Pod Insights The Oprah Podcast Oprah and Business Leader Mellody Hobson Share the Money Advice You Need to Know Now About this episode In this episode of The Oprah Podcast, financial expert and Co-CEO and President of Ariel Investments, Mellody Hobson, offers practical advice to simplify financial conversations for families.
Mellody shares details about struggling with money as a child, lessons she's taught her daughter and fascinating historical facts about money from her New York Times best-selling children's book, "Priceless Facts About Money."
People from around the country join via Zoom to ask Mellody how to address financial questions and situations with their children.
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Transcript Speaker names marked ? are inferred from speaking time and the show’s known hosts — they are not voice-verified.
0:00 Oprah Winfrey? Hi, everyone. Welcome to the Oprah Podcast. I'm so glad to be here with you. And hello to everyone watching us on YouTube. I'm talking with the brilliant and most effervescent Mellody Hobson, who is the real maven of money. I know that for many of you, talking about money, especially with your children, can bring up a lot of stress and anxiety.
0:25 Speaker 01 Out of nowhere, they're going to ask you questions you're not prepared for.
0:28 Oprah Winfrey? Melody grew up the youngest of six children to a single mother who struggled to pay the bills. She has her own painful memories of being evicted from their homes in Chicago. This lack of agency fueled Melody's awareness of what money means in the world. So she made it her mission to succeed. Shortly after graduating from Princeton, she joined Ariel Investments. It's a Black-owned global asset management firm. Melody quickly rose through the ranks there, sharing her formidable knowledge on shows like Good Morning America.
1:02 Speaker 02 When you use a lot of the credit that has been extended to you, it lowers your score.
1:06 Oprah Winfrey? Melody is now the co-CEO and president of Ariel and served for over three years as chair of the board of Starbucks. She is married to legendary filmmaker and Star Wars creator George Lucas. Together, they have one daughter, 11-year-old Everest. She is the inspiration behind Melody's latest project, The New York Times bestselling children's book, Priceless Facts About Money.
1:38 Oprah Winfrey? So when I first read Melody's book, Priceless Facts About Money, I was so surprised and delighted because what you did was you made learning about money fun. And I know you were originally writing this book for children. And I'm reading it like, well, I didn't know how the stock exchange started. I didn't know. So there were many things I didn't know. And I think, are you finding that a lot of adults are saying, "Thank you for this book"?
2:04 Speaker 02 That was the goal. So I was using the children, and I have been using children, as a gateway to adults.
2:09 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
2:09 Speaker 02 I thought if I could have parents think, I've got to teach this to my children, when I in fact know they don't know the subject matter, they'd be de facto learning.
2:19 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
2:19 Speaker 02 And that is the exact answer that I'm getting.
2:21 Oprah Winfrey? Oh, that was the goal.
2:22 Speaker 02 And that has been from the most successful people you could possibly imagine, to people who are struggling every single day, where both sides have said, I've learned so much.
2:33 Oprah Winfrey? So much from this, from this book.
2:34 Speaker 02 Yes.
2:35 Oprah Winfrey? I liked it so much, I chose it, it's one of the favorite things.
2:38 Speaker 02 Thank you so much.
2:39 Oprah Winfrey? Because I think to be able to give it to yourself and then share it with your children is the ideal. So what inspired you? I know that money has been a part of your calling, from the lack of money as a little girl.
2:54 Speaker 02 So let me start off with the fact, and this is one of the ways I anchored the book, no matter where you live, an African village or Chicago, you have to deal with money no matter who you are. It is fundamental, it's like oxygen. It is something that is fundamental around the world.
3:11 Oprah Winfrey? Every culture in the world, no matter what.
3:12 Speaker 02 So I just want to start with that piece, as that was part of the inspiration for this. It's not a, an issue of a developed country or an emerging market. It's the whole world, every person, every family, has to deal with money in some way every single day. That's number one. Where I was rooted in this story and where this became my calling was how I grew up and how money affected my life and created, quite frankly, a great deal of trauma for me.
3:37 Oprah Winfrey? Because you were the youngest of six children.
3:38 Speaker 02 Youngest.
3:39 Oprah Winfrey? And you, and never had it.
3:40 Speaker 02 Right. And so I grew up with a single mom, and there was just a shortage at all times. So we would get evicted, our phone would get disconnected, our lights would be turned off. There was a time we were living in an abandoned building. I mean, I could go on and on and on. Really traumatic when you're a child. Because when you're a child, you have no control. You can't go get a job. There's nothing you can do. On top of that, I had a mother who was incredible in so many ways, but made really bad money decisions. And that was hard to watch even as a child. And I kept thinking, this isn't a good idea. So my mom would buy Easter dresses instead of paying the light bill. I had that mother.
4:20 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, because the Easter dresses, everybody gets to see you and you look like.
4:23 Speaker 02 Correct, you had to go to church looking a certain way.
4:25 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. Did you have the patent leather shoes too?
4:27 Speaker 02 Of course, Mary Janes, but we, we didn't have lights at home. And so that was one of those things that caused me so much, so much anxiety. So at a very young age, I said, I want to understand money. I want to understand it. I want to not repeat what I'm seeing all around me. I want to make better decisions. It wasn't about an amount of money. It was about truly breaking it down so that I could do and live life in a different way. And so I think that it's no accident, I work in the investment business and have my entire career. My trauma in life became my purpose.
5:05 Oprah Winfrey? Oh, I love it when that happens. When you take the thing that made you feel so powerless and you turn it into your real power. And obviously you have done that. And now you say 77% of adults, I would think it's even more, are anxious about money, that they don't want to talk about it. And parents don't want to talk about to their children. Parents who have the money don't want to discuss it because they don't want their kids to feel entitled. Parents who don't have the money don't want to discuss it because they don't want their children to have to worry about that.
5:37 Speaker 02 Yes, 77% of people say they have anxiety about money. A lot of it is rooted in a lack of knowledge and information.
5:46 Oprah Winfrey? And why are people so uncomfortable talking about it?
