Pod Insights The Rest Is Football England off to a flyer as Bellingham and Kane take centre stage About this episode Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer, Micah Richards, Harry Maguire, Joe Cole and World Cup winner Patrick Vieira reflect on a brilliant night for England as they opened their campaign with a 4-2 win over Croatia in Dallas.
Jude Bellingham and Harry Kane were at the heart of it all but they also look at Tuchel's selection in defence, his use of the substitutes, and the stern words he had for the team as they went in level at the break.
Plus we look at Cristiano Ronaldo failing to impress as Portugal limped to a 1-1 draw with DR Congo.
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3:07 Speaker 00 Hello and welcome to The Rest Is Football with me, Gary Lineker. In today's show, we're joined by not only Alan Shearer, Micah Richards, Joe Cole and Harry Maguire, but French World Cup winner, the great Patrick Vieira. We'll be discussing England's cracking start to the competition. And don't forget, if you'd like to watch the show, just go to Netflix. We're on every day.
3:31 Speaker 00 Can you tell us what it feels like to win a World Cup?
3:35 Speaker 03 I think you're never going to find out.
3:39 Speaker 03 You're never going to know.
3:44 Speaker 04 Come on, Pat, come on, tell us, please. As England fans, we're just yearning for it so much.
3:49 Speaker 03 It will take too long to explain the feeling and the proudness. And we were lucky because he was in France.
3:56 Speaker 00 Yeah.
3:56 Speaker 03 In home country. In home country. So it's something quite really special.
4:02 Speaker 00 Yeah. Well, I can only begin to imagine. We got fairly close.
4:06 Speaker 05 We were lucky that we got beat off Argentina on penalties, or we might have won it as well. Or maybe not.
4:13 Speaker 00 Big ifs.
4:13 Speaker 05 Big ifs.
4:14 Speaker 00 Big ifs.
4:16 Speaker 00 We'll talk about the other games today, but we've got to start with England, haven't we? What a promising start.
4:23 Speaker 05 Fabulous, fabulous. I thought there were plenty of positives in the first half too, but there were also negatives in terms of the defending. But yeah, I thought the second half was really, really encouraging. I thought the changes the manager made were really positive, really, really positive. And I thought there were some very, very good performances and it was a brilliant start for England.
4:46 Speaker 00 Yeah. Michael, I mean, we, we, we, obviously we all had concerns about selections and all. Did it start to make sense the way England played today? Perhaps some of the people that have been omitted. With...
5:02 Speaker 05 What I'm saying was...
5:06 Speaker 05 Let me pull that knife out there.
5:09 Speaker 04 You see what happens, you know what I mean? You've been nice to him and that's what he does to you. That's me on the pod every single week. No, but in terms of Jude, I mean, come on. We had a debate, didn't we? And it wasn't, it wasn't a debate, but Morgan Rogers, we talked about, fantastic player. But big game players, Jude always delivers. I talked about the pressure of Real Madrid and then translating that to England. He, he always turns up and it's not just his goal he scored. I think his work rate, his intensity was absolutely brilliant today. I like the fact that when Kane was coming really deep, Bellingham was going in behind, Gordon too. I thought Madweke was good as well on transition. I'm just absolutely buzzing because there's too much negativity.
5:53 Speaker 04 Look at him, look at him, look at him. It can't help, it can't help it, can it? I'm not saying it's coming home yet, Pat. But in, but in terms of a positive...
6:02 Speaker 03 How do you say that in French? It's coming home. It's coming home? Yeah. Il arrive à la maison. La maison, the house.
6:12 Speaker 03 Excuse me, is that it?
6:14 Speaker 04 La coupe à la maison?
6:15 Speaker 03 La coupe à la maison.
6:16 Speaker 04 Okay. But it was just, it was just positive, wasn't it?
6:20 Speaker 03 It was a really good performance. I think for the first game of the big tournament like that, you can say that it was a lot of question mark on England and they answered it quite well. But you don't want to build too much excitement.
