Pablo Torre finds out everything, from losing ESPN the day his daughter was born to betting on himself to winning a Pulitzer, exposing Steve Ballmer, Life Surge, Tim Tebow, Bill Belichick and taking on sports’ most powerful.

“I will go to prison before I reveal who my sources are.” Pablo Torre On this episode of The Pivot Podcast, Pablo Torre joins Ryan Clark, Channing Crowder and Fred Taylor for a wide-ranging conversation about the journey that took him from Harvard, to ESPN, to building a show of his own—and becoming one of the most fearless investigative voices in sports media. Pablo opens up about the highs and lows of his career, including the surreal experience of losing his ESPN show on the very same day his daughter was born. Rather than allowing that moment to define him, he turned it into fuel, creating Pablo Torre Finds Out and betting on himself at a time when there were plenty of reasons to doubt what came next. That gamble paid off. Pablo discusses the recognition his work has received, including a Pulitzer Prize, and the responsibility that comes with investigative reporting when your stories involve some of the biggest names, most powerful organizations and richest owners in sports. He takes us inside his reporting on Clippers owner Steve Ballmer, the questions that surrounded the franchise, and what it feels like to pursue a story when you know the people you're investigating have vastly more resources and power than you do. He also opens up about his fascination with Bill Belichick, the psychology behind reporting on larger-than-life sports figures, and why the deeper you get into investigative journalism, the more you understand the personal risks that come with challenging powerful people. From his investigation into Life Surge and its connection to Tim Tebow, Pablo discusses his reporting, the questions his investigation raised, Tebow's response—along with the growing pressure that comes with shining a light on powerful figures who are often not the ones used to being scrutinized. At its core, this is a conversation about resilience, curiosity and courage—about losing a platform, creating your own, and continuing to ask difficult questions even when you know the answers could come with a price. Because in sports, the scoreboard tells you who won the game. Investigative journalists like Pablo Torre are often asking a different question: Pablo shares how he never imagined his work would lead to such strides nationally and become a force that is not only award-winning work, but public service, holding even those most powerful accountable. Full video Episode streaming now on Netflix. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:01Speaker 00

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• 0:26Speaker 01

  By now, you know Pablo Torre finds out everything. But this wasn't even supposed to be his career. Pablo was supposed to be a lawyer. He certainly didn't expect that he'd take that Ivy League education and use it to talk sports, or investigate billionaires, expose scandals, and somehow become one of the best storytellers in the business. This conversation starts with a day he'll never forget. And by the time we finish, we probably talk about some days that the subjects of his investigations would love to forget. Pablo's transparent, storytelling is vivid, and his recall is dang near perfect. His investigations start with something as simple as, hmm, something doesn't smell right. And at least one ended in a Pulitzer Prize. We talk expectations, failing LSATs,

• 1:11Speaker 01

  and losing your job while gaining a brand-new baby girl. We get into Steve Ballmer and the Clippers, life surge, Tim Tebow, and how much did Kawhi actually know? And yes, I had to ask Pablo, why you care so much that Bill Belichick had a young girlfriend? This conversation could have gone on for hours, and there's definitely gonna have to be a part two, because Pablo has heart, he has depth, and a moral compass that drives the way he tells and investigates stories. Whether it's figuring out what a billionaire's done wrong to pay his star guard, or death row inmates who happen to love the Cowboys, Pablo always finds out. But today, he's the one in the hot seat.

• 1:56Speaker 01

  And Pivot fam, this one was a banger. So please welcome Pablo Torre to the Pivot.

• 2:22Ryan Clark?

  Pablo Torre, man. Welcome to the show. This is Channing Crowder, this is Fred Taylor, I'm Ryan Clark. Pivot family, thank you for pivoting with us. I'm gonna say this before this even starts. I am so glad I'm on this side of Pablo Torre finds out. Because I'm gonna let you know, you start investigating me, I'm signing a peace treaty day one.

• 2:42Channing Crowder?

  Are we sure we're on the other side? He's a young man now, don't look at me, Pablo.

• 2:46Speaker 04

  We got a lot of show left, I think.

• 2:49Ryan Clark?

  Man, but welcome. Congratulations to you and your entire team on this just incredible investigative reporting you've done. The Pulitzer Prize as well. That's a team award, but obviously, you know, you're the face of it. Three Sports Emmy nominations. I just think what you have done is phenomenal. But people kind of see that right now, and they don't know the journey. Right? And today, we want to talk a little bit about that. So I think I have this day right. Bring me back to February 24th, 2020.

• 3:18Ryan Clark?

  It was a day that a lot was happening, not only in the world, but in Pablo Torre's world. So talk to me about scrolling your phone in the hospital waiting on Violet.

• 3:29Speaker 04

  It is crazy that this all happened on the same day, but I am the father of a daughter who arrived in this world on February 24th, 2020. And she was three weeks early, and these things you can't plan. I realized immediately, I'm the type of, apparently, the type of dad who will be in the, we called it Uber Black that day, just to give you a sense of, we're gonna do this right.

• 3:56Speaker 04

  And I live in Manhattan, and I'm the type of dad I realized that isn't gonna yell at the driver. I'm gonna like, for some reason, you discover things about yourself. Like, I'm gonna be patiently like checking my watch and trying to get there as fast as possible, but I'm not gonna be the guy in the movie saying, step on it. You know, drive onto the fucking curb. It wasn't that. And as I'm learning these things about myself, we enter the waiting room, and I also learned that The New York Post has just published an article saying that my television show at ESPN has been canceled. And so, life arrives, and something very meaningful to me also goes away in public. And I just remember thinking to myself,

• 4:40Speaker 04

  I can't believe that when I think about the birth of Violet, my daughter, and my wife, who didn't take painkillers when giving birth. Like, the most NFL-like person in my family is my wife. Just like the toughness of giving birth without an epidural. I'm gonna remember all of this in the context of also like this headline, and that sucked. And I don't want sympathy. I just want to point out that sometimes the universe can make it feel like you're the main character for today. And that was what February 24th was like.

• 5:12Ryan Clark?

  It's crazy you talk about your wife giving birth without epidural. I watched the same thing with my children and my wife, and I just remember saying, hell, I'm not the toughest person in this family, because I didn't care how long that needle was. We not going through this without painkillers. So I can just imagine you being in that moment, but also receiving that sort of news.

