Pod Insights The Oprah Podcast Claire Keegan: “Small Things Like These”| Oprah’s Book Club About this episode Oprah’s Book Club: Presented by Starbucks premieres with a New York Times bestseller which the newspaper named one of their 100 best books of the 21st century: Small Things Like These. Oprah sits down with award-winning author Claire Keegan at a Starbucks café to discuss this 109th book club pick. Joined by a live audience of readers - over coffee - Claire shares her writing process, takes questions, and explains some of the main themes in this modern masterpiece.
The heroic tale takes us on a journey of discovering what matters most in life and why it’s important to make brave decisions. Oprah will zoom with a woman in Ireland who experienced firsthand what the characters in the story encounter. We’ll also meet two Irish High School students who encouraged their entire class to read the book.
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Small Things Like These https://amzn.to/4wGHfEO by Claire Keegan, published by Grove Atlantic and available now wherever books are sold, with the audio version also available here https://rbmediaglobal.com/audiobook/9781696604925/.
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Visit your local Starbucks café and enjoy a curated beverage pairing - Starbucks Christmas Blend https://www.starbucks.com/menu/product/2123796/hot - a dark roast with notes of spiced chocolate and spruce tips, perfect for the holidays.
Also referenced in this episode, "Girl in the Tunnel: My Story of Love and Loss as a Survivor of the Magdalene Laundries https://www.amazon.com/Girl-Tunnel-Survivor-Magdalene-Laundries/dp/1785374524" by Maureen Sullivan and New Decade Film's documentary, "Ireland's Dirty Laundry https://irelandsdirtylaundry.com/."
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Oprah Winfrey? Hi, it's Oprah, and welcome to my podcast. I am delighted and excited to begin sharing conversations with experts, with thought leaders, with writers around the human experience and what really matters in this one precious life we have, as poet Mary Oliver famously has said. We're starting off with a fascinating conversation with acclaimed Irish author Claire Keegan about her novella, "Small Things Like These." Claire is a brilliant writer and also quite funny. She had so many insights to share. She had me and everybody in our audience at Starbucks
0:44 Oprah Winfrey? really seeing things in a new light, and I hope you enjoy it. And I appreciate so much you joining the Oprah Podcast.
0:54 Oprah Winfrey? Hi, everybody, and thank you so much for joining us. I think this is so cool. Claire Keegan has traveled all the way from Ireland. Let's welcome her here to Starbucks.
1:04 Speaker 01 Thank you. I think sadness actually makes you think about what life is like for others. I think being upset is really important so you can think about what others go through.
1:15 Oprah Winfrey? We are ahaing all over the town, all over the Starbucks cafe. That is such a big aha.
1:31 Oprah Winfrey? Starbucks time of day.
1:35 Oprah Winfrey? This is Claire Keegan, everybody.
1:40 Speaker 02 Stand by, please.
1:41 Oprah Winfrey? OK, great.
1:44 Speaker 02 Anytime.
1:44 Oprah Winfrey? Hi, everybody, and thank you so much for joining us. I think this is so cool. We are bringing great books, great coffee, and great conversation together in the best place to do it, Starbucks.
1:59 Oprah Winfrey? Now, listen to this. Every month, I'm gonna have a new book club pick. And Starbucks is going to pair a delicious cup of curated coffee. The pairing for this book is Christmas Blend Coffee, which pairs perfectly with the December book, because it takes place, wouldn't you know it, at Christmas time. And then we'll have conversation with the author inside Starbucks cafes all around the country. Books, coffee, and conversation. I love this idea because I think that sharing ideas and connecting in person makes life sweeter and definitely more fun. So, here's the thing. You are the very first audience.
2:45 Oprah Winfrey? So, thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
2:50 Oprah Winfrey? So, my 109th book club pick was listed by The New York Times as one of the 100 best books of the 21st century. And I had never read it. It is a novella. It's small, only 114 pages. And it's by Claire Keegan. And it's called Small Things Like These.
3:12 Oprah Winfrey? Small Things Like These is set in 1985 in the small town of New Ross, Ireland. At that time, in Ireland, the Catholic Church held power over the culture.
3:25 Oprah Winfrey? Author Claire Keegan's story centers around Bill Furlong, a husband and father of five daughters who runs a coal delivery service. The town is home to a convent and one of Ireland's Magdalen laundries, also known as mother and baby homes, run by Catholic nuns.
3:47 Oprah Winfrey? For decades, it was an open secret that tens of thousands of young women in Ireland who were pregnant out of wedlock were housed in these institutions against their will. They were forced to work in the laundries without pay or the freedom to leave.
4:06 Oprah Winfrey? While delivering coal to the convent and laundry, Bill Furlong encounters a young woman who has been locked in a shed, no food, water, or even a toilet. She tells him her baby has been taken away from her. As the story progresses, Bill confronts memories of his own childhood, being born out of wedlock, and how the local people and even his own wife encourage him to ignore the young woman locked in the shed. Claire Keegan's exquisite writing examines Bill's struggle to go against the church, and the dire consequences weighing on him. On page 113, she writes, "He found himself asking,
4:48 Oprah Winfrey? was there any point in being alive without helping one another?" Our audience has read this book, and don't you think it's a classic? Yeah. It's a classic. How many of you have read it more than one time already? More than one time already? Okay, that's really good. So I am so happy that the author of this beautiful story, Small Things Like These, Claire Keegan, has traveled all the way from Ireland. Let's welcome her here to Starbucks.
