if they, do you know what I mean? Give the, give the fans something and the fans will respond, you know? It's been that bad for such a long time now, I guess. It's just a relief and yeah, Old Trafford was rocking again and the players responded to that, so.

• 7:35Speaker 04

  What about the walk though, Al? The walk at half time when you're going to go from the dugout to the tunnel.

• 7:41Speaker 03

  I don't know. I felt, honestly, I felt for Michael Carrick. It was like, I was looking at him thinking, goodness me, where do you start here in the dressing room? And yeah, that walk, it'd be such a long walk.

• 7:51Speaker 04

  Imagine if you won, you feel like the manager, you'd have a different walk, you know, he'd be like high five, you know, high five, waving to the crowd. And when you, when you, when you're losing, it's just head down, isn't it?

• 8:03Speaker 00

  Yeah, just put your shirt up a little bit. It's not, it was him, his fault.

• 8:08Speaker 03

  You know what it is though, defensively, it was like, it was, we've seen it so many times with them. Once they lose that ball in midfield, you've got Dalot bombing forward and he's in like, in like the furthest forward position and they lose it and then it's like this. But someone must be telling him to do that. Someone must be saying to him, when we win the ball and we look as if we're, we're going to progress, you have to, because otherwise, why would he do it? Because, but as soon as they lose the ball, they're just wide open defensively.

• 8:37Speaker 00

  I thought it was quite telling before the game that, that the person they sent out for an interview was Aidan Heavon, who's obviously very young. I don't know whether any of the senior players fancied the pre-match interview.

• 8:52Speaker 03

  It was noticeable actually that we did say that about, I think it was Ahmed and Aidan Heavon that were sent out to do the press beforehand and I was thinking. I'm not sure that's the right thing to do, you know, where you got to putting two youngsters out.

• 9:05Speaker 00

  Maybe you thought if I if we sent if they send those out, the press are going to be quite easy on them because they're young lads.

• 9:11Speaker 03

  Yeah, possibly, but you've seen the big hitters come out after the game, didn't you? When things are going all right.

• 9:16Speaker 04

  Did you have Kudus after the game out or not?

• 9:19Speaker 03

  They had Bruno Fernandes, who I thought spoke very well. I thought he should have said what he said a few days ago in interviews, you know, about there there's no there was no problem with Michael Carrick. He left him out because he wasn't playing well enough and he gets that and understands that and accepts that. I thought Bruno Fernandes spoke very well, but I thought that could have come a lot earlier, actually.

• 9:40Speaker 04

  Because we had Kudus after the game. What a nice lad he is.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  What was he thinking though, getting that, I mean, take your shirt off and then then that silly sliding tackle?

• 9:49Speaker 04

  I don't mind it. I don't mind it. That was the emotion, wasn't it? The emotion, take your shirt off, but obviously it's forgotten and it's just scoring a goal like that, you have to take your shirt off. I don't care.

• 10:02Speaker 00

  Scoring a goal like that, you have to take your shirt off. Can't you just run around like that with your arm up in the air?

• 10:09Speaker 03

  That's the easiest one, you see.

• 10:11Speaker 04

  Players have been getting over the last six months. It was just all the emotion coming out. I don't mind it. I don't mind it at all. It was his tackle that was worse than that, like tackle, what are you doing? The tackle was pathetic.

• 10:24Speaker 03

  You could just feel the adrenaline with that tackle, couldn't you? Like the adrenaline was running through him, wasn't it? He just thought, just, he probably didn't even think.

• 10:31Speaker 00

  No, well, he clearly didn't. He didn't think. I mean, Bruno got away with that penalty. I mean, encroachment, was it really?

• 10:39Speaker 04

  What what's the rule with encroachment? If it is, if you're on the line?

• 10:42Speaker 03

  No, your foot has to be inside the box, doesn't it?

• 10:45Speaker 04

  What? It wasn't inside the box though, was it?

• 10:48Speaker 03

  Exactly. I'm not 100% sure it was.

• 10:50Speaker 00

  It was very iffy, I thought. I mean, to turn it to give another go for that. I mean, that could be the that little bit of good fortune that you need, though, to turn things around.

• 11:01Speaker 04

  I thought that Unai was encroaching.

• 11:03Speaker 00

  Well, they said he was encroaching, so it must something must have. It didn't look it to me on the replay.

