Terrible Germany crash out as Brazil fight back

Gary Lineker, Alan Shearer, Micah Richards, Emma Hayes, Millie Bright and Joe Cole break down a big World Cup shock as a disappointing Germany were sent home by Paraguay on penalties. They also reflect on Brazil’s 2-1 victory over Japan, with Carlo Ancelotti’s men overturning an early goal to put the South Americans through to the Round of 16. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 4:08Speaker 03

  Hello and welcome to The Rest is Football. The knockout stage is off and running. Lots of entertainment, penalty shootouts, much to talk about. With Alan and Micah also in the studio tonight, Millie Bright, Lioness and Emma Hayes, now the US coach of course, and Joe Cole. And don't forget, if you prefer to watch the show, you can get it on Netflix every day.

• 4:33Speaker 03

  Someone once said, "Football is a simple game. 22 players, chase a ball for 90 minutes, and at the end, the Germans always win." What a fucking idiot. Welcome to The Rest Is Football, and what a day of football it's been! We'll get into that Germany result and all of today's games in a moment, but first, Millie, Emma, welcome to the show. Lovely to have you here, you too of course, Jack. You guys all know each other so well.

• 5:00Speaker 05

  Up the Chelsea.

• 5:01Speaker 06

  Chelsea crew.

• 5:02Speaker 05

  We're together, safety in numbers.

• 5:05Speaker 03

  But you know even further about me.

• 5:07Speaker 06

  I know Emma from back in the day, we're from the same part of London. Her dad was a brilliant football man, looked after all the young kids in the area, getting them out of trouble, getting them playing football, and he did a really, really good job for all my mates and me.

• 5:20Speaker 03

  He got you out of trouble, did he as well?

• 5:21Speaker 06

  Got me out of trouble. Not the only person, I need a few people to help me with that, keep me out of trouble.

• 5:26Speaker 03

  And you would have played for Emma for about 10 years?

• 5:30Speaker 07

  Yeah, just a short period.

• 5:31Speaker 05

  Few times, yeah. She got me out of trouble a few times, I think it's the other way around.

• 5:36Speaker 03

  Oh really? You spilled the tea.

• 5:37Speaker 05

  Later on.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  What's she like to play for? Demanding?

• 5:41Speaker 07

  Yeah, of course, but I feel like you have to be to be the calibre that she's at as a coach. I've always said, I said it when I first seen you, didn't I, "Finally my life coach is back, she's more than a manager", but yeah, to play under her was probably the best years of my career, to be honest.

• 5:57Speaker 06

  Millie, you know like when you meet your manager, so you have a long period of time with a manager and they leave and all of a sudden they're not your manager anymore? Even now, when I meet my old managers, I'm like, "Gaffer, boss", it's hard, isn't it?

• 6:08Speaker 07

  It is, and I still feel like I'm a player. I think I always will, that's literally my whole career, Chelsea is my career.

• 6:15Speaker 03

  Can I ask a really dumb question? Do you call Emma boss or gaffer, like he said?

• 6:21Speaker 07

  No.

• 6:21Speaker 03

  Was it always that?

• 6:22Speaker 07

  I'm not as cringy as that.

• 6:26Speaker 06

  Do you know what it is with managers, whenever you meet them, because they've all got egos, don't they? I know you meet them and you might be 10 years after you've played with them, "All right, Gaffer", yeah, they feel that.

• 6:37Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 6:38Speaker 05

  To be honest with you, you know, you might see it like that, we just see like a lot of love for our players and being in your lives, we've watched you as young people, I always say this, managers, we get older, players stay the same age.

• 6:52Speaker 03

  I wish that were true.

• 6:53Speaker 05

  Well, at least in terms of turnovers of them, they're always young.

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Millie as a player.

• 6:59Speaker 05

  Winner, winner, chicken dinner. No, I mean honestly, I've been through many experiences with Mill. We just had the ability to gut things out together, even in moments where we couldn't even speak to each other, it was unspoken, our ability to be able to grind through games.

• 7:21Speaker 03

  What I didn't know about, I didn't realise you were a Spurs fan.

