Arsenal’s Defensive Masterclass, Martinez Madness & Brighton For The Champions League

Arsenal deliver a defensive masterclass to beat Liverpool at Anfield for the first time in 14 years, in yet another 1-0 victory. Where does this Arsenal defence rank among the greats of the Premier League era? After a promising first half, it all goes wrong again for Michael Carrick and Manchester United at Stamford Bridge. United fans are calling for Lisandro Martinez never to play for the club again after his red card. Do they have a point, or is it a massive overreaction? Gary, Alan and Micah also predict a Champions League spot for Brighton, but could they go one better and challenge for the title? 10 for £100. Stay 10 nights, get £100 back in Hotels.com Cash. UK Customers Only. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:53Speaker 00

  Hello and welcome to the Rest is Football. Arsenal move to the top of the Premier League after another 1-0 victory, this time over Liverpool at Anfield. That's another clean sheet and another example of just how difficult they are to break down. Alan, if Arsenal are going to go one better and win the back-to-back Premier League titles this season, surely their defence will be their foundation. What makes them so good at the back and so difficult to score against?

• 2:19Speaker 04

  Well, including the goalkeeper, they've got an unbelievable back five, but it's not just that back five that are brilliant, the protection they get. And I spoke to Declan Rice after the game yesterday and I asked him about that, how much work goes into working as a unit and also working as a midfielder and the protection that you give them. You see him and what he does, what the midfielders do also when, one, they're stopping balls going into the forwards, two, they're stopping anything that gets in there. But when you're just going to all of a sudden put, throw crosses into the box, that's food and drink for Arsenal's back four. They're so strong, they're so powerful in the air. They get the line of the cross very, very early and that's a skill in itself.

• 3:04Speaker 04

  So you're not going to beat them on your own. You have to perform as a team and you have to do things as a team because one person is not going to do it specifically. And I guess that has been such a strength of Arsenal's now for such a long time. I mean, we all know that if you keep clean sheets like they do, then you are going to get chances throughout the year, throughout the game. That's what Arsenal do. For me, there's no doubt that they are the best back five, six in world football, so difficult to play against, so tough, so hard, physical and can play as well.

• 3:40Speaker 05

  But don't you think it's as well, Al, it's the appetite that we've got for it?

• 3:44Speaker 04

  They enjoy it. They actually enjoy defending.

• 3:46Speaker 05

  It's so strange to see, I was doing the game yesterday, I saw you at the ground, didn't you?

• 3:51Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 3:51Speaker 05

  You was working for another broadcaster. I just love, you know, there's an art to defending and I know the modern day fullback and defenders want to step out and build up and I get all that sort of stuff, but they absolutely enjoy defending, which is just amazing to see. Seeing the way they step up together, the way they drop together, the organisation. And I think what's even more brilliant to see is the fact that Konzer's come straight into the squad and being so good. I thought with Saliba being missing and then even Hinkapi last season was very good, but Calafiore's pretty much nailed that left back spot now. Timber outstanding again, but you cannot forget about Ben White.

• 4:36Speaker 05

  Every time Ben White comes in the squad, he had a little bit of a wobble. Remember last season in the FA Cup and I thought, ooh. But then ever since then, he's been fantastic. So it's not just essentially the four at the back, it's their subs too, who buy into exactly what the manager wants to do. And if they keep performing like that defensively, then they'll win the Premier League again.

• 4:59Speaker 00

  I suppose the thing you have to bear in mind here, Micah, is it take an absolute fool to leave out a couple of the Arsenal defenders and put them on their bench for fantasy, wouldn't it?

• 5:09Speaker 05

  You know what? I'm done.

• 5:11Speaker 04

  I know what's coming.

• 5:12Speaker 05

  I'm done. You know what? I'm sick, I'm sick to death. I'm sick to death. Right, I said last week, do you want to say, it had Calafiore 50% again or 75% and I'm thinking, has he got a knock that I don't know about? So I thought, let me just put, I took a gamble. I played my wild card and he sat, looked good, his movement was there, but I kept Raye, I thought, you know, let me give myself a little bit of a, what's the word I'm looking for?

• 5:42Speaker 00

  Some glimmer of hope.

• 5:44Speaker 05

  Yes, a little bit of a glimmer, just a little bit of a glimmer. I thought, you know what? Just in case, a bit of a safety net, the safety net I was looking for, Raye. And then I took out Calafiore and I took out Konzer and they got 18 points, guys. 18 points on my bench. I'm done with the game, I've had enough. I've had enough, I'm retiring, I'm retiring.

• 6:08Speaker 00

  I just got a note from Haas saying, Mike, you need to watch the press conferences where he was declared fit, Calafiore, so.

• 6:14Speaker 05

  It was too late, it was, I was doing other things. I can't watch everything, I'm watching football. I watch 10 games a week, guys, at least 10 games on YSCAR. I'm watching them. I ain't got time to do press conferences. I take, I take my information from Premier League, I check it Saturday morning, is everyone fit? And it said, oh, there's a bit of a problem with Calafiore, don't take the risk. I take him out and then he goes and gets the points. I've had enough, I'm done, I'm done.

• 6:43Speaker 04

  Let me ask you, because I guess in terms of being a forward, you, you've seen and played against some brilliant back fours. I mean, we go back to Arsenal, Adams, Ball, Dixon, Winterburn, Seaman, the Invincibles, Chelsea, when they had those, what, 25 clean sheets in that, in that season, the best ever, wasn't it? 15 goals they conceded. How, how does this Arsenal, and I know they shift around and I know they change players, but in terms of ability wise, what do you think?

• 7:14Speaker 00

  Chelsea did it for a few years, didn't they? I mean, they were so good defensively. I think generally it's the two central defenders are the ones that they very rarely change. It's very difficult to compare different eras, but I suppose nowadays there are bigger squads and more rotation. There wouldn't have been much of that back. It was pretty much a very consistent back four.

• 7:38Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:39Speaker 00

  But this one, if they keep going, I mean, the interesting question for me here is what is Arsenal's best back four now? Because Saliba's been out obviously all this season. Does he get back in? Because I think Konzer's been absolutely outstanding and he's obviously new to this back four. So maybe in a year or two's time, they might have a different back four that we can compare to the one that obviously had Saliba in it. So, and does he get straight back in? I suspect not until someone at the back starts making a few mistakes and they don't seem to make many mistakes. But I don't know, which one do you think, Al? Carvalho and John Terry was pretty strong.