5:20 Speaker 01 Thank you.
5:25 Oprah Winfrey? Well done, well done. And thank you for being here. Thank you for being here.
5:29 Speaker 01 Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.
5:31 Oprah Winfrey? When we meet the main character, Bill Furlong, is this somebody you knew? Or a composite of somebody you knew? Or how did you come? Was he what came to your mind first when you were writing this story?
5:49 Speaker 01 No, he's a complete invention, not based on anyone I know. And I didn't even have a conversation with a coal man before or during or after writing this book. I just made him up. But I think the imagination, I think language is older and richer than we are. And when you start playing around with it, it gives you sometimes what you're looking for. I started writing a short story about a boy who goes with his father to a Christian Brothers boarding school to deliver a load of coal. And the boy, when he opens the coal house door, finds another boy.
6:31 Speaker 01 Just about his own age, locked inside. And his father bids him to just come on and lock the door. And I was really interested in what you would consider your father to be.
6:45 Oprah Winfrey? If he told you that?
6:47 Speaker 01 Yeah, if he'll do that to a boy just like you. And then why wouldn't he do it to you? And is it all right that he won't do it to you? And he'll do it to somebody else? And then I thought, well, what am I gonna do with that? I was interested in that, but what am I gonna do with that? Because the child always is living at the mercy of who's minding him.
7:07 Oprah Winfrey? Yes, yes.
7:08 Speaker 01 So there's nothing really the boy can do but carry it. So then my preoccupation shifted to what if it was the father's story? And it was a longer story. And it was the story of what the father does with that. Because he's an adult and he's, he's a male.
7:27 Oprah Winfrey? And he has agency and he can do something.
7:30 Speaker 01 He can do something.
7:30 Oprah Winfrey? Whereas a child wouldn't be able to do something. I love the way authors think. I love the way stories arise from nowhere. And you were able to put words on a page and leave us with something that is so profound. And I heard that you said stories go looking for their authors, that they even exist already. Do you believe that?
7:56 Speaker 01 I do, I really do. I don't know why I believe that, but um.
8:01 Oprah Winfrey? That the story finds you. You don't find the story.
8:04 Speaker 01 I do, and I think you have to listen for it and wait for it. And not force it and play with it. And sometimes just be really patient while it's making up its mind. I know, I know you have dogs. You know when you, you're lazy and you don't walk your dog on a wet day?
8:20 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
8:20 Speaker 01 And the nose keeps coming?
8:21 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
8:22 Speaker 01 There?
8:23 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
8:24 Speaker 01 Well, I, I, I think that stories, when they start doing that to you, it's time to either write them. Or then they'll go off and find somebody else who will.
8:33 Oprah Winfrey? Really?
8:34 Speaker 01 Yeah.
8:35 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. When did you know that you were a writer? That you were able to meet the story?
8:40 Speaker 01 For this one, you mean?
8:41 Oprah Winfrey? At any time. When you first recognized that you were able to recognize the story that had come to you? And to take that and put in, form words on a page?
8:53 Speaker 01 I never have and I don't have it yet. I've never felt that. I don't know if it'll come again. You don't know if it'll turn into something even. Even when you're in the middle of it, you don't know if you'll finish it. Um, I couldn't say that I've ever known that.
9:11 Oprah Winfrey? Okay, I've heard that you never give a story a title until it's finished. That you don't do that. That the title comes to you. You're searching for the title, even as you're writing it.
9:25 Speaker 01 I've no talent for titles at all. I really don't. I don't know what to call something. I think what you call something is actually a different talent to writing movement. When you're writing a story, you're writing movement over time.
9:41 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
9:41 Speaker 01 And then naming it. Sometimes when, you know, I've been teaching creative writing for 30 years. And sometimes there'll be somebody in the group who'll know exactly what to call it.
9:52 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
9:52 Speaker 01 And they have that talent. They can name it.
9:56 Oprah Winfrey? That's a separate talent.
9:57 Speaker 01 I think it is.
9:58 Oprah Winfrey? Than actually writing it.
10:00 Speaker 01 I think so.
10:01 Oprah Winfrey? So when did "Small Things Like These" occur to you? You know, you make a reference to it here on page 11. "Some nights, Furlong lay there with Eileen, going over small things like these."
10:13 Speaker 01 I think it was the best thing that I could pick out of the book. And my editors couldn't come up with anything better.
10:21 Oprah Winfrey? Well, we love the title, right?
10:22 Speaker 01 Great.
10:23 Oprah Winfrey? I think it's a precious title. And what does the title mean to you?
10:27 Speaker 01 It means everything to me. I think we all, you know, you live your life and over time. And how you use the minutes and the hours and the days that build into years becomes your character.
10:44 Speaker 01 That becomes who you are and becomes who you treat people, and how you relate to people and how people relate to you. And it's also about the things you could have done, which you haven't.
10:55 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
10:56 Speaker 01 Or the horrible things you could have said, which you didn't.