• 7:23Speaker 05

  Yeah, no, absolutely, I'm from a household of Spurs and Chelsea, so it was always a split loyalty thing, not for me, and there I was in 1991, in that beautiful Wembley Stadium, with my Tottenham tracksuit on, stood behind the Gazza free kick.

• 7:45Speaker 03

  Oh, the semi-final of the FA Cup.

• 7:47Speaker 05

  Semi-final, thank you for filling that in.

• 7:51Speaker 05

  And it roofed in the top corner and I had my jacket tied around my tracksuit bottoms and I was like, "Yes!", and that was it, screamed at me, Arsenal fans, "Get her out of here", and I was whisked up the stairs, taken out of the section, I managed to come back round and yes, I did see the finale of the game.

• 8:10Speaker 03

  Well, I was going to say, I hope you saw the two important goals.

• 8:13Speaker 05

  And that contribution at the end, so thank you very much for those memories and getting a little kick in at Wembley from the Gooners.

• 8:20Speaker 03

  Yeah, okay, well, one of the biggest shocks of the tournament so far was Paraguay sending Germany home on penalties after a 1-1 draw. Alan and Micah both worked on the match and I caught up with them straight after full time.

• 8:36Speaker 03

  Alan, Micah, great to see you in different parts of the world. Alan, you're in Boston because you were at the game earlier on where Germany went out against Paraguay. You were doing the game for the BBC in Salford. Micah, now I can see you're back in your garage, shall we call it. Well, I don't think any of us thought Germany were going to be a real threat in this tournament. But at the same time, Alan, I didn't think they'd go out in this round.

• 9:06Speaker 06

  Yeah, I watched them or did the game against Ecuador and because there was no jeopardy for them, they'd already won the group, I was willing to give them a bit of a free pass. But I wasn't that impressed with their performance in that game. But I was expecting a little bit more this evening because you're now into the knockout rounds. But I have to tell you, that first half was as bad a performance I've seen for a long, long time. They were weak, there was no energy and every single one of them were hopeless. And I was expecting a lot more after the break. They changed it a little bit. They then started in the second half to put balls into the box very, very early, which

• 9:51Speaker 06

  sort of helped them. They got the goal through that with Wirtz, the cross, and Havertz getting in front of the defender. And I thought, okay, they're going to go on and win the game. But no, I wasn't impressed with them at all and I thought they were really, really poor. And they deserved to go out, actually.

• 10:07Speaker 03

  Yeah, Micah, that's now three tournaments on the trot, World Cup tournaments, where they've not made it into the round of 16. What's gone wrong with German football?

• 10:22Speaker 06

  To be honest, I don't have the actual answer because if you look at the players, when you've got someone like Musiala, when you've got Wirtz, when you've got Havertz, who I said is a big game player, when you've got players like Rudiger and Tarr at the back, you think they're solid enough, Kimmich as well, right back and play midfield, you're looking at it and thinking, they should be doing a lot more. I think the decision to bring back Neuer has not gone down well in German.

• 10:57Speaker 06

  Germany, he's sort of past his best and I don't want to blame one person for, you know, a bad performance, but it didn't go down well in Germany and then he had Nagelsmann getting all the pressure, he doesn't seem to know how to to deal with it and yeah, if you look at the players, they've got enough quality but they don't play as a team, it's really strange to see and they're very reminiscent of England and the way England play in terms of, they've got all this quality but they play a little bit too slow, they're sort of square pegs in round holes and you're watching them and when the result went at

• 11:39Speaker 06

  full time, after the penalty shootout, I was in disbelief as what I was watching, you're expecting these players to be able to break down, Paraguay, Paraguay are a good side in terms of defending and have that really good spirit, but with the quality that Germany had on show, they should be doing a lot better than they did.

• 12:02Speaker 03

  Yeah, I think, I mean, USA beat them 4-1 in the opening game, so I don't think anyone really saw this coming. I would, slight difference of opinion, I don't think they've got the quality across their squad that that England have got at present or anywhere like the quality that Germany have had in the past. In fact, I don't know whether you know this, but in the press conference yesterday, Kai Havertz, one of the journalists did what English journalists do, they confronted him and said that, oh, by the way, did you know Gary Lineker has said that this is the worst, this is the worst German team he's ever seen. I think actually they probably agree now, but he did that and I didn't actually

• 12:44Speaker 03

  say Germany were shisha, but what I will say, Alan, I think they were very hard done to in terms of VAR overturned for the for the Targ goal. I mean, that was not a foul on Gil, was it, Orlando Gil?

