Dr. Vivek Murthy

In this episode of The Oprah Podcast, Dr. Vivek Murthy, the outgoing U. S. Surgeon General, offers his parting prescription for fighting loneliness and building lasting community. America’s top doctor shares what he’s learned from his patients, his years on the frontlines of public health, and from his father’s tiny village in India. Dr. Murthy also answers questions about how to overcome loneliness from people who Zoom in from around the country. Also referenced in this episode: Stillness Speaks by Eckhart Tolle https://amzn.to/4q94Rj5 Explore Rejuvenation Home Furnishings | Visit the Rejuvenation Website: www.rejuvenation.com http://www.rejuvenation.com/ Subscribe: https://www.youtube.com/@Oprah Follow Oprah Winfrey on Social: https://www.instagram.com/oprah/ https://www.facebook.com/oprahwinfrey/ Listen to the full podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/0tEVrfNp92a7lbjDe6GMLI https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-oprah-podcast/id1782960381

Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.

• 0:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Hi, everybody, and thank you for joining me on the Oprah Podcast. It was just about a year ago when the Sesame Street character Elmo posted a question on social media. In just nine words, he unleashed a flood of feelings for millions of people. He wrote, "Elmo is just checking in. How's everybody doing?" Well, that post was viewed over 220 million times. And I remember thinking, wow, Elmo has revealed for us that a lot of people are not okay.

• 0:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Today, we're talking about a challenging human emotion: loneliness.

• 0:40Oprah Winfrey?

  Welcome, welcome, welcome. I'm joined by U.S. Surgeon General Dr. Vivek Murthy.

• 0:46Speaker 01

  There's something else that's going on, something deeper that's actually breaking our spirits.

• 0:51Oprah Winfrey?

  As we face this new year, let's tap into this undercurrent of loneliness that many people are feeling.

• 0:57Speaker 02

  New Year's Eve is one of those holidays that I personally dread because people are in couples.

• 1:03Speaker 03

  You see a lot of people who look like they're busy, who look like they're out with their friends and have all these plans. So when I'm scrolling and seeing that, it really doesn't help.

• 1:13Oprah Winfrey?

  I'll share one of my loneliest New Year's Eves. Come midnight, I was with no one. I was calling the operator to say, "Happy New Year." If you're feeling isolated, lonely, or not a part of the world, Dr. Murthy's on a mission to restore human connection.

• 1:32Speaker 01

  The truth is, all of us are craving for something that will strengthen our spirits and fill that hole. And community is our solution.

• 1:40Oprah Winfrey?

  So, everybody, thanks for joining us on this podcast. So, we're posting this on New Year's Eve, and I know a lot of people love this holiday. And for other people, it can be a really challenging time. It brings up a lot of feelings, I know, of expectations and also regrets. And so I'm so delighted to have with me today the U.S. Surgeon General Vivek Murthy is here. He came to my tea house. Yes. I'm just happy to have you talk about this because you've been telling us for the past four years that there is a loneliness epidemic in this country.

• 2:21Oprah Winfrey?

  And I think that song, "All the lonely people, where do they all come from?" I think... All the lonely people feel even lonelier during the holidays, and particularly on an evening like this, because you think everybody else is out and everybody's doing things and here you are alone. So you have this clarion call for us. Why are we in this state where loneliness is an epidemic?

• 2:48Speaker 01

  Well, Oprah, I'm so glad that we're talking about this because 10 years ago, I don't think we would have been having conversations about issues like loneliness.

• 2:55Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 2:55Speaker 01

  Because when I went through medical school, for example, I never learned about loneliness as a health issue when I was growing up as a kid.

• 3:02Oprah Winfrey?

  Were people lonely 10 years ago too? As lonely as they are now?

• 3:05Speaker 01

  Well, I do think it's gotten worse and we can talk about some of the reasons why.

• 3:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 3:10Speaker 01

  But I think even for those of us who may have been experiencing loneliness years ago, and I include myself in that mix. As a kid, I struggled a lot with loneliness. The scariest part of the school day for me was lunchtime, walking to that cafeteria and not knowing if I'd be able to sit next to somebody. But for all of us who experienced it, for many of us, we thought we were the only ones.

• 3:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 3:30Speaker 01

  And it was only years later, Oprah, when I reconnected with classmates from school, that many of them said, "Oh, wait, you were struggling with loneliness too? So was I. I thought I was the only one." But I think that a chance to talk about it now is really important because the two things that I have learned about loneliness is that, one, it's extraordinarily common. So more than half of young people are struggling with loneliness, a third of adults.

• 3:51Oprah Winfrey?

  That is so surprising to me because it seems to me that young people are constantly, consistently on their phones, talking to somebody or texting with someone. So how could you be lonely if you're in constant contact?

• 4:06Speaker 01

  So that's the right question. And I think it comes down to the fact that whether we're lonely or not has to do with the quality of connections in our life, not the quantity. So if we have, for example, thousands of followers on social media, doesn't necessarily mean that we're not lonely. And there's nothing wrong with having thousands of followers. But if we rely on that network as our source of social sustenance, then that can be problematic. What matters is the quality.

