Monica McNutt Emmy Winning Analyst tells all: from being let go and almost giving up to the First Take controversy, current relationship with Stephen A Smith, WNBA truths, double standards and her meteoric rise making history with the Knicks

Emmy Award-winning analyst Monica McNutt joins The Pivot Podcast for a powerful, unfiltered conversation about the setbacks, sacrifices, and defining moments that shaped her journey from Georgetown basketball player to one of the most recognizable voices in sports media. Before the national spotlight, there was life after basketball, trying to figure out what came next, navigating the working world, getting laid off, and moving back home with her parents. Monica opens up about what it really looks like when the plan doesn't go as expected, the humbling moments behind the success, and the resilience it takes to bet on yourself when the future is uncertain. She takes us behind the scenes of her rise in sports media, including her unforgettable appearance on First Take and the heated exchange that helped catapult her career into a new stratosphere. But was that moment a turning point, or simply the moment the world finally caught up to the work she had already been putting in? From covering the WNBA and earning respect in a male-dominated industry to calling a championship moment for the New York Knicks, Monica reflects on what it means to break barriers, command a room, and use her voice without asking for permission. She also gets real about being outspoken, facing criticism, navigating double standards, and why she refuses to shrink herself to make other people comfortable. This is bigger than basketball. It's a conversation about identity, rejection, family, confidence, and finding your purpose when life forces you to take a different route. Monica's story is a reminder that sometimes the moments that feel like setbacks are the very things that position you for your breakthrough. Don't miss this conversation as Ryan, Channing, and Fred sit down with Monica McNutt to talk about the journey behind the accolades, the truth behind the headlines, and what it takes to turn adversity into opportunity. Because sometimes, the pivot is the whole point. Full Video Episode out now on Netflix. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:26Speaker 01

  Monica McNutt is a Hooper at heart. And when her Georgetown Hoyas were eliminated from the tourney by the UConn Huskies, letting go of that playing career wasn't really that easy. But almost immediately, it felt like she had a plan. She would go into sports media. This was said calmly and with enthusiasm before she broke down crying on the bus on the way back to school. And if you look at her today, an ESPN, NBA and WNBA analyst, an Emmy-winning star of the MSG Network. It feels like that all worked out perfectly. But it wasn't that simple. Two years after moving to Florida for a new job, she was laid off. Back at home, living with her parents, trying to figure out what comes next. Monica calls that period of her life the most important 18 months of her career.

• 1:11Speaker 01

  Today, she takes us back to that season. The people she poured into, the work she put in, and the break that put her on the right path. She opens up about her relationship with Stephen A. And the day on First Take that changed everything. Takes us inside the New York Knicks championship run and explains what it means to be embraced by a city that made her one of its own. And you know, we couldn't let Monica leave without actually talking hoop. We talked about her playing career, the reality of it ending, and the state of the women's game, the stars, the WNBA finals, and how she feels about the way the game is covered. And of course, you know, we had to get some jokes off about her getting them toes done on air. And find out what was really going on with her beef with the Swifties.

• 1:55Speaker 01

  This is a conversation that had a little bit of everything and truly left me feeling like it was long overdue. So Pivot fam, please welcome my friend and the incomparable Monica McNutt to the Pivot.

• 2:27Speaker 01

  Monica McNutt, welcome to the Pivot. We're so excited to have you. This is Channing Crowder, this is Fred Taylor, Ryan Clark. Pivot fam, thank y'all for pivoting with us. Um, I'm excited about this for so many reasons. One, I think you're amazing at your job. But I also know that sometimes people don't necessarily think about the person that they get to watch every day do something and talk about something that they love. So I'm excited about that. I want to go back though to what can be intimidating, okay? On First Take, right? Old Stevie A, you know what I mean? Shannon Shaw, he was like, "Skilp, skilp."

• 3:08Speaker 01

  But you know, one of the moments that I felt like changed the trajectory of your career, especially as it goes with ESPN, was you were like, you were honest. You were like, "Stephen A, you could have been doing this. And you could have done this for years." And sometimes those moments bring like a little unwanted fame as well. In a moment that felt like it was overnight, but it had been building for decades for you, what was it like when that went viral for the reasons it did?

• 3:38Speaker 02

  Man, RC, so funny enough, I, somebody tagged me in that clip. Probably like two weeks ago, and it's the first time I've watched it back.

• 3:46Speaker 02

  And I was like, "Oh yeah, you did go in with your whole chest." But as I have said, at that time, part of the confidence that I was operating with was an expectation of trust in a relationship that I thought was growing.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 4:03Speaker 02

  Not that it has not still, but at the time, to me, friendship, accountability, having relationships with people means you have the opportunity to call them to the carpet. And honest to God, I thought I was saying water was wet. Like I had no...

• 4:15Speaker 01

  So you're not, you're not like, "I'm telling Stephen A that he hasn't supported women."

• 4:19Speaker 02

  No, like I didn't think it was anything to discuss, to debate, to be excited about. Like I just, you know, it was just a fact for me. And so I think that moment, I had no anticipation of it becoming what it was. I do remember it being the first time that I got off of television and was shaking. But I think that was just because the nature of that show is embrace debate at the time, right? And so it was like, it was an intense and passionate debate. But I had no idea it was about to do what it did. Clueless.

• 4:44Speaker 01

  Yeah, y'all had Molly uncomfortable. Guys, 40 minutes, please, let me do my job, buddy.

• 4:52Speaker 01

  They're arguing daddy.

• 4:55Speaker 01

  But from that, as you were saying, you were a lot younger in the, in the business. Did it adjust when you pull out your, pull out the guns now?

• 5:03Speaker 02

  No, not really. I mean, Channing, again, like I think what has allowed me to be successful to this point is being very much myself, right? And that call out was not out of disrespect, it was out of the utmost respect. But the, but this is what the papers say, the documents say. Like it's kind of hard to debate this, you know what I mean? And so for me, I always try to go into conversations with someone respectful of them and respectful of the people that we're discussing. But I mean, yes, our business is the nature of communicating. And so sometimes you have to say hard things in a delicate way. But honesty is at the root of all of that. And so for me, I try to operate from an honest place.

• 5:38Speaker 01

  Love it.

• 5:38Speaker 03

  Right, RC forgot to mention another thing that excites him. You got on all this red and white today. You know who ready to shimmy? Old Kappa man.

• 5:46Speaker 01

  No, no. That ain't been a habit.

• 5:49Speaker 03

  But no, seriously though, with that though, or even following that, was there ever pressure for you to have to tone yourself down to, to fit the show?

• 5:59Speaker 02

  No, I think in following that, the brass at the time was like, everybody has strong opinions, that's the nature of the show, proceed. Like it wasn't, I will tell you now though, and this is three years later, two years later, whatever it is, my target demographic apparently is black men between the ages of 45 and 70. And every time they see me, they're like, "I love it when you gave him the business." I'm like, "That was two years ago." Like I don't even do that show like that anymore. But it, it was a moment that really resonated with folks. And I think at the heart of it to me was the way that we were discussing black women. And that did cause me to shake at the end of that interview because I am a black woman. I've grown up in that space. I've been mindful of the way that the W has expanded and we love it.

• 6:42Speaker 02

  But at the time, come on y'all, y'all are, I'm dealing with a Hall of Fame athlete. I'm dealing with someone who's covered sport forever. Let's not make this thing petty and dismiss these women as a collective, as athletes, and disrespect what they do on the court.

• 6:53Speaker 03

  Right, but even to be like 100 with everything, you say your target demographic is that age group. I mean, Stephen A isn't really doing himself a service of a lot of the recent comments. Like it kind of brought itself back to life.

