Matt Barnes Media Mogul reflects on NBA work ethic and success to co-founding All The Smoke Productions, Kobe Bryant, public breakups, fatherhood, vulnerability, accountability and the courage to apologize, evolve and grow as a man.

“I may not always say the right thing or do the right thing but I know if I make a mistake, I’m not too big of a man not to apologize.” Matt Barnes From the streets to the NBA, from the highs of professional basketball to the challenges of love, fatherhood, and finding himself, Matt Barnes joins the guys for an unfiltered conversation about the journey that shaped him — not just as an athlete, but as a man. Known for his toughness, intensity, and willingness to stand on business, Matt opens up about the experiences that built him, the battles that changed him, and the lessons that forced him to grow. From his upbringing and basketball journey to navigating relationships, breakups, marriage, and the realities of raising a family, Matt reflects on the moments that tested him both publicly and privately. He takes us inside his relationship with Kobe Bryant, the impact of competing alongside one of basketball's greatest, and the lessons he carried from being around greatness. But beyond the game, the conversation dives into something deeper: what it means to evolve when the world already has an opinion of who you are. Today, Matt is embracing new chapters as a father, entrepreneur, media personality, and businessman — learning that the same discipline, resilience, and competitive fire that fueled his NBA career must now be applied to life beyond basketball. The conversation explores accountability, healing, relationships, purpose, legacy, and what it really takes to become a better man. Because being tough isn't just about how you respond to adversity; it's about having the courage to look in the mirror, own your mistakes, and grow through them. This is Matt Barnes beyond the headlines, beyond the highlights, and beyond the reputation. A conversation about evolution, fatherhood, resilience, and redefining what greatness looks like when the game is no longer the priority. Because the real win isn't just making it to the league — it's becoming the man you were meant to be long after the final buzzer. Full video episode streaming on Netflix now, don't want to miss this one. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Speaker 00

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• 0:30Channing Crowder?

  Matt Barnes has always been unapologetically himself, authentic to who he is, where he comes from, and the way he was raised. Finding himself wasn't always easy growing up biracial. He often felt that he didn't fit anywhere. And when he experienced racism after moving to a predominantly white school, his father answered with one word: Fight. And in many ways, that one word became the blueprint for how Matt approached life. He started out as a football player, and then he moved to the hardwood. He played excellent at UCLA, but it wasn't enough to become a first-round pick. And drafted in the second round, he bounced around before finding his space, and then he embraced his identity. He shot threes, he played defense, he became an enforcer. It wasn't about feelings,

• 1:15Channing Crowder?

  and he had no softness, and nothing was really personal. It was strictly business. And that mentality carried him into this next chapter. Today, he's behind one of the biggest media platforms in all of sports: All the Smoke, where the conversations are just as authentic and unfiltered as the man himself. We got into everything, from the experiences that shaped him from a child to a man, to fatherhood and being a husband. We talked about Kobe Bryant and the "We Believe Warriors" that led us to the loss of his mother. But we also got into the real stuff: the mistakes, the forgiveness, the marriage, and what it means to earn loyalty and give respect. And if you know Matt Barnes, you already know that this wasn't a surface-level conversation.

• 2:00Channing Crowder?

  He brought the honesty and the perspective and the willingness to go wherever the conversation took us. What I'm saying is, he ain't ducked no smoke. And neither did we. So Pivot fam, make some noise, and please welcome Matt Barnes to the Pivot.

• 2:35Channing Crowder?

  Matt Barnes, man, welcome to the Pivot.

• 2:36Speaker 02

  Man, good to be... I feel like I made it, man. I've been doing this shit for a long time, but I'm on the Pivot now, and I feel like I've been stamped. Man, it's good to be here. What's happening, fellas?

• 2:44Channing Crowder?

  Man, we excited about it. This is Channing Crowder, Fred Telling, Ryan Clark, Pivot fam. Thank y'all for pivoting with us. Man, it's... You feel like you know somebody, and then you start to prepare to sit with them in a conversation, and you learn things that, like, you just didn't know about why people are the way they are. And I read a ton about your father, man. And he was a hard man.

• 3:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 3:07Channing Crowder?

  Like, he was.

• 3:08Speaker 02

  Tough love.

• 3:08Channing Crowder?

  And he built y'all on principle and foundations. One of those things was: Never take in disrespect. And he said, "Protect yourself and defend yourself, even if it's physically." How much did that teaching, just that simple part of your father, shape who you are?

• 3:27Speaker 02

  I think it's huge. You know, I'm 46, so I was an 80's baby born in 1980. And back then, people used to just fight. That's what it was. You'd get your neighborhood fights, or wherever, different neighborhoods, whatever it was, no guns, no knives, no nothing. It was just fighting. And, you know, my dad instilled that very early. You know, I was born in San Jose, lived there for about nine years, and moved up north to Sacramento. My pops was in the streets. We had to bust a move. And when we got there, I went from a majority-minority neighborhood, schools, to predominantly white schools. And I didn't understand at the time why my parents put me in white schools. Even though I'm biracial, I was just never really around white kids my first nine years of life. So in Sacramento, I'm around white kids,

• 4:11Speaker 02

  and the first thing that starts coming out is "nigga this, nigga that." And I'm just like, "Damn." For the first time at nine, I'm just like, "Because I'm a little darker than you, I can't play kickball with you, I can't play basketball with you." So obviously, a little disheartened. You know, my mom, Italian, you know, very loving, "It's okay, baby." Pat me on my shoulder, or, you know, hug me. My dad said, "Fuck that. They call you a nigga, fight 'em." So at 3rd grade, I kind of got the green light to just kind of fight for my respect. And I was literally fighting so much that my mom, who was a stay-at-home mom, started to come working at the school during recess. So like, our little breaks, our 15-minute break, our lunch break, and our post-lunch break, my mom was always there, just to kind of make sure shit was cool. And, you know, I fought for maybe a whole school year,

• 4:55Speaker 02

  maybe into 4th grade, and then they finally accepted me. And I was an athlete, and kind of went on from there of just kind of being cool with everyone up until my senior year, when some shit happened.

• 5:09Channing Crowder?

  Hey, he got to that quicker than we.

• 5:12Speaker 02

  Some shit went down.

• 5:13Channing Crowder?

  Yeah. Before you, man, you know... And Channing's had this conversation on this show before. We had Kane Brown on the show, who was biracial as well. But he said he didn't know about being half-black until he was older, because his father wasn't around. You knew... Did you have to try to figure out that balance between sometimes not being black enough, but also never being white enough?

• 5:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, you gotta, you know... I learned to code-switch early, but also to your point, like, when shit goes down, where do you run? You're not black enough to black kids, and I'm not white enough to white kids. So there was really nowhere. Luckily, today, we live in really a mixed world, but, you know, early 80's, 80's, it wasn't... You know, I didn't... My, you know, my grandparents, my mom's side, wouldn't accept my dad and her kids until I was like, 6 years old. And then they were amazing. But they're old-school Italian. You know what I mean? Like, they don't fuck with black people. So it's just like... I saw it at a very early age, and it shaped and defined the whole human I've become. You know, before social media was a thing, I was always speaking out for the people who couldn't speak or who were scared. If I ever kind of saw any kind of injustice,

• 6:22Speaker 02

  I was just always the one that was going to speak out against it. And kind of, again, that's why I'm so outspoken now, you know, with this administration, with the racism and the bullshit going on. But at a very early age, I had to fight for acceptance. And then it shaped, I think, my outward, you know, my forward personality and standing on business when it comes to race and racism.

• 6:44Speaker 03

  And there's a... Because I went through that too. Like, I got a record. I got felonies on my... You know, all that. And I think it's them from having to like, to be in that position. My back's against the wall.

• 6:56Speaker 02

  Are you mixed, or black, or just light? You're like, what are you?

• 6:58Speaker 03

  Black and white, straight down to there.

• 6:59Speaker 02

  Okay, yeah. And you're light, light, too. Like, I'm a couple of shades darker than you.

• 7:03Speaker 03

  Hey, don't run, don't run away from me.

• 7:04Speaker 02

  And there's some... I don't. But I'm saying, like, to keep it real, like, there's shade discrimination, too. It's not just the black...

• 7:11Speaker 03

  It's colorblind.

• 7:12Speaker 02

  Yeah, so it's just like, the shades of it, I'm just like, "God damn, can I get a motherfucking break?" You just want to just meet me and talk to me and see if you like me then? But it was, you know, it's, again, growing up, it was tough. But go ahead.