• 4:31Oprah Winfrey?

  So it's the quality of the relationships, not the quantity. So you can have a million followers, no real connection with any of them, and when they're sleeping or not texting you or whatever, posting with you, you feel a void.

• 4:47Speaker 01

  That's right. Because the quality of connections, Oprah, is really about... Do we have people who know us deeply for who we are? Do we know others? Are we able to show up for them in a crisis? And do they show up for us? Can we be ourselves around other people? And if we're honest about it, and I include myself in this mix too, many of us probably walk around the world with masks on.

• 5:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 5:10Speaker 01

  Trying to be somebody that we think other people want us to be, or what society tells us we should be. And sometimes, though, if you have the chance to be with somebody who's a true friend, where you can take that mask off and just be yourself, you know how good that feels? How powerful it is? Those are the kind of relationships that actually contribute to a sense of connection.

• 5:29Oprah Winfrey?

  So if you don't have that in your life, a relationship, a relationship or relationships, where you can take the mask down, so you can, you know, not smile when you don't want to and all that stuff, you risk being, having this feeling of loneliness.

• 5:49Speaker 01

  That's right. That's right.

• 5:51Oprah Winfrey?

  So it's the quality of the relationships. Okay. And you suggest we also embrace solitude. I embraced that a long time ago. And solitude is actually, I have to say, is actually my happiest place. And when we're not podcasting in this room, this is one of the places I come to be with myself. So explain the difference between loneliness and isolation. Because I spend a lot of time alone, and I love it.

• 6:22Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 6:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes?

• 6:23Speaker 01

  Yeah, and Oprah, just out of curiosity, how much time do you think in a given day you spend alone in solitude?

• 6:29Oprah Winfrey?

  Um. Well, if Sedman's not here, who travels a lot, I am alone all day, all day.

• 6:40Speaker 01

  All day, and would you consider-

• 6:41Oprah Winfrey?

  With Sadie, with Sadie, the dog.

• 6:43Speaker 01

  Uh huh.

• 6:43Oprah Winfrey?

  So I don't consider that actually being alone. I feel like Sadie is a person with fur.

• 6:48Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:49Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 6:49Speaker 01

  And would you consider yourself an introvert or an extrovert?

• 6:52Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, absolutely, introvert.

• 6:53Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 6:54Oprah Winfrey?

  Absolutely.

• 6:55Speaker 01

  So this is really interesting to talk about.

• 6:57Oprah Winfrey?

  An introvert with the appearance of being extroverted. Yes.

• 7:01Speaker 01

  Was interesting, you know, a lot of people think that I'm an extrovert in my job because I have to meet lots of people and engage with communities across the country. But the truth is, I'm an introvert too, and have always been my whole life. And for people who are introverts, you need more time in solitude. So what is solitude? Well, solitude is a state of welcome aloneness. It's we're by ourselves, there aren't other people around us, but we don't feel sad. We don't feel like something is missing or lacking in our lives. And in fact-

• 7:27Oprah Winfrey?

  Don't feel bored. I mean, many times Gail will call me and say, "What are you doing, sitting with your thoughts?" Because many times I'll say, "Oh, I'm just being with my thoughts." And she goes, "What are you doing, sitting with your thoughts?" Yeah, as a matter of fact, I am, yeah. I don't feel like the need to have to talk to anybody, or do anything, or prove anything. But that is because I am, I am basically an introvert, and I refuel myself to go out into the world and act like an extrovert

• 7:54Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 7:54Oprah Winfrey?

  through those moments of solitude.

• 7:57Speaker 01

  And, and those moments of solitude, actually, we all need, whether we're introverts or extroverts. What differs is how much we need. So an extrovert might need very little solitude.

• 8:06Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 8:06Speaker 01

  An introvert might need a lot more, like us.

• 8:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 8:09Speaker 01

  But the truth is, we all need it, because something very important happens in moments of solitude. That is where we allow the noise around us to settle.

• 8:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 8:17Speaker 01

  It's when we can reflect on what's actually happening in our life. It's when we can just let ourselves be grounded and actually relax a bit. Because what's happening a lot of times, and especially in the current world, where we have so much coming at us through digital mediums and, and other platforms, is we feel like we're constantly being stimulated by something. We have to engage in a particular way, we have to perform for others. And solitude can be a time where it's just for you, where there's no pressure to be anyone, there's no pressure to do anything, it's just time for you. Now, how we experience solitude, Oprah, could be really different. For some people, solitude could be a few minutes when they're sitting on their stoop in front of their house and feeling the breeze against their face. For others, it could be settling in to just read a book by yourself, or to journal,

• 9:00Speaker 01

  and think about and reflect on what's happening in your life. It could be time in meditation or prayer. We may have different ways we experience solitude, but we all need some of it in our life.