• 11:08Speaker 03

  Didn't look it to me either. I couldn't be 100% certain, yeah.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  Maybe his left toe now. Maybe that was enough.

• 11:13Speaker 03

  Wasn't even sure it was a penalty, actually.

• 11:15Speaker 00

  No, harsh one. I don't know. You need you need a bit of the changing fortune, although obviously, um, Belieber's a blow as well. Looks like hamstring, didn't it?

• 11:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, it was because he went down straight away grabbing his hamstring and he sort of hobbled all the way around the pitch to the to the to the dressing room when he was limping there. So if if it is as bad as it looked, then it could be a while.

• 11:37Speaker 04

  You know, just a bigger picture. Do you think Carrick's the right man for for the actual job? Say he turns around a couple of results now and they go on, say they win the the next two. Is this just what he needed and the team need a wake up call or do you think they just need to to move on?

• 11:54Speaker 03

  I don't think it's going to change there until it changes up above.

• 11:57Speaker 04

  You don't?

• 11:58Speaker 03

  I don't know. I think it's I think whoever whoever comes in, whether it's Michael, whether it's someone else, whoever it is, they're still going to have the same issues, aren't they?

• 12:08Speaker 00

  But for me, it's not about the coach. I mean, they've tried them all, haven't they? I mean, it's not about the coach, it's about how the club's run. It filters down, it's about the recruitment, it's about all the nonsense from Brett Cliffe and the meanness and the, you know, it's just a it's a bit of a mess of a football club at the moment. And until that changes.

• 12:27Speaker 04

  So what do you mean by that though, Gaz? Because when they finished third last season, I know they only played one game a week, you just think.

• 12:33Speaker 00

  They had a good run and they can still do that.

• 12:35Speaker 04

  It's inevitable that that will it's going to seep over to the players at some point. Is that is that what you're saying?

• 12:40Speaker 00

  Well, yes, because ultimately, football's about players and it's about the recruitment. It's how you spend whatever budget you've got. Now, the budget for Manchester United has been big for years and years and years. It's cut down a little bit, I think, in the last two or three, they're obviously cutting cutting back. They didn't really back Carrick massively in the summer. So I think it comes from there. At some point, they might realise that, hey, maybe it's not about the coach and we need to find someone that we think long term. Now, I know that's a ridiculous thing in football because everything changes every week, but if you look at the clubs that have done well, the big clubs that have done well, they're the ones that have stuck with a manager. Now, they're stuck with a manager for a reason and people say, yeah, but because they're doing really well.

• 13:25Speaker 00

  But Arteta had his moments where the fans questioned him and it's all easy to make the coach the scapegoat. But most of these guys now are very, very good at what they do. Obviously, there are a few exceptional ones, but Man United are not going to get one of those. They're not going to get a Luis Enrique, a Pep Guardiola, a Jürgen Klopp. Put somebody in that bracket now. They would have done a few years ago, but I don't think they're in that position now, neither because of their results or their financial status at the moment. It's not going to attract the big names because they won't be able to bring in superstar players, I doubt, unless they have a massive change of of thinking.

• 14:05Speaker 00

  So at some point, they have to just go right for stability and give some. I mean, if you go into any job, not not necessarily football, any job in business, you can't just make things brilliant in six months from a business that was struggling.

• 14:20Speaker 04

  Well, we did.

• 14:22Speaker 03

  It wouldn't surprise me at all if someone else took the hit as well as the manager, if the manager was to go.

• 14:30Speaker 00

  Oh, right.

• 14:31Speaker 03

  I.e. one of the guys up above, so it would because there's that much noise in the stands now about what's going on off the pitch. So I think if they were to do something, some I think there's a chance that someone in upstairs could go as well. So they could say, well, okay, we've we've we're changing that as well as something else, you know?

• 14:52Speaker 00

  Well, maybe they'll try something like that, but at the same time, they might bring back someone like Ole Gunnar Solskjaer. That's where they are, you know, give it another interim manager. Interim managers seem to work. It's just not run very well as a football club. They did come back, they did win though, so Brighton, Liverpool the opposite. They had the lead twice against Fenerbahce and and gave it away. It's still not right there, Micah, not quite.