5:48 Speaker 02 Because we don't grow up in schools where we learn about money.
5:51 Oprah Winfrey? That's why I really do believe, and I've said this behind your back, this should be taught in schools. This should be a part of the curriculum for young kids. Because learning in a fun way like this makes it accessible. It makes you not have fear about it.
6:08 Speaker 02 Correct, and I think the thing is when you can anchor it, not only do you not have fear, you're kind of excited about what you're learning. Because everyone who's read the book, and I've had so many different types of people read the book, they always say to me, who knew?
6:22 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
6:22 Speaker 02 And they feel so empowered by knowledge that they think that. They hold that other people don't have.
6:27 Oprah Winfrey? That's right.
6:27 Speaker 02 And it makes it especially for kids. Kids love facts, but this is not an encyclopedia. The facts are all quirky and different.
6:35 Oprah Winfrey? And one of the reasons why I think it's so fun is because you actually used your daughter Everest, who's 11 years old, to help you in writing the book and also helping to understand what was accessible for her, right?
6:47 Speaker 02 Yes, so my first draft of the book I gave to my husband.
6:50 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
6:50 Speaker 02 And who knows a thing or two about telling stories?
6:53 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
6:53 Speaker 02 And he looked at me and he said, "It's too sophisticated." And I was like a little offended. I was like, "I know how to talk about money." He's like, "I think it's a little sophisticated." So I gave it to Everest, who was eight years old, nine years old the first draft. And I said, because I started when she was eight, I said, "Read it and circle every word you don't know." And it came back with a lot of circles.
7:18 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
7:19 Speaker 02 And so I said, "You know what? I'm not dumbing this down. I'm going to explain every word that she circled." So sometimes I gave the phonetic definition, sometimes I gave the definition. We did funny, hilarious footnotes, all sorts of things where I said, "I'm not going to walk away from the concept, but I do understand I need to break it down another level." And so she read multiple drafts until I felt that she truly understood the concepts, which I was just literally using her as my, you know, one-person-focused group child. Then we took it to expert readers and did peer review with teachers and things like that.
7:54 Oprah Winfrey? And explaining everything from bartering, one of my favorite lines is when young Melody in the book, Melody, says, "Oh, I wanted to buy something, buy a book, and I couldn't because..."
8:04 Speaker 02 They don't take cupcakes.
8:05 Oprah Winfrey? "They don't take cupcakes." And I thought, "That is Gayle King, okay? You're talking about Gayle King trying to barter for cupcakes." What's the most surprising thing you learned while writing this book?
8:15 Speaker 02 There are so many facts and I was just so, I mean, I spent a long time researching. And everything had to be vetted and we had to make sure everything was absolutely true. But one of my favorite ones is, we think about the first official credit card having been born basically 75 years ago.
8:32 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
8:32 Speaker 02 When this businessman was traveling in New York and he forgot his wallet. He had dinner.
8:36 Oprah Winfrey? Right.
8:36 Speaker 02 And he didn't have any money and he ultimately invented what was called the diner's card for dining. It was originally cardboard, not plastic, even though we call credit cards plastic. But that wasn't the really, really the first credit card. The first credit card was a knight's ring from a thousand years ago.
8:52 Oprah Winfrey? I know. Who would have ever?
8:54 Speaker 02 They use signet rings to pay for things because the king or queen did not want the knights on the road where they could be robbed. And as a result of that, they gave the knight a signet ring. The knight would stay at an inn or go to a pub.
9:09 Oprah Winfrey? And that would.
9:09 Speaker 02 And then put their ring in the wax seal and then the innkeeper or the pub keeper would take the bill to the castle and get paid.
9:18 Oprah Winfrey? So when I was reading this, I was like, did you know that already or did you research and find that?
9:23 Speaker 02 I didn't know that one, but there were a lot of things I did know, like bull and bear. That's one of my favorite facts. Why do they call it bull and bear markets when I started to work in the investment business? And very early on, after doing lots of research, because I wanted to know. The best answer I got was it had to do with how they kill their prey. That when a bull kills its prey, it takes its horns and it pulls up. And when a bear kills its prey, it runs and bears down on the prey. So stock market going up is a bull market, stock market going down is a bear market. That is something I knew, for example. And there were a lot of other facts in the book that I knew that I said now I.
9:59 Oprah Winfrey? I didn't know that when I read that.
10:00 Speaker 02 I knew Wall Street was because of where Alexander Hamilton lived. Now, a lot of people know that fact today because of the, the show Hamilton.
10:07 Oprah Winfrey? The play, yeah, yeah. Okay. So what do you think, Melody, that most parents get wrong? When it comes to money and their children?
10:17 Speaker 02 So the first thing is that their lack of willingness to talk about it. Basically means that they pass on all of their money habits. So whatever they do.
10:29 Oprah Winfrey? And money fears.
10:30 Speaker 02 The child is actually just acclimating themselves to the same behavior. Then you can't break the cycle. There is not that 10-year-old Melody saying, I don't want to do this.
10:39 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
10:39 Speaker 02 So you can't expect a child to do that. That's number one, that in not dealing. With money, they are de facto teaching their children everything that they do. So if you pay the minimum payment, your child's gonna do that. If you overspend, your child will spend. These are things that we know for sure. The second thing is shielding their children from money. This is where I give my mother a lot of credit. She maybe made some money decisions that were questionable, but she put me in the real world every single day. And what I loved is she had me handle money. We would go to a restaurant, from McDonald's to a diner. She would have me pay, when I was little, four or five years old, go and give the money at the counter.
11:24 Speaker 02 Then she'd have me count.
11:25 Oprah Winfrey? So you knew that there was an exchange for this?
11:27 Speaker 02 Then count the change.
11:28 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
11:29 Speaker 02 Then calculate the tip. Every step along the way that I became more sophisticated, I never saw my mom pay a bill because I paid them. And so it let me know what things cost. I knew what a hamburger cost at McDonald's versus at a fancy restaurant.
11:45 Oprah Winfrey? So tell me, let me ask you this. Do you think parents should allow their children to know how much money they make?