• 9:11Oprah Winfrey?

  I feel like giving yourself that time to be with yourself is an opportunity to re-engage, refuel, restore. And I think a lot of people have anxiety when they are forced to have any kind of solitude at all. Have you experienced that?

• 9:33Speaker 01

  Absolutely.

• 9:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Any kind of like solitude other than sitting on the toilet makes people feel like, yeah, I need to be doing something or...

• 9:40Speaker 01

  And even there, like, most people will bring their devices into the bathroom these days too, right? So even that solitude has been taken away.

• 9:46Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay.

• 9:47Speaker 01

  Yeah. But you're right that there's actually a discomfort with being alone that has grown. Because one of the promises, you know, of our devices, of our phones in particular, was that we would never have to be alone. So we carry them with us everywhere.

• 10:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Right. You're never separated from it, yes.

• 10:02Speaker 01

  Right. And when we are, we feel a little anxiety, like, oh my gosh, where is it?

• 10:05Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 10:06Speaker 01

  What am I supposed to be doing right now? But I actually think one of the skills that we have to build, just like brushing our teeth or taking a shower, is actually learning how to be with ourselves and find peace in that solitude. It's an important skill that I'm trying to teach my kids also right now, who are six and eight. Sometimes they also just want to be around something all the time, but we'll sometimes as a family just sit together and say, okay, for 60 seconds, we're just going to close our eyes and we're going to breathe together. 60 seconds of solitude, that's it. So, but that's just a small way to start getting used to what it feels like to be alone. And the time where I realized that maybe it was starting to work was the other day I took my son into the pool and nobody else was there, just me and him.

• 10:50Speaker 01

  And you couldn't hear cars, you couldn't hear anything, it was just the breeze, the trees, and the two of us. And he suddenly just stopped, he looked around and he said, Papa, it's so peaceful.

• 11:01Oprah Winfrey?

  Ooh.

• 11:02Speaker 01

  And he just, we sat there for like a minute or two.

• 11:04Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, good job you're doing. Good job you're doing.

• 11:07Speaker 01

  Working on it.

• 11:08Oprah Winfrey?

  Good job you're doing. Well, we heard a lot from people who I think were really brave to share their sense of loneliness, because I think it's one of those things too, that people carry shame about being able to say out loud that they are lonely. So Elaine, we applaud you. She's a business owner who's single with no kids in New York City. And you say, hi, welcome. You say your singleness now you feel more than ever. Why is that?

• 11:37Speaker 02

  Yeah, thank you to both of you for taking the time to talk about this important topic. I'd say it's because I'm single. I live alone in an apartment by myself. Most of my friends are now married. They've moved outside of the city to the suburbs. They have young kids, very busy schedules, hectic schedules, shuttling their kids all over the place. And that has, it feels like it's left a hole in my life in terms of those social connections. And I live alone in an apartment building with millions of people right outside the door. And yet I can feel so isolated a lot.

• 12:18Oprah Winfrey?

  And is it this time of the year that you feel even more so?

• 12:22Speaker 02

  Absolutely. New Year's Eve is one of those holidays that I personally dread because people are in couples and the ball drops. And you're supposed to be with your significant other. And it is so depressing. Really.

• 12:37Oprah Winfrey?

  You know what? I understand because I remember when I was younger, uh, working as a young reporter in Baltimore. And everybody would say, what are you going to do on New Year's Eve? What are you doing on New Year's Eve? And that question that people still ask a lot creates a lot of anxiety and embarrassment because if you don't have an answer for what are you going to do on New Year's Eve, you feel left out is what you're saying.

• 13:03Speaker 02

  Absolutely. And you nailed it, the term embarrassed. I'm embarrassed to share that.

• 13:09Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 13:09Speaker 02

  I then feel very self-conscious, like what's wrong with me? I need to figure something out because things are not turning out the way that I want them to turn out. And it seems like it has for many of my friends in my social circle.

• 13:22Oprah Winfrey?

  So what's your question for Dr. Murthy?

• 13:25Speaker 02

  Yeah, um, Dr. Murthy, I was just wondering if you had any insight?

• 13:31Speaker 02

  Given someone in my situation, if I should be putting my energy into reconnecting with old friends? Or if I really should be trying to build new relationships? With people that are in more of a similar stage of life, I guess I would say.

• 13:47Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, he wrote together, "The Healing Power of Human Connection in a Sometimes Lonely World."

• 13:54Speaker 01

  Well, Elaine, first of all, thank you for sharing that story. It's not easy sometimes to share our struggles with loneliness. And as somebody who felt embarrassed for many years about my own loneliness, I know that takes courage. So, thank you. And the second thing I just want to say is that I think you're, I have felt what you're describing, that feeling that once your friends get married and have kids, it's like, where'd they go? You know, they disappeared and you don't have much interaction with them anymore. And that can be a really lonely experience. Here's how I think about old versus new friends. First, we actually all need some friends who are physically around us. You know, I have a lot of really close friends, but they're far apart. They're not in the city that I live in. And one of the things I've had to think through is how do I build some friendships locally?

