Episode 7: Donna

Donna reveals she received a secret letter from Ray after Rosslyn's death. The then teenager tells Hedley and Karina that she didn't give it to police when they came to her home with a search warrant. Donna recalls how the letter "freaked her out" and regrets not handing it over. Donna asks herself whether things might have turned out differently if she and others had "not fought for Ray" had they known about his lies at the time. Back in Bendigo, Rex tells Hedley and Karina why the inscription on the headstone of Rosslyn's grave infuriates him. Subscribers hear new episodes of The Poisoned Wife first. Listen atthepoisonedwife.com https://www.theaustralian.com.au/topics/the-poisoned-wife-podcast, in The Australian’s app or search for The Poisoned Wife on Apple Podcasts to connect your subscription. Join the conversation and hear more from Hedley Thomas inThe Poisoned Wife Podcast Official Discussion Group https://www.facebook.com/groups/thepoisonedwifepodcast/ on Facebook Do you know more? Contact the team at [email protected] mailto:[email protected] See omnystudio.com/listener https://omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Listeners are advised that this podcast contains coarse language and adult themes. The Poisoned Wife is a podcast investigation brought to you by me, Headley Thomas and The Australian. Subscribers to The Australian hear episodes first on The Australian's app at thepoisonedwife.com and Apple Podcasts.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Every single piece of paper I got about this case you have now got.

• 0:39Speaker 02

  You would have known that she would have died a really painful death.

• 0:43Speaker 03

  She always wanted to be a mother, always.

• 0:47Speaker 04

  I didn't do it. I had nothing to do with Rosalind's death.

• 0:51Speaker 02

  I was a 16-year-old girl who had a crush on an older married man. I just think it's all so cruel.

• 1:00Speaker 00

  How would you have been trying to protect him?

• 1:10Speaker 00

  Sometimes the best-laid plans in journalism can go awry and you can question whether those plans were just wishful thinking in the first place. On a chilly morning, a month before the first episode in this podcast series, Karina Berger and I stood at the front door of Donna and Alex's home. In a lengthy, off-the-record conversation in this home the night before, we had answered Donna's questions while explaining our commitment to this long unsolved case. We told her about the research that we had done already, the brief of evidence that we had studied, the interviews we'd done, and how we had spoken to her mother, Glenys,

• 1:52Speaker 00

  and stepfather Ralph, from whom Donna has been estranged for many years. And at the end of the night, Donna agreed to be interviewed by us the next morning. She would talk about the girl she was in 1986, about her friend Rosalind and Roz's husband, Ray McQueen, and a murder investigation in which Donna became one of the suspects. Karina and I knew it would be a difficult morning. We came four-armed with microphones, laptops, a mental checklist of topics and questions, and cakes from the local cafe.

• 2:31Speaker 00

  But nobody answered the front door. We tried again and nobody came. Had Donna changed her mind? I was starting to fear the worst. Finally, her husband Kevin opened the door. He looked happy to see us. He and Donna hadn't heard the knocking. They'd lost track of the time. They were at the back of their property, in their special place, feeding their pet ducks in a beautiful garden with man-made ponds. They built all of this as a memorial to their baby daughter. Tragically, she had drowned in this home while in the bath with her sister.

• 3:11Speaker 02

  So the roots of a grass come down to about here?

• 3:14Speaker 03

  Oh yeah, I see.

• 3:15Speaker 02

  And it's just growing there?

• 3:16Speaker 03

  Yeah, it's quite incredible.

• 3:17Speaker 02

  It's amazing.

• 3:18Speaker 03

  It's a little micro system, isn't it? Yeah, a little succulent. That's nice.

• 3:24Speaker 03

  Well, your duck's beautiful.

• 3:27Speaker 00

  Donna and Kevin offered us refreshments and guided us to the kitchen table. Testing one, two. So how's that going? That's picking everything up?

• 3:36Speaker 03

  Yep, this is going.

• 3:37Speaker 00

  And Donna, just so you know, we haven't come with a structured, prepared list of questions. We just want to make it as relaxed as possible because we know you are anxious about this. A small part of our interview with Donna was published near the end of episode one. There is a lot more. By 9:30 AM, our small talk was over. First of all, I just wanted to thank you for agreeing to see us at such short notice and take this step because I know it's difficult. Out of the blue, we've come to see you 40 years after Roz died. Probably the last thing you were expecting.

• 4:16Speaker 00

  We would record with Donna and Kevin for almost four hours. When we had almost run out of questions about her reflections on 1986 and Roz and Ray McQueen, Donna shared something which stayed with us long after we had left their place. Here's what she shared.

• 4:36Speaker 02

  As time has gone on, from that time, I have slowly developed a kind of interesting karma, I guess. Different things that have not been great that's happened in our life, I felt could be a karmic debt paid because of I did this to her.

• 4:58Speaker 03

  Oh, that's a terrible burden, Donna.

• 5:02Speaker 02

  Our daughter was 14 months old when she died.

• 5:08Speaker 00

  In her grief, Donna has attributed the loss of her baby girl to Donna's teenage connection to Ray 40 years ago. In Donna's mind, the universe has somehow punished her for the death of Roz and Roz's unborn baby, Christopher.