• 8:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, Terry and Carvalho would take some beating, but I tell you what, those two yesterday, Konzer and Gabriel, they're solid, they're tough, they're aggressive, aren't they? I mean, do you know, I was, I was sat like three or four yards from where Micah was sat and I was just next to Arteta and how all their staff are at them to be as aggressive and as quick. It was, it was brilliant to see again because you, you don't sit there very often, you, you might forget how aggressive it is actually on the touchline, how quick they are. And it was those, those two at the back for Arsenal. They they they'd take some getting by those two, I just thought they were fantastic.

• 8:58Speaker 05

  Just to add to that though, I I don't think you can can compare. And I think if you if you have to compare, I think you've got to go with with Chelsea. Look at the strikers back then that Chelsea had to face. So, yes, the game's moved on and we we we love the the the modern game. But look at the strikers back then, and especially 4-4-2.

• 9:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 9:21Speaker 05

  Like what what they had to deal with. If you look at what Arsenal had to deal with yesterday, you've got Isak really, you've got Bakola who's who's coming into it and he'll and he'll get there at some point. But it's it's not too up front where you're having to deal with the the physical presence. Everyone talks about systems and styles of play. But back then, I remember when I first broke in at Man City and I had people like Jason Roberts to contend. It it was just a it was a beast, John Carew. Those sort of players where, yes, they might not have the ability going forward as of what the players have now, but that that physical presence was was was different back then.

• 10:04Speaker 05

  And that's what the Chelsea boys in that era had to deal with. So I would say physically, for sure, I I think that Chelsea defence had it a little bit harder.

• 10:14Speaker 04

  Fifteen goals conceded that Chelsea defence.

• 10:17Speaker 05

  Unbelievable, fifteen.

• 10:18Speaker 04

  Thirty eight goals, fifteen all season.

• 10:21Speaker 00

  Let me ask you one question. As a defender, is it easier to play against two up top like it used to be? So let's say a 4-4-2 where you've got two strikers and they're trying to run in the channels and some go, one goes short, one goes long. Or is it more difficult now where you've just got one central striker and two wide players that are not quite wingers, but they're not quite central strikers that drift in, say like Mo Salah? Is it, but there are three altogether rather than two. What's the more difficult for a defender?

• 10:54Speaker 05

  Ooh. It's it's very good question, guys. In Arsenal's system, I would say it's easy to play now. So playing against a three because they're really tucked in. But back then, I think playing against, if if your team wants to play on front foot and essentially you're man versus man in a 4-4-2, I think it's it's harder to it's harder to play against that. Because you you get more isolated, but the way Arsenal play, everyone's tucked in, Timber's in, Calafiore's in on the ball, and then you've got Rice and Bruno and even Odegaard drops in. But not only that, you've got Madweke when he plays and Zolli's tucked in really as well.

• 11:38Speaker 05

  So you you're not really getting the opportunity. If it was Mane, Salah and Firmino, now that would be difficult to play against because of the movement. So what happened with that? You wouldn't know really what to do because Firmino used to take defenders away and the Mane used to come into that space. So that would be difficult. But in terms of, I I think it all depends on the system, guys. I think equally can be as hard, but I feel it depends what the manager wants. So in Arsenal's side and right now, it'd be easier to play because you're getting more protection, I think.

• 12:14Speaker 00

  I've got a list of strikers from that era of 2004, 2005, prime Mourinho, prime Chelsea's defence. People like Thierry Henry, Andy Johnson, Jimmy Floyd, Jermaine Defoe, I'd have good Johnson. Chelsea again, Peter Crouch, Andy Cole, Yakubu, Robbie Keane, Robbie Fowler, Wayne Rooney.

• 12:37Speaker 05

  This is what I mean, look, look at the depth.

• 12:40Speaker 00

  Tim Cahill.

• 12:41Speaker 05

  Come on, come on, guys.

• 12:42Speaker 00

  Shaun Wright Phillips, Emile Heskey was still around then.

• 12:45Speaker 05

  Big Heskey.

• 12:47Speaker 04

  Any danger chucking my name in there?

• 12:49Speaker 00

  Were you still going there now?

• 12:50Speaker 04

  Come on, lads.

• 12:52Speaker 00

  Were you still going 2004-5?

• 12:54Speaker 04

  Yeah, I retired in 2006. I mean, I was on my last legs, but I still get.

• 12:59Speaker 00

  Exactly, that's why I didn't want to embarrass you.

• 13:00Speaker 04

  Twenty a season, I mean, come on.

• 13:02Speaker 00

  Yeah, fair point now.

• 13:03Speaker 04

  Micah says fifty or twenty this season is a world beater.

• 13:06Speaker 05

  We'll we'll we'll get to that, don't you worry about that, we'll get to that. We will get to that, we've got plenty of time for that.

• 13:12Speaker 00

  Micah, Konzer or Saliba?

• 13:14Speaker 05

  Oh. No, I I would I would still say Saliba. Don't, let's not forget, Saliba won the title last season and got to the Champions League final last season and he was consistent. I think I said last year he was the best defender in Europe. So as it stands, because of what I've done, you have to go off the evidence that would say Saliba right now, but Konzer.

• 13:42Speaker 04

  Brilliant piece of business.

• 13:43Speaker 05

  And I remember JT called it early. He said, if Saliba gets an injury or when he was out injured, I don't think Saliba will get back in because Konzer's that good. And obviously it was with him at Villa and he's coached him and all that sort of thing. And I thought, ooh, if JT's saying that, it must have a little bit of substance. And I thought, I I wouldn't say I didn't agree with it, I thought, let me see. But he's been proven right at the moment because he's been that good.

• 14:09Speaker 00

  I think Konzer is probably ultimately a better defender. I think, no, I think Saliba's got the odd mistake in him.

• 14:19Speaker 05

  Okay, that that's probably fair. That's fair, that's fair, yeah.