• 7:08Speaker 02

  Yeah, I cannot speak to what he believes his mandates are moving forward. I think in that moment, he's been supportive still. I do think for me, there was a shift in our relationship and that's okay, right? And most of it was about the way that that was followed up more than that actual interaction. Because I think debate and disagreement is quite healthy as long as we go about it with respect for one another. All I know is that when I show up, the people that fuel me are the people who take their time and give me, offer their affirmations. Because it's a whole bunch of noise otherwise on the internet. And so I'm very appreciative of every girl that sees me, every little black girl that sees me, of every black man, every black woman, every white person, like people that take their time and share with me that they've connected from a place of authenticity. And that's what matters to me.

• 7:52Speaker 01

  Well, I think you've been truly authentic in the way that you do your job. And that doesn't have to be rehearsed or practiced, right? You can show up every day that way with consistency, which is what I love about you. But this hasn't been a linear journey for you in sports media. Tell me what it's like to move to Florida, get this job, two years later be laid off, and now be back with your parents in their home.

• 8:19Speaker 02

  Yeah, in hindsight, I can smile, I'm thinking about that stretch. But I remember very much going through it and being like, "What in the world?" Like I thought for sure when I left DC, I was on. Upward trajectory, never was going to come back. But I think for me, the stretch of time that I was back in DC with my folks is about 18 months. But it was a very important exercise in separating who I am from what I do.

• 8:40Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 8:40Speaker 02

  And that, I think, the nature of what we do, you know, RC, you in the space, right? Like we show up and it is very easy to allow what we do and who we are to be closely intertwined in a way that when the job is going left, it attacks your personal value and how you see yourself and your esteem. And so that stretch for me was an exercise in that. And I, I say this all the time, y'all, like, yes, I was broke, ain't handled jobs, trying to figure it out. But I also played in the rec league with my college teammates. Like I also was having lunch with my grandparents who are no longer here. I was picking up my guy kid who now is a sophomore in high school, like from school. Like I was doing all of these other things that filled my well and took care of my heart in a way that a profession just won't. Now, don't get me wrong, we love our paychecks. But I think being able to really relish that time and be present in that season of my life

• 9:25Speaker 02

  has altered the way I see this thing altogether.

• 9:27Speaker 01

  But how much of that was on purpose though? And what I mean by that is, looking back at it, you can say to yourself, "Okay, I got to do all of these things." In the moment, was your thought process though, "While I have this time, I'm going to take advantage of it?" Or did those things just kind of fill you while you weren't working?

• 9:49Speaker 02

  I was home for about two weeks. And I remember my mom, who was my girl, like that's my ace. She's like, "Are you mad at me?" And I was like, "What do you mean?" She's like, "You just seem off, like what's going on?" And I was like, "Mom, it's not you. I'm just so disappointed that we're back here, right?" But I think having that conversation with her was like, "Okay, God, let me recalibrate." Because there ain't no way that I want her to feel like I'm upset with her or I'm grateful with her, either one of my parents. My parents have been the foundation of my life and I owe them so much. And so I think from that conversation, it was like, "All right, let me go from all of this emotional anger, if you will, to what am I supposed to be learning in this season?"

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 10:26Speaker 02

  Right? And so for me, early on in that season, there was a shift in my mindset. What is in this season for me? And it didn't mean I still wasn't applying for jobs and connecting and trying to put together reels and hosting a little show and at Prince George's County Community Television at the time. Like I was still working toward it. But it was also like, what am I supposed to get in this season? And I think sometimes, shout out to all of the quotes and the bites that we get off of Instagram. I don't know who to attribute this to, but I saw it yesterday. The stillness is a good thing. You clear all the noise so you can get back to what actually matters. And I think that's what happened to me in that season.

• 10:57Speaker 01

  Yeah, shout out Prince George County. You like, "Boy, you are a proud PG man."

• 11:02Speaker 02

  Yes, sir. Yes, sir.

• 11:03Speaker 01

  Hey, everybody from there brought about it though.

• 11:05Speaker 02

  Yes, sir.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Sir, you say that eight times this morning. I'm like, "Okay, yes, I understand." Fellas, the NBA season is back and every team spent the entire offseason. Trying to get better.

• 11:18Speaker 04

  Man, who showed out the most? Big trades, big signings, new coaches, who did it?

• 11:22Speaker 03

  I think that's easy. A few teams had some work done. Philly, LeBron, Jaylen Brown.

• 11:27Speaker 04

  Boy, don't forget Miami now. Miami added Giannis, we added Klay, we got Tim Hardaway Jr. I think Miami gonna be special.

• 11:33Speaker 01

  Man, ain't nobody gonna set the world on fire like Ant and LaMelo now in Minnesota.

• 11:38Speaker 03

  True, that's true.

• 11:39Speaker 04

  And as soon as the season ends, they gotta ask, what can we do? You know, what can we do better?

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• 12:57Speaker 02

  Yeah, that was tough, too. You know, I think, it was, oh, man. I think down the stretch of my collegiate career, we were still playing. And I remember being a wreck, like an emotional wreck, like start crying over stuff. And my coach called my dad, and my dad was like, please stop talking to her about the end. Like, she's sad that it's coming to an end. If you leave her alone, she'll be all right. And that is ended up what happened. But one of my coaches, who's a good friend to this day, he was at my wedding. He was like, you was tripping, you couldn't even say nothing to you, you just bursting in tears over stupid shit. Like, what's wrong with you? I'm like, be gentle, like, I was emotional. That was tough, because I think for so long, and y'all know on a different level, too, right? Again, your identity is attached to what you do.

• 13:38Speaker 02

  And I think for me, in particular, even though I knew that I was probably not going to go pro, there were so many other accolades and opportunities that were associated with being a women's basketball player, particularly at Georgetown. And so there is this, I know that these skills are transferable, but how again, exactly? Like, what does that look like? And I chose to go to grad school from there. But I do remember being like, okay, what do I do now? Like, and even for a woman, like, I remember questioning, like, okay, like, should I get a boob job? Like, I'm not an athlete anymore, like, all of these things. No, for real, y'all, like, it was like this crazy thing that went through my head. But it was, you figure it out. I think the only thing you know to do is to put one foot in front of the other. And you figure it out, and I figured it out.

• 14:17Speaker 01

  Honestly, that took a turd I didn't think it was gonna take.

• 14:20Speaker 02

  I remember.

• 14:21Speaker 01

  So you went, wait, you was like, I gotta get a real job and a boob job.

• 14:27Speaker 02

  I was like, this little flat chest is not cute anymore, this is not gonna work. Like, and my boyfriend at the time was like, I think you just need to breathe. But there was so much swirling in my head, like, and I think the thing, even to today, I miss the locker room so much. Like, I miss the locker room so much, because it was, I don't think there's ever a group of people working toward the same goal in the same way. Not that we don't have teams after that, but it's just something so special about the locker room. So, yeah, that was, that was a doozy.

• 14:55Speaker 04

  That's what you hear from the male athlete. You've heard that for years. I got money, I got fame, I miss the boys, I miss the locker room. It's never talked about with the female athletes. That's why I'm glad you said it. And for a lot of them, it ends a lot earlier. So they're like, oh, like you said, y'all did at a higher level. That locker room might have been bigger and nicer, but they told I asked you cut sooner or later, and you're not good enough anymore.

• 15:16Speaker 02

  Yeah, and this is why I was sort of a proponent of NIL, especially on the women's side. You can prepare for it, but it's something, it's like everything else, like marriage, kid, parenthood, the whole thing. You won't know until you get in it. You gotta get in it, get your feet settled, and figure out how you move.

• 15:30Speaker 03

  In that, was there ever a time you felt like a failure?