11:53 Speaker 02 I think that I would be age appropriate. So I would not deny if you have a lot of resources. I think pretending that you don't is foolish. I also would not deny if your resource scarce. And I think it's very important to level with kids.
12:10 Oprah Winfrey? So you don't have to give the number?
12:12 Speaker 02 Yes, but you have to be very, very honest about it. And it happened to us recently, I will give you that example. My daughter recently was in a situation where some kids asked her about her family's situation. And she was very taken aback because we don't talk about, you know, what we have versus other people. We don't, we value values, not things.
12:34 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
12:35 Speaker 02 But I did say to her, I said that, you know, yes, you have a lot of resources, but they're not yours, they're ours.
12:43 Speaker 02 Just so she understood that it wasn't, you know, it's not her money.
12:46 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
12:47 Speaker 02 And she said, well, will I have resources one day? And I said, you'll have a job? Yes. And she said, where will I live? And I said, you'll probably have a house. And I said, but you won't be without? You'll have enough. I said, you will have, you know, you'll have enough. And it was really interesting. We had a very direct conversation about it.
13:06 Oprah Winfrey? And will you have another conversation as she's older? Because she's 11.
13:09 Speaker 02 It's a running conversation.
13:10 Oprah Winfrey? It's a running conversation.
13:11 Speaker 02 Yeah, it's a conversation that never ends. Now, the thing about her, at least at this stage, she's not enamored by things. When we go to a store, my daughter never asks for anything.
13:21 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
13:22 Speaker 02 So I have to show her something and say, would you like this? But she would not ask, even though I've never told her that there's an issue with her asking. She just doesn't.
13:30 Oprah Winfrey? Hmm.
13:30 Speaker 02 And she doesn't want a lot of stuff around her.
13:33 Oprah Winfrey? So, you know, I grew up with a mother like your mother. And I was just always told, we don't have it, we don't have it, we don't have it. Which is hurtful and also you carry the shame of that. We don't have it, we don't have it, we don't have it.
13:46 Speaker 02 The shame is huge.
13:48 Oprah Winfrey? I remember the Christmas, I was told, there is no Santa Claus and you're not having Christmas because we don't have it.
13:54 Speaker 02 I was five.
13:55 Oprah Winfrey? Wow. Yeah, well, I was 12 and we were on welfare. I should have known there was no Santa by that time anyway, but it was time. But I often think it would have been so much more meaningful if she'd said, we don't have it and this is why.
14:10 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:11 Oprah Winfrey? Or, this is all we have, instead of we don't have it, we don't have it.
14:15 Speaker 02 Yeah.
14:15 Oprah Winfrey? So.
14:15 Speaker 02 It's interesting because I think that they did the best that they could.
14:18 Oprah Winfrey? Yes, I agree with that.
14:20 Speaker 02 And I think that these were hard subjects and, you know, there was a lot of struggle. There was a lot of struggle. And I think they were, at least my mother was trying to anchor me in reality.
14:29 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
14:29 Speaker 02 She was constantly trying to help me understand what I was going to confront in life.
14:33 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
14:33 Speaker 02 And so her goal was not to sugarcoat anything, so she gave it to you straight.
14:37 Oprah Winfrey? So I think that you're paying the bills, you know, at McDonald's versus this restaurant. You're looking at the bills, you're seeing.
14:44 Speaker 02 She had me look at the utility bills.
14:46 Oprah Winfrey? So I think that that is very valuable.
14:48 Speaker 02 And I meet kids today who have no idea what their cellphone costs. I'm like, you know. Wifi costs money. Though all those streaming services cost thing. My mother, I would have.
14:57 Oprah Winfrey? So children should know that.
14:59 Speaker 02 Absolutely. The example that I give that I love so much, I love this example. Everest has this game that she likes to buy on her iPad. It's called Toka. Since she was like five years old, she can't buy anything without asking ever, ever, ever. And she's a rules follower. So she'll come in and say, Mom, can I buy? It's called a place because you build a house or a store or what have you. So I said, how much is it? And she was, when she was very young, she'd say, dot nine nine. I said, 99 cents. I said, um, let me think about it. I take a minute, go back to her and say, yes, you can get that. Next time she comes to me, she says, I want to buy a place. I said, how much is it? She says, 2.99.
15:44 Speaker 02 I was like, I have to ask Baba. Baba is dead.
15:47 Oprah Winfrey? Dead, yes.
15:47 Speaker 02 So I'm helping her to see. She's like, oh, I said, that's, that's more expensive.
15:52 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
15:52 Speaker 02 I said, I have to ask Baba. So she's, she understands that I go back because I don't want her to get anything instant. Even though I know 99 cents is not a lot, but instant gratification, I'm trying to manage.
16:03 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
16:04 Speaker 02 And patience. So I said, I have to ask Baba.
16:06 Oprah Winfrey? This is a child who could have anything she wanted in the world.
16:09 Speaker 02 Correct, and 2.99 for any of us is like a not a no brainer. But I was like, no. And it's not manufactured, but it's just letting her to see, be thoughtful and deliberate about what you spend. So the last time she comes and she says, I want to watch a movie. And I said, okay, so we went to turn on the show. It was an animated film and it was 15.99. This is Everest's reaction. This is ridiculous. She's like blown. She thinks this is the like biggest number she's ever, she's like, Mom, this is so expensive. And I said, well, Everest, you'll probably watch it multiple times. It's like a toy. And I said, I think it'll be a good investment, but I'm still going to talk to Baba about it. So that she sees we collaborate on money.
16:53 Speaker 02 And I love this because now she knows 99 cents versus 2.99 versus 15.99.
17:01 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
17:02 Speaker 02 And that was when she was like seven years old.
17:05 Oprah Winfrey? I love this. This is ridiculous. Yes.
17:08 Speaker 02 Yeah, I mean, she was really, she was, she was upset.