• 14:38Speaker 01

  Because how often we see our friends in person really does make a difference. So, thinking about, is there somebody at work? Or in school, if I'm in school? Or in my neighborhood? Who I might want to spend a little bit more time with? They could be taking a walk. It could be just having lunch together at work one day when we're both eating lunch. Could be volunteering or helping a neighbor out who might be having trouble in their yard. But these can actually help us build the in-person connections that we need. And if you don't have old friends in person, that's really important. But the second thing I would say on this is that with old friends, quantity really does matter more than quality. Sometimes we may have a lot of people from our prior lives, school, old jobs, growing up. And we might try to spend a little bit of time with a whole lot of people. But what I would say is if you can spend a whole lot of time with a few people,

• 15:23Speaker 01

  that's a much better way to deepen those relationships. And sometimes that means showing up to where they are. You know, I used to sometimes go to my married friends who had kids. I would just go over during bath time, you know, for their kids, you know, the evening when they're giving them dinner. And I would just help out. I'd read stories sometimes. And then sometimes they would just come over and help me as well. And I would just tell them to put their mind at ease. Because keep in mind, a lot of parents, even though it doesn't look like this on the outside, they are actually very lonely, too. Because parenting is actually quite isolating. And so I would often tell them, just come over and bring your kids. Don't worry if they're screaming, if they make a mess, don't worry they're going to break something. Just be yourself and come over. And that just really lowered the barrier for us having time together.

• 16:02Oprah Winfrey?

  We'll be right back with more on my conversation with Dr. Vivek Murthy. I'm talking with Dr. Vivek Murthy about millions of Americans who are struggling with loneliness. So I think what you're saying, Elaine, this is going to call for you to step out of your box a little bit.

• 16:21Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:22Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. Because are you introverted, too, like we are?

• 16:25Speaker 02

  I am, but I'm also like you, where it can appear that I'm extroverted, but I'm really not.

• 16:30Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, yeah. So it's going to take stepping out of your box a little bit and reaching out and deciding. Don't you think it's too about what do you want your lack of loneliness to feel like? What do you want your engagement to feel like? What do you really see yourself doing? Having a vision for what that might look like, and then you, as smart as you are, taking the steps to make that happen.

• 16:54Speaker 02

  Yeah.

• 16:54Oprah Winfrey?

  I know you can do that.

• 16:56Speaker 02

  Thank you.

• 16:57Oprah Winfrey?

  And also not be embarrassed by the question of, what are you doing New Year's Eve? You know, I haven't decided yet, or I may just stay at home. Or whatever your answer is, to honor that and make it a true thing for you, I think. Because for so many years, I was embarrassed with that. I remember being in Baltimore, Elaine, years ago, when I was a young reporter. And people were asking me that question. I felt so bad. So come midnight, I was with no one. I ended up calling, this is when we had landlines. I was calling the operator to say, Happy New Year. I was calling the fire department and the police department, Happy New Year.

• 17:32Speaker 02

  I love that.

• 17:33Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes, yes, yes, yes.

• 17:35Speaker 02

  I'm going to channel you, so thank you so much.

• 17:37Oprah Winfrey?

  Okay, thank you so much. I read research that shows that Gen Z, which was so surprising to me, that this generation right now is the loneliest. The younger people are grappling with this also. Why do you think?

• 17:53Speaker 01

  Well, that's absolutely right. And it's kind of intuitive because we think young people are connected by technology all the time. Why would they be lonely? It's because a few things are going on. Number one, connecting through technology, having friends online, is not the same as having friends in person. And what has happened over time, especially as social media has become just such a deeply ingrained part of our lives, is that we've moved from having contidons to contacts, from having friends to having followers, a shift from quality of friends to quantity. And the truth is that there are certain things you can just say to people online that you would never say to them in person, right? Because you know it might be hurtful, or you might, you know, adjust how you say it. But when we're in person with other people, it's such a richer interaction.

• 18:38Speaker 01

  See, because we evolved over thousands of years as human beings to actually have in-person reactions, interactions, to not only hear what somebody is saying, but to appreciate the tone of their voice and the expression on their face and their body language.

• 18:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Which means a lot. That's why a lot of things get lost. The context gets lost in the text. Amber is 29 years old, maybe a smidge older than Jinzy, and a social media marketer from California. Amber, I hear you're living by yourself, right? For the very first time? And you describe yourself as a big-time extrovert. So what does loneliness feel like for you?

• 19:13Speaker 03

  Yeah, just a bit of backstory on me. Oprah, thank you so much. Dr. Murthy, thank you so much for taking time to talk to me. Until recently, I have never lived on my own. I've always lived with family or friends. And being an extrovert, I get recharged being around people. So now that I'm over an hour away from all of my friends and my boyfriends, I find myself struggling with loneliness, and I've never felt that before. Like, the way that it makes me feel is that I'm forgotten about and that I'm not as likable as I thought that I was.