• 5:24Speaker 02

  And I felt that was a penance because she lost her child.

• 5:30Speaker 00

  Donna was momentarily distracted when their baby Taylor fell backwards in the bath she was having with her toddler sister. There was just 20 centimetres of water in the bath, but that was all it took.

• 5:45Speaker 02

  And that was my payment for my part in that, was that I lose mine as well.

• 5:54Speaker 00

  You need to stop blaming yourself.

• 5:57Speaker 02

  I concur, Donny.

• 5:59Speaker 00

  Donna rarely returns to Bendigo and the rural community of Lockwood. She left those places behind more than 30 years ago. Donna spoke of her shock after Ray was charged with Rosalind's murder, at a time when she believed in the life insurance salesman who wanted her to come and live with him. And Donna believed Ray's story that Roz had cancer. Donna remembered the last serious conversation she had with Ray when Roz was alive. It was at tennis on the Monday evening, and Donna had told Ray that Roz was concerned about a divorce.

• 6:39Speaker 02

  I said to her that I'd talked to him about it, reassuring a married woman that I'll talk to her husband about if he's going to leave her or not. When you look back at it like that, that's really backwards.

• 6:54Speaker 00

  The morning after those disclosures at tennis, Roz was dead.

• 7:00Speaker 02

  And I knew I wanted to bring it up because I knew she was really upset. We'd be hitting the tennis ball back and forth, and I can remember saying, "You do know that Roz is worried about you leaving her?" And he's like, "I couldn't afford it." And then it was just left. It was, "I couldn't afford it if I wanted to, even if I wanted to," is what he said. Just a very flippant comment.

• 7:28Speaker 03

  After tennis, you'd asked Ray if you were going back to their place to visit Roz?

• 7:34Speaker 02

  That's right. And he said, "No, she's unwell. She's too unwell."

• 7:39Speaker 03

  Did he tell you what was wrong with her?

• 7:41Speaker 02

  No. Because it wasn't like she was going to divorce him. She was scared that he was going to divorce her. That would be a word I'd put to Roz. He's vulnerable.

• 7:55Speaker 00

  What about to yourself?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 7:57Speaker 00

  You were vulnerable.

• 7:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, but I didn't see myself as that.

• 8:02Speaker 00

  Do you see yourself as that now?

• 8:04Speaker 02

  I don't know.

• 8:07Speaker 02

  It's always that grown-up in the back of your head saying, "You should have seen this."

• 8:13Speaker 02

  I didn't know what physical love was, but the bond that we had, and I will say bond, that we had, I felt was very, very strong. And I took offence to people saying that I was too young to know what real love was.

• 8:32Speaker 02

  And I think back and think, how naive were you to think that you could have this friendship with this person? And to me, that's what it was, regardless of if I secretly was attracted to him.

• 8:48Speaker 02

  I don't know if it's anxiety's passed on from one generation to another, but I know I had it at a very young age. I was a scared girl. I was always scared at school, nervous that somebody didn't like me or didn't want to play with me because my clothes weren't as nice as their clothes. Because I had a panic attack when I was in grade four or five at school and couldn't breathe.

• 9:15Speaker 00

  Nine years before Karina and I turned up at Donna's house, she was visited there by Rex Bakes. He went in 2017.

• 9:25Speaker 01

  I flew there expressly to see Donna.

• 9:29Speaker 00

  Donna wasn't forewarned about that visit either. When we met Rex in Brisbane while preparing for this podcast investigation, he told us more about it. He'd made a diary note in 2017, and it was in the suitcase.

• 9:44Speaker 01

  She answered the door and I said, "I've come to see you about Rosalind." And so she started talking about Rosalind XYZ. And I said, "No, Rosalind McQueen." So she was quite taken aback.

• 9:57Speaker 00

  Did you go in for a cup of tea?

• 10:00Speaker 01

  I was there for a long time. I could see straight away that she was guarded and her husband was there. And so if she was passing on or conundling with Ray McQueen, she wasn't perhaps very happy for her husband to hear that. I knew I was doomed, but I kept going. I sort of had to reassure her that I was who I said I was.

• 10:29Speaker 00

  What happened when you went back the next day?

• 10:32Speaker 01

  Her husband recorded the proceedings. He didn't interfere. I suppose he was wondering what's going to be said next. And that's just a few jotings I made.

• 10:47Speaker 00

  You are better at reading your handwriting than anyone else. Can you read that sentence again?

• 10:53Speaker 01

  Donna is now reflecting back on the events of 1986 and knew that eventually the death of Roz would resurface. She feels that Ray was using his office to make an alibi at the time.

• 11:11Speaker 00

  Rex and Donna were on the same page there.

• 11:15Speaker 01

  Ray doesn't want to be the first person to find his deceased wife because immediately the thought's going to go through the police's mind that you did it and there was no one else involved. So he had the perfect alibi and to reinforce that alibi, he gets Ben McKenzie to go down there so that Ray is nowhere near the scene. There's no smoking gun anywhere, he's not the first to find her. And it worked well to start off with.

• 11:50Speaker 00

  And you've written, Ray handed Donna a letter.

• 11:54Speaker 01

  Ray proposed to Donna in writing.

