Messi inspires Argentina again as Egypt left fuming with VAR

Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer, Micah Richards and Joe Cole react to Argentina's late comeback as they beat Egypt 3-2 in a game which featured yet another goal, and an assist, from Messi and a contentious VAR call that left Egypt up in arms We also look at Switzerland progressing via penalties against Colombia in a shootout which continued the trend of centre-backs stepping up and missing their penalties Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:38Speaker 04

  We have our quarter-finalist. Switzerland beat Colombia on penalties, and reigning champions Argentina came back from two behind against an extremely unfortunate Egypt. Welcome to The Rest Is Football on the show tonight. It's Micah Richards, Alan Shearer, and Joe Cole. He's back. He took a couple of days, nipped home. I need to ask you where you watched the England game?

• 0:59Speaker 05

  I watched it with the kids, 2am in the morning.

• 1:02Speaker 04

  You let them stay up?

• 1:03Speaker 05

  I let them stay up. Well, they went to bed. They agreed to go to bed at 8pm. They were good. We woke up at 2am and they were charged, mate. It was like watching it with two hooligans. And it was one of the best games I've watched for England.

• 1:17Speaker 04

  You're jumping up and coming in.

• 1:18Speaker 05

  Ah, brilliant. And I give them, I shouldn't say this, but the score, I give them the morning off of school the next day.

• 1:24Speaker 04

  Did any kids turn up for school, I wonder? What did you think of them in the game? It was something else, right?

• 1:29Speaker 05

  It was superb. I was thinking about it because, I mean, I'm an England fan. I love, like, your England team, Gary, like, that was the one that switched me on to football. 96, I went to the games at Wembley, and I think that performance by that team made me feel like that little kid watching England again. Like, the fight, and like, you know, we was up, we were screaming at the telly against the Mexicans, you know. I swore I'm never going to drink mezcal again, ever. I was right for it, and then...

• 1:58Speaker 04

  We definitely know that's not true.

• 2:00Speaker 05

  That amnesty will last till maybe tomorrow night. But just watching it with the boys was lovely and we had a great time.

• 2:08Speaker 04

  Today's games start with another extraordinary football match. Well, let's go to Micah because he's there on his own. Amazing game, wasn't it, Argentina Egypt? I mean, it looked done, didn't it? 2-0 up, 10 minutes to go and back they came. I think they had a degree of fortune, but...

• 2:25Speaker 06

  I thought it was all over. I did, I thought Egypt played really well. They played really low and then the counter-attack with pace was great to see. But I thought when Egypt were leading, they was being... I don't know if it was overconfident, but you're just thinking, see out the game? They were still trying to go forward. And you know, when Messi's behind you, he's gonna punish you. And yeah, I'm just thinking, Messi is still on the pitch. Anything can happen at any time. And I just thought there was being quite naive, the way they defended in the end. Yes, we'll talk about the decisions and all that. But Lionel Messi, I mean, he does nothing for 80 minutes.

• 3:09Speaker 06

  He's just scanning the pitch to see where the space is. He goes from forward position then to the middle position, not getting the ball, trying to break down that low block at times when it was in it. And he just thinks, alright, I'll go to the right hand side, no problem. I'll whip the ball in for the first and then I'll make sure I've got something to say. And he turned up and it was inevitable that he was gonna do that. And it was all just waiting. I think Egypt needed a third goal to see that game out. But Lionel Messi, man, I mean, he's just incredible. It's unbelievable how he keeps doing it and doing it and doing it.

• 3:46Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's crazy when you think about it. I mean, he's got some extraordinary statistics. And I actually thought it was probably the poorest game I've seen him play for a long time, until about 80 minutes, but that's what great players do. He's now scored in nine consecutive World Cup matches. Klose was leading World Cup scorer, of course, before this tournament with 16 goals. Messi has now scored 15 World Cup goals since turning 35.

• 4:11Speaker 07

  Staggering.

• 4:13Speaker 04

  I mean, 21 now in total.

• 4:14Speaker 07

  And he's missed two penalties this tournament as well.

• 4:18Speaker 04

  He's useless at penalties though, I mean, that's something. He's now got nine World Cup assists as well, which is taking him clear of any other player, one ahead of Diego, Armando Maradona, who's obviously his fellow countryman there. I mean... What can you say about him?

