What’s The Problem At Manchester United?

Following the worst start to a Premier League season in their history, is Michael Carrick the right man to turn Manchester United around? Do United still belong among football’s elite, or has the club lost its status as one of the game’s true giants? And are the Glazers solely to blame for the decline of one of British sport’s greatest dynasties? Gary is joined by Laurie Whitwell, The Athletic’s Manchester United correspondent and co-host of the Talk of the Devils podcast, to dissect the problems plaguing Old Trafford. From ownership, management and recruitment they explore why Manchester United have struggled to recapture their former glory since Ferguson’s departure, and what it will take to restore the club to the top of English and European football. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 1:52Speaker 00

  Welcome to The Rest Is Football with me, Gary Lineker. Today we're taking a deep dive into Manchester United, another lackluster start to the season. Fans booing the team off, continued unrest with Sir Jim Ratcliffe, the Glazers still in the background and the optimism that Michael Carrick brought to Old Trafford last season feels like it's disappeared already. Joining me to discuss all this and more is the Manchester United writer for The Athletic and co-host of the Talk of the Devils podcast, Laurie Whitwell. That saying that the hope that kills you was generated yet again. It's been a fairly dismal start to the campaign. Why the sudden difference do you feel to last season?

• 2:35Speaker 04

  I think it could be a reverting to the mean really because when Carrick came in, you know, I don't think anybody expected the kind of impact that he had. It was very much an emergency option in light of Ruben Amorim being sacked. So obviously Carrick massively overachieved, got United to third, was the best performing team in that period. So I think that was always a bit of a false situation for United to be in. We have pre-season, the transfers are made and actually only really he's been able to use Yuri Telemans in terms of new signings. Okay, Andrew Santos has been there, but he's been on the bench unused last three games. So anyway, in terms of like freshening up the squad from last season, it hasn't had a huge turnaround. And also you've lost Benjamin Sesko to injury again.

• 3:19Speaker 04

  So yeah, it's been a difficult way for Carrick to start this season in terms of the selections that he's had available. Ahmad being injured, another one perhaps. But certainly there's some concerns around United's energy and perhaps conditioning, which feels like it's a theme so far at the start of this season. And yeah, I mean, it's certainly not acceptable, is it, for United to have six points from six games so far, bottom half of the table. I think it's the worst start in 40 years in the Premier League. And obviously, you know, Carrick's under perhaps more scrutiny than a normal manager in this situation would be because of his previous CV not necessarily being the standard that you would perhaps expect of a Manchester United manager.

• 3:56Speaker 00

  I've watched Manchester United for a very long time and I always thought to myself that the fans by and large have been remarkably patient over the last decade or so. Yes, they've had the complaints against the ownership, we've seen that. But in terms of on the field, they've not really been hard on their own team. They're not generally booed. Have you noticed a bit of a change and a bit more lack of patience?

• 4:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, I was at Old Trafford on Saturday for the Tottenham game and that did strike me as something unusual. I mean, the way United played to start with was really bad. So I can understand fans being frustrated and there was a particular moment, I sort of wrote about this in my piece actually for The Athletic, but Senna Lomond took a long kick and it just drifted out of play and that provoked boos from the crowd. 23 minutes in, it was pretty soon. It was from the fact that he'd also kicked long, I think previously, and he'd kind of gone short very early on and not given Solanke that chance that he probably should have scored. So you could see some nervousness amongst the defence and that then permeated into the stands. But yeah, for United to act, fans to act so acutely, sharply, so soon was unusual. Booze at half time, booze at full time. Why is that?

• 5:07Speaker 04

  You know, is that because, you know, social media kind of reactions and kind of that agitation perhaps being a natural part of people's DNA, so to speak, when they go into games? Is it more specific to United and the fact that they've had real issues with ticketing since Sir Jim Ratcliffe's come in in terms of raising the prices, in terms of season ticket holders being kind of scrutinised for their practices and, you know, feeling like they're at odds with the club? Or is it just generally a kind of feeling around the club that here we are again, you know, since the Glazers have taken over, it's been, obviously there's been a period of success whilst Sir Alex Ferguson was in charge, but since he's retired, it's been a kind of cycle of sub hope, as you touched on at the start of this show, and then ultimately disappointment. And so that's the agitation that you get.

• 5:51Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think maybe there's a change in demographic in the crowd as well, you know, in terms of season ticket holders. Certainly they've changed where people sit, you know. So for example, behind the dugout now, it used to be people that have been there for decades really, and they've changed that because they've realised that there's value to be had in those tickets and that's more people that would come for the day trips really. So I don't know exactly where it starts. Certainly there's a section of United fans in the Stretford End that have tried to generate an atmosphere, the Red Army, and they still do that. They bring flags to the ground, that they try and get the chants going. But I think when the football on the pitch doesn't necessarily meet those expectations, then there's people that will naturally voice their displeasure.