6:34 Speaker 00 But we always do that.
6:39 Speaker 03 He's good and I don't want to take it away. It was a huge performance and it was a really good performance. I think it was one of the best performances so far in the World Cup. At the same level than the French teams, I would say, than Argentina. But there's still a long way to go.
6:55 Speaker 04 So if England play France now, who do you think would win?
6:59 Speaker 03 That's a real question.
7:00 Speaker 04 Of course it's a real question.
7:02 Speaker 03 The team to beat is France. There's no doubt about it. I think they're the best team in the competition and I believe that they will go to the end and to win the World Cup. But I think that England, with what they showed to this first game, can hurt France, yes, but not win it.
7:21 Speaker 00 A lot of the big players have started the tournament very quickly and you mentioned Jude Bellingham. So let's start with Jude. He became the youngest European player in history to make an appearance at four different major tournaments. UEFA Euros, FIFA World Cup. Aged 22 and 353 days. Indeed, 57% of his England goals have come at major tournaments. Four of seven, the highest ratio of any player with five-plus goals for that three lines. He's a big game player, isn't he?
7:54 Speaker 06 He's got that mentality. We're talking about Morgan Rogers and do you play him, do you not play him? You have to play him in games like this. And Pat will tell you, the personality of the players, like when you're going out there in a big game, you look over and you see you've got Jude Bellingham, you know he's going to produce something at some moment. For me, it was never even in doubt. And I think, like I said to you earlier, Meeks, if England do win the World Cup, Tuchel's going to go, "Yeah, I poked a bear there early on, I wound him up and then get a performance out of him."
8:23 Speaker 04 Do you think he did it purposely though?
8:24 Speaker 06 I do, yeah, I do. Because I think, remember the last Euros, there was talk about Jude, was his personality right? Was things like that? And I think what Tuchel's done is thought, "Let me just put him in his place a little bit and put the team first above Jude." And Jude's responded how I thought he would.
8:45 Speaker 04 You wanted Morgan Rogers to start, why? No, no, no.
8:51 Speaker 05 Two or three minutes was that?
8:55 Speaker 04 No, no, but I understand why, because he's a top quality player. But why would you pick him over Jude? What was your reasoning behind that?
9:04 Speaker 05 My reason was because England had qualified or had played really well under Thomas Tuchel, with Morgan Rogers in the side. And Thomas had always said he's going to be loyal to the players that have helped get England into this position. So that was the reason why I sort of said that. I've never denied that, he's an incredible player and I have no problem with him starting ahead of Morgan. The good thing is, I thought, is that the way he sort of switched it and was really... His substitutions were really refreshing for me because they were really positive at a really sticky time of the game. He could have went all defensive, but he went, "No, I'm not having none of that",
9:47 Speaker 05 and he made really positive substitutions. And those played a huge part in England winning the game. Jed Spence came on, he could have scored, but for a really good save. Morgan Rogers came on, more than played his part. Saka came on, set another sub up. Rashford, who came on, scored the wonderful goal. So I thought his substitutions were, at the right time, were absolutely fantastic and can be really encouraging going forward. Because I think, judging by what he said after the game and his attitude, I think that's the way he's going to go. He's going to say, "This is my way, I'm going to be really positive, you either like it or lump it, and I'll win this competition by being positive or not", and it'll backfire. But I thought everything he did today was spot on.
10:32 Speaker 00 You consider there's a plan there?
10:34 Speaker 07 Yeah, definitely. I think I was really impressed with the second half. I thought the intensity, I think Croatia struggled to keep up with England.
10:44 Speaker 07 I think the first half, the first game of a World Cup is always the most, I feel the most pressure, the most nervous the lads will be. So I think five or six players in that team were playing the first World Cup. So I think the first half, I think you're seeing it a little bit with France as well, like you don't want to come out all guns blazing and you do play with that tiny bit of fear. But what the manager said at half time in terms of, I think H said after the game about, he said if we're going to lose, you lose our way. And I think that took the fear away from the players. And I think the second half, they went on and dominated the game. They could have won by a lot more.