• 4:32Speaker 07

  Well, we can't say any words that haven't already been used. Sensational, different class, incredible, all of those things. And that is the sign of a great player is that you have a huge disappointment. Which he did again with a penalty. And he was having a really poor game. Nothing was going for him, the ball was bouncing off him, he was giving it away. And then all of a sudden.

• 4:55Speaker 07

  And that's what great players do, they just have that split second and then.

• 4:59Speaker 04

  And they don't let adversity. Deal.

• 5:02Speaker 05

  He was emotional. He was emotional at the end. And he showed everything, the long career and what he's won. And I think, I think maybe what flashed between his eyes was this is, this could all end. My Argentina career could end tonight. 2-0 down at Egypt.

• 5:18Speaker 04

  Missed penalty.

• 5:18Speaker 05

  Missed penalty and he's thinking, you know, he's thinking his time's numbered. And I think that must have all come flooding out for him at the end of it. Which, which makes me think he's human because sometimes I watch him and I think there should be a stewards on him because I don't think there's any footballer ever that can do the thing. Do you know what I mean, Gis? I was a technical player, I'd like to think I could handle the football. But he does things and it's always, it's not even in the, in the extraordinary things he does. It's in the basic things that he does, the decision making, the touch for the goal the other night. You know.

• 5:50Speaker 04

  The weight of passion.

• 5:51Speaker 05

  Weight of passion.

• 5:52Speaker 04

  The vision.

• 5:52Speaker 05

  There's nothing and nobody that's come before him. And I'm throwing everyone in that name and, and there's the young greats around, your Haalands and your Mbappes. They're miles, they're going to be miles off whatever he's going to achieve. He's just a blessing and I think, I think I might have cried if that was his last game at a World Cup, I'm never going to see him. You know what I mean?

• 6:11Speaker 07

  I thought it was amazing to see that emotion because after what he's done in the game, it means, still means. That much to him and we've said it before, doesn't.

• 6:19Speaker 06

  Can I ask you a question, Gaz? Because you, you read the stats out there, Gaz, in terms of the amount of goals Messi has scored after 35. Does that mean the teams now are, are not as good as he just elevated his game? Argentina's just playing more for him? I feel as though back when he was playing, when he started, the teams were better. Obviously now in the World Cup, there are more teams and although they've performed well, the lower teams in the World Cup, in terms of the ranks normally or historically, they wouldn't even be played in the World Cup. Has that got anything to do with not just Messi, but the amounts of goals we're now seeing at the World Cup?

• 7:01Speaker 04

  Well, I think definitely this World Cup, because obviously we've got 48 teams, not 32. So you've got 16 extra sides and some of which are not as strong, obviously, as clubs would normally be in a World Cup. So you've also got an extra game, round of 32. So I understand why it's higher on this particular World Cup. But having said that, his numbers are still better than everyone else's at the present moment.

• 7:25Speaker 07

  I think because of the number of games though, is that every record's going to get smashed. Every record's going to get broken.

• 7:31Speaker 04

  Yeah, of course.

• 7:31Speaker 07

  Because of the number of games and perhaps because of the quality or the lack of it, particularly in earlier games. They're all going to get smashed.

• 7:40Speaker 05

  The rule changes, Gaz, as well. You can't touch him. I remember playing against him many times for Chelsea. And like every attacking player, you could be brutalised, you could be fouled and things. The game was more aggressive. And I think now it's worked out that nobody can touch me here.

• 7:58Speaker 04

  Could you go man to man on him?

• 7:59Speaker 05

  Yeah, but it's still the same rules that apply.

• 8:01Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:02Speaker 05

  You lean on him, you're going to give away a foul. It will inevitably be in a dangerous position.

• 8:07Speaker 04

  But can you, if I'm just hypothetically, say you put one man on Messi and you say, right, because Messi just stands a lot of the time.

• 8:15Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 8:16Speaker 04

  Stand with him. Because what happens Messi, this is where he's clever. People go, well, he doesn't really move. The reason he doesn't move is he knows the person that's closest to him will move. So as soon as the ball gets down there, the defender naturally drifts off and he stays. And when he gets the ball, then he can do something with it. But my theory is, can you go man to man and just say, right, you forget any other aspect of the game, you just stand with Messi. Against a team like Argentina who's so reliant on him.

