England struggle in Ghana stalemate and Ronaldo gets off the mark

England's second group game curse struck again as they laboured to a 0-0 draw with Ghana in Boston. Gary Lineker is joined by Micah Richards, Harry Maguire, Joe Cole and Patrick Vieira for reaction to a disappointing performance from Thomas Tuchel's side. There's also a look at Cristiano Ronaldo joining the party as he scored twice in Portugal's 5-0 win over Uzbekistan. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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• 4:07Speaker 03

  Hello and welcome to The Rest Is Football. On today's show, I'm going to be talking about England's draw against Ghana. Let's not get too downbeat just yet. I'll be talking with Harry Maguire, Patrick Vieira, who was 50 yesterday, also Joe Cole and Micah Richards. So lots to discuss and don't forget, as always, if you want to watch the show, you can catch it on Netflix every day.

• 4:36Speaker 03

  Less impressive perhaps were England. I wouldn't read too much into this game personally. Jude Bellingham said the following after the game: "It was very frustrating, second game fever, same as always. Important for us, and you guys, not to get too negative. No worries, no stress, no drama. Stay positive. Not the end of the world." I would agree with that. I think when he's saying "you guys as well", I think he's obviously referring to the media, to us and to England fans, because I think we all care about the result and it wasn't a great performance. But you can't play well every game and the time not to do too well is in the group stage when you can't do too much damage. And England are through,

• 5:19Speaker 03

  so there's actually reason to celebrate in a way, Jack.

• 5:22Speaker 05

  He's spot on. And listen, the World Cup don't start until the last 16 for me, because the way Thomas Tuchel is going to set his team up, he's not going to have teams... If we play France, Brazil, Portugal, Spain, anyone, that's not a problem we're going to have to solve, because they're going to want to have the ball. The main thing was the performance of Croatia, another good side, when it becomes a sort of physical game and a physical battle, we could overrun them. And that's how we'll win games. So I agree with him there. It's always going to be a problem, especially if you leave Cole Palmer and Phil Foden at home and you don't have someone like Kobe Maynor in there who could maybe go and get on the ball and handle it and give you that little bit of magic. So that was always going to be a bit of a problem. And we could have won it. Harry Kane puts that in the top corner.

• 6:06Speaker 05

  We're on a train, but no worries at all for me. I think we're all right.

• 6:10Speaker 03

  2018, Patrick, France's second game. It was against Denmark. It was an awful game. It was 0-0, went on to win the competition. Obviously, four years ago, Argentina lost to Saudi Arabia in their opening game. But you're going to have the odd day when it doesn't quite work for you, particularly probably playing against a low block. It's quite tricky at times.

• 6:31Speaker 06

  It is tricky and they didn't lose the game. And of course, after that first game, we expected a little bit more of energy. But you have to give a credit to Ghana. I think they were quite well organised. They were really difficult to play against. And they were quite really frightening in the counter, and they had a couple of chances. And I just felt that...

• 6:55Speaker 06

  You know, you after the game have the feeling that he is a step back from England. He's not. I think, and I still believe that England will be in the semi-final and maybe in the final, because I think this is a really good side. And they face a team where maybe they didn't find the keys, they didn't find the way to score that goal. But they will learn from that game. There's still a long way to go. They will learn from that game. And I believe that the manager will come with a solution if they're facing another team organized like Ghana. There will be a different approach and maybe different players on the field. Because when he brings Saka on at the end, I think he brings something different than Madweke.

• 7:36Speaker 06

  So I'm not worried about England's performance today.

• 7:41Speaker 05

  Yeah, Joe's absolutely right. In terms of players, yes, we don't want to talk about players who are not there. But we knew, we knew full well that we was gonna face some teams that deploy a low block. And that's where you need players who can unlock doors. So Joe's completely right with that. And if you haven't got those players, is what I was alluding to, you need players who are gonna take people on. When Madweke was getting the ball on the right, his left foot was playing on the right hand side. So the space was down the side, but he kept going inside to where all the players were. The one time he went on the left hand side and went down the wing and crossed it in, it was brilliant.

• 8:26Speaker 05

  And the same when he was on the right hand side and he went down with his right foot and crossed it in. It just gave the team a different impetus. And I just feel like Alves right in his interview when he said, "We moved the ball a little bit too slow." And I'm not impassioned because I want England to do so well. If you go to Croatia, it was two different tactics. You have Croatia who were pressing you, they was playing around the place. And the reason why Madweke plays is because he's a good runner and the same with Gollan on the other side. But that's not always going to be the case. If I was looking at England and how they set up, I know exactly what they're gonna do now. They're basically gonna have four at the back and then they're gonna have Anderson come receive the ball. And then who's looking for that whip pass over the top for the runners.