• 15:32Speaker 02

  I think those, that second layoff when I came home, but I am really thankful, again, and this goes back to my parents, cuz like, I remember, you know, my mom and I just kinda ideating, thinking out loud. And I was like, well, if I have failed, and this is my rock bottom, then that also becomes solid ground to build upon. And so there was, I think, in that stretch, right before the break, I guess, the darkest hours before the dawn, right? I was about to let all this go. I was like, I'm gonna go teach English, I enjoy kids, I'm gonna coach basketball. If it comes back around, like, it comes back around. But the bills, the jobs, the time is not waiting for me. And if my life looks different than what I envisioned, it too can be a good life, right? And so I had, I had to let it go.

• 16:15Speaker 02

  And, yeah, of course you do with all those thoughts of failure. I'm just thankful that it did come back around. But again, like, the way that I operate in this space today, and I'm so grateful for every opportunity, it would not be the same if not for that experience. Because I think it, it reminds you, and again, y'all know this, of the commodization of it all. Is that a word? That you are a commodity.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  I'm about to say it's gonna be a word today.

• 16:38Speaker 02

  Right, it's gonna be a word.

• 16:38Speaker 01

  I like it.

• 16:39Speaker 02

  And I think it's important, like, we give, and I'm, I think two things can exist at once. I'm incredibly grateful for the career that I've had the opportunity to be in and to continue to build. But Lord forbid something happen to me tomorrow, they gonna be like, all right, well, he go to eulogy, and we fell in her spot or nah. And so I think, for me, the give, that season taught me, oh, them jobs that let me go, they ain't miss a beat. What you mean it doesn't matter that I didn't use my PTO? It doesn't matter that I missed a holiday with my family? Like, it doesn't matter that I missed the birth of my god kid? None of that matters to you? Oh, bet, that's how we gonna proceed.

• 17:12Speaker 01

  You know, we started this conversation, you know, at that day on First Take, where it felt like your world opened up from a media standpoint. But in that, in that sense, you were advocating for women's basketball. You were advocating for the women that do it, but also the black women who had carried this league for years. As we see this shift of media attention, how do you feel the women of the league, particularly the black women, have been portrayed?

• 17:43Speaker 02

  I do think things have improved since that volatile conversation, if you will. But I think there's a long way for things to go. And it's not just about blackness, it's also about identity, right? Like, this conversation around trans athletes that was, basically, to me, it was sensationalized. I don't know that it is that imminent of an actual issue. And so I think when you look at the WNBA overall, you're talking about women, largely black women, a strong representation of queer women. Like, there's all of these things that if we took sports out of the conversation, society is still grappling with accepting of these identities, let alone celebrating them, right? And so it has become a space of celebration for the folks that truly love it and respect it and revere it.

• 18:27Speaker 02

  And with growth comes the political nature of these conversations and using the W as a lightning rod. I think, I don't know if that'll go back. I've had plenty of moments to myself, with friends, like, do we love the growth? Like, at what cost, I guess, is what you sit with in terms of the growth. And so I love that these players are getting paid. I love the visibility, you turn on various channels, have the opportunity to watch the league. But with that comes folks who have agendas and have uneducated opinions on big platforms. And so I think, I don't know if I will ever fully be satisfied with the way that the league is covered, but that just might be the underside of this growth.

• 19:05Speaker 01

  How do you balance the equation? Cuz I think this is another large question, and it was a question during the time on First Take as well. How do you balance the positive effect that Katelyn Clark has had on the coverage of the league and the negativity that it has also brought to the WNBA?

• 19:28Speaker 02

  I think you can absolutely celebrate the basketball and the growth, and then you just kinda gotta be honest about the rest of it, right? I think the exit interviews when Indiana wrapped up left some folks scratching their heads. But to Katelyn's credit, she did call out the things that she does not support, which I have not heard vocally from her many a time. But I think, unfortunately, and this is where I think I can hold space for the fact that I am Turner 37, a black woman that grew up in Prince George's County, very aware of who I am and the skin I show up in and the issues thereof. I can hold a little bit of grace for Midwest, those issues were not as pressing to me. It's gonna take you a minute to find your voice on topics that can be deemed complicated, if you are not steeped in them, right?

• 20:12Speaker 02

  And so I think when you talk about the positivity, yes, the eyeballs are fantastic, the energy's great. When you go to arenas and you see little girls with their dads freaking out, like, just many, not just little girls, because she's an incredible athlete, all of that is fantastic. But I think for me, there is no way that someone would use my likeness to support causes that I am against. And I think that is where I have found the challenge in this conversation, right? With time, does that come and does it get better? I thought that exit interview was a step in the right direction. I thought the piece in Time Magazine was a step in the right direction. But as exhausting as it may be for you to have to repeat these things, how exhausting then is the experience of your teammates who are catching the brunt of it?

• 20:54Speaker 02

  And so I think for me, and honestly, Ryan, I've had this conversation with a couple of retirees from the league. Is the league still identifying as this league of activists? I'm not sure. Even the players internally have to have that conversation because when more dollars get involved, there's more at risk, there's more at stake. Like Sidney Colson and TP, they've talked about this on their podcast as well. And so I think we're in a really interesting time watching the league evolve. But again, we can hold space for more than one emotion. It could be fantastic that we're on four different networks and that viewership is off the roof. And it also can be like, ugh, but it's some conversations that we've never had to navigate in such a terse way.

• 21:29Speaker 04

  Wow. And it gets political with the male sports, like the kneeling stuff and all. Colin Kaepernick's been on the show recently. So it gets political. Why is it so racial in the WNBA? Like, we have black and white quarterbacks. Like, it seems as if the race is just so crazy in the WNBA.

• 21:45Speaker 02

  Because Channing, I think, again, if we step back and pull sport out of the equation, you are, if you'll allow me to use the analogy, dealing with the bottom of the barrel in terms of your societal totem pole. And so it gets nasty exponentially faster than it does when you're talking about men, right? Okay, so then you got women. Then you're talking about black women. Then you're talking about queer women. Like, it gets nasty exponentially faster. And I just think that's something that, at large, as a society, we need to be able to be honest about.

• 22:11Speaker 03

  The media is at the forefront of creating that divide, though, more so than the players themselves.

• 22:17Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 22:18Speaker 03

  Talking to some of the players, like, where do they think the league is? And what can they do better to make sure that the media doesn't go one way or the other?

• 22:27Speaker 02

  You know, Fred, I think, yes, there are traditional outlets that are culpable for some of the sensationalized highlights. But I actually just think, in this era of social media, that is where, like, players, as powerful as social media platforms are for their brands and connecting to their truest fans, that's also probably where their mentions get the craziest and the nastiest.

• 22:49Speaker 03

  Right.

• 22:50Speaker 02

  Now, can you maybe delete that stuff, not look at it? Yeah, but also, is there something that the league can do in terms of protecting us? Like, I don't exactly know how we'll end up regulating social media ultimately. And while that hits the women, again, exponentially harder, I've also heard professional men's players, NBA, NFL, talking about the same thing. Like, nobody should be getting death threats over anything related to sports, right? And so I think, yes, there are media organizations with agendas in the traditional sense that are problematic. But I also think the rise of this social media thing is at the root of it, too.

• 23:23Speaker 04

  There's a phrase you say a lot. I've heard you say, what, heavy is the head that wears the crown?

• 23:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:27Speaker 04

  You got the crown on as the voice of female basketball. When we go to Pivot Sports on Monday.

• 23:34Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 23:34Speaker 04

  I know I'm talking about Josh Allen. You know what I'm saying? Like, we go in talking about our topics. Do you wake up, or when something happens with Katelyn, or what's the girl, Sophie?

• 23:43Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 23:43Speaker 04

  That was going crazy, or Angel Reese?

• 23:46Speaker 02

  You mean, do I be like, I'm not available today? Yes. 100%.