• 15:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, I can't really put my finger on it. I thought they played really well against Arsenal in patches. Fort McCullough looked like he was going to do something. You know, when you're watching it, it's sort of like they're stuck in in two formations. They're trying to press, but they've not quite got the players to press high because when they're pressing high, the likes of Van Dijk, he's having to go really high. And I'm not saying he can't do it, but it looks uncomfortable when he's really high. But then when they they're not going forward with that much conviction, not only is was their best player, I thought in in the whole game, I thought it was amazing against Arsenal at the weekend.

• 16:01Speaker 04

  And it's not good when youngsters performing the best, but it's just not gelling at the moment. It was it's taken a little bit more time than I thought it would. I thought with the the way the manager, Oriola, wants to play with the players that Liverpool potentially have, yes, they have injuries, but I just thought they'd be perform a lot better than they are. But he's still finding a way. He's still finding a way for them to gel.

• 16:26Speaker 00

  He did say, didn't he, Micah, at the start of the season, I don't think the players have got the right kind of fitness to play exactly how I want to play at the moment. But I always find that a little bit strange that players aren't fit.

• 16:40Speaker 04

  No, when he says fitness, I think everyone's in football, everyone's got fitness because you know, like fans always say, why why are the players not fit enough? They don't they don't mean they're not fit. It it means they're not fit enough to do what he wants in terms of and that could be repetitive sprints. That could be long distance running within a sustained time or sustained period. That that's what it means because fans always say, why is he not running? They're not fit enough. They are fit enough, but just fit enough for what he wants. So at at Bournemouth when he was there, you'd see their teams, every single game, at times they were very open, but you knew how they was going to play. You remember you saying when we were doing the match of the day, look how good they are on the front foot, Gaz. I remember like, what is his style of play? That's his style of play.

• 17:25Speaker 04

  But with Liverpool, it's it's not quite clicking at the moment, but it will it will turn it around for sure. I'm not too sure about the left back position. I watched Kirkaz, he's struggling and then Timo Cas played as well. And what he wants the full backs to do, they're not quite getting it at the moment. They're struggling.

• 17:47Speaker 03

  I just think Liverpool are a, I think they'll have a battle to finish, I don't know, fourth or fifth in the Premier League. I don't think they'll, well, they won't win the Champions League. So I just think they are where they are, you know. I know they've spent a 14 on forward players. But the two youngsters are probably their best players in terms of Ungomor and Nyoni in midfield. Don't you think? I mean, Alisson's past his best. Van Dijk's not going to get any better. They've got a problem at left back. I mean, they let Robertson go and they've got Kirkaz and Simikas. I think Robertson's better than both of those two. I think there's their problems and it'll take a bit of time to sort it out. So I think this season Liverpool will have to have a bit of patience. And yeah, I see them finishing

• 18:31Speaker 03

  fourth or fifth. I just think they're, they're okay, you know. They'll, they'll score goals. I think Isak, if they keep him fit, he'll score. I wouldn't expect huge things from Liverpool until maybe to get better till next season. Would you agree with that?

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Yeah, I wouldn't disagree. I think they, you know, they, they had that amazing spine, didn't they Liverpool? And some reliable players and it was, and Alisson and obviously Virgil van Dijk was part of that. Now they're obviously coming towards the sunset of their careers, I suppose. And you can see, you know, Virgil's not as quick and as powerful as, as he probably was at his best. Alisson's, obviously he's dipped off over the last season or so from being probably almost the best goalkeeper in the world. And it's difficult when those superstar players start slipping a little bit. But, but again, it comes down to the, to the recruitment, doesn't it? And a lot of the signs didn't work. Interestingly,

• 19:29Speaker 00

  he was playing like Barclay, quite central. I thought was unusual. He doesn't look like that sort of player to me that can play there. So I was, I was surprised. I saw Areola's interview after the match and he said, well, yeah, he's obviously he's much better in my positions, but we wanted to do this, that and the other. And I thought, well, okay. You're bringing a star, you know, player for over 100 million and then, then play him in a position that he's, he's not really familiar with. I thought it was a bit odd.

• 19:57Speaker 04

  They're still trying to figure it out though, isn't it guys? Because Fackold has played right, he's played left, he's played central. Gattuso the other day played right. His favourite position is, is left. But then Munoz has done really well. Rio's done really well. So it's just trying to work out the right balance. And then don't forget they've got Eketike to come back as, as well. I think if he wants to play his best team, I think it's going to be hard for Verts to be in there because he wants to press. And because Verts is not the best presser, they find themselves with the, the problem. They're sort of trying to fit everyone in and, and the balance is not right. And I know Verts came for big money. I know I, I, I give him the big hype, but for the way Liverpool have

• 20:42Speaker 04

  played, where they've been successful in recent history is them pressing and being aggressive. And Verts is not that. So that is a conundrum at the moment.