• 19:51Speaker 01

  Amber, I'm sorry to hear that. That sounds hard to feel that way, especially after you're used to being around people for so many years. How have you been managing those feelings of loneliness?

• 20:03Speaker 03

  You know, I find myself like reaching out more proactively to my friends. But what is difficult is working in social media. Like you see a lot of people who look like they're busy, who look like they're out with their friends and have all these plans. So when I'm at home alone and I'm scrolling and seeing that, it really doesn't help. So I reach out to my friends, but then when they tell me they already have plans, I kind of feel like left out. I just like, it's such a weird place to be and I've never experienced or felt this way before.

• 20:37Oprah Winfrey?

  And it is because, is it because of what we were sharing earlier, what you were sharing with us? Is that extroverts experience loneliness more intensely?

• 20:46Speaker 01

  Yeah, well, they certainly are more likely to experience loneliness when they have shifts, life shifts like you just had, right, where all of a sudden you're taken away from a high, high volume of interaction with others. So in some ways, yes, you know, there's a greater risk for you with making a move like you're making. But Amber, what I would, I would say is that, number one, I just, I so appreciate you having the courage to talk about this openly. That's not easy.

• 21:09Oprah Winfrey?

  That's a big step, I say, yeah.

• 21:11Speaker 01

  And the second thing just is to remember that you're not the only one who's lonely. I know it seems like everyone else is connected, going to parties, hanging out with friends, you know, just surrounded by people all the time because that's what their feeds look like on social media, right? So people post about, nobody posts about the lonely moment that they're having or not knowing on a Friday night what they're going to do or not having plans for New Year's Eve. But the truth is, one thing I realized when I was just single for many years and I would feel particularly alone on Valentine's Day, I'd feel really alone, is I realized that when I started reaching out to people, that a lot of my friends were also feeling kind of alone. Sometimes because they were single, sometimes they were paired, but their partner was far away, right? And they couldn't be with somebody. So we actually just started getting together on Valentine's Day,

• 21:56Speaker 01

  recognizing that we actually weren't alone, that there were a bunch of folks who are also feeling the way we were. So I just would, I want to tell you that because I know sometimes it's not obvious based on what you see on, on social media.

• 22:08Oprah Winfrey?

  I like getting together on Valentine's Day because love isn't just for lovers.

• 22:11Speaker 01

  That's right.

• 22:12Oprah Winfrey?

  Yes.

• 22:12Speaker 01

  Yeah.

• 22:13Oprah Winfrey?

  And what was your main question, though? You wanted to ask Dr. Murphy.

• 22:16Speaker 03

  Dr. Murthy, my question to you is, how can I balance enjoying my alone time and enjoying my own company while still feeling like I'm connected to the world around me?

• 22:29Speaker 01

  Well, that's a really good question, Amber. I think one thing I would encourage you to think about is during your alone time, is to think about what do you enjoy doing? Like, is it taking walks or exercising? Is it reading? Is it journaling and reflecting? Like, what is it that actually gives you some joy? And just to recognize and-

• 22:49Oprah Winfrey?

  What is that? How would you answer that?

• 22:50Speaker 01

  Yeah, do you know?

• 22:52Speaker 03

  Yeah, I love working out and I love music. So I think those two things would be what I enjoy the most.

• 22:58Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 22:59Speaker 01

  That's great. There's no prescription for how much time you should be spending alone in that way. Like, this is really, it's different from person to person, introvert to extrovert. But what's really important is that you have at least some time on a regular basis. Ideally, a few minutes each day where you can just be on your own, let that noise settle and just be yourself. And if you do that on a regular basis and it feels good, you can do a little bit more, right? But making sure you protect it is important because one of the things that we were just talking about earlier is there are all kinds of forces around us that siphon our attention away, right? That pull us into something else, whether it's spending more time on social media or reading about what's happening in the world. And none of those things are bad in and of themselves, right? It's good to be informed about the world.

• 23:44Speaker 01

  Sometimes it's good that it can come from social media. But that can suck up all of the white space in our lives, right? So that before it used to be that whenever we were meeting a friend for dinner and they were late, by 10 minutes, we waited for 10 minutes and we just thought, we watched what was happening around us. That was just time when we were on our own. But we fill all of that time now with our devices. So I would just encourage you also just to think during those times of solitude, to protect them, right? To keep your devices out of it, you know, and just make sure that even if it's just for a few minutes, you have that time on your own and the rest of your day, you know, can be spent with people as you wish. But we all need that solitude, even if it's just a little bit each day.

• 24:24Oprah Winfrey?

  You know, I would recommend there's a book that's been so- So helpful to me with accepting and embracing solitude. It's Eckhart Tolle's book called Stillness Speaks. I was gonna tell you, you should get that book, but you know what? I'll get your address from my producers and I'll send it to you. And that book is always by my bedside table. And I just read like a little passage. And it allows me to like go in and inside and embrace the stillness in ways that are more mindful. So I will get that to you. Stillness speaks. And you look so beautiful. Thank you for joining us. I mean, my God, you got up and did your makeup. It's gorgeous.