• 13:01Speaker 06

  Never, never, never a foul, not for me, Gary, I thought it was, I thought it was a really poor decision. The ref hadn't given it and he's been asked to go to the VAR and I thought because we've seen it a few times in this tournament that when they've gone to the screen, they've actually stuck to their original decision and said, "No, I'm happy with my decision." And I was, I was pretty confident that, once he'd seen that on the, on the screen, then I would, I would have thought, he would have gone, "No, there wasn't enough contact to make the keeper go down." I mean, the keeper's condom, there's no doubt about it. He's felt the, felt the touch and he's thought, "Oh, I'm in trouble here, I better go down." And he's bought the foul. And I mean, it's worked for them, absolutely, but they were robbed. I thought it was a really poor decision.

• 13:44Speaker 06

  Yeah, I'd, I'd, I'd agree with, with that. And when I, when I talked about Germany being reminiscent of England, I mean, in terms of the, the way they play, I, I believe England have got better players, yeah, for sure. Yeah. But in terms of the way they move the ball, it's all a little bit too slow. You're sort of relying on a set piece that, it should have been a goal from, from Tarr. I, I totally agree on that. Not enough contact on the, the goalkeeper, for me. But Germany do have quality players, Gaz. They, they, they really, they really do. Maybe not as good as England, but if you go through their starting 11, Brown's as good as anyone, young, young, young left-back, is, is, is really good. Obviously, Rudiger, what, what he's done in the game, really

• 14:27Speaker 06

  good experience. Tarr's gone to Bayern Munich, been really successful. He's been one of the best defenders in, in the German league. And then you've got Kimmich, who I actually want him to play in centre mid rather than, than, than right back. You've got two exciting young players in Wirtz and, and Musiala in there. Havertz always scores a, a, a goal. Sané let me down by his, his, his standards. I don't think we've seen the same Sané since City days, really. I mean, he was, he was electric. But I was a little bit disappointed in what they showed on the night. And not just the night, throughout the, the tournament.

• 15:08Speaker 03

  Yeah. Alan was shaking his head throughout most of that.

• 15:14Speaker 06

  Yeah, I don't, I don't agree. I think- They've got the quality in names and on paper, but they just didn't deliver. And you look at Sane, not a great season. Undav they had to bring in to try and give them some oomph in and around the penalty area. Verts has had a terrible season at Liverpool, he hasn't performed again in this World Cup. So it's alright saying they've got the quality, but the quality wasn't there. We've seen them put seven past Courtois. Well, that's alright, but when it really mattered, the quality wasn't there at all.

• 15:44Speaker 03

  I mean, it's a German team that's actually finally lost a World Cup penalty shootout. I mean, wow, what a shootout it was. I mean, we've said many times, particularly in this World Cup where there's so many games, I think they should go straight to penalties at the end of normal time. Because the players are going to be exhausted enough by the end of this anyway, particularly in the heat. I imagine it was really hot there in Boston if it's anything like it is in New York today and it's only up the road. But it was quite the penalty shootout, they probably should have gone straight to it. And only perhaps have extra time for the final, that's my view.

• 16:18Speaker 06

  Yeah, I agree with that. I think it was a really, really poor game in terms of standards. But I mean, it was a lesson in how to defend, how to be tight and compact, get everyone around the ball. But as much as it was a poor game, it was a great story at the end for Paraguay because they deserved it. They worked incredibly hard, they stuck together, they had to defend for their lives at times. And I mean, it was an amazing story. It was, I mean, I thought they were going to blow it because of the two penalties that they'd missed and I'm thinking, no, they can't miss three on the spin. But then the man of the match put the penalty in and that was a great story in itself.

• 16:57Speaker 03

  And the goalkeeper was pretty heroic as well, Orlando Gil. It was a very exciting finale particularly for Paraguay. But Nagelsmann, I suspect, will be under severe pressure now. I wouldn't be at all surprised, I've got a little feeling that we might see Jürgen Klopp as the next, I don't know, it's just a...