• 20:53Speaker 00

  There comes a point where, I mean, it's hard when you've got players of that value that are coming, but you have to treat everyone the same. Yeah, it says quite a lot, doesn't it? That perhaps Liverpool's most impressive players were the two youngsters, like you said, Alan, Ungomor and, and Nyoni. Nyoni looks a bit special.

• 21:11Speaker 04

  Do you know what he does? He just does a simple thing really well. Does a simple thing. He gets it. He gives it. He drops into shape. You can trust him. And, and they've been talking about him for, for a while now, haven't they? You know, getting him into the, the starting 11. And then he's done really well when he, when he's come in. I think he just needs to, to build on that. But the manager obviously really likes him. But again, that's one of the problems. So what happens? You've got McAllister, you've got Sabozla, you've got Gravenberch. If Nyoni's playing, you've got another big hitter who's going to have to sit out. So again, it's, it's finding that balance, isn't it?

• 21:44Speaker 00

  But that's part of coaching and management, isn't it? Sometimes you've got to make big calls, Al.

• 21:49Speaker 03

  That's why I think, I think this season, I just have to accept Liverpool will be up and down. I don't think they're that great. When you compare, well, you can't compare them to, to other clubs who are challenging, both in this country and in the Champions League. I just don't think they're at the level where they'll compete yet. But I think this season he'll, he'll, he's on a mission to find out who he wants, who he can rely on. And I think you'll see the best of Liverpool next season.

• 22:18Speaker 04

  Would you take Trent back at Liverpool? He's not playing, he's not playing at Real Madrid, is he?

• 22:23Speaker 00

  No, he's not.

• 22:24Speaker 04

  Valverde's been playing right back and then Dumfries has been playing right back. It's just, it's sad to see what's going on there. After all the, the hyper arming going to Real Madrid and he's, he's, he's not even playing.

• 22:37Speaker 03

  I wonder what he's thinking.

• 22:38Speaker 04

  All that talent on the bench. It's just, it's sad to see that.

• 22:42Speaker 00

  Baffling, it really is. I just want to give one quick word on, on a player we've seen quite a bit over the years, the Fofenabache, certain N'Golo Kante. Wow, he's still covering every blade of grass. What a player. Oh, man.

• 22:57Speaker 03

  What a career. It's unbelievable, isn't it?

• 22:59Speaker 00

  Oh, incredible career. Incredible. Let's, let's take a break, discuss some of the other games when we come back.

• 23:07Speaker 00

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  It's a pub-like pint at home, Al.

• 23:44Speaker 03

  Cheers, boys.

• 23:44Speaker 04

  Cheers.

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• 25:48Speaker 00

  City managed to get through. Another kind of mistake from Donnarumma. I know they won the game in the end, so it didn't really matter. Well, I wonder about Donnarumma. He's not been absolutely brilliant, I don't think, for City since he came.

• 26:02Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think when, when they bought him from PSG after they won the Champions League. It was just like, yes, you've got to do it. But it was like, how was he going to fit into City's style with the way they play? But then, the reason was, well, he's a shot stopper. He's unbelievable shot stopping, so it doesn't matter. But he's making too many mistakes.

• 26:25Speaker 03

  Errors, yeah.

• 26:26Speaker 04

  I'm a big fan of Donnarumma, but recently, he's looked shaky. Whether with his crosses, whether it's shot stopping, whether it's positioning, whether it's organisation. I don't know what's going on with that moment, but yeah, he's started the season really poorly.

• 26:43Speaker 00

  Meanwhile, Trafford's done really well at Leeds generally.

• 26:46Speaker 03

  Yeah, although he had a mistake in the weekend.

• 26:48Speaker 00

  At the weekend, he did, didn't he?

• 26:50Speaker 03

  He's a brilliant star. Yeah, I think he's a very talented goalkeeper. And he'll have a big future, there's no doubt. And I think it'll be at Leeds. It's a very, very good signing for them. There was a few after him, wasn't there? So he'll be England's number one in the not-too-distant future.