• 7:22Speaker 03

  Yeah, I'm an 80's baby, too, so we were soft.

• 7:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:25Speaker 03

  The red dudes, that's why I think I started fighting, because they'll try you for... We just had lunch. We all eating chicken tenders. "Why the hell you want to fight me? Well, let's get it."

• 7:32Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:33Speaker 03

  But now, raising kids... But even looking back, like, your dad's approach. My mom was like that.

• 7:37Speaker 02

  Okay.

• 7:37Speaker 03

  Man, fuck them.

• 7:38Speaker 02

  Right, period.

• 7:39Speaker 03

  Yeah, but don't cry. Hit their ass.

• 7:41Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 7:42Speaker 03

  What's a way to... What could have been a better way to deal with that? Because you can't gain respect, physical respect, but you're not going to gain respect if he didn't do it. How could you have dealt with, when you were 9 years old? If you're talking to your 9-year-old self, deal with that a different way than slapping the shit out of somebody?

• 7:56Speaker 02

  No. At that time, in the 80's, that was, to me, that was the only way. Now it's different, I feel like. But I think back then, that's how it was. You know what I mean? I just think we lived in a different society where if someone ran their mouth back then, they had, there was consequences for it. I think we live in a society now that's a little softer because people hide behind these screens and talk that same shit and don't get a response from us. You know what I mean? Or consequences, should I say? And not that I'm trying to be a bully and do all this, but we know shit, 90% of the foul shit people say on social media, probably 98% of this foul... They wouldn't say to your face. Like, not in your life. You know, most of the time, it's smiles and pictures and all that kind of shit. But let me turn my back, and it's throw darts at it. So to my 80's, and 89, when I'm 9 years old, I'm thinking that's... I'm glad I dealt with it that way because I figure, I feel like

• 8:41Speaker 02

  that puts something in me that I can reel back in if I need to. But if I never had that in me, who knows? Because I literally got tested all the way, my first couple of years in the league. Light skin, tattoos, hair, like, "He's a punk." And then I was like, "All right, I ain't the toughest motherfucker, but I ain't no punk." So I had to get down a lot. You know what I mean? It was me and them. And then on top of that, I was a football player, too, first and foremost. You know what I mean? So I played basketball. Basketball was my second sport. You know what I mean? So I always had a toughness to me that got tested often.

• 9:09Speaker 04

  Man, I saw a dope-ass post the other day. You posted, you talking about your son. You got your shack. But you were going to let him, basically, find himself.

• 9:18Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 9:19Speaker 04

  Right? Go through those experiences. Your experience and how you were parented. You know, seeing your parents, you mentioned that they... The drugs that they went through, the experience with racism. How do you, as a father, how do you parent your children?

• 9:36Speaker 02

  I'm so lucky that, you know, I have 17-year-old boys, and then I was blessed enough to get remarried, and I have a 7 and a 2-year-old on top of 3 bonus kids. So I have a shitload. I have 7 kids. 4 sons, and then 3 stepkids, 2 sons and a daughter. But I parent a little bit old-school from a standpoint... I got a... I cuss a lot. And I think I could cuss to the twins, and they understand. Like, they don't, you know, like, "Get your fucking ass... Hurry up and get your ass down here. We got to go." And they're like, and I like... They're looking at me like, "Dad just said hurry up and let's go." You know what I mean? That's just kind of how I emphasize. So, 1, I'm big on discipline. I think we all got whooped when we were little. I don't really have to whoop no more. I think I just changed my voice, and they kind of straightened up. But I think the biggest thing I lead with is,

• 10:21Speaker 02

  it's okay to show your emotions. It's okay to cry. It's okay to say "I love you." It's okay to hug and kiss. Probably one of the biggest heartbreaks of my life was probably the twins were maybe 2nd grade. And I'd always, I'd be taking them to school, get out and walk them up to the thing, and I would kiss them goodbye. And one day out the boo, they both gave me one of these. Like, what the fuck is going on? Like, Dad, you can't do that no more. I'm like, why not? Just because, Dad, we love you, bye. And I'm like, oh, it broke my heart. I'll grow it. Broke my heart. You know, I mean, at second grade, what are they, six, seven years old? And that was kind of then. And obviously, my big old seven-year-old now, it's definitely, he already daps me. Like, he's an old soul. So I think I leave with love, obviously, and letting them know emotions are OK.

• 11:06Speaker 02

  Because I think we all grew up in a time where there was no such thing as mental health. It was toughen up, tighten up, quit crying, and handle your business. So I think, and we all probably have, and I'm in a few different kinds of counseling, kind of unpacking childhood issues that I didn't think at the time I thought were normal, but they're showing up in different aspects of my life, whether it be my relationships, or my parenting skills, or my business management. So understanding that that toughen up shit caused a lot of suppression and compartmentalizing things that maybe if I would have got out, I wouldn't have been a ticking time bomb, you know, through my 30s up into my 40s. So I just think being loved, being emotional, hugging, kissing is all stuff I didn't really get from my dad because he was tough love.

• 11:49Speaker 02

  So I think that's definitely what I leave with before any of the sports stuff is love.

• 11:54Speaker 04

  Right.

• 11:55Channing Crowder?

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• 12:51Channing Crowder?

  You know, Matt, you unfortunately sometimes find out how famous you are in the worst times, right? You had to deal with relationship issues publicly. Like, we all know, bro, ain't nothing like going through it with your lady. It's hard to work, right? It's hard to function. You be mad at your homeboy, he ain't done you nothing. You talking to him, right? But it's another thing, Matt, to have to deal with it publicly.

• 13:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 13:21Channing Crowder?

  And you said there was some emotional unavailability that played a part in that. How much does that play into the way you're raising your boys differently? So they don't have to experience something like that to make a change in their 40s?

• 13:36Speaker 02

  Do as I say, not as I do. You know, because I'm still learning at my age of 46. You know, like, I was raised a certain way, and that's how I came up. And whether, you know, good or bad, it's just who I am. So understanding and being more self-aware at the age I am, I have to make a conscious effort of letting them know that's not OK. Like, OK, you know, Dad, you fought this or did this. Like, yeah, you're right, but that's not OK. You mean, I fixed that. You know what I mean? Especially because, I mean, I think, you know, when I fought, when I got into it with Derek, the twins are six years old. You know what I mean? And it's just like, damn, like, we love my dad, we love our mom, and then this person's in the middle, and we heard our dad did this and that, and, you know what I mean? So it's just like, yeah, I've done things, I think. And I always say this, I live as a man before anything else.

• 14:21Speaker 02

  Before I was an athlete, I just reacted as a man. You know what I mean? And I feel like one thing I was taught at an early age is, because I don't disrespect, I try my best not to disrespect, show everyone love and respect. So when you're disrespected, I acted as a man, not as, damn, I'm on this team, if I do this, am I going to get in trouble? No, I acted because I felt like people die for less. You know what I mean? So I just acted as a man. So, you know, kind of navigating my way and really not having, although my dad was a tough, loving dad, like, I didn't have the birds and the bees talk. I didn't have the, an example of raising my family the right way, treating him, treating my mom the right, like, I didn't see none of that shit. So when I got older, I'm just like, damn, I got to figure all this shit out. I don't really have, my dad was there, but I didn't learn this from my dad. I learned to be tough, protect your family, and to fight for my dad. You know what I mean?

• 15:04Speaker 02

  So I didn't learn the other, you know, a lot of other important parts that go into being a man, being a father, being a partner.

• 15:11Channing Crowder?

  How much did you, and, you know, we kind of had this conversation, you and I, how much did you put on providing as being a man?

• 15:21Speaker 02

  That was it.

• 15:21Channing Crowder?

  As opposed to all the other stuff? It's like, look, I'm doing this at a high level.

• 15:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 15:26Channing Crowder?

  All the rest of this is going to be what it's going to be. How much did you really put your stamp on that?

• 15:30Speaker 02

  I think a lot of us do that unless we've had that example. You know, we think providing is, and it is, probably one of the main things, but also being emotionally available is right up there with our wives or our girlfriends. And I was always someone that provided for not only my family, but several families. You know what I mean? So I just thought, I'm always doing my job, and I had selfish, you know, tendencies. And obviously, you know, again, one relationship played out in the media, my second relationship that I'm actually in now, and lucky, you know, she's stuck by me, and we're married now, and great, she's an absolutely amazing woman, my wife now, like, that played out publicly. You know what I mean? So it's just, again, I'm learning on the fly. It's not an excuse. You know what I mean?

