The Moth Radio Hour: Question Marks

In this hour, stories of questions—asked, answered, implied, and open-ended. From personal inquiries in professional situations to domestic decisions. This episode is hosted by Moth Senior Director Jenifer Hixson. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by The Moth and Jay Allison of Atlantic Public Media. Shahab Asta's mother questions his classroom antics. Grace Ambrose says yes to a casual relationship. Dr. Tonya Matthews considers how to respond to an uncomfortable interview question. Ladislao Loera wonders if he has what it takes to be a caregiver. Rabbinical student Aaron Potek answers tough questions. Podcast # 938

• 0:00Speaker 00

  Have you ever noticed that losing weight isn't always the hardest part? It's fighting your appetite every single day. You start with the best intentions, but then the cravings hit, and before you know it, you're reaching for snacks even when you're not really hungry. That's why I wanted to tell you about Bioma's GLP-1 Booster. It's a daily supplement designed to increase your body's natural GLP-1 production. Since GLP-1 is a hormone that helps you feel satisfied after eating, increasing your body's natural production may help you feel fuller longer, better manage cravings, and make healthier choices. What makes Bioma different is it's a science-backed formula combining prebiotics, probiotics, and postbiotics in one daily supplement designed to naturally support your body's GLP-1 production.

• 0:45Speaker 00

  It's a simple, natural approach that works with your body. If you're looking for a natural way to help manage your appetite and support healthier eating habits, visit bioma.health today to learn more about Bioma's GLP-1 Booster. That's bioma.health.

• 0:59Speaker 01

  You are more than just a heart patient. At Trinity Health of New England, we get to know you, which can help us diagnose a problem and start treatment faster. Our cardiovascular team offers the latest imaging and device technology, testing and surgical procedures you'd expect from a national health system, with the personal touch you want from local experts. We know the importance of seeing the person behind the patient, because we see all of you. Learn more at trinityhealthofne.org heart.

• 1:44Speaker 02

  This is The Moth Radio Hour. I'm Jennifer Hixson. In this episode, stories about questions, the ones we ask, the ones we don't, and what happens either way. There's a Chinese proverb that says, "He who asks a question is a fool momentarily, but he who does not ask remains a fool forever." Storytellers in this hour may or may not agree. Our first storyteller is quite young when he first steps up to question authority. This is Shahab Asta, or Habi as his mom calls him, at a Moth showcase in Chicago, where we partner with public radio station WBEZ. Here's Shahab.

• 2:28Speaker 03

  When I was a kid, I used to get in trouble from time to time. I'm sorry, can we? Can we start that over? Because when I was a kid, I used to get in trouble all the time. It's not that I was a bad kid, but I was, I was a kid. I liked to talk and play and I wanted to make people laugh. That was what was important to me. And in the first grade, I had Miss Worth. Anybody out here having Miss Worth? She was amazing. I loved me some Miss Worth. She always had candy in her pocket, sweet old lady, so nice. I love Miss Worth. Well, my mom used to get called into conferences with Miss Worth all the time. And this time, my mom says, "Miss Worth has pictures of you

• 3:11Speaker 03

  up out of your seat, just at someone's desk, talking and playing in the middle of class." And I, actually, let's take a minute, let's take a second.

• 3:20Speaker 03

  Miss Worth had pictures? This was the 80s, y'all.

• 3:26Speaker 03

  She didn't have no camera on the supercomputer slash phone chilling in her pocket? That means that Miss Worth had to come into class with a 35mm camera, take some pictures, bring it to Walgreens, drop them off, wait a week, come back later, pay $6.95, pick them up, call my mom in, and show her Exhibit A.

• 3:51Speaker 03

  If nothing else, that's dedication.

• 3:56Speaker 03

  I love Miss Worth. But my mom said Miss Worth would like cry and she would pull out her hair as she, as she told her how hard it was to get me to stop misbehaving in class. I didn't feel good about that. I didn't feel good about that. I love Miss Worth.

• 4:15Speaker 03

  She'd think I don't love Miss Worth.

• 4:19Speaker 03

  My mom, my mom was the purveyor of guilt trips though. So I didn't believe my mom, if I'm being honest. I couldn't trust my mom. I caught her slipping money under my pillow once. You ain't the tooth fairy, come on now.

• 4:34Speaker 03

  But my mom, she decided she's not gonna use the guilt trip this time. She says, "Now I'm gonna reason with this kid. I'm gonna use logic and reason." And she says, "Hobby, you're not funny."

• 4:48Speaker 03

  Yeah. "Nobody thinks you're funny. Everybody's laughing at you, nobody's laughing with you.

• 4:57Speaker 03

  Hobby, you're not funny."

• 5:05Speaker 03

  I don't know what to say to that. Man, at the time, I'm only six, but I dedicated my whole life to making people laugh. That was everything for me. That was everything.

• 5:16Speaker 03

  But I'm not funny.

• 5:18Speaker 03

  So I decided then and there

• 5:23Speaker 03

  that I needed to up the ante, y'all. Because if I was at a 10 before, I was at a 12 now. I was at everybody's desk talking about, I was like, "Uh, setup, setup, punchline. Setup, setup, timing.