• 5:35Channing Crowder?

  I passed out when I saw that little head pop out. They had to grab me and sit me down. I said, oh, what is that coming out of there? Goodness gracious. But before that, man, like, you're an intellect. You went to Harvard, magnum cum laude and stuff. And then you're on a show talking trash about sports. Like, how does that get there? Because a Harvard grad doesn't say, I'm gonna BS on TV all day, update.

• 6:00Speaker 04

  There was a point in my college education when I realized that my parents wouldn't totally understand why they came to this country.

• 6:09Channing Crowder?

  Two doctors, right?

• 6:10Speaker 04

  Yeah, I came from the Philippines. I'm the first one in my family born in the United States. And going to Harvard is the dream. It's the American dream for them and for me. And what I realized was that I wasn't going to pursue anything linear or structured in a way that would redeem, perhaps, the risk of coming here to invest money in me. You know, sports journalism isn't a thing that you go to Harvard to do. I loved covering sports in college. No one ever confused that for being a money-making enterprise. And so, for a long time, I was telling my parents, I'm gonna apply to law school. I'm going to apply to med school.

• 6:55Speaker 04

  And I tried, for the first part at least, law school, very hard, and then realized this just isn't the dream that I had in the end. And that's a crazy thing to tell your parents, like, hey, I'm gonna be a fact-checker at Sports Illustrated for $30,000. Thanks for the tuition.

• 7:15Ryan Clark?

  Yeah. How did those LSATs go, though? Because didn't you take them?

• 7:18Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 7:19Ryan Clark?

  Don't you, you trying to skirt around?

• 7:20Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, I was hoping you didn't do your investigation into me. Yeah, I took it twice. That's how obsessed I was. If you came to me with a genie in a lamp during the summer of 2005 or 2006, I would have wished for a great LSAT score.

• 7:40Speaker 04

  Just incredibly sad to say that out loud. But yeah, what you're, you know, maybe you guys would have wished for more wishes. Maybe you would have, you know, I didn't really consider that. Maybe you would have wished for whatever. I want to be the number one overall pick instead of, give me the best 40 time. You know, cut to the chase. No, I was obsessed with this test. And I took it and flop-sweated, choked. That's the only explanation, is that I cared so much about it that it sort of like crushed me under the weight of this expectation. And I resolved, I'm gonna take this shit again. And I studied another summer in the libraries, spent entirely too much time doing that.

• 8:25Speaker 04

  And before I took the test, I realized I should also just come up with a backup plan. And so, that's when it was like, well, what if I just go and do the thing that I was doing for fun, which is sports writing? What if I got this fact-checker job? And I took that job and started the Monday after the weekend I took this stupid LSAT the second time.

• 8:49Speaker 04

  Which isn't, again, not, you guys have better war stories. My shit is about the time I studied too hard and felt bad about it.

• 8:57Ryan Clark?

  But that also led to a panic attack, though.

• 9:00Speaker 04

  It was something that wasn't clinically diagnosed, but I can only recognize as feeling like I was not in control. And I recognize that now, and I don't really have any other explanation other than, okay, when your heart beats that fast, and when you're sweating that much, and when you can just imagine the bad things that are happening, and you lose track of time. That's what that felt like to me.

• 9:28Fred Taylor?

  So the expectations going into it, were those yours? Or the expectations of growing up in a household of high achievers and your parents?

• 9:37Speaker 04

  I think in retrospect, I can say that I bought into a level of pressure that is familiar probably to any son or daughter of immigrants or people who are trying to make it. You know, it's that thing of I inherited some element of expectation, but my kink, I look at Channing when I say kink. I look, my kink was like achieving, was success in my own way. And so it's not that I was put under the boot of some expectation. It's that I got off on it.

• 10:21Speaker 04

  And then you realize, oh, my God, what if this thing is not the thing I was meant to do? What if it's the thing that my body is telling me like, you're doing this the wrong way? And only in retrospect do I realize that the thing that I would have labeled as my greatest disappointment, as somebody who was gearing his life to do this thing, to achieve, to go get this, yet another fancy diploma. That failure was the greatest gift that ever happened to me.

• 10:52Ryan Clark?

  Say, bro, do y'all remember when Clay Matthews got his looks maxed? I'm talking about like ridiculous jawline, balloon biceps, them huge calf implants, which by the way, I wouldn't be mad if I could get some of those.

• 11:08Fred Taylor?

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• 11:13Channing Crowder?

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• 11:22Fred Taylor?

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• 11:32Channing Crowder?

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• 12:12Fred Taylor?

  And I have a follow up just because I'm curious to know, how do you, how do you describe success?

• 12:19Speaker 04

  Now I think about it incredibly differently because now, and I say this on a set with three guys who are living this. Success to me is being able to follow the thing you're authentically getting off on. Looking at Channing again, I can't help it.

• 12:36Channing Crowder?

  Hey, man, you fine, brother. Hell, we know the room.

• 12:40Speaker 04

  It's, it's, it's what do you actually really enjoy doing in life? Such that the process is the thing that you get off on, right? It's the thing of if we're just going to be results oriented, then the version of success that you are chasing is one that I have, it turns out documented and reported on over and over again, which is someone wins and it still feels like a loss. And you see that with the richest people on the world. You see this with every athlete, you know? Why is Michael, why is Michael Jordan?

• 13:18Ryan Clark?

  Still doing.

• 13:19Speaker 04

  Still unhappy? Why is Charles Barkley seemingly thrilled with what he's got going? You realize that it's not just about the marker of achievement. It's about what are you doing day to day? That feels like it's giving you something like a purpose. And so success to me is far more, not to be, you know, process over results guy, but the only thing I can think of is I've met so many people who've won, who've made a ton of money going to Harvard. I was the, another lame thing, but like I was the 199th person to join Facebook. What does that mean? It means I was in a dorm with Mark Zuckerberg's now wife freshman year. And she sends an email saying, hey, can you guys sign up for Mark's new website? So this is to say that I was close enough to Facebook

• 14:03Speaker 04

  to feel like I was a minor character in the social network, right? Like I can imagine, oh, I'm in the background somewhere. But at the same time, I made $0.00 and watched some of the richest people in the world come out of the same ecosystem I was in. And yet I look at someone like Mark Zuckerberg and I'm like, man, that guy is a success and he won. And I see all of the things that he is chasing to try and fill that void.

