Pod Insights The Oprah Podcast Oprah and Jacinda Ardern: A Different Kind of Power About this episode The Right Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern, former prime minister of New Zealand, joins The Oprah Podcast to discuss her new memoir, A Different Kind of Power which is available on June 3rd, 2025 . At age 37, Jacinda Ardern made history as the youngest female head of state in the entire world. Jacinda tells Oprah why, in an unprecedented moment for a world leader, she announced she would be using kindness as her guiding principle as prime minister of New Zealand. Jacinda Ardern also talks to Oprah about what it was like finding out she was pregnant on the eve of her election in 2017. Oprah asks the former prime minister about her international headline-making moments including taking her baby to the floor of the United Nations, leading New Zealand through the worst mass shooting in the country’s history and her quick yet widely criticized response to the COVID pandemic as well as her decision to resign. Jacinda Ardern also shares home video of personal and political moments of her time in office from the new documentary Prime Minister which premieres in theaters on June 13, 2025.
PRIME MINISTER https://www.primeministerdoc.com/ is in theaters June 13, with special AMC preview screenings featuring a live Q&A with Rt. Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern on June 8.
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Transcript 12,449 words · 2 speakers
Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:01 Oprah Winfrey? Well, hey there. Glad you're here with me on the Oprah Podcast. My guest today is the former Prime Minister of New Zealand, the Right Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern. And when she was only 37 years old, she made history as the youngest female head of state in the entire world. That means on the planet Earth. But what truly set her apart was her mission to lead with kindness.
0:27 Speaker 01 If I could distill it down into one concept that we are pursuing in New Zealand, it is simple and it is this: kindness.
0:35 Oprah Winfrey? Her first memoir is now available, and it's called A Different Kind of Power. And I highly recommend it for anybody who's thinking about leadership in your own life or been through challenging times or just living and being able to live at the utmost best, even in the crises of your life. It's a different kind of power, and being able to tap into that power is what this book is all about. And also, the new documentary, Prime Minister, which is so revelatory and really a thrill to watch.
1:11 Speaker 01 How do we shine a light on the humanity that I know is still there and amongst everything else?
1:17 Oprah Winfrey? The documentary will be released exclusively in theaters on June 13, just a week from now as we're speaking. Jacinda Ardern, welcome.
1:25 Speaker 01 Thank you. What a pleasure to be here.
1:27 Oprah Winfrey? It is such an honor to have you here.
1:29 Speaker 01 Oh, the treat is all mine. Thank you.
1:31 Oprah Winfrey? Well, I have to tell you, I had the, I don't even know what you call it, my first experience in New Zealand. I was filming a movie called Wrinkle in Time, and we shot it in New Zealand. And I wanted to go just because it was being filmed in New Zealand. And I have never experienced a world like that. It's like you're driving along and you turn a corner and you're like, "Oh, my gosh, everything is breathtaking."
1:59 Speaker 01 It is. It is genuinely a breathtaking place. And with beautiful people, too, just really beautiful, wonderful people.
2:07 Oprah Winfrey? And what do you love most about being from New Zealand?
2:10 Speaker 01 The people.
2:11 Oprah Winfrey? The people.
2:11 Speaker 01 I do think the people, you know, and that there's something that I've missed since I've been away. But you can still spot a New Zealander when you're out in the world often. You know, little things. I'll be walking through an airport. And recently I saw someone walk past me with a, with a piece of greenstone, ponamoo, around their neck.
2:28 Oprah Winfrey? Uh huh.
2:28 Speaker 01 And I just yelled, "Kyura", and then you just hear a "Kyura" ring out back in response. You know, wherever you are in the world, there's that affinity because you come from such a special place.
2:39 Oprah Winfrey? And everybody knows it.
2:40 Speaker 01 Everyone, we do know it.
2:42 Oprah Winfrey? I did sense when I was there that everybody knows that it is.
2:45 Speaker 01 And I think appreciate it and for the most part cares for it as well. And you would have seen the natural beauty. We feel, I think, lucky to have that.
2:55 Oprah Winfrey? Well, and that you have more sheep than people, too.
2:57 Speaker 01 And cows.
2:58 Oprah Winfrey? And cows.
2:59 Speaker 01 Let's not forget. But I, I remember seeing recently that you had planned or at least wanted to hike in New Zealand to mark your birthday.
3:07 Oprah Winfrey? I'm still planning on it.
3:07 Speaker 01 But you said you couldn't find anyone to hike with. There are five million people.
3:12 Oprah Winfrey? Who would be willing to hike with me.
3:13 Speaker 01 Who would be willing to hike with you.
3:14 Oprah Winfrey? I know. That is still on my bucket list.
3:17 Speaker 01 Please come back. It's a great place to hike.
3:21 Oprah Winfrey? Do you miss it?
3:21 Speaker 01 I do.
3:22 Oprah Winfrey? Being in Boston?
3:23 Speaker 01 I do. I miss, I miss the people. I miss the place. But it'll always be home and I'll be back.
3:28 Oprah Winfrey? And you'll be back.
3:29 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
3:30 Oprah Winfrey? Well, I just, well, first of all, I, over the years, have loved book titles. I love first lines of book. I love titles. And I think this is such a powerful title, a different kind of power. How did you come to it and what was the inspiration?
3:45 Speaker 01 It was a real process. I don't know whether I'm meant to share the iterative process. You know, I remember one of the early titles I floated with the publisher.
3:55 Oprah Winfrey? Was?
3:56 Speaker 01 Run. It was just. And they said to me, but it might convey that people should, you know, turn their back on challenging opportunities. And I said, well, that's, that's part of the appeal for me because actually my first instinct when faced with really, you know, huge responsibility was run. But actually I also wanted it to be a call to action, you know, to push through that, to take on the opportunity to run for elected office or whatever might come your way. But in the end decided it might be misconstrued as a jogging book. And so we just kept. Landed with this, and for me, I think a different kind of power.
4:39 Speaker 01 I, you know, I think I could go as far back as to say I really grew up with a series of character traits that over the years I believed were weaknesses. Things that I thought would hold me back in, in life, you know, a lack of confidence being a significant one. But if.
4:55 Oprah Winfrey? Which is so shocking when I read this, that you had that thing that I, I'm still trying to understand. And I certainly am trying to understand why you have imposter syndrome.
5:06 Speaker 01 Yeah. I was 14 years old when someone first used the term imposter syndrome. And it was just like something clicked. Suddenly I had words to describe how I'd felt for every speech competition I did. Or any challenge where I just had a bit of a seed of doubt and a fear that something might expose that I shouldn't be there. I think a lot of people have it.
5:32 Oprah Winfrey? I know a lot of people have it.
5:33 Speaker 01 But we don't talk about it because we have that fear that if you are too articulate it, that that will be a sign of weakness, that people will lack confidence in you.
5:43 Oprah Winfrey? You say this about your younger self. My whole short life, I had grappled with the idea that I was never quite good enough. Why do you think you felt that way?
5:52 Speaker 01 I, I struggled to pinpoint the origin of it. It certainly was, I mean, I had the most encouraging family.
5:59 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
5:59 Speaker 01 I had wonderful teachers.
6:01 Oprah Winfrey? Not just encouraging family, I love the fact that you had a father who was a policeman.
6:04 Speaker 01 Yeah.
6:05 Oprah Winfrey? Who cared about people and he believed that to fix crime, that you had to understand why the crime was happening, which is highly unusual, I would think, for a lot of, you know, police officers.
6:16 Speaker 01 Incredible role models.
6:17 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
6:18 Speaker 01 Incredible role models. And so this, you know, when I think back, what was the source of this confidence gap? I couldn't tell you. I think that a, a number of people who have talked about it often might say the same thing. It's something they identify quite early on and they can't tell you its origin. But I noticed it in our young people. And I remember as a young member of parliament, going in to give a speech about leadership to a group of young women. They were aged from probably about thirteen to fifteen. And I went through an exercise with them where I said, I want you to write down your dream occupation, the thing that you, if you could do anything, would love to do with your life. And diligently, I saw them all thinking for a moment, writing it down. And then I said to them, now I want you to write down what you think you'll do.
