The Lindsay Clancy Case, Understanding Postpartum Psychosis

The Lindsay Clancy case has captured the nation’s attention, causing heated debate in the national conversation. On January 24, 2023 Lindsay Clancy strangled her three children in her basement and then attempted suicide by jumping from a second-story window in her house. The resulting injuries left her paralyzed from the waist down. After 21 days of testimony from more than 80 witnesses, the jury was not able to reach a unanimous decision. Lindsay Clancy’s defense team has argued that she is not guilty by reason of insanity as she was experiencing postpartum psychosis, while the prosecution argued she committed premeditated first degree murder. Oprah is in Massachusetts for a wide-ranging conversation about the case with an audience including an exclusive interview with Meg Hamp, a nurse who worked alongside Lindsay for 7 years and testified at her trial - plus medical experts, legal scholars and women who have personally experienced postpartum psychosis. Their stories give us a rare, first-hand insight into what it is to experience this challenging mental health issue. Oprah will also talk with social critics who will share their opinions and she will hear speculation on many sides of the case. Oprah has hosted conversations on postpartum depression and psychosis for 40 years with the intention of providing a platform for a mature discussion. This podcast episode contains discussions of murder, suicide, and mental illness that may be upsetting to some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  We heard from moms all over the country who've lived through postpartum psychosis. You thought hearing voices that were telling you to kill yourself and your children.

• 0:10Speaker 01

  I had my son in the baby bath, and he began to cry in the bath. And I heard as if a man had walked up behind me and whispered in my right ear, "It will stop if you hold him under the water."

• 0:20Speaker 02

  I started to hear what I called the voice of God.

• 0:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you say your daughter was the second coming of Jesus?

• 0:24Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 0:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Meg Hamp is a labor and delivery nurse who worked with Lindsay Clancy for seven years. She testified on behalf of the defense. How would you describe Lindsay as a nurse, as a friend, as a mother? What was your first reaction when you heard that Lindsay Clancy had murdered her children?

• 0:49Speaker 03

  The breaking headline outside Boston tonight.

• 0:51Speaker 04

  It's a case that's captivating the country.

• 0:53Speaker 05

  This is a case that has so divided people.

• 0:56Speaker 06

  I'm going to declare that the jury is deadlocked, and I'm going to declare mistrial.

• 1:01Oprah Winfrey?

  The 36-year-old mother, wife, and nurse Lindsay Clancy was charged with first-degree murder for strangling her three children to death, her daughter Cora, and two sons, Dawson and Callan. After 21 days of testimony from more than 80 witnesses, the jury was not able to reach a unanimous decision. The prosecution has not yet announced if they will try the case again.

• 1:29Speaker 07

  Cora was into princesses.

• 1:32Speaker 04

  And Dawson.

• 1:36Speaker 07

  Using firefighters and trucks.

• 1:40Speaker 04

  And Callan, the story.

• 1:43Speaker 07

  He was just a happy baby.

• 1:45Oprah Winfrey?

  The defense argued Lindsay Clancy was suffering from postpartum psychosis, and that despite repeated requests for help, Lindsay was over-medicated by doctors and was not provided proper psychiatric care.

• 1:57Speaker 05

  She was a darn good mother. Her mind was gone.

• 2:07Oprah Winfrey?

  The prosecution alleged that Lindsay Clancy planned the murders and may have faked a suicide attempt that left her paralyzed from the waist down.

• 2:16Speaker 02

  She left them discarded on the basement floor like broken toys because she was done playing the game.

• 2:25Oprah Winfrey?

  The trial has divided our nation. Everybody failed that woman. I wholeheartedly think she did not do it.

• 2:33Speaker 04

  I don't care what any of you say. Lindsay Clancy is guilty. When I had postpartum psychosis, I had some of the scariest, darkest thoughts to the point where I knew I could not physically hold my baby. I had to give him to my husband. This is a topic that needs to go further than just this trial.

• 2:54Oprah Winfrey?

  I agree with that. That's why we're here. So, thank you for joining me here on the Oprah Podcast, along with millions of other Americans and people all over the world. I, too, have been following the Lindsay Clancy case. And the loss of three innocent and defenseless little children who did not deserve to die that way is just too horrific to really comprehend. And no matter what the lawyers argue and the possible future jury decides, how can we begin to reconcile the senseless deaths of three precious children at the hands of their mother? This case is another flashpoint in America

• 3:37Oprah Winfrey?

  that has created yet another divide. And as we watch the country buckle under the weight of such an unfathomable act with all of the opinions and the speculations and the conspiracy theories, and, yes, a lot, a lot of vitriol on all sides. The question I want to ask is how did we get here? And how can we best use this moment, this watershed moment, to honor the lives of Cora,

• 4:15Oprah Winfrey?

  five years old,

• 4:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Dawson,

• 4:20Oprah Winfrey?

  three years old,

• 4:23Oprah Winfrey?

  and Callan,

• 4:25Oprah Winfrey?

  who only lived eight months here on the planet Earth?

• 4:31Oprah Winfrey?

  How can we do that and protect families and women, and especially children? So, let's just have a moment of silence to think about Cora, Dawson, and Callan.

• 4:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Cora,

• 4:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Dawson,

• 5:00Oprah Winfrey?

  and Callan.

• 5:03Oprah Winfrey?

  We come to Boston to have this conversation, and we're about 30 miles from Duxbury, Massachusetts, where, on January 24, 2023, Cora, Dawson, and Callan were killed. And I have to say, we're not here to retry Lindsay Clancy's case or debate the minute details or online theories. I've been talking to mothers who suffered from postpartum mental health issues now for decades. And way back when, when we first started having these conversations on The Oprah Winfrey Show as early as 1986, there was not even a language for it. Nobody called it anything

• 5:47Oprah Winfrey?

  except "these women are monsters" or "these women are evil." And over the years, I've interviewed many, many, many mothers who have killed their children. And we can all see that the deaths of Cora, Dawson, and Callan have caused this national conversation to shift and erupt like never before. So, that's why I wanted to bring together doctors and psychiatrists and legal scholars and journalists and parents here today to Boston to unpack what has been blowing up on social media, on your family text chains, at work, and in the school parking lot. And my intention here today is to ask this question.

• 6:30Oprah Winfrey?

  How can we, as a culture, as a society, do better? How do we use this moment to move ourselves forward and not just all of our opinions and yakking about it? For something this big, can you feel it? Something this big in the culture means the culture is supposed to shift. It feels to me like, you know, many other movements that I've witnessed, been old enough to witness, you know, when there was a time when people just drove drunk and they killed people and nobody said anything. And then what was created? The Mothers Against Drunk Drivers. And that movement really changed the way we looked at alcohol and the consumption of alcohol and alcoholism in this country.

• 7:15Oprah Winfrey?

  It changed the laws for driving. It saved so many lives. So, today, we want to use this seminal moment to move forward. And I want to start by introducing Meg Hamp. She is a labor and delivery nurse who worked with Lindsay Clancy for seven years. And you may recognize Meg because she testified on behalf of the defense. And here's a short part of it.

• 7:40Speaker 05

  Were you aware of any incidents where Lindsay was with you? And a woman did, in fact, express concern that she wanted to hurt herself or her child?

• 7:50Speaker 04

  There was a particular patient that Lindsay was on staff. When this patient arrived, it was a patient that arrived to the unit that had plans to harm herself while she was pregnant. And we had a conversation. Lindsay was brand new. It was the summer that she had just started. And we had a conversation about mental health in pregnancy and postpartum. And I asked her if she had ever heard of the Andrea Yates case, and she hadn't. And I explained that to her, and she cried. And she said, "How could a mother hurt her children?"

• 8:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi, Meg.

• 8:37Speaker 04

  Hi.

• 8:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. This is Meg's first time that you're speaking, you know, outside of the trial. So, thank you for being here with us today.

• 8:45Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 8:46Oprah Winfrey?

  How would you describe Lindsay as a nurse, as a friend, as a mother?

• 8:52Speaker 04

  Lindsay loved being a nurse. She was a light on our unit. She brought warmth and compassion to the room. She brought emotion to the rooms that we were in.

• 9:05Speaker 04

  I loved working with her. I think our team loved working with her. She just, she brought a peace to our team that nobody else has been able to bring. I often remember looking up after a baby was born, and Lindsay was my second. And the delivery and just looking over the mother and Lindsay with tears in her eyes because birth was just so emotional for her and she felt that for so many other women, not just her friends or her family.

• 9:34Oprah Winfrey?

  And so several medical experts testified that they believe that she suffered from bipolar disorder. Did you ever see any signs of that?

• 9:44Speaker 04

  No.

• 9:45Oprah Winfrey?

  And you testified that you'd once brought up to her, that you just said there, the case of Andrea Yates. How did that conversation come about?

• 9:53Speaker 04

  We had a patient on the unit that was suffering from some mental health challenges. And there was just a lot of question around that, Lindsay being a new nurse. And there was another new nurse on the floor at the time. And I had asked, I just asked her if she had ever heard of the Andrea Yates case. And she hadn't. Seems like such a big case in the maternal health world. But Lindsay was at that age where she probably hadn't kind of lived through that. I'm a little bit older than Lindsay. So that story was surprising.

• 10:27Oprah Winfrey?

  I remember interviewing Andrea Yates' husband and doing a whole series of shows around Andrea Yates, yes. And what I was saying earlier, at the time of Andrea Yates, everyone just, you know, first of all, we didn't have social media then, but a number of people just felt, because obviously, the first time she was convicted of murder. And a lot of people just thought that there was this evil woman who killed her kids and nobody understood it. So now we're 25 years later.