• 27:05Speaker 00

  I wouldn't disagree with that. I think he's got the confidence as well, which I like. Particularly in a goalkeeper, they have to have that. I mean, it was a classic Haaland performance, wasn't it? So they didn't get involved very much. Bosch, Bosch, Bosch. Made loads of runs, the ball didn't come where... And then Bosch, you could see it breaking. Soon as Anderson went down, you thought, he's good, Elliot Anderson.

• 27:27Speaker 03

  What a ball. How many times do we see players get into that position and hit the front man?

• 27:32Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:32Speaker 03

  I mean, it was an unbelievable ball across that was so inviting for Haaland just to go and tap it in. There you go. How do you want it? On a plate. Thank you very much. Perfect.

• 27:42Speaker 04

  Who did it remind you of, that ball?

• 27:44Speaker 03

  De Bruyne.

• 27:45Speaker 04

  Yes! Oh, De Bruyne, it was the exact same, wasn't it?

• 27:48Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:49Speaker 04

  Running at pace and then, ah, the weight of the ball.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  The whip across. It was a nightmare for the keeper, nightmare for the defender. Just perfection for the centre-forward to run onto like Haaland did.

• 28:00Speaker 04

  He's playing well, Anderson, by the way, guys. I mean, he needs a little bit of stability in there because it's changing. Sometimes he's playing with Shirkie and Foden ahead of him, and then sometimes he's playing next to Bwadi. And then Enzo's in there as well. But he's been the shining light from the start of the season. I remember going back to the Community Shield, he looked a bit ropey, didn't he, against Arsenal? I was thinking, okay, this is a next level. What have you got for us? But yeah, he's been sensational this season.

• 28:29Speaker 00

  He's top class.

• 28:30Speaker 04

  Whether that's being on the ball or off the ball, his passing, his whole range, he's been, yeah, he's been fantastic.

• 28:37Speaker 00

  He's got real dynamism as well and a great energy. And he can cover the ground like he did so frequently in that game. Nico, right, he's not really getting... Well, when he's played, obviously he performed in this one, but it's not really happening for him this season. I wonder, it's a bit of tiredness probably from the World Cup, young man.

• 28:57Speaker 04

  It's hard though, guys, isn't it?

• 28:58Speaker 00

  It's so hard. People have no idea how hard it is to play all that summer. And then you probably don't quite do a pre-season because they give you an extra week or two. So you don't do the pre-season the best. I mean, I had one season, it's after Italia 90, where you came back later than everyone else. They'd done the hard work in the pre-season. And then you come back, you're probably still jaded from the World Cup, and then you can't get in a rhythm. And I remember up until about January, I was really struggling to find any sharpness and fitness. And Terry eventually pulled me one side, he went, go and get some sun. You come back, we'll give you two or three weeks out. Go and get some sun for a week, come back, and then we're going to do a rigorous, like, 10 days hard work.

• 29:43Speaker 03

  Come on, what's up with you guys? A young boy. He wasn't a regular for England. The two guys you've just mentioned, Elliot Anderson and Haaland, are flying.

• 29:54Speaker 04

  No, in my day, in my day, in my day, we used to...

• 29:58Speaker 03

  What's up with you? You're going soft, man.

• 30:00Speaker 00

  We used to limp street clean with Tong.

• 30:03Speaker 04

  But I was actually going down that road, I was talking about it's how, because of the personalities up against.

• 30:09Speaker 00

  Well, there is that as well.

• 30:10Speaker 04

  Bwadi El's left-back, who scores or assists every time he plays. He could defend a little bit better. He's more worried about going forward than defending at the moment. But the manager's brought in Enzo, he's brought in Bwadi. You know, there's not that many spots available. He's playing rather Shirkie or Foden sometimes at 10.

• 30:30Speaker 00

  Or left-back if he wants, you know, if you want him to play there. But he has got the versatility to play different positions, but it must be frustrating for him as well, you know.

• 30:38Speaker 03

  I think to be one of the very best, I don't think that's helpful, that you're good in different positions. I think if you've got a nailed-down position, that's when you get judged, you know. I think, and if you... He's very good at left-back, he's very good in midfield. I don't know whether that's... Great for team, great for the manager in terms of, because he's reliable. But for him as an individual, I'm not sure it's beneficial for him going forward.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  Like me, I was an outstanding centre midfield player. Holding, like Vieira. Honestly, I'm not joking, seriously, people think I'm like Vieira.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  What did he just say, Al?