17:10 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you for listening to my podcast. I'll have more of my conversation with Mellody Hobson about her new book, Priceless Facts About Money, right after this. Hey again. I'm with financial trailblazer and bestselling author Mellody Hobson, whose new book has great money advice for parents and their children. We have parents zooming in with us today with questions for Melody. Kelly is a mother of two. Hello, Kelly, and is joining us from Milwaukee, my old stomping grounds. So what's going on with you?
17:42 Speaker 01 Well, I wanted to start by saying I'm so glad to share this space with both of you. Nobody can break down financial systems and barriers and things like that on their own, but financial education and access means everything. I will say for us in our home, I have a four-year-old and a six-year-old, and they're young. And you always are trying to figure out, what is an age-appropriate way to explain anything to them? Because out of nowhere, they're going to ask you questions you're not prepared for. Where do babies come from? Why does mommy have a mustache today? And so, you know, we've been trying to figure out the most age-appropriate ways to explain money, because they've had a lot of questions. And it started this summer where, you know, I'm spending a lot of time in my office here on my computer, and, you know, they'd say, "Close your work. Get out of your office. What are you doing?" And my husband was explaining
18:25 Speaker 01 to them, "You should be quiet now. Mommy's working." And, you know, the work she's doing on the computer, or when he's out in the field, that pays for, you know, our house and the food you need and the toys you enjoy. And also, there are some kids that don't have any of those things. And it's one thing to explain it to them, but it's another thing to put it in practice. So this summer, we did an experiment, and we gave them each $3 and took them to the dollar store and had them pick what they wanted. And they had to decide, do I want these five things, but I only have $3? Do I want this candy versus this toy? Which one's going to last longer and bring me more joy? So those trade-offs, they had to figure out. And there was some disappointment, and there were some learnings there. We also
19:06 Speaker 01 went to the Lego store at one point, and my son was like, "These things are $189!" So similar reaction as Everest had.
19:14 Oprah Winfrey? Yes. So what is your question for Melody?
19:18 Speaker 01 Yeah, so my question is, you know, at the ages of four and six, what is the age-appropriate way to explain the power of money?
19:28 Speaker 02 I think you do it as you have already started. There's the practicality of it, and then there is valuing things. So the great example with your Dollar Store example is they had to put a value on things, and they had to give it relative value. You're not directly explaining that to them, but that's actually what's happening. And so I'm a big fan of giving kids choices. That's why I love barter. Barter is, there is actually no money involved, but it's, do you want Barbie or a cupcake? One you're gonna eat and it's going to disappear, and one you may have. And they actually decide and start to put that value on it. So that's a great way. I think also, and this is really important, because especially for young kids, I talk about the fact that money is very mysterious, because they don't actually ever see it anymore, because of our cashless society.
20:12 Speaker 02 Money for children is on a credit card, a phone now, or it's spit out of a machine. So trying to explain that you work for it, when you're four, that's super hard to understand. And so as a result of that, I really encourage parents, use cash. Use cash so they can see it's finite, and it goes away, that you don't have an endless amount of it. And just in a wallet, they can see that it's starting to go down, and that can be very, very helpful.
20:41 Oprah Winfrey? That's what you did with the three dollars, right? You had actually three dollars.
20:45 Speaker 01 Three dollars. We get to other parents, so to your point on cash, you know, I have a friend who, you know, if her daughter wants extra dessert, she's gotta pay a dollar for it, or extra screen time, or something like that. Again, knowing and understanding the trade-offs, but physically holding that money does make a difference.
21:00 Speaker 02 Now, their very important point is also to make sure it doesn't become something that builds fear in them, or feels like a hardship. You know, you wanna be light about it. You know, it's a fact of life. It's a conversation you can have, but not in such a way that you either feel punished, or you feel, you know, very, very put upon. I'll give you one quick example with Everest. So Everest, when we told her, just like your children at about the same age, she said to us, "All kids have toys." And we were like, "All kids do not have toys, Everest." And so George, to his credit, my husband, he was like, "Go and show her." He's like, "Don't explain it to her. Go and show her." So I said, "Okay."
21:43 Speaker 02 We went to Father Flager's Church in Chicago, St. Sabina. I sent her without me to sit with five-year-old children and take toys for the holidays. And that was the first time she saw.
21:57 Oprah Winfrey? That other kids don't have what you have. I think that's really important.
22:01 Speaker 02 That was visual, and it was a reaction. Not only the enthusiasm they had for them. She said, "A lot of the toys." She said, "I said, 'What did you see?'" She said, "Broken toys." I mean, it touches your heart. I said, "What happened?" She said, "They said, 'Who do you live with?'" She said, "My mom and dad." They said, "Mom and dad."
22:19 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
22:20 Speaker 02 She said, "Where's..." They said, "Where's your mom?" She said, "My mom's at work." They said, "Work."
22:26 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
22:27 Speaker 02 So we were explaining to her at five-years-old, we're like, "Everyone doesn't have a mom and dad." Some people have neither. Some people live with their grandpas, or their grandmas, or their aunts, or uncles, or a friend. Everyone doesn't have a job. It was this, this, this living example that we could explain to a five-year-old. But George is the one who said, "Go and show her. Don't explain it."
22:48 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, I think that if you're four and six, you can't even comprehend that somebody doesn't have what you have.
22:54 Speaker 02 Until you see it.
22:55 Oprah Winfrey? Until you see it. I think your kids are there. Can we see your kids? I'm looking at the picture.
23:00 Speaker 01 Oh, little...
23:01 Speaker 02 Hello.
23:02 Oprah Winfrey? Wow. Cute. Gorgeous. Thank you. Look at that family. Thank you for saying hi. They're the big three-dollar shoppers. Look at them. Look, who is this and what is going on? Thank you, Kelly, and your family. Thank you so much. Thank you all for joining us. Thank you for your questions.
23:18 Speaker 02 Thanks. Nice to meet you.
23:19 Oprah Winfrey? Kristy from Dubuque, Iowa, is joining us. She has a 12-year-old daughter, Piper, and son, Cole, who's 15. Kristy, I hear you're taking a few steps, you say, right now with Cole to teach him the value of a dollar. How's that going?