• 14:23Speaker 00

  I think, and Konzer, I've not really seen that yet. I mean, everyone's got a mistake in them, but you know what I mean? It's probably makes fewer mistakes, but he's only been, you know, but he was brilliant in the World Cup. Konzer and Konzer can also switch to right back as well if if needed for for Arsenal, but they've got plenty.

• 14:40Speaker 05

  Not not anymore now, Timber's there, when Timber's back, not anymore.

• 14:44Speaker 00

  Yeah, although they had a lot of space down the left hand side, Liverpool in the first half. I mean, he he adjusted that at half time. Barclay was causing him a lot of trouble down the left, Gattuso crosses it.

• 14:57Speaker 05

  Did you see that tactic that they was doing though? It was it was really interesting. I did a little bit on on Match of the Day last night, but we didn't have in depth because we didn't have that much time to to do it. But they was purposely trying to do that. You see, N'Golo was sort of going into a back three. So Madweke didn't really know what to do, which one to press. And in the first half, he got caught out so many times and once earlier in the second half where he was sort of following N'Golo and then Bakola got a load of space and then he should see on the sideline. You know, actually being on the bench, because I was sat.

• 15:33Speaker 00

  Must have reminded you of your playing career, Mike.

• 15:40Speaker 05

  The information, and I and I won't tell you the information that the guys were saying because I feel like it it's private. I feel like I was privy to information that I shouldn't really know or should be hearing. But what I would say is it was interesting to see Areola when things were working and things wasn't happening. And he was constantly saying to Kirk, go, go, go. And it's almost like, we've got a tactic, there's so much space. We've left Bakola 1v1, so him to drive inside for you to take the oh, the outside and cross it in. And there was a couple of occasions in the first half where it happened really well. But it's almost like Kirk has lost a bit of confidence.

• 16:25Speaker 05

  And I know he's not played well this season and he's been fantastic for for Bournemouth in the past. But it's almost like they had to keep telling him how good he was because he he'd lost a bit of confidence, which was a little bit strange to see really, because someone who's so good on the ball going forward needed the manager to keep, you know, telling him and sort of, I don't know, having to give him confidence, which was strange.

• 16:50Speaker 04

  Micah, just before we get on to Liverpool, did you, I don't know whether, did you find the fourth official as annoying as I did?

• 16:57Speaker 05

  Mate, one thing, get out of the way, I can't see the game.

• 17:01Speaker 04

  That's one.

• 17:02Speaker 05

  I can't see, I can't see the game, why are you stood there?

• 17:06Speaker 04

  I was getting so annoyed and his attitude and his behaviour towards the the both benches when someone stood up, I mean, he spent, oh, please can you sit down? He's like, he thought he was a fucking headmaster. It was like, I was like, honestly, mate, pipe down, you're a fourth official.

• 17:26Speaker 00

  Pipe down, you're a fourth official.

• 17:28Speaker 05

  All he was doing, he was looking right, looking right and looking left and was just like, sit down, sit down. I was just like, what is going on here? It's pointless. Like, he's a good fourth official as well, I know the guy, but I just feel so...

• 17:43Speaker 00

  Hang on a minute, Micah, you just said the words, he's a good fourth official. What does a fourth official do apart from tell the manager?

• 17:51Speaker 05

  He's a good referee and he's a good linesman. That's what I meant. But his job there, I don't understand what he's doing. All he's there for is to take abuse. So I was talking about what he's saying. I think he almost was quite performative. Like, he has to do that because otherwise he's just gonna get hammered. It's the most ridiculous job ever. This side to my right, Iriola and my old mate, Tommy Elphick was on the bench, he's one of the coaches, that man, and every two minutes it's going up to him. And then the other side, I tend to wave with his hands. I'm just like, what is going on here?

• 18:28Speaker 04

  Oh no, I was the same.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  While we're on the officials, Isak, penalty, pull on his shirt?

• 18:34Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 18:35Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was a pen.

• 18:36Speaker 04

  Seriously, I knew the line they were gonna come out with straight away, because I said it. I said, they're gonna come out and say at half time it wasn't sustained holding.

• 18:44Speaker 00

  Sustained holding?

• 18:45Speaker 04

  Honestly, which...

• 18:46Speaker 00

  Is that in the rules?

• 18:47Speaker 04

  Well, yes, sustained holding.

• 18:48Speaker 00

  How long is sustained?

• 18:50Speaker 04

  That's what I said. What does it matter whether someone pulls a shirt for one second or five seconds? If Isak, like he was, millimetres off heading that ball, one tugging him, has to alter his stride, therefore he's cost them a goal scoring opportunity. And the reason Timber pulls his shirt forward, because he's out of position and he knows he's done.

• 19:10Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  So he had to stop him. And he did, clearly. I mean, the other two were not penalties, but that one, it has to be a pull on his shirt. Come on.

• 19:19Speaker 05

  Guys, you're the smart one. Explain to us sustained holding.

• 19:23Speaker 00

  Me?

• 19:23Speaker 05

  Yes, because you're articulate.

• 19:25Speaker 00

  Well, I think sustained means that you hold on to the shirt for at least 25 minutes. So on this occasion, it was just like a two seconds. One, two. So it was 23 minutes and sure, this is why I've always said it can't work in its present form, BAR, because they have to judge, what's enough? Is it sustained long enough as a hold to justify a turnover?

• 19:52Speaker 04

  Yeah, but that's rubbish, isn't it?

• 19:53Speaker 00

  I mean, it's nonsense. It's either a foul or it's not a foul. And then is it serious enough to turn over? It's unworkable because sometimes it's a clear and obvious error.

• 20:03Speaker 04

  This is the issue where referees making the rules or the laws, referees are deciding these nonsense. Come on. It's a pull of a shirt. It doesn't matter whether it's a second or five. You stopped him from getting to the ball. Clear pull, penalty, simple.

• 20:18Speaker 00

  Totally agree. As a striker, Al, you know when you're playing against the best defences, do you do anything differently? Or, I mean, I used to say it's important the service is really good in those circumstances. You've got to get on to your wingers to get the ball in early so you can make your runs and then keep making your runs against the better defenders. But it's not all down to you. And that's why sometimes people, you know, they'll go, well, Erling Haaland, you know, he didn't really get any touches in the game. Because basically, he's trying to wait for the moment to make his runs in the area. So you are reliant as a striker on people getting the ball in the box.