• 16:12Speaker 02

  We just, when you're built a certain way and you've been doing shit for a long time, you have to really find someone that's worth breaking those bad habits for. And I feel like, you know, my current wife is the person that is worth that, and I took that for granted for a long time. You know what I mean? Because I went right from, and there was no quarrels about who, I was a role player in the NBA, but I was, I had the same kind of movement as some guys that had been All-Stars because I'd been on big teams, I nearly fought the biggest player in the league, I'd been on reality TV, so there was just a lot of emotion around my name, you know? So when I retired, normally, role players kind of fade off into obscurity. You know, I didn't. I jumped right into ESPN, and then I launched my own platform, so there's never really been like a falloff.

• 16:57Speaker 02

  Like, I've been holding it down strong for Light Skins, Channing, you know what I mean? For a long time, my Nick, yeah.

• 17:03Channing Crowder?

  You like that?

• 17:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. So I've been holding it down for a long time. So it was just like, again, selfishness, athlete habits, having a little bit of money habits, you know what I mean? I really had to, like, have a wake-up call, you know, where my fiance at the time left me, I'm done. And literally packed her, went up and bounced. And I didn't know if she was serious, and she did, and it broke my heart. You know what I mean? Rock bottom.

• 17:26Speaker 04

  Your reputation certainly entered rooms before you did. Like, I mean...

• 17:31Speaker 02

  I don't know if that's good or bad, but no, I hear what you're saying.

• 17:34Channing Crowder?

  Like, when Tyson came in the room, right? You're like, what we gonna get?

• 17:38Speaker 03

  At the ground a little bit.

• 17:39Channing Crowder?

  You know what I'm saying? Like, that just, especially from afar, right?

• 17:42Speaker 03

  Is he not happy today?

• 17:43Speaker 04

  Right, from afar, you see, like, this motherfucker, like, badass motherfucker on TV, right? And you don't know until you actually get to meet somebody or hear them speak, to see what you stand for when you speak about the community and through injustices and all this shit. Like, you don't realize how fucking brilliant you are. You know, you got your platform and stuff.

• 18:05Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 18:05Speaker 04

  So even coming in here today, stepping into this room, how would you handle that situation differently, or would you?

• 18:13Speaker 02

  What one?

• 18:14Speaker 04

  The Derek Fisher situation. The person you are today.

• 18:17Speaker 02

  Yes. The person I am today would probably have reached out and probably had a call with him, you know what I mean? And kind of just questioned, because my whole thing, and what a lot of people don't know, like, obviously, I don't agree with you dating my ex-wife, but we're exes. My issue was being around my kids and not telling me. That was my biggest issue, and the fact that my kids told me. You know what I mean? That's where the issue was, and when he and I had our face-to-face, that's what, that was my main. He explained his side, I explained my side, and the reasoning, and we apologized and adapted. Believe it or not, like, we've been cool ever since. Like, I got along better with him than unfortunately at times I had with my ex-wife. You know what I mean? So it's just like, at 46 now, it probably would have been more of a phone call, and

• 19:02Speaker 02

  I would just hope there would have been better communication on both sides, to be honest with you. Because it's not really my job to find that kind of shit out. You know what I mean? I'm not, I can't tell you who to move on with. But I feel like if you move on in a certain direction, maybe just, hey, heads up, you know what I mean? Your teammate, you know what I mean? I thought, but, again, I want to say, as you're asking me in front of all these cameras, if people are going to see that, that I would react, hopefully, in a more mature, I mean, I'll let you, bro, but, I don't know, man, if my kid, like, if my seven-year-old told me, because, you know, the twins were five or six, I have a seven-year-old now, if my twin, my seven-year-old told me some shit like that, I would...

• 19:36Channing Crowder?

  How much did your boys play a role in having a conversation to reconcile them?

• 19:41Speaker 02

  100%. 100%. Because I didn't really, again, you know, my ex-wife and I were finished, you know? It was what it was, she was moving on, I had moved on. But obviously, you know, as a dad, you want to make sure everything is good. And every time I'd ask the boys, how are you? What's going on? How's school? How's this? How's Derek? He always got rave reviews. So who am I to get in the way of, you know, again, we had our thing, our little get-down, and, you know, that following summer, we, you know, we shook hands and we're cool, but at the end of the day, like, you know, it takes a village. Our whole neighborhood raised us. We obviously live in a different time now, but it's going to take a village. So, you know, obviously, I salute my current wife now, because I've been with her for almost eight years, so, you know, for half the twins' life, she's been in their life.

• 20:24Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 20:24Speaker 02

  And then I was just on another show, the DeMar DeRozan Show, and I was, you know, I thanked Derek, you know what I mean? Because he helped me raise two grounded, good individuals who are, you know, on the honor roll and on the way to Division One, you know, basketball, to play, you know, Division One college to play basketball. Like, I coached him in the summer, he coached him during the high school season. So I think as much as people wanted us, it's on for life. Every time, you know, I see him, to me, it wasn't about that because I was over the relationship part. I just want to make sure I'm very present in my children's life.

• 20:57Speaker 03

  Talking about like that thought process of like provider, and I think in athletics, you got to fix the problems.

• 21:04Speaker 02

  Instantly.

• 21:05Speaker 03

  Like, defensively, fix the problem defensively, offensively, fix the problem. And in relationships, you can fix problems, especially with money.

• 21:11Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 21:11Speaker 03

  You can buy your way out of a lot of stuff.

• 21:13Speaker 02

  Or talk your way. Because you got money.

• 21:16Speaker 03

  You can connive your way too with the money. But like, I get stuck in it personally, whereas both sides of it, where I'm successful on the field or on the court because I'm a problem solver, I can't solve this problem, and it almost frustrates you. And then it gets the emotion out of you, but that bad emotion that made you drive angry for 20 hours is a story.

• 21:38Speaker 02

  It was only 15 minutes. But go ahead.

• 21:40Channing Crowder?

  That was an urban legend for sure.

• 21:43Speaker 03

  They say you was mad for 20 minutes.

• 21:44Speaker 02

  That was the Kanye. The Kanye rapped about it and said, I drove, what, 90 miles or something. I drove motherfucking seven miles. Took me 15 minutes. But go ahead.

• 21:55Channing Crowder?

  But even that conversation, I don't say talking like both sides, but it made you successful. But you can't be that all the time and turning that switch off sometimes.

• 22:04Speaker 02

  Yeah. I think we all have to grow up at some point. And I think as athletes, you know, we just have a little bit more of an invincibility about ourselves at the time. You know what I mean? We feel like, you know, because it's the way we're treated. You know, I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it, but there's a lot of perks being a professional athlete. We've all been professional athletes here. And there's still perks to this day. We've all been removed from the game for a long time and we still have perks from being a professional athlete. I mean, I think we have the platforms. We are. We have because we're professional athletes. So it's just like, understanding that, you know, with time comes growth and maturity. And like I said, as I raised my boys, do as I say, not as I do. I've made plenty of mistakes, but I think the one thing that, and I know when I look in the mirror, it's just like, I can own my shit. You know what I mean?

• 22:48Speaker 02

  I'm not trying to pretend that I'm not nobody or I shouldn't have did that or maybe I shouldn't have said this. Like, I'll be the first one to fight with you, but also apologize to you if I feel like I'm wrong and if I feel like I did something because I'm a man. You know what I mean? I'm not always gonna be right. You know, as much as I think I prepare for everything, I may not always say the right thing or do the right thing. But I know if I make a mistake, I'm not too big of a man to not apologize. So it's just, again, I feel like we live and we learn and to be able to put that, you know, that whole situation behind me for the betterment of my kids was obviously the most important thing for me.

• 23:21Channing Crowder?

  I tell people, my style of play evolved because of necessity. Right? Like, I was always tough. But as I got into the league and I was like, well, this dude does that better than me or he might be more athletic than me, but he's not willing to be more physical. He doesn't understand the game the way I do. So I'm going to be all of those things. Part of your role was as an enforcer. Part of your role was to be the attitude of a team. How much of that was just comfortable to you, right? And it was based on who you are? And then what pieces of that came from, this is how I'm going to continue my career and make myself valuable to teams?