23:33 Speaker 03 For sure. So Cole is 15. He has started driving. He has his permit. And so he is very active as well. And so he swims a lot. He has school activities and so he's able to drive. And so we're working with him and have given him a debit card that he is able to use and utilize to get gas or fuel, potentially if he goes out to get food with friends or things of that nature. He is working. He works part-time. Occasionally throughout the year, he teaches swimming lessons. And so he does have an income that's coming in.
24:10 Oprah Winfrey? Can I just stop you right there? How important is it for kids to have a job, Mel?
24:14 Speaker 02 Very. It's very important.
24:15 Oprah Winfrey? I think if you don't have a job, how do you ever learn the value of money if you don't have a job?
24:19 Speaker 02 But you also get a great sense of value out of working and getting a paycheck. It's something that creates self-confidence.
24:27 Oprah Winfrey? Okay, so I think that's a great thing that he has a job. That's what I wanted to say.
24:32 Speaker 03 For sure. And when he got his first paycheck, kind of our rules with this, since he's got his own debit card, it's tied to my personal account, so I can kind of see what he's spending and purchasing and things of that nature. But when he got his first paycheck and he went to deposit it, I had shared with him that 80% of it has to go into his savings account and 20% can go into his spend account. The spend is fair game. He can buy whatever he would like. I don't monitor. He doesn't have to ask ahead of time.
25:01 Oprah Winfrey? You decided on the 80/20. You did.
25:03 Speaker 03 I did, yes. He didn't like that, as you can imagine, and he didn't understand for certain. I still think that's a hard concept to wrap his head around. We're able to supplement him a little bit each week with money as well. He gets a small allowance for those additional purchases, but we've been really trying to, again, push that. You have money to spend and save and, again, have, you know, that balance between the two. My question is, so he has this part-time job, but it's very intermittent, just based on activities and sports that he's in. I feel kids are pulled in so many different directions right now that there are times when he doesn't have the income coming in.
25:49 Speaker 03 So what would you suggest for parents in those situations when they don't have the income, but yet they do have the expenses that they need to pay for?
25:58 Speaker 02 Okay, I think you laid out a lot of very useful and interesting facts about how you're setting this up. I'm struck by one thing, however, I will tell you. I also with great humility say, I am not here to tell you what's right for you and your family. I'm just going to react to one thing, which is the 80/20. I think that he will feel that that is very aggressive.
26:21 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
26:21 Speaker 02 And I think that that will make him resent saving.
26:24 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
26:25 Speaker 02 And if he's already pushed back on it, is so biased towards
26:29 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
26:30 Speaker 02 the saving versus the spend. You're doing a great thing, but you might be hardening him against, and at some point, he just wants to rebel about this, rebel from this and not do it at all. That doesn't feel balanced to me.
26:42 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, I was struck by that. That's why I asked, who came up with that? Was that your idea? Because it feels off balance.
26:49 Speaker 02 Olivia, it's a little aggressive, and then therefore it puts you in the pickle on the other things about supplementing. And if he's earning it, he should be able to spend a larger portion to me. And I don't know what the absolute dollars are. That might be something you're trying to control. And that doesn't mean going out being whole hog. The other thing about it is if you went to a larger percentage, those in-between times wouldn't be a drought. You know, he actually might be able to keep himself going during those in-between times. What I don't like is when the kid has to come back to the parents constantly, I need this, I need this.
27:23 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
27:23 Speaker 02 And so then they think, you know, you're never sort of putting them on their own two feet, because they have to ask permission from you.
27:30 Oprah Winfrey? It felt off balance to me. I first thought I misheard you, because I would think saving 20%.
27:37 Speaker 02 That's what I would have thought too.
27:38 Oprah Winfrey? Saving 20%.
27:39 Speaker 02 If you had said 30, if you had said 50, I would have been doing the Hallelujah chorus. But I would, I think 20% is a bit austere.
27:47 Oprah Winfrey? Yes, yeah.
27:48 Speaker 03 So would you suggest then, instead of balancing it in that respect, you know, as you suggested, you know, maybe give him 50%, 60% of it? Supplementing maybe his savings as a parent just to help him kind of build up that savings? Or do you think that that's a totally separate tactic?
28:04 Speaker 02 You might do what I call a family match. It's like a 401k plan. So in a 401k plan, if you put in a dollar, your company might put in 50 cents up to a certain amount.
28:12 Oprah Winfrey? I really like this.
28:13 Speaker 02 You might do something like that. So I think that's better because it also teaches him, once he becomes someone who works and the company gives free money, he knows not to walk away from the free money. And if you've got money on the table, he might say, I'll pony up to that. You also could change the match based upon the percentage. So you say, okay, if you say 30%, this is what I match. If you say 50, it's even more.
28:34 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
28:34 Speaker 02 The one thing I would say, which is super important, some parents get themselves in their own financial trouble by being too aggressive with their own money. And so just making sure that whatever you do is within the means that you also feel comfortable that you can afford. And you know, from allowance to whatever it might be, the family match, whatever it is, so that you're not overextending yourself. I also want to point to the debit card, which I think is great. Everest and I are going to get her a debit card actually very soon. Because I think you need training wheels. And most parents give their kid a credit card when they leave for college. I call it a weapon of mass destruction at that point. Because now we know the credit card of a child has to be tied to the parent.
29:18 Speaker 02 You have no control over them once they leave the house. And if you haven't taught them at that point, your own credit could be affected by recklessness if they haven't been taught how to spend and what to do.
29:30 Oprah Winfrey? And we all know, I mean, the first time I got a credit card, I thought it was like free money and went immediately into debt.
29:36 Speaker 02 Me too.
29:36 Oprah Winfrey? I was a young reporter first time. Because my father had not believed in credit cards, ever.
29:40 Speaker 02 I had Amex calling me in my dorm room with bill collector. Because I went on a ski trip.
29:47 Oprah Winfrey? Wow.