10:58 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
10:59 Speaker 01 Whatever it is, turns into a life.
11:04 Oprah Winfrey? Turns into a life. Small things like these turns into life. I love that so much because it reminds me of one of many great lessons I learned from my mentor and teacher Maya Angelou, who said to me that your legacy isn't one thing, but your legacy is every life you touch. It's everyone you encounter during the day. It's how you treat every single human being you encounter. You're leaving and building your legacy every day, from the small things and the extraordinary things. So you said that Bill Furlong wasn't inspired by anybody you know. So often, we read about main characters who are good people, who make a wrong decision or do something bad,
11:48 Oprah Winfrey? you know, what we're talking about, and then have to recover from it. This story is so different. How did you develop him?
11:56 Speaker 01 I just follow somebody physically through time. You see, I believe your feet never lie. I'm really interested in horses. And one of the things that horses and starting horses taught me is that your feet never lie. You know, you can go up into your head in that place above your eyebrows and you can say something that absolutely isn't true is true because you've come to believe it. But your feet never lie. So one of the things I do when I'm writing is I just follow somebody's feet through time because that'll lead to the truth of what they want.
12:32 Oprah Winfrey? What the hell?
12:39 Oprah Winfrey? What'd you just say? Did you all follow that? Okay. You follow someone's feet through time because that will lead them to what they want.
12:48 Speaker 01 Your feet are always after your objective desire.
12:51 Oprah Winfrey? Uh huh.
12:52 Speaker 01 It's always true. Even if you're a con artist, your feet are going after whoever it is or whatever it is you want to con.
13:00 Oprah Winfrey? Uh huh.
13:02 Speaker 01 So it's just, I don't, I don't try and analyze what somebody is thinking. But your feet are just hooked on to your emotions. And your emotions also are always accurate.
13:14 Oprah Winfrey? Well, I had never thought this before. I love the idea of having a thought I never thought before. I never thought this before. I also, you've said that elegance to me is writing just enough. And about Bill's character, you said a longer novel would not have suited his personality. I'm so curious how you came to know that.
13:36 Speaker 01 Because he's a man of few words and he, he isn't a gossip and he doesn't say very much. I actually think he wouldn't make a long night shorter.
13:45 Oprah Winfrey? Uh huh.
13:45 Speaker 01 You know?
13:51 Speaker 01 So he's not, he's not somebody who goes on and he needs, he needs to keep busy. And I think he likes the repetition of work. And I also think he's kind of afraid of falling apart if he stops.
14:02 Oprah Winfrey? Yes, but isn't he also in that period that so many men have in their lives, and women, of course, but I never thought of men thinking about these things. Women actually talk about these things, like, what is it all for? What is it, what, what am I even doing? What is it all for?
14:19 Speaker 01 Yes, I think he's that thoughtful type of a person who's asking what he's doing with his time.
14:25 Oprah Winfrey? Uh huh.
14:27 Speaker 01 I, I think also it's part of his upset. Is he doing what he should have done with his life, with his time?
14:35 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
14:36 Speaker 01 As a father, as a husband, as a man. Also, I think in that time leading up to Christmas, we all wear some type of a shield. And I think especially if you have children, that at Christmas time, that shield grows a bit thinner.
14:51 Oprah Winfrey? Why?
14:52 Speaker 01 Because you're supposed to be a Christian. You're supposed to be thinking about how you're getting on. You're supposed to pause.
15:04 Oprah Winfrey? And look at your life.
15:05 Speaker 01 I think so.
15:06 Oprah Winfrey? Mm-hmm. So I want to ask the audiences, had you all heard or knew about the Magdalen laundries before this? You all had. Oh, you very educated people. I have to tell you, I had never, who had not heard? Not heard, not heard. I had not heard. And who had heard? Y'all are, I'm impressed. I had, I had never heard.
15:30 Oprah Winfrey? In the dedication of the book, you write, the story is dedicated to the women and children who suffered time in Ireland's mother and baby homes and the Magdalen laundries. Our audience came with plenty of questions. Katie, where are you? Go ahead.
15:46 Speaker 03 Hi. I had a family member who went through an experience like that. She was a teen mom, gave up her baby, and she just recently reunited with her son, almost like 50 years later, and had a really beautiful story and a beautiful reunion. But I was also wondering if you, I knew you talked about your, if you had a personal connection to the characters, but did you have any personal connection to the laundries or anyone that you knew of that had the similar experiences that these women had?
16:14 Speaker 01 No, I didn't. I didn't have any relative or anybody, anybody I knew in the laundries.
16:23 Speaker 01 It was just all over the news for a long time in Ireland, and I think the question I was interested in was, why did people do nothing when the police knew, the social workers knew, and the parents knew?
16:39 Speaker 01 The Catholic Church knew, the priests knew, the nuns knew, and nobody, nobody did anything. And I, I wasn't able to not ask the question while I was, was writing. Really, I think the book is a response to my asking the question.
16:56 Oprah Winfrey? I want to take a moment now to introduce you to Maureen Sullivan, who was just 12 years old when she was taken from her family and sent to live in one of the laundries. And she wrote about her experience in her memoir called Girl in the Tunnel. These are excerpts from the documentary Ireland's Dirty Laundry, which was produced by New Decade Films. Here's a brief look at Maureen's story. Take a look.
