Quiet Quitting: Why Women Are Emotionally Checking Out of Their Marriage

BUY THE BOOKS! The Balancing Act https://amzn.to/4gebmh5 by Nedra Glover Tawwab Secure Love https://amzn.to/3TzxObT by Julia Menanno Last fall, an article in The Cut entitled “The Women Quietly Quitting Their Husbands” went viral, putting words to something many women around the country have been quietly experiencing. The article focused on the phenomena of women in their 40’s who have emotionally detached from their marriages but have chosen to stay rather than go through the drama, expense and ordeal of a divorce. In this episode Oprah sits down with Monica Corcoran Harel the journalist who wrote the article, Nedra Glover Tawwab author of The Balancing Act and Julie Menanno author of Secure Love to discuss why many women are choosing to stay in their marriages despite being unhappy or unfulfilled. We also hear from several women who say they have “quietly quit” their marriages and want to know how to navigate their relationships despite feeling disconnected from their husbands. Chapters: 00:00:00 - Oprah & quiet quitting marriage 00:02:50 - Article author Monica Corcoran Harel joins 00:06:45 - Why this resonates with women 00:08:28 - The main question you are asking in your marriage 00:10:30 - Handey on quietly quitting 00:14:30 - Do we want more? 00:19:20 - Kesha on quietly quitting 00:22:30 - Relationship burnout 00:25:00 - Does staying hurt the children? 00:28:25 - Exhausted by the mental load 00:30:20 - Challenge for women in mid-life 00:31:00 - Why we withdraw? 00:35:20 - How husbands feel 00:39:10 - Emotional validation Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Modern women, millennial women, are quietly quitting their marriages.

• 0:05Speaker 01

  These women are staying in marriages when they actually could leave?

• 0:09Oprah Winfrey?

  So why did this concept resonate with so many women?

• 0:13Speaker 02

  The term quietly quitting gave people a voice to what they were already experiencing.

• 0:18Speaker 03

  The mental load of managing the house and being the CEO of the kids. I feel like I'm treated like I'm Google.

• 0:25Oprah Winfrey?

  You're speaking for a lot of women right now. As you're saying this, I'm thinking, all the women are saying, aren't we managing everything? Yeah, for the longest time, I was like, do you even like me? Wow. I'm getting emotional.

• 0:35Speaker 01

  Women in midlife are saying to their husbands, you haven't changed, and I'm evolving. You're not growing, so this relationship's not growing. They're stuck in stasis, and the women are ready for their second act.

• 0:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Look at all the amens.

• 0:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Hello there, and welcome to the Oprah Podcast. I'm so glad to be with you all. So last fall, maybe you saw this article, or your friend, or your sister, may have forwarded it to you. This was, everybody was forwarding this article, everybody else. It was called, "The Women Quietly Quitting Their Husbands." It was in New York Magazine's "The Cut." And it just ricocheted across the internet, hitting a real nerve for many women. It was about women who are over the age of 40, who instead of going through the drama, the expense, and the ordeal of divorce,

• 1:35Oprah Winfrey?

  have started to just walk away, back away emotionally, but did stay in their marriages. They quietly quit their husbands. And I remember reading this and thinking, I know a lot of women who are doing this. Watch this.

• 1:51Speaker 01

  "Women are quietly quitting their marriages." That's the headline of the big cut article that's got everybody talking.

• 1:58Speaker 04

  So I just learned about quietly quitting your marriage. That is a new term to me. But I do understand it, because there is a, something significant that is happening once women turn 40 and up, that they're like, enough is enough.

• 2:13Speaker 01

  Did you see that article about women quietly quitting their husbands? So instead of getting a divorce, they're just emotionally checking out of the marriage and keeping the rest of their life intact? It is genuinely shocking how many men are so passive and just self-consumed that they don't even register when she has totally withdrawn.

• 2:32Speaker 05

  I've seen a lot of talk on this app about women of a certain age who are quietly quitting their marriages. They're staying married, but basically, they're like, forget you, I'm doing me.

• 2:42Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, that's the summary. Monica Corcoran-Harel is the journalist who wrote that article for "The Cut." Monica's here. Where did the idea come from?

• 2:53Speaker 01

  It was so interesting. I was on a call with my editor, and she said, we're doing a package on midlife divorce. Do you have any ideas, like, people fighting over custody, or how you preserve your money? And I actually whispered to her, what about women who are divorced but not divorced? And she said, what are you talking about? They're secretly filing for divorce? And I said, no. They're acting like they're divorced, but they're staying married. Because I had heard women, you know, I'd go out for a girls' night, and nobody was in a rush to get home, or women were saying, I'm going away on vacation. And I'd say, what about your husband? He's not coming. Or I just found that husbands weren't coming up as often in conversation. And I realized, these couples were, almost like it reminded me of toddlers

• 3:38Speaker 01

  when they're in parallel play. They're playing with toys next to each other, but they're not engaging.

• 3:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. And you wrote about this. I was so struck in the article when you wrote that your mother didn't speak to your father for a year, and he didn't notice.

• 3:53Speaker 01

  It's so shocking. And I was a kid, and I remember sitting at the dinner table, and my mom would nudge me past the salt. My mom uses a lot of salt. Her blood pressure is through the roof.

• 4:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 4:03Speaker 01

  And I was like 10 years old, and I would pass it to her. And I understood that something was going on, that they weren't getting along. But I didn't realize that they hadn't talked in so long.