7:02 Speaker 01 And you know, in a way, it was a trick question. I thought that they'd be confused by it. I thought they'd write the same thing twice. Nope, straight away, pins were picked up and they wrote down what they believed. And I asked a handful of them, okay, tell me your dream job. And one girl said to me, I'd like to be a doctor. I said, that's wonderful. And what do you think you'll be? Without skipping a beat, oh, I'll be probably a travel agent. You know, these two vastly different occupations. And I asked her, why do you think that you'll be a travel agent? She said, I just think someone else will be better at being a doctor than I will be. And here we are, I mean, this young woman, what is it in her life at that early stage
7:47 Speaker 01 had given her that mindset? But it was there. And so I do think there are more people than we know.
7:55 Oprah Winfrey? There are more, but and I also think that you don't become what you want or what you desire. You actually become what you believe. So you lean into the thing that you most believe, which if it is being a travel agent, that's what you end up pursuing and not the thing that you would aspire to. Because you're going to lean to the thing that you most believe is possible.
8:19 Speaker 01 And perhaps this is one of the reasons why I feel so motivated to talk about and to articulate and to say out loud the thing that I think some people just don't, which is, yeah, I've had a confidence gap. My whole life, still do. It's not something I think you can magically disappear or press away.
8:37 Oprah Winfrey? Well, I'm only, I'm bringing it up because you bring it up in the book, obviously. And I'm also bringing it up because I have been such an admirer of yours across the sea all this time. And I just stood in awe of your leadership. Now I know what was going on behind the scenes, but I just stood in awe of your ability to stand in such grace and such power that seemed to be coming from not out here, not from what everybody expected or wanted you to say. But there was an inner strength and an inner knowingness that came from a sense of wisdom I saw in you. So then, when I read that all this time you were suffering, I'm like, how could that be true?
9:20 Oprah Winfrey? So when you became Prime Minister in 2017, you said that you planned on using kindness
9:26 Speaker 01 Yeah.
9:27 Oprah Winfrey? as your guiding principle.
9:29 Speaker 01 And the face of isolationism, protectionism, racism, the simple concept of looking outwardly and beyond ourselves, of kindness and collectivism, might just be as good a starting point as any.
9:44 Oprah Winfrey? You say kindness has a power. What do you think that power is? And a strength that almost nothing else on this planet has?
9:51 Speaker 01 Well, you, you, you mentioned earlier my father. You know, and actually, both my parents were incredible role models. And in the process of writing about childhood, one of the things that came through to me clearly, which I already knew to be true, was how influential their example was to me. My father was a policeman for 40 years before retiring. And there were so many times when I saw him policing in the community, but we lived in a very small town for a time. And so I got to see close up him at work. And he always had, I think, that approach to policing that he was a member of a community first and foremost. And if he was going to police successfully, he needed to build trust. And to build trust, he needed to try and bring dignity to the work that
10:35 Speaker 01 he did. I remember one day, I was only little, I probably, I would have been maybe six or seven. And to get into, to walk into the little township, which I'd do every so often to go and get a bag of lollies or something, I would cut through the car park at the police station. And I remember coming through one day and seeing my dad surrounded by, what a reflection I know were gang members. And I, you know, I knew enough to know that it looked like a pretty bad situation. And my dad clocked me and he told me to just keep walking. And, you know, so off I went, but then worrying the entire time about how my dad got out of that situation. That night, I asked him about it, thinking that
11:19 Speaker 01 because he was so outnumbered, that he must have had to have used force in some way. And he looked so disappointed at my assumption. And I remember him saying to me, the greatest tool that I have will always be my words. You know, and so he, he was someone who modeled, role modeled, I think, to me, as did my mother, the importance of communication, the importance of empathy, the importance of kindness, even in such a difficult job like policing. And so I think that was probably some of the earliest examples for me of how there can be a strength and a power to kindness and empathy, which we often forget in leadership.
11:58 Oprah Winfrey? I am so glad you're here for this very special episode of the Oprah Podcast with former Prime Minister of New Zealand, Dame Jacinda Ardern. Coming up, I ask her to take us back to the moment she found out she won her historic election at just 37 years old, becoming the youngest female head of state in the world. It was also the same moment she found out she was pregnant. We're going to find out what was going on inside her head as she managed to lead a country with a baby in her arms, a story that made international headlines. All of you moms will appreciate this coming up. Stay with us. Welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. It means the world to me that you take the time out of your day for my first ever conversation with former Prime Minister of New Zealand,
12:43 Oprah Winfrey? the Right Honorable Dame Jacinda Ardern. I've wanted to sit down and talk with her for so many years. I've admired her. We're discussing her new memoir, A Different Kind of Power. I love that title and the new documentary called Prime Minister, which is a deeply personal look inside her life while she was in office. At 37 years old, wow. She became the youngest female head of state in the world and a mother at the exact same time. Double wow. Let's get back to our conversation. So was it after you stepped into the role of Prime Minister or before that you'd made a decision that I'm going to do this differently than I've ever seen anybody else do it? Because nobody, even if they were trying to do it a little bit,
13:25 Oprah Winfrey? ever announced that kindness is going to be my principle.
13:29 Speaker 01 Before, before. I might not have always articulated it as kindness. You know, at first, I think, when I went into politics, you know, the cut and thrust was always the bit that I struggled with. You know, we have a Westminster system in New Zealand, so it can be quite aggressive. It can be a bit of a bear pit. And I remember feeling that actually, as a thin-skinned, sensitive person, it was a hard place to be. And so originally, I thought, well, to survive here, I have to toughen up. But there was a politician who rightly pointed out to me that actually being sensitive is a form of empathy and that actually can be a kind of power.
14:03 Oprah Winfrey? A different kind of power.
14:04 Speaker 01 A different kind of power, a strength, not a weakness.
14:07 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
14:08 Speaker 01 And so I made a decision that, OK, then that was something I was going to hang on to. And it might not make me a successful politician because if our markers of success in politics or in leadership are, you know, to be overly confident or to bring ego or to be brash, then maybe I wouldn't succeed. But that's OK.
14:29 Oprah Winfrey? That's why it's so unusual to me that you are and have been such a strong leader, and particularly in the arena of politics. Because I think it requires, in general, and also specifics, we can look at different people in the world, various leaders in the world, it requires a pretty huge ego to do it. Wouldn't you say?
14:50 Speaker 01 Well, certainly, that seems to be, I think, the assumption we have.
14:55 Speaker 01 And yet, I think people would also agree that politics is a hard place to be. It is a hard place to be. And so, for the most part, my experience, at least in New Zealand, was that for the most part, even when you're on different sides of the, of the house.
15:10 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
15:11 Speaker 01 For the most part, people are usually motivated to improve the place they live in, to improve the lives of the people around them. They often just have very different ideas of what that looks like.
15:21 Oprah Winfrey? How they're, how they're gonna go about doing it.
15:23 Speaker 01 Uh, and, you know, the, the thing that I think increasingly turns people off politics is the way that it's seen in, in, you know, the public domain is that people don't have their eyes on improving people's lives. They're, they're in the politics, they're in there for the politics.
15:40 Oprah Winfrey? Right.
15:41 Speaker 01 But my experience is that often people sacrifice a lot to be there and most of the time, most of the time, it's for the right reasons.
15:47 Oprah Winfrey? Okay, so in a different kind of power, you led us in to your.
15:52 Speaker 01 Internal monologue.
15:53 Oprah Winfrey? Yes, into your internal monologue. Can you take us back to the eve of winning the election?
16:00 Speaker 01 Yeah.
16:01 Oprah Winfrey? And you take that pregnancy test.
16:04 Speaker 01 Yes.