17:25 Speaker 01 Our father had died. He died.
17:27 Speaker 04 Just before I was born and my mother remarried.
17:31 Oprah Winfrey? In 1964, 12-year-old Maureen Sullivan, who grew up in an impoverished home, says she bravely made a confession to a nun at her school.
17:40 Speaker 04 She called me into the office and I told her that my stepfather was hurting me. It was sexual abuse and I was only a little child. The next day, there was a man drives the laundry van and he came to collect me. I was innocent. I thought I was going to go to school. The day I arrived, I knew by the two nuns that came out to greet me, I knew straight away, this is not going to be good. In the morning, you get up early and you clean the corridors. One morning, you might polish them. The next morning, you'd shine them. The next morning, you'd wash them again. And then you go to mass. Then you come back and you have your breakfast. And then you go on to work in the laundry.
18:24 Speaker 04 If you maybe weren't working quick enough, you'd get a dig of the cross into you. They used to carry these rosary beads around, and big, long rosary beads. But the cross was really big on it. And they'd put their two fingers around the cross and they'd just dig it in. There'd be bruises on you for weeks after it.
18:43 Oprah Winfrey? Maureen says when inspectors came to the laundry, the nuns would hide her in dark tunnels for hours without food or water.
18:52 Speaker 04 It was just horrific. And you were afraid to talk about it. And they went to the church covered up. Nobody cared. I think I thought I was there for life. And of course, it's in your head. Am I ever going to get out of here? Is this my life now?
19:12 Oprah Winfrey? Maureen is zooming in with us today from her home in Carlow, Ireland. Maureen, hi there. Hi.
19:18 Speaker 04 Hello. Hello.
19:20 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you for being with us today.
19:22 Speaker 04 Thank you.
19:23 Oprah Winfrey? I know you've read Claire's book. What kind of emotions came up for you when you were reading Small Things Like These?
19:31 Speaker 04 Yes, a lot of emotions came up, but when you could get deep into it, I liked the way she told the truth about the nuns, the way that they were able to bribe people, the power that they had in Ireland. I think that's the first time that it's ever really come out that strong.
19:52 Oprah Winfrey? Really? Even with all the stories in the news?
19:54 Speaker 04 Yes.
19:55 Oprah Winfrey? Because one of the things Claire was sharing with us is that, first of all, this was happening in the 80s and the last laundry was closed when in 1996.
20:04 Speaker 04 I think so, yes.
20:05 Oprah Winfrey? 96. I mean, this is very, very recent that this was happening. And I hear that you felt so broken from the trauma in your 30s that you even attempted suicide.
20:18 Speaker 04 I did, yes. Yeah, I was in a very dark place. I think you're trying to survive in your younger life and you're working and you're trying to survive. And then all of a sudden, then it just hits you, some stage of your life, if you don't deal with it and try and heal, it will hit you in a big way. And that's what happened with me.
20:40 Oprah Winfrey? How old were you when you were thinking of killing yourself?
20:43 Speaker 04 I was in my early 30s, 34, 35, yeah.
20:46 Oprah Winfrey? Early, early 30s. So what is the thing that has helped you to heal? First of all, you know, God bless you. I read your book, which is available on Amazon. It's called Girl in the Tunnel. So those of you who have read Small Things Like These, if you want a true, true story of what really happened, Maureen's book, Girl in the Tunnel. I just can't imagine.
21:16 Oprah Winfrey? The kind of courage and will it takes to be you. You are one strong, powerful woman.
21:23 Speaker 04 Thank you. Thank you so much.
21:25 Oprah Winfrey? Just one strong, powerful woman. To come through what you did, the assault, abuse and constant sexual molestation from your stepfather. And your mother knew. Your mother knew. And I love that first chapter in Girl in the Tunnel when you say, what did I do wrong? What did I do wrong? You simply told on him and by telling on your stepfather, who was constantly sexually assaulting you. You then were sent to the laundries to an even worse existence.
21:59 Speaker 04 Yeah. It's, I was punished.
22:03 Speaker 04 And not only that, I think, then when I, I think the part that really hurt me is when you try to heal and you try to bring your story out and heal yourself, then they denied, they were really trying to cover my story up and still are. And that's why I wrote my book. They really want to hide my story. They don't want anybody knowing that that's what they've done with an innocent child that went to look for help. That nun approached me and she said, you look pale. You look very disturbed. You're not speaking to anybody. And I opened up and trusted her and told her my story.
22:46 Speaker 04 And I went back to the nuns that I, I'm very lucky in life in a lot of way. I met very good people. And the man that I started working for, Ernie Stevenson, he took me down. I said to him, I'm going to bring my story forward. Will I damage your business? And he said, I don't care. He said, I will stand by you. He said, that story is horrific. He said, you have to get the truth out. And when I went to meet that nun, I'll never forget. I asked her, well, he asked, my boss asked her, why was my name changed? Why was my hair cut? Why was I made a slave of?
23:28 Speaker 04 And why did they hide me and not give me my education? And her words was, I'll never forget. Mr. Stevenson, have you got children? And he said, I do. He said, I have two daughters. She said, would you like your children playing with Maureen? And he was shocked. And he said, why? And she said, we couldn't have Maureen playing with the other children. She would corrupt their little minds if they asked her why she was there.