• 8:43Speaker 07

  Yeah.

• 8:43Speaker 04

  I just wonder whether that, do you think that would work, Michael? Is he just too good?

• 8:46Speaker 06

  He's too good.

• 8:48Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 8:48Speaker 06

  He's too good because there's many factors.

• 8:51Speaker 07

  The other option, Micah, is do whatever one tries, has tried for years. Which is not man marking, and he's got around that as well. Every, every, sorry to put in, but I, I think that's a really valid idea to do that because just say, forget about doing anything else. You just stick with him, you stop him, because if you stop Messi, you basically stop Argentina.

• 9:12Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 9:12Speaker 07

  And if you've got a guy who is as fit as can be, who can run, who can, who can just go bang, I'm sticking with you, I'm not moving. I think, I think that is a, is a, is a proper option.

• 9:22Speaker 04

  I've spoken, I've spoken to players that have played against him defensively and they say, you can't do that because he's too clever. And the other thing, if you rely on one person to go man to man, if he beats that one person, then what does the rest of the team do?

• 9:35Speaker 07

  But he's, he's, he's, he can get around the fact that no one's man marking him, because you've just said he finds the space, whatever, so that has to be a viable option.

• 9:43Speaker 04

  It's, it's almost unplayable.

• 9:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, you can't, you can't, you can't, as a defender there trying to mark Messi, it's, it's virtually impossible because spatial awareness, so if you're marking him, even if you say you put a defensive midfielder on him, so if Messi goes and stands out on the right, then space opens up in the centre of the pitch. Then he's got spatial awareness round him, where he's always scanning, similar to David Silva. Everyone used to say, he's so small, why can't he just, because he, he knows where to get the ball, receive it, and also that, I've talked about spatial awareness. It's his first touch, so if you're going in, because he's so agile, and if you're putting someone on him, would be a bigger person, I, I would say more a defensive person, so

• 10:30Speaker 06

  the time it takes you to move, he's already thought about what he's going to do, and then he pops it off, and then you, you have to still look at play while you're man marking someone, and he's so quick in his mind, it's impossible to, to read what he's going to do, and what he did in the game today, okay, there's no space in the middle of the pitch, I'll just go out on the right, you think you're all right, but because technically so good, if he doesn't dribble past you, if he doesn't shoot, he will just put in an unbelievable ball too, so it's, It's actually impossible to mark and if you're talking about trying to mark him, you're going to be tired. You said he's walking around but you're constantly having

• 11:12Speaker 06

  to adapt to your position while watching the ball and engage. So you're getting more tired and he's fresh because he's walking about. He'll just be walking into positions where you don't want to be, which then opens up space for the rest of the team. So ultimately it's impossible to mark because he's that good.

• 11:27Speaker 04

  He's extraordinarily good, he really is. Let's give, I think, a lot of credit to Egypt. I mean, there were massive underdogs going into this game. I thought their defending was brilliant until the last, obviously towards the end. Obviously the keeper played really well, saved the penalty. They were 2-0 up with 10 minutes to go. They had an overturn by VAR that, I mean, you can say technically it was possibly a foul. But is that enough? At the start of this tournament, Alan, they weren't intervening in things like that. They were letting it go, letting it go, letting it go. Now they're in their little box there, the three of them, and they're getting a little bit bored. Oh, let's do something. Let's have a look at this one. Slight clash of toes. And I mean, I must admit, I was shocked at

• 12:10Speaker 04

  that. Ultimately, did it make any difference? We'll never know because it would have gone 2-0 and they went to 2-0 anyway and obviously everything is different should things change. But I think they're a little bit hard done to in the game, Alan.

• 12:21Speaker 07

  Yeah. I mean, the reason why, I guess, so many people will get angry because as much as I don't think the Salah incident in the penalty box was a penalty, as much as I don't think the shirt pull in the box was a penalty, that same logic applies for that free kick that was given.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  Correct.

• 12:41Speaker 07

  So if you're going to give that one, then there's a huge argument to say, well, one of those has to be. If you're giving that as a foul, you're actually going 110 yards back and saying, sorry, that was a foul. We're going to disallow one of the best goals of the tournament. I think, and I can say what I want on here, I think it's utter and complete bollocks. I really do. I just, no wonder there's so many theories about it stinks. I mean, you've got the top four in the world, Rankin's, England, France, Spain and Argentina. If they win their group, they all then guaranteed they can't meet each other until at least a semi-final. You've got...