• 31:15Speaker 04

  I was like Patrick Vieira in centre midfield. And then youth cup, someone decides to play me at centre-half. So I went to centre-half and then got my other match, so I stayed at centre-half. And then they put me to right-back when I first played. And all you pundits, all you idiots, it's always out of position. It's because I've never played right-back in my life. Silly sausages. So I had to go from right-back, then I go to centre-half, then I played left-back, honest to God.

• 31:43Speaker 00

  And then you were left out.

• 31:46Speaker 03

  I can see it here that I was like Patrick Vieira.

• 31:51Speaker 04

  I'll tell you, I was like, oh, a young Patrick Vieira. I'm going to get you. Went on a tour to China.

• 31:58Speaker 00

  That's going to be on your tombstone.

• 32:01Speaker 00

  I was like Patrick Vieira, but not quite as good.

• 32:05Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm telling you, I see fans back in the day, when I... I'm not going to burst up to the scene because that was a little bit later, but went on a tour, went with the first team. And I was playing holding midfield and I was everywhere.

• 32:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 32:16Speaker 04

  Dynamism. Good on the ball, could burst through. I wouldn't say I could see a pass at that level. I wouldn't say I... Yeah, that's...

• 32:24Speaker 00

  Well, you couldn't see.

• 32:25Speaker 04

  Yeah, that's forcing it a little bit, you know. But I could shoot, I could shoot. Could have it all.

• 32:31Speaker 00

  I had it all. I had it all. He's rotating, madly rotates, doesn't he, Maresca? I wonder if that'll work because he'll keep his players fresher? Or whether in the end it won't because the difference... Because players like to play consistently. And I just wonder whether it'll work because he is a rotator.

• 32:53Speaker 03

  He does it a lot, doesn't he? Doesn't mind doing that at all. You said it the other day, didn't you? He did it at Leicester and at Chelsea. So yeah, we'll soon find out.

• 33:02Speaker 00

  The only two he doesn't seem to rotate are Anderson and Haaland.

• 33:07Speaker 03

  Haaland.

• 33:07Speaker 00

  And the goalkeeper at the moment, obviously, but slightly different. So anyway, Aston Villa got thumped by Barcelona. Actually, I'm going to tie these two teams, these two games together for a reason. Villarreal got spanked by PSG at home, 6-0. Now, two similar themes here. Both Villarreal and Aston Villa tried to play out from the back, goalkeepers, and got caught relentlessly. And you wonder, if you're playing against PSG or Barcelona, is that wise?

• 33:40Speaker 04

  No, it's not wise. It's not... Honestly, what are you doing?

• 33:44Speaker 00

  I thought the same. I mean, Suzuki, who we'd wax lyrical about the week before and say how great he was at playing out from the back. He had an absolute nightmare, hasn't he?

• 33:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, but to be fair, what the manager is trying to do, he's trying to play out from the back, then to go long, then to get the second balls. Trying to drag them out. So I understand what he's doing. But against PSG, against Barcelona, that's what they're looking for. You see when they're hunting. They're ready to go. Have you seen Dembele when he presses? Have you seen Rafinha when they press?

• 34:15Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 04

  Like, it doesn't... Oh my God, Rafinha is just as good as Dembele at pressing.

• 34:22Speaker 03

  There is this obsession, isn't there? The obsession with teams now is that they have to play the ball out from the back or the goalkeeper passes to the centre-half. And eventually they go along anyway. And I sort of understand, but there's a time. And I mean, Liverpool got done with a goal at home to Arsenal at the weekend by trying to play out. And you think, Mike is right in terms of Barca and PSG and all these teams who love to do it and who want you to do it. They were brilliant at it. You just think, shall we? Shall we not just do something different for a while? It's like, yeah.

• 34:58Speaker 00

  It's funny how things go, isn't it? It's like, it's the current mode, it's the fashionable way to play at present. It's like this thing, I mean, this is what makes me laugh, right? So they'll take amazing risks to play out against the very best from the back with a goalkeeper. And then they get it back. Obviously, they want to break the lines and get... We know why they do it.