• 24:01Speaker 02

  Good point. Naturally, it was comfortable with me because, you know, my dad was, if your brother or sister fights, you better fight. So protect family from the jump was always my thing. So, I mean, I talked about, obviously, it's not a lot of money now because the contracts are so ridiculous, but, you know, I lost over $600,000 in fines. And I could probably, maybe a handful were just teased, but like, the big money I lost, it was always taken up for teammates. You know what I mean? But at the same time, I feel like, understanding your role in any sport is the most important thing you can identify at a very early age. I think in my particular sport, everybody wants to be Kobe and LeBron and Steph and score a lot of points, but those motherfuckers are a godsend. It was written for them to do what they do. You know what I mean?

• 24:44Speaker 02

  So I feel like, and I remember one thing Doc Rivers always said was, be a star in your role. I was a role player, very clear, but I knew that I was really good at knocking down open shots, playing defense, getting rebounds and being physical. You know what I mean? So, yeah, was there times during my career where I wanted to shoot the ball more or score more, have more 30-point games or more 20-point games or knock down more threes? Yeah. But that wasn't what my job description was. And I just think very early on, I figured out like, yo, this is gonna be my job. And I think my one mistake was I used to take less money to play on better teams.

• 25:15Channing Crowder?

  Okay.

• 25:16Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Because I figured if we all win, if we win, everyone's gonna eat. You know what I mean? So I turned down a lot of money during my career to play with better teams. And I don't regret it because I'm a teammate. I'm an ultimate team. I wanna, I wanna win as a whole. I think that's why I played the game. But, you know, to understand my role at a certain point in my career where, you know, I was very fortunate to walk away the game, walk away from the game on my own accord. You know what I mean? And I also had a situation where I had just signed a three-year contract. So I happened to win a championship and walk away and I still had two years of being guaranteed money coming in. I felt like I could have played a little bit more, but at that time, I was, you know, I was going through that. I had finalized my divorce, but I still wasn't seeing my kids a lot because I'm not in town. I'm playing away.

• 26:01Speaker 02

  And then I felt like I was missing a lot of those important moments. The drop-offs, the first, the plays, the games, all that kind of stuff I knew I wouldn't get back. So, you know, I was able to walk away from the game on my own accord after 15 years. So I just felt like, playing my role because I wasn't the most talented, I wasn't the fastest, I didn't jump the highest, I didn't shoot the best, but there weren't too many motherfuckers that ever played the game that had as much heart as I had. And I knew that. And again, I attribute that to my upbringing and really being a football, like, we used to play tackle football on the street. You know what I mean? Like, that was really my sport. And as I got taller, you know, basketball was something I really picked up on. So I just think, like, my mentality out there allowed me to out heart and out will a lot of guys that had more accolades or were even better than me.

• 26:46Channing Crowder?

  Your mom passed from cancer.

• 26:48Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 26:49Channing Crowder?

  And, you know, you were with Golden State at the time.

• 26:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 26:54Channing Crowder?

  And everybody took the trip to be with you.

• 26:57Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 26:58Channing Crowder?

  As somebody who always put team first and was a team guy, and I know, you know, you're not really heavily emotional, what did that mean to you? And what did it say about how you poured into them that they wanted to be?

• 27:11Speaker 02

  It meant a lot because I knew I made it, because you have to make an impression on people for them to wanna, you know, do something like that for you. You know what I mean? Unfortunately, you know, people lose their parents. But the fact that the whole organization made the hour and a half drive up to Sacramento and made sure I was supported and loved and, you know, Nelly allowing me to miss practices and just come and play in games and, and then to be honest with you, that's where me and Jack really became close. Because before my mom died, Jack had got traded to us from Indiana on that We Believe season where we made a crazy run. But his mom and my mom would always be at the bar down below drinking tequila and everything after the games when we'd come in there. So they were kinda tight. So I think through our mom's friendship and then Jack, once my mom did die, Jack would come over constantly.

• 27:55Speaker 02

  Come smoke with me, watch TV, bring me food, sit and talk, not say shit, you know, just be there for me. And, you know, that's where we went from like, boys and teammates to like, brothers. And obviously, you know, that relationship's still, still staying strong. But it meant the world because, again, that was really my first year having a significant role in the league. You know what I mean? That We Believe year was really my first year. I'd bounced around, not really got a chance to play. I didn't know if I was gonna be in the NBA or not. Nelly gives me a chance. I kinda become a household name overnight. And then the very beginning of the next season where I'm supposed to really have that next breakout season, my mom dies. And it kinda is a wash of a whole entire year. But the fact that they were all there to support me definitely made it easier.

• 28:36Speaker 03

  Do you think you've, you got the respect on the court that you deserve? Because your teammates, obviously, like, are so important.

• 28:43Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think that's what I hang my hat on because, you know, people say what they want. You know, I played on a handful of teams, but I always either started or was the first six or seven guy off the bench. You know what I mean? Like, excuse me, the first or second guy off the bench. I was the sixth or seventh man. So I think, although I didn't get, you know, the all defensive teams that I felt like a handful of times, I was one of the best defenders in the league or, you know, whether I got the money, you know, with the numbers I put up and the way, what I brought to a team, I feel like, you know, I was shortchanged at the time. But I think what I really hang my hat on is just the respect of my peers. I think that's what everyone, at the end of the day, hangs their hat on. And I still, I value that more than anything now. You know what I mean? Because I feel like, in our, we've all done it, but in our profession, now that there's

• 29:28Speaker 02

  so many athletes in TV, they're taking the bait and they're doing the hot take bullshit and now you can't even call your homie. You know what I mean? Like, I value the fact that I can call anybody I played with at any time and they answer the phone. You know what I mean? And I think that says a lot, obviously, about who I am, but just the way I moved. You know what I mean? So that was one thing. When I was working for these major networks and we in here talking and doing the rundown and shit, I'm like, I'm not gonna say that because I don't believe it. You know what I mean? Like, I feel like I can articulate my point without having to shit on. I feel like we have a tough job because we have to critique our peers. Because that's a part of our job. But I think you can critique without disrespecting. And I think that there was a wave of the hot takes and the loud and all that extra bullshit that I feel like athletes, we should never have to do that. Because we can speak to what, every aspect of what that athlete is going through.

• 30:13Speaker 02

  Sometimes those people that didn't play the game have to fucking throw shit in the game to have something to talk about. But as former athletes, we should never have to, again, critiquing is a tough position. If someone's bullshitting, you should tell them, be able to tell them it's bullshit. But critiquing their play and not critiquing the man. And I think that's where sports media's kinda gone wrong is, you know, we take shots at individuals now and be loud and hot takes. And how often is a hot take right?

• 30:39Speaker 02

  Do you ever see the apology or hear the apology of not knowing that that lasting hot take, what that does to that person's, to that person's life? So I don't know how the fuck I got on this tangent, but I feel like, yeah.

• 30:50Speaker 03

  The respect.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah, I think it's you. It's, it's, it's everything.

• 30:54Channing Crowder?

  My dog said, I don't know how I got here, but I know it started somewhere.

• 30:58Speaker 02

  I had, I had a point at one point.

• 31:00Speaker 03

  Quickly, does the league now, because I'm good friends with Udonis Haslem, the enforcer, quote unquote, UD. Does the league need that? It don't seem, it seem like dudes like you are gone though.

• 31:11Speaker 02

  I feel like, you know, when I came in the league in, in, in the early 2000s, like, there were still vets, what, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41. Some of them didn't even play, but they were just a huge influence on players. The bridge between the coaches, showing you the do's and don'ts, helping you understand how to get your suit game together and all this other shit. And I feel like now, in our league in particular, the younger, the better. You know what I mean? The more, oh, I'm gonna take a chance on this young kid instead of this experienced vet like Udonis, but I guarantee you during those championship runs, whether Udonis was on the court or not, he paid huge dividends because he was a veteran presence. And I'm sure it's the same thing on the football side. Like, we think we know everything when we're in our heyday in our twenties, but we really don't know shit. You know what I mean?

• 31:56Speaker 02

  And we learn from our OGs if, if, if they're willing to hand the game down. So to your point, I do feel like the league needs to have at least one vet on every team. I think is important, even if it doesn't count against the salary cap, or if it's just an extra position just to have, because there's a lot of guys, it's, it's hard for some of these guys to let the game go. You know, so I'm sure you can find older guys that still want to be around the team. They may not have it, but I'm saying their knowledge, their wisdom, their leadership in that locker room, you can't put a price on that. But I don't think management is in touch enough with what the really vibe in the locker room is.