• 4:12Oprah Winfrey?

  And she would ask, would ask your father if he wants his shirts to go to the cleaners?

• 4:16Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:16Oprah Winfrey?

  And you would ask your father, and then he would give you the shirts and never think anything of it?

• 4:20Speaker 01

  You know, I was 10 years old, but I recently talked to her about it. And she said, after a year, my dad said, is something wrong? He hadn't even noticed.

• 4:29Oprah Winfrey?

  The other thing that struck me in that article, you said that you could see the rage in your mother's narrowed eyes, and her gazing at him sometimes from behind, and you could feel it in her chicken cacciatore.

• 4:42Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 4:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes. What did you mean by that?

• 4:45Speaker 01

  I just knew she was angry. I mean, as a kid, you can pick up on emotions.

• 4:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 4:50Speaker 01

  It's interesting. I talked to her the other night, and she said, you know, I was hurt, and then the hurt turned to hate.

• 4:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow.

• 4:56Speaker 01

  So I probably missed out on the hurt. Maybe I didn't recognize that, but I definitely saw the hate.

• 5:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, or certainly resentment.

• 5:03Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 5:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Certainly resentment. Well, the reason the cacciatore line struck me so is that it reminded me, and I think everyone who read that article, that even when you think you're hiding it, it comes through in other ways. You know, you felt it, but you didn't know what you were feeling. So what has been the reaction from readers?

• 5:23Speaker 01

  The reaction has been very emotional.

• 5:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Reaction has been, we're doing this podcast about it.

• 5:28Speaker 01

  Yes, exactly. I still get messages from women every day. In fact, I just heard from a woman who told me that she set up a private Instagram account so that she could find community. And she said she was so ashamed because she's a psychologist. And she said, I should not be quietly quitting, but I need to meet other women. So the reaction, it continues. It hasn't stopped. If anything, it seems to have grown.

• 5:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, and how do you feel being the woman who unleashed this for us?

• 5:59Speaker 01

  I feel great about it. I really do. I knew I was opening a Pandora's box, but when Pandora opened that box, what she left in the box was hope. And I like to think that this is maybe going to hearken some change. And I also want to say, I feel like as a kid, I couldn't do anything for my mom. And in writing this article, it felt like I made up for not being there for her.

• 6:24Oprah Winfrey?

  But isn't it true too that husbands are quietly quitting within the marriage also?

• 6:29Speaker 01

  Yes. I think in a lot of cases, they're reacting. I don't know that they're initiating. And I think some men just live quietly quitting. They're just not as engaged in their relationships.

• 6:41Oprah Winfrey?

  So why did this concept resonate with so many women? Nedra Glover-Tawwab is a licensed therapist. You've seen her here on the Oprah Podcast several times before. She's a New York Times bestselling author and relationship expert. Her brand new book is "The Balancing Act." Welcome back to the podcast, Nedra. And Julie Menanno is a therapist and the bestselling author of "Secure Love: Create a Relationship That Lasts a Lifetime." We welcome you, Julie. Okay, what do you think this idea of quiet quitting? Why is it now just resonating in such a way that we haven't been able to

• 7:26Oprah Winfrey?

  formally articulate before?

• 7:28Speaker 01

  Well, most people don't quietly quit their partners. They quietly quit emotional disconnection. So I like to think of emotional disconnection as the disease, and quiet quitting is the late-stage symptom of the disease. And when I say emotional disconnection, I also mean just the pain of continuing to reach for something and still ending up feeling hurt and alone. There's a quote, I love a Sue Johnson quote, that the only thing couples are ever really asking each other is, are you going to be there for me when I really need you? And when the answer to that question is no, enough of the time, and it can be over, you know, small things, like needing comfort after a long day and just getting distracted responses, or sharing something important

• 8:13Speaker 01

  and feeling dismissed, these little, small things accumulate over time, and they can actually do as much damage to a relationship as big things like affairs.

• 8:23Oprah Winfrey?

  So repeat that question, because I know that resonated with a lot of people. The only question you're ever asking in your marriage is?

• 8:30Speaker 01

  Are you going to be there for me when I really need you?

• 8:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Would you agree with that, Nedra?

• 8:36Speaker 02

  Yes, and I'd say that the term quietly quitting gave people a voice to what they were already experiencing. I don't know if my grandparents had that term and many other couples that we know who share separate bedrooms or separate lifestyles. We didn't have a term for it, but now that we do, it's like, oh, yeah, it's me. It's this other person. It's, you know, we can think of so many people that this applies to. And as we're seeing, people are connecting with it.

• 9:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, people were just checked out. Yeah, because they weren't getting what they want. And what do you think that women are not getting from their spouses that leads them to actually quiet quit?

• 9:19Speaker 02

  It's the support. It is the emotional connection. It is the, do you like me? It's, do you?

• 9:26Oprah Winfrey?

  No, do you even see me?

• 9:27Speaker 02

  Do you even see me? Do you like me? Do you hear what I'm saying? We often in relationships think about how it was in the beginning, when someone was courting us, and there were all these signs that they were interested. And five, 10 years later, we don't see any of that. And so now people are like, am I even here for you? Do you see me? Where is this relationship? What is it now?