• 11:58Speaker 01

  And I said, where's the letter? She said, I don't have it anymore.

• 12:02Speaker 00

  Have you been back to see Donna since then?

• 12:05Speaker 01

  No way. Well, I think it would be best to leave sleeping dogs alive. If we did go back, Donna should be spoken to by a female.

• 12:18Speaker 03

  What did you know about Roz having cancer?

• 12:20Speaker 02

  I only knew that he'd told me that she had been asked to go and see a doctor after examination and told that she'd had cervical cancer.

• 12:32Speaker 03

  Did he ask you to keep that information close?

• 12:35Speaker 02

  I think he did, but I'm not sure.

• 12:39Speaker 00

  Did you form the impression that it was serious?

• 12:41Speaker 02

  Yes, but I mean, I was 16, cancer's death back then.

• 12:48Speaker 00

  Donna recalled that Ray had told her about the purported cancer in the privacy of a shed at the back of the Manalik property. Ray and Roz had come over for a visit, but Ray led Donna away from the adults to the shed. It had a snooker table. Roz was in the house with Alf and Glenys.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  And then when he told me about the cancer, I presumed she must have been up there telling mum and dad. And us being down the shed was to get me away so Roz could have the private time with mum and dad to tell them.

• 13:28Speaker 00

  Was Roz friendly to you?

• 13:30Speaker 02

  I think Roz was friendly to everybody, that was just her nature.

• 13:35Speaker 02

  Idolised Jodie, absolutely loved her. Snuggling, cuddling, but then she was very good with his children as well.

• 13:45Speaker 00

  And at this time, you've got this 16-year-old girl's secret crush on him, which you haven't disclosed to him.

• 13:53Speaker 02

  No, Rosslyn had rang my mum and asked if I could not go there so often because it was causing issues with her and Ray and their relationship. But then in the following week, she would ring my mum and ask if it was okay if I come over. My mum had said that when she rang, she said, yes, he's in a bad mood and you're the only one that can get him out of his bad moods. It sounds like a fearful woman, like, oh my God,

• 14:30Speaker 02

  I've done something and I've stuffed it up. Now I've got to try and fix it because I'm in big trouble.

• 14:38Speaker 02

  I didn't know anything of the background that was going on in their relationship and the turbulence and things like that. I'm only learning now about the impact of my presence in that house and what a negative thing it was for Rosslyn. I don't think at that age I could really believe that I would ever, as a 16-year-old girl, have an impact on an adult's relationship.

• 15:05Speaker 03

  To me, this is starting to sound like a huge red flag for your parents.

• 15:11Speaker 02

  All these things pop into your head and you try and analyse. I was laying there last night wondering, why did they not do more? Why did they not see more of what he was doing?

• 15:25Speaker 02

  And why you didn't pick things up? And if you did feel a little uncomfortable, why didn't you go the other way rather than just go with the flow?

• 15:38Speaker 00

  Donna recalled her mother's shock while talking on the phone on the evening of Tuesday, April 1, 1986.

• 15:46Speaker 02

  I hadn't been home from work very long. Mum had gotten a call and seemed quite distressed. She got off the phone and said that Roz had died. And I've just, I think I've gone, oh my God, it must have been the cancer. And that's when mum said, what? And I said, it must have been the cancer. She said, what cancer? I said, Roz had cervical cancer. They didn't even know.

• 16:15Speaker 00

  And now you know that there was no cancer.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:20Speaker 00

  I asked Donna about being a suspect in the early stages of the homicide investigation.

• 16:26Speaker 02

  They come knocking on the door and mum and dad weren't home, so I was home by myself. And they issued me a warrant to search the premises and that I was to be there when they did each room. And they did my room. They pulled all the drawers and underwear and clothes out and chucked them on the floor and did a small search of mum and dad's room, I think. And a few of the cupboards, under the sink. And then they left.

• 17:00Speaker 00

  Before Ray was charged, he had given Donna a private letter. Karina asked Donna about this.

• 17:07Speaker 03

  You had a letter from Ray in your bedroom at this time and you were surprised that the police...

• 17:16Speaker 02

  Didn't find it, yeah. There was a letter he'd written to me and I've read the letter and it was like four pages or something. One thing that really struck me was he was saying that it was almost like as soon as he met me, he knew that he had feelings for me. And straight away, I thought that was weird because I would have been 14. I've felt this way for you for the last two years or something like that. He wrote that and that was his way of letting me know how much he cared for me. That part really creeped me out a bit.

• 18:00Speaker 02

  To put in that he'd had feelings for me from such a young age.

• 18:07Speaker 00

  And the letter was given to you after Roz died?

• 18:10Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 18:11Speaker 00

  But before you understood that she'd died from strychnine, so before the police investigation?

• 18:15Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. I held on to it for a couple of years and then I made a point of getting rid of it because I needed to move forward instead of just dwelling on this thing that had impacted all our lives so much.

• 18:30Speaker 00

  Do you know why the police didn't find the letter?

• 18:33Speaker 02

  No.

• 18:34Speaker 00

  Had you concealed it somewhere?

• 18:37Speaker 02

  If I did, it was only from my parents. It would have just been up the top of my wardrobe, under some clothes.