• 32:31Speaker 03

  But what, but just quick, the angle of, like UD with Lance Stevenson, when Lance took a shot at D Wade and UD came off the bench and just, everybody knew, he said, I'm gonna fuck you up.

• 32:40Speaker 02

  Period.

• 32:41Speaker 03

  Those dudes aren't around no more.

• 32:43Speaker 02

  San Antonio needs that for Wimpy, because everyone's taking shots and well, I said they need a Wimpy protector. Like, there, I think it's needed. I, I think it's def, especially in our sport, because I mean, you guys can, you know, there's a way for you guys to fit, like, literally hit each other and not get in trouble. We can't really do that shit. But I feel like there's a lot of guys that do sucker shit because there's not, they know they can skate with it no more. You can skate around. Ain't, ain't nobody gonna check you for it. So I definitely feel like they still need the enforcer, or, or, or whether it's enforcer or a vet, I feel like every team needs one.

• 33:11Speaker 04

  And people, people always have this conversation, always this debate, football, basketball, tough sport, can this player, you know, convert to play this sport, or what have you. You and Shady were on the special forces, world's toughest test.

• 33:26Speaker 02

  Crazy. On Fox every Thursday night, check it out.

• 33:29Speaker 04

  So we got a basketball player and a football player. Nobody gonna expect a football player to tap out.

• 33:35Speaker 02

  He made y'all look bad.

• 33:37Speaker 04

  What, what, what happened?

• 33:38Speaker 02

  It wasn't planned though. At first, so me and Shady, I think we got there, I got there the day after him. And I was excited because I really didn't know about, nobody else. And he was talking this big game, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that. And then one day, he's like, you know, the money's guaranteed, right? I'm like, yeah, I might just leave. That motherfucker left the second day, like, he left like eight hours into the show.

• 33:59Speaker 04

  Shut up.

• 34:00Speaker 02

  And I was disappointed too, because I'm like, bro, what the fuck? Like, he was really the, I mean, there was other, there was a boxer there, Alicia Bumgarner, and there was a, you know, Olympics figure skater, but Shady, and he came in talking, they asked him who he was, I'm Shady McCoy, one of the greatest running backs ever. I'm like, alright, my homeboy's here to play. You know what I mean? And then literally the next day, he left in the morning, like at 5:30 in the morning. So Shady, that was the bullshit, bro.

• 34:24Speaker 04

  Onto another question. So you, you speak Holly or Jack, man? I love the brotherhood that I see, man. You both stand on business. Both of you guys seem to have rather short fuses at times.

• 34:37Channing Crowder?

  Same.

• 34:38Speaker 04

  At times. They're smart guys. Who's gonna step on who's fuse first, though?

• 34:46Speaker 02

  I'm, I, I think I'm to the point where I can, I think, to be honest with you, I had a short fuse, but his shit was shorter.

• 34:52Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 34:53Speaker 02

  So, you know, I mean, obviously, you seen him go in the stands and do all kinds of shit. So I feel like my shit, Jack is someone that'll talk shit and some shit might derive from it. I'm someone that you have to talk shit to me first to kind of get me going, because I'm not about talking shit. I just wanna either play or we can fight. There's no need to talk, kind of in my opinion. But Jack is someone who kind of different. You know, Jack had more of an offensive bag than, than I did, so he would be someone that would talk shit and, and, and smoke would come from him at some time. But if one of us had to be like the level-headed one, it's crazy I'm even saying it would be me. And that's, I mean, that's a lesser of two evils, I think, you know, so.

• 35:32Speaker 04

  You, you mentioned smoke, right? And smoke can come from, what, what did the name come from? Like, I don't follow.

• 35:37Speaker 02

  My sister actually came up with it, bro. So I came up with this idea, I didn't know what a pod was, but I knew, I was doing ESPN, he was doing Fox, and we were having some success. And I'm just like, let's do a pod. And, and he's like, what is that? I was like, I don't really know, but I know, you know, it's a little less, I've always been a habitual one-line stepper. I'm surprised I lasted as long as I did at ESPN, almost four years. Like, that's the longest I lasted at anything outside the NBA, like, you know what I mean? So I'm surprised I lasted that, but I just felt like, you know, I think we could, you know, we could be a little bit more us. We could drink, let's be the first athlete to smoke on TV. Like, that was kind of my mindset. So I went and ran with it, but we put like a contest out to social media, like, yo, what should our, what should our duo be? What, what should our name be? And I was like, I'll give, I think I said 25 or 3,000 to the winner. And then my sister said All the Smoke.

• 36:22Speaker 02

  And I'm like, oh shit, All the Smoke. I was like, I already give you enough money, you ain't getting shit. My sister came up with the name, bro, and now we've been able to turn that show into an entire company.

• 36:33Channing Crowder?

  I want to say that to you, man, you know, just the, the inspiration of seeing you do it at, at such a high level, but I also believe it's difficult to not only be able to evaluate talent, but put that talent in places where it's able to thrive. When you guys came up with the original idea, was what you're building now always part of your vision?

• 36:58Speaker 02

  It was for me. You know, like I said, I didn't know what we were, what we were building, but I knew once we built it, it was good. You know, we came out and won Sports Pod of the Year our first year. You know what I mean? And that's against the Colin Cowherds and the Skip Baylases and all the voices that have been in the space for a long time. So I knew we had something good. But I always told myself, like, I want to be the Ken and Ivory Wayans of this shit. Like, I want to learn this space, put other people on and let them fly free. And, you know, lo and behold, five years into All the Smoke, you know, the Paramount takeover comes, and they don't know if they're gonna keep sports. I had always, from day one, been in the contract negotiations. When Showtime came back with bullshit offers, I, I took the show and shopped it to other things and learned a lot of shit.

• 37:39Speaker 02

  I think I was the first one to get an audio deal and a visual deal. You know, at first, it was just, you're getting paid for this. And then when Showtime bullshit with our first, after our first contract, I shopped the audio side. So I got iHeart, I'm like, yo, the, Showtime finally came back with a reasonable number. I was like, well, I like what iHeart's doing too. They're like, well, hey, how about we just do both of these? So we were able to get double.

• 37:59Speaker 04

  Visual and audio.

• 38:00Speaker 02

  Audio, you know what I mean? So we did that. But just learning the space, new, you know, obviously, added value, because there was no, there was no bar at the time. You know, when we started this shit in, in, I think it was 18 or 19, it was, we were one of the first to do it, you know what I mean? So there was no standard there. So I had to really learn the space and understand the space. And then fast forward to Paramount Takeover, you know, I, I started All the Smoke Productions and knew that, you know, Brian Daley was someone who took a chance on me. He was the second in, in charge of Showtime Sports. I knew when his non-compete would up, I'd bring him over, and he's now the president of, of my company. But I knew that I'd studied behind the scenes enough and we were good at what we did. I felt like that we can expand that in different spaces. You know what I mean?

• 38:42Speaker 02

  So now we do boxing, and, you know, obviously, Jack and I are both big Fox, boxing fans. Who's someone in the space that we can find and put on?

• 38:50Channing Crowder?

  Excellent.

• 38:51Speaker 02

  Andre Ward came to, you know, came to the name. And then found him, and then who else can we add but Andre? Roy Jones came along. I'm just like, those are two of the greatest to ever do it. I started doing the boxing space, we handed, you know, I started doing some boxing stuff with them, handed it off to them, and now Andre is the head of that vertical. You know, the baseball space came along. I'm a huge fan of baseball, played all the way through high school. I started doing that space, I'm gonna stay in that space, but then I also found a vet, Harold Reynolds. So Harold Reynolds is now the head of the All the Smoke baseball, you know, and he's one of the greatest personalities baseball's ever seen.

• 39:24Speaker 04

  Harold's baseball, yeah.