• 9:12Speaker 05

  But it's so easy to figure out. As soon as they went into the low block, it's like, okay, yep.

• 9:16Speaker 03

  Take us on now, what more have you got? And I just feel though, we're gonna need to improve. This is not me panicking or being reactionary, getting over the top. It's nothing, a case of that, it's just, we knew we was gonna have these games. And that, to me, was like a Southgate performance. And why I'm disappointed is because of the fact that after Croatia game, you said it yourself Patrick, energy. There was no energy, it looked like they had that. And today, they just went away from what was so impressive in that first game against Croatia, even though the systems were different. I'd hate to hear when you are panicking.

• 9:57Speaker 03

  Harry, if you're in a low block, playing as a low block, which you've obviously done in your career many times, I'm sure, what is it that you don't want the opposition to do?

• 10:06Speaker 05

  You don't want them to, I always think when you're playing a low block, everyone's obsessed with the word, patient, be patient, keep the ball, be patient. But you've got to be direct, you've got to move it fast. You can fall into a trap of playing safe, safe, pass, pass, pass. And then eventually someone tries it after 25 passes, when you could have done the same thing after five passes. The last 15 minute, we weren't patient. That's when we was at our best. We were direct, we were getting the ball wide, putting crosses in, bodies in the box, picking up the second ball, keeping them in there, attack, attack, attack. That wasn't patient, but I feel like everyone gets, when you're playing against a low block, everyone talks about being patient and keeping the ball side to side. But our best football, no doubt, coming the last 10 minutes of the first half, the last 10 minutes of the second half.

• 10:50Speaker 05

  And that wasn't patient football, that was direct, getting the ball wide, Rashid putting crosses in, Nico filling the box from left back. So I think you can fall into a trap of playing safe and not being brave enough and taking that pass.

• 11:02Speaker 03

  If you're playing against a team in a low block, Patrick, do you think perhaps it's best to have right footers on the right and left footers on the left to go outside or not?

• 11:10Speaker 06

  It all depends the type of forwards that you have. Do you have somebody who's really strong and wants the ball in the air? So you can put winger with the right foot and deliver inside the box. It all depends the profile of the number nine that you have. I suppose that if he played... With Madweke on the right hand side, maybe he wanted Madweke to come inside and to combine because of Kane profile of players but obviously they didn't find the solution to do it. Of course you have Rodgers in the midfield who is quite good as well, you have Eze who came on I think who has different quality.

• 11:48Speaker 06

  I just believe that when you play with a deep block like that, you may not need three midfielders in this kind of same profile. You may have one a little bit more creative, one who maybe had more last pass, more creativity in the last 30 yards because I think there were lack of decision making, quality decision making in the last 30 yards.

• 12:14Speaker 05

  I think he was too slow to make, he should have done that, what Patrick was saying, he should have done it at half time. Got Rodgers on or Eze, maybe took Rice or Anderson off, have one sitter, then you can have two tens, you got nice possession of the ball, so you could have Bellingham and Rodgers for instance being the dual tens and then one can go out and support where the ball is and you can overload with a fullback and a winger, so you've got enough bodies out there to get the cross in and the other one then has got the responsibility getting in the box, the other left back's got to get in the box.

• 12:42Speaker 06

  Maybe it takes a bit longer to do it because I think he was really taking into consideration the quality of Ghana in counter attack because obviously losing Bellingham and losing...

• 12:52Speaker 03

  The draw is actually okay.

• 12:53Speaker 06

  The draw is not a bad result.

• 12:54Speaker 03

  I think you're absolute.

• 12:56Speaker 05

  That's what Patrick's...

• 12:57Speaker 06

  Because if you make the changes early you could lose the game but I think the draw is not a bad result.

• 13:03Speaker 03

  Talking about the counter attack, there was one at the end, I mean, boy that was a penalty.

• 13:08Speaker 05

  Don't look good for Konstantin, that pitch.

• 13:10Speaker 03

  I mean, that was, I mean crikey, they didn't seem to even really bother about it at all.

• 13:15Speaker 05

  From a technical point of view, that tackle, he got to the wrong side of him Konstantin, he's gone with a, Harry knows better than anyone, I feel like he's gone desperate, it's his first, let me talk about first World Cup, first big game, big games in your career and he's gone with the wrong leg and he was very, very lucky because Al was absolutely spot on, if the ref would have given it, he wouldn't have not give it, do you know what I mean?

• 13:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, Harry, I mean as a defender there you'd think, oh oh, wouldn't you?