• 6:28Speaker 00

  I think it's worth pointing out as well that we're recording this on Monday before United visit Madrid and play Atletico. So if United won 4-0.

• 6:39Speaker 04

  And there's a big crowd over here, three and a half thousand, I think, fans are travelling over. So yeah, it's good away actually.

• 6:43Speaker 00

  One thing you do know is that Manchester United will continue to have that huge support that they have. I mean, it is still, it's still a monster of a football club, but how long can it go on for, do you think Laurie, before people start to go, well, is Manchester United still a giant of a football club?

• 7:01Speaker 04

  I suppose what marks out a club as being that kind of scale, I mean, you look at the crowd every week, it's a sell-out at Old Trafford, you know, that's 75,000 fans each week, that feels big to me and I think that'll sustain. Now clearly as we go along, you know, that kind of global success people want to tap into because of, you know, trophies and silverware and United haven't had the biggest prizes since Sir Alex Ferguson left. So, you know, will, will you see a new generation of fans going for different clubs? And I think certainly we've seen that, I mean, locally you see sort of other teams supported, but I think because they've got that history, that sustained success in the 90s and the 2000s when football blew up, that that will incubate them from a lot of

• 7:42Speaker 04

  this issue around, I mean, look at, Amazon have paid a load of money to, you know, follow them for a documentary, I think it's the biggest they've paid. That'll be interesting, that that sort of seems like a mark of a, a club that is, even if they don't succeed, there's some interest there, right? It's kind of this weird world that we live in now where football still generates eyeballs if there's, you know, not glittering success, but clearly everybody associated with the club would want United to be back challenging for the title and the Champions League. And I don't think it's something they can take for granted.

• 8:10Speaker 00

  Do you think, I mean, what they've done obviously over the past few years now is that they've brought in a new manager, it's not worked, they've got rid of him, he's kind of always to blame. Is that now looking like the case with Michael Carrick already?

• 8:27Speaker 04

  I think we're too early for that personally. I haven't sensed anything of that ilk. I did a piece before the international break that said that wasn't on the agenda at all. Now, you know, maybe there are conversations that go on.

• 8:40Speaker 00

  Well, they said the same about Amorim, didn't they? I remember Ratcliffe saying, no, he's our man and three months later he was gone.

• 8:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, that was such a weird one though, because basically he should have really been sacked because of the results and ultimately he was sacked because he had a big falling out with the hierarchy, you know, particularly a big bust up with Jason Wilcox, the director of football. They, they were trying really to get him to change the formation when they'd hired him, knowing that that was the formation. I mean, they will probably say that he kind of given indication in the interview process that he would be adaptable, but clearly he felt that was a line in the sand and, you know, he voiced those sort of feelings very clearly, didn't he? It was coded but not too coded. So, and I don't think Carrick's that kind of personality, well, he isn't, you know, we can see that from the press conferences that he gives, although he is, I think, showing himself a little bit more in these press conferences, certainly after the Spurs game,

• 9:31Speaker 04

  certainly before the match as well. I think he's sort of giving his opinion more freely and kind of showing that pedigree that he had as a player, because you can't be a player at Man United for the time that he was and not have something about you, not have substance.

• 9:44Speaker 00

  Do you get a flavour Laurie of what the players feel about Michael Carrick? You know, behind the scenes, the whispers, et cetera. Has he got the confidence of the players still, do you feel?

• 9:56Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think so. I think that they respect him for the intelligence that he has and the kind of way that he's trying to go about it. Now, have there been some mistakes? Clearly, they must have been right for United to get to this point. They should be doing better than this, right? Well, I think the squad was overachieving last season. It shouldn't be as bad as this this season. And yeah, I think that's something that they need to work through. But I sense that they all, there's no turning against him. You know, I don't think, you know, I think certainly previous managers, you've had elements of that. Now, whether that then changes, results go on, and they wonder whether he's the right guy. Obviously, I guess time will tell. But for the time being, right now, I certainly think the players respect him and actually see a side of him that we don't see. I certainly think he can, you know, give players

• 10:40Speaker 04

  a rollicking when required. So he just doesn't want to do that publicly because he feels like he should protect that kind of inner sanctum.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  Well, I would agree with him on that. I think there's one thing that turned players off coaches and managers. And I think that happened to Amorim in a way.

• 10:53Speaker 04

  Yeah, yeah.

• 10:54Speaker 00

  We talked about it actually on the main podcast that went out on Monday. I mean, it's fairly obvious what's wrong with United at the moment in midfield. They've got Yuri Telemans, watched him for years at Leicester, wonderfully gifted, technical footballer with a great brain and a really good pro. But he's not going to bomb around the pitch. And Kobe Mayno is beautiful on the ball and gifted, but he's not hugely energetic. You've got Bruno that kind of plays where he wants to play all over the place, magnificent footballer though he is, he's not going to add too much in midfield defensively. So it seems to me that they're always outnumbered and they've not got players that obviously get around the pitch.