• 9:50Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, well, you know what that is? I used to say this all the time, that I found in every guest the experience of people wanting to know, do you see me? Do you hear me? Does what I say mean anything to you? And I think that that is a fundamental issue in every relationship. Do you see me? Do you hear me? And does what I say mean anything? And I think if you're in a relationship with somebody and you no longer feel seen or heard, it means you also don't feel validated or valued. And that's, that's sort of it, right? What's happening, would you say?

• 10:25Speaker 01

  Yes, absolutely.

• 10:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 10:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Everything I do begins with intention. You become exactly what you believe is possible. Especially the Oprah Podcast. You're doing good, Aiden. I believe when people share their personal journeys with authenticity.

• 10:44Speaker 06

  Never thought of it like that.

• 10:45Oprah Winfrey?

  I love that you've never thought of it that way before. And with intention, something beautiful happens. We recognize pieces of our own lives in theirs. We realize. That actually helps, right? We are not alone.

• 11:00Oprah Winfrey?

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• 12:16Oprah Winfrey?

  So I want to bring in some of our audience members who are going through this right now. So Handy, how are you?

• 12:22Speaker 05

  Hi, I'm doing well, thank you. It's an honor to be here.

• 12:25Oprah Winfrey?

  You look pretty in that green dress.

• 12:26Speaker 05

  Thank you, thank you.

• 12:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, so what's going on?

• 12:30Speaker 05

  Well, I am here. I can relate to every single thing that was said here.

• 12:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Because?

• 12:37Speaker 05

  I've been married to my husband for 19 years. We have two teenage daughters, a senior in high school and a junior in high school. And I saw a quote a while back, and it said, "Do you want to be loved like this for the rest of your life?" And the answer is no. And so for the past three years, I've been on this journey of tapping into me, healing me, going within, the stillness and silence within. And the more I grow, the more I'm getting pushback from my husband. And the more I express, I want to be emotionally connected to you. This is what I desire. This is what I need from a partner.

• 13:20Speaker 05

  It is a dismissal, a denying that I'm doing that, or a twist.

• 13:26Oprah Winfrey?

  And how does that dismissal show itself or manifest itself? Does he say, "You're lying," or "I don't see what you're saying"?

• 13:32Speaker 05

  You have a cush life. You have a good life. I'm here. I said, "Yes, you're physically here, but you don't know anything that's going on in my life." We've slept in separate bedrooms for years. It started out because of snoring. And it was a grief for me because my husband, I felt like that time at night, like we could come together and talk. And that was a real grief for me. So I've reached kind of the end of this chapter with my girls soon to go off to college. And I want to connect with my husband. And he says things like, "Why can't you just coexist and be married? Why does everything have to be a Disney movie?"

• 14:17Speaker 05

  And I'm not wanting Disney, I'm wanting connection.

• 14:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, all right. Well, you know what? I was just thinking, and as I was preparing for the show today, and all of you who are speaking about your personal relationships, I often wonder this, what happens when you go home? First of all, I think it's really courageous of you, brave of you, bold of you to share this with the world. And so many other women in particular, and also men, listening, are seeing themselves in your story. But what happens when you go home after you've shared this with all of us?

• 14:54Speaker 05

  Well, everything I'm saying here, I've said before.

• 14:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 14:58Speaker 05

  And one thing I want to be clear about is that I love my husband so much. And I see with a little bit of effort how we could connect and, you know, be that stable family for our girls. But I cannot do it alone. So I have to speak my truth because, you know, I just need more.

• 15:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Are you and your friends talking about this?

• 15:20Speaker 05

  Oh, yeah.

• 15:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, the way Monica described in the article. Are you all talking about it?

• 15:25Speaker 05

  Yes, especially in my age group. I'm 44, and our kids are, you know, flying the nest to go off to college. And so we're about to be in this next chapter. And it's an uneasy thing, like what does that look like?

• 15:39Oprah Winfrey?

  So what's your question for our experts, for Nedra or Julie?

• 15:44Speaker 05

  I have just tried every approach possible, and it's always met with a block, with glimmers of showing up and that there's love there and that he wants the same thing. But unless I'm happy Handy, things, if I'm not happy Handy, things get wobbly. And I just want to know for me, what can I do

• 16:11Speaker 05

  that perhaps I haven't said or tried before? You know, maybe my approach is wrong.

• 16:18Speaker 02

  You know, you asked the question, "Do I want to be loved like this?" And I was hearing the different question, "Am I being loved?"

• 16:26Speaker 05

  Right.

• 16:28Speaker 02

  "Am I being cared for? What does care look like in this relationship? Has there been any conversations not about love?" Because he's saying, "I love you. Look, you have a home, you have these things." What you're talking about is the care.

• 16:44Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 16:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 16:44Speaker 02

  I don't feel connected. I don't feel attuned. I don't feel cared for.

• 16:50Speaker 05

  Right.

• 16:50Speaker 02

  Here are things that would make me feel cared for in this relationship.

• 16:56Oprah Winfrey?

  And Nedra, also, isn't the important question,

• 17:00Oprah Winfrey?

  "Am I being loved?" Because your point is, from his point of view, he may say, "I'm showing you I love you because, look, I pay the bills," or "You have a house," or "You're living this cushy life." But isn't the question, "Am I being in the love, am I being loved the way I need?

• 17:15Speaker 05

  Right.

• 17:16Oprah Winfrey?

  I need?"