• 20:58Speaker 00

  Liverpool had a lot of crosses, particularly in the first half, almost 20. It was in the late teens. And there was not a lot of movement in the box. The one time there was, Isak gets in front of him, gets his shirt pulled back. But there were a lot of really good deliveries in there, which the Liverpool players didn't get on the end of, aside from McAllister's header, which you wouldn't have wanted it to fall to anyone else because he's so good normally in those positions and under those circumstances. But you are reliant as a striker. What you've got to do is, if you're not getting much of a look and you've got to persist.

• 21:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 21:36Speaker 00

  I think that's the important thing. Persist in making your runs, persist in making your runs and eventually a ball will come in.

• 21:40Speaker 04

  Which is hard when the balls are not coming in or where you want them to come in. I thought the Arsenal defence dealt with the ball. They were much better, the Arsenal defence, particularly second half and Liverpool's forwards. I was really disappointed in Liverpool's forwards, actually, because considering what they've paid, considering the ability, I'm thinking, come on. All right, you're up against a brilliant defence, but there's a reasons why they paid over £100 million for you guys. I thought Wirtz was poor again. He struggled physically.

• 22:09Speaker 05

  What's going on there, guys? Obviously, Barcol is a good player. We wouldn't say, or Lamine, the dream. But in terms of how they want to play and what you would want now with essentially a 4-2-3-1, you know, you've got Dat Po played on the right, which is always a little bit different because he normally plays on the left. But what do you want to see more from these guys? Are they still learning off each other? Is it because the manager wants them to press high? How do you get the best out of these forwards?

• 22:43Speaker 04

  Well, I thought there were signs of improvement before yesterday's game. I thought they were just starting one or two little things that you could notice, little flicks and tricks and understanding of each other's game. I was thinking, okay, that's fine. Let's see what you've got against the big boys, the best defence. And I wasn't impressed with any of it, to be honest. I mean, yeah, McAllister had the absolute sitter. But other than that, they huffed and puffed and they never got any joy, really. As I said, I think Wirtz is really struggling physically and with the pace of the Premier League, Isak, there wasn't a lot from him. And also Barcol, I think, come on, it's like, a lot of the time I'm thinking, you're moving the ball and perhaps crossing it, maybe the easy way out. When someone's as mean as Arsenal are, you're looking for a bit of magic.

• 23:27Speaker 04

  That's why you pay the big, big money for one of them to undo that lock, you know? For one of them to produce that piece of brilliance that you're waiting for. There wasn't any of that, I didn't think, from Liverpool yesterday, particularly second half.

• 23:40Speaker 05

  Can I just ask you guys quickly on Wirtz? Because I think you didn't go over the top like I did at the start because I've obviously watched him from a young age and his talent is just remarkable. But why is it not working? What's going on?

• 23:59Speaker 04

  Physicality and the pace of the game, I think.

• 24:00Speaker 05

  No, but I always thought, Al, that his brain and his touch was quick enough to play in the Premier League, you know? So I don't understand it. And like you talk about the big players and I'm just thinking, when's Wirtz gonna have his big moment, you know, in a big game and be decisive? And you're just waiting for it to come and it's just, it's just not arriving, you know?

• 24:27Speaker 04

  Agreed, agreed. Yes, I said it before the game yesterday, I said, right, we have seen the odd bits of brilliance from him, there's no doubt about it. He's got incredible skill, but he has to do it on a more regular basis and he has to do it in the games like that, like yesterday.

• 24:42Speaker 00

  I've watched him a lot now, as all of us have. I think obviously it's probably slightly tougher than Bundesliga, who's playing a very good team at the time. And I think the Bundesliga is a very strong league and there's some great teams in there, obviously. But I don't think you come across strong teams every week like you do in the Premier League. There's much greater depth in the Premier League. And I think trying to assess it, it is slightly baffling because he was superb in that and we all expected great things of him, as did Liverpool, as did probably himself. But I think the mind plays games with you as well.

• 25:22Speaker 00

  And mental strength for me is just as important as ability, technically. You've got to have both. I don't know his mind, but is his confidence drained a bit? We know important confidence is. It's now over season. So I'm just cutting him some slack weight for the second season. With some players, they just ultimately, for some reason, don't go on and improve. I mean, he might be like that. It might be the style of our football. It might be the physicality. It's really hard to know unless you know someone really well, you know, his personality, his character, whether he's strong enough mentally. But, you know, technically he's generally very good,

• 26:06Speaker 00

  but he's not really making a huge difference to Liverpool. So it's a slightly baffling one. I'm with you, Micah. I thought it was gonna be an absolute revelation in the Premier League and it surprised me. It's football. You never know with players. They can go suddenly off the boil. And then sometimes they can come back and sometimes they don't. Now, I wish him well and I hope he finds that success. But the longer this run without providing decent numbers, both in terms of assists and goals and overall play, the harder it will be for him. I worry for him a bit. They've spent a lot of money on him as well, whether that's weighed on his shoulders.

• 26:47Speaker 00

  I don't know whether players actually really do think about that when they've been transferred. Again, I come back to the mental strength side of things. And ultimately, that is, that's a very powerful thing, your mind.

• 27:00Speaker 05

  He's just got to be careful. I think you raise a good point in terms of, you've got to be in the right place mentally and maybe it's knocked a little bit of confidence out of him, not playing really well. But he's not doing the things he's supposed to be good at. That's what's worrying me. In the game where...

• 27:20Speaker 05

  Okay, if you're a playmaker or someone who can keep the ball and keep ticking over, but he's making the wrong decisions even with that. So the ball came to him in the game, once he thinking, just turn out. And we're talking about a simple ball or whatever, but he's giving the ball away. And I'm just thinking, what's happened to Verts? And it's even harder now because the manager wants a team that can press. He likes Neoni, as you've seen, obviously, Graham Burch was on the bench. He likes McAllister, he's been good this season. But at some point, Graham Burch will come back into the team. But he's also going to bring Sabozli. So if you're looking to be a high-energy team,

• 28:02Speaker 05

  then he's probably going to end up on the bench because Sabozli will probably play in the number 10, which then becomes a little bit worrying. So I'm not writing him off just yet. Not yet, but he needs to improve massively, like, right now.