• 11:35Speaker 00

  So for me, I look at United and I think, well, they've got some decent players up front. I know they've got one or two injury problems. By and large, they've got a bit of experience at the back. They've made a few mistakes. I think the goalkeeper last season, even though he's been getting a little bit of stick, did really well. So I don't think there's a lot wrong. But that fix in the midfield was the same problem really that Ruben Amorim had in a slightly different way. He was a little bit more stubborn in it. So I think it's fixable.

• 12:05Speaker 04

  Yeah, I certainly think so. I mean, Belieber, I think, made a real impact against Tottenham. I mean, maybe I'm getting carried away.

• 12:11Speaker 00

  First 15 minutes, he did. They were desperate for something, the crowd as well, weren't they?

• 12:15Speaker 04

  Yeah. Well, he looks bigger than I thought as well. He's like sort of six foot looks to me. So I think that's an element that United, you know, they've lost Casemiro, who was a huge set piece threat. So replacing him, they obviously haven't really done that. Maybe Belieber can add that to his game. But yeah, I mean, Telemans, United's approach in the window was so, you know, based on the financial picture as well, that you can't ignore, you can't separate it. So Telemans was a £35 million release clause. United did look at him under Erik Ten Hag, even when he went to Leicester in the first place, you know, he'd been on loan and then he went in the summer. Then when he left on a free, even the summer before, when he had a year left on his contract before he went to Villa. And United never actually went for it. So there was different reasons why they didn't.

• 12:57Speaker 04

  And now they've gone for him because really, he is a quality player for sure and certainly improves the squad. But he's not the player that's going to generate them going on to then push for the title. As you know, you kind of felt like maybe they could have done if they had, you know, that kind of financial latitude, having finished third. So, you know, they miss out on Sandro Tonali, who plays against United on Saturday. He gets about the pitch brilliantly. And I'm not saying he's a perfect footballer, but obviously Spurs pay £100 million for him. So it's different ways that United are now approaching the transfer market. And okay, they pushed the boat out a little bit for Belieber. They waited a year really to get him, got him for a knockdown fee from what they would have done the summer previous. So hopefully that one really does fit the bill for, yeah, getting out of the pitch. His passing actually against Tottenham, I thought was really good. So I wonder how

• 13:42Speaker 04

  that's going to, you know, shake things up. Obviously, there was an order that they did it in as well. You know, they kind of, they went for Telemans and Santos first, then brought Belieber in later in the window when he's picked up this ankle injury. You know, if they'd done it the other way around, maybe that would have been a different complexion as well to the squad. I agree with you. They've obviously got some quality there. I do think they've been exposed by not getting a striker to back up Ben Yedder and Cesc. They obviously knew that was an issue over the preseason because they were resting him. It's, you know, there's been a recurrence of sorts now. We don't know how long he's going to be out for. And Bumo's good up top, but I just think you need a proper sort of striker as an alternative to Cesc. Because I think even Bruno Fernandes on Saturday was kind of going up top really. And it was Zirksey that was the number 10. So clearly, that's not an

• 14:25Speaker 04

  ideal situation to have. And so, yeah, I wonder if they'll address that in January.

• 14:29Speaker 00

  Has what's going on down the road with the other Manchester club kind of deflected it a little bit, taken the pressure, the heat off a fraction?

• 14:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, I think it has. I mean, when you think about what the international break felt like when United were 1-0 down to Fulham, the final game before, ultimately, they got an equalizer, Konya. I think they probably deserved it in that game. But, you know, still, there were sort of questions around Carrick and what's happening at United. And then for City, the case to kind of have its verdict come out during the international break and all eyes beyond that. And then United can kind of say, I mean, even Carrick was asked about it and Carrick, I thought was quite interesting on that, saying you can't take those moments back, you know, the titles that we could have won, you know, basically are done now. So that's, it allowed him to kind of speak on those terms. Whereas perhaps if that hadn't have happened, it would have all been, what are you feeling about your job? Have you had conversation with the hierarchy? I mean, he was a little

• 15:21Speaker 04

  bit asked about that. But it certainly has shifted the narrative. And I mean, it was a long, the longest international break we've ever had. And, you know, for us as journalists, it was, it was great to kind of get into all the weeds of the issues, really fascinating stuff. But I think for United, it did, it did sort of shift the perspective and probably grateful for that.

• 15:40Speaker 00

  Do you think it kind of epitomises what's going on at Manchester United, that they're struggling to keep even their young talent? Obviously, the story of J.J. Gabriel was pretty remarkable. You could never have thought of that happening kind of a decade or so ago.