16:04 Oprah Winfrey? And that little pink line shows up. Can you take us back to that extraordinary moment? What was going on?
16:11 Speaker 01 Well, it was a, it was, it was an extraordinary moment in a string of extraordinary moments. So I was the, we'd been in opposition for nine years, so we had not been in government for a long time. And so it was pretty soul destroying to be in that situation.
16:26 Oprah Winfrey? Your party, your.
16:27 Speaker 01 Your party.
16:27 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
16:28 Speaker 01 And so I was the deputy leader. Now, in New Zealand, being deputy leader does not mean you are the next in line. It means, actually, probably you're not too threatening.
16:37 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
16:38 Speaker 01 You're there in a, as, you know, a support person to the leader.
16:43 Oprah Winfrey? Which is where you'd always wanted to be anyway. You love being behind the scenes.
16:46 Speaker 01 I thought I was much better suited to a role like that. Um, but even then, I found that challenging. We're seven weeks out from the election and one day, my, my boss and I, we receive poll numbers that say we're heading south. Things are not looking good. And you know, my leader, news is allowed to me. Maybe I should step down. And you know, the panic alarm rings for me in my head. The idea that he's contemplating departure, seven weeks out from an election. Well, I actually respect that. Oh, well, I respect that he had that thought process. I did not appreciate. I respect that he had the self-awareness. Absolutely. I did not appreciate that he looked at me as the possible replacement.
17:31 Speaker 01 A week after that conversation, he came to work one day. He quit and he nominated me. And so I then found myself in the position of leading the party into an election. You knew you were going to be nominated though, right? Uh, I had a sense that he'd suggested that if anyone was going to take over, that he thought it should be me. I thought it absolutely should not. And you had done interviews saying clearly not, I'm not the one who's running. Absolutely not. Yes. And I meant it. So you didn't want it? I did not. Yes. I did not. But there's always, you know, I think everyone can identify with that idea that sometimes you can have these dueling, you know, these dueling sentiments, these dueling values.
18:12 Speaker 01 The idea, on the one hand, that lack of confidence on the other, a sense of responsibility. Uh huh. And so the moment came that he said, well, I'm nominating you and I believe you need to step up. It was just time for the sense of responsibility. And you were thirty seven? I was thirty seven, yeah. Wow. Uh, and then the election. Um, in New Zealand, we have a system a little bit similar to Germany. You don't always know on election night who has the numbers to form a government. So on election night, it was not clear cut. There was one small party that held the balance of power and they decided they would negotiate with both us and one other party. So we're in the middle of those negotiations when I start feeling a little off. Uh huh. Had you missed your period?
18:56 Speaker 01 Uh, well, there was one of the, obviously there's a number of things that suggest maybe you should think about taking a test. Yeah. I don't remember at the time them being large red flags for me. Uh huh. Uh, any large red flags, just feeling a bit off is how I would describe it. And a friend of mine, um, suggested I take a test. And so in the middle of negotiations to find out I would be, whether I would be Prime Minister, I first found out I was pregnant. Hmm. Uh, so. And you thought what? I thought you could not write this.
19:32 Speaker 01 Until you did.
19:33 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
19:33 Speaker 01 So it's, I talk a lot more about, you know, how that was a bit of a surprise because having a child had been something we had thought about, but it did not come easy to me. And so it was, it was a real surprise.
19:48 Oprah Winfrey? And just when it was gonna be the most challenging.
19:51 Speaker 01 Yeah.
19:51 Oprah Winfrey? Yes, I love, I love the way the universe set you up that way.
19:54 Speaker 01 I didn't know if I loved the universe in that moment. I think I have probably natural levels of anxiety for someone who's 37 years old and 10 weeks ago did not anticipate being in this position. And who's also pregnant.
20:10 Oprah Winfrey? Well, reading this part of the book, you're flying all over the place.
20:13 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:13 Oprah Winfrey? I mean, just imagine going to meetings with your breast pumps.
20:18 Speaker 01 Yeah.
20:18 Oprah Winfrey? You're in the back of the car with your breast pumps, tucked under your, tucked under your blouse. I mean, it's like you were superwoman pumping and speaking and having meetings and making decisions.
20:30 Speaker 01 Yeah, I, at the time.
20:32 Oprah Winfrey? Because you were determined that you were gonna breastfeed.
20:34 Speaker 01 I, I was determined, I was determined. And now, now looking back on it, I see there were lots of reasons why I was determined. I think I saw it as a part, a series of mini tests. The test of motherhood, you know, the test to prove that I was doing what I was meant to do. And, but it was, it was hard and it didn't come easy for me. And as it doesn't.
20:57 Oprah Winfrey? Breastfeeding didn't come easy.
20:57 Speaker 01 Yeah, it didn't. And, and I think I had this idea in my head that eventually it's just meant to work. But it wasn't like that. And I think it's not like that for a lot of, a lot of women.
21:09 Oprah Winfrey? Mm hmm.
21:10 Speaker 01 And one of the reasons I wanted to write about it was to just demonstrate that, you know, out there in the images that we present sometimes, it may have looked like I was Wonder Woman. It may have. But I would hate that to be the sentiment because. Yes, I was doing a lot and I was carrying a lot, but I had I had a support network. I had a village. I had an incredible partner who
21:34 Oprah Winfrey? Clark.
21:34 Speaker 01 Traveled, young, now husband, who traveled with me, who was our primary caregiver. And if anything, I'd like to put the spotlight on that because I don't think we should have an expectation that women do everything.
21:46 Oprah Winfrey? Right. We don't, we shouldn't set, certainly you did it, but you don't want to set up the expectation that
21:51 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
21:51 Oprah Winfrey? Everybody can run around with their pump in the back of the car.
21:54 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
21:54 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
21:55 Speaker 01 We should have an expectation that there's a village.
21:58 Oprah Winfrey? And not to mention, not just running around, you know, with the pump in the back of the car, breastfeeding, doing all the things that they're required
22:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
22:06 Oprah Winfrey? of a world leader, having other people, the naysayers, question whether you should even have the right to be a mother and and and also be
22:17 Speaker 01 And I think this is part of the reason, yeah, that you you you want to do it all and not be seen to break a sweat because
22:25 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
22:26 Speaker 01 you know, I was at that time only the second leader in the world to give birth in office. And so I felt a certain amount of pressure to make sure that no one could question that it that it impaired my ability to do the job. Because what would that then say to anyone else? You know, another leader, another politician.
22:47 Oprah Winfrey? That I can do this no matter what.
22:49 Speaker 01 Yeah, so hide the morning sickness. Hide the fact you can't quite walk straight after after after birth. Just make it make it look like it is entirely possible to do all of those things. And with the right support, you can. But it does require support.
23:06 Oprah Winfrey? Hmm.
23:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:07 Oprah Winfrey? I have so much to talk about with former Prime Minister of New Zealand Jacinda Ardern. Stay with us. That's all coming up next. Welcome back, listener. I am so grateful that you're here for this deeply personal conversation with Jacinda Ardern, who's looking back at her time as Prime Minister of New Zealand. You know, I have always admired the way she led her country with courage and kindness. And I'm honored to finally sit down with her. She's talking about her new book, A Different Kind of Power, and a new documentary called Prime Minister. And then you made history in, I think it was 2018, when you brought Neve
23:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
23:42 Oprah Winfrey? to the United Nations in New York. It was the first time in history a baby was brought to the floor of the UN General Assembly and the photos were seen all over the world. And you came out of that experience with a powerful message for women. First of all, that that was a different kind of power. To be able to bring your baby to the United Nations.
24:05 Speaker 01 And I didn't, I don't even, I don't particularly remember thinking about the magnitude of that moment. You know, for me, it was just pure logistics.