• 17:16Speaker 02

  And that can evolve in a 19-year marriage. You know, I've been married 16 years, and the things that I've needed over the years have shifted during different periods of time. And so, yeah, in relationships and friendships, like we grow and change.

• 17:33Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 17:33Speaker 02

  And so the things that made you feel loved and cared for maybe 10 years ago, like that security, that was really important at one point. But what you need now is this emotional part that's not being met.

• 17:48Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 17:48Speaker 02

  So having more conversations about that. And also, it sounds like you've done a lot. And I wonder if there is space for, "Do I want to continue in this way and be patient with him growing? Or is there something else that I need to consider here?"

• 18:08Speaker 05

  Right. Yeah, I feel that. Elizabeth Winkler says, "We don't ever step in the same river twice." So we are ever-evolving. And I say growth is essential in a relationship. And I think that you saying, "Being patient with him." And that's where I put my ego in check, too. I don't want to be responding in ego. And I think that's a beautiful thing. And, you know, we have this window left before our youngest goes off to school. So that's really beautiful. Thank you.

• 18:41Oprah Winfrey?

  Julie?

• 18:42Speaker 01

  Yeah, so the goal here, the end game, is emotional connection. That's what needs to happen for the relationship to work. And so now we have to work backward from there and say, "Well, what's getting in the way?" And 100% of the time when I'm working with couples, the very same thing is getting in the way. And it's these negative communication cycles they're getting stuck in when they try to talk about the problem. So you bring the problem to him, and you're like, "Look, I'm dying over here, I'm alone, you know, help me out." And then he hears criticism. That taps into his shame. And he doesn't know how to talk about that because he never learned how.

• 19:16Speaker 05

  Right.

• 19:17Speaker 01

  And so what he does is he, you know, says something to push you away, blames you, whatever, then you feel dismissed. So we've got to get you guys out of that cycle. And what needs to happen first is he's got to be open to learning how, to start talking, to start speaking vulnerably.

• 19:33Oprah Winfrey?

  And what if he isn't?

• 19:34Speaker 01

  If he isn't, then we have to go, okay, where do we go from there? So the first thing is, you know, there are a few different things you can try. One is what can really help, and it's not a guarantee. Of course, there's no relationship advice out there that's a guarantee, is instead of sending the message, "Here's what you're getting wrong, here's what you're getting wrong, you don't want to get help, you don't want to get help," lean into the resistance. Lean in and say, "Listen, I understand. You must have really good reasons for not wanting to get help. Something is threatening about that. I don't know what it is, but I'm willing to hold that with you and try to understand it, even when I disagree." Because of course you disagree. You and I both know that you need help for this to work, right?

• 20:18Speaker 01

  But sometimes when you can just kind of lean in, is you're wanting more validation, right? Around things that he doesn't see eye to eye with you on. And so if we can do that and model that and say, "You know what, listen, I'm willing to understand more about what is so scary for you about getting help. Help me understand." That's basically you saying, "Look, I'm here with you. Let's do this as a team." And a lot of times when people feel that understanding and validation, their nervous systems do start to feel safer and open up.

• 20:45Oprah Winfrey?

  I'm not thinking he's going to open up about that, but okay. Thinking that somebody

• 20:50Speaker 01

  He might not.

• 20:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Who says enjoy your cushy life is willing to now share with you what his fears are.

• 20:55Speaker 01

  I've seen it a thousand times.

• 20:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, well, you know more than we all do, so there you go.

• 21:00Speaker 01

  I'm telling you. What I have found over and over is that when couples learn to do vulnerability, the relationship symptoms do start to ease up.

• 21:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay. I'm hoping that does. Okay, thank you. Keisha's here, you're living this in real time, right?

• 21:16Speaker 06

  Yes, very much so.

• 21:17Oprah Winfrey?

  And posting on TikTok trying to help other women going through it.

• 21:19Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 21:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Tell us what's happening with you.

• 21:21Speaker 06

  Yeah, well, about, back in May, I think, I like to say the perimenopause came and tapped me on the shoulder and said, Keisha.

• 21:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, that's what perimenopause is to do.

• 21:31Speaker 06

  It will, it'll tap you on the shoulder. And it said, Keisha, marriage shouldn't feel this way.

• 21:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 21:38Speaker 06

  So for 16 years, I had been bridging the emotional gap in our relationship. If a hard conversation needed to be had, I was the one facilitating it. If repair needed to be made, I was usually the one to start the repair, even if it wasn't my fault. And I came to him with that and talked about my grievances, because this even extended into, you know, how we operated in our home. If something in our home needed a decision, it was me making that decision. So I came to him with that, and for the most part, he didn't disagree. But the main thing I got from him was, I don't know how to fix it. So I asked him if he'd be open to moving into separate rooms, because I needed time

• 22:22Speaker 06

  to center myself and figure out what this was gonna look like. And he agreed with that, and my hope was, in that time period, that he would come to me, that he would, you know, bridge the gap. You know, I had spent 16 years bridging the gap. I wanted him to, I don't know why I thought this, but be my knight in shining armor and say, hey, I'm gonna fight for this, I'm gonna fight for you, here's what I'm gonna do, these are the things that I've started. And in the time period after we separated, I got primarily silence, avoidance.

• 22:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Separated within the same house.