• 28:18Speaker 00

  I know, I would say also, I mean, I know you were very critical of Liverpool's performance, Alan particularly. I thought in the first half, that looked a bit more like Iriola's side. I think that, I think the energy inside of things was really good. They got a lot of crosses in and under normal circumstances, you know, you'd score from one or two of those, even against a side as good as Arsenal. So I actually thought in that, there's a bit more to that performance than I've seen, perhaps in previous performances this season. I just, he's brought back the high-energy, high-octane football, perhaps that Klopp did. Don't forget Klopp a while as well, although he didn't have the players when he first took over.

• 29:02Speaker 00

  So I think it's worth being patient with Iriola because you could see something. I think they probably ran out of steam after about an hour and made changes. I look at their squad, I think it's pretty, pretty good overall, even though, you know, one or two of the big-name signings haven't worked yet, Verts being one of them. But there comes a point when you've got that kind of squad depth, where you're just going to have to say, well, you might have cost £130 million or something, but I'm sorry, this kid Ungomoh is quite good. And he's getting game. I was very impressed with Neoni, you just mentioned him. I thought, he's got a little bit of, and maybe again, we've got a Spanish coach at Liverpool,

• 29:43Speaker 00

  he's got a bit of that kind of Spanish-y holding, a little bit, a little bit of a pivot kind of player that we don't generally produce. I've got these stats here, pretty impressive, Micah. He completed 96% of his passes in today's match. I know that can be misleading sometimes with a lot of side balls.

• 30:01Speaker 05

  You've still got to do it.

• 30:02Speaker 00

  Still got to keep it. 53 out of 55 completed, the highest against an Arsenal side since Fabinho in November 2021. So very encouraging, I think, signs for a young player. What was he, 19?

• 30:17Speaker 05

  Yeah, I do like him. I like his spatial awareness. I like his calmness. I like the way tactically, when the manager wants him to go into a back three, that's probably where a lot of his passes came from in terms of the 90%, but he's picking the right pass. But also not that, he was told to press as well. So one minute, he was going into the back line, into that free. And then when the ball went to Akurkez or Bakola, he was having to get right up and press. So it looks like he's got that energy. But it's nice to see a different type of player. You know, when we talked about Rio, yes, he's tricky, he can run in behind, he entertains.

• 30:58Speaker 05

  But it's nice to see a young player playing with his mind as well and a little bit of control. So I totally agree with you, Gus.

• 31:04Speaker 04

  I think Liverpool, bit inconsistent. One week, I think they're very good. Next, it's up, and I think it'll be like the season, but I think Liverpool will be finishing fourth, fifth or sixth. I think that's where they are. And yeah, there are signs that he's getting to get them to do what he wants to do. But yeah, I think they'll be fourth, fifth or sixth.

• 31:25Speaker 00

  Okay, let's take a little breather there. We'll be back very shortly.

• 31:31Speaker 00

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• 33:08Speaker 00

  Welcome back to The Rest is Football with Alan Shearer, Micah Richardson and me, Gary Lineker. Let's turn our attention, well, Manchester United again. I mean, I think we've said a lot about Manchester United. And once again, there's a bit of controversy with Martinez and as he got his second yellow card, giving away a penalty as he walked off the pitch, there was a very deliberate effort on Michael Carrick's behalf, not to look at him at all. So the problems continue for Manchester United, even though I actually thought they played quite well in the first half.

• 33:45Speaker 05

  Not quite well, they were excellent, Gus, weren't they? Don't you think there was really good combinations?

• 33:51Speaker 00

  I only said quite good because there's a very important part of football. To make it very good, you have to finish the chances that come along. But yes, Micah, tactically, energy, everything.

• 34:04Speaker 05

  What do we say, a game of two halves? If we say that the first half, they were excellent by the finish. And that would have been, what would we use, exceptional? If we would have had a couple of them finishes with Diallo, Ahmad, wouldn't we? But yes, I would agree with you. I thought Manchester United, you know, when you're looking at performances and you're going through a bad time and you're like, you're trying to pick the positives out of the game and you're like, there's not many there, there's not many. Actually, if you look at the first half, there should have been two, maybe even three, nil up, or maybe three, one up.

• 34:38Speaker 00

  Well, Ahmad missed a few, as you said, and Bruno missed a really good chance, not that he'd normally put away.

• 34:42Speaker 05

  Yeah, so you have to give him a little bit of credit, but then it is 90-minute game, isn't it? And then it sort of all went downhill in the second half. And I feel a little bit sorry for Martinez. I do. Because

• 34:58Speaker 04

  Why?

• 34:58Speaker 05

  No, I do, because he came out.

• 35:01Speaker 04

  Really?

• 35:01Speaker 05

  Came out, he came out. And he tried to give an honest assessment of what was going on.

• 35:08Speaker 00

  Are you talking a few weeks ago when he's criticised him?

• 35:11Speaker 05

  A few weeks ago, when they're talking about, he wanted more players and the behind-the-scenes, have got to take a little bit more responsibility. And I think that takes balls to do that. I didn't really see the angle where he was saying it was against his teammates. I don't think it was against his teammates. I just think he was saying, we need more numbers to build on last season.

• 35:34Speaker 00

  I think we'd all agree with that.

• 35:36Speaker 05

  Yeah, but it was sort of, a lot of people was going the angle where he's throwing his teammates under the bus. And I get that, but I didn't think that was the case. But then it comes out and then you're the one who talk. But if you talk, you've got to play well. And unfortunately, he come off on one of the games at half time and then he goes and gets sent off again. It's almost like you try to do the right thing, you try to back your team, but unfortunately, you're the problem at the moment because you're not playing well enough. And when he's fit, he's probably Man United's best centre half. So I feel sorry for the fact that he's tried to, you know, come out there and put his chest out and say,

• 36:19Speaker 05

  yes, I'm within, I'm ready for the fight. I want to talk, I'm frustrated. We talk about interviews and players not giving anything. He was emotional, he cares. I liked a bit of that. This is a World Cup winner, by the way, and he tried to stand up for his teammates. But ultimately, on the pitch, the last couple of games, he's not been good enough. So that's why I feel sorry for him. And not in terms of his performance.