• 15:58Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a funny one, the J.J. Gabriel one, because he's such a special talent. So there's definitely two sides. United will say that they did all they could to, you know, keep him at the club and make him feel wanted and kind of give him a special treatment. And certainly, he's a 15-year-old. So, well, he's now 16 actually, but at the time, you know, going on preseason tour and kind of being around the first team picture. But if, you know, his perspective, people around him's perspective, if he is this kind of special talent, that he's going to be a global star, could more have been done. There's certainly, I think, an opportunity in preseason for him to feature more, or in certain ways that were perhaps more of a platform for him. And then, yeah, you come to the kind of Champions League and the opportunity to play in that. And that wasn't available to them ultimately

• 16:42Speaker 04

  because of the way the regulations work. But they could have made it so. So anyway, yeah, we've got to this point now where we feel that he could leave the club in the immediate term because he's now turned 16. If he's got this EU passport, as we believe he has, then he could go somewhere abroad because he's been home.

• 16:58Speaker 00

  We could all do with one of those.

• 16:59Speaker 04

  Yeah. What do you reckon? I was going through passport security yesterday on the way to Madrid and I was thinking, look at those.

• 17:05Speaker 00

  I know. It's so annoying, isn't it?

• 17:07Speaker 04

  On the quick queue through.

• 17:10Speaker 04

  It was not that, to be fair. But yeah, so I think it does show that United, they've certainly made aggressive moves in the market, in the academy side, to be fair to them. You know, they've signed a couple of lads from City, a lad from Liverpool as well. But yeah, J.J. Gabriel's, I think, a real delicate one for them. And it'd be fascinating to see how he does in his career from now on. Because, you know, you're looking at Real Madrid being, you know, interested in him. I think that's a serious prospect. So yeah, what's he going to do in his career from now? I think he's going to be really interesting.

• 17:37Speaker 00

  Totally agree. Let's take a little break there. And when we come back, I want to discuss the finances of Manchester United.

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• 19:09Speaker 00

  Welcome back to The Rest Is Football with me Gary Lineker and Laurie Whitwell. I'm a super expert on Manchester United podcast, athletic correspondent. Before we get on to the finances, just as a journalist that covers a football club, and I think sometimes you can be so close to it that you can get, you probably get some criticism because fans will always see one way or the other. But you want the team to do well, don't you?

• 19:36Speaker 04

  Yes, I do. Yeah.

• 19:38Speaker 00

  It's in everyone's best interest when the team does, the last thing you want to be is super critical. Yeah. But sometimes you have to be.

• 19:45Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, I grew up a fan, you know, I was in the Nou Camp in 99. So I've got that kind of history of affection for the club. And then I became a journalist and you have that objectivity and you try and have that distance and scrutiny. So

• 19:58Speaker 00

  Sometimes has that been difficult, having been a fan of the club and a journalist that has to do a difficult job at times?

• 20:05Speaker 04

  You're right. We definitely get criticised by people for, you know, perhaps you get criticised both ways really for not being hard enough or then not supporting the club in the way that some people think. But listen, that's, that's fair enough. That's part of the job. I come to it as a, you know, I try and be a critical friend, shall we say. So if you want the club to do well, because, you know, from a business perspective, it's funny to me that, you know, our podcast, we do way better, we get way better views when United have won and people are happy about it than we do when it's, when it's critical really. But at the same time, I think football now is such a big business and it's fair to scrutinise, it's fair to ask questions that are difficult of the club. And so we try and do that and then, you know, report it fairly, in my view. And it has its grown arms and legs. When you say super expert there, like, that's very, very kind of you. But, you know,

• 20:50Speaker 04

  there's now court cases, there's financial situations to delve into, there's New York Stock Exchange, there's, you know, all sorts, there's employment law, you know, there's so many angles now, it's not just about analysing a football match and, and, you know, finding out stories. It's a broad breadth of issues to get into and trying to understand. So yeah, it's a difficult job. But I, yeah, I come down to it, I'd much rather see United win the title than not.

• 21:15Speaker 00

  You talked about finances there. The gross financial debt is what, 728 million I've got down here, 52 million up year on year. What's, what's driving that increase? I mean, they've tried to make so many cuts and, which hasn't gone down particularly well either.

• 21:33Speaker 04

  Yeah, I mean, the cuts, I think probably were necessary when Ratcliffe came in.

• 21:38Speaker 00

  All of them? Some of them seemed a bit ridiculous.

• 21:41Speaker 04

  Yes. And there was two rounds of it. And they said there was only going to be one round. So that was a, an issue for them straight away, where you're kind of getting a bit of distrust, I suppose, amongst some of the staff. They have, they've come in with a, well, Ratcliffe has certainly felt that what has happened before is not good. And so we're going to change everything. And now I think, you know, that neglects that actually some of the stuff that was going on was, was fine, was good, you know, in terms of some of the ways that United were generating money. And it's interesting now to see, are they going to be able to sustain that level of, you know, say, commercial revenue that they had previously. They've obviously signed a new training kit sponsor, Betway. But they had a year out where they didn't have a training kit sponsor. So I could understand where they were coming from with that. But there was certainly way, the way they went about it caused a lot of hurt for people.