• 39:25Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? We've launched the, the football side, and I told you this earlier, you know, Netflix came to us to produce Michael Irvin's show. So I showed you the set we built, you know, on the third floor of our, our, our building. Now we're producing the football side, and then, you know, so that, that had us foot in with the football work with Netflix. And then who else can we add to, to the table? Then we bring Keyshawn Johnson and Willie McGinnis in on the football side. You know what I mean? So we're about to, we have the basketball side covered, you know, we helped produce Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce's shit. So we're doing just a bunch of different things, you know? I'm fortunate enough, we probably have about, between MMA, boxing, football, basketball, baseball, we have about 11 or 12 shows now. You know what I mean? And we just got a little money, got a little investment, a little cash infusion to the company, so we're about to launch.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  A political vertical, a golf vertical, and a music vertical. You know what I mean? So, you know, to your point, when I was interviewing on my show earlier today, make sure you check out All the Smoke Unplugged with my boy Ryan on it. You know, we're building a digital network. You know what I mean? And I think that, you know, it's time, it's important. I always wanted to give my brothers and sisters an opportunity to come tell their story. You know what I mean? Whether I'm interviewing them or not, and now we're giving people an opportunity to really be in these spaces and have equity in these spaces and help continuing to tell stories. You know what I mean? So, we're in the, you know, obviously making pods and shows and scripted, non-scripted docs. Like, we're kind of moving in all these different spaces now. So, you know, every step of the way, you know, when we're talking about, you know,

• 40:55Speaker 02

  what you're doing now with, you know, your...

• 40:58Channing Crowder?

  The sports show.

• 40:58Speaker 02

  Your sports show. You have, all you guys wear many hats in that. You know what I mean? And I'm someone in my company, being the CEO, that I wear several hats. You know, I'm not one of those guys that sit back and, okay, what's going on now? Like, nah, I'm on these calls, I'm on these daily calls. I always tell my team, hey, if it helps, you know, if you need me to get on a call, just let me know, just give me a heads up. I'll do whatever it takes to kind of, you know, make shit go. So, you know, I'm building a small network and, you know, continuing to just push the line and hopefully inspire others to do the same thing because I think it's important now that we take over our narrative. I think we're articulate enough to tell our own stories, we're creative enough to tell our own stories, and we have the best stories. You know what I mean? So, why not? Why share shit with other people when we could create it and share it with the people

• 41:39Speaker 02

  that the stories are coming from and, you know, continue to make people happy with the stories we're telling?

• 41:45Channing Crowder?

  I love it. And is Kevin Garnett a real person? Like, is KG really like that, though?

• 41:49Speaker 02

  Unbelievable. On and off the camera.

• 41:50Channing Crowder?

  Is that all the time?

• 41:51Speaker 02

  It's not an act. It's not an act. See, that's why I think he goes to bed early and wakes up early, too. Like, he really has to charge his batteries every day. Because the person you see on camera is the exact same person you see off the camera. You know what I mean? And like, Ticket is Ticket. And it's dope because I never really knew him. I was always just such a huge fan while we played. We almost fought a couple of different times, and then, once we were done playing, we became cool. You know what I mean? And he's, he let me in. You know, he doesn't let too many people in. And, you know, just shooting the shit with him and seeing his vision, understanding how he works, being one of the greatest players to ever, ever do it. But, you know, it all started back when he was our first live show in Chicago in like two, the year we launched. You know, we did All the Smoke Live at All-Star in Chicago.

• 42:35Speaker 02

  This motherfucker sweating, telling MJ stories. I was like, oh, this dude's incredible. Like, I gotta find some way to work with him.

• 42:40Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 42:40Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? And to this day, shit, nearly eight years later, but literally, we just did our show last week, and so many of the pieces went viral. Like, his team finally hit my team, like, hey, let's do something like, monthly or something. You know what I mean? Because, you know, obviously, he works with Paul and I work with Stack, but there's magic there between me and Ticket. So, he's everything you see and more, bro. Great dude, give you the shirt off his back, he's gonna tell you how he really is, and if you don't like it, you don't give a fuck.

• 43:03Channing Crowder?

  Bro, I just saw, I saw a clip of him doing something for this documentary, and he kept standing up screaming at the mic. Like, he would talk here, he'd stand up, he'd scream at the mic with the mic right here in his face, like, they couldn't hear him. And then he'd sit back down. And I was like, ain't no way, this is a real human, bro, that's doing this. And he was 100% dead ass.

• 43:26Speaker 02

  Ticket is special.

• 43:27Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 43:28Speaker 03

  Did you, did you get pushback when you were trying to do that? Because you're going against, like, we're going against the grain, too. We're all going against the grain.

• 43:34Speaker 02

  No, you know, it's funny, I asked Ryan that because I felt at ESPN at one point were, you know, All the Smoke was blowing up, and they're using my shit on NBA Today daily, and all of a sudden it stopped. I'm like, what the fuck? Like, it's great engagement, people were vibing and feeling it and loving the segments, loving the interview, and all of a sudden it stopped. Like, y'all don't like that shit, y'all don't like that my shit is getting bigger. You know what I mean? And that's what I asked Ryan, too, is the success from what you guys have built here, was that ever held against you? You know what I mean? Because I felt like ESPN had always tried to find, and it's funny, he literally said it today, they always tried to kind of find, like, how can we amplify that podcast space? Like, we've got this live shit. They kill it, that's their shit. How can we get in this next iteration of pods?

• 44:19Speaker 02

  And they never, you know, they never really found it, but at the same time, you got a man with one of the biggest sports podcasts in the world, right here, under your umbrella, and you don't utilize it.

• 44:26Channing Crowder?

  No.

• 44:27Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? So, I think it used to be, old media, we needed those. We needed those big machines. And I was at ESPN for, you know, almost four years, and there was some weird shit that went on, but I had a great time, and I think I learned a lot, and it kept me visible, and it prepared me to go on and do what I'm doing now. You know? But I don't think, you don't need those big machines anymore. You know, if you've got some shit to say and a nice production, you can go viral with just what you have, with you and your homies. You know what I mean? Because I think people want to see that real, authentic side anyway. I mean, I think as a, because I'm a fan now, 10 out of 10 times, I'd rather hear from an athlete. I don't give a fuck who you are, respectfully. I would rather hear from an athlete because in that sport, they did it. You know, I'm not saying the people that didn't do, that didn't play in the sport

• 45:12Speaker 02

  can't articulate it, but you can articulate it and feel it the way we felt it.

• 45:17Speaker 04

  With the recent announcement Paul made about his financial situation, and there've been many, many other guys before Paul, both sports, all sports, actually. What can we do with these platforms to sort of? And then, let me also add that the younger players in college getting the NIL money, having that responsibility a lot earlier and sooner than we obviously had it. What can we do with these platforms to kind of help circumvent these things continuing to happen, if anything, that comes to mind?

• 45:51Speaker 02

  First of all, I think Paul Pierce is really smart, and I'm just gonna leave it there because he's got a lot of shit going on. I think Paul Pierce is really smart. What we can do is, is I don't think we, we didn't come from an era where financial literacy was cool.

• 46:04Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 46:04Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? Like, we in the, you know, we all know, I know in the basketball, we're talking about rims, we're talking about cars, jewelry, and women. You know what I mean? That's what we talked about. But what I found really interesting was, you know, my last year in Golden State, they're talking about so-and-so from Silicon Valley is gonna be here. Did you get in on this deal? Check this deal out. Do you guys want to invest? And it gave me chills, it gave me chills, and I'm just telling you guys about it right now because that's what the fuck the shit should have been. You know what I mean? So, I feel like this generation of athlete, I don't think, one, the money is so much more than we got, and we all played a lot, you know, a big part in that. Our generations played a big part in the money getting to where it's at. But at the same time, financial literacy is cool now. You know what I mean? And they're getting it at an early age, and I think they need to keep their foot on the gas because I feel like this NIL thing is great.

• 46:47Speaker 02

  We all felt like we made our schools a bunch of money, and we should have got a piece of it, and we didn't. But now that the kids are getting money, there needs to be some guardrails for it because it's a little wild right now with all the different rules and agents taking 20% of shit. It's really nasty out there right now because I came from food stamps. You know, my parents didn't give me shit to go to UCLA. You know what I mean? So, I couldn't imagine, can I, let me get 50,000, 200,000, 2 million? Man, I was broke the first four years in the NBA because I didn't know how to handle my money. You know what I mean? So, it's just like, the education has to continue, it has to be an ongoing conversation. But I think as a whole, the conversation of financial literacy, investing your money and saving your money is much more prevalent and around locker rooms now than it was when we played.

• 47:32Speaker 04

  And with your boys going D1 now, you not, you coming from food stamps, they didn't come from that. They had a much better life upbringing than you had. What are those conversations like? Do you have to fend off agents, or do you kind of help steer them?