24:02 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
24:03 Speaker 04 Yeah, I was a soiled child. So I was punished the whole way through for his crimes.
24:11 Oprah Winfrey? I'm so sorry. This is the thing that is so striking, those of you who will read Girl in the Tunnel. Your stepfather was a pure predator. Because not only was he sexually assaulting you on a regular basis, and everybody in the house knew, certainly your mother knew, and your grandmother knew, but nobody could do anything about it. But he did what a lot of predators do. He started calling you a liar. Maureen is a liar, Maureen is a liar. And he started doing that long before you told, so that when you did tell, nobody would believe you. So even at school, kids would call you Maureen the liar.
24:51 Speaker 04 Yes.
24:51 Oprah Winfrey? Your mother started calling you a liar.
24:54 Speaker 04 Yeah.
24:54 Oprah Winfrey? I mean.
24:55 Speaker 04 He brought his children up like that. You see, his own children heard these words, Maureen the liar. He was kid himself covered in every way. How nasty and how evil of a man he was.
25:11 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. Well, Small Things Like These has been made into a movie this year, co-produced by Matt Damon and Ben Affleck, and it stars Oscar-winning Irish actor Cillian Murphy. And I say, read the book first. Read the book first, Small Things Like These. Maureen, I hear you went to the premiere. How was that experience for you? And I hear you've seen it now multiple times.
25:34 Speaker 04 Yes, and I'd go back again to see it. The hope that you get from it, it was the truth that came out in this, the way the nuns were so corrupt, that they threatened people. Your job could be gone, your children mightn't get into school. Bribe with money, that's exactly what they did. And that side has never been told before. And then Killian Murphy, the way he acted, it was just fantastic.
26:06 Oprah Winfrey? So do you feel, do you feel by small things like these, Claire's book, and now this book being made into a movie, do you feel some sense of validation? That you've been, that you have been heard?
26:20 Speaker 04 Yes, I do, I do. And I thank Claire very much for writing that book. And I, and I thank her for getting the movie and everything done. It's given us, it's, we're healing, we're starting to heal.
26:33 Oprah Winfrey? Hmm.
26:35 Speaker 04 You know, and I really do thank her.
26:37 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, and I think you're starting to heal because you can be heard. And just know that all of us at the Starbucks cafe here, we hear you. We hear you, Maureen.
26:46 Speaker 04 Thank you.
26:46 Oprah Winfrey? We hear you.
26:47 Speaker 04 Thank you so much.
26:48 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you so much for sharing your story with us. Maureen's book, Girl in the Tunnel, is available on Amazon. How does it feel to know that the story you have written has now enabled many of these women who still are alive to start the healing process for themselves?
27:05 Speaker 01 I'm just delighted.
27:06 Oprah Winfrey? Uh huh.
27:08 Speaker 01 I'm just delighted to have, you know, had the opportunity to, to write the book and, and, and be heard and to say something about misogynistic Ireland.
27:20 Oprah Winfrey? Hmm.
27:21 Speaker 01 Because one of the things I know about the misogynist is that he wants to shut you up.
27:26 Oprah Winfrey? Uh huh.
27:27 Speaker 01 Verbally and physically. In Maureen's case, obviously, she was incarcerated. So it was lovely to be able to come out the, the far side of that and, and use my voice and use my power to be able to say something. Which obviously Maureen at least does not find in any way offensive and finds it accurate.
27:50 Oprah Winfrey? Erin, where are you? You have a question?
27:52 Speaker 05 Yeah, go ahead. Hi, I have lots of family in Ireland. I've been there many, many times over the years. And I was just curious how your experience in Ireland had an impact in explaining the differences between and the character development of Catholics and Protestants in Ireland at that time.
28:11 Speaker 01 Thank you.
28:13 Speaker 01 Well, Ireland is and was primarily Catholic, you know, and the Catholics were, generally speaking, poor and Protestants were not. But I just wasn't brought up with any hatred. I was very lucky in that regard. And I never, I never remember my parents having any kind of a them and us. And I actually remember my mother saying that a Protestant was more likely to give you a lend of a plough than a Catholic would be. And so, so I was very lucky. I didn't, I didn't
28:51 Speaker 01 think about Protestant neighbors as being anything other than more privileged than, than we were. So there was, there was just no hatred at all. There was no hostility as far as, as far as I remember, anywhere in my childhood. And maybe that's why Mrs. Wilson in the book is kind.
29:15 Oprah Winfrey? I was going to ask you all, if you could have coffee with anybody in the book, who would that be?
29:20 Speaker 05 Mrs. Wilson.
29:21 Oprah Winfrey? I would choose Mrs. Wilson.
29:23 Speaker 05 Yeah.
29:23 Oprah Winfrey? I was, I was going to choose Mrs.
29:27 Oprah Winfrey? You would, were you going to choose Mrs. Wilson for real?
29:30 Speaker 05 Yes.
29:30 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, why would you choose Mrs. Wilson?