• 5:35Speaker 03

  Punchline."

• 5:41Speaker 03

  People loved me. People were laughing. I had so many friends. It was good. It was good. I'm not funny.

• 5:48Speaker 03

  Fast forward many years, this is, I'm probably, I'm in my mid twenties, uh, probably like 27-ish. Um, and my mom is in the hospital, and she's always in the hospital when we're kids. So we didn't think anything of it, you know? Um, it was like Thursday, you know? Um, she was in there for a week though, and she was gonna be getting out. And she was supposed to be getting out like the next day. And you remember I, I mentioned the, the, her being, uh, uh, the purveyor of guilt trips, right? She was amazing with guilt trips. I knew I was gonna be at the receiving end if I didn't show up to the hospital and visit her.

• 6:23Speaker 03

  It was late one night, I was tired, I was sweaty and whatever, I just coming home from the gym and... I decide I gotta, I gotta go see my mom or I'm never gonna hear the end of it. So I go into, I go to the hospital, I go into her room and she's there. Also my little brother, my little sister there. And uh, my family has this thing where, it's not... We just play the dozens, right? If any of you are familiar with it, it's just where you make fun of each other. Just, just some of y'all, forgive me. They're just cracking on each other, making jokes and it's, it's never malicious and mean, it's always... This isn't one of the jokes, but it would be something along the lines of, "Your breath is so bad. If Colgate was an actual gate, I slam it shut on your mouth."

• 7:06Speaker 03

  Silly but sweet, whatever.

• 7:10Speaker 03

  Let me tell you, I did my best set that night. My little brother was rolling, my little sister la- laughing, my mom, and my mom, my mom got this loud, bellowing laugh, permeates walls, floors and doors. We were all a loud family, but she was the loudest one. Nurse came in three times, told us, "Y'all need to keep it down."

• 7:32Speaker 03

  Third time she comes in and tell us, is, you know, "It's time for y'all to go, it's, you know, visiting hours are over." And we're like, "Yeah, we get it, we're sorry," you know, whatever. And, I don't remember saying it, but I, I know, I know, I said to my mom, "Bye, I love you." Cause that's just, it's a habit of mine. And it's a habit that I, I intentionally uh, created because when my, when I was a kid, my little brother's uncle died and I couldn't remember... Yeah, he's my little brother's uncle, he's not my uncle, it's a different father, you know, that's a different story. But uh, so my little brother's uncle died and I couldn't remember the last thing I said to him and I felt really bad about that. So I decided I will always say to people that I care about, "Bye, I love you." You know? Um...

• 8:18Speaker 03

  So I know I said that. Bye, I love you.

• 8:26Speaker 03

  I'm glad I went to see my mom that night.

• 8:30Speaker 03

  Because it was the last time I saw her alive and conscious.

• 8:40Speaker 03

  About a week later, my brothers and I, my brothers, my sisters and I, there's six of us, were standing around her bed, and we're making the tough decision to let her go. And, uh, I remember I took her hand, I put it on my cheek while we're waiting for her to take her last breath.

• 9:06Speaker 03

  And I was thought of myself as a rebel.

• 9:09Speaker 03

  I don't know, maybe I was looking for acceptance, I don't know.

• 9:18Speaker 03

  About a year later, out of nowhere, I mean, apropos of nothing, you know what I mean? Just sometimes spirit comes to you when it comes to you, you know? But, uh, I'm driving and, um, I hear my mom's words in my head.

• 9:33Speaker 03

  "Hobby, you're not funny."

• 9:38Speaker 03

  "Nobody thinks you're funny." "Everybody's laughing at you, nobody's laughing with you." "Hobby, you're not funny."

• 9:50Speaker 03

  And I thought to myself...

• 9:54Speaker 03

  That's what I thought. That's not what I thought. I said, "Really, ma, I'm not funny? "'Cause I literally had you dying laughing, you literally died laughing, I, I did that! That was me!"

• 10:15Speaker 03

  And it dawned on me, for the first time in my life, I won an argument with my mom. And I could hear her laugh in my head, and it was beautiful, it was, I loved hearing it one more time, you know? Hearing her laugh.

• 10:32Speaker 03

  You don't know how much time you have. It's cliche, whatever, we're gonna do that.

• 10:39Speaker 03

  You don't know when you see someone if it's gonna be the last time you see that person.

• 10:45Speaker 03

  So when it's somebody that you care about, I'd say make it a point to, to, to...

• 10:54Speaker 03

  Make those words count. Make them meaningful, you know?

• 10:59Speaker 03

  I'm gonna leave you with...

• 11:05Speaker 03

  Bye, I love you.

• 11:16Speaker 02

  That was Shahab Habi Aska. Shahab titled this story, "There's Nothing Bigger Than the Little Things." As you could probably tell, Shahab has maintained his status as class clown well into adulthood. He does stand-up and improv around Chicago. A U.S. Army veteran, Shahab co-owns Past Tense Custom Woodworks, where I'm sure he makes all his clients crack up, too. Shahab says his mom had six kids, so six sets of eyes remember her, and they love to get together to talk about her epic laugh. To see a picture of Habi and his mom, visit themoth.org, where you can also download the

• 11:55Speaker 02

  story. Our next story is from a grand slam in Asheville, North Carolina, where we partnered with Blue Ridge Public Radio. The theme for the evening was comfort zone, and the storyteller had some questions about that. Here, live with The Moth, is Grace Ambrose.