11:17 Speaker 04 Can I just ask you tactically, Tuchel, what's it like when the, what does he want from the players? Because we've seen all this movement with Bellingham going in behind, Kane going really deep. But how tactically astute is Thomas Tuchel?
11:32 Speaker 07 Yeah, I think tactically, I think a lot of people looked at the squad he picked and thought that we were going to sit in and play on the counter attack. But I thought it would be the opposite. I think we've got four lads in the back four who all want to build up. I think picks today was really calm. Really, really calm under pressure. I think the two in centre midfield want to take the ball. I think the wide wingers is big on pressure and counter press. So I think we're going to build up. But I think the flip side of it, I think we're going to do high press and I think we're going to press in their half. And I think you've seen that today, I thought the pressure and the intensity. I think it's the best we've seen England recently.
12:09 Speaker 06 Harry, can I ask you, early on, when Harry Kane was dropping deep and Bellingham was in the number nine position, do you think that was something that was worked on or something the boys just sort of did?
12:17 Speaker 07 Yeah, definitely. I think it's worked. And I think, listen, H is our best player. So he's one of the best players in the world. So the team's got to, you've got to build your team around H. I think we've seen at the last Euros, you had everyone coming to the ball. And when H picks up that ball in the midfield, it scares defenders. Defenders don't know whether to come and go.
12:37 Speaker 00 That's H for Harry Kane, not the guy in line of duty. I want to ask you about England's intensity because I was sitting there watching the game. You were quite impressed with that side of things, playing to England's strengths.
12:54 Speaker 03 Yeah, because I think this is the reflect the Premier League. You know, I think the strength of those group of players is to play with the intensity, try to score goals going forward and try to win the ball as high as they can. And then I think that with the quality of players that they have with Gordon and Madweke on the right hand side, I believe this is a transition players, so they need space to express themselves. So, of course, going to try to win the ball higher when they win it, the other teams are not have time to really reorganise themselves defensively. So there will be situations where they will be in the 1v1 and that is the strength of England
13:38 Speaker 03 and the profile of the players that they had. I think that is refreshing, like Alan was saying earlier, to see England with positive attitude and try to dictate the tempo of the game and to win the game. And I think the tempo was so higher and Croatia was quite really good on the ball in the first half. But the intensity was so higher that I think in the second half physically they dropped and then England went to dominate and create those situations and score those goals. But if they manage to improve that defensive side, I think that will be quite a really difficult teams to play against.
14:13 Speaker 00 I think it's quite notable that England adapted around the way that Harry Kane plays. Did you do something similar to that when you won the World Cup, maybe with Zinedine Zidane?
14:22 Speaker 03 Yeah, you have to, to win the World Cup, your best player has to play at their best. And we talk about Bellingham, he has to... England will not win the World Cup if Bellingham is not at the top of his
14:36 Speaker 00 I'll ask you a bit about Jude because obviously you were a box-to-box midfield player. Yeah. I mean Jude, I think, I watched him today, at times he was playing as a 10, which is where he's put in, at times he was a 9, he played as a 6 at times, you saw him tackling his own box, he was up and down like an 8. He's got that all-round sort of game that you had yourself to a degree.
14:56 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think he's got this kind of power and fitness to really get running all around the pitch, but sometimes I have the feeling that he's losing too much energy.
15:06 Speaker 00 Yeah.
15:07 Speaker 03 And sometimes I have the feeling that he can't choose when is the best time to make those kind of runs or to run with the ball. And I think like one or twice he gets the ball on his feet and he runs and I think he's losing too much energy. I think he can be more dangerous if he keeps controlling himself and he controls his energy and gets into the last third. I think he's somebody who can score more goals, make more assists and have more impact in the England games, but today I think he's part of the 2-3 best midfielder in the world.
15:40 Speaker 05 You know what, I thought today one of, if not the biggest thing, because England have sat for six or seven days watching everyone else play.