• 17:18Speaker 06

  Has he just signed a new contract?

• 17:20Speaker 03

  Has he? Oh, right, maybe it's a bad hunch then.

• 17:24Speaker 03

  Yeah, but so did Steve Clark, didn't he? So, contracts don't mean that much, do they? I think in Germany, having worked with Thomas Hitzelsberger tonight and the feeling... I thought he was very good, by the way, Micah. I thought he was very good, Thomas. Yes, I thought he was excellent, gave some really good insight and...

• 17:44Speaker 06

  He was saying if they lose today, that's probably Nagelsmann done, you know, which is going to be interesting to see. Um, I'm really worried where German sort of football is going from here. You could always rely on the Germans to be strong, to work hard, to have quality. And you just didn't see enough of that tonight. But I think, I think we've got to look at the overall context though. We've seen in this competition, it is very hard to break down a low block, isn't it?

• 18:19Speaker 03

  Always has been.

• 18:20Speaker 06

  As much as we're criticizing Germany, we have to give Paraguay a lot of credit for the way they perform, especially when you don't have the balls for large parts of the game and you've got to work and you've got to go up and back and you've got to be aggressive and organized. Yes, they got a better look with a goal that should have been, but they fully deserve it. And not to throw it to England, but that worries me now going into DR Congo on Wednesday because teams are getting results playing that way. England certainly need, you know, an early goal in that game.

• 18:59Speaker 03

  Okay, so thanks very much, Micah. Thanks, Alan. We'll let you both go now. Their reward, Paraguay's reward is a next round tie against either France or Sweden. I suspect it might be France, which might be a bit tougher. I think France might work a way of beating low blocks. Cheers, guys.

• 19:40Speaker 04

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• 21:24Speaker 03

  Excellent victory for Paraguay. Slightly fortuitous, I think, with one or two decisions, but regardless of that, I thought they defended to organize. I mean, you know what it's like to have to defend at times. I mean, very impressive, wasn't it?

• 21:36Speaker 07

  Yeah, definitely. I think that's been one of the things of the tournament, to be honest. I think, for me, I think some of the teams are getting overlooked and I think it's just expected that the top teams are just automatically going to win. And I don't think that's the case and I think that's a less...

• 21:48Speaker 03

  Do you think it's leveled up a bit?

• 21:50Speaker 07

  100%. And I think a lot of people see the top teams and they'll say, "Oh, Germany underperformed", but is it that or is it that the rest of the world have developed, got better? And I think they fully deserved the win, to be honest. The way they worked as a...

• 22:00Speaker 05

  Collective and that's the thing and I've learnt this under Emma you can have amazing individuals if you don't work as a team you don't work as a unit you're not going to win. Do you know what coaching in this hemisphere there's CONCACAF which is largely the Caribbean nations then CONMEBOL which is Latin American nations playing against them I think sometimes we have like a Eurocentric attitude towards football like the top nations are there and having competed against the likes of Paraguay Brazil these nations will fight to the death it's exceptional.

• 22:35Speaker 03

  Paraguay probably France we expect France to beat Sweden I mean they've got some firepower they're tough but I mean brilliant effort from Paraguay.

• 22:45Speaker 06

  Yeah brilliant effort from Paraguay I mean I've played against South American players South American players are my favourite players to play with and I hated playing against them because of that saying really they're aggressive so it's surprising that us Europeans don't you know we sometimes we're going to turn up and turn them over but I think the French will be too much from Gaza I think the only problem I get I think the French if the first time they play say for instance they I don't think they're going to get massively tested massively tested until they play against a Spain or something like that and I wonder whether Deschamps because he's got so many options in the front line if he I think if he puts another midfielder in I think they'll be more suited but they've got so many options how can you leave out Douay Barca Loeb Bape then Ballez Chirky you've

• 23:30Speaker 06

  got to really leave two out of.

• 23:32Speaker 05

  Do you think do you think when they're playing against a team that is more than you know happy to be without the ball and sit low and have a block of five do you think that much like it did in Senegal in that first 45 minutes do you think that France has that way of breaking a team down if they don't have the transition spaces?