• 36:42Speaker 04

  The last couple of games?

• 36:44Speaker 05

  All the last couple of games. I just, I just feel as though...

• 36:46Speaker 04

  You've not been watching Man United all season, no?

• 36:49Speaker 05

  No, but, no, but him, he's, when, when he's been, when he's fit, Martinez, and that's one of the problems as well, he's not been fit enough. When he's fit, they are a better side with him in it. It's just this season, he's not been that great. Is that fair?

• 37:03Speaker 04

  I don't know how you can protect him and feel sorry for him after what he's done. He'd only let, you know, the manager is about to lose his job. The club is in turmoil. The noise around them is as loud as it has been for years. And he thinks it's a good idea to get a yellow card and then do that on the pitch. I mean, Michael must be thinking, what the hell? I mean, come on, you're an experienced centre half. I need everyone together today, lads. I need all my experience. I need everyone pulling in the same direction. Yeah. Martinez thinks it was a good idea to go and dive in like that and get another yellow card and give a penalty away. I mean...

• 37:43Speaker 00

  I'm gonna go from a slightly different angle. I don't think it was like anything deliberate, even though it looked it. I think what's happened there, he's had a moment of panic because he's lost his man. He's lost his man and he's going, where is he? And there he is. And from that point, and he didn't look at the ball at all. And as the ball comes over, he's running towards him. He's just, obviously just trying to block him off, which we see from every corner, every time, forever. But he's, he went in with, I don't think he deliberately went to try and do him with his arm. I think he's just gone in there, his arm's lifted up and he's, he's blocked him. I don't think he, he deliberately got out of his way to foul him on purpose. I just think he, he's got himself in a, in a bad position and he's had a moment of panic. But either way, it's

• 38:26Speaker 00

  very bad defending, very bad defending. I don't think you can say, well, he deliberately did that because 99 times out of 100, you, you, there's blocks and pulls and pushes and shoves in the penalty box at, at corners anyway. So, but, you know, the big, everyone's saying, well, he's let Michael Carrick down. He should, people even talking about getting him out of the club. Now, you know, young footballers make mistakes. We all do. We've all done it. He's, he's, he's had a howler there. But, and I think there's a, for me, there's a slight overreaction. Yes, I think he completely fucked up and he knows that. But was there anything beyond it? Anything deliberate? Intentional? I don't think so.

• 39:11Speaker 04

  If it was a youngster, you'd perhaps understand more. But he's, he's a World Cup winner. He's got incredible experience. He knows the pressure the club are under and the manager's under.

• 39:19Speaker 00

  All footballers are youngsters.

• 39:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 39:21Speaker 00

  Compared with us.

• 39:23Speaker 04

  Very true. But no, it's like, it was a moment of madness and cost the manager.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  It wasn't, that's exactly what I think it was. It was just a moment of, he just lost control slightly. But, you know, did he do it deliberately to fuck Michael Carrick over? Of course not.

• 39:38Speaker 05

  Yeah, but I, I do agree with Al in terms of, you're an experienced World Cup winner. He shouldn't even really be in that position. He should be the one organising, shouldn't he? So I, I get it from the football point of view. And when you're going through a difficult time, you want your big characters to step up, don't you?

• 39:56Speaker 00

  Yeah, no, I agree, totally agree.

• 39:58Speaker 05

  And he didn't, and he didn't step up. So I understand the frustration of Man United fans because you're going through this little spell and you're thinking, yes, you've got someone who's got so much heart and he, he, what they call him, the butcher, don't they? Because he's just, when he, when, when he's, when he's on it, he's really on it. But, but he just, yeah, it was mistimed, wasn't it? Ill-discipline at, at, at the moment in terms of his performances. But I agree with you, Gaz. I don't, he sort of missed his man. He didn't mean to do it. He'd once switched on and he's let his team down, which builds more pressure on, on Carrick essentially.

• 40:38Speaker 04

  I'm there, I'm doing the game tomorrow night, Man United, Roma. Co-commentator.

• 40:42Speaker 05

  Is that, is that, is that United, is it?

• 40:44Speaker 04

  Well, it better be because I haven't booked my flight to Rome. So it better be at Man United.

• 40:48Speaker 00

  Alan, Alan. Oh, Man United in a relegation battle.

• 40:53Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 40:54Speaker 05

  Come on, Alan, stop your nonsense.

• 40:58Speaker 04

  They're fourth bottom. How can you not say that?

• 41:01Speaker 05

  Let me get the table up because I'm sick to death.

• 41:03Speaker 04

  You're getting all excited because you've seen a good 45 minutes, you've seen a good 45 minutes and you think, oh, here we go.

• 41:08Speaker 05

  You're reactionary. Look, it's the same with Coventry. What is Coventry all? Coventry, the Dow, the Dow. After two games, look at Coventry now.

• 41:17Speaker 04

  Coventry ahead of Man United.

• 41:19Speaker 00

  Mike, you've just accused Alan of being reactionary. You just left two Arsenal defenders out of your fantasy team. I mean, you can't get any more reactionary than that.

• 41:28Speaker 04

  I'm reactionary. I'm reacting to nine games that I've witnessed this season and saying, yeah, they are. They've been that bad.

• 41:37Speaker 05

  Okay. No, what, what I would say, and my point was, look, there might be flirt, when I say, there could be five points from 10th all the way down to 17th at the end of the season. You, you know that. It, it could be tight. But United have got seven points. In, all the way up until 10th, it's 11 points. There's only four points in it. So that's why I don't believe they're in a relegation battle. I, they've got enough quality.

• 42:03Speaker 00

  How many points off the bottom?

• 42:04Speaker 05

  Well, the, the two points off the bottom. Hey, you always look up, Gaz. You always look up.

• 42:11Speaker 00

  Yeah, always look up. Yeah, that's, that's a very good point. You're half empty, you're half full. What about Chelsea? I'm really impressed with Estevao. He's been patient. He's had to wait for his opportunity this season. And he's certainly given Xabi Alonso a nice problem. How does he play? He's got a lot of talent in forward positions. Obviously, he's sort of persisting with a false nine at present rather than, I mean, I know he played in midweek in the Carabao, but rather than play well back. But, you know, they came back and they were much better in the second half. Brilliant goal from Rodgers as well.