• 23:48Speaker 04

  Do you wake up to storylines like, here I go again. I'm not talking basketball today.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  100%. Yes. Yes. And I think, too, again, and depending on how this podcast go, I know my mentions are about to go crazy, too. And I'm not even the premier in terms of these actual athletes that impact winning or losing. But it's just, there is such little space where we are, at large, for actual conversation to understand. And I think that is sad. And even if we have a conversation to understand and ultimately still disagree, can we disagree respectfully? Like, can't we just disagree respectfully? I'm not saying that we all gotta like the color blue. Like, that's fine. I'm wearing red. But can we do it in a respectful way? And I think that is something that I long for.

• 24:29Speaker 01

  I think the thing that's happened in the WNBA is that everything's so polarizing.

• 24:35Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:36Speaker 01

  There is zero space for nuance, right? It's an impossibility to say, yes, there's a positive, but there's also a negative effect, right? It's an impossibility for you, as a black woman who's analyzing the game, who played the game, to be able to say, Katelyn Clark has to stop turning the basketball over. Because if you're saying that, you're only saying that because she's not a black woman. Right?

• 25:05Speaker 02

  Yep.

• 25:05Speaker 01

  That is what's happened to the WNBA that makes it extremely difficult.

• 25:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:10Speaker 01

  And I think a large part of that, this is not my podcast, this is yours, so I'll shut up in a second.

• 25:15Speaker 02

  Now, keep going.

• 25:15Speaker 01

  But a large part of it is, for so long, the league was ran by the undervalued, the devalued, the black woman, the queer woman.

• 25:26Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 25:27Speaker 01

  The negativity, right, or the other side of that spectrum, didn't have someone's cape to ride them. And then they finally got it. And that is when the negativity started to be this polarizing thing. And I can still say, it's also connected to new contracts. It's also connected to more visibility. But people don't want to hear every side of a conversation. I do want to ask you something outside of the WNBA. And when we've been talking about women's voices, you also are a huge voice in the NBA, right? And it hasn't

• 26:06Speaker 01

  always been that we are going to respect a woman who has an impossibility of being on those courts. The same way we had Kara on the show, right? She worked a year with the Boston Celtics. And she said they accepted her as a basketball voice, not as a woman. How have you worked to find your place in covering the New York Knicks for the MSG Network?

• 26:31Speaker 02

  I mean, especially coming off this last run, y'all, like, it has truly been the professional privilege of a lifetime, being a part of that. And I think a couple of things worked in my favor when I got to New York. It marks five years for me in the city this month. I think I was a fresh voice and somewhat naively optimistic, although it has all panned out, too. And then I was a black woman in a city that is so diverse, right? There was a cultural capital, if you will, that I helped to add to our broadcast. And I agree with Kara 100%. I have never, particularly among my colleagues at MSG Networks, and for the most part, as I'm covering NBA teams with ESPN, I have never

• 27:12Speaker 02

  felt like, oh, you don't know ball, you don't belong here. Right? We can disagree. Like, Mello and I, the other day, were getting into it over the Portland Trail Blazers because he got them as a dark horse in the Western Conference. And I was like, bro, please. Anyway, but that's a basketball conversation, right? And so I'm really, really fortunate that I don't have horror stories to pull from, at least not to my face. And I'm not sure what people are saying behind my back. But again, I think athletes respect athletes. Like, basketball players respect basketball players. There have been exchanges where it's like, yo, you said X, Y, Z. For example, Rick Brunson, great guy. But our first conversation was, yo, you said my son was too small. And I was like, actually, I didn't say your son was too small. I said him and Donovan Mitchell shouldn't play together. And we are fast friends now. But like, yeah, that's why when I'm in these spaces, I try to operate with

• 27:56Speaker 02

  respect. Because if I said something and somebody were to call me out about it, Pat Beverley got me one time. And I was like, bro, that's not what I meant. But anyway. And it was not in a, you're a woman, you shouldn't have said that. It was Hooper's talking, right? And I am totally okay with that. And even if people come at me from a place of, you're a woman, and they're disrespectful, or they are disrespectful, that's their problem, not mine. And I'm not going to waste my energy trying to prove something to you.

• 28:18Speaker 04

  You look like you had more fun than anybody when they won a championship.

• 28:22Speaker 02

  Oh, I had a blast. I had a blast. Like, it was, it was, that's what I'm saying. Like, it was so surreal. I did not dream, as a kid, of being in New York in its capacity, but it has exceeded every professional dream I could have had.

• 28:35Speaker 04

  That's all.

• 28:35Speaker 02

  Like, I'm having a blast.

• 28:37Speaker 04

  I got a little beef with you. So we just talking out?

• 28:39Speaker 02

  Come on, let's talk.

• 28:39Speaker 04

  2023, AC Heat?

• 28:43Speaker 02

  AC Heat?

• 28:44Speaker 04

  Miami Heat. And you questioning people about people being in the stands and all of that stuff?

• 28:50Speaker 02

  I did say that. I did say that.

• 28:52Speaker 04

  What? Monica, we gonna be there. Monica, we gonna be there.

• 28:56Speaker 02

  At halftime. That's all I said. That's all I said.

• 28:59Speaker 04

  It's in Miami.

• 29:00Speaker 02

  So own it. All I'm saying is own it. And I really think, I can't, I'm blanking on our producer's name, because I think one of my producers set me up on that. Because my mentions, I was like, who put this out? Oh. I did say that. I said that. Yeah.

• 29:11Speaker 04

  Okay. Because I'm down there. But it's a narrative that I think you perpetuated.

• 29:15Speaker 02

  I did.

• 29:16Speaker 04

  We sold out. We come there, we got Yannis, we gonna ball. We are not gonna be there. Tip off.

• 29:21Speaker 02

  Y'all sold out because I can't see y'all.

• 29:23Speaker 04

  We're not gonna be there at tip off. It's Miami.

• 29:25Speaker 02

  Y'all not gonna be there at tip off. And you're not gonna be there until halfway through the third quarter when you come back from the lounges. Like, what do you mean?

• 29:31Speaker 04

  Have you ever been to Hyde? Have you ever been to the club down there?

• 29:34Speaker 02

  No, I've never.

• 29:35Speaker 04

  You wouldn't want to leave either.

• 29:36Speaker 02

  All I'm saying, Channing, is y'all need to be self-aware. Like, that's all I'm saying. Be self-aware.

• 29:40Speaker 03

  No, I don't even start there. It's in the Grey Goose Lounge. Everybody's in the Grey Goose Lounge. That's how it goes.

• 29:45Speaker 02

  Miami has some of the sweetest attendants. Those are my people. They always give me big hugs and take care of me when we down there. But like...

• 29:49Speaker 03

  I'm season ticket holder for 10 years. It's the Grey Goose Lounge. You can't even get out of there until the second quarter.

• 29:54Speaker 02

  And there's nothing wrong with that. We just need to be aware.

• 29:56Speaker 03

  No, but working here in the city, though, how do the fans treat you? Like, before the championship season and even now?

• 30:04Speaker 02

  So when I first got here, I told my mom, I was like, yo, people are calling my name like I owe them money. She's like, you're in New York. Like, if they didn't want to say what's up, they would let you know if they didn't like you, too. So New York, truly, like, I've said this, and it's not just because we were viral for various reasons over the course of the finals run, but I have never had a group of people that I don't know personally put their arms around me as tightly as New York has. Like, New York holds me down. That moment that we started our conversation with on First Take, like, New York holds me down. And I'm so grateful for that. I think after the finals call, all summer, people were stopping me and were like, yo, your final call, the love letter, when you cried, I cried. And to be linked to a moment like that for generations of fans, again, like

• 30:47Speaker 02

  y'all, like, professional privilege of a lifetime. We can have careers that span however long, but it's the moments, right, that matter. And so I think for me, and then coming off the Emmy win this year, which was really cool, too, like...