• 10:55Speaker 04

  Right. And people still don't understand it.

• 10:59Oprah Winfrey?

  And people still don't understand it. What was your first reaction when you, as her friend and as her comrade in working, realized or had heard that she'd murdered her children, that Lindsay Clancy had murdered her children?

• 11:18Speaker 04

  First, I didn't believe it. Lindsay.

• 11:22Oprah Winfrey?

  How did you hear?

• 11:25Speaker 04

  I had a phone call from a colleague. We weren't 100% sure what had happened, but the address was hitting the news. And I knew her address, so I knew that something had happened. And then coworkers were chatting. And that's how we learned what happened.

• 11:46Oprah Winfrey?

  So you heard it and you didn't believe it?

• 11:49Speaker 04

  Didn't believe it.

• 11:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you knew her?

• 11:52Speaker 04

  She loved her children. She lived for her children. She did everything for them. She wanted all the parenting tips. It wasn't possible in my mind that this was a person who could murder her three children.

• 12:10Oprah Winfrey?

  So what was your reaction when you heard that there was a mistrial?

• 12:14Speaker 04

  I was devastated for her, that she potentially has to go through this again.

• 12:19Oprah Winfrey?

  And what do you want to say to people, and there are lots of them, who believe that Lindsay Clancy is just evil?

• 12:26Speaker 04

  I think mental health can affect anyone. It can affect the person who goes to their dream college, meets the man of their dreams, decides to have a family, buys a house, buys another house as their family grows. And it doesn't matter where you are in life, or how many boxes on your life's bucket list you're checking off as you go. It can impact anyone regardless of where you are in your life. And this has been very eye opening, that someone like Lindsay, who was checking off those boxes of her life's bucket list, that this could happen to her.

• 13:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Meg.

• 13:14Speaker 04

  Thank you.

• 13:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. So we heard from moms all over the country and have, who've lived through postpartum psychosis, two are joining us. Brooke, you say that Lindsay's story actually hits so close to home for you. How so? Will you share your story with us?

• 13:33Speaker 01

  When Lindsay's story came across my social media screen, I literally said, this is an alternate reality. This is my personal life, it's an alternate reality. And up until Lindsay's case went public, I hadn't even told my own husband some of the darkest thoughts I'd had when I was going through postpartum psychosis. My postpartum psychosis started when my son was 10 days old. And I remember the first hallucination, and I was convinced there was a man outside our house with a gun just there to murder me.

• 14:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Could you see him?

• 14:13Speaker 01

  I could see his shadow through our blinds.

• 14:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Did you tell your husband at the time?

• 14:19Speaker 01

  I looked at my husband, who was, I was standing, holding our baby, rocking him to sleep. And he was in the bed, standing next to our bed. And I looked at him, and I looked back at the window, and I was like, I still see the man. And I looked at him, and he wasn't reacting. And I thought, if he's not reacting, is he there? And I turned my back to the window, and I just kept, I just breathed in my baby, and I was like, I don't know if this is happening. And that was the first time.

• 14:53Oprah Winfrey?

  But did you mention it?

• 14:56Speaker 01

  No.

• 14:57Oprah Winfrey?

  You did not mention it?

• 14:58Speaker 01

  I did not mention it at that point. I continued to have hallucinations, and around six weeks postpartum, I became extremely suicidal. And I still didn't mention it.

• 15:14Oprah Winfrey?

  You were having suicidal thoughts?

• 15:16Speaker 01

  Yes. I was having suicideations, intrusive thoughts about suicide that would come out of nowhere, and it would just be a movie playing in my mind.

• 15:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so one of the things the prosecution stressed throughout this is how normal Lindsay Clancy seemed during other parts of the day. So did you feel, feel normal during other parts of the day?

• 15:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 15:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Felt normal, or were you just pretending to be normal?

• 15:46Speaker 01

  So postpartum psychosis waxes and wanes, and I wish I had understood that because I was actually gaslighting myself.

• 15:53Oprah Winfrey?

  You were gaslighting yourself?

• 15:55Speaker 01

  When I was normal.

• 15:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 15:57Speaker 01

  That what I was going through maybe wasn't that bad, that maybe I actually didn't see that. And maybe it was like a dream.

• 16:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Can you tell us why in that moment you wouldn't say to your husband, did you see somebody out by the window?

• 16:14Speaker 01

  I was, I don't know why I didn't in that moment. And I continue to not. I had experienced postpartum depression and anxiety with my previous children.

• 16:24Oprah Winfrey?

  So with the other three children, it took the form of what? Because we want, we're going to be talking to doctors later to distinguish, there is a distinct difference between depression and psychosis. So you'd been depressed before.

• 16:36Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 16:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Meaning what? You felt down?

• 16:39Speaker 01

  I felt.

• 16:40Oprah Winfrey?

  You know, back in the old days, people didn't have a name for it, they just called it the baby blues.

• 16:43Speaker 01

  Right, which is a separate thing.

• 16:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:46Speaker 01

  And I, postpartum depression for me manifests with a heavy depression, a darkness, like just a weight, a cloud. It's kind of like, it's hard to get out of bed, but I still want to take care of my kids. I just, I'm unmotivated to. I want to take care of myself, but I don't find the motivation to do it. I have to make myself do it.

• 17:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. So you'd felt that before?

• 17:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 17:14Oprah Winfrey?

  This was different?

• 17:15Speaker 01

  This was different, and this came on sudden.

• 17:18Oprah Winfrey?

  So, okay, the 10 days, you see the man, and then what happened?

• 17:23Speaker 01

  My hallucinations and intrusive thoughts continued to build and get worse. And when my son was three months old was the first time I heard someone talking to me that wasn't there.

• 17:39Oprah Winfrey?

  Can you explain to us what that feels like?

• 17:42Speaker 01

  I had my son in the baby bath on the counter in our bathroom, and he began to cry in the bath. I don't remember why at this point. And I heard as if a man, it was a man's voice for me, as if a man had walked up behind me and whispered in my right ear, "It will stop if you hold him under the water." My son had just barely began to cry. And I stopped, and I heard it again, "Just push him under the water." I grabbed his towel, and I picked him up, and I ran out of the room crying.

• 18:26Speaker 01

  And I did not give my son another bath.

• 18:30Oprah Winfrey?

  So at this point, did you tell Trevor?

• 18:33Speaker 01

  No.

• 18:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Why?

• 18:35Speaker 01

  I was so scared. I was scared my kids would be taken from me. I was scared of what would he think?

• 18:44Oprah Winfrey?

  What would he think?

• 18:45Speaker 01

  Yeah, what would he think of me?

• 18:46Oprah Winfrey?

  So when the voice, because you're here to help us understand.

• 18:49Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 18:49Oprah Winfrey?

  When the voice says, if you just hold him under the water, it'll go, it'll go away.

• 18:55Speaker 01

  The crying stops.

• 18:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, it stops.

• 18:56Speaker 01

  Like, that's the solution.

• 18:57Oprah Winfrey?

  It stops. Okay. Does that voice then disappear and then you go on and you make lunch?

• 19:03Speaker 01

  Yeah, literally. I ran to the family room with him. I didn't even drain the water.

• 19:10Oprah Winfrey?

  That's what you mean by wax and wane?

• 19:11Speaker 01

  Yeah. I sobbed, sitting on the couch with him and dressed him. I dried the soap off of him.

• 19:19Oprah Winfrey?

  The voice comes in and then it leaves, it's gone.

• 19:21Speaker 01

  It was gone.

• 19:22Oprah Winfrey?

  And now you're normal again.

• 19:23Speaker 01

  And I was all like confused by it. And I went and I dressed him and I helped the toddlers with the sippy cups and changed their diapers. I had multiple kids in diapers. I have four children under five. And got them a snack. And we went in the yard. And I pulled out my phone and I Googled. I searched the hallucination, like seeing a man who's not there, hearing voices that aren't there.

• 19:55Oprah Winfrey?

  You Googled?

• 19:56Speaker 01

  I did Google.

• 19:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 19:57Speaker 01

  And postpartum psychosis popped up. And I opened the Wikipedia page on it. I'm pretty sure it was Wikipedia. And I read the first few lines. And I thought, oh, my gosh, I think I have this. Now, this is where I should have sent the link or something to my husband or called him and said, I think I have this.

• 20:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Because how much time is gone on now?

• 20:17Speaker 01

  He's about three months old.

• 20:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 20:21Speaker 01

  And I did not get help.

• 20:24Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. How often did you hear voices before you got help?

• 20:28Speaker 01

  My story goes on for 18 months, undiagnosed. I...

• 20:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 20:35Speaker 01

  After I realized I was fighting a real mental illness, I doubled down like it was my mission to protect my family from it, including my husband.

• 20:48Speaker 01

  And I built up every wall. And I faked it like my life depended on it because it did.

• 20:55Oprah Winfrey?

  What was happening, Trevor? I can see that this is hard for you to even hear now, this many years later, because your youngest son is now...

• 21:04Speaker 01

  Nine.

• 21:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Nine. So nine years later, all of this comes out because of the Lindsay Clancy trial. You feel that you're looking at yourself, that it's a mirror of your life. And when you look back at that time, what do you say to yourself about what was going on? Did you notice a difference?

• 21:29Speaker 06

  There were things I did notice. But I didn't understand it. Like, when she did tell me about the man with the gun, I was like, that doesn't make any sense. Why would you think that? And so I would say I was really uneducated in it to catch what was going on. But yeah, I don't like to look back. We have family photos.