29:48 Speaker 02 And I owed $2,000 to Amex. And I had so much anxiety and I was kicking myself. I was like, I can't believe I've repeated what I grew up with.
29:56 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, I took out a consolidation loan because I owed Visa $1,800 and the interest was so high, I thought I would never, ever, ever...
30:05 Speaker 02 And it felt like a million dollars, didn't it?
30:07 Oprah Winfrey? Like a million dollars. So I think, first of all, Cole is very fortunate that he has Ms. Mellody Hobson herself advocating for him. And I think what she shared with you today is going to absolutely bring a greater sense of balance to your family.
30:25 Speaker 02 And I think he'll feel better about his work.
30:27 Oprah Winfrey? I love the family match, don't you? I saw your eyes light up when you heard that.
30:30 Speaker 02 Oh, my goodness. That's brilliant. I love that so much. Thank you.
30:34 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you. Thank you, Kristy. Thank you so much. Stay with us. We're going to have more questions from parents who are looking for money advice from bestselling author and financial expert extraordinaire Mellody Hobson. We'll be right back. I'm glad you joined me. I am talking all things money, especially for parents, with bestselling author Melody Hobson. So Lindsay from Chicago has a question about giving a credit card to her seven-year-old daughter.
31:05 Speaker 04 Hi, Oprah. Hi, Melody.
31:07 Oprah Winfrey? Yes. Yeah. What do you want to say?
31:10 Speaker 04 Thank you for having me.
31:11 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah, go ahead.
31:12 Speaker 04 Yes, my daughter is seven years old. She is an only child. You know, Melody, you mentioned it. We're moving towards a cashless society. So not every place accepts actual cash anymore, and some places only accept credit cards. So, for example, when we drop our daughter off to summer camp, we want to make sure she's able to buy the snacks that she wants, and not every place takes the cash. So we were starting to contemplate when it would be appropriate to get her maybe a credit card or a debit card, and is seven years old too young?
31:46 Speaker 02 Yes. Seven years old is too young. I'm sorry.
31:50 Oprah Winfrey? Have you been listening to what you were saying earlier about cash being the best way? Because at seven years old, if you're using a credit card already, you don't even know what it is.
32:00 Speaker 02 I would take a hard line on that one.
32:02 Speaker 04 Not everywhere accepts cash.
32:04 Speaker 02 I would tell the camp.
32:05 Speaker 04 Not everywhere accepts cash.
32:06 Speaker 02 The camp cannot, I would push back on the camp, saying they should not be going to places that don't accept cash, because seven-year-old children should not have credit cards. I want to know what the other kids do. I have a quote that I use in practically everything in my life, and especially with my child. Start as you intend.
32:23 Speaker 02 Start as you intend. You do not intend for her to be waving around a credit card in that way. So it's seven years old. That is not the way to start. You want to start with her being very, very respectful of money, even if you have resources that she can take advantage of.
32:41 Oprah Winfrey? I think this is so powerful, what you're saying. At seven, maybe? Because you're able to do things for your daughter that weren't done for you. You're able to give her a life that you only dreamed of and that she gets to actually live and experience.
32:54 Speaker 02 This is, I know, easier said than done. And it's, again, it's our money habits that they're picking up.
32:59 Oprah Winfrey? Say that again, what you just said to her, Melody, about start with where you want to intend.
33:02 Speaker 02 Yeah, start where you intend. And so what do you intend for your child? You know, certain things where you look precocious and cute really wear off early. You know, when you're 22, you just look like a jerk. And so just, you know, sort of vision, envision whatever it is today.
33:19 Oprah Winfrey? The kind of woman you want her to be.
33:21 Speaker 02 Into the future. But I would say right now, just being very practical, I would implore you not to give her a credit card or a debit card for the reasons I've already mentioned. She cannot comprehend this. It's too hard. And so, you know, she's got a few more years. You know, she doesn't even have, you know, sort of advanced reasoning yet. And she might be the smartest kid ever, but it's still very hard to work these things through in your mind. And that just will not help her.
33:48 Oprah Winfrey? Okay. And were you feeling pressure because you think other parents were doing that? Or you felt like, why did you all come to that conclusion?
33:55 Speaker 04 We just, like, my husband's in finance as well. And like, we just thought, okay, maybe it's best to just kind of start teaching her the concept of the credit card and how this works to make her responsible at an early age.
34:08 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah.
34:09 Speaker 04 Yeah.
34:09 Oprah Winfrey? But I think what you're saying too, Melody, is so important, that conceptually, seven years old, you can't even, your brain won't even let you do it.
34:17 Speaker 02 No, not at all.
34:18 Oprah Winfrey? Yeah. No matter how smart she is.
34:20 Speaker 02 Yeah.
34:21 Oprah Winfrey? All right, Lindsay. Good advice today. Thank you. 21-year-old Jordan from Texas is also joining us. Jordan, I hear congratulations are in order because you recently secured a full-time job. I did. Thank you, first of all. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited to be here. And second of all,
34:40 Speaker 05 Thank you so much for the congratulations. It means a lot, especially coming from you. So, thank you.
34:46 Speaker 02 Okay, so how is the adulting going for you now?
34:49 Speaker 05 Ooh, um.
34:53 Speaker 05 Adulting is definitely way more than it seems. I have my first apartment by myself and paying rent and balancing a credit card and bills and, just like how Melody said earlier, utilities are a thing that I didn't consider. So, um, just having to balance that stuff out is, um, a bit of a learning curve, but I'm doing it. I'm grateful. And it's happening. It's a little rough, but I'm figuring it out.
35:23 Speaker 02 A little rough. What's your question for Melody?
35:25 Speaker 05 So, uh, my question for Melody is, I, like I, like you said, I am 21. I'm starting a full-time job. So, at this point, what advice would you have given to your 21-year-old self that would, for me?
35:39 Speaker 02 Wow, there's a lot there. First of all, congratulations. I have to say the same thing. Your first job, that's a big deal. And just embarking upon life, it's a very exciting time. And I don't know if that's your apartment, but if it is, that's an awful nice kitchen. For her first apartment, just FYI, and your mom would be very happy with how clean it is.