• 30:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, congratulations.

• 30:59Speaker 02

  Thank you. To share that moment with this fanbase has been incredible.

• 31:02Speaker 03

  Have you had time to really reflect on how we started, talking about the layoffs?

• 31:06Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 31:06Speaker 03

  You know, basketball, your basketball career ending, the layoffs, being back home, and looking at what just happened a year ago, and where you are with everything, the Emmy? Like, to be able to just reflect?

• 31:17Speaker 02

  Ooh, I'm not gonna cry. Yeah, I think that same coach who crocked on me for being super emotional down the stretch, he used to say, and I didn't quite get it then, but he used to say, "It's less about the destination and more about the journey." And I feel that deeply now. Each step of the journey has served such an important part for my whole being, right? It might not have always been career-focused or family-focused, but I think when I look back in totality, each stop along the way had an undeniable purpose and a necessary season in my life. And even now, as I look ahead, again, like going to not having this thing and being okay,

• 31:58Speaker 02

  on the one hand, it emboldens me if things change or my interests change, like, "Oh, so you mean I'm gonna be okay? Like, I know a life without this?

• 32:06Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:07Speaker 02

  Okay, you know what I mean? And so, I just, I encourage folks, especially young people in pursuit of this career, to be where your feet are, right? The only thing in our lives that is truly inevitable is change. And so, when you are in those seasons, what is the good? What is the learning? What are the positive takeaways? Because the only thing that's inevitable is change.

• 32:29Speaker 01

  Yeah, I know this is kind of swinging us back to just a different point in time in life. I couldn't imagine, right, being an athlete from PG County, right? And I want to, I had to be honest about this with Patrick Ewing. Growing up in New Orleans, I thought Georgetown was an HBCU.

• 32:46Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah.

• 32:47Speaker 01

  Right? Because all I knew was John Thompson and the basketball team. What's it like for a young girl from PG to meet the legend though?

• 32:53Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 32:53Speaker 01

  And get to see John Thompson up close?

• 32:56Speaker 02

  So, my dad was a huge Georgetown fan and was actually at St. Anthony's High School when Big John was at St. Anthony's before he left for Georgetown. So, I didn't fully calculate who he was or what Georgetown represented, but that was always a part of my sports and basketball lexicon. So, I remember being on my recruiting visit, and of course, you pull out the stops when you got to recruit, you want, like, being in Big John's office, being like, "Oh, my God, like, this is the legendary person." It was incredible to have spent time with him, to literally, you know, he would sit in this big oak chair in the gym, even for our practices. When we beat Maryland in the Sweet 16, like, he was in our locker room celebrating with us. His book, "I Came as a Shadow," I'm blanking on the author that wrote it, Jesse, I want

• 33:39Speaker 02

  to say Thompson, but I don't think that's his last name, did a fantastic job with the book. It sounds so true to who Big John was and the way that he told stories. But I think, too, the thing about Prince George's County is it's one of those pockets in the United States where black folks live well. That could also be translated as bougie, but there was an expectation of excellence and the proximity to share with someone who historically is so important in basketball culture as well as black American culture. It was just to glean from him. It's an opportunity that I'm so, so thankful that I got to have.

• 34:10Speaker 01

  When you guys get to the tourney, right, and you play that last game.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 34:16Speaker 01

  Right? Thank you, what you were all conference as a junior, you get to the Sweet 16, you know, and you lose that last game. Football was different when you get to go to the league because you may or may not know when the last game is. You knew walking to the locker room, that was it. What, what were the emotions of that moment for you?

• 34:41Speaker 02

  Honestly, Ryan, it did not hit me till we pulled up to campus. We played at Wells Fargo, we lost to UConn by, I think it was six, something, it might have been five, something crazy that I'm like, "Oh, I've never been so close in my life." Immediately after the loss, I remember going to the press conference and being like, "Okay, so, my career's over and I'm trying to get in the media. So, if anybody wants to help me out, like, you know." And I got a couple of cards from that press conference and folks that I've stayed connected with, a couple of them I've stayed connected with to this day. I don't know if it was sort of shock of it all or what, but that was honestly my first thought after we lost. And then I remember boo hoo, sobbing, ugly cry when we actually pulled up to campus once the game was all over.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  Was it that one where you go?

• 35:21Speaker 02

  Yeah. It was like, "Girl, get up, you gotta get off this bus, like, come on."

• 35:27Speaker 01

  I already know, I remember when I was in high school, you know, I knew I was going to LSU, some of the homies, they were, they knew they were done and they were just crying. They were like, "Ryan, I'm never gonna play football again." And I was like, "Shit, I'm gonna be at LSU next year." I don't know. Hey!

• 35:42Speaker 03

  You sound like me. I don't know my chowboys. I've been on CBS, baby.

• 35:49Speaker 01

  Yeah, I think that, that's always this crazy thing, but, you know, I just want to get back to now. You are clearly also a Knicks fan.

• 35:59Speaker 02

  Yeah, now.

• 36:01Speaker 01

  Now, exactly. What happens when that fandom?

• 36:07Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:07Speaker 01

  Has to come into the truth of doing the job?

• 36:10Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 36:11Speaker 01

  How do you balance that?

• 36:13Speaker 02

  Well, I will be honest, I did not grow up here, I'm not from here. I became a fan circa 2019.

• 36:20Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:21Speaker 02

  You know what I'm saying? When it just happened to collide with opportunity and paychecks, right? It just happens to line up that way. I think for me, being a fan doesn't mean you can't be honest. And I think rooting, I would also add, as much as I appreciate our team, love those guys, have gotten to get, gotten to know them and their families, you also find yourself rooting for the fan base.

• 36:43Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 36:43Speaker 02

  Right? Like, I think I'm a fan in a different way because, of course, I would rather be the first team to go back-to-back for championships in eight years, but either way, like, my checks are good, you know what I mean? Like, there's a different live and die with a fan that is spending their discretionary income to come to a game, to buy a ticket, to travel. And so, I think for those people, my fandom of those people probably is in lock-in stride with that of the team because Knicks fans, they wear it on their sleeves. Like, their heart is truly on their sleeve, and I think that's why being in the city and being part of this run was so special because I have friends that are native to New York, and y'all, they were like, "We have not seen the city this jubilant or this unified since post 9/11."

• 37:27Speaker 02

  Which I think, I can remember my experience from Virginia, being close to the Pentagon, but I can only imagine what that was like here. And so, to have a unifying force and it's sport, like, it's the basketball, where you see a court every two blocks here in New York, like, that to me was so beautiful and worthy of celebration.

• 37:41Speaker 04

  And you said about Jalen Brunson's dad saying something to you. Recently, RC got a text message from a player that we were talking critical about on our show, and I said, "RC, don't get your ass whooped." The man got a couple touchdowns caught on him. Has any player ever, like, you, you have to be honest, to this point where you gotta be, you're analyzing basketball, where you'd be like, "She lost the series," or "He did this," and they run up on you, like?

• 38:11Speaker 02

  I've, I've had a couple of very respectful conversations, but I think, you know, part of it, being behind the scenes and being respectful is like, "Yeah, I said X, Y, Z," and you felt definitely cool, right? Like, I think that's okay. Again, y'all, I have never felt like I don't belong.

• 38:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 38:24Speaker 02

  And I think I am, that's a kudos to the space and the progressiveness, the respect level. And then I think it's partly in how I do my job. I'm not into just spewing nonsense for the sake of spewing nonsense, right? I do, like, with the guys that I'm with, you know, during the course of the season, a couple of seasons ago, when they couldn't get past Cleveland and Boston, it might have been somebody else that they were struggling to get past, I remember being like, "Just so y'all know, I gotta go on ESPN and talk about y'all just losing and looking stupid." Like, I just want y'all to know that now, in advance. They're like, "All right, mom, whatever." But I think that is the benefit of the rapport of rolling with this particular group of guys.