• 18:45Speaker 00

  Do you remember now why you didn't say to the police, look, you're probably looking for something like this, I got this letter from him?

• 18:54Speaker 02

  I think I would have wanted to protect him back then and gone, oh, no, if they say this, they're going to get the wrong idea.

• 19:03Speaker 00

  Do you have any regrets now, Donna, that you didn't produce that letter to the police?

• 19:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I wish I had have. Would have shown the grooming process and how gross and sick he was. Probably means more now, like how gross that was. But it certainly had a big impact on me back then as well. Hindsight's a wonderful thing. And the feelings I was feeling back then, I think I must have been very confused. The police coming in, telling me that they think he killed his wife so he could then be with me. How stupid was I and gullible? But when you live it, you don't see it, you're just too close.

• 19:55Speaker 02

  I don't even think my parents seen it till, right till the end.

• 20:00Speaker 00

  I asked Donna whether she had protected him in any other way. Was there anything she'd withheld that might have made a difference to the strength of the evidence if she had disclosed it to the police?

• 20:13Speaker 02

  I don't think so because if there was...

• 20:18Speaker 02

  I wouldn't have to think about it and I could have just told her straight away. But I don't think so.

• 20:24Speaker 00

  He never gave you any indication that he had murdered his wife?

• 20:28Speaker 02

  No.

• 20:30Speaker 00

  He never suggested to you before Roz died that he might try and do away with her?

• 20:34Speaker 02

  No, because I would have told Mum and Dad straight away and certainly wouldn't have gone back there.

• 20:40Speaker 00

  The police were strongly of the view that Ray killed his wife because he was infatuated with you.

• 20:49Speaker 02

  I did have feelings for him beyond friendship back then in a 16-year-old's head. So that day in the car at Lake Maroon, when he said to me that he wants a permanent relationship for me to go and live with him, it just scared me.

• 21:08Speaker 03

  It was interesting when we spoke to your mum, she said he did not ask, he told us what was going to happen.

• 21:18Speaker 02

  I sat in the lounge room and did not want to be a part of that conversation at all.

• 21:24Speaker 03

  It wasn't so much a seeking of permission, but it was him saying, Donna is coming to live with me.

• 21:31Speaker 02

  But in my head, my 16-year-old head was like, he's my friend and I will stand by him. And if this is what I've got to do to stand by him, then this is what I will do.

• 21:43Speaker 00

  Early in the homicide investigation, Ray told Donna of his concern that he appeared to be Detective Senior Sergeant Ron Blackshaw's only target.

• 21:54Speaker 02

  He'd come up to work and had asked me if I could talk to him outside. We sat in his car and he said to me that they think he's killed her for the insurance. And then he pulls out a chequebook and gives it to me, he goes, look, look, look through it. I go, what do I want this for? You look, make sure. I haven't made any purchases or deposits on a boat or anything like that. He was panicked. He told me that one of his friends had overheard the police the day Roz was found say to another copper,

• 22:38Speaker 02

  I don't know if he's done it, but I'm going to get this bastard for this.

• 22:42Speaker 03

  Do you remember how you felt when he was charged?

• 22:47Speaker 02

  I was absolutely gutted that they could possibly think this.

• 22:53Speaker 02

  So sad inside. Ray and I had met a couple of times unbeknownst to anyone else. And it was just conversations on, how are you? Are you doing okay?

• 23:09Speaker 00

  But were you meeting him secretly?

• 23:11Speaker 02

  Yeah. I can remember thinking, this is my friend and he's hurting now and I need to be there for him.

• 23:20Speaker 03

  You had a really invasive medical examination, police interview statements, giving evidence at an inquest. These are not typical things for a 17-year-old girl.

• 23:31Speaker 00

  How did you feel going through that as the 17-year-old by then? The subject of lots of gossip and innuendo, people suggesting that you've been having an affair with Ray and that's why he's killed his wife Roz.

• 23:45Speaker 02

  As well as trying to write out, and police questioning and then it was going to go to trial and I was drowning.

• 23:55Speaker 03

  Did Ray ever apologise to you?

• 23:58Speaker 02

  No, because I can remember thinking, I can't believe you put me through all this and didn't even have the decency to say goodbye.

• 24:08Speaker 02

  I was very angry for a long time as well, probably for the reasons that he'd moved on and never even bothered to say goodbye. Or I'm sorry.

• 24:19Speaker 00

  Donna last saw Ray near Rosslyn's grave. That was a chance meeting a few years after Rosslyn's poisoning.

• 24:28Speaker 02

  And I'd said, how's Jodie? Is she getting the gifts that I'd sent her a Christmas and a birthday present? Yes, yes. That was when I'd come away that day thinking, you didn't even say, I am so sorry for what you went through. He'd leave flowers with a card with his name on it, like he needed people to know that it was him that placed the flowers there. I thought, this is private. This is personal, your grief for your wife. You don't need to verbalise it for other people to read.

• 25:08Speaker 00

  Kevin hoped the interview would help his wife.

• 25:11Speaker 05

  And I thank you for taking us on and trying to find justice for Roz.

• 25:19Speaker 03

  Within an hour, she was at the mortuary and declared deceased. There was no crime scene, no forensics for three months, nothing.

• 25:28Speaker 00

  They were uniform police.