• 14:28Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 14:29Speaker 04

  He's out here fucking doing mixed martial arts. He's wearing weird big T-shirts. He has a new haircut. It's just like he's still figuring out the stuff that doesn't come with the win or what you classify as a win. And so I've just been trying to chase things that allow me to feel like I'm meant to do this and I enjoy it. And if we get a Pulitzer Prize, amazing, but that's,

• 14:55Speaker 04

  as I'm on the therapy couch with you guys immediately, what I realize is that if I'm only going to judge whether I succeeded based on did I win some prize? Or get the score, you're setting yourself up to be constantly panicking.

• 15:08Ryan Clark?

  Yeah. That resonates with me because I always have the conversation about the process, conversation about the journey as opposed to the destination. A lot of that formed for me because I was in a business or I loved the thing that was subjectively judged, right? I loved football, but if this coach didn't think I was good enough, he could tell me that the thing that you love doesn't love you back the same way. And that made me a process person because it made me a, as long as I do what I'm supposed to do along the journey, I can be comfortable with the result. Made me a process person in the game, right? If I've worked six days the way I'm supposed to and Randy Moss catches a football over my head, it's just because he left the hospital with more than me.

• 15:52Ryan Clark?

  How much of some of those failures or some of the things that didn't live up to expectations, the shows being canceled, the LSATs helped you develop this mindset of let me do something I love? Let me find a passion and not focus on the results?

• 16:09Speaker 04

  The thing that crystallized for me was at all of these stops along my personal trajectory, nothing ever felt like it was truly me until you get to start something yourself. And so the process becomes not something that you're inheriting because here is the agenda for the day, whether it's your coach doing that or your GM or your boss. The agenda for the day is something that you are designing. And if you look at all the things I have been doing, the things I failed to do, whether it is, man, I thought I was going to be a lawyer working in some corporate office or some constitutional scholar or some shit.

• 16:52Speaker 04

  Or, man, I thought I was going to be inheriting PTI from Tony Kornheiser and Mike Wilbon. Man, I thought I was going to be on television for the rest of my life. None of those things individually are mine. It is me fitting into the system of someone else and thinking, man, I could do that. And I loved for a long time feeling like you could plug me into anything and I would make it work. And sort of versatility became this euphemism for like, oh, man, you can plug in in all these places. Cool. But now when I realize like what this thing that I've built is, what PTO finds out is, PTO, it is a show where I feel like sometimes I am doing legal work.

• 17:35Speaker 04

  I am laughing with my friends and arguing on television. I am getting to talk sports in a way that feels differentiated. And so I realized that unconsciously, genuinely, I built this show that is the culmination of all the things I enjoyed in real terms, but created it such that I had the freedom to actually make it feel like this is me as opposed to someone else's.

• 18:01Ryan Clark?

  When did the realization that Pablo Torre finds out, your staff, yourself, when did the realization hit that on September 3rd, 2025, you changed the basketball world?

• 18:14Speaker 04

  Man, I thought that episode was going to be a lot less popular than our Jordan Hudson episode.

• 18:21Ryan Clark?

  We're going to get to that.

• 18:24Speaker 04

  I was hoping we would.

• 18:26Ryan Clark?

  Yeah, we would.

• 18:27Speaker 04

  I didn't think that that episode was gonna be as viral, which is like the first standard of is this resonating? You see it first on the internet. But the next level was this is making an impact inside of the rooms with the locked doors where billionaires sit. That's what was different about that story. It went around and it was surprising because this is a story on some level about carbon credits and environmental startups and salary cap circumvention and the collective bargaining agreement. I've said a bunch of words that are-

• 19:01Ryan Clark?

  Heavy words.

• 19:02Speaker 04

  They're not-

• 19:03Ryan Clark?

  Sexy.

• 19:04Speaker 04

  You don't plug them in with hashtags into your SEO for your episode.

• 19:07Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 19:08Speaker 04

  Hashtag carbon credits is not getting you discovered in the algorithm.

• 19:11Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 19:11Speaker 04

  Right? So this was all working against the spread of what I thought was an important story. But when you see Steve Ballmer, the owner of the Clippers, the richest owner in American sports, a guy who depending on the day and date is worth $170 billion, the ninth richest man in the world. He's the single individual largest shareholder, I believe, still in Microsoft. When that guy shows up on ESPN about a day later to sit across from Ramona Shelburne and give an interview denying everything. And I know what we have and I know what he doesn't know that we have yet. I'm thinking to myself, okay. So the guy we're talking about who refused to comment,

• 19:56Speaker 04

  refused to participate in the lead up to this, he's taking this quite seriously. And that told me everything about what the upside in terms of impact might be.

• 20:05Ryan Clark?

  And when you do the investigative reporting, at some point you have to hit that point where this is about to change people's lives. This is about to, if I'm a Clippers fan, you just ruined my organization for a decade. Bro, I ain't got five picks. Like, when that hits your mind, does it fuel you more or does it make you pull back?

• 20:28Speaker 04

  I realize something about myself in terms of the fear around frankly, legal liability, around blowback from fans, which is that that all pales in comparison to the excitement of, I think we're on to the real story here and we can prove it. And that's that sort of like suppressed lawyer in me, which is that I cannot wait to try this case. And I don't have the legal budget. I got one lawyer. I got Dan Lebatard. Speaking of sweat, the sweatiest man in the world. You know, like that's who's backing me along with our team and God bless them genuinely.

• 21:09Speaker 04

  Because if they were to say to me, this is not worth it. Look at what it costs to frivolously file a lawsuit. These are costs that are totally unimportant to the guy we're investigating. Do you really want to do this? They trusted me and I showed them the work. And so the excitement of we think that we can show people not just our work, but the story that some of the richest people in sports don't want you to know. That was the crystallizing moment of I think I've found my calling. And I do feel bad for Clipper fans. I do.

• 21:49Speaker 04

  One of the heartbreaking things that Clipper fans tell me today is you're using us for clicks. And I'm like, guys, if I was holding a draft of all the teams in sports that I would use for clicks. I know the SEO. The Clippers are pretty far down there, man.

• 22:10Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 22:10Speaker 04

  There are not enough of you guys for me to exploit you, is what I wanted to tell the Clipper fans as I'm like recognizing the cynicism of what they might suspect. And at the same time, you know, I just gotta keep on saying like, we're telling the story. We didn't do this.