• 12:25Speaker 04

  When you are young, divorced, and never talk about a partner, it's fun to watch people try to figure you out through a series of what they'd like to think are very casual questions. After being as elusive as I can for fun, they typically just come out and ask, "Do you date?" The phrasing of the question is funny to me. Like, "Do you run? Do you bike? Do you date?" Dating, an active verb that we try on for sport.

• 12:56Speaker 04

  This is something that I warned my friend about when he called to tell me that he too was getting a divorce. We had been friends for many, many years, but we had never had a conversation quite so personal. In the first phone call, I told him a little bit more about how my ex and I had gotten to that point. In the second phone call, he told me their version of that story. And the phone calls just kept coming. It was delightful to find camaraderie with an old friend about something that's usually so isolating. After many months of this, he said that he would love for us to spend even more time together, but that, given everything, he thought we should date casually.

• 13:37Speaker 04

  Now, being asked if I'd like to date casually is a little bit like me picking up a novel that's written in Latin and being asked how I feel about it. It might be good. It might be exactly what I'm looking for. The problem is, I have no fucking idea what it's about. Instead of telling him this, or asking a follow-up question of literally any kind, I agreed emphatically. And I agreed emphatically to casually dating, because at this point, we were talking every day, I'd known him for years, I trusted him intrinsically, and I had already told him my hardest stories. Let's just get to kissing already!

• 14:22Speaker 04

  So I followed his lead, as he taught me how to casually date. And a key thing I learned in this process is that, in order to keep it casual, one of the things you have to do is just keep telling everyone that it's casual. People would be like, "Oh my god, how's it going with that guy?" "Oh, good. You know, it's good. We're just keeping it really casual." And if you say "casual" anytime anyone says his name, then you're good. No other adjustments need to be made. In fact, other than the overuse of the word "casual," it looked quite like a real relationship. Early on, I told him I was having terrible insomnia, up every night from 1 to 3 in the morning.

• 15:06Speaker 04

  Each night after that, he would send me an audio recording of him reading from a book on evolutionary biology, so when I woke up in the middle of the night, I could be lulled back to sleep by the bore of science. Casually.

• 15:24Speaker 04

  We were long distance, but would talk on the phone for hours at a time. I got to be the person that he called in those tough, early days of divorce, which is something I'll always be proud of. We planned and took trips together, knew every minutia of each other's day-to-day lives, and were, you know, just super cash. We'd rented this little cottage in the middle of nowhere, and we were laying in the sun, listening to our oh-so-casual shared Spotify playlist of all the songs that remind us of each other. I snuggled into him, took a deep breath, and thought, "I am so in love with this man."

• 16:07Speaker 04

  "Ooh, that's not good." Because while I may not know Latin, I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to love them. What happened next was a series of terrible conversations. In the last of these, he told me that when he thinks about dating me in a real and honest way, it sparked feelings of... And per the rules of the moth, I'd like to emphasize here that this is a true and direct quote, feelings of, quote, "an impending sense of doom." We don't talk anymore.

• 16:52Speaker 04

  And I miss him. But when you take a friendship out of its comfort zone like that, it's super hard to put it back. Turns out that when you start dating someone because of that trust, and friendship, and camaraderie, and vulnerability shared, that is exactly what you miss the most in the end. These days, when I wake up at 1:00 in the morning, I roll over, turn on my light, and take out my book on evolutionary biology. That shit's fascinating. But no, the answer to the question is that I do not date. I do not know Latin.

• 17:33Speaker 04

  And the only difference between him and me is that I know that about myself. Thank you.

• 17:49Speaker 02

  That was Grace Ambrose. She says she continues to learn her lessons, one dramatic scene at a time. These days, she's much more likely to be found hosting parties for a gaggle of children, or traveling around the world solo than making playlists with a man. She's a social science researcher and a huge fan of storytelling.

• 18:15Speaker 02

  In a moment, a situation where endless questions are unavoidable, the job interview, when The Moth Radio Hour continues.

• 18:27Speaker 05

  The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts.

• 18:36Speaker 06

  Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder on yourself with dozens of disconnected apps? If you ever feel like you need one tool for sales, another for inventory, and a completely different system for accounting, you know how quickly that list can spiral out of control. When your software causes more stress than success, it's time to simplify your workflow with Odoo. Odoo is an all-in-one, fully-integrated platform that handles everything your business needs, from CRM and accounting to e-commerce and HR, all in one place. Instead of paying for a stack of expensive software platforms, Odoo gives you every tool required to manage your operations for a fraction of the cost. It's completely customizable, incredibly easy to use, and scales right alongside your company, whether you're launching a startup or managing an established enterprise. Stop juggling endless logins and start streamlining your entire operation so you can get back

• 19:21Speaker 06

  to focusing on what actually matters: growing your business. Thousands of businesses have already made the switch. Why not you? Try Odoo for free today at Odoo.com. That's O-D-O-O dot com. Buy smart, drive for less, and trade for more. That's Toyota affordability, and it all starts with a great deal from your local Toyota dealer. Make a smart buy on an all-wheel-drive Camry, Corolla Cross, or get a Corolla sedan, packed with the latest features, advanced tech, and head-turning style. Take a test drive in two of Toyota's most popular SUVs, the spacious, family-friendly Gran Highlander. And adventure-ready RAV4. And with so many hybrid and plug-in hybrid models available across the lineup, plus efficient all-electrics like the BZ, BZ Woodland, and all-wheel-drive CHR, you can drive your way and skip the pump.