29:32 Speaker 05 I just thought, you know, going back to, it was very much male-dominated society at that time. I thought she was a woman and she was very brave to take this young girl in and provided, really, Bill with an avenue, by giving him the book.
29:50 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
29:50 Speaker 05 Gave him really an outlet of utility. Visualizing the book, mashing it up with then the dictionary and kind of giving him a base for getting out.
29:58 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, there's a line you used to describe her, like she was a woman who could make her own decisions or a woman who could decide for herself. And I just thought, I want to talk to that woman who at that time was able to do that. And it feels, it feels so dated. I was talking to some of the group earlier. We were saying, this feels like it's the 50s or something. It feels so, it doesn't feel like it was the 80s.
30:22 Speaker 01 There wasn't a great deal, apart from the motor cars, I don't know that there was a huge difference between the 80s and the 60s or the 50s.
30:31 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
30:33 Speaker 01 We had, we had bad hairdos in the 80s.
30:39 Speaker 01 Contraception was illegal in Ireland until 1985. Martial rape was legal until 1990.
30:47 Speaker 01 So that'll give you a picture of what the 80s were like in Ireland. We also had the highest unemployment in Western Europe.
30:55 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
30:56 Speaker 01 So it was a difficult and backward time.
31:00 Oprah Winfrey? Well, we wanted to know how young women in Ireland today feel about this book. And my team talked to two high school friends from Claire's hometown of Wicklow. They're joining us now from a nearby Starbucks in Bray, Ireland. Hello, Frances and Lena Rose.
31:18 Speaker 06 Hi.
31:19 Oprah Winfrey? Hi, girls.
31:19 Speaker 06 Thank you for having us.
31:20 Oprah Winfrey? What kind of coffee are you having today?
31:23 Speaker 06 Chai latte.
31:24 Oprah Winfrey? Chai latte, I believe in it. So tell us, I hear you encouraged your high school teacher to have your class read Small Things Like These, and each student is now writing a paper about the book. How great is that? Way to go, Lena Rose.
31:39 Speaker 06 So basically, it's one of the choices on our curriculum for our English class.
31:45 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
31:45 Speaker 06 It's one of the options that we can pick. So I had read it already and had gone to my teacher and said, I really, really loved this book and would it be possible. And then she went to the board and they spoke and they decided to do the book. So we're learning it as like part of our final assessment.
32:01 Oprah Winfrey? So as young women, we were just talking about how this Doesn't feel like it was as recent as the 80s and 90s. And in 1996, I know you still weren't born, but in 19, that is, late as 1996, these stories were still happening. So as a young woman, how does that make you view your history and the country?
32:26 Speaker 07 Yeah, I think that it highlights how recent it is, especially with Claire's book, Small Towns Like the Hassan, or Ince as well, Girl in the Tunnel. I think you see it around you all the time with young women like us, but also with our mothers and our grandmothers. A lot of that shame and guilt has passed down through the generations. And whether it was directly or indirectly, the women in our lives have all been affected by the laundries and the culture over here against women. Because I think at the end of the day, women were punished for being women. And there's just too much hurt and pain. And it's still such a taboo topic to be discussed.
33:10 Speaker 07 And when I've talked to anybody who has been affected by the same themes of the laundries, they blame themselves. And it's hard for that to go away, especially when it was so recent. I think that if we're being honest, it wasn't, you know, a giant secret.
33:32 Speaker 07 And I don't think Ireland is, I don't think it's time for us to move on from it. I think having the spotlight on it for longer and talking about it is really important.
33:41 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
33:42 Speaker 06 One of my favorite things about the book, the reason I love it so much, is that it is so unapologetically and unavoidably Ireland in the 80s. Like you can't, there's not a second when you're reading the book that you can genuinely believe that this is in a different place or this is in a different time. You can't take yourself out of the story. This is your village, your people, your town, your community. And that's so powerful that you have to, are forced to acknowledge this is a part of your very recent history.
34:11 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
34:13 Oprah Winfrey? So wise, girls, so wise. Do you have a, you have a question for Claire?
34:18 Speaker 07 Was there a specific event that inspired you to write this? Like, why did it feel so personal to you?
34:25 Speaker 01 Hello, Wicklow.
34:29 Speaker 01 Bad wifi in Wicklow.
34:33 Speaker 01 No, there really, there really wasn't. It was just after reading the Ferns report, first of all. And then I, I, I heard what was going on in the Magdalen laundries and the radio. And I just needed to write something about it. But it wasn't, it wasn't in any way, way personal for me on an autobiographical level. It was what I was imagining. But I don't think there's anything more personal than what you imagine. Yeah. Good luck with your studies.
35:00 Oprah Winfrey? Good luck with your studies and thanks for getting more people to read Small Things Like These. Thank you, Frances and Lena Rose. Thank you. Thank you both. When you wrote this, I, I'm sure, I don't know if writers think about it moving on from generation to generation. And now that it's, you know, being read in classes and all of that. It does what for you as an author?
35:24 Speaker 01 It just makes me feel grateful that I have the life I have and that I'm able to make a living writing stories and that people want to read them and, and that they're being taught in the schools. And it's lovely to think that there are, you know, teenage boys in Ireland now asking the question of what would I do? And how am I? And how do I treat women?