• 22:26Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 22:28Speaker 04

  The guys who now have been proven all sorts of ways to have done this are the ones who did this.

• 22:59Ryan Clark?

  What percentage of the investigative work is sourced or brought forward by like whistleblowers? Or people who kind of just wanna, they got the information, but they want to remove themselves from the public and they kind of trust that you'll get it done?

• 23:12Speaker 04

  It's a great question. We rely on human sources so often. And what I'm talking about are at times whistleblowers, people who are brave enough to say, we think you should know about this. It comes at some risk to me personally to even be possibly one day identified as the source on a story like this. And the question I have for them almost immediately is, do you have any documents? Do you have evidence? Do you have something that allows me to trust you? And I will go and for that story, the aspiration Clippers story, I flew across the country to meet people. I vet them. I walk into places that I don't know if I'm walking into a trap. I don't know if I'm getting got. These are some of the risks that I take.

• 23:54Speaker 04

  But the real largest considerations come in terms of a person who does not have anything like the resources of the person they're blowing the whistle on. It's when they reach out to a journalist that vows, I will protect you. I will go to prison before I tell the world who you are. Which is, that's the code.

• 24:18Ryan Clark?

  That's big.

• 24:18Speaker 04

  That's the code. I mean, I can't do this work unless people trust me. And I can't do this work if regularly you're realizing this guy is giving me up because he's trading my information up the chain to get more and I'm getting fucked in the process. It's really important that human sources come forward when they have something that's really worth verifying. And then for me, it's about how can we not rely on your perhaps biased, individualized experience and get to something like objective data and information? And so it goes right then to the documents.

• 25:00Ryan Clark?

  The piece you released, Marine Corps, that deal.

• 25:03Speaker 04

  Yeah, with Kawhi.

• 25:04Ryan Clark?

  Right. The NBA acted. Basically, you won. You did a good job. But I guess my question is why are you still investigating?

• 25:15Speaker 04

  Because the story isn't over yet. Something that happened when the NBA ruled and it seemed like this was over was that the story in a sense actually started. And this is crazy because that episode we just released about Kawhi Leonard and Boingo Wireless and this-

• 25:32Ryan Clark?

  That piece.

• 25:32Speaker 04

  And this base, this military base and the Clippers. The reason part 17 just got published is because at a certain point in our investigation, it became clear to us that the federal government was also investigating. And so when the Department of Justice via the New York Times, it's announced that they are, they've now subpoenaed one entity. As we record today, they are investigating the Clippers for these no-show jobs. And so the question is why? And immediately, I just gotta clarify for people who haven't seen all 17 parts, which is insane to keep saying that we've done 17 plus hours of this shit. But it's not just a story about capture convention.

• 26:14Speaker 04

  It's a story of what public companies, what entities like aspiration and Boingo Wireless and Daktronics, the scoreboard operator and this other company Locked In Insurance. It's what these companies schemed with the richest man in sports and what they told the public on their SEC filings. And so if you're saying this looks like a capture convention scheme to the sports world, I say, yes, absolutely. But to the government, what they're investigating now, and they're investigating the Clippers, Daktronics, and they've investigated aspiration now for over a year.

• 26:57Speaker 04

  What they're looking into is whether there might be a conspiracy to commit securities fraud. And that's where- And now we're, forget about the sports thing. Now we're in the real world shit.

• 27:10Ryan Clark?

  Yeah.

• 27:10Speaker 04

  And so when it comes to why is Steve Ballmer never admitting that he knew anything about the capture convention? Why is he still torturing these statements that he's releasing so that he accepts the punishment and acknowledges the distraction but doesn't admit to the actual meat and potatoes of what was happening here? It's because that has implications in whatever is left of our criminal justice system as we live in a strange time with the president also being across federal agencies, right? So it's a crazy yes and this shit's still going and it's kind of just starting in that regard.

• 27:43Ryan Clark?

  So, right, when I look at investigative reporting, right? You said there's a code, right? There's a code of integrity that I think what your show and what you have as an individual, I think you've raised the integrity of investigative journalism, right? And I read something that you said that you don't want it to have to be proven or accepted by the entity for people to be able to trust what's being said. How do you weigh the people involved, right? Like when I hear Steve Ballmer, like I'm not a Clippers fan or a Steve Ballmer fan. I have really no sympathy for him. So I'm like, oh, if he gets caught up in this, then he gets caught up in this, you know? And then I look at LifeSearch and Tim Tebow.

• 28:28Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 28:29Ryan Clark?

  Right? Who has a legion of supporters and fans who feel a certain way about him.

• 28:35Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 28:35Ryan Clark?

  And now you're doing a story on LifeSearch and what they're doing and how they're bringing people in to get their money in these investment schemes. But Tim Tebow is attached to it. How do you weigh the people that will be implicated against finding the, I guess, finding the foundation or the bottom line of the story?

• 28:56Speaker 04

  Our standard for an investigation is that we consider the public interest. And so what does this mean? The public interest is like this almost cliche that you hear sometimes, but no one really thinks about what it really entails. And for us, the question is, is this story relevant to what you, the average person in America, is not being told?

• 29:22Ryan Clark?

  Okay.

• 29:22Speaker 04

  What's the conversation happening behind closed doors? What is the conversation you are hearing? So I'll speak about it, big picture, and then we can get into the LifeSearch and the Tebow stuff. Big picture, I just think we're living in the golden age of scams. And I say that because there has never been more of it that I am personally seeing. You look into one rabbit hole and there's a warren of other boroughs connected. I say that also because we're living at a time when we can't necessarily rely on the federal agencies to regulate. You know, and I don't want to just jump into the politics of this, but that's the era we're living in. Flows of money are being hidden from us.

• 30:05Speaker 04

  Lots of people are getting rich and the people who are footing the bill are people who don't have the education, the wherewithal, the resources, the foresight, the money to defend themselves. And so who's doing due diligence? Who is trying to figure out as a former fact checker, is this fact true?

• 30:24Channing Crowder?

  Right.