• 25:01Speaker 03

  They only for you guys, because like I said, I work from home, so typically a potato on the other end, but thank you so much. And I really appreciate your time.

• 25:10Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you. Thank you, Amber. Devlin works for the government in Washington DC. Devlin, I hear that you're experiencing a different kind of loneliness. Tell us what's going on with you.

• 25:23Speaker 04

  So first off, thank you, Ms. Winfrey and Dr. Murthy for this opportunity. I lost both of my parents a couple of years ago. And we were very close. We were extremely close. I would tell my parents everything. And the different type of loneliness I'm feeling is like not is different than grief. Because grief is something different. The loneliness I'm experiencing is missing them in times of good news.

• 25:51Speaker 04

  Different things that I experience in life that, you know.

• 25:55Oprah Winfrey?

  You want to share. You want them to be here to celebrate and share.

• 25:59Speaker 04

  Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am. My question for Dr. Murthy would be, can you put into words the difference between grief and loneliness?

• 26:07Speaker 01

  Well, Devlin, first, I'm so sorry about the loss of your parents. I think that's one of the biggest losses that we can experience in life.

• 26:14Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah, a lot of people feel completely unanchored. I remember when Gail lost her mother. The night her mother died, she called me and said, I lost my anchor today. So you feel unanchored.

• 26:26Speaker 04

  Yes, definitely. Yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

• 26:29Speaker 01

  So that's a big loss, and I think giving yourself grace and space to recognize that that's not a loss we ever fill in 100%. You know, and we don't forget about the parents we lost. That hole will be there. But the pain we experience can diminish over time, and part of what helps in doing that is, number one, to be able to speak openly about our parents and about what we're going through. I'd be able to share who they were, what their joys there were, that they brought to your life. Like, what kind of people were they? How did they inspire you? To be able to talk to people you care about and love about your parents is important. To be able also to talk to others who are going through this kind of loss can be incredibly helpful, Devlin.

• 27:11Speaker 01

  And sometimes we think that because somebody went three, four, five months, you know, after a loss, they're probably fine now. We're not fine, right? These losses stay with us for a long time. We miss our parents for years. My grandfather, who I was very close to, my maternal grandfather, died when I was in 10th grade. And I still miss him. I still think about the multiplication tables we used to do together about the walks he would take me on to the ice cream store. And whenever something good happens in my life, I still wish he was there. So that won't go away, but the pain that we feel can turn to pride, you know, and to positive memories.

• 27:50Oprah Winfrey?

  I always think of it this way, Devlin, too. I know this, I have experiences because I've had 21 dogs and watched each of them pass in their their journey to wherever we go when we leave this earthly plane. And they've taught me a lot about living and dying, watching my animals. And I can feel that some of them have little souls and some have had bigger souls and, you know, a bigger imprint on my life. And I feel this for all the people who I have loved who've gone, that I now have angels I can call by name. I feel the presence of Maya Angelou,

• 28:34Oprah Winfrey?

  Sidney Poitier, now Quincy Jones, my own father and mother. I feel the essence and spirit of them in ways that I could not tap into when they were in the physical body. And so when you were saying, Devlin, that you wanted people here, wanted your parents here for the joyous times Be able to share wonderful moments. I believe that they are here. They are as much here as they've ever been. And they are smiling on you in those joyous moments in ways that if you open the aperture of your heart space to allow yourself to feel the spirit of them, you can feel their presence in ways that you could not when they were in the density of the flesh.

• 29:18Oprah Winfrey?

  I believe that they are right here with you now. And not only are you speaking their names to people on a daily basis, but now you're on this podcast, reaching millions of people, speaking their names.

• 29:32Speaker 04

  I appreciate that. I truly believe that. I truly believe that. I don't know if you recall meeting my mother back on your Life You Want Tour in DC, the DC stop. You met her, and that was one of the biggest pleasures of her life.

• 29:49Oprah Winfrey?

  That's so meaningful to me. Thank you so much. And what was your mother's name? What was your father's name?

• 29:55Speaker 04

  Margarita Gardner, Tonnell Gardner.

• 29:57Oprah Winfrey?

  Oh, see? We speak your names. We speak your names.

• 30:01Speaker 04

  I appreciate that opportunity.

• 30:03Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Devlin. We'll be back in a moment with Dr. Vivek Murthy. We're back with Dr. Vivek Murthy, and we're talking about loneliness. Karina, a mother of two, runs a daycare in New York State. And I hear that you're on a mission to end loneliness. You and Dr. Vivek need to get together. Okay? Tell us what you're up to.

• 30:28Speaker 05

  Absolutely. I am so honored and thrilled to be here because, as you said, Oprah, I am truly passionate about this. And so now what I've done as a business owner is, from a personal need, I feel that sometimes being in business can tend to get a little bit lonely.