• 39:00Speaker 04

  Both sides.

• 39:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:01Speaker 04

  I'm gonna tell you when you ballin'.

• 39:02Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:02Speaker 04

  And I'm gonna tell you when you garbage too, that I understand.

• 39:05Speaker 03

  But money, tennis was your first love, right?

• 39:07Speaker 02

  I wouldn't say love, but it was my first sport, for sure.

• 39:09Speaker 03

  It was your first sport?

• 39:10Speaker 02

  But we loved, my dad and I, we were just, I mean, everybody is in on the Venus, Venus and Serena. Like, that was like, "I want to be like them." Then it was like, "No, my body doesn't work that way."

• 39:18Speaker 03

  With, with how they sort of evolved the game, especially for, like, any inspiration for the black women?

• 39:24Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 03

  Coco or Naomi?

• 39:25Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 39:26Speaker 03

  Taylor? Like, to see that sport evolve, how do you think you would have fared?

• 39:31Speaker 02

  Fared?

• 39:31Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 39:32Speaker 02

  I'm, I have, like, length, like, Venus is tall, I think Venus is, like, actually my height. I do not have the power of a Serena or a Coco, but maybe I could have trained.

• 39:41Speaker 01

  That's a lot of, that's a lot of maybe.

• 39:43Speaker 02

  It's all, I'd like, I would like to say that my Winx fan would have helped me in tennis, because you would cover a lot of ground. Other than that, I don't know.

• 39:51Speaker 01

  Your change of direction didn't, don't look like it was where it might need to be.

• 39:56Speaker 02

  Can we train these things, though? Nurture versus nature.

• 39:58Speaker 01

  Yeah, sometimes, sometimes, hey, sometimes nurture be kicking nature.

• 40:02Speaker 02

  This is what I will say, though, too, I'm very much in on the indoor sport, so maybe I'm out.

• 40:07Speaker 01

  So, I have a, an evolution question.

• 40:10Speaker 02

  Okay, let's go.

• 40:10Speaker 01

  A WNBA evolution question.

• 40:13Speaker 02

  All right.

• 40:13Speaker 01

  I think it's very, it's very relevant right now. I went to a school that once won a national championship in women's basketball.

• 40:22Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 40:22Speaker 01

  The star of that team entered The NBA, or the WNBA, excuse me, same year Caitlin Clark did.

• 40:30Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:30Speaker 01

  She couldn't really shoot.

• 40:31Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:32Speaker 01

  Uh, her game has been much maligned.

• 40:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 40:34Speaker 01

  By people who are on the opposite side of who they believe Angel Reese could ever be. Thirty and sixteen in game two, the WNBA finals.

• 40:44Speaker 02

  Yep, twenty-two and nine in the closeout.

• 40:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, Defensive Player of the Year.

• 40:48Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 40:49Speaker 01

  As well, when you look at Angel Reese's game, how were you able to assess the way it would evolve? And has it evolved more quickly than you would have thought?

• 41:00Speaker 02

  A hundred percent, she's hit the curve way faster than I thought. And I will give her props on that ten times over. Atlanta, obviously, has been a fantastic situation in terms of Carl Semesco unlocking her game and taking it to the next level, particularly her three-point shot. Teresa Weatherspoon, who was her first coach in Chicago, I know that they have a tight relationship. She spoke lightly to that young lady, and that matters a ton. But I can remember being in Dallas during that Final Four, trying to figure out how it was gonna translate. And I give the recent, probably the last three years, those draft classes, a lot of them, there's like probably a handful from each class, but what we have seen as traditionally a veteran-driven league, a good amount of them have been able to find their way

• 41:43Speaker 02

  and attack the WNBA curve, but I give Angel a ton of credit. But I think the thing that you could not quantify, which is at the root of even her success now, is the motor and the drive that she operates with. I was literally saying this morning on a program, as much as she has been maligned for the layup thing, in these finals, in these semifinals, she's finishing more than she's not, and that's through contact, right? And so I think the nature of an athlete is, or at least high-performing athletes, is to continue to want to get better. And if you believe that of them, then why not? Like, why would you not have expected her to figure it out? Now, granted, situation matters, but I think for her to already be in the finals and be two, three wins away.

• 42:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 42:23Speaker 02

  From being a champion, like, I, I'm thrilled for her. I'm thrilled for that entire crew in Atlanta because they have been sort of in the conversation the last couple of years, and for whatever reason couldn't get over the hump. But it seems like she's been the, the missing piece.

• 42:36Speaker 04

  And speaking of evolution, just the overall game, like, we're old. I remember Cheryl Swoops and Lobo and Maya Moore and Candace Parker, like, we were back then. There, is it the coverage? Because nowadays, you're talking about Paige.

• 42:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 42:48Speaker 04

  Even Brianna, I can't remember, like, all those people. Olivia Miles, like, these, you talk about the young girls, made me think about it. Are these young girls getting covered better than those ladies were? Or is the game evolving, the game changing? Is the beef better? Like, we had, we had Jordan versus Bird. They didn't have, they didn't have said Lobo versus Maya. Like, it was, why, why is the young star taking off? And I can't say they were better than Maya Moore.

• 43:13Speaker 02

  No, I got you. I understand where you could be, yeah, watch yourself, don't do that just yet.

• 43:16Speaker 04

  Hey.

• 43:17Speaker 02

  That's a good question, Janie, hold on, let me think. Why are young stars hitting it quicker? Well, let's, I do wanna quantify, because when we talk about two rounds of the WNBA draft, we are talking about probably a handful of players that have hit it quicker than others. But I do think, let's just go to this year, in the case of Olivia Miles, like, in college, you could see the pro vision in her game, right? The way she handles, the way she can get to the rim, her shiftiness. I think when you look at Angel, she's just worked, and her motor has been relentless. She's had a pro motor. When you look at Caitlin, she's, when she's been able to be healthy, she's gotten stronger to be able to be on the floor, and she always had pro vision as well, as well as range. And so I think, I wonder, and I wonder if this will be, if the pendulum will swing back.

• 44:01Speaker 02

  I think because we're playing ball so much more, you can play year-round, not just with your college or high school team, AAU is so prolific. I think, and I think on the women's side, the workout warrior translates a little different than on the men's side. Because I remember a many a guy whose workout tape was fire, but then it'd be like, are you gonna do that in the game? And I don't, I think it translates a little bit different on the women's side. And so I guess these younger athletes have been better prepared. They're coming in a little bit stronger, better vision, and the, the space of the WNBA game has changed. There are far more five-out, utilitarian, play multiple positions, as opposed to where you would get exposed. And college is oftentimes their strength in a slower, more physical game.

• 44:44Speaker 02

  And since the game is faster, I mean, teams scoring a hundred points like it ain't nothing, it's easier for, it's both easier, and I think these players are better that are coming in now.

• 44:53Speaker 01

  And I wanna say this in, in a respectful way, because I think people have this conversation about the women's game, and it comes off disrespectfully. And sometimes they mean it that way, I don't, I don't see it that way. You talked about the workout warrior, right? There are workout warriors in football, that I don't care how much you work, you still ain't gonna tackle Bijan, because he's just that much more physically gifted. Is the lack of athleticism in some ways part in women, part of why the workout warrior can become a great player? Because I feel like the women's game is predicated on a ton of skill.

• 45:33Speaker 01

  I've always felt like the way they handle the football, you look at the way they shoot the basketball. It's very, it's very, it's not very often you see a woman with an ugly shot.

• 45:42Speaker 02

  Right.