• 20:06Speaker 06

  And long after you leave the lot, your Toyota keeps delivering with legendary resale value, built on a reputation for quality and reliability. So when it's time for your next Toyota, you could trade in for more. From a great deal today to a great value tomorrow, a Toyota is right for you. Shop toyota.com for deals and details, or stop by your local Toyota dealer today. Toyota, let's go places.

• 20:29Speaker 07

  Hectic mornings are not the time for complicated outfits, and that's why I love Quince. And I think for the holidays, Quince Staples are a gift I'd like to give to my other busy friends and family. They specialize in elevated everyday essentials, made with premium materials, including organic cotton, premium stretch denim, and Mongolian cashmere. My current favorite is their Mongolian cashmere crew neck in heather gray. It's simple perfection that keeps me warm. They are the perfect gift for yourself, or for the people in your life. Their Mongolian cashmere sweaters start at an unbelievable $50, making them, alongside 14-karat gold jewelry and cozy cashmere gloves, the easiest way to spoil someone on your list. Give the gift of quality this holiday season. Download

• 21:12Speaker 07

  the Quince app for app-exclusive offers, or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. And when Quince asks you where you heard about them, let them know it was The Moth. It's the best way to support the show.

• 21:32Speaker 02

  This is The Moth Radio Hour. I'm Jennifer Hixson, and we're hearing stories that involve questions. Our next one was told at the Charleston Music Hall, where we had help from our friends at South Carolina Public Radio. Dr. Tonya Matthews is an important voice in Charleston, and here she is live at The Moth.

• 22:06Speaker 07

  Okay. Picture this. Medium-sized conference room, and I am sitting at the head, or maybe the foot, of a medium-sized conference room table. The setting is classic, right? Crown molding, low light, single window, books and awards on the shelves, newspaper cutouts celebrating the accolades of this institution that I'm sitting at. Across from me at the table, three white men. Classic. Okay. So I am in the final stages of my first executive interview process for a museum. I'm competing to be the vice president. If I get it, I will be leading three museums,

• 22:51Speaker 07

  three research centers. My division alone will have more than 100 staffers at this institution whose annual budget challenges the $20 million mark. It's endowed, it's got a centuries-long history, and I will be the only of two ever African-American executives. In fact, I would be the first African-American female executive, and potentially the youngest executive they have ever hired. All right. So. The first gentleman is the would-be boss, right? So he is the CEO, if I get the job. The other two gentlemen in the room at the table are, shall we say,

• 23:35Speaker 07

  critical stakeholders in the work that I will be doing if I am successful at getting the position. And this is what you need to understand about executive interview processes. One, they are very, very long. But the longer you stay in there, the more interested they are in you. Two, if you ever make it to the room with the big dogs, you are in the running. Them's the big dogs, I'm in the running. Let's do this. All right. So it's been a very long We are coming to the end of this day, but the energy is still high. The interview has gone really well. The repartee has been good. And I'm already working on my concluding remarks in my head.

• 24:18Speaker 07

  Okay, so then we begin the dance of the conclusion of the interview. And one of the gentlemen says, you know, "Thank you, Dr. Matthews. We were so excited to have you in this process." Classic, standard, yada, yada, yada. And we are excited to see that you are also as interested in us as we are in you. Classic, standard, yada, yada, yada. And then he turns to his colleagues and he said, "But I also want to share with the group that I have done some of my own independent research on Dr. Matthews. And I have found out a few cool new facts about her."

• 24:54Speaker 07

  Not classic, not standard. Dear God, Google, what have you done? Okay. So I'm wondering where we're going with this. And the gentleman continues. He says, "So I have discovered that Dr. Matthews is a poet. One of those performing poets. You know, they call them spoken word artists. So please understand that at this time and period, this is the rise of the era of slam poetry, competition poetry. Def poetry jam is on the television. Poets are loud and challenging the status quo in every other verse." This is what he's talking about. And he says, "Well, but you know, I mean, I like what she is doing so much better than

• 25:37Speaker 07

  some of this other stuff that I've been hearing lately. Her work just seems so much more nuanced and intelligent and articulate."

• 25:48Speaker 07

  And he goes on, you know, making it clear that he prefers this. And I'm thinking, you know what? I'm gonna let this left turn just wash off my shoulder and get back to practicing my concluding remarks, and then we'll be good. We'll be good to go. But then after he finishes sharing all of this with his colleagues at the table, he turns to me and he says, "So, you know, Dr. Matthews, given all of this, I was thinking how wonderful it would be. Would you mind closing out our interview today by reciting some of your poetry for us?"