• 13:27Speaker 07

  Interference from presidents, say making calls, and then you get that in that game because of Argentina. You think, no wonder, you can't blame people for coming up with these theories, can you?

• 13:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, but it was, it was a foul though in.

• 13:43Speaker 07

  No, Micah, the referee didn't, the referee didn't give it.

• 13:47Speaker 04

  It wasn't enough to turn.

• 13:48Speaker 07

  It was never ever enough to say sorry. That is a clear and obvious foul.

• 13:53Speaker 06

  I agree with clear and obvious, but we've seen those given in the World Cup, haven't we?

• 13:59Speaker 07

  But we've seen them not given, so therefore it's not a clear and obvious foul. The referees at the beginning of the tournament, I was all for them saying.

• 14:07Speaker 06

  Once it went to VAR, it was, it was obviously gonna give it in the modern day game.

• 14:12Speaker 07

  Of course it was, but it's never, it's not that much of a, it's not that much of a howler to say, we're gonna go 110 yards further back and we're gonna rule that out as a clear, that is it. They're saying that's a complete and utter foul. The referee didn't give it. So the referees earlier on in the tournament were not giving those fouls.

• 14:29Speaker 04

  They weren't.

• 14:30Speaker 07

  Were not giving, if you look at, I did an early game when Mbappe was fouled as it was a clear penalty. The referee went to the screen and said, no, I'm sticking with my decision, I'm not giving that. Now you compare that to what was given today.

• 14:42Speaker 04

  I'm totally with you, Alan, but the problem is we will never ever get consistency from VAR because they changed their tune. They weren't involved much at the start of the tournament. Then they want to get involved, now they're being more involved. Now they'll probably go less involved because there'll be a bit of a stink about this one. The problem is not necessarily all the people doing VAR, the problem is VAR itself. It's turned, it's completely.

• 15:08Speaker 06

  Do you think it was a foul though? Forget, forget if it goes out.

• 15:10Speaker 07

  Maybe, maybe.

• 15:11Speaker 04

  Maybe, maybe not.

• 15:12Speaker 06

  Do you think it's a foul?

• 15:13Speaker 04

  No, I think, I don't, I don't think it's a foul.

• 15:18Speaker 06

  In the later rounds of the competition, they're gonna scrutinize everything. I agree with you, Alan, VAR is a fucking nightmare. We all know that. We hate it, we don't like it.

• 15:28Speaker 04

  We need to get it out.

• 15:29Speaker 06

  I agree with that, but once it is gone to VAR, we all know that in the modern day game, that is a foul, you know?

• 15:37Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, I think it's two players just putting their foot down and one's slightly flicked his toe. Now, I don't think that even in, even now, is necessarily a foul. It's certainly not necess- like necessarily enough of a foul to turn a decision over. Because, and that's where, that's where the problem with VAR is. This thing about, is it enough of a foul? Which in it's, it's either a foul or it's not. If they just change it and say, right, it's either a foul or not. But at the moment, they're still using this thing, it has to be enough of a, for a turnover. And therefore, it will always be a nightmare. The only way out of this, I've said it a million times, is an appeal system that will eventually come, I'm sure of it. Because you, you, we can't carry on as it is.

• 16:18Speaker 07

  It will.

• 16:19Speaker 04

  Joe, you've been a bit quiet. I know you think it was probably a foul and I think you would like it.

• 16:24Speaker 05

  I think, I agree with all of ya. I don't like VAR. I thought they started off at the tournament well, and then, and then the last few, few games, it's, it's gone a bit sideways. But I think it was a foul. It was a soft foul. In the current, in the modern game, it's a soft foul. But I think what happened there was, I think that it was subconscious bias. Because VAR is supposed to be, we're gonna make it everything, so it's not a contentious.

• 16:48Speaker 07

  Subconscious bias to what?