• 25:29Speaker 03

  And the police didn't think that the circumstances were suspicious.

• 25:33Speaker 00

  They were not detectives.

• 25:36Speaker 03

  In an ideal world, new evidence would come out and perhaps the police would recommence an investigation. But podcasts are also powerful because they tell a story. And this story seems to have just been lost and two people lost their lives here. They shouldn't be forgotten and that story should be exposed.

• 26:00Speaker 05

  I think it's valuable for Donna to be able to talk about this. There could be things that Donna's held inside her for a very long time. And this was an opportunity for her to release that and hopefully take away some of her pain that she's been carrying around for 40 years.

• 26:17Speaker 02

  I don't think it'll ever go.

• 26:18Speaker 05

  Well, it'll probably never go, but it'll help you on your journey, you know, because we've been through so much in our lives. If we can just make one little part of that better and particularly if you contribute to something as an outcome to being just as to a deceased person.

• 26:38Speaker 02

  He's shown a history of manipulation, domestic abuse. If someone comes out of the woodwork and gives us some evidence, then I hope they nail him.

• 27:15Speaker 00

  After four hours at Donna and Kevin's house, we needed to make tracks and drive to the airport. They were just so open.

• 27:25Speaker 03

  And it's quite emotional because she's so emotional.

• 27:30Speaker 00

  She said, I was probably protecting it. I didn't give the police that note.

• 27:35Speaker 03

  Yeah, that note's interesting. So that must be the document that Rex refers to as the proposal in writing.

• 27:42Speaker 00

  Yeah.

• 27:43Speaker 03

  That she got rid of. You wonder what was in that.

• 27:50Speaker 00

  I'm glad we got that later flight.

• 27:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 27:54Speaker 00

  He's an incredibly supportive husband.

• 27:57Speaker 03

  That's the sort of husband you want. I would support her no matter her decision. And he was very caring towards her. They look like they had a really solid marriage. She was a child and she's carried this terrible guilt. My 14-month-old daughter drowned in the bath as payback for me kind of interfering in this marriage.

• 28:22Speaker 00

  We were back in Bendigo that night and talking to witnesses the next day. And we tried to talk to Ray who lives in Melbourne. We hoped he would return our calls and text messages.

• 28:35Speaker 00

  Back in the apartment on View Street, dozens of pages of paper filled with handwriting are spread across the table. These are all your letters to me, Rex.

• 28:45Speaker 01

  Oh, a bit more than that.

• 28:47Speaker 00

  I've got every one.

• 28:49Speaker 00

  As Rex keeps telling us.

• 28:51Speaker 01

  The shortest pencil was better than the longest memory.

• 28:55Speaker 00

  Rex's mood changes when we talk about dropping by the Kangaroo Flat Public Cemetery where Roz was buried.

• 29:03Speaker 01

  I've been to the cemetery. It shows this bloke. Even on a headstone that's there forever, he sticks a boot up it.

• 29:12Speaker 00

  Can you just explain why the headstone inscription offends you?

• 29:17Speaker 01

  Yes, because.

• 29:20Speaker 03

  I've got the inscription. This is from a note actually that you made some time ago, Rex. It says, "In loving memory of my darling wife, Rosslyn Joy McQueen. 19 July 1955 to 1 April 1986. Died suddenly, aged 30. Adored mother of Jodie, stepmother of Lindy and Anthony. May you find comfort and peace in the little boy you carry. Love, Ray."

• 29:47Speaker 01

  Building his alibi.

• 29:49Speaker 00

  But you've taken that to mean.

• 29:52Speaker 01

  You weren't satisfied with your life with me and so now you've got a life of your own with your unborn child. This bloke's an expectant father. He's lost his pregnant wife.

• 30:04Speaker 00

  You look at that inscription, those words, and you think that he's trying to convey a meaning that distances himself from culpability.

• 30:16Speaker 01

  Yeah. You had the audacity to take your life. I hope you're happy now.

• 30:23Speaker 00

  Couldn't it also just mean what it says? Which is, I hope you find peace with your uncle or daughter.

• 30:29Speaker 03

  And an acknowledgement of the baby as well.

• 30:33Speaker 01

  It's a kick in the guts.

• 30:35Speaker 00

  That inscription really triggers you and makes you very cross. But if you were more open minded, say.

• 30:43Speaker 01

  I am open minded. It just annoys me that someone would write that on a headstone.

• 30:52Speaker 00

  I know how you feel about Ray McQueen. You believe he's a cold blooded murderer.

• 30:57Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 30:58Speaker 00

  And that he directed those words because he wanted to message in a certain way, what he wanted people to believe, which was that Roz took her own life.

• 31:12Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 31:13Speaker 00

  Whereas you are certain she did not take her own life.

• 31:16Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think knowing more now than what I knew when I got married in 1969,

• 31:25Speaker 01

  just how strong a woman's urge is to have children. It's just the instinct to keep the race going.

• 31:35Speaker 00

  There are women, including pregnant women, who do kill themselves.

• 31:41Speaker 01

  Yes. But if I had to put money on it,

• 31:47Speaker 01

  I would back the fact that she didn't kill herself.

• 31:53Speaker 00

  We set off in Rex's four wheel drive. Rex took us past the site of the old Kangaroo Flat Bus Lines.