• 26:25Speaker 07

  I have always been good at hearing the question behind the question. It's one of the reasons I'm good at school. It's not just about understanding the material. It's about understanding the particular answer that the teacher actually wants. And so I was listening, and I heard the question behind the question. And to my read and my understanding, the question was not, would I recite a poem? The question was, would I perform? Luckily for me, I had figured out my answer to this question about 10 years earlier in a raucous debate about Bill Clinton and black people.

• 27:08Speaker 07

  I was a freshman at Duke University when Bill Clinton first got elected president. And sometime shortly after the election, I'm wandering through my dorm, and I overhear a conversation between two of my classmates. Male classmate, female classmate, both happened to be white. The gentleman is in a complete tizzy because he has decided that since Bill Clinton went on to the Arsenio Hall Show and played the saxophone, all the black people voted for Bill Clinton. And so now Bill Clinton owes the entire election to black people. And to pay them back, he is gonna have to fill the White House and all of his cabinet with a whole bunch of black people.

• 27:50Speaker 07

  My female classmate thinks this entire premise is absolutely ridiculous. And she says, okay, okay, okay, okay. So let's say that's true, what difference does that make? He can just hire a bunch of qualified black people to fill all those positions, and the country can just keep moving on. To which he replies, no, no, that won't work. There aren't that many qualified black people to fill all those positions. And this is when my female classmate catches me out of the corner of her eye. And she said, ah, look, there's Tanya. What about Tanya? We just elected her president of our freshman thing, and even you didn't have a problem with that? He could just fill the White House with people like her.

• 28:34Speaker 07

  Without missing a beat, my male classmate says, no, that doesn't make sense. That's not right. Tanya is different. She is not like everyone else. Tanya doesn't count. That, of course, is when I got into the conversation.

• 28:50Speaker 07

  Laced up my tennis shoes and everything.

• 28:55Speaker 07

  What had happened as I stepped into the conversation was an amalgamation of a lot of things. And as I spent several hours in this debate with these two of my classmates, I went through all the sensations, from hurt, to anger, to guilt, to finally, epiphany. See, I was raised with the cultural concept of black excellence. This is excellence with a tinge of responsibility. Black excellence is about understanding that your excellence is not yours alone. It's about understanding why you must be excellent, which is code for,

• 29:36Speaker 07

  you grow up, you do good, you do well, people will see you, they will change their mind about you, and when they change their mind about you, they're gonna change their mind about all black people. This, yeah, right, you too? So if you are a certain kind of kid on a certain kind of trajectory, and you have a certain kind of grandma, you have had this conversation. A nice little "to whom much is given, much is expected", shattered with a dose of heaps of all of the sacrifices that were made to get you to that point. But the sacrifices aren't the point, the impact is. And what had happened, when that gentleman told me that I didn't count, a lot of that shattered, right?

• 30:20Speaker 07

  Because apparently, me just showing up and being in his world didn't change the way he thought about all black people. Yes, it changed the way he thought about Tanya, but I had simply become his exception to the rule. And that's when I started to understand the gravity of the situation. That was the moment I decided I was not going to walk away from that or any other conversation. I was raised not to be the exception to the rule, I was raised to change the rule.

• 31:01Speaker 07

  I was not naive enough to think that I could change his whole worldview. But I do think I managed to sow in a seed or two of doubt into his perspective. Just as he had sowed a seed of a new realization into my perspective. See, I was at Duke University, living the dreams of my ancestors. I was showing up and showing out every day, all day, on the day by instinct. Right? I was raised to do this. But what I was understanding is, you don't change the world by moving through it instinctually.

• 31:42Speaker 07

  You change the world by moving through it intentionally. And that when I decided to stay standing in that conversation and debate, there was no difference between that decision and when I decided to stay sitting in that conference room chair and recite a poem.

• 32:06Speaker 07

  The first line of the poem that I recited was, "Jesus is a 12-year-old black girl with pigtails from Greenmount Avenue."

• 32:18Speaker 07

  The poem was called Lazarus. It was an extended metaphor about a little black girl trapped inside an urban environment, suffering through the American institutionalizations that would keep her there, and she is working to save her father from death row. The reception to the poem was contemplative.

• 32:42Speaker 07

  If you are ever asked to perform in an interview, and you choose to do so, do so intentionally. It is the only outcome that you can control. Now arguably, someone who looks like me that spends time in spaces like that will always be required to do some level of performance, but that is not the point. The point is about how we choose to show up. FYI, I got the job.

• 33:19Speaker 07

  And it turns out that the gentleman who asked the poetry question, well, that was my CEO. And I stayed in conversation with him through all of those years. And to the point where to this day, we are now the best of colleagues. And he is one of my strongest sponsors in my career as a museum professional.

• 33:45Speaker 07

  And so it turns out that Black Excellence does a lot of things. He even sent me a birthday card a couple of days ago. Fun final fact. In preparing to tell this story, I was using my AI assistant to read through my drafts. Forgot to say I'm an engineer. Yeah, I love AI. Yeah. So I'm using my AI assistant to read through the drafts of this story. And the AI, doing its own thing, is summarizing the key takeaways. And I kid you not, one of the written out key takeaways was Tanya decides to stand her ground, define herself, and because of this, probably does not get the job.