• 47:46Speaker 02

  You know what's funny is that agents don't really come at me. They might come at their mom, but they just don't, like, those are my babies. I don't, I don't need none of the shit you could offer right now at this point. My kids don't need NIL money. My kids need to stay focused. You know, like, with the twins, there was a steady plan, like, it was funny because I just said I'm gonna push my seven-year-old, who, baby Joker, baby Shaq, a little bit harder than I pushed the twins because the twins were around it. They came to my games, they were in the locker room, they flew on planes with the Warriors, they're, we're in the Western Conference Finals, and my twins are shooting with KD and Steph, you know, right before we're about to go to the Finals. Like, they saw it, they lived it, but at the same time, they loved to play video games, and they didn't really start training until they're maybe 13 or 14. So, they're 17 now, and I've seen the huge jumps and the elevations in their game. But Ashton saw that, and he wants to jump on it now, and I kind of like it because

• 48:31Speaker 02

  I was super, I never wanted to be one of those dads that vicariously lived with my kids. Like, you have to do this. The fact that my two youngest, because I got a two-year-old, too, who's always out there with us, like, they've seen their bigger brothers do it, so now they want to do it. Like, when me and Ticket talked about Ashton the other day, that shit did 3 million views in less than 36 hours. You know what I mean? And Ashton came to me and said, Dad, one of my teachers pulled a video up of me today. He's like, Dad, am I famous? I'm like, bro, you might be. And ever since then, like I'm tell you to the, and as soon as I go home, I got a softball game. I told Ryan this way he had to move it up, but we're gonna get some shots up before I go to my softball. He like, he wants to do it. And I'm like, Dad, let's get out there. Dad, let's do it. And when he's asking, I gotta provide that. You know what I mean? So it's, it's really kind of just a cool feeling to be able to navigate this.

• 49:15Speaker 02

  You know, it's such a nasty, you sports, I mean, we could spend a whole day on that whole conversation. It's a money grab, you know, but I wanted to be by my kid's side because I knew how nasty it was. But I also know that I didn't want my kids to plateau in high school. Like, the best from Isaiah and Carter is still yet to come. And they're getting bigger, stronger, faster and better. Kind of late bloomers, but I guarantee we're gonna continue to make big jumps every year. Um, and it's just, I tell people, man, I got to play a long time professionally, won a championship, but nothing brings me more joy than seeing my children smile, succeed and have fun in something they love doing, whether it's sports or not. Like, that's life for me.

• 49:51Channing Crowder?

  No, that's, I think that we always have that, that conversation and, you know, I got to watch my son play through college and play in the league and I'm so nervous every snap he's out there.

• 50:02Speaker 02

  And I never got, I never got nervous during the game at all. Like, my hands didn't sweat. I'm not none of this shit because, especially because I was, you know, smoking before the game. I'm locked in, I'm ready to go. I didn't give a fuck about nothing. I, I, I ain't brought that on. But when the Twins are playing, I'm on my hands, I'm over here fucking looking at my nails. Like, and I'm just like, oh, my babies are about to go to work, but there's no feeling like it and I absolutely love it.

• 50:21Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, I mean, and that's the, it's the great feeling of caring about something that much.

• 50:26Speaker 02

  Something bigger than you.

• 50:27Channing Crowder?

  Yeah, you know what I mean? It's just like, their, their lows, you know, you gotta play it off in front of them, but you hurting more than they are.

• 50:34Speaker 02

  Oh, man.

• 50:35Channing Crowder?

  You know, and, and when they succeed, that, that level of joy, like, it truly can't be, like, it just, you just can't put it into words.

• 50:42Speaker 02

  Well, you gotta think too, we're the only men that our sons and daughters or mom, or our, our sons and daughters, our, our, us and our wives are gonna be the only ones that wanna see you do better than them.

• 50:54Channing Crowder?

  Yes, it is.

• 50:54Speaker 02

  Like, we're the, I'm, my, with my sons, I'm the only man in the world that wants to see you do better than me. Everyone else does not, they can act like that shit, but they really don't wanna see it. Like, I don't want nothing from you, I just want you to do better and be better in every aspect for me. And, and having that kind of love to give to something else is special.

• 51:10Channing Crowder?

  Outside of your kids, Matt, what is the thing that you've done, accomplished, changed, that you're most proud of?

• 51:20Speaker 02

  Um, I think always being a provider for so many people and that shit's getting a little bit old, but I, I continue to do it. And then I just think giving people opportunities. You know what I mean? I have between 60 and 70 people that work for all the smoke productions now. Um, I've put on numerous, and I say this humbly, I've put on Hall of Famers, some of the greatest to do it. And I give them opportunities under my platform. You know what I mean? And we continue to build, we continue to do it together. And I just think that's what I'm most proud of is being able to inspire whoever it may be. Like I said, I know who I was as a player, but I also humbly know who I am in this space. And I'm an All-Star in this, I'm a Hall of Famer in this space. I say this respectfully.

• 52:01Speaker 02

  So to be able to have the chance to open the doors up to my brothers and sisters, no matter what type of player you are, what type of person you are, I, I think that's what I, I hang my hat on is providing opportunity, inspiring people. Cause I feel like, you know, as Nip said, that's the highest human act is, is to inspire. So to be able to inspire people, um, is definitely what I'm most proud of.

• 52:18Channing Crowder?

  I, I, you know, we had that conversation, man. I think you have, from the, the player perspective to this part of your second act, you have become the tone setter, right? You are showing that you don't have to, cause I was just always like, you gotta be the Hall of Famer or you gotta, you're showing that you don't have to if you put the work in and you dedicate to it. And also too, man, you treat people and do people right.

• 52:43Speaker 02

  Right. I think that goes a long way. I remember having, you know, we did Kobe's last interview, unfortunately. But he said, I think during the interview, or, or maybe it was in his office before, like, we're naturally be good if we apply ourselves because we're so disciplined as athletes. You know, we're getting up at the crack of dawn and having to fucking run the track or lift weights. Now we get up at the crack of dawn and, and, and, you know, drink coffee and, and get on the email. You know what I mean? So if we have just applied that same dedication and morals and values and, and discipline we had for sports to business, we're gonna win. Because I, business is about outworking people, just like sports is. And, you know, I think that's why some of us have been able to be in this space and then some of us have been able to build platforms and build good teams around us. And that's what I salute you guys for, especially you two. You know what I mean?

• 53:25Speaker 02

  To be able to just like, hey, if you're in it, I'm in it. You know what I mean? And for you guys to start what you guys have started and have that flip into pivot sports. And I'm sure that's just the beginning of a bunch of other shit you guys are gonna do as a team and stuff you guys will do individually under that umbrella. Like, providing those opportunities is, is special. And you gotta think like, we're showing the next generation how to, people don't grow up anymore wanting to be, respectfully, the Steven As or the Stuart Scotts or any of these. They wanna do, I wanna do what Ryan does. I wanna do what Channing does. I wanna do what Fred does. I wanna do what Pat does. You know what I mean? And I think a lot of responsibility comes with that and we gotta continue to, you know, keep the light on and show people the way.

• 54:01Channing Crowder?

  How often, and they all, they're gonna laugh, but how often do you think back to the gems or just the lessons or even the conversation you had with Kobe and having?

• 54:11Speaker 02

  Often, often, man, because I, I mean, I was, I feel like I was fortunate enough to see the other side. And he didn't let a lot of people in. You know what I mean? Everyone used to tell me like, how the fuck did you get Kobe to come out? And Kobe used to be the one hitting me to go out. You know, Kobe was the first one that got me suited and booted and then these Grammy parties and Emmy parties and all this fancy shit that I would've never seen. You know what I mean? And we sat and talked business, we sat and talked life, we sat and talked fatherhood, you know, fatherhood. Kobe used to come, my twins, when my twins were eight years old, seven, eight years old, cause we played out in Orange County, he would be coaching Gigi. Kobe would come to a, a seven U game. And if you guys ain't know, that shit is a shit show. And Kobe, Kobe would show up at eight o'clock in the morning to watch the Twins. You know what I mean? And then, you know, we, about 10 o'clock, Gigi would play and we'd go watch Gigi.

• 54:56Speaker 02

  You know what I mean? So just being able to see the other side and, and, and really become more than teammates, become brothers. And again, him, like I just told you, the business quote he told me, like, you know, we're meant, we're built for this shit. Just learning and seeing him and, and soaking up so much game, um, on and off the court from him was, um, huge. And, and that's why I feel like me and Stack try to hold his legacy down so much. Because there's so much fucked shit going on and people talking about should've, could've, would've. If I had this or I had that, I would've been better. And like, no motherfucker, you wouldn't. And if you thought you would, you would've said it while he was here. Like, why say it when he's gone? If you felt that way, like, if I had this person, I would've did better than, nigga'd say it when he was here. You know, you could've did that, but you didn't because you know better. Because I never met someone that was more dedicated and worked harder in my life.