• 16:48Speaker 05

  Subconscious bias with the bigger clubs. With the bigger teams, bigger countries, big, and it happens, because I, I feel like, I've seen it happen in my own career, where referees favour bigger players, bigger teams, and I've played for big teams, and I've played for smaller teams as well. So it's, it's human nature, and I think that they've gone, this ain't, this ain't part of the script. Egypt beating Argentina. And I think, oh, there might have been a little foul, let's look at that. Alright, we'll have a look at it, but, so I think there's a little bit of that that comes into play with it.

• 17:16Speaker 04

  Yeah, well, you, you know, I don't think any of us think they're deliberately corrupt or anything like that. But there is just a conscious thing.

• 17:22Speaker 05

  Subconscious thing where, you know, everyone, everyone loves Argentina, everyone loves Messi. You know, and they found that, they found a tiny little foul in the build-up. And it's a hun- and, and through their, but, but in fairness to them, through the laws of the game, the action, although it was a beautiful goal and it was a hundred yards run.

• 17:40Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 17:40Speaker 05

  There was no change.

• 17:41Speaker 04

  Fabulous goal.

• 17:42Speaker 05

  There was no change of phase, so they, they, from the laws of the game, their laws. They can go back and look at it and it's a foul, it's not a foul. You know, you think it is and I think it is. But it wasn't enough to rule out that goal, but they...

• 17:57Speaker 07

  Hundred, over a hundred yards further back, I mean, come on. Seriously. If you're given that, you have to give one of the others that Egypt will complain about.

• 18:08Speaker 04

  And others in other games.

• 18:10Speaker 07

  There are so many.

• 18:11Speaker 06

  Hold on, hold on, let's get to the bottom of this. You in the studio, Alan Shearer. Are you Sir Alan Shearer yet? You were promoting VAR.

• 18:21Speaker 07

  Yeah, I'll tell you why I was, because if you remember.

• 18:24Speaker 06

  Before it came into our beautiful game.

• 18:27Speaker 07

  If you remember, the reason, what they told us was, maximum benefit, minimum interference. We're not going to re-referee and for the clear and obvious only. I was for that, not for this bollocks that we're seeing every single week and what we're seeing in this tournament.

• 18:43Speaker 05

  You've got shares in VAR, is that what you're saying?

• 18:49Speaker 04

  What about Argentina overall though? They scraped past Cape Verde, didn't they, 3-2? That remarkable performance, Cape Verde. They've scraped past Egypt and a remarkable performance from Egypt and they've managed to come back again. Their average age of the team is 30 years and 170 days. Is this, are they starting, I mean, the thing is, they still came back and scored three goals in the last 10 minutes, Micah. But, I mean, they are, they are an aging side. Are they as strong as they were four years ago?

• 19:19Speaker 06

  We'll have to wait and see, I think it's a difficult one because they've found a way. How many times have we talked in the Premier League or the Champions League? I remember Real Madrid when they beat Man City, PSG, and I think it was Chelsea on that run, and they was the worst team. And we was talking about how they've done it, they've found a way. In terms of the energy, yes, they're looking a little older because essentially having to do Messi's running. And that's why I said what I said about Ronaldo yesterday. If you're going to say all the stuff about Ronaldo not running, Messi doesn't run as well. But the team played for him, they're constantly having to change players for him. And because he's a genius, they find a way to get over the line.

• 20:02Speaker 06

  So if you ask me, if they was playing against England, I think England can run them all over the pitch and really make it really intense and make it hard for them. But the difference is with Argentina, the fight and the spirit and them having Messi, for some reason, the man should just get over the line. So if you're looking at it as all the stats, you think, yes, we could play Argentina. They look vulnerable, certainly on the counter-attack, and they look a little bit frail in terms of their edge of the team, but they find a way to win and that is a hard thing to do.

• 20:36Speaker 07

  It's a brilliant skill they've got in terms of their attitude. You can see, look at the emotion at the end, and I know what they had to go through to get there at the end, but you've got to give them huge credit for getting there in the end, for being 2-0 down, for having that attitude to say, we're not done here. And we all knew, we all knew that if they were to get one, then the chances are they were going to go on and get another one and perhaps win it, as they did. But you've got, that is a great thing to have, is that never say die attitude and fighting for their country.

• 21:08Speaker 04

  Joe, I'm going to ask a question now that I never thought I'd ask.

• 21:11Speaker 05

  Right.

• 21:11Speaker 04

  Would you take Lionel Messi off penalties?

