Pod Insights The Oprah Podcast How Mattering to Yourself & Others Can Change Your Life with Oprah, Jennifer Wallace & Ina Garten About this episode Oprah is joined by award-winning journalist and New York Times bestselling author Jennifer Wallace to talk about her transformative new book "Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose." Drawing on six years of research, Wallace shares how mattering - the feeling that we are valued and have an opportunity to add value - is a fundamental human need essential to our well-being. She believes there's been "an erosion of mattering" and provides actionable steps to deepen your connections, reconnect to your sense of purpose and navigate challenges with greater resilience. Joining the conversation is Jennifer's close friend and lifestyle icon Ina Garten. Oprah and Jennifer also speak with a military wife who learned how to bring mattering back to her marriage and an extraordinary young man who went from being a sanitation worker to a Harvard Law School graduate.
BUY THE BOOK!
'Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose' by Jennifer Wallace: https://amzn.to/4pJl6TT
Chapters:
00:00:00 - Welcome Jennifer Wallace, author of “Mattering”
00:05:50 - Ina Garten joins
00:07:05 - The importance of mattering to yourself
00:08:40 - How Ina shows people they matter
00:09:30 - The importance of showing up
00:10:50 - One easy way to show people they matter
00:12:20 - The thread that ties us together
00:13:40 - Extrinsic and intrinsic values
00:15:50 - Professor Gordon Flett on why mattering is life or death
00:18:12 - How mattering affects our longevity
00:21:00 - How to get through hard moments
00:23:00 - How Army partners struggle with mattering
00:28:00 - Our resilience is tied to our relationships
00:34:00 - Mattering to ourselves raises the bar for all relationships 00:35:20 - A former sanitation worker's observations on mattering
00:42:00 - Supporting support staff
00:44:50 - Mattering at work
00:46:00 - The 4 important feelings to mattering
00:48:10 - What to do if you feel like you don’t matter
Additional Resources:
‘Be Ready When the Luck Happens: A Memoir’ by Ina Garten:
https://amzn.to/4yQhiUK
Gordon L. Flett, Ph. D.
https://www.yorku.ca/lamarsh/gord-flett/
‘The Wives: A Memoir’ by Simone Gorrindo:
https://amzn.to/4fFPM3I
The Reciprocity Effect:
https://www.thereciprocityeffect.org/Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social:https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLIhttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381 https://www.thereciprocityeffect.org/Follow%20Oprah%20Winfrey%20on%20Social:https://www.instagram.com/oprahpodcast/https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/Listen%20to%20the%20full%20podcast:%20https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLIhttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381
Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Speaker 00 So Ina never cancels unless she is really sick.
0:04 Speaker 01 Definitely not.
0:04 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, I just don't.
0:05 Speaker 00 And you just know it. And it builds this trust. And we live in this flake culture where people have really, I mean, I think it's a terrible thing to do. It really erodes friendships. One way to make people feel like they matter is to commit to them. So they can trust you. They can trust that when they make a plan, you will be there.
0:23 Speaker 01 The most lovely thing you can do to say to somebody you matter is say, "Come to dinner." And I mean, when was the last time somebody called and said, "Come for dinner," and you said, "No, I'm not really interested."
0:33 Speaker 00 I know.
0:34 Speaker 01 In a home-cooked dinner.
0:35 Speaker 00 That's right.
0:35 Speaker 01 Of course, you're gonna say yes.
0:36 Speaker 00 Of course, you do.
0:36 Speaker 01 And when you show up, you create a community around yourselves.
0:43 Oprah Winfrey? Hey there. It's my pleasure to be with you here on the Oprah Podcast in the great city of New York. I often say that one of the biggest lessons I've ever learned from my life and career of talking with thousands of people is that at our core, we all want to know that we matter. It's one of our fundamental desires as human beings. Every argument, every interaction we have really boils down to this. Do you see me? Do you hear me? And does what I say matter to you? So when I saw the title of this book, "Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection," I thought, "Jennifer is speaking my language." It got my attention. And I love a clementine too.
1:27 Oprah Winfrey? So then I open it up and I see that I am quoted on page 18 in this book. Pretty cool. My guest on this podcast today believes that there has been an erosion of mattering. So that's why she was inspired to spend six years researching it all over the world. Jennifer Wallace is an award-winning journalist and founder of the Mattering Institute. Did you know there was a Mattering Institute? Well, welcome, Jennifer, to the podcast. I hear everyone calls you Jenny, so I'm gonna call you Jenny. Great, thanks, Oprah. So I find this fascinating, that you asked hundreds of people around the world this question. Do you feel like you matter?
2:12 Oprah Winfrey? We asked that of you today. Do you feel like you matter? That's a really important question. And what did they tell you, Jenny?
2:21 Speaker 00 They told me no or not anymore. I spoke with doctors who felt crushed by insurance companies, not able to practice the care they wanted. I heard from first responders wondering if their efforts were really making an actual difference. I heard from caregivers who felt like they mattered too much to everyone else, except that their needs were never prioritized. I spoke with a college student who told me that she only felt like she mattered when her GPA was high and her weight was low.
2:52 Oprah Winfrey? Yes, yeah.
2:53 Speaker 00 So it was a crushing experience, but I also met people who found a way back to mattering, which was inspiring.
3:03 Oprah Winfrey? Which is what we're going to talk about today a lot. And you write on page 10, "In truth, we are living through a social health crisis, a profound breakdown of the relationships that once protected us. We've lost track of our basic human needs for connection and contribution. Now we often feel tempted to fill that void with counterfeit forms of mattering, chasing attention over connection, prestige over purpose, and money over meaning." That's what you've found around the world, too. People are saying, but not articulating as well as that.
3:42 Speaker 00 Right. We have, you know, this is, as you said in the intro, this basic human need that we have stopped treating as a need and more like a nice to have. And the problem is, when you don't feed that need, you will find other ways to meet it, whether conscious or not conscious.
4:02 Oprah Winfrey? And do you think now with all of the things in this abundant-filled society that we live in, you would think that with all the abundance and all the access and all of the indulgence, that people would feel like they mattered more? But it's actually the opposite.