• 22:53Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 22:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 22:54Speaker 06

  Yeah, so we separated, he went into another room, and he did not bridge that gap. And so it got to a point where I realized that I needed to emotionally separate, I needed, I was, because I was devastated. I was grieving what I thought my marriage was. I was waking up, crying, going to sleep, crying, stotting all over everything. I was just, fully, just devastated.

• 23:18Oprah Winfrey?

  In grief, in grief of that.

• 23:21Speaker 06

  In grief.

• 23:22Oprah Winfrey?

  So something you said that struck me, I don't know if you, if you resonated with you all too, and you all listening to us right now, you said, I wanted him to be my knight in shining armor. And I'm wondering if that's part of the problem, is that everyone has this vision, or a lot of people have this vision of the knight in shining armor, that we have an idea of who should be in this, this person should be in this relationship.

• 23:49Speaker 02

  Yeah, I heard a little bit of rom-com love, right?

• 23:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, rom-com.

• 23:53Speaker 02

  Yeah, I want this problem, and then he swoops in and he figures it out, and he saves the day, and we see that over and over on TV.

• 24:01Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 24:03Speaker 02

  But in real life, people don't figure things out without us telling them. Sometimes the separation that we encourage pushes us further apart, and what could be more helpful is being really clear with people. It sounds like you reached a place of burnout, right? When you're carrying a relationship for so many years, and it's like, okay, when are you gonna jump in? And this person is like, you've been doing it. So you're 100% and they're 0, or you're 90 and they're 10, you know, they're like, what's wrong? I've been doing 10% all along, and you're like, nope, I'm going to 20. So it's, you're at 10 and I'm at 20, now what?

• 24:45Speaker 06

  That's essentially what happened.

• 24:46Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 24:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Are you still grieving within the relationship? Are you still grieving?

• 24:51Speaker 06

  Not as much, I feel like I've successfully detached to some degree. Of course, I have moments where I kind of mourn things, but at the end of the day, I don't think this is gonna work, because I can't be in a marriage by myself.

• 25:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Hmm. Everybody went, hmm. Amen, Keisha, amen, amen, amen to that. Yes, you wanted to say, Julie?

• 25:15Speaker 01

  Well, I, I mean, there's, there's a lot of layers here. I think that to, first of all, I think you're doing the absolute best job you can with what you have, you know? And the grief is basically your nervous system saying, there's been a death here, and the death is the loss of what I had hoped this relationship would be. And, you know, there is, it's hard, you know that, but there is a lot of empowerment on the other side of that, because being in a situation where you're reaching for something over and over and not getting it is very disempowering.

• 25:48Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 25:49Speaker 01

  And so I just, you know, I'm, I'm happy that you were able to, to get through the painful part.

• 25:56Speaker 06

  Absolutely. Disempowering is a great word, because for the longest time, I was like, do you even like me?

• 26:02Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 26:02Speaker 06

  You know, why would you let me carry all of this on my own? And I, I think it was just, he was just ill-equipped, honestly, he was just not taught.

• 26:11Speaker 01

  He wasn't taught, yeah.

• 26:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 26:12Speaker 02

  And how does he learn if he has no practice?

• 26:16Speaker 06

  That's true, but how does he learn if he doesn't try? There doesn't seem to be willingness there.

• 26:22Speaker 01

  They have to be open to learning.

• 26:24Speaker 06

  Right.

• 26:24Speaker 01

  That's the, that's the deal breaker.

• 26:26Speaker 06

  Right.

• 26:26Oprah Winfrey?

  Does he have the capacity?

• 26:28Speaker 06

  That part.

• 26:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Does he have the capacity?

• 26:31Speaker 06

  I don't think so. I really don't.

• 26:34Oprah Winfrey?

  That's a whole nother thing.

• 26:35Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 26:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, that's a whole nother thing. If the person actually doesn't have the capacity to learn, or to want to learn, or to want to try, or to, yeah.

• 26:45Speaker 06

  Yeah, so, can I ask my?

• 26:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, please do, go, go. No, go for it.

• 26:51Speaker 06

  So, we have 15-year-old twins, and we've been cohabitating in this way for about a year. The plan is eventually to separate completely, but I don't know, I'm getting emotional, I don't know if I'm hurting them by us being in this household together. And they're watching us, and we're cordial with one another, there's, there's no animosity. But us being in this house in this way, am I hurting my kids by doing it this way?

• 27:20Speaker 01

  Yeah, so I, when someone asks me, you know, is this healthy or is this not healthy? The question I always ask is, what does your nervous system have to say? So if you're walking around, you know, and your kids are walking around feeling anxious or tense a lot of the time, then that, that is a sign that maybe it's time to consider some other options. You guys seem like you're, you know, in somewhat of an easy environment, and things are working. So I think this is a season of your life, and you're doing a fantastic job with what you have.

• 27:51Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 27:51Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 27:52Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 27:52Speaker 01

  You're welcome.

• 27:53Speaker 06

  I do feel that way. We've been pretty transparent with them, and for the most part, they're like, look, mom, we just started high school, we're sorry y'all are going through that, but, that's really the sentiment.

• 28:03Speaker 01

  And you know what? That's a testament to you, that your children aren't wanting to take care of you. So you're, you're doing a fantastic job.

• 28:11Speaker 06

  Thank you.

• 28:12Oprah Winfrey?

  I just saw you nod, though, Monica, because you were in a household where your mother didn't speak to your dad for a year, and how do you think that impacted you?