• 30:51Speaker 05

  And so I I took it upon myself to start a women's um business networking group. I put events together for women that are in business to attend. And as I started doing that and telling friends and neighbors about it, um, I quickly realized that there is a hunger for connection out there.

• 31:16Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah.

• 31:16Speaker 05

  It's it's such an uh like an innate, natural need for humans.

• 31:22Oprah Winfrey?

  And so you have experienced you what what Vivek talks about in his book, the healing power of connection through community.

• 31:28Speaker 05

  Yes.

• 31:28Oprah Winfrey?

  You have experienced that yourself, bringing people together. Yes.

• 31:33Speaker 05

  Yes, I have and I and and I have experienced firsthand through these small events in my tiny little, you know, space in the world. Um, the the feeling that these women leave the events with. They we they come in feeling a certain way. And after sharing and laughing and sometimes crying about things that we share, um, they they leave feeling elevated and they leave feeling alive.

• 32:00Oprah Winfrey?

  Can I ask you this? Did you do this specifically to um do whatever you could to eliminate loneliness in the people that you were seeing around you?

• 32:10Speaker 05

  So it it first started with my need as as a business owner. Um, I wanted to connect with other business owners that had similar challenges like like mine. And then, as you, you know, as you start talking to people, um, to to women around um town, everyone was telling me, well, I'm not a business owner myself, but I would love to be a part of something like this. I need, this is what I've heard.

• 32:35Oprah Winfrey?

  So.

• 32:36Speaker 05

  I need to be a part of something like this.

• 32:38Oprah Winfrey?

  Yeah. So your big question?

• 32:41Speaker 05

  My big question is, why are people so afraid to be alone? And where does that fear come from?

• 32:49Speaker 01

  That's a really good question. And let me just say, I'm so excited and proud of what you're doing. I mean, this is extraordinary. You're helping build community. You're helping solve the loneliness epidemic in our country and in the world. So, thank you.

• 33:00Oprah Winfrey?

  You're doing exactly what he says in the book that we all need to do. And you've already done it. You've reached out, you've made the connections, you understand the healing power of that.

• 33:09Speaker 01

  Yeah. I think there are two big reasons why people are scared to be alone. I think one is cultural. I think we live in a very extroverted society and we essentially tell people, if you're alone on Friday nights, if you're alone on holidays, if you choose to be alone, then something's wrong with you and maybe you're not desirable in some way. I think the second reason, though, is actually biological and evolutionary, which is that we evolved over thousands of years to need one another. And when we were hunters and gatherers, like the person who said, you know what, I can do it on my own, I don't need anybody else, that person got eaten.

• 33:41Oprah Winfrey?

  I was gonna say, was devoured.

• 33:43Speaker 01

  Yes. Or they starved, you know, because they didn't have enough food. But it was the people who said, you know what, we're gonna come together, build trusted relationships. Those are the people who survived and did well. So when we're separated from one another, it actually induces this stress state, a physiological stress state in our body. And when that's, and that can make us feel fearful. It can also have biological impacts on us, increasing inflammation in our body and increasing our risk of heart disease and dementia, as well as depression and anxiety. So they are both cultural and biological reasons why people are scared to be alone. But I do think, to come back to something Oprah and I were talking about earlier, it's really important to recognize that some solitude in your life is important, that being lonely

• 34:27Speaker 01

  and being alone aren't the same thing, that sometimes the welcome aloneness that we all need from time to time, to just be with ourselves and reflect and let our thoughts settle and just be without doing anything, that's important for all of us, whether it's a few minutes a day or a few hours.

• 34:41Speaker 05

  Yeah.

• 34:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Thank you so much. Thanks for the work that you're doing, continued success in bringing people together in ways that make them feel more connected. Thank you so much, Karina.

• 34:53Speaker 01

  Thanks so much, Karina.

• 34:55Speaker 05

  Thank you both.

• 34:56Oprah Winfrey?

  Dr. Murthy, so you're going to be leaving your post soon, and there's so many health issues that we need to address in America. What would be your specific parting prescription for us now? Thank you so much for listening. Back in a moment. Thank you all for making the time to be with us. I'm with Dr. Vivek Murthy.

• 35:19Speaker 01

  There are a lot of health issues we're dealing with, Oprah, but one of the questions I have been grappling with the most during my time as Surgeon General over two terms now has been the question of what is the deeper root cause of so much of the pain and unhappiness that I've been seeing all across our country and really around the world? And the explanations that we see in the papers, economic challenges, violence, discrimination, other structural challenges, these are all real. They contribute. There's something else that's going on, something deeper that's actually breaking our spirits.

• 35:53Oprah Winfrey?

  You're right.

• 35:53Speaker 01

  And contributing to this crisis of spirit. And what I've come to realize now, after all of these stories and digging into the data and research and reflecting deeply on this, is that there are three critical forces for fulfillment that we need in our life that have been eroding. Relationships, purpose, and service. These three elements, relationships, purpose, and service, are the essence of community.