• 21:16Speaker 05

  Do you know what?

• 21:16Speaker 04

  Four in eight he's missed in World Cups. I mean, it's the one kind of...

• 21:20Speaker 05

  He's a human! Scaloni, I'll tell you one thing, Scaloni would have thought about it, and he'd probably be walking to Lionel Messi's room thinking, should I have this conversation? And I think he'll walk right past his room and just leave it up to the big man.

• 21:32Speaker 04

  One thing I would say about him, he's not that kind of selfish. I don't think he's so bothered about that, because I've, you know, I've seen him so many times in his career just give someone else a penalty because he feels like it. Never because he's worried about missing himself.

• 21:46Speaker 05

  He looked nervous, Scott.

• 21:47Speaker 04

  Well, I think-

• 21:47Speaker 05

  And that's incredible.

• 21:49Speaker 04

  I don't think he looked any different to how he always looks. He's just got his just serious face and br- I think you read things into things when they miss and then you go, oh, I think he looked a bit nervous. But I'm, I'm-

• 21:59Speaker 07

  I think he's the one that's going to have to go and say, lads, I'll give it to Callister.

• 22:04Speaker 04

  It can be down to him.

• 22:05Speaker 05

  Well, you've got Alvarez takes pens, Enzo Fernandez takes pens.

• 22:09Speaker 04

  Martin is very good at pens.

• 22:11Speaker 05

  Exactly. So they've got enough people there, and I think he's a giver, Messi. He gives himself to his team. So I think he might even step down himself.

• 22:24Speaker 04

  Speaking of penalties, the other game was a bit turgid really. They both had their chances, Switzerland and Colombia, goalless draw, penalty shootout. What did we make of that, Micah? A couple of centre backs. What is it with this thing about giving defenders penalties? I don't get it.

• 22:39Speaker 06

  Because we've got bottle, that's why. You strikers may want to take all the credit for everything. When it's time to step up for your nation, where are they? Hiding.

• 22:48Speaker 04

  Hang on a minute, Micah. How many penalty shootouts have you done in a World Cup? Oh, you haven't been to a World Cup, sorry.

• 23:01Speaker 04

  I think you can accuse us of many things, but not having the balls to step up for a penalty is not one of them.

• 23:06Speaker 06

  So why are we seeing all the centre backs taking the penalties? Having to do everything.

• 23:10Speaker 04

  It is weird.

• 23:11Speaker 06

  To make you look good and take penalties as well.

• 23:14Speaker 04

  And they're all hitting them over the bar.

• 23:16Speaker 06

  And they're not stepping up.

• 23:18Speaker 04

  Yeah, they're all hitting them over the bar.

• 23:19Speaker 05

  There's been some terrible penalties in the shootouts. One thing I would say, you know, there's been some, you know, players, how many times have we seen players miss the target on this World Cup?

• 23:27Speaker 04

  I think the interesting thing, Damit Sánchez, the captain, obviously, you know, when he went for the toss-up for penalties?

• 23:32Speaker 07

  I couldn't believe that.

• 23:32Speaker 04

  He didn't know, I mean, surely that's all pre-planned?

• 23:36Speaker 07

  Yeah, but exactly.

• 23:37Speaker 04

  Because everyone, the statistics are clear, if you take the first penalty, you're 60% more like, well, 60 to 40% they win, the team that goes first with penalties. And he didn't, he didn't know, he had to call the goalkeeper, what do you fancy?

• 23:52Speaker 05

  That just shows lack of preparation. You know, you know the Swiss and then everything, they would have been there on it, they'll know all the little intricacies that go involved in a penalty shootout. For instance, you know, when you're the goalkeeper and someone scores, you're supposed to grab the ball and give it to your player, rather than, because you know, the opposition gets it, they boot it away, it's a longer time to wait. There's all these little mind games that go on. The Colombians look like they were just making it up as they went along.

• 24:17Speaker 07

  I found that absolutely staggering. Like, you've got the captain of your country and you're going up to flick the coin. One is where you're going to take it, which end? And then the other one is, is who has the first penalty? And he wins it and he hasn't got a clue whether he, team, is going to take the first penalty or not. I mean, surely, at this level, you have to know that decision before you're going in to do the toss of a coin. It's staggering, that is.