• 23:52Speaker 06

  Well they've got Chirky haven't they do I think it's the best in the country in the world.

• 23:56Speaker 05

  Better than Kimares because I think he's up there right now for Brazil.

• 24:00Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think they'll beat Paraguay, but you've got to take your out to the Paraguayans for beating the Germans and I'm just happy the Germans are out. It's alright to say that, Gazza.

• 24:08Speaker 03

  They've got to beat Sweden first. The first big game today was Japan against Brazil, obviously having played two seasons in the J-League. I have a strong affinity with Japan and my son, producer Harry, was actually born there. Yeah, Brazil managed to turn that around. I was actually quite surprised that the Japanese haven't played with a relatively low block because they're very good at keeping the ball, but it's hard to do that over 100 metres away from the other goal.

• 24:36Speaker 05

  Let me ask you this question then. For a nation that has a 100-year manifesto, Ange told me about this this week. Why do they play with such fear?

• 24:50Speaker 03

  That's a good question because the whole ethos in Japan and the whole way of thinking is the samurai warriors and we're really bold and brave.

• 24:58Speaker 05

  So what's missing then?

• 24:59Speaker 03

  I mean, the playing in the low block, that's...

• 25:01Speaker 05

  They went 1-0 up.

• 25:02Speaker 03

  I know.

• 25:03Speaker 05

  And instantly stopped going player for player.

• 25:05Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 25:06Speaker 05

  Went into a low defensive situation. What is it within their culture?

• 25:10Speaker 06

  Too humble, Em. I think it's humility because Japanese are very humble people, aren't they? And I think sometimes in football, the best teams have got a little bit of swagger about them. And I think if they would have been a bit more braver today, they could have stepped on to Brazil.

• 25:24Speaker 05

  It was disappointing though, Joe. You know why? Because I think they are good enough to beat Brazil.

• 25:28Speaker 03

  When they're trailing, and I saw it in a previous game, and they had to go for it. They looked so much better because they can pass it, they can move it, and they had a real go and tried to score goals and turned a match or two around. But Ange Lotti made a few changes in the second half, Millie, and it worked again. He's got that, isn't he? He's got a bit of something about him.

• 25:48Speaker 07

  Yeah, listen, everyone always questions managers' decisions. She knows it more than anyone.

• 25:52Speaker 03

  You used to question them all the time, hadn't you?

• 25:54Speaker 05

  Yeah, permanently.

• 25:54Speaker 07

  What are you doing?

• 25:55Speaker 05

  And you win and you're the best in the world, right?

• 25:58Speaker 07

  Exactly. But listen, you have to have belief within your own camp, your own team, your own decisions. And I do think Brazil just have that edge and that grit, and I think that's what Joe's on about. You've got to be a little bit dirty and a little bit gritty sometimes. Football ain't always pleasant, we've won many a trophies, been.

• 26:13Speaker 05

  Yeah, I liked how calm he was on the touchline though.

• 26:16Speaker 03

  He always is, isn't he?

• 26:17Speaker 07

  I think he was the only one that was calm.

• 26:18Speaker 03

  Just the little eyebrow might have gone up a little bit.

• 26:21Speaker 05

  Did you hear what he said post-game about when he was asked why he didn't celebrate? And he was like out of respect for a team that had suffered and endured and had performed really well. He empathised with their pain.

• 26:34Speaker 03

  You know Carlo, he played for him, he's a lovely human being.

• 26:37Speaker 06

  Lovely human being. The first time I met Carlo was, not the first time I met him, he coached us. Then he had a dinner in Chelsea and I was late for the dinner. I didn't even have to drive to dinner, but I was late for dinner. The first time the manager was asking me to be somewhere. And there's a table next to him and all the lads were sitting round. I thought, oh fuck, I've got to sit next to the gaffer for two hours here and I'm late. Oh shit. So anyway, I just sat down. He just got the bottle of limoncello out and started feeding me shots.

• 27:07Speaker 05

  Good man.

• 27:08Speaker 06

  And he's like, don't worry, you're fine. By the end of the night, we're like best friends.

• 27:13Speaker 03

  You've tipped Brazil, yeah, he's great.