4:19 Speaker 00 It is. It's a false sense of mattering. It's sort of the junk food of mattering. I've been thinking, as I was writing this book, I was thinking about the theologian Henry Nowin, who talks about the three great lies of our society. I am what I have, I am what I do, I am what people say and think about me. That is the opposite of mattering. That is the belief that I do not matter. My mattering is contingent. It is contingent on my house. It's contingent on the number of followers I have. It's contingent on the sneakers I'm wearing. It's contingent on all these other things.
4:54 Oprah Winfrey? It's contingent on how people see me. It's how they see me. Their perception of who I am, instead of working on what you really are. Yeah.
5:02 Speaker 00 Yeah.
5:03 Oprah Winfrey? So, you know, I first heard about your book from Ina Garten.
5:05 Speaker 00 Oh.
5:06 Oprah Winfrey? Did you know that?
5:07 Speaker 00 Yes.
5:07 Oprah Winfrey? Right here on this podcast, when I was interviewing Ina from my tea house, Ina, who's one of the most, as we know, beloved people in the world, the fabulous Ina Garten. Here's a quick look at what Ina said. What do you think your purpose and your gift to the planet has been?
5:25 Speaker 01 I think writing the book has really made me realize this.
5:27 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
5:28 Speaker 01 Is, I think the thing that we can do is matter to each other. Is that my work matters to other people. And the thing about mattering, which a very good friend of mine, Jenny Wallace, talks about mattering and she's writing about it, is that it's so actionable that we can do things that make us, make other people feel they matter to us. And that makes them feel good and vice versa. And it's as simple as bringing a pot of chicken soup to a friend who's sick. You're saying to that person, you matter to me.
6:07 Oprah Winfrey? Hi, Ina Garten is here.
6:10 Speaker 01 I'm so happy to see you.
6:11 Oprah Winfrey? The Ina Garten wanted to show you her support, Jenny, because you matter so much to her as a friend. You've been friends for how long? Years?
6:21 Speaker 00 Ten years.
6:21 Speaker 01 Ten years, yeah.
6:22 Oprah Winfrey? Welcome, everybody, the Barefoot Contessa, Ina Garten. So good to see you.
6:27 Speaker 01 So good to see you.
6:28 Oprah Winfrey? Why did you believe so passionately in this book? Just in our conversation, you just casually mentioned it. She was writing it at the time.
6:36 Speaker 01 She was writing it, exactly.
6:37 Oprah Winfrey? What resonated most for you, Ina?
6:40 Speaker 01 What I love about Jenny is that she's writing the book because it's important to write, but she's such a believer in people understanding this. It's really more about people having the information so that they can make their lives better. And it doesn't matter whether it's 20 people or 2,000 people. She just wants people to understand how important this is to our own satisfaction.
7:03 Oprah Winfrey? And Ina has mattered so much to you, I'm sure, being a friend and mentor, yes.
7:07 Speaker 00 She has. I mean, I've learned so much in our 10 years of lunches and dinners.
7:12 Speaker 01 She's my mentor. I'm not her mentor.
7:16 Speaker 00 I will say, if we're going to talk in mattering terms, I think Ina really showed me how to matter to myself, which is a critical aspect of mattering. And when you are a parent to three young children and trying to have a career, your needs are often not even on the to-do list. And so I would go, we would meet for lunch, and I would sit down. And she would say, okay, so what are you doing for you? How are you? She didn't use the word "mattering" necessarily at the time, but she really, you know, what she showed me was we have to be intentional about finding our joy and celebrating our joy. She said to me a quote, "For some people like me, work is easy, play is hard."
7:58 Speaker 00 And so I learned from Ina how to prioritize my play, how to squeeze more joy into my day, even on those really busy days. And, you know, for anybody out there like me who's struggling with how to prioritize your own needs, I now have this simple practice that I do where every morning when I'm brushing my teeth, I say to myself, what is the one need I need to fill today for myself so that I can show up and be my best self for the people that I care about? So that's, it's about, you know, there's this great quote, "Self-care is other-care."
8:31 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
8:32 Speaker 00 And as parents.
8:33 Oprah Winfrey? We know that. Until, if your tank is empty, you don't have anything to give everybody else.
8:38 Speaker 00 Yes, yes.
8:40 Oprah Winfrey? I loved on our show, when we were doing our podcast together, Ina, that you said, "It could be as simple as a bowl of soup, sharing with someone." What are the other ways that you have found have been powerful in showing people that they matter?
8:54 Speaker 01 I think, I mean Jenny and I do this all the time, is when you're with somebody, you don't have a phone, you don't have anything with you, they've got your undivided attention. And that just says, "You're more important to me than anything else." And you and I do something that I just love, and we just do it spontaneously. Whenever we're together, we don't leave each other until we say, "When are we gonna, when's the next time?"
9:15 Speaker 00 We mark it in our calendars.
9:16 Speaker 01 We mark it in our calendars.
9:17 Oprah Winfrey? And you actually make the time.
9:18 Speaker 01 We make the time. We just say, "I'm not done. You're so important to me. I can't, I can't finish what we're doing."
9:24 Oprah Winfrey? That's good.
9:25 Speaker 01 And we always make it, and we do it without thinking about it as mattering, but it just, that's the way we...
9:29 Speaker 00 That you are worthy of protecting this time. I'll tell you the other thing that struck me 10 years ago, when we first started becoming friends, and I think what really...
9:38 Speaker 01 We first started dating.
9:39 Speaker 00 We first started dating as girlfriends. And what struck me was how quickly you can build a sense of trust when the person, you know, is committed to showing up to the events. So Ina never cancels unless she is really sick.
9:55 Speaker 01 Definitely, yeah. I just don't.
9:56 Speaker 00 And you just know it, and it builds this trust. And we live in this flake culture, where people have really, I mean, I think it's a terrible thing to do. It really erodes friendships. One way to make people feel like they matter is to commit to them, so they can trust you. They can trust that when they make a plan, you will be there. And it's in that trust, that commitment, that you feel comfortable being vulnerable.