15:48 Speaker 03 Yeah, long wait, long wait.
15:50 Speaker 05 Harry Kane, there's Messi, there's Mbappe.
15:53 Speaker 03 Haaland.
15:55 Speaker 05 Haaland, all come on and go straight away and go boof, get their goals. So for him to come in and get the goals as he has done, I know there's the talk about the first one, the penalty miss, keeper did come off the line so it had to be retaken. But then from a mental side of things, there are a million things going through your mind on that second penalty, trying to second guess what the goalkeeper's going to think. But for him to stay so strong and think, no, I'm going to the same side here as the keeper saved it, was really strong. And he's obviously been listening to you because you asked him to keep this guy relevant and he's now
16:30 Speaker 03 Honest!
16:31 Speaker 05 He's now level and it's only a matter of time before he breaks your record.
16:36 Speaker 03 Let's get the stats up please, I want to see the stats. Come on H, run the stats please. Where's the camera I'm talking to? H, thank you so much. Just one more to go, please. And then this guy becomes so irrelevant. Thank you.
16:54 Speaker 00 Can I make a little point on it? I'm absolutely delighted that Kane's...
16:59 Speaker 04 Oh my, you stop the nonsense Gary!
17:02 Speaker 00 Look, there it is.
17:02 Speaker 04 Look at your celebration, okay?
17:04 Speaker 00 I'm still ahead on alphabetical order.
17:08 Speaker 00 And that's all that matters.
17:10 Speaker 04 I know we have a laugh and joke of it, but that is amazing for you, Gary.
17:15 Speaker 00 Well, it's more amazing for Harry than for me.
17:22 Speaker 04 But to have gone to the World Cup, he's amazing.
17:24 Speaker 00 On a serious note, I mean, welcome to the double figures club. It's great. I mean, it may have taken him a World Cup more.
17:35 Speaker 04 This is why we're not giving praise on the show. This is why!
17:40 Speaker 00 I mean, I have to say, in all seriousness, Harry Kane is, I think, the greatest English striker we've ever had. I genuinely think that now. I mean, 80 goals. Alan's not even in the...
17:52 Speaker 04 Are you shaking your head, Alan?
17:54 Speaker 00 Did you see Alan in that top 10 anywhere?
17:56 Speaker 04 Yeah, he was one in Euros, didn't he?
17:58 Speaker 05 Look at the numbers. Look at the numbers. He's a good in the Euros.
18:07 Speaker 00 Harry, you know him well, obviously. Did they not call you H as well?
18:12 Speaker 07 Yeah, we're both confusing. Honestly, you can't speak highly of him, because on the pitch he's unbelievable, but off the pitch he's a massive leader. Even little things about his penalty, what he missed today, I know that he has studied that keeper and knows that if you start him, he'll come off his line. Little things like that, H will...
18:29 Speaker 00 He sort of went straight away, didn't he, appealed as though he knew?
18:32 Speaker 07 He would know that straight away, because I know what he does with his penalties, I don't want to give too much away, but he practises them every single day.
18:40 Speaker 07 But his finishing, his technique, his passing, he has absolute everything.
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20:48 Speaker 00 The one thing I noticed talking about Harry, because we know he drops deep, and we had a lot of conversations in the Euros two years ago about the fact that... We didn't really adapt to that because when he dropped, so did everybody else and we couldn't get out. And I don't think Harry was anything like the condition he is in for this World Cup. I think he was carrying a back injury. But Tuchel seems to, he's worked that out and that's obviously why he's played these high-paced, high-up energy wingers to run past him and Jude Bellingham to go past him as well when he drops deep.
21:19 Speaker 06 All the things you wanted to see from the game, you saw from Thomas Tuchel. And I think Thomas has gone and gone right, Harry Kane's our best player. And then he's built the team around him. You know, managers sometimes, some managers want to build it from the back four, the goalie and that. He's gone right, Harry's my best player, what does he need? He's gone to Bayern Munich, scored 61 goals, he's got runners all around him and he's gone right. And that's probably why Foden and Palmer are not there. Because he's thinking, I need Gordon, I need Rashford, I need Saka and Madueke. One's going to start, one's going to start the game, the other two are going to finish the game. But Harry Kane, the only problem we've got is if Harry gets injured. If Harry gets injured, I don't think he'll go with Watkins or Tony.