• 55:39Speaker 02

  And I played with Allen Iverson, I played with Chris Paul, Blake Griffin, I played with Shaq. I played with some real superstars, Steph, KD. I've never seen nobody work like Kobe.

• 55:49Speaker 04

  How did you deal with the news when he passed?

• 55:51Speaker 02

  It was tough, man. We were at my house at, at the time, cause I had to, still have my space in the Bay. We were in the Bay and the, with the Twins basketball team, we had a tournament. And he was Uncle Kobe. Like, ever since he met the Twins at four years old, every single shoe dropped, they got it. And then once they were on a team and I was coaching them, every single kid got his shoe. So I remember we were, we were downstairs in my room with a couple of the dads and we were kinda just having a drink and, and, and fellowship and a little bit before we went to the game. And the Twins were on the, Twins and their teammate were on the third floor in the game room. And one of the dads said Kobe died. And I didn't even pay him no mind. I kept doing what I was doing. And then like 30 seconds, I was like, yo, somebody just told me Kobe died. And I'm like, what? No, no. Like, yeah, he was on the helicopter. And then when we first heard that, a bunch of people were saying, who else allegedly was on the helicopter? So we're hearing all a bunch of crazy names.

• 56:35Speaker 02

  And then when it was confirmed on the news, I just froze, bro. I didn't know what to think, you know? Because I feel like he was a star and, and one of the greatest, but in LA, he was like a superhero. And, and superheroes don't die. You know, superheroes are supposed to be immortal. And, and, and that's how a lot of us looked at, looked at Kobe. So when, when, when we heard he passed, it was, it was heavy. And obviously then finding out when Gigi was on the helicopter with them, it added that much more realness to the unfortunate situation, you know? So, and, and, and the thing of, you know, obviously I know Vanessa really well and the family, but I also know Shayya and, and her sister Sharia, and I know Pam and rest in peace, Joe, Pops. I know everybody. You know what I mean?

• 57:17Speaker 02

  So just to have to see all that they had to deal with. Um, and then, you know, for Vanessa to lose not only your husband, but your daughter, it's, it's, it's next level, man. So, you know, still to this day in, in very close contact with Vanessa and, and Shayya is my wife's best friend. And, you know, I still see Pam when I go out to Vegas. To this day, Vanessa still loads the Twins up, cause Kobe used to always send, Vanessa sent a box, bro. And I kid you not, I think they put on their Instagram, she sent like four huge boxes. And it had the Twins name on it. And I opened them shits up and they're all Kobe's. Like, 30 pair. I'm like, god damn, I couldn't get one pair of these muffins. She sent like 30 pairs of size 13 Kobe's, all different colorways and all this shit. I'm like, holy shit. But it just showed like,

• 57:59Channing Crowder?

  Love, man.

• 58:00Speaker 02

  Kobe made a huge impact on the Twins and Vanessa realized that and, and, and picked up where, you know, Kobe left it. So it's just, I have nothing but good things to say about that entire family, man. I love them.

• 58:11Channing Crowder?

  It's awesome.

• 58:11Speaker 02

  And, uh, yeah, I, I, I think we all miss Kobe.

• 58:15Speaker 04

  It's crazy you just found out about the Marshals League too. Was it Marshals or Rust?

• 58:19Speaker 02

  Uh, Nordstrom Rack.

• 58:20Speaker 04

  Nordstrom Rack.

• 58:21Channing Crowder?

  He was firing up on the pitch to carry him home.

• 58:24Speaker 02

  Let me tell you guys this shit though, not to cut you off Fred, but Peter Nordstrom hit me, who was like a third generation.

• 58:33Speaker 02

  He got it, he said he got, he knew my old agent and he's a Seattle guy and he texts me like, "Hey, this is Peter Nordstrom from Nordstrom's." You know, we saw your, I literally just had a call with him yesterday, bro. And he's just like, you know, "We pay for what you gave us and what you gave us, we get, we got so much more out of that than anything we've ever paid for, like your authenticity, how genuine you..." Because I was really surprised, like I was fucking blown, I went in there to get underwear.

• 58:57Channing Crowder?

  You were genuinely happy.

• 58:58Speaker 02

  Yeah, I was super happy. I went in there to get underwear for my two-year-old and my seven-year-old, like both these motherfuckers are growing like weeds, let me go in there and get some Jonies for them. I went in there and then I saw like a large shoes. I'm like, "Lord, let me see what they got in there." Bro, they had everything in there. I was like, "What the fuck is this?" And they had like all the way up to like size 18, you know what I mean? Like, it's hard to find 14s and 15s these days and I went in there and ate up.

• 59:23Channing Crowder?

  He was talking about these like, "See these, that's easily over 265."

• 59:29Speaker 02

  Because you gotta think, I buy shoes for my kids all the time and so I don't really get shit for me, so I know what shoes are going for and I'm seeing these $220 shoes for 79, I'm like, "What? I want all of them."

• 59:40Speaker 04

  The red bottoms and everything in North America.

• 59:43Speaker 02

  They got everything in there, bro.

• 59:44Speaker 04

  But no, seven years is amazing what can happen in seven, eight years or so. To go from not even knowing what a podcast was to have your own production company, I think is really dope. So I gotta ask you what I ask all of the guests, or what we ask all of the guests. Your biggest pivot in life, that's the moment you can look back on and say, "Because of it, I am who I am today."

• 1:00:05Speaker 02

  I think my biggest pivot in life is meeting my wife. Because I wasn't ready for her when she came and I almost lost her, but the fact that she stood by me and made me want to change. I've been with other women, I've been with plenty of women and no one ever made me want to be better. No one ever made me want to address my issues, my childhood, the trauma, my, you know, areas I struggle in. And she's made me want to be better. So I would definitely say my biggest pivot is her sticking by my side and having, although she gets crazy sometimes, her having the patience to deal with someone like me because even though on camera I can put it together pretty well, sometimes off-camera I'm a mess, you know what I mean?

• 1:00:50Speaker 02

  I think like all of us are, so I would definitely say my biggest pivot is having a strong, loving, God-fearing woman, mother in my corner, just to help me be better.

• 1:01:06Channing Crowder?

  And man, you know, we had the conversation earlier, but I truly am inspired and I look to see the things that you are accomplishing. Not only one, because I think it's a blueprint into what we can do and move forward into, but like I'm genuinely happy for you.

• 1:01:24Speaker 02

  Thank you, bro.

• 1:01:24Channing Crowder?

  You know what I'm saying? Like the ability to stay authentically you, but also grow in these spaces where I know you can walk into any room and have any business conversation and educate people on growth, both financially but as an entrepreneur, man. I think those are conversations that don't happen enough in our communities, that you could be the person that could go to any high school, any city, any YMCA, any Boys and Girls Club, and people could learn a lot, man, and just get a lot from you. So I appreciate your time, for real.

• 1:01:56Speaker 02

  And I feel the same way for you and I think, I think it's telling that people who stay themselves end up being able to build in this space, you know what I mean? There's other people in this space with bigger names than both of us. But you and I are both very unapologetically ourself. Like we may not always be right, but we're real. And if one door closes, another door is gonna open. Like I'm thinking like, "Damn, is this the end of all the smoke?" When Paramount comes in and buy and we know, is it the Ellison family? That's owning all the fucking, the conglomerate of networks now? Like, "Damn, what are we gonna do?" Like, "No, fuck this, I'm gonna build my own production company, let's go." And then the word got out and we signed a big old deal with DraftKings and were able to build something out. And then, you know, one door shuts for you and they tried to shit on you and embarrass you, but you didn't let that define you, you know what I mean?

• 1:02:41Speaker 02

  And Mr. Schultz comes through and now you guys are pouring gas on this and building other shit and about to build a whole thing. So again, everything you said to me, I can say back to all three of you guys because it takes a team, you know, even you throw Alicia in there and everybody, like it takes a strong team, a smart team, a team that's willing to sacrifice for each other to be able to build in this space. And I feel like I got, you know, the best team in the world and I'm sure you guys feel the same way because that's what it's gonna take to continue to build out these platforms that we're building and giving other people opportunities to thrive on.

• 1:03:13Channing Crowder?

  Nah, man, I appreciate you, my dog, for real, man. Always been a real one.