• 22:25Speaker 00

  A training kit sponsor. I mean, where's the game going?

• 22:30Speaker 04

  Chertley sponsors, Gary. What else have we got?

• 22:33Speaker 00

  Have the Glazers performed a master plan of bringing in someone that is even more unlikable than perhaps they were as running the football club? So basically, they've, they've got a load of money, extra money in, and they've got someone now that they, that takes all the stick.

• 22:49Speaker 04

  Well, yeah, there's a contradiction at the heart of the Glazers for me, because on one level, you're always told, you know, they weren't affected by the fan sentiment, they weren't affected by the protests, certainly on the ground. I think the sponsor protest did have a real impact when, when people were kind of targeting them. But then also, I think you're absolutely right to say that, you know, there's this idea that now Ratcliffe is the kind of lightning rod for fan unrest. And that's sort of been a productive thing for them. I think you've got, you've got Joel and Avram who are the two that are most involved, that kind of, you know, are engaged, shall we say. Then you've got the other four siblings and their family. And I think they're probably the ones that are like, we don't want to be associated with this negativity. So you've kind of got two different perspectives, I suppose. And so that's why, yeah, I mean, the deal that they did, you know, they, they managed

• 23:34Speaker 04

  to keep control of the club, they've still got the majority shares, they've allowed Ratcliffe to take these sporting decisions, but also these wider club decisions actually. And they've still got an exit plan if they want really. So, so in February 2027, they can sell the club for whatever they like, if they find a buyer to buy all the shares and they can drag Ratcliffe along if he doesn't agree to it. Before that point, there's a $33 per share limit that they had to achieve because that's what Ratcliffe paid. And, you know, the Qatari bid led by Sheikh Jassim was about $30 per share. And anyway, so they've managed to pull off this, this deal that's, yeah, quite remarkable really. But it does lead to this kind of slightly strange relationship, I suppose, because you've got Ratcliffe who has to kind of say, well, what went before was bad and it was

• 24:18Speaker 04

  badly managed. And that's why we're cleaning it up now. But that's obviously what the Glazers oversaw. But ultimately, I think they, they are responsible for the bleak financial picture because they loaded the club that was previously debt free with all this debt that they're having to finance. And at one stage beyond that point, it was sort of manageable because it was, you know, 20 million a year and United were winning things and they were, they were getting loads of money from match day revenue and sponsorships, et cetera. But obviously the pandemic hit, that hit the cash, they were less successful, they were spending money to try and keep up with Man City, shall we say, certainly on recruitment. It was bad recruitment. And so it's kind of brought this spiral where they had to go to market to try and find either a full buyer or ultimately what the founder Ratcliffe,

• 25:00Speaker 04

  who, you know, has put 300 million dollars of his own money into the club. But that was part of the deal. And now here we are with this relationship that, that feels really interesting to observe where it's going to go next.

• 25:11Speaker 00

  Yeah. The club's lost money for seven consecutive years, nearly 450 million since 2019. How long can they sustain this loss making?

• 25:20Speaker 04

  They've turned it around, this latest financial results to an operating profit. But then, once you factor everything in, yeah, it's another loss. And that's partly to do with the interest on the debt that the Glazers put on the club. So it's 35, 36 million pounds a year. It's going to go up by 10 million because they've had to renegotiate the long term debt, one of the long term debts, which was due for repayment in 2027. That's going to up a couple of percentage points to sort of 5, 5.5%, something like that. So where they're going to get that money from, they, they basically have to keep performing well, you know, so back in the Champions League. So that's where you give Michael Carrick massive credit, not only in the season for the revenue for, for the broadcast from

• 26:05Speaker 04

  the Premier League by jumping the club from 15th to third, 33 million, something like that you got. But also then you're back in the Champions League. So it's 100 million pounds for the season, something like that, plus the commercial deals that you can then do off the back of it. So I would, I would always put that in with Carrick when you're kind of weighing up his position. But yeah, it needs United to keep going.

• 26:24Speaker 00

  It's six games as well. Calm down everyone, it's six games.

• 26:28Speaker 04

  Yeah, come, look at the bottom line, please. Which, which is sad really, isn't it? When you think, because it should be about results. But yeah, I think that it's a, it's a strained financial picture. It absolutely relies on United to keep being in the Champions League. And that's why they took that modest approach in the summer. You can certainly criticise that and sort of wonder, well, could they have spent money elsewhere? They've got, as well as the long term debt that you mentioned there, Gary, they've got the revolving credit facility, which is basically the company credit card, which is, they've got 400 million pound limit on, they're currently at 200 million pounds. That's basically what they use each year, each summer to make transfers. And then beyond that, you've even got money that they owe for, for transfers they've made in future years. So it all adds up to over a billion.