• 42:46Speaker 04

  He was brilliant, Estevao. He was absolutely, I thought he was outstanding. Yeah. And he has. I mean, when Pedro's back in, it's, he's got, he's got some job in terms of trying to get ahead of, of those three. And where does he play him? But talent wise, ability wise, he's brilliant, isn't he? God, he's so exciting with the ball.

• 43:03Speaker 05

  Football's such a strange thing, isn't it? Because if Man United take them chances, two or three in the first half, then we're talking about something completely different. But they're, they're stuck in there and then they've got the quality to hurt you. When Cole Palmer's at it, when Rodgers is at it, when Estevao's at it, it's, yeah, they're, they're always going to score goals. I think for Chelsea now, even though they've got a clean sheet, Man United have got a man sent off, they, they need to be more stable at the back. They look a little bit too easy still to, to, to play against. That's my one. Because again, talking about reactionary over there, Alan, look, they're fighting for the league. Chelsea, oh, they are challengers for the league, is what he said after pod

• 43:43Speaker 05

  number three of the season. And now, look, they can't defend. Come on, just have a little bit of balance, guys. Don't go too early. He's all I'm saying.

• 43:53Speaker 04

  Here's a question. What about the standard of the league this year? I mean, last year I thought was pretty poor. What about it this year?

• 43:59Speaker 05

  I thought it started very well. But I just, I, I, I'm not, I'm not, some, some games, I'm not sure. I, I think it's so tactical now, where at times it become, become very boring. But for me as a defender, watching Arsenal, I absolutely love it because I'm looking at their positions and the, the spaces and all that sort of stuff, the art of defending. But some games can be quite boring.

• 44:26Speaker 00

  Did you see the comments? Was it, who was it? Was it Roberto Baggio? Anyone see those comments?

• 44:32Speaker 05

  No, I didn't see these comments. What did he say?

• 44:34Speaker 00

  He might have said it a while ago, but it got regurgitated and I saw it on social media. But he said, "Modern football is increasingly dominated by the coaches, their narcissism, their tendency to put themselves above the team and their players. The players seem to be controlled by a remote. Every youngster has to move like a robot. Football is imagination, not geometry."

• 44:56Speaker 04

  I think, I'll go back to my thing in the Premier League. Yeah, I don't think it's been a great season in terms of ability wise. There's a lot of tactics and defensively, as we said about Arsenal, that's a skill in itself. But I don't think, you just said it before there, Micah, Chelsea in the position they're in, I don't think a great, Liverpool, I don't think a great. City have lost two on the spin. I mean, Brighton, obviously are the standout, Brighton and Brentford and Bournemouth. And they're having fabulous starts to the season and doing great work again. But I don't know, I'm not convinced it's a great season yet. Are you?

• 45:30Speaker 00

  I think it's, I think it's, we're not seeing quite as many teams play very defensively and sitting back. I mean, obviously sometimes you have to, and you play a low block, you hit them counter attack. I think we've seen slightly less of that. Lot more teams playing with a, trying to play with a high energy and high press. But yeah, I think it's a mixed bag. And don't forget, we're coming off the back of a World Cup. There's a lot of players to find in their way after, after playing deep into the summer. So I think there's been some very good games. I think football's always like this. You have little patches where it's not that good. And then, you know, I remember in my day, you know,

• 46:12Speaker 00

  when it was probably the most defensive time football, because, you know, Italian football, that was the way and everyone was copying that sort of thing, like they do with the Spanish now. But, and it was all a little bit defensive back then. But it just goes in ebbs and flows. And you get some good games, you know. I've quite enjoyed a lot of games this season. I think, I don't know whether the statistics show that there've been more goals or fewer goals. But I think, you mentioned there, Brighton, they have been the revelation at the start of this season. And, and yes, they're third in the league and people, you know, we've often seen teams, I think, make really good progress

• 46:54Speaker 00

  at the start of the season and then it dwindles a little bit. But looking at Brighton, I always look at the goal difference under those circumstances. But Brighton's goal difference is way better than anyone else's. They've kept more clean sheets than, than anybody else. And you look at those, those two stats together, and that shows you that, hmm, this might be a team that can maintain their excellent start to the season. How far they can go, I don't know. But I think they can challenge realistically for a Champions League spot.

• 47:29Speaker 04

  When you consider what potentially could happen to Man City, if they're hanging around there in and around there long enough, then you just, you just never know, do you? But there's no doubt they have been some of the football that they're playing. They've beaten Arsenal convincingly. You've got a great result on, on Saturday against, against City again. And it was deserved, by the way, because I know the keeper was, was brilliant for Bergen. But they could have went 2-0 up just after half time, missed a big chance. So it wasn't, there was no fluke there for Brighton. They were outstanding, yeah.

• 47:58Speaker 05

  Yeah, City, I mean, like you said, they had, City had chances, didn't they? Bergen was, they had a lot of chances. But yeah, I mean, City do what City do, essentially control a lot of the game. But when they don't score, when the game's open, they just concede a lot of opportunities, don't they? And it must be hard. I was trying to think about this. And under Pep, played a certain way. And I'm constantly banging the drum saying, why have they left themselves so exposed? It's the same with Maresca. But, but maybe when he's just on the ball so much, he's just more liable to that kind of, of course, that's normal. But I just thought that would have been so. And we talked about Rodri, Bojardi

• 48:42Speaker 05

  played, didn't he? Anderson didn't have one of his best games the other day. There was times in the games where he pressed too, or he dropped a little bit too deep. But you're going to get them games. And Brighton, you have to give credit to Brighton. They were just a very good side and took the opportunity when it came.

• 49:00Speaker 00

  I think the one thing I'd say about, from my experience of watching Maresca's career, is that he's very much of a tinker man. And it's worked for him, you have to say, generally. It certainly worked for him at Leicester. But he did, you know, he was always shuffling and juggling. And, and he did the same at Chelsea quite a lot. And now he's doing the same for Manchester City. Can that work against them? Or will it prove to be a strength?

• 49:32Speaker 04

  He left Gueye out as well, didn't he?

• 49:34Speaker 05

  Yeah, it was Kuseloff and Diaz.