• 21:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 21:58Speaker 06

  Maybe you tell that.

• 21:59Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 22:01Speaker 01

  When our son was about four months old, I was in a really dark place with fighting it. And I knew I couldn't keep going. So I planned family photos as the final gift. I wasn't even gonna wait for the photos to come back when we got back from taking him.

• 22:18Oprah Winfrey?

  You planned to kill yourself?

• 22:19Speaker 01

  That night, yeah.

• 22:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 22:21Speaker 01

  Because it was my only way of protecting my family from myself.

• 22:25Oprah Winfrey?

  So you thought if you killed yourself, you would do no harm to your children?

• 22:28Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you were still having the intrusive thoughts about harming your children? Harming your children? Just one child or all the children?

• 22:34Speaker 01

  I actually only had intrusive thoughts at this point about harming my baby.

• 22:39Oprah Winfrey?

  So when did you get help?

• 22:41Speaker 01

  Well, I thought maybe it would end on its own.

• 22:46Speaker 01

  Nowhere at that point, 10 years ago, did it ever say it was an emergency online.

• 22:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 22:52Speaker 01

  I didn't say it was an emergency. And so I thought, maybe it will get better on its own.

• 22:58Oprah Winfrey?

  You thought hearing voices that were telling you to kill yourself and your children?

• 23:02Speaker 01

  It's not logical.

• 23:03Oprah Winfrey?

  It's not logical, of course not.

• 23:04Speaker 01

  I understand that.

• 23:07Speaker 01

  I understand it's not logical to be suicidal and want to die and be terrified you're gonna be murdered.

• 23:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 23:15Speaker 01

  I understand those things don't add up to a normal mind. And that should be

• 23:22Speaker 01

  a sign to yourself. Something's not right.

• 23:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:26Speaker 01

  You're not in your right mind.

• 23:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:29Speaker 01

  But I thought, if I can just fake it harder,

• 23:34Speaker 01

  maybe I can survive it.

• 23:36Oprah Winfrey?

  So here's the question. When you're hearing a voice that says, if you just hold him underwater, or when these voices show up, can you distinguish that this is not normal? Were you able to distinguish this is not normal? Or did that feel like it was real?

• 23:55Speaker 01

  It felt extremely real.

• 23:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 23:58Speaker 01

  It felt as real as my husband were to lean over and whisper in my ear right now. It was as real as someone walking up behind me and talking onto one side of my head.

• 24:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. But it's a voice you don't know. So it's not like it's your voice telling you to do it. It's another voice.

• 24:16Speaker 01

  Right.

• 24:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 24:17Speaker 01

  It was for me, yeah.

• 24:19Oprah Winfrey?

  For you. So you finally got help when?

• 24:22Speaker 01

  I wrote my husband a letter when I was about 16 months postpartum. It was three pages, I believe, front and back. And I laid it all out for him in it. Like, I am not okay. I need help. I am hallucinating. I am extremely suicidal. And that night, when we were in separate bedrooms, tucking our kids in, we'd tuck our kids in and we'd switch rooms, I texted him and I said, I need to talk tonight. And he responded, okay. Like, I couldn't even tell him the person. I was so scared, I was so nauseous. And we go to the bedroom and I shut the door. I walk to my bedside table and I take out this letter that's folded and I throw it at him. And I collapsed on the bed, sobbing.

• 25:06Speaker 01

  Just all the energy I'd put into faking it all those months, just... The walls came crumbling down. And I just sobbed, harder than I've ever cried in my life. And he opened the letter and started reading it. And as he turned the first page, he reached out and he was crying. And he said, it's gonna be okay, Brooke. I'm gonna protect you, I'm gonna get you help.

• 25:29Speaker 01

  And not being alone. Yeah.

• 25:34Oprah Winfrey?

  And you were hospitalized for how long?

• 25:37Speaker 01

  I was not hospitalized for two more months. My husband worked from home at that point. And at that point, he babysat me. I was rarely left alone. Like, it wasn't just we were on the same floor in the house. We were in the same room. If he had to work in the office, I was in the office. If the kids needed something, he got up and helped.

• 26:01Speaker 01

  If he removed everything from the house that I was allergic to, anything I could use to harm myself, he asked me very specific questions to protect me.

• 26:10Oprah Winfrey?

  So you were trying to fix it yourself?

• 26:12Speaker 01

  No.

• 26:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Or were you at this point seeing somebody? When you realized that she needed help and you say, I'm gonna help you, how did you do that?

• 26:21Speaker 06

  So we did, we took the precautions in the house and her not being left alone. But then it was, we eventually got an amazing team. So our midwife was amazing in finding us a good doctor. We had a doctor, we had our therapist who and this team rallied around. But what was really, really frustrating is when you have someone reach out to you and you're trying to help them. Like, a lot of people, they say, if I only knew. If I only knew, I would have done something. This was my if I only knew moment. And so we're in this crisis state and we're calling and calling and calling and trying to get help. For three weeks, we couldn't get in to see a psychologist.

• 27:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Trying to get help, literally even voicemail after voicemail after voicemail. And no one cared to help.

• 27:09Speaker 01

  And at this point, it was the doctor that called us back was a referral from our midwife. And he called us back, leaving his office for Christmas break.

• 27:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 27:20Speaker 01

  He said, I got your voicemail. And it was so important, I'm calling you from my truck. Like, I need to get you help today.

• 27:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, well, that is great. That is great to hear. And I think, thank you for sharing your story. Very brave of you to share your story, especially in a climate where everybody wants to have their own opinions about what somebody else's life and story is. Were you wary about coming forward and sharing your story?

• 27:51Speaker 01

  I was, I have been sharing my story for seven years on Deaf Ears. So I was very grateful for you shining the light on this platform. And I think this is the first time I have publicly shared that I wanted to harm my son.

• 28:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Because now people are going to see you on the street. And it takes a lot of courage to be able to say that.

• 28:14Speaker 01

  Thank you.

• 28:17Oprah Winfrey?

  Takes a lot of courage.

• 28:18Speaker 01

  I mean, right before I was hospitalized, what actually made me become hospitalized is the night before, I was up all night. And I was sitting in one of my son's empty bedrooms because they'd woken up and come to my room. And I was looking around, I was seeing their toys and their toys had all just turned to weapons for me. And I saw this movie play out, intrusive thought in my mind of strangling my son and me jumping out the second story window. And when I saw that play out in real life.

• 28:46Oprah Winfrey?

  With Lindsay Clancy.

• 28:47Speaker 01

  With Lindsay Clancy. I looked at my husband, I said, this is a lady who had the exact same intrusive thoughts as me. And the reason my story ended differently was because who my husband is. That's the only difference.

• 29:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Trevor.

• 29:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Ayanna and her husband Wagner went through a similar experience. What happened to you, Ayanna?

• 29:11Speaker 02

  So I knew about postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety. And I knew just from like having friends who'd walked through it, that I might not feel like myself after birth. But after I gave birth, I felt euphoric. I felt like I didn't need to sleep anymore. My C-section incision didn't hurt. I felt angry that people had told me to prepare for postpartum because I felt like it was the easiest thing that I'd ever been through. This lasted very, very shortly. About five days postpartum, I started to experience really violent mood swings where I was going up and down.

• 29:42Oprah Winfrey?

  So at first you were just manic and not sleeping and thinking, you don't need to sleep?

• 29:47Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 29:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And then?

• 29:48Speaker 02

  Yeah. I started to experience mood swings. My husband noticed that something was off. My parents noticed that something was off. I just wasn't, I was very irritable. I just wasn't acting like myself. But I'd never been postpartum before. Even I could feel like this isn't what I expected it to be, but maybe it's just hormones. I became very paranoid, very suddenly, that my husband wasn't safe for my baby, that my mom wasn't safe for my baby, that only I could protect my baby, feed her, change her, all of that. And at this point, this was eight days, seven or eight days postpartum, my husband called my psychiatrist and told her, hey, I think something's really wrong. And she told him, if she doesn't improve, she might need to be hospitalized. You know, I'm preparing you for the possibility.

• 30:32Speaker 02

  This was the summer of 2020, so this is kind of the peak of the pandemic. My baby was born early, so I was very worried about her health. So it just, well, not ideal for me to be in a hospital, but my psychiatrist was kind of adamant that it might need to happen if the paranoia built.

• 30:49Oprah Winfrey?

  And then you started hearing voices.

• 30:51Speaker 02

  Yeah. So then I started to hear what I called the voice of God. I told my husband that I was going to be a famous author, that my daughter was the second coming of Jesus.

• 31:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you say your daughter was the second coming of Jesus?

• 31:03Speaker 02

  Oh, yeah.

• 31:03Oprah Winfrey?

  That's what the voice told you?

• 31:05Speaker 02

  Yes, yes. So I'm hearing all of these things, that I'm a special prophet. And all the things that I was hearing were almost like.

• 31:10Oprah Winfrey?

  So what Brooke described, is it, was it a man's voice?

• 31:14Speaker 02

  It was, it's so hard for me to explain it. It felt kind of like when I used to pray and want God to speak to me, what I'd always wanted to hear.

• 31:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 31:23Speaker 02

  So it almost felt like it was coming from within me.

• 31:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 31:27Speaker 02

  But yeah.

• 31:27Oprah Winfrey?

  And it told you, you were a prophet, a special prophet, and your child was the second coming of Jesus?

• 31:32Speaker 02

  Yes.

• 31:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. And you believed that?