• 32:01Speaker 01

  And that's where Ray worked from. He got the sack after many warnings that he should be wearing the company uniform. I spoke to the then manager in the office and he was the one that told me that McQueen had an outburst when he was sacked and started smashing up the boss's desk with a heavy weight that was an ornament or something in the office.

• 32:26Speaker 00

  Arriving at the cemetery, Rex knew exactly where to go next.

• 32:31Speaker 01

  Rosalind's grave is the second row.

• 32:34Speaker 00

  Do you remember the first time you came to this gravesite?

• 32:38Speaker 01

  Yes, and every time I'm in Bendigo, I come and see her and tell her that I'm still on the job.

• 32:46Speaker 00

  Why do you come to this place?

• 32:48Speaker 01

  It's the least I can do for her.

• 32:51Speaker 00

  Why do you feel this connection?

• 32:53Speaker 01

  Because it's my duty to do something and if I don't do it, who's going to do it?

• 33:00Speaker 00

  It's been 40 years since she died.

• 33:03Speaker 01

  It doesn't matter, but it's part of my life. And I'm retired, but it's my responsibility to see an end to this project.

• 33:12Speaker 00

  When you come here and you tell her that you're still on the job.

• 33:17Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 33:18Speaker 00

  Do you do that because you believe in the afterlife and you think that there's a connection that she's hearing? Or do you just say that?

• 33:27Speaker 01

  I don't believe in religion or the afterlife. I merely come here for her to hear that I'm still on the job. It's ridiculous, isn't it? But it's the least I can do for her.

• 33:40Speaker 00

  Rex revisited the message that's been on Roz's grave for four decades.

• 33:47Speaker 01

  An inscription on a headstone should be demonstrated by one of love. It should be in fond memories of a deceased person. This is the last remembrance to write that thing there, which is going to be there forevermore probably. It's not really cricket.

• 34:07Speaker 00

  Karina walked ahead, reading names on headstones and searching for the inscription which triggers Rex.

• 34:15Speaker 03

  Well, here.

• 34:17Speaker 01

  Fresh Wales to what I've seen before.

• 34:21Speaker 03

  They do look quite new.

• 34:23Speaker 01

  Here again, Roz, come to see you. We're on the job.

• 34:30Speaker 03

  I'm going to have to pull the weight out, I'm sorry.

• 34:32Speaker 01

  Yeah, yeah.

• 34:35Speaker 00

  What do you think of the last sentence?

• 34:38Speaker 03

  I think it's the circumstances of the death that make it seem a bit off. She was carrying an unborn baby who was dearly wanted by her, as everyone says. And all of the other children, including the stepchildren, are acknowledged.

• 34:58Speaker 01

  And my view is, he must make every effort to strengthen his alibi. These are terrible bloody faces.

• 35:07Speaker 00

  I think they're quite peaceful.

• 35:09Speaker 01

  They've lowered the water table that much by digging all these graves where the trees have died. And that's what's happened.

• 35:17Speaker 03

  That's a bit grim.

• 35:20Speaker 01

  Such is life, we'll all finish up and boot ill one day.

• 35:24Speaker 00

  You've heard Rex express strong views about the messaging on Rosalind's headstone in the cemetery. Alan Strawn wasn't privy to our conversation, but he is familiar with the headstone and he has his own view. You heard Alan in episode six when he was describing how he helped Ray McQueen's first wife, Jeanette, escape the property one day. We went up to the grave before.

• 35:52Speaker 04

  It's a very interesting headstone.

• 35:55Speaker 00

  What does that headstone say to you?

• 35:58Speaker 04

  Well, to me, it probably says that he's just trying to tell the public that he had nothing to do with it.

• 36:03Speaker 00

  That she committed suicide.

• 36:04Speaker 04

  Hmm. And that he's wiped his hands of it. He had no involvement in it.

• 36:11Speaker 00

  Donna's bravery in speaking to us despite the long lasting impact that Rosalind's death has had on her life was very obvious. Donna had powerful motives too. She remains hopeful that there will be a breakthrough in this case. And in breaking her own silence, she might contribute to a breakthrough in a very positive way. As you've heard, we covered a lot of ground over several hours during our interviews with her. But there was one thing we hadn't really broached. Call it the elephant in the room. This hospital has changed a lot since 1986 with modern extensions.

• 36:54Speaker 00

  Back then, Donna Manalek was brought here and the circumstances were really unusual.

• 37:01Speaker 03

  She was speaking with police and she was asked whether she would be prepared to undergo what's called virginity testing to try to ascertain whether or not she'd had sex with Ray McQueen. She was taken into the casualty department into emergency where an internal examination was performed by Dr. Crossley.

• 37:22Speaker 00

  There was a remarkable coincidence too. Dr. Crossley on April 1, 1986, saw the body of Roz McQueen here and he certified her as dead. And then he was called upon by police three months later to examine Donna Manalek to determine whether she was a virgin. A really unusual thing to happen and of course she'd only recently turned 17. Police must have been deeply sceptical of her claims.

• 37:55Speaker 03

  I think that they were considering that Ray's relationship with Donna must have been a sexual one.