• 49:36Speaker 00

  Yeah, he said very much, he does. I mean, obviously they're fighting on, on many fronts. So you have to rotate to a degree. But, you know, he said it, didn't he, after the, I think it was after a Champions League game, he intimated that he's going to leave a few players out, which he did in the, in the subsequent game. So he does like to tinker a lot. Whether that's something that he feels like he needs to keep everybody happy, I don't know. But will that go against him or not?

• 50:06Speaker 05

  I, I think for this game though, if you're thinking, how do Brighton play? The high energy, the really good. If you go back to the PSG game where Shirkie played, and essentially, you could see they was playing with a man less off, off the ball. So I understand at times why he wouldn't play Shirkie. But then Foden, I, I thought Foden would have been given that opportunity, you know, especially at home. On, on, at home, you're supposed to be on the front foot, you're thinking Shirkie or a Foden. Yes, he was on the front foot in terms of what with wingers and Jai and Doku. But they missed someone sort of

• 50:45Speaker 05

  creating that little bit of a, a moment or a little bit of genius or something. And I've just thought, without Foden or Shirkie playing in that game, that they lacked a bit of quality, sort of between the lines.

• 51:01Speaker 00

  I'm not sure that juggling your team constantly really works. From my experience of watching a lot of football over many decades, the teams that do the best, the ones where by and large, you pretty much know the starting lineup and the best, best team. Now, obviously in these days, and the squad depth is much bigger. But I just think, you know, stop starting, playing people in different positions constantly. I mean, obviously you get some ever presence like Erling, that will always play if he's fit. But, but they don't seem to have many of those. They've got a lot of, and I just think whether the tinkering

• 51:42Speaker 00

  works or not, I, we'll, we'll see. We'll see over the course of the season. But from my experience, the teams that are, you know, the teams that are really successful, you by and large know the, the basic spine at least.

• 51:57Speaker 04

  Even from your own, your own personal point, you'd want to play as much as possible. You'd hate to be playing one week and left out the next. And then blitz, yeah, from, from, from that point, you'd be no.

• 52:07Speaker 00

  Before we go, a little look down at the bottom of the table.

• 52:10Speaker 05

  Oh, we're not going just yet.

• 52:11Speaker 00

  Why, you went quiet?

• 52:12Speaker 05

  Jackson, let's talk about Villa, baby. Another goal for Nicholas Jackson.

• 52:19Speaker 04

  It was a good goal as well, eh? What a finish. What a finish.

• 52:23Speaker 05

  Interesting, interesting, Al. Have you, you know, we had our conversation.

• 52:28Speaker 00

  Micah, are you his agent?

• 52:30Speaker 05

  Well, I can't believe it's me. I just, you know what, it's just nice, it's nice to call something when everyone's giving it a bit of a stick, oh, he's not that good. Is this, I was like, no, I've seen it. If he could just start scoring, which in fairness, you both said, I, my point was more around his overall game. And he did need to score more goals. But now he is scoring more goals, which is good to see.

• 52:54Speaker 00

  No, it is. I mean, he's got a lot of ability. We've talked about him many times this season on the pod. And mainly because you brought him up every time he scored a goal.

• 53:05Speaker 05

  Yes. Every time he scores, I'm going to bring him up every single time. So get it in the script. H, Max, get it in the script.

• 53:12Speaker 00

  There's one thing we talked about overall this season, but it's not easy at present to go look at the bottom of the table. And there's, because normally after we get close to 10 games in the season, there's normally a couple of teams that have hardly got any points whatsoever. But that's not really happening. Even Coventry, they've won, what, three of the last four league games. They're having a really good run.

• 53:34Speaker 05

  What did I say? Calm, calm. Hey, come on, Frank. I'm with you. I'm telling you, everyone was saying he was going to go down. The evidence from last season told me that he was going to stay up. And now it looks, it looks a lot better. I'm not going big saying he's going to step. But yes, it looks a lot more convincing. So come on, Frank.

• 53:54Speaker 00

  Well, none of the bottom three include any of the promoted clubs, which is, says something. The bottom three, Crystal Palace, Forest and Sunderland. Palace and Sunderland obviously playing in Europe. And I think they've found that difficult. Sunderland fans as boisterous this season on you, Al?

• 54:17Speaker 05

  Have Sunderland fans gone too early? We was all, tail between our legs when we say they're not going to go down this season. Come on, Sunderland, we want you to stay up, but you've got to do a lot better. Because you lot, you lot put us on blast in the season. You had the little last, a little laugh last season. You put all on your social media and all that sort of stuff. And we apologised. And we backed you to stay up. So we need a little bit more from you, Sunderland.

• 54:40Speaker 00

  Yeah. I think the one that's perhaps surprising is Forest down there at the moment. I think with, with Glasner's gone there. And he was, he did one of his very odd press conferences, didn't he? Talking about his position as well, again there. So.

• 55:01Speaker 04

  Did you see the chances they missed, Forest? Some of the chances. Oh, goodness me. Yeah. Massive problem for them.

• 55:08Speaker 00

  Yeah, Delap's not really been the answer so far. A bit like he was at, same at Chelsea as well. So they need to improve there. And we all know the owner hasn't got a lot of patience with coaches. Crystal Palace, we predicted it might be a difficult season for them as well. But in the last 20 years, no club sitting on as many points as Hull and Ipswich have at this stage of a Premier League season has gone on to be relegated. So we could actually see all three promoted sides stay up.

• 55:39Speaker 05

  Ooh, interesting, yeah. Still early days though, isn't it? Still early days. Leeds, Leeds are getting sucked in 11. We need to, they've had a lot of draws of Leeds. I need a couple more wins from Leeds, to be honest.

• 55:52Speaker 00

  It's only ever happened four times in the history of the Premier League that all three promoted teams have stayed up.

• 55:57Speaker 04

  Well, there's a good chance of it then, this year, isn't there? The way they've gone, started.

• 56:01Speaker 00

  Yeah, absolutely. Let's call it a day there because I've got a leaf blower right outside my front door by the sounds of it. And we know what we think of leaf blowers.

• 56:11Speaker 00

  That's it for this episode of the Rest is Football. Goodbye from me.

• 56:15Speaker 05

  Goodbye from me.

• 56:16Speaker 04

  Goodbye from me. Have a great week.

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