24:12 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
24:13 Speaker 01 Neve was four months old. I was still breastfeeding. She had to come with me. Uh, and actually, the moment when she was photographed, I mean, you can tell that we're not aware we're being photographed. That is one of the more presentable photos of me. Because we're in the floor. It was at an event to mark the legacy of Nelson Mandela. Uh, and so, uh, the, it, not, the entire floor was not full at that time. And so I didn't, the press, you couldn't see. Mm-hmm. I could just hear the clicking. Click, click, click. Click, click, click. I did not think they were aimed on us. And so, again, I think it was just a moment where you were getting on with what was required. And then afterwards, afterwards was the moment that I thought, well, I guess that was a historic moment.
24:58 Speaker 01 And if there's any message I want people to take, it's that, that there I am with my partner. Behind me is the person who made sure that we had a bassinet for Neve and a place to be in between time. My foreign policy advisor, she covered us so that we could go to the, the president's reception. You know, I had a, I had a team. And how lucky was I?
25:20 Oprah Winfrey? So when you came out of that, your message was both spoken and unspoken.
25:24 Speaker 01 Yeah. Yeah.
25:26 Oprah Winfrey? And the essence of that message was what?
25:28 Speaker 01 Yes, you can do it all, but don't do it alone. Don't expect to do it alone. Wonder Woman needed a side, deserves a sidekick too.
25:37 Oprah Winfrey? That's so powerful. That's so correct. Yes, you can do it all, but don't expect to do it alone.
25:44 Speaker 01 Because I didn't.
25:45 Oprah Winfrey? That is so clarifying.
25:47 Speaker 01 And I know how lucky I was. I was lucky. And so knowing that, you know, I remember them. I've always been interested and focused on child poverty. And I put a lot of that back to, you know, observations growing up. As a child, I had a wonderful childhood, but I observed children who didn't have what I had. And then becoming a mother and experiencing having a village, I then became focused on what about all those sole parents? What about all those women who are doing this alone? How, how do they do that? And so extending paid parental leave, increasing government support for parents raising children alone, increasing access to childcare,
26:32 Speaker 01 even giving special leave to women who experience miscarriages. All of that became part of our agenda. And that was because as a government, we really thought about what it is to be a parent in the world.
26:47 Oprah Winfrey? It's so interesting because in the book and in the documentary, we see how your now husband, Clark, really takes on the role of super dad and steps in. And there's a moment when people are protesting outside and like, where is he? And what's happened to him? And you're like, he's raising our child.
27:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
27:09 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. But what an amazing example he was for setting, you know, the stage for the world to see.
27:15 Speaker 01 And I remember, you know, we were very open about the fact that he was going to be the primary caregiver and. I remember afterwards him sharing with me that he had had a number of men who would come and almost talk to him behind a closed hand about the fact that they had been the primary caregiver too. And so the chance to spotlight that, normalize that, we will all have different seasons. And while my season was in office, his season was the opportunity to form this beautiful relationship with our daughter. And then he'll have a season and then I'll take on different roles. And for me, that's a beautiful partnership to have.
27:54 Oprah Winfrey? I love the way in a different kind of power, you talk about how you, everything in your life prepares you for, you know, stepping into this role, what you've done in the past, and you have your own agenda for things you want to accomplish while you're in office, you know, child poverty, because it's always been important to you, and mental health issues, and all the things you go in. And then there's the Christchurch mass shooting.
28:19 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:20 Oprah Winfrey? So all the things you want to accomplish and you are about the business of doing that, nothing prepares you for the horrific experience of this mass shooting.
28:33 Oprah Winfrey? So you all recall in 2019, New Zealand experienced the worst mass shooting in its history.
28:39 Speaker 01 Yeah.
28:39 Oprah Winfrey? There were 51 people
28:43 Oprah Winfrey? who were killed at a mosque and Islamic center. And your leadership after that tragedy made headlines around the world. I just, in reading about it, what was going on with you at that time, I mean, you don't even know how to think about something like that, how to process. But in that moment, everything that had ever happened to you in your life, imposter or not, you leaned into the most powerful space and you made decisions and navigated through that in such a way that showed us all what it means to step into your own power. How were you able to do that?
29:24 Speaker 01 I think in leadership sometimes we're presented with this idea that you have to fit a particular mould. And so often, parts of that mould tell you not to show emotion, not to share or show how you're feeling in any given moment. And during the aftermath of the shooting, it was almost impossible for me not to feel deeply what had happened to our Muslim community in our country. It just wouldn't have been possible to hide that for me.
29:59 Oprah Winfrey? And you immediately said, people who chose to be here, this is their country.
30:04 Speaker 01 Absolutely. The idea, and because this was the motivation of the person who undertook this attack, his entire motivation was to other members of our community.
30:18 Oprah Winfrey? Because he wanted to cause a division within...
30:21 Speaker 01 He did. He wanted to create an internal warfare. He saw New Zealand as too inclusive, too welcoming, and particularly in his mind to Muslim communities. He was not from New Zealand. He chose New Zealand for that reason. And he came to our country with the intention to try and cause division. And in my mind, I simply reflected in the aftermath the sentiment that I saw and I felt from New Zealanders, which was first and foremost, an overwhelming sense of grief, anger, that someone would come and perpetrate such violence on our Muslim community,
31:03 Speaker 01 and an utter rejection of everything he represented. I had never felt more privileged to lead than I did during that period because I saw ultimately what New Zealanders did in response to that attack and the response of our Muslim community, which was deeply humbling. So when people, particularly members of the Muslim community from around the world, comment on it, I mostly feel sadness. Shouldn't it be a given that in after experience like that, that you respond with humanity?
31:41 Oprah Winfrey? And you're talking about the fact that a lot of people from the Muslim community wrote to you saying, "Thank you. We appreciate you standing with us. We appreciate you honoring our loved ones who've passed." I mean, you know, I just thought, even how you handled the difficulty of, you know, other people's customs, because the custom of having to bury your dead immediately, and you having to figure out with yourself and the team, how do we tell this community, you're not going to be able to bury your dead right away? Because this is now a police investigation and...
32:23 Speaker 01 And these were, I mean incredibly challenging moments that only I would have understood exactly, you know, the things the community were grappling with, had I been there. And I think one of the things, one of the really important things about empathetic leadership is that you just instinctively feel like you need to be on the ground closest, in closest proximity to where the crisis has happened.
32:50 Oprah Winfrey? So you knew immediately to wrap your head?
32:52 Speaker 01 I, you know, no one told me I needed to do that. No one counseled me. Often people ask me about that decision. All I remember thinking was I'm going into the community space. They have just lost an incredible number of their family members and their loved ones. The least I can do is show respect in that moment. And so all I really remember from that moment as I packed from Wellington to get ready to go to Christchurch, was calling a friend and asking if she had a scarf I could use. No one counselled me either way. It just felt like the least I could do in that moment.
33:34 Oprah Winfrey? And then there was that famous photograph of you with the scarf, yes.
33:39 Speaker 01 And in the book, I talk a little bit about that moment because whilst, you know, a lot of the commentary was about me, when I was photographed at that time, I was listening to one of the most humbling
33:49 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
33:50 Speaker 01 experiences, which was a leader in the Muslim community, who had just watched members of his congregation been shot. And he thanked New Zealand.
34:03 Speaker 01 For me, the Muslim community led a response that humbled everyone.
34:10 Oprah Winfrey? So a different kind of power meant that you instinctively knew that the thing to do is to go to the people where the people are hurting?
34:20 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
34:21 Oprah Winfrey? And a different kind of power allowed you to embrace those people, the community, the Muslim community, in a way as though they were your own people, your own family, your own... I mean, it's like watching you and reading about you doing that. It's like you were a part of that community at that time.
34:44 Speaker 01 I think in leadership, particularly in these times, there's a tendency, at least to be provided with advice, to avoid unpredictable situations. And there is often nothing more unpredictable than periods of crisis, but particularly with these crisis and grief, understandably.