• 38:03Speaker 00

  She said we've kissed, but there's been no sexual contact. They wanted to test that.

• 38:10Speaker 03

  They were thinking about the motive for Ray potentially having murdered Roz and obviously an infatuation or a relationship with Donna was a good motive for police to hold on to.

• 38:22Speaker 00

  It's hard to imagine something like that happening now, isn't it?

• 38:25Speaker 03

  It's pretty much inconceivable.

• 38:28Speaker 00

  We had not questioned Donna about the so called virginity testing that she underwent during the homicide investigation in 1986. Karina and I talked about it. We couldn't just ignore it. And so she called Donna and explained the omission. They agreed to a second interview the next day.

• 38:51Speaker 03

  It's just recording now. You probably heard the little recorded message.

• 38:56Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 38:57Speaker 03

  What I was hoping to talk to you about today is the medical examination that you had done at the request of police. How did that examination come about?

• 39:08Speaker 02

  It was during an interview because I was at the police station. I was asked the question if I had had sex with Ray and said no. I was asked if I would prove it by going in, having him medically examined.

• 39:27Speaker 00

  After 40 years, Donna could not recall some of these specific details, such as the date and timing of the internal examination, how she got to the Bendigo Base Hospital, where it was done and who was there. But we've been able to piece together some of these details from the police brief of evidence. Donna's lengthy police statement made while she was being questioned by Detective Sergeant Mick Furlong has been well aired in this podcast series. That interview was conducted on July 1, 1986. Donna's mother, Glennis Manalek, also made a police statement that same day with a different detective, Max McDonald.

• 40:11Speaker 00

  Donna signed her statement at 6:40pm at the Bendigo CIB's offices. She seems to have gone straight from the police interview room to the Bendigo Base Hospital for what was called virginity testing. Dr. Peter Crossley said in his police statement that he examined Donna at 7:15pm. Karina was very keenly interested in the question of consent.

• 40:38Speaker 03

  Did the police allow you to make that decision as to whether or not you consented to the examination?

• 40:45Speaker 02

  Yes, I think so. They said, would you be willing to? Well, it was the only way that I could prove that I wasn't lying.

• 40:54Speaker 00

  Donna told Karina her parents did not join her in the police interview room.

• 40:59Speaker 02

  I was aligned with all the interviews.

• 41:02Speaker 03

  And was that by choice?

• 41:05Speaker 02

  No, they came to my work the first time and asked to speak to me and asked me to accompany them to the station for questioning.

• 41:15Speaker 03

  And were you asked whether you wanted to phone a parent or have a parent join you as a support person?

• 41:22Speaker 02

  I can't remember any requests about having my parents there. They may have, but not to my knowledge.

• 41:29Speaker 00

  Donna disclosed that she was not told beforehand what the examination would involve.

• 41:35Speaker 02

  There was nothing said about the examination, like what I'd have to do.

• 41:42Speaker 03

  Had you had an examination like this before with a doctor?

• 41:47Speaker 02

  No.

• 41:49Speaker 00

  In official documents obtained for this podcast investigation, there is evidence that homicide detectives received Donna's consent for the virginity testing examination in 1986. Donna has confirmed that this is her recollection too. And the documents also suggest that police asked Donna's parents about consent for the examination. Donna's stepfather, Alf Benalic, waited with police outside a room in the casualty section at Bendigo Hospital during Donna's examination there, according to sworn testimony. Retired Detective Senior Sergeant Ron Blackshaw has told me that the examination would not have occurred

• 42:33Speaker 00

  if Donna or her parents had not agreed to it, but they both agreed. And detectives saw it as a way to address the innuendo bound up in the evidence coming from other witnesses who were claiming that Ray and Donna appeared to be in a sexual relationship. Ron Blackshaw said that the examination was not frowned upon as it is by some now, and that there was nothing unlawful about it in 1986.

• 43:02Speaker 03

  I assume it was very confronting.

• 43:06Speaker 02

  It was very embarrassing and very intrusive.

• 43:10Speaker 03

  Why do you describe it that way?

• 43:13Speaker 02

  Well, when you haven't been intimate with someone and you've got to get up on a table with your lower half naked and spread your legs and someone go inside you to examine you, it's very embarrassing.

• 43:28Speaker 00

  She couldn't remember being told the actual results. Karina shared with her the short statement from Dr. Crossley.

• 43:36Speaker 03

  The doctor's written that Donna claimed to be a virgin. And then his conclusion is no evidence to suggest that Donna's claim was untrue.

• 43:47Speaker 02

  Right.

• 43:48Speaker 03

  Now, you've had a lot of life experience and you're a mother of daughters. How do you feel about the fact that you had this procedure?

• 43:59Speaker 02

  I don't think they should have been allowed to take me.

• 44:04Speaker 03

  By being asked to undergo the examination, you felt that your version of events was being tested?

• 44:12Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah, most definitely. A bit like a bullying technique, I think. Well, okay, this is what you say. Are you willing to prove it? Well, come on, let's go.

• 44:24Speaker 00

  Karina spoke with Donna about how attitudes to virginity testing have changed drastically since Donna had her examination in 1986.

• 44:34Speaker 03

  Virginity testing is illegal in the United Kingdom. The Australian Government decided that historical virginity testing in institutional settings is actually institutional child sexual abuse.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Oh, wow.