10:20 Oprah Winfrey? And so, that's another lesson you learned from her, just by your actions, by what you, by the way you show up for other people.
10:26 Speaker 00 Yeah.
10:26 Oprah Winfrey? Did you learn anything in particular from this runaway bestseller of Ina's, "Be Ready When the Luck Happens"?
10:32 Speaker 00 I mean, the title is a mantra of mine, which I think, yes, luck plays into it, but so does the everyday. Work. I mean, Ina is a scientist. Ina is a serious businesswoman.
10:46 Speaker 01 Yes.
10:46 Speaker 00 She makes it look fun, and she does have fun, and she prioritizes her fun. But this is work. This is every day, five days a week, sometimes seven days a week, working. And that's how you build this unbelievable business and empire that both of you have built.
11:02 Speaker 01 I think Jenny and I do something else with each other. And the most lovely thing you can do to say to somebody you matter is say, "Come to dinner." We know how hard it is to make dinner. But when you say to somebody, "Come to dinner," you say, "You're important to me. And you're not only important, you're important enough that I want to spend the time and the energy to make dinner for you, to take care of you." And I think we love having small dinner parties where you can really connect with people. And I mean, when was the last time somebody called and said, "Come for dinner," and you said, "No, I'm not really interested in a home-cooked dinner." Of course, you're gonna say yes. And when you show up, you create a community around yourselves.
11:40 Oprah Winfrey? Well, Ina Garten knows how to do that better than anyone in the world. Thank you for all the gifts you've given to all of us and making all of us feel like we matter in the kitchen with our food offerings, with our cooking, with our sharing, and being able to be around the table with friends and really feel that that is valuable time for everyone.
11:58 Speaker 01 It is, and it always is, isn't it? Don't you always walk away feeling fulfilled, like so satisfying kind of experience having good friends around the table?
12:08 Oprah Winfrey? Absolutely. And we know that you have a busy schedule here in New York, so thank you for stopping by just to say hello and give us your support. Have fun letting us know we matter. Thank you. Thank you, Ina Garten. I thank you for listening. After this quick break, Jennifer and I talk with one of the world's leading experts on mattering, who shares vital information on the link between mattering and your health and longevity.
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13:02 Oprah Winfrey? Hi and welcome back to the Oprah Podcast. I'm with New York Times bestselling author and journalist Jennifer Wallace. Her new book is Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose. If there's someone you love who is struggling with feeling valued or seen, I hope you share this episode with them. So imagine my delight when I'm just flipping through the book, reading page and da, da, da, da, page 15, connecting to your impact and reading stories. And then I come across page 18 and there's a quote from Oprah Winfrey. I'm like, wow, I'm in this book. Where I say, there's a common denominator in the human experience that we all share. So that obviously resonated with you as deeply as it has resonated throughout my life.
13:46 Oprah Winfrey? But isn't that true?
13:48 Speaker 00 It is so true.
13:49 Oprah Winfrey? That's the thread that connects us all.
13:50 Speaker 00 Yes. If you want to know someone, if you want to really know them, ask them, do you feel like you matter?
13:57 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
13:57 Speaker 00 Did you grow up feeling like you matter? Do you work in a place that makes you feel like you matter? Do you matter to your neighbors, to your extended families? Do you have these deep nourishing friendships that remind you that you matter when you get pulled off course, when you doubt your own worth? We all need that.
14:13 Oprah Winfrey? You know, we're the wealthiest nation in the world and we have so much affluence and indulgence and abundance. Did you find talking to people in other countries that were not as wealthy and people were not as well off, that their sense of mattering is different than ours?
14:35 Speaker 00 Yes. I would say where it comes down to is, can I dork out for a minute?
14:39 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, dork out.
14:40 Speaker 00 And talk about values? So I didn't know this before researching the book, but our values, what we value impacts our wellbeing. So when researchers who study it say, all of us, all All over the world have these same core values inside of us. And researchers separate them out into extrinsic values and intrinsic values. Extrinsic values are things like wanting the big house, wanting the high-status career.
15:07 Oprah Winfrey? That's right, the car.
15:08 Speaker 00 The car, the popularity. A certain image, those are extrinsic values. Intrinsic values are things like wanting to be good to the environment, wanting to be pro-social, wanting to grow spiritually, wanting to be a good neighbor. Values operate like a zero-sum game. So the more time and energy you spend pursuing these extrinsic values, the less room you have in your life for pursuing intrinsic ones. And here's why this matters. Because extrinsic values are linked with negative mental health and substance abuse disorder, whereas intrinsic values are linked with the well-being we want. And here, it's not that we in America have bad values.
15:49 Speaker 00 It's that our extrinsic values are constantly being activated. On social media, in the wider media, we are hearing these messages day in and day out in our hyper-capitalistic culture, that you need these things to matter. Whereas people who live their lives and organize their lives through intrinsic values are what they are doing is they are more likely living a life of mattering. Living a life where they feel valued by their people and where they know that they add meaningful value back.
16:22 Oprah Winfrey? Well, I want to bring in Dr. Gordon Flett, whom you know.
16:26 Speaker 00 Hi, Gord.
16:27 Oprah Winfrey? A professor emeritus in psychology at York University in Toronto. The New York Times called him one of the world's foremost authorities on the subject of mattering, and his thoughts are featured throughout Jenny's book. Dr. Flett, thank you for joining us.
16:42 Speaker 04 Thanks so much for having me.
16:43 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you. And explain why mattering is so crucial.
16:48 Speaker 04 Mattering is something that cuts across virtually everything we do and everything we have in our lives in terms of our thoughts, our feelings, but also our roles and our relationships. And, you know, I think daily it's something that we experience either in terms of that feeling of mattering or not mattering. So to me, the bottom line is that when you're thinking about mattering and somebody has a deep sense of mattering, that they are somebody who is filled with hope as well. That's the key thing from a person perspective. It goes along with a lot of other positive things and it's very strongly related to hope. So somebody who has this sense has got a lot of positive resources they can bring up when they need it.
17:28 Oprah Winfrey? Absolutely. And you coined the term antimattering also. What is that?