21:58 Speaker 00 I think you can say that about all the big teams though, they lost their absolute star.
22:02 Speaker 06 But maybe not France.
22:03 Speaker 00 Possibly with the exception of France. I was going to ask you, I just want to ask you, Pat. Harry Kane or Mbappe?
22:09 Speaker 03 Mbappe, Mbappe with no doubt about it. I don't want to take away Harry's quality because what I love about him is that he's a team player. When I say a team player is that out of possession, I've seen him running, chasing and make it really difficult for the back four. And I think you're right, he has to build the team around the best player on the field. And.
22:34 Speaker 00 Are you saying perhaps that Mbappe is not a team player?
22:39 Speaker 03 No, but Mbappe, we, we want him to do more out of possession, to help the team more when they are in the defensive side. But in the other side, he scored two, three goals per game, so you don't want to take that away as well. So that's why I think they show us this flexibility to play with two really holding midfielders who will stay in front of the back four. But Kane.
23:05 Speaker 03 When he's dropping, you have those two wingers who make the run in behind and that's why I think there was quite a lot of question about Phil Foden, about Palmer, who have quality but different quality from what the manager wants for the England national team. So today we saw a really good England team going forward with Harry Kane coming really deep, getting the ball and dictate the tempo of the game and he's so clever and he's seen the pass, he plays some passes forward for Madueke, Gordon in the other side. So that makes it quite...
23:39 Speaker 00 Do you see similarities between England and France in terms of the way they transition, etcetera?
23:45 Speaker 03 Yeah, I think...
23:46 Speaker 00 The word transition, though.
23:46 Speaker 03 Oh, here we go.
23:51 Speaker 03 No, but I think that England and France are transition teams who need space because the profile of the players that they have, I've seen two really physical, strong teams with a lot of mobility, a lot of pace and I think France are a little bit more stronger behind because Harry is not there.
24:19 Speaker 00 He was just getting over it. Let's talk about Portugal because I think we were all looking forward to seeing them and obviously one of the favourites in the competition, Joe, and they struggled today.
24:32 Speaker 06 They've got all of the ability, you know, Bernardo Silva, Fernandes, you've got so many players.
24:38 Speaker 03 Charles Neves, Batim, yeah.
24:39 Speaker 06 They've got so...
24:40 Speaker 03 All the Champions League.
24:41 Speaker 06 They've got so much players. Cristiano, I think we've seen two players today that might... One was pulled off, Luka Modric. I think his manager pulled him off six minutes. Luka Modric, I think, has been the best...
24:53 Speaker 00 Two players in their 40s, you're talking about.
24:55 Speaker 06 Exactly. He's been the best midfielder in the last 10 years. He's been brilliant. Cristiano Ronaldo is Cristiano Ronaldo, but what benefit is he going to be of trying to play every minute of every game for eight games Portugal's won? Portugal have a chance, but he needs to be used sparingly, Ronaldo. He can't be starting every moment of every game and the manager's got to be strong enough to go...
25:16 Speaker 05 You mean the reaction that Luka Modric was not happy to be taken off but so accepted. I didn't play that well and I'll just come off us. Whereas if Roberto had attempted to take Cristiano off, it'll gonna be a big show, isn't it?
25:30 Speaker 06 Yeah, the Federation will be on him.
25:32 Speaker 04 Can I just ask you from a manager's point of view? You've been in the hot seat, Patrick. Alan has been, but you know.
25:40 Speaker 06 Briefly.
25:43 Speaker 04 Anthony did have that well. You've been in the hot seat and you have a conundrum of Ronaldo. He's still scoring goals in Saudi. His movement in the box is very good. But he's limiting the way that they really want to play. So put yourself in Roberto Martinez's shoes. I've worked with him. He's tactically, he's amazing. But has he got a problem with solving Ronaldo and what he needs to do with that?