• 35:19Speaker 00

  But then, you go from that extreme to kick-offs now. Kick-offs, back, the goalie comes up, and then they either just lump it up or lump it out of play. And you think, oh, none of this makes any sense. But soon as somebody does it... And they might get thrown deep down in the Hender... And I didn't... Graham Taylor did it with England, and he got slaughtered for it, I remember. We deliberately kick it out for play. And now they're doing that, and you think... Hang on, hang on a minute, you do that, yet you will let your goalkeeper knock it out to someone on the penalty spot and then he's got to give it your back so you can break. And you just think, it's all madness and it's all, it's all fashioned. They'll, obviously somebody does it and they think, oh, this is quite clever, I'll do that as well. It's weird. It's weird.

• 36:04Speaker 04

  I don't like it, kicking the ball from, from a kickoff into, just so you can be ready to press and win the ball back. No, come on, that's game's gone. That, that falls under game's gone.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  Game's gone, game's gone.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  P G can do it because they win the Champions League twice in a row, but everyone else.

• 36:22Speaker 00

  If you've got absolutely brilliant players, you can play any way you want to play. If you've got the best, the best players at all. Al, I want to ask you about Rafinha because he's turned himself into one hell of a nine.

• 36:32Speaker 03

  Did you see that at Leeds?

• 36:33Speaker 00

  I saw ability at Leeds, but

• 36:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

• 36:36Speaker 00

  But he was a winger then, very much a winger, wasn't he? But his, his development and his improvement, and obviously when you go to Barcelona, you, and you get, with all due respect, you're going to be playing with much better players and, but the ability, you could always see ability there, but honestly, I didn't reach, I, no, I, I don't think any of us could honestly say that we thought he'd reached these heights.

• 36:57Speaker 03

  I agree.

• 36:57Speaker 00

  Where he's a Ballon d'Or contender now for, you know, for the next few years, probably.

• 37:02Speaker 03

  No, I, I agree. I didn't, I didn't see that in him at, at, obviously, yeah, there's a talented player there who's got ability, but I didn't see him.

• 37:09Speaker 00

  I think the oracle might have.

• 37:11Speaker 04

  No, no, the oracle didn't. Even though it was at Leeds, I said, well, I remember a match in the day bigging him up and pundits saying he's not that good. I've got that and I was, I was, I was behind him. I was backing him, but did I think he'd be Ballon d'Or contender? No.

• 37:27Speaker 00

  It's interesting, a few of these, um, kind of inverted wingers, wide players, forwards in right and left positions have now started to turn themselves, one or two of them into number nines. Obviously we saw it with Cristiano Ronaldo way back. Um, you've got Rafinha, you've got Mbappe, um, that obviously always played on the left and, and now he's a nine. They, they, they're bringing it back, Al. That position.

• 37:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, but they've played it differently though, aren't they? Because they're not holding, they're not holding up, they're not back to goal and bringing someone in. They, they jump as deep as they want, they pass it off and then they sprint into the box. It's complete, sort of like cheating a little bit, isn't it? If you play for Barcelona, as a striker, and this is where I will agree with Alan, you should, you should score between 40 and 60 goals a season because all you have to do is lay it off, make you run, and there's so much space between the lines just to get a little tapping. And that's why Rafinha, because he's, he's brave and he's got good timing of his run and he's got good technique. He was always going to score that amount of goals.

• 38:33Speaker 03

  Yeah. Don't off help when you're playing in that team with the ability, the players around them. You're going to be creating so many chances, as they do in that team.

• 38:40Speaker 00

  Some, um, good performance. Arsenal won as we expected. He conceded a late goal. That's probably the only thing we didn't expect. Didn't quite keep a clean sheet. Elsewhere, Jude Bellingham's goal was a bit tasty. Real Madrid, they, they made, um, a late comeback again. Um, it's going well at the moment for, um, for the great man, the special one.

• 39:01Speaker 03

  I mean, yeah, you're right. What a finish, what a finish that back, the little flick was, wasn't it? I mean, the pace it was coming at him for him to, and I keep saying now, this is the, this is the difference, is that the, how the brilliant players are able to think quicker than most others because of how they, how they sort of switch their body and how he's, his movement. It was such a clever finish.

• 39:23Speaker 00

  He's so good. He is unbelievably good footballer. I mean, he's, he's, he's now equaled Kevin De Bruyne with 16 Champions League goals, done in 25 fewer games. Youngest player ever to reach 60 Champions League games, 30 goal contributions already in the Champions League. Um, he's a very special.

• 39:43Speaker 04

  Superstar, isn't he?