• 28:19Speaker 01

  So interesting, I got married at 38, and I never thought about this, but the reason I got married so late is because my mom would have left my dad if she had had the financial resources, if she'd been autonomous, she didn't go to college. So without thinking of it, I delayed my marriage until I was fully independent. Having said that, my parents didn't talk at all, and it sounds like you and your husband are really, have it out in the open, and your kids, you have a discussion about it. My mom never talked to me about it, so I just had to make my own conclusions.

• 28:54Speaker 06

  So that age-appropriate communication is valuable.

• 28:58Oprah Winfrey?

  I just want to share this, because this thought just came into my mind as you were speaking. I remember doing an interview with Adele, and she was talking about leaving her marriage, and she said, you know, nothing was really wrong, I was just unhappy, and he had done nothing, I had done nothing, I was just unhappy, and I wanted my son to have a happy mother.

• 29:27Speaker 06

  Yep.

• 29:28Oprah Winfrey?

  And so I think there's some value in that. I mean, she's Adele, she can leave, and she's independent, and can do whatever she, she wants, but I think that there is also some value in showing your children a happy mother.

• 29:40Speaker 06

  Absolutely.

• 29:40Oprah Winfrey?

  What would you say to that, Nedra?

• 29:42Speaker 02

  Saying your parents happy is a gift that some of us do not get to experience, especially happily in love with not even their other parent, but someone. Just that model of what a loving home can look like. I will say for you, it does sound like you're in an amicable situation, so it's not stressful to the kids, and it's beautiful that you're having that open communication, and also, them seeing you happy matters.

• 30:13Speaker 06

  Yeah.

• 30:14Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 30:15Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. Jess, I hear you are feeling like you're tired of managing everything, too.

• 30:23Speaker 03

  Exhausted. I think that the mental load of managing the house and being the CEO of the kids and knowing where everybody has to be at every moment alone, didn't really, I didn't realize I was doing it until maybe the last few years. And now he'll ask a question like, where is practice? Or what are we, and I'm thinking, it's the same place every Tuesday for the last six years, how do we not know yet? Come on. I feel like I'm treated like I'm Google. Where is it? How do I get it? You know? And there's this weaponized incompetence behind it, you're better at it, so you'll do it, you always do it, so you'll do it.

• 31:04Speaker 03

  And so I think for me, it's not so much about quiet quitting maybe the marriage, as it is like the role I have in it. I don't, my kids are 19 and 17.

• 31:13Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. You're speaking for a lot of women right now, as you're saying this, I'm thinking, I mean, all the women are saying, aren't we managing everything?

• 31:21Speaker 03

  Yes, you know, I just feel like, now maybe there's a little bit of time to figure myself out, and I'm realizing, wait, I'm still moming, it's just not as much these two, and I'm realizing, you know, I'm doing it over here, too.

• 31:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Hmm. Look at all the amens. You know, this isn't new, people are calling this a phenomenon, but this isn't new, because women have been doing this for years, as you were saying earlier, we're just calling it something different. But what feels different about it is that such modern women, millennial women, like yourselves, are quiet quitting. That's the point of the Cut story, correct, Monica?

• 32:02Speaker 01

  Yes, these women are staying in marriages when they actually could leave, you know, financially, they have careers, they're staying for their kids. I found really interesting, and this pertains to modern women. You know, in the past, you would say to a boyfriend, "You've changed. You're not the person I met." And now, women in midlife are saying to their husbands, "You haven't changed, and I'm evolving. You're not growing, so this relationship's not growing." So that's, I think, one of the biggest challenges in midlife marriage for modern women and husbands.

• 32:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Is that the women have grown, and in many cases, the men have not.

• 32:39Speaker 01

  Yes.

• 32:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 32:40Speaker 01

  They're stuck in stasis, and the women are ready for their second act.

• 32:45Oprah Winfrey?

  Amen.

• 32:46Speaker 03

  Amen.

• 32:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Amen, amen. Okay, what is your question for Nadja or Julie?

• 32:50Speaker 03

  My question is, am I withdrawing because we're in an unhealthy spot and something needs to change? Or is it because I've given up doing any vulnerable work?

• 33:00Speaker 02

  You know, it makes me think of, what is your role in other relationships, even outside of this? Because I'm hearing a lot of responsibility and taking on duty. So is that your role in the family, your role at work, your role in friendships?

• 33:15Speaker 03

  Everywhere.

• 33:16Speaker 02

  How do you step back in a way where you can preserve self?

• 33:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 33:21Speaker 02

  In a lot of scenarios. And it sounds like there's been a lot of overgiving at home, to the point that people are like, I don't even know. Like, what should we do here?

• 33:32Oprah Winfrey?

  Because you've taught people how to treat you.

• 33:34Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 33:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 33:35Speaker 03

  Hyperindependence, it's killed me.

• 33:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 33:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, yeah. And your kids are 19 and 17 now. You know, 19 and 17, you're working yourself out of that parenting role. So they should pretty much be able to figure out where their own soccer is.

• 33:52Speaker 03

  Yeah.

• 33:53Speaker 02

  Right? And sometimes, for people to learn the things that we already know, we have to just leave them. When I work with couples, especially with younger kids, and the mom is like, "Oh, my gosh, I have to do all these things before he takes the kid." Let him leave the house with an ill-equipped diaper bag. And that's how he learns how many diapers to pack.