• 27:11Speaker 00

  They owe 360 million in transfer fees. Yeah. And 209 million of the, of that is due within, within a year.

• 27:19Speaker 04

  Yeah, pressure. So it's, it's basically, you've got to qualify for the Champions League again, go quite far in it maybe, or not, not quite, you know, maybe quarter final, something like that. You kind of need to keep getting that revenue in from the wins that you get in the competition. And that, that's why they chose not to push the boat out, I suppose, for a left back or for a striker. But they did spend 63 and a half million pounds on land acquired to, you know, build this new Old Trafford. Yeah. Now, okay, that always will hold its value, right? Like, you imagine that's going to go up if they wanted to sell it at some point in the future. I suppose you'd have to find a buyer. But as a player, might not work out and their value goes down. But equally, it was a choice that the club made, you know.

• 28:01Speaker 00

  But a stadium's never going to score you a goal.

• 28:03Speaker 04

  I say they're never going to score and will the stadium happen?

• 28:05Speaker 00

  Old Trafford has sucked a few in over the years, I would say.

• 28:08Speaker 04

  The Stretford End, to be fair, on Saturday was, back on the crowd point, they were really up for it in the second half and it felt like there was something building there. When Belieber came on, they gave him such a raucous reception, which I think was a sign of, please work, you know, we need change here, we need these legs, we've been crying out for it. But to your point, there's then even with the fans that go to the games, there's a kind of distrust around United building this new stadium because they, some of them don't feel they've been consulted properly on it and they don't want a new stadium, they want Old Trafford to be regenerated because of all those memories, because of that atmosphere that it can give you.

• 28:40Speaker 00

  Why are they going against what the fans want? I mean, I know that's, there's a bit of history in football about that, but what, why, why do you think?

• 28:47Speaker 04

  I think that Ratcliffe, this is Ratcliffe's desire for a new stadium, really. The Glazers obviously have looked at it and they've never really done anything though, have they? They've never renovated the stadium since they, they came in. So, you know, for all that they've, they might say, well, we've looked at different plans. At least Ratcliffe is trying to do something. But I think he sees it as his legacy for United to have this huge new stadium. Clearly there's some involvement with the government, they, they want the local council and government to pay for the regeneration of the local area, which, which might be fantastic, you know, certainly the plans that they've been showing.

• 29:20Speaker 00

  That's something they do in America a lot, isn't it? They get people to pay for, these billionaires manage to get people to actually put all the money in for a new stadium, the local council or the, however, whatever it is in America.

• 29:31Speaker 04

  Well, the Glazers did that with Tampa Bay Buccaneers and weirdly they're kind of celebrated in Tampa, although it was, they, they basically forced the, the local government's hand to pay for the stadium that they've got. So yeah, it's, it's a similar kind of vibe, I guess, but ultimately United still need to finance this stadium themselves or at least create a company to, to, to take on debt. I don't think they can, with the debt they've already got, I don't think they can then add more debt on to that. I think that would need to be paid off or some kind of arrangement sorted before they can then create more debt to, to build a stadium. But it just, it makes everyone feel like, you know, it, it feels like too much of a reach really, you know, when you're, you're trying to get a team on the pitch to do well, to then also add loads more money in that you need to pay off in future years. And who's going to pay for it?

• 30:14Speaker 04

  It's going to be the fans, raise ticket prices, broadcast revenue, you know, free subscriptions, et cetera. So that's why there's an unease about it from certain supporters.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  I mean, there are a few things going on. What is the thing that really frustrates Manchester United fans more than anything else, do you feel? Is it the team? Is it the ownership? I mean, the Glazers, they've been harping on about them for years, but they've never managed to shift them.

• 30:37Speaker 04

  The Glazers is number one, right? Because, you know, United, yeah, yeah. When you, when it comes down to, clearly Ratcliffe is the, the current focus of, of that. And, and the Ineos regime, you know, the different people involved, you know, but ultimately it's, it's the Glazer. So, you know, United were a debt-free club, United were winning, you know, everything at the time. We, we know the backstory, it's a very convoluted one, you know, Sir Alex Ferguson's involved.

• 31:01Speaker 00

  The interesting thing is though, I mean, if Sir Alex Ferguson came in and started like he did when he first took the job, there's no way he would have survived. So at some point, I think this is a slightly different issue, but at some point, Manchester United need to stick with someone, one of the coaches and think to themselves, hmm, maybe it's not the coach that's the problem.

• 31:21Speaker 04

  Well, this is it. And like, you know, even if you brought somebody else in now, would they, would they, how much more would they get out of this squad? Is it just to get them in Champions League? That feels like that was sort of partly the Ruben Amrin thing.