• 31:35Speaker 02

  Oh, I was ecstatic. I was over the moon. I was upset that he did not seem as excited as I was when I woke him up to tell him this. Obviously, he's thinking, what is going on? But.

• 31:45Oprah Winfrey?

  What did you think when she told you that, Wagner?

• 31:48Speaker 07

  Well, I think the hard part about all this was it, when you're in that postpartum period, you don't really know what to expect, especially with your first child. It's like all of, you know, the mood swings or what have you. Like, she was maybe talking a little bit faster, talking a little bit more, all this stuff. And so like, it feels unusual, but it doesn't necessarily feel like maybe this is not something that I shouldn't expect.

• 32:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Didn't feel dangerous.

• 32:13Speaker 07

  Right.

• 32:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And that's why we're having this podcast, because we're going to talk to a doctor later who says, those are all the pink flags before you get to the red flag. So all of you, you, Trevor, were seeing the pink flags. You were seeing the pink flags. You all were experiencing the pink flags, but didn't know it was a pink flag. So you were, you know something's off. And that's what the pink flag is, knowing something is off, right?

• 32:40Speaker 07

  Yeah, exactly. And so when the delusions started coming out, like, you know, I think she was talking about rewriting the Bible and just, just these things of like hearing the voice of God and all these different things. That was when I knew, like, something is seriously wrong. And so I kind of took the approach of, I think, very similar to like, maybe what Trevor experienced, but maybe like on an accelerated timeline. Like, I was like, just kind of watching her nonstop. But it got to that point, like she mentioned, maybe seven, eight days in, where we just reached a breaking point, I had to call the psychiatrist.

• 33:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you at any point feel that you could harm your baby?

• 33:23Speaker 02

  I was very worried that other people were going to harm her. So I was ready to hurt or, you know, try to hurt anyone who even mentioned my baby. So my delusions and my mind frame was centered around her being so special because she was Jesus, that the world was going to try to kill her. So that's, I mean, but I feel lucky because you don't have control over how postpartum psychosis manifests, you know? So lucky. I mean, it's still not a great situation to be in, but I didn't have delusions about harming her, but I could have, you know? And I'm very aware that my story could have ended differently.

• 33:54Oprah Winfrey?

  What are your thoughts on the Lindsay Clancy case?

• 33:57Speaker 02

  I think, I think that it's important to hold space and mourn and acknowledge like this incredible loss of life, this unthinkable thing that happened, while also looking at a mother who, you know, we have documented evidence, tried to get help, raised the red flag that something wasn't right. So I think that, I think that it's really hard, especially to be online right now, because it's like, you know, there's no room for nuance at all, ever. But I, because I feel like, because I've been through postpartum psychosis and because I lost control over my thoughts and my actions, I have more empathy, I think, than maybe the average person was.

• 34:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you have to be hospitalized?

• 34:42Speaker 02

  I did, yes.

• 34:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, for how long?

• 34:43Speaker 02

  Seventeen days.

• 34:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Seventeen days. And after 17 days, you're given medication and you're better?

• 34:50Speaker 02

  Well, I wasn't delusional anymore. So I mean, yes, as far as the psychosis went, the symptoms stopped about, you know, 14 days into my hospitalization.

• 35:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  I struggled so much about being away from my daughter for that time because I wasn't allowed visitors, I wasn't allowed anything, you know, as far as seeing people.

• 35:08Oprah Winfrey?

  But after 17 days, you're better?

• 35:09Speaker 02

  Yeah, well, enough to go home, yeah.

• 35:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Well enough to go home. Well, to help us understand what postpartum psychosis is, we invited top experts in their fields to be here. Dr. Berndorf is a reproductive psychiatrist and the CEO, co-founder and medical director of the Motherhood Center in New York City, which treats pregnant and new moms. And we welcome you here to this conversation. So let's start with the basics. I think people are confused by the difference between postpartum depression and postpartum psychosis. What is the difference?

• 35:48Speaker 05

  Well, first, thank you for having this conversation on the national stage and for your stories. I really feel for you and know how hard it is to get help. The difference is, postpartum depression is what we know as depression. It's happening in the postpartum, it can happen during pregnancy. You're not interested in things you used to be, low mood. You may be exhausted, not motivated, not really wanting, you're barely pushing yourself out of bed to get things done, but you can look quite fine. And in the worst cases, you can feel suicidal, okay? Postpartum psychosis is completely different.

• 36:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Does, okay, so, so before you finish that answer, does postpartum depression lead to postpartum psychosis?

• 36:35Speaker 05

  It can.

• 36:36Oprah Winfrey?

  It can?

• 36:37Speaker 05

  It can. You can have psychotic thinking within a depression.

• 36:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Can you have psychotic, can you have postpartum psychosis without ever being depressed?

• 36:48Speaker 05

  You can. You will also have mood symptoms at some point, kind of like you described, Diana, right? That you start with the psychotic symptoms, and then, we haven't heard your whole story, kind of how things end up. But, postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency. It is a break with reality that requires, almost invariably, hospitalization.

• 37:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. I think that's really important for everybody who's ticking and talking to get the word out that it is a medical emergency.

• 37:24Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 37:24Oprah Winfrey?

  And when you Googled nine years ago, it, it, it didn't note that, is what you're saying?

• 37:31Speaker 01

  Yeah, it did not. Had it noted that, I think that would have changed how my story went. I don't think I would have been another year before I got help.

• 37:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, okay, so, and how do you know whether it, you are in psychosis or whether it's just depression?

• 37:51Speaker 05

  Well, as described, psychosis can be paranoia, hearing things, seeing things that aren't there, but you believe them. There's a delusional quality to it, right? A fixed, false belief that what you are seeing or hearing is absolutely true. It wouldn't have mattered if you asked your husband if he saw it, and I love how you said that, you were gaslighting yourself. I mean, so well said, and it's really true that you so unshakably believe what you are seeing, hearing, and feeling is true. Nobody else may, and that's why people don't share. You seemed somewhat incredulous as you were hearing she didn't tell her husband. That's not uncommon.

• 38:35Speaker 05

  People feel crazy, they don't want to be labeled that way, they don't want their kids taken away should they tell a medical professional, right? We have the responsibility to, you know, call Child Protective Services if we think there's harm that could come to a baby.

• 38:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Not think, but, you know, I always wondered, i- if someone tells you that I'm thinking of harming my children, you should believe that?

• 39:00Speaker 05

  Hundred percent, one billion percent.

• 39:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, so if someone says, "I'm thinking of harming my children," and they're willing to admit that they're thinking of harming their children, shouldn't their children be taken away?

• 39:10Speaker 05

  I wouldn't say that. I would say it is, there you've got your emergency right in front of you, you need to get to the hospital, you do need separation, I mean, Trevor, you did all the right things, I'm just sorry you had to make a home hospital.

• 39:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 39:24Speaker 05

  Right? You did the things we say. It is protocol to say, "Don't be alone with a baby, don't be alone yourself."

• 39:30Oprah Winfrey?

  So you should be immediately separated from your children?

• 39:33Speaker 05

  Correct, correct, but not taken away. I don't want to scare anyone with that.

• 39:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 39:37Speaker 05

  Right? You need treatment, and you often need hospitalization for your safety and for your baby's safety.

• 39:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, you need treatment.

• 39:47Speaker 05

  Treatment and hospitalization.

• 39:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, and so, you're, we, we talked about the pink flags.

• 39:53Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 39:53Oprah Winfrey?

  So, the pink flags are?

• 39:56Speaker 05

  Yeah, well, this is red.

• 39:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 39:58Speaker 05

  This is...

• 39:59Oprah Winfrey?

  By the time you're in psychosis, you're in red.

• 40:01Speaker 05

  You're in red, right? When people are acting out of character, when they start to not be behaving like themselves.

• 40:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 40:08Speaker 05

  When they're a little off and you're thinking to yourself, huh, that doesn't seem right, that, those are pink flags, and I know we're gonna hear more about that, but you are discussing a red flag. When someone can say, "I am worried I am gonna hurt my child," or "I could," do not pass go directly to the emergency room. Or if you hear paranoia, I had a patient once, I heard on the phone, seven days after she delivered, I'd seen her in the hospital doing great, her husband called me, I could hear in the background, she was in the background, and she said, "Who is that woman you are on the phone with? You're having an affair with her." And I said, "We have an emergency on our hands. You need to, can I meet you at the hospital? Can you get in a taxi?

• 40:53Speaker 05

  Do you want me to call an ambulance? Where are you?" That was it. She was done. She was going to be hospitalized for that emergency, postpartum psychosis.

• 41:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, I want to show you this, Lindsay Clancy's attorney, Kevin Redington, gave an interview this week on Good Morning America. Take a quick look at what he said.

• 41:13Speaker 06

  A lot of the interlay between the medications, between the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors, the SSRI drugs, in combination with that, it's horrific what, what these people are dealing with.

• 41:26Oprah Winfrey?

  And what do you say to those critics who say, "This is a rationalization? What we're talking about here is just plain evil."

• 41:32Speaker 06

  Oh, please, it's not evil. These people don't understand, they, they, they don't know what she went through, they didn't see her text messages, they didn't see her journal, they didn't see the notes that she wrote, they didn't see the text she sent to her mother in October, saying, "Mommy, can you please come to here? I, I, I am sick, something's wrong," and it was a result of the medications. They don't know about the number of times that she reached out, she went to the woman and infant, she went to the suicide hotlines, she reached out to everybody and anybody that would listen to her and kept saying, "I am not good, I am not well," and it was ignored.