• 30:25Speaker 04

  So we didn't discover Life Surge. You Google it, there are lots of complaints, lots of allegations already. But what resonated with me is that this was allegedly the story of a company using religion, using faith to prey upon people who were objectively vulnerable. And that part, look, I grew up, I went through K to 12, went to Catholic school, altar server, parents incredibly religious from the Philippines, where Tim Tebow happens to be born, by the way. Born in the Philippines, son of missionaries. Some of his story I've always admired from afar, genuinely. And for me, the question of what is this company?

• 31:08Speaker 04

  What are they doing in these classes where they're pressuring, allegedly? They are pressuring single mothers, people who don't have financial education to sign up for classes that cost tens of thousands of dollars so they can learn how to invest. They can learn how to make real estate deals. They can get rich and become even more blessed by God. This is an ancient story, not pioneered by Life Surge, but was different for me, as a guy who comes at this with the lens of sports, is why are they dressing themselves up not just in the costume of religion, it seems, but in the costume of sports? And Tim Tebow, being the guy who was at the very first one of these things as a headliner, I'm like, okay, it's perhaps understandable.

• 31:52Speaker 04

  On the very first one, you don't totally understand what this is gonna be. But then he appears at 43 more. And so if you just do the math, we're talking about if his speaking base rate is accurate, millions of dollars. Forty-four times in total, was scheduled for 10 more events until reporters asked him about our investigation and he paused his relationship. And then said that he was caught by surprise on the investigation when we had provided 18 questions ahead of time before publication about here are our concerns. You, Tim Tebow, are a champion, and this is real, a champion of vulnerable people.

• 32:34Speaker 04

  He's giving testimony on Capitol Hill about defending children from predators. And that is incredibly important work.

• 32:42Speaker 04

  Our hypothesis here was that we should go to him before publication, not just so he can explain the story, but because perhaps he would want to participate with us. He has now said he's launching an investigation and I welcome that investigation. We also thought he might want to learn more from us directly before this even was published because this would be horrifying to learn about. If these allegations are true, if our reporting is correct, if our current and former employees at Life Surge are telling us the truth, if the customers at Life Surge who got on tape with us are telling us the truth, if these documents are telling us the truth, that this might be something to get out ahead of instead of respond to.

• 33:22Speaker 04

  And so the story of Life Surge is this case study in God and sports converging. And we live at a time when God and sports being used against the people who worship both. That's the public interest.

• 33:38Channing Crowder?

  Wow. And I was like, between the Life Surge, Tebow, and the Kawhi, Ballmer stuff, like the Life Surge stuff, it's fucked up. You messing, you're messing people out of money that they really don't have and you're using religion and you're using a-

• 33:52Speaker 04

  Take out multiple credit cards, take out loans against the equity value of your home.

• 33:56Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 33:56Speaker 04

  That sort of predatory, allegedly predatory stuff.

• 33:59Channing Crowder?

  And that's, like I said, it's fucked up. But on the Kawhi side, it's a billionaire with a bunch of billionaire friends that's gonna give somebody some money so they can, like, you're protecting those religious people in Life Surge? Are you protecting the NBA? You're protecting the CBA? Like, that side of the story, I don't feel sorry for anybody.

• 34:17Speaker 04

  Yeah, no, and this is a reasonable question and of course, these stories are quite different. The story of the Clippers and Ballmer and Kawhi and now the federal government is also though, the story of people who invested in some of these companies on the premise that they were being told in SEC filings and disclosures that this is the truth. And what happens if you're actually propping up companies according to our reporting at times because you're just trying to funnel money to a guy that you know you can't pay because you obey sports law?

• 34:50Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 34:51Speaker 04

  What about the real world? What about people are putting, and so I should just say that in LA, in civil court right now, there are 11 aspiration investors who are suing Steve Ballmer for fraud. I'm not a part of that case. That is their own prerogative to file, that's not my business in terms of backing the lawsuit. But these are some of the concerns that people who trusted their money to these entities have claimed. And I should also say though, that the premise of the golden age of scams that we're living in, what I mean even more specifically is that we are living in the golden age of financial crime. And what is financial crime? Sports has a fascinating ecosystem for us to examine in this way.

• 35:33Speaker 04

  Financial crime is basically, there are rules you have to abide by when it comes to where your money is going and what you gotta tell the public about. Sports, of course, is deeply financially regulated and I'm not here to say, by the way, that I personally think that the salary cap is a commandment that must be enacted because we're going to hell if we don't respect it. I don't give a fuck about the salary cap.

• 35:58Speaker 04

  If you wanna, if you wanna renegotiate the next CBA and say, we're uncapped, right? I get it completely. You're suppressing the wages of the highest earners, right? You can get into union dynamics, but I don't care about the salary cap as a moral consideration. I care about financial crime as the question of, is it even possible to hold the richest people accountable when it comes to what they are doing with their money? When they know that they're breaking the rules that govern the thing that we all are supposed to care about? And so in sports, financial crime can be a metaphor for the real world. What I just said applies, of course, to like Wall Street.

• 36:41Speaker 04

  I also think it matters because in sports, I hear this all the time when I talk to owners now, to these billionaires, and they say, man, I entered sports because I wanted to have fun. And it turns out that fans, commenters are on my ass criticizing me for my second round pick. And they don't care about the billion dollar deal I made in Silicon Valley. Sports fans are obsessed with minutia. And the question is, what if we harness the degree of care that people had for sports and put it towards something like holding the wealthiest people accountable? And in sports, with the Clippers story, we proved that that's possible.

• 37:23Speaker 04

  And the victory there is not a victory for the salary cap, it's a victory for having to tell the public the truth about what your money's doing. Because you know that if they're doing it in sports, they're doing it in other places. This is not, again, new, this is an ancient trend. And I just am delighted by the fact that we made something resembling consequences happen.

• 37:46Channing Crowder?

  Yeah. I don't, it didn't resemble it, that was, I feel like that was an immense, like intense and heavy, I guess, punishment for a team based on, on what was reported and what they also investigated. And that all started with your story.

• 38:03Speaker 04

  Well, and you said something earlier that I wanna also quickly touch on, which is, I just said, man, I'm about process and not results. And now we're talking about the value of results, a punishment, consequences. And this is where I am a hypocrite.

• 38:24Speaker 04

  I tell myself all the time that the process is what matters. It's all you can control, as you as a football player, as you guys all know in your, in your day jobs now, right? You can't force the algorithm to like your episode, you just gotta do the best shit possible, play the game as best you can. I consider it sometimes like you're putting something on the altar for a sun god. You're like, is this going viral today? And you just sort of pray, right? You can't control that.