• 13:40Speaker 06

  Yeah, I think he'll probably watch it back and see that he's got away with it to be honest. No, they was good on the counter attack, they had a couple of good counter attacks, I think that would...

• 13:49Speaker 03

  Away with a point and I think they'll look back at it and they'll think in the grand scheme of things we drew our second game against USA in the last World Cup and we was in the changing room, we was disappointed but we knew that was in control of the group. You go and play your third game, you win the game and everything's forgotten about and you go on to the knockout. So I don't think they'll be too downbeat. I think a few lads will be disappointed probably with their individual performances. But as a group and a collective, I'm sure tomorrow will be a new day and they'll just look forward to Panama and getting a win. My way of thinking about this is that you're not going to play too many teams once you get to the knockout stage to play a really low block like that. You might get teams that want to play on the counter attack to a degree. I also think that you're going

• 14:31Speaker 03

  to have performances in a tournament, you can't play well every single game. If you're going to have them, have them in the group stage. It's not too bad. Also, England are through to the knockout stage. There's no real negatives to this, other than the fact that it was a slightly dispiriting performance. And the other downside, I want to ask you, Micah, because it looked like, I mean, I know you were doing BBC's coverage and talking after the game and there was an image of Deton Rice walking down the tunnel with his calf strapped up and quite heavily limping. If he doesn't make it for the next game or two, what's the most likely replacement? Or does he have a little rethink about things? Maybe a little rethink. I think Joe mentioned it, I think it might be Pat actually,

• 15:16Speaker 03

  about Kobe Mayne. I think he's someone who's played at this level, done really well. Maybe you can put Anderson further up or just maybe Morgan Rogers. Stay with Anderson there, Morgan Rogers and Jude Bellingham. I think against Panama, it's going to be pretty much similar to how Ghana set up in that low block. They worked really well. Panama actually had a go, Micah, in the game against Croatia, but I had a sense that might have been the game that they thought if they could get something, they'd have a chance. They could get some. Ultimately, they didn't, but yeah. Yeah, ultimately, they didn't. But I think in options, the whole point and why we have to talk about players not making

• 16:00Speaker 03

  In the squad, Patrick, is not so. He's going again. Where you say, no, but this is the case where you have to say, Jordan Henderson. Jordan Henderson is in the squad. You know, if you want someone to sit in there, it's it's Maynor or Jordan Henderson, isn't it? You know, that that's the whole point. You don't you don't take people just to be there and around the, he he's got to trust him as well. So you would say someone like Jordan Henderson, that that's what you would you would be saying, but it it goes it goes back to to my point of some of the players who have have missed out. Sometimes you miss out on that little bit of of quality and Rice is is so vital to what England want to be.

• 16:40Speaker 03

  And just just going back on to your point, Gaz, just just a little bit in terms of you're not going to get that many teams who are in a low block. Argentina, the way they defend, Messi's allowed to do whatever he wants. But if you if England come up against Argentina, that will be a tough team to break down. So, yes, it's not going to be like Ghana, not they're going to have 11 men behind the ball. We we know that. They they they set up for a transition game. We did all the analysis before the game saying that. However, Argentina are are a team that you're going to have to break down too. So with higher level quality defenders, you know, so. There's a difference between, there's a difference between playing a team with high level defenders and

• 17:26Speaker 03

  they're not going to sit with four, five, nine men behind the ball, really deep in their own box. There is, I think there is a slight difference, but I totally get your point. I think Argentina are really strong. If both teams win the group and carry on through the tournament, they'll meet in the semifinals, I believe, if they win their groups.

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• 19:46Speaker 03

  I want to ask you, in terms of the midfield, what are your thoughts and the choices that Tuchel has? Obviously, we've talked about Maynu. I really like him. I think he's a footballer that... Because I think once you go deep into the tournament, we've got to be careful not to get outnumbered in midfield and you've got players that can actually really keep the ball and make little passes. Whereas, you know, Rice is more of a runner. Bellingham's a runner. I mean, he can run. They both run with the ball. Anderson's excellent on the ball, but you know, just, just keep the ball a little bit. Possession was not.

• 20:17Speaker 06

  I think it's about finding the right, the right balance.

• 20:19Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 20:20Speaker 06

  The right balance. I think this is what's going through to a manager. Of course, you still want to play, you still want to go forward, you still want to create, but at the same time, you have to think about the defensive transition as well. And I think if Rice doesn't feel well and is injured, and I think it would be good to keep him out of the last game, because you will need him for later, and is maybe the time to try playing with two holding midfielders and to have somebody as a number 10. I will go more for Rogers or Aze, who I believe have maybe a little bit more quality in the last 30 yards to even create more for, for England. This is the options that I will have in my, in my mind.