• 36:18Oprah Winfrey?

  Yep.

• 36:19Speaker 01

  And community is what sustains us. It's both good-for-our-life satisfaction, but also for our life expectancy because it improves our physical and mental health. It helps us deal with adversity when it comes about. And my hope for the country I love and for the world that I hope my children will inherit one day and all of our children is that we recommit to grounding our lives in relationships, purpose, and service. That we recognize that, yes, there are forces around us that are, especially for young people, telling them that success is about fame and wealth and power, and that triad of success should guide their life. But I believe the triad of fulfillment, relationships, purpose, and service,

• 37:04Speaker 01

  is what we need now more than ever. Oprah, when I have moments when I feel anxious about the future, when I find myself worried about whether I'm doing enough in terms of my own accomplishments or whether I'm reaching enough people, et cetera, and I have those moments, I try to remember the lesson that my patients taught me over the years, the patients who were at their end of life, who I was so privileged to sit next to and hold their hands when they were reflecting in their final moments on what really mattered, what made for a good life. What's interesting to me, Oprah, is they never talk about how many followers they had on social media, or how much money was in their bank account, or how big their corner office was,

• 37:49Speaker 01

  or how long their resume was. What they talk about were people. The people they loved. The people they helped. The people whose lives they touched. It's so clear that in the most important moments of life, when only the most meaningful strands remain, that is what rises to the top. And I don't want us to have to wait till the end of our life to realize that. I feel like if we make the decision today that we are going to remake our lives, and the elements of the world that we touch, whether it's our workplaces, our schools, our neighborhoods, around these critical elements of relationships, purpose, and service, we can build a fulfilling life for ourselves. We can create a future for our kids that we are proud of. A future that embraces them,

• 38:34Speaker 01

  a future that ultimately supports their well-being.

• 38:37Oprah Winfrey?

  I love this so much. I think relationships, purpose, and service, and particularly, I have found that when you take whatever job it is you do in life, whatever you think is your career, whatever you think is your calling, and you flip the paradigm to one of service, that I'm going to use my talent, I'm going to use my gifts, I'm going to use whatever it is I am skilled to do in life in service to something that is greater than myself, everything changes for you. And that leads to more purpose in your life and to better relationships in your life. So I think it all starts with, how do I use my life in service to something bigger than myself?

• 39:18Speaker 01

  I'm so glad you said that, Oprah, because there's a very interesting thing that's happening, which is that there are forces around us that are telling us that the way to fill the emptiness that many of us feel is to focus more and more on ourselves, right? To acquire more, to achieve more.

• 39:34Oprah Winfrey?

  To have more.

• 39:35Speaker 01

  To have more. Exactly, to do more. But it turns out that when we focus on connecting to something bigger than ourselves, that's actually when we find joy. It's why service is one of the most powerful antidotes to loneliness. It's why building community is one of the most important things we can do for our health and well-being. And one of the people who taught me this was actually my father, who said a very interesting and unexpected thing to me one day. He said, Vivek, the...

• 40:02Speaker 01

  First time I really felt the emptiness, that feeling that something was missing in my life, and it was painful and it was gnawing, was when I left my village in India. And I was surprised he said that because his life in the village was hard. They lived in extreme poverty. They didn't have money to buy shoes or slippers. There wasn't enough money to buy food, you know, for dinner each night. Life was hard. But in the village, people took care of each other. They looked out for each other's kids. If you were hungry, they had you come over and share in whatever little they had. People also knew each other, not just their names, but they knew their stories. They spent time with one another. And in each other, they found purpose in contributing to each other's lives. My grandfather would, even though despite the poverty they lived through,

• 40:47Speaker 01

  he would spend a few weeks every year traveling from village to village, raising money so they could build a youth hostel, so students could study in the village. And people would say to him, "You're irresponsible. Your own family doesn't have enough to eat. Why are you going around and raising money for these other kids?" And he would always just say, "Those kids are our kids too." That sense of purpose, that we are here to take care of each other, contribute to each other's lives, that's what my father had in the village. He had relationships. He had a culture of service. He had a sense of purpose. And that's what we need to rebuild in all of our lives. He wrote it over time, but it doesn't mean it can't be rebuilt. And it doesn't mean that that's what we're not all called to. I think the trap we fall into is into thinking that we're the only ones

• 41:32Speaker 01

  who are feeling lonely, who are feeling that emptiness inside. The truth is, all of us are craving for something that will strengthen our spirits and fill that hole. And community is our solution.

• 41:43Oprah Winfrey?

  Well, thank you for Together, for the healing power of human connection in a sometimes lonely world. Thank you so much.

• 41:50Speaker 01

  Thank you so much, Oprah.

• 41:51Oprah Winfrey?

  Dr. Murthy's book is called Together: The Healing Power of Human Connection in a Sometimes Lonely World. Thank you for listening and watching on YouTube. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.