• 34:27Speaker 07

  So it turns out that not only does Black Excellence know how to change the rules, it also knows how to break the algorithm.

• 34:45Speaker 02

  That was Dr. Tonya Matthews. She's now president and CEO of the International African American Museum in Charleston. Side note, her former boss was one of the references that helped her get the job.

• 35:00Speaker 02

  The museum is located at the historically sacred site of Gadsden's Wharf, the former port where nearly half of the enslaved Africans brought to the United States first landed. In addition to being a published poet, Dr. Matthews is also the founder of the STEMONISTA Project, a movement to engage girls in their futures with STEM careers.

• 35:23Speaker 02

  To see a picture of Dr. Matthews at the museum, visit themoth.org, where you can also download the story.

• 35:35Speaker 02

  Ever get a question that stopped you in your tracks? Or maybe, an especially harrowing job interview? We want to hear about it. Please call the Moth pitch line and leave us a one to two minute message with the relevant details. We listen to all the pitches and maybe one day, you'll end up on one of our stages and later, on the Moth Radio Hour. Don't be shy. You can pitch us a story right on our site, or call 877-799-MOTH. That's 877-799-MOTH. We hope to hear from you.

• 36:11Speaker 02

  In a moment, a man questions whether he has what it takes to be a caregiver. And a rabbi in training fields an inquiry that is way over his head, when the Moth Radio Hour continues.

• 36:27Speaker 05

  The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts.

• 36:35Speaker 06

  Today's episode is brought to you by Vinted. We've all got that designated chair or corner in the bedroom piled high with clothes we keep telling ourselves we'll definitely wear, but never actually do. My pile has reached critical mass, and it's past time for decisive action. Declutter, or bust. Thankfully, I just learned about Vinted. A secondhand marketplace app that makes it easy to give your pre-loved fashion a second life, and earn some extra cash in the process. Snapping photos and listing my pieces on Vinted can fit right into my afternoon routine without any hassle. The whole process is simple. Once an item sells, Vinted creates the prepaid shipping label for you, taking all the headache out of shipping things out. And there are no seller fees, so every bit of profit goes straight into your bank account,

• 37:19Speaker 06

  instead of being eaten up by hidden costs. You can refresh your wardrobe and make room in your closet at the same time, an all-around win. Give your clothes a second life with Vinted. Download the Vinted app for free to start selling with no seller fees, so you keep everything you earn.

• 37:37Speaker 01

  This is the sound of captivity. This is the sound of rescue. And this is the sound of freedom. Give Armenia's captive bears a second chance by supporting International Animal Rescue. Call 508-826-1083 or search The Great Bear Rescue to learn more.

• 38:05Speaker 02

  This is the Moth Radio Hour. I'm Jennifer Hixson. Some of the toughest questions you'll ever encounter are internal. Can I do this? Do I have what it takes? Our next storyteller, Lottie Loera, had to wrestle with a few. He told this at the Miami Grand Slam, where we partner with public radio station WLRN. Here's Lottie.

• 38:32Speaker 03

  I am not a fan of scatological humor. I find it to be kind of tasteless. In my family, we were not raised to talk about bodily functions. If anyone happened to pass gas and we were all in a room together, everyone just stared forward and no one talked about anything at all. Then I met Chris. Fart jokes, poop jokes, whoopee cushions, he thought they were hilarious. And I admired his braveness. And while I was never able to take part of those jokes with him, I did fall in love with him. Today, Chris and I are headed to the hospital.

• 39:14Speaker 03

  He's about to have several more feet of his insides cut out, and because of this, the doctors have decided to also install a colostomy. They whisk him off to surgery, and they send me to another room to watch a video about the colostomy, which I think is weird because I'm not sure why I'm going to be that involved. It's Chris's colostomy after all. But... As I'm watching the video, I noticed that everything is being done to and for the person with the colostomy by a pair of disembodied floating hands, from my perspective. Oh no, am I the person that's in charge of this? Am I the one that has to empty the bags and clean the scrotum?

• 39:57Speaker 03

  Am I supposed to be doing all this myself? This is all kind of icky. And shouldn't someone have told me this was happening? I mean, no one even mentioned this to me at all. This seems like a lot to be taking on right now at this last minute. The surgery goes well, and that night they wheel in a cot for me so that I can spend the night in the hospital with Chris. Sometime past midnight, Chris wakes up screaming, "Get a nurse!" So I run to the hallway and say, "Something's wrong, please come help." And two nurses come running in.

• 40:41Speaker 03

  It turns out that Chris had managed to dislodge his colostomy bag as it was erupting. So he's all soiled on the left side of his body in bed. The nurses start cleaning him up, and I can only imagine how disconcerting it must be for Chris to wake with a new orifice on his body that he has no control over and is going to do whatever it wants to, regardless of whether he wants to or not. And I look at him, and his face is all twisted, and it's twisted with the indignity of the situation.