35:48 Oprah Winfrey? Wow. Because that misogyny just moves from generation to generation. Yes.
35:53 Speaker 01 Let's hope not.
35:54 Oprah Winfrey? Yes. Yeah. The whole idea of your husband comes home and you're there to greet him and to make his life as easy as possible and going through the whole, the things that we heard our mothers did and their mothers did and their mothers did, that we have been liberated from. I think to be reminded that in the eighties and nineties, this was still very prevalent
36:20 Speaker 01 Indeed.
36:21 Oprah Winfrey? in other parts of the world is important for we as women people particularly to know. And, and those of you who are guys who read this, did it surprise you?
36:30 Speaker 02 Yes, it did surprise me. What really resonated with me as a father, the longing to be part of the family more. He left home, he had to go to work. And when he came home, he was present, but he was always worrying about the next paycheck, the next bill, the, the money owed to him to cover his.
36:54 Speaker 02 Large family in that day and age, but even now, if you have that many kids, being able to feed them, worrying about his wife's happiness while she's sleeping right next to him, longing for her, but realizing maybe she had a rough day, that she needs to just sleep and rest. And he has to get up and leave. And him wanting to be more in his daughters' lives, but realizing his job is to provide for them and step away and do the job, do the work.
37:24 Oprah Winfrey? Wow, yeah. Did you relate to him?
37:27 Speaker 02 I did, I did, as a father, yeah.
37:30 Oprah Winfrey? Okay, I heard you see this as a love story, tell us why.
37:33 Speaker 01 I, I think the main difference between Furlong and some of the other men in that community might be that when he was young, he was loved and cared for.
37:44 Speaker 01 He was living in privileged circumstances and the three people who lived there all cared for him and cared well for him. And even though he lost his mother when he was young, she loved him and she minded him. And people in that house respected each other. And there's a, there's a wonderful poem by Philip Larkin called "An Arundel Tomb", and it concludes with the line, "What will survive of us is love." And I think that carries over into-
38:12 Oprah Winfrey? I know that is true.
38:14 Speaker 01 Bill's personality. Because he wasn't brutalized perhaps the way other people were. Wasn't so hard.
38:25 Speaker 01 Seamus Heaney says, "We get hurt and get hard." And I, I think he was able to keep some of his softness.
38:32 Oprah Winfrey? And I think this too, I was saying this to our group earlier, that I think that people are able to give, you all think about this question, is it true for you? And also for people in your life, not just the characters that we read about in Small Things Like These. You are able to give love in direct proportion to how you've been able to receive it. And exactly what you were saying about Bill Furlong, he was able to do that because he was loved, loved by his mother for as long as she was there, able to give it to him. But also the kindness shown him, the care shown to him, just that one day, Mrs. Wilson patted him on the head and he walked around that whole day and even longer,
39:15 Oprah Winfrey? thinking that he was somebody and as good as the other kids. I think you're able to do that in direct proportion to how you're given it. And if you're not given it, you never received what you needed. You walk around bitter, and that's what's coming out of you all the time. And so often, what we see from people is the bitterness from the love they never received. That's what I think. Yeah. Erica, what is your question? What is your question for Claire, Erica?
39:42 Speaker 07 This was such a powerful book. I know it touches on things such as social responsibility, morality, and guilt. So I was wondering what messages you wanted the readers to kind of take away, especially in this climate that we're living in today. There's so many things that this can... Even though this book was written, you know, in past times, we're living this again in different ways, in different terms. I was curious to see what you want readers to take away.
40:07 Speaker 01 Thank you for the question. And I'm not sure that there is a message I want anyone to take away from the book. I think reading a book is a really personal thing. And whatever you take away from it is all right. And you know, some people may think this is a story of a fool. I mean, he was born on April Fool's Day, and people predicted when he was born that he would turn out to be a fool. And maybe that's what the story is. Maybe there were clever ways to get done what he got done. Maybe it's a story about love. Maybe it's a story about a marriage falling apart. Maybe it's a story about a man breaking down.
40:49 Speaker 01 But whatever it is, whatever it is, is all right. Because I think your response to a book is deeply personal and shouldn't be interfered with. I think the reader completes the book.
41:07 Oprah Winfrey? Oh, we love that. All of us readers went, oh, thanks. We, the reader, we complete the book. Would you agree, Dennis? That's true. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Nuro, where are you? Okay. Nuro with the pink shoes. Go ahead.
41:25 Speaker 05 You wrote in the final chapter how Bill notices his courage and self-preservation battling itself. And it reminded me, as a therapist, how so many people, their past experiences inform and direct their courage. Current choices. And because he had experienced that goodness, he was able to make the courageous one. And I think I was wondering, what makes the difference in someone making that courageous one? I know one of my favorite lines in your book was, "The hand that poured was steady."
41:58 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
41:59 Speaker 05 Seeing no remorse, no anxiety, she had it down. So what makes the difference in someone being able to make the courageous choice versus being either complicit or a bystander?
42:10 Speaker 01 I think it's empathy. I actually think it's sadness in the end. I know that we're supposed to be happy all the time, but I mean, I just think that would be death for empathy. I think sadness actually makes you think about what life is like for others. If you weren't sad, if you didn't feel that, you wouldn't have empathy.