• 34:16Speaker 03

  Yep.

• 34:16Speaker 02

  We have to let people fail. Drive to the wrong location.

• 34:20Speaker 03

  It's hard, so hard.

• 34:22Speaker 02

  And let those kids redirect you. And then, you'll figure out where soccer is. You'll figure out the entrance. Turn your phone off, don't be available, let them figure it out.

• 34:34Speaker 03

  That's good advice.

• 34:35Oprah Winfrey?

  Drive to the wrong location, really?

• 34:39Speaker 02

  Don't get there late, it'll be fine.

• 34:42Oprah Winfrey?

  I know, I know, I know you're just, you're thinking, I can't do that.

• 34:45Speaker 03

  No, I can't, I'm a control freak. I really can't.

• 34:47Speaker 02

  See?

• 34:48Oprah Winfrey?

  So Nadja, in your book, The Balancing Act, you write, you say, "Yes, independence is healthy, it's strength. But hyperindependence isn't a strength. Too little dependence on others leaves us feeling alone in our deepest struggles and crises." And this is, this is, this is calling your name, is it not?

• 35:07Speaker 03

  Totally.

• 35:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Is it also calling your name to all of you?

• 35:11Speaker 03

  100%.

• 35:11Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. So what do you want to say about that, hyperindependence?

• 35:14Speaker 02

  Step back. Step back, get out of the way. It is hard.

• 35:19Oprah Winfrey?

  It's hard to let them go to the wrong location when you know the right one.

• 35:22Speaker 02

  It also lessens the resentment that people won't help you. Well, they can't.

• 35:27Speaker 03

  True, so true.

• 35:28Speaker 02

  No one can help you cook a meal if you're like doing everything, and you know how to cut this right, and you know.

• 35:34Speaker 03

  Right.

• 35:34Speaker 02

  Let people mess up, let them figure it out. Get out of the way if you have to leave the house, if you have to turn your phone off. Whatever needs to be done for you to allow people to practice the things you already know.

• 35:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 35:49Speaker 02

  So give them more things to do without you being in the middle of it.

• 35:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Julie?

• 35:56Speaker 01

  Yeah, so that, I couldn't agree more. We got to get you stepping back. So now, we have to figure out, well, what's the block to stepping back? The block is the pain you're going to have to feel temporarily when you jump off that cliff. And you're going to have to feel feelings, it's scary, right? You're going to have to feel out of control, things might go wrong. How are you going to feel, what's the fear in that? You know, what's it going to be like to think your child is, you know, sitting there at soccer for 30 minutes when your husband can't find them? That's a terrible feeling. I mean, it'll probably work itself out, but, and it's probably a catastrophized fear also. But we got to sit with that. We got to go, okay, hold on, let me just take a breath here. What is this urge about that's making me want to just jump in

• 36:38Speaker 01

  and micromanage here and make sure that he's getting everything right? Well, I'm scared of the consequences. I'm scared of my daughter feeling alone. And feel some of that pain, because you've probably felt that pain in life before. Your body knows what it's like to feel alone and stranded. You don't want your child to feel that way, right? And so, it's about learning to sit with those emotions and process them so you don't just have to, you know, try to stuff them down and keep going forward.

• 37:04Speaker 03

  I agree, and thank you.

• 37:05Oprah Winfrey?

  You're welcome. My producers, in preparing for this show, spoke to a number of husbands who said there's another side to the story, that they too feel emotionally disconnected because they've been ignored by their wives for the children. They feel disconnected, and they feel lonely because all the attention goes to everything except them. So what do you want to say to women about what their partners might be feeling?

• 37:34Speaker 02

  We have more jobs than we thought. We thought the job was taking care of the kids, but it's also remaining a partner. And sometimes, when the kids come along, we put so much energy because they're these beings that need so much of us that we do forget about our partners. And we have to not manage both equally, but we have to pull each other in and acknowledge that this is a stressful, new situation. And we have to continue to prioritize the connection and the marriage, and not just parent.

• 38:10Oprah Winfrey?

  And I think part of the issue is that the modern woman, you lovely women in your 40s, are asking the question of, "Why do I have to do it all?"

• 38:19Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah.

• 38:20Oprah Winfrey?

  Is that what you're finding?

• 38:22Speaker 01

  Yes, and I just want to say, I don't want to blow up anyone's marriage, but in my reporting...

• 38:28Oprah Winfrey?

  But you already have.

• 38:32Speaker 01

  What I found was that...

• 38:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Now you're trying to moonwalk it back after you wrote the article that went viral, but now like, "I don't want to blow up anyone's marriage." What?

• 38:43Speaker 01

  All of the men felt blindsided. And I spoke with many therapists who echoed this, and divorce coaches, and men. They were shocked, and they didn't act until women took action. So talking and talking, men didn't hear it. They heard wah, wah, wah, wah. And then, when they saw the suitcases, whether they were yours or his, it was all of a sudden, well, what can we do? I don't want this to happen. Again, I just, this was a common theme. I was shocked that these men were blindsided, but so was my dad. He didn't realize that my mom felt this way.

• 39:16Oprah Winfrey?