35:02 Oprah Winfrey? But I have to tell you, I mean, when I was watching that on the news, I was so moved by your authenticity and your sincerity because, you know, things happen in the world, there's a crisis, there's a shooting, there's a bombing. And leaders, they show up, they do their little drive-through and run-through and have their speech. But you were in it, you were in the centre of it.
35:26 Speaker 01 And I think only by being in it, and for me in hindsight, you know, taking a bit of time to reflect, you know, I think the important thing about proximity is it allows you to then understand what's needed. Empathy is nothing without action.
35:39 Oprah Winfrey? You were in it with people crying on your shoulders, literally, in your bosom, yes.
35:43 Speaker 01 And hearing then in those moments what people needed. They'd lost, in many cases, their breadwinner that they may have had in that time.
35:54 Speaker 01 You know, a lack of sense of security around their ability to continue to reside in New Zealand. There are a whole range of issues that by having that proximity, you understood. And true empathy is then actually following through with action. Now that you've seen it, now that you've heard it, what will you do about it? We are here just 26 days after the most devastating of terrorist attacks in New Zealand's history. When I visited the hospitals and the victims, none of them had just one gunshot wound. In every case, they spoke of multiple injuries, multiple debilitating injuries.
36:33 Speaker 01 I could not fathom how weapons that could cause such destruction and large-scale death could have been obtained legally in this country.
36:46 Oprah Winfrey? You and your administration reformed New Zealand's gun laws in 10 days. And in reading the book, I now, I can see that you were fueled by, your passion came from being amongst the community and feeling their loss in such a personal and powerful way. How did you make that happen so quickly?
37:12 Speaker 01 In my mind, one of the beautiful things about New Zealand and New Zealand is such a pragmatic people. And every time you see crisis in New Zealand, whether or not it's a, you know, a weather event, or in this case, alongside the care and support you see the community provide, there's that, now what can we do? And that is reflected then in an expectation of leaders, what will you do?
37:36 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
37:37 Speaker 01 And there were two things. One was, well, first of all, we know that he was able to take the lives of so many because he had access to military-style semi-automatic weapons, particularly AR-15s. And then it begged the question, well... How was he able to get access to those? And the answer was legally. And I remember in that briefing, which was only the day after the shooting, when I received that briefing and was told, he legally obtained those weapons. You know, my immediate instinct was, well, that can't stand. And I had that strong sense that even though I had to consult with other members of parliament to get their support, I just had a sense that New Zealanders would want that to change. And so when I went down to
38:21 Oprah Winfrey? But he wasn't even from New Zealand.
38:23 Speaker 01 He wasn't. He was from Australia. And there's, you know, there's a range of things that make things a bit easier when you're from the closeness of our relationship. But we had, he was able to legally obtain those weapons. And I think that was, that was a shock to New Zealanders that you could so easily access weapons that were able to take the lives of so many so quickly.
38:46 Oprah Winfrey? Because one of the things you talk about here is when you went and visited people in the hospital, nobody had one gunshot wound.
38:52 Speaker 01 Nobody.
38:53 Oprah Winfrey? Nobody had.
38:54 Speaker 01 Just the range of injuries and the scale of injuries. And so I just instinctively knew, and I think MPs knew, that New Zealanders would be behind them. And they, they were. When they cast the vote, 119 of 120 members of parliament supported the banning of military-style semi-automatic weapons in New Zealand. And so when we passed that law, we bought them back. So people who had them, we paid for them and then we destroyed them.
39:25 Oprah Winfrey? Well, what do you say that people say, well, you, you didn't get rid of all of them?
39:29 Speaker 01 You know, in, in our minds, of course, understanding that New Zealand, you know, we are hunters, we have pests. There's a number of reasons why people hold guns. But weapons like that.
39:43 Speaker 01 They're designed to take the lives of a large number of people in quick order. And in this case, they did. And yes, you know, we still have weapons in New Zealand, but we do not routinely now have these ones. And that was, I think, an incredibly important response to this attack.
40:02 Oprah Winfrey? Well, as we were talking, no one had any expectation that you would end up in your administration during your time there, serving as Prime Minister, as the worst mass killing ever in the history of New Zealand. Also, nobody expected the pandemic.
40:19 Speaker 01 No.
40:19 Oprah Winfrey? And during the pandemic, some called your COVID policy one of your greatest political legacies, but there were also blistering critics and criticisms for it. And even people marching outside your office and death threats. You talk a lot about it here. We get inside your head. But can you briefly, for our audience, describe what grappling with that experience was like? Because in the beginning, we were looking at you all, you only had like six cases in the beginning.
40:53 Speaker 01 Yeah.
40:54 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, we're like.
40:55 Speaker 01 I guess everyone started with a small number. And that was one of the things when we looked out into the world, because we were later in receiving COVID. It took a little longer to get to our shores. Our first case was the 28th of February in 2020. So we could see what was happening. And we also knew from modeling what it would mean for our population. Tens of thousands of people losing their lives. And I remember being presented with that as a leader. I talk a little bit in the book about how there's so few decisions where you can draw that direct line between your decision and life and death. But a pandemic is one of them.
41:36 Speaker 01 And one of the things that we decided to do really early on was just share everything we knew about this illness.
41:42 Oprah Winfrey? To be completely transparent.
41:43 Speaker 01 Just to be transparent, but also everything we didn't know. And as a result of that, you know, when it came to the point that we made the decision that actually we need to close our borders and see if we can try and keep New Zealand COVID free till we have another way of protecting people.
41:56 Oprah Winfrey? Well, that's just one sentence you're using to describe this, but it was a process.
42:00 Speaker 01 It was a big process. It moved quickly, but it was a process.
42:03 Oprah Winfrey? How do we stop this?
42:06 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:06 Oprah Winfrey? We need to close our borders.
42:09 Speaker 01 But by sharing all of that. You know, New Zealanders could see not only the decisions we were making, but the choices we had. And I think that made a difference in people, you know, supporting the course of action.
42:23 Oprah Winfrey? And accepting it.
42:25 Speaker 01 Yeah.
42:25 Oprah Winfrey? Certainly in the beginning.
42:26 Speaker 01 In the beginning. And look, there is no question. You know, I look around the world. It was an incredibly difficult thing to govern through.
42:36 Oprah Winfrey? So how do you describe this last week?
42:40 Speaker 01 If there is like a subterranean space that sits beneath hell,
42:47 Speaker 01 that. You know, no response was perfect.
42:51 Oprah Winfrey? Mm hmm.
42:52 Speaker 01 Populations around the world would have reflections on what they believed their governments did right and what they did wrong. And after the pandemic, we put in place a royal commission, people to go and ask those questions for us. Look at how we can be better prepared next time.
43:08 Oprah Winfrey? But I think the issue that you described so beautifully here, and you can describe it beautifully because now you've had time to sit with it.
43:15 Speaker 01 Yes.
43:16 Oprah Winfrey? Very well written, I must say, too.
43:17 Speaker 01 Thank you, because that one I rewrote and rewrote and rewrote because I was, I was processing it. You know, I came out of COVID and it was a, I had two goals and I've talked about this a bit. One was to save people's lives, but the other was to keep people together. And I didn't achieve both. I found that so hard. I still find it hard.
43:36 Oprah Winfrey? But you save people's lives so that if they want to eventually get together, they can.
43:40 Speaker 01 Yes, exactly, exactly. And so, you know, it's hard to feel upset about that. I don't, you know, and when people say, what do you regret? I find that really simplistic because.
43:48 Oprah Winfrey? When people started to turn on you, though, Jacinda, when people started to turn, listen, I've had people turn on me. I've heard the vitriol from the web. I've had the, you know, the lies, the stories, the conspiracy theories made up. It is so disorienting.
44:06 Speaker 01 It is.
44:06 Oprah Winfrey? It is so.
44:09 Oprah Winfrey? It just, it shakes your foundation because you're like, I don't even recognize who you're talking about.
44:14 Speaker 01 I absolutely agree with you. And it's one of those things that you then realize how much through your life, you rely on the ability to still just communicate with someone.