• 45:43Speaker 01

  Right? Because she had to work on that and develop that. Do you think the lack of athleticism in women's basketball? Or I guess the, it not being the priority helps those people excel earlier now?

• 45:55Speaker 02

  Well, one, I would like the phrase not to be lack of, it's just a different level, right?

• 45:59Speaker 01

  When it comes to men, yeah, yeah.

• 46:01Speaker 02

  Right, right, compared to men, right? I think yes and no. I think there is nowhere to hide in the women's game.

• 46:08Speaker 01

  Okay.

• 46:08Speaker 02

  Right? Just being a crazy athlete to a degree in the women's game, yeah, but you still need some skill, you need to understand how to run a play, like, where to be on the floor, all the things. And I think sometimes in men's sport, you can be an incredible athlete, and people are just like, okay, we'll get out the way for you. You know what I mean? And so I think it works both ways. On the men's side, there's opportunities that athleticism creates. But on the women's side, to your point, because it is still so heavily predicated on skill, you've gotta be able to fit in the system. And that doesn't mean you have to have the handles like Olivia Miles, but you gotta know where to set the screen, how to cut, how to stay out of her way, and a way to make yourself productive and impactful, right? And so, yes, when we think about these last draft classes, Caitlin, Angel, Paige,

• 46:51Speaker 02

  like, you got your premier names, but you also have players who have been able to earn spots as legitimate pros, and they don't have all the dazzle that those players do, but they understand the game at a high level, and they are positive impacts on the floor.

• 47:04Speaker 01

  Yeah, I guess I just don't feel like there are, like, like Dwight Howard.

• 47:08Speaker 02

  Right.

• 47:09Speaker 01

  In the, in the women's game, who you can see early on and throughout his career, there was certain skills that never developed, but he could also jump from the free throw line. His shoulders were this wide, and he was strong, you know what I mean? And so I feel like in the women's game, you don't have those people, and so you need to understand how to play, where to be, and have some of those skills that translate to success.

• 47:31Speaker 02

  I would add to that too, though, RC, like, I think in the women's game, there's a larger window to grow. Like, I think about Gabby Williams this year, who was a free agent and decided to go to Golden State. Gabby Williams is having an offensive year that we've not seen, because previously, she was thought of as sort of a three-and-D, outstanding defender, great athlete, but maybe not as your primary scorer. And so I think she's, I wanna say Gab, I wanna say Gabby's pushing ten years in the league, I hope that's not wrong. Eight to ten, somewhere, she's somewhere in that range. She talked about the opportunity to go to Golden State, and we're seeing this new version of her. I think it's harder on the men's side for guys to move around or shake what they have been identified as.

• 48:13Speaker 02

  And not that it's easy on the women's side, but I think in the nature of, especially with the expansion teams, if you can get into a spot, the same thing with Angel, right? She looks like a completely different player almost from Chicago now to Atlanta. And so I think there is a, a bigger window to grow and adapt and sort of change your game on the women's side.

• 48:30Speaker 01

  I didn't even know nothing about Gabby till the Olympics, to be, to be honest with you.

• 48:34Speaker 02

  Yeah, and that, and that's the thing, like, when you start with France, it wasn't quite the same Gabby that you would see in the W, until now.

• 48:39Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 48:40Speaker 04

  Closest thing is Stewie had her prime in that paint.

• 48:42Speaker 02

  Huh?

• 48:43Speaker 04

  Talking about just physically, just them girls ain't got a damn chance.

• 48:46Speaker 02

  Brianna?

• 48:47Speaker 04

  She used to embarrass people, she's just bigger than them.

• 48:50Speaker 02

  No, she is, and she's, and I was about to say, but she wasn't necessarily gonna back you down. She was gonna turn over her right or left and shoot over you. She, skill, and she can use her physicality when she needs to.

• 48:59Speaker 04

  Men are always, we always have measurables.

• 49:01Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 49:01Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 49:02Speaker 04

  Hot, uh, forty, vertical, hand size. Do, do, does it seem like, or am I naive, that women aren't judged off measurables like men are?

• 49:12Speaker 02

  No. Also, do measurables translate for men? Sometimes.

• 49:16Speaker 04

  Like, a dude that runs a four-two is gonna be a pretty good receiver.

• 49:19Speaker 02

  Besides the running part. Like a dude with small hands can't catch, period?

• 49:24Speaker 01

  Well, no, it's not that, but I think, I think over time, it's developed that those measurables mean something. And I think the ones that don't, they learn to eliminate them, right? Will Campbell has short arms. Will Campbell, who was a very good college player, got abused in the playoffs, right? Ruben Vane, who we all love and think is an extreme athlete, he's got off to a slow start in the NFL, and part of his measurables was short arms, small hands for quarterbacks. And so I think that those things have a place, and to Channing's point, I guess, how much do they have a place in the women's basketball?

• 50:01Speaker 02

  I would say less. Now you got me thinking, is there a WNBA Combine? I don't think, I don't, right, I don't think there's a Combine.

• 50:09Speaker 04

  They get drafted right when the championship's over.

• 50:10Speaker 02

  Your Combine is how'd you do in the Sweet Sixteen, the Final Four, March Madness? No, but I think, again, the skill is not just of the players, it's also the way that these coaches operate on the women's side of the game. It is a more creative, if you will. I mean, Liberty didn't have a great season, but seeing a zone at the professional level is not really a thing. And then Priska Markoff brought it to the Liberty. Might not be a great example because they didn't have a great year, but I do think the combination of the skill and the creativity of the coaches, the measure, like, what is the measurable? The measurable is how you are performing in practice, and if that's going to translate into the game.

• 50:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, but like, that's the thing, though. Men is like, man, this vertical's 50, we gonna figure something out. Right, I think, I think there's a, there's a bigger gap in measurables in men, too, than what there are in, in, in women.

• 50:54Speaker 04

  I would say measurables, you look at like, All Pros, the Hall of Famers?

• 50:58Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 50:59Speaker 04

  They all ran 4.5s.

• 51:00Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 51:00Speaker 04

  He runs a 4.5, he can be in this group. He runs a 4.8, he has no chance to be a Hall of Famer.

• 51:05Speaker 02

  Okay, so then to break down the measurable thing again, I would be curious about that in football versus basketball.

• 51:11Speaker 01

  That makes sense.

• 51:11Speaker 03

  Though, I think those good starting points, conversation pieces, the men get excited about it, like the actual scouts and the people who are sitting there gathering that data, it's just fun for them, I think. But real quick, before I ask the biggest pivot question, I want to ask you about that pendulum swinging again, because I hate the fact that, that the hate was so loud when people talk about, uh, Angel. It ain't swinging back yet, in my opinion, whether it's the traditional media, social media, what have you, have you seen it from that same, you seen it the same way?

• 51:46Speaker 02

  It's so funny you ask me that, Fred, because a friend of mine just called, called me this morning on a rant about this, and she, her whole thing this morning was, Angel's experience is indicative of the experience of black women and probably black people at large trying to be successful. You, all these demerits against you, and then when you do achieve, nobody wants to say nothing. And I think, it, it's interesting, if I could, and I could make the WNBA Finals happening, happen last month, before football takes over the sports lexicon?

• 52:14Speaker 01

  That's what's hard.

• 52:14Speaker 02

  I wonder if there would be more folks offering apologies? It, it is, as exciting as it is to have potentially seven games of the WNBA Finals, game two was up against Monday Night Football, like, you know what I mean? And so, yes, we discussed it this morning on various sports shows, and I'm glad to see it there, but I think the real-time appreciation, the larger sports fan that is, that we would say is a generalist, that might have a place that, where they respect and watch women's basketball, they've moved on. And so, I will be curious to see, however this plays out, whether the Valkyries make history as a team that wins a championship in just their second year of existence, or if Atlanta's able to do it, that they haven't been back since 2013, and they're able to get their first in the organization.