• 31:32Speaker 00

  Do you think Carrick can get this team in the Champions League, being in the Champions League at the same time? Because it's difficult, because they obviously don't get the rest that they had last season and the time to prepare for each particular game.

• 31:42Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's tough, isn't it? I mean, I, I think he can personally because he's, he's shown, they've been close in games, you know, it's, he's been bad, but they, they could have got more points. You know, he's a last minute equaliser for Everton, a worldie at Goodison, sorry, at the Hill Dickinson Stadium. New stadiums on my brain, you know, City scored a goal that just was offside, you know, and again, it was a bad performance against 10 men, but they shouldn't have won that game, it was an offside goal. So, yeah, you sort of hold it on to things and it will be interesting now that the Champions League starts to kick off in, in earnest. So they've got Madrid. Obviously we're recording this before the game, but, but Tuesday night, this coma away next week, you know, it's starting to sort of rotate really on, on the fixtures.

• 32:26Speaker 04

  But I think he can. And I think that, you know, to your point on what you want from a manager, head coach, Carrick does have the club at heart, you can see that. And so in this world of kind of brutal football economics and, you know, ownerships that are coming in for the financial gain or, or for different, you know, for soft power or whatever. Having someone that loves the game clearly came through, you know, West Ham's academy, you know, played for Tottenham, came to United, won everything at United, was a fabulous player. He obviously cares about the club. So having that person as your figurehead, I think still has merit beyond, okay, what, what should, you know, what should you see V shows basically?

• 33:04Speaker 00

  It's early in the season. How long, that sounds terrible. How long do you think?

• 33:10Speaker 04

  Go on, Gary.

• 33:11Speaker 00

  I mean, it's that, it's that million dollar question. I mean, I, because football club owners will always want to take the heat off themselves. And when the club's struggling, they'll, they'll use the coach as the way out, which me, for me, it's ultimately about players. Therefore it's about recruitment and whatever budget you've got, it's who you bring in. Great coaches will make a slight difference. But I think at this level, pretty much all the coaches know what they're doing, they're pretty good. So I think it's, it's, it's a difficult one. But fundamentally, United, they need to get on the straight and narrow. The, the, the club needs to be run

• 33:52Speaker 00

  properly. Now, I'm sure Jim Ratcliffe thinks he's running it properly as far as he's concerned. But do you think they should consult the fans a little bit more? I mean, everyone says that because, and, and all fans will have different viewpoints as well. It is very difficult, isn't it? Particularly, I suppose, to sustain the success that Manchester United have had over such a, a long period of time.

• 34:18Speaker 04

  Yeah. I mean, they've got the Fan Advisory Board, you know, it's a part of the regulations that they have to have that, there's a fans forum, you know, they, they do meet. I, I think certainly, perhaps under the previous regime, it got to a point where they felt there was real agency there. And some of the changes that they made at Old Trafford, for example, safe standing, taking out the executive seats from the Stretford End and putting them to, you know, the kind of general admission fans were really great moves to kind of, you know, get that atmosphere back because it's all about the atmosphere, right? Like it's all about making that stadium as much of an intimidating place as you can do. Now, it's obviously difficult in the modern era with ticket prices being as they are and, and, you know, kind of football being on TV, but that, that, that felt a good place.

• 35:01Speaker 04

  Now, I, you know, Ratcliffe has, has got different views on that, I think. So, yeah, I mean, how much to consult on fans generally? I mean, I know that fan ownership at certain clubs can really work, but it is also difficult in others because you have loads of different, you know, thoughts and opinions on what team should be played. And you could ask 10 fans outside Old Trafford on Saturday, they'd all give you a different opinion about.

• 35:25Speaker 00

  Or any other football club.

• 35:27Speaker 04

  Yeah. But I agree that, you know, football is about the fans. That's what makes it special, that connection, that atmosphere. That's why it's the global game. So you cannot, you should not discount them. And, and I think United could do better at having that kind of dialogue and, and having, giving them real agency.

• 35:44Speaker 00

  Let me ask you one final question, Laurie, and thank you very much for your time. What's the one change that you personally would like to see made?

• 35:55Speaker 04

  It feels, it feels impossible. Well, yeah. Personally, I would like to see the Glazers gone from, you know, Manchester United because that change, you know, just really affected and still impacts United now. You know, would that be a sale to, the difficulty is who buys United now? You know, there's, there's no ideal owner.

• 36:16Speaker 00

  It's still Manchester United though.

• 36:18Speaker 04

  Exactly. So I, I would like, I mean, could you ever have a world where there is some fan ownership of Manchester United with, you know, kind of wealthy United fans?

• 36:28Speaker 00

  Like Barcelona.

• 36:30Speaker 04

  Like Barcelona. And again, Barcelona's not an ideal model, is it? Because you have certain issues.