44:22 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
44:22 Speaker 01 And that if you can at least talk to them and you can have that dialogue, then if there is that, you know, that bizarre view that someone might have, that conspiracy theory that you think you might be able to talk that through.
44:33 Oprah Winfrey? You are, you are, you are.
44:34 Speaker 01 But you can't.
44:35 Oprah Winfrey? You are losing sleep at night. You need sleeping pills in order to get to sleep because you were trying to make the best decision
44:41 Speaker 01 Yeah.
44:41 Oprah Winfrey? for the masses.
44:44 Speaker 01 Yeah. I just don't understand how anyone could assume that I'm so cavalier about having a hog city and over a million people in lockdown. Of course, I think about it all the time. I have to take sleeping pills so I don't think about it all the time.
45:01 Oprah Winfrey? And then you get accused of, oh, it's just a power play.
45:05 Speaker 01 Yeah.
45:05 Oprah Winfrey? You're ego tripping. You're taking advantage of other people's lives. You're trying to ruin the economy on purpose. I mean, it's, it's.
45:13 Speaker 01 And so the only thing that you can, you know, it took me a while to get to this, but the only thing that you can hold on to in those moments is that you know what your motivation is. You know that
45:24 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
45:25 Speaker 01 you're just trying to make the right decisions. And even, I think, I remember my hardest moments looking out when we did have an occupation on Parliament's grounds and thinking, well, they think they're protecting people's lives too. And so do I. We actually want for the same things. We have just come at it from completely different corners. And I do spend a lot of time reflecting on it. But I still give myself as much grace as I can that we were motivated by the right things and that was to save people's lives. For all the thinking I give to what I would have done differently, I would still rather be sitting in front of the public and explaining why perhaps we did too much. Rather than why we did too little.
46:07 Speaker 01 Because the doing too little was the difference between people living and people dying.
46:14 Oprah Winfrey? Do you think too, you were talking about being completely transparent, which is another, you're another way of you offering a different kind of power. Completely transparent, letting people know, and now this is what is happening. This was, but I think what people weren't prepared for, okay, we locked down, we have isolated ourselves, we shut the borders, now we're gonna open up, we're celebrating, there's a big celebration. And after that, oh, now we have to lock ourselves down again because now there's a different variant. I think people just got wary of the, now there's a different variant.
46:49 Speaker 01 It was hard, absolutely.
46:50 Oprah Winfrey? And there's another variant, and there's another variant, yeah.
46:52 Speaker 01 So we would only, we would use lockdowns when there were cases that we couldn't trace. So that's when we would use it. And ultimately, it meant that we had fewer days in lockdown than most countries. And when we were out, we had relative normality.
47:07 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
47:08 Speaker 01 And I think importantly, we saved an estimated 20,000 lives. But it came at a cost, you know, for everyone globally. I think there is globally now this, this unease that the way that we'd experienced the world was upended. Suddenly you could have something that you just didn't see coming and it can fundamentally change your life in an instant. And we already have such a sense of uncertainty in the world. Technological developments, the impact of, you know, the changing economies that we have, the multiple wars raging. We have a sense of insecurity that the pandemic just exacerbated so much.
47:50 Speaker 01 And I think as leaders, and this is one of the things I, I talk about a lot, we have options in this environment now. We have the option of actually tackling the core of the difficult problems we have presented to us, which is hard. Or we have the option of blaming others, of saying that the cause of the insecurity you feel, or the financial insecurity you feel, is this group or this group. And that is a quick and easy way to do politics and cite fear. It's the oldest trick in the book, but it is the most harmful and the most damaging. And I talk openly about the alternatives because they exist. There are leaders who champion empathetic leadership, who actually want to solve the problems.
48:34 Speaker 01 But what we see as spotlight more often is that alternative. And I wish so much that we can turn towards those more optimistic, hopeful and inclusive responses to problems, rather than the fear that we see people reach to.
48:50 Oprah Winfrey? Do you wish you were back in it so that you could offer these optimistic and hopeful?
48:54 Speaker 01 There are other politicians, there are politicians out there and leaders out there who believe in solving those core fundamental problems, rather than politicking around them. I see it, I see it, I've met them. I run a fellowship program called Field to support that.
49:10 Oprah Winfrey? Who do you most admire right now who's doing that? Who's modeling that different kind of power?
49:15 Speaker 01 I see it at lots of different levels. I see it in leadership. I think the president of Mexico at the moment is so genuinely focused on the wellbeing of her people through difficult times. I see it in lots of places, but I see it at, you know, new incoming MPs, MEPs. We need to shine a light on them. Because I think people are losing their hope in politics. And yet there are people that they should feel hopeful about.
49:40 Oprah Winfrey? Okay, I asked this of Jimmy Carter once. When you have the weight of the entire country on your shoulders, and you did in several instances, the weight of the entire country, and just in general, as prime minister, the weight of the entire country on your shoulders, what is your prayer?
50:00 Speaker 01 I had certain mantras that would run through my head. And the one that was most common was just, let this be the right decision, it's be the right decision. And that didn't always mean the most popular decision. I could carry the weight of an unpopular decision if it felt like it was the right one. I could wear a lot if it felt like the right one. But just let it be the right thing to do. You know, one of the strengths of all of those things that I thought would hold me back of a little bit of, you know, that self doubt was actually I would prepare. I would bring in experts.
50:43 Speaker 01 I would use it, people who had the knowledge and expertise to give me the best possible advice. I would read everything I could about a challenge that was presenting itself. And then I would overlay my values and my intuition.
50:56 Oprah Winfrey? You knew as much about COVID as the doctors did because you were studying it every night. Yes.
51:00 Speaker 01 I was mocked for that in some cases by the people I worked with. This is sitting between me and going to sleep now, this and you. So. And so for me, that idea of the right decision was never just about instinct and values. It was also about.
51:17 Oprah Winfrey? Having the right information?
51:18 Speaker 01 Having the right information. And, you know, that trait, that trait of imposter syndrome drove me to lead like that. That was a strength in the end. That was a strength.
51:30 Oprah Winfrey? Isn't that amazing? How that works out in your life? The things it was your weakness became your strength.
51:36 Speaker 01 Absolutely.
51:37 Oprah Winfrey? Because you did question whether or not they're going to question, I should be here. I'm going to make sure that I do everything exactly.
51:44 Speaker 01 And have the humility to know that you don't know all the answers and to bring in the people who might and to draw on that expertise.
51:50 Oprah Winfrey? That's a different kind of power to have that humility.
51:52 Speaker 01 And to say from time to time, I don't know. Because it's very different than I don't have a plan. And you can lead and be open about what you know and what you don't. And actually it can build trust. FDR was that kind of leader and he communicated so directly to people during crisis, during the depression and war times, what he knew and what he didn't know. And I think people built trust around him as a result.
52:19 Oprah Winfrey? Who were other leaders you've admired?
52:21 Speaker 01 Well, I think, you know, when I look at the United States, I look at times of crisis. I mean, I do draw back to FDR because there was an empathy to him. And maybe that came from personal circumstance, but it manifested in the way that he did the job. In New Zealand, we have similar political leaders. I remember as a. Child, our cat, was named Norm. And my father named him after a Prime Minister, Norman Kirk. And as I grew older, I read a little bit more about him. And he was asked in a primetime interview once, you know, what, you know, his greatest achievement is such an, you know, an entree into spouting off whatever policy as a politician you might have.
53:05 Speaker 01 He said the letters that he received after they increased benefits for the most vulnerable. One letter where a woman said she could finally afford shoes. New shoes and what a relief it was to hear. And here was this moment with this Prime Minister.
53:25 Speaker 01 Huge stature. He was a solid, a solid man with such presence, but speaking so softly and quietly about a woman.
53:33 Oprah Winfrey? Being able to now afford.
53:34 Speaker 01 Shoes.