  The thought, you asking him, "Would suits go to the cleaners?" Never occurred to him that that was a problem because that's the way you all communicated in the house. You actually started the article talking about the kind of woman your mother is now, that when you see her, that she's got the loud... Describe what happened to your mother when she finally got out.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  When my mom finally left my dad, she had such a renaissance. I mean, it was like her life started again. And it's been so great to watch. It was tough for her, but the other side was magical. She really got to be who she always wanted to be. And in fact, she told me that had she not been with my dad, she would have been an artist, living in the West Village, painting.

• 39:58Oprah Winfrey?

  I think you started saying you could notice her jewelry from a block away, or...

• 40:01Speaker 01

  Oh, yeah, my mom is a loud woman, and she's from Brooklyn. But in that marriage, she was quiet, and now she's loud again, so.

• 40:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, that's so interesting. Do you feel yourself being repressed too, in the marriage at all?

• 40:15Speaker 06

  Yeah, I did have, I had to shrink myself to accommodate this marriage.

• 40:19Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 40:20Speaker 06

  And now that I've had this platform, I see myself emerging into this woman that I never knew that I could be.

• 40:28Oprah Winfrey?

  Wow. Jess, same thing?

• 40:30Speaker 03

  I don't feel like I've shrunk myself. I feel like I've just needed to take over. And so, I'm so busy doing all the things, I don't have time to be small because stuff needs done.

• 40:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Right, because you're managing everything.

• 40:42Speaker 03

  Because I'm managing.

• 40:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Everything, yes, yes, yeah. So, one of the things, Julie, you say in your book, you write that emotional validation, along with understanding, is arguably the single most important element of a truly satisfying relationship. Emotional validation. So how can women get emotional validation from their husbands, especially those who are feeling that they've tried this without success?

• 41:08Speaker 01

  Yeah, you know, first of all, some people don't want to validate because they think that if I emotionally validate you, then I'm going to give up my own needs or give up my own perspective here, where I have to agree with whatever it is that you're saying. And that's not what validation is. Validation is, hey, even when we don't see eye to eye, I'm still willing to step in and kind of understand your feelings over it. So I think when men can learn that there's success in this, it doesn't mean giving your own needs. And actually, it takes way less time to validate someone than it does to get in an argument for an hour because you're not feeling validated.

• 41:44Oprah Winfrey?

  Right. You know what's going to be validating? Thank you all for listening to this podcast. I know throughout the land, there are people watching and listening to us who are feeling very validated from just hearing this. I think being able to articulate it and put a name on it, that it is quiet quitting, that other women throughout the world also feel this, makes people feel like they are seen or heard, and that you're not the only ones, right? And I'm sure you discovered this when you started your TikTok.

• 42:17Speaker 06

  Oh, absolutely. I had no expectation that anyone would watch them. I was just, I'm a purger, I like to get it out, and I...

• 42:25Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, let's take a look at one of the things you did on the TikTok. Take a look.

• 42:28Speaker 06

  I want to talk to the woman in a long-term relationship. She knows it isn't working, but she feels stuck. Where are you at, friend? Come to the front. I see you in the comments. I've been with him 30 years. This is just my life now. I can't support myself. I don't even know how I'd leave. And then, somebody always says, "Just leave." Let's be serious. It's easy to say that when you're not the one who has to rebuild your whole damn life.

• 42:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 42:59Oprah Winfrey?

  And what's been the response, Keisha?

• 43:03Speaker 06

  Just women coming out of the woodwork telling me that I've given them words to something that they've been feeling for so long.

• 43:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 43:10Speaker 06

  Validation. There's just so many women who think that they're alone. I keep hearing, "I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one." And it's been incredible, the outpouring of just support for my own situation.

• 43:21Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. As I started the show, this podcast, I was saying, "I think there are probably more people in this situation than are actually getting divorced." Because the divorce rate for women in their 40s has, you know, leveled. It's women over 50 and over 65 that the divorce rate has gone up so severely. But I think for women in your all's age range, a lot of people are just pulling back and waiting to see what the next move is going to be. Yep. Yep. Well, thank you. Thank you all so much for being a part of this conversation. And thank you to Julie and her book. Secure Love is available wherever books are sold. She's also the creator of The Secure Relationship. It's an online platform that reaches millions.

• 44:06Oprah Winfrey?

  And thank you again to Nedra. Her brand new book is called The Balancing Act, available everywhere also. And thank you, Monica, you started all this here, for sparking this conversation. And to all of you for coming and sharing your stories. I hope this episode will do exactly what we're talking about, that it will allow you to know that you're not alone in your marriage. And my hope is that you find some peace and contentment, no matter what path you choose for yourself. We'll meet up next time. Go well, everybody. Thank you.

• 44:43Oprah Winfrey?

  If you could relate to our guest stories today and feel like you have also quietly quit your marriage, I encourage you to check out Julie Menanno's book, Secure Love, and Nedra Glover-Tawwab's book, The Balancing Act. Their books might just help you understand what isn't working in your relationship and help you find a new way forward. You can buy each book right now by scanning the QR codes on your screen. Our listeners tell us that the podcast is resonating with you and is serving as a bright spot in your day. That means a lot to me. So here's the thing. I would really appreciate it if you like and subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube or wherever

• 45:24Oprah Winfrey?

  you podcast. It's just a quick tap of the subscribe button, and that way you won't miss an episode in your queue. You don't have to pay anything. I know subscribe usually means you're paying something, but this time it means you just are notified when there's something new. There are many more to come that we're excited about. So thank you for watching and listening.