17:32 Speaker 04 Antimattering is the flip side. It's that time when you feel like you're invisible, people are going out of their way to make you feel unimportant, insignificant. And it can be very deep in terms of a soul-based thing where if you chronically are experiencing this, you're feeling you've got, you're not being seen, you don't have a voice. And, you know, unfortunately, this is something that's related to epidemics that we have right now. Talk about the loneliness epidemic, the social media addiction epidemic. I think they're all focusing on that need to matter. And sadly, antimattering is very robustly correlated so that if you feel like you don't matter and it's chronic, you also have that strong sense of being alone and lonely.
18:16 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. As I was reading the book, I was thinking antimattering really contributes to people being dangerous, dangerous to themselves and dangerous to other people. Because when you don't feel like you matter, it means you can do anything to harm yourself and do anything to harm other people. Agree, Jenny?
18:34 Speaker 00 I totally agree. You will go to great lengths to prove that you matter.
18:38 Oprah Winfrey? That you do matter.
18:39 Speaker 00 When I think about political extremes, I think about road rage, I think about shootings, I think about online attacks. These are people who are desperately saying, oh, I don't matter? I'll show you I matter. They'll even act out against themselves. There was a study that I write about of suicidal men. And the two words they used to describe their pain was useless and worthless.
19:03 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
19:03 Speaker 00 So when we feel like we don't matter, we can turn against ourselves or we can turn against each other.
19:09 Oprah Winfrey? Well, Professor Flett, you know, I think this is something that maybe a lot of people don't realize, you know, we are seeing this craze now towards longevity. It's a craze happening in our culture. But how does mattering impact our morality and our longevity?
19:30 Speaker 04 I'm so glad you asked that. First, the morality, there is that subset of people Jenny referred to. That goes right back to the very first thing that was written about mattering, the idea that if I can't get my sense of feeling important from these people, I'll get them from these perhaps less desirable people.
19:45 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
19:46 Speaker 04 The longevity part is key, and that's the one thing I'd really like to underscore for your listeners and your viewers, is that there's about 10 studies now that link mattering with better self-reported health, and two of them involve objective measures so that you'll see a link with blood pressure, heart rate, positive chemicals versus the negative chemicals, and that's now been implicated as well in terms of quicker aging and mortality. And it goes back to what I was saying about loneliness and being a predictor of earlier death. So I really see the feeling of mattering or not mattering as a life or death thing. And, you know, ideally, people are going to be able to have a sense of mattering because it cuts down on the stress.
20:28 Speaker 04 If somebody is leading a life of not mattering, they're leading a life of extreme and chronic stress.
20:33 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. And endangering themselves and possibly other people.
20:38 Speaker 00 Well, when you feel like you don't matter, you feel like you're going through this world alone.
20:42 Oprah Winfrey? Alone, yes.
20:43 Speaker 00 And we know from an evolutionary perspective that we are wired to matter.
20:48 Oprah Winfrey? Right.
20:48 Speaker 00 We are wired to be important to the band, to the group, and to not matter to the group means to be pushed out. And to our earliest ancestors, that meant death. And we are wired, and as Gord puts it, it is life or death. It is life or death.
21:04 Oprah Winfrey? All right. Thank you, Dr. Flett or Gord.
21:06 Speaker 04 Thank you so much again.
21:07 Speaker 00 Nice to see you.
21:08 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you so much.
21:09 Speaker 04 Good to see you as well.
21:11 Oprah Winfrey? I'm wondering, Jenny, when you were asking these questions of people around the world that we started our podcast talking about, you know, do you matter? Do you think that you matter to someone? Did just asking the question cause a lot of people to reflect in a way that your interest made them feel like they mattered?
21:31 Speaker 00 Yes, they were very open to talking about it. What I found often were the people who were saying they didn't feel like they mattered, they were going through a life transition. So either they had lost a loved one that they felt very valued by, or maybe facing an empty nest, or maybe they'd lost a job, or relocated. I experienced that myself when I was a newlywed moving to London. When you go through a transition, we tend to personalize the experience. We think, oh, it's so painful. There must be something wrong with me that I'm not coping well with this change. But transitions in and of themselves are a hard thing to do.
22:08 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
22:09 Speaker 00 Right? We're going from one role to another role. And if we can look at them through the lens of mattering, that offers us a pathway through the transition. So if you're going through a painful transition, look for role models. Look for people who have gone through something similar and
22:25 Oprah Winfrey? And gotten through it.
22:26 Speaker 00 And gotten through it. Use their life as almost like a blueprint for yourself, a little map.
22:30 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
22:30 Speaker 00 And then there's one other thing that I write about in the book is the power of invitation. So it is accepting invitations and issuing invitations.
22:38 Oprah Winfrey? And offering them.
22:39 Speaker 00 When we are going through something hard, we are often reluctant to reach out to people or to accept because we feel like we have to get our lives together. But there's research called the beautiful mess effect, which is the idea that we think we need to be perfect to be loved. But actually, when we are going through something hard, when we are authentic and open about it, that it actually brings people closer to us because they trust us more. They think we're authentic. So if you are going through something hard,
23:06 Oprah Winfrey? They trust you because they see in fields of vulnerability.
23:09 Speaker 00 They do. They see you as a human, someone they can trust. And if you are not getting invitations, I interviewed this woman who went through a horrible divorce, didn't want to be a fifth wheel out to dinner. And so she was complaining to her therapist that her social life was zero. And the therapist said, then you start hosting dinner parties. You start inviting your girlfriends to your house. Reboot your social life. You have agency.
23:31 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
23:32 Speaker 00 That is a big message in the book, that if you are feeling like you don't matter, you need to know you are one decision, you are one step away from mattering again.
23:41 Oprah Winfrey? That's right. After this short break, Jennifer and I talk with a military wife and mother who felt invisible. If you or someone you know feels the same, she found a simple, inspiring solution.
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24:04 Speaker 05 We're gonna take this city back. In an all-new season, now streaming only on Disney+. They're hunting us. It's time we started hunting them. I can work with them.