• 27:15Speaker 06

  He's brilliant.

• 27:15Speaker 03

  You've tipped Brazil.

• 27:16Speaker 06

  I've tipped Brazil.

• 27:17Speaker 03

  Still happy with that?

• 27:18Speaker 06

  Still happy and because of Carlo. Because I think with the hydration stroke advertisement breaks that we got, I think that's just.

• 27:26Speaker 05

  So I get to talk, Paul, don't you? Anyway, no, I'm kidding. You're right about that. It gives the top coaches the opportunities to be able to influence the game, right?

• 27:36Speaker 06

  Millia tell you, like the amount of time in the game, it's not going the way you want to. And the manager, no matter how good they are, they can be on the side and they can be arms and up. But you've got to work it out as a group of players. And all you want to do is go, shit, we need the game to stop now. And the manager will come in and go, right, you do that, you do that, you need to do better at that. And then the rhythm of the game changes. And that's what's going to happen at this World Cup. We've seen it already.

• 27:59Speaker 05

  The beautiful thing is, Joe, is just that you've got so many analysts, they deliver clips regardless. You know what, the hydration break, we can have a million conversations, it's the coaches' break.

• 28:11Speaker 06

  Yeah, yeah.

• 28:11Speaker 05

  It's our opportunity for two or three clips to be able to say.

• 28:15Speaker 03

  Would you like that in the World Cup?

• 28:18Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, as a coach.

• 28:19Speaker 03

  As a coach. What about as a fan of the game? Somebody who's watching the game because it drives me mad.

• 28:23Speaker 05

  I hate it. I hate every minute of it, even if I've like gone from chokes to magnets in the last week. I genuinely believe that

• 28:33Speaker 03

  We should have brought some info here, I'm sorry.

• 28:35Speaker 05

  I don't want to offend anyone at home, I don't want to disrupt anyone.

• 28:38Speaker 03

  You definitely won't do that.

• 28:39Speaker 05

  What I think about with that is, you love it if the momentum's against you. You hate it if the momentum's for you. So, and I actually had a look at these things. The ball has been in play more this World Cup than any other point. And I think that's because, in some part, players can't kill the game as much. Because as we know with VAR being quicker, you get sped up.

• 29:09Speaker 03

  They've been on the throw-ins as well, yeah.

• 29:10Speaker 05

  It's been amazing.

• 29:11Speaker 03

  The refs have let the game go a bit as well.

• 29:13Speaker 05

  That's been the best part.

• 29:14Speaker 03

  That's been the best thing about this World Cup. And VAR have not got involved too much. The refs are letting it flow, they're not whistling every time someone touches it.

• 29:22Speaker 05

  And they're so good.

• 29:23Speaker 03

  Screens on the floor. They now play Ivory Coast or Norway, that'll be a good test, wouldn't it?

• 29:32Speaker 07

  Yeah, I think every game's been a good test for everyone. And I think there's probably a lot of results that have not gone the way things want to go. But that's why I think the media are a little bit harsh. And I think they're straight on at people and, "Oh, they're not performing, these need to be better."

• 29:46Speaker 03

  You're talking about us, me and John.

• 29:49Speaker 07

  No, you guys are all right. But no, having been a player, like when we won the Euros 2022, our first game was Austria. Old Trafford, you know, opening the tournament, massive moment, we only won 1-0. And straight away, we've just won the first game of the tournament, you know, three points is amazing in your first game. It's what you need, clean sheet. Straight away you're in the media, "Oh, are you happy with the performance? Struggled a little bit?" I'm like, what was about winning?

• 30:13Speaker 03

  I think every country's probably the same. You all think we should have this divine right just to batter everyone.

• 30:19Speaker 07

  Yeah, and it's not the way.

• 30:21Speaker 03

  I mean, it ain't like that, it's hard. World Cups are hard, that's for sure. But I've just heard in my ear that Morocco have beaten Netherlands in the penalty shootout. And that means Morocco play Canada in the next round. So congratulations to Morocco. Amazing.

• 30:41Speaker 03

  That's it for this episode of The Rest Is Football. We'll be back in a few days' time and discussing England of course. But for now, goodbye from me.

• 30:58Speaker 03

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