42:29 Oprah Winfrey? Not having sadness would be death for empathy.
42:33 Speaker 01 I do think that.
42:34 Oprah Winfrey? Oh, that's so brilliant. I actually do think that's brilliant. Don't you guys think?
42:38 Speaker 01 I think being upset is really important for your development. So you can think about what others go through.
42:47 Oprah Winfrey? We are aha-ing all over the dam. All over the Starbucks cafe. That is such a big aha. Don't you think?
42:55 Speaker 05 I think so. And at the same time, I'm a therapist, my friend's a psychologist. We see sadness go the other way. It becomes so self-protective that you can't step into empathy either. So it's a fine distinction.
43:08 Speaker 01 Well, I think then you're so sad that you're damaged. You've hardened. That's the hardness I was talking about earlier.
43:15 Speaker 05 Yes.
43:16 Speaker 01 You get hurt and get hard.
43:18 Oprah Winfrey? You get hurt and get hard. That is true. So many people have done that. This is what I so appreciated. And I think you're talking about this. This is on page 113. He found himself asking, "Was there any point in being alive without helping one another? Was it possible to carry on along through all the years, the decades, through an entire life, without once being brave enough to go against what was there and yet call yourself a Christian and face yourself in the mirror?" I thought that was just so poignant. And also, the thing for me is the very last sentence of the book.
44:00 Oprah Winfrey? Climbing the street towards his own front door with a barefooted girl in the box of shoes. His fear more than outweighed every other feeling. But in his foolish heart, he not only hoped, but legitimately believed that they would manage. Okay, we need a sequel.
44:25 Oprah Winfrey? Because what happens? I mean, we were all saying this morning, when he gets home, Eileen is gonna blow her. She's gonna be that emoji with the blown head off, right? She, and, and it's not, one of the things we appreciate about the story is that you don't know what's gonna happen, except it's not gonna be easy. And that's why his fear outweighs every other emotion. And also, why it is the ultimate act of bravery. Because in order, you have to have fear in order to be courageous.
45:02 Speaker 01 Don't you think, though, it's also kind of comical? That you'd be afraid to take a girl home on Christmas Eve?
45:10 Speaker 01 That looking back, for me now, looking back, why would anybody not do that? Is also comical.
45:18 Oprah Winfrey? Because he's going to, he knows it's going to keep his girls out of that school. His girls aren't gonna be able to go to that school. Those nuns are going to make life miserable for him.
45:27 Speaker 01 I, I agree. I mean, I, I know, I'm not, I'm not disagreeing with you, but what I'm saying is.
45:33 Oprah Winfrey? How's he gonna live in that town? And she's, and Eileen is gonna resent him forever. She's never getting over it.
45:38 Speaker 01 I agree. I, I think it's all bad.
45:41 Oprah Winfrey? Eileen is mad right now. She's mad, Eileen is mad that there's a book. And Eileen is mad that there's a movie. She's mad that Lena Rose and Frances are talking about it. Eileen is just mad, yeah.
45:56 Speaker 01 Yeah. I just think, looking back now, why, how afraid people were of the church.
46:04 Oprah Winfrey? And obviously still are, based on what Lena Rose and Frances were saying, people still don't want to talk about it.
46:12 Speaker 01 Yeah, people have been silent for so long, they don't know how to find the words now. But the Catholic Church has collapsed in Ireland. People just don't go, people don't mind, people don't worry. And that's interesting.
46:28 Oprah Winfrey? So do you think your book and the subsequent movie with Oscar winner Cillian Murphy, playing the role of Bill Furlong, that that is going to open up the conversation in a way that hasn't been? Because storytelling does that in a way that no news story can.
46:49 Speaker 01 I would hope so.
46:50 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
46:51 Speaker 01 It's already opened up in Ireland to a great extent, it really has. But I'm just glad that other people in other parts of the world can hear about it and think about it. And it's lovely, really, to be a novelist or a short story writer because you don't have to pretend you work for the tourist board.
47:14 Speaker 01 It's nice to be a critic of your own society and get that chance.
47:18 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, yeah. Well, what a brave thing for you. Were you afraid ever in writing the story of what might happen to you as a writer? Or what people would say? Or how the book would be received? Or not be published?
47:30 Speaker 01 Not at all. I've never worried about that. I've always written what matters to me. And if you don't like it, well, well, just go find and read another book.
47:42 Oprah Winfrey? Well, we're glad you wrote this one. Thank you, Claire Keegan, for small things like these.
47:47 Speaker 01 Thank you.
47:49 Oprah Winfrey? And thank you all for your thoughtful questions. Thank you. Thank you.
47:56 Oprah Winfrey? To everyone watching and listening, if you haven't bought the book yet, it's the perfect, it's a wonderful stocking stuffer for the holiday season. It fits right in a stocking. You can grab a bag of Christmas blend coffee, put a little cup in there too, and put a ribbon on it, and you got yourself a gift. Thank you, thank you so much. All of our fantastic readers, thank you Starbucks for supporting us. Thank you. We hope you'll become a part of the book club. Subscribe to the podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. We're excited for a fun year of books, coffee, and conversation. Thanks, everybody. Small things like this.
48:39 Speaker 07 Thank you.
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