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24:23 Oprah Winfrey? So glad you're back. I'm with journalist Jennifer Wallace. Her new book, Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose, is giving us a lot to think about. Like, how can I make the people in my life know that they matter? Let's get back to it. You talk often in the book about reaching out to somebody else. You know, one of the things I remember when I read the story in the book that you share about a military wife. We went to a military base and did a whole show with military wives and treated them to wonderful things because, as you say in the book, so many military wives feel alone. They feel like they don't matter. They feel like they've sacrificed.
25:05 Oprah Winfrey? Military spouses are going through something called silent scaffolding, holding everything together, but they still feel invisible. So Simone Guerindot is also a journalist who wrote a book called The Wives: A Memoir, and she's joining us from her home in Washington. Hi, Simone. Tell us about that feeling of invisibility.
25:23 Speaker 00 Hi, Oprah. Hi, Jenny. Just first of all, thank you so much for having me. It is an absolute honor to be here.
25:30 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you.
25:31 Speaker 00 Well, you know, really, at the very beginning of my journey of becoming an army wife, I immediately was swimming in those waters of invisibility. My husband, it was back in 2012.
25:44 Speaker 06 He joined a rapidly deployable combat unit in the Army. And I left my job as an editor in New York City and packed up a U-Haul. And we drove south to Columbus, Georgia.
25:55 Oprah Winfrey? Oh, Lord.
25:56 Speaker 06 Weeks later.
25:58 Oprah Winfrey? It's a long way.
25:59 Speaker 06 It was a long way. And I've left everything I know, I knew behind. I'd never been south of the Mason Dixon line. And I didn't even have a driver's license to get myself around. I was that much of a fish out of water. And two weeks after we arrived, my husband deployed to Afghanistan. And on one level, I knew what I was signing up for. I knew he was going to deploy and go train. But it was such an isolating experience. I felt so alone so immediately. And I couldn't call him. And if he could call me, it was over these monitored phone calls. And especially in the beginning, both of us were getting this messaging
26:41 Speaker 06 that we, we needed to be as quiet as possible about where he was, what he was doing. So he was so nervous in the beginning. I remember asking him what he had for breakfast. And he said, we, I can't talk about that. And so really, my husband, my closest connection, I just kind of felt like I, I'd lost him overnight. And it was confusing too, because we get this messaging from commanders that, you know, we are essential. They can do what they do because of you. They're training and deploying at this breakneck speed and you are keeping it together. Like you said, you are the silent scaffolding at home, keeping it together.
27:18 Oprah Winfrey? Mm hmm.
27:19 Speaker 06 And that's true. And also really, our primary job is to be silent and invisible and to not let on where he's going. And there's really so many facts of our lives we can't share with our loved ones. And that can make you feel pretty invisible.
27:38 Oprah Winfrey? What helped to make you?
27:40 Speaker 06 Start to feel like you mattered. Well, luckily, I didn't know anybody except the woman across the street, who was a wife in the same unit, and she was as new to this world as I was. And we had gone to the deployment drop off together and seen each other cry, but otherwise knew nothing about each other. And that first week after our husbands left, I remember looking through the blinds, watching her drive to the store, watching her wash the dishes. It sounds a bit stalkerish. And feeling like I wanted to reach out, but wondering if, you know, it's what Jenny was saying, like, I felt like maybe I wasn't doing this right. Like, she knew how to do this. She was doing great. She felt strong.
28:23 Speaker 06 And I, on the other hand, was not doing so well in my new life. So I was nervous, but thankfully, she was bold. She reached out. She said, come over for TV and wine. And I basically ran over there in my pajamas. And that night, we had this really intimate conversation, I think, because we both needed someone to talk to so much. And I'll never forget it. At the end of the night, she said, thank you for opening up to me. And it's so simple, those, it's such a simple phrase, but it really stunned me, I think, because it shifted my perspective on how you show up in a relationship and a friendship. I think I had thought that to share my struggles was, I was a burden if I did that.
29:08 Speaker 06 And she was saying, no, it's a gift. And that, just that phrase in and of itself was an invitation. And after that, we went on to cook each other dinner, as you talked about. We went grocery shopping together. She taught me how to drive. Later, during a really rough deployment, I had pretty bad perinatal anxiety with my first pregnancy. And she had a toddler at that point. And I spent so many nights at her house, which at that point was a mile away, that my Maps app started registering her address as home. And you know, that was, she was my lifeline. And it was, we were necessary to our spouses and we were necessary to each other.
29:50 Speaker 06 But with each other, we got to feel seen and heard and really share the secret of our lives.
29:58 Oprah Winfrey? Why did you include the story in the book, Jenny?
30:00 Speaker 00 It resonated so much with me. You don't have to be a military spouse to feel that feeling of being so necessary to so many other people and yet your needs not being prioritized. And I think what Simone hits on is something that we don't talk enough about in our culture, which is the idea that our resilience rests on the depth and support of our relationships. So we are sold this bill of goods by the multi-billion dollar wellness industry to download, you know, to, to, to light a candle or to soak in a bubble bath and you'll be resilient. Those are great stress reducers, but they do not give us the resilience we need to show up day in and day out as, as the sturdy adults that we want to be for the people that we care about.
30:45 Speaker 00 It's only in our deep relationships and decades of, of research show this, that resilience rests on relationships and Simone's story shows just that.
30:56 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. Simone, thank you for joining us in this conversation.
31:00 Speaker 06 Thank you so much, Oprah.
31:02 Oprah Winfrey? And I'm glad you just reached out. She was just across the street. I can see you opening the curtain, looking there she's going now. That's a beautiful story. Thank you. Thank you.
31:11 Speaker 06 Thank you.
31:12 Oprah Winfrey? Well, Christina's from Georgia and posted this on TikTok. Watch.
31:17 Speaker 00 I wasn't allowed to be a full person growing up. And because of that, I struggle a lot with trusting that people are genuinely interested in me and that people want to hear from me because my parents didn't genuinely emotionally engage with me or try to.
31:37 Speaker 00 Be interested and actively interested in me as a person. It feels like a constant daily battle.