• 39:44Speaker 00

  Oh, he's, oh, he's a global superstar.

• 39:46Speaker 04

  It's his Calvin Klein ad.

• 39:48Speaker 00

  I mean, yeah, yeah.

• 39:49Speaker 03

  Put your body to shame, didn't he, Micah? You, you, you've been getting on the weights, haven't you? As I've seen that picture.

• 39:56Speaker 00

  Micah's more of a Patrick Vieira than a Jude Bellingham, I would say. I mean, he does look good in his pants. He does look good in his pants. He can get away. I mean, he's, he's, he's kind of a new Beckham, I think. You know, not just, he'll transcend football, I think. I mean, every, you know, you speak to any young lad, the, the girls love him. Every, every woman I know loves Jude Bellingham. They all go, oh my God, Jude Bellingham. So, I mean, he's got that kind of Beckham star factor, hasn't he?

• 40:28Speaker 03

  He's a handsome boy. Yeah.

• 40:30Speaker 04

  I agree, I agree, I agree.

• 40:32Speaker 00

  But he backs it up on the pitch, as did David Beckham and, and, and that's, you know, that's primarily what you've got focus on. And then the rest of it comes as long as you keep performing. But what, I mean, what a player. He's so good. A quick shout out for Cesc Fabregas, friend of, friend of the pod. Wow.

• 40:50Speaker 03

  Nine.

• 40:51Speaker 00

  Nine, one, um, away from home.

• 40:54Speaker 03

  That's the biggest, isn't it, away from home in Champions League history?

• 40:57Speaker 00

  Correct. That's the, that's the right stat. And, um, they play some, they play some really good football.

• 41:03Speaker 04

  Nico Paz, mate.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  Oh, he's a player. I really like him.

• 41:06Speaker 04

  He's special. He's only 22, I think he is. Oh, his left foot is a, a joy. Even Duvacast with his movement. You see how they play? It's amazing. We need to go watch a game. Let's go interview him in Como. How about we do that?

• 41:21Speaker 03

  What, and we stay there for two weeks? Shall we? Let's do it.

• 41:23Speaker 04

  Yeah, let's do it, mate. We're going to Milan. I'll take you out to Ferencze, Florence.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  Can we do it in, can we do it in June rather than December? It's very much nicer. Um, but yeah, we're definitely, um, you know, well, Cesc's

• 41:38Speaker 03

  You know, we said about the job he's doing, like when we, when he, when they beat Man United, um, but, oh, I mean, just, yeah, what, it's incredible. He's

• 41:46Speaker 00

  That makes Man United's performance look quite good now. Mixed news for, for, for Harry Kane. Um, he didn't equal Ronaldo's consecutive goal record in the Champions League. Um, did get an assist. Um, and then Alan, very good news for our Premier League's top scorer of all time. He's signed a new contract with Bayern Munich.

• 42:10Speaker 03

  Yeah. Congratulations, Harry. Love it. It's about time it was announced.

• 42:14Speaker 04

  You're such a twat.

• 42:18Speaker 03

  What's he done in there?

• 42:20Speaker 04

  Can you say it like you mean it, please?

• 42:24Speaker 03

  Oh, come on. I'm, I'm one of his biggest fans, you know that. I think he's an amazing player. I don't think he'd score as many goals in the Premier League as he is in Germany, mind you, but good news for Bayern Munich and good news for me.

• 42:36Speaker 00

  I want to finish on a, on a sad note. Uh, Jesus de Miguel, the tragic, I mean, I can't remember anything like that in my time I've watched football. Um, a tragic accident, obviously a collision, just condolences to his family and friends and his teammates. And also to, to the goalkeeper that, I mean, imagine having done that. Obviously there was no intent in that. So, I mean, so dreadfully, dreadfully sad.

• 43:09Speaker 04

  Just devastating, wasn't it? Absolutely devastating.

• 43:12Speaker 03

  Lost the words.

• 43:13Speaker 04

  You saw, you saw the tackle and you're just thinking, oh, hopefully he's going to be all right. And then when you hear the news, it's just, oh my God. Life's so short, isn't it? And his condolences to him and his family. It's just an awful, awful, awful situation.

• 43:27Speaker 00

  Sad note to end on. Um, so for this episode, goodbye from me.

• 43:32Speaker 04

  Goodbye from me.

• 43:33Speaker 03

  Goodbye from me.

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