• 42:05Oprah Winfrey?

  So, Dr. Berendoff, what about SSRI medication for depression?

• 42:11Speaker 05

  They're wonderful medications.

• 42:12Oprah Winfrey?

  So tell us what that is.

• 42:13Speaker 05

  Okay, selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. Those are medications like Prozac, or Zoloft, or Lexapro, right? They're the most, very commonly used.

• 42:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, for postpartum depression.

• 42:26Speaker 05

  Sure.

• 42:26Oprah Winfrey?

  What kind of impact do the SSRI drugs then have on psychosis? So you're in depression, you're taking the SSRI drugs, and what happens?

• 42:36Speaker 05

  So these medications, in a certain population that is predisposed biologically, if they are given this medication, can flip into mania. It is a known side effect slash something that can happen. If someone is not responding to a medication like this, they have kind of an agitated, sometimes euphoric experience, or dysphoric, where they don't feel good, you think to yourself, huh, that's not working, what's going on? They're having an unusual reaction to this.

• 43:08Oprah Winfrey?

  But isn't it the case that, I, I've known several people who've suffered from mania, and the, the case with mania is, you're feeling so good, you're feeling so high, you're cleaning, you can stay up all night, you can party, you can do all those things, you don't know you're manic.

• 43:25Speaker 05

  No, you lose insight.

• 43:26Oprah Winfrey?

  I've never talked to a manic person who realized they were manic.

• 43:29Speaker 05

  Many people really enjoy this state.

• 43:31Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 43:31Speaker 05

  Right? It can also be quite irritable, or it can be euphoric.

• 43:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 43:35Speaker 05

  But you have no insight. You don't know what's happening, and this medication can trip people into, what it does is it exposes a previously unearthed bipolar disorder.

• 43:47Oprah Winfrey?

  And what happens if you are on an SSRI drug, and now you are also psychotic? The SSRI drugs impact psychosis, how?

• 44:00Speaker 05

  Well, when you're manic, you can also become psychotic. So if you think the medication is working, you might increase the dose. You may not recognize that it's not working, oh, it doesn't seem to be helping with the depression or the anxiety, I'm gonna increase the dose. The exact wrong thing to do. You actually need to bring in other medications and get someone off that medication that's stimulating, activating them into a state of bipolarity.

• 44:25Oprah Winfrey?

  So are you saying SSRI drugs stimulate or activate psychosis?

• 44:30Speaker 05

  They can.

• 44:31Oprah Winfrey?

  They can, okay. Dr. Camilla Phillips is an obstetrician and gynecologist, so what happens in the brains of, of moms with this, or do we call it a disorder, or is it a mental illness? What do we call it?

• 44:47Speaker 01

  Well, it's a spectrum, really, right? And I think the quick answer is, we don't know.

• 44:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 44:52Speaker 01

  And that's the problem. We don't have enough funding and research to really understand what goes on in the postpartum. What the data suggests, though, is that it is multifactorial. When you think about the significant drastic changes that the postpartum brain experiences, a decrease in progesterone, a decrease in estrogen, if you know anyone who's experienced puberty or menopause, you know that the human brain is hormonal.

• 45:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 45:22Speaker 01

  So there are profound shifts. We also have to consider things we don't think about, and that's what you mentioned, the serotonin, the dopamine, the norepinephrine. These are the signals that your brain sends to other parts of your brain that act with emotion and rationalization and understanding of your behavior. We know very little about that. There is data that shows that the postpartum brain, for someone who has depression versus psychosis, looks very different than the brain of a postpartum woman who doesn't. So there are some structural components there that are likely really important, and genetics, right?

• 46:03Speaker 01

  We have millions of women who deliver every year, only about 10 to 15% go on to have postpartum...

• 46:11Speaker 05

  Postpartum depression and even fewer psychosis. So there is probably a genetic component in the brain that when you combine new baby hormones, sleep deprivation, really tips them over and exposes their vulnerability to psychosis.

• 46:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I heard that the statistic for psychosis is about 8,000 women a year.

• 46:35Speaker 05

  One to two per thousand.

• 46:37Oprah Winfrey?

  But that's still a lot of women.

• 46:39Speaker 05

  Eight thousand a year, new moms. Significant.

• 46:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 46:42Speaker 05

  It's really significant. And when we see the repercussions of what that psychosis can lead to when it comes to children, parenting, family relationships, jobs, this is a medical emergency.

• 46:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, it was presented in court that the day Lindsay killed her children, she took her daughter to the pediatrician and she played in the snow with her kids. And she called CVS about a medication and ordered takeout for dinner. Everyone who interacted with her that day said that she appeared normal. And Dr. Hader is a perinatal psychiatrist. And I think people really struggle with this idea that they can't wrap their brains around, how can someone appear to be functioning so well, as these women have described, but then have those dark thoughts? I think that's what we don't understand.

• 47:40Speaker 04

  Yeah, it's a great question. Thank you for having me. So it's interesting, speaking very broadly about postpartum psychosis, it in fact, it's a spectrum. And someone with postpartum psychosis does not have to be continuously psychotic in order to have postpartum psychosis.

• 47:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, I think it's really important, Dr. Camilla, you just said that, and you just said that. I think it's important for everybody who's weighing in on this to understand many things in life are on the spectrum. And the fact that both of you have said it, and I've read it many to other places, that it's a spectrum. Not every, one woman's case is not like another woman's case is not like another woman's case. So we need to look at it in a more broad view.

• 48:22Speaker 04

  And I'm so glad you highlighted that, Oprah, because in fact, one can be experiencing postpartum psychosis and still be highly functional. She can be doing pickup, drop off, getting on through her day, making chocolate chip muffins with her toddler, and have organized, functional thoughts and behaviors at times and still fit within this spectrum.

• 48:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 48:46Speaker 04

  And, you know, having organized.

• 48:48Oprah Winfrey?

  And hear the voices and then go make lunch.

• 48:50Speaker 04

  Absolutely, or during lunch. Or maybe the voices are telling her not to tell anyone, right? Maybe that's why she hasn't spoken up. And there's also the component of shame and guilt. And thank you for sharing that. So I think it's really important to emphasize it is on a spectrum. And so when I had talked about the pink flags, I'm so glad that a lot of people are talking about it because I originally wrote it in my op ed in Time Magazine. And it took off. And I really wrote that from a strong point of education where I wanted to teach others that pink flag still is on the spectrum of postpartum psychosis. Pink flags is where lives can be saved. And I really refer to them as quieter signs and symptoms

• 49:32Speaker 04

  of postpartum psychosis that often go missed. And, you know, this is the illness that kind of happens in plain sight. So it's so critical to talk about the subtle signs and symptoms that develop, like you two had mentioned, you know, early onset paranoia, maybe some early onset hypomania, the mood is changing, especially in the context of disrupted sleep and sudden interrupted sleep after having a baby.

• 49:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, I read your article, and this is the thing. I read that, but I'm thinking, isn't every new mother having interrupted sleep?

• 50:06Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Or not getting enough sleep? So how can that be a sign when everybody is just, so many people, I won't say everybody, but a lot of women who don't have help and don't have support, and even those who do, the sleep deprivation is just like.

• 50:20Speaker 04

  Yeah.

• 50:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Top of the list. You want to?

• 50:22Speaker 05

  I was just gonna say, I don't think people realize how much insomnia and sleep deprivation plays into this. Sleep is actually a human right, and we forget that. And when you're sleep deprived, that is a form of torture.

• 50:36Oprah Winfrey?

  Right.

• 50:37Speaker 05

  Your brain literally cannot process, make decisions, have any form of executive functioning. And so when you are having a changing hormonal brain, your body is aching, you're charged with taking care of this newborn, and then you inject insomnia or sleep deprivation, it literally becomes a form of torture. And so we tell people, I do it all the time, sleep when the baby sleeps, sleep when the baby sleeps. But what happens is you go clean the kitchen, because you have to. You have to feed yourself, and dare you want to take a shower. And so it compounds itself. Within that first 24 hours, if you're not used to sleep deprivation, you can start having disordered thinking.

• 51:20Speaker 05

  By three days, hallucinations, delusions can easily set in. So we joke, oh, she's tired, she's a new mom. This is serious.

• 51:29Oprah Winfrey?

  And once that sets in, does that lead to psychosis?

• 51:35Speaker 05

  It's not gonna happen in the person who isn't predisposed, right? You're just gonna be a mess if three days in, you haven't slept. If you are somebody who has a history of bipolar disorder, or this is gonna be the break where you are gonna become bipolar, we didn't know it, you're gonna have a different response. And I want to make another really important point, I think. Postpartum psychosis, the waxing and waning has really fascinated people, and it makes you feel like, is this believable? It is different than schizophrenics or schizoaffective disorder, primary psychotic disorders. We don't think of postpartum psychosis like that.

• 52:17Speaker 05

  It's the same word, but it's a different presentation. These moms are not walking around, talking to themselves, hallucinating, stopping you on the street, you know. That's not what we're seeing. That's a chronic illness. This is a temporary, treatable, and fully recoverable illness. That's postpartum psychosis. It's different.

• 52:40Oprah Winfrey?

  And it's happening because of the hormonal imbalance?

• 52:43Speaker 05

  Because of genetics, because of biological predisposition, and because of the hormonal change. Different people are sensitively.

• 52:49Oprah Winfrey?

  All combined.

• 52:50Speaker 05

  All combined.

• 52:51Oprah Winfrey?