31:47 Oprah Winfrey? Christina is joining us. Hi Christina.
31:49 Speaker 00 Hi. Hi Christina.
31:51 Oprah Winfrey? What happened when you shared that post on TikTok?
31:56 Speaker 00 That post brought me so much comfort to know that other people felt the same way as me and what I was feeling. You see, I moved around a lot as a kid. I would be at one school in the fall and a new one in the spring. And with that experience, it brought feelings of like instability and also isolation because it was hard to form deep bonds and make roots in a place. And so my family became my emotional world. And when I was in that world, I had to suppress a lot of myself.
32:35 Oprah Winfrey? Because your family didn't understand what you were going through?
32:38 Speaker 00 Yes.
32:38 Oprah Winfrey? Right. I read that your mother, you know, wanted to move up in the world. And every time you were pulled out of another school, they were just like, get over it. They didn't understand the emotional toll that was taking on you as a little girl. And that happened to going to another place and making new friends and being the one walking in who is not like everybody else because all the other kids had already started school. So that had a great impact on you.
33:06 Speaker 00 Significantly. It's even harder to make connections now. I'm, I am in therapy though. And in therapy, I have been building a sense of self. And the next stage that I'm working on is building deeper connections and relationships.
33:25 Oprah Winfrey? So what's your question? What's your question for Jenny?
33:28 Speaker 00 My question is, when you're trying to show up for another person, but your needs aren't being reciprocated and they make you feel like you don't matter, how do you?
33:38 Speaker 06 You navigate those relationships.
33:40 Speaker 00 Oh, well, thank you first for telling your story. And I have to say, I'm glad you were validated through the people on TikTok. Because what you're what you're describing is not uncommon. Even throughout our entire lives, we will struggle to make new friends. We will relocate, we will change jobs. Building friendships is a skill, and it's a skill we can learn. My question for you is, is this person that you're talking about someone that you need in your life? Is this someone that you work with or you you have in close proximity that you can't get away from? Because you deserve a reciprocal relationship. And I think you know that. So I guess my first question to you is, do you have to be around this person?
34:21 Speaker 06 I don't think so. It's more so whenever I go out to events of similar people find meet people with similar interests is where I might meet someone who says they are really interested and want to be my friend. But then I show an effort and it maybe they flake or like something comes up or.
34:44 Oprah Winfrey? It's not reciprocated.
34:46 Speaker 00 Yeah, Oprah and I were talking about this whole flake culture.
34:49 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
34:49 Speaker 00 And how corrosive it is for building trusting relationships.
34:53 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. Earlier in the show, Ina Garten was here and we were saying that the one thing that you can count on for Ina is that if she says she's going to show up, she shows up. And we were just saying, we're that we're that kind of woman too. If I tell you I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it. I'm going to follow through. And this whole, oh, I'm so sorry, I couldn't do it, I couldn't do. It's just not even a I don't have friends like that.
35:15 Speaker 00 I have a very low tolerance for it.
35:16 Oprah Winfrey? I have a low tolerance for it, yes.
35:18 Speaker 00 So I'm happy to hear you have a low tolerance for it too, actually.
35:21 Oprah Winfrey? That's what that means. That's what this means, yes.
35:23 Speaker 00 And so when I was your age and I was moving cities and changing and had to make new friends, one of the ways that I was able to find friends who shared my values were doing things that sort of reflected my values. So for example, I I work with the homeless here in New York. And so I was volunteering. And so I was able to meet people who at their core had the same interests. And so I won. Wonder if where you're looking for friendships could be shifted so that it reflects more about who you are and what matters most to you and look for the people there.
35:58 Speaker 06 Yeah, it's really touching to hear that. Occasionally, I go on Sundays to make sandwiches for the homeless. So it's very touching to hear your experience and gonna keep on trying.
36:08 Speaker 00 Oh, keep going. And you are right to to think that you are worthy of a friendship that's reciprocal. And I'm so happy to hear that you're working on yourself because what I have found in my research is that we need to learn how to matter to ourselves. And when we can matter to ourselves, it it raises the bar on the kind of people we will allow in our lives.
36:33 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you, Christina. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Next, a remarkable young man I read about in Jenny's book who I am so excited to meet. He went from working as a sanitation worker cleaning dumpsters to getting into Harvard Law School. What he did next was even more extraordinary.
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37:22 Oprah Winfrey? Hi, welcome back. Author Jennifer Wallace has simple, actionable steps to make the people in your life, at your job, at your school, in your family, in your everyday encounters, feel like they matter. It's the universal thing we all want. I know this for sure. Here's more. Also in the book, you share this remarkable story about Ruhan. I love that story. Can you share it briefly before we meet him?
37:47 Speaker 00 Oh, my gosh. He's remarkable. We could do a whole hour on him. So as a young child, his family struggled. He struggled with food insecurity. When he graduated high school, he became a sanitation worker. Felt very proud to be serving his city that way, but also felt invisible in that uniform. He had people in his life, from the very beginning, who invested in him. His coworkers invested and pushed him to live out his dream, which was to go to college. He went to college. He didn't just go to college. He went all the way to Harvard Law School. His story is remarkable.
38:21 Oprah Winfrey? OK, so Ruhan is joining us from New York. Hi, Ruhan.
38:25 Speaker 07 How are you doing? Thank you so much for having me.
38:27 Oprah Winfrey? So glad to see you.
38:29 Speaker 07 Likewise, likewise.
38:30 Oprah Winfrey? So we want to know, I'm so fascinated by the story Ginny tells in "Mattering" about your taking on the job as a sanitation worker. And what struck me is that moment where you and a couple of other of your coworkers were painting a dumpster, I think, right? You're painting a dumpster. Tell us about that moment.
38:55 Speaker 07 I'll never forget that, actually. I remember that I was at a different yard that day on Polk Street in Washington, DC. I was barely ever at that yard. On this given day, a lot of people were walking by us, but there was a mother walking with her son.
39:11 Oprah Winfrey? How old was the son? I was trying to picture how.
39:13 Speaker 07 He had to have been somewhere between the ages of like seven and nine.