• 41:22Speaker 03

  It's twisted with the knowledge that this is our life now. It's twisted with the realization that things are not going to get better. And he starts to cry. The nurses are cleaning him up, and they have no idea what to do in this situation. And I am still dealing with the horror that this is going to be my job when we get back home. I don't have time for a crying Chris right now, so I yell at him, "Hey, shit happens!"

• 42:01Speaker 03

  Chris whiplashes his head at me. "Did you just make a poop joke?"

• 42:09Speaker 03

  "Yes, I did."

• 42:12Speaker 03

  Chris turns to the nurse that is closest to him, and he is glowing with pride. "16 years together, and that is his first ever poop joke."

• 42:27Speaker 03

  Chris then lets out this giant laugh, and I cannot help myself. I start laughing right along with him. And the nurses are looking at each other, trying to decide, "What is going on here?" But there's too much joy. They start laughing with us too. And I know in that instant, this hospital room is the happiest place in this entire hospital complex.

• 42:51Speaker 03

  As the laughter subsides, I go to stand next to the lead nurse as she starts to train me for my new job.

• 43:03Speaker 03

  And I look at Chris, and he is not sad.

• 43:09Speaker 03

  Because he knows that I will do anything and everything I can for him.

• 43:16Speaker 03

  And I have learned that I am more capable than I ever thought possible. I have learned that sometimes biological functions are humorous.

• 43:30Speaker 03

  And I've learned that love...

• 43:35Speaker 03

  Love has a weird way of making itself known.

• 43:42Speaker 03

  Even in the crappiest of circumstances.

• 43:56Speaker 02

  That was Ladi Loera. Ladi is a native Texan who calls Austin home and runs a storytelling show called Testify. Ladi sent me this update on his story. Chris was given a year to live when diagnosed, but stayed around for four years instead. He passed away in August of 2010. I told him stories about our pets and held his hand as he died.

• 44:22Speaker 02

  Ladi says he's a fan of the world but doesn't want to explore. His idea of traveling the globe is going down a new aisle at the grocery store. Ladi was lucky enough to find love again, and he's now happily remarried. To see a picture of Ladi and his first husband, Chris, visit themoth.org, where you can also download the story.

• 44:50Speaker 02

  Our final story was told in New York City, where WNYC is a media partner of The Moth. Questions are a big part of the story, as are the answers. Here's Aaron Kote.

• 45:04Speaker 06

  So I'm accompanying the dean of my rabbinical school to a college campus to help him do some recruiting. We divvied up the roles. He would give the inspiring talk, and I would drive him back home. That's how that works. So it was actually, it was an interesting talk that he gave. He talked about how religious Jewish law, or halacha, actually comes from the same word as path, and how the law should really be a path to God. Afterwards, a student raises her hand and asks, "Is there a law that you feel isn't on the path to God?" And I'm thinking, wow, that's a tricky question. Thank God I'm not up there. At which point he says, "Aaron, come on up here and answer this question."

• 45:52Speaker 06

  So there I am in front of a bunch of college students who are just a few years younger than me. I have no idea what I should say, what I could say. So I take a risk and I say, "Actually, I'm kind of bothered by Leviticus 1822, the law that prohibits gay sex. I'm not gay myself, but I feel like that's not really helping anyone connect to God." And I sit back down.

• 46:22Speaker 06

  And the rabbi moves on. He doesn't talk about that and doesn't ask me to come up for another question. That was cool.

• 46:33Speaker 06

  Six months later, I'm the scholar in residence at a conference in Washington DC for Jewish college students from across the country. And a student comes up to me and says that he'd like to speak to me. And so I say, "Okay." We sit down. I figure I probably offended him with something I said because I'm so radical.

• 46:58Speaker 06

  So we sit down. And actually, I was shocked because he comes out to me. And he's an Orthodox guy and he's struggling with how to reconcile these seemingly incompatible identities that he's holding. And Orthodoxy has not been great to gay people, to say the least. And I'm kind of curious why he's trusting such personal and sensitive information with me, the guy who's decided to make a life out of promoting and defending this world. And I ask him why he told me. And he said that six months ago, he was at that talk and that my answer about Leviticus 1822 somehow identified me as an ally.

• 47:43Speaker 06

  And he was hoping that I might be able to give him something that other Orthodox rabbis and leaders haven't been able to give him. And I was kinda stuck because the truth is, there really is nothing I could say. I can't just say, "Oh, ignore that verse. Don't worry about that one." He was coming to me as an Orthodox Jew and we both believed that the Torah, the Bible, was written by God, every part of it, and to reject a verse would be to deny a fundamental part of our identity. But at the same time, to just tell him that God discriminates against him for the way that God made him, that was troubling for both of us.

• 48:27Speaker 06

  Now, this wasn't the first time that I was in completely over my head. I've counseled married couples on their sex life and I've never had sex myself. I hear it's great.

• 48:45Speaker 06

  But something about this guy's...

• 48:50Speaker 06

  It's real. Laugh at my life, it's great.