  And I want to bring in our audience now. Jocelyn is here with her daughter, Brittany. And I hear the two of you also don't agree about this case. Mother and daughter, yes?

• 53:00Speaker 01

  Hi, Oprah.

• 53:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi.

• 53:01Speaker 01

  Thank you so much. I'm so happy you're bringing up this conversation. Yes, I'm here with my daughter, Brittany, and we have two different thoughts on this topic. Me having gone through postpartum depression when I had her, kind of like, I feel for Lindsay and what she's going through.

• 53:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Did you have a word for it when you were going through it with her? Did you know what it was?

• 53:24Speaker 01

  Well, no. Well, back then, postpartum depression wasn't a thing. So going to a doctor was like, literally, you're depressed, you'll be fine, you'll get over it. But you know your body, and I knew something was totally wrong with me. Didn't want to get up, didn't want to eat, couldn't stop crying. And the saddest thing is like, I didn't want to take care of my baby. I mean, I'm so glad that mine's wasn't as bad as some of these other mothers.

• 53:49Oprah Winfrey?

  So you never went into psychosis?

• 53:51Speaker 01

  No, not where I heard voices, but I just didn't, the bonding with my daughter, it was just not there. Like, I didn't even want to hold her, or, you know, never mind like, feed her or anything like that.

• 54:04Oprah Winfrey?

  So you all are differing about the case?

• 54:08Speaker 01

  We are.

• 54:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Yeah, we have opposing views.

• 54:11Speaker 01

  We do, and I think, you know, I say to her, I think, so she hasn't gone through it, she's not a mother, so she doesn't know how it feels to have a child.

• 54:18Oprah Winfrey?

  And you disagree?

• 54:20Speaker 01

  I disagree. I feel like I'm not with the majority right now. I do believe she's a murderer.

• 54:27Oprah Winfrey?

  After all you've heard today, you still?

• 54:29Speaker 01

  I'm an advocate for mental health.

• 54:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 54:31Speaker 01

  It's just unfortunate, like, and she's so quick to say it. She's like, you've never had a baby, you don't understand what it's like to go through all the hormonal shifts. But I just feel as though these were not instant deaths. They weren't gunshots to the head. She was there strangling her kids three times.

• 54:52Oprah Winfrey?

  You're telling me, like, even after the first time, she couldn't snap out of it. You're watching the life leave your kid's eyes, you know? So, I know, I hear everybody's opinions, and God bless mothers, but at the same I just don't understand how we can empathize with somebody that they weren't strangers, they were her kids, and she was able to grab those exercise bands, that took a lot of effort, and it breaks my heart that these young kids have gone through that, but it's, I'm grateful that this conversation is happening, because I do believe, like, women,

• 55:33Oprah Winfrey?

  they are on the back burner when it comes to mental health. If this was a man, like, there would be, like, a law the next day, or something going on, but... There would have been research. It would have been funded. Something, right away. But it's just, I just feel like with her, it's becoming, she's becoming a mascot for just, I feel like so many mothers empathize with her so much, that they want to put her out there, make her a mascot, and they're turning something so negative into a movement. Okay, I hear that. So y'all will continue, you all will not be agreeing no time soon.

• 56:08Speaker 01

  No, we're not.

• 56:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you for being here. So, so, Alicia's in the audience, where do you stand, Alicia? Alicia?

• 56:17Speaker 01

  So, I do believe that she had, was going through mental health, and I'm and I'm sorry for all the women that that happened to. But I feel as though that just because you have a reason, kind of doesn't give you an excuse. Yes, there needs to be more funding, yes, you know, like, this is a real thing. But at the time when she was reaching out for help, not the time when she was in psychosis, killing her children, she, you didn't get the help, she was in enough state of mind where she knew that she needed help, why didn't she just remove herself?

• 56:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 56:52Speaker 01

  She had a husband living there, she could have left the house, act like she was going to the store, and came back, called, "Hey, I can't come back home, because this is how I'm feeling." And I feel like sometimes that's a hard choice for someone to make, you know, but you can't just, like, now that it's got to psychosis, now we have to give her an excuse for murder, and that's where I stand with that.

• 57:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. So I think one of the lessons from, thank you for sharing that, Alicia, one of the lessons from this conversation, if you are a mother, or know of a mother, or at some point in your life are going to encounter this experience, is to know, the moment you start having those thoughts, you are in trouble. You are in trouble, that you, that you are in a state of emergency and need to get help. And anybody who hears your friend, your mother, your sister say, "I'm having these thoughts", you then, that is the red flag, that has gone from pink to red, you then need to take action.

• 57:58Oprah Winfrey?

  So if, you know, her husband, who were like, was like you, was like you, didn't know this at all, when he heard her say, "I want to harm the children", that was the moment to do something. Is that, am I accurate here?

• 58:12Speaker 01

  Yeah, I also want to say, it's, it's not acknowledging the pressure on women, though. Right? When you're not well, to ask for that help, or when you believe that you're supposed to do it all, and you're carrying the motherload, society expects you to be perfect. So what are we supposed to do? It's a very confounding position. This bliss myth of what it is to be a mother is so societally ingrained that it is very hard to come forward, and I don't think we can ignore that in this discussion.

• 58:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Michelle Oberman wrote an opinion piece in the New York Times titled, "I Study Women Who Killed Their Children: Lindsay Clancy Deserves Mercy." Michelle is a professor at Santa Clara University School of Law, and the author of "When Mothers Kill: Interviews From Prison." Michelle, why do you believe Lindsay should be acquitted by reason of insanity? And can you break down what that means for us?

• 59:11Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I'm gonna start with the way in which we judge insanity, which, even though we're in 2026, dates back to 1843. Our standard for insanity, the way that we drew it up in 1843, is, could she know the difference between right and wrong? And the, like, just to set the stage, when a criminal would come in to be tried in 1843, and there was a question about whether or not they understood the difference between right and wrong, you would bring an expert into the court, and they would take a measurement of the cranium. And that's how you could know, they would apply, well, the size of the brain would indicate that this person is criminologic in their intent. So that's our legal standard.

• 59:57Speaker 01

  Around 60 years ago, Massachusetts, one of literally less than a handful of states in the country, modernized its insanity defense to include, "Could she control her behavior?" So does she know right or wrong, and could she control her behavior? And I, I mean, thank you so much to both of you for telling your stories, because I think that answers the question of why this insanity test doesn't really map on to postpartum psychosis. I mean, clearly, you both knew the difference between right and wrong, and there were moments at which you could control your behavior, and then moments at which you really couldn't. And the intrusiveness of the voice made it unbelievably difficult to control your emotions.

• 1:00:43Speaker 01

  And when we put somebody like Lindsay Clancy under that legal test, we end up with the debate that we're having right now in social media, throughout the country, and indeed throughout the world, like, did she know right and wrong? Did she have the ability to control her behavior? Well, she took the child to a pediatrician's appointment, they, they made snow angels. And, like, honestly, like, the reason why I feel like this should be a not guilty for reasons of insanity is that I think anybody looking at the case has a really hard time thinking that she was anything but really, really mentally ill. And that raises the question of, well, what's the purpose of punishment?

• 1:01:25Oprah Winfrey?

  When you believe that because 11 of the 12 jurors reportedly were in favor, 11 of the 12 reportedly were in favor of a not guilty by reason of insanity verdict, that this is a real watershed moment, why do you think so?

• 1:01:40Speaker 01

  So, I'm old enough that I actually have been studying these cases almost as long as you've been interested in them, and, in fact, I was on your show, talking about Andrea Yates way back when. And the difference between that moment and now is the watershed moment, because while, in both cases, it's so hard to look away from the dead babies, the difference between Andrea Yates' coverage, which was a, just like, make us not look at this, we can't look at this anymore, and this moment where there is an outpouring of conversation around mental health and mental illness, that is the watershed moment.

• 1:02:25Speaker 01

  And for those of us that have spent time, you know, the stay-at-home jurors, if you will, watching this case, no matter how much time we've spent, it's not as much time as those jurors sitting in Duxbury. And the fact that 11 out of those 12 sat and listened to the terrible details of the case, and walked away saying, "This person is not guilty, we cannot blame her", "We must excuse this terrible crime."

• 1:02:51Oprah Winfrey?

  That means there's a shift in the culture.

• 1:02:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:02:53Oprah Winfrey?

  For being open to even hearing what women have to say.

• 1:02:57Speaker 01

  Right.

• 1:02:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 1:02:58Speaker 01

  I mean, and I think it's, it's like a little bit related to COVID as well, like, we all lived through a time where mental health and mental illness became really legible, right? Like, we were just struggling. And then that, plus social media, has women telling these stories that until now were so shameful that we kept them locked up. One in five women experience some sort of perinatal mental illness, OCD, insomnia, anxiety, right? I mean, it is real that it is a struggle for many women to get through the pregnancy.

• 1:03:33Oprah Winfrey?

  And that's why I think it's unfair, as we were saying earlier, as you all were saying earlier, that it's on a spectrum. It's unfair for a woman to judge another woman based upon what happened to her.

• 1:03:44Speaker 01

  100%.

• 1:03:45Oprah Winfrey?

  To say, "Well, when I went through it, and I was able to stay up all night, and I was, I didn't have any sleep, and I didn't want to kill much", I think it's unfair, because it's a spectrum. It's not just about what's happening in your brain, it's about what's happening in everyone's brain, and there is a spectrum, and everyone's different. I read that many other countries have guidelines for postpartum women who kill their children. Can you explain what they are doing differently than we are doing differently?