• 44:51Speaker 03

  You went through an extraordinary experience. Did you tell Ray that you'd had the examination?

• 44:59Speaker 02

  I can't remember.

• 45:01Speaker 00

  But Ray McQueen knew about Donna's examination, and his solicitor would have had Dr. Crossley's report from the police brief to the coroner for the inquest. Ray McQueen raised the fact of the examination when he talked to our colleague Liam Mendez just days before the first episode of this series was launched. Liam had been asking Ray about his connection with Donna, and Ray was trying to distance himself, not even remembering whether he had kissed her. Did she also say that the police blackmailed her into having a virginity test? And she tested for virgin.

• 45:45Speaker 00

  After Karina and Donna stopped talking about the examination, Donna was asked if she wanted to add anything else. She paused and spoke again.

• 45:56Speaker 02

  I've just been reeling from this since we last spoke because I found out stuff that I didn't know and just trying to deal with it, I guess.

• 46:08Speaker 03

  It must be hard for you. I'm sorry, it's probably brought up a lot of memories and they've now resurfaced.

• 46:14Speaker 02

  Yes, a whole lot of not very nice feelings. You feel that you've dealt with things from a long time ago until it comes back up. But I think there was so much more information that I learnt. You go through a whole lot of emotions. I've been pretty angry.

• 46:34Speaker 03

  That's caused you to rethink things?

• 46:38Speaker 02

  Yeah, it puts a whole new life on the situation. All the lies that I found out about, that he told people about the cancer and all that sort of stuff, he played us all for fools.

• 46:50Speaker 03

  So you don't remember the police ever telling you that Rosalind didn't have cancer?

• 46:56Speaker 02

  No.

• 46:57Speaker 03

  Did you think that she died from the strychnine poisoning but had cancer as well?

• 47:05Speaker 02

  Yes. We were under the impression that she passed away because of the cancer until we were later notified of the strychnine poisoning. But we still thought she had cancer.

• 47:21Speaker 00

  Donna had been piecing together some of the information we'd shared with her, casting her mind back to what she was told at the time, what she believed she knew at the time, and wondering if things might have turned out differently if she had known more back in 1986.

• 47:40Speaker 02

  If the police had have told us that there was no cancer, maybe we wouldn't have fought for him. Our eyes would have been open a bit more and we would have maybe asked ourselves the questions. Hang on a minute, if he's lied about this. There could have been some things that I may have known back then and just kind of brushed off as nothing, which if we had have been informed of her not actually having cancer and might have made me go back and think twice and go, oh, hang on, maybe I do need to tell them this. Or maybe I can talk to mum and dad about this information and see whether they think I should tell the police. I never told him about the letter he gave me. That was the letter that said that he'd had feelings for me

• 48:25Speaker 02

  since the first time we met or something like that. And then that freaked me out because I was only 14 when we met.

• 48:33Speaker 03

  I imagine it's really hard for witnesses to judge what is and isn't important information if you don't really know much about the facts of the case at that time or the police theories.

• 48:48Speaker 00

  The grooming of Donna by a man more than twice her age was causing her a lot of angst. She was still questioning whether she was somehow responsible for this.

• 49:00Speaker 02

  You feel stupid because of the realisation that you were groomed. It's pretty humiliating in itself, even though you're at such a young age.

• 49:13Speaker 02

  At least me questioning what kind of a person I was. And did I send out signals? Was I a needy person? Was I a flirtatious person?

• 49:27Speaker 02

  Because I got all this unwanted attention. You ask the question as to whether you asked for it. They're the things that have gone through my mind since you and Headley were here.

• 49:41Speaker 03

  No, it's not your fault. You know, you're a child when all this is happening. Way back then in 1986, which is just such a different time.

• 49:50Speaker 00

  In the next episode of The Poisoned Wife. If he is a murderer, he's a bloody good one, isn't he? I found that the most strangest thing and has stuck in my head ever since.

• 50:16Speaker 00

  The Poisoned Wife is investigated and written by me, Hedley Thomas, and Karina Berger. Police statements and some other material have been voice acted in the episodes in this podcast series. Anyone with information about the death of Rosalind McQueen can contact me confidentially at [email protected]. Our editorial director is Claire Harvey. Audio production for The Poisoned Wife is by Wasabi Audio and Slade Gibson. Special thanks to Tom Williams, Sean Callanan, Andy Taylor, Greg Brown, Rowan Williams, Brittany English and the Content Division,

• 50:59Speaker 00

  Adelaide Kennedy, Tarnie Stroett, Sophie Rene, Liam Mendez, Sarah Elks, Erica Rutledge, Lydia Lynch, Chloe Barr, John Paul Cashin, Will Sitem, Liliana Molina, Lara Caminos, Sue's Rol, Chantelle Love, Patrick McKee, Byron Wilder, Stefania Di Nicola, Kushi Chandani, Jonathan Bahame, Lachlan Clear, Harry Hughes, Milan Skapamovic, Rex Bakes and Wendy Beatty. And of course, to The Australian's editor in chief, Michelle Gunn, and the editor Kelvin Healy for affording us the time and resources to tackle these important stories.