• 48:58Speaker 06

  But something about this guy's question was particularly troubling and challenging for me, because I knew he wasn't just asking about Leviticus 18:22. He was lonely, he was hiding his identity from his community. And he needed to believe that somehow in the end, even though it seemed impossible, he'd be able to hold on to these religious values and it would all be okay, he'd find love in that community. And it was so hard because that tapped into a deep insecurity of my own. All I've wanted my whole life is to be in a healthy, loving relationship, but despite working so hard towards that goal, at that point, I had nothing to show for it. And I was wondering if God really cared about me finding love.

• 49:43Speaker 06

  I felt like sometimes it might be easier to just throw away all these laws that felt so inhibiting and just, maybe that way I could find love. But this wasn't the time to talk about my problems. If you think you've got it bad, let me tell you.

• 50:01Speaker 06

  So I shut it down and I was there. I tried to help him. I said, "Listen, I don't know what to tell you. I don't know why God would make a law like this, but I do know that God wants you to find love and that the God that we believe in can be present in a gay relationship just as much as he can be present in a straight relationship and that, I don't know, that him and his future partner will figure out how to bring in all these religious Jewish values that he has into his relationship. And I left and I wondered if maybe I should have told him to just leave Orthodoxy, but I didn't. And about a month ago, I got a call from him. He wanted to talk. I was like, "Okay, great. What is it this time?"

• 50:48Speaker 06

  We hadn't spoken since that last conversation and he wanted to tell me that he wanted to thank me for that conversation that we had had. He was now in a relationship with another Orthodox guy and because of our conversation, he was able to believe that love was possible for him. I asked him if God was present in his relationship and he said, "Yes."

• 51:15Speaker 06

  And he said that he was happy for the first time in a long time. And I hung up the phone and I just started crying. It was really awkward, I was driving.

• 51:27Speaker 06

  Windshield wipers cannot wipe away these tears.

• 51:35Speaker 06

  But I cried because I was just so overwhelmed by irrationality. It didn't make any sense, like how my one little throwaway line over a year ago had led to this moment. How an Orthodox rabbi-to-be had counseled another Orthodox guy into a gay relationship.

• 51:53Speaker 06

  How someone who had serious doubts about the existence of love was able to help someone else believe in it. None of it made any sense, but somehow through that irrationality, I reconnected to my faith. A faith in myself, a faith in... Thank God and the faith that I too would find love one day. Thank you.

• 52:24Speaker 02

  That was Aaron Potek. He serves as the senior rabbi at a place called Sixth and I, which is a center for arts, entertainment, ideas, and Jewish life in Washington DC. He reports that he's been dating someone special for the last few years and has even brought her to a Moth Story Slammer too. To see a picture of Aaron giving a sermon and another one of him officiating his first gay wedding, Mazel Tov to all, visit themoth.org.

• 52:58Speaker 02

  You can share these stories or others from the Moth archive and buy tickets to Moth storytelling events in your area through our website, themoth.org. Find a show near you and come out to tell a story. And you can find us on social media too, of course.

• 53:17Speaker 02

  Remember, you can pitch us your story by recording it right on our site, themoth.org, or call 877-799-MOTH. That's 877-799-6684. The best pitches are developed for Moth shows all around the world.

• 53:45Speaker 02

  I want to thank all the tellers in this hour and encourage everyone to be inquisitive because there are a lot of great stories out there, just begging to be told. If only you'd ask. That's it for this episode of the Moth Radio Hour, and we hope you'll join us next time.

• 54:12Speaker 05

  This episode of The Moth Radio Hour was produced by me, Jay Allison, and Jennifer Hixson, who also hosted and directed the stories in the show. Co-producer is Vicky Merrick, associate producer Emily Couch. The rest of The Moth's leadership team includes Sarah Haberman, Christina Norman, Sarah Austin Jenness, Kate Tellers, Marina Kluch, Leanne Gully, Suzanne Rust, Sarah Jane Johnson, and Patricia Uraina. Moth stories are true, as remembered and affirmed by the storytellers. Our theme music is by The Drift. Other music in this hour from Dewali and Philippe Boudot, Victor Kraus, Adam Ben Ezra, Felix Le Bond, and

• 54:55Speaker 05

  Croca. We receive funding from the National Endowment for the Arts. The Moth Radio Hour is produced by Atlantic Public Media in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. Special thanks to our friends at Odyssey, including executive producer Leah Reese Dennis. For more about our podcast, for information on pitching us your own story, and to learn all about The Moth, go to our website, themoth.org.

• 55:38Speaker 06

  With over 600 live events each year, plus the production of our storytelling workshops and The Moth Radio Hour and podcast, it takes a lot to keep The Moth moving. And the other day, I was browsing the Vistaprint site, and I thought, Vistaprint can be an incredible resource for us. We can use Vistaprint to customize banners for our stage backdrop. Walking into an event where your signage matches your merch instantly gives you that polished, established look that we love. Vistaprint gives you so much more than what you paid for, offering top-tier quality that makes your business look like a million bucks without blowing your budget. Plus, with real people and intuitive tools ready to help you nail every design detail, you get complete assurance from Start to finish.

• 56:20Speaker 06

  There's a real reason over 17 million small businesses rely on Vistaprint to elevate their brand. Vistaprint, print your possible. Right now, new customers get 20% off with code NEW20 at Vistaprint.com. That's 20% off at Vistaprint.com using code NEW20.