• 38:52Channing Crowder?

  Yeah.

• 38:53Speaker 04

  Just the process of what are you putting on this, on this table for people to see? With this stuff though, with consequences for financial crime, consequences for investigative journalism, it is so important that people, fans, potential audience, but really just like everyday people, they see that consequences are still possible. And the reason I say it's important for them to see it is because if we get to a point where people just assume that flagrant shit can just pass by without any sort of reckoning, where we are fucked as a society. Because if people just feel like it's not worth caring about, if financial crime can

• 39:38Speaker 04

  happen, but they're not gonna do anything anyway, that not only lessens the possibility that my job means something, it makes it more likely that more scams are gonna take place. And so it is public interest. Is the public interested in consequences? How do you get them interested? You show them that all is not lost. That something like a fact can be checked and therefore be held as a suit of armor that I can wear to walk into a hypothetical courtroom against a guy with 170 billion dollars. I'm not here to like taunt or spike the football on Steve Ballmer. But what I do wanna make clear is that if I did not have the confidence that the truth was gonna protect us-

• 40:22Speaker 04

  I would have shit my pants months ago. For real. That's just math. And because, and this is where like I am a bit, I am a bit, you know, son of immigrants coming to America, sort of thing. Because that's what is cool about this country. Is ostensibly, despite appearances, one of the 10 richest people in the world can be held accountable by a dude with a podcast. That doesn't happen in other countries that we might be turning into if the rule of law doesn't matter anymore, if people aren't interested in defending it.

• 41:04Speaker 00

  This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini and Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration blog, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses set up require compatibility and availability varies 18 plus.

• 41:29Fred Taylor?

  It also makes me think, I wonder if Kawhi, Tim, if they themselves knew they were just props and also being preyed upon, if you even considered that? Because your book, How and Why Athletes Go Broke, right? You speak about athletes being preyed upon. That also uncovered federal scrutiny into that investment company. But it kind of all ties together that athletes are easily preyed upon. So my question is just that. Like, do you think they even knew that? They were, you know, part of these schemes and just being simply preyed upon?

• 42:06Speaker 04

  It's something that I think about all the time. I think the value of using a public figure is clear. And I think that an athlete is historically one of the most common targets for scams. And Fred, I just gotta say, in that story I did for Sports Illustrated, How and Why Athletes Go Broke,

• 42:26Speaker 04

  I learned about shit that happened to you.

• 42:27Fred Taylor?

  Yeah, yeah.

• 42:28Speaker 04

  Which is, and I don't want to just talk about Tank Black.

• 42:31Fred Taylor?

  It's wide open. I prefer it that way, especially in this NIO era.

• 42:35Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 42:36Fred Taylor?

  Kids need to understand and know that it can happen by close friends.

• 42:41Speaker 04

  You were betrayed by a guy who went to prison, Tank Black, former agent. And when I saw that story, and I'm like, oh, by the way, it's not just Fred. It's a roster of people.

• 42:50Fred Taylor?

  Yeah.

• 42:51Speaker 04

  And so the question reminds me of like showing up at church. It's like, we put our faith in something, that faith gets abused. And are there consequences for people who abuse it? In the story of Kawhi Leonard and Tim Tebow, the question I have for both of them, and have had it for months, is

• 43:10Speaker 04

  which side of this are you on? And the only way I can discern that is to know what you knew and when you knew it. And I'm not trying to be a federal prosecutor. I am trying to understand what the story is. Because what I can say about Tim Tebow in this case is that there are lots of people who say, I only showed up to this event because I was hoping that I would hear Tim Tebow speak. He's the headliner. He is the face on the poster. And along the way, they realize I'm getting pressured into giving up tens of thousands of my own hard-earned money, my retirement fund, because I'm also being told by the same people who are bringing me Tim Tebow,

• 43:53Speaker 04

  you're gonna maximize your kingdom impact if you trust us. And I want to know from Tebow,

• 44:02Speaker 04

  did any of the concerns that were raised to you over time, and I wasn't the first outlet to raise it to him directly, it turns out, did that give you pause as you spoke 44 times? What did you know and when did you know it? In the case of Kawhi, you know, it's interesting, the question of like a smoking gun was always a thing around Steve Ballmer. How can you prove that he knew it? And Kawhi's case, what we do have is documents with his signature, DocuSign. Now, I will then say, as your story and the story of many athletes always reminds me, it's not that hard to DocuSign for someone else. You can sign a paper for someone else, and that's okay.

• 44:44Speaker 04

  But then, in this episode, which you asked about before, about Boingo Wireless and this Marine Corps autograph signing, we have the example for the first time of a thing that Kawhi did for one of his no-show jobs where he showed up.

• 44:59Speaker 04

  And so the question is, how do you show up for a job you didn't know you had?

• 45:02Fred Taylor?

  Right.

• 45:03Channing Crowder?

  Wow.

• 45:04Speaker 04

  And so we are asking questions. Like, I'm not here to say,

• 45:08Speaker 04

  send him to jail at all. What I'm saying is, why is no one saying the thing that we are discovering with increasing clarity, which is that the public wasn't told the truth?

• 45:23Channing Crowder?

  Public, I got it, because I know Metallar, you and Dan are cool. I got a funny Dan story before my next question. So, you know, I played for the Dolphins. Dan's down there. Dan covers Dolphins. I'm on radio at this time, I just retired. And Dan, you know, insulted me on air. Nothing crazy, he kind of threw some linebacker's name in, and he was like, this guy is just another Derek Pope, Channing Crowder. He's not gonna be a Zach Thomas. Like, he just used my name as kind of like a lead up to a kind of hierarchy of linebackers with the Dolphins. But some of the dudes that I know down in South Florida that are, that live a different lifestyle, one of them called me and said, hey, man, Dan Lebatard disrespected you on air.

• 46:06Channing Crowder?

  My girlfriend works on South Beach, she sees him all the time. Do you want me to handle this?

• 46:13Channing Crowder?

  And I was like, what do you, like, handle what? He was like, we can let him know not to say your name anymore. And I was kind of like, no, no, no, no, no, it's cool. Like, don't worry, you know? But you're not dealing with a Dan Lebatard, you're dealing with billionaires. I watch, I might watch too much Lioness and Scandal.