• 36:34Speaker 00

  There's been a lot of issues there over the last two decades.

• 36:37Speaker 04

  Yeah. So maybe it's a utopian ideal that I'm thinking of, but yeah, that would, that would probably be it. Cause then you'd hope, you'd feel that there would be more energy. I, I suppose I look at Tony Bloom at Brighton and I know it's a much smaller scale, but someone that clearly cares for the club, is smart about it, is smart about the investment that he's making. And also has that energy, is present, someone that's present, you know, without being overstepping the mark. So, yeah. I, I appreciate it's a difficult thing, but it feels like that underpins absolutely everything that happens at United.

• 37:07Speaker 00

  Okay. We'll ask, we'll ask one more. Where, where will United finish this season?

• 37:11Speaker 04

  Oh, I'm so bad at predictions, Gary. I don't, I don't bet.

• 37:17Speaker 00

  Go pessimistic and then anything above that is a bonus.

• 37:20Speaker 04

  Well, I mean, listen, if they finish top half at the moment, you know, it's that's an improvement.

• 37:23Speaker 00

  That is pessimistic.

• 37:24Speaker 04

  I, I think Europa League, I think they could get, you know, back into sort of seventh, seventh, shall we say.

• 37:29Speaker 00

  Well.

• 37:29Speaker 04

  Which may be not good enough. I don't know.

• 37:31Speaker 00

  Well, it might be sixth, given events of the other team.

• 37:34Speaker 04

  Good point. Yes, that is very fascinating how that's all going to unravel.

• 37:37Speaker 00

  Yeah. What's the feeling? Sorry, I'm going on here, but.

• 37:40Speaker 04

  No, this is like how I do interviews, Gary. I always think of one more question.

• 37:43Speaker 00

  Well, it's okay. I just think with, what, what's the United view? Are they quite enjoying what's happening?

• 37:49Speaker 04

  It's really, this is really fascinating because their whole approach has shifted since Ratcliffe came in because they were one of the strongest lobbyists to the Premier League to take action against City because of what they saw as inflated commercial deals, which has obviously now been, you know, found guilty of by the independent commission. Because they were getting, you know, investors that I know of were asking questions about United, saying, why are our commercial levels not rising like City's? And City overtook United, you know, 23 to the one treble. And this isn't part of the, you know, charges as such, but, you know, 340 million in commercial revenue for City, 300 million for United. And that's just unfathomable for the scale of what United are compared to City. So, yeah.

• 38:34Speaker 04

  So, but, so they were lobbying hard for the Premier League to take action. You know, the Glazer certainly were kind of thinking we did, that's, that's what they would say they added to the club, their, their commercial savviness, you know, kind of getting money from other companies. Yeah. And so, you know, really increasing that. Now, Ratcliffe's view is on record as more sympathetic to that. He, he was asked about it when he first took over United and basically said, well, I'm smashing on the pitch. We don't want to. He wouldn't see that as, as fair, you know, kind of City getting done in that way. And obviously he's made hires from City. Omar Barada being chief amongst that, chief executive, you know, he was at City for a long time before that. Jason Wilcox, director of football, Sam Erith, performance director, Steve Torpey, academy director. So there's a big City sort of contingent.

• 39:19Speaker 04

  And that, that's kind of separate to what's going on with City and the independent commission. But I think Ratcliffe sees, saw City as a, a prototype for success and he's trying to tap into that. So, you know, I think he generally thinks of regulation being, you know, not a great thing. So he's kind of deregulating, you know, across both the oil industry and, and, and also in sport. But so, so it's an interesting thing that United now are in. They did register their right to seek damages in 2024, you know, via the Premier League mechanism. So it's not, you know, they're not out of time on that. I think it's like six years is usually the, the idea behind when the course of action was, was needed to be taken. Now, some lawyers I've spoken to say that it could actually be

• 40:01Speaker 04

  when the guilty verdict was passed, that's when the six year starting pistol starts. But, you know, it took the, the safe route with Spurs, Liverpool, Arsenal. So they can seek damages now. How hard will they push that? It's going to be fascinating to see, given the kind of way that, that Ratcliffe has been more, I suppose, sympathetic to, to City's plight. So, yeah, it's a, yeah, it's an interesting topic for sure, Gary.

• 40:24Speaker 00

  Well, it is, and it's going to run and run for a while. That's for sure. Laurie, thank you so much for, for giving your time, very generous with it. And remain, remain optimistic.

• 40:34Speaker 04

  Thank you, Gary. No, it's been, been a good chat. Thanks for having me on. I always try and, you know, glass half full kind of thing. I'm in Madrid, you know, I'm watching United in the Champions League. It's, it's good times.

• 40:42Speaker 00

  It's nice. What a, what a time to be alive. Thank you very much, Laurie. And that's it for this episode. The rest is football. Goodbye from me.

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