• 1:04:13Speaker 01

  Yeah, so, in England, which is, I mean, it's sort of a surprising thing. Over 100 years ago, they passed a law called their Infanticide Act. And when a mother kills a child under the age of 12 months, even though it, it might look like an intentional killing, first-degree murder, she's charged with infanticide, and the infanticide statute says that the, you know, because the balance of her mind was disturbed by reasons of childbirth or lactation, it's prosecuted as manslaughter, and the presumptive sentence is probation and counseling. There's no public spectacle. There also is no higher rate of infanticide in England.

• 1:04:58Speaker 01

  It's not like, ooh, without this, without first-degree murder, everybody's killing their children. That, that law has been replicated in between 20 and 30 countries around the world. And it's not a perfect law. I mean, to be sure, some of the mothers deserve a full-out not guilty for reasons of insanity, rather than a manslaughter conviction. And maybe some of them actually don't deserve the manslaughter, they weren't insane or mentally ill at all, and they deserve a guilty verdict. But what it does is it acknowledges that there is something so different about these cases that our conventional tools of first-degree Murder or the insanity defense, that binary choice that the jury in Duxbury faced.

• 1:05:43Speaker 01

  Like, those tools are just not up to the task. And so it doesn't have to be the kind of media circus that we're seeing in this case. We can actually resolve the cases as, you know, within a healthcare system and find ways to focus on prevention and mental health care.

• 1:06:04Oprah Winfrey?

  And also, can we talk about the fact that we are a culture that expects the woman to do every frickin' thing?

• 1:06:13Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:06:14Oprah Winfrey?

  You know, we should take a lesson from some other cultures for whom the women come together, the sisters help, the mothers help, the people in the community help, the village help. When the child comes into the village, you know, that takes a village to raise a child. We are the culture that thinks we're the only ones who should be responsible for the baby.

• 1:06:37Speaker 01

  Yeah, and it wasn't always like that. I mean, industrialization, like the late 19th century, changed everything. People moved to cities, they have smaller families, they're in the house, they're far from extended family.

• 1:06:49Oprah Winfrey?

  So before that, women were...

• 1:06:51Speaker 01

  Throughout human history.

• 1:06:52Oprah Winfrey?

  The women gathered to help other women.

• 1:06:54Speaker 01

  This is the way humans raise babies.

• 1:06:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 1:06:56Speaker 01

  Throughout human history, there was somebody there to help that new mom. There was always somebody else to hold the baby. And then we move into these little places, right? And I'm moved by both of your stories because you've got supportive spouses and enough money to access mental health care. I mean, how does this look when you're just by yourself in the house with your two little babies and no health insurance?

• 1:07:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Makes me want to weep.

• 1:07:23Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 1:07:24Oprah Winfrey?

  I was thinking about that, you know. Yeah, go ahead.

• 1:07:27Speaker 04

  From a different perspective as an immigrant, and also, I grew up with a family of 12. And what I hear the expert been saying from the start is sleep and community. So I grew up and I raised most of my nieces and nephew because I was the youngest of 12s. And what I learned from my mom is when my sisters would give birth, the first time after they come from the hospital, the baby is only given to my sisters when they need to breastfeed. After that, we take turn at the sisters to make sure the baby is taken care of and the mom sleeps. Sleep is very, very, very important. And I think here in the United States,

• 1:08:10Speaker 04

  coming from Senegal, I see how much we work and how much we're depending in the society to pay the bills that we forget about ourselves. We work year round. Back home, you have a year off, paid year off. And we are an underdevelopment country, and we get paid a year off when you give birth. And here in the United States, you can't even have three months after you give birth. So that is unacceptable.

• 1:08:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, you're exactly what I was talking about, the village of women.

• 1:08:41Speaker 04

  Is the village. So I think if we change our mindset, we will be living in a better world.

• 1:08:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, thank you for that. Thank you.

• 1:08:52Oprah Winfrey?

  All of our guests today have husbands who were supportive, but if you're trying to do this by yourself...

• 1:08:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, on my mind is this case in California.

• 1:08:58Oprah Winfrey?

  What happens if you're trying to do this by yourself and you're hearing, you're seeing the man outside?

• 1:09:02Speaker 01

  Yeah. I mean, Carol Coronado is this, she's a woman serving three consecutive life sentences in California. The facts are so similar to Lindsay Clancy's case, except that there was no money and no ability to acknowledge what was going on. And if you ever want to, like, just experience sheer horror, at the trial, they played the voice messages. She was leaving her mom screaming, you know, mommy, mommy, come help, come help.

• 1:09:30Speaker 01

  There was just no help to be had. And what we do is first-degree murder prosecutions and an insanity test that doesn't fit postpartum psychosis. Did she know what was wrong? She called her mom. She said, mommy, come help. So she knew what was wrong. So she's guilty.

• 1:09:46Oprah Winfrey?

  We want to invite other points of view on this. Nicole Russell is an opinion columnist for USA Today, and she recently wrote an op-ed titled, "Lindsay Clancy Isn't a Motherhood Martyr, She's a Killer." She joins us from her home in Texas. Nicole, you've been listening to us. What's been your reaction to this whole case?

• 1:10:07Speaker 04

  Thank you for having me, Oprah.

• 1:10:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 1:10:09Speaker 04

  I think this has been an incredible conversation. I'm really glad to hear all these points of view, especially for the women who share their stories. I am a mom of four. I, at one point, had four kids under the age of six. And I do remember the sleepless nights and the exhaustion. But I do see an online reaction that seems very extreme.

• 1:10:39Speaker 04

  The women who are cheering her on outside the courthouse and the sort of TikTok moms, as was mentioned, it seems like we've gone online, at least, maybe not in this conversation, from compassion and empathy to kind of harrowing her as a hero. And I think it's important to remind people that we can acknowledge and we should acknowledge all the struggles of postpartum mental health without offering kind of this toxic empathy that excuses the murders of the three innocent children. Other than what you mentioned at the outset, that hasn't really been, you know,

• 1:11:24Speaker 04

  a topic of even this conversation. Sort of what will demand justice for those kids?

• 1:11:31Oprah Winfrey?

  And what does justice for the kids look like to you, Nicole? What do you think?

• 1:11:35Speaker 04

  I've been wrestling with that, especially as I watched, you know, the decision Friday of a mistrial. I think it is clear that she needs help. It seems like she did get a good amount of help, although, you know, I wasn't in the courtroom. I didn't see every single testimony. But I do think she needs to be held accountable for what happened to her children.

• 1:11:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Are you saying she should be punished for it?

• 1:12:00Speaker 04

  I do think so. I think our justice system and the lives of the three innocent children demand that, especially now in light of the fact that there will have to be a new trial and her ex-husband will have to endure the same thing all over again. He too has lost his children. And I just feel like, especially online, again, not in this conversation that we're having, but online especially, I'm just seeing, you know, kind of this movement of toxicity of making Lindsay Clancy sort of a poster child. And I don't think she's the right poster child for this conversation because her children are still dead.

• 1:12:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Is she a poster child for, and just using your term, but, you know, I started this conversation with the idea and intention of sharing with the audience, how do we use this moment to move ourselves forward? I mean, so is she a poster child for, as I was sharing and Michelle was sharing, she's been around long enough to talk, having talked to enough mothers over the years who have killed their children, and the court system, the society just said, oh, these are evil women. The fact that we are actually divided in this moment with other women saying, that was my story

• 1:13:24Oprah Winfrey?

  or that could have been my story, says to me that perhaps this is a time to use this for the medical profession, for the legal profession, to look at the laws, to look at what insanity laws, how they're defined, particularly for women who have killed their children and men, but also to look at ourselves as a society. How do we use this moment? How do we use Cora and Dawson and Callan's lives to move ourselves forward? Have you thought about that, Nicole?

• 1:14:00Speaker 04

  Absolutely. I think you're having the right conversation because you are asking those questions. How can we look at what happened if Lindsey... Is a sign of a system gone wrong.

• 1:14:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:11Speaker 04

  Or postpartum mental health struggles that we need to talk about. I think that's one thing. That is the conversation you're having.

• 1:14:17Oprah Winfrey?

  So your problem is that the women in the pink shirts and the you making her a martyr, as you said.

• 1:14:22Speaker 04

  Yeah, my specific takes at USA Today as an opinion columnist were simply that what I was seeing online, this sort of TikTok fan base of women holding their babies and saying, same Lindsay. I'm wondering, what does that mean? Do they mean they're struggling with mental health? Do they mean they're in the middle of postpartum psychosis? If so, they should log off and they should get help. Okay, but they shouldn't be just posting same Lindsay, holding their newborn for clicks. If they're really struggling.

• 1:14:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 1:14:57Speaker 04

  They need to turn inward. But like you said, go to your family, go to your medical professionals. But I'm kind of, it kind of looks like I'm seeing, again, especially an online fan base that's gone way too far. And I don't think there's any amount of online sympathy for the hardships of motherhood that should overshadow the horrific actions that stole the lives of those children.

• 1:15:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, thank you. Thank you, Nicole. Your opinion got my attention. Thank you so much. Thanks for sharing. Kaitlin Flanagan is also an author columnist for the Free Press, and she wrote an article that also caught my attention, titled "The Lindsay Clancy Fan Club," the same thing that you're saying. And Kaitlin joins us from her home in California. Hi and welcome, Kaitlin. It's been a little over a week since you wrote your piece, and the public reaction is getting even louder. What do you want to say?