53:35 Oprah Winfrey? New shoes.
53:36 Speaker 01 And it just stayed with me, the fact that he was someone running a country. And an individual moment could be so meaningful to him. So I've been surrounded by great examples and perhaps it started with my parents.
53:49 Oprah Winfrey? I love the fact that, or appreciate the fact that when you were going through your most challenging crises, that you looked to people who was at Shackelford, who'd been through the Antarctic.
54:01 Speaker 01 Yes.
54:02 Oprah Winfrey? Yes, I love those Antarctic.
54:04 Speaker 01 Amazing.
54:05 Oprah Winfrey? Stories, isn't that incredible?
54:06 Speaker 01 Amazing.
54:07 Oprah Winfrey? What he was able to do and that in the end.
54:09 Speaker 01 Yeah.
54:10 Oprah Winfrey? He wanted to just save his men.
54:11 Speaker 01 You know, when you're in politics, people always expect you to spout off all of these, your political role models. But mine is an Antarctic explorer. You know, who actually failed multiple times.
54:26 Oprah Winfrey? He didn't get there.
54:27 Speaker 01 He did not get there.
54:28 Oprah Winfrey? But he saved his men.
54:29 Speaker 01 He saved his men and he had such a humility in his leadership as well. And he had the saying that I love.
54:35 Oprah Winfrey? We're talking about Ernest Shackleton, the explorer who led expeditions to the Antarctic. Who is a hero of yours and of mine too. And you have a mug with one of his quotes, what does it say?
54:46 Speaker 01 It says optimism is true moral courage. And I think there are so many reasons that resonates with me. And one is that I think we treat hope and optimism often as if they're naive.
55:01 Speaker 01 And yet, the way that he talks about optimism is that actually it's a courageous act and it's a deliberate decision.
55:10 Speaker 01 And in the circumstances that he was in, when he's quoting lines like this, he was basically stranded in Antarctica with no hope of rescue, a sunken ship.
55:21 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. You just knew those men were gonna die.
55:24 Speaker 01 Oh, yeah, well, and yet, in that moment, what a courageous act it is to be optimistic.
55:29 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
55:30 Speaker 01 And without that, you know, it would have impacted, I think, their survival. It would have.
55:34 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
55:34 Speaker 01 And so.
55:35 Oprah Winfrey? At another time, you all can read that story.
55:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
55:38 Oprah Winfrey? It's a great story.
55:38 Speaker 01 But don't let anyone tell you naive if you're optimistic.
55:42 Oprah Winfrey? Well, two years ago, I watched along with millions when you stepped to the podium to announce your resignation.
55:50 Speaker 01 And so today, I'm announcing that I will not be seeking reelection.
55:54 Oprah Winfrey? Whoa, what a shock that was. I was so struck, actually, by a few things you said. The thing that got me the most was when you said, I no longer had enough in the tank.
56:08 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:09 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, to lead.
56:11 Speaker 01 I know what this job takes. And I know that I no longer have enough in the tank to do it justice. It's that simple.
56:19 Oprah Winfrey? And that you just knew it was time to step down.
56:24 Speaker 01 Politicians are human. We give all that we can for as long as we can. And then it's time. And for me, it's time.
56:34 Oprah Winfrey? I understand that feeling because, you know, I had a talk show in the United States for 25 years and it just came to me that I knew it was time to go.
56:42 Speaker 01 Yeah.
56:43 Oprah Winfrey? But it's so rare to find other people. I mean, a talk show is not like running a nation as you were doing. And when did that feeling start to occur to you? Was it that you got worn down by COVID and all the COVID vaccine objectors?
57:00 Speaker 01 I mean, the point at which I made the decision was a good year after any of that. And there was nothing particularly occurring at the time.
57:09 Oprah Winfrey? That was what was so great about it.
57:11 Speaker 01 Yeah, as a trigger.
57:12 Oprah Winfrey? Because it's not like she's stepping down because of COVID or she's stepping down because it's too overwhelming or she's stepping down.
57:17 Speaker 01 No.
57:17 Oprah Winfrey? It's that.
57:18 Speaker 01 There was no moment, there was no thing. And in fact, I knew, I knew when I came to make the announcement that people would. Would wonder.
57:25 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
57:26 Speaker 01 What what is the one thing? And there was no one thing in fact, like, sometimes.
57:31 Oprah Winfrey? It wasn't one thing, it was everything.
57:33 Speaker 01 It was it was a range of different um, a range of different trigger points, all of which for me pointed to, am I still the leader I believe I need to be in order to do this job well? So I felt like I was becoming a bit more defensive than I wanted to be.
57:50 Oprah Winfrey? Oh, my God.
57:50 Speaker 01 I felt.
57:51 Oprah Winfrey? That takes a different kind of power. Do you know what it takes to be to have the level of self-awareness to say, I don't know.
58:01 Speaker 01 Yeah.
58:02 Oprah Winfrey? If I still have it.
58:03 Speaker 01 Yeah. I thought everyone ran through that in their mind from time to time. Um, but certainly.
58:10 Oprah Winfrey? People may run through it, but they keep going anyway. Because they don't want to give up, they don't want to give up the perception of power. I mean, look at, look at what's happening in our halls of Congress now. People don't speak up because they don't want to be primary. They don't want to lose what they perceive as the real power in their life.
58:27 Speaker 01 Or perhaps in some cases, they feel a responsibility to stay. And that is real. I, you know, I know that to be true because when I talked to a very small group, because I could only talk to a small group about the fact I was considering stepping down. One of the things that was raised, well, we have an election. You know, there are people that are relying on you. And I felt that weight of responsibility so, so acutely.
58:53 Oprah Winfrey? Mm hmm.
58:54 Speaker 01 But actually, that was also the thing that, that helped me make the decision. If I knew that perhaps I didn't have in reserve what was required for crisis and I'd seen enough of them to know what you required. And if I felt that I was becoming more defensive and maybe that my curiosity wasn't what it used to be, uh, those were signs that it would be irresponsible to stay.
59:18 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
59:19 Speaker 01 And as soon as I gave myself. The permission to think about it like that, that was when I made the call. Yeah.
59:31 Oprah Winfrey? Wow. And how did you prepare for that? How did you prepare to make the announcement? But once you've made the decision,
59:37 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:37 Oprah Winfrey? it's done.
59:38 Speaker 01 Yeah.
59:39 Oprah Winfrey? And it's about how are you gonna tell people?
59:40 Speaker 01 And I tried to write about the decision and you can see it's a very iterative thing.
59:45 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
59:46 Speaker 01 And that's because I think that's reality.
59:48 Oprah Winfrey? I can tell you actually wrote this book.
59:49 Speaker 01 Yeah. Thank you. I don't know, actually, you know, it was therapy with a deadline. So it ended up helping in lots of ways. But writing about the act of leaving, you know, it was. It was a series of conversations. It was a theories of thoughts and moments that culminated in the decision. And once I made the decision, then it just came. It was then just about telling people. And I was.
1:00:15 Oprah Winfrey? You were ready.
1:00:16 Speaker 01 I was ready, but I was also afraid.
1:00:20 Oprah Winfrey? Well, were you afraid of their judgment? Their criticism?
1:00:23 Speaker 01 Yeah, I think when you're in politics, you're trained. You spend years being acutely aware of whatever one thinks. And it's part of your job. I didn't want to let people down. I didn't want to disappoint people.
1:00:40 Speaker 01 And so walking away, yeah, it felt like it was a lonely decision and it was a hard decision. But I've never regretted it and I've never felt like it was the wrong one.
1:00:48 Oprah Winfrey? I was thinking this when I was reading. Did you get out of politics because of the politics of the politics?
1:00:53 Speaker 01 That has always been my least favorite part. I mean, that sounds so silly. My least favorite part of politics is politics. You know, I was always attracted to it because of what you could do.
1:01:03 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, of the service.