• 52:56Speaker 02

  I am curious what the news cycle will allow in terms of acknowledging that. And so, Angel, I'm sure, she and her team, especially if she ends up being a champion, will do a great job in social spaces and events, and that marketing team is A1, but I don't, I don't know. I don't know what that's about.

• 53:13Speaker 03

  I haven't heard anything.

• 53:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 53:14Speaker 03

  I mean, I, I don't know. But I do want to ask, what we always ask all of us, I guess, your biggest pivot in life, the moment you can look back on, and say, because this happened to me or for me, I am who I am today.

• 53:25Speaker 02

  I think it's, it's that 18-month stretch that I was at home. I really think it was that stretch, because I, in hindsight, I'm so grateful that that happened. And, I mean, I'm sure y'all saw it, as players, and even now, you got people who sell their souls for these jobs. And again, we can hold two things, I'm very grateful for my job, I have fun at my job, but I also know who is going to be at my funeral, you know what I mean? Like, and I think for me, in a world that takes and takes and takes, that having that foundation and that understanding has been paramount to how I have moved since then. And so, that being without this thing, and again, like, it is not that I don't love it,

• 54:10Speaker 02

  but I think perspective is so, so important, and that stretch of my life really, really shaped my perspective.

• 54:15Speaker 01

  I, like you, have said things that have drawn criticism from certain groups of, of individuals.

• 54:21Speaker 02

  No kidding.

• 54:25Speaker 04

  Grab my pearls.

• 54:26Speaker 01

  You know, you know, and, and we talked about your authenticity, and we talked about your honesty.

• 54:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 54:33Speaker 01

  Right, and I always say, you know, honesty is, is not this space that you create so you can just say what you want, right? You try to say the things that are relevant. You took a ton of heat for the Taylor Swift comment. Well, how did you receive that criticism, and what was it like to have somebody like Brunson say, say, you know, come to your defense publicly as well?

• 54:55Speaker 02

  One, I, I, this is, this is, you can't tell me God ain't real, because that is happening as I'm witnessing history. I'm running down to the floor after the OG Ananobe tip-in, and one of the PR folks is like, you know, you're going viral? And I was literally like, dude, I don't care, did you just see that? Like, I do not care. Um, and so I think for me, occupational hazard. First of all, the mic, epitome of a hot mic situation, we weren't even up yet. I'm still mystified, and would love someone to explain how that got to the masses, but we'll leave that there. Second, you gotta be able to read a little colloquialism, because Girl Get Out of Here is not literally get out of here, but I had just seen you at a Knicks game with your man, in no Knicks, in no Knicks gear.

• 55:37Speaker 01

  The Cavs game.

• 55:38Speaker 02

  Yeah. And like, all the, the celebrity Knicks fans I am familiar with, blue and orange down, baby, it ain't no question. So literally, it's a throwaway comment, RC, that like, please, congratulations, you built an empire, you have an incredible fan base, like, I do not care. And so I think for me, although the Knicks day was funny, I was like, oh, TMZ, you want to interview me? I'm here. I was able to have fun with it.

• 56:02Speaker 01

  Right.

• 56:03Speaker 02

  And the other thing, and y'all know this, the internet is not real. No one said anything to me, to my face about that, other than the lovely reporter from TMZ, who at least tried to couch it and ask some regular Knicks questions before she got to that. That was all on the internet. Baby, I can close my phone and go on about my business. I am living literally my best professional life right now. What, what are y'all talking about? And so I think for Jalen, it was funny because we're celebrating, and he was like, ma, I got your back. And I was like, okay, dude, whatever, we won a championship. So in that clip, he takes the mic from me, and I'm literally like, it better be good, because I'm not supposed to give up my mic. But Jalen is just, he's so thoughtful, he's an incredible leader, I think his sense of what is happening around the people that, not that he's responsible for me, but like,

• 56:45Speaker 02

  he is the king of New York, and I'm in the New York orbit, if you will, tip of the cap to him, for sure. I was not expecting that, it was, it was really cool. But I think, too, again, people that have never had our jobs.

• 56:57Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 56:58Speaker 02

  You don't know how hot mic works, and if you don't speak with any of the flavor that I speak with, you probably took that comment to heart, and it wasn't even that deep. And not on you, not me, I'm going on about this championship parade.

• 57:08Speaker 01

  Like, I, I just love to see, you know, where your career is, winning the Emmy, but also just the respect amongst your peers.

• 57:16Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:17Speaker 01

  And you know how, you know why we do it, right? We do it because we love a thing.

• 57:21Speaker 02

  Mm-hmm.

• 57:21Speaker 01

  Right, we, we, we love the sport, we love the job, and it could be as much criticism, but the people that sit next to you, or the people that watch you, respect the way you go about your job, I think that's important. And to see athletes like Jalen, who in the biggest moment of his life, of his professional career, does that, it says a lot about the person you are. Man, I told you, when I text you this morning, I was excited about this, this was so much fun.

• 57:49Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 57:49Speaker 01

  Enjoy trying to go back to back?

• 57:51Speaker 02

  I know. The pursuit begins.

• 57:53Speaker 04

  We on the way.

• 57:55Speaker 02

  Who's we? Oh, Miami.

• 57:56Speaker 04

  Man, Yanis, Bam, and the boys, you know who we is.

• 58:01Speaker 01

  She said she'll see you there in the third quarter.

• 58:03Speaker 02

  What? From the Grey Goose Lounge.

• 58:07Speaker 02

  No, thanks for having me, RC, this was great, good to chop it with y'all, I had a blast.

• 58:11Speaker 01

  We appreciate you, and it's cool, you know, once a Georgetown bald girl, I got to watch Mellow.

• 58:17Speaker 02

  Oh my God, you remember that?

• 58:18Speaker 01

  Now y'all, now y'all work together.

• 58:20Speaker 02

  Bro, that is, yeah, we do work together, that is crazy.

• 58:23Speaker 04

  You got the nails done before, or?

• 58:25Speaker 02

  I painted these.

• 58:26Speaker 04

  Oh, I thought you was gonna have somebody here.

• 58:27Speaker 02

  No, no, no, no. Now, this is, I was literally like, I didn't put my nail polish.

• 58:31Speaker 01

  You said, hey, hey, because you, I thought you was gonna bring them here, so you could actually get your feet done.

• 58:37Speaker 02

  Jenny, shut up.

• 58:39Speaker 01

  While, while on the show.

• 58:40Speaker 02

  First of all, first of all.

• 58:41Speaker 01

  That was a moniker.

• 58:42Speaker 02

  You need to have Michael Eves sit in this chair, because Michael Eves made it hot.

• 58:46Speaker 01

  Monica, that's crazy that you did that.

• 58:48Speaker 04

  That was, you, you talked, what'd she say, bougie PG County? That's very PG County.

• 58:53Speaker 02

  I'm authentic.

• 58:55Speaker 01

  Hey, that don't mean show them everything.

• 58:58Speaker 04

  They're great from behind the three-point line.

• 59:04Speaker 02

  Again, something else, I had no idea the internet was gonna be mad about, like, like, calm down.

• 59:09Speaker 04

  That was funny, though.

• 59:10Speaker 02

  I told my producers, they knew what was happening.

• 59:13Speaker 01

  His toes was toeing the line, and that's why, you remember the KD3 in Brooklyn? His toes was on the line. So are mine, at this point, right now.

• 59:23Speaker 04

  That's so funny.

• 59:24Speaker 01

  Nah, we appreciate it.

• 59:26Speaker 04

  I was watching that live.

• 59:27Speaker 01

  We appreciate it.

• 59:28Speaker 02

  Thank you, guys. So fun.