• 1:15:48Speaker 04

  I think you said everything with that first word in the conversation, when you used that word reconcile. It really struck me. How do we reconcile these two things? I, you know, the fact of these dead children, you know, we're often asked to look beyond them. Michelle, who wrote that great piece in The New York Times, a very considered piece, and spoke with you just now, said it's so hard to look away from the dead babies. I think we need to look at them. We need to look at what happened. And these are three very small children. And they were killed in a very, very painful, terrifying way by the person in this world

• 1:16:33Speaker 04

  that they learned to depend on the most and who would always, they trusted her, they loved her, and that out of her mind face was the last they saw on this earth. And I think that it makes sense that a lot of people are having, there's, there's almost an unanswerable question morally here in terms of what should we do about this legally? What's the punishment for this criminally? But I think the fact is, you know, those little kids, you know, they had their things ready for their clothes, everything ready for preschool the next day. People were, their friends were waiting for them to show up.

• 1:17:17Speaker 04

  They were life in session. And that little eight-month-old baby, we can't look away from him. So I'm not saying this in terms of, oh, only a guilty verdict would be right. I think it's more in the sense of, can we ever reconcile these two things? I don't know. I just don't know. I don't have an answer.

• 1:17:38Oprah Winfrey?

  You, you, in your article, you wrote, "Compassion for a woman who says she was driven by mental illness to commit the world's greatest form of evil has turned into something strange and almost exultant celebration of Lindsay Clancy." So what do you think is behind the women rallying around Lindsay Clancy?

• 1:17:56Speaker 04

  Well, there's been a lot of misinformation that I, I hear it still being echoed today that, that, you know, she couldn't get the help and she kept trying to get the help. The perniciousness of this illness is that she got a ton of help. But I sat down yesterday and I read through the transcript and I read through the two complaints and the two lawsuits. And she didn't tell one professional that she had thoughts of harming her children. She was very guarded about that. She told her husband twice. She told her mother once. But she really guarded that information, which I presume is, you know, part of a psychotic

• 1:18:39Speaker 04

  response in sort of knowing that you're keeping two books of business in your mind.

• 1:18:43Oprah Winfrey?

  If you've been listening to our conversation today, you hear that is pretty normal. I mean, Brooke didn't even tell her husband. She saw the man outside the window and she was having those thoughts for months. So are we going to judge her because she didn't tell or how she told?

• 1:19:01Speaker 04

  I'm not talking about judging her in any of, of what I've had to say, you know, writing about her. But I'm just saying, all of the interventions that sound so wonderful because we're so eager to never have this happen again, we talk about more mental health services. That doesn't seem to really help. We talk about more family around. She had a ton of family. I think this is so deep and pernicious an illness. And I understand completely why in other eras it was understood to be a, a kind of demonic possession for this short period of time. So I'm not saying that, you know, I've never thought she should be tried, be called a murderer. I don't, you know?

• 1:19:44Speaker 04

  I think every single mother, the minute you heard a glimmer of this case, every woman said, oh, I know what that is. And that's the darkness. And we all know about the darkness to whatever extent it came up.

• 1:19:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And you think that's why the women are rallying around her? That's what that is?

• 1:20:00Speaker 04

  I think so. But as mothers, our other obligation, I think, and women, is to really care about children. And so when I see women in these Lindsay-supporting T-shirts but not talking about those three children, I think, you know, we're just more polarized than ever. And about how do we reconcile it? I don't know if we ever can.

• 1:20:23Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 1:20:24Speaker 04

  You know? It's not by, it's not by punishing these women very harshly. They weren't in their right mind.

• 1:20:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you, Kaitlin. Thank you.

• 1:20:35Speaker 04

  I can't say anything definitively because it's just like I keep thinking of your room, your expression, how do we reconcile? It's, it's one of those human things that maybe only God understands. We can't reconcile it. We don't know what to do. And, and I think of having an awareness.

• 1:20:54Oprah Winfrey?

  But don't you think it's showing itself to us so that we can figure out what to do? Don't you think that this is a moment for us to start thinking about what to do? So reconcile, perhaps is the wrong term. We can't. But how do we now move forward from this? How do we use this moment to elevate the way we think about it? Can we do that?

• 1:21:21Speaker 04

  I think there are a lot of us, and I'm in the side of this, actually, who can understand, oh, she wasn't in her right mind. She didn't, she didn't know what she was doing. And I, I think something obviously was driving her the whole time. Something terrible was driving her. But I haven't heard anybody, you know, it's so rare. It gets our attention. It must be a very human response to police ourselves. I think that's why the angry side is so angry. I think there's something deep in us that says, nobody should kill a baby. And we're just all here. And there's been these kind of horrible spectacle made of it, and it's almost like

• 1:22:06Speaker 04

  it's a true crime show. And people are getting on TikTok and getting excited. And it's just, it's grotesque.

• 1:22:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. You're, yes. All right. Dr. Bernoff, did you want to say something to that?

• 1:22:19Speaker 05

  Many things.

• 1:22:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 1:22:21Speaker 05

  If, as I understand it, and I didn't evaluate Lindsay, but based on what you're saying, Meg, based on what we know about her history, her love of her kids, her job as a labor and delivery nurse, she would never have killed her kids if she were not severely ill. I understand that we cannot look past, and we should never. It is horrific. It's unspeakable. It makes me cry to think about those kids. But to punish her for something that, that's illness? We are not taking women's mental health seriously.

• 1:23:03Speaker 05

  We can't bear to think that moms can struggle in this way. And until we believe that, until we understand that women's mental health around reproductive times of change, pregnancy, childbirth, and the postpartum can cause severe and potentially lethal illness, we are nowhere.

• 1:23:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. All right.

• 1:23:27Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 1:23:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Each of you want to say something? Yes.

• 1:23:31Speaker 04

  I was gonna say, postpartum psychosis, it's a medical emergency. And a medical emergency requires treatment, not shame. And the only way that we can move forward is to have amazing, interactive conversations like this. Reduce the stigma. Acknowledge that it is hard for mothers to speak up, and there's guilt and shame. And maybe, in fact, they're experiencing hearing a voice that's telling them not to say anything, because it is such a spectrum. And I just want to say that I, the one message I would like to share is, I want to galvanize everyone here. I don't want everyone to feel paralyzed, because in fact, there's a lot that we can do with postpartum psychosis and early detection. Unfortunately, we can't change the past, and we can't take back the lives of those who were lost in the tragedies.

• 1:24:16Speaker 04

  But what we can do is we can recognize early signs and symptoms of postpartum psychosis in the next mother. And overall, reduce that as we talk about it more, as we have more conversations. So I think early detection, the pink flags, before it progresses to red flags. The three Ts for postpartum psychosis. Temporary, treatable, timely. It's very timely. If we get moms help immediately, we can save lives. I think those are major things. So you know, there's a lot we can do, and parental leave and the postpartum period. And I have to say, of hundreds and hundreds of women I have treated over the years, and dads too, there are two things they always ask me. One is validation. Am I doing OK? Am I a good enough mom? From the mom who's in the C-suite that I treat,

• 1:25:01Speaker 04

  to the mom who's in state legislature, to the mom who's incarcerated and a single mom, they ask that. But secondly, Dr. Hader, can you help me sleep? And I wish I could send a prescription for a newborn care specialist to help them sleep. But unfortunately, we can. And economically, we need to talk about that. And society as a whole, we need to move forward. And we have to talk about early detection, the pink flags, and empowering the village. Family, husbands, spouses, grandmothers, sisters, neighbors, the countless number of people connected to just one mom, because it is, in fact, countless.

• 1:25:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Empowering the village. We are the village, yes, doctor.

• 1:25:39Speaker 01

  And what I was just gonna add finally is, when you see your obstetrician, you're thinking about pregnancy, start to have these conversations. It is not shameful to talk about your risk factors, which could be depression, bipolar disorder, not having a supportive spouse, limited resources. All of these are little risk factors that when you take away at them and add a baby sleep deprivation on top, can really have you tip over. And the other thing that I would just be remiss to not say is, I hope this never happens again. We know statistically, it really will.

• 1:26:16Oprah Winfrey?

  It will.

• 1:26:16Speaker 01

  I want us to have the same passion for people who don't look like Lindsay, who don't have her same access. Yeah.

• 1:26:31Speaker 01

  Who don't have her same access and education, her melanin, her privilege. There are women of color sitting around this country in prisons for this same thing that we've never heard of. And I just want to remind us to have the pink shirts and the energy for them as well.

• 1:26:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Michelle, what changes would you like to see in terms of how cases are tried and sentenced?

• 1:27:06Speaker 05

  So I think the British model is an imperfect one, but certainly doesn't take all of the money and the hoopla that we've invested in the Clancy prosecution and perhaps re-prosecution. But the short-term, easy fix is to allow judges to have discretion, again, at sentencing. So that if you have a district attorney who, like the district attorney in Duxbury, is like, I need to prosecute in order to vindicate the lives of these children, then at least the judge could say what they won't be able to say here, which is, this just doesn't seem like a life in prison. Punishment is just. And to allow that judge to deviate

• 1:27:49Speaker 05

  from the required sentence for first-degree murder and to make a sentence that seems perhaps a bit more merciful.

• 1:27:56Oprah Winfrey?

  I thank you all so much. We'll have to end it here. Thank you to all of my guests. Thank you for having the courage to speak up. Thank you, audience. Before we all leave here today, I want to again just speak their names of the beautiful children. Cora, Dawson, and Callan. Go well, everybody. Thank you.

• 1:28:26Oprah Winfrey?

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