• 21:05Speaker 05

  Yeah, I think, I've played too many games for England where we've, we've been not good enough in possession, not enough creative players who can lend the ball. You know, it was, it's, I think it's been a feature of our game since, since your days in the 80s, I think so. When he picked this team too, I see why he was doing it.

• 21:21Speaker 03

  90s as well.

• 21:22Speaker 05

  90s, sorry. A little bit in the 80s, but some of the 90s.

• 21:25Speaker 03

  A bit in the 90s.

• 21:26Speaker 05

  So, but I, but when he picked the team, and you're right, we can't talk about Palmer and Foden, they're not there, but you know, in these climates, you have to handle the ball. The team that moves the ball and handles the ball, there's nothing worse than when you're playing against a team and you're outnumbered in midfield and they're lending it and they're so patient and you just can't get there. And, and I just worry for England, if we try and play this way, and we don't get it right, and we don't have enough of the ball to have a breather when we got it, we could, we could be in trouble there.

• 21:54Speaker 03

  Biggest surprise of the day, Harry Kane missing that one. And I genuinely wish he'd scored, by the way. You know, I'm only joking on that, because I want him to beat the record, I want him to score loads of goals, I want England to win the World Cup. But the one person you wanted it to land to there, Harry, it's so unlike him. Yeah. He's human. I know, he's human after all. He will, he'll be disappointed. But he won't get him down, he'll just move on, he'll go into training the next day, he'll be upbeat. I know he's, he'll probably speak in the dressing room after to the boys, telling them that there's nothing to worry about, to stay positive and things and. No, I think when you play the second game in a group stage, there's always that little bit of, you want to win the game, everyone wanted to beat Ghana, but also in the back of your mind when

• 22:37Speaker 03

  you're coming into that last 30 minutes, you're also thinking, but we can't lose this, we're still in control and they'll feel good and Achele will pick himself up, I'll back him to score against Panama, no problem. I think it's important that we give Ghana a mention for the way they defended, Harry. You know, you must have seen that and thought, they were tough, weren't they? And Carlos Kiroz, obviously an ex-coacher at Manchester United with Sir Alex way back in the day, he did a good job, he got it right tactically, didn't he? No, they were brilliant, I thought, obviously Thomas Partey like screened Harry Kane all the way through the game, didn't give him a kick really and it was tough for the lads to get between the lines and no, they was compact, they covered the spaces brilliant and I thought

• 23:20Speaker 03

  they defended the box brilliant, they defended the crosses, I don't know how many balls the centre backs headed out of the box, but no, they headed a huge amount out and they deserved the draw in the end. He's a coach you've admired for a while, isn't he, you said?

• 23:32Speaker 05

  He come into Manchester United when they were struggling in Europe, they were winning leagues, but they would go and play in Europe, they played, Fergie always played a 4-4-2, didn't he, a traditional English thing, and they always got outnumbered and he brought Carlos Kiroz in and they changed it to the 4-3-3 and they got that extra body and then they went on to win the Champions League and do better in Europe, go to finals, I think. Tactically, he got it right today, you have to give him his credit.

• 23:56Speaker 03

  England are up against Panama in the next game, they lost 1-0 to Croatia and I believe, thinking off the top of my head, because it's only just finished that game, that that means Panama are out, because even if they win their game, get three points, it's the first thing, it's the head-to-head and they would have lost to Croatia. So therefore, which is, you know, this should be a little bit demoralised going into that game, it's a game England should probably win comfortably. How does he, what does he do, does he make a lot of changes or? Al reckons he'd make four changes, I think he said in his piece there with Rob. Yeah, I think they'll want to win the group and they'll want to win the game for sure. I think it'll probably help that Panama are out and they'll probably not sit in as much and they'll come out and probably try and make it an entertaining game.

• 24:42Speaker 03

  But no, for sure, I think they'll be preparing to win the game.

• 24:46Speaker 05

  I think, obviously coming off the back of a draw against Ghana, they'll not want another disappointing result, they'll not want another draw or scrape over the line, they'll want to come out all guns blazing and I'm sure he'll pick his 11 what he thinks. I think it probably will look more like the 11 that finished the game rather than that started the game. Just because I felt like that looked a better balance against a lower blocked team and I'm sure he'll think the same as he's a top manager. Micah, thoughts on the line-up?

• 25:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, I would make changes certainly. I would definitely start Rashford now. If Saka's fit, I would go with Saka. I would actually give Watkins a run out. I feel as though as you go deeper into the tournament, you've got to get the strikers firing as well, maybe give Harry Kane a little bit of a rest. I would go with Rogers as well, I'd probably give June.