• 46:32Channing Crowder?

  You know what I'm saying? Like, you are shaking up the world of extremely powerful, high-income people. And you say you protect your sources, you protect all these people? It's called Pablo Torres finds out what these people are doing. You have no fear? Do you have a security detail? Are you just jumping in Uber economics?

• 46:57Ryan Clark?

  He walked across the street by himself, so.

• 46:59Channing Crowder?

  I would be somewhat concerned if I was you.

• 47:03Speaker 04

  I grow more concerned the more that people I meet are asking, are you concerned? I allude to this before, but I don't, and this is like the perfect clip to play in the immemoriam segment for me, by the way. I'm not that worried.

• 47:24Speaker 04

  It's like black and white, like 1985 to 2026.

• 47:30Speaker 04

  If I felt that every day I couldn't do this job, and maybe I should feel it more, is sort of where I am on it, the math of it is undeniable. If you have billions upon billions of dollars, it's not that hard to fuck with someone. On the range of, can you get rid of this guy? Can you make his life scarier? You know, I mentioned I have a wife, I have a daughter, we live in New York City. I walk around all the time. Sometimes I'm like, you know, mildly lightly stoned, just like listening to music.

• 48:06Speaker 04

  Not that hard to run up on me.

• 48:10Speaker 04

  I may be in a semi-meditative state.

• 48:14Speaker 04

  And I am probably a bit naive in that regard.

• 48:20Speaker 04

  But I also think that,

• 48:26Speaker 04

  no, I have no spin. It's scary. It can be scary.

• 48:30Ryan Clark?

  I think it's one of those things that I think impresses me more about the level of work and dedication you have in figuring out what's truly happening in these stories. I'll have to be honest with you, I didn't like Pablo Torre for a little bit.

• 48:48Ryan Clark?

  The Jordan Hudson, Bill Belichick, right? You sent me a text as we speak about code.

• 48:53Speaker 04

  Yep.

• 48:53Ryan Clark?

  As we speak about code, and I didn't comment, I didn't get involved. And part of that is my code, right? Someone lets me into their lives, their relationship, someone treats me a certain way, I'm not betraying that.

• 49:08Speaker 04

  Absolutely.

• 49:09Ryan Clark?

  That is not something that I'm comfortable doing, or that I want to be the foundation of my level of loyalty. But I always wondered why someone's relationship became the topic of discussion for someone who's doing as deep a dives into very important things as you.

• 49:29Speaker 04

  So, I should say first of all, that of course I had to ask you, because I am always gonna just make sure I understand something as accurately as I can. And that includes, by the way, going to people who I may suspect, and it's very understandable, they're friends with this person. I'm also looking for the other side of the story, genuinely.

• 49:55Speaker 04

  I also don't expect anybody whose friend is perhaps a subject of a story I'm working on to participate with me. No, how dare you. No, Ryan, I'm so disappointed. None of that. I live in the real world. If someone's investigating Dan Lebatard, by the way, and they call me and they say, hey, could you give us some dirt on this guy? We think he's, I don't know.

• 50:16Ryan Clark?

  Sweaty?

• 50:18Speaker 04

  Smuggling cocaine under a sweaty shirt. I would say, I probably can't help you. You know, there's some things that are obvious to me. Why is Bill Belichick somebody that I took seriously in this regard? I should say, first of all, my show is also a show about my curiosity. And so we will also investigate things that are stupid. This is not one of those stories, but I just want to let people know. We also did an episode, truly, where our investigation was which athlete branded strain of weed is the best.

• 50:56Ryan Clark?

  That was cool.

• 50:56Channing Crowder?

  That was a good one.

• 50:57Speaker 04

  And what I learned, what I found out was that Gary Payton, his name, image, and likeness is going towards some incredible gas. At the same time, Gary Payton himself does not smoke. Exactly. Anyway, that's the sort of thing we do on one side of the spectrum. The story of Belichick, though, the reason why his relationship was so interesting to me was because I grew up regarding him as not just the greatest football coach of all time, but the paragon of how to live your life a certain way. No distractions, no days off, privacy as this thing that shielded not just how he did

• 51:39Speaker 04

  his process, but how he then ended up winning more than anyone else. And so when Belichick starts doing, frankly, our business, he starts doing media. And by the way, at times, he's really good at it.

• 51:55Ryan Clark?

  Yes.

• 51:55Speaker 04

  Like, watching Bill Belichick nerd out on football, it's the thing that you got when he would give 3,000-word answers to, what do you think about left-footed punters? And you're like, we're about to get a senior thesis about this. And that's incredible.

• 52:10Ryan Clark?

  Right.

• 52:10Speaker 04

  Really good at that. It was the other stuff, though, where it was like, this doesn't feel like him. And it's not because I know him, but it's because he is a public figure who's the paragon of living a certain way. And so the question becomes, I want to find out what's changed. And what you see is a Super Bowl commercial in which Bill Belichick is doing this Dunkin' Donuts ad alongside the Boston-area Avengers, you know, Damon and Affleck and all these people. And right next to him is Jordan Hudson. And the question becomes, how did she get into the commercial? That's something that you don't see every day. We all know famous people. Their significant others aren't necessarily in all the ads.

• 52:53Speaker 04

  That's notable for the largest platform for marketing on earth. And you make some calls, which you then realize is that she negotiated that deal. And then you're like, okay, I'm familiar with being all up in the videos. That's not a new thing. Jordan Hudson did not invent that art. But it is different when you are the business partner to a guy who operates so privately, absent distractions, and suddenly he is very public and incredibly distracted. And so this is not me saying, let me relationship doctor Bill Belichick's private life.

• 53:33Speaker 04

  It's when that same guy becomes the highest-paid public employee in the state of North Carolina, which is what you are when you get $10 million a year to run the Tar Heels football program. And you're making decisions like, I'm gonna hire Mike Lombardi, paying 1.5, highest-paid GM in college football. I'm gonna trust on my other shoulder Jordan Hudson, who's the head of my production company, who's having me do all these different things. It started with, I want to take a stupid thing seriously. Let me solve the mystery of, why is this person in this Super Bowl commercial? And then it was, what has changed when it comes to the greatest coach of all time? And I'm somebody who unfortunately finds sports interesting.