39:17 Oprah Winfrey? OK, OK.
39:18 Speaker 07 Maybe 10, 11, really young.
39:20 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
39:21 Speaker 07 But I remember she like bent down towards me and like pointed at us. But she tried to whisper, but she just wasn't that good at whispering. But she said, you know, "Don't be like them." And, you know, at this time, you know, I was working a full-time job, you know, there while also being in school full-time. And it was interesting where I just remember I was really trying my best at this point because my father had just suffered a stroke. And I just remember like that was just very demoralizing. I'll never forget that day, like, ever.
39:50 Oprah Winfrey? When the mother is walking by with her son and she points to you and your fellow coworkers and says, "Don't be like them." But you know what? That became... A motivating force for you, it sounds like.
40:04 Speaker 07 Definitely. You know, my father was in the sanitation industry. My brother was in the sanitation industry. And, you know, I had, I had nothing but pride to be there, do what we had to do. There was nothing wrong with the profession. I loved my coworkers. I loved my bosses. And so, again, I just had to take the time to put in the work to just show people what we're made of.
40:26 Oprah Winfrey? But, but tell, share for us how people, how invisible you were to other people as a sanitation worker. Can we talk about that?
40:35 Speaker 07 So my primary job was cleaning up the dumpsters. So like a dumpster might be out, let's say in a city for like a year or so, or maybe like five months. And then when it starts breaking down, they have to bring the dumpster back to refurbish it. And so that was, that was my division. And you would never believe like what you would find in those dumpsters. So like one, I, one time I found a grenade. There was a grenade in that dumpster. There was like so many needles, glasses, et cetera, things that are not actually supposed to go into this type of trash. Because when we're actually cleaning it up, you know, people get hurt all the time.
41:10 Speaker 07 There are so many things that can go wrong when you're actually cleaning these things out. And it's just those types of moments where you kind of realize people aren't really even being considerate of.
41:21 Oprah Winfrey? Of course not.
41:22 Speaker 07 You know, because this trash has to go somewhere. And, you know, we're just one of the few people that has to, it passes through on its way to its final destination. And quite frankly, not just that, but again, even like when people were walking past us at the yards. Well, depending on what yard we're in, but sometimes if you're at a specific yard where people are walking by, people like will throw things into the dumpster that we're cleaning, like as we're cleaning it.
41:48 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. No regard, no regard for you as a human being, being a real person at all.
41:55 Speaker 07 Not in the slightest.
41:56 Oprah Winfrey? Not. Okay. So were you working to earn money for college or school? Or was it going to be a permanent job? How do you go from being a sanitation worker to Harvard?
42:08 Speaker 07 Well, I just got really lucky. What ended up happening was I was doing really good in martial arts when I was in high school. I was winning so many national titles across the country. And eventually, we were transitioning to boxing. I ended up having a really bad injury in my left shoulder. And from there, I just wanted to be able to help out my father, who was raising us by himself for like the last like 10 years. And so upon that, I ended up going to work for the sanitation company. Ended up doing like really, really, really well there. And my two coworkers like went to talk to the owner of the sun. And they realized, you know, this guy has a lot of potential. Maybe he should go and try something else.
42:50 Speaker 07 So essentially, um, the owner of the trash company pushed me to go to college. He helped me get into Bowie State University. And then from there, I had access to, I had a food scholarship. I had tutors, et cetera. And then I became a 4.0 student. And from there, I just transferred to the University of Maryland. And my father had suffered a stroke. And so that's why I started working full time as a sanitation worker, while also like being in school full time. I had the best dad in the world. So when he went down, I just knew I had to do something to keep this going. And so I didn't want to give up school. I wanted to make sure the bills kept getting paid. And so from there, I graduated speaker of the class and then went on to Harvard Law School.
43:31 Oprah Winfrey? Wow. Oh, you say it like, until I got a 4.0 and then I did this and then I. I want people to read your story in Ginny's book Mattering. But tell us about being at Harvard and the day you saw one of the custodians in the hallway. And tell us what happened in that moment.
43:51 Speaker 07 Yeah, I remember I was walking down this empty hallway and then this custodian walked towards me. And I simply just said, hi, how are you doing? And she said, are you talking to me? And I said, yes, how are you doing? And then she said again, are you talking to me? I said, yeah.
44:06 Oprah Winfrey? And that makes me want to cry, really. I know. Yeah.
44:09 Speaker 07 And I said, yeah, I'm talking to you. And she said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Students don't talk to me. Students would rather look at the wall than talk to me. Direct quote. And to which I said. I said, "That's effed up." To the degree that you want.
44:25 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
44:25 Speaker 07 To the degree that you want. Like, I'll be happy to talk to you. I would, I would love to talk to you whenever I get a chance to see you. And after that moment, you know, I just, they just sat with me for a long time.
44:36 Oprah Winfrey? Well, that sits with me too. You know why? And I hope everybody listening, that's how you let somebody know they matter. People who are the most unseen, the people holding the doors, the doorman, the sanitation workers, the custodians, the housekeepers in a hotel. I always make sure I stop and say hello to those people, regardless of what's going on.
44:57 Speaker 07 That makes the biggest difference in the world.
44:59 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
44:59 Speaker 07 And, and so when I went home, I basically just said, "I want to create some type of organization just to make sure that this population gets uplifted and gets like the treatment that they deserve." And so essentially, I ended up raising like $70,000 over the course of the rest of that year. And then we ended up creating the reciprocity effect, essentially just nonprofit that basically just wants to uplift and show love to blue collar support staff workers.
45:25 Oprah Winfrey? Didn't you have a party for all of them?
45:27 Speaker 07 That's how we were able to raise the money.
45:29 Oprah Winfrey? So you had a party for all the custodians around the school? Yeah.
45:33 Speaker 07 Exactly.
45:34 Oprah Winfrey? How did you even organize that?
45:36 Speaker 07 Well, they saw me all around the school. So when I started raising money for this event, I knew I wanted to create this big banquet for the support staff workers.
45:45 Oprah Winfrey? That's so cool.