• 25:42Speaker 05

  Hang on, I'm going to interrupt you here Micah. You just begged Harry Kane to score at the top of the show. When you called me a twat. You called me a twat.

• 25:55Speaker 06

  When the game's nice and open, give Harry a rest, get him on for the last 30 minutes, score a hat-trick, jobs are good. I would make wholesale changes.

• 26:04Speaker 05

  I agree with you. You've got strikers, there's these lads like Tony and Watkins on the bench, they go in there, they're probably the only ones in the squad that know there's no chance if Harry Kane's got a pulse, he's starting, right? So they know that their job is to come off the bench, this is the only opportunity you're going to get to play, you start one of them or two of them, you've got to play one of them to get them involved in the tournament. Because strikers, you know, they have a bit of an ego, as we've seen with the running order of this whole show over the last six weeks. So, do you know what I mean Meeks? So you've got to get them.

• 26:38Speaker 03

  He's two weeks in and he's started. Two weeks into the show and he's started.

• 26:42Speaker 05

  Harry Kane won't want a rest, no chance. No, of course you never want to rest. The group's not done.

• 26:47Speaker 03

  They'll want to win the game.

• 26:49Speaker 06

  I think he is as well the type of player that more he play and better he is physically. So you don't want to take him off. There is no way. I think England will need to make some changes.

• 27:00Speaker 03

  Yeah, of course.

• 27:01Speaker 06

  Even for the one on the bench who kind of feel like they are part of it. But I reckon is the one that I believe that is not going to touch.

• 27:07Speaker 03

  A little bit, a little bit like obviously other strikers in this competition. Cristiano Ronaldo being one of those. He's obviously faced a bit of criticism after the first game. He came in today and I thought, you know, he just showed you what a mentality monster he is. Got two goals early. His movement for the first goal was classic Ronaldo. He's as good as anyone I've seen at finding a yard in the box. Even at 41, he can like sprint for a few yards. The second was a brilliant finish as well. You've got to take your cap. I mean, what an extraordinary individual. Six World Cups and he scored in every single one of them. Not bad eh?

• 27:44Speaker 05

  Extraordinary footballer. Like I said, the only person I think who can stand next to him is Pele and Messi. You know, it's unfortunate he's in the same era as Messi. Maybe he's fortunate because they've been pushing each other. He's still got five, 10 yards bursts and he's playing in a hell of a team. And that's the only question, Mike, you think, can he play every minute for seven, is it eight games for the whole tournament? Can he play every minute? And I'm just thinking, if I was, we had the conversation, Pat, I mean, if I'm Portugal manager, you've got to find a way of, like, is he going to play the next game? Probably they need a result. You know, that means he's going to start every game. He's 41. I mean, I don't know.

• 28:22Speaker 03

  It's amazing. I mean, actually, he scored his first World Cup was 2006. You know, you get this thing, don't you? If you say Messi's a better player, the Ronaldo fans, they absolutely go for you and vice versa to a degree. And, you know, I've said many times that I think Messi's the best player ever. It does not mean I don't think Cristiano Ronaldo is one of the all-time great footballers. But it's almost so tribal, those two, because of that head-to-head over so many years, Micah. Oh, it's ridiculous. I did some social media the other day and there was, it was named the best player from each country. So before I went...

• 29:03Speaker 06

  Oh, Argentina, Messi. And then two down was Portugal. And I, I wanted to say Betina, and I think I did say Betina. Actually, but I changed it because I don't want the Ronaldo fans in my DMs. I've had enough.

• 29:17Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 29:18Speaker 06

  I love Ronaldo.

• 29:19Speaker 03

  We all do.

• 29:20Speaker 06

  I've told many times, he's one of the hardest players I've ever played against. But, you know, Messi, Messi's Messi, right?

• 29:27Speaker 03

  Exactly, that's what I think. In fact, one of the players against him today was Karimov. And he wasn't born when Ronaldo played in his first World Cup. And neither, of course, was Lamine Yamal. I mean, what a career, Patrick.

• 29:42Speaker 06

  No, I think he deserved the full respect of all of us. We, he, he's going through a difficult period where he didn't score goals. But when you look at through his career, from what he was doing in Portugal, in England, in Spain, he's just there with the best. He's not at the same level than, than Messi. Messi's in a different planet, but he deserved a huge, huge respect.

• 30:06Speaker 03

  He does, and still doing it at 41 years old, extraordinary.

• 30:12Speaker 03

  That's it for this episode of The Rest Is Football. We'll be back in a few days' time when England start winning. But for now, goodbye from me.

• 31:09Speaker 04

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