35:57 Speaker 05 Yeah, thank you.
35:58 Speaker 02 But I will say that, um, the piece of advice that I would give my younger self is advice that I knew at the time because I studied this issue, but I'd only doubled down on it, is compounding is a very powerful thing. And what I mean by that, you can start with very small amounts of money, and if you give that money time to grow, it turns into very big amounts. And so I think a lot of people think it's not even worth it to save $20 a month. It's not worth it to save $25, $10, whatever it might be. But when you do the math on that, over 40 years, you've got Thousands and thousands of dollars. And so every little bit adds up. And I would just encourage you, even with living as tightly as you probably are,
36:40 Speaker 02 find a way to forego something that doesn't make you feel totally deprived. But where if you could forego it occasionally, you could put away a little extra money. So, you know, if you get your lunch at work, one day you take a sandwich. Or two. You know, I could go down the list of those sort of things. Something that you say, "I'm gonna miss or skip this time so that I can put this money away." And then again, the magic of compounding. Warren Buffett calls it, who's one of the greatest investors of all time, the eighth wonder of the world. It really, really can make a difference. There's something, I'll just give it to you quickly so you can think about it, called the rule of 12. You may have learned that in school. So the rule of 12 says, if money compounds 12% a year,
37:25 Speaker 02 in five years it doubles. So if you have a thousand dollars and it compounds at 12%, you have 2,000.
37:31 Speaker 05 Yeah.
37:31 Speaker 02 So then you do 6%, let's even be more conservative. So it would double in 10 years. So, you know, if you had a thousand dollars in 10 years at 6%, it would double. It's a way of you thinking about money that you're putting away. And saying to yourself, and because you're so young, over a long period of time, the stock market has returned between, you know, 10% plus. That would actually be possible for you. So it's not fantastical or magical thinking. And the thing about the doubling, so let's just say it's, it's the thousand dollars that grows at 6%. That's 2,000 dollars in, in 10 years. It's 4,000 dollars in 20 years. It's 8,000 dollars in 30 years.
38:16 Speaker 05 Right.
38:16 Speaker 02 It's 16,000 dollars in 40 years. Now think about that as you were putting away money in a 401K plan. Or something like that, and you start off with 10,000. You can see how the math just gets to be so compelling.
38:28 Speaker 05 Yes, yeah.
38:29 Oprah Winfrey? So, so, you know, I, have you gotten your first paycheck yet?
38:33 Speaker 05 Um, I have. So my full-time job officially doesn't start until the fall, but I did um two internships for the last two summers at the same company. So I did get the full-time job paycheck. It was very exciting. Um, I love that you did mention about savings because my parents definitely did teach me a lot about savings.
38:52 Speaker 02 Right.
38:52 Speaker 05 So what I did was I took half of that paycheck and just put it off to the savings. Because I was still living with my parents. They still support me a lot. So I took my check, put half of it away in savings, and that's what I was just doing for each check, just putting it half away. Um, and using the rest to spend on the things I like and stuff like that.
39:11 Speaker 02 Can I give you one important point?
39:13 Speaker 05 Yes.
39:13 Speaker 02 So I gave a graduation speech um a few years ago, actually during COVID, I did a Zoom graduation speech. And I did it on something. I said, you know, no one does a commencement address about money.
39:24 Speaker 05 Yeah.
39:24 Speaker 02 That's what I did.
39:25 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
39:26 Speaker 02 And I made one comment to the graduates, and I'm going to say it to you. Select a date certain. You pick whatever date you want. You pick whatever year you want, that you will not accept another dime from your parents.
39:38 Speaker 05 Hmm.
39:39 Speaker 02 A date certain. Whatever you say, at 24, at 25, at 22, I will not accept another dime from my parents ever. It will empower you and put you on a path that I cannot explain. Now, some of us had no parents to lean on, so it wasn't a choice. It actually gave us an advantage. Because we were all we had. When you have a safety net to lean back on,
40:08 Speaker 05 Yeah.
40:08 Speaker 02 I don't think you're as rigorous as you could be. And I'm not saying that for everyone.
40:13 Oprah Winfrey? But it's true. I've experienced it over and over again. Yes.
40:16 Speaker 02 Set a date, write it on a calendar, stick it on that refrigerator, stare at it every day, and know after that day, you're not allowed to take another dollar at all. You know, it's like I used to pay for us to go out to lunch. You know, whatever it was, not, it's like, Mom, it's on me. It turned, the tables totally turned.
40:35 Oprah Winfrey? I can tell that struck you. I could see your facial expression when she said that. Why did that strike you?
40:40 Speaker 05 Yeah. It did. Um, so my parents definitely taught me a lot about independence. So even though they, like you said, they are my safety net when it comes to necessities. Everything that's a want to have is on me and even with my rent right now, they're helping me pay a portion of it. And then the rest of it is on me. But I really liked that you mentioned that because I do feel that I'm a little bit more independent than some of my peers when it comes to finances. But just that, that point right there made me really feel like, yeah, they still do help me out a lot and I'm so grateful for that. But at some point, I'm going to have to just let it go.
41:18 Speaker 05 And I don't know what date that will be, but I just, I loved that point that you made because the empowerment that you feel whenever no one else is supporting you and it's just you is.
41:28 Speaker 02 Can I give you one example because I love this so much? So I was living in my first apartment in Chicago. My second apartment, I had no furniture, none. And I just lived a very monastic life in this apartment.
41:42 Oprah Winfrey? You didn't have a kitchen like that?
41:43 Speaker 02 No, not at all. And I decided, I graduated from college in 1991 and I had a goal of having a sofa in 1996.
41:55 Speaker 02 So it's like, it's 1993, 1994, and I, this was the year that there was a presidential election. So I had this saying that I would say to my friends, couch in 96. So I'm getting a sofa, but I wanted a grown up sofa, not like a Jennifer's Convertibles. I wanted to go to the merchandise mart and buy a beautiful, real sofa where I picked fabric and the whole thing. Exactly. And I remember it was this dangia sofa and it was expensive. And I was like, I'm just going to save for this sofa. There was nothing in my apartment. It was 850 square feet. I got that sofa, I would go visit it at lunchtime. I felt so accomplished in buying that sofa.