26:13 Speaker 03 Of course, it's a huge problem for the manager. But as a manager, how do you want to sit down with Ronaldo and tell him, listen, you're gonna be on the bench, you're not gonna start today? He will never gonna understand it because he never been in that situation. So you have to, he will not gonna understand because the player is, he doesn't understand how Ronaldo, me are not starting the game. It's not possible. He never been in that situation. So of course, it's a difficult situation for the manager because he has to think about the team. And he is a Portugal manager, not Ronaldo's manager. So he has to think about the team first before thinking about Ronaldo.
26:57 Speaker 03 So he will have to make some really strong decision not to start him if the team is better without him.
27:05 Speaker 06 How would you do?
27:06 Speaker 04 But what would you do? Would you bench him then or no?
27:08 Speaker 03 You bench him or you will not select him.
27:10 Speaker 00 Before you answer that, he's now gone 10 consecutive games without scoring a goal at major tournaments for Portugal. 10. FIFA World Cups and Euros, the longest run of his international career. His last strike in either of the two competitions was against Ghana on matchday one of the 2022 World Cup. I worry for him a little bit, that his legacy will be spoilt a little bit. If he kicks off and he gets taken off and then he has a strap and all that. Because he has been for two decades, an extraordinarily wonderful footballer. And it seems to me it might end up a little bit sad if it all goes to pot.
27:50 Speaker 05 Roberto is not leaving him out?
27:51 Speaker 00 No, I don't think he will either.
27:53 Speaker 04 Would you leave him out, Pat, now? Would you, as a manager, you've been in that situation.
27:58 Speaker 00 You've got to be strong.
27:59 Speaker 04 Would you leave him out? We've got Gonzalo Ramos to come in.
28:02 Speaker 03 We're talking about Cristiano Ronaldo. In Portugal, he's more than just a player. So for me, it's about, you need to build that mindset for him to start, to know that when he's going to get to the World Cup, he will play, he's not going to play, he's going to come from the bench. And you have to find a way to make him understand that. So for me, it's about how do you prepare him mentally to know that when he will get to the World Cup, he's not going to be in the starting eleven. You have to prepare him for that.
28:36 Speaker 00 Just a conversation.
28:37 Speaker 03 But you need to have a conversation with him and to say, listen, I can't leave you at home, I have to take you to the World Cup because of who you are. But you need to understand that I'm the Portugal manager.
28:48 Speaker 04 So would you leave him out? Or are you just going to sit on that?
28:51 Speaker 03 You have to make him understand, if as a manager, you strongly believe that Portugal are better without Ronaldo, you have to make a decision and then you're not going to start him. But you have to accept that after that, you need to win the game.
29:07 Speaker 04 Joe, you're a sparring coach. Would you leave him out?
29:11 Speaker 06 If I'm Portugal manager?
29:12 Speaker 04 If you're a Portugal manager?
29:13 Speaker 06 Six months ago, I'd have gone to his house in Saudi and said, listen Cristiano, this is what I'm thinking. Eight games, I don't think you can play them all, but I need you with me. The offer on the table is come with me, I might start you a couple of games, then you might be on the bench. I'm going to need you to finish games, because games will go to 120 minutes and a penalty shootout. I need you for a penalty shootout. Do you want to be with me and we will do this together and we'll make Portugal world champions? If you want that, come with me. If you don't want it, I've got my flight booked.
29:46 Speaker 06 I hope I've still got a contract in the morning. But I think it needed to be done six months ago. Yeah. And you need to be strong with it because he's such a... Listen, I think he's the second best player of all time. Behind Messi. I think he's amazing, but he's 41.
30:03 Speaker 00 That's it for this episode of The Rest Is Football. After a great start for England, we're all very excited, but let's not get too carried away. Or maybe we should. Don't forget, we're on every day on Netflix.
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