1:01:04 Speaker 01 If you want to, if you, you know, if you're one of those idealistic young people who wants to change the world, what better place than politics? It's incredible what you can do with it. And I still believe in it now, more so than even when I went in. But the day to day of it is difficult because that's what you have to do in spite of why you're motivated to be there. And I know I'm not alone in that. There are people who love the sport. And there are people who just love what you can do.
1:01:33 Oprah Winfrey? Mm hmm. Tell me, how do you go from the velocity, I think is the word that Michelle Obama used in her book Becoming, the velocity of her days? I mean, she says, you know, you don't remember where you've been, you don't remember who you've met many times because you're meeting so many people, just the velocity of life, the day to day. How do you go from that to now, you're taking care of me, you're in the house, you're making dinner, you're having like a normal life without people standing outside waiting for answers for everything?
1:02:08 Speaker 01 Well, two things. I mean, the great-
1:02:09 Oprah Winfrey? Full speed to slow speed.
1:02:11 Speaker 01 The great thing about, you know, running a country like New Zealand is that it's small and so you do get to maintain lots of normal things. You can, you know, you're supermarket shopping and you're from time to time a drop off for Neve. I could still do that from time to time. But you're right, the pace, the pace of life suddenly turns off like a tap. But even though the expectation wasn't there anymore, it didn't really change the way I behaved. And so I probably now have an issue now that the book is finished because for a while that was-
1:02:45 Oprah Winfrey? That was what you were doing.
1:02:46 Speaker 01 At nighttime, I would write, you know, a spare waking moment, I would, I would write. And it's only now after two years that I'm, I'm sitting still for a bit and I can tell you, my husband doesn't like it.
1:02:57 Oprah Winfrey? He doesn't?
1:03:00 Speaker 01 No, I don't think he thinks it suits my personality particularly.
1:03:04 Oprah Winfrey? Well, I think he did a good job filming the documentary. He did a good-
1:03:07 Speaker 01 And I think he, only he could have, really. You know, he's a broadcaster and so when suddenly I become leader of my party, he just picked up his phone and started filming me and you can, you can see in the film, I'm not always happy about that.
1:03:23 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, I can see.
1:03:23 Speaker 01 And, you know, not with a great plan in mind, he just thought it was a moment in history to capture. And for me, it was a chance to humanize leadership in a moment in time when I think we could all benefit from humanizing one another.
1:03:42 Oprah Winfrey? Well, you said that at a speech at Harvard
1:03:44 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:03:44 Oprah Winfrey? in 2023, you said that now is the time that we need to rehumanize one another.
1:03:51 Speaker 01 We've got a hyper-partisanship now that I think can be really damaging. It means we don't work together as much. It means we don't listen and engage in respectful debate that we need. And if we are to get back to doing all of those things, because we won't solve the climate crisis unless we do, we won't solve the conflict in the Middle East unless we do, we have to rehumanize one another again.
1:04:12 Oprah Winfrey? I think that's what's missing in this discourse that everybody's having with the vitriol and the spewing of the hatred is that people have been so dehumanized.
1:04:23 Speaker 01 After the attack in New Zealand on March 15, one of the things I became really interested in was how do we get to a place where individuals are radicalized to harm and to violence? I wanted to understand how that could happen in our world. And one of the precursors to that, certainly in the academic writing, is this idea of binary thinking, putting people into groups of good and evil. And the moment that you can put people into those classifications and the moment you dehumanize them, that is when you see the that's when you see acts of terrorism, that's when you see acts of violence.
1:05:00 Oprah Winfrey? Absolutely.
1:05:01 Speaker 01 And so I do, I think it's incredibly important that we find ways to remember our shared humanity. And if anything, that March 15 taught me was that we have that in us. We have that in us. But there are so many things that make that more difficult in this modern age. Now, I cannot determine what will define my time in this place, but I do hope I've demonstrated something else entirely, that you can be anxious, sensitive, kind, and wear your hat on your sleeve. You can be a mother or not. You can be all of these things. And not only can you be here, you can lead just like me.
1:05:47 Oprah Winfrey? Since you left office, I know that one of your big passions is a group that you founded called Fellowship for Empathetic Leadership.
1:05:55 Speaker 01 Yeah.
1:05:56 Oprah Winfrey? You call it Field.
1:05:57 Speaker 01 Mm-hmm.
1:05:58 Oprah Winfrey? What is that? And what is your intention for it?
1:06:01 Speaker 01 You know, when I, after I left office, I never particularly saw myself moving into the space of talking about leadership. I thought, there are people who have studied this. It's their life's work. You know, just because I've been a leader doesn't mean I'm an expert in it. But, you know, when I sat down and worked through, what would have made a difference for me as a leader? Having that network of others who understand what it is to be in politics and to be leading empathetically and with a particular view of leadership. It would have made a real difference to me to have a network of others who are doing the same. And I know, as I've talked about, that there are leaders out there who are leading in that way and may benefit from having that network. And so I started Field. It's a year-long fellowship program for people who are working in and around politics
1:06:46 Speaker 01 who believe in empathetic leadership. To just support them in their endeavors, just provide that network to help them keep going. And also to demonstrate that it is a successful way to lead and that there is support for that way to lead from voters, from the public, for the people that we serve.
1:07:05 Oprah Winfrey? Hmm. When you finished your manuscript and you sent it off to the publisher, was there a sense of release and also a deeper understanding of what you'd been through, having put yourself through the process of defining for yourself and now for the world, what a different kind of power it looks like?
1:07:30 Speaker 01 I remember feeling that after, I read it aloud several times. I guess that probably sounds like a really strange thing to do.
1:07:37 Oprah Winfrey? I think every author should.
1:07:39 Speaker 01 I read it aloud several times, probably because, you know, I'm not an author. I'm a, I was a, I considered myself a speechwriter. I would write all my major speeches.
1:07:47 Oprah Winfrey? And you were a speaker because you were on the debate team?
1:07:49 Speaker 01 Yes, I was.
1:07:50 Oprah Winfrey? I was on the debate team.
1:07:51 Speaker 01 I mean, surprise, I was on the debate team. Shocking as I know that will be for people. And so my training, I think, was with speechwriting. And so I would always read a speech aloud. And so I thought, I'm going to do that with the book. I read it aloud several times. It was after I recorded the audiobook. That I remember standing back from it and thinking, you know, that is, that is the best that I could have done.
1:08:18 Oprah Winfrey? Mm.
1:08:18 Speaker 01 And I think actually that's how I felt after I left office. I did my best. And I think when you're someone who does suffer from a confidence gap, that in itself is actually a pretty, is a pretty significant achievement to say, actually, I know I did my best.
1:08:35 Oprah Winfrey? Well, that's all the universe requires of us. And now I'm so, I really am so delighted and pleased that you decided to put it into words so that we all get to experience it. And we all get, I think what this book does is gives us an opportunity to look at what a different kind of power looks like within our own lives. And I thank you for that.
1:08:58 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:08:59 Oprah Winfrey? I have, I have to tell you, I have been an admirer of yours from afar, as I said earlier, and it's so wonderful to be up close and still have that same admiration. Because you know, people say, don't meet your heroes. I'm so glad I met my hero today.
1:09:16 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:09:17 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you.
1:09:17 Speaker 01 And please come back to New Zealand.
1:09:19 Oprah Winfrey? I.
1:09:19 Speaker 01 There's a lot of people wanting to hike with you.
1:09:22 Oprah Winfrey? I will do that. Thank you, the right honourable Dame Jacinda Ardern for being with us today. And A Different Kind of Power is available wherever books are sold. And Jacinda reads the audiobook. And as you just heard her say, when she finished, she said, that's the best she could do. Really, thank you.
1:09:43 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:09:44 Oprah Winfrey? You're one of those women that makes me proud to spell my name, W O M A N. Thank you.
1:09:49 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:09:49 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you.
1:09:50 Speaker 01 Thank you.
1:09:51 Oprah Winfrey? You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
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