42:39 Speaker 02 I can't tell you what I got from that, I bought it myself. So I worked a few miles away in Chicago. At lunchtime, I would go sit on my sofa. Because I was so-
42:51 Oprah Winfrey? In the merchandise mart?
42:52 Speaker 02 No, no, once it got to my house and I was able to buy it in 1996. It got delivered, there was nothing else in the room. And I would just visit the sofa during the day from work.
43:03 Oprah Winfrey? I understand that.
43:04 Speaker 02 And I was like, no one can take that away from me. I earned that sofa.
43:08 Oprah Winfrey? Yes.
43:09 Speaker 02 I gave it away at one point and I was like, that sofa means so much to me, I don't think I want to give it away.
43:13 Oprah Winfrey? But it took you from 1991 to 96.
43:16 Speaker 02 Because it was, it was a, you know, it was not a, it was several thousand dollars and, you know, it wasn't like that was something you went and did. I mean, I had to save to buy a mattress. I remember calling my mom and I was like-
43:28 Oprah Winfrey? We all remember saving to buy a mattress.
43:30 Speaker 02 The mattress was $2,000 and I said to my mother, I cannot afford this. And she was like, the per diem on that mattress is nothing. My mother, who, not book smart, she's like, you're gonna own the mattress for a long time, Melody. If you do the daily rate, it's nothing. And that sleep is really important to you.
43:49 Oprah Winfrey? Really important. So she was talking, Jordan was talking about savings. What do you think about the proportion of savings versus what you're actually spending? What should that be?
43:59 Speaker 02 Ideally, I think it's, especially at your age, this is the way I did it. You want to start with a number and every year increase it. And so instead of being absolute, just having the goal that I will do better next year than I did this year. Especially in the beginning, when you're starting a life, you've got a lot of stuff to buy.
44:16 Oprah Winfrey? Right.
44:17 Speaker 02 You need knives and pots and pans and towels and-
44:20 Oprah Winfrey? You got the first month of it and the security deposit, yes.
44:24 Speaker 02 You know, all sorts of things are just real life, so I'm trying to be realistic about that. So if you could do 5%, you know, great, but in your company 401k plan, give enough to get the match. You might not have a separate savings account outside of that. I really want you to have, though, emergency money. Because you need three to six months' living expenses if something goes wrong. And I've been saying this for years and years and years and years. And then when COVID happened-
44:51 Oprah Winfrey? I know.
44:52 Speaker 02 Like, literally, people with no income, and this idea that those people who had some emergency savings, it made a difference. So first, save to have the emergency money. Then start putting money in your 401(k) plan at work. And every year, make a commitment that you increase it. Every time I got a raise, I raised the amount I saved.
45:12 Oprah Winfrey? Ooh, I see that hit too, Jordan.
45:15 Speaker 02 I did.
45:16 Oprah Winfrey? Jordan's like the amen choir. Mm-hmm, amen. Jordan, thank you so much. You're such a lovely person. Thank you so much.
45:23 Speaker 02 Yes, congratulations.
45:24 Oprah Winfrey? Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you for being here with me. We'll be back with bestselling author and financial powerhouse, Mellody Hobson, right after this. I thank you so much for listening and for being with me here. I'm back with Mellody Hobson. So, Melody, what's your advice to everyone listening? What is the number one thing you want us to take away from priceless facts about money, from knowing about what to do with our money?
45:52 Speaker 02 You don't have to live in fear. You can take control of your life when it comes to money, even if you feel strapped. I've met people from every single walk of life, from poverty and welfare to billionaire. And at every level, I found some level of waste when it comes to money. Some level. And it could be bottled water. It could be, you know, all where I'm like, if you could just pull that back, where on the margins can you get yourself in better financial shape? I remember when I was a kid, we would go to the newsstand. We loved magazines. Think of how much money you can spend on magazines. You know, we would have been better off going to the library.
46:37 Speaker 02 The magazines would have been there. So those would be the examples of thinking through, on the margins, how you're living your life and how can you take control and take the fear out of this? The only way you can truly take the fear out is to have knowledge. The only way you can truly have knowledge is to read and ask questions. There's no way anyone should know this, because I said we didn't learn about it in school.
47:00 Oprah Winfrey? No, he didn't.
47:01 Speaker 02 So unless you grew up in a family where the stock market and money is discussed.
47:05 Oprah Winfrey? That's right.
47:05 Speaker 02 And when people talk about personal finance, I push back because that's not being financially literate. I'm not talking about how to write a check or how to pay, read a utility bill. I'm talking about how to think about things like compounding, how to make sure you're not walking away from free money in that 401K plan, how to make sure that you're thinking about the long term. All of those things are, they can be learned and they can, you can, you can teach it to yourself, but you have to make the commitment to do so.
47:35 Oprah Winfrey? No, and I think one of the, one of the most important things you've shared is that whatever your money habits are, you are passing that on to your children, whether you recognize it or not. And so you need to clean that up with yourself first. And that's why I think that Priceless Facts About Money is invaluable to adults first and then pass it on to your children. Thank you for writing this.
47:57 Speaker 02 Thank you so much for having me and for being the most amazing person that you have always been.
48:02 Oprah Winfrey? Thank you, thank you, thank you. Mellody Hobson, thank you to all of my guests zooming in with your great questions for Melody. Every family needs this book. You need this book in your house. Priceless Facts About Money. Then you put it in your house, then you give it to your auntie's house, your cousin's house. And if you're listening to this podcast, you can head over to YouTube to watch the full video. Thank you so much, Melody.
48:26 Speaker 02 Thank you.
48:28 Oprah Winfrey? That's great. You can subscribe to the Oprah Podcast on YouTube and follow us on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen. I'll see you next week. Thanks, everybody.
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