• 54:17Speaker 04

  I cover Bill Belichick the way someone might cover the president. He's that degree of significance to me. I grew up watching him. We know how fucking incredible he is. His resume is impeccable. What if we take him seriously and have some fun in the process? And that second part, the fun in the process, is where, if you are Bill Simmons, if you are Ryan Clark, wherever you are on the spectrum of like, you're going too far. I totally understand. And I'm constantly trying to figure out, how can I both have fun with something as well as take it seriously?

• 54:58Ryan Clark?

  I respect that answer.

• 54:59Fred Taylor?

  Pablo, I think we got another police waiting on you. How can we take Dallas Cowboy fans seriously? You're right on that. You might hit it out.

• 55:11Speaker 04

  You want us to, we're gonna start a brain bank for Cowboys fans.

• 55:15Fred Taylor?

  That works.

• 55:16Ryan Clark?

  I have a question. I know, but we have to close. I think it's, I don't want to get his name wrong, Charles Don Flores?

• 55:23Speaker 04

  Yes.

• 55:24Ryan Clark?

  Can you just, talk about somebody that's on death row? And then you figure out this Cowboy fandom?

• 55:31Speaker 04

  This is a Cowboy fan that I have gotten to know. His name is Charles Don Flores. We visited him in Texas. He's on death row. And the story we started with was one of those, this seems stupid, but we want to take it seriously. In the state of Texas, there's a database, there used to be a database, in which you could see the last words of the inmates being executed. Whatever your views are on capital punishment, this was a window into what you choose to do with literally your last breath. And so many of these inmates, they shouted out their favorite sports team. The number of, how about them Cowboys?

• 56:13Speaker 04

  Let's go Cowboys at the very end. It was startling. And the question that I had as a reporter was, why? Like, why is this repeatedly happening so often that, as we made more and more calls, this is just a thing people know about on death row? Why, among all the allegiances you can claim before you enter whatever comes after this, do you want to shout out the fucking Cowboys? And this brought us, this sort of like, what is going on here? That sort of instinct brought us to the story of Charles Don Flores, who, and I got to say this, and I'll do it quickly,

• 56:58Speaker 04

  but we've done multiple episodes with him now. I've visited him on death row myself, through the glass, was put behind bars.

• 57:05Ryan Clark?

  Accessory.

• 57:06Speaker 04

  Because the witness who identified him was hypnotized by the police. Police hypnosis is a junk science that has now been outlawed in the state of Texas. But when Charles Don Flores was on trial, it was legal. And a witness, and there's a video of this. We played the video in the episode. We obtained it. A video of police hypnosis. And when I tell you it's not so different from you are getting sleepy, I mean, this is wild shit. And so the state of Texas eventually outlaws this. But because of the way that our legal system works, it doesn't apply retroactively to people who are already behind bars.

• 57:50Speaker 04

  And so Charles Don Flores, in the absence of DNA evidence tying him to the crime scene, in the absence of witness testimony other than this person who was hypnotized, in the absence of anything that dissuaded us from wanting to tell his story, which has now been taken up by the Innocence Project and lots of really well-meaning lawyers who are just working because they think this man is unjustly about to be executed. In the absence of that evidence, I realized this is a dude that if I show up in Texas to talk to one-on-one, he'll probably just want to talk about sports. And so that's the beginning of our episode. It's, I basically do, funny enough, how does my job now fill in the gaps of the things I didn't get to do?

• 58:33Speaker 04

  I basically co-host a segment of PTI with Charles Flores about the Cowboys. And then we explain to everybody what it's like to actually be on death row. What's it like to be in isolation 23 hours a day for a crime that we believe Charles Flores did not commit? How do you not drive yourself insane? How do you commit to a process every day on death row as you become one of the worst things you can be, which is a long-tenured member of death row? You're watching people get executed. You remain. You're appealing your case over and over again. The state of Texas is not interested in hearing that appeal. We have circulated petitions.

• 59:16Speaker 04

  I will put it again when this episode comes out in our social feeds. We just want people to know that this stuff is happening and that a guy like Charles Flores, at the very least, he deserves to have his case heard and his story heard. Because when you realize, man, this guy's an unhinged Cowboys fan who's still on death row. This is the craziest part. He's talking about how he's prioritizing draft picks. He's playing the long game. And he knows it. That's what sports does to us. That's what it's doing to him. It's giving him hope. It's taking it away.

• 59:58Speaker 04

  It's making him feel connected to everybody out here. And that's what I've been finding out, is that sports is the perfect way to do a bunch of stuff that I thought I would have to do if I went to law school.

• 1:00:09Fred Taylor?

  Man, I was just joking. I'm glad you were able to mention that. No, I seriously am. If you can take a step back and watch a movie that is your life, and in that, what would you consider your biggest pivot in life?

• 1:00:25Speaker 04

  There are a couple of moments that come to mind, but genuinely, I think it's trusting. It's trusting a guy that apparently could have quite easily been assassinated by a friend of Channing Crowder's.

• 1:00:41Speaker 04

  I'm putting my chips behind leaving ESPN and starting something new. Dan Lebatard is going to back me. We're going to figure this all out. And that was, you guys know this, you guys live it. It's so scary to start something from scratch.

• 1:00:56Speaker 04

  Because everyone's going to know why this didn't work. Or at the very least, they're going to assume that the reason it didn't work was your ass.

• 1:01:09Speaker 04

  And so the fact that I can sit here with you guys, three years into something that still feels like a toddler, but is learning how to walk and make a real impact is, it's a pivot that I'm so glad I made, even if none of it made sense at the time.

• 1:01:28Ryan Clark?

  That's dope. I will say this, man. I would, I need to give you some time to probably break some other organizations and do what you do, but I would love to have a part two of this, man. Because there's so much more I'm fascinated in about your story. There's a reinvention here that we didn't even get to from what ESPN was boxing you in to be and to what you became. Like, it truly is inspiring, man. I appreciate your time, brother. I appreciate the storytelling and I look forward to seeing you do more.

• 1:02:00Speaker 04

  Hey, man, all I hope for, you mentioned the movie, Fred, I just hope that they cast a very handsome white person to play me.

• 1:02:09Ryan Clark?

  It will be.

• 1:02:10Speaker 04

  I know how this country works.

• 1:02:12Ryan Clark?

  It will be. Man, appreciate you, brother. Hey, no questions. That was so good. That was dope, brother.