45:46 Speaker 07 So from that moment, I was pretty much, from the point I was raising the money, because we had the event in my three L year. But I was working on it since the middle of my second year of law school.
45:59 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
45:59 Speaker 07 So from that whole point, I was raising money and also marketing for it collectively. And the reason, the way, the way I was like really happy about it, we had over 200 people turn out. And there was like a quote from one of the custodians that like sits with me till this day. She came up to me after the event and she said, she was one of the people who got an award. And she told me, "I've never seen my son so proud of me." And till this day, like, that just gives me goosebumps. And I'm just, I'm just truly grateful that we had the support to pull that off.
46:30 Oprah Winfrey? So you're in the book Mattering, Jenny's book Mattering. When you were doing this, were you doing it because you wanted to matter? Or you wanted other people to know they mattered? Or was that even a part of your thinking?
46:43 Speaker 07 You know, the way I always like thought about this question was, this is just how my dad raised me. I remember just watching my dad as I was growing up. And he just always made sure that people felt seen, people got loved. He was like the neighborhood dad, just not my dad, but the neighborhood dad. And I just think, as I go throughout my life, it was just my natural way of going about things. I just happened to have the resources at times to take this to another level. But quite frankly, I just didn't think about it. It was just the way my dad raised me to be.
47:16 Oprah Winfrey? Well, I expect to see great things from you, sir.
47:20 Speaker 07 Thank you so much.
47:21 Oprah Winfrey? You have such a big heart. And you're grounded in a value system that's going to take you a long way. And just reading your story and now having a chance to actually hear your voice and connect with you, you make me proud.
47:37 Speaker 07 Thank you so much. And I thank you so much, Jenny, for even allowing me to be a part of this book and just allowing me to be here. Thank you to both of you.
47:44 Speaker 00 It's such an honor to be able to tell your story. Thank you for sharing it.
47:47 Oprah Winfrey? Thanks, Rohan. Thank you so much for showing us how to make other people feel like they matter. It's such a powerful story. You know, most people spend most of our waking hours at work. And there are a lot of people who you research in the workplace. And you found that many people are desperate to feel like they matter at work. And a lot of people are anxious to leave because...
48:14 Oprah Winfrey? They don't feel like they matter.
48:15 Speaker 00 Yeah, we, there's a statistic, 70% of our workforce is disengaged. What is disengagement at work? When you feel like you don't matter at work, when you feel invisible or replaceable, or you have to endure rudeness and civility, that sense of feeling like you don't matter is painful. So, a coping strategy for that is actually distancing ourselves and disengaging, quiet quitting. These are, these are the results of feeling like you don't matter. So, even the least human-centered workplaces should be incentivized to lead with mattering because what we know is that engagement leads to productivity, leads to creativity, better teamwork, higher profits.
49:00 Speaker 00 So, there are ingredients to mattering. It's been studied since the 80s and I've sort of created this acronym, SED, to remind me of the ingredients, of the main ingredients of mattering. So, what does it feel like to matter at work, or in our friendships, or in our families? It's to feel significant, appreciated, invested in, and depended on. So, significant. It doesn't mean, you know, needing a toast or an award at work. What struck me was how often people said, when I asked them if they mattered, that it was the small things, that somebody appreciated what they said, or made them feel like they were critical to the team, that we couldn't have done this without you, you're an important person here, we need you here.
49:45 Speaker 00 Appreciation-
49:46 Oprah Winfrey? Can you imagine how those custodians felt after that celebration of them at Harvard?
49:50 Speaker 00 I know. Well, feeling significant is feeling noticed.
49:53 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
49:53 Speaker 00 Right? When you walk into a room, people are making eye contact and asking about you. Appreciation is, I like to think of it as appreciating the doer behind the deed. So, if you have a colleague who's always, you know, planning- You know, cocktail parties after work, happy hours. Instead of saying to them, "Thank you so much for this fun night." You could say, "Thank you for being such a community builder here. Because of you, our team is so much closer. I'm grateful to you." Feeling invested in is what we saw with Rohan. That it's having people in your life who are invested in your well-being, invested in your goals.
50:34 Speaker 00 And also, having people in your life that you're invested in their goals and in their well-being. And then the last is feeling depended on. Knowing that you are trusted and relied on in the workplace. You are trusted to do something. And that the workplace wouldn't be the same without you there.
50:51 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, I remember in mattering, you spoke to one guy who said he didn't feel like he mattered anymore because nobody depended on him anymore.
51:01 Speaker 00 That happens a lot in retirement. That happens a lot in the late stages in aging. We think about, you know, wealth span and health span. You know, how healthy we'll be, how much money we'll have to retire. We need to think about our mattering span. We need to think about how will we matter to 100 and beyond. That is what we need to live this rich, meaningful life that all of us deserve.
51:24 Oprah Winfrey? So is that the message you want to leave our listeners with? For how to matter or matter to other people?
51:29 Speaker 00 Well, I want to leave them with the idea that if you are feeling like you don't matter, you are one action away from mattering again. And here's one challenge that I've been issuing to myself, and I'll offer to you. That everyone I meet, whether they are strangers or friends or family, I picture them with a sign around their necks saying, "Tell me, do I matter?" We can all answer that question with warmth, with a smile, with kindness, with compassion instead of judgment. We are starved in this modern world. We are starved of mattering. Be a mattering agent. Be somebody that makes people feel like they matter. Boy, there's no greater calling than that.
52:12 Oprah Winfrey? Wow, so well said. We're going to end it there. There's so much more and so many more ideas in the book. I think everybody should pick up a copy of Mattering: The Secret to a Life of Deep Connection and Purpose. If you're looking for deep connection and purpose, there are lots of ideas and thoughts and stories about how to get there in this book, Mattering. It's available wherever books are sold. And I thank you again, Ina Garten. We love you so much for stopping by. Thank you, Dr. Flett, Simone, Rohan, Christina. Thank you, Ginny.
52:43 Speaker 00 Oprah, thank you. Thank you so much.
52:45 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you. Thank you for the Mattering Institute. Wow. Thanks, Oprah. Thank you. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
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